### Apollo BBS Archive - July 9, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 02:42:57

    Excellent idea, that -- the scotch-tape store at Metro.  Can we play
    endless-loop Kitaro cassettes through the store intercom?
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Yeh, either Kitaro or some of the Live Crew's best stuff.  We could have
     2:simulated Marijuana scent blowing gently out the door.  That'll bring them
     3:in.
     4:
     5:What to do another number on JC?

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 02:44:53

    You win!!  Though I might also add:

    "Babe Ruth Go to hell!  American, you die!"

                -- Japanese Battle Cry of WW II

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 67282
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 18:55:24

    Re:  "Between 2% and 4% are in hemophiliacs who
    contracted the disease from a blood transfusion."

    Did anyone read in the paper today where a local doctor was sued for
    $28,000,000 because he gave blood to a baby that was contaminated with AIDS.
     The baby later caught AIDS.  This is a good example of several things that
    are terribly wrong with our country.  The doctor didn't know the blood was
    contaminated.  Why is he at fault?  His malpractice insurance only went up
    to $3,000,000.  The doctor's life is a reck.  What insurance company would
    risk giving him insurance again?  Where is he going to come up with
    $25,000,00?  The lawyers ended up with $9,000,000.  There is no justice.  If
    something goes wrong, don't go after the guilty party; go after the rich
    party.  The greed of people today is absolutely incredible.  The people on
    the jury had to be absolutely incredibly stupid.  The layers and judges have
    a real racket going in this country.  They all grow rich at tax payers
    expense.  And recently someone asked why medical expenses were so high.  Now
    you know.

    Message: 67283
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 18:56:56

    Re:  "By the way, how does one go about trying to take God's place?  Is it
    hard or easy?  Any clues."

    You might ask Satan.  He tried once and lost everything.

    Message: 67284
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ronnie Barlow.
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 19:00:21

    There is no justice in this country except for the rich.  And there is no
    justice in this country for the rich either.  I feel sorry for Ronnie
    Barlow if what Ed said is true.  Ed distorts facts a lot.

    Message: 67285
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 20:25:43

            How many times do you get to ote.

            The system only lets you ote ONCE on any given question.
    After you have oted...  typing in the cmd will only show you the
    results to date.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67286
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod on Jeff L.
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 20:39:04

            Jeff, don't buy the dogma that Rod tries to spread about Christians.
    There is no hell like Rod describes, it is all exaggeration he gets by
    piecing together far out ideas from extremists who claim to be the WORD
    in Christian ideals.  It is Rod's inability to use rational thinking and
    a 'grain of salt'...that he can't sort this out himself.

            As for the far out Christians...  Remember, they are mortal MEN, and
    are subject to error, so because they say it is so, does not make it so.
    GOD himself has the last word here...not man, and ABSOLUTELY not Rod!

            I like your 'style' Mr Mad Max!

                            Yours too Mr Cummings!

                                    And Mr Carter........

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67287
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on John
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 20:42:54

            See, John Cummings tries to answer Rod...  And Rod tells John to
    "Grow up" and that he can't "understand simple things".

            So, who was 'mocking' who....  Rod talks with forked tongue!

            No Rod, I don't hate you...

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67288
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Gays
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 21:17:46

    Wow.  Seems to me that we have a lot of anal retentive people on this board.

    Message: 67289
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/religion
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 22:02:11

            Let's not compare what you say is the scientific method against what
    you say is the religious method.  Let's try to discuss logically or
    reasonably that which we find to be interesting. E.g., I think it is
    interesting to note that the evolution of mankind appears to be from the
    less complex to the more complex, and I submit that that type of motion or
    development demands a plan and the mind of a Planner. Do you dispute or
    argue that point? Or do you simply state that if Rod doesn't like it, it
    must be false? Do you argue against evolution? Can you dismiss the
    development of the world? Do you ever think about it? Please? --John C.--

    Message: 67290
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa/Aids
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 22:11:30

            I don't know how many anal retentive people are here (Ann says she
    takes a lot of prunes and fiber, so maybe she doesn't count.) But I know
    that I have maintained a tight sphincter and kept back to the wall or a
    corner when I had to take showers in a transient barracks in an outfit with
    a reputation for playing "drop the soap."
            That, however, has no bearing on the point at issue, which is that
    gay and bi-sexual men are overwhelming majorityies of AIDS victims, with IV
    drug users most of the rest. That does not make this a national problem,
    only a problem for fagots and druggies. Right?

