### Apollo BBS Archive - March 11 - 20, 1991

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    $ Rod        Williams   00:36:33 (1200)

    Main Menu command:V

    03/21/91  The question is:  Should Bill Burkett 'Apollo Master & Arms' be
    given SysOp Powers to help carry out his job on this system.  The main power
    in question is to be able to [Z]ap or [UIP] any BBS user's post if need be.
    A BIG responsibility for sure and your ballot is requested.

    [A] Yes
    [B] No
    [C] I don't care one way or the other.

    How do you vote [A-C] or [CR] to abort:$

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 2    [B] 0    [C] 0

    Main Menu command:B

    *=* Public Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 73703
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie on lakes
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 05:48:11

    Goldwater lake? Gordon was talking about water skiing, Annie! You can cast a
    line with a light lure practically across Goldwater lake! And Watson lake is
    a puddle a good part of the year! And, as I said, it's not too easy to water
    ski behind an electric trolling moter, which is all that's allowed on Lynx!
    Sheesh! Catch up on the conversations girl!

    Message: 73704
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/freeways
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 05:51:25

    Considering the fact that you drive one of the few cars on the American road
    that can be overtaken by a horse drawn hay rack, you shouldn't venture onto
    the freeways at all!(smile)

    Message: 73705
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on lakes
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 08:57:36

    I knew that! I just wanted to show my expertise regarding Prescott.
    Actually, Lynx and Goldwater are puddles too, but such a beautiful setting.
                                    -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73706
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: MLK day again???
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 09:03:11

    Hey guys! It seems we are going to get a THIRD chance to vote of a MLK day
    and save the Superbowl for Phoenix!!!! Wheee - how lucky can we get?? Just
    to think how considerate our politicians are to give us three (3) tries at
    this - just in case people may change their minds!! Us and poor little New
    Hampshire are the only two states that don't have a King day. Gads, we do
    not want to be shame faced in front of the nation do we? We don't want to
    lose the Superbowl do we? We don't mind this kind of blackmail do we?? Naw!
    Of course not! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73707
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Freeway Signals
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 09:17:48

    > Well, I think we are talking through each other...

    I have no idea what you mean by this.

    > A more interesting question is your assertion that these
    > traffic signals "dramatically decreased rush hour accidents."

    Jeff, I don't have any statistical evidence; no scholarly reports.  I worked
    evening rush hours in the DPS Phoenix Communications Center for five years.
    When those metering signals were installed we were all skeptical of their
    effect.  But we saw an almost immediate reduction in the number of rush hour
    accidents.  Take the conclusion or leave it.

    Message: 73708
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: I Don't Get It
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 09:18:08

    It always amazes me to hear of all the troubles others have.  Nearly
    everyone here (except John and I) seems to have trouble getting on the
    freeway; Ann complains from time to time about trouble with the bureaucrats
    at the construction permit office; my wife is constantly coming home from
    Smitty's fuming about some indignity the cashier heaped on her.

    I just don't get it.  How do I miss all these aggravations?  Am I
    unbelievably lucky or just too stupid to realize when I've been slighted?

    Message: 73709
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Freeways
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 10:02:52

    I've never had a problem getting up to speed on those few times when I've
    had to enter a controlled ramp during rush hour.  In fact, like someone
    else, I find I've overestimated the freeway speed and need to slow down a
    bit to ease in.

    Message: 73710
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Freeway
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 10:20:09

            The metered freeway on-ramps are a nuisance and waste gas, but I
    have no trouble getting up to speed with my Mopars... Like Dog, in my Cuda,
    I gotta SLOW down!
            What I don't like is in exiting the freeway at Bell road where there
    is a YIELD sign... most people STOP like it's a stop sign, and that pisses
    me off!  I can come around that curve exit, eye ball the traffic, and merge
    with anything..... but sometimes have to slam on the ol'binders because some
    fool is there at a dead stop waiting for traffic to compleatly VANISH before
    he ventures forward.  GEESH!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73711
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/MLK
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 10:30:50

    Re: Us and poor little New Hampshire are the only two states that don't have
    a King day.

            Ann, I see at least two errors in that one statment.  I thought it
    was MONTANA that did not have a King day.  And second, we do have a King day
    Ann, but not a PAID King day!  That is a very important detail dear Annie!

            Last, I hope this 91 ballot issue on the KING day will be the last
    no matter how it turns out.  Since it has Mr King's name attached, I will
    VOTE "NO".   Reason:  I just don't like the man and his Commie connections.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73713
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 15:24:49

    People who STOP at YEILD signs when there is no need to are as annoying as
    people who don't use their turn signals even when they can see that you
    wouldn't have to sit there waiting if you knew they were going to turn.

    Why do smokers throw lit cigarettes out the window?  All my cars have had
    ashtrays, and I don't even smoke!  Ann, what's the deal here?

    Message: 73714
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 18:18:41

    And how about people who refuse to turn right at a red light when there is
    NO traffic coming from the left for a good three or four blocks?

    Message: 73715
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 19:12:10

      Those Limeys were a funny bunch of guys.  They were more
    like foreigners than the Frenchmen.  A Frenchman you could
    understand but a Limey was always twitching his nose and you
    couldn't understand him at all.  When you were stationed
    right next to them for two months you began to understand
    just how foreign they were.  They did some funny things.
    There was a little Scotchman in the Limey regiment who threw
    down his gun and quit the war when he heard that the Huns
    on the other side of Nomansland were Bavarians.  The little
    Scotchman said that the Bavarians were commanded by Crown
    Prince Rupert and that the Crown Prince was the last Stuart
    heir to the throne of England and the rightful king and that
    he would be goddamed if he would fight his king just because
    some Hanoverian pretender told him to.
      Now in any ordinary army they would take you out and shoot
    you for a thing like that.  But that's the way the Limeys
    were funny.  This little guy caused a hell of a stink.  Two
    or threee of his officers argued with him very politely
    instead of shooting him and when they couldn't get him to
    see things their way they called the colonel.  So the
    colonel came and had a long talk with the Scotchman and
    everybody seemed puzzled and the Scotchman got tougher and
    tougher and dared them to shoot him because he said his
    court martial would bring out the truth that everything was

    Message: 73716
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 19:16:21

    a fraud and King George would have to resign and how would
    Lloyd George like that?  The colonel went away and the
    Scotchman stayed sitting down on the bottom of the trench
    and pretty soon there came an order from G.H.Q. transferring
    him back of the lines for six weeks or until the Bavarians
    went away so he wouldn't have to fire in the direction of
    troops commanded by his king.  That was how funny Limeys
    were and that was how both the Americans and the Limeys knew
    there were Bavarians across from them.
    ...

    Message: 73717
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Andy Rooney
    Date: 03/12/91  Time: 20:17:43

    His arm is very long.

    Message: 73718
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: News Today
    Subject: I'm Back!
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 00:15:40

      I return from 6 weeks in Dallas, gladly. I was amazed at many things
    there, and few of them were favorable.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 73720
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: In search of
    Subject: -K. (1/13)
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:30:48

       I hadn't intended to post anything on the subject of negative Kelvin
    temperatures, though the subject is intriguing.  For one thing, my exposure
    to thermodynamics is limited to a single, 122 page book, whose primary
    emphasis is the production of extreme temperatures, not thermodynamic
    theory, and in which the rather esoteric subject of negative Kelvin
    temperatures is limited to 11 pages.  But a recent discussion of the subject
    with another Apollo user has stimulated me to attempt its exposition,
    perhaps with greater clarity than was possible without the immediate use of
    references.  In considering how best to go about this, I determined two
    possible lines of attack:

    (1)  A proper treatment, requiring a review of fundamental concepts, as well
    as the explication of a variety of obscure but important qualifying
    restrictions.

    (2)  An oversimplified treatment, taking much knowledge for granted, and
    omitting a variety of conditional restrictions without which my explanations
    would become meaningless or inaccurate in the context of certain
    applications.

       I decided on the second option.  This will save me a great deal of time
    and typing, as well as the need to review and research various concepts
    which at present I do not fully grasp, or am entirely ignorant of.

    Message: 73721
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: (2/13)
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:31:36

       Now I shall contradict what I have just said, to a degree determined by
    by the casting of I-Ching sticks.  First, allow me to complain about the
    way scientists use words.  Scientists have this annoying tendency to use the
    same words to describe different things.  Not only do they do this when they
    change theories within a field, but they also do this within different
    fields which are contemporaneous.  In mechanics, "work" is the acceleration
    of a mass, by a force, through a distance, along the line through which the
    force is acting.  In thermodynamics, work is something else, and under this
    definition the acceleration of an object in free-fall by a gravitational
    field is not work.  At times, it all becomes too much for the little grey
    cells.
       Beyond this, one would think that the fundamental terms of a science
    would be the easiest part of the study of that science.  It has been my
    experience, though this may be idiosyncratic, that the more advanced parts
    of a science (up to a point) are much simpler, because they rest on the
    foundation provided by the fundamental concepts, while the fundamental
    concepts rest on nothing and so are unintelligible.  These fundamental
    concepts are defined in a tautologous manner, so in order to relate them
    to any real phenomena, it is not sufficient to know the definition, but
    in fact, their real meaning can only be discerned by thoroughly examining
    their applications.  Unfortunately, if you look long enough, you will
    discover, even within a single, contemporary branch of science, applications
    which betray the working definition of the fundamental concept by rendering
    it inconsistent through mutual contradictions.  And so it goes.

    Message: 73722
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 3/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:32:19

       The term "energy" refers to the capacity to do work.  "Heat" is the
    *transfer* of energy between two systems which is solely due to a difference
    in temperature between the systems.  "Temperature" measures a property
    of matter which determines whether or not a system will be in thermal
    equilibrium with another system with which it is in, or could be put into,
    contact with.  However, this contact need not be physical, nor need their be
    material carriers, since heat can be transferred by radiation without the
    mediation of material particles.  "Thermal equilibrium" occurs when there
    is no net flow of heat between the systems in contact.  According to my
    reference, "neither the mass, nor the density, the 'elastic modulus', the
    electric charge, nor the magnetic state -- in fact none of the qualities of
    importance to mechanics, electricity, or magnetism -- determines thermal
    equilibrium."  Only the temperature.  An isolated system can be spoken of
    as being in thermal equilibrium; but really, this means that there is no
    net flow of heat between various defined components of the system.
       Now, even though energy is the capacity to do work, and heat is a form
    of energy, heat, which is to say, the transfer of thermal energy, is not
    work.  Heat can be converted to work -- for example, a steam engine.  This
    is further complicated by the way some writers refer to the heat "in a
    body."  I gather this is a misuse of the term.  And yet, temperature is
    sometimes described as a measure of the thermal energy of "random" motions
    of particles in a system in thermal equilibrium.

    Message: 73723
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 4/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:33:21

       But only a *change* in the "thermodynamic energy" or internal energy of a
    system can be measured.  And this change involves the *flow* of heat and
    the accomplishment of work.  Now how much would you pay?  But wait --
    there's more!
       It's time to introduce a very nasty word.  I know the SysOp has strict
    standards set for the PUBlic board, so I beg his indulgence.  The word is
    [gasp] "entropy."  This word is used in about a dozen different ways.  One
    interesting fact about entropy is that changes in it can only be calculated
    for "reversible" processes -- which are processes where the system and its
    surroundings are nicely behaved: there are no complications like
    acceleration, waves, eddies, turbulence, friction, etc.  Every property like
    pressure, temperature, magnetization, etc., is *uniform* throughout the
    system, so that a single value of a property can describe the entire system,
    and the system is close to equilibrium the entire time, and the process
    takes place in infinitesimal steps.  However, all real processes are
    *irreversable*, so that entropy changes for actual processes must be
    calculated by postulating "equivalent" theoretical reversible changes.
    Are we having fun yet?  Entropy, by the way, was originally introduced to
    facilitate the calculations of thermodynamics.
       Entropy is often described as a measure of the amount of energy which,
    through heat, can be converted to work.  If a hot and cold reservoir are
    brought into contact (and isolated from everything else), the difference in
    temperature will cause heat, that is, a transfer of energy due to
    temperature difference.

    Message: 73725
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 6/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:35:20

       However, this is a figment of the imagination, since real gases are
    inelastic in their collision processes.
       Another problem is that this concept of temperature is only
    meaningful for systems which are in equilibrium.  Actually, it would be
    more accurate to say that *the* concept of temperature only has meaning
    when applied to systems which are at or (more realistically) close to
    thermal equilibrium.  When equilibrium is absent, the quantities which are
    call temperature are merely parameters calculated from specific properties
    and areas of the system.
       Entropy is also often described as a measure of the "disorder" of a
    system.  As entropy increases, so does disorder.  I have never been able
    to make heads or tails of this.  It is easy to select examples which have
    an intuitive appeal to this interpretation of the concept of entropy.
    But it is equally easy to select examples where the application of the
    terms "order" and "disorder" seem utterly capricious.  For example,
    when the volume *only* of a gas is increased, entropy and hence "disorder"
    increases.  Why voluminous gases should be considered any more disorderly
    than more compact gases, I don't know.  Similarly, when temperature *only*
    is increased, entropy and hence "disorder" increases.
       Thoroughly confused?  Excellent!  Now that we are on an equal footing,
    I can proceed to the elucidation of the concept of negative Kelvin
    temperature.  I will now proceed as I had originally intended and announced.
    (Actually, I don't.)

    Message: 73726
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 7/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:36:05

       From now on, the concepts of temperature and entropy will interpreted
    in terms of statistical mechanics, a branch of thermodynamics which applies
    probability theory to interpret thermal properties of matter.
       As an illustration, consider a system which consists of an enormous
    number N (around 10**20) of identical particles.  Ideally, each molecule
    is almost independent of the others, colliding only occasionally, and
    interacting weakly through electric or magnetic fields.  Each molecule is
    capable of existing only in special discrete states whose energies are u0,
    u1, u2 . . .   A microscopic description of the overall state of the system
    of N molecules specifies that there are:
            n0 molecules in the state 0 with energy u0,
            n1 molecules in the state 1 with energy u1,
            n2 molecules in the state 2 with energy u2,
    and so on for all of the molecules.  The number of molecules (n's) in each
    state are called the populations of the states.  The populations depend on
    how close to equilibrium the system is, and as the system approaches
    equilibrium, the populations change until they reach their equilibrium
    values.
       In our system, which has a constant number of particles and a constant
    *total* energy, there are a variety of ways in which the populations could
    exist.  To simplify matters for the point of example, imagine for the moment
    a system of just three particles A, B, and C.  And imagine just four energy
    levels 0,1,2, and 3.

    Message: 73727
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 8/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:36:46

       Suppose the energy total of these three particles must remain constant at
    a value of 3.  This might be satisfied by having all three particles at
    energy state 1, that is, 1+1+1=3.  Or, two particles might have energy level
    zero, while the third could occupy level 3, so that 0+0+3=3.  Or, one
    particle could have energy level 0, the second could have level 1, and the
    third could have level 3, so that 0+1+2=3.
       Now, in the first instance, since there are three particles all occupying
    the same level, there is only one way for that state to occur.  In the
    second instance, with two at level 0 and one at level 3, there are three
    ways to do this, depending on which particle occupies level 3.  In the third
    instance, there are six ways for the state to occur.  These exhaust the
    possible states of a total constant energy level of 3.
       In our system, as originally defined, each of the 10**20 particles is
    capable of existing in an infinite number of discrete energy states.  Since
    this is the way most systems are, we can call our system "normal."  If this
    system is left to itself and subject only to the restrictions of constant
    number of particles and constant total energy, it will end up in the state
    of highest probability.  This is the equilibrium state.  Remember, in the
    equilibrium state, "entropy" is at a maximum.  So there is a connection
    between the two.

    Message: 73728
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 9/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:37:46

       Some guy named Boltzmann figured out this connection.  It is:
          S = k * ln P
    where S is entropy, k is Boltzmann's constant, and P is the thermodynamic
    probability of the state.  "ln" is "natural logorithm of" in case that
    wasn't obvious from my notation.  If you're really interested, ln P is:
          N! / (n0! * n1! * n2!...)
    where N is the number of particles in the system, and the n's refer to the
    populations.  The exclamation point is the "factorial" symbol and means
    multiply that integer by all lower integers down to and including "1".
       So, old Boltzmann knew that  S = k * ln P = a maximum.  Well, skipping
    the details, he finally came up with "Boltzmann's equation" :
          ni / n0 = e ** - [(ui - u0) / k * T]
    I apologise for the notation, but it's tough on a BBS.  n(sub)i is the
    population of state i, u(sub)i is the energy of state i,  e is the base of
    natural logarithms, k is Boltzmann's constant, and T is the temperature in
    Kelvins (Kelvin degrees).
       What all this means is that Boltzmann's equation tells the ratio of the
    population of *any* energy state to that of the first or lowest state.
    Since ui - u0 is positive and kT is positive (for positive Kelvin
    temperatures), ni is always less than n0, that is, population of an
    upper state is always less than that of any lower state (since any lower
    state can be used as a base of minimum energy).  The higher the energy of
    ui, the smaller the population for all *positive* values of T.

    Message: 73729
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 10/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:38:47

       As the temperature increases without bound, the distribution becomes more
    and more equal, so that at "infinite temperature" all the levels would be
    equally populated, but since there are an infinite number of levels, this
    would require an infinite amount of energy.  Incidentally, these energy
    levels are not purely kinetic, but the kinetic energy can be derived by
    integrating and subtracting various terms which refer to potential energy.
       For some systems, however, the number of energy levels are finite.  For
    example, the nuclear magnets of the lithium ions in a lithium floride
    crystal can have four energy levels in a magnetic field.
       Actually, in order to achieve negative temperatures, in addition to the
    requirement of finite energy levels, the particles in the system must
    come to equilibrium with each other very rapidly, but only come to
    equilibrium with the surrounding environment slowly enough so that an
    experiment can be accomplished.   And oh, did I forget to explain the
    concept of magnetic temperature?  Too bad.  It's too much work now.
      Where was I?  Most systems have an infinite number of energy levels, and
    as the temperature is raised, more and more molecules are raised to higher
    energy levels.  This requires more and more energy, and results in greater
    and greater "disorder" as the particles are distributed over more and more
    levels.  According to this interpretation then, a guy who keeps each pair
    of socks in its own drawer is more disordered than a guy who puts them all
    into the same drawer.  Go figure.

    Message: 73730
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 11/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:39:26

       I am really getting tired of this.  Let me skip to the end conclusion.
    For positive temperatures, there are more particles in the lower levels than
    in the upper levels, although this ratio evens out as the temperature
    increases.  In a system with infinite energy levels, it takes an infinite
    amount of energy to totally even out the distribution, so forget that. Going
    back to the Boltzmann equation, if a system has an infinite number of energy
    levels, an increase in temperature produces increased populations of higher
    and higher energy levels, but no energy level gets populated more than the
    one below it, so that the ratio  ni/n0 is always less than one and T is
    positive.  at T= infinity, ni would equal n0 but this is impossible because
    it requires infinite energy.  For T to be negative then, ni would have to be
    LARGER than n0, which is to say that the upper levels would have to be
    populated more than the lower levels.  This would require MORE than infinite
    energy which is even sillier.
       In a magnetic field, nuclear magnets aligned against the direction of the
    field have a higher energy than those aligned in the same direction.  Under
    ordinary circumstances, there are many fewer nuclear magnets in the higher
    levels than in the lower.  The subsystem of nuclear magnets is in
    equilibrium with itself and also with the crystal lattice in which it
    exists, and both the subsystem and its surroundings have the same positive
    temperature.

