### Apollo BBS Archive - August 19 - 26, 1990

    Main Menu command:V

    Cliff, seeing's how we're discussing topics with so much import these days,
    howzabout a vote?  If you post it, please do so anonymously; wouldn't want
    Mr. Beck to think he's being persecuted.

    Keeping in mind the crisis in the Persian Gulf region, apparent weakness in
    the national economy, and the upcoming state and local elections, please
    answer the following fundamental question:

    Who killed Laura Palmer?

    [A]      Her father.
    [B]      That nutty psychiatrist.
    [C]      The girl who likes all that "dreamy" jazz.
    [D]      The guy who beats up his wife with a sock.
    [E]      $Jeff Beck.
    [F]      None of the above.

    How do you vote [A-F] or [CR] to abort:E$

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 1    [B] 0    [C] 0    [D] 1    [E] 9    [F] 4

    Main Menu command:P

    *=* Post Office entered *=*

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:09:09

            Rod, I have to admit your msgs are interesting, at least. Try this:
    if you see no need for justice, could I start with LOVE? Better yet, let me
    start with whatever feeling you have toward your kids. (My own was
    especially strong when a daughter reached 4, crawled up in my lap, and
    claimed to love me.)
            Now, if one child steals from another, do you try to mediate and
    make the stealer give back what was stolen? Why? Do you explain to kids that
    there is something WRONG in stealing?
            If someone not in the family does or says something which hurts your
    child, do you explain that the action was WRONG, and you expect better from
    the child?
            Lastly, if your child were to take another's toy and destroy it, do
    you teach your child a.) to hope not to get caught, or b.)to own up to the
    crime and recompense the victim as much as possible?
            If b.), then do you call it justice?       John C.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:John, I will make a few comments concerning your post to me then I will
     2:answer more in detail off line.  I haven't been on for a week as I've been
     3:shit kicking busy.
     4:
     5:I have eight children, six girls and two boys.  My eldest daughter,
     6:Christian Angelica was married last June and recently gave birth to her
     7:first child (at home & is nursing).  She lived with her boyfriend for about
     8:six months before deciding to 'tie the knot'.
     9:
    10:Now my next eldest daughter Eve, who by man's standards, turned eighteen
    11:several months ago, is living with her boyfriend.  I just returned from
    12:Price Club where I bought them a micro-wave for their use.
    13:
    14:All of us realize that the concept of time is just that, a man made idea and
    15:just because the sun is on the other side of this planet and it is dark
    16:outside does not mean that it is bedtime.
    17:
    18:I am an iconoclast to the hilt.
    19:
    20:I realize that I have not answered your points but will compose something
    21:soon and get back.
    22:
    23:Take care,                  Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 68791
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 68781
    Date: 08/19/90  Time: 21:36:31

    I know that --- the comma was ambiguous.

    Message: 68792
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/centrifugal for
    Date: 08/19/90  Time: 21:40:58

    ce. Now that we have banished centrifugal force, I would like you to
    participate in the following mind experiment. I have a string that is
    10 feet long. I attach a ball to the end of the string securely. I swing
    the ball in a circle with me at the center. Consider the string. It has
    tension. What are the forces acting on the string ?

    If the string had only one force, it would move, however, it doesn't
    move. So, it must have two forces shown graphically here:

      F1<------------------->F2

    And F1 and F2 must be the same. If I exert F1, where does F2 come from ?

    Message: 68793
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Glendale Star
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 00:04:18

    Has anyone picked up a copy of this newspaper?
    If so, please tell me all about it.
    A rather interesting development has arisen.

    Message: 68794
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/experiment
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 03:12:31

    Well...perhaps it would help to look at it another way.
    Neglecting gravity, the only force acting on the ball is the tension of the
    string.  Similarly, the only force acting on you is the tension of the
    string.  The rock is accelerating.  You are accelerating.  The forces acting
    to create the tension in the string are the forces which act to alter the
    inertia of the rock and you.  Your muscles act on the rock to overcome its
    inertia, causing it to accelerate.  The rock, by Newton's third law,
    "exerts" an equal and opposite force on you.  The medium through which the
    forces are transmitted is the string.  The forces are equal in magnitude but
    opposite in direction, therefore the string does not move (well, it may
    stretch, but it experiences (in the sense in which you mean) an
    affine transformation, not a pure translation.)
    Centrifugal force is not the force acting on you, but a fictitious force
    acting on the rock to balance your centripetal force.  As far as the real
    force acting on you, it, along with the centripetal force, dissapears as
    soon as the string is cut, and so the rock is free to continue along is
    inertial vector, tangent to the centripetal force.

    Make sense to you?

    Message: 68795
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 03:22:19

    You see now, you understand, that what may once have been for you a
    legitimate hypothesis concerning the observable facts of the world, has now
    in your mind assumed the status of irrefutable dogma.  You say that the
    industrial free market will not permit the creation and maintainence of
    monopolies or near monopolies; but you yourself admit that the industrial
    free market nowhere exists. Your proposition, then, concerns the behavior
    of non-existent entities, and therefore can be dismissed as meaningless and
    lacking factual content.
    Your use of the word "maintain" allows you to claim that no matter how long
    a monopoly or near monopoly exists (even decades or generations), it will
    someday be brought down by the free market.  Thus, your proposition is not
    disprovable by the facts of experience, and therefore can have nothing to do
    with the facts of experience.  Your statement is metaphysical.

    Message: 68796
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/an experiment
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 03:58:12

    OK, now here's one from me.

    Newton's first law states that a body remains at rest, or if already in
    motion, remains in uniform motion with constant speed in a straight line,
    unless it is acted upon by an unbalanced external force.

    But consider: everything upon the Earth is moving in an arc, and therefore
    is accelerated, because the Earth is moving in an arc, and is itself
    accelerated.  Considering that even a body floating in space would be the
    subject of some gravitational force, however minute, we might propose that
    everything is under some acceleration, in which case, first, there is no
    such thing as being at rest, and second, there is no such thing as uniform
    motion.  There is also no such thing as motion in a straight line.
    Since inertia is defined as that which causes these tendencies, and because
    these tendencies do not anywhere exist, inertia does not exist.

    Perhaps mere linguistic sophistry, but perhaps you'd like to clear it up?

    Message: 68797
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 05:27:31

     Gee, Ann, I was goin to respond to your last post, but now I forgot what it
    was you said.
     Oh well, you know what they say. The mind is always the second thing to go.
    I forget what it was that goes first.

    Message: 68798
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 05:30:26

     I believe that the Iraqi army officers were executed because they were
    involved in an assassination plot against Hussein.
     I have also heard that Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait and at the Saudi border are
    abandoning their posts by the hundreds. Probably because the survival
    instinct is stronger than their taste for real war.

    Message: 68799
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Falcon parts
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 06:46:07

    Sandi, Here'a the address of a mail order place that specializes in Ford
    Falcons:
               Northwest Classic Falcons, Inc
               1964 N.W. Pettygrove  Dept 64
               Portland, Oregon
               97209
                        Ph (503)-241-9454  ext 64

    Hemmings Motor News, available on major book store news racks, has pages of
    ads from people supplying vintage and collectible Ford parts.

    If you'll remember, I suggested you contact the local Falcon Club when you
    brought the matter up a few months ago.

         I will look up a contact address and post it to you privately.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 68800
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/experiment
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 06:59:00

    I'm not satisfied that Newton's third law applies here.

    Message: 68801
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max on old folks
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 09:04:47

    I really feel for you Max  - know pretty much what you are going through -
    although my personal case with my mother is not nearly as bad as your 98
    year old is. Mother did not have senility at least and that is hard to cope
    with - even when the person has only a slight case of it. You see your loved
    one start to not even know you or their past. I could never work around
    those people - old age homes etc. I think it takes a certain person to work
    in them and I'm not that person. I've been in a few and have never been more
    depressed in my life. Re: my mother - when I was 17 years old and six months
    pregnant with my first child, mother come down with Rhumatoid ARthritis -
    not a fatal disease but within a week she turned into a bedridden, helpless,
    deformed cripple that I had to take care of. At first it wasn't too bad -
    but then the baby came. Mother wasn't the best of patients either - would
    think nothing of interfering into our lives. The disease itself is very
    painful - I have it now, but not nearly as bad as she. This made her cranky,
    sometimes outright mean and nasty too. But what I hated the most was her
    change of mental outlook. Before my eyes she became NOT my mother anymore ,
    whom I loved and cherished, but a nasty soul with hatred for the disease and
    those around her. When she died, it was from a bleeding ulcer that came
    about because she took so many aspirin over a period of 8 years. At that
    time, there was no other medication. Cortezone (sp?) didn't come out until a
    couple years before she died and her body was too frail by then to take it.
    She was one of the 'good ones'! It could have been so much worse.

                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68802
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 09:07:58

    I always knew it - you've got alzimer's disease! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68803
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Free Modem
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 12:07:44

      I have two 300 baud commodore modems to give away. If you know someone
    interested let me know or call LISTER'S STARSHIP BBS 731-9538. I also have
    term and BBS programs you can have for a blank disk.
          Red Dwarf

    Message: 68804
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: soldiers
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 13:11:43

    I heard that last week a whole bunch of Iraqi soldiers came across the
    border with tanks and surrendered...

    Message: 68805
    Author: James Allison
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Tropical Fish
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 14:18:25

                         Captain Nemo's
               Tropical Fish and Aquarium Service

    Sword Tails                               $  .50 each
    Black Mollies                             $  .50 each
    24 carat Gold Mollies                     $  .50 each
    Mickey Mouse Platties                     $  .50 each
    Fancy Tail Guppies - asst. colors         $  .50 each
    Beautiful Turquise Dwarf Gouramis         $ 1.00 each

    11 inch Oscar - Only one left             $ 20.00

    We are currently in the process of starting a monthly
    newsletter dealing with freshwater tropical fish.  If
    you are interested in getting a free copy or two sent
    to you, or if you are interested in writing articals,
    or want to advertise, give us a call at 971-0814.  Or
    write to:
                        Captain Nemo's
                        3628 E. Willow
                        Phoenix, AZ.
                                 85032

    Message: 68806
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/68800
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 17:44:05

    Certainly Newton's third law applies here.  You act on the ball through the
    string.  The ball must act on you equally and oppositely through the string.
    Because these forces are at opposite ends of the string, equal in magnitude
    but opposite in direction, the string does not move.  Take a look at this
    diagram, and if it helps, substitute for the string a rigid rod of such
    negligible mass compared with the ball, that it can be neglected.

