### Apollo BBS Archive - July 26, 1987

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    Message: 1625
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: fights
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 06:53:20

    Me in a leather jacket??
    That would be quite a concept.
    I imagine a leather jacket swung in someone's face could
    become quite bothersome.
    Nahh, I wasn't in Tempe.  I was in Sunnyslope.
    Someone thought that I had some money that belonged to him
    and I didn't.  He made some bad bets and I guess he didn't want
    to pay. He shouldn't bet on something unless he is sure that it will pay.
    Oh well.

    Message: 1626
    Author: $ Laura Lansberry
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ART
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:39:12

             ___________________________________
            O_______________________            \
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            O_______________________\|            \
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            O______________________________________|

    Anything is possible on an ARTBOARD if you try. And if I post something and
    somebody criticizes it ... let them do better if they can. Hey Ann, do I do
    bad work? Acceptable right? Challenege ... if an ARTBOARD goes up I'll make
    some entries and if anyone can do better I will let them call me names for
    an hour.
    Seriously, sounds like fun. Besides since I can't afford to keep 5 grand
    tied up in a BBS where else can I post ... how do you do uploads here? Hmmmm
    have to figure that out to save user time. Bye for now!

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    Subject:LAST

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     1:Nice work.  Check this out.
     2:
     3:                         () ()
     4:                           /
     5:                          ===
     6:end

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    Message: 45359
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 04:50:12

    Though you may be a biblical scholar of sorts, you seem ignorant to many of
    the problems people have with a belief in God.

    Much of what you present here is defense to accuracy of scripture. Assuming
    for a moment that you are correct in your position, we are still left with a
    number of unpleasant irregularities with which to contend. For example, we
    are expected to have unshakeable faith in God and His motives. We are to
    believe that we are provided with free will, and that we choose our destiny.
    Yet, through the course of our lives, we are constantly confronted by the
    ravages of disease, famine, old age, and natural disaster. None of these are
    entirely within our control, but we are expected to have faith in God and
    His reasons for allowing such catastrophies in life.

    How are we to keep faith in God as an all-loving entity? Love from one's
    creator must seem so distant in the mind of a 12 year old leukemia victim.

    Message: 45360
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick Ianuzzi
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 08:29:06

    I appreciate your comments.  I hope you realize that I cannot deal with
    every topic - there are far more questions than time in the day to answer
    them all.  Also, I need to deal with the topics as raised.  Many have
    attacked (or questioned to use less abrasive language) the validity and
    accuracy of the Bible.  As a Christian, I am a person of the Book.  My
    system is based on that volume and its teachings.  Therefore, I must needs
    refer to it and explain it if what I am saying is going to make any sense.
        Now, I am not ignoring the questions you bring up - I just haven't had
    dinner with anyone lately who brought it up!  I'm just running out the door
    right now to go to church, so I will have to take some time this afternoon
    and reply to your post.  Its not easy to do in this mode of communication,
    you know?  As Burkhart mentioned to me, you can't put intonations and facial
    expressions into anything at 1200 BAUD, and that decreases the efficiency of
    the communication.  It also tends (from what I've observed) to make each
    person seem more harsh and angry than he/she really is.  I guess that is one
    of the short-falls of BBSing.
    James>>>

    Message: 45361
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Jim White
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 08:49:06

            Muscles bunched at the corners of my jaw as I ground my teeth.
    "Listen, Jim, pulling my status, or non-status into this is just the sort of
    thing I've come to expect from bigotted, narrow-minded Christians like you.
    ucko, you're not going to let yourself get pinned down.  Ultimately I can
    see this discussion coming down to a point where if I deliver a logical
    argument, as I have repeatedly, you'll slime out claiming 'That's not my
    definition of Christianity...'  As a matter of fact I do have a scholarly
    background in history and I know the Bible rather well.  I know that book
    can be quoted anyway you want it to be.  I also happen to know most RATIONAL
    bible scholars agree that the gospels were written, perhaps from eye-witness
    accounts, but were written at least 20 years after the Christs death.  Hell,
    Time carried an article last year about scholars arguing about which gospel
    was written first, and the were knocking the year 70 AD around.
            But, I don't expect you to acknowledge that idea, and you'll poo-poo
    it if I call it a fact.  You need the bible to back everything up, and if it
    contradicts another source, that source is wrong."
            I stared hard at him.  "You and I both know, for example, there is
    not documentary evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust, but, I
    hope, neither one of us doubts it ever took place.  We know Homer quoted and
    cited historical occurances in the Oddessey, but neither of us, coming from
    a Judeo-Christian background, is going to suggest Apollo and other Greek
    Gods exist.  The difference between us, Jim White, is that I didn't have a
    double handful of brains scooped out when I decided to  form a relationship
    with God.  You limit your saviour, and you disgust me."

