### Apollo BBS Archive - April 22, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6220
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Last....
    Subject: Some people
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 13:41:33

    Some people, like those in the dark ages, unable to understand or
    cope with anothers beliefs go on witch hunts in an attempt to do harm
    to those of beliefs alien to their own.
    This act of fear and ignorance overwhelms the afflicted individual
    to such an extent that rational behaviour and common courtesy is thrown
    out the door. You would expect in a society of today's sophistication
    that differing belief systems, opposing ideas and new concepts would
    flourish. They do not however. If man was capable of accepting the fact
    that his neighbour might think differently and act differently we
    certainly wouldn't need to insult or attempt to disrupt and anger the
    neighbours. Rod William has shown us that he is incapable of accepting
    someone else's beliefs. For someone who screams for progression so
    loudly, his perverse insistence on insulting those with differing beliefs
    and disrupting the influence of those beliefs will never permit peace
    or tranquility. Only war in like kind. Hate in like kind. Disruptive
    acts in like kind. He's been at it so long that one would be blind to
    think that Rod derives anything but intense pleasure from hurting people
    feelings, bashing their ideals and mocking their faith.
    This is the great pity. A man so involved is wasting energy destroying
    and attempting to destroy peace could find other non-conflict areas of
    pursuit. In such, he proves that man will never be able to achieve what
    he desires most....

    Message: 6221
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 14:01:39

            VERY, VERY well put!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*   Cliff!

    Message: 6222
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: atheist hell
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 19:07:25

    Atheist hell is having to listen to Pat Robertson for eternity.

    Message: 6223
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: agnostic bashing
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 19:08:57

    Rod is honest. he tells it like it is. I applaud him for it.

    Message: 6224
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 20:44:38

    I generally agree with you, Roger, within the context of our current
    discussion.  I almost posted a rebuttal, but Mr. Williams is a big boy and
    seems to be handling himself pretty well, and I figured he'd want first
    crack.

    Message: 6225
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 23:21:54

    You're right.  Christians have been 'persecuting' those different from
    themselves for over a thousand years.  Witch hunts.  The Crusades.  People
    who were different died horrible and violent deaths.

    I don't recall too many mass murders by organized Athiests.  Christians have
    the franchise on that, I guess.

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:
     2:           VERY, VERY, well put!
     3:
     4:****THE MIGHTY APOLLO USER****
     5:END

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    Message: 1263
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 02:28:04

         So it all boils down to another conspiracy theory.  The schools are
    trying to break down the students and subvert them away from their parents'
    morals.
         I find your evidence very unconvincing.  It seems to be based on
    obscure and outdated sources.  For example, one of your quotes said that
    students in some sort of special  program were told that "everything is
    beautiful."  The report was from 1971 so let's assume the students were told
    this in the late 60s/early 70s, probably by some idealistic teacher who
    meant it in a broad sense:  a philosophical message that may not be very
    nutritive, but is not potentially damaging to any child's moral fiber.  By
    the way, why don't you put your little excerpts into some sort of context?
    How old were the kids?  What state, what was the program?

         RE:  "I noticed in your post how you were told you were an individual
    with a mind...able to make your own decisions about the rights and wrongs of
    life."

         1.  Sandy, can you read?  Go back - I said that *I* thought it was OK
    if *high school* students were not shielded from the opinions of their
    teachers, because no high school student with half a mind is going to
    voluntarily make him/herself a mental puppet that sucks up and retains the
    morals of every authority figure he/she comes into contact with.
         2.  You say:  "This is one of the items quite a few parents are upset
    about."  Are they upset because a school would tell its students they each
    had a mind?  Horrors!  Egads, Martha, they told little Joey that he had a
    MIND!  Get him out of that school, and FAST.  Parents like that are fools.
         3.  You continue:  "...The school teaches the child not to trust the
    parent...if you have a problem come talk with a teacher, etc., but not your
    parents."  This is pure bullshit, Sandy.  None of your so-called evidence
    supports this.  It is obviously just wishful thinking on your part.  If you
    want to believe, that's fine, you can make up sources if you want.  But you
    can't fool the rest of us.  I was in school - I still am in school.  I was
    never told, by ANYONE, "don't talk to your parents about your problems."  I
    think you may fear that some authority will say things that will cause your
    children to start thinking for themselves.  In your eyes, that may very well
    be bad.  I think it's good.

    Your claims, revisited:
         1.  Today's schools' priority is to help the child grow morally.
         2.  Schools tell children there is no such thing as right or wrong.
         3.  Schools say, "if it feels good, do it" to their students.