    Message: 73731
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 12/13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:40:21

      Now, if the magnetic field is reversed so quickly that the nuclear magnets
    are unable to follow the change of direction of the field, the large number
    of magnets which were formerly aligned in the lower energy state in the
    direction of the field, will now be aligned in the higher energy state
    against the field.  There are now more magnets in the higher state than in
    the lower.  You'll notice that I am only dealing with two states, not four.
    Too bad.  It is much easier for me to illustrate the point with two.
       Anyway, this is called a "population inversion."    The magnets come
    to equilibrium with each other very quickly, but take from 5 to 30 minutes
    to come to equilibrium with the rest of the lattice.
       At this point, the addition of energy will push more magnets into the
    upper level, but since the number of levels are finite, this has the result
    of concentrating (why did I agree to this?) more magnets in the same level,
    and so an increase in energy actually decreases the entropy.  Sigh.  In any
    case, more magnets are in the upper level than the lower, and so ni/n0 is
    negative.
       Don't ask me what this means in terms of the sensation of heat.
    Nothing is colder than absolute zero, but mathematically, negative
    temperatures are "hotter" than infinity.  Yeah, I know.

    Message: 73732
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 13/13 (Hallelujah!)
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 02:41:32

       Anyway, getting back to the practical applications of our inverted system
    of nuclear magnets, when a beam of microwaves with what I will refer to as
    a "sympathetic" wavelength is sent through lithium nuclei in a state of
    positive temperature, more elements are in a lower state, and the beam is
    reduced in intensity by absorption.  When the population inversion has
    occured and there are more nuclei in the higher, excited state than the
    lower, the beam is increased in intensity by causing transitions of the
    excited nuclei into lower levels.  This is a MASER (microwave amplification
    by stimulated emission of radiation.

       I refuse to type another word.

    Message: 73733
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie's puddles
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 05:25:28

     True, the whole Prescott area is beautiful. Too bad it's so close to
    Phoenix. It makes for far too many people at Lynx who have no clue of what
    camping is all about. Rude, inconsiderate, sloppy people, many of whom are
    too lazy to even take their trash to the nearest barrel and who leave their
    campsite in a shambles. I prefer taking a longer time getting to a place
    like White Horse lake near Williams or better yet, Luna lake near Alpine.
    Takes a while to get there, but it's well worth the trip.
     Goldwater lake is nice, though. The last time I was there, they didn't have
    any camping facilities, so it more or less kept the trash out.

    Message: 73734
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Traffic aggravations
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 05:32:44

    While we're at it, how about the Iowa Caddilac I was following a few years
    ago on McDowell, eastbound at 6 corners. When the light turned green for
    Mcdowell, he began his turn, and before he got all the way around to Grand
    Ave. SE bound, he saw the red light for Grand Ave. traffic. Believe it or
    not, he stopped! And stayed there through the whole cycle, horns blaring at
    him and everything, until the light turned green for Grand Ave. before he
    moved!
     Why these corn farmers don't stay on their tractors back in the cornfield
    is beyond me! NO! They have to trade them in on a Caddy and retire to
    Phoenix!

    Message: 73735
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last 13
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 05:36:34

    Has anyone actually READ all that?
    Does anyone really CARE?
    I'll probably get shouted down, but I respectfully propose a 2 message limit
    on any given topic by any single author at any one time.

    Message: 73736
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Todd Reese????
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 05:42:39

    Did I REALLY see a post by the one and only Todd Reese in the BIO SIG?
    Hey Toddy! What rock did you come out from under? Haven't heard from you in
    ages, and you still have $tatus? Like, WOW!

    Message: 73737
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on signals
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 07:01:19

    I guess one thing is at least established - they are a pain in the neck. But
    then, so are all stop lights er? Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73738
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on MLK
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 07:10:17

    I got the New Hampshire from the paper. That's all it said - nothing about
    Montana.
    What I don't understand is why we are having this vote when ... we already
    have a M.L.K. day - the people have already voted against it twice, right?
    What do we have to do, bash our politicians over the head to make then see?
    I have always been for MLK as you know - admired and respected him and feel
    he deserves a holiday - ALONG with many others that do - BUT - if the people
    of this state do not want it whether it be a paid holiday, or they just
    don't like the man or what ever, then their voices should be heard above the
    Superbowl roar! I also balk at a minority having so much power (these black
    groups) over the minority. Our country is based on majority rule and it
    should stay that way. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73739
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael on throwing
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 07:15:20

    Don't ask me - I never throw lit cigarettes out the car window. And besides,
    I don't smoke.

    There is a yield sign not too far from my house that you'd better stop or
    you just might get in an accident. It is a very dangerous intersection in a
    nice quiet track, but that is deceiving. Not only do you have to stop you've
    also got to creep out slowly or someone is just liable to clobber you. Many
    people including myself have written to the proper powers to get a stop sign
    put in there, but so far .........! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73740
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Alpo on stoppers
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 07:16:31

    These people that do not turn right when it's safe to do so, probably are
    from Calif. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73741
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on lakes
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 07:23:18

    I guess one man's meat is another man's poison er? We have been to that lake
    near Alpine and all the other very beautiful ones all over the White
    Mountains - we lived up there for 5 loooooooooooong yearss! But I hated all
    of it! Yeah - I'm warped I know, but so much beauty got to me. I got sick of
    it and wanted to hear traffic noises and sirens and see flowers and grass in
    bloom etc. etc. Guess I'm a city girl at heart. We had a great little lake
    across the highway from where we lived - Meadow lake or something like that.
    We only went a couple of times - it was boring. Give me lake Pleasant or
    Havasu where you can hear the roar of powerful engines and see water skiiers
    and jet skis! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73742
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Alpine
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 08:02:54

    Ah, Alpine.  One of my favorite places.  The family and I rent a cabin there
    for a week every year.  Don't like to hike much; not much of a fisherman.
    But, jeez, it's sure beautiful up there!  (And pretty cheap, too.  We
    usually get the cabin for the five of us for a little over $100 for five
    days.)

    This is scary, Paul.  We've agreed on two issues over the last couple days.

    Message:

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Jeff/Your 13 msgs.

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Although I will read your messages off-line, from what I could scan they
     2:looked very interesting.  Thanks for taking the time.
     3:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
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    Message: 73743
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff/Lay Off!
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 09:08:59

      Anyone who doesn't like thirteen-parters can simply hit the [Q] key
    thirteen times real fast (and we can all count that high, can't we?), or hit
    the [A], and type in another RCnnnn- command (where nnnn is the number of
    part one, plus thirteen.
      Some things simply can't be stated clearly in one or two 24-line posts.
      This is not to say that Jeff can post anything clearly, though.

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 73744
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Steve M on Cliff
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 10:15:04

    Re: Cliff/Lay off

    I did not say a thing, that was Paul Savage's message, who by the way has a
    right to his opinion.   In this case I would suggest he hit the [S]kip key
    as I do know that sometimes it takes more than one or two posts to get a
    theory or statement across clearly.  I do like it when the users such as
    Jeff Beck use the 1 of 13, 2 of 13, etc. count to warn users that they
    either need to open their capture buffer or hit the [S]kip key for said
    number of posts.

           For me to limit the number of posts for $tatus members would be
    WRONG on my part.  I feel that good judgement has been used by Jeff, Gordon,
    Apro and others.... so far.

           Besides, it has helped scroll all those nasty "War in the Gulf" posts
    off.... Thank God!

           So Mr. MacGregor, there is no reason to go to war with me.... unless,
    you really want to go deep into the MacPhantom Zone?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73745
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lakes
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 12:03:58

    I used to live 7 miles up the road from Lynx lake.

    Message: 73746
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 18:05:45

    ...
      Someone was kissing his temple.  There was a slight
    tickling of hair as the kiss was given.  He was being kissed
    by a man with a moustache.  First his left temple and then
    his right one.  Then he knew what they had done to him.
    They had come into his room and they had decorated him with
    a medal.  He new furthermore that he must be in France
    instead of England because French generals were the ones
    who always kissed you when they handed out medals.  Still
    that might not be true.  American generals and English
    generals shook your hand but since he had no hand to shake
    maybe this was an Englishman or an American who had decided
    to follow the French custom because there was no other way
    to do it.  But still the chances now seemed even that he was
    in France.
      When he snapped back from thinking of where he was and
    adjusting himself to the idea that it might be France he was
    a little surprised to find that he was getting mad.  They
    had given him a medal.  Three or four big guys famous guys
    who still had arms and legs and who could see and talk and
    smell and taste had come into his room and they had pinned a
    medal on him.  They could afford to couldn't they the dirty
    bastards?  That was all they ever had time to do just run
    around putting medals on guys and feeling important and smug

    Message: 73747
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 18:15:23

    about it.  How many generals got killed in the war?  There
    was Kitchener of course but that was an accident.  How many
    others?  Name them name any of the soft-living sonsofbitches
    and you could have them.  How many of them had got all shot
    up so they had to live wrapped in a sheet for the rest of
    their lives?  They had a lot of guts coming around and
    giving medals.
      When he had thought for an instant that his mother and his
    sisters and Kareen might be standing beside the bed he had
    wanted to hide.  But now that he had generals and big guys
    he felt a sudden fierce surging desire for them to see him.
    Just as before he had started to reach for the medal without
    an arm to reach with so now be began to blow the mask off
    his face without having mouth and lips to blow with.  He
    wanted them to get just one look at that hole in his head.
    He wanted them to get their fill of a face that began and
    ended with a forehead.  He lay there blowing and then he
    realized that the air from his lungs was all escaping
    through his tube.  He began to roll again from shoulder to
    shoulder hoping to dislodge the mask.
      While he lay there rolling and puffing he felt a vibration
    way down in his throat a vibration that might be a voice.
    It was a short deep vibration and he knew that it was making
    a sound to their ears.  Not a very big sound not a very

    Message: 73748
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 18:20:17

    intelligent sound but it must seem to them at least as
    interesting as the grunting of a pig.  And if he could grunt
    like a pig why then he was accomplishing a great thing
    because before he had been completely silent.  So he lay
    thrashing and puffing and grunting like a pig hoping that
    they would see damned well how much he appreciated their
    medal.  While he was in the middle of this there was an
    indefinite churning of footsteps and then the departing
    vibrations of his guests.  A moment later he was all alone
    in the blackness in the silence.  He was all alone with his
    medal.
    ...

    Message: 73749
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SysOp
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 19:52:54

    I respectfully request that Paul Savage be put into the Zone as punishment
    for his impertinence.

    Message: 73750
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B. Dog/Title 28
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 20:04:10

    You know, reading over those articles, I see nothing which specifically
    excludes divided highways, though their wording does allow inferences to be
    made.

    28-724  When Overtaking On The Right Is Permitted
      A.  The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of
    another vehicle only under the following conditions:
      1. When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.
      2. Upon a street or highway with unobtructed pavement not occupied by
    parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles
    in each direction.
      3. Upon a one-way street, or upon any roadway on which traffic is
    restricted to one direction of movement, where the roadway is free from
    obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving
    vehicles.
      B. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the
    right only under conditions permitting the movement in safety.  In no event
    shall the movement be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled
    portion of the roadway.

    Now, it appears you have inferred the exclusion of divided highways on the
    basis of the reference to parked cars.  But subsection A.2 does not restrict
    itself to highways where cars can be parked; it merely deals with that
    special case within a broader context.

    Message: 73751
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: highways
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 22:04:40

    Yes, it appears that A.3 allows for passing on the right on divided
    highways.  Note to any who have to take the written test in the future. "B"
    is a favorite trick -- you can't leave the pavement to pass stopped traffic
    on the right... so beware of those shoulders!

    Message: 73752
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: FREEWAYS
    Date: 03/13/91  Time: 22:30:10

         The back tire on the passenger side of my truck blew out while I was
    driving on the freeway this morning.
         This is my contribution to the ongoing "freeway" discussion.  Thank
    you.

    Message: 73753
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul Savage
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 04:06:18

    Those wondering what happened to me should read msg 17 on the BIO sig.  I
    updated it.

    (Now where did I put that hula skirt?)

    Message: 73754
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: ANNIE??????
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 05:48:39

    YOU DON'T SMOKE?????????
    When did you quit?
    If that's true, HALLELUJAH!!!!

    Message:

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Freeway discussion

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Cars are monsters.
     2:end

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    The message is 73960

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    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 73755
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/Alpine
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 05:51:43

    Yeah, I'm getting woried about all this agreement, too, but who could argue
    about the beauty of the White Mountain area, the Blue river, Alpine,
    Hannigan's Meadow and such? WHen God created the earth, I think he kissed
    that area just for good measure.

    Message: 73756
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 05:54:03

     I'm not sure how to spell a raspberry, but consider my tongue stuck out in
    your direction. BRRRRRRRRRRRRP!

    Message: 73757
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Republic (1/2)
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 07:40:59

       There is an article in today's Republic on page A-11, with the alarming
    headline "Guns outrank diseases as killer of teen-age boys."  In it, U.S.
    Secretary of Health and Human Services Louis Sullivan is quoted as saying
    that more teen-age boys die of gunshots than from all natural causes
    combined.  He cited a study by the Health and Human Services Department's
    National Center for Health Statistics.
       The Republic article is practically worthless, however.  How are "teen-
    age boys" defined?  One would think that such a group includes all U.S.
    males between the ages of 13 and 19.  But the study cited, at least as
    quoted in the Republic, only mentions boys from 15-19.  What about 13 and
    14 year-olds?
       And how does he calculate the number of deaths from gunshot wounds?  Is
    he talking about the number of homicide deaths, which according to the study
    cited amount to 1,408 males between the ages of 15-19 in 1988?  Or is he
    counting the total number of firearms deaths in that group, a figure that
    includes accidents and suicides?  This figure is substantially higher,
    totalling 2,752 males between 15 and 19 in 1988.
       And how many males between 15 and 19 died from "natural causes?"  The
    article doesn't say!
       Sullivan is also quoted as saying that in the "black community," 86
    percent of children spend part of their childhood living in a mother-only
    family.  Where does he get this figure?  How is it calculated?  Does it
    include single, temporarily divorced mothers?  Does it include families
    whose fathers travel alone for business purposes?  We aren't told.

    Message: 73758
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Republic (2/2)
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 08:00:13

    And when all is said and done, what does this mean, even if substantiated?
    Is it significant?  After all, how many 15-19 year-olds are afflicted with
    fatal diseases?  How many 15-19 year-old males have terminal cancer,
    heart-disease, and so forth?

    As usual, the "statisticulation" says nothing, but is presented in a manner
    calculated to manipulate us into filling in the blanks, which is to say,
    jumping to the implied but unsupported conclusions.  What are these
    conclusions?

    Guns are baaaad things and we should probably remove them from society, or
    at least pass lots more ineffectual and downright pernicious legislation.

    This reminds me of a debate held on Macneil/Lehrer the other evening.  The
    liberal sociologists, as usual, blamed crime on the availability of guns, on
    poverty, and on the lack of opportunity for minorities.  A judge, who grew
    up in the Bronx responded that when he was young, he and other walked the
    streets of Spanish Harlem at night without fear, and often slept with
    windows open, etc.  He commented that poverty was greater at that time, and
    that opportunities, educational as well as employment, were considerably
    more restricted for minorities.

    One of the anti-gun lobbyists ranted about "semi-automatic machineguns,"
    an oxymoron which gave evidence of both his ignorance and hysteria.

    Message: 73759
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Alpine
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 08:42:24

    > WHen God created the earth, I think he kissed that area
    > [Alpine] just for good measure.

    And here I thought it was just a happy accident!

    Luna Lake is a hole, though.  My dad and I got caught on it in a row boat in
    a sudden, very strong thunderstorm.  It was quite exhilarating.

    Message: 73760
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: lake debate
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 09:56:30

    I rode those "death skis" a couple times in that lake in the middle of
    Denver with about as much success as I had at regular water skiing.
    Maybe I would enjoy fishing.  That was pretty fun when I was a kid, though I
    rarely caught anything.

    Message: 73761
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul/race...?
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 17:41:35

    If you drive a non-sport 4 or 6 cyllinder vehicle, I WILL beat you to 40 mph
    plus...it may only do 13 sec 0-60's, but up to 40, it will run hood to hood
    with 10 sec 0-60 cars...
    2300 pound car with 3.50 gears with 90 hp and 120 ft/lbs of torque may not
    be drag race material, but it will (as my old friends used to say) put the
    average little new car "on hold"...considering that it weighs [less] than
    some of the Japanese cars with somewhat more hp and torque means that it
    beats them at their own game, at least for a while...
    [smile...!]

    Message: 73762
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: freeway merging
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 17:47:32

    When you drive a car which is relatively slow at freeway speeds, you learn
    to Merge from a Position of Power...ie, make sure you're going at least 5 to
    10 mph faster than the regular traffic by the time you're ready to merge.
    While my poor little Ford gets put into the role of Road Warrior at street
    speeds, when it comes to freeways, I can brake far faster than I can
    accelerate.
    As for rush hour, I instinctively gravitate towards minor streets. Plenty of
    experience of delivery driving and rental car shuffling taught me that
    anyone who would get onto a freeway during rush hour who has any possible
    alternatives is a fool. Easy enough solution to the traffic light problem
    for me, since I would never consider using the freeways during rush hour as
    there is nowhere that I go that I couldn't get there faster on an overland
    route during that time.

    Message: 73763
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: traffic stupids
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 17:49:53

    Almost as annoying as the people who stop at yield signs are the ones who
    sit at intersections waiting for an arrow to make a left turn when there are
    absolutely no arrows at that intersection. Or the ones who think that once
    the arrow disappears (other than at intersections where you are specifically
    told 'left turn on arrow only') they have to wait for the next light cycle.
    Argh!

