### Apollo BBS Archive - September 12, 1990

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 19:52:52

            It confuses me when you tell me "what Christians say" or "What
    Christians think" when it is something not Christian at all. A meteor
    striking the earth and destroying all life is still the work of nature. In
    other words, nature is not limited to this earth, it encompasses all
    material existence.
            Now, one good valid description of God is that since he is the
    creator of all, and since the plan of evolution must therefore be his plan,
    then everything that happens, including the fatal cataclysm finale, must be
    part of the nature He made. Okay?

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:02:01

            I've read Dana's Two Years Before the Mast.  It has been several
    years, I confess, and I don't really remember enough of it to relate it to
    this discussion. (I keep confusing it with Moby Dick>)
            I have to admit, though, that when I go up in the mountains or out
    to the beach and take a deep breath I sometimes choke on the fumes, the
    smoke, or the salt air or the scent of dead fish, but I usually want to
    express appreciation for the work of the creator; in general, I think He did
    a good job.
            You have a good point in the attitude that "people are no damn good"
    but that must pertain to the faults and flaws in people: in essence, they
    are pretty neat, but their own free will allows them to screw up. I submit
    that babies are great until they grow up.
            Do you really see no difference between the "free will", the
    'choice", the intelligence of man, and that of animal? Are you arguing that
    the development of hands and fingers caused the "intelligence" in the
    so-called human?  Wow!                   --John C.--
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I never said that hands and feet caused intelligence but they did allow us
     2:the capability of building wheels and spears and clubs and one thing led to
     3:another and we kept improving on them.
     4:
     5:Far as I can tell all species of animal communicate with their own kind
     6:quite well.  Perhaps the other have seen what we have done and feel no
     7:survival need to develop intricate hands.  I know that we'd be a lot better
     8:off if we hadn't.
     9:
    10:And in order for man to be able to communicate with his own kind then the
    11:man must know fluently many different languages.  I wonder if all Bob Whites
    12:speak the same language all over the globe.
    13:
    14:If I am relaying to you that man is no good then I must also include myself
    15:in that list.  I am not separating anything.

    Mail to John Cummings
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:10:28

    So God makes earthquakes, floods, tornados, hurricanes and the like,
    including world destruction from time to time as part of his 'everyday
    plan.'

    Everything, in other words is God's doing.  Even if The Great Deceiver
    caused misery, pain and death then this too has to ultimately come through
    or be approved by God before it can be done.  Then God is DIRECTLY
    responsible for all facets of life rather it be good or terrible.  Hmmm.

    This God character is some mightly busy dude.  But notice that I did not
    say, 'intelligent' because only an idiot could create a jumble such as this.
    A big one at that.

    All life in the universe is equal AND related.  Everything is joined by
    atomic structure whether it be a loose network or solid mass.  The
    electrical impulses throughout this universe has evidentially found a
    system, after who knows how many eons, of thought.  It is like building
    blocks and ergo it learns and we, all life everywhere, is a part of it.

    However in this stage of life, in this area of our universe, in these bodies
    of bone and flesh we are none too smart.  Fact is were are still stupid.
    But I suspect that the energy that is in the surrounding area, around the
    earth, planets and sun and among the Milky Way that life that may exist
    without the body of bone and such just may be more intelligent and if there
    is something that has feelings, such as electrical impulses with thought
    then that would be what is trying to help us.  But I doubt if the lowly
    human, with perhaps few exceptions, can tune in to the frequency while still
    a captive of flesh.

    I would call this connected universal energy, The Universal Mind.  However I
    really do not know if it exists.  I am only making a theory.

    But consider that nothing in the universe has ever died but only changed
    into something else.  Our bodies are atomic structures that hopefully go
    back into the ground to help nourish the next generation.  But the
    electrical impulses that we each contain would most probably form in the
    atmosphere and move around.  It would be a totally different kind of being
    than the human animal and in fact if this happened to human then it would
    also happen to cats, dogs, plants, etc.  It would happen to all that contain
    some sort of electrical impulses.

    Where does one come from at birth?

