### Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 11, 1990

    Note:  Message numbers 63228 & 29 were left by me under the name of Robert
    Thornbug.  Cliff (as stated in a later message) zapped them although the
    content of the messages were in good taste.

    Message: 63230
    Author: Larry Michaels  I left this message, it didn't get zapped.
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: answers
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 01:33:46

    Answer to several other posts from this
    (1) Einstein (Intelligent people who used drugs; tobacco)

    (2) Charles Manson was a product of his environment.  Before he had ever
    heard of drugs he had been beaten and bullied by his parents.  He was
    treated like a worthless nothing from his early childhood.  It wasn't drugs
    that did him in.  It was a social structure that lacks in intelligence.

    Message: 63231
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 01:54:45

    But I *have* shown you how you are wrong.  I have shown you and given
    numerous examples and even given you questions to ask yourself, which, if
    answered honestly, would force you to concede my point: people would do LOTS
    of things they currently would not now do, if there were no legal
    reprocussions.  Your failure to admit this indicates an unwillingness to
    change your attitudes to fit reality, and a tendency to do the reverse. As
    for the use of addictive substances, not everyone is going to instantly
    become an addict, of course.  But the fact that you know people who have
    tried things like cocaine without becoming addicts in no way changes the
    fact that cocaine is highly addictive.  It is not quite the same thing as
    alcohol, where addiction is more influenced by genetic predisposition than
    by an inherent effect of the substance.  Furthermore, for many people drugs
    like cocaine (and particularly the crack form) provide a high like they have
    never experienced before.  Some even prefer it to sex.  This, combined with
    the highly physically addictive properties of the chemicals, all too often
    provide the motive for the repeated use which is necessary to cement an
    addiction.  Do you really think, to use an analogy, that having experienced
    their first orgasm, a person is going to eschew orgasms, or be satisfied
    with the "occasional" orgasm, perhaps because orgasms lack meaning and they
    "have something better to do"?  This discussion becomes tiresome. Your
    attitude toward hard drugs is childishly naive and immoderate, and instead
    of admitting that there are two sides to the coin of legalization, you cling
    to the foolish notion that most everyone who would use drugs is already
    doing so.  Wake up.  Stop dreaming.

    Message: 63232
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Larry Michaels
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 02:00:45

    In response to your point number two, how can you keep a straight face and
    suggest that Charles Manson's behavior was the result of his environment?
    Are you sure this isn't Zak in disguise?  It sounds just like the sort of
    Mr. Magoo style delusion that he would entertain.
    Lots of people are bullied, beaten or unloved during their "formative
    years."  Almost none of them become heinous criminals like Charles Manson.
    Your theory is nothing more than knee-jerk liberalism, and lacks even the
    semblance of reason.  Pull your head out, buddy.

    Message: 63234
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 02:53:16

         Can we please drop this "intelligent person" thing?  It's as if we need
    to think up reasons to do or not do drugs for intelligent people, but there
    need not be reasons either way for those who are less-than-intelligent.

         As to your reason, "because it's illegal," I have to concede that
    people should stick to the law as much as they can.  But when one feels that
    the law is unreasonable, it's hard to say whether or not it's moral to break
    that law.

         Laws are meant to serve everybody's self interests by protecting our
    rights.  Laws sometimes don't get it right, though.  Some laws try to go
    beyond their function by not protecting people's rights, but by stepping on
    them.  Everybody has the right to make a choice (be it oral sex,
    pornography, or drugs), as long as that person is not forcing another to
    participate.  If I feel strongly that the government's law is ill-conceived,
    then I have to ask myself if I'm willing to break it.  Some people say yes.
    After all, the "law" is not the sum and total of what is right and what is
    wrong.

         This is a new area of discussion.  I don't think that people should
    break laws as a rule.  (No pun intended.)  In fact, this is the very reason
    I think drugs should be legalized.

    Message: 63240
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Manson
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 04:11:10

         *Of course* Manson was the result of his environment.  Who isn't?  (In
    addition to genetic factors...)

         Whether or not Manson was unstable before he did drugs is not certain.
    I don't know enough about him, and about his pre-maniac days, to make a
    judgment.

         I *do* know an insane man by the name of Y'Shua Lord of Hosts 666
    Israel whose weird religious beliefs are based on a hallucination he had
    which was caused by a chemical imbalance in his brain and liver brought on
    by drinking high doses (30-40 cups of coffee a day) of caffeine.

         Whew.

    Message: 63241
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tyson/Douglas
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 05:45:48

     I watched the whole pitiful thing. It seemed that Mike Tyson had something
    more important (to him) than the world championship on his mind. He didn't
    even try to fight. The stats showed that Tyson had thrown some 212 punches
    to Douglas' 400 something. Douglas clearly dominated the entire 10 ronds,
    and in my estimation deserved the win. If it hadn't been for the KO, I'm
    sure he would have gotten the decision. Tyson's most miserable showing, for
    sure.

