### Apollo BBS Archive - June 28, 1991

    Mail from Melissa Dee
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 18:43:22

    OH, that's right.  Katrina.  I guess since I haven't seen her, I didn't
    register her into my brain.  Rosy looks a lot like Melody did the last time
    I saw her.
    Glad your teeth are better.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Mark Adkins came up with Katrina's name.  I liked the name and thought it
     2:would make him feel better.
     3:
     4:I am an animal.
     5:                                Rod

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 7473
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Question?
    Subject: BIO SIG
    Date: 06/24/91  Time: 09:59:57

            Is anyone else going to get their BIO written and posted?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

                                                    Please... sniff!

    Message: 7474
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Kars / Automotive
    Subject: Cuda $ Paint!!!!!
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:35:43

            Gadds!   I went to the automotive paint store... Just like I did in
    the 60's and early 70's when I painted cars.  However, there was a BIG
    difference this time.  Back then I could paint a car for about $50.00 in
    paint...  Maybe $75.00 for a two tone or stripes.  Well, I got my primer and
    reducer,  My base color 'Charger White' and reducer and hardner, My second
    color 'Charger Gold' for the stripes that go over the top of the Cuda, and
    more hardner.  Then the finish 'Clear-Coat' and hardner....

                            Total..... $375.40

                                    THUD, off the stool!

            I paid it, now I am commited....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S.  I have been real busy working on my Cuda and do NOT have the time to
    read all posts... (last few days)  I read some...  where I see my name
    mostly.   I hope Cubby Billy is on the job.

    Message: 7475
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Kars / Automotive
    Subject: Radiators
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:50:32

            Poor James Hawley's Van...  Just a huffing and puffing steam....
    The over flow bottle full of dark brown.... MUD?  Anyways I pulled the
    thermostat (180 degree) and plunked it into hot water bringing it up past
    the 180 to 212 degree point, and that little sucker did not budge.  It would
    not open up, so replacement was needed.   Then found the block plug and got
    it cleaned out and pumped lots of water though till the dark brown vanished
    and it ran clear.  Did the same with the radiator and pulled the overflow
    bottle so the mud could be removed.

            Replaced plugs and added one gallon of anti-freeze coolant and 3
    quarts of distilled water and off we went on a Lock-Smithing job on Union
    Hills and 40th street ....  Happy to say, van ran cool, needle (he has a
    temp gauge) was right where it oughta be.

            People...take care of your radiators...  Flush them out and replace
    your coolant now and then though out your vehicles life!  You SHOULD use
    anti-Freeze-Coolent even here in the Arizona desert.  It raises the boiling
    point, and it also keeps your water pump lubricated.

            Now, back to the Cuda.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 7476
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: While Cliff's Away
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:38:29

    > I have been real busy working on my Cuda and do NOT have the
    > time to read all posts... (last few days)  I read some...
    > where I see my name mostly.   I hope Cubby Billy is on the job.

    Huh?

    Message: 7477
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Kars / Automotive
    Subject: Radiators
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 10:06:52

    I saw some strange stuff in my coolant when I replaced a bunch of hoses, so
    I want to do a backflush soon.

    Message: 7478
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peter Petrisko
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 14:35:17

            As to the POT being deadly and as to the existance of data to
    support such a claim.  Well, I was reading Sandy's books when she was taking
    the Drug classes at GCC.  Also some of the data came from talking to doctors
    on the subject.... they are more qualified then you Peter...or Rod.  What I
    had posted in the PUBlic board was based on what I REALLY found out from
    these sources.  I am VERY busy now and really don't want to waste my time
    looking up stuff you are only going to dispute.  I could care less if you
    smoke the stuff or not.   If you are not interested in my findings, fine!

            The people who choose to take drugs because they can't handle every
    day life are animals.  The people who think and choose wisely avoiding the
    lies of drugs are humans....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 7479
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Kars / Automotive
    Subject: CLIFF/Paint
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 15:56:42

      I saw a nice Impala SS convertible that a guy was restoring up in Superior
    recently. He did his own candy apple red paint with clear coats over it. It
    was very impressive and he said he had $750 in materials in it.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 7480
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Kars / Automotive
    Subject: Candy Apple
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:44:34

            IS more costly then my Charger White by far.  My Charger Gold paint
    was quite expensive for only One Quart.  He also may have added in the costs
    of Bond, sand paper, tape and other items.  $750 for doing it yourself seems
    a little steep even for Candy Apple.

