### Apollo BBS Archive - May 5 - 7, 1990

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    What is your first name:ROD

    What is your last name:WILLIAMS

    Hello, Rod Williams
    Is your name correct:Yes

    Password:

    Password:$$$$$$$

    Caller # 147841 (13 today)
    It is now 05/07/90  16:29:24
    Last on @ 05/05/90  03:35:21
    Last message read was  (65339)
    Message range is (65149-65399)
    You have logged in 1422 times

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    $ Rod        Williams   16:29:23 (1200)
    $ Bob        Thornburg  13:48:12 (2400)
    $ Dean       Hathaway   12:24:18 (2400)
    $ Ann        Oudin      09:59:23 (1200)
    $ Roger      Mann       09:43:36 (2400)
    $ Daryl      Westfall   06:58:14 (1200)
    $ Bill       Burkett    06:34:22 (2400)
    $ Mike       McNeill    06:22:17 (2400)
    $ Paul       Savage     05:45:40 (1200)
    $ Melissa    Dee        05:04:25 (2400)
    $ Nick       Ianuzzi    02:16:58 (2400)
    $ James      Hawley     00:46:30 (2400)
    $ Gordon     Little     00:21:22 (2400)

    Main Menu command:JN

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    Message: 6431
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bob on Jim
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 09:30:20

    Pay attention!  Roger said that Jim was one of "those for whom Baptist
    brainwashing had failed"

    Message: 6432
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jim Lippard
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 13:24:36

    Jim is a failed fundamentalist, as I am. He has chosen to be an atheist.
    I am more comfortable with Jim than I am with James White. Please note
    the agnostic quality of my belief. One of the things I do take by faith
    is the dictum "Use faith sparingly, evidence may arise to show that
    faith is misplaced". I freely acknowledge the possibility that God does
    not exist --- that the idea of God is a human response to a human need.
    However, I "believe" that God does exists. Of course what I believe will
    have no effect on whether God does or does not exist.
    Since I claim the right of access to God through Jesus Christ (who may
    or may not be part of God (I tend to disbelieve that he is) I am an
    agnostic Christian.

    Message: 6433
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 21:49:34

    Somewhere at one time or another I heared a story about a guy in
    Vietnam who was in a infantry group. This Christian dude had just
    joined in the troop a few months back and was going around the
    countryside of vietnam getting shot at with the best of them..
    This Christian guy asked this one fellow who had a whole pile of
    crosses, stars, ropes, beads, all kinds of religious paraphenalia...
    from different religions, strewn about his neck and body;
    "What's with all this..?"
    To which the guy replied.." I..I-I BELEIVE!"
    "Beleive what" asked the Christian dude..
    "Everyone...you name it...out here I'm in NO POSITION to PI$$ anybody
    off.."

    Message: 6434
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/Bible
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 07:01:27

    Well, the writing of the Bible did not start at the beginning of Creation,
    so in a sense you are right.

    Message: 6435
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean/New Gods
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 07:05:05

    I would disagree with you there, creating new "gods" is quite in fashion at
    the moment. Look at the New Age movement, with all of these people claiming
    to be the "channel" for some "higher being." In fact, there is one lady in
    town who is supposed to be the channel for a god named Mena. You ought to
    see the money she charges to let people talk with "him."

    Message: 6436
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean H./Reason
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 07:21:49

    I will agree with you on that one. When Scripture and logic come into
    conflict concerning God's revelations concerning Himself, a believer must
    allow Scripture to take precedence. Making reason the yardstick for judging
    Scripture makes the creation the judge of the Creator. Reason also has a way
    of trying to cast God in a light that we can fully understand (i.e.
    re-making or fashioning God in an image of our reason's choosing.) Reason
    has caused many Christians to deny that miracles recorded in Scripture never
    really happened and the account of Jesus' birth is a myth. Reason must be
    used with caution concerning Biblical matters. If left to run rampant, it
    has a tendency to secularize(?) Christianity.

    Since (IMHO) one cannot come to a belief in God of his/her own choosing, but
    is given faith through the Holy Spirit by the reading of God's word, all of
    the rationalizations given today to try and convince a non-believer that the
    Bible is true, is for naught. If one does not believe God's word, all of the
    head-beating and rationalizations that a decision-theologist offers won't
    make a hair of difference. Even if Christ Himself came down and performed a
    miracle in front of the eyes of the likes of Rod, he would not believe. That
    is why I do not expect to "win anyone over" to my side in this discussion.
    To those who have hardened their hearts, and convinced themselves that the
    Bible is UNTRUE, the Spirit cannot make inroads.

    PS: I apologize for taking your quote out of context. Meant to say that in
    previous message.

