### Apollo BBS Archive - November 1 - 2, 1989

    Message: 61795       This is me.*********
    Author: Robert Adams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Various
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 13:10:23

    Kim Sue Lia Perkes is the best Religion Editor the Arizona Republic ever
    had.

    Jeff Beck and James Hawley should have a good laugh together and erase all
    the bullcrap from their memory banks.  In the long term it would be better
    for everyone who is concerned, mental health included.

    Whoever said that true freedom of speech is allowed on this particular
    system should wash their mouth out with soap.  It simply does not exist.
    Although it did long ago.

            Rod (sour grapes) Williams

    Message: 61797
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Cliff on MLK
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 14:18:16

    Cliff, I think you're wrong.

        First of all, please tell me, who are the blacks that you think are more
    deserving of a holiday than Martin Luther King Jr.?  Name some names.

       Secondly, please substantiate the claim that Martin Luther King Jr. was a
    rapist.  If you can't back yourself up on this statement, please correct
    yourself.

        Third, what makes you think the holiday is a way for whites to feel less
    guilty?  That's a possible explanation (and a very simple-minded one), but
    how can you ignore the other possibilities?  For example, what if instead of
    the holiday being used as a conscience-clearer, it is used as a reminder and
    commemoration of blacks' struggle for freedom?  How can you easily jump to
    the conclusion that there are such shallow motivations as "to make (whites)
    feel less guilty."  That's pretty illogical.  You could also say that
    Christmas is a way to make atheists feel left out, that Labor Day is a way
    to make the unemployed feel guilty, that Arbor Day is a way to make us feel
    less guilty for cutting down thousands of trees, that Mother's and Father's
    Day are ways to make us feel less guilty for neglecting our parents, that
    Easter is a way for us to feel less guilty for abusing rabbits, and that
    Halloween is a way to remind us of our inherently Satanic nature.

    Message: 61798
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: holidays
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 14:35:39

         On the other hand, I think Columbus Day is a stupid holiday.  If Martin
    Luther King Jr. was a man with personal faults, then Christopher Columbus
    was Lucifer.

    (1)  Columbus was not the first to discover America.  Other explorers, such
    as Amerigo Vespucci, beat him to it.

    (2)  Columbus never set a foot on North America.  He did land on Southern
    American soil.  Certainly not someone for the U.S.A. to commemorate.

    (3)  Columbus didn't know he'd found a new land, and probably would not have
    cared.  He was mostly concerned with making money.  He didn't know he'd
    discovered anything special.

    (4)  Columbus collected the "Indians" he found as slaves and abused them.
    He took their gold, and took many of them back with him.  If they didn't
    give him gold or do what he ordered, in many cases he killed or abused them
    (in some instances cutting off hands or arms as punishment).

    --- So why should we have a Columbus holiday?  Because we're too stubborn to
    change a misguided tradition?  Because we're afraid other states won't go
    along with it, and will dislike us?  Hmmm?

    How about a ote on this?  (If one hasn't already been done.)

    Message: 61799
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Adkins and Hawley
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 14:44:27

    Nothing like a rush of ANGER and HOSTILITY to get the blood moving.

    I agree with Cliff and Ann that their posts should be allowed to remain.
    People can always [S]kip, and it's more interesting than much of the other
    discussion going on.  Granted, it may be poor judgment (spelled without an
    "e") for them to go public, but it's their right.

    Message: 61800
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Posts
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 17:03:27

    This whole thing has gone on for so long, that it is better to have
    everything in the open.  50% of the board knows the basics of the story, so
    why only have it in E-mail?

    If this offends anyone, I am truly sorry.

    I may have harmed Mark, but his response was so vehement as for me label him
    insane.

    Message: 61801
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Adkins
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 17:13:09

    I never said I destroyed the tapes.  You told me, "You will destroy those
    tapes, or suffer the consequences".  I have every piece of E-mail and U.S.
    mail that you ever sent me.  I can post them if you wish.

    Of course (as with the tapes) you will just say, "Oh you doctored them, so
    why should we believe you"?

    If only you had a shred of common sense.  You sent multiple copies of most
    of the letters, so doctoring is kind of hard.

    I fell sorry that you are so insecure that you can't even log on under your
    real name.  Of course it is only because 'you don't want to be
    pidgeonholed'.  Almost everyone knows who you are, so why bother?

    Your assumption that I insulted you mother on purpose is ludicrous.  I was
    in incredible pain, and you actually believe that I would insult her.

    I've been told that the more you call an insane person insane the angrier
    they become.  It seems to be true.  You can not have a rational discussion
    with an insane mind.  Mark only has time to stew at home and build up his
    self imposed hatred for me.  It's self destroying and futile.  I feel very
    bad for you.

    Message: 61802
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hawley
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 18:37:43

    First of all, you did tell me you destroyed these tapes.  Second, I never
    accused you of doctoring any mail I sent you; I said that there were
    explicit sexual invitations on the tapes, and if they are no longer there,
    it is because you removed them.

    I logged on using an alias long before this argument, and long before anyone
    knew I was using the bbs.  There are a couple of reasons.  First, due to the
    fact that I am not a status user, anyone can log on under my name and leave
    messages.  This was done shortly after I left Apollo and resigned my status.
     The only way to get around this, short of buying status, is to have my name
    on the blacklist, so to speak.  Thus, no one can use it.
    Second, I wanted my posts to be judged purely on their own merit, not on the
    basis of past associations, or innacurate mental models.  True, at this
    point, that is no longer possible.
    Third, I was not interested in bringing up the subject.  The reason that I
    left Apollo (and stopped using BBSs altogether for a long while) was to
    escape any reminders of your little joke.  This was as much for your benifit
    as for mine.  When I finally decided to start using the board again, it was
    a sure bet that logging on under my own name would start vexatious arguments
    like this one.  Finally, as I explained before, people instinctively look
    for pattern and tend to ignore or misinterpret that which doesn't fit.  This
    was the reason that for a while I used a different alias each visit.  People
    are willing to except different forms of expression from different people,
    but attempt to make uniform different forms from the same person.

    Message: 61803
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hawley
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 18:47:41

    It may be true that calling an insane person "insane" will enrage them.  I'm
    not an expert in this regard, and I don't think you are either.  It is also
    true, however, that unjust, malicious, and injurious labels will make an
    ordinary person angry.
    As for stewing and building up "self-imposed" hatred for you, keep in mind
    that you started this argument with an insulting (and rather silly) shot at
    me.  I was just using the BBS, ignoring you for the most part.  The person
    you insist sits at home rubbing his hands together with malicious glee and
    cackling with insane laughter exists only in your imagination (and even
    there, it is merely a convenient caricature).

    If you were genuine, you would not be attempting to stir up trouble.  Ever
    hear the old saying about letting sleeping dogs lie?

    Message: 61804
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: sysop
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 18:49:55

    It stands to reason, that if I found these tapes offensive and a source of
    grief, I wouldn't want them posted, now doesn't it?  This is a very bad
    idea.

    Message: 61805
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 20:56:16

    Re:  "I have heard the argument that the RIGHT to own and carry arms be
    limited to 'SOME' arms..."

    I think congress should pass a law mandating that everyone has to carry a
    side arm in public.  We wouldn't have to worry about overcrowded prisons or
    feeble corrupt judges.  Law biding citizens could just administer justice on
    the spot as the need arises.

    Message: 61806
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Adams
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 20:57:49

    Re:  "Kim Sue Lia Perkes is the best Religious Editor the Arizona Republic
    ever had."

    That's not saying much.  All of them have been wanting.

    Message: 61807
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 20:59:30

    Re:  "who are the blacks that you think are more
    deserving of a holiday than Martin Luther King Jr."

    George Washington Carver.

    Message: 61808
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/28/89  Time: 21:02:15

    Re:  "So why should we have a Columbus holiday?  Because we're too stubborn
    to change a misguided tradition?  Because we're afraid other states won't go
    along with it, and will dislike us?  Hmmm?"

    So why should we have a MLK holiday?  Because we're too stubborn to change a
    misguided tradition?  Because we're afraid other states won't go along with
    it, and will dislike us?  Hmmm?

    Message: 61809
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo Watergate
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 00:15:48

    Isn't this special?
    We have our own version of watergate, complete with the sleaze factor
    and the politics of mud slinging.
    Amusing.

    Message: 61810
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/freedoms
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 06:28:29

     You made a point I had not considered, concerning the ongoing discussions
    between Hawley and Adkins. THey are exercizing a right none of us can afford
    to lose. I withdraw my request to Cliff, and simply ask Mark and James to
    bury the past, shake hands and live as though today was the first day of the
    rest of your lives. It's painful to all to see two old friends so hostile
    toward each other, whatever the reason. Hatred and bitterness are
    self-destructive, and you are both too valuable for that. Peace?

    Message: 61811
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff!
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 06:38:46

     How soon have you forgotten the many, many posts I have put on this and
    other BBSes concerning the MLK day. I have kissed up to no-one, never in the
    past, and surely not now! I have stated, time and time again, that I felt
    that whoever designated King as the hero of the civil rights movement cold
    have picked someone a lot more acceptable.
     The bigot and racist in this case is the Mormon jerk (I forget his name or
    I would use it instead of his religion to identify him) who is ramrodding
    the repeal of the holiday only to satisfy his own racist leanings. All I
    said was that I refused to sign the Columbus day restoration petition, not
    because I do not sympathize with the Italian community's cause, but because
    they have aligned themselves with that idiot, and have thus painted
    themselves with the same racist, bigot brush.
     As far as the DeConcini recall, I personally do not support it, since I
    have had occasion to use the Senator's office a couple of times, and have
    always been treated with the utmost courtesy and have always gotten results.
    That, to me, is what the man is there for. If you have a cause he has not
    supported, then take him to task for it and find out why. If enough people
    feel the way you do about him, he will not survive the next election. Why go
    to the expense of yet another expensive recall election to do it a little
    quicker?