         Sandy, you really should sit in on some modern day (no, not 1969 but
    1990) classrooms.  Base your judgments on actual experience, not obscure and
    irrelevent sources.

         RE:  Sidney Simmon.  Next time I go to the library, I may take a
    look at his book.  Who is he?  And what schools are using tactics to "break"
    kids who are not strong emotionally?  To what end do they do this?  (Oh yes,
    I forgot, to make the kids have no morals.)

         I think that the qualifications that the program you mentioned listed
    for having sexual intercourse seemed pretty reasonable.  Those
    qualifications leave room for religious sexual beliefs, parentally-inspired
    beliefs about loving your sexual partner, and considering the consequences
    of it.  I saw no "if it feels good, do it" message in those qualifications.
    In fact, they are saying just the opposite:  "Don't do it if it conflicts
    with your moral beliefs."

         As for schools cheating on test scores, this is hardly relevant.  The
    PUHD has no such bonuses for schools or teachers.

    What is the National Diffusion Network?  Who are they and what is their
    agenda?

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 64920
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: In search of
    Subject: my pants
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 04:38:59

    Well I am glad that some of you were concerned about my whereabouts.

         It's not easy getting on the BBS after almost a week.  First of all, it
    has taken me 4 logins just to read all the main board messages, since the
    PUB board is virtually last in line and I replied to messages in the other
    sigs.  Second, the volume of messages and the diversity of content leaves me
    not so much with a feeling of "Oh, I gotta reply, I gotta reply!" but more
    plain bewilderment.  Like "Wha?"  That's where my mind is at - "wha?"
          I don't know what Jeff Beck is talking about.  I started reading his
    stuff but it was just *too complex* for me.  I'm rushing through, trying to
    get to the end.  I don't want to read about "solitons."  I barely know what
    an atom is and what makes it go, let alone a soliton.  Maybe some day I'll
    finish _The Tao of Physics_, but for now I'm stuck on page 10.  That's life
    - whether or not you understand quantum mechanics.  Or Jeff Beck.
         And I *still* haven't had time to outline my response to Daryl's Jesus
    messages, God damn it.  But I do have replies forthcoming, Daryl.  One is
    serious, and it won't be very long.  The other is a satire of your messages,
    written using your exact messages in fact.  Key words are replaced however,
    and the effect is...somewhat blasphemous.  But I may not put it on the
    board, Cliff might zap me.
         If I may continue to ramble, I do think that Cliff is mighty noble to
    change his mind about showing up at the GT.  I don't know why he won't shoot
    in front of a camera.  But that's Cliff.  I guess I'll try to write
    something "usual" now.

    Message: 64921
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Danforth chapel
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 04:55:01

         I don't think you can make a case for a double-standard by comparing
    the ASU Devil or the Indian pictures to the cross on the Danforth Chapel.

         -- The chapel is supposed to be non-denominational.  That alone is a
    good reason to take the cross down.  Would a Jewish person be likely to feel
    comfortable in a chapel with a cross on it?  If the idea is for the church
    to be a place where anybody of any religion can find peace of mind, doesn't
    a cross on top taint the "it's for everybody" idea quite a bit?
         Since a cross denotes the idea of it being a Christian chapel, then
    government land is being used to support a single religion.  This is in
    direct conflict with "separation of church and state."  This should be easy
    to understand.  However, a non-denominational chapel is not in conflict with
    separation of church and state.

         -- The ASU Devil does not support a religion and is not intended to.
    It's a mascot, treated like any other mascot, and it has connotations of its
    own separate from religion.  The ASU Devil is not represented in a religious
    context.  It's not used to symbolize something religious.

         -- The Indian pictures are not there to support a belief in Indian
    religion, but are more likely there to represent some of Arizona's heritage.
    They are a representation of culture, and the comparison between them and
    the chapel is ridiculous on its face.  I wonder what would happen if ASU's
    mascot was a grinning Jesus?

    Message: 64922
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 04:57:01

    I loved _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintencance_.  What other books do
    you recommend that have impacts as strong as it does?

    Message: 64923
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on noble
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 09:28:22

            Noble?  Hardly...  It's that Sandy wants to go and I am going to eat
    the hot dogs and help set targets for you gun nuts and camera nuts.

                                            i-

    Message: 64924
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: When & Where
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 10:37:16

    Ok, we're making progress.  It seems that I am not unwelcome, but telling me
    that it is the same place as "last time" is pretty much unuseful
    information.

    So, the question stands, even if Dean Hathaway must answer it:

    When (as in time in the moring) and *WHERE*, as in physical location?