    Message: 73764
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 18:31:19

    ...
      When he was a kid way back maybe four years ago or five he
    had a wireless set.  He and Bill Harper used to telegraph
    each other.  Dot dash dot dash dot.  Particularly on rainy
    nights when their folks wouldn't let them go out and there
    was nothing to do and they just lounged around the house and
    got in everybody's way.  On such nights he and Bill Harper
    used to dot and dash at each other and they had a hell of a
    good time.  He still remembered the Morse code.  All he had
    to do in order to break through to people in the outside
    world was to lie in bed and dot dash to the nurse.  Then he
    could talk.  Then he would have smashed through his silence
    and blackness and helplessness.  Then the stump of a man
    without lips would talk.  He had captured time and he had
    tried to figure geography and now he would do the greatest
    thing of them all he would talk.  He would give messages and
    receive messages and he would have made another step forward
    in his struggle to get back to people in this terrible
    lonely eagerness for the feel of people near him for the
    things that were in their minds for the thoughts they might
    give him his own thoughts were so puny so unfinished so
    incomplete.  He would talk.
      Tentatively he raised his head from the pillow and let it
    fall back again.  Then he did it twice quickly.  That would

    Message: 73765
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 18:41:40

    be a dash and two dots.  The letter d.  He tapped out SOS
    against his pillow.  Dot-dot-dot dot dot dot-dot-dot.  SOS.
    Help.  If there was anybody in the whole world needed help
    he was the guy and now he was asking for it.  He wished the
    nurse would hurry back.  He began to tap out questions.
    What time is it?  What's the date?  Where am I?  Is the sun
    shining or is it cloudy?  Does anybody know who I am?  Do my
    folks know I'm lying here?  Don't tell them.  Don't let them
    know anything about it.  SOS.  Help.
      The door of the room jarred open and the nurse's footsteps
    came up to the bed.  He began to tap out more frantically
    now.  Here he was right on the brink of finding people of
    finding the world of finding a big part of life itself.  Tap
    tap tap.  He was waiting for her to tap tap tap in
    response.  A tap against his forehead or his chest.  Even if
    she didn't know the code she could tap just to let him know
    she understood what he was doing.  Then she could rush away
    for someone who could help her get what he was saying.  SOS.
    SOS.  SOS.  Help.
      He felt the nurse standing there looking down at him
    trying to figure out what he was doing.  The mere
    possibility that she didn't understand after all he had gone
    through before discovering it himself shocked him into such
    excitement and fear that he began to grunt again.  He lay

    Message: 73766
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/14/91  Time: 18:44:29

    grunting and tapping grunting and tapping until the muscles
    in the back of his neck ached until his head ached until he
    felt that his chest would burst from his eagerness to shout
    out to explain to her what he was trying to do.  And still
    he felt her standing motionless beside his bed looking down
    and wondering.
    ...

    Message: 73767
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/storms
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 05:20:28

     I got caught in a violent storm one day in Salome cove on Roosevelt lake,
    and had to negotiate clear across the lake in a 12' boat with a 3 horse
    motor. If you think that a trip across Luna is "exhilarating", you ought to
    try THAT on for size!
     Any lake is a good place not to be in a thunderstorm, however. Since I once
    saw lightning strike a small boat in the middle of a lake, I get off the
    water at the first thundercloud sighting.

    Message: 73768
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/race?
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 05:23:52

     Just you wait until I feed my old horse a little hat, and I'll take you on!
    Actually, I run around in a 1 ton Dodge Maxivan, and don't even think in
    terms of racing. Just go with the flow, gal, just go with the flow.....

    Message: 73769
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Traffic
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 09:23:09

      I tend to take back streets almost exclusively, and avoid
    heavily-traveled roads like Scottsdale and Thomas.
      My 18-speed Murray may be short on horsepower, but you can't
    beat it for economy!

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 73770
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Lake Storms
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 09:25:18

    We were headed to the shore before any storm clouds seemed close at all, but
    they caught us.  Oh well.  At least it gave Mom a good scare.  8^O

    Message: 73771
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul/race
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 10:56:01

    You know me...jes' kidding.

    Message: 73772
    Author: Ken Aback
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: ilfe
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 17:29:31

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    Are you worried about being caught on video tape clubbing some
    one down. You now can enroll in advanced individual harassment
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    using chemistry and psychology to accomplish the same goals.
    Learn how to hold court with out the victim there to justify your
    actions.  Learn how to push your victim to the point of depression,
    suicide , murder or physical and mental deterioration. Learn how
    to an induced asthma attacks or mental hallucinations thru the use
    of small spray bottles of chemicals. Learn what methods are condoned
    by the media.  Never again will you be on the receiving end of
    that video tape.  Classes open now contact.
                           Controlled Individual Aggression
                           P.O. box  00000
                           9999 Nowhere
                           Phoenix, Az 12345

    Message: 73773
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: hostages
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 17:55:33

    Tonight I caught the tail end of a story on the hostages being held by
    Shiite extremists.  There was a little ceremony taking place, in a church, I
    think, where 70 small children were brought out one at a time.  Each one
    held a card with the name of a month held on it; a card for each month Terry
    Anderson has been held captive.  This was accompanied by folk musicians
    playing accoustic guitar and singing a repetitive song with the lyrics "Free
    Terry Anderson."  Supposedly, this was directed at the captors.

    How touching.  I'm sure it warmed the hearts of most American TV viewers.
    Can't you just imagine the response of the kidnappers:

    "Look at that.  Gosh!  We really *ought* to let him go."

    Message: 73774
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: the system sucks
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 18:08:37

    On Wednesday, Justice Thomas B. Galligan sentenced Steven Lopez to one and a
    half to four and a half years in prison in a plea agreement.  You may
    remember the Central Park jogger case, in which a 30 year old female jogger
    and investment banker was raped, sodomized, beaten, and left for dead.
    Lopez, who is the "alleged" ringleader, was a minor at the time.  He had
    been charged with attempted murder, sodomy, and rape, in that case, as well
    as charges in attacks on two male joggers.  But in a plea agreement, he got
    these charges dropped in exchange for pleading guilty to a single count of
    robbery.

    The judge called Lopez "one of the most vicious attackers in the mob."  Boy,
    you can bet that stern reprimand will make him think twice.  I wonder what
    the sentences of the "less vicious" participants amounted to.

    Personally, I think every one of those convicted should be put to death.  I
    also think that the Judge, as well as anyone else who cooperated in
    arranging this plea bargain, should be stood in front of a wall and shot, or
    better yet, hung from a lamppost with a sign reading "I am a traitor to all
    humanity."  I'd be glad to do the dirty work.

    Message: 73775
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Who's Douglas Buedel
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 18:16:18

    Well, speak up, man.  (He *is* a $tatus user.)

    Message: 73776
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 19:08:46

      ... He had lost track of everything except the tapping. ...
    He was never quite positive that he was not dreaming when
    awake and tapping when asleep.  He had lost time so utterly
    that he had no idea how long the tapping had been going on.
    Maybe only weeks maybe a month perhaps even a year. ...  He
    didn't think of the past and he didn't consider the future.
    He only lay and tapped his message over and over again to
    people on the outside who didn't understand. ...

    Message: 73777
    Author: Ed Sheridan
    Category: Joke
    Subject: oke
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 20:57:39

    There were two gay Irishmen named patrick Fitshenry and Henry Fitspatrick.*

    Message: 73778
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last?
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 21:22:43

    Oke? *

    Message: 73779
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann / traffic
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 21:24:30

    And I have seen SO many people parked in the left-turn lane, looking at the
    green left-pointing arrow, while the driver behind is leaning on his horn.
    What are these people WAITING for?

    Message: 73780
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck/Douglas Buedel
    Date: 03/15/91  Time: 21:56:15

            Is one of the ORIGINAL 'Super Blue $tatus' users.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73781
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Sorry, (Sniff)
    Subject: Sandi/race
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 05:21:11

    Aw shucks! And I had old Nellie all curried out and even put a little ground
    dynamite in her oats. Oh well.

    Message: 73782
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/hostage story
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 05:24:36

     I missed that item, but your post caused me to wonder. Isn't it the Shiite
    extremists who are trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein?
    Sort of makes one wonder which is the lesser of two evils, doesn't it?

    Message: 73783
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on "justice"
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 05:29:08

     Yet another thing on which we agree fully! (Almost scary, huh?)
     I read that article and bristled! I could almost feel the hair stand up on
    the back of my neck, as I pondered on the total injustice of the so-called
    justice system. Since the culprits in this case were all black, I wonder how
    much the NAACP and/or the Americal Civil Liberties Union had to do with this
    miscarriage. Another victory for the lawyers, without whom we would
    probably all be better off.

    Message: 73784
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on lakes
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 09:29:43

    Where abouts? Was it along the creek - down in the draw? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73785
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on smoking
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 09:33:10

    Don't get your 'militant non-smoker' hopes up dearie - I may start back at
    anytime. Did not plan to quit forever! (smile) I LOVE to smoke!
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73786
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on article
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 09:40:38

    In stories like this, it makes you wonder if the judge had all his marbles.
    Or the lawyer that plea bargined. Perhaps there should be testing for
    sanity before these people get to become judges and lawyers.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73787
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alpo #73779
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 09:42:11

    Re: "what are they waiting for"? - ----- Christmas! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73788
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley/last
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 09:44:08

    Oh good gawd!!! What's all this agreeing?? Gads man! Too much agreeing will
    give you indigestion and constipation. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73789
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 12:31:00

       *Somewhere it is being prepared.  Somewhere deep in the
    heart of Germany the shell is being made.  Some German girl
    is polishing it right now polishing it and cleaning it and
    fitting the charge into it.  It glistens in the factory
    light and it has a number and the number is mine.  I have a
    date with that shell.  We shall meet soon.
    ...
      Nearer nearer.  Some top-heavy canvas-covered German truck
    is plunging toward France right now.  In it are shells and
    among the shells the one with my number.  It's coming toward
    the west through the Rhine valley I always wanted to see it
    through the Black Forest I always wanted to see it through
    the deep deep night coming toward France the shell I shall
    meet.  It's coming nearer and nearer nothing can stop it not
    even the hand of god for I have a time set and it has a time
    set and we shall meet when the time comes.
    ...
      Hidden beneath some gentle rolling hill that is like a
    woman's breast on the solid flesh of the land hidden under
    the hill in some unknown ammunition dump is my shell.  It is
    ready.  Hurry boy hurry doughboy don't be late finish
    whatever you have to do you haven't much time left.
    ...
      It will come with a rush and a roar and a shudder.  It

    Message: 73790
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 12:34:05

    will come howling and laughing and shrieking and moaning.
    It will come so fast you can't help yourself you will
    stretch out your arms to embrace it.  You will feel it
    before it comes and you will tense yourself for acceptance
    and the earth which is your eternal bed will tremble at the
    moment of your union.*
    ...

    Message: 73791
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Guns, etc.
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 17:07:14

      I glanced at the Republic article on the statistics regarding causes of
    death among teen-age boys when it came out. I generally agree with $Jeff
    Beck's reservations (73757,73758) about the nature of such data and its
    true implications. I did see one thing in the article, however, which
    seemed to indicate a willingness to confront unpleasant truths. It was
    frankly stated that the greatest cause of death among young black men was
    other young black men. Ignorance and hysteria are behind the dubious
    propositions that guns can be removed from the hands of Americans wholesale
    and that to do so would bring safety and harmony to the streets. One who
    really cares to improve the situation should be concerned over why people
    are being killed, rather than just how.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 73792
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thought for the day
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 18:36:18

    "A tautology is a tautology" is a tautology.

    Message: 73793
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 21:04:05

      But then, *all* tautologies are tautologies!

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 73794
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul/Shiites
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 23:22:13

    Yes, the Shiites are one faction.  The Kurds are another prominent faction.
    I have no information about Kurdish political philosophy, but it is almost
    certainly more moderate that that of the particular Shiite faction active in
    Iraq, since they are an offshoot of an Iranian Shiite fundamentalist
    element.  Of course, not all Shiites are fundamentalist, anti-American
    fanatics, but unfortunately they seem to get all the press.  I guess the
    sight of people quietly worshipping God in their own way just doesn't
    attract sponsors.

    Personally, I think we ought to clean house down in the middle east.  But I
    don't think anyone who isn't specifically interested in that should be
    forced to fight.  Actually, since I feel there are more direct methods of
    dealing with foreign governments who see fit to terrorize us, there would be
    little need for an attacking army.  But since we live in a Bizarro world
    where pseudo-people have pseudo-morals, rather than in a real world where
    people won't tolerate injustice and are willing to take steps to crush it
    wherever it appears, I have little hope of seeing that come to pass.
    Getting metaphysical for a moment, one sometimes gets a feeling for what
    animals in a zoo must feel like.  Not the kind with cages, but the kind with
    a "realistic environment" for specific animals.  The humans who oversee the
    zoo, who have no real concept of how an animal perceives his environment,
    imagine that their awkward synthetic contructs make them animal feel at
    home, but to the animal, it seems like a very poor imitation indeed.  As the
    bard said, life is a tale told by an idiot.

    Message: 73795
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alpo/73792
    Date: 03/16/91  Time: 23:24:02

    Hahahahahaha!  Cute.

    Message: 73796
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Politics
    Subject: crime and causality
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 03:43:24

    "One who really cares to improve the situation should be concerned over why
    people are being killed, rather than just how."

    The problem starts when people stop holding individuals accountable for
    their own actions and start blaming anything except the individual.  Some
    people think poverty causes crime.  Therefore, they propose a redistribution
    of wealth.  They might not call it that, but when the government takes a
    portion of your earnings against your will and gives it to somebody else
    (usually an inefficient bureaucracy which spends a sizable fraction on
    overhead) that's what it amounts to.

    Some people think drugs and alcohol cause crime.  Therefore, they propose
    to make those substances illegal.  In order to enforce these bans, you,
    Dean Hathaway, and others like you, are the ones to pay, again, in the form
    of taxation.  This too is a redistribution of wealth, though it seldom is
    thought of as such.

    The list goes on and on, and only stops when people are held culpable for
    their own misbehavior.  Nor is the end result of this philosophy of mea non
    culpa strictly economical.  The primary and most pernicious result is not
    your lost earnings, but the amplifying and perpetuating effect it has on
    crime.  Hold people responsible for their actions, and more of them act
    responsibly.  Make it clear that they can blame a variety of factors, with
    the approval of society, and more act irresponsibly.

    Message: 73797
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: War!
    Subject: Annie/smoking
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 05:46:20

    Then why did you quit in the first place? Some wise doctor scare the
    daylights out of  you? Too bad it didn't stick, whatever it was.
     Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette.
     Puff, puff, puff, and when you smoke yourself to death,
    Tell Saint Peter at the golden gate
    That you hate to make him wait,
    But you've just got to have another cigarette!
    How totally DUMB!

    Message: 73798
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 07:11:21

    Continuing our discussion from last monday evening...(others should feel
    free to jump in, as that is the only reason I move the discussion from the
    post office to the public board)...

    ...That is to say, there is a difference between interpreting formulae in
    the sense of assigning symbols to concrete observables, and interpreting
    formulae in the sense of *explaining* them.  This is the difference, tenuous
    as it sometimes is, between ontology and description.  As far as I am
    concerned, the ontological interpretation of the formulae is metaphysical,
    not scientific.  As for assigning symbols to non-observables, I do not at
    present feel that science has been advanced by this practice, despite the
    reoccurence of serendipitous episodes where science *has* been advanced by
    this practice.  That is to say, our power to quantitatively describe what we
    observe, which, in the case of general laws, also allows prediction, is not
    affected one whit by the various ontologies assigned to the quantitative
    formulae.  I also feel that if as pure an empirical approach as is possible
    had been adopted from the beginning of all scientific endeavor, we would not
    only be farther along in our ability to describe and hence predict what we
    observe, but would not be plagued by the inconsistencies and paradoxes which
    are the result of attempting to interpret nature in terms of our ontologies.

    Message: 73799
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: same subject
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 07:51:55

    Look at any scientific theory.  The only thing of value in it are the
    formulae which allow us to quantitatively describe and hence predict (by
    extrapolation) what we *actually observe*.  Newton's laws of mechanics don't
    describe forces any more than Einstein's laws of mechanics describe warped
    space-time.  Forces, warped space-time, gravity, it's all just another way
    of saying that two observable objects interact in such and such a manner. It
    galls me to no end to hear a simple exchange of momentum described as force
    acting across a distance or a curve in the space-time manifold.  We don't
    have any evidence for either.  All we know in physics is what we have seen,
    and all we see in so-called gravity interactions is a certain exchange of
    momentum between objects.  We don't see forces, and we don't see curved
    space-time.  The only refinements in physical theories are those which allow
    us to quantitatively describe what we observe with greater accuracy than
    previously possible.  The only things which survive from theory to theory,
    though they do change by refinement, are the quantitatively descriptive
    formulae.  The ontologies are entirely superfluous, and indeed, it is
    irritating to see scientists hopping from one to the other and back again.
    First it's particles, then it's waves, then it's particles again, then it's
    waves again.  First force acts at a distance, then it isn't force but
    geometry.  First it's a vacuum, then it's a luminiferous ether, then it's a
    vacuum again, then its an electromagnetic ether, then it's a vacuum again,
    now it's a quantum field, teeming with particles: mark my words, mark my
    words, the ether will be resurrected before a hundred years have passed, oh
    yes, it will.

    Message: 73800
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last on this subject
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 08:14:51

    And for what?  All because one or another ontology is ostensibly more
    sensible, or more aesthetically pleasing -- to scientists of that
    generation.

    Message: 73801
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on smoking
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 09:06:20

    I'm dumb?? Tell me this - what seemingly sane, intelligent person is so
    anti-smoking, he has put up a ungodly ugly, tasteless, commercial looking
    'no smoking' sigh on his front door in a otherwise charming, cozy house??
    Do people usually come up to your door (sales people or friends) with a
    cigarette dangling from their mouths or a big fat foul stogie? A pipe or
    Cheroot? If so, would it not be easier to just say "no smoking please"
    without the billboard? Arn't your friends 'your friends' whether they smoke
    or not?? If they are your friends, they wouldn't smoke in your house would
    they? Is a friend that doesn't smoke more valuable to you than one that
    does? How about rudeness? What if I posted a sign on my front door .."No
    Clowns allowed"! Would you think me your friend? Would you feel welcome
    without your clown costume? If you want to know the truth - I don't
    particularly like clowns - never have even as a child. I personally think
    they are a mental health problem to small children! Now what did I do with
    that sign ....?
                     -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73802
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Clowns Vs Smoking
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 10:37:04

            Let's see...Clowns make 'Laughter' as a by product....  This is
    healthy!  This makes 'clowns' good for society.

            Smoking....  Hmmm, kills 50,000 none smokers a year with second hand
    smoke....not to mention the number of smokers it kills.  EVERY smoker that
    smokes contributes to this fact!  I would see 'Smokers' as being bad for
    society...no matter how polite some of them are.

            Paul, come over and hang one of them 'No Smoking' signs on my
    house...  QUICK!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- (-:}   grin

    Message: 73803
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/last
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:22:34

    Do you REALLY believe all those statistis? Smoker or not, I don't!
    BTW - I smoke and smile a lot - a whole lot!
    You see "smokers as being bad for society" .... how about gun owners? They
    have killed a few people over the years huh? Being a tad over zealous ain't
    youse? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73804
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff 1 of 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:23:23

    In answer to you posts # 7179 through #7181 to Dean ....

    JB> "The freedom of a government to act without accountability to those it
    governs is a tyranny in the eyes of the people"!

    Me> I don't profess to be an expert on the Libertarian doctrine, but what
    I have read and heard, I never got the opinion that they believed in 'a
    government that did not have to account to it's people'! They believe in
    'less' government control, not more. I feel that our government is not
    accounting to us and are becoming a tyranny of sorts in not doing so. I
    also think that the IRS IS a TYRANT without a shadow of a doubt!!!

    JB> "Should I be free to shoot fireworks off in a residential neighborhood
    but only be accountable if I burn someone's house down"?

    Me> Yes! Why not? If you do such a thing you should be prepared to be
    accountable from burning houses down to maiming someone with a powerful
    firecracker that you have provided him. Personally, I'd like to see
    fireworks come back to the residential neighborhoods. For 30 years of my
    life from a little kid on up I had them and so did my neighbors and I
    NEVER heard of anyone getting hurt - even with the dangerous fireworks and
    NEVER, NEVER heard of anyone's house burning down! You know what simple
    thing we did? Everyone got their hoses out and had them handy just in
    case! Parents were involved and watched their kids. (cont.)