    Message: 63242
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Eagles Gather?
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 08:57:54

            Re: "Apollo is the place where the eagles gather".....  I like that!

            Good Grief!  Why must vultures descend down amongst the Eagles?
    I will agree with the fact that Zak and Dog are so skillful, they can  call
    you a name and you not even know it... somehow I don't think that is fair.

    Message: 63243
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Alias
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 09:15:54

            I do not mind if some people use an Alias ... however, I will
    respect a persons idea best when s/he uses their correct caller name.
    That correct name can be an alias if you stick with it.
            I do not like multiple logins using many different names, and I
    won't tolerate people using similar names to other users. As in Robert
    Thornbug.

            If you are not ashamed of your ideals, then use your correct caller
    I.D.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 63244
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bobthorn
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 10:03:47

    You are so used to the mind-gymnastics required by your belief in
    an inerrant bible, that you can't see a simple fact. Stop projecting
    your twisted logic onto others. I make a statement of fact. You call
    it semantics. James White would call it semantics. You say I am dealing
    in semantics. No, Bob, I deal with the facts as best I can YOU deal with
    semantics.

    Message: 63245
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James on Tyson
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 10:28:19

    Couldn't happen to a better guy! \\* ANN *//

    Message: 63246
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on bashing C.s
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 10:46:22

    I guess I miss most of the Christian Bashing on TV or just don't pay that
    much attention to it. You are probably right about them depicting them as
    stupid, coniving and hypocritical as a whole. Sorry to say, they are right
    about some of them - Bakker, Swaggart, etc. etc. But the movie Elmer Gantry
    was loosely based on fact - it was about a woman called Amie Simple
    McPherson. She was an evangilist during the 20s & 30s - had a place near
    Echo Park called Angellous Temple (sp). This woman was good looking and
    totally spellbinding. She could make people take off their wedding rings to
    add to the collection pot. It was for the most part a fire & brimstone type
    of preaching - go to hell stuff if you wore make-up - dyed your hair or
    smoked and drank. It was VERY, VERY popular - she had a massive following.
    Yet, she did this all behind the congragation's back and the other main
    preacher (I can't remember his name) was her lover. How do I know all this?
    My mother was her house keeper for a couple of years. She had a mansion
    somewhere and would always disappear for a few days - saying she was going
    into the wilderness to pray and ask God for guideness and then come back and
    tell her congragation what He said! They did not know she met her lover
    their, drank, smoked and raised hell instead of praying. I remember there
    was a big stink about her death - nobody could find out what happened, but
    she acturally comitted suicide over this guy. For her time, she was ever bit
    as big as Swaggart or Bakker. She did give religion a bad name for awhile.
    That's unfortunate because most of them are not like that. But you've got to
    admit Bobby that religion has become a business in today's world in a lot of
    cases. \\* ANN *//

    Message: 63247
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on the fight
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 10:53:06

    Somehow I get the impression this was all done in the 'name of a rematch'!
     Ha ha. If all goes well, then Tyson should win the title back and the
    coffers will be filled of the promoters. \\* ANN *//

    Message: 63248
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 11:58:34

    Re:  "Can we please drop this "intelligent person" thing?"

    Sure!

    Re:  "But when one feels that the law is unreasonable, it's hard to say
    whether or not it's moral to break that law."

    I think this is an area ripe for discussion.  Maybe you could list a few
    laws you feel are unreasonable enough to qualify being moral when broken.  I
    can think of several.  Like saving a baby's life by picketing an abortion
    clinic.  I mention this one in particular because so many people condemn
    those who picket abortion clinics.  I have never picketed an abortion
    clinic, but I feel it meets the criteria for breaking the law and remaining
    moral.

    Message: 63249
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ZaK
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 12:01:00

    Re:  "Thus, Robert Thornbug and Larry Michaels are born"

    Huh?  Are you saying I am logging on under various names to support my point
    of view?  I thought you knew me better than that Zak.

    Message: 63250
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 12:04:15

    Re:  "Manson was the result of his environment.  Who isn't?  (In
    addition to genetic factors...)"

    Whether it was environment or heredity I don't know.  What I do know is that
    an individual must be responsible for his own actions.  We cannot excuse The
    Mansons of our society just because they had a bad childhood.  I see too
    much of this in the judicial system today.

    Message: 63251
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 12:06:52

    Re:  "somehow I don't think that is fair"
    What's not fair?  The fact that they can call you a name and you don't
    know it, or the fact that vultures will always try and hang around the
    eagles?

    Message: 63252
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 12:13:04

    Re:  "You are so used to the mind-gymnastics required by your belief in
    an inerrant bible"

    Cut me some slack Roger.  Any one can make those kind of accusations.  With
    a few minor changes in your wording, I could make the same type of
    accusations against you.  Why don't you point out why you think the Bible is
    so full of errors that I must resort to mind-gymnastics to believe it.  I'm
    talking about facts Roger.  Give me some facts.