                    ^                                                   *
                    : counter-                                          *
                    : clockwise  (T=Ft*R)                               *
    Fr              : rotation                                       Ft v     Fr
    <***** O ---------------------------------------------------------- Q *****>
           ^ Ft                        R (distance from O to Q)
           *
           *
           *
    You are at O.  The ball is at Q.  The length of the rod is R.  There are
    two force components acting on Q; the radial (centripetal) force Fr, and the
    tangential force Ft.  These forces are exerted by the rod on the ball,
    and consequently, the ball must exert equal and opposite forces on the rod.
    The first pair are shown being exerted by you at O.  The second pair are
    shown at Q.  The Fr pair easily balance. The Ft pair, because they are equal
    opposite and seperated by distance, constitute a clockwise couple that for
    balance requires a counterclockwise couple applied at O.  (The torque T).

    Message: 68807
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Roger/same
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 17:48:45

    As long as we're trying to explain things in light of the banishment of
    centrifugal force, what makes a centrifuge work?  What makes the suspended
    particles migrate outward?
    Also, I still don't know what makes the Earth bulge.  It must be a similar
    effect.  But what's the mechanism?
    Also, if my explaination of the ball and string doesn't suit you, give some
    specific objections.  It may not be right, but vague comments to the effect
    of "I don't think so," don't enlighten me.

    Message: 68808
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Physics
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 19:22:48

    An object traveling in a circle is really travelling, at every point along
    the circle, in a direction that is a tangent to the point at which the
    circle is.  This means that it wants to *increase* the diameter of the
    circle by leaving the scribed circumference, but some force is changing its
    angular momentum such that the radius doesn't increase.  This gives the
    *effect* of an outward pull (because it balances the force which changes the
    angular momentum to keep the object travelling in a circle).

    Message: 68810
    Author: $ Pat Stoddard
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Iraqi military
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 22:47:48

    Reports from local papers and the AP, Reuters, BBC, etc. say that Saddam
    executed a hunderd or so of his army officers for opposing the invasion.  He
    also reportedly executed a bunch early last week for being involved in an
    assassination plot.  Many Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait have defected to Saudi
    Arabia.  At least 3 Iraqi air force pilots flew their Mirage fighter-bombers
    to Saudi air bases and defected.  Iraqis are reportedly selling Kuwaitis in
    Kuwait city weapons and (in some cases) tanks for the possible uprising that
    Kuwaitis may try.  From what I have heard and read, a sizable number of
    Iraqi soldiers do not want to be in Kuwait and are against the whole
    invasion/occupation of Kuwait.

    As Michael Kielsky said (and I think I may have mentioned it off of the main
    board), our client/ally, Israel, with at least $4 billion in support form
    the US yearly, may be pressured by the US to do some form of pre-emptive
    raid, or (if there are enough agents inside Iraq) the Mossad (Israeli
    intelligence service) should be pressured to form "health-alteration
    committees".  Let's start with altering Saddam's health, permanently.

    -Pat

    Message: 68811
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog/68808
    Date: 08/20/90  Time: 23:55:56

    "An object traveling in a circle is really travelling, at every point along
    the circle, in a direction that is tangent to the point at which the circle
    is." No it isn't.  If it were, then it would not travel in a circle, since
    at no point, according to this, would it follow the path of the circle, but
    instead would travel tangentially to the radius.  In fact, the object is not
    traveling at a tangent at every point, it simply has as one of two
    components of its motion at every point, a component that is tangential to
    the radius of the circle.  The other component is a radially inward
    component, the centripetal force.  Together, the two components of motion
    cause the object to travel, at every point along the circle, in a direction
    along the circumference of that circle.  This is the resultant of the two
    vectors.
    "...some force is changing its angular momentum so that the radius doesn't
    increase."  No it isn't.  Angular momentum is mr^2omega, where m is the mass
    r is the radius and omega is angular velocity.  The mass is constant, the
    radius is constant (being a circle) and angular velocity is constant.
    The force (torque) simply changes translational motion into rotational.
    There is no force which balances the centripetal force.  Centripetal force
    is an unbalanced force which acts on the satellite.  The satellite in turn
    exerts an unbalanced force, equal in magnitude but opposite in direction, on
    the axis of circular motion.  The motion is circular because the resultant
    of the centripetal and inertial vectors of motion satisfies the equation of
    a circle.  The components of motion, being perpendicular, do not balance
    one another; they compliment one another.

    Message: 68812
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Lead guitar?
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:40:51

    Lead guitar for sale, huh?  Traditional guitars were made of wood, and I
    *have* heard of steel guitars.  But a LEAD guitar?  How would you even lift
    the thing?

    Message: 68813
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Roger/AIDS
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:41:48

    Good suggestion of yours that the kid ought to stop having sex with women he
    suspects may have AIDS.  Hookers and junkies aside, though, how is he going
    to tell?

    One thing, if AIDS spreads so much among the population that men in general
    start avoiding women they *think* might have it, then the current mania for
    skinny women will soon be a thing of the past.

    Message: 68814
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Saddam's ear
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:42:36

    $600,000 bounty for Saddam's right ear?  Get serious!  If somebody does
    that, all he'll do is get REALLY mad!  Let's get down to business.  How much
    for his whole head?

    Message: 68815
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Logs vs. Loggers
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:44:42

    I think I'd have to vote for the (few remaining) primeval forests against
    the loggers.  I know that logging means jobs, but those jobs are only going
    to be there as long as the forests are.  It's the real old growth we're
    trying to protect here, and we only have about 5% of it left.  Not very
    much.

    The point is, if you let the cutting go on, there will come a time when
    there's nothing left to cut anyway (talking about the old forests now, not
    the "renewable resource" ones), and THEN large numbers of these loggers will
    be out of a job anyway.  By not biting the bullet now, we're only childishly
    putting off the inevitable.  We have a choice between a little hardship now,
    with a few forests left, and the same hardship later, with no forests left.

    What really annoys me about this conservation stuff, though, is that
    everybody is talking about save this and save that -- save the whales, save
    the rain forests, save the oil, clean the air, preserve endangered species;
    yet nobody is seriously addressing the REAL problem -- which is too many
    bloody PEOPLE on the earth.  China, India, Africa -- wall-to-wall people,
    and half of them starving.  New York City, Los Angeles, Miami -- wall-to-
    wall people, and many of them going mad and killing one another.  These
    Third World countries *have* made some strides in reducing population growth
    (note: reducing population *growth*, not reducing *population*), in recent
    years, but it seems as if people have to be dying of starvation before they
    will even try to do anything.  Are we all crazy or what?

    Yet there are people talking growth, growth, growth all over the place, and
    business is the major culprit here.  There are "experts" arguing that the
    U.S. could be outranked economically in time by other countries with large
    populations becoming more developed; and then they console themselves with
    the idea that people always want to immigrate to the U.S. anyway, so we will
    remain a "vital" country because we too will have lots of lovely growth from
    immigration.  Are they stark raving bonkers?  Where are we going to put all
    these people?  Granted we have more space here per person than countries
    like India, but I for one would like to keep it that way.  And what are we
    going to do for resources to feed them, clothe them, and supply them with
    energy to heat their homes, gas for their cars, metals and other minerals
    for their personal possessions?  Of course, there are eco-nuts saying "we
    can't afford to continue living the way we have, using up the world's
    resources", and we'll have to revert to a "simpler" lifestyle.  Can we call
    that progress?

    If the world's population were reduced to a few million, they could cut all
    the trees and pollute all the air they wanted to, and it wouldn't make a
    damn bit of difference because nature would have time to restore it.  But we
    have to get serious about squashing this mania for "growth" and start
    thinking instead in terms of "steady state".  If all couples who wanted kids
    had no more than two, the earth's population would shrink.  If they
    had only one, we could halve the population each generation until a
    reasonable level was reached.  But who is pushing for this sane option?

    Message: 68817
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Nursery rhyme
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:50:46

         There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.
         She had SO many children...  'cause she didn't know what to do.

    This was a public service message, brought to you courtesy of Planned
    Parenthood Association.

    Message: 68818
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Elderly
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 01:52:09

    Speaking of old women (deft segue to next topic), our neighbors have some
    friends, a couple, where the wife suffers from Alzheimer's.  We've seen her
    over there a couple of times.  She doesn't look all that old, maybe sixty.
    The first time I saw her she seemed perfectly ordinary at first, except that
    she was extremely quiet; in fact, I hardly heard her say a thing except when
    spoken to.  After a while I realized that she wasn't quite "with it".  But
    apart from being slightly confused at times, she is perfectly pleasant and
    totally sweet and inoffensive.

    From reading about Alzheimer's (or "Old-Timer's" disease, as somebody aptly
    called it), I've seen plenty about loss of memory and confusion, and
    embarrassing side-effects like incontinence, but very little about violence.
    Now does this come in the later stages, or do the effects vary?  I'm
    wondering if Mad Max could have seen a sample of patients weighted towards
    those who are unmanageable at home (i.e. the violent ones).

    Some old people have always been known to be cranky and cantankerous, and
    frequently paranoid, and it's only recently we've isolated a significant
    cause for this behavior.  (Not the only one, of course.  Some people are
    cranky, cantankerous and paranoid when they're fifteen.)  Whether or not
    Alzheimer's is a "natural" aging process doesn't matter, because I've no
    doubt some way will eventually be found of staving it off even if it is
    natural.  Menopause is natural too, yet its effects can also be held at bay
    with estrogen replacement therapy.

    The odd thing that strikes me is this: we're working on better nutrition,
    ways of delaying and curing heart diseases, hypertension, cancer -- all the
    major causes of natural death.  In theory we might achieve immortality one
    day, but in the meantime, we all have to die of *something*.  If all these
    old enemies of mankind become avoidable, what *are* we going to die of?
    Something really obscure perhaps, like Kaposi's sarcoma was before AIDS came
    on the scene?  Or will we slowly wear out with bone and muscle degeneration,
    eyes, ears, and other little things going wrong here and there like a creaky
    old car, until one day we're glad to accidentally walk in front of a bus?

    This is more or less what happened to my Auntie Grace, a sweet old lady who
    survived a colostomy for bowel cancer and one day in her eighties stepped in
    front of a truck.  Subconscious suicide?  I'm reminded of the line from
    Rupert Brooke's poem "The Old Vicarage, Grantchester", about the inhabitants
    of his favorite Cambridgeshire village:  "And when they get to feeling
    old/They up and shoot themselves, I'm told."  Anyway, if people had to
    choose their health and mode of death, I'm sure most would prefer a massive
    stroke or heart attack to years of cancer or Alzheimer's.

