### Apollo BBS Archive - August 1, 1990

    And it is holding the human animal back from a better, more enlightened
    world, a world that awaits brotherhood and decency to all, regardless of
    race, color OR creed.  -Rod (I had to use this name because Cliff is on my
    case for speaking out.  He breaks in on me and tries to influence through
    bullying.)

    Note: This is me logging on as Richard Smith

    ATDT2461432
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    CONNECT 1200

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    What is your first name:RICHARD

    What is your last name:SMITH

    Hello, Richard Smith
    Is your name correct:Yes

    Caller # 150937 (45 today)
    It is now 08/01/90  23:49:34
    Message range is (67890-68143)

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    Message: 68106
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 01:13:38

    What you are advocating under Freedom of Religion is that absolutely
    anything is permissible.

    This includes telling a child that unless they believe as they are told
    that they will be punished forever without relief.   Does this seem right
    to you?

    It could also include a host of other ideas all under the guise of
    religious freedom, couldn't it?

    The only other religious practice that I see as more damaging than messing
    up a youths mind with blatant lies is the human sacrifice.  The religion
    that performs this ritual is rooted deep within Christianity.

    From your message I gather that you support the right of religious
    expression for all sects including the Devil Worshippers?  You'd have to
    because to deny other religions their freedom of expression would make you a
    hypocrite, wouldn't it?

    And while these Devil Worshippers are warping the minds of their young you
    would just have to sit back and say, oh well, it's their religious freedom
    in action.

    But not me.  As an atheist I see through the bull and outright lies that
    are used to control the gullible human animal.  And the poor children, many
    of them will grow up carrying this torment around with them that there
    exists a living eternal hell.  How utterly gross.

    This information when presented as a fact to a young person can and does
    have effects that resounds for many years.  This lie is with them for every
    decision that they make during their life.  This society would be much less
    up tight if this ignorant practice was dropped and replaced with a thought
    of kindness and love.  Fat chance for now, eh?   -Rod

    Message: 68108
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 01:42:37

    Re:  Religious FREEDOM (to express)  Free speech and right to preach.
    I never said Religious murder...I said 'Religious Belief'... Get your facts
    straight!

    Hell is not being with God as John said.  It is not you being burnt on the
    foot by hot brimstone....  Try and seperate facts...  keeping them secret
    from anyone is not education.

            To pass a law that you can't talk about the Devil or HEll is
    utterly stupid!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68109
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Lochansky
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 02:15:25

      I wouldn't be surprised that an Apollo mission detected time-dilation, but
    I *would* be surprised if the difference were as great as 14 seconds.  I
    don't think I'd believe 14 milliseconds.  But 14 microseconds is approaching
    believability.
      There was a time-dilation experiment with two extremely accurate clocks,
    one at the bottom of a skyscraper, and one at the top.  They detected the
    time-difference caused by the difference in the Earth's gravitational field
    at the two points.

                 ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 68110
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Relativity
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 02:19:38

      You're missing the point; Doppler effect has nothing to do with the
    *speed* of light.  In fact, the effect was first noticed with sound.  It's
    what causes a car that passes you as you're standing by the road to have a
    higher-pitched sound as it approaches you than as it recedes.
      The color of light is not the same as the *speed* of light.

              ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 68111
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 05:57:21

     Good response to the latest Williams garbage, John. Personally, I have
    refused to stoop to his level of ignorance a couple of years ago, and remain
    adamant in my refusal to respond to his frequent attacks. For the most part
    I just use the (S) key when his name shows up and let it go at that. One of
    these days he will face his maker with all his wrong answers. That should be
    interesting.