    Message: 45362
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Joy/Sorrow
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 09:32:04

    When I said there could be no joy without sorrow, I meant no one would know
    what joy was. Everything has an oppsite. If everthing was the same, as in an
    all blue world, life would be pretty dull.
    We all want the good times without the bad. Me enclued. But the bad times
    are when we learn the most. Remember the first time you got burn! That was
    painfull wasn't it? You don't need another lesson that when something is
    very hot, don't touch! You might say that lesson is burned into your memory!
    Ouch!

                                                      <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 45363
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Joe Bottmomlee
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 10:37:37

    I agree with you when you said that "we learn the most when things are
    bad"!! Such as - when a child gets burnt - he usually learns that if he does
    it again, it'll hurt again etc. etc. We all have that learning process - but
    what about some - lets say unexplained bad times with seemingl no reasons!!
    Like - a child with terminal cancer? - an old person whos body has betrayed
    them and suffer daily pain from cateracts, arthritis, bad stomach, general
    dibilitation - NOT through any fault of their own. Now don't come back and
    tell me that if they had taken care of themselves, they probably wouldn't
    have those problems. THATS NOT TRUE!! I know of many old people that have
    thoughly taken care of themselves and still ended up like the above! That is
    a falicy cooked up by the health fad people. People are heathier today
    because their parents were healthier is all. Your gonna die no matter what.
    Anyway - thats getting off the subject --- Do you believe that God gives
    these above mentioned people those problems? -- ANN ---

    Message: 45364
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 11:24:27

    I swore I wouldn't get into this - but Nick Ianuzzi DID make a point. I know
    you are answering questions put to you, but don't you have time for more
    cold hearted facts James. (OOPS - here I go again folks with "facts"!) Your
    only arguing the Bible as text - as a historical fact etc. etc. It doesn't
    make sense that God punishes us as He does - like original sin - old age -
    cancer ----! I might be made to understand that Paul was converted on the
    road to Damascus - but I certainly do not aree with alot he said. Lets talk
    about that! If the Bible is so acruate - why so many contridictions? Now
    don't tell me it takes a learned preacher to explain the Bible. That does't
    make a bit of since that God would create the Bible and then have a chosen
    few tell everyone else what it means! Lets talk about that! Why is God so
    secretive? Why doesn't He reveal himself? We certainly need Him now more
    than ever. Lets talk about that! And John and Revelations!! I'm I suppose to
    live in fear because of what he said? It sounds like he was either on
    something or had a bad dream!! The Bible is supppose to be God's word. I
    only see man's word mixed up in there. Lets talk about that! I'm not
    attacking you James - these are questions many ask of a preacher and if we
    get Biblical responses - how can you help? Especially if we only at best -
    half believe the Bible? With all your responses to Rod and the others, you
    havn't made me at least understand anything. I admire and respect your
    beliefs - thats all fine and good, but you are not teaching so far - only
    defending. OF course, I am assumning you wnat to teach. So come down a bit
    to us floundering ones huh?? I'm interested. --- ANN ---

    Message: 45365
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 12:05:24

    ...
      Statistically, the probability of any one of us being here
    is so small that you'd think the mere fact of existing would
    keep us all in a contented dazzlement of surprise.  We are
    alive against the stupendous odds of genetics, infinitely
    outnumbered by all the alternates who might, except for
    luck, be in our places.
      Even more astounding is our statistical improbability in
    physical terms.  The normal, predictable state of matter
    throughout the universe is randomness, a relaxed sort of
    equilibrium, with atoms and their particles scattered around
    in an amorphous muddle.  We, in brilliant contrast, are
    completely organized structures, squirming with information
    at every covalent bond.  We make our living by catching
    electrons at the moment of their excitement by solar
    photons, swiping the energy released at the instant of each
    jump and storing it up in intricate loops for ourselves.  We
    violate probability, by our nature.  To be able to do this
    systematically, and in such wild varieties of form, from
    viruses to whales, is extremely unlikely; to have sustained
    the effort successfully for the several billion years of our
    existence, without drifting back into randomness, was nearly
    a mathematical impossibility.
      Add to this the biological improbability that makes each

    Message: 45366
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 12:17:23

    member of our own species unique.  Everyone is one in 3
    billion at the moment, which describes the odds.  Each of us
    is a self-contained, free-standing individual, labeled by
    specific protein configurations at the surface of cells,
    identifiable by whorls of fingertip skin, maybe even by
    special medleys of fragrance.  You'd think we'd never stop
    dancing.
      Perhaps it is not surprising that we do not live more
    surprised.  After all, we are used to unlikelihood.  Being
    born into it, raised in it, we become acclimated to the
    altitude, like natives in the Andes.  Moreover, we all know
    that the astonishment is transient, and sooner or later our
    particles will all go back to being random.
      Also, there are reasons to suspect that we are really not
    the absolute, pure entities that we seem.  We have some
    sense of ordinariness, and it tends to diminish our
    surprise.  Despite all the evidences of biological privacy
    in our cells and tissues (to the extent that a fragment of
    cell membrane will be recognized and rejected between any
    conceivable pairs among the 3 billion, excepting identical
    twins), there is a certain slippage in our brains.  No one,
    in fact, can lay claim with certainty to his own mind with
    anything like the specificity stipulated by fingerprints or
    tissue antigens.

