### Apollo BBS Archive - May 17, 1990

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 00:14:05

    Rod
            I was hoping you would have taken care of that post that I said was
    in poor taste for MY PUBlic board.   Anything on SEX must be posted in the
    COSmos SIG.   Dean Hathaway does not run this board, so him saying it was
    okay does not give you the right to post garbage.

            I have tried hard to get along with you...but I can't.   I would
    rather you ONLY post in the COSmos SIG since you don't seem to know what is
    in poor taste or not.   My boys like to read the PUBlic board, but I have to
    ban them off when you post garbage.

            This is not a new rule... I am not trying to hard ass you, I just
    want the PUBlic board sqeeky clean... Read the last paragraph in the  cmd
    in the ain menu.   It said " I as Sysop have the right to delete any post
    I feel that is not in good taste"  Dean's name is not in there any place.

            I gave you chance to fix it...  you failed so I zapped it!

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6502
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Melissa/Pastor
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 07:29:18

    Well, the first and foremost reason to attend church (IMHO) is to worship
    God and to hear His Word. Every Pastor may have his own individual style of
    delivering God's Word, but the most important thing is that he is doing so.
    If this particular Pastor is to change churches, I do not necessarily see
    any problem with transferring to that church if you feel best instructed by
    him. However, if a Pastor leaves the ministry altogether, or moves out of
    town or out of state, this should not cause the person to stop attending
    church altogether. We must not let the minister outshine the ministry. We
    are at church to worship God and be instructed by Scripture, but not to be
    entertained. Now, I am not against a Pastor who can hold your attention, not
    at all. In fact, I am currently attending two churches because they both
    teach God's Word so well and deal with Scriptural answers to today's
    problems as well as teaching the historical accounts of the Bible. But I am
    not to say "Is Pastor Xxxxx going to be speaking tonight? If not, I don't
    want to go," or "Is there going to be a soloist or is the choir going to
    sing? If not, I'd rather stay home and watch TV."

       I know I seem to be running far afield, but I felt I needed to to state
    exactly what I meant. A Pastor may make a particular service interesting,
    but it is God's Word alone that we should concern ourselves with during that
    service. Worship service is God coming to us, not just us going to God.

    Message: 6503
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/Honest
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 07:31:03

    I understand and thank you for being honest. I hope you do not get upset
    when I ask you...since you were all for attending church while he was there
    and did not "need or want" it after he left, would you say that he was the
    main reason why you went to church? I'm not trying to set you up for
    anything, so don't worry. Just trying to understand.

    Message: 6504
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: IMHO
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 12:49:20

    Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way! (IMHO)

    Message: 6505
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: gary/IMHO
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 13:21:03

    Oh rats ! Now who sang that song ? It was one of my favorites.

    Message: 6506
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gary/6504
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 00:04:42

    Heh heh.

    Message: 6507
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/6505
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 00:04:56

    It was Mac Davis, wasn't it?

    Message: 6508
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 00:50:18

    Yep.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 65715
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on MLK
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 23:21:36

    I think I've heard that Honest Abe played around... and we have a day to
    honor him.

    Memorial Day and Veterans Day both honor *war*, and Independence day honors
    *revolution*.  Why not an MLK day?

    You are going to circulate petitions?  Good luck getting enough signatures
    during the summer.

    Message: 65716
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Right to Vote
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 23:25:49

    Well, Cliff, two groups got together to fix the error that the legislature
    made last year when they swapped MLK day for Columbus day.  They've just
    fixed that by restoring Columbus day.  Pat Quaranta (sp?) of the
    Italian-American club is going to suggest to his followers that things are
    now they way that they should be, and that they shouldn't sign or circulate
    new petitions.  By the way, he and his group supplied over half of the
    signatures last time around.

    This is the way the system is supposed to work.  People complain about a
    law, and the legislature can try to fix it.  All the people can do is simply
    repeal things.

    Too bad that Jan Brewer voted against the law (and I'll bet our Reps did
    today, too (though I'm not as certain about them)) -- I would have liked to
    have seen an anti-Brewer campaign this fall.