    Message: 6437
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/6413
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 07:23:55

    Isn't SOCIETY to bear the cross for the actions of "misguided" individuals?

    Personal responsibility. What a RADICAL concept!

    Message: 6438
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/Jesus
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 07:35:24

    Re: Godhood of Jesus

    The Jews of Jesus' time believed that Christ was blaspheming when he said,
    "Before Abraham was, I AM." They even carried out what Leviticial law
    prescribed for blasphemy (stoning to death). But they were not successful.
    The Bible does not even say that a single stone cast even came into contact
    with him. But they understood that Christ was claiming the same Name that
    God revealed to Moses (I AM). The Jews realized that Christ was making
    himself out to be equal with God. The only thing they didn't understand was
    that he WAS. Even Thomas didn't believe until Christ showed himself to him
    after the resurrection. "Doubting" Thomas' reply?: "My Lord and my God!"

    Why do you not believe in the Virgin Birth, even though OT Scripture says it
    was to happen? The OT prophecy was fulfilled in the birth of Christ, as the
    Messiah had to be born of a virgin. Where do you make the decision of what
    in the Bible is true and what isn't?

    Message: 6439
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: bible truth
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 09:55:36

    I made the same decision about what is true in the Bible the same way
    you made the decision the Bible is true.

    Message: 6440
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/New Gods
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 12:28:39

      I stand corrected I guess, since I don't know much about what goes on
    among New Age folk.
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 6441
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/Reason
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 12:32:10

      I think we agree on what is involved here, even though we are on opposite
    sides. The misquote was no big deal, but thanks anyway.
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:JN

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    *=* X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board entered *=*

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    Message: 3812
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Up Yours
    Subject: HEY
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 20:22:28

    FUCK!!

    There.  That should get things going around here...

    Message: 3813
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 21:50:54

    YOU

    Message: 3814
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: continued
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 22:26:58

    BITCH!

    Message: 3815
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Last 3
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 22:40:45

            You can even read them backwards using the  and still make as
    much sense.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 3816
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Last
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:47:01

    Might even be more interesting, that way.

    Message: 3817
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question ?
    Subject: Next
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 05:08:20

    ASS!

    Message: 3818
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Melissa/last
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:32:16

    HOLE is a very small orifice that ........

    Message: 3819
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Last
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:32:47

    Hmmmm .... do I smell a story starting? Pardon the pun!

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

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    *=* Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board entered *=*

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    Message: 651
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 17:25:13

    The scene in SL&V when the girl masturbates for the camera.  Slightly
    similar to your 'female manipulation' while driving.  It was a joke.

    Message: 652
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: SCANDAL!!
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 04:40:23

         Headline from this weeks Star:  "Bart Simpson is really a woman!"

    Slow week at the celebrity gossip mill when they start picking on cartoon
    characters.

    Message: 653
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: James on sl&v
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 14:52:37

    Oh.  I thought you meant emotional manipulation and I didn't get it.
    Dopey me!

    Message: 654
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Trivia
    Subject: Where the hell is
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 20:23:27

    Zak?!  Maybe he and Jeff are both lost in the phantom zone?

    Message: 655
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 22:27:37

    He called me a couple of days ago.  I think he still doesn't have a
    modem.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

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    Message: 65340
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff on healthy
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 07:52:12

    Re: When your man stops loking at other women ... then you had better start
    worrying. That's the nature of a healthy man!.......

    What is healthy about it? I'm not being sarcastic ... just want to know what
    that means?-=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65341
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger P.B. club
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:00:09

    Oh yes. I remember the old Playboy club in L.A. - we use to go to it on
    occasion and your right .... it was the thing to do - a real status symble.
    In those days, it also was the thing for a waitress to be half attired when
    serving in the better places - some, even topless. At first, it was kind of
    exciting and new - but it didn't take long when we became weary of having
    this distraction with our meals. My comment became "I'm tired of having sex
    with meals!" This also applied to the clubs where hunks served the meals in
    bikinis too! Soon, after the newness wore off, we never went to those
    places. We'd prefer a quiet place where we could relax, talk and not have
    someone bent over our table with their T.. in our plate. My husband was the
    one that liked this the least and I think he's healthy! (this comment is in
    regard to Cliff's comment) -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65342
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on hiding
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:13:57