    Look, I worked extremely hard today AND this evening.  This afternoon the
    baking sun did some cooking on me and now I feel almost done.  I am not
    going to edit what I have written because my mind is beyond Mars by this
    time.  I am really tired.  Take care,   Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69457
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/Bayer
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 04:47:52

    Sure they're being monopolistic.  You don't have to lower your prices to
    drive competitors from the market in order to be monopolistic.  In fact, if
    they lowered their price to match Western Family's price, they'd probably
    lose some of their monopolistic market share.  Remember -- you get what you
    pay for .

    Message: 69459
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: a riddle
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 04:59:37

    Which weighs more: a pound of gold or a pound of feathers?

    Careful -- it's a trick-trick question.

    Message: 69460
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: wrench
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 05:17:15

    I once lost a wrench outside a spacecraft.  It took up an elliptical orbit
    around the ship as an artificial satellite.  Later, I burnt a piece of
    sirloin on an overheated atomic pile, so I threw it overboard, too.
    Instead of leaving the rocket, it too became an artificial satellite, which
    produced a brief eclipse of the sun every eleven minutes and four seconds
    (the sun was pretty small at my distance from it).  I calculated until
    "evening" the components of its trajectory, as well as the orbital
    perturbation caused by the lost wrench.  I figured out that for the next six
    million years the sirloin, rotating about the ship in a circular path, would
    lead the wrench, then catch up to it from behind and pass it again.
    Exhausted by these calculations, I went to bed.  During the night I had the
    feeling someone was shaking me by the shoulder.  I opened my eyes and
    someone was standing over the bed; his face was strangely familiar, or
    rather, his eyebrows were.  He claimed to be a bible salesman, or a Senator;
    depending on which timeline you accepted.  "I'm alone on this rocket," I
    said, "and have been for two years, en route from Earth to the constellation
    Aries.  Therefore you are a dream and nothing more."   "Hey man," he said,
    "why aren't my whites whiter?  Why aren't my brights brighter?  I bought the
    special soap in the small box with the handle, and now I'm frustrated."
    "Fnord!" I replied, and I rolled over and went back to sleep.

    Message: 69461
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cola Extract
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 05:51:23

    Cola extract is not Coke syrup.  Cola extract is not coca extract, and
    neither is Coke syrup.  Coke syrup uses both cola extract (extract from the
    African kola nut) and coca extract (from spent coca leaves) in its syrup,
    along with other stuff. The Cola extract was no doubt sweet because they
    added a lot of sugar to it to make it palatable.  Cola extract is very
    bitter.  Coke contains only trace amounts of cola and coca extracts; not
    enough to add any flavor or stimulation.  The old syrup (pre-1903) contained
    perhaps 2.6 milligrams of cocaine per ounce.  If a line of uncut cocaine
    contains 50 milligrams, then you would have had to consume about 20 ounces
    of pure syrup in those days to get the equivalent dose of cocaine.  These
    days, if the syrup contains 2% of that amount of cocaine, one ounce of syrup
    contains .052 milligrams of cocaine.  You would today, then, need to consume
    961.5 ounces of pure syrup to get a dose of cocaine equivalent to a 50 mg
    line of pure cocaine. Coca-Cola, however, is not pure syrup. I do not know
    the proportion of syrup to water that you get in a can of Coke or a cup at
    the fountain, but even if it was a 50-50 mixture, you would need to drink
    1923 ounces of Coke, or about 43 fourty-four ounce Super-Big Gulps filled to
    the lid with no ice, in order to get the equivalent dose of a 50 mg line of
    pure cocaine. Actually, however, there is not nearly this much cocaine in
    Coca-Cola.  The syrup does not contain 2% of the amount of cocaine that the
    old syrup had, nor does it contain 2% cocaine (if an ounce of syrup was 2%
    cocaine, it would contain 1/50th of an ounce of cocaine, which it certainly
    does not.) No, the coca extract may contain 2% cocaine, but since only a
    trace amount of extract is used, the amount of cocaine in the syrup is nil.