            By the way Dean, how is your T-Bird comming?  What you working on
    now?   I found a 390 distributer and I have it all rebuilt and ready for my
    friend...  You may keep yours now!

            Maybe an Apollo Car Show is instore some day.  Dean's T-Bird, Nick's
    Vett, Ann's Vet, Sandi Marlin's Falcon, Michael James's BMW, Mike Carter's
    rubber band powerd Ford and of course, Bob Thornburgs wild Mopar!
    Whoops... My Cuda and SysOp Charger....  I am sure I missed someone?
    A show and tell GT for those of us interest in cars.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 7481
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/pot
    Date: 06/29/91  Time: 01:39:54

    If every doctors opinion is taken as true the conflict alone would be enough
    to wreck someones mind.

    Government paid doctors are given an opinion to publish.  If they don't
    publish that opinion then they don't get paid, their house is taken away and
    they become homeless.

    Every now and then someone has the balls to tell the truth.  But this truth
    is not carried by the popular news media as if it were the government would
    pull their license and they would not get paid.  They would lose their
    houses and be homeless.

    People die and are made ill by aspirin.  There has never been a documented
    death from the plant marijuana.  The reason it is illegal is political
    rather than it being a health threat.  If health threats were illegal then I
    can easily tally 50 things that would be outlawed and each of those items
    are more harmful than pot.

                                            Rod

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C
    Press  to abort

    Message: 1856
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Smoking article
    Date: 06/24/91  Time: 07:32:57

    Just wanted to mention there was a very SMALL article in the paper the other
    day that stated a study in the Netherlands found out that cigarette smoking
    decreased the risk of Alzimer's disease and not only that, the more you
    smoked daily, the better off you were about not getting it!! They also said
    that smoking may offer some protection from Parkinson's disease!!

    Makes me wonder how big this article would have been if the studies showed
    smoking put you at a greater risk to GET Alzimers. (Sarcastic smirk!)
                               *>>> ANN O. <<<*
    P.S. I also noticed that the marijuana vote here - that MORE then half the
    people of Apollo wanted it legalized.

    Message: 1857
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/25/91  Time: 05:46:37

     What the article probably failed to state was the thought that Alzheimer's
    is a problem of aging, and most heavy smokers probably never get old enough
    for it to be a problem. (another sarcastic smirk)

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 76129
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean on booth
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:20:51

            You will know it is from a phone booth before you answer... if you
    decide to even answer....  Bad guy will never know....
            Funny it works well where tried, and jet you insist it won't.  I
    have already seen the system thanks to Mr Zagar.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 76130
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/parenting
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 02:25:40

    We found with our daughter that spanking wasn't necessary.  Oh, Jane did
    give her a swat or two on the bottom when she was quite small and did
    something especially annoying, but it was an extremely rare event.  I never
    did.  What is interesting is that the once or twice I got *really* angry
    about something she did and actually *shouted* at her, I got a very quick
    (and positive) reaction -- every bit as effective as a parent might expect
    from actually spanking a kid!  But perhaps other kids get inured to yelling.

    You mention a method somewhere between the "old" and the "new" way of
    raising children.  I wonder if it hasn't been a large part of the problem
    that some parents fell into a gap between the two methods.  Some people
    characterize these methods in terms of whether you spank a kid or whether
    you don't.  But you can't produce a new method of raising kids just by
    taking old methods and subtracting spanking.  Not an effective method,
    anyway.  Kids, like everybody else, *will* push the limits of what they can
    do (which in general is a positive human trait, but also causes contention).
    If you're not going to spank a kid, there has to be some other sanction to
    use.

    There are plenty of things that can be done, mainly the withdrawal of
    objects or privileges.  One method that's especially effective is "time out"
    -- if the kid isn't behaving, you immediately put him in his room or some
    other isolated place for a time.  One advantage of this method compared with
    spanking is that it gives "time out" to both the parents and the kid.

