### Apollo BBS Archive - April 25, 1990

    Message: 65017
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 01:14:56

    Rod, you are right in saying that there is not a person ALIVE that can
    tell us what happened approximately 2000 years ago. But there are those
    who, approximately 2000 years ago, recorded events that occured during
    the time they WERE alive. And judging by the way you have spoken about
    your "experience" with Christianity, I doubt that you can truly say you
    have "travelled the road" I am now on.

    You mentioned "many religions that have their roots in a messiah
    walking on water, rising from the dead, being prophecied to come." If
    you could give me a brief list of these religions, I would appreciate
    it.

    So, what's the big deal about so many people being Christians? The fact
    that Christianity is still around despite many attempts to squelch it
    says something about the One we put our trust in.

    If I moved to Teheran and set up residence, and learned the language, I
    still would not be afraid to be a believer in Christ and share the good
    news. If someone tried to kill me because of it, I wouldn't turn my
    back on Jesus to save my skin. God tells me that "whoever wants to
    save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will
    find it" (Matthew 16:25). You say that Christianity is "hollow and
    without real substance." Well, the fact that you used the word "tried"
    suggests to me that you were not letting the Spirit do his work in
    your heart. "Trying" Christianity will always fail, because it is
    not us that "decides" to "accept" Christ, but the Spirit of God working
    faith into our hearts through the word of God.

    "According to the 1990 World Almanac there are..... Hell must be a
    hell of a big place.  I'm proud to be one of those going there and
    I find comfort in knowing where I will spend my eternity.  I take
    heart in knowing that if I were to die this night that I will spend
    all eternity in a place of fire and brimstone serving my master
    day & night, amen."

    Those who hear the word of Yahweh and reject it, reject Jesus, and
    his death for their sins. You reject the Son, you reject the Father.
    There is no other way to get to the Father but through the Son. The
    Gospel is available in almost every corner of the globe. If someone
    HEARS of Jesus' love and sacrifice for them, and hardens their heart
    toward him, they have no one to blame but themselves.

    "Reading the OT is like going to Madame Rose.  She deals in generalities
    that can be taken in a thousand different ways and believe you me, she
    counts on that."

    Let's take a look at what the OT tells us about the Messiah:

    * Ge 49.10:  The Messiah would be from the line of Judah. (cf. Mt
                    1.1-3,2.4-6)

    * Ps 2.1,2:  The rulers of Messiah's period would gather together
                 and conspire against him. (cf. Mt 26.3-4, Mk 15.12-5, to
                 name just a couple references.)

    * Ps 132.11: The Messiah would be from the line of David. (cf. Mt 1.6)

    * Is 7.14:   He would come into the world through a virgin birth.
                 (cf. Mt 1.18-25)

    * Is 11.1,10: He would be from the line of Jesse (cf. Mt 1.5-6)

    * Is 42.1: (cf. Mt 3.17)

    * Is 49.6: (cf. Mt 2.29-32)

    * Is 52.14: The Messiah would suffer inhumane treatment to the point
                of disfiguration.

    * Je 23.5: Another affirmation of Messiah's ancestry tracing back to
               David.

    * Da 7.13: (cf. Mt 27.64)

    * Mc 5.2:  The Messiah would come from Bethlehem. (cf. Mt 2.1)

    * Zc 9.9: (cf. Mt 21.1-7)

    * Zc 12.10: "They will look on...the one they have pierced..."(cf.
                Jn 19.34-35,37)

    * Zc 13.7: The shepherd would be struck, and the sheep scattered. (cf. Mt
    26.31; Mk 14.27)

    * Ps 22.18: His garments were divided, and lots were cast for his
                clothing. (cf. Mt 27.35; Mk 15.24; Lk 23.34; Jn 19.23-
                 24)

    * Ps 34.20: None of his bones would be broken. (cf. Jn 19.31-33,37)

    Quite a list, and even this is incomplete.

    "If the OT prophecies who the messiah was to be then how come multi-millions
    don't agree that it does?  Huh?"

    Good question.

    "Christianity is a cult just like Jim Jones' organization except your group
    doesn't want your life, only your money..."

    Sorry, Rod. Salvation is free. (Ro 3.23-24; Rv 22.17) The homeless man
    on the street without a penny to his name is forgiven just as much as
    the rich man. Christ paid for the sins of all, not just the rich.

    "I am not Christian bashing, believe me."

    Yeah, uh-huh.

    "We need a more sane world, not one of disorganized sheep..."

    You gotta problem with "Love your neighbor as yourself," do not steal,
    do not murder, do not bear false testimony, do not covet, etc.? If
    more people READ God's word and FOLLOWED what it says, we WOULD be
    living in a sane world.

    "Yes, I did retain something from my church period, it is this:  All I gotta
    do is believe...then and only then will I, after I shed my flesh,
    go directly to heaven...But all of my earthly enemies...will go to the
    other place along with at least 2 billion others..."

