### Apollo BBS Archive - May 2, 1998

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    Message: 3424
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Working
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 09:44:24

      Seeing a street bum holding a sign saying 'I will work for food' being
    given food without being asked to work gave me an idea. Will we soon see
    people standing at intersections holding signs that read, 'I will work for
    sex', or 'I will work for appliances'?
      See you later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 3425
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 09:55:37

    Last time I saw one of those guys, I imagined a street hitman holding a sign
    "Will Kill for Food".

    Message: 3426
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean/sign
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 10:57:11

    My husband encounter one of those guys holding up a sign on a street cornor
    that said "Want any work - desparate!"
    My husband was desparate for laborers and stopped. Said he'd pay $5 an hour
    for clean up work on an apartment he was almost through with. The guy seemed
    grateful and said he'd be there at 7:AM the next morning! He got there at
    9:30 AM - someone dropped him off and he had two opened beers in his hand!
    After my husband gave him a lexture about no drinking on the job - he gave
    him a broom! That's all he did was sweep until noon and then he says to my
    husband "I can't do this kind of hard work for only $5 an hour"! He did not
    do anymore sweeping or anything else! My husband now has a policy not to
    pick these guys up - he's been burned too many times. They don't want to
    work and want a big pay check. Their classic excuse is - "I have a wife and
    kids at home and can't work for $5 an hour. These guys never have any skills
    either. If they did - then he'd pay them more if they worked for it.
    =*--ANN--*=

    Message: 3427
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Want work, desperate
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 13:11:50

    I too have seen some of these guys sitting on corners.  The best are when
    they have a few children with them.  I felt sorry for the first few I saw,
    but now I think it has become a scam.  I was discussing this with Sandy a
    few weeks ago, and she said that she watched one of these so called
    desperate people for a few days in passing.  One day he was by himself, the
    next he brought some little kids with him to heighten the effect.  Some of
    these guys are pulling in $150 a day.  Perhaps I should borrow a couple of
    Rods smaller children, dress them and myself in rags, and find a good
    corner!

    Message: 3428
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 14:26:33

    Yeah, and if we're lucky, you'll all be run over by a truck.

    Message: 3429
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Guys with signs
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 16:48:29

    Hey, holding those signs is hard work.

    Message: 3430
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Last....
    Subject: Sign People
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 21:53:07

      I suppose we should be applauding them for pioneering a new tax-free
    approach to capital formation. If we get in on the ground floor now, before
    the industry becomes regulated to prevent further competition, we stand a
    good chance of being able to clean up. The franchising rights alone could be
    worth a fortune.
      See you later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 3432
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: David/signs
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 11:21:15

    Yeah - that is hard work. Next thing you know, they'll be wanting payment
    for all that hard work! =*--ANN--*=
    P.S. The worst guy my husband hired came to work the next day with four
    kids! On a construction job no less! Said his wife worked and they didn't
    have a baby sitter. That one, he was a real sucker for (my husband) - he let
    him work the day. What happened? Almost at quitting time, one of the kids
    got hurt and it cost my husband $150 for stitches at the doctor's office!
    This guy just let his kids have the run of the site. It was an unfortunate
    valuble lesson.

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    Subject:WORK

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     1:        I get Central and Indian School.  Also, my children are for rent,
     2:10% of the take.  Yes, I will work for sex.
     3:end

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    Message: 51996
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prophets of Oct. 19
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:07:36

    Since October 19 of last year, 59 straight months of economic growth have
    become 65 straight months of economic growth.  Following are a sampling of
    prophecies from the immediate aftermath of the "crash of '87," compiled by
    The American Spectator:

         "If it felt like the end of a world, that's because it was; last week's
    global crash has created a whole new financial reality. . . . In disquieting
    echoes of Herbert Hoover, Reagan and his men proclaimed that 'the economic
    fundamentals in this country remain sound.'"
         --"Panic of 1987," news story, Newsweek, November 2

         "In a statement issued last night, the White House asserted that 'the
    underlying economy remains sound.'  With the fire alarm wailing on Wall
    Street and the country anxios for leadership, it gets an astonishing rerun
    of Herbert Hoover.  When will Mr. Reagan start fighting the fire?"--The New
         --Editorial, The New York Times, October 20

         "The Binge is over.  It couldn't go on forever--the quick fortunes, the
    midnight raids and computer driven program trades, the junk bonds, poison
    pills, leveraged buyouts, options--all the glitz and glamour, the danger and
    thrill.  It's over. . . .
         "But now it's morning and the binge seems to be over.  Many have
    hangovers.  Many have worse.  The jackasses are clearly identifiable.  And
    the rest of us, who pretended not to notice, are left with the job of