    Message: 67291
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: B-Day
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 22:22:57

            Re: GT-B-Day party

            We have 9 people that posted they plan on attending....

    I would like to see Carol Graham, Steve M, Jack Flash, Roger M. and a few
    other TRY to attend the GT on the 28th of this month....  How about you?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67292
    Author: $ Steven Carls
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: B-Day
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 22:54:55

    I will try to attend Cliff.  I plan to be in Phoenix that weekend, but might
    have to go to Sedona, it also depends on work here in Tucson, and my
    homework in Summer School, EH???
     " The ATARI WILDCAT "  Steven Carls

    Message: 67293
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Baseball
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 23:13:43

    That's a good point there.  Could be a lot of people aren't bothering
    to vote because they "don't care".  What that really means, though, is
    that they don't care whether we have a baseball stadium or not.  I'd
    be willing to bet that they do care, though, about having extra sales
    tax added to their cost of living.  Just another example of how the
    people who do care about an issue (i.e. the pressure groups) get their
    agendas passed because the rest of the people, though they may be in
    the majority, don't care enough.

    Message: 67294
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ronnie Barlow
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 23:18:18

    Blacks are much more likely to be victims of violent crimes than
    whites.  Now if we could only get the black vote on the side of the
    gun vote, we'd have quite a powerful lobby going there.

    Message: 67295
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Baseball & Sales Tax
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 00:05:52

            Do you realize that if it goes though, that will add about $30.00
    to the price of a new ($12,000) car...  I just do not like baseball that
    much!  Why can't ticket sales generate the funds needed?  Why do us
    non-baseball fans have to SUBSIDIZE the sport?

            One quarter cent here for sports...another one half cent in
    ADDITIONAL sales tax for the highways...  (after to polititians PROMISED the
    last half cent raise would cover it)  Lies and more lies, yet voters
    forgive and approve more taxes.  WAKE UP ARIZONA!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67296
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod and John C.
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 00:27:38

    John; I admire your attempt to rationalize with Rod.
    Good luck. You'll need it.

    Message: 67297
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Contrasts
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 01:00:41

    Ansell Adams was good at constrast. The fact is that here we live
    amoung people who work to erase contrast.
    Vietnam politics; My definition = International murder
                      Nixon's def   = Police action.
    Remove contrast. Make the picture soft, undefinable..without form
    or substance or glaring differences. People don't want to be left out.
    Homosexuals     ; My definition = Behavioural problem
                      Theirs        = Inherited, gene difference.
    Alcoholism      ; My definition = Behavioural problem
                      Theirs        = Inherited, gene malfucntion.
    Child/Wife beaters; My def      = Behavioural problem
                      Theirs        = Abused child, recluse, inherited.

    Take away weight of responsibilty. Take away the difference between
    good and bad. Take away the contrast. Too much salt in your diet,
    too much sugar, too much fat, too much caffeine, too much meat,
    too much red dye #5. Too much contrast. Fade to black. fade to white
    but don't allow both because that's called grey. There's no contrast
    in grey. No difference, no truth, no lies, no good, no bad, not hot
    nor cold. Luke warm, not even that.
    A communist utopian dream. Equality . Balance. Perfection.
    Sleep.

    Message: 67298
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beau Dog/theft
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 02:52:53

    Oh yes, very real, I assure you.  How I came to learn of it is none of your
    affair.  Which book(s)?  One written by a certain Mad Arab which was
    "donated" in the 1920s by a celebrated American millionaire.  It was kept in
    a wire cage in such a manner that one could turn the pages with a wooden
    attachment and read through the bars.  It wasn't exactly advertised -- in
    fact, if you were to ask, they'd deny all knowledge or possession of it.
    Very few were granted permission to view it; and I was never one of those.
    The others were perhaps less known, though paradoxically better known -- or
    at least better acknowledged.  Sorry to disappoint you, but I shan't be
    providing a bibliography.