    Message: 69462
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 06:38:53

    Calm down fellow - I simply meant that our souls are God - not that we are
    God per se. The souls also have free will! I am not the first person to
    believe we are gods in that vain.
    I still think it's a sort of cop out to say "but although it is our goal to
    live Christlike lives, we are never going to succeed in living a life
    exactly like Christ's"! I think we can be just like Him in every way and
    that was His purpose to show us that! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69463
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl again
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 06:44:51

    Your - "When Christ died, it was to take our sins away from us, something we
    could not do on our own"! So this statement means that all people before
    Christ died went to hell??? I also believe that we do take our sins away all
    on our own if we so wish. The old addage - "God helps them that help
    themselves" is a good one.
    Didn't Jesus speak of obeying the laws (10 commandments) and added one of
    His own? I thought it was quite clear we are to obey them??!! The Jews are
    still obeying them and do not believe in Jesus as a Savior - are they doomed
    to hell? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69464
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger #69436
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 06:46:11

    Good questions - statements there Roger. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69465
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on voting
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 06:53:55

    Your "Being a Libertarian is a WASTE of time as I found out"!
    You don't think you wasted your time voting for those dudes - any of them?
    Just the same old stuff will be ruling us - nothing new and exciting. And
    yes, I voted in case you think I didn't. But I only put a vote where I
    wanted it - did not vote for the lessor of two evils!!!
    The Repulsive really cut Mecham down for losing in this morning's paper and
    I had to laugh because Mecham did get a big proportion of the votes - way
    above the other's. He was at least second, but the paper was treating him
    like the worse loser of all time! I know Whitey voted for him even though he
    wasn't on the ticket - W. is a registered Democrat. He just voted for the
    one that was sure to lose. Ah - what strange games we play!! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69466
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/riddle
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 06:58:11

    Well, if the pound of feathers is on an ostrich, then it would weigh more
    than the gold. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69467
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger / God
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:16:32

    Roger: "In fact, my good fellow, where does it say in the Bible (although
    the Bible is no authority in this matter) that God is infinitely greater
    than we are?"

    Simple. As I'm running out the door to make the bus, I can give you one off
    the top of my head. Try Job chapters 38-40.2 and 40.6-14. And while we're at
    it, how do you conclude that the Bible is no authority in this discussion?
    If I'm not mistaken, we were discussing God of the Bible. How do you plot to
    come to a conclusion if you're going to toss out the evidence?

    Message: 69468
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger / Christlike
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:22:25

    Roger: "What a copout. If you don't like one aspect of Christ's life..."

    Roger, you're not even trying to read to understand, my words. Your
    prejudice is blinding you. We can live a life like Christ, but we cannot BE
    Christ. That is the aspect of Christ's life that we cannot duplicate. I
    never said anywhere that we should pick and choose Christ's attributes, that
    was your own conclusion based upon your own bias. Roger, if you wish to
    delude yourself into expecting Christians to become the Son of God
    themselves, then you're fooling yourself.

    Message: 69469
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff / Revco & Coke
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:23:43

    No, Jeff, I have actually seen the product on the shelf with my very own
    eyes. Give Revco a call (it's been a while, is Revco still in business?) and
    ask them yourself. If not Revco, then try Super X or any of the other drug
    stores.

    Message: 69470
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Jeff / Dr. P
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:25:29

    Re: 23 ingredients to create the inimitable taste of Dr. Pepper.

    They could have saved a lot of time and hassle and just used prunes for the
    same taste-effect.

    Message: 69471
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / Bible
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:29:23

    If I insinuated that 'everything we need to know [is] all in the [H]oly
    [B]ible,' then forgive me. Everything that we need to know ABOUT GOD is in
    the Bible. (Although if you were GOING to toss out your collection, the best
    book you could retain would be the Bible.)

    Message: 69472
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff / Riddle
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:31:01

    Depends, what measure are you using to weigh the gold?

    Message: 69473
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff / Coca-Cola
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:32:34

    The bottle I saw was "coca-cola syrup" (lower case denoting that they were
    not using the CC trademark).

    Message: 69474
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:34:05

    I decided to take the time to download your message and reply to it at
    greater length. It follows. I'll reply to your last message later this
    evening. As for my level of coolness - I'm cool as a cucumber.

    Message: 69476
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:36:12

    Ann: "I believe we are God also - as much as Christ was and that we can
          preform miracles including walking on water if we had the faith -
          perhaps the faith in God or faith in general."