    Message: 65717
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog on Memorial Day
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 23:58:23

            It does not honor *WAR*... it honors men who died fighting for their
    country.

            As for MLK, it is a bone thrown to the black people by politicians.
    Arizona needed it to insure we would get the SuperBowl game.  Political
    Blackmail.... and I resent it.   The whole thing is so phony!

            Yes, the Legislature is suppose to work for the people, but when
    there is as much opposition and flack about an issue, it is suppose to go to
    the PEOPLE so they can VOTE on it.  There was one legislature that had been
    told by her constituents they did not want the holiday, but she said " I
    think the MLK is right, so I am not going to listen to what my district
    wants" and she voted for it to pass....    What kind of representatives do
    we have when they do NOT listen?   I for one am going to vote out anyone who
    voted for taking the vote away from the people.

            Lincoln was not a Communist sympathizer by the way.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65718
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: ZAPPING
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 00:26:33

            I apped Rod's post (# 65679) as I felt it was in poor taste.
    Read the cmd in the ain menu.

            I want the PUBlic board to be sqeeky clean.  There is the COSmos SIG
    where I let you talk about ANYTHING you want to as long as it is legal.
    (No credit card numbers...etc)

            I really do NOT wish to have to kick any user off, but I will be
    damned if they will force their moral standards on me as standards for this
    lic board.  And I don't care if another users tells you it is OKAY,
    this board is run by me.... not them.

            Rod...  you have been warned more then ANY other user on Apollo.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Yes, I asked Rod to fix his post first...

    Message: 65719
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: MLK
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 01:06:53

    The way I look at this mish mash is quite simple;

    There are two groups..one group says if you're not FOR a paid MLK day
    your reasons must be racially founded.

    The other group says that you gotta be communist to allow legislators
    to take a vote away from you.

    I'd rather be called something I'm not than not do something I am.

    Off to the petitions for me. If these self serving media basking tax -
    fattened hyena's think for one moment I'm gonna lie down, shorts down,
    ready fore them to use a grease-less shaft on me on this topic...

    Mikes second law of politics; $hit flows uphill.

    Message: 65720
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/Zapping.
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 03:01:45

    The rules also say, no profanity.  Naughty, naughty.

    Message: 65721
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod's post?
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 03:02:14

    Why not move it to the COS sig so we can take a look at it?

    Message: 65722
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 05:50:31

     The only thing closed, my friend, is your mind, to truth. You are so busy
    trying to debunk, disprove, analyze, criticize and otherwise find fault with
    God's Love Letter to His creation that you have totally missed the
    simplicity of the message, which is summed up in the simple statement that
    God loves you so much that He sent His Son, Jesus to the cross to die so
    that you and I and whosoever believes can be found worthy through Christ to
    dwell for eternity in the kingdom that God has prepared for us.
     It's the only reason I need to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
     NOW the case is closed.

    Message: 65723
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger's humanism
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 05:53:35

     Humanism IS a celf-centered belief, Roger. By that, I don't mean
    necessarily Roger centered (in yor case). Rather a humanistic belief puts
    man (generic) in the driver's seat, at the center of the picture, in
    control, and gives God a back seat, if it recognizes Him at all. It has been
    called the most dangerous religion of the 20th century. I can believe it.

    Message: 65724
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger again
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 05:55:26

     Since the devil himself, the father of lies, can disguise himself as an
    angel of truth, you had better be careful where you pick up all that "truth"
    "no matter where you find it". Could be a booby trap.

    Message: 65725
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/65702
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 05:56:52

     That drivel is not worth a response, so I won't.

    Message: 65726
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Reed Sea/ M.M.
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 06:02:11

     And just which "critique" did that story come from. My Bible still says Red
    Sea, and still has the pharaoh's soldiers and their horses drowning when the
    sea closed upon them, not when the tide rose. It also has the Israelites
    crossing dry shod, quite a feat even at low tide.
     Back to yor fairy tales.

