### Apollo BBS Archive - June 8, 1990

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 3874
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Up Yours
    Subject: Everyone
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 02:42:25

    Bill B.; You do see my point then. My problem through all of this is
    the fact that you cannot justify bashing one person for his posts (mine)
    and take a blind-eye to the *rest*. That's exactly what happened.
    Miz Dee wanted some gratification after her dismal crash and burn in the
    debates. Her only avenue it seems has been to try to play favorites
    with Cliff and get him to come down on material that she pretends to
    find objectionable.
    I realize you don't pretend to be offended and as I have clearly stated
    before it is not my wish to offend you by any means.
    Your initial complaint on the board seemed to be her only avenue for an
    "ally" so she took it. Only it's backfired big time.
    Like a spiteful child, she's cut her nose off to spite her face.
    Myself, I really don't care either way. It's either something like this
    or Religious debates all over again.
    Apollo is the melting pot for some truly good interaction. It's sad
    that one person is shallow enough to get this to such a stage.
    But that's O.k. I'm not pretending to be an Angel in any of this
    but I think you understand my objections. I wasn't objecting to your
    requests....just the selective way you attacked me only.

    So now we have a situation where MIZ DEE (AKA the SEX POLICE) has started
    a neo-nazi gestapo for anyone daring to utter uteris or belch backsides.

    Message: 3875
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 06:12:53

    I don't give a damn what you say.  I only want Cliff to be fair.  I wish the
    public board was not censored.  However, I don't think any of you are
    listening to me at this point.  There have been numberous posts against me,
    saying that I have done this or that (sex police, etc) and only a few posts
    by me, which I thought were very clear and to the point.
    As for Carter's personal attacks, I don't know why he goes on and on
    defending himself.  If he really thinks he is right, why does have to prove
    it to everyone, uncluding himself, in so many messages and in such a way as
    to put me down for everything from being a censor to a porn queen?  (a bit
    inconsistant, don't you think?)
    And Cliff, my ex-boyfriend's mother was from Austrailia.  I think I know a
    joke when I see it.  And from his last post, that started off saying he
    wouldn't throw a brick, to the middle of the post that described what he
    would put on this note...
    The more he trys to convince me the more he convinces me I was right.

    Message: 3876
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Dee...
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 11:37:56

            Ha ha ha, I thought the note was funny....  But again, you do
    NOT know MIKE Carter!

            As for Mikes Insults on the Public board, I saw nothing wrong with
    "Up Yours" but I did have a problem when Mike got personal with other more
    elaborate sexual verbage.  I would rather *NOT* see name calling get that
    hateful.  It may have been in jest by Mike, but to the person targeted for
    those kinds of slams, it is anything but funny.

            Words such as 'ass', 'Got Balls' (as Zak used it) should not be
    offensive for most people when used in a funny or un-insulting way.
    Rod's use of "Fornicate" was used in such a way the post was ment to insult.
    I was insulted anyway...  and that does COUNT!

            Maybe all the users should read the ules once again for the
    first time.  It's one thing to disagree with another user, and another thing
    to spend three-quarters of your counter post using colorful verbage calling
    the user in opposition names.  Mike does this wery well, and that is a
    problem.   However, Miz Dee got carried away attacking every thing said by
    Mike as a sexual slam.   This just went to far.

            Continued on next post!

    Message: 3877
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: the SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Bleep Words
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 12:00:23

            Go back to posting on the PUBlic board and just be *REASONABLE*, as
    you would expect an adult to be.  If I should find the insult to be
    not resonable, I will either ZAP the post, or edit out the language in
    question.  If I do this on the PUBlic board and you have a gripe about it.
    Bring that gripe to this SIG or maybe even the $tatus SIG since ALL members
    have that SIG in their profile for access.  Do NOT do what ZAK does and
    smear it all over the PUBlic board...  You will loose you $tatus in an
    instant!  This is MY board and I will be fair with you, if you are fair with
    me.

            The PUBlic board has got to be a G rating....  Children do log in
    from time to time...  They don't join nowdays as Apollo does not play games
    such as D & D.  We seem to attract only adults, but even many adults will
    not see the humor in what looks like hatefull attacks.  I have had many
    first time users leave me mail wondering about all the fighting, and then
    they never log back in to read my reply.   I do not like Mike Middleton's
    ideas on banning guns or his view of the Bible, but I hardly want him to
    leave the system.  His posts are valued by me, and they show you a view
    point that you may even learn something from....even if it hurts.

            Be fair... don't grip to be spiteful!  I will listen!  And for God's
    sake, if someone complains about your post, live up to it like an adult!
    I make boanheaded errors, and I know it!
                            I have spoken!  -Mighty SysOp

    Message: 3878
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: $#!+
    Subject: Mr. Carter
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 15:01:24

    > You do see my point then. My problem through all of this is
    > the fact that you cannot justify bashing one person for his
    > posts (mine) and take a blind-eye to the *rest*.

            I see your point exactly, Mike.  And fully agree with it.
            However, in my opinion, it has been your comments that have
    been taken with a "blind-eye."  Perhaps not this particular time
    (Cliff says he hadn't been on the board and I believe him.), but
    certainly in the past.  No, I can't cite examples.
            After the recent bashing Rod took I wasn't about to sit by
    and let your public outburst go.
            Where did Melissa post something, publicly, that you found
    objectionable?  She recanted what you said, and that was perhaps
    faulty judgment, but other than that, what was there?
            And I'm not so sure I've seen any examples of a so-called
    "Monthly rage of insanity" from Melissa.  She seemed to be
    holding her own quite well.
            Mike, I think you're being petty and trying to get back at
    those of us who objected to what you posted.  If there are any
    "rages of insanity" here they are yours; and they're more daily
    than monthly.  That's disappointing because I generally find
    Apollo to be a source of reasoned, adult discussion.  Well,
    occasionally at least.