    Ann, what you are suggesting is nothing new. Satan Himself used the same
    deception in causing Adam and Eve to sin [Ge 3.1-7, especially v. 5]. You
    claim that we are all 'god.' So how can you, at the same time say we need to
    have faith IN God? Faith comes from God. If, as you claim, we are 'god,'
    And yet we do not have this faith, then we will never have it and are thus
    pretty pathetic and useless 'gods.'

    Ann: "I belive that what we call our soul is part of God. I BELIEVE
          what Jesus said in the Bible that we can do what He can do/has done!"

    "The coming of this rebellious one is the work of Satan, who uses all
     types of misleading miracles, miraculous signs, and wonderful proofs,
     and every kind of wrongdoing which decieves those who are perishing,
     because they refused to love the truth and be saved." [2Th 2.9-10, NET]
    Ann, we must be careful to discern by whose power we can do such things.
    They can not be done of our own power, but only because of Yahweh God
    working through us, and not because we decieve ourselves into thinking
    that it is because we are 'god.'

    Ann: "I beleive that He is our example and we are to pattern our life
          after Him and what he taught and if we do, then we will be sinless
          just like He was."

    But Ann, the Law that Christ fulfilled [for us] has existed long before
    Christ ever came along, and yet it never saved anyone. It is only due to
    the merits of Christ that those who believe in Him are sinless and
    acceptable
    in God's sight. "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those
    who are under the Law, so that every mouth may become silent and the whole
    world may stand guilty before God. Therefore, not ONE PERSON will be
    justified [declared righteous] before god by doing what the Law says,
    because
    the Law teaches us to recognize sin." [Ro 3.19-20, NET]

    Ann: "There is no so called temptation that He went through and over came
          that we couldn't do the same."

    Yes, but only through faith in Christ can we overcome. And even when we do
    stumble in our walk, He is always there to help us when we fall. He tells
    us as he told Paul, "My grace is enough for you. For My power is at its
    best when you are weak." [2Co 12.9, NET]

    Ann: "I always felt it a big fat cop out to say 'oh well, I'm only human,
          therefore I will sin, but through Christ I am saved' etc. etc."

    Ann, you are misunderstanding the Christian life altogether. Freedom in
    Christ is not a license to sin. "Therefore what shall we say? Shall we say,
    'Let's go on sinning so that God may be more gracious to us?' Certainly not!
    We died to sin. How can we [then] live in it any longer?" [Ro 6.1-2, NET]

    Ann: "The Ten Commandments and the one that Jesus added are rules for us
          to follow. Whether one is a Christian, Agnostic or Athiest, if they
         are followed, the world is a better place."

    How can an atheist follow the Ten Commandments? For the Ten Commandments
    say,
    "You shall have no other gods before me," "You shall not make for yourself
    an idol in the form of anything... You shall not bow down to them or worship
    to them," "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God..." How can
    an atheist live by these Commandments? Or an agnostic for that matter?

    Ann: "In fact, the one Jesus added is the only one we need because all the
          others will fall into place if that one is followed."

    Christ did not add a Commandment, He merely summed up the Commandments in
    three sentences [Mk 12.29-31]. The first sentence was "Listen, Israel, the
    Lord our God, the Lord is One." By this we can see that only God is God,
    and since there can be only one God, then we are not 'god.' Again, the
    atheist or agnostic is not going to agree to this, which Christ describes as
    "most important" [v. 29]. Neither will he follow the next one, which is
    "Then
    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all
    your
    mind, and with all your strength" [v.30]. And if these two are disregarded,
    then the third one, "Love your neighbor as yourself," simply won't happen.

    Ann: "I also believe that it is important we do see the human side of Him.
          Religions seem to dwell only on the God part and ignore the other
    side."

    Christ was not always human. But He has always been God.

    Ann: "You will have to admit that if He didn't have that human side, then
          His reason for being here would be worthless. He lived on this earth
          approx. 33 years and He must have had human thoughts and feelings
          along the way."

    Of course He did.

    Ann: "They don't have to be categorized as sinful you know - maybe He was
          able to over come them on the spot before they turned to a so called
          sin?!"

    It's not a matter of "maybe..." - it's a fact. "He never sinned nor was
    found
    to be deceitful when He spoke" [1Pe 2.22]. "For we do not have a High Priest
    who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way
    just as we are - [yet He remained] without sin" [Hb 4.15].