    Message: 65727
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject:  Mike Niddleton
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 06:06:12

     "Those same people don't have a clue what the Bible really says or means or
    how to live lives dedicated to the teachings it contains."
     And I suppose that you have graciously come along to lead us all into the
    light as our great example, huh?
     I can hardly wait. (But I won't hold my breath, since I would not want to
    hold  your recent posts up as a shining example of a great Christian
    attitude.)

    Message: 65728
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/65649
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 07:43:29

    If the Word of God doesn't convince you, my friend, nothing will. (Romans
    10:17)

    Message: 65729
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 07:45:55

    If I had to make a choice between "Christians-only" voting and having the
    ote module suspended, I'd choose the latter. But seriously, though. Why
    don't we just put the ote on the back burner for a while, until
    everyone's dander is down, and then re-start from there?

    Message: 65730
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/65658
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 07:51:09

    Speaking for myself Roger, yes, I have.

    But it is the one who died on it, not the cross itself, that leads to
    salvation. The cross is simply a reminder of our Savior's great love for us.

    Message: 65731
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 08:03:39

    By becoming a Christian a person does not volunteer "to be judged by
    biblical standards." The Law is there to show us our sins, and the Gospel is
    there to show us our Savior. When we comply with God's Law it is not because
    it compliance will assure our salvatioon or non-compliance will assure our
    damnation. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this
    not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one
    can boast. (Eph 2:8)" We as Christians follow God's commands because we WANT
    to, out of loving obedience to Him, not because we HAVE to, out of fear of a
    merciless judge. Now, if we REJECT him, that's another matter. The only sin
    that remains to be judged is the sin of unbelief. All others were nailed to
    the cross. Whether you believe Him or not, whether you love Him or not,
    whether you even care or not, he still atoned for your sins.

    Like I said, all I'm doing is presenting the other side, presenting God's
    viewpoint. Because you are do not believe in God, you are going to do what
    you are going to do regardless. This will not make me hate you. It will make
    me hate your sin, but you I cannot hate. You have heard God's word and
    rejected it. I cannot change that. You still have the rest of your life;
    things could change, you might come to know God in that time. I hope you do.
    But understand that me calling sin a sin is not going to cause you not to do
    it if you have your mind set on it. Only God can change one's heart from
    a rebellious nature. I hope you do not think I am barking at you to stop
    doing what you are doing, for without God there is no desire to change. I'd
    like to see you change, but again, I believe only God can do that. Thanks.

    Message: 65732
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: rod/debate
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 08:56:17

    I had some early "debates" with James White on another board that was
    interesting. I got accused of being a "secular humanist". I didn't know
    that it was a compliment until I read the "Humanist", the magazine of
    Humanism, and found that the basic principles of humanism was love and
    care for your fellow man, respect him, be tolerant,...

    Message: 65733
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/closed
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:00:00

    You and I agree. I believe the Bible points to the way for our reunion with
    God. My quarrel is with those who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of
    God and try to make that a precondition for salvation.

    Message: 65734
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Humanism
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:01:32

    Why is humanism dangerous ? Is is dangerous to respect your fellow man ?
    To tolerate different belief systems ? To love one another ? Seems the only
    danger is from intolerant dogmatic religious zealots who believe they speak
    for God.

    Message: 65735
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/devil
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:02:24

    I ask again: show me some "proof" that the Holy Spirit has given you faith
    to believe the impossible.

    Message: 65736
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/65725
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:08:30

    What you mean is that you can't. That "drivel" goes to the heart of your
    belief and my belief. I have to ask myself the question "Is my belief in
    God a delusion?" Answering such questions with answers such as "the Holy
    Spirit guides me" is not sufficient, for I could be deluded into believing
    that by my own mind or, to use your example, powers that are evil. What
    better trick to play by the devil than to delude the majority of believers
    with false doctrines as biblical infallibility. Think of the
    stumbling-blocks put before educated and intelligent folks like Rod, Beau
    and others with such a belief. Another piece of evidence that doctrine may
    be a delusion or inspired by the devil is the reaction I get when I question
    this particular belief in your case and an Daryl's and Mike's. I suggest
    you read the heated and defensive messages that you all have written. They
    are not good examples of Christian responses. So, all I do is ask you to
    consider what I have said, and ask the question "Is this belief man-made, a
    delusion, or even inspired by the devil?"