    Message: 73805
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jef 2 of 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:24:12

    (Cont.) We didn't have the worry about dangerous illegal fireworks because
    we could buy safe tested one's at any street corner. (safe within reason
    of course - anything of this sort can become misused and dangerous) We
    also could go to the Coliseums and ball parks and pay if we wished. But we
    had choices anyway. I never did understand why they took that freedom of
    fireworks away from us?!!

    When you talk about driving down a street speeding and only being
    accountable if you run someone over is ludicrous. We must have some ground
    rules and the government should have a hand in many things - safety,
    education in general, but to fully butt their nose in all our business is
    not what government is supposed to be all about. Of course we need speed
    laws, but we do not need seat belt laws! This in my opinion, is government
    over stepping it's boundaries. See my point?

    Speaking of 'shooting your high powered rifle off in your backyard'
    etc.... that brings up a question ... if you can't shoot it off in your
    backyard, where can you shoot it? The desert? Naw, the environmentalists
    will get you! Can you even protect yourself against a criminal with it?
    Naw!  If you hurt or kill him, he or his family can and will probably sue
    you for everything you've got. So what good is a Constitutional gun right
    when the government not only doesn't give us many rights concerning guns,
    but they are constantly trying to take that right away from us. (Cont.)

    Message: 73806
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff 3 0f 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:24:58

    (Cont.)
    JB> "Should a company be free to wire a house or building in any manner
    they please, and only be accountable if their substandard workmanship or
    materials results in a fire"?

    Me> The government in this case should make the safety rules - not only to
    protect people from scoundrels - but to also give guidelines to the
    builders. BUT, it has gone too far right now with gov. butting in where
    they are not needed or wanted! This I am an expert in because my husband
    deals with these people ALL the time and it's crazy to say the least!!
    Instead of a nice neat little book of rules and regulations for safety and
    guidelines, there's reams! The laws are changing almost daily and the
    people that are trying to enforce them, don't even, can't even keep up
    with the latest ones and the bottom line is C.Y.A.! Better know as
    'covering your A$$'! So nothing gets done within a reasonable amount of
    time because so many of them are afraid of making a mistake and losing
    their seniority. The reason for the rules to begin with was safety and
    protection for the home buyers - now that is far from the case - their
    main goal is money for the coffers. So now, instead of a few inspectors
    checking that the builder is obeying a few simple rules, it's a mess of
    inept bureaucracy with dirty lucre as it's soul and safety is far from
    it's mind. Also, do you have any idea how much these rules and regulations
    have raised inflation - for example, the cost of housing? (Cont.)

    Message: 73807
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff 4  of 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:25:52

    (Cont.)
    JB> "Businessmen are no more intrinsically trustworthy and socially
    responsible than politicians. Given the opportunity, they will both wear
    the mask of social commitment, while screwing you as soon as your back is
    turned"!

    Me> Everyone of those above words are true, no doubt about it. But if the
    gov. left us alone, we would weed out the bad businesses through a very
    important tool ... it's called "BUYER BEWARE!" In other words, being more
    responsible for what we buy ourselves - not depend on gov. to protect us!
    If we go to buy a house or land, we should look into the details closely
    and not depend of someone else to do it for us. We can also get title
    insurance. I cannot understand why people don't use this latter, fairly
    inexpensive tool.  It has proven valuable in our dealings more than once.

    What has happened? A hundred idiots go out and buy property sight unseen
    and find out later it's swamp land and go crying to the gov. to do
    something about stuff like this. They do and the rest of us pay through
    the nose for the hundred idiots that should have looked into their
    purchase closer. (Cont.)

    Message: 73808
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff 5 of 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:26:48

    (Cont.)
    JB> "Should people have the right to legally write, publish, distribute,
    and read child pornography. It isn't fraud or coercion, but frankly I
    don't want to live in a society which permits it and I fail to understand
    why you(we) do?"
    Me> I think most normal people feel the same way Jeff. I think that is one
    of the ugliest things in our society today - just about the sickest too.
    But I don't think we should impose our values through the law. If we did
    in this case, then where do we draw the line?

    JB> But perhaps we should not have laws against driving while intoxicated"
    Me> Perhaps we shouldn't! Sound idiotic? Let me elaborate a bit. We have
    met this couple of late that are Americans, but world travelers and I am
    getting an education on a lot of the rest of the world on such things. For
    example, in Italy, Mexico and many parts of Europe a 'stop' sign doesn't
    mean 'stop' like our stop signs mean it! To them, it is idiotic to come to
    a full stop out in the middle of nowhere and not a car within sight. In
    the city a rolling stop is allowable. In other words, a stop sign in those
    places is like our yellow light - caution! BUT!!! If you go through a stop
    sign and cause an accident when you should have stopped or showed caution,
    they literally throw the book at you!! There is no mandatory insurance and
    your butt is buttermilk. The people know it and they do not have as many
    accidents as we do with all our laws and rules! This also could apply to
    driving while drinking here! (Cont.)

    Message: 73809
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff 6 of 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:27:37

    (Cont.)
    This guy was telling me that in Mexico city he knew a fellow that sped
    through one of those stop signs without caution and hit a little kid and
    killed him. (the guy was not drunk) They did not send him to jail, but
    made him totally responsible for 20 years for the kid's family  - that
    their needs came before his own family's - he was ostracized among his
    friends also for not being responsible to begin with. The only other
    choices he had was a prison sentence for life or to run away! In Mexico
    they do not have many and cannot afford lawyers to get them off free from
    something they should be responsible for. It should be fairly simple to
    do the same thing with drunk drivers here. Why Not?? A driver gets into a
    accident - a police officer gives him a test and he proves drunk, he goes
    to court a couple weeks later and is sentenced accordingly!! No lawyer
    would be of any use trying to get him out of his responsibility - the test
    proved he was drunk! The law says it's illegal! There would be no
    insurance company to fool with saying yea or nay to the settlement! The
    judge sets the sentence and it should be harsh. Lets assume the guys won't
    except the harsh sentence such as responsibility for the family and he
    runs away. OK - let him. His life is ruined and so is his family's if he
    does.  He is a fugitive on the run from then on and we should pursue these
    types with a vengeance. Now we coddle such people in the courts and give
    them a chance to be proven innocent. Why? It was already proven they were
    guilty weren't they? I don't see they this shouldn't at least be tried.

    Message: 73810
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff last
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 12:28:29

    (Cont.)
    We as a society need to start thinking as individual's again and stop
    letting our gov. interfere all the time. One major thing we lose sight of,
    our world existed not too long ago without all these rules and laws and
    the government's nose stuck where it doesn't belong and we got along
    PERFECTLY alright and had a lot more peace of mind! I could not even come
    close to a number of what has changed and not for the better in the last
    30 years. We have a tendency to think that just because technology has
    grown gigantic that we are improving, becoming more civilized et al. Not
    so in many cases. One of the ground rules for a good civilization is
    'getting along' with your neighbor'! We are so far from that it isn't
    funny. We let laws get passed daily with our approval that stymies our
    neighbors and friends - saying to ourselves that it is best all the way
    around! I feel that if we worked together, not with government ruling us,
    we would get things done that would help everyone. It used to be that way
    I promise you. Don't go saying there was less people then either - I came
    from a city that had 4-5 million people in it in 1940 and somehow we all
    got along pretty well, obeyed the laws and rules because we knew the
    consequences if we didn't and we worked together. I don't proclaim the
    Libertarian party will provide us all of this, but I feel that if we just
    incorporated some of it into what we've got - improved upon what we've got
    would be a giant stop in the right direction. AND NOT be afraid to try
    something new! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73811
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/Smokers
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 13:41:03

            YES, I believe those statistics.  I know more people killed with
    smoking then I do with guns.   All smokers add to the death and disease rate
    caused by that product.  VERY, VERY, VERY few people with guns add to the
    death rate you speak of.

            When I shoot, I also smile a lot - a whole lot!  But unlike smokers,
    my sport does not affect the health or infringe on anyones right to breath
    clean air.  I know there are polite smokers, but even they screw up the air
    for others and don't even realize how miserable it makes some people feel.
    Going to a restaurant for me is a problem sometimes even when I sit in the
    NON-Smoking section.  The fact there is someone sitting on the other side of
    the room in a smoking section can turn my enjoyable meal into misery for me
    Even at home, in my OWN house I can get sick from a neighbor smoking if I
    have my windows open to get some fresh air.  Getting that fresh air should
    be my right one would think.

            Cigarette smoke is the residue of your pleasure.  It permeates the
    air and putrefies my hair and clothes, not to mention my lungs.  This takes
    place without my consent.  I have a pleasure also; I like a beer now and
    again.  The residue from my pleasure is urine.  Would you be annoyed if I
    stood on a chair and pissed on your head and clothes without your consent?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73812
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann's 7 posts
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 13:49:45

            Great posts Ann....   I would like to see firecrackers again too.
    But about your "AND NOT be afraid to try something new!"  Communism was NEW
    for Russians once...and look what it got them.  It is easier to jump into
    something new, then it is to get out of it.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73813
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/last
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 15:09:33

    And so was democracy new at one time. I'm glad they tried it arn't you?
                                    -=*) ANN (*=-

    P.S. I read your smoking post and will go to the word processor to answer. I
    feel it is way too important to answer off the top of my head.

    Message: 73814
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on smoking
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 15:26:05

    I'm sorry but I find you quite fanatical regarding smoke of others - I.E. in
    restaurants, your neighbor, your right to fresh air, etc. It is one thing to
    not like it, but I think you are being ridiculous about the subject. Your
    prerogative if course, but I personally do not see how you survive at all on
    this planet??!! Every vehicle on this earth pollutes the air you breath. The
    spray cans, the plastic wrap, the fireplaces, the airplanes, the farts! Why
    you are so adament on cigarette smoke is beyond me. It is no worse than a
    diesel bus or smoldering fireplace, yet I never hear you complain about
    anything else but smoking. There are 36 million or more Americans that smoke
    in the country. Maybe not the majority, but certainly a formidable number.
    Do you purpose they quit because it bother's you?? Do you purpose that NO
    restaurant have a smoking area? Do you purpose your neighbor give it up for
    your sake? There are a million things we could do to help our air quality
    and smoking is just a small one - not even a major one!!
    Do you just limit your friendships to just 'non-smoker's'? If so, I find
    that very sad. Maybe smoking is a bad as they say it is, but to me, it's
    worse ostracizing everyone from my life that smokes because I don't like it!
    You are beyond being a 'militant non smoker'! There is no way to excape it
    Cliff. Why not try to live with it a tad better? I happen to know you
    believe in freedom - why not let the smokers have theirs. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73815
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 18:11:21

            Smoking serves no useful purpose other then to inflate one's lungs
    with some stupid drug.  Smokers care less if it makes the people about them
    sick, or even in some cases, leads to their death, as long as they get their
    drugs, their HIGH.

            I don't get sick in restaurants from cars, hair spray, or paint
    spray. I do get sick from SMOKERS...very sick.  I am not asking the world to
    stop everything that pollutes, that would be silly.  But almost everything
    you mentioned Ann, serves a useful purpose.  TRANSPORTATION can hardly be
    looked at in the same light as drug use for self satisfaction.

            Heck, I don't even want to outlaw cigarettes, I just wish the users
    of such products would do so only in their homes or in rooms set aside for
    such a purpose.  I believe if a person wants to kill him or her self, let
    them do it.

            Yes, I am a militant anti-smoker and I am proud of it!  You even
    said I believed in 'Freedom', but I see you only think that means freedom
    for you to smoke and not the freedom for me to express my dislike for
    smoking or the freedom for me to breath non-tobacco stenched air.  As a
    smoker, you have no idea as to how it STINKS!

    Message: 73816
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on friends
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 18:30:02

            Yea Annie, I got friends that smoke.  I am concerned about them too?
    Is there something wrong with that?  They are hooked on a drug...  I
    understand that too.  But most of my friends don't smoke when I am around
    them.  When they are over to see me, I provide a nice place outside for them
    to smoke if they feel they need to.  You name a GT at my house where I did
    not have a place for smokers?  Ash tray...  Seats....  Light.... I have an
    ash tray at my home in my new patio (grin) ALL the time for smokers.

            Now...all things being equal Annie, when I am over at a smokers
    place, do they in turn provide a place for Non-Smokers?  Nope!  You are on
    your soap box yelling for me to be fair to smokers...  where is their
    fairness to me?  Huh?  Annie?  Huh?

            Now you may understand why non-smokers get militant

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73817
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann, democracy
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 18:41:34

             Nothing new about that Ann. From 'demos' the people, and
    'kratein' to rule.  One of the OLDEST forms, majority rule.  So Ann, tell me
    when was it that democracy became the new idea?  Hint, the United States
    did NOT invent it.......

            Still darn good posts though, Annie!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73818
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 19:16:24

    ...
      He kept on tapping.
      He kept on now for another reason aside from the simple
    desire to speak which had started him out.  He kept on
    tapping because he didn't dare stop he didn't dare think.  He
    didn't have the courage to ask himself even so simple a
    question as how long will it be before the nurse understands
    what I am doing?  Because he knew it might be months it
    might be years it might be all the rest of his life.  All
    the rest of his life to be tapping when the merest whisper
    -- one word with the syllables barely formed by two lips --
    when that was all he needed to tell what he wanted.
      There were times when he knew he was stark raving crazy
    only from the outside he realized he must seem as he always
    had seemed.  Anyone looking down at him would have no way of
    suspecting that beneath the mask and the mucus there lay
    insanity as naked and cruel and desperate as insanity could
    ever be.  He understood insanity he knew all about it now.
    He understood the overpowering impulse to kill without
    having a reason for killing the desire to beat against
    living skulls until they were pulp the passion to strangle
    the lust for murder that was more beautiful more satisfying
    more imperative than any lust he had known before.  But he
    couldn't do it he couldn't kill he couldn't do anything but tap.

    Message: 73819
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 19:27:19

      Inside his skull there was a normal man with arms and legs
    and everything that goes with them.  It was he Joe Bonham
    trapped in the darkness of his own skull rushing frantically
    from ear-hole to ear-hole wherever in the skull there might
    be an opening.  Like a wild animal he was trying to hammer
    his way out to escape into the world beyond.  He was trapped
    in his own brain tangled in the tissues and brainmatter
    kicking and gouging and screaming to get out.  And the only
    person in the world who could help him had no idea of what
    he was doing.
      He got to thinking this nurse is keeping me prisoner.  She
    is keeping me more securely a prisoner than any jailer than
    any chain than any stone wall they could ever build around
    me.  He got to thinking of all the prisoners he had ever
    read about or heard about all the little guys from the
    beginning of the doing of things who had been caught and
    imprisoned and who had died without ever becoming free
    again.  He thought of the slaves little guys like himself
    who had been captured in war who had spent the rest of their
    lives chained like animals to oars rowing some big guy's
    ship through the Mediterranean sea.  He thought of them down
    there in the deeps of the ship never knowing where they were
    going never smelling the outer air never feeling anything
    except the oar in their hands and the shackles on their legs

    Message: 73820
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 19:32:33

    and the whip that lashed their backs when they grew tired.
    He thought of them all the shepherds and farmers and clerks
    and little shopkeepers who had suddenly been taken away from
    their way of living who had been cast into the ships and had
    stayed there away from their homes and their families and
    their native parts until finally they collapsed at their
    oars and died and were thrown out into the sea for the first
    time to touch fresh air and clean water.  He thought of them
    and he thought they were luckier than I am they could move
    they could see each other they were more nearly living than
    I and they were not imprisoned as securely.
    ...

    Message: 73821
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 20:05:45

    I lived in Walker, which is up the road from Lynx lake about 7 miles.  There
    was a creek that ran down behind our property.

    Message: 73822
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann's 7
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 20:54:53

    Those were the most coherent messages I've ever seen from her.  Stopping
    (or pausing) smoking must be good for the brain as well.

    Message: 73823
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 22:46:53

            Yea, I was thinking the same thing.  Ann's 7 posts really did
    impress me almost as much as when Sandy came home from visiting Ann last
    week, I was able to get near her without gagging.  Generaly I have to keep
    my distance from my sweet Sandy after an Ann visit.   I sure hope Ann keeps
    up her will power to kick to habbit.
            Ann has a nice house, has nice tastes in clothing, GREAT cook, and
    is quite the good l-OO-king gal, fantastic Artist, fun Trivia player, and
    can post some pretty darn good posts.  With all that tallent, why smoke?

            Yes, on Apollo, we strive for PERFECTION

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73827
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:40:20

    I refuse to respond to any of this.  My messages were posted on the $tatus
    SIG, not the PUBlic board, and non-status users have no access to them.
    They will not merely be confused, but will be greatly misinformed, since as
    usual you have either misattributed arguments to me which I have never made,
    or misunderstood the arguments I have advanced.

    You have not reproduced the text of my messages.  You have taken a coherent
    set of thoughts and selected fractured pieces to be used as punctuation in
    your confused maunderings.  I might just as well be a wooden dummy sitting
    on the lap of a ventriloquist.

    Anticipating your reaction, I specifically forbid you to reproduce the
    entire text.  I am the one who decides upon which subboards I will post my
    messages, not you.

    Message: 73828
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Rod (1/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:43:24

      >> ...if planet earth were to shatter into small bits and pieces would
      >> this constitute an important event in the universe...?

    A good question, and before answering it I need to set a frame of reference.
    And before doing that, I have to step back -- a long, long way back -- and
    take a quick look at human thought over the last few centuries.

    Prior to the Renaissance -- very roughly -- we didn't have an awful lot of
    clear thinking about science and the universe.  There were lots of theories,
    but nobody bothered to verify them.  The Greeks were particularly sloppy in
    this respect.  Wasn't it Aristotle who thought that if an object weighed a
    hundred times as much as some other object, it would fall a hundred times as
    fast?  It seems incredible today that nobody bothered to actually test this
    until Galileo took a walk up the Tower of Pisa, and dropped a cannonball and
    a bit of lead shot over the side.  They fell all the way down without
    hitting the wall because the tower leans (as everybody knows), and he proved
    that Aristotle was full of you-know-what.  Then of course Francis Bacon laid
    a lot of the groundwork for the application of "the scientific method" in
    general, with its insistence on experimental verification, and Isaac Newton
    formulated his Laws of Motion, which stood for well over two centuries.

    The drawback of Newton's Laws was that they were based on an absolute frame
    of reference.  Einstein upset all that by insisting that some phenomena
    could not be measured "absolutely", but only relative to the observer.

    Message: 73829
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Rod (2/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:44:25

    It took a while for Einstein's ideas to really sink in, because they're
    difficult to grasp and seem to contradict common sense.  But what we call
    "common sense" is only our understanding of the universe based on our
    everyday experience.  It's not every day that we see things rocketing along
    at substantial fractions of light speed, trains shortening and clocks
    slowing down and so forth.  So most of us have insufficient data to truly
    comprehend the notion of "relativity".  I think the ordinary man is slow to
    apply the concept of relativistic thinking to other fields where it's
    useful.  Much of our thought is still rooted in the absolutes of Newton.