    Ann: "I don't profes to know but I have thought about it often as I think
          the writer of T.L.T.O.C. did. It is easy to read the Bible and see
          the God Jesus - but not the human Jesus. We must fill in the best we
    can."

    It is easy to read the Bible and see the man Jesus as well as the Son of God
    [Mk 14.34-36, Jn 11.33-39, 12.27, 19.30 are but just a few]. As for filling
    in, I'm sorry, Ann, but "filling in" what you feel is missing from Scripture
    is only going to draw you further away from the Living God of the Bible.
    If you wish to follow Jesus, you need to rely on what God has revealed to us
    in Scripture, for there is no other means for which we can come to know Him.
    You have to either believe Christ or reject Him. Riding the fence offends
    God,
    and He would rather you reject Him completely than accept Him 'lukewarmly'
    [Rv 3.15-16 (the Greek word translated as 'spit' in most English versions of
    the Bible is literally 'vomit,' which shows the severity of being "neither
    cold nor hot" [v. 15])].

    Sorry about the one-word lines. Apparently I misjudged the word wrap in
    composing those files. Will reply to the others later.

    Message: 69482
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/abstraction
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:48:06

    I had a wonderful thought yesterday, but I forgot it after attending a
    class in abstract syntax notation. There are levels of abstraction also. I
    remember the thought now. In order to talk about anything, we need a
    meta-language to discuss it. The pile of bricks we call a set, is still a
    pile of bricks whether or not we are able to abstract the meaning of a pile
    of bricks. However, it is a human activity to talk about the pile of bricks.
    So, we invent abstractions to be able to talk about the pile of bricks (how
    many, how large, etc.) Then we engage in another discussion about the
    abstractions we are inventing to talk about a pile of bricks, etc.

    Message: 69483
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Steiger
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:50:46

    I was really disappointed in Steiger in this primary. His television ad was
    extremely poor as it showed him to be a buffoon near the end of the ad. I
    think the people of Arizona want a serious governor, not a clown. And
    although I admire Steiger for his independence and libertarian tendencies,
    he is just not serious enough for a governorship. Koory did better than I
    thought he would. Mecham is dead.

    Message: 69484
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: daryl/authority
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 07:59:04

    My knowledge of Bible history, esp. from my readings of Tillich indicate
    that the NT is not even close to be a first-hand representation of JC. The
    most authoritative religious books are those written by Paul. The rest is
    history written to support one point of view or another.

    Message: 69485
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: daryl/christlike
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 08:00:38

    that is not what i understood you to say. My understanding was that you
    could not life your life as Christ lived his. I didn't say anything about
    being Christ. That's Mike Middleton's point, not mine.

    Message: 69486
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cliff/noisy lines
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 12:26:13

    Sometimes when I call I get a noisy line. I usually hang up and try again.
    The weird thing is that I always get a non-noisy line the second time. Do
    you have any idea why this should be, or am I just extraordinarily lucky ?

    Message: 69487
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Noisy Lines
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 13:28:43

            Don't feel alone Roger....  I also get a noisy line at times and it
    always seems better the second time around.  All calls seem to go though a
    switching station, and if you get a noisy switch..... Bzzzzzzz, try again.
            There are other users who over the years have had (or have) this
    problem.   After we have rain, I generally get the most feedback on this for
    about two weeks after.   Noise sometimes can generate an  for abort or
    even worse, a  for goodbye.....   All we can do is hope they will someday
    fix the lines.
            They are doing a lot of digging on Bell Road... sometimes we even
    LOSE the line for a bit.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 69488
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 15:06:02

    Gee, I thought a pound was a pound.
    I must be stUPid.

    Message: 69489
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Noisy Lines!
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 15:09:39

    Yes, it seems that way. I was wondering if your line had special
    conditioning. In other words, do you pay more for your computer line than
    for your regular phone line ?

    Message: 69490
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: God
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 17:00:54

    I must be God because when I would go to Cliff's store he would say
    God are you here again.