    Message: 68112
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C. on Rod
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:19:16

    I think his hell questions were real questions and deserve an answer. I am
    not an athiest, but do not believe in hell per se - am interested in what
    other's think about it. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68113
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on Circus
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:27:07

    Tell us about Picadillie (sp?) Circus! Are the English people as frustrated
    as we are regarding our politicians? Does most of them love Maggie? Have
    fond memories of Churchill? What about love for the queen? Don't they feel
    that money paid to her wasted for the most part - An expensive tradition?
    Like Jeff L. said at the GT - "too bad you can post with your accent"! Ha.
    We didn't know you were English. Really liked your Jane too. You are a most
    interesting fellow Gordon. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68114
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on tape
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:31:26

    I will admit you are the hit on the small amount of tape I took. At least
    with you, no film goes to waste - you do not just sit there or hide from the
    camera. Yes, Melissa and Sandy are good looking - but your a cutie pie too.
    Now you ought to print that out - may be the last compliment you get from me
    - for an eternity! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68115
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C. & Sandi
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:34:44

    It is well known among the older members that if there's a GT and new
    members that the others have not met do not come, then they are suspected
    automatically of being 'one of us' - with an alias. As a matter of fact - I
    would venture to say all new members are suspect! Ha ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68116
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff L.
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:38:12

    Congrats Jess on recieving the 1990 Bill Burkett Apollo Foundation grant!
    You deserve it. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68117
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliffy on Jeff L.
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:40:30

    I recommend that Jeff have access to the Cos sig and the Old Farts sig.
                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68118
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Oh hell!
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:45:44

    How many here believe that hell is right here - not on Apollo, but this
    world? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68119
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cliff on fire
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 07:50:36

    If hell is not depicted as 'fire and brimstone - eternal pain - the devil
    poking you in the butt with a pitch fork' - then where did all that come
    from? Every religion I went to preached pain and suffering for eternity. No
    one said anything about Separation from God as being the punishment - the
    only punishment. Please explain. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68120
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: rod/religion
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:03:12

    When I was a kid I was told that if I made fun of the Holy Ghost I committed
    the unforgivable sin and was condemned for all eternity. This, amongst other
    things, has warped me for my entire life. On the other hand, I don't think
    I'd like my sainted grandmother locked up for life (call me sentimental, but
    you CAN go too far.)

    Message: 68121
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: jeff/doppler
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:08:41

    The velocity of sound through air is constant, just like light through a
    vacuum. If you move relative to the sound source the sound rises or falls
    accordingly, yet the velocity of sound with respect to you is still the

    same. The same is true for light.
    I think someone else mentioned confirmation of time dilation on the moon
    journey. I believe that the difference in the clocks were measured in
    milliseconds, which can be a very long time depending upon the accuracy
    of the clocks (which I believe were some atomic clocks with fantastic
    accuracy).

    Message: 68122
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/purpose
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:16:03

    Relativity has no purpose. It is a phenomenon "explained" by the special
    theory of relativity. The equations allow us to calculate the mass of
    an object moving relative to an observer. Since there is no preferred frame
    of reference, we can only measure the physical attributes of an object with
    respect to some observer. An object has "rest" mass that is the mass
    measured at rest with respect to some observer. The object is not really
    at rest, for it sits on a table on the earth rotatings at 1000 mph about
    it's axis and at jillions of mph around the sun in a solar system moving
    relative to other solar systems in a galaxy moving relative to other
    galaxies. So, the only thing you can measure is the physical attribute
    relative to yourself. So, everything is relative.

    Message: 68123
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod on Hell
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:16:51

    I object. I think Rod has a very, very good point. As far as hell being
    real, PROVE that hell is real.

    Message: 68124
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT/strangers
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:20:34

    I recommend : at we wear nametags at the next GT.

    Message: 68125
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hell
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 09:17:37

    I don't think that all parents who tell their children about the horrors of
    hell are purposely trying to be sadistic.  In fact, I am sure many of them
    believe it themselves and are trying to give warning.
    However, does that excuse them of the damage done?  I remember one uncle of
    mine who would say that if I was bad the boogie man would come get me.  I am
    sure many of you out there heard something similar.  Now, while that was
    obviously a bad choice in trying to instill good behavior, it seems to be
    working on the same level as "if you are bad, you go to hell".  It is very
    hard to prove mental or emotional child abuse.  Calling up CPS and telling
    them that a christian (or whatever religion) family is abusing their child
    by threating them with hell would only make the caller look insane.  Besides
    it is not so much the words that parents use but the way and intent in
    which they use them.
    As for hell on earth:  sure.  Since I don't believe it exists as another
    place in another dimention after death, and the people who thought it up are
    on the earth, where else could it be?