    I think Jeff's right to attribute many of the problems of old age to plain
    depression, and overmedication.  If we dump old people in a "nice home"
    somewhere where all they have to do is play cards and watch TV all day, and
    no real involvement with *life*, of course they're going to feel useless,
    then get depressed, then get sick.  I personally dislike the system in which
    people are forced to "retire" suddenly at some arbitrary age and be faced
    with the problem of formulating goals for themselves.  It's much better for
    somebody who is self-employed, say, and can continue to work when he likes
    but just gradually slow down as he adjusts to getting older.

    You can kill people by taking away their need and their motivation to do
    anything for themselves.  We had a guy who had a fatal heart attack right in
    the middle of his retirement luncheon.  Unusual perhaps, but it only
    dramatized what only happens more slowly for many people after retirement.

    Back in Hemel Hempstead (England), people were surprised to read in the
    local newspaper of two elderly sisters who had been living in a henhouse for
    years.  I don't know why they chose not to avail themselves of subsidized
    housing offered by the borough council; perhaps they wanted to feel
    independent.  Only the farmer knew they were there; he let them live in this
    ramshackle hut and they presumably cooked for themselves over a spirit stove
    and perhaps did little jobs and lived a thoroughly spartan life.  They only
    came to public attention because the younger sister (she was 77) became ill.
    The elder sister, who was 84 I think, was in the pink of health.  As soon as
    the public health officials were notified, they came around clucking their
    tongues and saying "dear, dear, we can't have this in a civilized country,"
    and packed them both off into St. Paul's Hospital, a local geriatric
    institution.  Within a few months BOTH of them were dead.

    I should add that St. Paul's Hospital had -- not a bad, but certainly a
    darkly fearsome reputation among the local old folks.  I don't mean anybody
    was ill-treated or anything like that; it was all perfectly "nice"; but it
    was the place you went to die.  Part of its reputation may have been due to
    a superstitious tradition among the locals, because back in Victorian times
    St. Paul's used to be the Workhouse; and no doubt it was then a dreadful
    place indeed, as most workhouses were.  Superstition or no, you can still
    kill people with kindness.  Those two old ladies would probably have lived a
    lot longer doing for themselves back in their tumbledown henhouse.

    Message: 68822
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 06:06:01

     Those were some of the best posts on aging that I have seen yet, Gordon.
    Well done! and I couldn't agree more with your views on population growth.
    There was a move a few years back for zero pop. growth, but I think it sort
    of died out, perhaps for lack of interest. As you stated, if those couples
    who desire children would limit themselves to two, not only could we reduce
    the strain on natural resources, but the children that are born will stand a
    much better chance for a higher standard of living when it comes to
    education, housing, etc. My late wife and I raised 5 ourselves, and I am
    well aware of the difficulties involved. While I do not accept abortion as
    an alternative to more kids, I do believe that population growth can be
    greatly reduced in other, preventative ways, and well it should be.
     Again, thank you for your well thought, well presented views.

    Message: 68823
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/angular momentu
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 06:39:40

    An object travels in a straight line unless other forces act to stop that,
    remember?  Our object traveling in a circle "wants" to travel in a straight
    line (the tangent to a circle at every point) and some other force must keep
    it from doing this.  It *does* travel at a tangent to the radius at every
    (infinitesimal) point along the route -- that is how you get the math to
    work.  It also explains the centrifuge effect.

    Message: 68824
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/false force
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 07:18:35

    I went to my college Physics textbook last night and got the dope on
    "centrifugal force". Centrifugal force does not exist. Looking at the
    string as though it were not moving creates a non-Newtonian frame of
    reference in which a force needs to be invented (centrifugal) to balance
    the forces. This force does not exist in the Newtonian non-rotating frame.
    The college textbook derived the radial force using vectors. I did it for
    x, y -- the results are the same. There is only one force: the centripetal
    force. c'est fini.

    Message: 68825
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Israel/US pressure
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 07:21:27

    This is a form of chutzpah that we USians think we can "make" Israel do
    what WE want it to. Israel will do what it wants to, and that should be
    to lay low and attack with ferocity if attacked. We are not going to
    pressure Israel do anything unless it is in Israel's interest to do so.

    Message: 68826
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/inertial vector
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 07:22:37

    Please supply the mathematics supporting your "inertial vector."

    Message: 68827
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/your posts
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 07:56:01

    You continue to greatly impress me! Those posts on aging and other things
    was terrific. I wished you were on the board more. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68828
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Gordon/ Skinny women
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 09:33:37

    Going back to the days where plump is in?  I doubt it in this decade but
    what an interesting thought.
    Pass the chocolate cake, please...

    Message: 68829
    Author: David Parker
    Category: Joke
    Subject: 68816
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 15:17:41

    The Chinese.

    Message: 68830
    Author: David Parker
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon/death
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 15:19:45

    I'm told the upper limit on cell division is around 120 years.

    Message: 68831
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Age
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 16:46:07

    Well from my experience of working and living with old folks for over a year
    now,I find that in extreme cases of alzheimers you have no choice but to
    medicate the patient, because the ONLY other alternative is to restrain
    them(ie. tie them down).Most of the people that bring old folks to us eather
    don't want to waste the time involved with caring for them, and belkieve me
    if i say it is a 24 hour a day job, or they just can't handle the stress of
    dealing with it anymore. The later is the biggest reason. In the case of the
    lady that gordon mentioned, I venture to say that she got bad enough so she
    had to be medicated heavily. I cna see were a weak or extremly stressed out
    individual could also tend to abuse a elderly person, which by the way I
    have never done, if I get to bad I sit at my computer and type silly
    messages(grin). Most of the carehomes I have seen in the valley are nowere
    near in standards to what we do, but on the other hand we care for the folks
    like they are family. I treat them with the same care and respect I would my
    own grandparents, and at times it can be HARD. It is great when the 98 year
    old snaps out of it for a few hours or maybe even a day and tells me stories
    from the late 1900th century or early 20th century. But on the other hand 8
    month ago I had a 68 year old gentlemen die on me while i was feeding him
    supper, just fell over dead, it hit me hard. That is what we have to live
    with every day, will they die or live, not because of the money, but because
    we get atached to the folks and you can't help but love them. Believe me if
    I say it hurts to see one die. It is also hard to have a person think and
    tell you that you are the worst person in the world, and all you are trying
    to do is help them go to the bathroom, or maybe make them eat supper.

    Message: 68832
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Age
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 16:59:21

    Some of them don't want to eat, so you have to make them eat, because they
    need the nurisment. Have you ever had to change a diaper on a grown person?
    It is a messy and smelly task, I rather change a babies diaper, their bowel
    movements are a lot small and less smellier. Or maybe drain a urine bag and
    it squirts all over you face because the person can't or won't sit still.
    Or get up a 3 am after having gone to bed at 130 am to take someone to the
    toilet and afterwards you have to clean them up. Tehn I look at the end of
    the month and I bearly mad enough money to make my car payment, having to
    live a whole month from my $76 disability check. No you don't take care of
    old folks because you can make money or it might pay the rent, or maybe the
    work is easier, no you do it because you love old people and want to help
    them. The work is by far harder then any work I have done in my short life,
    to include my military service. My year is up, and I'm in a way glad and
    sad, because I love the old folks and I will come back when time permits and
    visit as often as I can. All the before mentioned things are the reasons
    these old folks are taken care of by me, not by their families, and I can't
    resent them for it, because I will never do it sgain myself. I don't think I
    could handle it. It is cruel to say, but let my sister take care of my
    parents when threy grow old, but with my urging they have made arangements
    for that case with no resentment towards me. Well, I gave my two cents
    worth, and maybe it helped answer someone's questions.
    One last word:  I would like all those that care enough to give a minutes
    prayer to the brave young men and women in saudi arabia, may god be with
    them and may they all come home safley and alive.  The Mad Max

    Message: 68833
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beau's nose grows
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 17:20:42

    But an object traveling in a circle isn't traveling in a straight line,
    now is it?  An object traveling in a circle obviously "wants" to travel in a
    circle.  What you don't seem to realize is that an object may possess two
    *components* of motion *at once*.  These components are added together using
    vector addition to give the resultant motion.  These components act
    simultaneously; the object does NOT travel in a step pattern in alternately
    perpendicular directions; its motion is genuinely circular.  Consequently,
    it does not travel in a tangential direction at every point any more than it
    travels in a radially inward direction at every point, even though both are
    components of its motion; the two components combine to cause *circular*
    motion.  It is mathematically convenient to consider these components
    separately, but their resultant is what determines actual motion.
    While it is true that if the radially inward component of motion were to
    vanish during circular motion, the object would move tangentially to the
    radius at that point, it is just as true that if the tangential component of
    motion were to vanish, the object would move radially inward, if not
    physically obstructed.  There is nothing sacred about the tangential
    component.
    As for explaining the centrifugal effect, it is obvious that a component
    tangent to the radius at a point cannot be responsible for any outward pull,
    since it is perpendicular, not radially outward.  It is the reaction of the
    object to the radially inward acceleration it experiences that causes the
    mass at the center of rotation to experience a radially outward
    acceleration, or pull.

    Message: 68834
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 17:26:53

    Who are you informing that centrifugal force does not exist?  That is what I
    have been maintaining all along.  Haven't you been reading my posts?
    Haven't you been reading yours?  I thought we had agreed to that some time
    ago.

    As for the mathematics supporting my inertial vector, perhaps you are
    confusing my use of the term "inertial vector" with the term
    "inertia-force."  Going back to my example using the string/rod and ball,
    the inertial vector consists of the component of motion which is tangent to
    the radially inward component.  The acceleration along that tangent is equal
    to R*alpha, where alpha is the angular acceleration.  The force acting along
    that tangent, then, is  m*R*alpha, where m is the mass of the ball.  The
    torque Ft*R, then, can be expressed as  m*R^2*alpha.

    Message: 68835
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Pat SToddard
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 18:35:45

    It's spelt "Mussad".
    Not
    "Mossad"

    Just mind your spelling young man, otherwise you'll have every
    Jew comming out of the closet saying you're Anti-Semetic
    and such!
    Tich tich.

    Message: 68836
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: And for you hormones
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 18:36:41

    PLANT TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK AND RE-READ MY LAST POST BEFORE
    SNIVELIING.

    Message: 68837
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JB punts Newton
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 20:57:08

    Read my lips: The object "wants" to travel in a straight line. Go back to
    Newton's first law.