    Message: 69491
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: NEA
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 19:45:16

            I haven't been around for a couple of days, so maybe this has
    already been hashed around enough, but I'll ask anyway: does anyone have a
    good supporting argument for the money spent by the National Endowment for
    the Arts to buy the chocolate for the nude dancer who smears it on her bod
    to "express her art"?  Question 2: when is she going on tour so we can see
    some of our national artists here in Phoenix?
            Also, did anyone ever argue the environmentalist point on not
    killing dolphins?
            And now that we're spending a billion per month to keep the troops
    in Saudi Arabia, do you think maybe we should build a few more nuclear
    plants? France gets 70% of its energy from nuclear. What say? --John C--

    Message: 69492
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger / Tillich
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:15:19

        And what extra-Biblical data are you using as a yardstick to determine
    what is or what is an accurate representation of Jesus?
        You can have Tillich. I'll stick with Luther. "The Holy Scripture is
    God's Word, written and, so to speak, lettered and put into the form of
    letters (gebuchstabet und in Buchstaben gebildet), just as Christ, the
    eternal Word of God, is clothed in humanity. And men regard and treat the
    written Word of God in this world just as they do Christ. It is a worm and
    no book compared with other books; for the honor people accord other
    writings of men by studying, reading, pondering, keeping and using them they
    do not accord Scripture. If it is treated well, it lies there in neglect.
    Others tear it to pieces, scourge and crucify it, ad subject it to all
    manner of torture until they stretch it sufficiently to apply to their
    heresy, meaning, and whim... It is a good sign, therefore, if a man has the
    precious gift of loving and liking Scripture, of gladly reading it, of
    highly esteeming and treasuring it,. Such a man God, in turn, will surely
    honor, because he possesses the true seal of the called and chosen saints,
    and he belongs among the apostles and the other saints."

    Message: 69493
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger / Christlike
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:18:36

        Well, let's look at it this way: Christ lived a perfectly sinless life
    and fulfilled the Law to the letter. That is how Christ lived His life on
    earth every day of His life. Can we match that?
        Or can we TRY to live our lives as Christ did, while at the same time
    recognizing our own human condition when we stumble and fail to miss the
    mark, and trusting in God to see our penitent heart and forgive us so that
    we can move on?

    Message: 69494
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ralph / 69490
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:20:06

    And I must have been the Lord as a child, because whenever I did something
    wrong, my dad would always say, "Jesus Christ, what have you done now?"

    Message: 69495
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Speaking of Luther
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:23:03

    I'm currently delving into "The Bondage of the Will." Has anyone here read
    it?

    Message: 69497
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Daryl/syrup
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:54:12

    I think you are mistaken.  How could they sell Coca-Cola syrup as coca-cola
    syrup, if it was the same substance, without violating Coke's legal rights?
    You can't get around trademark laws by selling Coca-Cola as "coca-cola."
    And if it was the same substance, why bother using lower case?

    Message: 69498
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/meta-language
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 20:59:55

    "The pile of bricks is still a pile of bricks whether or not we are able to
    abstract the meaning of a pile of bricks."

    Doesn't that beg the question?  The words "pile" and "bricks" are themselves
    definitions of abstract concepts.  If we didn't have the words, we would
    still sensibly perceive various objects, but the objects themselves are not
    "piles" or "bricks" until we define the concepts.  This is a problem which
    transcends the words and deals with the meanings of the words.  That is, the
    problem remains whether we use the word English word "pile" or any foreign
    equivalent.

    Message: 69499
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: riddle answer
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:08:44

    When gold and feathers are measured using pounds rather than metric units,
    gold is measured by troy pounds (12 ounces) and feathers by avoirdupois
    pounds (16 ounces).

    Here's another riddle: If I were in Alaska at a longitude above Prince of
    Wales island (midway between the lower U.S. and Alaska off the west coast
    of Canada), to which compass direction would my compass point?