    We can apply relativism to the field of morality, for example, as has
    already been done.  If I steal $100 from you, is that "good" or "bad"?  The
    absolutist will immediately answer "Bad!  Stealing is wrong!"  My answer
    would be the same for *practical* purposes; yet I would get to it by a
    different route.  I would first have to ask the question "good or bad from
    *whose* point of view?"  From your point of view, you've lost $100, so
    that's bad.  But from my point of view, I've *gained* $100, so that's good!

    So is it a wash?  On the surface everything seems to be even; but it isn't
    really, because yours and mine are not the *only* points of view to be
    considered.  There is also the point of view of an outside observer, or of
    "the community as a whole".  A randomly selected outside observer neither
    gains nor loses financially from my act of theft, but he is not unaffected
    by it.

    Message: 73830
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Rod (3/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:45:29

    It reinforces in his mind the idea that "theft happens", and then he gets
    worried and has to waste a lot of energy taking precautions *against* theft.
    From the point of view of the community as a whole, a high incidence of
    theft means that it has to devote lots of resources to protecting against
    theft, recovering and compensating for stolen property and so forth.  The
    community operates less efficiently as a result.  In the balance, everybody
    loses.  So from this global point of view we can judge stealing as "bad".
    It approximates a "moral absolute", yet it is derived logically.

    Is it "good" or "bad" when one Apollo user spews a string of insults at
    another, as we've seen recently?  Again, it's pleasantly cathartic, and
    therefore "good", for the insulter; "bad" for the insultee, whose feelings
    get hurt.  All square so far.  But if the insultees feel so bad that they go
    away, the user community loses as a result, including the insulters who then
    have nobody left to insult.  Black mark.  A further point is that the
    "goodness" or "badness" of the action must be judged from the point of view
    of what the insulter was actually trying to achieve.  If he or she simply
    wanted to discharge anger, or get the satisfaction of making the opponent
    walk away in a huff (an exercise of power motivation), then that goal was
    reached.  But if what was wanted was agreement, or at least understanding
    and validation, the action failed to achieve its object because it was
    tackled the wrong way.  So the "goodness" or "badness" of an action must be
    judged -- as everything must be judged -- from a particular point of view,
    or with reference to a particular set of criteria.  There are no absolutes.

    Message: 73831
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Rod (4/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:46:21

    I hope I'll be forgiven for using your question as an excuse to jack off on
    this topic of relativism.  But to come back to the question: the fact is
    that it's incomplete, and therefore meaningless, by itself unless we do
    factor in the other words you used: "given the size of the universe and the
    length of eternity", and use that to support an assumption that we're
    looking at it from the point of view of the universe as a whole.  Would it
    be important if the earth blew up?  From a cosmic point of view, no!  From
    the point of view of an observer in some other universe, no!  From the point
    of view of an Earthling, definitely yes!

    I have to add, though, that we can and do use the power of thought to place
    ourselves mentally at a viewpoint other than our own.  If we couldn't do
    that, it would be very difficult to even communicate with other people.  So
    some Altairian could be standing on his planet and seeing this little flash
    in the sky.  All it is is a momentary increase of light intensity in a
    particular sector: a little piece of data, quite insignificant by itself.
    Is it "important"?  "Important" from what point of view?  Cosmically?  No,
    it happens all the time.  Does it add to his knowledge of the universe?
    Hardly.  Could be a meteor; could be a smudge on his eyeglasses.

    Message: 73832
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Rod (5/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:47:24

    But if he chooses to think about it, to feel something about it, and say to
    himself "Boy, there's some planet out there just blew to smithereens!
    That's a pretty rotten thing to happen, to be just standing there and have
    the planet fall to pieces underneath you" -- well then, I guess it *would*
    be important to him.  And likewise, if we choose to think from a cosmic
    point of view, then when we see the Earth crumbling under us and flames
    shooting out of great chasms in the ground, perhaps we can say to ourselves
    "Here we are, just another small piece of matter serving the eternal laws of
    physics, recreating the cycle of life and death, merging once again with the
    omnipotent All."  There is a certain majesty and grandeur to being a part of
    it.  Perhaps, at a stretch, we could even feel good about it.

    Is there such a thing as positive and negative energy?  It all sounds rather
    New Age to me.  I asked my crystal about it, and my crystal just sat there
    winking at me in the light of the desk lamp as if it knew something I
    didn't, and wasn't going to tell me.  So I asked it another question: "What
    the hell did I buy Crystal d'Arques for, anyway?"  I then proceeded to
    answer my own question by filling it up with more wine, and drinking it.

    All of this hooks into a very large train of thought that I don't have time
    to go into here; I've been short on spare time of late.  What you've just
    read was written last weekend, and I didn't have time to post it -- for
    which I apologize.  I'll try to get back to this topic later.  And if Rod
    isn't reading this, then hopefully somebody else is.

    Message: 73833
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Sex scandal (1/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:48:29

    Actually the subject title is a thumping lie.  There is nothing whatsoever
    about sex in this post.  I just put that there because if I said it was
    about heat and thermodynamics, people might not bother to read it.  Anyway,
    for those of you who didn't bother to read all of Jeff Beck's thirteen-part
    post on that subject at the beginning of the week, here it is again.  Well,
    sort of.

    Except that the presentation is a little different here, more geared toward
    the popular viewpoint if you like.  Michael Flanders and Donald Swann were a
    British comedy duo who flourished in the early 60s, writing and performing
    their own material and songs.  Flanders was a large bearded man in a
    wheelchair, with a very impressive voice.  (He also once narrated a history
    of the RAF for a BBC documentary.)  Swann, by contrast, was a small
    bespectacled fellow rather like a bank clerk, who played the piano.

    Readers might wish to note that Sir Edward Boyle was Minister of something-
    or-other (Education, I think) in Macmillan's Conservative Government.
    Anyway, he was a politician.  The Beatles reference of course alludes to a
    popular song of the time.  The following transcript was taken from the album
    "At the Drop of Another Hat."

    Message: 73834
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: continued (2/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:49:29

    One of the great problems of the world today is undoubtedly this problem of
    not being able to talk to scientists -- because we don't understand science.
    They can't talk to us because they don't understand anything else, poor
    dears.  This problem -- I think it was C. P. Snow first raised it -- that's
    Sir Charles Snow, in private life -- in his book, "Science and Government".
    Mind you, I haven't read it.  I'm waiting for the play to come.  He says,
    quite rightly, it's no good going up to a scientist and saying to him as you
    would to anybody else, you know, good morning, how are you, lend me a quid
    and so on.  He'll just glare at you, or -- or make a rude *retort*, or
    something.  You have to speak to him in language that he'll understand.  I
    mean, you go up to him, you say something like, er, "Ah, H2SO4, Professor!
    Don't -- er, don't synthesize anything I wouldn't synthesize!  Oh -- and the
    reciprocal of Pi to your good wife!"  Now this he will understand.  Snow
    says that nobody can consider themselves educated who doesn't know at least
    the basic language of science.  Things like Sir Edward Boyle's Law, for
    example: the greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot
    air.  Or the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  This is very important.  I was
    somewhat shocked the other day to discover that my partner not only doesn't
    know the Second Law, he doesn't even know the First Law of Thermodynamics!
    Going back to first principles, very briefly, "Thermodynamics" of course is
    derived from two Greek words, "Thermos", meaning "hot" -- if you don't drop
    it -- and "Dynamics", meaning "dynamic", "work"; and "thermodynamics" is
    simply the science of heat and work, and the relationships between the two,
    as laid down in the Laws of Thermodynamics...

    Message: 73835
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: continued (3/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:50:19

    ...which may be expressed in the following simple terms.  After me, Donald.

    [Chanting rhythmically]
    The FIRST...  LAW...  of THERmo...  dyNAMics...
    HEAT is WORK and WORK is HEAT
                        HEAT is WORK and WORK is HEAT
    Very good!  [Snapping fingers to the rhythm]
    The SECond...  LAW...  of THERmo...  dyNAMics...
    HEAT... CANnot of itSELF... PASS from
    ONE... BOdy to a HOTter...  BOdy...
                        HEAT...  CANnot of itSELF...  PASS from
                        ONE...  BOdy to a HOTter...  BOdy...
    [Singing]
    Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter.
                        Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter.
    You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter!
                        You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter!
    'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
                        'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
    'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
                        'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
    [In unison]
    Heat is work and work is heat and work is heat and heat is work.

    Message: 73836
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: continued (4/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:51:06

    HEAT will PASS by...  conDUCtion and...
                        HEAT will PASS by...  conDUCtion and...
    HEAT will PASS by...  conVECtion and...
                        HEAT will PASS by...  conVECtion and...
    HEAT will PASS by RAdiAtion...
                        Wah, wah, wah, wah...
    And THAT'S a PHYsical LAW!
                        Da-da-da-da-da...
    [Modulating to a minor key]
    Heat is work, and work's a curse,
    And all the heat in the universe
    is gonna COOL down!...
    because it can't increase:
    then there'll be no more work,
    and there'll be perfect peace!
                        Really?
    Yeah, that's *entropy*, man!

    Message: 73837
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: concluded (5/5)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:51:45

    And all because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which lays down that

    [Chorus]
    You can't pass heat from a cooler to a hotter,
                        Whoo-hoooo,
    You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter,
                        Whoo-hoooo,
    'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
    'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.

    [Repeat chorus, singing faster and faster]
    And that's a physical LAW...

    [Breaking off]
    Oh, I'm hot!
                        Hot?  That's because you've been *working*!
    Ohhh, Beatles nothing!

    That's the FIRST and SECond LAW of THERmody...  NAMics!

    Message: 73838
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (1/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:52:42

    After I read Jeff's comments on the Republic article, the first thing I did
    was naturally to go looking for it myself.  Surprise!  I couldn't find it.
    Jeff's post was dated the morning of the 14th, and on the assumption that he
    might have been writing belatedly about an article from Wednesday's paper, I
    checked that also, and a day or two before that besides.  No article in my
    editions.  Very curious.  Is some editor playing games with who sees what?

    Reading between the lines of Jeff's comments, it's simple but instructive to
    see how facts and figures are carefully selected to promote the conclusion
    that the writer is trying to get across.  The study includes boys from 15 to
    19, and Jeff asks "what about 13- and 14-year-olds"?  I'm sure they were
    excluded because the figure for the younger age group did not support the
    writer's thesis.  Younger boys are statistically less likely to be going
    around shooting one another than older boys.  By using terms such as
    "teenage", the article conjures up an emotional picture of youth and
    vulnerability that in readers' minds equates to the word "kids".  Yet the
    13- and 14-year-olds, who were excluded, are closest to being true "kids";
    the 18- and 19-year-olds, who were included, are in fact legally adults.

    I note also that deaths by gunshot were compared to "all natural causes
    combined".  Teenage years are normally a time of rude and vigorous health,
    and deaths from natural causes are very low at this time.  Had the writer
    compared firearms deaths with highway deaths, I'm sure the figures would
    have told a very different story, but not the one he wanted us to hear.

    Message: 73839
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (2/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:53:39

    Selectivity again rears its head with mention of the black community, where
    there is typically more violence.  Figures have been chosen to support the
    writer's conclusions.  I can't say what this talk of "mother-only
    environments" means, or what selection was done in other areas, but I feel
    fairly sure that nothing relevant was included that might reduce the
    intended impact of the writer's message.

    What do we learn from this?  First of all, life is very much a matter of
    people trying to persuade others to their own point of view.  Persuading
    your boss that you deserve a big raise, for example.  Anything you have for
    sale is made out to be in excellent condition, ignoring its defects; if you
    want to buy something, you point out its flaws to drive the price down.  By
    careful selection of the facts, statistics can be made to say anything.
    Since the subject of Jeff's article was guns, I ought to quote an example to
    point out that pro-gun people do exactly the same kind of thing with numbers
    that anti-gun people do.  This time the point at issue was not pro- versus
    anti-gun, but one gun versus another.  The writer was comparing the combat
    effectiveness of the new .40 Smith and Wesson cartridge against the
    venerable but hard-hitting .45 auto.  He preferred the .45; and maybe he's
    right, or maybe he's wrong for complex reasons I won't go into here.  My own
    opinion is that it depends on the individual shooter's ability at handling
    each cartridge and gun; but I don't intend to bore the majority of readers
    with this argument.  It's his use of the figures that is interesting.

    Message: 73840
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (3/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:54:37

    In the article he cited figures for different brands of ammo in both
    calibers, quoting bullet weights, muzzle velocities, and muzzle energies.
    These varied somewhat by brand, but within limited ranges.  Now, the average
    energy figures for the .40 S&W were about 15 percent *more* than those for
    the .45, as one could see from the tables; and this didn't support the
    writer's preference.  So he then pointed out that these paper energy figures
    don't tell the whole story as far as "stopping power" is concerned.  As far
    as that goes, he was no doubt right.  He then went on to question whether
    "energy", which is proportional to the square of the velocity, is the right
    thing to compare, and whether we ought to consider momentum instead, which
    is proportional to the straight velocity.  But then he also said we ought to
    "include a factor for the size of the hole produced.  Jeff Cooper's old
    short form calculation is extremely helpful...  [and] includes a factor for
    the cross-sectional area of the bullet."  The writer then pulled a couple of
    figures out of a hat which "proved" his conclusion -- that the .45 really is
    more "powerful" than the .40.

    Unfortunately in doing so, he lost my confidence completely.  First of all,
    I have no idea what "Jeff Cooper's old short form calculation" is, and while
    I can easily prove that the *ratio* of his two numbers is correct, I still
    do not know how he got them.  Somewhere he divided by a factor of about
    1240, and I don't know why.  In *comparing* the final figures, this doesn't
    matter.  But my nasty mind is instinctively suspicious of anybody who tells
    me something without telling me the reason why, even if it *seems* harmless.

    Message: 73841
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (4/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:55:33

    Secondly, I would have to question whether it is valid to "include a factor
    for the size of the hole produced" when we have already made an adjustment
    by switching from the comparison of energy to the comparison of momentum.
    Could he in reality be making the same allowance twice over?

    But lastly, I am extremely suspicious about why the writer switched so
    suddenly from comparing actual figures that can be seen in the tables to
    simply presenting us with ratios.  Earlier on, he tells us that "the .40
    [has] about 88 percent of the .45's momentum", instead of quoting the actual
    figures.  A little trial and error with my Radio Shack calculator tells me
    what it is that he's hiding with these ratios.  He is no longer comparing
    the *average* figures for the .40 ammo with the *average* figures for the
    .45.  Instead, he has obviously compared the *slowest* .40 ammo with the
    *fastest* .45.  Selectivity indeed!

    But then, this will go clean over the heads of 90 percent of his readers,
    who probably don't even know how to compute energy from bullet weight and
    muzzle velocity.

    All this reminds me of an amusing piece I read a while ago, explaining the
    true meaning of the language used in research papers.  For example, the
    phrase "Typical results are given" really means "My best results are given".
    If anybody hasn't seen this list, I'll be glad to post it some time.  (And
    what *that* means is "when I can find the blasted thing".)

    Message: 73842
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (5/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:56:34

    Returning to the original Republic article, it is possible to create effects
    in the reader's mind by the appropriate choice of emotive words, even
    without distorting the facts.  Well, without distorting them very much.
    Take "semi-automatic machine guns".  This is indeed an oxymoron, since a
    "machine gun" is by definition fully automatic.  Yet the term isn't devoid
    of meaning.  Clearly what is referred to is a weapon originally designed to
    deliver automatic fire, but built in a modified version to function only
    semi-automatically: an Uzi, an AR-15, a MAC-11, an AK-47, etc.  Such a
    weapon is no more "dangerous" than, say, a Browning BAR semiauto hunting
    rifle with a big magazine attached.  But the word "machine gun" carries
    emotional overtones of terrifying power.  Now, I could just as well discuss
    an M-16 or an AK-47 in the form used by military forces with their full auto
    capability, and refer to them as "automatic rifles"; or speak of a MAC-11 or
    an Uzi as "selective-fire weapons".  These terms -- especially the latter --
    sound far less threatening; yet the weapons they describe have greater
    firepower.  But of course, that's putting things the wrong way round as far
    as the author of that article was concerned.  The lesson we learn is to turn
    off the emotional right brain and ask the logical left brain what these
    terms mean in reality.

    So much for manipulation.  The second thing we learn is about perception of
    risk.  The day before Jeff's article, the topic of risk perception received
    commonsense discussion in the Wall Street Journal from Paul H. Rubin, former
    chief economist of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

    Message: 73843
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (6/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:57:33

    Rubin's jumping-off point was the recent poisoning of Sudafed capsules.
    While this aroused a certain amount of mass hysteria, like the Tylenol
    poisonings of a few years ago, Rubin pointed out that the actual probability
    of being poisoned in this manner is so low that the money spent on
    tamperproof packaging, and other financial losses, would have saved more
    lives if it had been spent in other ways.  The thrust of his article is that

         Before mass communications, a person probably would learn of a hazard
         only if it harmed someone in the community.  Such risks were likely to
         be sufficiently probable to be worth worrying about.  Today, however,
         our intuitions about risk are not a good guide to action.  We can learn
         of risks with minute probabilities. Indeed, the more unusual the death,
         the more newsworthy it becomes, and we may be more likely to learn
         about such risks than about more common and more significant risks,
         such as death from automobile accidents.  The Alar episode teaches that
         we may even learn about nonexistent risks.

         Because of the publicity given trivial risks, people incorrectly
         perceive that the world is becoming riskier.  In reality, it is
         becoming ever more safe, and life expectancies are continuously rising.
         Life expectancy at birth in the U.S. was 59.7 years in 1930; by 1987 it
         had risen to 75 years.  Moreover, death rates from accidents of all
         sorts are falling in the U.S.

    Message: 73844
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (7/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:58:35

    The risk of homicide by firearm is much larger than the risk of homicide by
    randomly poisoned capsule.  Nevertheless, by comparing it with the risk of
    "death from natural causes" in teenagers -- actually quite a small risk --
    the risk of firearm homicide is made out to be much larger in people's minds
    than it really is.  By contrast, the negative effects of restrictive
    firearms laws on the quality of many people's lives are given no weight
    against this risk of teenage death.  These negative effects are not limited
    only to those people who use firearms for sporting purposes, or even to the
    possible consequences of shifting the balance of power between government
    and the governed.  Some studies showed that crime rates have *dropped* in
    areas where firearm ownership by ordinary people was actively encouraged.

    Still, I don't intend to argue about firearms ownership here.  I'd like to
    draw some more general lessons.  As I pointed out earlier, when somebody has
    a case they want to argue, it is inevitable that they will present the facts
    most favorable to their case and ignore those that detract from it.  We can
    justifiably demand reasonable honesty from people and insist that they not
    tell outright lies.  Nevertheless, people will have this habit of bending
    the facts just a little, and there's not much we can do to change human
    nature.  What we can do is to make allowances for it, by reading and
    listening to everything with a critical eye and ear, by constantly
    challenging what is presented to us, and by never failing to ask ourselves
    "just where is this person coming from, and what do they have to gain?"
    Unfortunately it's difficult to educate John Q. Public to do this.