    Message: 3879
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: CLIFF/1 of 2
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 15:02:07

    > Blame Miz Dee for the level of the 'Squeaky Clean' campaign.  With
    > out her, we would not have banned such things as "Up Yours" and
    > other simple harmless phrases...
            That's unfair, Cliff.  Melissa only complained about something to
    which she had a right to complain, and only after I did, too.  To my
    knowledge, her posts on the non-mos side of Apollo have always
    been squeaky clean.  You're placing blame on one who objected to the
    transgressions of others rather than on those who transgressed in the
    first place.  To my way of thinking both Melissa and I, acting
    separately (There's been no non-public correspondence between us on
    this or any other matter.)  were both only trying to uphold Apollo's
    long-held standards.

    > By the way Bill B., did my Dog story upset you? msg 66307
            No.  Your use of "$hit" was objectionable, but it's been done so
    many times before I felt there was no use in complaining.  Besides, I
    felt it would do harm to the points I'm currently trying to make.

    > This is silly... I will shut down the PUBlic board to all out side
    > non-members if you guys don't get real.
            I don't blame you for being frustrated, Cliff.  All I ask is that
    you continue to apply Apollo's ules fairly and with common sense.
    (CONT'D)

    Message: 3880
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: CLIFF/ 2 of 2
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 15:02:41

    > If Zak does not remove his word 'Testicle' by morning, do you
    > want me to remove his $tatus? Come on, egg me on...give me the
    > challenge.  Dee? Dog?  Carter?  Bill?

    I'm sorry if you feel I've been egging you on, Cliff.  That's
    really not my intent.

    > I won't do it, but you guys are going nuts on me.  let's do a
    > livable real approach.

    We've had one for years.  This whole ruckus started (this time)
    because I complained about the language used by Mike Carter.  He
    should be judged by the same standards as Rod or Zak or myself.
    Why does my request that Mike be censured (NOT "censored") cause
    such a commotion when complaints against Rod or Zak do not?

    Message: 3881
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Thanks
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 15:35:07

    ...to Dean and Bill.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  Mostly because
    I've given up trying.

    Message: 3882
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Dee
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 18:17:49

            Don't give up trying Dee, that is NOT what I was saying.
    However, where was your complaint about Zak?  Why only Mike Carter?
    If you want me to enforce the "Up Yours" that you listed as one amoung the
    other gripes..  do you REALLY want that enforced for everyone that "Up
    Yours" can NOT be used?  It is not profane language, but you did object to
    it.  You say fair, or do you mean you just don't want Mike Carter saying
    those words.   This is where I am confused....

            The "If the dog had not stopped to shit, It could have caught
    the rabbit" is a little story in wisdom.  The word 'shit' was not said to
    offend, but was an important part of the story.  Simple fact of life.
            I honestly want the board kept a readable source of enjoyment for
    all, but how far do you want this 'Sqeaky Clean' to go?  I changed '$hit' to
    'Poop'...but do you feel that is also just as offensive?  Should we stop
    writing to end the offensivness of writing?

            I find Roger Mann's idea the American public should be REGISTERD to
    have a fire arm or to not have one at all.  I am more offended by that then
    anyother thing he could possibly call me or say.  But do I want his post
    censored off the board... HELL NO!  So tell me Bill and Dee and Zak and Rod
    and Hawley and Roger ....  the list of words and thoughts you want
    banned from Apollo.  I will bet you can't come up with a list that will
    agree with anyone elses list.  Yet you expect me to do this with out flaw.

    Message: 3883
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Bill B
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 18:34:01

            First off, I do think the PUBlic board should be kept cleanner then
    it has been.
            Second, Miz Dee posted something on the LATe Night Sig thinking it
    was also an X-RATED SIG...  Mike said something, and then Miz Dee attacked
    back at Mike.  In Mikes post there were some words that I thought were out
    of line, but after reading Miz Dee's complaint, she listed things like
    "Up Yours" as profane.  She complained about "Throwing a brick though a
    window"...  and on and on.  In all honestly, she did not think Mike should
    have posted his thoughts on the subject at all. She was even upset that Mike
    was on TV for the peaceful protest march we did on Memorial day.

            On the other hand, I thought Mike came down hard on Miz Dee as
    well.... Too hard, as I had already politly told her the LATe Night SIG was
    not R-Rated.  Her mistake is understandable and she Stopped such post right
    away.   I have no complaint there...  But Mike rags on Dee and Dee rags on
    Mike.  What is a Sysop to do?

            Bill, I had no problem with your complaint...and I was off the
    system for one day and was not able to take care of it as fast as it should
    have been done.  In this time period, Dee probably though I was letting Mike
    get away with it, when that is not the way it was.  I Understand how this
    could upset anyone.  Fair is fair..  Now Rod thinks I don't follow my own
    rules..  Someone please tell him I do edit and fix my posts when I slip up.

    Message: 3884
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cliff?
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 20:23:32

    In your last post, I think you are mixing up political speech with speech
    that takes exception to ules-flouting messages.  How can you
    misunderstand Dee's complaints about Carter's attitude on guns with her
    comments on his language and attacks on users?