    Re: "Why would my husband feel that he had to hide Playboy?" .... I wish I
    knew that answer. My husband doesn't like stuff like that, so it's not
    entered my life as a problem ... but as for other men that do, I haven't a
    clue. It doesn't make any sense to me ... why would they have to hide it
    from their wife if the relationship was good? But then again, if it was
    good, why is he looking at such things on a regular basis? Why is this man
    involved in fantasy at the risk of losing his marriage - home - family?
    Seems like a big risk for so little. His wife has gotta wonder that if he
    looks as these - then he might cheat on her - wonder if he pictures one of
    those Playboy babes as he's making love to her, etc. etc. As a woman, I know
    what's in my heart so to speak re. such things. I have had two huge posters
    of ARnold in my laundry room for ages (just took them down) - they are not
    suggestive, but non the less another man - my carboard sunscreen for the car
    is a pix of a hunk in the briefest bikini - I have rented movies such as
    'Pumping Iron' - all about body builders. But I do not lust after these nor
    do I think of them when I'm with hubby - I know it and he knows it. But I do
    not profess to know what's in a man's heart re. these things. See? I would
    never hide anything like this - ever! Even if these bothered my husband,
    they'd be gone in a flash because he certainly is more important and so is
    our relationship. Perhaps you could make some sort of comment regarding this
    and I hope other men here will to. This is just one woman's opinion.
                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65343
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on hiding
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:18:08

    Then you are not one of the men that we are speaking of. Just don't be
    defensive about it - why are you feeling sorry for us? We arn't talking
    about 'US' here.
    I admit that both men and women 'look' - but we are talking about extremes.
    Re: buying cars --- men are noted for changing their cars quite often! Ha.
    You say both you and SAndy look at Playboy. Why? What is one merit of that
    magazine? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65344
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dandy Sandy
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:19:15

    Your reply to the sitting or standing situation was halarious.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65345
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on sitting
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:24:44

    Women are jealous???? Harrump! Not true. When I wear my shorts/jumpsuit - I
    do not take it off. (hope you get the picture cause I ain't gonna explain
    further or I'll end up in the Zone for sure.) I see no real merit in it
    except I don't have to disrobe!
    BTW - I am not into the 'equal rights' thing - I believe in them, but I'm no
    feminist and I do not believe Melissa is either from what I've gotten from
    her posts. I simply live a life of equality whether men like it or not. They
    only shape my life as much as I let them. That's always been the case even
    before the woman's movement started. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65346
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Our list
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:27:45

    Re: the subject matter on the board ...
    Christianity vs Athiestism
    Playboy magazine
    Toilet sitting or standing
    A few computer subjects.

    I'd say good ole Apollo was versified. Ya don't find that anywhere else.
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65347
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: In the paper
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 08:37:08

    I can't belive that this country has the gaul to call itself civilized! In
    the paper was an article about a guy they electrocuted the other day - not
    only did he spend 14 years in prison for his crime - when they went to
    electrocute him, it took three tries. Here is some of what the article
    said.....
    "Ordininarily, state executioners turn on the current to the chair just once
    to immobilize and kill the condemned who is strapped in with leather bands
    and wires to the head and one leg. But Tafero withstood two jolts - still
    visibly breathing and moving his head - before a third try, at 7:10 A.M.,
    rendered him motionless."
    "Flames and smoke rose from his head as the headset conducting the current
    to his body caught fire!"
    How can we call ourselves civilized when we let a person stay in prison for
    14 years and then execute him and execute him with such a medival
    contraption out of the dark ages??? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65348
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann on Healthy
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 12:50:04

            Ann, if you started looking at other women, would you consider that
    healthy?   I should hope not...  It is better if you look at Arnold S. or
    that pool man you once had.  Right?

    Message: 65349
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: New user
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 12:53:19

            Please welcome Apollo's newest $tatus user... Robert Durham!

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65350
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cummings/logic
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 13:16:56

    Unfortunately B is a fallacy.

    Message: 65351
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Backed up
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 18:59:42

            Apollo was backed up in full today... It also got a newer 3.5 720K
    floppy drive.  (from my AT that got an even newer 3.5 TEAC 1.44 MEG floppy)

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65352
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Logic
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 20:51:57

    Yeah, but the very "outrageous, far-out" answer you propose requires that
    element of "forever". (The crystals you suggest which are floating thru the
    universe.) By whatever name, you describe an eternal, life-creating being. I
    simply submit, with Acquinas, that what we have now is a world which is
    demonstrably, if not obviously, more complex than that which history
    demonstrates to us was extant 4000 years ago, in spite of the motion,
    action, involved since then. Is there any other explanation for motion
    becoming more complex rather than into chaos?
    John.