    Message: 68838
    Author: Yo Homeboys
    Category: For sale
    Subject: electric guitar ^^
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 22:00:26

    duhhhhh ELECTRIC GUITAR AS IN LEAD
    (LEEEEEEED) GUITAR (GEEEEEETARRRR)
    SOME TIMES I WONDER BOUT US AMERICANS

    Message: 68839
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hostage Arabic 101
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 22:18:30

    Some useful translations for the current "restrictees" (hostages) in Kuwait:
    AKBAR KHALI-KILI HAFTIR LOTFAN. Thank you for showing me your marvelous gun.
    FEKR GABUL CARDAN DAVAT PAEH GUSH DIVAR.  I am delighted to accept your kind
      invitation to lie down on the floor with my arms above my head and my legs
      apart.
    SHOMAEH FEKR TAMOMEH QEH GOFTEH BANDE.  I agree with everything you have
      ever said or thought in your life.
    AUTO ARRAREGH DAVATEMAN MANO SEPAHEH-HAST.  It is exceptionally kind of you
      to allow me to travel in the trunk of your car.
    FASHAL-EH TUPEHMAN NA DEGAT MANO GOFTAM CHEESHAYEH MOHEMA RAJEBEH
      KESHVAREHMAN.  If you will do me the kindness of not harming my genital
      appendages I will gladly reciprocate by betraying my country in public.
    KHREL, JEPAHEH MANEH VA JAYEH AMRIKAHEY.  I will tell you the names and
      addresses of many American spies traveling as reporters.
    BALLI, BALLI, BALLI!  Whatever you say!
    MAMNOUNAN GHORBAN IN DAFAYEH MEEMUNAM.  It is with greatest pleasure that I
      sign this confession of capital crimes.
    MATERNIER GHERMEZ AHLIEH, GHORBAN.  The red blindfold would be lovely,
      excellency.
    TIKEH NUNEH BA OB KHRELEH BEZORG VA KHRUBE BOYAST INO BEGERAM.  The water-
      soaked bread crumbs are delicious, thank you.  I must have the recipe.
    ETEHFOR'AN, DEHRATEE, OTAGEH SHOMA MIKRASTAM KHE DO HAFTAEH BA BODANEH
      SHEEREEL TEEGZ.  Truly, I would rather be a hostage to your greatly
      esteemed self than spend a fortnight upon the person of Cheryl Tiegs.

    Message: 68840
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Israel
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 22:25:42

    Actually, the U.S. provides a total of $3 Billion to Israel, annually.  $1.8
    billion is in outright military aid grants (of which $1 billion goes back to
    the U.S. in the form of arms sales, $500 million is used in repayment of
    earlier military loans), and $1.2 billion is in economic aid loans, which
    must be repaid.

    All in all, it would take very little encouragement from the U.S. to have
    the Israelis strike severe blows to the Iraqi NBC warfare complexes.  As a
    matter of fact, the U.S. should have been very supportive of Israel's 1981
    tactical strike against Iraq's nuclear reactor.  Just imagine if Saddam
    Hussein were sitting pretty in Iraq today, with his finger on the nuclear
    button.

    Let's give credit where credit is due.  Israel has long been our single-most
    reliable ally in the region, and is certainly most supportive of U.S. policy
    as viewed in U.N. voting patterns.  No other nation votes with the U.S. as
    much as Israel, not even Canada, not even Great Britain, and certainly not
    Japan.  Let's remember who our tried and true friends are, the ones that
    will stick with us in the long haul.

    Michael "I'm the NRA" Kielsky

    Message: 68841
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max/Age
    Date: 08/21/90  Time: 22:47:00

    I certainly don't mean to suggest that elderly people shouldn't be medicated
    if they ARE in need of it, and still less do I mean to criticize anybody who
    does a good job of looking after old folks who need it.  I'm well aware that
    it's a messy, unpleasant job at times without very much material reward --
    only the human reward.  What does bother me, though, is that first of all
    not all homes for the elderly are of a uniformly high standard, and there
    are plenty of cases where the elderly are medicated, not because they are
    "uncontrollable", but simply because it's a bother to have to attend to them
    at all.

    But more important than that is that so many old people are cast off like
    old gloves.  Once they're not as vitally energetic and productive as a young
    person, or as much "fun" as a young person, so many families don't want them
    around.  It's those that could live an enjoyable life at a slower pace, with
    just a little help perhaps, on their own or with a family; but no, they're
    in the way, and they have to be institutionalized to clear away the clutter.

    With respect to the two old ladies in the henhouse, it's quite possible that
    the younger sister was really sick and needed medication or died as a
    natural result of getting sick.  But it was just too much of a coincidence
    for me to swallow that her sister, who was perfectly healthy to start with,
    should lose her will to live and die so soon after being put into an
    institution.  She was a great loss; I'll bet she had some stories to tell
    about the 19th century as well.

    Message: 68843
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Age
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 00:13:52

    All I can say to that is I agree, we do not take throw away patients, under
    no cercumstances. And yes having seen other so called carehomes, I have seen
    some that are in a deplorable state. I wouldn't let my dog live in a place
    like that. Much less a loved one. Like I said, I can feel for some families
    that just can't deal with it anymore, because if I had to do it much longer
    I wouldn't be able to. We in the buissness call that burnout, it happens to
    EVERYBODY in this buissness sooner or later. For instance I have seen one
    carehome owner just give the keys and deed to her house to her employees and
    leave never to be heard from again. Last I heard she was in a phyc. ward
    with a mental breakdown. I've had 4 week streches were I didn't get more
    then 3 hours of sleep and didn't see anyone under 80 except my boss.
    Thats the killer in this buissness, you can't just up and leave and go have
    a beer so to speak, these folks are helpless without you, they depend on
    everything for you, 24 HOURS a day, no exceptions.But the same goes for the
    families caring for an elderly, what are they going to do, hire a
    babysitter? There are services available, but at a very high cost, and
    medicare doesn't cover babysitters.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68844
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog/4th & down
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 02:00:12

    Cackle!!

    I've been thinking about this darned centrifuge thing all night, and I have
    come to the conclusion that there is a centripetal force, but unlike in our
    other examples (celestial orbit, ball on a string) it isn't applied from the
    center of rotation, even though it points toward the center of rotation and
    has the same magnitude and direction as though it issued from the center.
    It is applied from the opposite direction, by the wall of the centrifuge.
    The wall accelerates the object inward and moves it forward.
    In other words, what we call centrifugal force in the case of the ball and
    string, is actually the reaction of the object to the centripetal force
    being exerted on it through the string by you, and consequently you feel
    this equal and opposite force on you, and imagine that something is pulling
    the object from the opposite direction, when in fact its only the object
    pulling you.  But where the centrifuge is concerned, what we imagine to be
    the centrifugal force is really the centripetal force; the force of the
    wall against the object on the periphery, moving that object inward (as well
    as forward) along the circle.

    I'm going to have to think about this some more, and probably go to the
    library and read about centrifuge mechanisms, before I'm really going to
    have this straight in my own mind.

    Message: 68845
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Michael Kielsky
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 02:03:51

    Hmmm...looks like you and Pat Stoddard have the same source for your humor
    (and it is humorous).

    Message: 68846
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog/Newton
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 02:22:01

    Newton, shmooton.  The so-called first law is actually derivable from the
    second, F=ma.  It's a special case of the second law, where a=0 (an object
    at rest or in uniform motion has no acceleration).
    Now, that ball is initially at rest.  What it WANTS to do is STAY at rest.
    It doesn't want to travel in a straight line.  When you apply a torque, you
    force it into rotational motion.  This means acceleration, whether constant
    or varied.  (Boy, suddenly the remote echo is kinda dicey -- what's wrong,
    SysOp?)  Anyway, even though rotational motion can be broken into two
    components, it's clear that the ball does not want to travel in a straight
    line, because it wasn't traveling in a straight line before it was
    accelerated.

    Phtttttpt!

    Message: 68847
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max on old folks
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 08:32:33

    Yes it is very hard to take care of them. I think many times the children of
    the patient get a raw deal in the accusations that they don't care or want
    to take the time to care for their own parents. It becomes a war zone in the
    home sometimes having the old folks there - they disrupt everything - the
    marriage can suffer tremendously - the stress is over whelming and even the
    grand kids can suffer with senile grandpa or grandma ranting and raving. If
    one of the patient's children can't stay home and care for them, then
    outside care must be provided - a real formidable drain on the bank account.
    The children stand to lose all they've saved. Medication is/has become
    formidable too - unbelievably so. For example, in one year my Arthritis
    medication jumped from $52 per a month and a half supply to $120 for the
    same amount and I cannot get generic either. Can you imagine what a average
    old folk medication bill is? It's all fine and noble to say 'I'll take care
    of daddy - no old folks home for him or a hospital" -- but they don't know
    what they could be in for! It certainly isn't like taking care of a baby or
    a young kid. Changing a growup's diaper just isn't the same or having pop
    cuss you out and tell you he hates you or if your lucky, doesn't recognize
    you. I feel for these people that must take care of the parents. They
    usually get a bum rap. Yes, I know some people just don't care or want to
    care, but on the average, most people love their parents dearly and would do
    (try) anything in the world for them that's humanly possiable.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68848
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on old
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 08:40:00

    I think the old Chinese way is best - two people get married, they build
    their house - children come, more rooms are added - the parents of the
    parents get old and they move in with more rooms built on until there is a
    compound of rooms with the entire family. When mom & pop get too old, senile
    or need care, each of the other family members pitch in. It isn't put on
    just a couple people's shoulders. All show respect to one another including
    the elderly - even if they become senile, they are still shown respect as it
    should be. They take care of their own. This is civilized to me.
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68849
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: alz/medicate
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 09:23:35

    my father-in-law is in a nursing home. At first, we did not want him
    medicated, but after we saw him in a frenzy and with restraints we realized
    that medication is the lesser of two evils. After medication, he calmed
    down. Now, he is more content, and needs very little medication. Medication
    can be abused by a lazy staff, but if there is a lazy staff you should find
    a better nursing home for your loved ones.

    Message: 68850
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Consistency
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 13:18:41

    Lawmakers justify stiffer penalties for drug users because their
    purchases support criminals and corrupt governments.  Should we expect
    similar laws against petroleum wasters?

    Message: 68851
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 13:29:41

    I've had some similar thoughts about the environmental impact of
    overpopulation.  Various technologies are often blamed for environmental
    woes, but imagine what condition the world would be in trying to support the
    same number of people without technology!

    Message: 68852
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Myself
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 15:29:33

    Well for all those interested, Tommorrow I'm taking my computer apart for
    transport to the dorms, I should be back on sometime this weekend or early
    in the week. Since messages will propably scroll of the board by the time
    I'm back on please leave them in E-Mail for me, so I can reply. The
    discussion on old folks is great and I'd love to continue when I get back on
    line. Well, later and see you all in a few days
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68853
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Old ote
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 17:16:21

    07/13/90  Summer Block Buster Movies

    Of the movies LISTED, which one did you like BEST?
    It may be tough, but try!