    Message: 61812
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 06:40:10

     Please accept a carbon copy of my post to Ann on the subject of the
    Hawley/Adkins dispute.

    Message: 61813
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 06:53:50

    RE 61807:  Care to elucidate?

    RE 61808:  What a lame reply.

    Message: 61814
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hawley & Adkins
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 07:20:32

    All I can say is, I have such a boring life, I'm glad I can live vicariously
    through you guys.

    Message: 61815
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto/last
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 08:10:02

    Here again, I doubt you have such a boring life! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61816
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion Editors
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 10:49:28

    Well, the ones before Ms. Perkes may have been wanting, but I find her work
    to be excellent.  I noticed a marked change during the few weeks she was out
    during the summer - and since there was no comment about her absence, I was
    worried that she'd gone to another paper.

    Message: 61817
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/James's life
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 10:50:53

    I suggest you fly to DC to find out just how boring James's life is. The
    high point of his week is to use his key to the Foundation's video room and
    watch silly tapes on the Federal Tax system that were made (with our tax
    money) for showing to high school students.

    Message: 61818
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 14:25:37

    Re:  "RE 61808:  What a lame reply."

    If it is a lame reply when I say it, what do you call it when you say it?

    Message: 61819
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Adkins
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 19:33:14

    You have accused me of all sorts of attrocities.  If I posted a transcript
    of the tapes as requested, it would indeed clear me of all your imagined
    harms.

    Again I NEVER said I destroyed the tape.  You *ordered* me to, but I never
    responded.  And yes, it is best to let mad dogs lie, but you responded to my
    truthful response to your question, and I felt obligated to tell the truth.

    I will think about posting a transcript of the tapes in the next few days.
    I will make them available to the people that have requested them, if I do
    decide to make them available.  I have nothing to hide in this regard.

    Message: 61820
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hawley/Adkins
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 19:59:09

    My deepest apologies, gentlemen.  I forgot that private lives are public
    fodder.  Carry on.

    As for you, Mr. Burkett:  an excellent suggestion.

    HB

    Message: 61821
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 19:59:52

    Sorry I offended your sensibilities by allowing my sensibilities to be
    offended.  Who the hell are YOU to post your opinion about my post?  What,
    do you run this board?

    HB

    Message: 61822
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 21:47:51

         MLK slept with half the women he ever met... Common knowlege back then
    before he died.  Suddenly he is now some sort of hero to the world.  In my
    book he was a trouble maker and got what he deserved!
            There have been many great black people in history.  They did not
    instigate riots and preach morals that they could not live by themselves.
    WE have a MLK day here for political reasons only.  And the MLK day has been
    passed in most states so they can say... "Look what we politicians did for
    you black people"....  Political hog wash to get black votes!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61823
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 22:13:50

            If you feel these tapes are offensive and a source of grief...
    I feel then they should NOT be posted and hope James will not do so.
    I have NEVER heard the tapes... so I did not know.  James made it a point to
    not let me hear them or even to discuss them with me.  A wise choice on his
    part.  I know these have not been played at GT's or are they even talked
    about.  I know from a SysOp's view point...James has tried to halt the
    spread of this info from the start....  You could not see this (Jeff), but
    I know for the most part...James was sincere and did tell the truth.

            I also wish to tell the users, the name of Mark Adkins was locked
    out of use, because some people were logging in under it entering misleading
    posts.  Not because Mark Adkins was a bad user.... On the contrary, I miss
    this intelligent person as a $tatus user.... and even still to this day,
    wish he would reconsider and become a member.

            James has admitted to me the 'JOKE' was in bad taste...and that he
    has learned by it.  Everyone makes a mistake now and then... (And if you ask
    me, James has had more than his share)...  but he meant no harm and just for
    a fleeting moment, thought it was funny!

    Peace!  *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61824
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul...
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 22:32:07

            So, you suggest we let DeConcini go though with his house bill to
    unarm us?   We have tried to confront him...he will not talk to us, as he
    had said his mind was made up.   However...because of the recall, he is now
    considering that his bill may not be acceptable.  I see Paul, you have put a
    $$$ price $$$ on a recall election.  What about the price we paid for our
    rights with BLOOD?   Does that mean anything to you?  Save the dollars and
    spill the blood instead in another 30 years when we finally wake up and go
    get our rights back by force.

            Excuse me, but Mr Mecham has many Black and Hispanic friends...  I
    might even guess.... more then you do!   My brother Bob was seated right
    behind Mr. Mecham during the trial.  (by the way, he was proven innocent of
    all charges...  a FACT you seem to not want to hear or see).  Anyway,
    Brother Bob and his wife told us what was heard at the trial...was not the
    same thing they would read in the paper the next day.  They would not have
    believed it if they were not there.  Mr Mecham was black balled by powers
    you do not understand Paul, but you see Mr Mecham in the light they want you
    to see him.
            I would like to say... I have many Mormon friends...and would never
    label a person by his religion, even if I forgot his name.

                    Tisk tisk..... Pauly!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61825
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on carbon
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 22:35:01

            I am pleased to accept a 'Copy' of the post you sent to Ann on the
    freedom to post...  Thank you....

    Message: 61826
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last/ Ladies?
    Date: 10/29/89  Time: 22:41:14

            Excuse me ladies.... 'I' run this board....  Hmmmmm  Better make
    that 'Sandy and I' run this board....  And EVERYONE is entitled to their
    views....   Understood!?

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61827
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Mecham
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 01:36:54

    Regardless of perceived truths or plastic veneer, the soil will
    come out in the almighty wash.
    Falsehood, fortunately, is finite.

    Message: 61828
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob 61818
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 03:05:04

    Bob, that was an even lamer reply than your first.  Why don't you try
    responding to the content of my messages instead of parroting my words back
    at me.  Also, tell me about George Washinton Carver.  I admit I don't know
    what he did.

    Message: 61829
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 03:13:05

        Oh, I see, Cliff.  Because Martin Luther King slept with a lot of women,
    that makes him a rapist.  Good one.
        Nobody ever said he led a spotless, perfect life.  Learn to separate one
    part of his life (what he did for the black rights movement) from another
    part (his sexual promiscuity).  Lots of great politicians and artists had
    questionable lifestyles -- does that  mean that what they did is any less
    of an achievement?

         You're dead wrong when you say that MLK instigated riots.  If you'd
    listen to what he said in most of his speeches, you'd realize that what he
    preached was *passive resistance* -- a non-violent objection to racism.  You
    may be confusing Martin Luther King Jr. with Malcolm X.  Don't.

         Again, you tell me that there are many other blacks who are more
    deserving of a holiday.  Again, I ask:  Who?

         One last comment.  You say that you feel Martin Luther King "got what
    he deserved" when he was shot.  That's really cool, dude.  Did John
    Kennedy (who was not morally perfect) deserve to have half his head blown
    off in Dallas, as well?

    Message: 61830
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Adkins
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 04:08:14

    My only wish is that you had threatened to kill me as well.

    Message: 61831
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 06:06:44

    In the first place, you are condemning DeConcini as a senator because of his
    position on one issue, and one alone. Since this is an issue that is close
    to your heart, I can understand your thinking, but if you could look at your
    statements objectively, you wold see that they are rather one-sided. As to
    the issue itself, the NRA has one of the strongest lobbies in Washington,
    and if DeConcini's bill is as restrictive as you say it is, it is highly
    doubtful that it will go anywhere. It is certainly not cause for a recall
    election. The man has still done a lot of good for the people of Arizona in
    the years he has represented us in congress.
     As to Mecham, we obviously disagree as to his worthlessness, and neither of
    us is going to change the other's mind. At any rate, he is a dead issue
    politically in Arizona, even if he doesn't want to lie down yet, and not
    worth the arguing. My purpose in identifying the idiot who instigated the
    MLK petitions as a Mormon had less to do with his religious beliefs than it
    did with the fact that he was so identified by reason of his letter to the
    head of the Mormon church. My comment was for the purpose of identifying the
    individual, and not a condemnation of Mormons in general. I, too, have
    Mormon friends Cliff. So what? That fact neither justiffies the errors in
    Mormonism, nor does their belief lessen our friendship. Now please don't
    make the error of saying that I have condemned Mormons on this BBS in the
    past, when that is simply a lie and you know it. I have indeed criticized
    what I consider to be errors in the Mormon belief system, but have not
    condemned and individuals because of their adherence to that system. Kindly
    stop putting words in my mouth or thoughts in my mind that aren't there.

    Message: 61832
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Kennedy
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 06:12:41

     I think it was John F. Kennedy, the president, who got his in Dallas.
    RObert got his backstage somewhere else. (Washington?) Actually, none of the
    Kennedy clan was morally spotless, but it didn't seem to affect their job
    performance much, although it seems that Ted's little night of fun at
    Chappaquidick sort of did him in politically, at least on the national
    scene.

    Message: 61833
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ms. Brown
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 08:08:19

    You did not simply suggest that they take their argument elsewhere, you
    demanded it! Paul said about the same thing, but in an entirely different
    manor. You came on like gang buster's, he did not!
    Who in the hell am I to post my opinion about your post? I am a paying
    member that has been on this board for over two years without missing a day.
    I have the same right as you have to express my opinions and comment on
    other's. Cliff & Sandy run this board! No one else!

    Message: 61834
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 12:52:06

    The idiot you speak of is Julian Sanders, a person of some prominence in the
    Mormon religion.  Many Mormons believe that black people are cursed by God
    because they are "descendants of Cain."

    Message: 61835
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 12:53:37

    George Washington Carver invented peanut butter.

    Message: 61837
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 13:26:29

    You CAN have it your way, James.  I've made it clear that I don't want this
    done, so you make your choice.