    Message: 65737
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/WoG
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:11:00

    First, you have to find the Word of God. If you think that by inserting
    a phrase that "all scripture is God-breathed" makes it the Word of God, I've
    got some more books for you to consider as well (The Book of Mormon, The
    Koran). No, you need evidence to back up the claim. Where is it ? Otherwise,
    it is a man-made doctrine or, worse, devil-inspired.

    Message: 65738
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: daryl/65730
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:16:17

    Ah, that might explain your attitude. Why did Paul use the term "Cross"
    when he spoke of foolishness. The cross represents something to us also. We
    have to follow Jesus to the Cross to become reunited with God. What does
    that mean ? It means we are dead, dead, dead. When you are dead it does not
    matter who spits on you, makes fun of you, who says nasty things about you.
    For once you are dead, God resurrects you as a part of Christ's body. When
    we are dead we don't have egos do we ? It doesn't mean we don't ask
    questions, probe, challenge, or give up our love of science. It just means
    that it doesn't matter to US. So the cross is more than a reminder of Jesus
    love for us, it is the central object of your and my faith.

    Message: 65739
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff:  Mike's Last
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 09:31:08

            I wish to complain publicly about Mike Carter's last post
    (Message 65719).  My 11-year-old son is beginning to show an
    interest in issues and such, and it wouldn't surprise me if he
    starts logging into Apollo just like his old man.  I do not wish
    him to read graphic allusions of homosexual acts at this point
    in his development.
            Mike's transgression is all the more grievous because it
    follows by a very short time Cliff's admonition to us all
    regarding his desires for the ublic message area.
            I also find it very interesting that one of Apollo's most
    vociferous christians would find it in his heart to post such a
    message.
            Cliff, I ask that message 65719 be apped and that Mike be
    publicly reminded of his obligation to abide by Apollo's rules.

    Message: 65740
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cliff/rod/zap
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 13:19:58

    I would also like to ask to see Rod's offensive post. Would you mind putting
    it in the Cosmos SIG ?

    Thanks.

    Message: 65741
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: PseudoChristianity
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 15:56:34

    What is selfish about humanism? Here's selfish: Since *I* asked God into
    *MY* heart and *I* claim the Bible is what it clearly isn't, and since *I*
    went through the right ritual of Baptism in the right way and time of *MY*
    life, and since *I* and so holy and *SELF* righteous NOW "GOD OWES ME
    ETERNAL LIFE, A PARTY AT HIS EXPENSE, IN HEAVEN WITH HIM WHEN I DIE." That
    is PseudoChrisitianity and based on the carnal human selfish desire to live
    forever and be more right than others. Your "religion" is far more selfish
    than humanism, and it is not at all what Jesus taught. Give me an unselfish
    humanist who sees the hope and the good in people over a Fundamentalist
    bigot every day.

     .  _|_
     .   |
     .   |          Mike

    Message: 65742
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Drivel
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:05:42

    I guess you caught me driveling on myself again. Thanks for the view from
    the other side. Certainly there is no Satan or Devil I can blame for getting
    my ego all defensive. The question, I take it, is "Is faith man-made?" Well,
    faith in what? What is faith. I know what happened to me. I died. Yet I
    live. THe doctrines that try to explain that are certainly man-made. Our
    limited view of God is certainly man-made. For sure, our hateful posts are
    man-made. Conclusion? 99.9% of "religion" is man-made and drivel. But there
    IS something beyond that. A door that opens to the real purpose of life. WE
    slam it shut when we peek through and see that it is death, in our lack of
    trust in that which we can not conceive of. Good question, Roger. And you
    are not closed-minded and I like your humanism and I have grown in faith due
    to your questioning and probing mind. Glad to be able to respond here.
    Please (everyone) realize that I do not begrudge Cliff his nickles and dimes
    if he needs them, I just don't believe in charging for a BBS and I won't be
    sending any money here, so just be aware that my posts will be restricted in
    number and location. If anyone wishes me to get a post, it must be in the
    public area. I may need a few days to respond to other posts. That is all.