    Message: 3885
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Beyond...
    Subject: Shooting off
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 23:46:32

    I sit on the edge of my couch with the loaded gun in my hand.  It's slick
    black surface feels nice against my hot skin.  The fan is blowing slowly,
    back and forth, attempting to bring life into the dead air.  The radio is
    talking at me, the tv is flashing images but none of it makes any sence.  I
    reach for my vibrator and burn my hand on the metal:  it has been on all
    day.  It has been over worked today, just like me.  I pick it up again by
    the handle and place the hot metal on the seam of my jeans.  I can still
    feel the heat through the tough layer of blue.  With my other hand, I bring
    the gun to my face.  It's cold steel tickles the small hairs on my face as I
    drag it's barrel over my cheeks, over my neck, up to my mouth.  I lick the
    tip as I push it over my lips.  I deep throat it, letting my tongue play
    with the trigger.  I feel the heat in my pussy begin to rise with the
    vibrations from my over worked toy.  I unbutton my jean shorts and slip them
    off one leg, exposing my naked snatch.  I reach for an ice cube and drop it
    into my wet well for a few seconds.  Then, popping it pass the barrel in my
    mouth, I suck hard as I place the burning metal onto my clit.  I bite down
    hard into ice and metal, the ice crushing, the metal biting back.  I choke
    down the tears as I drop one hand down to my breast, pinching my nipple.  I
    bring the gun down slowly, between my breasts, over my stomach and lightly
    tease the inside of my legs.  "This time is it.  This time I'll really do
    it," I think.  I feel the cold edge of the gun waiting to enter its target.
    I swollow what's left of the ice and drop to the floor.  I turn round so my
    back is at the flashing tv and noisy radio that I can't really see or hear.
     I stare up at the blank walls as I slowly push the gun into my cunt.

    Message: 3886
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Beyond...
    Subject: Pull my trigger...
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 23:57:25

    I reach between my legs and place the vibrator on my clit as I rock back and
    forth onto the gun.  I buck wildly as I bite into the sofa, tearing it with
    my teeth.  I feel that sweet feeling begin to spread from my lips and I
    try to stop it.  I freeze.  The gun is halfway inside of me.  I dropped the
    vibrator a few inches from my clit, the heat still rising, my heat still
    climbing.  "This time I'm going to do it," I command.  And I know it's time.
    I bring the buzzer back up to my pussy, leaving right where it left off.  I
    position my finger on the trigger of the gun as I continue to pump it into
    my wet cunt.  The radio and tv plant pictures on the wall in front of me in
    neon and I close my eyes to block Him out.  The noice engulfs my ears with
    screams and yelling.  I realize the screams are my own and I am beginning to
    come.  I wait until I find I am decending my climax and shout and shoot:
    "He'll never have me again.  NEVER!"
    My come and blood mix as I slump onto the couch, leaving my memory as my
    memories leave me.

    Message: 3887
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: wisdom tooth
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 01:12:15

    A classic example of a misplaced aphorism.  If the little dog had not
    stopped to shit, it would have suffered toxic shock.  A moribund dog cannot
    catch rabbits, smarmy parables notwithstanding.

    Message: 3888
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Re-BuTTal
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 01:15:34

    Er, you want I should get a sponge?

    Message: 3889
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 07:40:50

            Thanks for the additional history, Cliff.  I'm rarely up
    early (or late) enough to log in to the ate Night SIG and
    wasn't aware that Mike and Melissa (Sounds like a pop duo from
    the 60s, no?) were at each other there, too.
            One of my younger boys is currently in the "...but I didn't
    MEAN to..." stage of avoiding responsibility.  In your story
    about the little dog, "shit" might not be intended to offend, but
    surely would offend some readers.  Your point can be made in
    another way and should be.  I agree with Beau that you're mixing
    the censorship of ideas (which none of us supports) with the
    censorship of certain expressions (which, it would seem, a large
    number of us supports).
            I'm sure you, more than just about anyone, knows how
    difficult it is to tell when someone's joking on a BBS and when
    they're serious.  Maybe we should encourage the use of
    "emoticons" (Those little ASCII faces such as  :)  ) or a simple
    "" to indicate when a poster is joking.  I, for one, cannot
    tell when Mike writes in jest and his attacks, if taken at face
    value, do get tiresome.
            As for the list of offensive words you requested, there can
    be none; and to try and build one is folly.  You know how to
    behave in public.  Apply that knowledge here.

    Message: 3890
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Up Yours
    Subject: Oh My!
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 07:41:30

            A rather nice mix of sex and horror, Melissa.  It was
    obvious from the start what was going to happen (Jeez, it was
    hard not to say "coming" there.), but sort of like watching
    something horrible on the news:  riveting in a sick way.
            I sure hope Jan Brewer doesn't see this.  All you could have
    added to make her happier would be to have Ozzy Osborn on the
    radio and MTV on the television.
            And be careful about mixing horror and sex:  Sex is often
    horrible enough on its own.  :)

    Message: 3891
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Dog on Dee
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 08:29:32

            It is you who is confused.  First off, Dee has the right to have her
    view on guns.  I however do not see her view as being negative.  I was
    however concerned that when one complains about 'Up Yours' from Mike Carter,
    then lets Zak post something like 'Genitals' on the PUBlic board... and
    keeps quite.  This leads me to believe, it is okay for Dee's friends to post
    gray area words, but not Mike.   Is this PERSONAL, or is Dee truly concerned
    with the quality of the lic board.