    Message: 65353
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann Oudin/sex
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 20:56:53

    Oh, Ann, I knew you'd be a marvelous woman! What a great outlook! Your
    husband is a lucky man! And you're a lucky wife! Wow!
            John

    Message: 65354
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: electrocution
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 21:03:01

    Ann--we are civilized, and we tried to give that guy the easiest way out we
    have devised. The fact that our mechanics are not as good as we'd like is
    simply a comment on the people we now graduate from our high schools. This
    guy had all those years to try to prove his innocence, or even to prove that
    he deserved a more painful, slow death. Neither was proved, so he was
    executed according to the laws of his state. It didn't work as well as we'd
    like, but I'm glad he can't attack my daughter, or any other kid. I think
    justice was served.
            John.

    Message: 65355
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/logic
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 21:07:28

    No, B is not a fallacy! It is simply a statement--you may argue that it is
    right or wrong, but not a fallacy! If our world is a development of
    evolution from squirming one-celled beings to people named Roger, or John or
    Clif, then, no, we are observing a development into more complex from less
    complex.  And that won't take place with out a Plan. and Planner.
            John

    Message: 65356
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Annie #65273
    Date: 05/05/90  Time: 21:27:34

    "Men and women aren't really all that different."?????
    Perhaps you haven't checked lately? How long has WHitey been gone, anyway?

    Message: 65357
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Steve Mac
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 01:57:39

    You don't believe he said it? You obviously are not well read.It was all
    through the printed media last year.
    You say one man does not speak for a whole religion, barring JC, what of all
    the monks that copied the bible. You don't believe they changed it, put it
    in their own words?

    Message: 65358
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ANN
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 04:37:36

         Have you heard about those donut shops where the waitresses are
    topless?  Almost makes me want to be a cop.... IF you know what I mean.  And
    I think you do!
         Something to think about..... sometimes.....

    Message: 65359
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on looking
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 08:10:32

    But I do look at other women - I told you, I'm a people watcher. But I also
    see their beauty, clothes, mannerisms, etc. I also do not look at men just
    for some sexual purpose either.
    Are you saying that you look at women for purely a sexual reason and no
    other? Why can't both male and female admire the opposite sex without sex
    being involved at all? Just curious. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65360
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Welcome Robert
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 08:12:09

    Tell us all about yourself. Are you willing to jump right in on the debates
    here? We always like new blood. New ideas. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65361
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John on electrocutio
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 08:25:54

    I can't agree that we gave that guy the easiest way out we have devised! The
    electric chair is not that. Beheadment would be better in a public square!
    Of course, now we have lethal injection, but why didn't they use it on him?
    An over dose of heroin would be better and better yet, leave it in the cell
    and let him do it to himself. In my opinion, using the electric chair,
    hanging, guns to preform executions brings us to the low if not lower of the
    murderer himself!
    Also - why 14 years before they pulled the switch? If a person is tried and
    accused of such a crime, then let him be executed within a reasonable length
    of time after, lets say a repeal trial and that's it! No more than a month
    after the repeal trial. For one thing, why should the tax payers have to
    room and board him for 14 year if he's legally been accused of murder? Why
    not do it swiftly and humanely. We treat Rottweiller vicious dogs with more
    humane treatment.
    I admt to you that I do not believe in a death penality, period, but life in
    prison without parole. Just my opinion. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65362
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on men & ...
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 08:37:21

    OK Pauley, except for the obvious, where are men and women so different?
    Please answer that is clear and precise terms.
    AND ..... lets elaborate on the difference of the sexual organs! Except for
    the obvious 'shapes' - how much real difference is there? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65363
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter/last
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 08:40:47

    Topless doughnut shops??? Now I know how they make those little holes!
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. Of course, it would be better to have male bottomless doughnut shops.
    The holes would be rounder. *Heh

    Message: 65364
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Electric Chairs
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 15:01:51

    I agree.  Death by gas or lethal injection sure seems more "humane" and the
    cost is much less.  I also agree that if someone is supposed to be put to
    death, DO IT!  This 14 years stuff is absurd!

    Message: 65365
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: "Hunane"
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 16:17:04

            Now if only we could get the "bad guys" to be HUMANE to their
    victims.  I swear, you bleeding hearts worry more about criminals then you
    do of the victims.  Over in a land not so far away, there is this ruler who
    puts his enemies to death by castrating them with a pair of shears, then he
    has their heads bashed in with a sledge hammer.   I would like to adopt this
    method over here in some cases.

            If people were not afraid of the death penalty, crimes would be more
    hideous.  If you are going to kill one and get life, might as well as kill
    100 or more.... and still get life. ha ha ha ha ha ha

            Bleeding hearts have RUINED the justice system.... as there is no
    more true justice, it's a joke!

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65366
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 17:18:13

    Re:  "How can we call ourselves civilized when we let a person stay in
    prison for
    14 years and then execute him and execute him with such a medival
    contraption out of the dark ages???"

