### Apollo BBS Archive - July 6, 1991

    Mail from Roger Mann
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 09:13:06

    I have not reached your state of freedom, but I do share your feelings
    towards a god who is as evil as the god of the OT and NT who would punish
    his creation.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:We'll have to get together at some GT or other.  What part of town do you
     2:live in?  I'm located near 7th St. & Thomas.
     3:
     4:Religion has been used to control men from very early on.  It is a 'party
     5:line' that seems to be working quite well among the majority.  But then
     6:again when a child hears the word 'god' used almost daily in our society
     7:then what can one expect?  I bought it for awhile and that is why my
     8:daughter is named, Christian.  Oh well.

    Mail from Apollo SysOp
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 12:12:00

            Hello
            I said nothing about your posts in the FIN SIG, but NEEDLESS
    profanity is not to be used there.    As you recall, the FIN SIG replaced
    the DEV SIG.  In the DEV SIG it was allowed, because at that time it only
    had a few atheist members.   When it opened up to the rest of the users, we
    dropped the 'NEEDLESS' profanity.  I hope you understand, and you are NOT
    BEING YELLED AT!

            That post would have been fine in the COSmos SIG.   The FIN is sorta
    in-be-tween.....  if ya know what I mean.

            Thank you!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I didn't know that it had been changed but now I do.  Thanks and okay.
     2:Have fun with your Cuda and if you feel brave then I'll put my Dodge Van
     3:pinkslip up against your Cuda in a quarter mile race, anytime, anywhere.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4908
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: More Critique
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 07:34:36

    > I'm glad to see so much critique on it.

    It's a pleasure to help.

    > That is why I put new stuff up here; sort of a test market.

    So when are you gonna test some more of the fun stuff?

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1880
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Williams
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 05:55:13

    Logical conclusion? I don't think that you would know logic if it slapped
    you one upside the head!
     I, too, enjoy the faculties that the good Lord provided me with, and I have
    no need of protection, since I am involved in a lifetime monogamous
    relationship.
     As for the others, well, people aren't really dying from AIDS. They are
    dying from a lack of assuming personal responsibility for their actions. If
    one wishes to live that lifestyle, then he or she must be prepared to pay
    the consequences that will surely result.

    Message: 1881
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 06:15:02

    Stop generalizing.  Plenty of people did no more than go to the dentist, or
    receive a blood transfusion, and ended up with a death sentence.  Many more
    were in monogamous relationsips (or even married) with the wrong person.

    To me, fatal diseases that strike randomly don't support the concept of an
    all-loving god.

    Message: 1882
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Nick on AIDS
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 10:46:47

    Did you see my AIDS post on the BB? Comment? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1883
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul/logic
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 13:34:58

    Them's pretty strange words coming from a Christian.  (logic)

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 76377
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 05:31:06

    Daryl and I are not each other's type when it comes to lovers. I do,
    however, admire a person who will stand up for what he believes to be right,
    even when it seems to be unpopular in present surroundings.
     You, on the other hand. shold probably be nothing more than a big question
    mark, since I doubt that even you know what you believe. Your comment
    concerning "self-righteousness" indicates little more than your total
    ignorance of anything resembling a Christian ethic, since we who name the
    name of Christ KNOW that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the
    sight of Him in whom we place our faith.

    Message: 76378
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Billy B. on idiocy
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 05:34:28

    Well, you could have refused the appointment. Now I guess at least one of us
    can relate to some of Cliff's feelings.

    Message: 76379
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon's postS
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 05:47:00

    Wordy little rascal last night, weren't you?
    Enjoyed them, though.

    Message: 76380
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Iraq
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 05:50:13

     I seem to remember voicing the opinion early on in the Desert Storm
    conflict, that the war wouldn't be over as long as Saddam Hussein still
    lived and even one Iraqi had as much as a BB gun.
     Looks like Saddam is doing his best to make me out a prophet!

    Message: 76381
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: News Today
    Subject: yesterday
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 06:07:52

    It's worth mentioning that KTAR's helicopter pilot was killed when his
    chopper crashed into an empty home yesterday afternoon.  I made a habit of
    listening to his afternoon traffic reports, and grew to appreciate his
    concise reporting.  I'm sure thousands of Phoenicians felt the same way.

    Message: 76382
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Beau-Court Format
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 07:32:58

    > Thanks for the files.  They look good, even though the
    > formatting is pretty awful (hyphenation on top of hyphenation)

    Yeah, they can be pretty screwed-up looking.  As I understand it, they get
    to Compu$erve via a fairly roundabout way and get reformatted a couple times
    along the way.

    Still the fastest way I know of for the public to get hold of the decisions
    themselves, though.