            I would like to think this is over...I will try and use good
    judgment in keeping the PUBlic area 'Sqeaky Clean'.  I can do this BETTER
    with YOUR help...  YOUR being ALL the $tatus users.  I find it no fun to Zap
    or Edit posts.  I *HATE* it in fact.  But I want complaints to be FAIR!  If
    you complain about Mike for one word, and don't say anything about Rod, then
    we still have a problem.

            Speaking of Rod...  I did NOT edit out 'ass' in Dean Hathaways post.
    I DID edit my posts that I got complaints on....   ules apply to SysOP
    as well as you.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 3892
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: JESUS CHRIST
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 08:45:36

    I TOLD you, Cliff, that I hadn't seen Zak's message until the day after it
    was posted and I DID say that the word "Balls" should be deleted.  Just
    because I didn't know the minute he said it doesn't mean I think it's ok.
    I responded about it as soon as I saw it.
    NOW then.  Up yours.  I was only pointing out that Mike seems to use a lot
    of anal insults and was trying to get a rise out of him.  I could care less
    that anyone said it;  words are not offensive to me.  GEEZZ.  Can we get on
    with life now?

    Message: 3893
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question ?
    Subject: Bill on sex
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 08:48:33

    "is often horrible enough on its own"?
    Now that is an interesting statement.  Would you mind explaining?

    Message: 3894
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Testicles??
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 09:36:50

    What is so bad about the word 'testicles' being on the public board? Isn't
    that what octipus' have? Hahahahahahahahahaha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3895
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: last/Octipussies
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 12:25:04

    Only the males.

    Message: 3896
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Kids
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 12:26:37

    Any kid who is capable enough to use a computer and figure out how to log
    on and read messages most probably knows more than you or I about sex and
    dirty words.   -Rod

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1337
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 01:39:31

    Oh Lordy.....

    Message: 1338
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Piss on it!
    Subject: SLEEP?
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 01:54:08

         You always seemed like such a polite lad in public......

    Message: 1339
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 06:14:41

    Yeah, until he started throwing bricks...

    Message: 1340
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/COS
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 08:06:30

      It's a thought, but considering the messages which intervene between your
    question and this answer, maybe one unrestricted SIG is more than enough for
    me.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 1341
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike C.
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 11:05:29

    Well I've got to admit you still hold the prize for the best insults! No one
    is your peer. Your imagination is supurb - so is your syntax. I'm not
    joking. I enjoy them fully. You never cease to amaze me. -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. BTW - I download your headass picture. It's an old one, we have it
    printed out some where, but it looks good in VGA! I also like your added
    addition of the gradient fill on the lake Pleasant pix too.

    Message: 1342
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Deep Doo Doo!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 13:05:14

    Hee-hee...

    Message: 1343
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Deep Doo Doo!
    Subject: last/yup!
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 12:29:22

    And I'm saving the best for later.  Do I feel like Rushdie or what?

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 66370
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: BECK/ALAMO
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 01:51:58

         Yes, I am familiar with the Tony Alamo Church.  He's just another
    crackpot spreading hatred in the name of "God".  I pretty much agree with
    Savage's post earlier on this subject.
         Have you had the pleasure to see the Jack Chick Christian mini-comics?
    (While we're on the subject of kooks.....)

    Message: 66371
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Rot Williams
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 02:14:15

    For someone with the massive intolerance you exude like the stench from
    a dead skunk, you sure have the mouth to match it.
    Just as your wildest wide-eyed hate fit against anything no matter how
    remotely connected with Theism is your spiteful despise for someone
    you can't convince into your certifiably brain-warped senselessness.

    Awww shuckola, Rotty, I see you're visibly upset.
    That's what you wanted in the first place though...me thinks you
    need it...kinda like a junkie needs LSD...right?

    Message: 66372
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: socialized medicine
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 04:47:31

    Perhaps a good place to begin would be to require hospitals to make a
    available a comprehensive list of current fees.  Fees for rooms, procedures,
    and supplies can vary dramatically from hospital to hospital, so the
    consumer should be armed with cost information before making a choice.

    Message: 66373
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on guns
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 05:10:27

     So criminals should not be allowed to obtain guns. Agreed. Now, how do we
    stop them? Pass another law? Enforce the laws already on the books that
    clearly state that felons may not possess firearms?
     If a criminal mind is going to ignore the laws against robbery, burglary,
    murder or whatever his "thing" is, what makes you think that he is going to
    obey a law that says he can't have a tool with which to ply his trade?

    Message: 66374
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on guns
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 07:37:47

    I suggest at least a 24 hour waiting period in order to
    check police records for any criminal record.

    Message: 66375
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Roger/Guns
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 08:33:04

      The NRA recently worked on a project with the Justice Department to check
    out the feasibility of doing rapid background checks on prospective gun
    purchasers. The idea was to create a database which would contain the
    identies of people NOT legally eligible to purchase a firearm. The system
    would have kept new guns from being sold directly to criminals, without
    infringing the law-abiding purchasers rights any further.
      The study found that law enforcement records are nearly worthless when it
    comes to clearing or denying a purchase. The target had been an up to date
    database which could be accessed right at the point of sale, but the finding
    was that the necessary records are not available in a form which would allow
    background checks to be done in ANY reasonable amount of time. These records
    are in a different form in every jurisdiction, and they often do not reflect
    the final outcome of the case, such as conviction or aquital.
      Given the actual state of information available, waiting periods for
    background check purposes are a farce. The check is not really being done to
    any large degree even in places where the waiting period exists. California
    has had a long waiting period since before I moved there in '76. The police
    effort required for checking out every new gun purchaser is a huge drain on
    law enforcement resources, which would be much more effective if used to
    deal with actual crimes.
      As CLiff mentioned, a waiting period is more likely to keep a law-abiding
    person from getting a gun when they need it for self-defense than it is to
    keep a person from getting one to attack someone. The total percentage of
    guns used in crime is so tiny that a blanket waiting period is a bad idea.