    [A] Back to the Future III
    [B] Firebirds
    [C] Total Recall
    [D] Dick Tracy
    [E] Robocop II
    [F] Die Hard II
    [G] Days of Thunder
    [H] I have not seen ANY of the above movies.

    Poll results:
    [A] 5    [B] 0    [C] 10   [D] 5    [E] 1    [F] 1    [G] 0    [H] 17

    Message: 68854
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Iraq poll
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 21:37:53

    I heard on NPR that a national poll showed that an astounding 89 percent
    think that we would be able to beat Iraq in a short time ( I guess a matter
    of weeks.) I don't agree (but, then, I wasn't asked).

    1. Iraq has a million men under arms

    2. Iraq has battle-hardened troops

    3. Iraq has put hostages around key military industrial and military
       installations.

    4. Iraq would be fighting a defensive war on their territory with short
       supply lines.

    5. The US does not have conventional battle-hardened troops.

    6. The US "relies" on technology.

    7. The US won't use tactical or nuclear weapons.

    8. The US won't bomb strategic military or industrial targets because of
       3.

    Who do you think will win and how long will it take ?

    Message: 68855
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Tips & Tricks
    Subject: the [L]ibrary
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 22:29:58

            Most of the time people who look though the [L]ibrary use the
    [F]iles available cmd.   It can be a rather long list.   You can [S]earch
    by computer type instead, or by WHO uploade files to the BBS.  If you want
    to see what 'MAD MAX' has sent, use 'Mad Max' as the [S]earch string.
            If you want to see what is NEW...  and since I date the files when
    added, try using the year with the slash  '/90' as the [S]earch string and
    it will (as of this post) show you the 36 file names added this year.
    The [S]earch cmd also gives you expanded info on the file over what [F]iles
    available will show you.  The [S]earch cmd will search on ANY string in the
    [L]ibrary.

            If this helps anyone... let me know....  I would like to know if
    these 'Apollo Hints & Tips' do anyone any good?

            For you NON-$tatus users... you too can look over the [L]ibrary,
    however, you can NOT [D]ownload or [U]pload....  Think about joining the
    oldest BBS in the State of Arizona.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68856
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: hite Pages
    Date: 08/22/90  Time: 22:39:27

            Wake up!    $tatus USERS!   Only $tatus users can use or see the
    hite pages.   PLEASE update the info in them from time to time.  I have
    seen too many of you not change your COMPUTER type when you have gotten new
    hardware.  There are some of you out there who still list the C-64 as your
    main computer when you have a NEW PC clone sitting where your C-64 was.

            Also...  please consider putting in your PHONE number or changing
    your old number if you got a new one.  ONLY $tatus users can see this file.

            And, NO joking around...place only TRUE info into this file.

            Thank You one and all.....

                                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68857
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann/68848
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 07:32:03

    I thought the old Chinese way was to capture a live cricket, put him in a
    little bamboo cage, and sit around in a tea house with a bunch of other
    Chinese men and their crickets.  Go figure!

    Message: 68858
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Iraq
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 07:38:55

    1.  What is the breakdown of those "million men under arms," and how many of
    them are actually fighters?

    2.  Iraq has battle weary troops.

    3.  True.

    4.  True.

    5.  The U.S. also does not have battle weary troops.

    6.  What is wrong with relying on technology, as long as the technology is
    reliable?

    7.  How do you know?

    8.  How do you know?

    Message: 68859
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: 68813-Skinny women
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 09:42:16

    Skinny no...Shapely and healthy looking, yes...
    Heavy women were in vogue because of ignorance in the past.

    Message: 68860
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 10:23:14

    Some of the technology the U.S. relies upon is untested in real battle
    situations.  Remember how badly the F-4 faired against lower-tech fighters
    when it was FIRST employed in Vietnam?

    Message: 68861
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Irag
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 12:35:42

    Since I am a technologist, I know that Murphy's law is fully operational. We
    have systems untested in a real battle situations. For example, when we
    bombed Libya, the electronic countermeasurs designed to fool the radar of
    the Libyans also affected the radar of the attackers. We rely on complex
    systems that can break down easily. I am in favor of K.I.S.S.

    I don't remember what 7 and 8 were. Why don't you at least put your answer
    in context so I don't have to look back at my post.

    Message: 68862
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Saddam's Ear
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 17:26:39

      Putting a bounty on his ear is ok I guess, but putting a bounty on
    someone's life is conspiracy to commit murder! I don't suppose an American
    jury would convict you.

    Message: 68863
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Iraq
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 18:37:50

    Iraq's military might has to be suspect because of the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq
    was superior in both technology and manpower but it couldn't finish off
    little Iran. What's it going to do against the rest of the world? (I don't
    believe, at this point, that we should be invading anywhere, only fighting
    if the Iraqis try to seize more territory).
    I am not an expert on military matters, but I believe that the US and any
    other countries that decide to come in our side should be able to establish
    air superiority and I think that whoever gets air superiority should be able
    to win easilly. Air superiority bacically meant nothing in Vietnam, which as
    I understand was mostly an impenetrable jungle so ground forces were
    isolated from the air forces. That won't happen in the middle-eastern
    desert.
    If the trade restrictions against Iraq were kept, then that should put a
    quick end to the situation.
    And as for the unfortunate hostages, the rest of the world can't stand back
    and let a greedy Napoleon-wannabe walk all over them because he has a few
    hostages. If Hussein gets control of the oil of the middle east, then he has
    a great deal of the world under his thumb. It's a bad situation, but the
    fate of a few thousand people can't justify what would happen if Hussein is
    able to continue annexing other countries. Anyway, even if everyone was to
    apologize, back out of there and promise not to even so much as insult him
    strongly from now on, you have to seriously doubt that all those people will
    be let go.

    Message: 68864
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hostages
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 21:12:47

    Let's have a vote on this question: Would you support the president if he
    authorizes the bombing of Iraqi targets and 1000 Americans are killed ?

    Message: 68865
    Author: $ Pat Stoddard
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/last
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 21:52:02

    Roger-  remember, many of the oil workers who were in Kuwait went there in
    search of the almighty dollar.  Sort of like the people in Lebanon.  I would
    not enjoy hearing about the loss of 1,000 people, but realize that even
    though Kuwait was a realtively quiet, stable place before 2 August, the
    Middle East was still an unstable place.  If people worried about Saddam
    before the invasion, they sure kept it low-key.  Maybe the lure of tax-free
    $$$ did it.  We shall see if Saddam's bums try to throw the diplomats out of
    Kuwait.  I may find out what's up from the BBC or reading AP news wire
    reports this evening.

    -Pat

    Message: 68866
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hostages....
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 22:45:31

            If we give in so much as an inch because Iraqi has American
    hostages, we will only encourage more hostage taking.  As a major power in
    the world, we can't let this happen.  If any Americans are hurt because of
    such actions, then we should really go in and get the people responsible,
    and try them for War crimes.  As is, hostage taking by the Islam people has
    worked in most cases...  and we are the blame for this.  Had we stood up
    right from the start, this hostage taking would not be a daily thing.  Sure
    we will lose a few people, but we are losing some anyway, and it goes on.
    America can't be held hostage...  If I were held hostage, I would want
    action even if it ment my life.  Giving in to terroists is NOT the answer.

            I will back Bush if he orders an attack to liberate Kuwait now.
    We can't keep saying, "The next time you take a country, we will stop you."
    Stop him NOW!

            I was over there years ago when I was in the Navy... I wish I could
    go again... I WOULD!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68867
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hostage vote
    Date: 08/23/90  Time: 23:20:59

    If the bombing was a very necessary action (i.e., to remove some major
    munitions factory or jet hangar full of planes, etc), then one has to
    consider that bombing it may well save more than 1000 lives of soldiers. As
    I said, people like Hussein are keeping these unfortunate people because he
    knows that Americans are squeamish about hostages and it's one of his few
    aces to pull.

    Message: 68868
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JB/Physics
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 00:12:53

    Sigh.  When an object is traveling in a circle, that is because there is
    *constantly* force being applied to keep it from traveling in a straight
    line.

    Message: 68869
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Michael James/68860
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 02:41:18

    I did not state that our equipment is reliable.  Considering the practices
    which are common in the defense industry, I think it highly probable that a
    good portion of our equipment is unreliable.  But I did not state that it
    was; I merely quipped, "What's wrong with relying on technology so long as
    it is reliable?"  That is, what, if anything, could be said to be wrong in
    principle with a reliance on equipment?

    Message: 68870
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog/physics
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 02:56:10

    OK, fine.  Now tell me, what's a straight line?  Isn't straight line travel
    purely a factor of observation?  Isn't all motion relative?  WHATEVER the
    motion of an object is, when seen from some particular frame of reference,
    we can always and in an infinite number of ways choose a second frame of
    reference such that seen from the latter the object appears to move in a
    straight line with uniform velocity.

    I'll grant that it is true that if either component of motion
    disappeared, the object would move "in a straight line" according to a
    certain frame of reference, either radially inward or tangentially.

    Message: 68871
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: War!
    Subject: Iraq/hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 04:51:03

     I have to agree with Cliff on this one. The only reason that hostage taking
    is as successful as it is is because we allow it to be.
     As horrible as the thought of innocent lives being sacrificed may be, it
    must be considered as an acceptable alternative to allowing Hussein to hold
    the industrialized world hostage.
     I, too, would support an assault on Iraq and a military solution to the
    crisis, if nothing comes from negotiations in the next few days. The longer
    the situation drags on, the more tenuous our position becomes, however, and
    I think that action now has to be the rule. Hussein should be given an
    ultimatum. Either every expatriate is presented at the Saudi border, alive
    and well, within the next 48 hours, or we go in and take over, period.

    Message: 68872
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 08:49:24

    Nothing is wrong with relying on proven technology.

    Message: 68873
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Circular motion, Be
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 09:18:22

    I think it would be better to say that the vector of motion is a straight
    line...And present it this way...You whirl a stone, tied to a piece of
    string, above your head..,When you let go, it leaves in a straight line...
    Like the hammer or discus throw in track and field...

    Message: 68874
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Pat/Kuwait
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 10:02:00

    I heard on NPR that Iraqi troops surrounded 7 embassies. It hasn't been
    confirmed that the US embassy has been surrounded. Did you see that bizarre
    tape of Saddam "invading" those poor hostage's home and acting like a good
    guy. Sick.

    Message: 68875
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cliff/hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 10:03:58

    An expert on the middle-east suggested we call the hostages "martyrs". By
    using the term hostage, we tell the arabs we won't do anything. By calling
    them martyrs we send the message that we consider them already dead and that
    we  won't deal for them.