    Message: 69500
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: understanding nature
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:09:57

    It is enough for me that Einstein's or Newton's equations represent,
    classify and order observable phenomena and as a consequence we are prepared
    to make predictive generalizations which can be tested empirically.  It is
    enough for me that Euclidean or Riemannian geometry can be adapted usefully
    to certain circumstances.  All of this metaphysical squabbling over the
    nature of gravity and space seems as useless and counterproductive as
    the arguments of medieval theologians as to how many angels could fit on
    the head of a pin.  It is a waste of time and energy to burden physical
    theories with the onus of *explanation*.  The duty of physical hypotheses
    is to predict consequences conforming to experimental evidence.  The history
    of physics shows that the descriptive part of physical theories develops
    by the proper and autonomous Fnord! methods of observation, induction, and
    experiment; the explanatory part has come along and attached itself to
    this like a parasite.  What will be lasting and fruitful in the work of
    these men is not their interpretations of their descriptive work, but that
    descriptive work itself.  In a thousand years the assumptions attached to
    them concerning the realities hiding underneath sensible appearances will
    be as quaint and outmoded as Fnord! the ancient's concepts of the celestial
    spheres and the entities which propelled them are today.  The irony lies in
    the arrogance of the successive generations; they willingly accept the
    empirical work of their predecessors while simultaneously pooh-poohing their
    explanations, but see their own explanations as ontologically correct, or at
    least somewhat closer to the truth.

    Message: 69501
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JB
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:26:49

    North

    Message: 69502
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: War!
    Subject: CLIFF!
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:28:18

    Ok.  Why is it that my Spanish dictionary disapeared around the same time as
    I was allowed on the Twilight Zone Sig?  Bring it back on so that I can do
    my homework!

    Message: 69503
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger on BBS line
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:38:57

            I pay a LOT more for the BBS line then I do for the house line.
    The reason mainly is the BBS line is a Zone 'A' number so people all over
    the Valley can call it free.   However....no matter how clean my line tests
    from the station, if you call that station from a noisy line or via a bad
    switching station... all is lost!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 69504
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Dee on Spanish dic
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:44:01

            I have not the foggiest idea as to what happened to you Spanish
    dictionary?   What Twilight Zone Sig?  Do you mean the Phantom Zone?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 69505
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Governor?
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 21:52:33

            Shortly I think I will hold a ote on the Democrat verses the
    Republican candidate for Governor of Arizona.  It's hard to get excited (at
    least for me) over the choice we have.  I KNOW I dislike Goddard, and I am
    not too keen on that Republican (Symington sp?) fellow.   This is his first
    time for public office.. he either will be real good...or real bad.  If
    anyone has any solid info on this person... PLEASE post it as I am
    interested.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 69506
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Bayer
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:34:33

    Then perhaps they should raise their prices even higher in order to get rid
    of more competition.

    Say, doesn't Bayer own those other companies also?

    What corporation owns Bayer?  Who are we owned by these days?

    Message: 69507
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/bible
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:42:24

    I did it the other way, I kept the library and tossed the bible.  Well
    that's not quite true, I did add some of my own drawings and passages here
    and there.  Now it's a fun bible but I even changed the name.  Now it's:

                    THE WHOLLY BABEL

    It even looks better now.

    Sorry, but I can't reveal the other specific changes because this post would
    be zapped and for good reason.
                                            Rod

    Message: 69508
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Kola
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:43:52

    Thanks for the interesting and informative posts.  I could only handle 12
    Big Gulps and now I feel quite sick.  Perhaps if I injected it, hmmmm.

    Message: 69509
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Satan/God
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:47:19

    Satan thought He was God, eh?  What did God do, spank his little fanny or
    put Him in His room for the afternoon?

    Just curious but I guess the bible doesn't explain that because it must be
    one of the things that we don't need to know.  It's good that the bible is a
    "need to know" book.  I have one entitled, "How Things Work".  Perhaps we
    could get together and combine the two and come out with one hell of a book.

    Message: 69510
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Compass
    Date: 09/12/90  Time: 23:53:51

    I figured out the first riddle but Daryl asked the question first.

    Wouldn't the compass be pointing north although magnetic north would be
    south of you?

    Message: 69511
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/Dolphins
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 00:01:18

    We should use Bob's Dolphin Spray in all of the oceans of the world.
    That'll get rid of those little pests.  And while we're at it I think that
    we should take all of the remaining big game and charge a buck a shot.  You
    know, like a shooting gallery.

    But, you know, we could eliminate all of the above but we'll never get rid
    of the cockroach.  At least not as long as there is a purpose of sorts that
    they seems good at.

    We have some lovely devices that will get rid of humans.  I would think that
    keeping the nuclear devices out of the hands of third world countries would
    be next to impossible in the coming 20-30 years.  Perhaps then.

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