    Well, what in the world did he do?  Surely it wasn't just a parking ticket?
    If he was guilty of rape and murder etc. he deserved what he got.

    Message: 65367
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Death penalty
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 20:46:23

    I agree that 14 years on death row is ridiculous--but the teary eyed knee
    jerk liberals have pushed us to this extreme. He could have been executed
    much faster, but is allowed appeal afterr appeal to other courts, before hsi
    time runs out, then is finally executed. I think beheading in the public
    square might be of beneficial effect on the populace, but kinda cruel on the
    beheadee. Of course, under Henry VIII they had a system called drawing and
    quartering while alive.  That was REALLY uncomfortable.
            John

    Message: 65368
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 21:26:10

    Yeah, the bleeding heart liberals always get teary eyed when any sort
    of semi-violent death is imposed on these murderers.
    Maybe that image of the burning helmet might stick in a few minds.
    Some jacka$$ killer out there just might, just might think twice about
    killing in orde4r to get away with theft.
    WHat makes me laugh on this one, is Ann wants me to beleive that
    electrocution is something out of the dark ages. Well, Ann, they didn't
    know how to manage electricity in the "Dark Ages"...and instead, they
    used your preferred method...death by beahedding.
    That was the dark ages. What a contradiction.
    Well, if the image is too violent for you..why did you read it in the
    first place?
    Me, I'd rather see these axe murderers have justice served in an equally
    violent fashion as they dished it out..serrated kitchen knives,
    pitch forks and camping appliances and all. If the victim was shot 7 times
    at point blank range in the stomach and chest with a .45 auto, then the
    death sentence, if so awarded, should be carried out in the same fashion..
    7 rounds into the stomach and chest with the murder weapon if at all
    possible.
    That's the ticket.

    Message: 65369
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Sentence terms
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 21:41:43

    Consider this much....if (as it has happened) a truly innocent man is
    sentenced to death wrongly (i.e. he did not perpetrate
    the crime) and we go with this INSTANT JUSTICE everyone so eagerly
    wants,...what happens to our rights then?
    You guys are so blindly in favor of this that you haven't for a minute
    figured out what the possible rammifications are.
    Certainly, a vast majority of convicts are there because they belong there..
    but removing the appeals process is somewhat ignorant of our rights.
    There is a price to freedom and such..we have found that in order to reach
    a method of justice, that it must hold true equally for everyone...and not
    just for the not so guilty...but for the beyond a reasonable doubt guilty
    as well. You can't arbitrate who is and who isn't worthy of 14 years of
    appeals. It is a frustration we must keep in order to serve the tennets
    of truth and equal justice. Destroy that process, in any quantity, and,
    like everything else (gun laws and the rest), the politicians will take
    that inch given and run 10 miles. We'll see the absolute and total
    corruption and destruction of a once great system. It's bad enough
    now....wait till you see what happens when rights get stripped!
    Oh, it'll look real nice to start with...quick executions and all...
    just wait till something happens to you and you go before an unforgiving
    court system...and are quickly silenced before you have a chance to refute
    the "EVIDENCE AGAINST YOU"....read 1984 again.....it looks like you all
    desperately need to.
            -Mike

    Message: 65370
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Speaking of
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 21:57:00

    Today, 1700 people died world wide....960 of them were in one fashion
    murdered....of the 260 suspects rounded up in the first two months
    here on... 7 innocent men out of 24 correctly identified will be
    either harassed for months on end or unjustly served punishment for
    a crime they did not commit.

    Message: 65371
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Hans/Monks
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 22:14:45

      No, I don't believe the copiests all changed the Bible, putting it in
    their own words.  If they had, then why would all of the thousands of
    manuscripts be as nearly as identical as they are?

                           =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 65372
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 23:49:18

      The problem I referred to earlier about some messages not showing up was
    all my own fault. Years ago I had set my profile to ignore messages on
    RELIGION, and did not remember it. Now that I found myself sending and
    expecting to read messages under that heading, they were not showing up.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65373
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Shooting
    Date: 05/06/90  Time: 23:51:30

      That shootout GT really got me interested in shooting again. I went out
    Saturday and Sunday, and have had to crank up my reloading press again. I
    also made a slightly different version of the Shootout GT video tonight,
    which I will try to bring tomorrow night. That GT at Cliff's is still on,
    right?
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65374
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:02:56

      In any explanation of the origin of life you either have to say that
    something existed forever (God, or my crystals) or you have to say that it
    was created. In that case something had to create it (if you are going to
    continue following the logic which got you to this point) so you haven't
    gained on the real explanation at all.
      My facetious explanation could be made to account for increasing
    complexity just as easily as any other could, or has. Without the necessary
    knowledge to develop and test real theories on these matters, we can choose
    to accept someone else's theory on faith, or settle for not having any
    explanation.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65375
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Talking of Hustler..
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:27:24

    In Friday's paper I see that Dwaine Tinsley, the creator of Hustler's
    "Chester the Molester", was sentenced to six years' imprisonment for having
    sex with a girl from the time she was 11.  Isn't it nice to see a magazine
    staffed with thoroughgoing professionals who know their own specialties from
    the inside out?