    Message: 67299
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cummings
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 03:10:32

    Of course they're entertainments; all of Chesterton's mysteries are
    entertainments in the sense that the plots are of secondary importance --
    even trivial.  That does not alter the fact that most of his stories exhibit
    a disdain for the  absurd deductions employed by many fictional detectives.
    If he was, in this one story -- in the middle of this one story and nowhere
    else -- parodying that particular convention of detective fiction, then he
    was being very subtle indeed.  And I think it safe to say that, while he is
    read largely for his writing style, wit, and his metaphysical and
    theological speculations, the stories are, after all, mysteries, and should
    endeavor to satisfy the essential requirements of that genre.  Indeed, he
    does generally give the impression of attempting to do so; otherwise, it
    would be unnecessary to go to the lengths which he does to mislead the
    reader and provide twist endings.  That is why I think it entirely possible
    -- unless he was in a very whimsical mood indeed -- that the absurd
    deduction under examination is in fact intended to be taken seriously.
    Aside from all of this, the Father Brown stories are rather forced in their
    conclusions, in his attempt to provide the twist endings which are his
    hallmark (Chesterton's).  They are presented with far too seriously a tone,
    and I do find some of the priest's constant rantings against almost
    everything belonging to other religions (even if they are only other
    divisions of Christianity), his constant digs and accusations at other
    cultures, to be rather dimwitted and not a little superstitious.  His
    diatribe on the evils of Arabic rug design were rather childish.

    Message: 67300
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/bigotry
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 03:14:24

    Good sense, justice, and dignity are never matters of fashion.  If there is
    anything worse than someone who falls prey to the fallacies and shameful
    attitudes prevalent in his time, it is his apologist, who stands outside the
    localized temporal influence and who therefore has no excuse whatsoever for
    excusing rude and uncivilized behavior.

    Message: 67301
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/cosmology
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 03:32:57

    No, it is not a fact that movement without plan results in chaos -- if you
    define a plan as the result of a rational mind, or if you define chaos as
    lack of organization or pattern.  Nor does the universe show development --
    in the sense you speak of.  The universe is irrevocably heading toward
    entropy, a state which I'm sure you'll agree is the very definition of
    "static."  It is a very common fallacy, however, to assume that this process
    of degeneration precludes the generation of organized forms along the way;
    in fact, it is quite the reverse.  Without the dissipation, the forms you
    see would never have been generated.
    A snowflake is certainly a detailed and organized thing; but it is also the
    result of some very chaotic events, and I think you would look very foolish
    indeed to insist that the hand of God forms every snowflake.
    Your argument that existence implies caus is very airtight -- right up until
    you contradict yourself by asserting that God has no cause.
    Essentially, you imagine that randomness works  like a room full of monkeys
    hammering away on typewriters.  And perhaps unconstrained randomness does.
    But what you call random is not truly random; what you call chaos is not
    without law; and the existence of pattern and organization does not
    necessitate sentient design.

    Message: 67302
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Thornburg/usurping
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 03:36:08

    I once asked Satan, who told me that his fall was the result of winning too
    many billiard games against the Allmighty.  He is a jealous (and petty) God,
    don't you know.

    Message: 67303
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 03:37:09

    I was wondering when you were going to take the bait.

    Message: 67304
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Strawmen
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 07:05:56

    I think what we have here, gentlemen, is a board full of slippery
    Christians.  Try to pin down their beliefs and they will cry "Strawman!" and
    decry your statements as mockery.

    Message: 67305
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/God's place
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 07:47:03

    Or me. Or you. Or John Cummings. Or James White. Or Sysop. Or anyone.

    Message: 67306
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ronnie Barlow
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 07:48:38

    This is a very interesting case. Was Ronnie Barlow justified in using deadly
    force against his attacker ? If you are threatened by a person who is armed
    with a bottle, can you kill that person ?

    Message: 67307
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/evolution
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 07:50:51

    Or why God has such a penchant for beetles and cockroaches. I figure that
    long after man has disappeared from the face of the earth, these creatures
    will still be around.