    It gives the *kid* an opportunity to cool off and think more calmly about
    what he's done, and whether it was a good idea or not.  Spanking on the
    other hand imposes a temporary overload -- it heats the situation up instead
    of cooling it down.

    My feeling about spanking is that it tends to teach physical attack as a
    first resort, rather than a last resort, to problem solving.  Kids absorb
    this lesson, and often use it later.  And spanking has a limited life.  You
    may have behavioral problems with a sixteen-year-old son, but if he's six
    foot one and 190 pounds, it's a bit difficult to spank him.  You have to
    resort to other means of conflict resolution; so why not start practicing
    other means of discipline as early as possible?  No, you can't pick the guy
    up and put him in his room either, but there are other sanctions you can
    use.  Most important, if there has been a friendly and honest parent-child
    relationship, the kid will be motivated to want to continue it.  But if the
    parent always kept the kid under his thumb in a hostile and dictatorial
    manner, there isn't the same relationship for the kid to want to preserve.

    Parents often report trouble when kids reach their teen years, and we all
    know some of the causes.  Young adults have an inbuilt urge to want
    independence at this time.  Sex is a new force that requires new learning to
    deal with -- and it isn't helped if the parents themselves have difficulty
    around sexual issues.  Undesirable peer pressures are a menace.  And so on.

    Still, I wonder if a lot of parent-child relationships don't break down at
    this time because the *only* method of getting peace in the home was to push
    the kid around physically.  Suddenly, the kid's too big to do that with any
    more.  And there's nothing else effective to replace it with, if there was
    never an attempt to develop a better way of conflict resolution.  All in
    all, I'm convinced that whether a kid was raised successfully doesn't depend
    much on whether or not the kid got an occasional swat.  It does depend on
    how the parents handled childraising in general.

    Maybe kids are so different as to make it difficult for some parents to get
    away without spanking.  I won't argue about that because I can't claim
    experience of lots of other kids.  But I will say that we've had good
    results with our daughter.  The best test is a comparison with other kids in
    an environment outside the home -- i.e., school -- and her teachers have
    noted that she's friendly and polite and never a discipline problem -- which
    is a lot more than they'd say for a few of the other kids.  Our daughter's
    present teacher (first grade) comes from Louisiana, and she is quite
    traditional about the importance of good manners.  She said quite frankly
    that the lack of manners in some of the kids horrifies her.  I went to one
    of these classroom parties they occasionally have in school -- "temporary
    room father" if you like -- and handed out some candy to all of the kids.
    This was my daughter's class, and only she and one other girl bothered to
    say "thank you".

    I think good manners is more than a superficial convention.  It's a
    manifestation of an underlying respect for people; and it's that attitude
    that you want to teach by demonstrating it.

    There are two effects of spanking: one, it inflicts pain (which can vary
    from negligible to severe), and two, it's an instant and clear expression of
    disapproval.  It's the pain part that can degenerate into abuse and cause
    damage if overdone; but some clear means of expressing disapproval *is*
    essential in childraising.  I get the impression that some parents went
    wrong in that they not only avoided spanking, but did their best to avoid
    expressing any disapproval of a child's behavior under any circumstances.
    This is bound to fail.  It isn't honest, for a start, because it doesn't
    express the parents' real feelings, opinions, or needs.  It gives no
    guidance to a child in how to get on with other people.  And no doubt some
    of these parents gritted their teeth and tolerated what the child did until
    they couldn't stand it any more, then got ticked off and yelled or spanked
    the kid; then they felt guilty for doing things "wrong" so they tried to
    make up for it by spoiling the kid.  Guilt in parents isn't very useful.

    I agree with everything Roger said about the need for consistency, and the
    need for action.  You might be easy-going and genuinely not mind something a
    child does that other parents might find objectionable.  But if you *don't*
    like what the child is doing, it's no good whining "no, no" in a wimpy
    ineffectual voice and *letting the child do it anyway*.