    Message: 68126
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Cliff's Kids
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 10:05:07

    > My boys know about HELL...   They have not been screwed up.

    I noticed at the GT, and in my other visits to your house, that
    your sons are always well-groomed and quiet, and seem to be
    conducting themselves quite well.  Pretty screwed up if you ask
    me!

    Message: 68127
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Crowded Apollo
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 10:05:56

            I've seen a couple messages recently about difficulty
    getting into Apollo because of busy signals.
            $tatus users should be reminded they can answer with a "$"
    when asked if their name is correct.  This causes the system to
    automatically go through all the user's SIGs (including the Post
    Office) non-stop, reading all new messages.  Now, of course you
    should have a capture buffer open and dumping to disk as you go,
    but it allows you to get everything on the board very quickly.
            When it's done, go off-line and read at your leisure,
    composing replies as you go (If your word processing software
    allows it you can even have the original message on-screen as you
    write!) and saving them as ASCII files.  Then call again and
    upload your replies.
            I got through the entire system this morning in just over
    two and a half minutes and expect to spend less than two more
    sending four public messages and one letter.
            Try it!  It's painless and frees the system up for others!

    Message: 68128
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: the real me/reprise
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 11:46:20

    Like I said a while back, I exist as a separate entity, really I do!
    Ha ha. By the way, I'm happy to be the newest $tatus member of this board
    and I look forward to many philosophical debates...

    Message: 68129
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: buffer
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 11:50:08

    In reference to the suggestion to load everything into a buffer, I'm not
    sure what to do...I suppose I have something like that but I don't know how
    to make it work since I just got this software. I'm running Procomm 1.0. Any
    ideas?

    Message: 68130
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Religion
    Subject: hell + c
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 12:17:52

     It's strange to me how people who can understand the physics of light can
    also belive in hell. As far as my beliefs, if something can not be described
    with mathmatics it doesn't exist. Light can, hell can't. I suppose you can
    scare children with relitivity too though....

    Message: 68131
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: For sale
    Subject: New BBS
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 12:21:35

      John McCain is in big trouble...
      Jim Wright has had it...
      Dick Nixon never had a chance...

    Don't let what happened to them happen to you.
    Join the support group for wayward politicians:

          The Tempe Twenty BBS - 24 hours -
    Uncensored political discussion
    The Jesse Helm Museum of Modern Art
    Live communists...
       call 731-9538  731-9538
    7N1 300 baud
             The Tempe Twenty - We're In Charge 731-9538

    Message: 68132
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 14:26:20

    Re:  "How many here believe that hell is right here - not on Apollo, but
    this world?"

    Interesting statement Annie.  I heard someone once say, "This world is the
    only hell believers will ever know, but the only heaven unbelievers will
    ever know."

    Message: 68133
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 14:26:54

    Re:  "To pass a law that you can't talk about the Devil or Hell is
    utterly stupid!"

    Sad but true.  But the way this old world is going we will probably see it
    come to pass.

    Message: 68134
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 14:27:29

    Re:  "When I was a kid I was told that if I made fun of the Holy Ghost I
    committed the unforgivable sin and was condemned for all eternity. This,
    amongst other things, has warped me for my entire life."

    For your entire life, Roger?  I have always wondered how you got "warped"
    like that.  Ha!

    Never-the-less, anyone who has studied the Bible very much knows the above
    warning is false.  Actually there are quite a few false teachings that are
    based on Bible verses that never existed.  I am very pleased thought that
    you wouldn't lock up your grandmother.

    P.S.  I wonder how Rod got warped?  I wonder if his grandma is in jail?