    Message: 51997
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 10/19/87
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:10:16

    cleaning up the mess."
         --Op-ed piece by Professor Robert B. Reich, New York Times, October 22

         "The noise you heard was not just the crash of the market.  It was the
    crumbling of support for Ronald Reagan.
         "In a moment of frightening crisis, the President of the United States
    was treated as essentially irrelevant.  The financial experts and politcians
    who appeared on television, people of both parties, showed no expectation of
    leadership from Mr. Reagan.  It was as if the were embarrassed to mention
    his name.
         "The reason for this disregard is no great mystery.  Practically no one
    in this country, not even those who admire Mr. Reagan as a person, thinks he
    has any sense of economic reality . . .
         "The age of Reagan is over now, no matter what happens."
         -Anthony Lewis, The New York Times, October 22.

         "Imagine if the president and Congress had agreed last summer to cut
    the federal deficit by $60 billion.  Let's say they did it through a
    20-cent-a-gallon gasoline tax for about $20 billion, trimming middle-class
    entitlements another $20 billion (ending the tax exemption for Social
    Security payments is almost enough to do this alone), and raising tax rates
    one percent for another $20 billion.  That may not be an ideally fair and
    efficient formula.  It's just one of many possible variations on the theme
    of getting America's appetites back under control.

    Message: 51998
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prophets of October
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:19:41

         "The pont is this:  Can anyone doubt that such an achievement would
    have prevented the crash? . . .
         "Conservatives like to accuse liberals of a 'beltway mentality'--a
    removal from the reality that lies outside the golden circle.  But inside
    the Beltway is where the blinding mist of Reaganism has ben the thickets.
    Conservatives actually thought they had abolished the Phillips Curve.  That
    much-mocked concept, which holds that there's a tradeoff between avoiding
    inflation and avoiding recession, also expresses the broader principle that
    economic policy choices cannot be pain-free.  The Phillips Curve is about to
    boomerang upon us with a vengence.
         "For years the doom-and-gloomers have had to endure the taunt:  'What
    do you know that the stock market doesn't?'  (Or, 'If you're so smart, how
    come everyone else is getting rich?')  Nevertheless, this is hardly an
    occasion for gloating."
         --Michael Kinsley, The New Republic, October 21

         "The usual way of handling crises at the White House--at least since
    Herbert Hoover--has been for the president to call in the wise men to the
    Oval Office, sit them down and tell them to fix it.
         "This is not Ronald Reagan's style. . . .
         "The first day, he shouted that the economy was in good shape.  The
    second day, he said it was all Congress's fault.  The third day, he said
    that only people who refused to buy, and, of course, the press, could bring
    on a recession.  Embarrassed aides were explaining that his 'Who-me, what-

    Message: 51999
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prophets of October
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:24:41

    crisis' approach was a considered strategy to avert panic. . . .
         "But the financial community is ready to admit that it is the morning
    after the biggest binge in history.  The president hates to say the party's
    over."
         --Mary McGrory, The Washington Post, October 22

         "We are on a nonstop binge, punishing our economy.  It's outrageous
    that our elected officials say the fundamentals of the economy are sound;
    NONE of the fundamentals are sound."
         --H. Ross Perot, Newsweek, November 2

         "Five years of economic prosperity, in which unemployment has steadily
    dropped while inflation has remained surprisingly low, has infused much of
    the nation with a false sense of well-being."
         --Editorial, Philadelphia Inquirer, October 20

         "In a sense, it was the Reagan Revolution come full circle:  the
    excesses of the past six years, visible in deficits near $200 billion a year
    in both the budget and trade, couldn't go on forever. . . .
         "Now, the joy ride is over, but so far, the staggering record stock
    market collapse . . . has met with government denial reminiscent of 1929.
    . . . 'The economy is fundamentally sound,' said Treasury Secretary James A.
    Baker III.  And President Reagan, who gives every evidence of being totally
    out of touch with reality, told reporters:  'I don't know what meaning it

    Message: 52000
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prophets of October
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:28:51

    might have, all the business indexes are up--there's nothing wrong with the
    economy."
         --Herbert Rowan, The Washington Post, October 21

         "A political scientist, Michael Nelson, has observed that the
    Presidents from Franklin Roosevelt to John Kennedy were generally portrayed
    as Saviors, Johnson and Nixon were cartooned as Satans, and Ford and Carter
    as Samsons--weak Presidents shorn of their strength.  Reagan seems to invite
    the thought that he has found a new model, the Salesman, in the last act,
    standing on a stage about to go dark."
         --Lance Morrow, Time, November 9