    Spock himself had a lovely example of actively tempting a two-year-old to
    disobedience: "Now remember, Susie, don't go near the radio..."  If you
    don't take action, you're inviting the child to experiment with how far you
    can be ignored and manipulated.

    With respect to day care, I think there are pros as well as cons.  I'm also
    convinced that the pros (or the need for them) wouldn't exist at all if we
    hadn't lost the advantages of the close community and the extended family.
    In the old way of doing things, a mother would raise her children at home,
    but (a) she wouldn't get bored and stressed out (and maybe take it out on
    the kids) because she wouldn't be *isolated* in the home all day; (b) the
    kids would benefit from relationships with other adults who shared casually
    in caring for them; and (c) there would be other kids to play with --
    especially important for an only child.  Day care, while not ideal, does at
    least compensate for some ills of modern life, at the expense of separating
    mother from child.  (Quite likely you were happier staying at home than some
    less imaginative women because you always found something creative to do.)

    Our daughter was in family day care since she was three months old, and it
    has worked out well.  I think day care can work well if it is seen as an
    extension of the family environment.  Thus, I would far rather see *young*
    children cared for in an informal family setting than in anything resembling
    an institution.

    It's crucial to have a close relationship between the parents and the
    caregivers.  The parents must take responsibility for ensuring that the
    caregiver's attitude and approach to childraising is suitable.  (I
    personally rejected one woman out of hand for a long list of subtle but
    important reasons.)  Just as important, I think the relationship with a
    caregiver should be long-term.  It's not fair to shuttle a child from pillar
    to post.  There ought to be a sense of continuity and security.

    We've been quite lucky in the day care providers we've found.  The first
    woman looked after our daughter for the better part of two years -- from the
    time she was three months old until they moved to Florida.  She had a
    wonderful, bright personality and was excellent in every way.

    This is why I object strongly to the way the Democrats typically go about
    pushing "availability" of day care.  While the effect of their proposals
    would be to put more children in day care, the financial provisions favor
    day care "institutions" at the expense of private relationships among
    people.  If a mother wants to or must work instead of caring for her
    children at home, the next best solution is usually to have another family
    member -- say an aunt or grandmother -- look after them.  Yet the proposals
    I've seen give no financial incentive whatever for this kind of arrangement.

    Message: 76136
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/housewife
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 02:33:01

    I've heard of other women getting the kind of reaction you got to
    "admitting" that they were housewives.  What do I say?  *Was* she genuinely
    surprised that a "mere" housewife was so competent in several ways?
    Possibly, but I think that's making excuses for her rudeness and hostility.
    It seems significant that she made that kind of comment when you made a good
    shot -- as if she was annoyed because you did something better than she did,
    and had to reassure herself by pointing out to everyone that in some *other*
    way you were really inferior to her -- by her warped standards, at least.

    This poor woman is either brainwashed by her peers and incapable of thinking
    for herself, or else she's a slave to her need for "status" -- measured
    again by somebody else's standards.  She thinks that having a job that she
    gets paid for makes her "better" than somebody else -- more independent, or
    cleverer (a myth that you upset her by shattering). or worth more money, or
    something.  No doubt she also thinks that wearing particular clothes or
    driving a particular car also makes one person better than another.  Valuing
    one's wellbeing solely in terms of money is a major mistake, because it
    totally ignores the *basic* question "how much satisfaction of all kinds am
    I getting out of life?"

    Much of what's wrong with society is caused by people wasting their lives
    chasing after illusory "status" needs.  When most of us can afford more
    possessions than we ever could before, why do most couples now need two
    salaries to survive?  Mainly I think this is driven by greed.

    I don't mean that *everybody* is greedy, but I do think that when large
    numbers of people are greedy, their greed has a knock-on effect for
    everyone else.  Suppose lots of women go out to work full time when they
    don't need to; they just like lots of money -- much of which goes on items
    to show off with rather than just to enjoy.  OK, now the couple can afford
    more possessions.  But now they can also afford to pay more for basic items
    that everybody needs.  So they drive the price up.  Some basic needs,
    especially housing, are always in limited supply.  More money chasing the
    same limited supply can only make such items less affordable for everybody
    else.  So all the *other* people are forced to work harder, or to go to work
    when they didn't before, just to keep up with those basic necessities.