    Message: 68876
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 13:12:45

            The hostages should be called 'martyrs'....  I can accept that.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68877
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Blade Runner
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 13:22:54

            Blade Runner from the 'Criterian Collection' on Laser Disk.  I
    believe it goes into the making of the movie and other things...  Nick
    Ianuzzi can fill us in more on this.
            What we would like to do..Is plan this GT for a MONDAY NIGHT at my
    place since I have the Laser Player and Nick has this special disk.

            What I need to know... who is interested in this plan?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68878
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 14:02:45

    What do you think they're going to do with the diplomats that stay with the
    embassies in Kuwait? I understand that the US is not the only country
    leaving some there.
    I think that if they hassle, detain, injure or do anything else to the
    embassy personnel and diplomats, that should be considered a direct act of
    war on the part of Iraq...

    Message: 68879
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 14:03:55

    Calling them "martyrs" might be a great approach...that's just what the
    Iraqis would understand...

    Message: 68880
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Circular Motion
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 19:36:10

      There was an article in Scientific American some time back about some
    people researching the man-on-the-street's knowledge of physics.  They did
    things like having someone on a moving cart attempt to drop an object into a
    stationary bucket as the cart went by.  Those who understood real physics
    dropped the object a bit before they got to the bucket.  Some thought the
    forward motion of the object would cease as soon as they released it, do
    they dropped it when directly over the bucket, and were surprised about how
    much they missed by.  Some even thought they had to wait until they were
    past the bucket, because the object would somehow bounce back when they
    dropped it.
      One experiment they did that was close to the current discussion of
    circular motion involved -- now I'll try to describe this without pictures
    -- a circular table.  Imagine two circles drawn on the table, with their
    centers at the center of the table.  Imagine two radii drawn on the table,
    at about a 60-degree angle.  Now consider the figure bounded by the circles
    and the radii (sort of a fat arc).
      They wanted people to take a dry-ice puck and move it by hand across the
    table, and turn loose of it in such a way that it entered the figure at one
    end (bounded by a radius), and exited at the other end.  Some people moved
    the puck in a circular path, and let go just before crossing the first
    radius, and were surprised when it didn't continue on the circular path.

                ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 68882
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/martyrs
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:27:43

    Will Bush bomb targets if hostages are emplaced around those targets. Saddam
    Hussein certainly thinks that Bush will not. If Bush has the nerve to bomb
    those targets, you can bet that any government will think twice before
    taking another American hostage. If you were the American president, would
    you bomb those targets now before too many hostages were put there ? I would
    find it very tempting.

    Message: 68883
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: War!
    Subject: Sandi/hostages
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:29:57

    I agree that harm to the embassy personnel and diplomats should be
    considered an act of war. What do you think Bush will do if such an act
    takes place ? Also, if you initiate hostilities, don't you agree that it
    should be a massive attack against the Iraqi infrastructure ?

    Message: 68884
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: War!
    Subject: sandi/martyrs
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:30:48

    OK. Cliff, you and I are going to call the hostages "martyrs". Anyone else ?

    Message: 68885
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/68873
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:50:57

    Hmmm...interesting.  "The vector of motion is a straight line."  So then,
    according to this, all motion is straight line motion.  And consequently,
    straight line motion is any motion at all.  I don't think that's a very
    useful definition.

    Message: 68886
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/GT
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:52:11

    I'm game.  I rather like the film.

    Message: 68887
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/martyrs
    Date: 08/24/90  Time: 21:58:01

    OK, I'll go along with that.

    Message: 68888
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Martyrs or Hostages
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 00:08:20

            I think I may post a ote on this if I can think of how to word
    it.  So far we have 3 people who would except the current hostages as
    martyrs.

            As for bombing targets that have hostages there...  if they were
    vital for military reasons... sure!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68889
    Author: Mike Darus
    Category: War!
    Subject: Martyrs
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 01:35:53

    Calling the hostages martyrs will not really accomplish much from the
    American point of view.  Martyrs are not part of who we are.  We admire the
    people who live through a crisis much more than those who die in it.  This
    goes for everything from baby Jessica to airline crash survivers.  But there
    is a possibility of a great harm to call them martyrs in front of Arabs.
    Martyrdom is very much a part of thier life, especially since the war with
    Iran.  For them to kill someone with the result that they become a martyr is
    not nearly as onnerous as victimizing inocent civilians.  It becomes very
    difficult to argue for a unified Arab community in the face of human
    atrocities.  I would much rather call them "rescued" than "martyrs" as I
    know you all would too.

    I am respecting George Bush more with each passing event.  He knows how to
    wield the power of
    State like no president we have seen recently.  I think his stints with the
    CIA and as VP really prepared him for this time.  We will probably learn
    later of all kinds of power plays, but I think he knows what he is doing.

    Message: 68890
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Blade Runner
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 04:43:34

    I would have hoped for a better response.  Hey, the discs are even still in
    the shrink wrap.

    Message: 68891
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: martyrs
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 05:09:31

     Count me in on calling them martyrs. In keeping with that theme, I also
    think that the time has come for an ultimatum to Hussein. All expatriates at
    the Saudi border, alive and well, in 48 hours, or their blood is on his
    hands. Then back it up with some immediate and decisive action.

    Message: 68892
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: gas prices
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 05:13:10

     The AAA came out on Thursday with a statement that gas prices had dropped a
    penny in the past week.
     WEdnesday my favorite Arco station was selling regular for $1.05. Just
    after the announcement on Thursday, I drove past the station (about 1 mile
    away from the W. Olive branch of AAA), and it had gone to $1.09.
     I wonder who fed the AAA their figures?

    Message: 68893
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Technology
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 06:24:12

    Yeah, you can rely on it until the someone pulls the switch...

    Message: 68894
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: MONday???!
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 06:25:47

    Oh, MAN!  That't the first day of school and I have a night class!   I might
    be able to make it depending on the time.  I would like to see it even
    though I have seen it at least 10 times and I have access to the video.

    So, what time?  8 or 9?  or is that going to be too late.

    Message: 68895
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Blade Runner
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 08:41:05

    I'm game, even though somebody has to get up every 30 minutes to flip/change
    the disks...

    Message: 68896
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JB/straight line
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 08:44:06

    Ahhh, so that's your problem. Yes, indeedy, a straight line is in the eye of
    the beholder.  The one that I'm talking about is the so called non-inertial
    or 'perfect' observer -- whose frame of reference is stationary.  *He* can
    see whether or not objects are moving in a straight line, and can determine
    which (real) forces are acting upon them if they are not.

    Newton's first law doesn't hold for an observer *within* a non-inertial
    frame, as 'fake forces' tend to be needed to explain motion (centrifugal,
    coriolis).

    Message: 68897
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliffy on voting
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 09:20:26

    I can't vote because I don't know who Laura Palmer is?! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68898
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on Crickets
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 09:24:21

    If I remember correctly, it was supposedly good luck to capture a cricket
    and put him in a cage.
    Re: the old folks - they were suppose to do nothing after a certain age -
    just sit around the tea houses, and play Mah Jong - be waited upon.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68899
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/#68864
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 09:26:41

    I don't support us going over there period - muchless any of our boys
    getting killed over 'oil'! Why can't everyone see that's the bottom line?
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68900
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on hostages
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 09:33:19

    I don't believe calling them martyrs in the least. Surely they knew trouble
    was brewing before it all started. Why didn't they get out then?
    I don't want to see anyone killed. But they took their chances and went over
    there with the chance to be taken hostage. Ditto the hostages of Iran not
    too long ago. This country certainly has to be aware of these half wit
    countrie's polices on taking hostages don't they? Why the hell do we always
    seem to be putting our people in jeopardy? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68901
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 09:44:58

    Re: your - "as for bombing targets that have hostages there ... if they were
    vital for military reasons --- sure"
    Why do we have to bomb anyone/thing? What military reasons? Oil? The one way
    to really hurt them is to stop using their oil - hurt them in the pocket
    book and you'll see them come around fast. We would have to do some changing
    regarding our oil/fuel usage, but that sure as heck beats a 'war' in my
    book. I'd reather see the American people buckle down and stop using our
    fuel so wastefully with big boat of automobiles - car pool it more - stop
    making trips for pleasure - using boats, jet skis, use the busses, and walk
    more than start a war! AND we don't have to start another war to boost our
    economy either. It would be better to be a little inconvenienced then die
    for Oil don't you think? Bear in mind that our country is not being
    threatened by another nation. But it sure as heck will be if we arn't
    careful here. We would win, but so what? Will that bring dead people back?
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68902
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Environment
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 10:05:36

    After spending the last two days driving around the Colorado river and Lake
    Havasu extensively. I've come to the conclusion that we should open up more
    areas to the public, not put more in the preserves!! We should also stop
    CHARGING for public parks, campgrounds and boat ramps too. And the people
    should not have to pay for all of those countless 'No no ' signs all over
    the place - even in areas that people can't get to even if they were hiking
    into!
    The entire area reminded me of a giant funnel - all the sheep (oops, people)
    are herded into this funnel and at the end is a pay booth to collect the $3
    to use the facilities!! There is litterly thousands of miles of river and
    lake front - yet 99% is unassable (sp?) to the people. Why? All in the name
    of preservation? Bah! There's plenty of space out there for that. A lot
    more should be open for free to the people that own it - us! We must have
    paid million to make it unassable too - they have taken graders and made it
    impossible to even walk to to water. You can't even find a secluded cove to
    rest in, muchless camp in. The 'non no' signs alone we paid through the nose
    for. Some are ridiculous too - no swimming where you couldn't swim anyway.
    No parking where you couldn't park - no camping where you wouldn't camp,
    etc. etc. Here the people want to get away to a nice quiet non-stressful
    place to recoup their resorces and find nothing but signs and toll booths
    where you are cramped in with hundreds of other people who are looking for
    that little quiet cove! -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I don't think there isn't a person in the world that doesn't want to go
    out in the wilderness and build a campfire. That's totally impossible now.

    Message: 68903
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 11:03:58

            It is because of people who think like you do Ann, is why hostage
    taking has become so popular.   The thought that Americans will back down
    every time a life is threatened, is why the ISLAMic people take hostages.

            As a military man myself...I was always embarrassed with Americans
    like yourself saying we should run from trouble.

            If we had kicked '@$$' the very first time a hostage was taken...
    there would be no taking of American hostages... and in the long run, that
    would have saved many more lives, or the grief and misery of being held
    captive.