    Message: 73845
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (8/9)
    Date: 03/17/91  Time: 23:59:39

    However, it is even more difficult to challenge a view when it seems to be
    the only view ever presented.  If we hear a message or a "fact" stated often
    enough, however speciously, it tends to become reality in our minds.  There
    has to be an opportunity for airing alternative views.  Now I'm not worried
    about an article in a gun magazine that claims the superiority of the .45
    over the .40 caliber, because I know that in some future issue another
    writer will step forward to claim that on the contrary, the .40, or the nine
    millimeter, or something else, is far better.  And to most people it doesn't
    even matter.  Neither am I worried about claims that dinosaurs were wiped
    out by a massive meteor strike (as opposed to intervention by UFO aliens),
    or the superiority of Macintoshes to IBM PCs, or Fords to Chevrolets,
    because there will always be somebody else to argue the opposite point of
    view.  But I am very worried about who is controlling our media.

    The U.S. Constitution was carefully crafted on the assumption that
    government has the potential to become an enemy of the people, and it set up
    various safeguards to limit the power of government.  Within certain
    limitations these safeguards have worked fairly well over the centuries.  It
    also called for a free press as an important part of these safeguards.  It
    seems to me, though, that the ability of a free press to safeguard the
    liberties of the people is predicated upon the idea that newspapers (the
    only medium of mass communication in those days) would typically be owned
    and directed by small local concerns, and that the random distribution of
    their ownership would guarantee a broad spectrum of political views.

    Message: 73846
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff's article (9/9)
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 00:00:36

    Today we see a concentration of ownership of the mass media, which now
    include radio and TV, into the hands of a smaller and smaller number of
    corporations.  The same is true of book publishers, and even bookstores.
    Harking back to the gun issue, a couple of years back an interesting book
    was published on the use of firearms for self-defense by women.  "Armed and
    Female", by Paxton Quigley, had a great deal of trouble getting the
    necessary publicity because two of the major bookstore chains, Waldenbooks
    and B. Dalton, seemed to be doing everything in their power to hide the
    existence of the book.  When any power bloc, whether governmental or
    commercial, controls and restricts the flow of information to the public, we
    are in very serious trouble.  The issue of course is not limited to
    firearms; but it is surely significant that firearms information is a
    symptom, because firearms are a symbol and an embodiment of power; and the
    issue is one of how much power belongs in the hands of the public.

    Cars are another example of power in the hands of individual members of the
    public, and it isn't an accident that some people would like to restrict the
    public's ability to drive their own cars, or closely constrain the way that
    they do it.  But I'll say more about that another time.

    Knowledge is power, and the withholding of information is a classic tool to
    retain power.  We do well not only to challenge what the media tell us, but
    also to ask what they hide from us.  And you can bet it isn't all about
    firearms.

    Message: 73847
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Vote
    Subject: How do you vote?
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 00:09:31

    Do you consider it necessary to preserve the Union of Soviet Socialist
    Republics as a renewed federation of equal, sovereign republics in which
    human rights and freedoms of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?

    This is the question presented to Soviet voters -- today, I believe.  Sounds
    as if it begs for a "yes" vote, doesn't it?  If you look closely at the
    wording, however, the *real* question underlying it is "should the Soviet
    Union be preserved?" -- as opposed to "should its component parts become
    autonomous?"  Clearly the Soviets are not far behind us in the wording of
    questions, because this reminds me very much of the kind of rubbish we get
    in our junk mail.  "Should homosexual teachers be allowed to come into our
    classrooms and corrupt our children's purity?"  "Should labor laws be
    changed to deprive workers of the right to free collective bargaining?"  And
    so on, always tying the question to a specific predicate that you may or may
    not agree with.

    Usually, too, the people asking these questions want you to give them money
    as well.

    Message: 73848
    Author: Robert Andrews
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 02:36:46

    You might bear in mind that the point of Einstein's relativity is not that
    everything is relative.  The point of relativity is not what's relative, but
    rather, what's the same for everybody.  The entire point of the special
    theory is that physical laws ARE absolutely the same for two observers in
    uniform relative motion.  General relativity simply extends this domain of
    absoluteness by including relative motions which are not uniform, but
    accelerated.  So the point is not,  it's all relative; the point is what IS
    relative and what is NOT.

    By analogy, one should not be hasty in dismissing absolutes from the domain
    of morality, merely because some things there are relative and some are not,
    and our delineation is dynamic, not static.  Pragmatism is ultimately
    sterile and even fails its own goal, since according to it, anything which
    benifits me is practical if I can get away with it: my ideas of what I can
    get away with may differ substantially from yours.

    Message: 73849
    Author: Robert Andrews
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 02:40:56

    Very amusing.  But if you read Jeff Beck's thirteen-parter, you'll know that
    heat is NOT work.

    Message: 73850
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: thirteen-parter
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 02:57:11

    Speaking of which, I accidentally deleted the fifth part.  If anyone is
    interested in having it re-posted, let me know, otherwise I will allow the
    rest to quietly scroll into oblivion.

    Message: 73851
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 03:14:42

    Nice posts.  Your point about 18 and 19 year-olds had escaped me entirely,
    when I originally analyzed the article.

    Another alarm bell when reading "statisticulations" is the use of averages
    which do not explain what kind of averages they are.  For the benifit of
    others, though I'm sure you know this, G., there are three types: mean,
    median, and mode.  The mean average is the kind we all know about.  The
    median average is that figure in a group in which half the values are above
    it, and half below it.  The mode average is that figure in a group which
    occurs most often.  These averages are often mixed to suit the conclusions
    of the author, without telling you which are which, and quite often, the
    type of average applied is not the type which would be most illuminating.
    The use of decimal figures in averages should also, generally, be cause for
    suspicion, or at least scrutiny.  Since averages are usually rough guesses
    anyway, by the nature of data collecting process, which inevitably leaves
    out things it should not, and includes things it shouldn't, this use of
    decimal figures tends to mislead the reader into imagining a greater
    accuracy or grasp of the matter than actually exists.  Of course, decimal
    numbers, which suggest accuracy, are impressive.  Another problem with
    percentages, particularly in polls, aside from the problem of random
    sampling, is the absence of information on how accurate it is.  Even a
    statement that a "plus or minus margin of error of four percentages points"
    is in effect is worthless by itself, since a further figure, the "degree of
    significance," tells you how accurately this margin may reflect the range.

    Message: 73852
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cont. from last
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 03:26:05

    It is always best to think of percentages, even in polls where random
    sampling is properly treated, as a range, rather than a figure attained with
    scientific decimal precision.  If poll blithely announces that 75 percent of
    the American people feel this way or that about something, you have been
    told nothing.  If there is a margin of error announced, say of 5 percentage
    points (and there is a difference between percent and percentage points) you
    know a little more.  If you are told that the degree of significance is 90
    percent, then here's what you know: You know that, of the people who
    responded to that poll, there is a 90 percent chance that between 70 and 80
    percent of *those who responded* SAID that they believed such and such, and
    that there is a 10 percent chance that either less than 70 percent or more
    than 80 percent actually SAID that.  Of course, you don't know WHO was
    chosen to be polled, how many there were, why these people should represent
    a nation of 250+ million people, who chose to actually respond, and whether
    or not their response matched the way they actually feel.

    Message: 73853
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: War!
    Subject: Smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 05:34:07

     Those statistics that you choose to ignore, Ann, are FACTS, not fantasy. I
    have personally been witness to the post mortems of people who have died in
    the service, and have seen the difference between the lungs of smokers and
    non-smokers, and this was in the 40s, before all the facts were as well
    publicized as they are today concerning the killer weed, tobacco. I do not
    question the numbers at all, except to think that they may be too
    conservative, of those whom smoking has killed, either by direct or indirect
    (second-hand) ingestion. Cancer, emphysema, heart problems, and many more
    fatal diseases can be attributed in a large part to smoking. Of that there
    is absolute proof, and no doubt about it.
     My NO SMOKING sign is not aimed at my friends, who either do not smoke
    themselves or are aware of my allergic reaction to the stuff and considerate
    enough not to smoke in my presence, but is directed to those inconsiderate
    clods in the form of sales or "service" personnel who used to come to my
    door almost daily with one of the filthy weeds hanging from their lips or in
    their hands, thinking that it is some kind of constitutional right to
    pollute the air that I have to breathe.
     If you choose to take what I have posted for my own protection personally,
    that is your problem, not mine. Your pleas in defense of your addiction fall
    on deaf ears.

    Message: 73854
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smokers' "freedom"
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 05:53:56

     The "freedom" you request for nicotine addicts, Ann, that "Freedom" to
    pursue their addiction wherever, whenever and as they please, would directly
    affect and deny the freedom of the majority of the people to breathe
    relatively clean, unpolluted air. Aerosol cans with a polluting propellant
    are fast becoming things of the past. Granted, automibiles pollute, but
    steps are being taken to greatly reduce that, and such pollution goes into
    the air and is dispersed relatively soon. Tobacco smoke, and the poisonous
    residue thereof, however, remains in the air as well as on everything it
    touches. Walk into a room or building where smoking is permitted the morning
    after a large affair, and the first thing that assails you is the acrid odor
    of stale cigarette smoke. Open a bar in the morning, and the smell o smoke
    even outweighs the smell of stale beer. That offensive odor permeates the
    clothes, the hair, even the body of a smoker, to say nothing of the
    furniture, drapes, carpeting, etc. of the home of the addict. There is proof
    positive of the hazards of second hand smoke to the non smoker who is forced
    to inhale the air polluted by the smoker. The non-smoking children of
    smoking parents are 5 times more likely to contract a smoking related
    disease than the children of non-smokers. That is a FACT. What about their
    rights, or freedoms?
     So you want the "freedom" to indulge yourself in your addiction? Regardless
    of what that "freedom" does to the rights of others around you? WEll, be my
    guest! Inhale all you want of the filthy weed! Just don't abridge my rights
    and freedoms by exhaling!

    Message: 73855
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:38:40

    You say it serves no useful purpose - but that's not true in my case at
    least - I love to smoke! So does Whitey. I also do not find the smell of
    them offensive as you do whether I smoke or not. My sense of smell is in
    full bloom right now and smoke smells great to me. It is a matter of 'to
    each his own'! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73856
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff again
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:47:13

    I will give you credit as to providing a place for smokers at GT's but will
    you tell me how I was to provide you a non-smoking place at my party you
    came to when 99% of the people there smoked??? The only place would have
    been outside and you would have been alone. The other non smokers .. Dan
    Anderson, SAndy and Rose didn't complain or die from the smoke, so they
    wouldn't have been outside with you. The computer room was like a smoke
    filled bar and I don't blame any non smoker for not going in there. Anyway,
    you knew we smoked and I told Sandy before you came to warn you that almost
    everyone else did too. If you think I was being rude to you, I am sorry, but
    I did have other guests to think about.
    When you and Sandy are here alone, we do not smoke close to you nor blow it
    in your face, but you cannot ask us to stop smoking while you are here. In
    the summer, we can be outside.
    One word of advice - why don't you stop worrying about your friends that
    smoke - concerned - and just sit back and enjoy them?? Let people be what
    they are without condemnation. In other words - relax! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73857
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on demo
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:48:28

    You know, that is a good question. I really don't know when democracy became
    the new idea. Clue us in with a tutorial. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73858
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:50:31

    Ah yes! Walker - a very beautiful area even if it's quite primitive -
    meaning no services - at least back in 1976 or so. We though of building
    there one time, but didn't think we would like all the darkness from the
    trees all the time. We use to go to a mine there and pick through it.
                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73859
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:51:29

    Actually, no! I can't think as well without smoking! Another myth smashed!
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73860
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on my assets
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 09:54:25

    Gads man, with all those assets, what difference that I smoke. Everyone has
    to have a vice and I am so perfect, I only have that one little one! *Heh

    If you keep your distance from sweet SAndy after she has visited me, you
    need help boy! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73861
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 10:01:11

    Well excuse me fellow. I just uploaded them on the main board. What's the
    big deal.
    Don't go telling me I misunderstood your arguments - I have them right in
    front of me right now - they are clear and precice.
    You "forbid me to reproduce the entire text" - what entire text? Now you
    aren't being coherent. You can't forbid me anything on this board.
    Why don't you ask me nicely to put the text where you want it or is that
    beyond you? I made a small mistake, not a fatal error! Grow up!
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73862
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 10:06:07

    Re: "Your pleas in defense of your addiction fall on deaf ears"!
    Does that mean you have a closed mind Pauley? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73863
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Pauley
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 10:10:26

    I've got just one question --- how many people smoke that DON'T die from
    it??? You have all these facts, how about this one???
    Heck, I bet you don't know how many people die a year, period?!
    Sorry, I guess this isn't just one question -- but what are the ages of the
    people that die from smoking! For one to take a statistic at face value, one
    must know all the aspects of it! Am I right? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73864
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann/Smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 10:48:04

    Well bully for you ! You find you love to smoke. Well I hate it when I have
    to breathe the stink of other people's addiction.

    Message: 73865
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/dying
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 10:50:37

    Edward R. Murrow, Chet Huntley, Nat King Cole, Oscar Levant, John Wayne...

    Message: 73866
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff/Moving Messages
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 11:09:56

    > I refuse to respond to any of this.  My messages were posted on
    > the $tatus SIG, not the PUBlic board...

    This should have been listed under the category "Joke."  You seem to feel
    there's no problem with making public a conversation you and Beau are having
    via the [P]ost Office -- Apollo's only truly private forum, yet chastise Ann
    for continuing a conversation you started on a SIG open to all [$]tatus
    users and making it available to a wider audience.  I might also point out
    that figuring out your discussion with Beau was much more difficult that
    jumping into the conversation Ann joined.

    Are you afraid of the added scrutiny your point of view might undergo?

    And while we're at it...

    Message: 73867
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff/Libertarians
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 11:12:03

    > This argument that we must not discriminate at all between acts
    > which do not fall into the categories of fraud and coercion, or
    > else none of us are safe, is a mad delusion.

            I'm not sure I've ever heard any libertarian (I'll use the
    lower-case to include Libertarians as well.) claim that acts of fraud and
    coercion are the only deeds that should be illegal.  Matters of safety have
    always also been included.
            Also, your argument begins to fall apart when it becomes so clear
    you believe all libertarians subscribe to that philosophy's most radical
    views.  There are many shades of republicanism, socialism and even
    democracy.  Why do you act as if the most extreme strains of libertarianism
    are the only ones?

    Message: 73868
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Thermodynamic Beatle
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 11:12:45

    I don't get the Beatles reference in Gordon's post.  Can anyone enlighten
    me?

    Message: 73869
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 11:27:14

    I tell you what - some of you are fanatic militant non smokers - I am a
    fanatic militant smoker - you arn't going to change and neither am I, so
    lets drop it! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73870
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 11:30:38

    Thank you very much for clear and precise posts on Libertarianism.
    Personally, I've always avoided the extreme ones. They are out there and
    that must be what Jeff reads only. I don't know.-=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73871
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: $Jeff/crime
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 13:06:07

       Your message on individual accountability (73796) sounded like something
    I would say. It also leads to the point that many, or maybe even most, of
    those shooting deaths between young black men can be attributed to drug
    prohibition and the gangsterism it fosters.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 73872
    Author: Marc Elliott
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: new
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 15:04:18

    Hi! Wanna talk?

    Message: 73873
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 17:05:51

    No.

    Message: 73874
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 18:20:17

      He thought of the slaves deep under the street levels of
    Carthage before the Romans came and destroyed the city.  He
    remembered from some time way back in the past how he had
    read of the Carthaginian slaves and what they did and how
    they were treated.  How the great Carthaginian lords wanting
    someone to guard their treasure stores would find a healthy
    young man and put out his eyes with sharp sticks so he
    wouldn't be able to see where they took him and thus learn
    the location of their treasures.  Then they would take him
    poor blinded young guy down into the passages under the
    level of the streets to the door of the treasure house.
    There they chained one arm and one leg to the door and one
    arm and one leg to the wall so that for anyone to enter the
    seal would have to be broken and the seal was the living
    breathing body of a man.  He thought of the Carthaginian
    slaves down in the darkness blinded and chained and he
    thought they were lucky guys.  They died soon there was no
    one there to take care of them to make sure the breath of
    life stayed in their bodies as long as possible.  They were
    in agony but they died soon and even in their agony they
    could stand on two legs they could pull against their
    chains.  They could hear and when someone spoke some great
    noble coming down into the treasure house they could hear
    the blessed sound of a human voice.

    Message: 73875
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 18:30:27

      He thought of the slaves who built the pyramids thousands
    of them tens of thousands of them spending their whole lives
    to put up a dead monument to a dead king.  He thought of the
    slaves who fought each other in the Coliseum in Rome for the
    entertainment of big guys who sat in the boxes and held
    their thumbs up or down to give the slaves life or death.
    He thought of the slaves when they disobeyed -- ears lopped
    off hands hacked away screaming tongues flexed with cries
    for mercy even as they were pulled out by the roots so that
    no secrets would be betrayed.  Little guys all over the
    world shot down stabbed crucified boiled in oil whipped to
    death burned at the stake -- all these things were the fate
    of slaves the fate of the little guy the fate of men like
    himself.  Only the slaves could always die but he couldn't
    and he was mutilated far beyond any slave who ever lived.
    Yet he was one of them he was part of them he too was a
    slave.  He too had been taken away from his home.  He too
    had been put into the service of another without his
    consent.  He too had been sent to a foreign country far from
    his native parts.  He too had been forced to fight against
    other slaves of his own kind in a strange place.  He too had
    been mutilated and branded forever.  He too was at last a
    prisoner in the narrowest cell of them all the cell of his
    own horrible body awaiting only the relief of death.

    Message: 73876
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Ann...Sigh
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 20:08:05

            I would like to enjoy them.... You don't seem to be getting the
    point.  Smoke makes me SICK!  Makes me feel lousy!   It also has been proven
    that second hand smoke KILLS people....  50,000 a year!  Second hand smoke
    hurts people who don't smoke more than a person who smokes.

            Smoke also STINKS, Ruins car interiors (I never buy used cars from
    smokers).  Yellows the ceilings in homes and just makes every thing reek of
    a stench that I simply can't stand.

            You say your sense of smell is keen?  Smokers have a deadend sense
    of smell...they may think it is keen...but science has proven otherwise.
    My Uncle Bob never thought it smelled, and it was YEARS after he had quit
    before he realized just how bad it did stink.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73877
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann Statistic
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 20:31:40

            You ask for a 'statistic' Ann...  Women use to live a lot longer
    then men.... lately however, the gap is fastly closing because more women
    have taken up SMOKING.

            And yes, smoking does not seem to hurt some that do so.  But this
    number is very few...and while it does not hurt them, they (the smoker)
    shave years off the lives of people around them.

            And Ann, I did not expect you to stop smoking at your own house.
    Heck, you smoke at my house even if it is out side.  The point being is that
    you do not do without your drugs, and you were yelling at me for not being
    fair to smokers...yet admit that you could not provide the same courtesy for
    the non-smokers whom you say are 'Not Fair'.  My drug is clean air, and you
    deny my rights to it.

            No Blood for Oil...  Hmmm 100 to 200 Americans lost their lives for
    something that is VITAL to the economy of the world.

            How about "No Blood for Tobacco"....  Conservative 50,000 per year
    for nothing but a selfish high that does nothing for the world economy.
    Hell, more Americans die by cigarette lit fires every year then the number
    of Americans killed in the Iraq war.  Last year my brothers baby sitters
    family was wiped out by a smoker falling asleep.  FACT!