    (Now, how do you do a "satiric sneer" in ASCII characters?)

    Message: 65376
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/1 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:28:51

    It took two jolts of electricity to kill John Spenkelink in the same chair
    in 1979.  His face too was covered by a mask, but the skin on his leg
    crackled and burst open.  This however was not a malfunction, simply the
    normal result of placing a human body between electrodes with a potential
    difference of two thousand volts.  The mask of course is there so that we
    can pretend the man's face showed calm fortitude and dignity throughout,
    except for a proper expression of remorse for his sins.

    In the old days, much the same crackling effect was produced with bundles of
    burning sticks, except that death took much longer and was more painful, and
    there was no mask so that the crowd could enjoy watching as well as
    listening to the man scream.  There was a generally festive air in the town
    square, and vendors did a brisk trade in the medieval equivalent of hot dogs
    and Coca-Cola.

    A similar spirit pervaded the crowd gathered outside the prison when
    Theodore Robert Bundy was exterminated in the same chair in January 1989.
    There were choruses of "Burn, Bundy, burn!", and a Jacksonville radio DJ
    urged the public to turn off their home appliances to make sure there was
    plenty of juice available.

    Message: 65377
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/2 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:30:11

    Probably Jessie Tafero didn't feel much after the first jolt of electricity,
    since the passage of a heavy electric current through the brain has a
    knockout effect that is used in electroconvulsive "therapy".  Not being an
    expert, though, I wouldn't guarantee it.  I would certainly dispute the
    statement that breathing and nods of the head were caused by a postmortem
    "nervous system reaction" similar to that of a chicken running around the
    barnyard after its head has been chopped off.  Breathing is controlled by
    centers within the brain, so part at least of the brain stem was not yet
    dead.

    We can be grateful that we live in a country where First Amendment freedoms
    make it possible for the press to give us accurate and detailed reports on
    many subjects, including executions.  When murderers were hanged in England,
    the entire proceedings were shrouded in secrecy.  Prison governors were
    given official guidelines on how to report an execution, e.g., "it was
    carried out expeditiously and without a hitch".  They were explicitly
    forbidden to say whether any time elapsed between the opening of the trap
    and the prisoner being certified dead.  Disclosure of such information was
    contrary to the Official Secrets Act of 1911, punishable by up to two years'
    imprisonment.

    Message: 65378
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/3 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:31:40

    Nevertheless, we do know that when hanging is done properly, the neck
    vertebrae are torn apart instantly, the prisoner involuntarily defecates,
    and then it is all over.  An open casket funeral would be unwise, because
    the body is left with the neck elongated.  If the drop is too short or the
    rope improperly placed, slow strangulation may result, which happened to one
    Mrs. Thompson in 1923.  If the drop is too long, the head may be pulled off,
    which has also happened.

    Authorities bungled three attempts to hang a man named John Lee in 1889
    before giving up; whether out of mercy or frustration is not recorded.  His
    sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.  I suppose he was lucky.

    It takes an unusual kind of fortitude to be an executioner.  I see that the
    state of Washington is keeping the identity of its hangman secret, so we
    cannot judge what kind of man he is.  The executioner of Mrs. Thompson
    obviously lacked this fortitude.  He committed suicide shortly afterward.

    A macabre sense of humor helps to ward off the reality of death.  Albert
    Pierrepoint, a British hangman, used to run a pub called "Help the Poor
    Struggler".  His assistant, Allenby, ran another pub called "The Rope and
    Anchor".

    Message: 65379
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/4 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:33:26

    Many executions, of course, are far less revolting than the murders for
    which some people are executed.  And more often than not the murder victim
    had done nothing to deserve his death; neither did his death serve any
    purpose in protecting the public.  It is hardly surprising that people are
    angry enough at murderers to feel like pulling the switch themselves.  A
    loved one of a murder victim has a special right to feel angry, and if he
    were to go out and personally put a bullet through the head of the murderer,
    I would label it at least a natural and human act, if not necessarily a
    humane one.  Nevertheless, the rest of us are not involved in quite such an
    intensely personal way, and due process of law gives us time to think about
    not only venting our feelings, but doing what is best for the future.