    Message: 61839
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on Kennedy
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 15:09:53

            I did not like the Kennedys , so I did not get upset when he was
    blown away.  Besides, it was JOHN Kennedy who got it in Dallas, not Robert.

            I should tell you what other blacks would have been better suited,
    and you don't even know who George Washington Carver was?  What do they
    teach you in school now days? Carver was an American educator, scientist,
    and author....  Geesh.. my boys knew that!

            MLK was said to have raped several women in his day...  not during
    the last few years of his life however when he was on his moral trip. I did
    not confuse King with Malcom X.  You are the one confused....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61840
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul?
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 15:41:09

            I did not say you condemned Mormons in the past?  Where did you read
    that CRAP?  YOU are the one who is bringing up the issue on Mormons???  So
    do not point your biggoted finger at me and say I am putting words into your
    mouth.  You even went so far as to say it is a "LIE" and I know it as if I
    had said it already????  Talk about putting words in someones mouth.....

            I don't give a darn if you do not like Mecahm... the man was PROVEN
    innocent of ALL charges and deserves to be called by his correct name even
    if you don't like his politics!

            As for DeConcini... you wrongly have accused me of being upset over
    a single issue!  Years ago I was upset with him over his role in the give
    away of the Panama Canal. And...his unforgivable assault on Judge Bork,
    where by innuendo and half truth he slandered an honorable man. His Land
    Dealings (Questionable)  Re: the C.A.P. and others...that have been
    discussed on APOLLO.  His introduction of legislation to WEAKEN THE CRIMINAL
    CODES OF THE RACKETEERING ACT to prevent the prosecution of criminals, and
    the release of those previously convicted and in jail now.  The Lincoln
    Thrift affair and his assault on the SECOND AMENDMENT are only a new page in
    the DeConcini recall effort!  Get with it Paul....  you are not up on
    politics beyond what the Repulsive tells you!
            Yes...I know he bought you with a favor, so he is a WONDERFUL man in
    your eyes!
            Now take a 'GRIN' pill and call me in the morning!  Cliffer!!!!!!

    Message: 61841
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:15:37

    Re:  "Suddenly he is now some sort of hero to the world."

    It is because he was martyred.  If he were still alive, no one would have
    even considered him for a holiday.

    Message: 61842
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:17:12

    Re:  "If you feel these tapes are offensive and a source of grief..."

    The tapes sound like good "soap" material.  Put them on a sig for "soap"
    fans.

    Message: 61843
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:23:08

    Re:  "that was an even lamer reply than your first."

    I'm sorry; I don't do to well against name calling.

    Re:  "Why don't you try responding to the content of my messages"

    Ok.  I'll try harder not to give you lame replys.

    Re:  "tell me about George Washinton Carver"

    Rather then type out a lot of info about GWC, please consult an
    encyclopedia.

    Message: 61844
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:36:06

    Re:  "Because Martin Luther King slept with a lot of women"

    I think what Cliff and I object to is the lack of moral integrity on the
    part of MLK.  If a man cheats on his wife, he will probably cheat in other
    areas as well.  If a man is going to hold some kind of political clout or
    any position of authority or leadership, I would like to think he will not
    cheat when given an opportunity.  Therefore in my opinion, MLK doesn't
    qualify for any holiday.

    What is it our country was looking for?  Was it a "Black" holiday, or was it
    a "Civil Rights" holiday?  Personally I think the politicians were looking
    for a "Black" holiday to show how unbiased and up to date, and fair, and so
    into equal rights.  They in effect were saying, "See how righteous we are?
    We made a Black holiday!  And so fast too!"

    Give me a break.  Arizona did it a little different.  They passed the MLK
    holiday only after they were continually threatened with convention
    boycotts.  It was motivated by greed (love of money).  I would venture to
    say if the MLK holiday was put to popular vote, it would not exist.

    Message: 61845
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:41:04

    Re:  "The man has still done a lot of good for the people of Arizona in
    the years he has represented us in congress."

    In times passed, yes.  But now he seems more interested in lining his
    pockets and the pockets of friends.  He has lost his good judgement.  I did
    not vote for him in the past election, and I will not vote for him in the
    future.  The story is so common.  A man gets elected with all the good
    intentions in the world.  After a few terms he gets greedy.  The old story
    continues to ring true.  Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
    absolutely.

    Message: 61846
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:43:43

    Re:  "Many Mormons believe that black people are cursed by God
    because they are "descendants of Cain.""

    But haven't you heard?  They changed their minds!  They got a "special"
    revelation straight from the Almighty!

    Message: 61847
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:45:58

    Re:  "George Washington Carver invented peanut butter."

    I think that is a very significant invention!  Do you realize how much
    peanut butter is consumed today?  We run through a pound jar a week just in
    my family.  I got three growing boys.

    Message: 61848
    Author: James Allison
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: EMPLOYMENT
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 16:55:03

        Earn up to 339.84 per week
        assembling our products at
        home.  An amazing recorded
        message reveals details!
        Call today!       493-5527

    Message: 61849
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 17:35:12

    Shucks!  I need $339.85 per week.

    Message: 61850
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael James 61834
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 17:50:43

    You speak of Julian Sanders as "a person of some prominence in the Mormon
    religion."  This is true to the extent that many of us Mormons are shocked
    by what Mr. Sanders presents as "Mormon Doctrine," when in fact it is
    nothing more than his strange interpretation of scripture. Personally, I
    think Mr. Sanders is a fruitcake.

    As to your phrase, "Many Mormons believe that black people are cursed by God
    because they are 'descendants of Cain.'"  I don't know if "many" would
    qualify here.  Some Mormons may believe that.  Many LDS believe that black
    skin is the "sign" of the curse on the descendants of Cain.  However, this
    is all what I like to call "Mormon member speculation."  There is no
    "Mormon Doctrine" on the origin of black skin, and the LDS Church DOES NOT
    teach that black people are cursed by God.

    Message: 61851
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 18:27:37

    I think the death penalty is a bit excessive for adultery, and even if it
    were to be imposed, King was denied due process of the law.

    Message: 61852
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 18:28:01

    Do not insult Heather Brown, or I shall be forced to kill you.

    Message: 61853
    Author: Jack Smith
    Category: Question?
    Subject: James H.
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 19:10:00

    All questions of your penitence aside, I question the act of provoking
    someone whom you assert to be dangerously deranged.  Either you don't
    believe your own statement, or you do and your own rationality is called
    into question.

    Message: 61854
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Robert Kennedy
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 20:28:04

    ... was shot in Los Angeles.  Come on, Paul?  Where were you?  I was *young*
    then!

    Message: 61855
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Kennedy's
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 20:31:56

    Wait just a minute, Cliff!  You didn't feel bad that somebody blew away the
    PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES?  You didn't feel bad that somebody took the
    election system into their own hands and blew away a CANDIDATE for the
    presidency?  Just because he wasn't "your man" ???

    You know, the flag is a symbol on the level of the President in this
    country.  Yet, I'll bet you get upset if somebody burns a FLAG that they
    bought with their own money.  Why should you care?  IT ISN'T YOUR FLAG!

    Message: 61856
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: MLK Holidayu
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 20:35:38

    Bob, if he were still alive, we'd wait until he was dead of old age before
    we'd put his name on a holiday.  Think about it.

    Message: 61857
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 21:37:24

    Re:  "if he were still alive, we'd wait until he was dead"

    You're right in that I stated it incorrectly.  Let me say it again but this
    correctly.

    If MLK would have died of natural causes, he would not be honored with a
    holiday.  Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

    Message: 61858
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Ms. Brown
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 21:46:44

    Well I see that Ms. Brown has lock me out of the Void SIG.  I feel bad about
    that.  It seems that she explained one had to be a member for 5 years in
    order to be qualified to be a member.  I still don't get that.  If I had
    been a bad boy on her SIG, I would understand why I would be thrown off, but
    such is not the case.  My Mom told me life wasn't fair.  May God rest her
    soul.  You win Ms. Brown!  I hope you are happy.  I bear you no malice.  I'm
    looking forward to meeting you in person at a future GT.  You got me
    curious.

    Message: 61859
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: The Abyss
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 21:52:59

    I took the wife to see "The Abyss" tonight.  It is a high adventure, cliff
    hanger type movie.  My recommendation, go see it if you like that kind of
    movie.  There was some profanity.  That's probably why it got the PG-13
    rating.  No drugs; no sex.

    Message: 61860
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/MLK
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 22:02:34

    I don't see how you can say that MLK "got what he deserved"?  What a cruel
    thing to say.  Even if the man had his faults, and slept with women other
    than his wife, why death?  I believe that he was fighting for what he
    thought was right, not trying to incite riots.

    Message: 61861
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: B-Dog on the Pres...
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 22:48:15

            Okay, I was a little harsh on the Kennedys and even MLK...
    They did not deserve death just because I was not a fan of theirs.  I was
    shocked that someone would assassinate the President...  and I felt anger
    about it.  I was even sorry to hear MLK got it...but did not get upset over
    the fact since I saw him as a phony and a trouble maker.  (My opinion)
    I do respect the office of the President, however to me the FLAG means more
    than any one person.   It is not the material value of the flag, but for
    what it stands for.... no matter who purchased it.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61862
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: STATE FAIR
    Date: 10/30/89  Time: 23:58:52

         A 29 year old woman was found strangled to death in a 55 gallon drum on
    the last day of the fair.
         Either she was sexually promiscuous or had heard the Adkins/Hawley
    tapes.  Obviously.
         Now, of course, I want to know all the dirt on this dead woman.  Can
    someone fill me in?  If I read the details in the paper, however, it will
    only prove my point that the media is a collective pack of bloodthirsty
    hounds who get a thrill out of human misery all the while disguising it in
    the flimsy dressing of "free speech".
         I'm glad us regular folks aren't like that.  Whew.
         So, how many women DID the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. sleep with?  I
    want names, dammit.  And a list of all positions used.  Too bad he spent so
    much time fighting for equal rights and all.  Maybe if he were poking some
    lady that day he wouldn't have gotten shot, and he could have stuck around
    to give the media more lurid tales to throw in the mill.  Not that I'd
    believe what the no-good media said anyway.  Not that it would stop me from
    posting it as heresay years later.
         Jes' the facts, mam. Amen & Good night.