    Message: 66376
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Savage/Seat Belt
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:03:33

      You misunderstood.
      I didn't say that insurance companies would charge lower rates for those
    who agreed to wear seat belts; I suggested that they charge lower rates for
    those who wear seat belts.
      That is, if you opt for the lower-cost insurance, but are injured while
    *not* wearing one, you are simply not covered.  You pay your medical
    expenses out of your own pocket.
      So who's going to be hurt by a policy like this?  Only *stupid* people.
    And they probably won't notice.  It's simply a matter of protecting people
    from the stupidity of others, but not from their own.
      It's like smoking -- there should be places (like smokers' own homes)
    where they can poison themselves all they want.  But non-smokers should not
    have to put up with the second-hand poison.

                                            =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 66377
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/ditto
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:04:35

       Yeah -- put the expense on those who agree to bear it, and reduce the
    expense for the rest of us.  What do you have against that?

                                             =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 66378
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hoot!
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:19:05

    I like your idea regarding seat belts. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66379
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/socialized
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:21:47

    Ok then, what is your answer to the problem? With our longivity, chances are
    we're all going to get sick - have major surgery - a major illness,
    therefore, the chances of losing everything is great. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66380
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on socialized
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:32:33

    #66344 ... I had to laugh at that re: 'if it's anything like in the
    military' ..... I felt the same way when my husband had the operation at the
    veteran's hospital! It was scarey! They practically ignored him for the most
    part. But, he did get an excellent operation at the hands of very good
    doctors I will say that. At least it was there for him and he had a choice.
                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66381
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Pauley
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 10:52:17

    I have a question Pauley. Yesterday while out with hubby, we met 3 'Born
    again Christians'! Now I won't go into detail as to why/how we met them
    because that's beside the point. After we got home, we discussed this thing
    and came to the conclusion we don't understand what 'Born again Christian'
    really means??!! These men all readily admitted to being previous alcholoics
    too and their life was going nowhere - one even on the very brink of
    suicide. I say a B.A.C. is one that believes in God but has slacked off at
    some point in their life and they mean born again as an emotional experience
    of coming back to God. Right? I assume one does not need to be an alcholic
    to do this? I also assume that an athiest that suddenly finds God/Jesus
    could not be considered a B.A.C.??!! Please believe Pauley these questions
    are not to start a religious war at all. We really want to know. These men
    certainly impressed us. We have heard the expression Born again Christian
    all of our lives - yet, perhaps we do not know what this truly means. See?
    We were just raised to believe. I know that the Catholics do not believe in
    being born again. Do you consider yourself born again? If so, would you
    elaborate on that?
    Want to know something else funny about yesterday? We took a drive last
    night and our little V-Weep V.W. just quit on us way out in the toolies on
    Northern. No one would stop but an Assembly of God minister! He helped us
    push! All of these B.A.C that we met yesterday all went to the Assembly of
    God Church! Strange day er? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66382
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: ann/BAC
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 12:40:17

    Strange you should mention Slack.

    Message: 66383
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/derivatives
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 12:53:31

    Well, in message number 66340 you stated, erroneously, that "If a curve is
    expressed as Kx**3, then the first derivative of this curve is the rate of
    change of the curve itself..."

    Now, perhaps I misunderstood you, but the first derivative does not express
    change of curvature.  The first derivative expresses the slope of the curve
    "at a point."  The SECOND derivative expresses the rate of change of this
    slope, also "at a point," or in other words, the rate of change of the
    curve.

    Message: 66384
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jack Chick comics
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 12:57:58

    No, tell us about them...

    Message: 66385
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 14:45:48

      I think that resolving the problems of unlimited liability for health care
    providers (i.e. they can be sued for $29 million and lose, when their
    greatest possible gain for the proceedure might be less than $1000) and the
    forced subsidizing of non-paying patients by paying patients would allow our
    existing health care industry to become more efficient and affordable. This
    would be a better alternative than a forced socialized system. I am
    interested in how costs are kept down under socialized medicine. I would
    guess that they limit liability in some way and possibly subsidize the whole
    program from general tax revenues as well.
       If you assume that everyone will have a major health problem sooner or
    later, then there is no reason for socialized medicine or even health
    insurance. All such schemes depend on there being enough people who pay into
    the system without making major claims to pay all the costs of those who do.
    If the system was designed so that everyone could be a major beneficiary,
    then the taxes/payments would have to be so high that the average person
    could just keep the money and pay all their own medical bills. Because most
    people will not require more in expenses than they paid in, in the real
    world, insurance can and does work and it makes sense for the average person
    to have it.
       Specialized insurances which offered greater flexibility could also
    reduce costs (such as Steve S.'s low-cost auto insurance which does not
    cover the policy holder if they are in an accident and not wearing a seat
    belt). Less interference in medical and insurance issues by government would
    allow cheaper alternatives and bring costs down. See You Later,  Dean H.