    There's not much you can do to change the thinking of women like this one
    you met.  They insist on trying to play one-upmanship in subtle or not-so-
    subtle ways because that's their game.  And they hate it when they lose.  I
    suppose you could have asked her to explain to you -- because you've "never
    quite been able to understand it" -- what it is that people get out of a job
    working to a fixed schedule for somebody else, when you get far more fun and
    creativity out of the things you do at home.

    I hope you told her you were an artist and you'd had your work published in
    magazines...  No, on second thoughts it's better to leave her with a few
    scraps of ego to cling to.  Never kick people when they're down.

    Message: 76138
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie!
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:30:21

     I don't know about you, gal! Trying to talk to you about something like
    this is like talking to a wall.
    Okay. Let's run this by another way.
     When I speak of child abuse, I am not talking about the occasional
    spanking, or discipline administered with equal amounts of love. I am
    talking abot immersing an infants privates into scalding water. I am talking
    about hot curling irons shoved into infant vaginas and rectums. I am talking
    about cigarette burns intentionally inflicted on various parts of very small
    anatomies. I am talking about babies tied (or chained) to beds while parents
    go out partying. I am talking about kids locked in dark closets for hours,
    or even days. Horrible? Gross? Unthinkable? You bet it is! But, dear lady,
    IT HAPPENS! Someplace, every single day! What's your answer? Lock the
    miscreant parents up after the fact? Put them in jail and throw the key
    away? Take the kids from them and make them wards of the state? All those
    things are being done now, and they have not reduced the incidence of child
    abuse one iota. What's so wrong in your mind about PREVENTION? What's the
    matter with education that prepares young prospective parents for the most
    awesome responsibility that they will ever face in their lives? Many more
    members of the younger generation will become parents over the next few
    years than will ever become bankers, sports figures, musicians, doctors or
    whatever. It seems to me that more stress should be placed on the real facts
    of life than on specialized education in career fields. We choose what we
    want to be, careerwise. We become parents by performing natural biological
    functions. Educate! Educate! Educate!

    Message: 76139
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul Carelli
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:35:27

     I wasn't implying anything in my message on the questionable "work of art".
    I was merely describing it, and giving my opinions on it as well as on what
    I consider to be a warped mind that "created" it. I can't look into the mind
    of the "artist", nor would I care to.

    Message: 76140
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:37:21

    "I'll probably be the first Christian fed to the lions when the Anti-Christ
    takes over."
     We won't be here, brother!

    Message: 76141
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger #76101
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:50:33

    You sound like you were/are a good father/husband! My first husband, the
    children's father didn't lift a hand - he thought all that stuff woman's
    work and beneath him as a man. Even when I was sick - he made a mess and I
    had to get well to clean it up - it waited for me! Needless to say, I am not
    married to him any longer. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76142
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on tea
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:53:20

    Thanks for telling use the real
    British way to make tea. I see what you mean about a tea bag - what it looks
    like.
    BTW - since tea leaves grounds - is it proper to strain it or is that a 'no
    no'? How about sun tea?*>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76143
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cat on wife
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:57:11

    Bonnie is a housewife? No kidding? (snicker) -=*) PEACHES (*=-

    Message: 76144
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Doggy on gas
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:06:38

    I guess I should have said we know just about how much gas it takes to get
    to Prescott and back in the Vette - Ditto Congress. When we saw that we were
    barely going to make it TO Prescott in 3/4th of a tank, we knew something
    was wrong, plus, it was missing so very badly. On my dashboard, the gas gage
    is digital - with little lines depicting the gas used. On the way back
    after filling up, it didn't hardly move from the top because we were going
    downhill most of the way. Also, on the dashboard is a read out of the
    miles-per-gallon at any given time - on the way up there we were getting 9
    miles per gallon. We should have been getting 25 or more going uphill!
    Vettes are not really gas hogs, especially on the road and on the way home
    we were getting 28 - 32 miles per gallon. So you see.....! *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76145
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on abuse
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:26:02