         "Although the huge financial shakeout we have just experienced was not
    inevitable, it was to some extent predictable.  As 20th century history
    shows, a period of conservative Republican dominance leads to a failed
    capitalim, while a period of liberal Democratic dominance creates and
    sustains the conditions for successful capitalism."
         --Dr. Hyman P. Minsky, The New York Times, October 22

         "This debacle marks the last chapter of Reaganomics. . . . In 1929
    every high member of the Hoover administration rushed to say that the
    economy was 'fundamentally sound.'  That is exactly what I seem to be
    hearing these days.  They seem to have dug out the old script.  The prospect
    of the present administration doing anything is hampered by the fact that it

    Message: 52001
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prophets of October
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:31:24

    believes that God is a Republican and will handle things."
         --John Kenneth Galbraith, Newsweek, November 2

         "Galbraith is uncharacteristically modest about his predictive powes.
    'It requires neither courage nor prescience to predict disaster,' he writes
    on the first page of 'The Great Crash: 1929,' which Houghton Mifflin is
    reissuing this month.  Still, in a clairvoyant article in the Atlantic last
    winter, nine months before the crash of 1987, Galbraith set out what he saw
    to be alarming parallels to 1928 . . ."
         --The Washington Post, March 30, 1988 [!]

    By the way, the Consumer Price Index rose only 0.23 percent during February,
    and the GNP rose 4.8 percent for the final quarter of 1987.

    Message: 52002
    Author: Dennis Connolly
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Coconet
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 01:41:44

    Coconet is now run by Rob Wendling, with a temporary
    number of 483-0690. It is run 10pm-3pm M-F, and 10pm-7am
    (I think) on weekends, till the 24 hour line is set up.
    It is still 300/1200 baud.
    Please help spread the word of the changes since most of
    the calls I have been getting at the old number hang up as
    soon as they hear a voice.
    Dennis Connolly, former Sysop of Coconet.

    Message: 52003
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 02:56:48

    My, how he rambles.

    Message: 52004
    Author: Mike Stackpole
    Category: War!
    Subject: Fred Weber/KFYI
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 07:29:02

    Listen up, folks...
            FRED WEBER, GM of KFYI has gotten an order restraining listeners
    from writing to sponsors to express their displeasure with the dimissal of
    Tom Leykis.  Whether or not you like Tom and his style, you must agree this
    is a major violation of OUR constitutional rights.  Weber clearly feels that
    he has enough money to intimidate people who are only exercising their
    rights of free speech.
            Fine, if he wants to do that, let's make him spend all of his money.
     If we all write letters to the sponsors, we'll force Fred to have papers
    served on all of us.  That costs money.  If we get lots of people to do it,
    it will cost lots of money.  If Weber wants to intimidate us, let him pay
    for it.
            I urge you to listen to KFYI long enough to get the names of some
    sponsors, and then let them know how you feel about these heavy handed
    tactics.  Weber clearly is feeling the pressure from the sponsors, and it is
    our duty to turn the heat up.
            This is America, dammit, and we have rights, too!
    Mike Stackpole

    Message: 52005
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike who?
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 08:05:23

    Who the heck is Mike Stackpole, anyway  - sounds a lot like some guy
    that used to use a pseudonym...
        Anyway, I have watched this thing at KFYI with interest.  Hey, how in
    the world can someone get such a restraining order?  What judge in this
    entire nation would order it so?  Something is fishy here.  Are you sure
    that it restrains people from writing letters - that would be a real first,
    and it would, in my opinion, banish KFYI from any thinking person's mind as
    a radio station one would wish to listen to, for they would, by such an
    action, be denying that anyone BUT THEM has the right to free speech.  And
    after listening to Barry Young, Bob Mohann et. al. talk all about how
    precious that first amendment right is, one would have to hang a big sign on
    the front of the building that said, "HYPOCRITES!!!"
    James>>>

    Message: 52006
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: KFYI
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 10:19:10

    Yes, it admonishes the named persons and organizations not to write letters,
    picket, or call for a boycott. It was a *temporary* restraining order, but I
    think it should have been dismissed out-of-hand. If it gets made permanent,
    then either Weber was able to afford a much better attorney, or the judge is
    a severe mental case.