    Message: 66386
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CLIFF
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 14:59:59

    > I plead guilty Bill.... get a rope?

    I'd prefer to shoot you.  8^O

    > I feel most users agree that the PUBlic board, the SHOW CASE >
    of Apollo, needs to be kept 'Squeaky Clean'..... even if I am
    >  not sure what 'Squeaky Clean' is.

    Bravo!  There's absolutely nothing wrong with not being able to
    rationally explain everything you feel is right!  Someone's got
    to make judgments and "I know what it is, but I know it when I
    see it" is as good a reason as any else!

    > We would like more $tatus users on Apollo, but I fear we drive
    > too many away, always sounding like a WAR board, then a bunch
    > of friends who get over zealous in our posted debates.

    Would that we could all keep Apollo's ules, especially the
    last, in mind when we post.

    Message: 66387
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Booklets
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 15:46:02

    Coming to a mailbox near you!
    Now taking orders for "Doing Dishes"($3.00) and "Pool Side"($1.00), the new
    stories.  Also available are "Tanning Bed"($3.00) and "Loving Thyself"($1.00

    Send E-mail here to order or write to
    Mychele
    P.O. Box 1892
    Tempe, AZ  85280-1892

    Message: 66388
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Glands
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 16:35:33

    Re:  "I don't believe in forced charity."

    That is an interesting name for socialism.  "Forced Charity"

    Message: 66389
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 16:40:55

    Re:  "I'm just suggesting that criminals and mental patients shouldn't be
    allowed to buy them."

    Let's see, everyone who has ever been convicted of a felony, or anyone who
    has escaped convection of a felony on the grounds of insanity, should never
    be allowed to purchase or own a weapon of any kind.  How does that sound?

    Message: 66390
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 16:51:44

    Re:  "I had to laugh at that re: 'if it's anything like in the military'"

    Her's another.  A person went to the military hospital to get treatment for
    an ingrown toenail.  Now, granted, an ingrown toenail isn't the most serious
    thing in the world, but it can get serious.  The hospital told the patient
    they didn't have time  or material for things like ingrown toenails.  They
    sent him home to wait till they contacted him.  3 months later a letter
    arrived saying there was still nothing available.  He wrote back and said
    the ingrown toenail had taken a bad turn with infection and he had to get
    his leg amputated.  The hospital never answered.  I'm not sure what they
    thought.  Maybe they thought it was true and were afraid to say anything.
    More than likely, they lost the letter.

    Message: 66391
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: The Rules
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 20:25:38

    *=* Apollo's 10 Commandments *=*

    <1> Thou shalt not crash SYSTEMs
    <2> Thou shalt not use profanity
    <3> Thou shalt not falsify thy name
    <4> Thou shalt not demean other users
    <5> Thou shalt not pirate software
    <6> Thou shalt not hog system time
    <7> Thou shalt not post codes & passwords
    <8> Thou shalt use ost office for private mail
    <9> Thou shalt ap mail after reading
    <10> Thou shalt be a good sport an promote good BBSing

    Message: 66392
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max and all
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 20:52:36

            Eine woche bin ich weg gewesen, in Mexico. Und ich glaube, wir
    sollen uns auf Englisch unterhalten, Mensch.  Du kannst Deutsche viel besser
    als mein, und es dasuert zu lange an dem bord.  I've been in Mexico for a
    week, laying on the sand, drinking Corona and thinking kind thoughts about
    all of you Apolloans.  Glad to be back. CDlif, keep giving them hell about
    the use of weapons. Sorry I spelled your name wrong.  JohnC.

    Message: 66393
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/derivatives
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 21:11:53

    yes, you are absolutely right. I mispoke, I misunderstood, I screwed
    up. Now think about this:

    d(sin(theta)/d(theta) = cos(theta)

    d(cos(theta)/d(theta) = sin(theta)

    so,

     3
    d sin(theta)/
    d(theta)           = cos(theta)

    Message: 66394
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 21:13:38

    By golly, Bob, I've think you've got it !

    Message: 66395
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Question?
    Subject: reality
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 21:26:04

    Jeff Beck raised a real interesting question in the movie sig that I
    would like to ask in the public forum. How do you prove reality ?
    How do you know that you are not just dreaming or hallucinating
    everything you experience ? In other words, how would you prove to
    yourself, unambiguously, that everyone around you and everything
    you see is independent of you and not just a reflection of your own
    mind.

    Message: 66396
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cliff/registration
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 21:33:03

    Cliff mentioned that he found my attitude on gun registration more
    objectionable than filthy language on a public board. So, let's talk
    about. Convince me I'm wrong by your arguments, Cliff. Don't seethe,
    let me hear you out. I MAY change my mind.

    I think that the freedom to drive a car is as important, if not more
    important, than the freedom to shoot a gun. Yet, no one seriously
    wants to do away with driver's licenses that are obtained, at least
    once in your life, on the successful completion of a driver's test.
    Why, then, would it be objectionable to restrict gun ownership to
    those who could demonstrate competency in firearms after taking a
    class much like the one you have been promoting on this board. This
    would result, I am sure, in fewer gun accidents(else, why take the
    class ?), and also have the benefit of making it at least marginally
    more difficult for criminals to obtain their guns.

    Message: 66397
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 22:09:12

    Roger, I don't think registration of CARS should be as is, but it is SILLY
    to compare that with gun ownership.  One big thing that comes to mind, in my
    country of Estonia, they shot the owners of guns, not cars.  This also holds
    true in Poland, the Russians shot registerd gun owners.  These are facts,
    and you may as well been the one to have shot my relatives.