    I too believe in education, but I still ask you what are you going to tell
    the prospective parents about abuse? Yes, I know these horriable things go
    on and so do the prospective parents via the media. Outside of telling them
    "don't abuse their children" - what else is there to this 'education' you
    are professing? Do you feel there is a whole school year that sould be
    devoted to this education? Several years? Then what? Do you suppose that
    wil make a real difference? It's like Driver's school - you can teach a
    person all there is to know about driving, but it won't make them obey the
    laws, speed limit any better! You say there is a real need - you say we
    should educate - you talk of the atrocities - yet, you really have not any
    solutions, just words. You think I'm nit picking? Well I'm not. I would
    really like to know what you think should be taught about this problem.
    What the heck, if you were more clear, I might agree with you!
                          *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76146
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on raising
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:42:20

    With my three kiddies - I had to handle each differently. My first daughter,
    she needed routine spankings and she got them. My middle son you could beat
    bloody and it wouldn't have done a bit of good - but take away a prized toy
    or put him on restrictions ......!!! My youngest daughter - she was so good,
    she didn't need any spankings or discipline. (Where she came from I haven't
    the foggiest! Ha)
    Re: spankings in general - I believe in them when the child is first walking
    up to the point when restrictions can be used just as effectively - 5 -6
    years depending on the 'crime'! I've spanked my first daughter when she was
    10 because she deserved a spanking. It was, fortunately, the last time. You
    can't spank a teenager and expect to have harmony in the home! I have
    problems with all of this because of my first husband - he didn't believe in
    spankings - he believed in 'beatings with a belt'! Except for a very few, I
    put a stop to that fast, but he was considered 'from the old school'! B.S. I
    say - he had a mean streak is all! It wouldn't have been considered child
    abuse way back then though. In fact, he was considered a good father in his
    circle. Again I say "B.S." My mother beat me pretty regularly and I survived
    and for the most part, deserved all I got! She used a belt too. Another
    thing she did was slap my mouth when I said an improper thing. I don't know
    how good that was but throughout my years on up to a few years ago when it
    became so common to swear - I didn't even say damn! I hear kids under 10
    using the foulest language now. Not being a psychiatrist I don't know if
    that's good or bad, but I didn't do it and got slapped when I did - nice
    stinging one's to the mouth area! *>>> ANN O. <<<

    Message: 76147
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on woman
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:54:28

    I don't know what motivated that woman we were shooting pool with - she
    seemed like she wanted us to be friends, yet she made these comments.
    Before we started shooting, she anounced she was quite good at pool and
    bragged she was hard to beat etc. etc. - typical stuff I've heard a million
    times from both men and women. I broke and didn't make a ball, she made two
    and missed and I run the table. She stood there with her mouth open but then
    started insinuating that I had a lucky game and she challenged the table
    again and again and again and ......! This person could not play good pool
    what-so-ever - drunk or sober! She must have had a good night somewhere in
    her past and it gave her the illusion she could shoot good! She was also
    bragging how long she had played - which was 4 years and she ask me how long
    I had played and I told her about 30 years and her mouth flew open! No, I
    didn't tell her about my published art work - I got my revenge on the table
    all evening. She didn't win a game!

    What is really puzzling about all of this - we haven't shot pool in almost a
    year and I played over five hours that night and only lost one game!

    Talk about HER bragging - I think this entire post is one long brag on my
    part! Ha ha. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76148
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Felix/nomeansno
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:10:08

    I suspect that parent is going through the motions. It's interesting to hear
    what teen-agers have to say about parents. One of the items high on their
    list is for parents to set limits and stick with them. (or no means no)

    OTOH, the parent who means maybe when they say yes is just as bad. Saying
    yes and then saying no can lead to the kid sneaking around the parents
    because they never know what the parent means.

    Message: 76149
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/spanking
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:20:08

    When our son hit our daughter, I was stopped short when I realized that
    spanking would be an ineffectual way of punishing such acts. "Why can't I
    hit my sister?" Ans: "Hitting is wrong" "Now bend over while I give you a
    swat."