    Thank you for your support,

    Michael Kielsky "I'm the NRA", and I have membership applications for those
                    of you, who should be NRA, too.

    Message: 64925
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Shoot-out GT
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 13:28:30

    This comming Saturday will be the 28th of April.
    All and any folks here on this system are welcome. Friends, relatives,
    etc I'm sure no one will mind either...
    I think we should meet somewhere first before we leave..rather than
    meet out in the desert and lose people...a place in town where
    we can gather and leave en masse.

    I propose Cliffy's place!

    Message: 64926
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Kielsky
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 14:11:00

            I also belong to the NRA, but let's not make this GT political.

                                    i-

    Message: 64927
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cross/symbols
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 17:07:23

    I think we need to look at the reason that the cross was considered
    to be in violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution, and
    then attempt to apply the same reasoning to the Sparky, Kachina, and
    any other symbols that may be found on the walls of our state university.
    Since there is an ACLU BBS in town, it might be useful to call them
    and discuss this issue. BTW, their number is 271-9357. Since I don't
    know the details of the case, any argument I may make may jeopardize
    my "status" of an astute thinker further by exposing my ignorance rather
    than my -er ability to think clearly.

    Message: 64928
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: carter/aclu
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 17:14:24

    Why don't you bring suit. You don't need the ACLU. in fact, I suspect
    that the ACLU being a radical pro-liberty organization may indeed be
    interested in such a test.

    Message: 64929
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak's pants
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 20:35:28

    Hey, I'm just a layman, the same as you.  I just think that these ideas are
    fascinating, and have discovered that, if I expose myself to them, over a
    period of time, what used to be a deficit in certain areas of math and
    science is being slowly replaced by a strange brew of facts, notions, and
    insights which (more and more often as the process continues) seem to relate
    to each other and even occasionally fall into place.  But, yes, its a
    question of interest.  Mine waxes and wanes, changes over time.

    BTW, first Melissa says she's spending her Saturday nights with Beau, and
    now it seems that you are in her pants.  Which is it?  Or both?  Or neither?
    And have you three worked out a juggling routine?

    Message: 64930
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Weapons Systems...
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 20:37:26

    "Meanwhile, new generations of weapons were rising in price exponentially.
    The airplane of the First World War was made of canvas, wood, and piano
    wire, with a couple of machine guns; landing gear and all, it cost about as
    much as a good automobile.  A comparable airplane of the Second World War
    cost as much as thirty automobiles.  By the end of the century, the price
    of a jet interceptor or a radar-proof bomber of the "Stealth" type was in
    the billions of dollars.  At this rate, it was calculated that over the next
    eighty years each superpower would be able to afford only twenty to twenty-
    five new planes.  Tanks were no cheaper.  And an atomic aircraft carrier,
    which was like an antediluvian brontosaurus under fire, cost many billions.
    The carrier could be sunk by a single hit from a F&F superrocket, which
    could split over the target into a cluster of specialized warheads, each to
    strike at a different nerve center of the sea leviathan.
    At this same time, the production of microchips was discontinued; they
    were replaced by a product of the latest genetic engineering.  The strain
    Silocobacter wieneri (named after the creator of cybernetics, Norbert
    Wiener) produced, in solutions containing silicates, silver, and a secret
    ingredient, solid state circuits that were smaller than fly eggs.  These
    elements were called "grain," and after four years of mass production
    a handful of them cost no more than a handful of corn.  In this way, from
    the intersection of two curves -- the rising curve of cost for heavy
    weaponry and the falling curve of cost for artificial intelligence -- came
    the "unhumanization of the military."

    "Armies began to change from living to nonliving forces.  Initially, the
    effects of the change were undramatic.  It was like the automobile, whose
    inventors did not immediately come up with an entirely new shape but,
    instead, simply put an internal-combustion engine in a cart or carriage,
    with the harness removed.  Similarly, the earliest pioneers of aviation gave
    their flying machines the wings of birds.  Thanks to this kind of mental
    inertia, which in the military is considerable, not very radical new
    missiles, unmanned tanks, and self-propelled artillery were adapted . . .
    But this was anachronistic . . .
    This came at a time when the world was slowly recovering from two economic
    crises.  The first was caused by the formation of the OPEC cartel and the
    big increases in the price of crude oil; the second, by the collapse of
    OPEC and the sudden drop in the price of oil.  Although early nuclear
    power plants were in operation, they were of no use for powering land or
    air vehicles.  This is why the cost of heavy equipment such as troop
    carriers, artillery, missiles, trucks, tanks, and submarines, not to mention
    the cost of the [newer] types of heavy weapons, was constantly on the rise,
    [though in fact] the troop carriers [would soon have] no one to transport
    and before long the artillery would have no one to shell.
    This final phase of the military's gigantomania in weaponry gave way to a
    period of microminiaturization under the banner of artificial
    nonintelligence."