    Message: 67308
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 09:06:17

    I agrree with clif, the bible was *WRITTEN* by mortal men, some there are
    going to be some mistakes in the interpetation of god's words. If you notice
    even today people will only hear what they want to hear, and I'm shure it
    was the same way when the people who wrote the bible interpited what god had
    told then. Please don't go on asking me what prove I have that god actually
    talked to anybody, I'll just ask you what prove you have that he didn't.
    I just threw that in so we wouldn't spend time discussing that senseless
    point. If you read history books, you will find that the christian faith
    during midevil times was perverted by greedy and power hungry people, what
    we have to do now is sort out the lies and misinterpetations from that era,
    and find the true message that god was trying to give us.You have to look at
    the bible as a book of legends, the word of god was for centuries carried
    only by word of mouth, and any person with half a mind will understand that
    you have to read between the lines to get to the bottom of it. Question:
    Have any of you ever played the game, were you sit around in a circle, and
    one person will wisper something in his neighbors ear, and so on. By the
    time it gets back to that person, the message will be different, but most
    propably the context is still the same. I think the same thing happend to
    the bible, and when I say bible I mean both old and new testament. What is
    important is to understand the basic message that is being conveyed. If you
    look in the new testament, I think the message is love, love yourself and
    your fellow man, nothing I can see wrong with that standard. The old
    testament is a history book, and conveys moral standards, which until today
    have been incorparated into the laws of most
    countries. I also see nothing wrong with the laws god gave us in the old
    testament, like you shall not kill, or you shall not steal, or you shall not
    lust after your neighbors wife or husband. Somebody tell me what is wrong
    with those messages? Most stories in the old testament have a moral to them,
    you just have to look past the thous and stuff like that. I don't see
    anything wrong with that ether. I think when we did god or whatever his name
    may be, will judge each person on their merits and how they lived their
    lives, not if the were christians or not. He gave us the ground work in his
    books, all we have to do is live by them, and I don't literally, but by the
    context, the meaning of his words, the morals of the storys, that sort of
    thing.
    Well that's all for now, later days
      THE MAD MAX

    Message: 67310
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / Mock
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 11:52:09

       I was going to withhold agreeing with some of the other messages from
    some of Apollo's users concerning you demanding a 'non-mocking, open-minded'
    reply.
       Then I saw your mocking, closed-minded response to Jeff Lochansky.
       To quote a passage from a certain book that you despise so fiercely, you
    need to remove the 2x4 out of your eye before you should concern yourself
    with the sliver you seem so intent to pluck out of ours.
       How do you expect us, as the Christians you demand so many answers from,
    to continue to respond from the heart while you continue to verbally sock us
    in the gut?
       Your 'summarizing' of the Christian doctrine is so paper thin and
    distorted that we would probably not as much as respond...that is, if we
    didn't fear that you would drag some unsuspecting soul into believing your
    twisted, hateful view of Christianity was truth.
       Christ tells us to turn the other cheek when we are struck. But he also
    tells us that we needn't continue to share and discuss the gospel with
    someone who hates it so. No one in the history of Apollo has proven Matthew
    7:6 to be more true, than you, Rod.
       And lest you tirade about how I'm such a hateful Christian, trust that I
    still love you as a person, Rod. I remember once in the past when I severed
    ties with you over things you said. I was still young in the faith, and was
    very shaken over your proud blasphemies. But I'm stronger now, Rod. Much
    stronger. I don't expect you'll ever change, but more unbelievable things
    have happened.

       If you think yourself to be so much smarter or better than us dumb
    closed-minded Christians, then you had better start behaving on here the way
    you expect us to behave. You want open-minded dialogue? Open your mind. No
    mockery? Then stop mocking us. The fact that you deny the possibility the
    Christianity proves that you ARE closed-minded, at least in that respect.
    So, before you start shouting at us to do or be something, try practicing
    your speech in front of the mirror first, Rod.
       We care about you, Rod, but sometimes you just make it very difficult for
    us to do so. I won't say that I agree with everything said by some of my
    Christian brothers here on Apollo, but I will stand behind them. Just as
    I'll stand behind you, even though you think us to be some insecure
    individuals who cling on to a non-existent deity for security. I can't say
    that I'll see you in the next world, but I'll be there to help in
    this one at least.
       Just lighten up and open up, ok?

    Message: 67312
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: religion
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 13:48:10

    BRAVO DARYL, BRAVO
    THE MAD MAX

    Message: 67313
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl..
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 14:35:16

            Wow...so well put.

            As Mad Max said...  "BRAVO"....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67314
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 18:05:21

    Re:  "I think what we have here, gentlemen, is a board full of slippery
    Christians.  Try to pin down their beliefs and they will cry "Strawman!" and
    decry your statements as mockery."