    Message: 61863
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul 61832
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 00:54:18

    You're absolutely right.  John F. Kennedy.  Dumb mistake.

    Message: 61864
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff 61839
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 01:03:34

         I know that it was John Kennedy.  I was thinking the right man, but not
    the right name.
         Please spare yourself the superiority trip in thinking that because I
    do not know who G.W. Carver is, I was not properly educated.  Why are you so
    eager to put an element of insult into your messages?  Don't you have any
    emotional control?  Can you separate what I am saying from who I am?
         It is bewildering that you claim to have been so indifferent to JFK's
    murder.  Whether or not you liked the man, it was a sad event.  The way you
    describe it, one would think you enjoyed it.
         Why do you lapse into comments such as "You are the one who is
    confused," when up until now, we could have been having a completely
    decent, mud-less debate?  There was no malicious intent in my comment that
    perhaps you had confused MLK with Malcolm X.
         Your allegations that MLK may have raped some women are pure B.S.

         What makes all of this worse is your position on flag-burning.  You
    strongly imply that you feel a burned flag is worse than a murdered man.
    Spooky.  You rave over "what [the flag] stands for," but it seems that you
    don't know.  It symbolizes a lot of ideas, yes -- including the right to
    object to one's own government (which is how our country started, right?)

         Get it straight, Cliff:  The flag symbolizes freedom.  To burn an
    American flag is a freedom.  Therefore, the act of burning a flag is
    a stronger expression of freedom than, say, just to wave it.  Understand?

    Message: 61865
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 61844
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 01:07:06

         Bob, if you look very closely, you will find that there is no name-
    calling in my messages to you.
        I'm sorry you aren't willing to make the effort to write anything about
    George Washington Carver.  I will consult an encyclopedia.
        (Though it would've been nice to think that you have something to offer
    in terms of sharing your knowledge.  I guess an atmosphere of learning is
    too much to ask from a BBS.)
        I disagree on your point about moral integrity.  I won't defend MLK for
    being an adulterer, but I think it's a completely separate issue.  His
    private life is not my concern.  His influence, and the power of his
    speeches, are.
        You may be right in saying that politicians are using the holiday to get
    votes.  I don't care.  That's not what I'm arguing.  My initial argument is
    that MLK is more deserving of a holiday than Christopher Columbus.
         Part of the argument is based on a
    lesser-of-two-evils philosophy:  MLK was imperfect, but a lot less
    imperfect than C.C.   I also argue that MLK's influence is a lot stronger
    than C.C.'s, and the ideas he represented are worthy of rememberance,
    possibly through a holiday.
    But hey, I'm no MLK freak.  Find me a morally ideal man who had a stronger
    social impact than MLK, then I'll argue to give him a holiday.  I don't
    know if George Washington Carver would be this man -- his name seems to
    provoke more images of peanut butter than of racial equality.  But hey,
    that's fine.  Skippy Day.  It's perfect.  Racial equality and high protein.

    Message: 61866
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 02:43:06

         A person who waves an American flag is, in essence, saying, "Look at
    me!  I'm so free that I can wave my flag!  Look at me wave it!  Oh boy!"

         A person who BURNS an American flag is, in essence, saying, "Look at
    me!  I'm so free that I can BURN my flag!  And it's LEGAL!  Oh boy!  Heh
    heh!"

         Which of the above patriots is TRULY freer?  Please answer honestly.

    Message: 61868
    Author: Ralph Moffin
    Category: Joke
    Subject: TO ALL DUMB PATRIOTS
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 03:08:31

         "I plead alignment
          to the flakes
          of the untitled
          snakes of
          a merry
          cow --
          ...and to the

          republicans
          for which
          they scam...

          -- one nacho,
          underpants,
          with licorice
          and jugs of
          wine for
          owls."

    Message: 61869
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael James
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 05:17:02

     Thank you for reminding me of the idiot's name, as well as one o the tenets
    of the Mormon faith with which I disagree, since it has no scriptural
    foundation. In the future I shall call Sanders by name should the occasion
    arise, which I hope it doesn't, since his actions hardly deserve the
    attention they seem to get.

    Message: 61870
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 05:21:40

     Your head is made up on some things. It is useless to try to confuse you
    with facts, so I won't try. Havagooday.

    Message: 61871
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/DeConcici
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 05:31:03

     How very true, and how very sad that we cannot elect and maintain an
    "honest" politician. Power does indeed corrupt, and there doesn't seem to be
    any exeptions. What, then, do we do? Go with the experience and it's
    accompanying influence, or keep electing neophyytes who have no clout in the
    hallowed halls until they, too, have been corrupted? It seems that Sen.
    McCain, a freshman Senator, has already had his hands in the cookie jar on
    the Keating affair, and perhaps even more so than DeConcini. At least
    DeConcini has returned the Keating money. McCain has not.
     Basically, what I said at the beginning of this discussion was that the
    only way to look at a politician is with the supposition that they are ALL
    dishonest and disreputable, and put those issues aside to concentrate on the
    overall good they have done or can do for the people they represent. It's a
    bag of worms no matter what we do, and the choice is narrow. We either keep
    the corrupted ones we know, or elect new ones to be corrupted. Either way
    the system wins and we lose. Great process, huh?

    Message: 61872
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B. Dog/Kennedy
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 05:36:23

     THanks for the correction. L.A. is correct, of course. You have to remember
    that I get on this BBS very early in the morning, before I have even
    finished my first cupa coffee. The brain isn't quite fully awake. (I still
    remembered that it wasn't Robert who was blown away in Dallas though. Give
    me credit for that?)

    Message: 61873
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: On Taranto
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 07:28:44

    I want everyone to noticed message #61852 where JT has threatened me. If I
    end up dead, he will be the one that did it!

    BTW JT - who is Heather Brown that she can't be insulted? I insult you all
    the time. Are you less of a person? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61874
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on the Void
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 07:40:09

    As I've mentioned, I've been a member here for the last two years and still
    do not understand 'The Void'! I was on it last year when James H. was
    running it - we had a story going that was lots of fun. When it was over,
    Cliff shut it down. I guess what I don't understand is how someone, that has
    been away for at least two years that I know of, can breeze back in and tell
    who can and who can't be in one of the sigs. and she doesn't do it very
    nicely either. I admit that my nose is a little bent out of shape, but I too
    bear no malace towards anyone nor hold any resentments. It's just the way it
    is and I except that. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61875
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 10:22:33

            Where did I say "A burned Flag is worse than a murdered man"?
    Talk about mud slinging...
            And where did I say "I enjoyed Mr Kennedy's assassination"?
    Talk about more mud slinging...

            What the FLAG represents is more important than any one man!
    Many men lost their lives defending the symbol (the Flag)...  Are you trying
    to tell us they wasted their lives, Zak?

            Again, you are confused Zakky!  Re-Read my posts... and tell me the
    message numbers where I said what you say I said.  Facts Zak..I want facts!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61876
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak on freer?
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 10:46:12

            A person who waves an American flag is, in essence, saying, "Look at
    me!  I'm so free that I can wave my flag!  Look at me wave it!  Oh boy!"

            A person who kills an American citizen is, in essence, saying, "Look
    at me!  I'm so free that I can kill!  Look at me kill!  Oh boy!"

            Which of the above is TRULY freer?  Please answer honestly.

    Your question makes about as much sense as the above.  It is not legal to
    burn a flag as of this post....  Just as it is not legal to murder.  I will
    say I would rather have someone burn their flag and break the law then to
    take a shot at someone, killing that person.  But both are illegal, even
    though flag burning does not physically hurt anyone.  However what you fail
    to understand is "Respect" one gives to the flag because so many lost their
    lives defending it.  After being in the military myself, I have a high
    respect for the flag.... more so now, then I did before my military service.
    The flag is made of cloth....  No real value in the cloth...  The flag is a
    symbol, and that has value.  The burning of what America stands for offends
    me!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61877
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 11:04:41

            You have never posted a fact....  You don't have any knowlege of
    facts.. just your own self righteous hate of others for no reason at all.
    You attacked me on the recall of a senator, saying it was all for only one
    issue...  I posted several issues...  then you have the gal to tell me I am
    confused?
            You accuse me of saying I said "You hate Mormons" when all I said
    was it is not nice to address one by their religion.

            I gave you a fact that Mecham was found NOT GUILTY on all charges
    and you refuse to read it or answer it....  because you HATE the man with a
    burning HATE from within yourself!

            Then you tell me you have facts..... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha  that is
    the most ridicules thing you have ever said!

            I will foward your FACTs if you dare post them to Mr Mecham himself
    along with all your other posts.

            Oh yes...you once did post your FACTs on why guns should be taken
    away from American citizens.  After seeing your level of facts.... ha ha ha

            I am off to take a laugh control pill as I am rolling on the floor!

    P.S.  When is the next PIE GT?

    Message: 61878
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: McCain/DeConcini
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 11:12:05

            Yes, DeConcini has said he returned  the Keating money. DeConcini is
    a multi millionaire with all that C.A.P. land deal money he collected.
    And poor McCain now has to figure out how to return his use of the Keating
    Corporate Jet.....  not as easy as returning money...  How do you undo a jet
    flight?