    Rather shallow understanding of God. (Note that I place the "shallow"
    on your "understanding," not on God. Your emphasis in your above state-
    ment seems to be very 'me' oriented. Three "I's" and one "me," and only
    one (negative) reference to others. Your Christian experience was 'shal-
    low' because you never allowed yourself to delve deeply into God's mes-
    sage.

    "So, you cannot handle a universe that was not specifically manu-
    factured for a reason..."

    No, I just have a hard time believing that we are all here by accident,
    and that our lives are just pointless, meaningless existances. Apparent-
    ly, you don't. And you expect a world of pointless (without any real reason
    for existing other than some
    cosmic belch) people with pointless lives and no real reason to live,
    to somehow get together and live life in an organized matter? It won't
    work. Chaos in; chaos out, Rod.

    "Interesting.  There must be a good reason that you are a follower,
    probably something your parents did to you while raising you."

    It's hard to respond to this quote, not knowing exactly what you meant
    by "something your parents did to you while raising you." I am going to
    assume you meant that they took me to church. My mom took me to church,
    my dad never went. And we did not go to church long, because of my
    father's complaints. My childhood experience with Christianity was a
    very brief one, and at a very young age. Judging from my agnostic/atheistic
    period of 15+ years, I obviously didn't retain much.

    "Lastly, I have no need or desire for an atheist symbol.  I cannot think of
    a good reason for one..."

    Neither can I.

    *=* Daryl *=*

    Message: 65028
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 01:34:01

    "So basically, you turned to Christianity because you were desperate for
    something to fill the voids in your life...This void-filling phase in your
    life seems to also be marked by your attainment of a mate.  Tell us, was she
    already a Christian - did she influence your decision?"

    I was not desperate (in the sense of grasping furiously) for something.
    And even if I was, it was certainly not for God. In fact, I would take
    the opportunity at every turn to blame God for my problems. Yes, my wife
    was already a Christian, but she did not push it on me. The decision to
    attend church with her was purely my decision. Knowing the frame of mind
    I was in (see above), she figured it was pointless to try and force or
    "guilt" me into going, and she was right. And for a long time, I didn't.

    "Don't worry, I'm not trying to put you down for anything, I just
    want to know what the pattern was."

    I didn't go. I didn't go. I didn't go. I didn't go. And then I did. Try
    and figure a pattern there.

    "Ever been to the Door?...I've heard a lot about it...There are a bunch
    of Christian converts there who have testimonies to force on you...And
    then they were converted, and poof! look at them now -- honest, credible,
    mentally stable...Whenever I let myself be verbally poured upon by
    these people, a common question enters my mind:  "Are there any of you
    who *weren't* losers before you entered the religion?"

    If you had asked anyone who knew me, I doubt anyone would have labelled
    me a loser. I was intelligent, had talents in computers, music, and elec-
    tronics, loved to write...never got into any trouble, never took drugs,
    didn't "get girls in trouble." In short, every parent's dream. But deep
    down, I was a loser. I had no self-respect. Which takes us to your next
    quote:

    "People who are suicidal usually have a single common reason for their
    feeling:  no feeling of self-worth.  One antidote is family, friends, or a
    group of supporters, i.e. LOVE..."

    I had a family that loved me and whom I loved. I had friends that loved
    me; and I, them. I had my group of supporters and confidantes. I was in
    no shortage of human love. All that love, and yet, I was still missing
    something. I know I've found that "Something," and He has made all the
    difference in the world.

    Message: 65032
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last 14
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 01:37:28

    Sorry about the irregular lengths of those posts. I responded to each as one
    large message in my text editor, and then chopped it down into non-broken
    parts.

    Rod, the reason there was an 8, 9, and 10, when there was originally only to
    be 7...well, I forgot to measure the line length of the last post, and after
    attempting to upload it, I overfilled the buffer. I had to go offline and
    chop it down into three more posts.

    Message: 65033
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl (1 of 84)
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 02:36:43

    Just kidding gang.  I skipped a day and look what happened, wow, oh wow.  My
    buffer has 89,943K for me to read.

    I just spent the past four hours doing labels, letterheads, writing letters
    and doing graphics for the t-shirt business.  Then I log on Apollo thinking
    that maybe 35K would be waiting.

    By the way, I paused when I saw a shirt slogan.  Man, there are some mighty
    good ones.  I will print them out and run them by Peter and Mike although I
    think that Daryl may become rich, a few others too, I hope.

    We can all go to Capitalist-Pig Heaven, oink, oink.  Praise the lard.

    My eyes are tired but I will read my buffer and answer or comment to
    whatever was meant for me.

    Daryl....I think you support a lost cause.  If only you understood what a
    waste religion is.  It is basically something that DIVIDES people, not bring
    them together.  Atheists do not have that problem, we all know we must work
    for a better world, not just believe that everything will be handled for us
    by some big dude.

    I can't pray that your eyes will one day be opened because that is a total
    waste.  I can only hope that you read logic.       -Rod