    Message: 45368
    Author: $ Laura Lansberry
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jaynes
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:04:43

    Checked my back mail Princeton was right ... it's been years. I wrote him
    when the book first came out.

    Message: 45369
    Author: $ Laura Lansberry
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Belief
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:17:53

    Belief or lack of it is a choice and the opinion of the holder. If one
    chooses to believe the question that arises then, in my mind, is how does
    someone dying on a cross save anyone from sin, assuming there is such a
    thing as sin?
    What is the cause and effect relationship?
    If my house is on fire, and your house is on fire, and Joe's, Jane's, Ann's,
    and so on has a house on fire ... how would a Son of God coming to earth and
    saying I will burn down my house to save your house do anything to save
    anyone's house?
    Assuming we are all sinners, how did a flesh and blood sacrifice excuse us
    from sin? What is the reasoning? Where is the logic in this?
    Are we supposedly saved because we are willing to believe it happened?

    Question 2:
    If the Bible is inspired and God saw fit to inspire it as a means of proving
    his existance then why didn't he protect it from being poorly translated?
    Why is it garbaged up with so many errors in later editions? Did he only
    choose to protect the original versions? Why only the original versions ...
    did he not care if anyone modern believed? I have seen many bibles with
    typographical errors, not an insignifigant error in a book said to be
    protected by God?

    YOU requested new questions: I have never seen these asked on any board
    before. And there are lots more questions.

    Message: 45370
    Author: $ Laura Lansberry
    Category: Religion
    Subject: cont.
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:26:01

    A child with Leukemia? That is the least of my questions.
    How about a child machine gunned in the gut and left to lie there with big
    soulful eyes in terrible agony and pain for hours before dying? Or someone
    falling from an airplane 2000 feet, breaking every bone in their body,
    thanking God they are still alive ... where was God when that person fell
    from the plane? Napping!
        There maybe something doing something in our lives as it is moved or as
    we call upon it ... but it is not omniscient, omnipotent, omni-present, and
    omni-loving. Maybe it is none of those things ...

    In the Old Testament the Character of God is dramatically different from the
    God of the New Testament. The Old God was an angry, wrathful, kill 'em to
    the last man, woman, child, and livestock type of critter ... the God of
    the New Testament is a God of love and forgiveness ... did he evolve, or was
    it that mankind evolved and so needed to see God in a different light?

    Enough for now ... just heard that someone wanted some new questions cause
    the old ones were being repetitious. Bye for now!

    Message: 45371
    Author: Joan Chevalier
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hello!
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:55:24

    I haven't been on this system in a long while and so I'm first going to say
    hello.  It's interesting.  The last time I was on the board a big debate on
    homosexuality was just winding up and the religious debate was just
    beginning.  That was back in early June.  And here I am after a long absence
    and the religious debate is still going strong.  I'm gonna sit this one out.
    From the posts I've read, some interesting questions have been posed.

    Message: 45372
    Author: Leanmean Strings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: INTRODUCING...
    Date: 07/26/87  Time: 15:49:58

     *** Fellow Computer Enthusiasts ***
    I am a new kid on the block. My name is Lean Mean Strings.
    No, it's not my REAL name, but it does stand for my second favorate
    passtime,
                                M U S I C !!!
                              I won't say the first.

                                -=lean strings=-

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    Subject:WOW

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     1:I guess I'm going to have a lot of company in hell, good.
     2:
     3:  I was thinking last night and I recalled something from this board long
     4:ago, I will take a shot at explaining it:
     5:  If god can learn then he doesn't know everything, if he can't learn then
     6:he know everything, and
     7:end

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    Subject:James White

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     1:Back from the bathroom, where I puked my guts out, trying to come up with
     2:the answer for Jim and the stone, I feel better now, less afraid.
     3:"Jim", I say, "Bob can only lift a stone that is as big as the universe, any
     4:bigger and it can not be lifted."  "But between He and Bobra I believe they
     5:can take care of all of it."
     6:  "Totally stupid Rot", smirks Jim
     7:  "Yea, well, I just wanted to answer you question and I have, so I will now
     8:let you get on to answering some of the other users questions, like Nick and
     9:Ann and Laura, not to forget Jim Lippards and certainally let's not forget
    10:Burkhart, to be sure."  "It has been nice, until we meet again."
    11:                                Rod
    12:end

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     7: "Yea, well, I just wanted to answer your question and I have, so I will now

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    Subject:Quote

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     1:Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and value
     2:judgements of all kinds remain outside of its domain. ---
     3:                                Albert Einstein, 1950
     4:end

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