            DeConcini is deeper into Mr Keating than McCain.  Just to make this
    clear...   I am NOT for Mr McCain either.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61879
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Arguments are FUN!
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 11:23:44

            Yes, Arguments are FUN, or at least it seems so.  More users log in
    when we are having them. ??  But let us not get carried away by getting ones
    "Nose a little bent out of shape" as Ann puts it.  I fully expect that if
    Heather Brown was to show up at a GT, Ann would get along with her as I do
    with say, Paul Savage.  Paul and I have never gotten to FISTs (yet) ha ha
    For you new users...we have never had a fist fight at an Apollo GT, so
    please, when you hear about a GT....do NOT be afraid of coming!  We are more
    mild mannered in person.  Words on a BBS are to get ATTENTION!

            Understood?    I hope so!  (I hate getting beat up by my users)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61880
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/last
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 11:41:32

    Yes, I might get along with Ms. Brown if I met her at a GT - but she'd have
    to be more friendly for me to do so. Paul is/was! I can't see where she has
    been friendly to anyone here. Does she save the nice side of her persona for
    the void? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61881
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: $tatus Sale..
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 11:51:42

            This is the LAST day for those who might like to take advantage of
    the $tatus Membership 1/2 price SALE!   That is a full year for $6.00 over
    the regular cost of $12.00.   That is only 50 cents per month...  But the
    application will have to be post marked by Midnight tonight (10/31/89).

            Anything after that will be rejected!

            See the <$>cmd in the ain menu for other info.

            This is for anyone who dose not have current $tatus!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61882
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 13:45:42

    Re:  "So, how many women DID the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. sleep with?  I
    want names, dammit."

    You are going to have to wait about 50 years.  A federal judge sealed all
    the FBI records on MLK for 50 years.  At the time it was feared the FBI
    records would cause a big stir on the then recently inacted MLK holiday.

    Message: 61883
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 13:47:29

    Re:  "I do not know who G.W. Carver is, I was not properly educated."

    Hmmmmm.

    Message: 61884
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 13:58:43

    Please forgive me for not writing a short biography on GWC.  I just don't
    have the time.  I'm sure you will find adequate coverage in any number of
    encyclopedias.  On the matter of "moral integrity", you're saying that a man
    who will cheat in his private life, will have no more inclination to cheat
    in his public life then a man who does not cheat in his private life?

    Re:  "MLK is more deserving of a holiday than Christopher Columbus."

    Well, I disagree.  I am willing to agree for you to disagree.

    Re:"MLK's influence is a lot stronger than C.C.

    There is quite a time span between the two.  In another 500 years who is to
    say that MLK will have any influence at all?

    Message: 61885
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:01:08

    It will be interesting to see your reaction when a Democrat Mormon runs for
    office.  Something like sweet and sour?

    Message: 61886
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:06:59

    Re:  "What, then, do we do?"

    I think a step in the right direction would be to have limited terms of
    office for all political positions instead of just president.  We will never
    eliminate corruption in government, but limited terms would help.  The
    biggest problem is the people.  The people are the ones responsible for
    voting.  I remember a while back a congressmen named Clayton Powell (that
    might not be just right).  He was thrown out of office by congress for a
    variety of offences.  But the people of his state voted him right back in
    again.  It makes you wonder.

    Message: 61887
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:10:40

    Re:  "who is Heather Brown that she can't be insulted?"

    She is the same who threw me off of the Void sig.  I'm not going to say
    anything more until I get a chance to make her acquaintance.  Maybe she is
    not as bad as her bark.

    Message: 61888
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:13:39

    Re:  "P.S.  When is the next PIE GT?"

    Shhhhhh!  Don't say that on the public board!  It will cause a riot!

    Message: 61889
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:15:33

    Re:  "For you new users...we have never had a fist fight at an Apollo GT"

    Are you saying that our bark is worse than our bite?

    Message: 61890
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: All/Spaz
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 14:35:26

    The Void was Spaz Brown's SIG 4 or 5 years ago.  When she was logging on it
    was hers.  When she could no longer log on, she passed SIGopship to me.  I
    let people who weren't on originally to try to liven the board up.

    The SIG did die down and was made invisible until she came back.  A lot of
    the newcomers really don't know Spaz.  She really hasn't gotten on regularly
    since October of 1984.  You will find her a very interesting
    conversationalist, and an amiable person.

    But it always was her SIG.  She considers it her demesnes.  And only people
    she knows are allowed in.  She may let people in at a later date, but the
    choice is all hers.

    Message: 61891
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Oudin
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 18:06:53

    Hawley is lying.  The truth about Heather Brown is known only to those of us
    in the Inner Circle.  Yours is not to question why.

    Message: 61892
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 18:07:10

    Are you saying we aren't free to wave an American flag?

    Message: 61893
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Halloween
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 18:46:12

            Have a fun safe night...  Watch out for the goblins  and other
    ghouls....... ha ha ha ha  and wicked SysOps!

            And most of all... watch out for Annie the ASSp on her broom!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61894
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: returning money
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 20:46:44

    I agree that politicians should get rid of tainted money, but why should
    they return it to the crook?  I mean, the{last thing that I want is for
    Keating, et al, to get there hands back on hundreds of thousands of dollars.
      How about we get them to give it to the US govt to retire the debt?  Or
    give it to one of my favorite charities???

    Message: 61895
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/Abyss
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 20:47:00

    Let's hear it for Cliff-hangers ...

    Message: 61896
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Heather Brown
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 20:53:03

    Has anyone else noticed that Sandy is gone now that Heather is back?

    Does *this* explain what kind of hold Ms. Brown has over SYSOP Cliff?

    As I recall, there was a phone call to Heather and she told you to let some
    new people in, "except for Peter"

    Message: 61897
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: SHOP CMD
    Date: 10/31/89  Time: 22:31:13

            People should check out the SHOP cmd in the ain menu now and
    then.  We have added some *new* services.

            For people who like pet fish.. we have added a very friendly place
    called 'Aquatic Professionals'...  We shop there!

            Need a "Clown"?  for a party?  Try 'Freddie Freckles'....

            Need a Machine Shop?  Milling machine work...Lathe work... Just
    give Gemini a call...

    The above shops along with many others can be found in the SHOP cmd.
    You can search though them all with an '*' or you can search out a string,
    such as CLOWN, FISH, DENTIST, MACHINE, GUN, LAW, VCR and other key words.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61898
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg 61883
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 01:38:52

    Don't take my words out of context.

    What is the big deal that I don't know much about G. W. Carver?  I had the
    honesty to admit that I didn't know about ONE historical person, and I got
    jumped on.

    I didn't ask for a biography on him, but I did ask that you at least tell me
    something of what you know.  You ought to at least have some imformation
    that can enlighten me.  Or are you content to sit back and go "hmmm,"
    taking cheap shots?  As I said before, if you go back and read my messages
    to you, it should become obvious that I did not engage in any name-calling,
    implicit or otherwise.  I hate people who put others down for a small
    admission of ignorance on one topic, but then have absolutely nothing to
    share of their knowledge.  YOU obviously must know a lot more than I do
    about G.W. Carver, since you're so happily smug about the whole thing.  Why
    can't you tell me anything about him?  I have to assume, if you don't, you
    are ignorant yourself.

    Why is Columbus more deserving of a holiday?  You saw the message I wrote
    about what he did; it was factual (and if you don't believe me, consult an
    encyclopedia...)  Obviously he was more apt to cheat than MLK.  So what is
    your rationale?

    Message: 61899
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 01:50:09

    Oooh, WOW, Cliff, you really caught me on your last message.  What a sharp
    thinker!  Please note that in previous messages, I have not engaged in any
    mud-slinging towards you.  However, I'm going to throw caution to the wind,
    because you're such a dork.

    First of all, you incorrectly quote me.  Cliff, you must learn that if you
    quote somebody, you're supposed to do it verbatim.  Do you know what
    verbatim means, Cliff?  It means word-for-word, you doddering fool.  The
    phrases you put in quotes and called "mine" were nothing more than poor
    excuses for paraphrases.

    For example:  I never said, "You enjoyed Mr. Kennedy's assasination."  I
    said, "The way you describe it, one would think you enjoyed it."  There is a
    world of difference there, you senile bag of lard.  I wasn't making a
    factual judgment as to whether or not you enjoyed it, I was describing my
    impression of you.  In message 61839, you specifically said, and I quote:
    "I did not like the Kennedys , so I did not get upset when he was blown
    away."  FACT 1:  Cliff didn't like JFK.  FACT 2:  Cliff wasn't upset when he
    died.  FACT 3:  Cliff describes his tragic death in casual terms, such as
    "blown away" -- this description of a gunshot to the head denotes no
    sympathy or sorrow.  Therefore, Cliff, there is nothing wrong with my
    feeling that you got some sort of satisfaction over the event.  Of course,
    it is only a feeling, and as such it cannot be judged right or wrong.  So I
    am completely in-line in this regard.

    Message: 61900
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Moron Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:01:11

    In regards to your question, "Where did I say 'A burned flag is worse than a
    murdered man'?," I did not quote you as saying that.  Pay attention for once
    in your whimsical life.  I didn't say those were your WORDS.  I did say that
    that IDEA CAME ACROSS in your message.  If you will look at your message
    61861, I will explain it for you, OK?  The subject in this message was the
    deaths of MLK and JFK.  Then you went on to say, "I do respect the office of
    the President [meaning, in this case, JFK], however to me the FLAG means
    more than any one person [JFK]."  In other words, the protection of the
    flag, to you, is more important than the death of, say, President Kennedy.
    My impression follows logically from your message.  I worded it this way:
    "You strongly imply that you feel a burned flag is worse than a murdered
    man."  Again, this statement follows.  I did not quote you.  I suggested an
    implication.  Cliff, don't you understand how quotes work in the English
    language?  Geesh, my boys know that!  (And I don't even have boys!)