    Message: 76150
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Caller I.D.
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 14:23:25

            I sure hope Gordon and Dean are not implying that " I will sell or
    give out the numbers of those who call Apollo BBS "  I can assure you that
    this will be private!  The caller log will be auto deleted after 48 hours.
    ONLY if there is a problem will the numbers involved be printed out.  Such
    as someone trying to break into another $tatus members password...  ETC.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 76151
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Phones
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:12:31

      How will you know the call is from a phone booth, and what good will it do
    you to know? Are you going to refuse to answer any call that comes from one?
    I don't believe that this caller-id scheme is going to be the great cure-all
    you claim.
      Of course I wasn't implying that Apollo would become a source of phone
    number distribution. You already have my number because I want you to have
    it. That is not the case with those who would be able to compile lists of
    numbers with caller-id{
      Caller-id will probably be pretty easy to sidestep for anyone who wants to
    do mischief, and will amount to extra expense and/or loss of privacy for
    everyone else.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 76152
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:55:47

            Where did I say it was a 'Cure-all' ???????

            You can't side step it as you have been thinking you can? When a
    call comes from a phone booth you will see the words 'phone-booth' on the
    second line.   I do not think you have been paying attention to the news on
    Caller I.D.

            As for phone numbers, even if you had an unpublished, unlisted
    number, I could get it from a good friend that works in the phone company in
    a computer depatment.  There are other ways...get it from a police computer
    in a cruiser.  Why do you think they are going to buy your number from a
    business, when all you got to do is get a free phone book?

            Now, go to line one and answer, where did I say it was a 'cure-all'?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 76153
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 17:49:52