    Message: 73878
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: SIG name change
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 20:41:56

            The DEVil SIG is now the FINal Frontier or known by its users as the
    'End of the Universe'.

            It will be a SIG where we can bid fond farewell to someone or talk
    about things related to death (smoking) ha ha or maybe life.  Let's see what
    happens!

            No more will it be considered an atheist SIG only... Anyone wanting
    on, leave me mail.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73879
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Soon to be new
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 20:54:54

            I still can't believe some users refuse to answer a simple poll
    question on colors...  geesh!

            But, I soon have a very important question for you $tatus users.

            Bill Burkett (Hang-Person) Master @ Arms is doing a job for Apollo
    that I think he should be given some SYSOP powers.  The power I have in mind
    is for him to be able to ZAP a real bad post or to be able to [E]dit
    anyone's post if it has value but contains a 'No-no'.  At this time only
    Sandy and I have this power, but sometimes we are not here, or we would like
    to take a vacation...or whatever.  To give this power to Bill Burkett (who I
    feel can handle it) I feel should be up to the majority of the users, whom
    it might affect.

            I will post this question in form of a [V]ote shortly, so give it
    some thought.  And PLEASE if you have not done so, pick your favorite color
    of the ones listed...  simple...  just do it...fo me... please....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73880
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: smoking
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 21:23:13

    I smoked for a little under (2 months) 10 years. Last year in January of
    '90 over the super-bowl weekend...I quit. Cold stone Turkey. I have
    only looked back in the sense that I wonder why it took me so long to
    muster up my strength and just *stop*.

    Anyone who tells you that they like the smell of smoke is telling you
    only half the truth. Plain fact is that the "nice" party of smoking lasts
    a very short few minutes of each day..then its just habit and sometimes
    plain annoying. (Not to mention what it is like for others..)

    Nowadays I walk out on places that donot provide smoke-free environments.
    Notice the distinction here: SMOKE *FREE* vs NON-SMOKING.
    It takes some special ventillation and separate AC units to run a true
    SMOKE FREE environment.
    All the Stuart Andersons Black Angus places I've been to have been SMOKE
    FREE.
    Quit now. You'll love the improvement!

    Message: 73881
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bill Burkett
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 22:05:16

    There is no problem with my posting a message of any kind on the public
    board, so long as it does not violate the SysOp's rules of message content
    for messages accessible to minors.  Nor did I move a conversation.  I
    started to continue a face to face conversation in email, then decided it
    might be of interest to a larger audience.

    Ann, on the other hand, attacked messages which I posted on a SIG
    inaccessible to non-status users.  Since I have no intention of reproducing
    a set of messages on two subboards, I find that annoying.  It would not have
    been nearly as irritating if she had simply replied to my arguments,but, not
    satisfied with that, she insisted on building a straw man which she then
    proceeded to destroy.
    And no, I'm not afraid of any added scrutiny.  It's just that, when
    responding to a message which Dean Hathaway posted on the $TAtus SIG, I had
    the courtesy to post my response there.  I could have responded on the
    public board instead, representing his arguments however I pleased without
    allowing others the opportunity to see what he actually said.  And since it
    was part of an ongoing discussion, in order to get the full picture, it
    really would have required transplanting close to a dozen posts, in order
    for the full thread of conversation to be followed.  This was further
    exacerbated by the fact that my questions were directed to a knowledgeable
    libertarian, but were answered by someone who by her own admission is not a
    knowledgeable libertarian, as though she were actually clarifying the
    position of libertarians.

    Message: 73882
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Bill Burkett
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 22:08:07

    Why do you reply to messages directed at Dean Hathaway?  It is *his* set of
    beliefs I wanted clarified, not yours.  When I want to know what Joe Blow
    thinks most libertarians believe, I'll ask.

    Message: 73883
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/drugs&crime
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 22:11:30

    I would tend to agree to the extent that easy money is a powerful incentive
    to those already predisposed to get it any way they can, and that drug
    prohibition seems bankrupt, or worse.  It's time to look at some
    alternatives.

    Message: 73884
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: smoking statistics
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 22:12:55

    Complete, exhaustive studies are available from the AMA and the office of
    the Surgeon General.

    Message: 73885
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: PUBlic/Private/etc.
    Date: 03/18/91  Time: 23:00:54

            Let's get this strait....

            If you reply to messages, you should do it on the same SIG/board
    that those you are replying to are on. If not done this way it is
    confusing... and to the Non-$tatus member... a one sided argument.

            If you wish to move them to another SIG, the parties involved should
    ALL agree.

            If you are doing something in PRIVATE mail, both parties should
    agree before bringing anything PUBlic.

            However, once it is on the PUBlic board/s, ANYONE may jump in no
    matter whom it may be directed at, after all this is a full participation
    board, you all paid your dews!  It is noted that if person A askes person B
    a question, person C can't answer for person B, but can add to or state how
    person C feels about the question.   If this is not agreeable to person A,
    then it should be taken to PRIVATE mail.

            This is how BBS's are run...  okay guys?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73886
    Author: Ben Trumby
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Burkett's powers
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 03:00:43

    Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.

    Message: 73887
    Author: Ben Trumby
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Sysop
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 03:02:55

    George or Hormuz?

    Message: 73888
    Author: Scott Cubbage
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Hi gang!
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:17:06

    Wow. Long time no see! Does anybody remember me?

    Message: 73889
    Author: Scott Cubbage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: the past
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:27:15

    I would reminisce about the good old days but I can't remember them! No
    kidding. I had a motorcycle accident three months ago and I only got out of
    the hospital last week. I was in a coma for most of that time and still have
    a partial memory loss, especially for a period of a couple of years
    including the time I was here. I found some old printouts and was talking
    with my doctor who said I should visit Apollo because it might help me
    remember things. So please, if anybody remembers me tell me about myself as
    they knew me then. Parts of my life are all a blurry haze.

    Message: 73890
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:31:24

    Your statement to Cliff is a non-sequiter. Personal pleasure does not
    constitute a "useful purpose". THere is absolutely nothing constructive,
    progressive or positive, either to the addict or those in proximity to the
    addict, about smoking. Nothing.

    Message: 73891
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie's question
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:37:39

    "Does that mean you have a closed mind Pauley?"
     When it comes to people so rude and inconsiderate as to blow their filthy
    exhaust in my face, you dam right I do! If you want to poison yourself, why
    don't you just take a large dose of cyanide or something and get it over
    with. At least that way you won't be endangering others. While you are
    committing slow suicide with those cancer sticks, you place everyone you
    come in contact with in jeopardy. When I'm one of those unfortunates, you
    better believe you'll never convince me of anything good ever coming from
    your addiction!

    Message: 73892
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:43:03

     There are only two facts that need to be known, and those two have been
    proven over and over and over again, without question and without one shred
    of argument.
    1. Smoking kills.
    2. Quitting can and does extend the life span of the individual.
     Excuse me. A third FACT. Passive (second hand) ingestion of tobacco smoke
    also kills. This is not supposition or conjecture. It is TRUTH!
     So if it's any consolation, whwen you go down from your addiction, you
    probably won'T go down alone. You'll take a few innocents with you. Like
    maybe one of your terrific grandchildren who, hopefully, haven't fallen
    slave to the same addiction you have.

    Message: 73893
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Scott Cubbage
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 05:54:03

     Sorry to hear about your accident, Scott. I vaguely remember you from the
    past, but unfortunately, my memory is no good enough to recall anything
    significant that would be of any help. Anyway, welcome back to the land of
    the living, and may your memory and your body return to normal soon. Stick
    around. I'm sure that you'll find some help here, or at least have some fun
    trying. God bless.

    Message: 73894
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliffy #73876
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:23:55

    Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're in for much needed rain again.
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73895
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliffy #73877
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:25:53

    Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to be much needed rain
    again. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73896
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:34:40

    I don't know what your problem is and you do have one, but what the heck do
    you think a BBS is for? (Re: your post to Bill ... "Why do you reply to
    messges directed at Dean Hathaway?") Why shouldn't he? I thought all the
    members had a right to reply to any public post on this board??!! Isn't that
    the essence of BBSing Jeff? Did you REALLY think you could go public with
    those Libertarian messages and NOT have anyone respond but Dean? That would
    certainly be naive on your part if true.

                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73897
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley #73890
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:36:54

    Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
    rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73898
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley #73891
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:37:53

    Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
    rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73899
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley #73892
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 07:38:47

    Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
    rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73900
    Author: Ed Sharpe
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: memories then & now
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 08:07:37

       Hello there all!  What a coincidence!  I too am an old-time user.  I too
    suffered a recent tragic accident.  But I didn't lose my memory in a
    motorcycle crash; I lost my personality in a freak accident.
       About eight months ago, my wife and I went to Seaworld.  Everything was
    fine until she insisted on getting a picture of me kissing Shamu.  I was a
    little scared, but after talking with the tour guide (and slipping him a few
    bucks) he arranged for it.  Well, my wife got her Polaroid ready and I
    leaned over the edge of the pool.  The tour guide had me rub bait all over
    my face.  He said it would attract the critter.  Boy, was he right.  Shamu
    came up to "kiss" me, and after that, I woke up in the hospital.  It appears
    that Shamu had a kippered herring or something stuck between the teeth of
    his lower jaw, and the thing (the herring, not Shamu) was stiff from rigor
    mortis, and the dad-gummed herring pierced the orbit of my right eye and
    severed some nerves connecting my thalamus to my frontal lobes; which
    effectively gave me a lobotomy!
       Well, the disfigurement was secondary.  I now wear a prosthetic forehead,
    which, in the days of these miracle polymers, can't be distinguished from
    the real thing.  But my personality was lost forever.  I had to rebuild a
    new one, painstakingly.  In recovery, I got to watch a lot of TV.  I had
    always been a fan of Charlie's Angels, and it is still around in
    syndication.  I liked the mysterious guy whose face you never saw, who gave
    the Angels their assignments.  So I modeled my personality after him.  I'm
    a little one-dimensional, but then, so was he.  I also read a lot of Lil'
    Abner cartoons, and this gave me yet another facet.

    Message: 73901
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff/Moving Msgs
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 08:43:35

    Your concern that someone might move only part of a discussion in order to
    distort what someone has said is a valid one.

    However, I don't believe Ann did this.  And, further, I don't believe she
    intended to do it.  I interpreted your remarks the same way she did and felt
    she made valid replies to them.  If she did not, then the fault might be
    that you are not accurately saying what you want to say; that the message
    others are receiving is not the one you wish to send.

    Furthermore, in light of Cliff's statements, I stand by my responses of
    yesterday.

    Message: 73902
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Arrrgh!
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 08:44:06

    > But, I soon have a very important question for you $tatus
    > users. ... Bill Burkett (Hang-Person) Master @ Arms is doing a
    > job for Apollo that I think he should be given some SYSOP
    > powers. ... I will post this question in form of a [V]ote
    > shortly,

    A VOTE??!!??  Cliff, you never said anything about a vote!  What if I'm
    turned down?  Oh, the shame!  What will this do to my already fragile
    psyche?

    Why do I suddenly feel like Mikhail Gorbachev?

    Message: 73903
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ben Trumby
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 08:44:54

    > Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.

    I sure wish I could remember the lyrics to "Mack the Knife."

    Message: 73904
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Paul & Pleasure
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 08:45:22

    > Personal pleasure does not constitute a "useful purpose".

    Then, it's okay for you to clown for others, but not for the others to enjoy
    your clowning.  Is that correct?

    Message: 73905
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cubbage Imposter
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 09:50:58

    Nice try, but the REAL Scott Cubbage would have had a hang-glider accident,
    NOT a motorcycle accident!

    Message: 73906
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: In search of
    Subject: ED SHARPE
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 09:56:11

    ED SHARPE NEVER USED LOWER CASE OR APOSTROPHES !!!!  ALSO HE DIDNT HAVE A
    PERSONALITY IN THE FIRST PLACE !!!!  IM NOT FOOLED !!!
    WHOS BEHIND THIS, BRAD JOHNSON ????

    Message: 73907
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Ed Sharpe
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 10:28:54

      Well, it's not "Jeff Beck"; he never indents his paragraphs.  Maybe SysOp
    Cliff should make a [V]ote out of it, and we can all have fun.

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 73908
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 12:21:35

    Yeah.  Maybe this "much needed rain" will wash away all the smoke...
    I was curious.  You said you were not currently smoking.  Why?

    Message: 73909
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dee/last on Ann
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 13:24:48

            Dee, Ann said she was not smoking not because of health reasons, but
    in all the smoke in her home, she could not find her cigarettes.

            Dee, Ann said she was not smoking, but it was not because of health
    concerns, but instead it was because with all that thick smoke in her home,
    she could not find the cigarettes.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73910
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on cyanide
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 13:39:59

            Good Grief Paul....  Cyanide is to QUICK.  There is no time to drain
    the family's wealth going down the bankruptcy trail in paying medical bills.

            Who said you can't take it with you.  My Uncle Bob took it all with
    him, leaving his wife Edith with nothing but bills...  And for what?
    Something that could have been avoided had he thought of more then just
    himself and his high from damn cigarettes!

            Let's drop it...people like that just can't see the truth till it is
    too late.  They have been suckered by the tobacco companies with a pack of
    lies.

            Besides, let's not fight, less there be hard feelings...

                            It looks like Rain!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73911
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Mikhail Gorbachev
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 13:44:40

            Errrr, I ment Bill.... If you don't think you want to risk the
    [V]ote... Say something now?  Otherwise stand your ground.

            To give that power to someone, who could use it wisely or poorly,
    should have the membership's approval.  Don't you agree?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73912
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 17:42:41

      God help us he thought god help us all the slaves.  For
    hundreds and thousands of years we have been tapping we
    slaves tapping away from the depths of our prisons.  All of
    us all of the little guys all the slaves from the beginning
    of time tapping tapping tapping --
      A man had come into the room a man with heavy footsteps.
    The man came over to the bed and threw the covers back and
    began to prod his body.  It was the doctor.  He could
    imagine the nurse going for the doctor and saying that thing
    up there in the room that thing is always tapping its head.
    I get nervous I think it needs something.  Come and look at
    it come and try to stop its tapping.  So the doctor had come
    and now he was prodding him.  When the prodding was over the
    doctor took the tube from his throat and he had a little fit
    of strangling like he always had when they took the tube out
    to clean it.  The doctor put the tube back in its hole and
    stood quietly doing nothing.
      All during this he kept up his tapping and now that the
    doctor was quiet he tapped much harder.  It was just
    possible that the doctor might understand what he was trying
    to do.  He felt the vibrations of the doctor's footsteps
    moving over toward the dresser then coming back again.  He
    felt a cold wet thing against the stump of his left arm.
    Then he felt a sharp little sting a sharp little pain like a

    Message: 73913
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 17:52:00

    needle and he knew the doctor was injecting something into
    his arm.
      Before he began to feel its effects he knew it was some
    kind of dope.  They were trying to shut him up.  They had
    been trying all along they knew perfectly well what he was
    doing nobody with any brains could fail to know.  And he
    knew what they were doing too.  They were plotting against
    him out there in the darkness.  They had tried every way on
    earth to make him be still but he had out-fought them he had
    kept right on tapping.  So now they were doping him.  They
    were forcing him to be silent.  They didn't want to hear
    him.  They weren't interested in anything but getting him
    off their minds.  He shook his head frantically to try to
    tell them that he didn't want to be doped.  Then the needle
    was withdrawn and he knew it didn't matter whether he wanted
    it or not.
      He determined to keep on with his tapping in spite of them
    to try to strengthen his will to such a point that even as
    the drug overcame him even as he fell completely asleep from
    its effects the strength of his will would carry over into
    his sleep and he would continue the tapping just as you turn
    on a machine and it continues to operate after you have gone
    away.
      But a fog settled down over his mind a numbness took

    Message: 73914
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 17:55:28

    possession of his flesh so that it seemed that each time he
    lifted his head from the pillow he was lifting some enormous
    weight.  The weight grew heavier the tapping grew slower his
    flesh became like the flesh of a dead person his mind seemed
    to shrink and shrivel as the drowsiness swept over it.  In
    his last moment of thinking he was saying to himself they've
    won again but they can't win forever they can't forever oh
    no not forever ...

    Message: 73915
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Iraqi Joke
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 18:28:03

    Ad seen in alot of newspapers around the country...

       Used Iragi AK-47, In great shape, not fired very much, only dropped once,
    $xxx.xx obo call 555-1234.

    I thought it was pretty funny!

    -Chris

    Message: 73916
    Author: $ Don Hicks
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smoking
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 19:25:56

    The place I work won't let people who smoke work in the 'clean-rooms'
    because they say that smokers contaminate the pure air because these
    particles stick to their hair and clothes.

    Is this discrimination?

    -Don

    Message: 73917
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 19:48:16

    Yes, it is discrimination.  But the real question should be, is it a bad
    thing to do?

    Message: 73918
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thought for the day
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 19:48:44

    Hypocricy is the Vasoline of social intercourse.

    Message: 73919
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Joke
    Subject: shenanigans
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 19:54:40

    Dem bones, dem bones, dem, dry bones...

    Message: 73920
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Joke
    Subject: shillelaghs
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 20:59:14

    Dem sticks, dem sticks, dem, dead sticks...

    Message: 73921
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last few?
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 21:58:44

            Over my head?

                            clif-

    Message: 73922
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Robert A./relativism
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:03:17

    If we were to search for fundamental absolutes in the field of human beings,
    the closest thing we would find to them would probably be in basic human
    responses to simple stimuli.  Give a hungry man food, and he'll be pleased.
    Kick him, and he'll probably yell and get angry.  Even then there's a wide
    range of variability caused by learning, environment, temperament,
    individual differences and so on.  But deriving a code of behavior, ethics
    or morality for an entire community is such an incredibly complex business
    that it has to be done -- and has in fact been done -- by trial and error;
    and that always means finding what works best *relative* to the needs of
    that community.

    Should a community strongly discourage the practice of violent behavior, for
    example?  Many people might say so; but if the community is surrounded by
    warlike neighbors, it may need to put a premium on people with a fighting
    spirit, otherwise it will not survive.  Its survival will be bought at the
    cost of some internal strife.

    If we look at killing, it's fairly clear that excessive killing within a
    society will pretty quickly sap that society's energy -- not to mention its
    population.  So "thou shalt not kill" is a pretty good moral dictum relative
    to the needs of a particular community.  In war, that dictum is suspended
    with respect to members of a second, *enemy* community, because it serves
    the needs of the *first* community to defend itself against the second.

    Message: 73923
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Relativism (2/4)
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:04:17

    But if we now look at a supercommunity that subsumes the first two -- let's
    say the "war" is between the blue people and the green people in two
    provinces of some country -- then from the point of view of the larger
    community's good, such strife is a bad idea.  So the country's government
    will rightly (from its point of view) seek to suppress the war.  And true
    "morality" is very much a question of taking the broader view.