    "Oddly enough, it was only in 2040 that the informationists, cipher
    theorists, and other experts expressed surprise at how their predecessors
    could have been so blind for so long, struggling to create artificial
    intelligence.  After all, for the overwhelming majority of tasks performed
    by people in both blue and white collar jobs, intelligence was not
    necessary.  What was necessary?  A command of the situation, skill, care,
    and enterprise.  All these qualities are found in insects.
    A wasp of the Sphecidae family finds herself a cricket and injects into its
    nervous system a poison that paralyzes but does not kill.  Next she digs a
    burrow in the sand, sets her victim beside it, enters the burrow to make
    sure that it is usable -- free of dampness or ants -- then drags the
    cricket inside, deposits her eggs in it, and flies off to repeat the
    process.  The wasp's larva will feed on the living body of the cricket
    until the larva changes into a pupa.  The wasp thus displays an excellent
    command of the situation in the choice of victim and the anesthetic
    procedure she performs on it; skill in preparing an enclosure for it;
    care in checking the enclosure to see that conditions are suitable for her
    offspring; and enterprise, without which this whole series of operations
    could never have been carried through.
    The wasp may have enough nerve tissue to drive a truck from a port to a
    distant city or to guide a transcontinental rocket.  It is only that its
    nervous system was programmed by natural evolution for completely different
    tasks."

    "Successive generations of information theorists and computer scientists
    had labored in vain to imitate the functions of the human brain in
    computers; stubbornly they ignored a mechanism a million times simpler than
    the brain, incredibly small, and remarkably reliable in its operation.
    Not artificial intelligence, but artificial instinct should have been
    simulated for programming at the outset.  Instinct appeared almost a billion
    years earlier than intelligence -- clear proof that it is easier to
    produce."

    (to be continued)

    Message: 64934
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: New $tatus user!
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 21:40:04

    Hey Guys, Please welcome Gordon Little to the club...  He got $tatus!
    I just wish I had picked up my mail from the P.O. Box Saturday instead of
    tonight.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=* CLIFF!

    Message: 64935
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/OT
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 21:58:53

    But Christ is considered by Christians to be the Messiah, and I certainly
    hope you aren't going to tell me that the Old Testament doesn't contain any
    Messianic prophecies. It doesn't mention Jesus by name, but it certainly
    prophecies who the Messiah was to be.

    I notice that you avoided my question entirely, and rather than try and
    venture an answer, you decided instead to engage in Christian-bashing.

    Again, I ask: There are definite prophecies concerning the Messiah. How
    could the Roman government know enough about the Talmud to concoct a story
    using every Messianic prophecy ever made?

    You were the one that posted your personal theory on the authors of the New
    Testament. I am asking you to back up your theory with proof.

    Message: 64936
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Religion
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 22:05:33

    Rod, you used to profess yourself to be Christian, and yet you can not
    answer any of these questions for yourself? Pardon me for sounding rude, but
    did you retain anything from your church period?

    By the way, I tried your "atheistic" reality. I got so depressed I almost
    ended up killing myself. (And no, I wasn't magically 'saved' in a bleak
    moment of despair. It seems I fought it every step of the way. Just ask my
    wife. But I started reading the Bible, and it all started to make sense. No
    one pushed me to go to church or read the Bible. In fact, I was given as
    much leeway in the decision to go or not to go as I wanted. God changed me.
    No one else.

    Message: 64937
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Atheist Worship
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 22:07:05

    Interesting concept, Rod. (Assuming you want an "atheist" symbol up there,
    it would mean that the atheists would be free to come in and worship the
    nothing that they believe in.)

    Message: 64938
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on ASU
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 22:11:36

    -- The Indian pictures are not there to support a belief in Indian religion,
    but are more likely there to represent some of Arizona's heritage. They are
    a representation of culture, and the comparison between them and the chapel
    is ridiculous on it's face... (Zak)

    Well, what if one of the administration buildings had a painting of a
    Christian congregation in worship? After all, it wouldn't be there to
    support a belief in Christian religion, but would more likely be there to
    represent some of Arizona's heritage. After all, there were Christians
    around during the founding of the territory. It would be a representation of
    culture.