    Re:  "PROVE that hell is real"

    PROVE that hell isn't real.  I don't think one can prove either, this side
    of death.

    Message: 68135
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 14:27:52

    Re:  "I'm happy to be the newest $tatus member of this board and I look
    forward to many philosophical debates..."

    Congratulations Sandi!  You sound like you're halfway intelligent.  Apollo
    needs more people like you on board.

    Message: 68136
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: bob/hell disproof
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 16:10:08

    If something does not exist, it is impossible to prove that it doesn't. This
    is one of the reasons that the prosecution has the burden of proving the
    guilt of an accused person. Likewise, the burden of proof is on the person
    who asserts "Hell exists." Consider the following fanciful assertion: The
    Universe was created by a group of 3 super-beings from a parallel universe.
    If you say to me (rightfully): "prove it" and I respond with "prove it is
    not true" you would, again rightfully, say that it is impossible to prove
    the non-existence of an entity that does not exist. Hell, God, and other
    objects which may or may not exist, must be proven to be true, for the
    prooff
    of their non-existence, if they truly do not exist is impossible.

    Now, we come to an interesting point. What unprovable things should we
    believe ? Should we disregard all unprovable things ? Some folks, in fact,
    hold to this paradigm.

    Message: 68137
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Old Farts
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 18:54:57

    Jeff L's body hasn't been around the sun enough times to qualify him for the
    Old Farts SIG.

    Message: 68138
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff B/Alias
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 21:35:44

            I'm joking, I'm joking! I didn't do it. If I did do it, I would have
    used a nom de guerre like Fidel Castro or something.

    Message: 68139
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Hell
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 21:43:23

            Please elaborate on my sick sick puppyhood. If I teach my children
    that breaking the law of the land in a serious manner can land them in
    Florence for the rest of their life, do I abuse them? Do you teach your
    children to ignore the laws re: murder, treason, etc? Do you protect their
    young innocences from the fact that crime results often in punishment
    or even sometimes bad times in hard circumstances?
            Well, I try to be fair and teach my children that killing is wrong.
            I also teach them not to reject God.
            But the serious question is: Am I to take your unfounded statement
    with no corroboration, just the fulmination, or do you have some reeasonably
    serious logic behind that absurd accusation?      --John C.--

    Message: 68140
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/religion
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 21:47:45

            Rod, are you really advocating kindness and love? Or are you
    dictating Rod's version of kindness and love and demanding that the world
    accept it?

    Message: 68141
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann/Hell
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 21:56:42

            In the early Middle Ages, the fire, brimstone and devil with
    pitchfork were illustrations used to explain the point that separation from
    God was the worst possible punishment, much worse than fire, brimstone, and
    butt pokes from pitchforks. Artist found it easier to draw fire and
    brimstone than separation, so it became common. It has always been used,
    even in Old Testament times, as an example of real pain, but the Christian
    theology says that the pain of Hell is in separation from God, not burning.
    The theology is that the sinner who blinds himself from God and dies not
    wanting God will be punished by the final knowledge of what he is missing.
    That is not very coherent, but I think clear.   --John C.--

    Message: 68142
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger/Hell
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 22:00:26

            Hell, I don't want to prove that Hell is real! But I think a good
    point can be made for believing in God, and by extension, allowance for
    those whose Christianity calls for Justice. (Hell is the result of that long
    argument on Justice. I don't want to pursue that here, ok?)

    Message: 68143
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Religion
    Subject: {Rod stuph
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 23:02:02

    Parents who use religion have children that use religion...

    "Where'd you learn to do the lord's prayer!?!?

    "I learned it from watching you, ok?"

    Message: 68144
    Author: Richard Smith  (NOTE: Rod Williams)
    Category: Religion
    Subject:The last
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 23:15:38

    Finally and in conclusion I would like to point out that a great part of
    our troubles in this world are a direct result of a belief system that is
    dangerous to the mind.  In fact this belief system has resulted in the
    majority cases of mental illness, not only in this country but throughout
    the world, save for a small percentage of the population.