    In olden times the revenge motive was king.  Flogging, burning, boiling in
    oil and disemboweling were popular punishments, all done in public.  Today
    we have progressed to the understanding that barbarism begets barbarism, so
    executions are much quicker and less painful and are done in private.  There
    is still credence given to the idea that execution deters murder; also we
    can breathe easier when certain dangerous animals are permanently
    neutralized.  Since we argue that execution needs to be carried out, we take
    advantage of this need by doing it with traditional methods that give us the
    best of both worlds: they are relatively humane (when not bungled), but
    still gruesome enough to satisfy that revenge motive.  It's as if a man were
    already being punished by locking him in the pillory and we use that as an
    excuse to pelt him with rotten tomatoes as well.

    Message: 65380
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/5 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:38:43

    Our attitude toward execution is betrayed by the fact that we call it
    capital "punishment".  The aim of punishment is ostensibly to motivate the
    wrongdoer toward better choices in the future.  Clearly this definition does
    not apply to capital punishment, since the wrongdoer will not be making any
    choices in the future.  We must therefore fall back on the other reason for
    punishment, which is the gratification people get out of inflicting it.

    I submit that this is not quite good enough.  Of course we all *feel* like
    personally strangling some murderers with our own hands.  Feelings are
    separate from behavior, however, and certain behavior, while instinctive,
    should not be encouraged.  Self-defense is a different matter, but at other
    times when one person is angry at another the cause of peaceful coexistence
    is not often served by bopping him on the nose.  That way of handling
    conflict can escalate into full-scale war.  There are better, more
    constructive, and more grown-up methods.  Revenge may be sweet, but we
    should not reinforce the notion that when somebody has done something to
    hurt us, the best thing to do is to hurt them as much as possible in return.

    The most important reason of all, therefore, for humane treatment of
    criminals is not a bleeding-heart liberal sympathy with a killer, but to
    avoid fostering the killer attitude among the rest of us.  There is more
    than enough killer instinct in the world already.  We do not need more.

    Message: 65381
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/6 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 00:39:52

    We must take responsibility for what we choose to do with criminals.  It is
    evading responsibility to say that criminals must pay the penalty according
    to law, because the law is not God.  People made that law, and if it is
    wrong, then it is the responsibility of people to change it.

    If after due deliberation we conclude that the world would be safer or
    better off without some particular killer in it, then a more fitting
    attitude to take is one of sadness.  Sadness that it could not have worked
    out better.  In keeping with that emotion, the least gruesome method of
    extermination is the most suitable.  We have perfectly adequate lethal
    injections.  Why don't we use them?

    Message: 65382
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Chester
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 05:12:05

    I saw a program on channel 8 with an interview of him.  I always thought
    something like this might turn up someday.

    Message: 65383
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie on difference
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 05:54:05

     Well, to begin with dear, women are more emotional than men. By that, I
    mean that their emotions are more finely tuned, not that they are a bunch of
    airheads, so don't get me wrong, OK? Women, generally speaking, tend to
    think with their hearts, and that usually results in less logical reasoning.
     Also generally speaking, women tend to be less muscularly structured. With
    the obvious exception of those women (?) who are into "body building"
    (yuck!), the feminine gender is softer, with less musculare definition than
    men. Thank God for the difference!
     As to the difference in sexual organs, maybe you need to get to a grade
    school sex education class! (If you really don't know, that is.) I have
    never heard of a man having a baby! If there ever was, I'm sure glad it
    wasn't me! Vive' la difference!

    Message: 65384
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: GT tonight
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 09:29:48

            The Shoot-Out Movie is still on for tonight.  Yes sir!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65385
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: gordon/execution
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 09:53:01

    We join the barbarous murderer in a macbre dance of death, inextricably
    linked to the act of killing. We drag ourselves into the slime with the
    devil himself, while the victim remains still as mute testimony to our
    inability to live civilized and peaceful lives.

    Message: 65386
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff beck
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 09:57:06

    I talked to Jeff the other day. He asked me to let you all know he isn't
    mad or anything, just busy with some other stuff.