     .     ))(
     .    {-.-}
     .     >v<     Mike

    Message: 65743
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:19:04

    Re:  "that is like saying that there wouldn't be any racial
    problems if{blacks were all enslaved or sent back to Africa."

    It's different.  The difference is, one is based on love and the other is
    based on hate.

    Re:  "Enforcing biblical law upon everyone, rather than the natural law
    (which includes the rational parts of biblical law anyway) is repugnant to
    all but the Christian (or it should be if it they aren't too apathetic to
    care)."

    The Old Testament law was only given to the Jews.  It is not binding to any
    Gentile (that's you and me dude).  You cannot force any law on anyone.  Did
    you ever notice how many people obey the 55 MPH limit?

    Regardless, if only the people part of the 10 commands (the ones based on
    loving your neighbor) were followed, there would be no AIDS, wars, etc.  I
    am not too apathetic to care.  I know you are not too apathetic to care.  Is
    there anyone on Apollo who is too apathetic to care?

    Message: 65744
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:25:30

    Re:  "Memorial Day and Veterans Day both honor *war*, and Independence day
    honors *revolution*.  Why not an MLK day?"

    I don't think we should have any more paid holidays period.  Only the people
    who work for the government get all the holidays off with pay.  And even now
    the Government is crying it doesn't have enough money.  They keep wanting to
    raise taxes.  And each new holiday costs millions.  What secular business
    gives all holidays off with pay?

    Message: 65745
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:28:37

    Re:  "I'd rather be called something I'm not than not do something I am."

    That sounds like something a politician would say.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 65746
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rqoger
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:34:28

    Re:  "I didn't know that it was a compliment until I read the "Humanist""

    Calling someone a "secular humanist" is not intended as an insult no more
    than calling someone a Christian.  It is a statement of fact.  I'm a
    Christian.  Are you a Secular Humanist?

    Maybe you are a Secular Humorist?

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 65747
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:36:45

    Re:  "My quarrel is with those who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of
    God and try to make that a precondition for salvation."

    I don't know any Christian who believes that.  Maybe some do, but I don't
    know any.

    I don't know any who think it is a precondition to salvation.

    Message: 65748
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 16:41:08

    Re:  "Since *I* asked God into *MY* heart and *I* claim the Bible is what it
    clearly isn't, and since *I* went through the right ritual of Baptism in the
    right way and time of *MY* life, and since *I* and so holy and *SELF*
    righteous NOW "GOD OWES ME ETERNAL LIFE, A PARTY AT HIS EXPENSE, IN HEAVEN
    WITH HIM WHEN I DIE.""

    I don't know any Christian who believes all that.  Surely you don't.

    Message: 65749
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Burkett
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 20:00:15

    Get you mind out of the gutter, kiddo.
    "Shorts down, ready fore them to use a grease-less shaft on me on this.."

    Somewhere I miss the homosexual connotations and if this is too graphic
    for your poor sheltered lil boy, then you might be better keeping him
    sheltered. This country has some rights that allow such "GRAPHIC"
    language to be used.
    What is more profane than what you suggest I wrote is your intention
    to take away my 1st ammendment rights and or censure my opinions.

    Go hide in Russia, pinheads like you don't deserve 1st ammendments.

    Message: 65750
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rqoger
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 20:57:30

    No, I am not a "secular" humanist, although with the posts I have been
    reading from the Christian side I may yet become one. I am a humanist.
    I agree with most of the principles of humanism. If I was an atheist,
    I would be a secular humanist, but since I am an agnostic Christian,
    I guess I'm a Christian humanist, as was Jesus Christ.

    Message: 65751
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob/precondition
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 20:59:27

    If you don't you sure don't like anyone who doesn't believe that it is.
    Do you think I am a Christian ? Do you think it is possible to become
    a Christian if you don't think the Bible is the Word of God ?