    Rev. Beau

    Message: 52007
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: War!
    Subject: KFYI
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 12:50:34

       According to the *Republic* article, the order was issued by Judge Cecil
    Patterson of Maricopa County Superior Court.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 52008
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: War!
    Subject: KFYI
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 13:25:34

       Don't miss the editorial on page C2 of the Sunday *Republic*.  Pat Murphy
    wrote an editorial on this KFYI debacle, and he relates a conversation he
    had with an excited Fred Weber over a column Bud Wilkinson wrote.  Basicly,
    Wilkinson suggested, without specifying any station, that one way to
    influence a station is to not write them in your Arbitron book if you are
    being surveyed.  Mr. Weber was very upset with this suggestion, according to
    Murphy, and demanded a retraction, claiming that that would cost him
    "millions."  Murphy declined to do that, and Weber hung up with the old
    you'll-hear-from-my-lawyer line.  I'd *love* to see Weber TRY to sue the
    *Republic*.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 52009
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 16:46:29

    It would really be a battle of titanic idiots.

    Message: 52010
    Author: $ Carol Graham
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: rod/jt/donate
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 00:40:46

    Donate the hardware to me.

    I'll store it for you till you find a buyer.

    Carol->

    Message: 52011
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Alan/David
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 00:51:11

    Finally a bigger idiot than Pat Murphy!

    Message: 52012
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carol
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 01:31:18

    Perhaps we could work something out where you could use the equipment until
    it's sold, but you would make the effort to sell it.

    Message: 52013
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Stackpole
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 02:13:08

    I believe he is a software author for Interplay software.

    Message: 52014
    Author: Apro Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Reality Club
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 18:14:17

      Another serious argument against machinate evolution is
    that they contain no DNA or RNA and tend not to be made of
    carbon-nitrogen compounds in water.  But beehives, snail
    shells, and insect exoskeletons lack DNA and RNA as well.
    Machines - like beehives and exoskeletons - evolve retaining
    their connections to our autopoietic selves.  Autopoiesis
    and evolution are not determined by composition, but by
    function and composition.  The debate over what is and what
    isn't capable of evolution takes on new fascination as a
    close study of waste transformations and an atmosphere
    steeped in biogenic (including anthropogenic) chemicals
    reveals that no clear line can be drawn between organisms
    and their environment.  If life is defined as autopoietic
    reproducing entities based on reduced carbon compounds, then
    at first glance machines can never be alive since they are
    not based on carbon.  Yet what is meant by "based"?  Surely
    any invention of human beings is ultimately based on a
    variety of processes including that of DNA replication, no
    matter the separation in space or time of that replication
    from that invention.
      Civilization as we know it can no longer survive without
    machines.  It seems likely that humans will survive to
    govern the transition from an organic to a technobic
    biosphere.  Just as termites making mounds from their feces

    Message: 52015
    Author: Apro Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Reality Club
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 18:20:58

    outgrew their ancestral wood-eating roaches that did not
    fashion homes from excrement, apparently human beings in
    association with machines have a great selective advantage
    over those alienated from machines.  Material processing of
    the external environment matters in evolution.  New elements
    and chemical compounds are brought into the process of life.
    Evidence of the selective advantage of people with machines
    follows from observations of the rates at which
    "underdeveloped" countries are trying to catch up with
    "developed" nations.  One imagines an even greater selection
    advantage to those humans who totally reuse their waste,
    both cultural excretion such as pollution and organic wastes
    such as sewage.

    Message: 52016
    Author: Darren Erickson
    Category: War!
    Subject: kfyi
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 19:38:07

    I don't see how anybody could restrain a person from writing a letter.  Nor
    do I see how KFYI could object to a private party writing a business, even
    if it is one of their sponsors.
    'nuff said,
    -----Darren

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     1:        The world ends tomorror.
     2:end

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    Message: 1320
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 10:20:33

    I'm going to be in your neighborhood this afternoon. A friend and I are
    going to walk through the 'open houses' in the area.

    Rev. Beau

    Message: 1321
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/last
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 11:03:14

    Chainsaws? Fire torches? Watermelons? Sounds like one hell of an interesting
    dinner. Can I drop in afterwards to see whats going on? Ta ta =*--ANN--*=
    P.S. You aren't starting another story without me are you? These things
    sound like my kind of story - especially the chainsaw bit. Ta ta =*--ANN--*=

    Message: 1322
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Chainsaws?
    Date: 05/01/88  Time: 22:00:28

    I don't do chainsaws. I like my fingers where they are, thank you very much.

    Rev. Beau

    Message: 1323
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Last
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 00:52:45

    Where are your fingers?  And WHY do you like them where they are?

    Message: 1324
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 05/02/88  Time: 11:25:05

    It's not your fingers that Rod was thinking about cutting off! Hahaha
    =*--ANN--*=

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     1:        I juggle clients.

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