      In June 1894, workers at the Pullman Palace Car Company
    went on strike.  One can get an idea of the kind of support
    they got, mostly from the immediate vicinity of Chicago, in
    the first months of the strike, from a list of contributions
    put together by the Reverend William H. Carwardine, a
    Methodist pastor in the company town of Pullman for three
    years (he was sent away after he supported the strikers):
         Typographical Union #16
         Painters and Decorators Union #147
         Carpenters' Union No. 23
         Thirty-fourth Ward Republican Club
         Grand Crossing Police
         Hyde Park Water Department
         Picnic at Gardener's Park
         Milk Dealer's Union
         Hyde Park Liquor Dealers
         Fourteenth Precinct Police Station
         Swedish Concert
         Chicago Fire Department
         German Singing Society
         Cheque from Anaconda, Montana
      The Pullman strikers appealed to a convention of the
    American Railway Union for support:
           Mr. President and Brothers of the American Railway
         Union.  We struck at Pullman because we were without
         hope.  We joined the American Railway Union because it
         gave us a glimmer of hope.  Twenty thousand souls, men,
         women and little ones, have their eyes turned toward
         this convention today, straining eagerly though dark
         despondency for a glimmer of the heaven-sent message
         you alone can give us on this earth....
           You all must know that the proximate cause of our
         strike was the discharge of two members of our
         grievance committee....  Five reductions in wages....
         The last was the most severe, amounting to nearly
         thirty per cent, and rents had not fallen....
           Water which Pullman buys from the city at 8 cents a
         thousand gallons he retails to us at 500 percent
         advance....  Gas which sells at 75 cents per thousand
         feet in Hyde Park, just north of us, he sells for
         $2.25.  When we went to tell him our grievances he said
         we were all his "children."...
           Pullman, both the man and the town, is an ulcer on
         the body politic.  He owns the houses, the
         schoolhouses, and churches of God in the town he gave
         his once humble name....
           And thus the merry war--the dance of skeletons bathed
         in human tears--goes on, and it will go on, brothers,
         forever, unless you, the American Railway Union, stop
         it; end it; crush it out.
      The American Railway Union responded.  It asked its
    members all over the country not to handle Pullman cars.
    Since virtually all passenger trains had Pullman cars, this
    amounted to a boycott of all trains--a nationwide strike.
    Soon all traffic on the twenty-four railroad lines leading
    out of Chicago had come to a halt.  Workers derailed freight
    cars, blocked tracks, pulled engineers off trains if they
    refused to cooperate.
      The General Managers Association, representing the
    railroad owners, agreed to pay two thousand deputies, sent
    in to break the strike.  But the strike went on.  The
    Attorney General of the United States, Richard Olney, a
    former railroad lawyer, now got a court injunction against
    blocking trains, on the legal ground that the federal mails
    were being interfered with.  When the strikers ignored the
    injunction, President Cleveland ordered federal troops to
    Chicago.  On July 6, hundreds of cars were burned by
    strikers.
      The following day, the state militia moved in, and the
    Chicago *Times* reported on what followed:
           Company C. Second Regiment ... disciplined a mob of
         rioters yesterday afternoon at Forty-ninth and Loomis
         Streets.  The police assisted and ... finished the job.
         There is no means of knowing how many rioters were
         killed or wounded.  The mob carried off many of its
         dying and injured.
    A crowd of five thousand gathered.  Rocks were thrown at the
          Militia, and the command was given to fire.
         ...To say that the mob went wild is but a weak
         expression....  The command to charge was given....
         From that moment only bayonets were used....  A dozen
         men in the front line of rioters received bayonet
         wounds....
           Tearing up cobble stones, the mob made a determined
         charge.... the word was passed along the line for each
         officer to take care of himself.  One by one, as
         occasion demanded, they fired point blank at the
         crowd....  The police followed with their clubs.  A
         wire fence inclosed the track.  The rioters had
         forgotten it; when they turned to fly they were caught
         in a trap.
           The police were not inclined to be merciful, and
         driving the mob against the barbed wires clubbed it
         unmercifully....  The crowd outside the fence rallied
         to the assistance of the rioters....  The shower of
         stones was incessant....
           The ground over which the fight had occurred was like
         a battlefield.  The men shot by the troops and police
         lay about like logs....
      In Chicago that day, thirteen people were killed,
    fifty-three seriously wounded, seven hundred arrested.
    Before the strike was over, perhaps thirty-four were dead.
    With fourteen thousand police, militia, troops in Chicago,
    the strike was crushed.  Debs was arrested for contempt of
    court, for violating the injunction that said he could not
    do or say anything to carry on the strike.  He told the
    court: "It seems to me that if it were not for resistance to
    degrading conditions, the tendancy of our whole civilization
    would be downward; after a while we would reach a point
    where there would be no resistance, and slavery would come."
      Debs, in court, denied he was a socialist.  But during his
    six months in prison, he studied socialism and talked to
    fellow prisoners who were socialists.  Later he wrote: "I
    was to be baptized in Socialism in the roar of conflict ...
    in the gleam of every bayonet and the flash of every rifle
    the class struggle was revealed....  This was my first
    practical struggle in Socialism."
      Two years after he came out of prison, Debs wrote in the
    *Railway Times*:
           The issue is Socialism versus Capitalism.  I am for
         Socialism because I am for humanity.  We have been
         cursed with the reign of gold long enough.  Money
         constitutes no proper basis of civilization.  The time
         has come to regenerate society--we are on the eve of a
         universal change.
      Thus, the eighties and nineties saw bursts of labor
    insurrection, more organized than the spontaneous strikes of
    1877.  There were now revolutionary movements influencing
    labor struggles, the ideas of socialism affecting labor
    leaders.  Radical literature was appearing, speaking of
    fundamental changes, of new possibilities for living.

    Message: 76159
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: A Hymn to Hemp
    Date: 06/28/91  Time: 21:43:16

    Heard from my grandmother
    An old Bible in her attic told
    In the part reserved for family histories
    How one of my ancestors came over on the *Mayflower*
    John Holland, a 13-year-old boy
    Who was swept overboard at night in a storm
    Someone threw a rope over the side into the dark
    and miraculously he caught it
    and was hauled back in,
    "And if he hadn't caught that rope, you wouldn't be here now."
    Thirty years later I realize
    Way back then rope was hemp and so:
    Marijuana saved my life!

                                  - Antler
                                  Whole Earth Review (Spring 1990)

    (I know.  It's no basis for a serious argument, but it's
    cute, timely, and less gruesome than hemp nooses.)

    Message: 76160
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apro/hemp
    Date: 06/29/91  Time: 01:58:57

    So, there is a documented incident of marijuana saving someones life?

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