    That's not true Dog.  There is a certain amount of banter between believers
    and unbelievers on Apollo, but if you will ask me a sincere intelligent
    question about my beliefs, I will give you a sincere intelligent answer.  I
    don't recall getting any sincere intelligent questions for a long long time.
     Back to you sir!

    Message: 67315
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ugly fashions
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 19:25:38

    "Trailing skirts gave rise to the story that municipal authorities found it
    an unnecessary expense to employ street cleaners for doing what the ladies
    so kindly performed gratis.  The inventor of this joke overlooked the fact
    that ladies seldom walked.  For those who did a chatelaine in the form of a
    negro's head on a chain to fasten up the skirt was introduced in the
    mid-[eighteen]'forties."

    Message: 67316
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Amusing fashion
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 19:32:34

    "Fashion was created in Paris -- but it was the Paris of Louis-Philippe, who
    was laughed at for carrying a big bourgeois umbrella -- in those days still
    a dowdy accessory.  'Those who do not wish to be taken as belonging to the
    vulgar herd," advised a Parisian snob, 'prefer to risk a wetting rather than
    be looked upon as pedestrians in the street, for an umbrella is a sure sign
    that one possesses no carriage.'  To be sure, the Citizen King drove in a
    carriage, sitting between Queen Marie-Amelie and his sister Madame Adelaide,
    who bravely tried to hide him with their large bonnets, as protection
    against assasination attempts, of which there were seven in his reign.
    Immediately after such attacks, society women would call at the Tuileries to
    offer the King their congratulations, wearing clothes which they kept at
    hand for these alarming occasions.  They were known as 'costumes for days on
    which the King's life is attempted' and were simple in form and dark in
    hue."

    Message: 67317
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B/Bigotry
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:14:13

            So, you don't like Chesterton. Do you like Hemingway?

    Message: 67318
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B/ Evolution
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:23:31

            1. I thought I was talking with Rod. Are you there, too?
            2. Please don't tell me what I imagine, or what I think. Please
    consider what I /
    Say, not what you want me to say.
            3. If you'd like to join in this, I'm positing the evolution
    position: e.g. that mankind and all modern beings, evolved from less complex
    beings, perhaps even one-celled animals in ocean slime, etc. And, I submit
    that that development does indeed indicate a progression from less complex
    to more complex.
            4. If you'd care to join, please comment on that position, not on
    something you imagine I may be thinking. If I haven't made it clear enough,
    I'll be glad to clarify, but I think you'll have no difficulty grasping it.
            5. Thank you,            --John C.--

    Message: 67319
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/evolution
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:27:40

            Oh, I love it! Yes, God must love those damn cockroaches, He made so
    many of them, and so many different varieties. And you're right! Roaches,
    sharks, and coelecanth fish will probably here the trumpet on the final day.
    I wonder if there'll be any men.

    Message: 67320
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad Max/Apollo
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:34:35

            Please stick around, Jeff, you may be the best philosopher on the
    Apollo board. And you're offering us something good. Thanks. --John C.--

    Message: 67321
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/Satan
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:53:44

    Oh come on Bob.  You gotta be joking because I somehow do not see you as
    that stupid or gullible or whatever.

    The sceanario is a super intelligent, all powerful creator who makes a group
    of males who are less powerful, and does not have near the same abilities.

    And one of them decides that he wants to be head honcho and actually tries
    to attain that goal.

    Do you expect me to believe this?  I've read Grimm's Fairy Tales, all of
    them at least once and neither do I believe them.

    So, after this person you call Satan tries, the real creator becomes so
    angry that he sentences poor Satan to a small glob of matter for all
    eternity or at least for a very long while.  Sure Bob, sure.

    Wanna buy the Salt River Bridge between Phoenix and Tempe.  I will sell it
    cheap and you can put in a toll booth and make a fortune.  Honest Injun.

    Anyone?

    Message: 67322
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Clif on Rod
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 22:55:59

    John Cummings did not try to answer Rod.  John Cummings avoided my questions
    like he often does.  Get your facts straight.

    Message: 67323
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JC
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 23:04:56

    I do not argue against evolution.  I am an evolutionist.  I do not
    understand your pseudo logic when you say that a plan must have a planner,
    indicating that somewhere out there in the universe is this person who makes
    up these plans.