            Ann, give up your computer.... OIL was used in its manufacture.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68904
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Blade Runner
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 11:07:00

            It will be at night...how late has not been decided.  And it won't
    be this comming Monday, (at least I don't think so) but maybe next or the
    following Monday.   Once we get set on a day, then the date and time will be
    announced.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68905
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 12:59:06

    I'd be interested in that GT.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68906
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: War!
    Subject: Martyrs
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 13:01:09

    Yes I agree let call the americans in iraq martyrs.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68907
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: me
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 13:07:41

    As you can all see I got myself moved into the dorms at GCU and my computer
    is back on line, so as the disscusion on old folks can be continued if
    anyone is interested. To say the least, I don't know how to act around all
    these kids, I'm always waiting for someone to ask me to take them to
    bathroom. (grin).
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68908
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Roger/hostages
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 13:50:58

    I think Bush seems to be showing signs of meaning business. On the surface
    he has appeared to be rather casual about the matter, but he hasn't wasted
    any time assembling forces, and has carefully advanced without risking
    negative world opinion. He had to wait for the UN decision, because without
    it, in the eyes of the world, using force to stop ships would be aggression
    on our part. The trapped diplomatic personnel are exactly what the rest of
    the world has been waiting for to answer to. (Interestingly, among the
    nations with embassy personnel there are Sweden and Norway, which as I
    understand have made a policy in recent centuries of avoiding sides in
    wars.)
    If something happens, certainly it should be a massive srming attack.

    Message: 68909
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Darus/hostages
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:02:34

    Yes, but as long as we call them hostages, and cringe and fawn and concede
    every time some little country takes them, then little nothing countries
    like Iraq and Iran can tell us exactly what they want us to do just by
    grabbing a few people. They only do this because they know that it has
    worked so far with America. (Have you ever heard of people taking Soviet
    hostages?)
    The people calling the shots over there do not respect life. To them,
    martyrdom for their country/culture/faith is much more noble than being
    traded for concessions.
    If we get the chance to rescue them, fine. If not, let it be known that we
    will not get down on our knees and bow because they have taken hostages.
    To put it into rhetoric that an Arab would understand, let it be known that
    America intends to avenge tenfold for every hostage/martyr killed. Or more.
    And then, surprisingly enough, you won't see hostage taking going on as much
    anymore. In the long run, that will do more to help innocent people abroad
    in dangerous countries in the future far more than making deals. A world
    power such as ourselves should not have to lower itself to making deals with
    baby countries such as Iraq.
    Iraq should know better than to mess with us in the first place.
    Ok, Sandi is climbing down off the soapbox now. (grin)

    Message: 68910
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Blade Runner
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:03:39

    I could be convinced to make an appearance, if only to prove that I am not a
    figment of someone's imagination.

    Message: 68911
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: g
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:05:00

    I cruised by one Mobil that I used to go to regularly Wednesday night and it
    was selling regular for $1.12. The next morning when I drove by, it was at
    $1.19.

    Message: 68912
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/oil
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:06:55

    For better or worse, Hussein's got the world economy is his fist if we let
    him do as he pleases...

    Message: 68913
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ann/oil
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:11:31

    But oil is inextricably tied into the modern world economy. I'm sure that
    others on this board are more in tune with economy than I am(I hated the
    class last semester), but just for example, the Japanese, who are in
    terrible shape because of the oil situation are watching their own stock
    market crash and they can't invest in ours as much anymore, causing flux's
    in our market, which in turn is threatening to send the country into a
    recession over it(I don't understand why investors are so jittery, but it
    seems that a little change for the worse can cause a huge negative
    reaction). I'm sure that many countries in the Western world are in the same
    position. It isn't a matter of carpooling more and driving less. We're
    talking about a worldwide recession if Hussein is allowed his way.

    Message: 68914
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: News Today
    Subject: 666 NEXT!  YIKES!!!!
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 14:25:09

            Did anyone else notice that the U.N. Security Council
    resolution that authorizes the use force in the embargo against
    Iraq is resolution number 665?  Wonder what resolution 666 will
    entail...
            Pass the Revelations, please.

    Message: 68915
    Author: Mike Darus
    Category: War!
    Subject: Hostages
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 20:11:51

    Sometimes I think this conflict is only because the power brokers have too
    much to lose if an oil crisis hist the economy hard.  We have already seen a
    reduction in sales where I work because of the threat of war or problems
    with oil supply or prices.

    The issue is not whether we will tighten our belts and reduce our driving
    miles that are elective.  Even Bush pointed out that parking his gas
    guzzling boat is not the issue.  The issue is that we are part of a global
    economic system.  When Iraq sneezes, Japan gets sprayed.

    Iraq already has the fourth largest army.  It is next in line for super
    power status behind us, USSR, and China.  The situation in the USSR shows
    that military might is not a secure basis as a super power.  Economic status
    is becoming even more important.  Iraq certainly had the opportunity to
    become an ecnomic super power if we had allowed then to flow right into
    Saudi Arabia.  They might have even been in a position to go hard after Iran
    again.  They could have owned the whole Persian Gulf!  Or is this a just
    another dominoe theory in a different setting?

    Message: 68916
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Vectors
    Date: 08/25/90  Time: 20:41:59

      No, not all motion is in a straight line; it's the movement vector that's
    in a straight line.  The *path* that a moving object takes may be a curve.
    It is the sum of the momentum and all accelerations due to forces.
      Actually, it would take a differential equation to describe it right, and
    that's one math course I didn't do so well in.

                  ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 68919
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/vectors
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 04:15:11

    Well, apparently I'm misinterpreting.  Because when someone uses the term
    "motion vector," in my mind, that denotes directed motion of a given
    magnitude.  In other words, "east at 200 mph", or something like that.  If
    you are only talking about forces or accelerations, it would be better to
    refer to force or acceleration vectors.

    Message: 68920
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog/lines
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 04:21:35

    But as far as we know, there are no stationary frames of reference in any
    absolute sense.  So I'm not sure I follow you.  If a man at rest relative
    to a train moving with uniform motion relative to the Earth drops
    a coin, using the train as a stationary frame of reference, the coin will
    drop in a straight line.  But to a man standing outside the train, at rest
    relative to the Earth, using the Earth as a stationary frame of reference,
    the coin will follow a parabolic arc.  Am I missing something?
    *

    But only with regard to a so-called center of mass of the moving object,
    right?  I find it odd to consider that such a center of mass might be
    nothing more than an atom or two (if that) in the case of an exploded
    shell...

    Message: 68921
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff on Iraq
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 09:31:33

    People that think like I do? You mean people that do not want war - do not
    want to see people killed over a monatary thing like oil? It isn't as if our
    shores are threatened. That's another story entirely. This is another money
    war!
    You say your embarrassed by people like me, being a military man like
    yourself, that we run from trouble. I beg to differ with you. Whitey is a
    Korean war veteran - saw real battle - spent a year and a half in the V.A.
    hospital - still has shrapnal in his leg - yet he can see through this
    supposed war! He does not believe we belong over there or that there is ONE
    reason for Americans to get killed. I hardly think he'd be an embarrassment
    to anyone. He served in one of those wars - he saw what went on first hand.
    He believes in America like I do - a peaceful America that needs to mind
    their own business once in awhile.
    You think this is not a monatary type war - police action or what ever the
    politicians want to call it? Lets look at some statistics I have gathered in
    the last few days ....

    10% of our oil comes from Iraq. Alaska is using only 30% of it's capability.
    Mexico has supported the embargo. They have offered to encrease their
    production to help off set the shortange caused by Iraq.

    Metropolitan Phoenix is one of the few cities in the U.S. that uses a 14%
    additive of methonol to their fuel. If our government made this mandatory in
    all states, it would off set the 10% shortage by the Iraq conflict. Cont

    Message: 68922
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff again
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 09:43:27

    Cont. If this is not a greedy, contrived political manuver, (this
    intervention) then how come the fuel prices immediately increased after the
    Iraq invasion - yet the last schedualed Iraq tanker was just let through the
    restricted area just 2 days ago?

    Mr. 'Read my lips' Bush can certainly justify a tax increase now with all
    the troops on stand by in Iraq! Maybe this was just the ploy he was looking
    for to vendicate himself out of his campain promice er? But I ask myself ...
    ... how much more expensive is it for those troops to be on manuvers in
    Iraq's waters than in the Arizona desert?????

    With the economic situation in the U.S. right now, not only could the
    politicans justify a tax increase (it's inevable you know), but look how
    they could stimulate the economy by producing more helicoptors, (Mc
    Donald/Douglas is having huge lay offs right now) tanks, weapons, etc. With
    this senareo, we will certainly see inflation come about.

    We as a country is not being threatened in the least. We choose to have our
    people over in a very unstable country at best. WE put ourselves in a
    position to be held hostage. Will we never learn? Didn't Iran teach us a
    valuable lesson?

    cont.

    Message: 68923
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff/last
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 09:58:51

    Why should we not run from trouble? That is a peaceful way you know. We do
    not have to show our might to these piddling countries. They really can't
    hurt us. If we want to do something about this, then I still say buckle down
    - individually and help on the home front. Go to war with them with pocket
    books not guns and tanks. Your comment about me giving up the computer was
    kind of silly. But we ARE TRYING to do our part - we have a truck, the
    Vette, a little homemade V.W. a motor home and a boat. We have pared down
    their usage considerably - using the little gas saving V.W. at every chance
    we can and that includes Whitey using it in his work when possible. We have
    taken the boat out ONCE this summer - not every week end - the Vette has not
    been driven in over three weeks and the truck he has tuned up to where it
    preforms better - saving on fuel. The motor home has not been taken
    anywhere, period! We are not doing this to save money - we can afford to
    pump gas in all of them - we just feel right now this is the way to go about
    it on an individual basis. Our personal protest so to speak. Hell, if this
    thing gets any worse, we'll start walking where we can too.
    My grand son is in boot camp in the reserves right now and I thank God he
    won't be through with it for another couple months and won't be called to
    Iraq. If he had to go, we would not feel he was a marytyr or that he died
    serving his country or any other false reason. We'd feel he died for
    political reasons - monatary reasons, not for country. I cannot understand
    why a person as knowledgable as yourself about what goes on in this country
    cannot see through all of this political ploy. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68924
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi on Iran
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 10:02:32

    Re: your ... "for better or worse, Hussein's got the world economy is his
    fist if we let him do as he pleases..." Read my posts to Cliff and then say
    that.

