### Apollo BBS Archive - August 11, 1991

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 7916
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/evidence
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 17:00:56

     So you don't want to believe that all things (humans included) don't
    evolve.  Many of us here say they do, whether we believe in the bibble or
    not.  You say that things only happen because your bibble says so.  Well,
    how can you prove that the bibble is any more than a human artifact that may
    or may not be an account of time in the middle east/southern Europe?????
    You ask us for proof of the process of evolution.  We have cited a fair
    number of examples.  Granted we may not have all the answers and some
    answers may be a little bit on the vague side.  But at least they are better
    than the lame "because the bibble/god says so".

    Message: 7917
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: daryl/evolution
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 17:04:47

     Where do you get the idea that evolution is a religion????????  It is NOT a
    religion, but the mere passing of time along a continuim.  It doesn't care
    if anyone prays to it, calls it god, steals money for it in the name of
    tribute, etc.  It simple is an ongoing, continuious process that has been
    going on for billions of years and will probably do so for a few billion
    more.  Hmmmm...Care to tackle an answer to that one????????

    Message: 7918
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: John/intervention
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 18:41:52

     When one looks at the fossil evidence of change in the earth, "evolutio"
    looks very plausible...I have even heard it speculated that processes that
    look to scientists as completely random, are in some cases being directed,
    but by means that we are unable to observe. (Given some of the puzzles and
    paradoxes of Quantum Mechanics, there are big holes in our understanding of
    processes at the atomic and subatomic level of matter.)
      For the record, I do believe that God created the earth, and that it is a
    result of conscious, intelligent, purposeful design. I am not so sure that
    the Biblical account of the creation is entirely literal, complete, and
    satisfactory...Evolutionary change seems a possible and plausible method of
    creation, but unless and until there is further evidence on both sides of
    the question, I am not going to claim that I "know" the answers...In this
    area, I am willing to be open minded.

    Message: 7919
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Watches and monkeys
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 18:58:18

      At the molecular level, although it has been demonstrated in the lab that
    it is possible for the basic molecules of life to be "constructed" entirely
    at random, and even higher orders of structure appear to 'arrange'
    themselves (under proper conditions), I am not so sure that this process
    continues at increasingly higher levels of complexity.
      (Idle thought....If someone could see an automobile dump which had been
    used continuously over a period of years, would he conclude that automobiles
    had evolved? But then again, automobiles don;t reproduce themselves.)
      Suppose the "evolutionary" changes we see are a result of conscious
    design, and that "natural selection" is not random at all, but proceeding
    according to a plan which is unknown to us and includes factors that we
    are unable to comprehend or percieve?

    Message: 7920
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Wild
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 19:12:50

    #7874:

     GL>>Cliff thought the Barbarian was trying to be offensive by referring to
     GL>>the "bibble".  He could be right.  Only the Barbarian himself can tell
     GL>>us the truth.

    #7916:

     WB>>Many of us here say they do, whether we believe in the bibble or
     WB>>not.  You say that things only happen because your bibble says so.

    Thank you.  I always appreciate getting my questions answered.

    Message: 7921
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Thad/Evolution
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 20:37:37

    No, but if you are a Paleontologist and are able to classify fossils you
    realize that the life forms we see today are related to the life forms found
    in strata millions of years old. You also see the relationships of these
    life forms found to present-day life form{ --- relationships which lead
    inexorably to the fact that evolution has occurred. The question that Darwin
    answered wasn't "Did Evolution occur ?", but "How did Evolution occur?"
    The evidence is there.

    Message: 7922
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod / Former Beliefs
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 22:55:02

         Sounds like your "head trip" was based on personal superstition.

    Message: 7923
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gordon/Appendix
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 22:57:14

        I think I heard something regarding the use of the appendix.  I will
    have to try and look it up.  Talk to you soon.

    Message: 7924
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann / Evolution
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:00:58

         I have not been ridiculing you.  I have asked you to prove that
    evolution has solid evidence to back it up.  You have only provided theories
    and suppositions, and end each one with the conclusion that there is
    "overwhelming evidence" (of which I have seen none to date), and that this
    "overwhelming evidence" is obvious enough for a total novice to recognize.

         I still await this overwhelming evidence that you and Wild Barbarian
    seem to have such an overabundance of.  C'mon, why you holding out? It's not
    cool to hoard evidence!

    Message: 7925
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod / Proof Of God
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:05:05

        Rod, again I ask the question that I have asked others that have asked
    me to prove the existence of God and have not gotten a reply to.

        What evidence are you willing to accept?