    And you better believe that the ACLU would be on it quicker than flies on a
    turd.

    Message: 64939
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/'Saved'
    Date: 04/22/90  Time: 23:28:20

    You saved yourself.  Your own will and determination.  Perhaps you were
    inspired by some reading you were doing.  Just as when I am depressed I
    listen to Peter Gabriel and am inspired.

    Message: 64940
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 01:33:36

    As I stated, there is not a person alive that can tell us exactly what
    happened several thousand years ago.  I thought this answered your
    question.  Yes, I have a theory about the origins of the story of Jesus and
    you have a theory that you were created by a real smart guy.  Same
    difference, which theory to believe.  I think mine has more merit after
    having travelled the road you are now on.

    There are many religions that have their roots in a messiah walking on
    water, rising from the dead, being prophesied to come.  They all root from
    our ancient past.  They all belong in a book of myths.  Of course I
    understand that all beliefs except the one you happen to believe in belong
    there but what else is new?

    The only thing you have going for you at present is that the majority of
    people around you at any given time believe basically as you do.  It's no
    wonder things are so screwed up, eh?

    But move to Theran and set up residence, learn the language and then you
    would be the atheist in the camp.  But at least I sincerely tried
    Christianity and saw that it was hollow and without real substance.

    According to the 1990 World Almanac there are 2,093,718,200 people who
    comprise the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Chinese Folk Religionists, Jews
    Sikhs, Shamanists, Confucians, Baha'is, Jains and Shintoists.  There are
    229,711,410 people who are atheists worldwide.  And 866,759,660 people who
    are non-religious in addition to the atheists.  I left out all people of
    the Christian faith including 951,843,360 Roman Catholics.  There is 1
    person who is agnostic/Christian.

    Hell must be a hell of a big place.  I'm proud to be one of those going
    there and I find comfort in knowing where I will spend my eternity.  I take
    heart in knowing that if I were to die this night that I will spend all
    eternity in a place of fire and brimstone serving my master day & night,
    amen.

    Of course Christians believe that Jesus is the messiah, duh!  Your text
    book tells you so.  I wouldn't suspect that you thought Pee Wee Herman was
    the one you should worship although I think you'd be on a higher shelf with
    him.

    Reading the OT is like going to Madame Rose.  She deals in generalities
    that can be taken in a thousand different ways and believe you me, she
    counts on that.  For instance, many religionists of the Christian
    persuasion say such things as:  "He is coming soon."  Sure, that's easy to
    say especially since "soon" can be half of forever and then some.  It is
    only the more idiotic of the lot who give an exact date and then have to
    make revisions.  I'll bet their collection 'take' goes WAY DOWN after that,
    yes?

    If the OT prophecies who the messiah was to be then how come multi-millions
    don't agree that it does?  Huh?

    Christianity is a cult just like Jim Jones' organization except your group
    doesn't want your life, only your money or your obedience in inaction or
    specific reaction.

    I'm not Christian bashing, believe me.  It is like a brother that you have
    who has gone astray, say he sits all day and does lip flips with his
    finger.  Well, you want to help him, right?  So do I Daryl, so do I.

    We need a more sane world, not one of disorganized sheep waiting for
    something called the Rapture or any of that other crap.

    Yes, I did retain something from my church period, it is this:  All I gotta
    do is believe that Jesus the Christ was the true son of the Big Guy who
    created all us imbiciles, then and only then will I, after I shed my flesh,
    go directly to heaven without passing GO.  I will not collect the $200
    because I will not need it.  But all of my earthly enemies will go to the
    other place along with at least 2 billion others, who by the way are
    flooding into the gates of hell on a continuum, right this second in fact.
    Thank God for such a large universe, eh?  I sometime stay awake at night
    and wonder just how large hell must be.  Does it comprise half or more of
    the whole, Hmmmmmmmmmm?  Gee, that's a hard one but it is not for me to
    wonder because I won't even be aware of their gnashing of teeth eternally,
    I'll be too damn busy with my ole harp.  Amen.

    I too tried atheist reality and found myself starting to live and also to
    accept everyone from all walks as a brother or sister.  So, you cannot
    handle a universe that was not specifically manufactured for a reason.  You
    can only accept a universe that demands the acceptance of a son of the head
    honcho?  Its gotta have a story line, no filling in the blanks, no creating
    your own, just go along with the play.  Interesting.  There must be a good
    reason that you are a follower, probably something your parents did to you
    while raising you.

    Lastly, I have no need or desire for an atheist symbol.  I cannot think of
    a good reason for one.        -Rod