    OK - lets say your above statement is totally correct - should any of us die
    for the economy? What kind of reason is that for one to give up their
    precious life for? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68925
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 10:28:26

            You seem to forget Iraq invaded another friendly country.  It is
    more then just money.  People like you want to look the other way.  Why when
    Korea was invaded did the United States step in? What's the difference?  Oh,
    I see, you think the Islamic people are less then human and don't deserve
    help.  If I was still in the service, I would be WANTING to go over there
    and would want people like you to bud out!  I am glad however the majority
    of this nation has backboan and is behind the president 100%.

            So, you want the government to make using methonol and swimming pool
    fences MANDATORY.  Well, that fits in as I believe you once said you would
    not mind if our government was a socialist dictatorship.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68926
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 10:38:33

            Did 'Appeasement' work in WWII?   Hell no... it let the enemy get
    stronger.  We as a member of this world can't turn our backs on other
    members and let them get over run by a two bit dictator who has said he
    wants to control the whole Middle East.  You would let him...and that is
    why I am embarrassed you call yourself an American.

            Iraq has the 4th largest army in the world.  If he were to gain
    power over the Middle East, his Army would be much better in a few years and
    we would even lose more American lives trying to defend ourselves when he
    decides he wants the West.  Real smart ANN.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68927
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on War
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 10:54:06

      I think you make a lot of sense there Ann. It is about oil. Kuwait was
    invaded because of oil. Our intervention is about oil. Not for us so much as
    for Japan and Europe. I think that now that the U.N. has put teeth in the
    embargo this thing can come to quick end. I for one agree about the alcohol
    fuel gambit. If I could get it, I would use it.

            Red Dwarf

    Message: 68928
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/curvilinear
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 11:25:41

    motion. I derived the formula for the velocity and acceleration vectors
    by differentiating the formula for a circle, x^2 + y^2 = R^2 with respect
    to time. If can remember, you differentiate g(x) with respect to x and
    multiply by dx/dt (I can't remember how this is derived, but is the way
    to do it) so you get 2xdx/dt + 2ydy/dt = 0 for velocity.

    Message: 68929
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/motion
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 11:28:23

    vectors are velocity vectors. A velocity vector must be a straight line,
    because it the velocity of an object taken at a particular point in time
    and space. The rate of changeof the velocity vector with respect to time
    either in direction or scalar magnitude is the acceleration. Or dV/dt where
    V is a velocity vector (has both direction and magnitude).

    Message: 68930
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: relative motion
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 11:30:08

    That is the problem Einstein solved with the special theory of relativity.
    And the theory of relativity is definitely non-Newtonian.

    Message: 68931
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/Japan's econ.
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 12:57:11

    Japan's stock market was crashing a month or more ago, before things even
    started to get warm in the Gulf.  It wasn't having an effect on ours, which
    was still going up at the time.

    Japan and Germany each have a constitution which forbids the sending of
    troops outside the borders of the country.  At least Germany is considering
    lifting this ban "so they can help out in the middle east."  "Bob" help us,
    the Germans (and probably the Japanese) are going to try to take over
    *again*.

    As far as I'm concerned, they can help out monetarily -- supporting troops
    of other countries (not really a good precedent) or, as Japan is already
    starting to do, helping out countries in the region (like Jordan) who are
    being hurt by the embargo.

    Message: 68932
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: old age
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 14:25:42

    There is nothing wrong with living to 120 or even beyond but when a person,
    no matter what age they are, begin to lose it big time then it is time for:

            Soylent Green

    Because humans are more or less taught to fear that which we call death then
    the desire to stay alive for as long as possible is the rule in this day and
    age.

    Being a person who has had the feeling of experiencing death I'd like to
    open a Death Clinic.  It's easy to die and can also be fun.  In fact, if
    done right it can be more fun than birth.
                                            Rod

    Message: 68933
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: War!
    Subject: The Middle East
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 14:46:34

    War is not healthy for children or other living things.

    It is too bad that a politicians mentality is in the forefront of military
    thinking.  It takes a real man to avoid war and Bush is a first class wimp.

    At present the U.S. military operation is costing each American less than a
    dollar a day but if war becomes reality then that figure goes to a bit less
    than eight dollars per day for each person.

    And our economy is already hurting.

    It is about oil, specifically our interests in it for this nation.  In the
    past the CIA of this country has pulled off covert operations against Middle
    Eastern countries that were underhanded.

    I would really love to find out the 'inside scoop' on this whole Iraq
    situation instead of being spoon fed pablum that is designed to make me
    pro-war and want the death of many people.

    What a slimy disgusting world I live in.  I am ashamed to be a member of the
    human race.  The situation is over profits and lives of children be damned.

    But then again it would be interesting to see a total all out war that
    destroys all life on this planet.  Peace at last.

    Message: 68934
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 16:36:58

            As negative as ever I see.

    Message: 68935
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 16:46:47

    We shouldn't run from trouble when in doing so we will be letting ourselves
    in for worse trouble later on.  What if Iraq had overrun Saudi Arabia as
    well?  They would have owned 40% of the world oil supply; nothing to sneeze
    at.  They would have the power to send this country into a recession...or
    worse.  And why should they stop there?  Why not take over some of the other
    "piddling little" oil rich countries, such as the United Arab Emirates?
    Think what all of that wealth would do?  It would finance an army the likes
    of which might threaten ours.  Certainly, there would be nothing stopping
    them from taking over the rest of the region.  *

    Message: 68936
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 16:53:36

    It should occur to you that such applied mathematics is an approximation.
    There is no way to arrive at continuous, actual circular motion by
    integrating the resultants of infinitesimal vectors.

    Message: 68937
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod's death clinic
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 16:56:11

    Would you play endless loop tapes of smarmy easy-listening music?  Perhaps
    you should call it a living-death clinic.

    Message: 68938
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/total war
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 17:01:16

    Hey, maybe we can start a society for the advancement of global destruction?
    Let's see, we need a good acronym...how about   --  D.E.A.T.H. --
    that is, Doom Eating Aardvarks Try Handball...no, uh, Delicate Eels At The
    Halifax...no, well, maybe not.

    Message: 68939
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/special theory
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 18:39:57

    Actually, Einstein himself says in "Relativity: The Special and General
    Theory; a clear explaination that anyone can understand" that "The principle
    of inertia and the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light are
    valid only with respect to an inertial [Newtonian] system." (From Appendix
    V) Since the constancy of the speed of light is a tenet of the Special
    Theory, it follows that the Special Theory involves only inertial systems.

    Message: 68940
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: War!
    Subject: Iraq
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 19:26:40

    So, if Iraq took over ALL of the oil fields in the entire world save for the
    ones in our territory then what?  Would they refuse to sell it to the
    so-called free world?  No.  Would it cost more?  Perhaps it would and maybe
    it wouldn't.  Free market and all, everyone has to eat.  In any case I doubt
    if Iraq would dump the oil.

    Besides, it seems that the U.S. is either heading into a recession or even a
    depression, depending and I doubt if our military involvement is going to
    stop either.  It takes big bucks to keep a war going and a lot of those
    bucks will be used on foreign soil.

    The U.S. has oil and may have to charge more at the gas pump for it but this
    will only cause other forms of energy to be developed that much faster.

    The only product that the Middle East has that we want is oil.  Let them
    have it.

    I guess men would rather kill each other than have fun.  It takes a real
    illiterate to praise war and death.

    Yes, it is negative to want peace.  Positive and intelligent thinkers all
    want war.

    Mail to John Cummings
    Date: 08/26/90  Time: 19:27:47

    I don't remember being in the situations you describe but I will do some
    more thinking on it.

    If one of our children takes something of another then I assume that
    whatever it was that was taken is being shared which is how it should be.
    At least I have explained to the children that whatever we think we possess
    is ours for a little while and then will go to another.

    I try to emphasize fun as in 'child'.  When I was growing up and wanting to
    finally become a full fledged adult I thought I knew it all as most
    immature people do.  But then I realized that it was the adults of this
    world who are causing all of the problems.  I then decided that just the
    sound of that word was negative and therefore elected to be as much like a
    child as possible.  You know, Jon plays with Sol and they get into a fight
    but a half-hour later they are playing again like it never happened.  But
    if Mr. Smith becomes angry with Mr. Jones then they just may never speak
    again.

    I have told all of my children that the word FUCK is not a necessarily a
    bad or dirty word but that any word can be bad if it is used to hurt
    another.

    None of my children have ever been grounded for more than a half-hour and
    that refers to my eldest son Solomon.  I talk with all people on the same
    level whether they be 3 or 93.  Children may not have the experience or
    knowledge that adults have but they certainally have the mental capacity to
    reason as well if not better.

    In fact the children are our only hope in that if they learn good values
    then when they become the inheritors of the responsibility of this world it
    will get better.  They are mutants of us and are better able to deal with
    the problems because they have the energy.

    But that energy is suppressed and channelled into kid things.  They are
    just told to be good little kids and mind mommy and daddy.  They are
    trained to become consumers and workers doing mundane things all their
    lives so as to not rock the boat.

    The adults, drinking their cocktails and doing other similar adult things
    are for the most part brain dead.  They teach their kids that a eternal
    punishment awaits them if they do not conform to their way of thinking.

    When a child finds out that they have been misdirected and outright lied
    too (not all do) then they become the rebels of this world and are quickly
    taken out by the establishment.  Prisons are full and getting fuller and
    with those who have found out what a bunch of bull shit they have been
    fed.

    This world, because of man, is not a good place at all.  It is corrupt and
    those who have been coming into it for centuries are so far down on the
    pecking order that the best they can hope to achieve is to buy (ha ha) a
    house, a new car, keep a job for 20-25 years, retire and die all the while
    supporting a corrupt and evil system that favors the few.

    There is no adult sharing.  But there is charity and a person who receives
    it is constantly reminded who and what they are.  People for the most part
    have their heads up their asses and have to either invent belief fantasies
    or go with the main one just to survive on a daily basis.

    This world is so far away from brotherhood and love that you or I will not
    see it nor will our childrens children children.  Unless of course
    something akin to the thinking of the youth of the sixties comes about and
    manages to win over the evil empire.  But that is a pipe dream because THEY
    have guns and are trained to use them by order, just as in China.

    In Capitalism there is no such thing as "Give Peace A Chance" as one
    outweighs the other and totally eliminates it.  Profit is the only motive
    that mankind understands.  Fuck this world and fuck this human body that we
    call home.  Both are blights on any type of intelligence.

    In the meanwhile I am just passing through, ho, ho, but believe me there
    is no fear in dropping this sack of shit that is called a body at any time.

    Love is basically co-dependence, the mutual agreeing of life forms to form
    a bond with others so they will feel needed and wanted.  Everyone needs
    someone or they will go stark raving insane.

    Me, I love all humanity equally.  Each life form to me is kin.  No one is
    innocent.                        Rod