        What type of evidence would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt in your
    mind that God exists?

    Message: 7926
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Barbarian
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:14:23

         You say that evolution is "an ongoing, continuous process that has been
    going on for billions of years and will probably do so for a few billion
    more."  Can you prove it?  Were you there?  The answer to both questions is
    NO.  You rely on faith, and trust that what the scientists say is true.
         Your definition of religion seems to imply that a god is necessary.
    But just ask American Atheists, and they will not deny that they are a
    religion.  A religion is an adherence to a particular set of beliefs, not
    necessarily a set of beliefs that includes God/a god.

    Message: 7927
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/head trip
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:38:52

    It was based on personal superstition.  At the time I called myself a
    Christian just as you now do.  Of course your brand of it is correct and
    mine wasn't.

    Message: 7928
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/proof
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:41:31

    Anything, anything at all that's solid and concrete.  Your god wouldn't have
    to actually show itself, just do a big skywriting routine that would be
    impossible for earthlings to fake.  It could say something like, "Hi Rod,
    how's it hanging", or anything for that matter.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4982
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Melissa Pee
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 10:33:29

    MD> In any case, people have already addressed your ignorance
    MD> about our supposed ignorance as to what the police were really
    MD> doing there.  If cops really want to stop "criminal activity in
    MD> their area", why don't they get out of the porno theatres and back
    MD> on the streets.  [?]

    Because if they went to the streets, they would catch less drug crime
    than they would in the porno theatres. Simple. Something I have been
    trying to point out to you ignorant fucks for awhile. But your blind assed
    attitude is that the Cops can do no good, they "run roughshod over poor
    people" and because they are busting people breaking the law you cry foul.
    Note: When the cops aren't there to arrest the jerk who cut you off in
    traffic, your response is "Where are the cops when you need them?"
    So what I have seen posted in response is a bunch of whining about the
    cops being bored and busting the small time druggies. I'd say it's
    better than sitting at a doughnut shop....like Rod Williams wanted us
    to believe before. I'd say it was a great job they were doing if they
    even prevented *one* coke-snorting, LSD sucking, beer guzzling brain-dead
    pervert from driving his 2 tons of mobile steel into an oncomming car
    with a family inside.
    If porno **WAS** crimeless, I'm positive they *wouldn't* be wasting their
    time, but I have first-hand experience porno attracts crime like shit
    attracts flies. Quit whining about poor PEE WEE. He fucked up.

    Message: 4983
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Sherif's response
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 10:42:45

    I aggree on the asinine value of the response given. That Sheriff should
    have his job taken away because it sounds like he has forgotten the
    main thrust of his position. It smacks of the pervading attitude we
    see in public office anymore; 'I'm above your laws and I'm here to stay'.

    What one police force does on one side of the country compared to another
    police force on the opposite end has nothing to do with the crime at
    hand. Although I wont go as far as to say that the cops are perfect
    and everything they do has my blessings.
    It may well be an indication of frustration throughout the U.S. The cops
    begin to go over the line to get some job satisfaction. I've heard it
    before time and time again.
    But that's another post entirely.

    Like I said in my last post, porn shops attract crime like shit attracts
    flies and the flies are what the cops are apparently after. They might
    even mop up some of the shit (Child porn, Teenage prostitution etc)
    while they're at it.
    I get the impression people like Bill, Melissa, Rod and Gordon would rather
    have the cops turn a blind eye to the porno scene than to go in there
    and bust the drug dealers and such in exchange for spending their time
    on the streets where they *might* see something happen.

    Message: 4984
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: ignorant fucks
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 15:17:13

    Are you a Christian ? How can you claim to be one and say "ignorant fuck"?

    Message: 4985
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 15:47:05

    How many of those arrested along with Pee Wee were charged with drug
    offenses?  How many were *only* charged with other offenses?

    Message: 4986
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 16:26:43

    I agree, Pee Wee fucked up.  But the reason I want the cops back on the
    streets is not to arrest druggies, per se.  I think the gang violence,
    robbery and other such "major" crimes are more important than arresting
    people for masterbating in an adult theatre.  The prostitution rings, big
    drug smugglers, etc are usually the detectives' jobs, something that takes
    planning.  These were just bored traffic cops (or the like) that found an
    easy target.

    Message: 4987
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Green/Question
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 19:04:19

    Can you point to the line in the Bible where it says that Christians
    shouldn't say "fuck"?

    Message: 4988
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Gordon/4987
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 20:40:41

    Yes, thank you o benevolent straight man. James 1:26:
    "A man may think he is religious, but if he has no control over his tongue,
    he is deceiving himself; that man's religion is futile."