    So, to conclude:  I was not mud-slinging in my previous messages to you.
    You would love to think I was, but it was merely the result of your own
    inability to properly interpret my messages.  It should have been easy to
    do, but I guess not for you, Cliff.  You're a very foolish man, if I do say
    so myself.  I may not know who G. W. Carver is, but AT LEAST I CAN GRASP
    SOME OF THE SIMPLEST CONCEPTS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!

    Message: 61901
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:09:32

    Here's a quote.  Cliff said it.  It's verbatim.  It's in context.

    "Many men lost their lives defending the symbol (the Flag)...  Are you
    trying to tell us they wasted their lives, Zak?"

    Good question, Cliff.  But first, who were these men who sacrificed
    themselves for a piece of cloth?  I could easily understand it if they were
    fighting to protect their country, or something like that, but to die to
    save a FLAG?  Who were these idiots?  Yes, I'd say they wasted their lives.

    Here's another quote.

    "Again, you are confused Zakky.  Facts Zak...I want facts!"

    I'm not sure what your point was with that, but you're scaring me.

    Another quote:  "The burning of what America stands for offends me!"
         That's absurd.  To burn a symbol (the flag) is not equal to burning
    what the symbol is supposed to mean.  The meaning is what counts.  Whatever
    object symbolizes that meaning is trivial.  AGAIN, YOU ARE CONFUSED.  The
    freedom itself is more important than the symbol of freedom.  Get it through
    your head, okay?  AGAIN, YOU ARE CONFUSED.  The flag is a nice symbol, but
    people like you have turned it into a symbol of blind patriotism and Morton
    Downy Jr.-esque hysteria.  AGAIN, YOU ARE CONFUSED.

    Message: 61902
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:20:42

    Cliff, the saddest thing about your messages is that their factual
    information to emotions-run-amok ratio is so God-awful.  I ask a few simple
    questions, and I'll be lucky if you even reply to one of them.

    For example, in message 61822 you claim that "There have been many great
    black people in history."  I do not dispute this statement, but I did ask,
    "Who?"  You did not submit a single name.  The only black man who has been
    mentioned is G. W. Carver, and that was by Bob Thornburger.

    Also, I asked you to substantiate the claim that MLK was a rapist.  You
    couldn't.  But instead of admitting you might be wrong, you just weaken your
    claim a little bit, as in message #61822:  "MLK slept with half the women he
    ever met..."  THAT's your reasoning behind saying he was a rapist?  What are
    you, some kind of moron?  What did they teach you in school back then?

    Cliff, you talk yourself into corners and then you mud-sling your way out by
    confusing the issues, making straw-man cases, misquoting, and taking cheap,
    insulting shots.

    Message: 61903
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:30:53

    RE:  "Facts Zak...I want facts!"  Okay, I'll give you even more facts --
    facts that show how inane your written behavior has been.  And on your own
    BBS, no less.

    Message 61822:  "[Martin Luther King Jr.] was a trouble maker and got what
    he deserved [when he was assassinated]!"
    Message 61839:  "I did not like the Kennedys, so I did not get upset when he
    was blown away."
    Message 61861:  "I was shocked that someone would assassinate the
    President... and I felt anger about it.  I was even sorry to hear MLK got
    it...but did not get upset over the fact..."

    So which was it, Cliff?  Were you upset when JFK was shot, or not?  Which
    message sounds more sincere?  You get all emotional and the truth starts to
    come out about your feelings, but when you start to realize that you may be
    making yourself look like the reactionary gut-sucker you really are, you
    start scurrying like a rat to cover yourself up.  You ought to be ashamed of
    yourself.  You shimmering pile of hippopotamus feces.

    But anyway.  ARGUING IS FUN!  I hope you don't take all this too seriously,
    Cliff.  It's all in good fun!  Friends?

    Lovingly,
    Your little Zakky Muffin

    Message: 61904
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:34:52

    No, I wasn't saying that we aren't free to wave an American flag.  I should
    have made that more clear.  I was just saying that the person who can burn a
    flag has more freedom than a person who can't.

    Message: 61905
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 02:46:25

    Do you dislike blacks?

    Message: 61906
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/Mecham
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 06:22:51

    Mecham was found not guilty on ONE charge, and ONE ONLY, that being the one
    the Senate refused to convict on in the impeachment trial. He was still
    found guilty of high crimes, misdemeanors and malfeasance of office, more
    than enough to remove him.
     Now who's confused?
     As to DeConcini, I will grant you every one of the points you made against
    him. All of them put together form your opinion of his actions, and are not
    enough to warrant a recall. As I said previously, if enough people feel as
    you do concerning him, it should not be that difficult to replace him at the
    next election, a much less expensive procedure.

    Message: 61907
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: "Poor" McCain?
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 06:28:08

     I only wish I could be that "poor"! I wouldn't mind having the ability to
    buy that "shack" he purchased just prior to his election, just so wifey
    could tear it apart and rebuild it to suit herself.
     You don't necessarily "undo" a jet flight. You could pay for it, however,
    much like the rest of us do if we choose to fly. Poor McCain could probably
    scrape up a few bucks for transportation. He could always fudge on his
    expense account, so that we magnanimous taxpayers could help the poor boy
    out of his dilemma. (I wonder how I could steal a trip to the Bahamas. After
    the hurricane season, of corse.)

    Message: 61908
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 06:33:30

     Interestingly enough, and probably unbelievable to you and Cliff, I do not
    vote for candidates based on their political party affiliation OR their
    religion. I vote as intelligently as possible, based on performance and
    aparrent ability, as much as I can, and have voted for both Republicans and
    Mormons in the past. No sweet and sour there. Just a non-sequiter.

    Message: 61909
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 06:35:05

     I have always supported a limited term for all offices, and still do. If
    nothing else, it would at least reduce the potential for corruption.

    Message: 61910
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 07:14:07

    Sandy's gone? Hmmm ... then I wonder who that was over at my house the other
    day? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61911
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/#61908
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 07:22:16

    Re: your quote - "And have voted for both Republicans and Mormons in the
    past" .... Hmmm .. I didn't know Mormons were now a political party! (grin)
    BTW - I did not see the word Democrate in that message. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61912
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/void
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 07:24:04

    Would you care to elaborate on why you were thrown out of the void? How were
    you there in the first place when it's been shut down? Just curious.
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61913
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Halloween
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 07:43:50

    It was another fun filled Halloween night around my house. Yes, Cliff, I was
    indeed a witch and a terrible looking one at that - my daughter was one
    also, my grand daughter a 'couch potato' and grand son was a werewolf. We
    take Halloween seriously! I managed to really scare about 4 little kids when
    they came to the door. (made my night!) I have this horriable sounding tape
    I play of grave yard sounds - I hide it in the front courtyard. This scared
    a few too. Of course I had the usual jack-O-lanterns and black widow
    spiders, etc. At about 8 o'clock we then went trick or treating ourselves. I
    got about 5 lbs. of goodies before I got so tired that I had to turn back.
    Bob ... I REALLY wanted to go to your house - had my spiel all ready - was
    going to say after you dropped one piece of candy in my bag.. "Hey! Is this
    all I get? One lousy piece of candy? Arn't you at least gonna offer me a
    piece of pie?" But I just got so tired and it got late. You would absolutely
    NOT have recognized me! One of my neighbors did not either - after excepting
    the candy from one of their kids, I blatantly pushed past him and went into
    the house raving "where in the heck is the booze? I don't want this stupid
    candy"! The shocked face of this neighbor was worth a million when he saw
    this big old ugly witch storming into his house. For a minute it looked like
    he was going to get his gun! But I gave it away when I smiled and he
    recognized my teeth. Ha ha. We did have a great time. We turn into kids
    again once a year. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61914
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sleaze
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 09:29:40

    I think we need another SIG, it could be called (CLI)FF-HANGERS SIG.

    Also, After reading all this garbage between Hawley and Adkins/Beck, neither
    of whom I have met, I feel that the 50% of Apollo users who don't know the
    facts (sic) should get to read a transcription of the tapes and then we
    could all have one of our famous Apollo votes and decide who was right!  Not
    that it would change anything.

    But we'd need a category of "Who gives a $#!t"

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 61915
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 09:50:54

    I could kill you if you like.  I realize that it doesn't have the same
    romance, but it's an offer.

    HB

    Message: 61916
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:00:44

    Darling, I have just as much a right to log on and "demand" (as you put it)
    that Hawley and Adkins take their private brawl elsewhere instead of making
    fools of themselves publicly as you have to declare your feelings about my
    posting such a message.

    Secondly, I imagine I am quite a bit nicer in person.  It's always harder to
    be nasty when you can see the person you're talking to.

    Third, the Void is alive and (mostly) well. . . which is why Bob could get
    kicked off.  He was booted because he was let on illegally in the first
    place.  Qualifications for membership are that you were logging on at the
    time that I was on regularly, with one exception:  Sandy.  (My alter ego.
    You should see us -- we've got this act down.  I can drink a glass of water
    while she talks.)  James pointed out that this might be a tad
    self-destructive (continually shrinking membership), which is valid and I'm
    considering doing things otherwise.  However, I'm also enjoying Bob's
    annoyment at the moment, so I may postpone "doing the reasonable thing." As
    if I ever do it anyway.  There are a couple of people who are NOT on the
    Void; however, they know why they're not and it's more of an inside joke.
    The only other people (at this point) who aren't on that technically should
    be are people who don't have $tatus membership.  (Mike!  Listen up!  This is
    you!)

    Perhaps I should make the qualification for entrance that you describe to me
    where the name "the Void" came from in the first place. . . Although I
    suppose that may be even more limiting, since a few of the "old-timers"
    (cough cough) may not even know that.

    As for myself, I think JT said it beautifully.  (He has been looking a
    little paler after your insults, though.)

    Finally, ask Mike Carter -- I love a fight.

    HB

    Message: 61918
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Speaking of which
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:04:33

    Cliff, re arguments:

    Much better.