    There are certain things, such as unjustified killing and stealing, and
    other things besides, that tend to harm any community in which they occur.
    Consequently the avoidance of such behaviors is the closest we can get to a
    moral absolute.  Other notions of ethics will vary depending on the needs of
    a particular community -- on its environment, and sometimes on the way it
    has learned to cope in the past.  In a community where a particular resource
    is very scarce, wastage of that resource may be an "immoral" act, whereas in
    another community it might not matter.  In a community needing to increase
    its population for survival, "morality" demands that as much sexual energy
    as possible be channeled toward that goal.  In a community that is seriously
    overpopulated, "morality" demands something rather different.  Sexual
    morality must relate to a community's needs; but it's far from a simple
    matter, because it involves not only how many children are produced, but
    also how they are provided for, and whether sexual practices strengthen or
    weaken cohesion among the individual members of the community and subgroups
    within it.

    Message: 73924
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Relativism (3/4)
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:05:14

    Sometimes the choice of a particular rule of behavior is unimportant
    compared to the consistent practice of the rule.  Is it right or wrong for
    lawyers to advertise?  The answer is "whatever works best", but it's
    difficult to determine just what does work best.  Twenty years ago opinion
    seemed to be that it was wrong for lawyers to advertise.  Today, it's OK.
    The point here is that either rule works reasonably well, but it wouldn't
    work as well if some lawyers were debarred from advertising while others
    could use advertising to gain an unfair advantage.

    Nevertheless, all these moral and ethical issues are relative to the needs
    of some community, and even the broadest views we have are relative only to
    the needs of the human race as a whole.  Some people call themselves "pro-
    life", yet the vast majority of them are only pro-*human* life.  Is it right
    or wrong to eat beef and pork?  Relative to the human community there's
    nothing wrong with it.  From the point of view of the cow and pig community
    there might be plenty wrong with it -- as I'm sure Jeff Beck would be quick
    to point out, having done so before.  Is it wrong to exterminate insects
    because they're a pest?  The Jains of India believe it is wrong to destroy
    any life in the animal kingdom, yet they are quite a small minority.  In our
    treatment of animals we humans usually consider mostly our own needs:
    whether the animals are useful to us, what our feelings are about them, and
    whether we happen to enjoy having them around.  And no, I'm not a
    vegetarian.  My morality too is relative to the community of humans.

    Message: 73925
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Relativism (4/4)
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:06:20

    I'm not sure what to say about the comment that "pragmatism is ultimately
    sterile", because it depends what "pragmatism" means.  It isn't a dirty word
    to me; in fact, it's a very valuable word, because it describes "what works
    in practice".  And this in my opinion is how most successful communities
    have developed codes of behavior.  But I do say "communities".  It seems
    from what you said next that "pragmatism" means "whatever I can get away
    with".  And if that's what you mean, then yes, "pragmatism" in this sense is
    not a morality at all, but nothing more than blind selfishness.  I use the
    word "blind" deliberately, because this kind of "pragmatism" has tunnel
    vision limited to both the here and the now.  It ignores anything outside
    itself, and takes thought only for the present, never for the future.

    I mentioned in my post that we can use the power of thought to place
    ourselves mentally at some viewpoint other than our own.  And this is in
    fact the key to the development of a morality.  Being able to see things
    from the viewpoint of an individual other than ourselves does at least help
    us to understand why he does what he does, and may give us some clue about
    how to deal with him for the best.  And being able to see things from the
    much broader viewpoint of a community as a whole, and from a broader span of
    time than just the present, helps us to develop a truer morality.

    Message: 73926
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beatles reference
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:10:33

    I suspect the reference to the Beatles in the context of work was an
    allusion to "A Hard Day's Night":

         It's been a hard day's night,
         And I've been working like a dog...

    though it might be some other song that's slipped my memory.  It's a bit
    obscure to me as well.

    Then there was the famous Beatles concert somewhere in the North of England
    (I think) in some crummy hall, where everybody got so hot that sweat was
    dripping off the walls and ceiling and the moisture ran into the electrical
    wiring and blew all the fuses.  End of concert.  Work may be heat, but
    entropy wins in the end.

    Message: 73927
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: I'm baaaack...
    Date: 03/19/91  Time: 22:46:24

    Just for a visit.

    Michael Kielsky

    Message: 73928
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 04:48:46

    Well, first of all, there is a subtle distinction to be explicated. There is
    indeed a relativism to the morality of *general* acts; this relativism
    involves the context, the conditions and exigencies of the act.
    One should not, however, confuse a general class of acts with specific acts;
    in assigning relative morality to the act of killing, we have simply said
    that killing is not always bad under all circumstances.  But "killing" is a
    class of behavior, not a specific act.  Your relativism applies only insofar
    as it allows us to differentiate between elements relating superficially
    within a general class.

    Having said this, you appear to transform the question of the morality of
    specific acts into the question of who benefits in what manner from specific
    acts.  Aside from the problem of whether the concept of morality can
    withstand this transformation and yet retain any semblance of meaning, I am
    puzzled by an apparent inconsistency.  After concluding that the morality of
    specific acts is relative, you place an importance on the needs of
    *community* which is unwarranted within your relativistic framework.  You
    say, "All moral and ethical issues are relative to the needs of some
    community."  But this is in conflict with your fundamental tenet; that the
    morality of specific acts is relative to the *individuals* involved in those
    acts, whether directly or indirectly.  Clearly, the individual may benefit
    indefinitely long at the expense of the community.  For all your talk of
    tunnel vision, your pragmatism does not fulfill its promise, but merely
    attempts to coerce individuals using quasi-logical arguments.

    Message: 73929
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: me
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 04:50:37

    I may take a vacation soon.  So if I disappear, that's where I've gone.

    To Gordon: here are two things I am certain of:

    (1) heat is non-work.
    (2) entropy is a dubious concept.

    The first statement is unambiguous.  As for the second, entropy applies only
    to closed systems.  Ultimately, it requires that the universe be a closed
    system; by no means an established fact.

    One other interesting point.  Heat does not always flow from hot to cold.
    It is possible, theoretically, to freeze a kettle of water by exposure to a
    flame.  However, the probability of this occuring is so small as to be
    unworthy of notice.

    "Information?  Get me the number of Maxwell's demon."

    "We are sorry sir; that number is unlisted."

    Message: 73930
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/73897
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 06:07:20

     Avoiding the issue and running from the truth isn't going to make it go
    away Ann. I just wish, for your sake, and because we don't like losing
    friends, that you would recognize the jeopardy in which you are placing
    yourself (and others). The cost simply isn't worth the risk. Love ya.

    Message: 73931
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bill/pleasure
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 06:15:19

     My statement was restrictive to Ann's rebuttal to a statement that Cliff
    had made about smoking serving a useful purpose. Ann's response was that her
    enjoyment was, in and of itself, a useful purpose, implying thereby that it
    mattered little or not at all what effect the smoke was having on others.
    Based on this assumption, I stated that her personal pleasure, at the
    expense of others, could not be construed as a "useful purpose". My
    statement was not intended to be taken out of context and generalized.
     Are you attempting to compare a tragically harmful addiction to a
    performance that brings joy to literally thousands of children of all ages
    daily? (I am speaking here of clowning in general, not just my
    performances.)

    Message: 73932
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael/Ed Sharpe
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 06:17:36

    It sounded a little like something Jeff Beck would do. I could sense a
    little of his rather unique sense of humor there, too. Jeff gets my vote for
    that post. I doubt that anyone was really convinced.

    Message: 73933
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 06:20:26

     Speaking of rain, we went from Peoria all the way to east Mesa yesterday
    afternoon, practically in the blind. Between the rain coming down in
    torrents and the semis and pickups without wheel flaps throwing up clouds of
    water, it was almost impossible to see more than 50 feet or so ahead of the
    car. Talk about thrills! Phooey!

    Message: 73934
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Don.smoke
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 06:23:48

     I wouldn't call it discrimination. I would call it common sense protection
    of valuable equipment against a known destructive force.
     I wonder how long it will be before someone comes out with a study on the
    comparative life of computer equipment in the presence of smoke filled air
    as opposed to clean air.

    Message: 73935
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Bill
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 08:01:54

    He already has sysop powers being the Master at arms, so why vote? And he is
    doing a good job! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73936
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill #73904
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 08:02:49

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Very funny. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73937
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Cliff on MLK
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 08:21:51

    I guess you know that we aren't going to have the Superbowl because we don't
    have a King day?! I was so disgusted when I read that article this morning I
    could scream. But to be honest, I STILL am quite confused about this entire
    issue - again I ask ... DON'T we ALREADY have a MLK day where the government
    workers get a paid day off? All I know is my trash wasn't picked up that day
    nor was the post office open and the paper touted it was because of King??!!
    But on the other hand, did we not vote against a paid King holiday? Why do I
    keep reading in the paper that the people of this state WANT a king holiday,
    but then we vote it down??? In the words of the Great Vinnie Barbarino ....
    "I'm SOOOO confused?" Maybe you can clue me in - again as to what's going on
    here. All I know is at this time for sure ... I am NOT prejudiced yet I do
    NOT want a King day - and at this point, paid or not!!! 'Principal' is now a
    principal!!!
    Another mystery ... why do the black groups say out of one side of their
    mouth they don't care if we have a PAID King day or not - just a recognized
    day ... and out of the other side, I get the opinion that's EXACTLY wht they
    want???!!! Why do most of our politicians seem to be for a King day and most
    people seem to be against???
    If I'm not mistaken - on King day there was mass celebrations downtown,
    right? As I said, the gov. workers had the day off so, what do they want
    anyway? Blood? Apologies for being prejudiced when we are not? Beg, plead
    and grovel at the feet of the NFL and the black groups?  Maybe you have a
    clearer picture of what's going on then me. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73938
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 09:25:32

    I don't know where you live, but I assume your CITY collects your garbage.
    The Post Office is a FEDERAL agency.  The M.L.K. Day vote affected the STATE
    only.  Understand?

    I would just as soon eliminate all the holidays and distribute them evenly
    throughout the year without ANY politician's name attached to them.

    Message: 73939
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: fake Cubbage/SHARPE
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 09:31:07

    "Jeff" wasn't around back then, so it wasn't him.  I don't remember if
    Cervelli knew Scott, but Nick did.

    I wonder whether the Michael Kielsky message is authentic.

    Message: 73940
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Don Hicks
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 09:34:13

    How about companies that won't hire fat people for various reasons?

    Message: 73941
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul/Discrimination
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 10:14:38

      I would say that not letting smokers smoke in the "clean room" is *not*
    discrimination, because non-smokers are not allowed to smoke there, either.

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 73942
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Hello...
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 12:20:50

    Is there an echo on this board or what?

    Message: 73943
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael on MLK
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 13:05:55

    I live in Glendale and I think they have a MLK day, but I'm not sure. I know
    I DID NOT vote on it if they have. This is what's so confusing - I think I
    know what's going on and then I'm not sure at all and then I'm half way
    sure, etc. etc.

    Most people I talk to feel the same way as you do - distribute the holidays
    evenly etc. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 73944
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Bill...
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 13:27:08

            Miz know it all, Bill has NO SYSOP poswers at all.   He could not
    zap a post or edit a post if I were not here to do it for him.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73945
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 13:30:48

            I don't understand it myself about the MLK day.  However, I am no
    fan of the NFL and will work to NOT have the Super Bowl here in 1996 as
    well.  I don't like the way they have tried to bribe Arizonans into
    something we may not want.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73946
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Cliff/Vote
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 14:37:40

    > To give that power to someone, who could use it wisely or
    > poorly, should have the membership's approval.  Don't you
    > agree?

    As a matter of fact, I do agree.  Let the [V]ote begin!

    Message: 73947
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Ann/My Powers
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 14:38:08

    > He already has sysop powers being the Master at arms, so why
    > vote?

    As Cliff's already pointed out, at present I have no SysOp powers at all.
    Any recommendations I make regarding my duties as Master at Arms must go
    through him or Sandy for implementation.

    Cliff approached me about assuming some SysOp responsibilities so he could
    take a few days off from the BBS from time to time.  My approach would be
    exactly the same as his:  No interference with any posts unless they violate
    the [R]ules (particularly that regarding profanity here on the [M]ain BBS)
    or the law (such as the posting of credit card numbers or long distance
    codes or such).

    Message: 73948
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Pusher Paul
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 14:38:34

    > Are you attempting to compare a tragically harmful addiction to
    > a performance that brings joy to literally thousands of
    > children of all ages daily?

    No, Paul.  I'm just trying to rattle your cage and get you off Ann's back.

    Actually, yes, Paul.  It seems to me that daily exposure to clowning, which
    you would seem to favor and in which you have a great financial interest,
    might lead to a long-term need for such clowning; an addiction, if you will.
     A psychological addiction, but an addiction nonetheless.

    Admit it, Paul:  You're a pusher.  And a pusher of the worst sort.  Feeding
    on young innocents by convincing their parents to invite -- yes, invite --
    you into their homes.  You KNOW how addictive this can be, yet you continue.
     Hoping they'll come back to you next time they need a fix.

    The shame of it all!

    Message: 73949
    Author: Alpo Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 17:34:02

    It looks like Paul and Jeff aren't the only clowns on this board.

    Message: 73950
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trumbo
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 17:59:42

      ... Tapping ... five six seven years ...
      A finger came out of the darkness a finger so enormous
    that it shattered against his forehead like the crash of a
    pile driver.  It echoed inside his brain like thunder in a
    cave.  The finger began to tap ...

    .--  ....  .-  -  -..  ..  .. ..  ..  ..-  .--  .-  -.  -
    W    H     A   T  D    O     Y    O   U    W    A   N   T

      What do you want?

    Message: 73951
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: New one coming...
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 18:32:21

            Get in your favorite color (of those listed) on the poll, as I may
    tonight set up the new one to see if Bill 'does' or 'does not' get the
    Power...  Shudder!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73952
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: BIO SIG
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 18:34:55

            I would like to see a few more users take up the challenge and do
    an auto BIOgraphy.  Are you just forgetting?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 73953
    Author: $ Don Hicks
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: M. James
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 20:29:19

    You've never been in a wafer fab have you?

    -Don

    Message: 73954
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: DOUGLAS BUEDEL
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 20:56:27

         David Burkhart could tell you.  So could I for that matter.  I won't,
    of course.

    Message: 73955
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ED SHARPE
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 21:08:27

         Prosthetic foreheads CRANK!

    Message: 73956
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Question?
    Subject: SYSOPS
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 21:24:36

         Whatever became of David Bailey, "the young sysop"?

    Message: 73958
    Author: Glen Billings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Freeways
    Date: 03/20/91  Time: 23:42:27

    A little confused, first time that I have used this board or this particular
    software. Just wanted to clear up the term "FREEWAY". It is exactly what it
    says it is a Freeway (no cross traffic). Has nothing to do with no. of
    lanes. All entries and exits are made from the far right or ocasionaly far
    left lane, and should be able to exit at highway speed. Though Interstates
    are for the most part FREEWAY in design not all interstate is FREEWAY by
    definition.

    Hope that clears things up, or did I just muddy the watters :-)!

    Glen Billings

    Message: 73959
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Your 13 msgs.
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 00:45:01

    Although I will read your messages off-line, from what I could scan they
    looked very interesting.  Thanks for taking the time.

    Message: 73960
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Freeway discussion
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 00:47:44

    Cars are monsters.

    Message: 73961
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon (1 of 5)
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 01:17:01

    Gordon, the following is a partial reply to your interesting and
    informative rambling, posted in answer to the question of planet earth
    blowing into bits.

    First of all I do not know much of anything about New Age.  I do not own a
    crystal nor have I been shopping for one.

    I do feel, however, that all life in the universe is equal and related.  I
    also feel that all matter and all non-matter are related.   If this is New
    Age then I'm for it.  At least I would consider the idea a definite step
    up the evolutionary ladder.

    It seems from my observances that the human animal is in a global rut,
    stuck in the mud, so to speak.

    If planet earth up and exploded then it may only seem like an important
    event in the universe, specifically for the inhabitants.  But for how long?
    I'd guess only for an instant.

    How many universal bodies have exploded since there were universal bodies?
    How many will explode throughout eternity?  Mind boggling to say the least.

    Message: 73962
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 2 of 5
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 01:17:53

    I could say, ten trillion years down the line nobody would care but I'd be
    incorrect in the usage of that terminology because when planet earth goes
    then our time system is kaput.  There goes our year, etc.

    How much do you miss the dinosaurs?  They were here for millions of our
    years.  Would they consider it a tragedy?

    To those of us who would consider the earth blowing up a tragedy, I ask,
    what is even 100 years in eternity?  Our bodies shed in due course anyway.
    What big difference would it make no matter when it comes?

    I was having a philosophical discussion with a girl friend of mine and I
    was explaining to her some theories about the nature of life.  She blew my
    mind when she pointed out her belief that the human animal was special.

    What I meant about positive and negative charge is this:  It appears in
    the world of magnetism that there are at least several different forces at
    work in the physical world.  For scientific note we call one of them
    negative and another positive.

    Message: 73963
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 3 of 5
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 01:18:38

    In our selves there are electrical impulses at work.  The subject on neg.
    and pos. was actually a serious joke on my part.  I was thinking of the
    concept of heaven and hell when a thought struck me.  It was this:  If a
    person was negative in viewpoint all of the time it could be argued that
    his operating energy would be negative (or more likely to be discharged
    into the earth than rise upward).  The thought struck me as funny, that
    those who are negative go to hell when they die, or at least they go
    towards the center, into the bowels of the earth, and that is where the
    biblical hell exists.  That which is positive rises to the heavens.  It was
    all a joke.

    Nothing remains in the same state forever as the form is always changing.
    Negative will go to positive and positive to negative countless times.  We
    are in a constant state of transformation and I consider the human animal a
    fairly grotesque form and no longer suitable for intelligent life.

    There is nothing I want from this planet or this fleshy body.  I wouldn't
    want all the gold or all the money or sex (err, maybe sex). This body
    reminds me of a temporary holding tank which I consider rather confining.

    I desire true freedom, freedom to do what I want in the universe, not to be
    trapped like a caged animal for a period of stay.  Perhaps I'll work it out
    and then again perhaps I won't but try I will.

    Message: 73964
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 4 of 5
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 01:19:28

    Our jobs are our jails but the demands placed upon each working class
    citizen demands that we have jobs.  So we sell ourselves to the highest
    bidder and try to make the best deals so that our short but seemingly long
    stay will be as pleasant as possible.

    Unfortunately there are not enough of us succeeding as evidenced by the
    poverty and misery that surrounds.  It is a struggle although there is
    no absolute law that says it has to be that way.

    Before it will change for the better the human animal has to realize a few
    more things.  We are caught in a web of tradition and have many falsehoods
    that are accepted, without question, as fact.  They rule our lives and keep
    us in fairly dark ages.  We all are slaves to something.

    More people die each year from the adverse effects of auto emissions than
    from first or second hand plant leaf smoke.  Those who object to pollution
    should immediately unplug their freezers, other cooling devices and stop
    buying anything that has plastics involved in their manufacture.  Their
    automobile(s) should be crushed and they should try to not pass gas.

    Message: 73965
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: el last
    Date: 03/21/91  Time: 01:20:18

    Volcanoes should be capped as they spew some very poisonous fumes which
    affect the human animal adversely.  Whoever picks on a smoker should
    examine their own life more closely.

    If the planet should decide to blow into small bits then I'd like to think
    that I would say, "Far out dude."

    I enjoyed your reply and found it to be of value.  I too rambled around,
    answering several different topics from other users.  Thanks.

                                    Rod

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    You were on 45:46

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