    Message: 4989
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Words
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 21:19:28

    What do you suppose were "bad" words back when they were writing the bible?

    Message: 4990
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Beating Off
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:54:11

    If someone is jerking his meat in a theater which has children present then
    that person should be taken out and be made to seek treatment.

    But in a XXX adult theatre, that's different.  I'd bet that some people go
    to them not expecting to whip out their wang and having a climax.  I have
    seen a total of one x rated movie in my life.  It was a video tape that a
    friend loaned me.  I really didn't know what to expect, what my reaction
    would actually be.  I can tell you frankly that I was coming all over the
    place way before its end.  And that is the truth. And it just so happened
    that there wasn't a female around at the time.

    Perhaps Pee Wee was just killing a little time between appointments and
    didn't realize that his Joe would get real big.  I don't really know because
    I am too far removed from the facts just as the rest of us are.

    FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1755
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Review
    Subject: Pornos
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 21:24:09

    What were/are the best porno films?  I have heard that _The Devil in Ms.
    Jones_ is a classic but found that to be pretty weird.  I haven't seen _Deep
    Throat_ but don't know if I should bother.  Most sex movies they show on
    cable are cut up and really stupid.  I was just wondering if there were any
    out there worth watching.

    Message: 1756
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: porno
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:55:48

    Joel Genesys loaned me one about 7 years ago that was pretty good but I
    forget its name.

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 2070
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ms. Dee
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 23:16:25

        That's just it.  You CAN'T buy the record.  It was on a very small indie
    label that has been out of business almost eight years.

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 77492
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Green
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 09:47:51

    You continue to confirm my conviction that there is nothing in your
    religion that is real. Keep it up.

    Message: 77493
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 10:32:07

    Then it would appear your convictions are shallow and unfounded,
    because you need someone to massage them to stay in place?

    Message: 77494
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Religion
    Subject: witness
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 15:16:16

    I don't see how it makes me weak. If you say you are a Christian, your
    life had better show some evidence that you are a part of the body
    of Christ. If there is no evidence at all --- indeed counter evidence
    of mean-spiritedness --- I conclude there is nothing to your claims
    of your "special" relationship with God. I also suggest you read St. Paul
    and see what he has to say about the life of a Christian.

    Message: 77495
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/James
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 17:58:10

      Hmmm... I wonder. You might have guessed that I am a 'Mormon', from one of
    my earlier posts. James White is as "anti-Mormon" as anyone I have ever met,
    but from what he told me  our earlier encounters, he is not ignorant about
    what "mormons" really do teach...but he persists in proclaiming that they
    teach this and that doctrine...
      I have found that most people believe what they want to believe,
    especially in religious matters. I would be interested in discussing what my
    beliefs are to someone who is genuinely interested, but I see no point in
    debating them with someone who has already decided that they are so much
    foolishness or worse.

    Message: 77496
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad/last
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 20:29:33

    I'd be interested in your beliefs.

    Message: 77497
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad/Porno
    Date: 08/11/91  Time: 22:30:03

      I think it is standard proceedure for any person who becomes
    divorced to portray their ex-spouse as the lowest form of vermin. My wife's
    sister also got divorced, and during and after the breakup she went back
    over every minute of every day they were together with fine a toothed comb,
    looking for perversities to accuse him of. I will not repeat the far-fetched
    and baseless things she said about him, but they were most non-non-heinous,
    as Bill and Ted might say. She eventually got over that phase of total
    hatred, and even admitted once that she wished the marriage hadn't been
    disolved. There is no person more ruthless and unfettered by the truth than
    one who is in the midst of denying to themselves that they could be partly
    responsible for a relationship that didn't work. I think divorce lawyers
    must advise in favor of cooking up evidence of the ex-spouse's bad character
    as ammunition in the battle over child custody, etc.
      Of course, it's possible that the guy really did turn mean, or change his
    values (meaning the guy you were talking about). But laying the blame for it
    on pornography is probably unjustified. For example, if he was of the view
    that there was nothing wrong with pornography and enjoyed looking at it,
    but his wife berated him for it constantly and told him he wasn't a fit
    husband, etc., until he began to feel that he had married into a mental
    prison where he didn't belong, then it could have been this difference of
    opinion over the larger issue of personal freedom which drove them apart.
      This is only an example of one way it could work, but my point is that the
    source of this data is probably biased and that the whole story may be
    a much better one to draw any conclusions from than what we have here. D.H.