    When a person goes throughout their life, inwardly believing that what lies
    ahead COULD be eternal punishment because they have been taught it but the
    person has in their own eyes fell short of the goal demanded of them by
    their peers then forms of insanity take over.

    When a person believes this nonsense taught to them about hell being real
    but knows that their mother or father is without their belief then the pain
    suffered by the believer knowing the parent will spend eternity in the
    punishment of hell will cause insanity.

    Just trying to make a decision based on logic by a believer will find them
    stuttering between faith and common sense and usually shades the results.

    It is a world gone mad with many people passing onto others that unless
    they believe like they or their pastor interprets then eternal damnation is
    awaiting.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command ( for help):ER

    Level of shields prevents message entry  ROD'S NOTE: only one message
    allowed.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command ( for help):G

    Goodbye, Richard Smith
    You were on 05:37

    Please hang up now
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    What is your last name:SMITH

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    Is your name correct:Yes

    Caller # 150938 (46 today)
    It is now 08/01/90  23:55:36
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    Message: 68145
    Author: Richard Smith
    Category: Religion
    Subject: last of 2
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 23:28:13

    And the biggest moral crime of all is for an adult to tell to a child that
    a creator exists that has made a torture chamber far worse and for far
    longer than any human ever devised.  That unless they believe as they are
    told that this torture chamber awaits them.  And that this creator is all
    knowing and all loving and does not lift a finger to cause anyone pain or
    suffering but that the individual does it all to themselves.  How sick.

    But you can not hold to blame these mentally deranged people that spread
    this evil because they have been taught it or have grasped it due to a
    maddening and illogical world that is based on greed.  It is in reality an
    escape mechanism that may seem like a lesser of evils but this one part, the
    one that says "eternal hell" is going to far.  This idea of hell is from
    mans basic hatred and the desire to see his inquisitor punished.  It is
    like, "I told you so and now you will be punished forever by my god because
    you have hurt me and do not believe as I do."  It is like a witch who puts a
    curse on those she feels has done her wrong.  It is from mans early
    ignorance and has been passed down through the ages from person to person.

    And it is holding the human animal back from a better, more enlightened
    world, a world that awaits brotherhood and decency to all, regardless of
    race, color OR creed.  -Rod (I had to use this name because Cliff is on my
    case for speaking out.  He breaks in on me and tries to influence through
    bullying.)

    Message: 68146
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeffs
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 00:30:06

    Since there are now TWO Jeffs with status, I propose that Jeff Beck be
    refered to as JB since he seems to have replaced JT.  The new Jeff will have
    to earn his own reputation over time.

    Message: 68147
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Names
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 01:03:08

    Well, to avoid the confusion, when addressing posts to me just refer to my
    alias of Mad Max, believe me, it's one of a kind. That would kind of reduce
    the confusion with all the jeff's on Apollo.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Mail from Melissa Dee
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 08:56:44

    Damn!  I wanted to go to Kinko's today to get my copies done.  Oh well.  I
    hate it when I go to other places cuz people just sit there and read my
    stuff as they copy it.
    Well, happy fucking!

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 08/01/90  Time: 11:33:45

            I tried to call you after I 'playfully' zapped you last night.  But
    you did not answer the phone to my amazment.  Then I felt bad and waited by
    the phone to 4 am this morning...  but sniff..you did not come in.
            I was up late last night because I was sick...and that does not
    leave me in the best of moods.  However, it is difficult tring to get into a
    good mood when you call us Christians names, names, and more names.  I can
    say Atheist *without* putting a colorful metephor in front of it.  Why don't
    you try the same when you talk to us Christians?  I don't mind your views,
    but the hateful namecalling sends me up a wall.  And you claim love..that is
    a crock!

            See ya....

    Oh yea, if you did not see the post... Sandi is all set up on $tatus as you
    asked.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Goodbye, Richard Smith
    You were on 00:49

    Please hang up now
    taQIgRod,_d> G'ENG
    NO CARRIER