    Message: 65752
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: re. Peter Petrisco
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 22:40:49

    As for your question, I was not opposed to the vietnam war. As a matter of
    fakt I think we could have won it, if it wasn't for civilians trying to run
    the military. I know lots of vietnam vets, most of them agree with me. I did
    not say all of them now!!!!! Back to drugs. The way you can show a young
    person how to better himself with an education is, to give him positive
    examples an dfeedback. Show him that with the proper schooling he can make
    good money and not be scared every time he leaves his house. Dont tell me
    that isn't posible, because there are to many examples of succesful people
    out there. Show that young person what drugs really do to people, all the
    pain they cause. such as all the deformed baibies, the person that died of
    an overdose, the inocent people killed, and last but not least show him the
    grief of a slain policemans famiely. There is to much pain and heart ache
    involved in this we have to try!!!!! and do something about it. Trowing a
    drug abuser in jail with hardcore criminals isn't going to help that person
    eather, in this element he or she will just go down deeper. I am not a
    devoted cristian, but I believe that you have to believe in a higher power
    to pull through an ordeal like that. This fack is well documented with
    Narcotics Anonoumus. Their success rate is way ut there. I will not quote
    numbers since I dont know them. N.A. stresses the fact that you have to
    believe  in a higher power to stay clean. I is not easy, but nobody told you
    it would be. As you can see there are a number of option open to a drug user
    to get help, That person just has to want. The same goes for a gang member,
    who most of the time is addicted also. If that G.A. wants to get out he can.
    Tere are no 2 ways about it.=============MAD MAX==============

    Message: 65753
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: re: Dean Hathaway
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 22:59:21

    I think most of what you sayed is total BOLOGNE and you can bank on it.
    What do you mean by minority. Drug users and dealers are by fare not the
    minority were I am concerned. Have  you ever cosidered the waste of it all?
    The rights of an individual are just fine, but what about thehousends of
    children born deformed or dead or worse every year. do they have a choice,
    can they Vote, Can they tell mommy not to take drugs? Explain that to me,
    even butter jet, give me a solution if you think you have it. I dont think
    so. Would you like to know what just 1 gram of crystal or coke will do to a
    child? Well wether or not you want to I'll tell you anyways, because I know
    from expierience. My Ex wifes son was born with a hernia, a hole in his
    stomach, water on the brain, elevated white bloodcount( possible lucemia)
    and he is allergic to just about anything. The reason I call him her son by
    the way is because he is not mine. Do you want to know wy? Because I didnt
    give her any money for dope she sleept with her dealer to get it and atayed
    with him to get more.By the way again, she is preagnant by him again and
    still!!!!! doing drugs. That boy might not be mine, but for 1 year i thought
    he was, the pain to me was unbelievable. Can you really justify the agony
    children like that have to go through and there are thousends of those
    children out there. You might say my attude is selfish, you are darn right
    it is. but I think I can be selfish, just this once. If a human being wants
    to destroy itself I think it should be able to, but not at the expense of
    others. I will get over my pain sometime but my almost son never will, what
    about his brother or sister that is on the way. What will we do with tose ch

    If you have any answers please let me know, because I really dont always
    know. That was only my opinion on the children, drugs are destroing millions
    of lives of inocent people, that dont have a choice, like, and I7ll put my
    catigory on the top, because I7m selfish:
    husbands,wifes,brothers,sisters,mothers,fathers,etc. tose are just to name a
    few. you say I could have left? how could I, I loved and still love that
    person to much. If she were to come back I still couldn't say no. Does that
    qualify me to be human& loving? I hope so. If you are married, could you
    leave your wife? I would shure like to know.
    Well I've got to go, sorry I hogged the board so long
    ==============MAD MAX===============

    Message: 65755
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Atheist
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:14:33

    I'm sorry if I classed you an atheist. It was sheer clumsiness on my part,
    and I do apologize. Is agnostic okay? (I'm asking this question seriously.)