    HB

    Message: 61919
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Kevin Mahoney
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:05:10

    To Zak and all else who know him:  he says hello.

    HB

    Message: 61920
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:06:11

    Oh, so YOU'RE the person that supposedly runs this board?

    (Who is this weirdo anyway?)

    HB

    Message: 61921
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:26:06

    Re:  "Has anyone else noticed that Sandy is gone now that Heather is back?"

    Could it be that one is the other in disguise?  You know, like batwoman.

    Message: 61922
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:36:17

    Good grief Zak!  I didn't know I was jumping on you.  I didn't know I was
    taking your words out of context.  I didn't know I was taking cheap shots at
    you.  I'm sorry you hate me.  I didn't mean to be so happily smug.  I'm
    sorry you think I'm ignorant.

    To preserve peace, I apologize for all the accusations you made in post
    61898.  I don't need the hassle.  So long!

    Message: 61923
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:46:02

    Re:  "Would you care to elaborate on why you were thrown out of the void?
    How were you there in the first place when it's been shut down?"

    Well, somewhere along the line I seem to remember talking to Cliff about the
    various SIGs.  As a result of that conversation I was allowed on the Void
    sig and started posting.  Later on Ms. Brown logged on and asked what I was
    doing there.  I thought at first she was just joking around and responded in
    a similar manner.  After a few exchanges I was locked out.  As I understand
    it, since I wasn't a member 5 years ago, I wasn't qualified to be there.
    I'm not sure I understand.  Just a few weeks back Rod Williams reposted some
    old messages. One was by me, and I believe the date was 1984.  So I have
    been around for at least 5 years.  Maybe it was because I wasn't a $tatus
    member.  I've only been a $tatus member for a little over a year.

    Message: 61924
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:51:26

    Re:  "Bob ... I REALLY wanted to go to your house"

    It sounds like you had a really great time last night Ann!  I was out with
    my 2 youngest making the rounds.  We were out about 2 1/2 hours.  I wish I
    would have thought to come to your house.  The kids had a great time.  Some
    jerks in a jeep came by a egged me while I was standing on the curb waiting
    for the kids at a house.  It really ticked me off.  I glad I didn't have
    anything in my hand to throw, or I probably would have ended up in trouble.
    Maybe next year I'll carry a couple of eggs in self defense.  Ha!

    Message: 61925
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ms. Brown
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 10:55:58

    Re:  "I imagine I am quite a bit nicer in person."

    Hey Ms. Brown!  I'm glad to hear that.  I'm still looking forward to meeting
    you "in person".  Since you live in Tucson, do you get up to the GTs?

    Message: 61926
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GTs
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 11:07:30

    Nope.  Sorry.

    HB

    Message: 61927
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 12:40:12

    DeConcini Re:  Lincoln:  100 million in loans.....  Yes a few thousand for
    Mecham gets him a recall?  How blind your bigotry makes you is amazzing!
            Why did you not wait till the next election to get rid of Mecham?
    I am voting for Mecham this upcoming election...as are many, many others!
    Not because I think he is great... but he is a far sight better then that
    brain dead Mofford.  Mofford by the way had not listed some income
    correctly, but it got overlooked because she listens to the Pheonix 40.
            Now, before I go...I want your facts where McCain got more money
    from Lincoln than DeConcini?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  Tuesday, April 4th 1988 the State Senators voted to convict Mecham of
    "High crimes, misdemeanors or malfeasance in office."  He was later found
    innocent of all charges in a civilian court.  Many lawyers who do not even
    like Mecham, said he was removed from office UNJUSTLY....

    Message: 61928
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 13:24:16

            Don't take my words out of context...  A quote by ZAK!  But he must
    have a licence that lets him take my posts out of context.

            RE: Zak calling me... "DORK", "Doddering fool", "Moron", "Senile Bag
    of Lard", and that's VERBATIM !  It sorta sounds like me.... sometimes!
    However, I feel like Bob... So long Zak!  When you can discuss an issue with
    out the English lessons... I will resume talking to you on this media.   I
    lost the argument between the insults...somewhere?

            But to clear it up... I am not a Kennedy fan...  I was shocked that
    the President was shot....even though I wanted him out of office.
            I don't have the Fall River Herald in my hand that called MLK a
    rapist and a liar and a con-artist.  But then again, it could have just been
    the Media that hated him in that part of the nation.  I have a habit of
    tossing news print after a few years! Sorry!
            Again...The Flag as a piece of cloth means nothing... But as a
    symbol of this nation as a whole... It means a lot for me.  When in the
    military, they tell you to defend the FLAG... That means defend the Nation.
    (some people have to have it spelled out)  I JOINed the military, and did my
    part with pride.
            Sorry I don't have a 100% command of the English language....
    But that is not my forte...

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61929
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Fab. Baker Boys
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 15:15:35

    It was fabulous.

    Message: 61930
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 17:36:13

            I dispute the validity of the 'encyclopedia' you used.

    One of your facts that stands out in my mind at the moment is your statement
    that Amerigo Vespucci discovered America before Columbus.
    As you should know Columbus landed on the New World October 12, 1492.
    Amerigo Vespucci did not do any exploring of the New World until 1497.
    Vespucci was the first to realize that this was a new land. He was the one
    who first called this new land the New World. A German mapmaker, Mercator,
    gave the New World the name America in honor of Vespucci.
    Because information was slow to get around many people did not realize that
    Columbus and Vespucci were sailing in the same area. The map maker did not
    know about Columbus. The reason Vespucci was getting the fame instead of
    Columbus was Vespucci has some sort of traveling agency going. He wrote
    about the new world trying to entice Europeans to come over. His traveling
    pamphlets were vigorously distributed. Europeans, then, associated the New
    World with Vespucci.

    The only other people I know of that came to the New World prior to Columbus
    are the Native Indians many, many years ago the the Vikings in 1100 A.D.
    The reason the Vikins are not given any credit for the discovery of the New
    World is they jealously hid this find from the rest of the World.

    Message: 61931
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob/Void
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 17:52:12

            If you want access to the Void, do what I did ........

                            Marry Cliff.

    Message: 61932
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 18:11:47

    Grow up.

    Message: 61933
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Mr King RIP 1968
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 18:28:10

    I was around when Martin Luther King, Jr. was doing his thing.  I have
    always been interested in politics, so I have never missed a vote, and I
    listened to speeches by all sorts of people.  Today they really seem to
    white wash this Mr. King as some sort of folk hero.  They show you clips
    from some of his speeches.. Always the nice stuff like "I wanna live...."
    Gets you right down in the heart...  You never hear 'Burn, baby burn!' and
    other riot inciting language he used...  I was there.... I am not fooled by
    text books full of lies and half truths.  Zak can believe what he wants, but
    I know the facts as they unfolded before me.  MLK was a bigot himself....
    Now he is a politicians best friend to get the black vote.
                  I have my rights too... and I know what I know, and God be my
    witness, I am not lying!
                  I am sure some of you elders could back me up on this if you
    were politicaly aware back in the 60's.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61934
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/MLK
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 19:23:02

      Can you point me to any possible reference to MLK saying 'Burn, Baby,
    Burn!' in a speech. I think it was someone else.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 61935
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: NRA
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 19:32:40

      The latest issue of The American Rifleman has a column by NRA Executive
    Vice President J. Warren Cassidy in which he addresses the NRA's political
    endorsements and how they are given out. The gist of it seems to be that
    they give no support to Libertarians only because they don't expect them to
    win any races, yet.
      He did not address the point which was brought up in some earlier letters
    from members, to the effect that the NRA would have nothing to lose and
    everything to gain by supporting Libertarian candidates in races where no
    other candidate supports the second ammendment.
      The overall feel of the piece is that the NRA identifies very strongly
    with Libertarian candidates and would be giving them ALL of their support if
    they were closer to winning. I wonder if the NRA leadership is aware that
    there is a Libertarian candidate who has an excellent chance of winning a
    seat on the Tucson City Council at the next election?
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 61937
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 19:59:30

    Bye bye Bob.  Sorry you felt the only thing you could do was to give up.

    Message: 61938
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 20:03:41

    OK.

    Message: 61939
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/01/89  Time: 20:13:09

    JT, grow up yourself.  I've never seen anything written by you that would
    lead me to believe you are anything more than a very literate 9-year old.
    We learn first by example, so where is yours?  I may or may not need
    to grow up, but it's not your place to say.

    Assuming you are "grown up," take a more realistic approach to those who are
    not.  For starters, don't say; show.  If you really want me to change my
    behavior, try offering some positive suggestions as to how it can be done.
    If you really give a damn about my maturity, why don't you make a real
    effort to help me achieve it?  If you don't give a damn, keep your sarcastic
    mouth shut.

    Message: 61940
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Zak/Harold & Maude
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 01:54:12

            Thanks for the fun GT tonight....  The movie 'Harold & Maude' was
    interesting to say the least.
            Now let's get back to fighting.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61941
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: From "Innumeracy"
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 02:58:55

    "Assume that there is a test for cancer which is 98% accurate; i.e., if
    someone has cancer, the test will be positive 98% of the time, and if one
    doesn't have cancer, the test will be negative 98% of the time.  Assume
    further that .5 percent -- one out of every 200 people -- actually have
    cancer.  Now imagine that you've taken the test and that your doctor
    somberly informs you that you've tested positive.  The question is, how
    depressed should you be?  The surprising answer is that you should be
    cautiously optimistic.  To find out why, let's take a look at the
    conditional probability of your having cancer, given that you've tested
    positive.
    Imagine that 10,000 tests for cancer are administered.  On the average, 50
    of these 10,000 people (.5 percent of 10,000) will have cancer, and so,
    since 98% of them will test positive, we will have 49 positive tests.  Of
    the 9,950 cancerless people, 2% of them will test positive, for a total of
    199 positive tests (.02 times 9,950 = 199).  Thus, of the total 248 positive
    tests (199 plus 49 = 248), most (199) are false positives, and so the
    conditional probability of having cancer given that one tests positive is
    only 49/248, or about 20 percent!  (This relatively low percentage is to be
    contrasted with the conditional probability that one will test positive,
    given that one has cancer, which by assumption is 98 percent).