    Message: 65387
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on bleeding
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:04:05

    Why do you label us 'Bleeding hearts'? That simply is not so. Any human
    being deserves better than the electric chair and 14 years in prison waiting
    to die! Why should the state (us) be more terrible than the murderer
    himself? More cruel?
    How can you say I'm a bleeding heart when I do not believe in the death
    penality, but in life in prison without parole? What could be much worse for
    a murderer?
    I will agree that the bleeding hearts have ruined the system for the most
    part. They've ruined a lot of things. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65388
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on death
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:07:34

    I believe that if we are to have the death penality, that beheadment is one
    of the better ways - probably just after lethal injection.
    I still say the electric chair is madaeval. It might not be ancient, but it
    goes along with the Rack and hot irons to the eyes! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65389
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on appeals
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:10:16

    You have a point there and I would not want to do away with the appeals
    thing - BUT - 14 years in prison and then they put him to death? Isn't this
    a tad over board? How many appeals do you think a person should get? Two or
    more? I feel that if a murderer is convicted twice, that ought to be enough
    and then he is executed within the month after the second conviction. What's
    the matter with that? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65390
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon/6 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:15:46

    Powerful posts! I agree 100%. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65391
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on sexes
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:29:23

    Wrong Pauley! Women are not more emotional than men! They have been program
    to be so as men have been programed to not be so! In fact, I have read where
    it hurts men to not let their emotions out! Sets them up for heart attacks,
    etc.
    Re: women thinking with their hearts ... true, but so do most men and won't
    admit it! I've seen my husband get every bit as emotional as I can get and
    it doesn't make him less of a man. In fact, where it comes to emotions and
    emotional situations in our life, I am the stronger one for the most part!
    Now don't go saying we are unique because we arn't.
    Re: the difference in sexual organs - of course I know the difference and I
    also say 'VIVA LA DIFFERENCE!' - but really Pauley, what difference is there
    except for outward appearences? Our society has brain washed us into
    thinking one way - but how true is it? I think we proved here that women can
    be turned on with pix of nudity also - something most men don't want to
    believe. It has also been proved we like to look too! Men believe that women
    make love to be loved and men make love for the sex part. Not true also! A
    woman enjoys sex as well as men - have lust - have fantasy's - and it's not
    just for the cuddling or love at all. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But are
    men so different? Don't they also want to be cuddled, loved, hear sweet
    nothings in their ear as women do? Are men just sexual creatures that lust
    after a women's body? I think not. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65392
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Pool fences
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 10:37:13

    The law went into effect today. It states you must have a self latching
    gate/fence around any new pools. 5 foot high or a self closing, self
    latching doors leading from the home to the pool!
    Hmmmm .... makes me wonder if these same people that would turn their back
    on the kids and let them drown in an un-fenced - un self latching gate -
    would be more vigilant and see that the gate is closed or the pool cover is
    on the pool????? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65393
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 12:42:12

      I have a 300 baud modem for a Commodore 64 that I am not using. I wonder
    if Zak would be interested in borrowing it?
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 65394
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck/Roger
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 13:23:10

            Thanks for that bit of Info....

                    clif-

    Message: 65395
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on B.H.
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 13:41:17

            Ann, I consider you a 'bleeding heart' because not once have I heard
    you talk about the criminals victim, only of the poor criminal.
            Life in prison for murder, with no parole....  So if I kill John Doe
    I will get life in prison with no parole.....   So I might as well kill John
    Doe and all the people I can... and maybe even a dozen cops while I am at it
    because some 'bleeding heart' made it law that no matter what I did, the
    max would be 'life in prison with no parole'.

            And people wonder why we have 'prison over-crowding'.

            Ann, do you remember Greenwalt (sp)?  A convicted murderer...that
    excaped.   He went on a murder spree, killing almost everyone he came in
    contact with.  If they are in prison, there is always the chance they may
    excape!  Humans make mistakes..there is ALWAYS a chance.  However, once a
    criminal is put to death, he can not hurt or kill anyone.  There is more
    room in the prison with his absence.  We the public no longer have to feed
    him with tax money.

                            clif-

    Message: 65396
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 13:54:34

    Re:  "a Jacksonville radio DJ urged the public to turn off their home
    appliances to make sure there was plenty of juice available."

    I like a man with a sense of humor!

    Message: 65397
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Execution/6 of 6
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 14:01:10

    A very interesting series Gordon.  Thanks for taking the time.

    Message: 65398
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 14:05:04

    Re:  "beheadment is one of the better ways - probably just after lethal
    injection."

    Why, you blood thirsty lady!  Why wouldn't just the lethal injection be
    enough?

    Message: 65399
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 14:11:19

    Re:  "Women are not more emotional than men!"

    Yes they are.  And it starts at a very young age.  Most little girls get mad
    and cry; most little boys get mad and fight.  There is a definite difference
    in the physical, mental, and psychological patterns between male and female.
     It is so obvious how can you not see it?  Are you saying the differences
    are all environmental?

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:G

    Goodbye, Rod Williams
    You were on 12:53

    Please hang up now
    yZE?3lKvI(N5LVI5:

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