    Well, John, if there is a planner as you mention then I'd say that either
    the planner's plan went wrong or that the planner is sadistic or that the
    planner is not a good planner and is incapable of simple design as evidenced
    by our sun in relation to this earth.  It is either too cold or too hot over
    most of the globe and subject to real complaints.

    But this would explain my theory that if there is a planner then it must be
    a sadist.

    Ever see someone getting their head removed from their body in an accident?
    Ever see a starving child or hospitals full of all sorts of people with
    serious problems?  Some planner there.

    We have arrived at this point by evolving.  It would be nice to have a daddy
    that watched over us but if that daddy allowed a world to exist like this
    then I'd say that daddy was drunk, or crazy or just plain didn't care about
    his children.

    Of course I could put my blinders on and pretend that everything was rosy.
    This is a form of temporary insanity, by the way and it is understandable
    because this world is such a hell hole from the way it is to the way it is
    designed.

    Many people are insane and some of them stand on corners passing out end of
    the world (rapture) litature.

    Others proclaim that God is punishing us all and that we are all sinners but
    can be saved by believing in God's only son.

    Yes, I know this sounds fantastic but hey, that's the kind of world we live
    in.

                                    Rod

    Message: 67325
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff L.
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 23:16:00

    Good posts Jeff.  You are thinking which would exclude you from the main
    Christian camp.

    Wouldn't you agree that if there was a god that the idea he would want to
    promote would be:

                    All are brother and sister?

    Message: 67281
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JC/random
    Date: 07/08/90  Time: 17:53:32

    Comparing the scientific method to that of the religious method is like
    comparing astromony to astrology.  The former is based upon what we have
    learned from experience and the latter is that which some would like to
    believe but all scientific fact is against it.

    Sure, it would be nice to live a life anywhere from 1 second to 120 years
    and then, after having believed in some dope, get to go to la-la land for
    all of eternity while all of your enemies have to be punished for ever more.

    If this is what you choose to belive then obviously you cannot yet
    understand simple things.  Perhaps someday you will as it is certainally
    possible and not to be ruled out.

    Think about what you believe in for once in your life and stop making those
    ridiculous statements, John.  Grow up.

                                            Rod

    Message: 67326
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 07/09/90  Time: 23:50:33

    First I'd like to thank J cummings for calling me a phisosopher, I don't
    think I've ever been called that, and I do take it as one of, the nicest
    compliments I've ever been made, Thanks again John.
    As what rod saied in his last post, yes I agree all men are created equal,
    and we basiclly are all brothers and sisters. What we have to do now is to
    make all the bigots in the world understand it.
    I personnaly think god gave us, humanity ,this world to live on and take
    care of. As of latly, I don/t think we have been doing such a good job
    though. What you really have to do is read things like the old testament
    very crefully and between the lines, and you will see a moral to every
    story. Thats what the book is, a guideline if you want to call it that, not
    a rulebook. I think gods original intention was for us to find the hidden
    values in his teachings, and to trully be called the intelligent species of
    this world, we should be able to figure this out. The same thing goes for
    the new testament, I don't think jesus intended for us, humanity , to take
    everything quite as literally as some people do when it comes to the
    scriptures.For example, the statement that if you do not believe in jesus,
    you will not go to *heaven*. Don't take this so literally, look at the
    meaning of what he said, I think, he meant believe in what he was teaching,
    which basiclly is LOVE. The part about going to hell, is just some poor
    souls own interpetation of what he heard, and not really getting the full
    meaningof the message given to him. There is nothing wrong with that eather,
    because this writer was only HUMAN.

    It would be marvelous if jesus or god could have done their own writing, but
    if that was so we wouldn't have anything to talk about. Wouldn't life be
    boring if the world was perfect? Think about it. Would we be honestly
    intelligent if the creator would have placed us in a perfect world?
    You remember the old saying: you only learn from your mistakes.
    I think that is a statement strait from god. God gave us the basic
    knowledge, all we have to do is learn how to interpit it correctly.
    There is also nothing wrong with god giving us some rules, don't you have
    rules in your house? And don't you punish the offenders to your rules?
    Does this make you cruel? No I say if god created this world and put us
    uponit, he has every right as the landlord to make a few rules of conduct
    and use of his world.
    Lets just hope we honestly don't make the landlord mad, he might kick us of
    and we might not like were we have to go.
    Well thats it from
       THE MAD MAX
    PS atleast for tonight

    Message: 67328
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl, CC
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 00:13:04

    I believe that those people who are temporarily insane, hereinafter known
    as The Christian Camp or CC, believe, in their insanity, that I am mocking
    them.