    Message: 63253
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 12:20:00

    Re:  "I guess I miss most of the Christian Bashing on TV or just don't pay
    that much attention to it."

    I'll try to compile a list of recent Christian bashing on TV and post it
    here.  It's going to be tough because I don't watch that much TV.  Speaking
    of TV the "TERMINATOR" is coming!

    Re:  "Sorry to say, they are right about some of them - Bakker, Swaggart,
    etc. etc. But the movie Elmer Gantry was loosely based on fact"

    That's the big problem!  They are wolves is sheeps clothing.  I would say
    that every time you find an obvious hypocrite ripping off the people in the
    name of God, the person is *not* a Christian.  But all non-Christians are
    so eager to point the finger and lump all Christians in the same black pot.

    Message: 63255
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 13:18:38

    Would you eagles please kill each other?  Us vultures are getting hungry.

    Message: 63256
    Author: Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 13:32:28

    Kill da eagles...

    Message: 63257
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 63249
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 14:48:34

    RE:  "Are you saying I am logging on under different names..."

    No, I didn't have you in mind at all, Bob.

    I agree that people are responsible for their actions whether or not they're
    a product of their environment.  The two ideas (responsibility and
    product-o-environment) are not incompatible.

    See, you have ideas about laws worth breaking also.  I happen to think drug
    laws can be broken, and you think the same of abortion laws.  Unfortunately,
    there's probably no way we'll ever convince each other of our position, so
    we'll just have to live with each other.   Well, not in the same house or
    anything.

    Message: 63258
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gathering Birds
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 14:50:08

    Cliff:  "They can call you a name and you not even know it...somehow I don't
    think that is fair."

    Do you really think this, Cliff?
    Or are you exaggerating just a bit?
    REALLY.
    Know me better, I think you know me better.
    !

    Message: 63259
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last/Zak on names
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 15:15:15

            I was EXAGGERATING a whole bunch!

            If I am suppose to be an Eagle, why do I feel like such a turkey
    answering these questions?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*  Gobble, Gobble......

    Message: 63261
    Author: Lawrence Wilson
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Drug cure !!!!!!!!
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 15:25:47

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    It looks like a Walkman but the Brain Tuner is much
    more. According to articles published in OMNI and
    Magical Blend magazine, results commonly reported
    by users of this experimental research are stress
    reduction, raising of stress tolerance levels,
    decrease in worry, depression and anxiety, normalized
    sleep patterns, reduced sleep requirements, more
    vivid and lucid dreams, improvement in both short
    term and long term memory, improved concentration,
    increased energy levels and reduced psychophysiological
    craving and withdrawal symptoms from drugs and alcohol.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    This wonderous, new device has just come on the market.
    For more information call (602)968-9764. Ask for
    Mr. Brian.  If anyone you love is hooked in the
    nightmare of drug addition, the solution may be a
    phone call away !!!!!!!!!!!
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Message: 63262
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hi
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 16:20:26

    hi

    Message: 63263
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: HGH-3X
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 18:01:46

    Some of you may have seen the Hi-Health ads for a product called HGH-3X.
    This supposedly changes your body's metabolism so that your ratio of body
    fat to lean mass is changed in favor of lean mass (i.e. it reduces fat.)
    I have always felt that this was about an fraudulent as "Dream Away"
    (another diet pill that "burned fat while you sleep"), but recently their
    claims have included television commercials claiming that an article in the
    December 28, 1989 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine says that
    the stuff works.  This was just too much for me to stomach, so I called
    their bluff and went down to the library to examine the issue in question.
    The article had absolutely NOTHING to do with HGH-3X.  The article was a
    published study on the effect of recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) on
    the body composition of people who were deficient in it, and who had an
    abnormal fat to lean ratio.  rhGH is a strictly regulated substance; not
    something you can go down to your local health food store and purchase.
    HGH-3X is composed not of rhGH, but of four protein amino acids (not a
    hormone).
    When I asked Hi-Health about this, they claimed that HGH-3X works by
    stimulating the pituitary gland to produce more rhGH.  The medical article
    said nothing about the effect of protein amino acids on the body, and, while
    I am not a doctor, I strongly suspect that no scientific proof exists to
    demonstrate the validity of such a claim.

    Message: 63264
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: mind-gymnastics
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 18:41:11

    All right, Bob, give me an example of mind-gymnastics that is required
    by my belief in reality.

    Message: 63265
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/rhGH
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 18:52:13

    Is rhGH produced by the pituitary gland ? If so, it may be possible that
    the protein in HGH-3X may stimulate the pituitary to produce more rhGH.

    Message: 63266
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT - "hi"
    Date: 02/11/90  Time: 19:05:04

    "hi"?  Are you drunk again?

    Well, since you're back, how was your visit with Rae?  You didn't put a pie
    in her face or anything like that, I hope.