    Second, do you really believe a CRIMINAL will bother taking a class and
    registering?   ha ha ha ha.  Why hell, all he has to do is get the list from
    the government of all legally registerd gun owners, hunt down one close to
    him, and STEAL the weapon....  Or just get one from the underground that
    smuggles in tons of drugs...  Guns will be just as big of a business as
    drugs.   Why you think it will be more difficult is beyond me.  Drugs are
    illegal and it is NO problem to get them.  Difficult for John Doe Good Guy,
    yes... Bad guy...No Way.   For the right kind of money..I will make him a
    gun or sell him one of mine.

            Third, you are violating my Constitutional Rights that are not to be
    infringed.  But once you let the camels nose (the government) into the tent,
    all is lost!  After registration always comes confiscation when guns have
    been the issue.  When the Government fears guns, then it is time to fear the
    government.  And it's coming brother...it's coming.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 66398
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SocializedMedicine
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 22:46:06

    Well I've read the comments of a few folks now, so let me answer some more
    misconceptions about socialized medicine.
    First off, the cost in germany did not skyrocket, because the  system was
    set up with the idea that everybody might get ill at sometime or an other.
    Second, the german system is not set up to make a profit, it is set up to
    make shure that sick folks are taken care of. Thats the ONLY purpose of
    socialized medicine in germany. Like I have stated before, I have NEVER
    received inadequet care from any healthcare proffesional while in germany,
    wether it was free or not, it did not make a difference. I would rather tend
    to say I have received inadequete care in the US, mainly because they dont
    care if you come back, there are millions of more suckers out there to take
    money from. I personally work in some part of the healthfield myself, I am a
    livein homehealth aid. That means I take care of old folks. When I see what
    happens to these folks when they need medical care is despicable, to say the
    least. For example ( I take care of 2 people, and dont make any profit )
    The elderly lady I take care of. She is on a fixed income. When she has to
    see a doctor he has the gall to send her a bill for the difference, even
    though he know she only receives less than $600 a month out of that the
    carehome gets some ( believe me it bearly enough to cover the costs ) and
    the rest goes toward her medicine every month. Were does that doctor think
    an elderly lady ( 80) could possibly get any money from, she obviously cant
    work anymore, otherwise I wouldnt have to care for her. Her relatives are
    not well to do, and they are only greatnieces for that fact. Yet this doctor
    want to refuse to see her, because she can not   Part1

    Message: 66399
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SOcialized Med. P2
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 23:00:21

    pay the $25 difference. Does that say anything for his profession? My next
    example a 98 year old man. He is in almost the same boat, except his doctor
    is a familie friend of his, so he is kind of lucky I guess. This would not
    happen with socialized medicine, nether would any of these folks receive
    less adequete care. What do you tell a poor familie, and there are enough of
    them, when their child needs a $100000 operation, they know they dont have
    it , but they love their child. Will they be in debt for the rest of their
    lives? Please dont tell me they should have thought about that before they
    had children. In a recent report, I read that over 30% of the population in
    AZ is only one month away from being homeless. That doesnt mean they will be
    homeless, but one emergency room visit, and they will be. Not everybody has
    the oportunity to be employed with a big company, because the smaller ones
    cant afford the insurance premiums anymore. What do you tell those people,
    go find an other job? Not with the way things are in this day and age. I am
    lucky to be able to go to the VA, yea, its slow some times, but you are
    taken care of. If there is a emergency, you will be seen there promtly, I
    always have. A system like that would help millions I believe. Yes its not
    perfect, but it would be a good start. With all the millions spent on the
    defense budget and the war on drugs, loans to other countries (that never
    get paid back) I think its time we the american public demand of our
    government to a
    start taking care of folks at home. We spent billions to research SDI, that
    money could have been put to better use. Just think of all the people it
    could have helped. Well enough sayed for today my fingertips are getting blo

    Message: 66400
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: BECK/JACK CHICK
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 00:47:14

         The comics by Jack Chick are beautifully drawn diatribes against
    various groups : homosexuals, Mormons, Roman Catholics, D & D players, etc.
         There are a few dozen in the set, but if you write them a sob story
    letter you can probably get them for free.  (I did.)
         I will try to find mine & post the address soon.  Who says the best
    things in life aren't free?
         Jack Chick comics are a MUST if you collect what I call "rabid
    Christian" literature.

    Message: 66401
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Kennedy/German
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 00:53:45

    What he actually said translates to "I am a jelly doughnut."

    Message: 66402
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 00:57:28

    I am at a loss.  Part of this is my neglect of trigonometric functions and
    their derivatives, and part of this is the result of your notation, which I
    find abstruse.  Of course, it's hard to be clear and concise using an
    alpha-numeric character set.

    Message: 66403
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/solipsism
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 00:58:54

    You don't.

    At least, not within any ordinary framework.

    Message: 66404
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rogey{
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 01:30:26

    Re:  "By golly, Bob, I've think you've got it !"

    We actually agree on something??

    Message: 66405
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Socialized medicine
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 02:25:49

    You think that I was only referring to socialized medicine as "forced
    charity". What about our current programs? YOu are forced, through taxes to
    pay for a woman who has 5 kids, for them to be born, fed, clothed, schooled.