    Message: 65756
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/65735
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:16:47

    The "proof," even if Paul could present it to you in a way that would
    convince at least one of the five sensory conductors with which you input
    information for your brain to reason, you still would not believe.

    Message: 65757
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Responses
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:27:08

    What would you consider to be a good Christian response? A "la-de-da," nicey
    nicey candyfloss attitude? Sorry, but it doesn't always work that way. We
    are spiritually reborn, but we still have our "old Adam" to contend with. We
    still get angry, we still get exasperated, and yes, we still tend to fly off
    the handle at times. That makes us no less Christians, for salvation is not
    dependent upon works. Christianity is not just some phony "everything is
    always okay" lifestyle. Charles Swindoll said it well (and this is a rare
    quote from him that I will AGREE with!):

         Surrounded by numerous types to whom everybody is "fantastic,"
         "super," and "incredible," let's work hard at being real. This
         means we are free to question, to admit failure or weakness, to
         confess wrong, to declare the truth. When a person is authentic,
         he or she does not have to win or always be in the top ten or
         make a big impression or look super-duper pious.

    Message: 65758
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Mormon
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:36:19

    I think that the origin of the Book of Mormon is clear to those that know
    the history of Joseph Smith, the "Book of Abraham" and the Sensen papyrus,
    and the Kindernook plates, among other things. In addition to the fact that
    not ONE piece of physical evidence has been found to verify the existence of
    any of the peoples spoken of in the B of M. There has been plenty of
    evidence found to prove that the peoples of the Old Testament and New
    Testament times at least LIVED where Scripture says they lived.

    Scripture tells us that we should not run willy-nilly to whoever is shouting
    "Here's Christ," or "There's Christ," or even "Hey, I'M Christ!" (Yes, I
    have seen someone in the New Times who claimed to be a trance-channeler for
    Jesus, as if Jesus would need a spirit-medium to make himself known!)
    When he returns, EVERYONE will know. Until then, we should turn to the Words
    written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit by those that knew Him best.

    I had some information on the Qu'ran here somewhere, let me find it and I'll
    get back to you.

    Message: 65759
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Cross
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:41:06

    Christ is the center of my faith. The cross is a reminder of His love and
    sacrifice, but apart from that, it's just a couple of beams of wood, nothing
    more.

    Message: 65760
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 65739/Bill
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:42:53

    I would agree. There are far more eloquent ways to express opinions on the
    matter.

    Message: 65761
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Mike/65741
    Date: 05/17/90  Time: 23:47:06

    (Mike, are all the Christians on this BBS like you, full of viterol[sic] and
    venom? is that your witness of what it is like to understand the victory of
    humility?)

    It swings both ways, Mike. It swings both ways.

    But then again, I guess I'm just one of them "conservative doctrine dorks"
    (tm)MM.

    BTW, I don't expect ANYTHING from God. I don't deserve His grace one bit. If
    He were to decide to turn His countenance from me this very minute, I would
    not curse Him one bit.

    Message: 65762
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod's post
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 01:00:36

    I think he said that he likes to FORNICATE.  Every day.  And as much as
    possible.

    Or that was the general gist of it.

    Message: 65763
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 01:55:40

    Yes, that is the truth.  I also said that I like to fantasize about having
    sex with women that I see.  I've always done that.

    And by the way, Cliff, I object to Peter Petrisko's last post wherein he
    said that I should stop thinking about my PENIS so much.  After all a little
    Christian kid may be reading this board.

    Message: 65764
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Holy Ghost
    Date: 05/18/90  Time: 01:59:33

    Perhaps if I had some of that HG stuff then I could be like Paul, a true
    Clown for Christ.  Or just maybe I could be like Cliff or Mike.

    Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  I think I prefer me much better.

    Hey, I'll just bet that the HG helps these people with their posts and all.
    Must use 'old english' though.

    All we poor atheists have helping us is Satan and he is so busy chasing
    girls that he hardly has the time.

    Good clean post here.  (At least I hope it meets with the boards approval.)

    Rod

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