    I am not mocking with the exception of the two posts I had zapped last
    week.  I am bringing up valid points that somehow make the CC people blind.

    Whenever an unanswerable question, in regards to answering with real logic
    and not an evading tactic is asked, one that deals with the feasibility of
    a creator actually existing then I am accused of mocking.

    How utterly convenient.  But, I suppose to the CC, this would be their way
    of overlooking the question and that takes them conveniently off the hook.

    I see.

    I suppose that I am mocking now, huh?  It is difficult to deal with a bunch
    of CC's.

    Insanity is necessary and allows one to cope in a rough situation.  It is
    Mother Nature's way of allowing people to function.  When I say 'insanity' I
    am not knocking it because I do understand it.  I am being clinical.  Once a
    problem is brought to light then it is easier to deal with.
    s

    Message: 67329
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: D -last
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 00:13:36

    I've been in some pretty bad situations in the past and have experienced
    what the CC's are going through.  Yes, I too have had conversations with
    made up entities, complete with answers.

    But it kept me going at the time although what I have found since is
    solid.  All I am trying to do is point out I have discovered a more
    realistic avenue, that's all.

    Many of you know me and should realize that I am not a malicious person who
    does not care about my brother and sister.  I just want to see you get
    better.

    Message: 67330
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff L.
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 00:16:31

    I wonder what type of pen God would use, Bic or Papermate II?  Maybe he'd
    use one of those big display models that we see from time to time.

    He'd have to wrote in every known language as the interpitations would leave
    a lot to be desired.

    Message: 67331
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Rod Williams
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 01:04:56

    Again, pathetically you fail at hiding your lies and disguising them
    as "clinical", innocent questions. How brave of you to admit your folly.
    Your so called clinical diatribe failed to mask the clumsy opinions
    at the end. Yeah, I could try to sound serious about helping people
    too.... especially when I'm so far gone Like you Roddy.
    Hate has no disguise. It comes in ten million forms, but there is
    no disguising it. You can't breathe a letter here without ending the
    sentence with poison.
    Each of us are at far ends so opposite that there is no middle ground.
    I get sick and tired of these anti Christian messages that reek
    odiferously of hate and despise and yet claim purity and perfection
    in all of its ultimate humanity.

    Yeah. Right.

    Just look around you Roddy. You see this world you hate so much?
    It's in this condition *BECAUSE* people with the same ideas like
    you have steered it that way. And you know what? It's just gonna
    get more like you. Because more people are starting to think that
    their only chance is the final chance.
    You're far too selfish in your opinions to claim open minded-ness.
    Sickness, misery and despise loves company...dont you?

    Message: 67332
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B. Et al
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 01:19:49

    Your dancing around John Cummings questions are proof that what you
    say and what you do are two, completely unrelated things entirely.
    You're guilty of the same B.S. you accuse Christians of.

    Totally amusing.

    Message: 67333
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Japanese Book
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 01:52:19

            A translation of the best-selling Japanese book called 'The Japan
    That Can Say No.'    [U]ploaded by Todd Reese in IBM ZIP format, and can be
    found in the [L]ibrary under the name JAPAN.ZIP.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67334
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 01:59:09

    I think Mike can read but can he comprehend?

    Message: 67335
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 07/10/90  Time: 02:01:14

    When I write a message, any message, I try to interject humor.  I suppose
    when my post deals with your "sacred cow" then it ain't funny.

    In fact it probably insults the majority of those who take religion
    seriously.

    It seems after all these years of my writing about what some believe to be
    most sacred, their deity, that my fingers would have fallen off or I would
    be struck by a large bolt of lightening.

    In all fairness to my questioning mind I must take the course I have chosen
    until such time it no longer fills my needs.

    But I guess it gives me a certain perverted delight to try to visualize
    what some go through in their minds trying to understand me.

    When I call god a dope or a dummy I am doing so in hopes that he is looking
    in on me trying to decide whether to slice little bits of skin from my body
    while pouring salt over the raw areas or just throw his mighty arms up in
    disgust.  Perhaps I will receive the same punishment that he meted out for
    Satan or perhaps much worse.

    Who knows, who cares?

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