    "This unexpected figure for a test that we assumed to be 98 percent accurate
    should give legislators pause when they contemplate instituting mandatory
    or widespread testing for drugs or AIDS or whatever.  Many tests are less
    reliable: a recent article in The Wall Street Journal, for example, suggests
    that the well known Pap test for cervical cancer is only 75 percent
    accurate.  Lie detection tests are notoriously innacurate, and calculations
    similar to the above demonstrate why truthful people who flunk polygraph
    tests usually outnumber liars.  To subject people who test positive to
    stigmas, especially when most of them may be false positives, is
    counterproductive and wrong."

    From "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy And Its Consequences", by John
    Allen Paulos.

    Message: 61943
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 03:18:24

    RE:  "The movie 'Harold & Maude' was interesting to say the least."

    Why to say the least, Cliff?  Why don't you try to say the most?  What kind
    of a man says the least when he could be saying the most?  Geesh...my boys
    knew that!

    Really, though, it was a refreshing mini-GT.  I humbly withdraw my assertion
    that you are a "doddering old fool."

    By the way, Sandy, the Robert Redford movie we were trying to figure out the
    name of is called Three Days of the Condor.

    --< Zak Woodruff >--

    Message: 61944
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Abraham Lincoln
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 03:55:21

    [from the first speech in the Lincoln-Douglas Debates]

         "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between
    the white and black races.  There is a physical difference between the two,
    which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid living together upon the
    footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that
    there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the
    race to which I belong having the superior position."

         "I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the
    social and political equality of the white and black races -- I am not, nor
    ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, --nor of
    qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people."

    And that, my friends, is why Abraham Lincoln is on the penny instead of the
    silver-dollar.

    Message: 61945
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/#61911
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 06:05:27

     You didn't see the word Democrate in that message because, to the best of
    my knowledge there is no such word. (smile) You didn't see Democrat either,
    since everyone here is aware of my political affiliation, and I just
    presumed that all would have expected me to vote for at least some of them
    too. The point I was trying to make was that I tend to look at the
    individual and his or her abilities to perform in the post, rather than
    party affiliation. I seem to recall even voting for a Libertarian once, a
    number of years ago. Can't for the life of me remember who (or why), but it
    certainly wasn't because of party! Probably because the individual
    represented the least of three evils.

    Message: 61946
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann?
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 06:08:43

     You have a male neighbor who you know so intimately that he recognized you
    by your teeth?
     Hmmmm. I'll bet you have an interesting little neighborhood there! Peyton
    Place west?
     Just how close are you to your neighbors, anyway?

    Message: 61947
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Heather (Spaz)
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 06:12:21

     I'm really an old timer, and I'm not in the Void. How come? I think that I
    was a regular user of Apollo well before you were old enough to use a
    computer. Well, maybe not THAT long.

    Message: 61948
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 06:23:37

     Your constant referral to me as a bigot really makes you the bigot, not me,
    since you have no real justification for the name calling, a low I have not
    resorted to in our "discussion".
     I'm sure that Ev (the REAL bigot) will appreciate your vote, since he will
    get so few of them. Sorry that you like to vote for sure losers. As
    seemingly inactive as Rose has been, I would rather have 100 of her in
    office than one MEcham. Isn't it wonderful how we are all entitled to our
    opinion? All, apparently, except me of course. As soon as I express one, you
    are all over me like peanut butter and jelly on  bread. Oh well, I guess you
    have to have somebody to vent your unfounded hate on. It may as well be me.
     As to dollar figures, I don't have them readily available, but the point I
    was making was that DeConcini has returned themoney that he got from
    Keating, and McCain hasn't even paid for his plane rides yet, let alone his
    political contributions from Keating. All I have heard from him was that if
    somebody can show him where his acceptance of those funds is illegal, he
    will return them. Big hairy deal! Never mind illegal! What about unethical?
    Apparently, "poor" John couldn't care less about ethical!

    Message: 61949
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 06:26:35

    "If you want access to the void, do what I did....Marry Cliff."
     Now THAT'S what I call THE supreme sacrifice!

    Message: 61950
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Halloween
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 08:44:17

    Re: those egg throwers ... I always expect there to be some problems like
    that - you know, tricks, the other part of treats? Ha. But I will admit,
    except for some toilet papering around the neighborhood, there hasn't been
    too much of that stuff to which I'm highly grateful. I couldn't say that as
    a kid though. We 'tricked' if someone didn't give us a treat. In fact, a lot
    of the time we'd trick anyway! Lord help someone if they wern't home! My
    favorite was to collect doggy do a couple of weeks before Halloween - in a
    hole in the ground, keeping it moist and 'paint like consistancy'. I then
    would put it in a bucket and take a paint brush with me. The trick was to
    paint the door and front porch with it! One awful time I was painting a
    screen door when a woman opened it and it splatter all over her! Gads, did I
    get in trouble! My husband's favorite trick back in a Wyoming rural area was
    to get on horse back, throw a rope around a outhouse and move it off it's
    hole by wrapping the rope around the saddle horn. One time that backfired
    when one of his teachers fell in! Guess she was very fat and got stuck. This
    was all terrible to be sure and I'm glad those days are over with. At least
    I think they are! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61951
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/MLK
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 08:52:36

    If King did indeed say "Burn Baby Burn" - it was certainly no worse than
    what the whites were saying - had been saying - always did say! We are still
    a prejudiced nation - better, but still that way. We have a long way to go.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61952
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 09:26:23

    CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! Loved your post on JT and him being a literate 9-year old!
    Personally, I'd make that 7-year old! He's existing on his past post merits.
    In the last year, he sends noting but sarcastic one liners. Bore! Bore!
    Boring! I never heard of a person going down hill literate wise, but he sure
    appears so. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61953
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 09:52:00

    You have never voted for a Democrate? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61954
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on my teeth
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 09:54:16

    No, I do not know the neighbor intimately. My teeth are individual like
    everyone elses. If you smiled no matter what your make-up was, I'd know who
    it was. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61955
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dandy Sandy
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 09:56:21

    It's not that I wouldn't marry Cliff - but I'll pass on that one for now!
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61956
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on make up
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 09:59:05

    You clown you! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61957
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 12:29:39

    Re:  "Marry Cliff."

    Thanks anyway Sandy.  I think I'll pass.

    Message: 61958
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 12:42:59

    Re:  "My favorite was to collect doggy do a couple of weeks before Halloween
    - in a hole in the ground, keeping it moist and 'paint like consistancy"

    You sound like a real sweetheart back then Ann.  I must admit, I did push
    over a few outhouses.  I remember once a guy was just waiting for us, and
    before we could get a good push in he came tearing out the door with a
    stick.  He almost caught one of us, but I was running in the opposite
    direction.  But that's about the worst I did.

    Message: 61959
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 12:45:00

    Re:  "CLAP! Loved your post on JT and him being a literate 9-year old!"

    Sorry Ann, that wasn't me.  I'll have to give credit to my friend Zak.

    Message: 61960
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak!
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 13:36:41

            Thanks for the movie...  It was very interesting to say the MOST!

    So, I am now just a 'doddering young fool'.....   Thanks again!

    We need more mini-GTs like that!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61961
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 13:57:20

            I keep calling you a 'Bigot' because you keep calling Mr Mecham one
    and he is not here to defend himself.  I also posted the definition of the
    word 'bigot' and the way you attack Mr Mecahm CLEARLY clarifies you are a
    hateful bigot of the worst kind.  You hug the Bible but won't open your eyes
    and try to understand anyone elses viewpoint.  Even when they have been
    cleared of said crimes, making you are a hypocrite as well.
            Here is the meaning again:  READ IT!
            Bigot, a person (Paul Savage) who holds blindly and intolerantly to
    a particular creed, opinion, (Mr Mecham's) etc.

            Speaking of voting for losers...you have not voted for a winning
    president since you have belonged to Apollo... you ALWAYS VOTE for losers!
    This CLEARLY points out you are not in main stream America!

    I do not JUMP on you for every issue...  I agree with you on many things
    like the abortion issue...  then I fight with Ann...  At least she can take
    it with out calling friends of ours 'Bigots' and spreading other half
    truths.  Though I will admit, Sandy knows Mr Mecham better than I.

    While I got your ear..is the Clown Info in the  cmd correct ?
    (found in the Ain menu)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*  Grin...  I don't hate you Paulie!

    Message: 61962
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann on Burn
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 14:05:56

            Ann...  In my book.. TWO WRONGS do not make a RIGHT!  I am fed up,
    paying for what uneducated idiots did generations ago.   So 'Burn, Baby,
    Burn' does not set well with me.   Want your house burnt down because
    someone else did not treat a minority with respect 100 years ago?  You under
    the belief that violence today will erase the hurt of years ago?  I think it
    will create MORE hate.   It would if they burned down my house!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61963
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 15:49:45

    Please do not say bad things about Martin Luther King Jr.  He is not here to
    defend himself.

    Message: 61964
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Union bashing
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 19:14:40

    Was that our favorite former letter-carrier who was engaging in a bit of
    union-bashing with Brian Donnelly on KFYI this morning?

    Message: 61965
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Harold & Maude
    Date: 11/02/89  Time: 19:16:09

    Phew.  Good thing I didn't accept the invitation to the GT, I would have had
    to sue for false advertising.  I've seen H&M many times, but driving to
    Cliff's in the middle of the night to see it instead of the advertised film
    would not have been fun.

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