### Apollo BBS Archive - July 20, 1987

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    Message: 1569
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: King/Bachman
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 01:54:42

    You're right. I did know  that about King.
    Now if I can just get my hands on the other three.

    I too would be interested in that copy of Castle Of Wizardry.
    The Anthony book is Out of Phaze. So far it is real good.

    Message: 1570
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Writers Cramp
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 06:44:44

      Rod has a seriously one-track mind.  At least he didn't say that it was a
    book of child molestation.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 1571
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike/King
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 09:17:40

    What did you mean by the other three? Didn't that story come in a large book
    with many stories? -- ANN

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    Message: 45225
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Lippard
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 23:18:00

    A universe in which everything is painted blue is a logical contradiction,
    because it leads to an infinite regress:  how do you paint the blue paint
    blue?

    Message: 45226
    Author: Jacqueline Mitchell
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: MAGIC
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 01:15:06

    TO:  ROD WILLIAMS, I love the Magic poem, especially the part about prayer
    and the holly ghost!  What a gass!

    Message: 45227
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: blue paint
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 02:53:02

    There is no infinite regress; the statement assumes everything except the
    paint to be painted.

    Message: 45228
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: God
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 08:00:35

            I rubbed my eyes wearily and looked at God.  "So, are you as
    ignorant as Rod suggests?  He says you've done a poor job because you allow
    evil to exist."
            God smiled easily.  "Humans so often use logic in an attempt to
    explain why something "miraculous" happened.  Logic does not always apply.
    Take Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated Equilibrium in which he
    suggests a mutation and improves a species happens in a small population of
    the creatures, then those improved creatures spread out to replace their
    older, less effective cousins.  That's a logical explanation, but,
    ultimately, that theory rests upon the idea that a random mutation proves
    beneficial.  All that logic is based on a random occurance..."
            I nodded.  "I guess I understand.  I would also guess that man is
    unable, from his viewpoint in the universe, to see the whole picture."
            God smiled.  "Very true.  Case in point: Christians today deny any
    link between reincarnation and Christianity when their faith in the return
    of my son really is a reincarnational belief.  Why can they not believe that
    I will allow even the most evil person another chance to do good and redeem
    himself?  Perhaps, by allowing evil, and by allowing redeption, I have not
    done as bad a job as has been suggested.  As for the ignorance charge, I
    think Rod forgets that knowing everything means that I may know the furthest
    implication of all actions, so what he sees as ignorant in the short run,
    proves to be very beneficial in the long run."
            I sighed.  "Want anything else to eat?"
            God nodded.  "A beer.  We don't have any in heaven."

    Message: 45229
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo's Standards
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 08:40:10

         When I first started logging onto Apollo, many Christians
    on other boards warned me that I wouldn't like it around here.
    What I thought they meant was that there would be opposition
    and disagreement with my position, which is fine with me.  I
    don't mind debate at all - in fact, I sort of make my living
    at it.  But over the past few weeks I've figured out that that
    was not what those Christians were talking about.  They were
    talking about the massive set of double standards present
    on Apollo.  Witness, for example, last week.  Rod gets on here
    and posts four disgusting messages.  That is all they were.
    There was no value to them, they were meant only to make angry
    and to build walls between people.  When I replied (and NOT
    in kind to be sure) only one person backed me up - Cliff.
    Everyone else was saying "well gee, Rod has a right..."  If
    I had posted a bunch of pejorative comments about Rod or all
    atheists in general, the flood of response would have been
    enormous, and maybe even rightly so.
         I don't need to spend time attempting to deal with issues
    with people who don't want to deal with issues.  That is
    ridiculous.  I prefer an open situation where the issues can
    be aired without the foolishness present around here.  Hey,
    anyone can get hold of me in a public forum every Saturday
    and state their case - so why waste time here?  Who knows.

    Message: 45230
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo2
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 08:41:04

         I will finish up commenting on Jim Lippard's book and will
    post those messages.  I feel his material requires an answer,
    and at the very least it will help with the rewrite, right Jim?
    By the way, if F.F. Bruce is ultra-conservative in your opinion,
    you just proved to me that 1) you know little about NT scholar-
    ship; 2) whatever professors you are relying on out there at
    ASU don't know much about NT scholarship either.  Your biases
    are showing all too clearly.
         And finally - Cliff.  You mentioned once that people like
    Rod had chased off other users.  I certainly know why.  It is
    not that he is so smart and his questions can't be handled - you
    know that.  See, most of the people I know who spend time
    BBSing are people who attempt to respect those with whom they
    are communicating.  Rod (and others) don't care if they offend
    for no reason at all - they get a real kick out of it.  I put
    a little blurb apologizing for saying this was an "atheist"
    board in the next issue of the Dividing Line (should get it
    next week sometime if lucky) but, I'll be perfectly honest
    with you - if things keep going like they are, the only ones
    left around here who won't be so offended that they won't bother
    are the atheists, and then the description will be appropriate.
    James>>>