    Message: 76383
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Rod & Rights
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 07:33:33

    > It appears that the population of this nation are in worse
    > shape than when King George was collecting taxes.  Now we have
    > Pres. George plus a very lame Supreme Court that seems to be
    > systematically usurping our rights.

    Rubbish!  We're much better off in many respects than our ancestors.  And
    all you're seeing in the Supreme Court is the back swing of a pendulum,
    heading toward a more centrist position.  A position that, in many
    instances, is giving control of local matters back to the localities.

    > Any organization that springs up with the intent of making
    > changes seems to be infiltrated by the FBI.

    Perhaps "seems to be" is the operative phrase here.  You're reading too much
    of what you want to hear, Rod.  And, unfortunately, believing it, too.

    > It seems that their next step will be to come around and gather
    > up weapons and after that is done the people are at their mercy
    > more than ever.

    On this count I fear you are right.  You're also in the minority.  Folks are
    just too comfortable to fight for something so basic as liberty.

    Message: 76384
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff-Upload Info
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 07:34:03

    >         Bill, this is what you see after an [U]pload...
    > [1] Type computer...  well, so I know what it runs on...
    > Obvious
    >
    > [2] [Filename] This is the one I want you to read from the
    > above instructions.  This plainly askes 'The complete program
    > name including extention'.
    >
    > [3] [Brief File Description] Every one seems to get this 3rd
    >  one, but sometimes this is ALL I get!

    Fair enough.  Sorry for the confusion.

    Message: 76385
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul / "Poem"
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 08:28:08

        I'm not exactly sure as to which "poem" you are referring to.

        Glad your fourth was great!

    Rev 21:3-4
    Daryl

    Message: 76386
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger / 76341
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 08:49:08

        What's a BBB?

        If my "hymn" offended you, perhaps it should.  You have mocked me
    for my view that 'art' like Serrano's is an abomination to God.  [76193/
    76218]  All in all, however, it is SATIRE, Roger.  It is in no way, as
    anyone who knows me can attest, reflective of any personal belief I have in
    God.  My God is a holy, right and just God, who cares for the broken in
    spirit [Ps 51.17, 34.18, Luke 10.17-18], but crushes the proud, the
    self-righteous ones that rebel against Him [Luke 20.17-18]. Your responses
    to my messages regarding Serrano in light of Scripture are the ones that
    seem to bring the above into question.
        Sure, the "hymn" (if it were not satire written to make a point) could
    be deemed offensive.  But no more offensive than claiming to be a "Christian
    agnostic."

    Message: 76387
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Me
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 08:54:08

        If people asked me those things (how's the wife, daughter, bird, dogs,
    etc.) then I would certainly respond.

        By the way, we are all doing great!

        But my posts are responses to those topics of conversation that are
    taking place on the board.  The fact that my posts are primarily of a
    religious nature is because most of the posts written to me and for me are
    of this same subject matter.

        The part of me that was changed was the despairing part. The empty part
    that, up until now, could not find what it was looking for. The part that
    almost made me kill myself. The part that had me living in a constant hue of
    black loneliness, with a touch of humor to hide it from the rest of the
    world. Do you want that part returned to my life? I hope not.

    Message: 76388
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Reality
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 08:58:43

        Ok, let me know when you plan on altering your personal reality to allow
    you to jump off the face of the earth.  I'll be there with popcorn and a pad
    and paper to record your number of attempts and progress.

    Message: 76389
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/Your Posts
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 09:03:22

        I'll have to read them and reply offline. The wife is telling me that my
    breakfast is ready. (Actually, she told me it was ready about 10 minutes
    ago, and I'm afraid that if I don't get down there soon, I'm going to be a
    display model for "food fashions" ifyaknowwhatimean.)

    Message: 76390
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/rags
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 09:21:55

    And yet you display your righteousness for all of us to admire and excoriate
    those who do not measure up to your "lofty" standards.

    Message: 76391
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/hymn
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 09:23:43

    Hooey.

    Message: 76392
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on suicide
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 10:10:44

    Re: your .... "No wonder Cliff gets suicidal. This is idiocy."