    And best of all, you could have spent the extra money on your own kids. But,
    of course, you have no choice. I think there should be a choice beyond
    certain logical programs.
    "Give a ways" are ok...Give the person a way to learn to support themselves.
    Giveaways are not ok.
    Everyone that can do anything should have to do something for their money.
    How about day care? Run a day care something like a bank...with interest.
    You work for them for a certain numbers of hours without pay, then you can
    send your kid there at a later date without you working there at the same
    time. The working poor could put in their hours on the weekend. Those not so
    bad off could put in their hours on weekdays. Those that don't want to work
    there pay like normal, providing casf for bills.

    But instead, those who chose not to have children are robbed in the name of
    those who do. Just an example of how something could work...

    s

    Message: 66406
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JeffL Germany
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 02:26:43

    Over there, they don't have as many baby machines pumping out more bodies to
    be cared for.

    Message: 66407
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: insurance
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 04:03:39

    Insurance is routinely purchased with the comapany's full knowledge that
    sooner or later there will be a major claim --- ever heard of life
    insurance?

    State Farm, for example, paid out more in claims last year than it received
    in premiums.  That they still were immensely profitable is the result of
    wisely investing the dollars as they come in.

    Message: 66408
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/guns
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 05:20:43

     What you don't seem to understand, Roger, is that, if a criminal, or anyone
    with a record, wants a gun, he is not going to go into a legitimate gun shop
    to buy one. All sorts of weapons are available through sources that take
    your money, ask no questions and couldn't give a rat's rear end about rules,
    regulations or waiting periods. Even if I didn't know any black marketeers
    in weapons, I could go to Prescott Valley swap meet this weekend (or any
    other meet outside of Phoenix), and find guns galore openly displayed for
    sale, and those dealers couldn't care less who they sell them to, as long as
    the money is there.
     What, then, does that do to your 24 hour waiting period, aside from keeping
    an honest man from buying a gun without a police check and registration?

    Message: 66409
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie/BAC
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 05:33:03

     The term is really quite Scriptural, and comes from the words of Jesus
    Christ, who said (I can'T recall chapter and verse) "You MUST be born
    again." He went on to explain that while a person is born once physically,
    and cannot return to the womb to do it over, he can, through coming to
    Christ in a very personal relationship, be born spiritually. In other words,
    the spirit that dwells in each of us becomes awakened to the presence of
    God, and the Spirit of God dwells in the essence or spirit of the believer.
    Thus, a person becomes "born again". It is really not the onerous thing that
    some people would make it out to be, and does not necessarily indicate a
    dark, dismal past from which an individual was snatched.
     While it is true that many "born again" believers did have a rather dismal
    life prior to coming to Christ, the Bible clearly states that ALL are
    sinners, worthy of spiritual death (separation from God), and stand in need
    of a saviour. God, through His love and grace (undeserved merit), provided
    that way of escape from death in the person of His Son, Jesus, whose
    sacrifice of Himself on the cross provided the payment in full for the
    penalty of sin for all men. Those who recognize and accept that sacrifice as
    being for them, then become "born again" whether they use the exact term or
    not.
     I hope this oversimplification answers your questions, Ann. God bless.

    Message: 66410
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Doggy
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 09:21:27

    I don't go along with #4! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66411
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley/last
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 09:30:00

    Thanks you very much. You made it clear. However, does that mean when a
    person becomes Born Again, he never believed before? Can a slacked off
    believer become Born Again? Or would this term apply to a person that goes
    back to God for what ever reason? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66412
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 10:51:59

      I guess you missed the important distinction.  The first birth, which
    everyone gets, is the physical one.  Being "born again" means to be born
    spiritually.

                                            =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 66413
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/sin & cos
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 10:54:13

       The derivative of cos (theta) is *minus* sin (theta).
       Now with the *hyperbolic* trig functions, the sinh and cosh functions are
    each other's derivative.

    #(O,O)#  Hoot!

    Message: 66414
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger #66395/reality
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 12:43:46

    True reality is anyone's guess.  We could all be a figment of YOUR
    imagination.

    Message: 66415
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Socialization
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 12:44:50

    Notes on Socialized Medicine taken from John & Lorelei Barber of St. George
    Australia.

    There are different levels of SM.  One level is for those on very limited
    incomes wherein all services are free and for emergencies just as prompt
    although a ward type recovery room is used.

    There are some doctors who choose to work in private hospitals and receive
    their fees.  They do not have to partake in SM.

    Another level is for government subsidy of the middle class.  Office visits
    as well as medicine is subsidized.  A visit to the doctor would cost $23
    but the patient pays only $7. wherein a prescription would be $10 but the
    net cost would be $2.

    Most interns start out in the socialized areas but after completion of
    their degree can do whatever suits them.  Graduate doctors are in
    attendance, of course.

    Then there are those who pay Blue Cross and can choose a specific doctor
    along with having a private room.  For non-emergencies the Blue Cross
    insured can usually obtain quicker services as they do not go on the
    waiting list, depending on circumstances.

    All in all the people are happy with the medical situation.  Each receives
    needed and competent care.

    I am told by these same folks that in England all medicine is socialized
    and from a doctor friend of theirs, were told that it is a good system.

    In any case, and I will probe some more through the thick Aussie accent, I
    believe that reasonable cost medical care is a must.  I personally know of
    a family who has been financially wiped off the face of the map due to a
    daughter becoming ill.

    It is a threat to us all.  More later....these are my notes and I haven't
    quite digested everything that was told me just ten minutes ago.

    I find Jeff L's messages on SM and Germany interesting and of course Dean's
    logic is up to par.

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