    Message: 45231
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 09:15:09

    What do you mean there won't be anyone left on this board that won't be
    offended but the atheists? I've been here for awhi1e and got the opinion
    that it was basically a Christian board. I've got several questions to ask
    you - to learn - not to argue with you. Yet - you have not bothered with me.
    You sound like you want Rod to be banned from here or at least put in the
    Phantom Zone because he believes the way he does. Not fair!! IF you don't
    like what Rod has to say - there are others who will discuss the issue with
    you - but don't cut down the board.!  I have not liked all that has been
    said at times as they havn't liked what I've said either. Thats the point of
    BBSes. To be able to say what you want - answer - or ignore. ---- To be
    honest - I think this issue is going to make alot of enemies. Sad! -ANN

    Message: 45232
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: painted blue
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 10:38:29

    Yeah, you can get an infinite regress if you misinterpret what I was saying.
    Try this:  "a universe in which everything IS blue".

    Message: 45233
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Alan/sex
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 10:52:53

            In answer to your question; 'don't you have a more than professional
    relationship with the boss?'
            I say ....... If you can't beat 'em ....... join 'em.

                            Sandy

    Message: 45234
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 15:09:08

    Not a good analogy.  Rod does take responsibility for his own actions.
    I agree with Ann -- the doctrine of original sin assumes that we are sinners
    from the start, and have no control over it.  I'd rather take responsibilty
    for my own sins, thank you.

    Message: 45235
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 15:17:30

    OK, if it'll make you feel better, I'll tell Rod he's a jerk next time I see
    him.
    It doesn't change my opinion about YOU, however.

    Message: 45236
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 18:07:03

    ...
      The small tribe of Iks, formerly nomadic hunters and
    gatherers in the mountain valleys of northern Uganda, have
    become celebrities, literary symbols for the ultimate fate of
    disheartened, heartless mankind at large.  ... the
    government decided to have a national park, so they were
    compelled by law to give up hunting in the valleys and
    become farmers on poor hillside soil...
      ...the Iks have transformed themselves into an
    irreversibly disagreeable collection of unattached, brutish
    creatures, totally selfish and loveless, in response to the
    dismantling of their traditional culture.  Moreover, this is
    what the rest of us are like in our inner selves, and we
    will all turn into Iks when the structure of our society
    comes all unhinged.
      The argument rests, of course, on certain assumptions
    about the core of human beings, and is necessarily
    speculative.  You have to agree in advance that man is
    fundamentally a bad lot, out for himself alone, displaying
    such graces as affection and compassion only as learned
    habits.  If you take this view, the story of the Iks can be
    used to confirm it.  These people seem to be living
    together, clustered in small, dense villages, but they are
    really solitary, unrelated individuals with no evident use

    Message: 45237
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 18:18:10

    for each other.  They talk, but only to make ill-tempered
    demands and cold refusals.  They share nothing.  They never
    sing.  They turn the children out to forage as soon as they
    can walk, and desert the elders to starve whenever they can,
    and the foraging children snatch food from the mouths of the
    helpless elders.  It is a mean society.
      They breed without love or even casual regard.  They
    defecate on each other's doorsteps.  They watch their
    neighbors for signs of misfortune, and only then do they
    laugh.
    ...
      I have a theory then.  The Iks have gone crazy.
      The solitary Ik, isolated in the ruins of an exploded
    culture, has built a new defense for himself.  If you live
    in an unworkable society you can make up one of your own,
    and this is what the Iks have done.  Each Ik has become a
    group, a one-man tribe on its own, a constituency.
      Now everything falls into place.  This is why they do
    seem, after all, vaguely familiar to all of us.  We've seen
    them before.  This is precisely the way groups of one size
    or another, ranging from committees to nations, behave.  It
    is, of course, this aspect of humanity that has lagged
    behind the rest of evolution, and this is why the Ik seems
    so primitive.  In his absolute selfishness, his incapacity

    Message: 45238
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 18:27:13

    to give anything away, no matter what, he is a successful
    committee.  When he stands at the door of his hut, shouting
    insults at his neighbors in a loud harangue, he is city
    addressing another city.
      Cities have all the Ik characteristics.  They defecate on
    doorsteps, in rivers and lakes, their own or anyone else's.
    They leave rubbish.  They detest all neighboring cities,
    give nothing away.  They even build institutions for
    deserting elders out of sight.
      Nations are the most Iklike of all.  No wonder the Iks
    seem familiar.  For total greed, rapacity, heartlessness and
    irresponsibility there is nothing to match a nation.
    Nations, by law, are solitary, self-centered, withdrawn into
    themselves.  There is no such thing as affection between
    nations, and certainly no nation ever loved another.  They
    bawl insults from their doorsteps, defecate into whole
    oceans, snatch all the food, survive by detestation, take
    joy in the bad luck of others, celebrate the death of
    others, live for the death of others.