    Welcome to the club! Why did you think Cliffy turned it over to you? *
    Heh  Heh  Heh *   *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76393
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl\your life
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 10:28:19

    No I don't want you to return to that part of your life! So, hows your wife,
    daughter, bird and dogs??? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76394
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on reality
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 10:29:42

    You deserve a round of applause on those 5 posts on reality. Good reading.
                                *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76395
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: News
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 10:42:32

    Read an article in the paper today about two Oakland dentists that
    advertised that they have tested negative for the AIDS virus and they are
    catching a lot of criticism from the S.F. district attorney's office and
    AIDS activitists groups! All of them want the dentists to stop such
    advertising and want a published apology! I ask, "What for"? They said the
    dentists viloated the state's Business and Professions Code! I say
    "Ridiculous"! With almost weekly claims that some dentist or doctor gave
    AIDS to their patients, what is the matter with this? What is it that these
    AIDS activist groups want to hid? The fact that the disease is spreading and
    a danger now to all of us, regardless of race, creed or sexual preference??
    If the disease isn't so very contagious, then why do the police that broke
    up a gay protest movement last week wear gloves - ditto dentists and
    doctors, ditto the nurses and nurses aids that are around the people with
    AIDS?? I am and hve been very confused about all of this from the very first
    time I heard about this disease! To be honest, I don't want - wouldn't want
    to be around a person that had it - yet on the other hand I feel so guilty
    about feeling that way! Why? I know the disease has a stigma - but how are
    we to get around that? I would appreciate a discussing on the subject or at
    least some comments. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
    P.S. And the dentists said since the advertisment came out, their business
    dropped way off? WHY?

    Message: 76396
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 13:08:37

      The Populist movement also made a remarkable attempt to
    create a new and independent culture for the country's
    farmers.  The Alliance Lecture Bureau reached all over the
    country; it had 35,000 lecturers.  The Populists poured out
    books and pamphlets from their printing presses.  Woodward
    says:
           One gathers from yellowed pamphlets that the agrarian
         ideologists undertook to re-educate their countrymen
         from the ground up.  Dismissing "history as taught in
         our schools" as "practically valueless", they undertook
         to write it over--formidable columns of it, from the
         Greek down.  With no more compunction they turned all
         hands to the revision of economics, political theory,
         law, and government.
      The *National Economist*, a Populist magazine, had 100,000
    readers.  Goodwyn counts over a thousand Populist journals
    in the 1890s.  There were newspapers like the *Comrade*,
    published in the cotton country of Louisiana, and the
    *Toiler's Friend*, in rural Georgia.  Also, *Revolution*
    was published in Georgia.  In North Carolina, the Populist
    printing plant was burned.  In Alabama, there was the
    *Living Truth*.  It was broken into in 1892, its type
    scattered, and the next year the shop was set afire, but the
    press survived and the editor never missed an issue.
      Hundreds of poems and songs came out of the Populist
    movement, like "The Farmer Is the Man":
         ... the farmer is the man
         The Farmer is the man
         Lives on credit till the fall
         With the interest rates so high
         It's a wonder he don't die
         And the mortgage man's the one that gets it all.

         The farmer is the man
         The farmer is the man
         Lives on credit till the fall
         And his pants are wearing thin
         His condition it's a sin
         He's forgot that he's the man that feeds them all.
      Books written by Populist leaders, such as Henry Demarest
    Lloyd's *Wealth Against Commonwealth*, and William Harvey
    Coin's *Financial School*, were widely read.  An Alabama
    historian of that time, William Garrott Brown, said about
    the Populist movement that "no other political movement--not
    that of 1776, nor that of 1860 - 1861--ever altered Southern
    life so profoundly."
      According to Lawrence Goodwyn, if the labor movement had
    been able to do in the cities what the Populists did in the
    rural areas, "to create among urban workers a culture of
    cooperation, self-respect, and economic analysis," there
    might have been a great movement for change in the United
    States.  There were only fitful, occasional connections
    between the farmer and labor movements.  Neither spoke
    eloquently enough to the other's needs.  And yet, there were
    signs of a common consciousness that might, under different
    circumstances, lead to a unified, ongoing movement.
      Norman Pollack says, on the basis of a close study of
    midwestern Populist newspapers, that "Populism regarded
    itself as a class movement, reasoning that farmers and
    workers were assuming the same material position in
    society."  An editorial in the *Farmer's Alliance* spoke of
    a man working fourteen to sixteen hours a day: "He is
    brutalized both morally and physically.  He has no ideas,
    only propensities, he has no beliefs, only instincts."
    Pollack sees that as a homespun version of Marx's idea of
    workers' alienation from his human self under capitalism,
    and finds many other parallels between Populist and Marxist
    ideas.

    Message: 76399
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/rights
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 13:52:29

    Arizona is a police state.

    Message: 76400
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/reality
    Date: 07/06/91  Time: 13:55:33

    What type of reality are we talking about?  I don't believe it is the same
    one.  Besides, I've already tried jumping off the earth and it didn't work
    very well.

    So, you were sad and hurt and lost and now you've found religion.  I suppose
    you could have done worse but then again you've could have done a lot better
    too.  Insanity usually strikes when things are darkest.

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