    Message: 45239
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod & David
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 19:04:45

            Fact...  Rod is a friend... but... he is VERY rude to people who
    want to believe in the Christian faith.  I can not ZAP him off this system
    because he wants to express his ideals ( as wrong as they are )... That
    would be against my ideals!  However I will ask him in person to please be
    polite and hold back on his blasphemy.
            James... read Sandy's post in the istian SIG.  There ARE more
    Christians here, but they are a quiet bunch... or maybe they are afraid of
    Rod's snake lips.

    ClifFORD

    Message: 45240
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: Tom R Sloan
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 19:08:07

            Tom R. Sloan will be on line for it's B-Day... Watch for time and
    Phone number to be posted.   See posts from 85 and 86

    SYSOP ClifFORD

    Message: 45241
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Toshiba's Apology
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 20:18:04

       TOSHIBA CORPORATION EXTENDS ITS DEEPEST REGRETS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Toshiba Corporation shares the shock and anger of the American people,
    the Administration and Congress at the recent conduct of one of our 50 major
    subsidiaries, Toshiba Machine Company. We are equally concerned about the
    serious impact of TMC's diversion on the security of the United States,
    Japan, and other countries of the Free World.

       Toshiba Corporation had no knowledge of this unauthorized action by TMC.
    And the United States and Japanese Governments have not claimed that Toshiba
    Corporation itself had any knowledge or involvement.

       Nevertheless, Toshiba Corporation, as a majority shareholder of TMC,
    profoundly apologizes for these past actions by a subsidiary of Toshiba.
       * As a measure of PERSONAL recognition of the grievous nature of TMC's
    action, both the Chairman and the President of Toshiba Corporation have
    resigned.FOR THE JAPANESE BUSINESS WORLD, THIS IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF
    APOLOGY.
       * In TMC, the subsidiary where the diversion occurred, wrongdoers are now
    being prosecuted.

       For the future, Toshiba Corporation takes full responsibility to insure
    that never again will such activity take place within the Toshiba Group of
    companies.

    Message: 45242
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Toshiba (2)
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 20:23:46

       * We are working with the Governments of the United States and Japan in
    this endeavor.

       The relationship of Toshiba Corporation, its subsidiaries and their
    American employees with the American people, one marked by mutual trust and
    cooperation, has developed over many years of doing business together. We
    pledge to do whatever it takes to repair, preserve, and enhance this
    relationship.

       Toshiba Corporation already has begun to take corrective measures
    throughout its hundreds of subsidaries and affiliate companies:
       * We immediately directed all our companies to institute stringent
    measures guarding more securely against this kind of misconduct.
       * we obtained the resignation of the President of TMC and the three other
    Board members who had corporate responsibility for the conduct of those TMC
    employees actually involved.
       * We also obtained TMC's commitment to stop exports to the Soviet Bloc
    countries for an unlimited time.
       * We have authorized an extensive investigation to find out all the facts
    concerning TMC's actions and to design safeguards to prevent repetition of
    such conduct. This investigation is being directed by American counsel,
    assisted by a major independent accounting firm.
       * We will discharge all officers and employees found to have knowingly
    participated in this wrongful export sale.

    Message: 45243
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Toshiba (3)
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 20:28:51

       * We have appointed the former senior auditing official of Toshiba
    Corporation to TMC's Board with direct responsibility for Toshiba's policy
    of full observance of the law and of Japan's security arrangements with its
    allies.
       * We are going to develop a rigid compliance program in cooperation with
    the Governments of Japan and the United States.
       * We intend to establish Toshiba's new compliance program as a model for
    all future export controls throughout Japanese industry.

       In its 22 years of doing business with the Unites States, Toshiba
    Corportation has been a leader in introducing American products to the
    Japanese market, and also has significantly shifted the manufacture of
    Toshiba products to the United States. At a time when many of the U.S.-based
    corporations competing with Toshiba are moving productions facilities and
    jobs abroad, Toshiba's American companies are steadily expanding the extent
    to which their products are manufactured in the United States. Today,
    Toshiba employs thousands of Americans in 21 states from New York to Texas
    to California. It is these Americans who have played a large and crucial
    part in earning Toshiba its reputation for producing top quality products,
    reliable service, and ongoing innovation that millions of American consumers
    and industrial customers know they can trust.

       These bonds of cooperation are signs of our commitment to America. We
    earnestly wish to continue our efforts to develop our relationship with

    Message: 45244
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Toshiba (4)
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 20:33:00

    America.

       We ask our American friends to work with us and help us to do so.

                                                           Joichi Aoi
                                                           President/CEO
                                                           Toshiba Corporation

    Mudge Rose Guthrie Alexander & Ferdon, 2121 K Street N.W., Suite 700,
    Washington, D.C. 20037, is registered under the Foreign Agents Registration
    Act as an agent of Toshiba Corporation for the research, writing,
    publication and dissemination of this document. The material is filed with
    the Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., where the registration
    statement is available for public inspection. Registration does not indicate
    approval of the contents of this document by the United States Government.

    Message: 45245
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last few
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 21:31:49

    I hear they rehired the people who resigned.

    Rev. Beau

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