### Apollo BBS Archive - September 13, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 04:44:56

    Fnord!

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I liked your "wrench" story.  It was grand.
     2:
    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 19:55:33

            Rod, tired or not, that was a very interesting post. Your concept of
    connected universal energy, and the electrical impulses which each contain
    and which continue after "death" and move aropund as a different kind of
    being is a great concept.
            Matter of fact it sounds very much like some areas of Christianity
    with slightly different words: God for connected universal energy, and the
    soul for the contained electrical impulses. I'm not going to attack or
    defend here, because that is not my bag, but I find it very interesting to
    point it out.
            My question relates to the "spiritual" concept of Life After Death,
    as the Fundamentalists put it. Your electrical impulses which continue after
    what appears to be death--is that nearly the same idea? Do you believe that
    "something" in us (and in animals, too) continues after we "die"?
            Very interesting. Plz comment.    --John C.--

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 20:02:47

            I make a distinction between "communication" and "literacy", do you?
    In other words, a literate person is one who can use his language to express
    events in time past, time future, express concepts non-material, like truth,
    beauty, etc, and who can understand or appreciate the written form of the
    language.
            Of course, children and the untrained cannot do so, but they have
    the ability to become literate--only humans have that ability, I submit. If
    you have evidence of such literacy in other beings, I'd like to see it. If
    you maintain that this literacy isd not of a nature to distinguish
    ESSENTIALLY man from beast, I'd like to hear that, also.   --John C.--
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:What makes you think that birds, salmon, sea turtles, cockroaches and
     2:elephants cannot communicate about past, present and future with each other?
     3:
     4:Just because we do not understand their language or means of communication
     5:in our day and age does not make true.
     6:
     7:Man, including man's science is still in the dark ages and will be for some
     8:time to come.  It is still early.  We cannot judge that which we are
     9:incapable of understanding.  The Inquisition was a prime example of this and
    10:back then you ask anyone and they'll tell you that they are living in a
    11:modern age.
    12:
    13:Anything that can be imagined (such as evidenced by the Star Fish and Crabs,
    14:Humans, etc.) can be had and once those goals are reached then more will be
    15:imagined.
    16:
    17:We are living in a rough period of evolution but it has in our history
    18:always been rough.  The only thing though that concerns me is that we have
    19:weapons that can destroy the planet (even though we are doing a good job of
    20:it on a environmental level right now) and these weapons on in the hands of
    21:ape-like creatures who only have half a brain, if that (all humans).
    22:
    23:Take care,  Rod

    Mail to John Cummings
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 22:07:29

    When you ask ("and in animals too") in your previous post I must again point
    out that a human is an animal not so much unlike a lot of other animals.  We
    all have our special defense mechanisms.  Look at the Star Fish for
    instance.  In you literally tear one in half then two Star Fish form.  Can
    man do that?  Take a crab and rip a leg off but check with it in a few weeks
    and 'presto', a new leg is appearing.  Can the human animal do that?  No.

    But it is possible that humans will one day, in our evolution, be able to do
    all those things because none of the species of the earth has stopped
    evolving.  Though some kinds have run into a dead end, so to speak and
    perhaps will never appear again.

    The possibilities of what life can achieve are totally without limit of any
    kind, given the sum of eternity.  We are relatively new life, or so it
    seems, in the universe.  At least I know that our intelligence has a long
    way to go before we can be consdidered a species of intelligence.

    I haven't the foggiest what happens at the end of a persons physical life.
    And there hasn't been a book written that can adequately explain it.  I
    would think that since our electrical system is about equal to a 9 volt
    battery and since it is more or less trapped in the heavy and confining
    atmosphere of this planet that we remain here, for the time being.

    But the life of this earth or even that of our entire galaxy is but a
    mili-second in eternity, if that long.  No, life has a lot to see and a long
    while to see it in, eternity in fact.

    Early(ier) man saw a need for a Great Protector and I would imagine that you
    and I were a part of it but I can't prove that theory, that we were a part
    of early man.

    When it is bitter cold and the sun, our central star, appears to be going
    away then it was time to try anything.  Sacrifice a lamb, a goat, a human,
    burn weeds, dance, make prayers, all to make the sun come back and warm the
    planet....and it always did.  So the prayers appeared to work.  Winter
    Solstice is the day of the year when the sun 'starts coming back' and gave
    rise to a celebration.  This day was later stolen by some religious people
    who call themselves Christians.  Easter was stolen as it was Spring Equinox
    when new life was pushing out of the ground.  The egg symbolizes birth and
    the coming harvests.

    Again, all life in the universe has a common bond and is equal.  If there
    was this great big intelligent thing that created all life then it made a
    big mistake.  Little children suffer and that bothers me to no end.  Look
    around.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69512
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/Compass
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 01:13:47

      Which compass direction would the compass point?  It depends on how you
    hold it.  Assuming that you mean that the compass points in the direction of
    its "NORTH" indicator, you could point that indicator in any direction you
    want.
      Or do you mean in which direction the *needle* will point?  Well, the
    compass direction it points in is always "north".  It's designed that way.
      Oops.  Backtrack on that last.  It depends on the manufacturer.  If it's
    anyone but "Tates", you're all right.  But Tates makes really rotten
    compasses, and they're likely to point in any direction at all.  He who has
    a Tates is lost.

            ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 69513
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Jeff/Gold &c
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 01:16:18

      So which weighs more, an ounce of gold, or an ounce of feathers?

      I bought an 18-ounce bottle of ketchup the other day.  Is 18 ounces more
    than a pint, less than a pint, or a pint exactly?

      How many mules are there on a twenty-mule team?

      Where was the Battle of Bunker's Hill fought?

      Who wrote Mozart's 37th Symphony?

      Who's buried in Grant's Tomb?

      Where was Moses when the lights went out?

                  =(O,o)=  Ouch!

    Message: 69514
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/solid info
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 02:44:29

    He's a land developer.

    In the New York Public Library Desk Reference, land developers are listed as
    Class VI Super-Weasels, right next to record producers.

    Message: 69515
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Bayer
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 02:51:19

    Maybe, but no doubt their analysts have carefully studied the matter and
    determined that $8.89 for 200 is the price which would bring them maximum
    returns.  A penny more and people would think it less of a bargain, a penny
    less and people would wonder why Bayer was so fond of the number eight,
    start a rumor that the president of Bayer worships Satan, and down the tubes
    they go, just like Proctor & Gamble.

    You think I'm joking...*I* think I'm joking, but its probably not too far
    from the truth.  You wouldn't believe the amount of money and manpower that
    goes into marketing a product, particularly where the ads are concerned.
    Rest assured; if you see a Bayer ad where the room has blue curtains over a
    window in the background, half a dozen psychologists, sociologists, ad men,
    and polling bureau representatives have determined that a blue curtain will
    sell more aspirin than a red curtain.

    Message: 69516
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Steve/ounces
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 03:10:41

    Both troy ounces and avoirdupois ounces have 480 grains, so they are equal.
    Eighteen fluid ounces is .532 liter.  One fluid pint is .473 liter.
    Therefore, eighteen ounces of ketchup is more than one pint, assuming that
    both are fluid measures.  Don't know about the mules.  Breeds Hill.  There
    is no 37th symphony (guess).  Grant and his wife were entombed above ground
    in Grant's "tomb."  Moses who?

    Drat!  I know I have a book around here that tells about the mules.

    "He who has a Tates is lost."    Whew!!

    Wait a minute...ketchup ounces refer to net weight...drat you!  And both dry
    pints and liquid pints measure volume.  Therefore, the question is
    meaningless.  I think.

    Message: 69517
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Compass
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 03:13:36

    OK, my wording was ambiguous.  Actually, I think I unintentionally misled
    you.  But Rod Williams got it correct anyway.  Congratulations, Rod.

    Message: 69518
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mark/Coca Cola
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 04:20:16

    One part of Coca Cola syrup is mixed with 5 parts carbonated water to
    produce Coca Cola.

    The product at drugstores is indeed called "coca cola syrup."  I saw it on
    the shelf a couple of years ago, and was mystified by the lack of a
    trademark.  Perhaps I will investigate.

    Message: 69519
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/investigation
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 04:40:21

    OK, I'll be interested in just what the stuff is and how they get away with
    that.

    Message: 69520
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: ELection day
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 05:51:42

     According to the figures, abot 3 ot of 4 Republicans indicated that they
    did not want Evan Mecham returned to office. Thank God! I only hope that
    this defeat has put a stone on his political grave, or is that too much to
    wish for?
     I also hope that the campaign to follow can be waged on the issues, instead
    of the mudslinging, muckraking Mecham type of politicking. THere are many
    needs in Arizona that must be addressed, and it would be good to know how
    each of the candidates stand on those, in clear and concise terms. (Of
    course, politician and clear and concise are probably mutually exclusive
    terms.) Oh well, at least I hope they keep it clean.

    Message: 69521
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/Symington
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 06:04:17

     On the surface, what we have is a choice between a Harvard graduate with
    lots of money and a Harvard graduate with lots of money who also happens to
    be a former governor's son.
     From that point, Goddard and Symington seem to polarize in different
    directions. Goddard is a tax and spend liberal, who has left a trail of
    political "toys" in his path, some in good repair, some broken.(Valscam, Rio
    Salado, Colangelo's new playhouse, Bufman's amphitheater, the rich
    Europeans' street race, Patriot's square.)
     Symington, on the other hand, although a political unknown, seems to
    espouse some pretty conservative philosophies. Fiscal responsibility is a
    big buzzword with him. He is against the ACE program, which in my opinion is
    to his credit, since the thinking that throwing more money at a problem is
    as flawed as throwing fuel on a fire.
     Personally, I am leaning in the direction of Symington, but will be
    studying the campaign closely to find out more. A lot more.

    Message: 69522
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Governor's race
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 06:31:19

    Cliff, why don't you wait for the [V]ote until the time to file for
    candidacy has passed.  Perhaps some conservative who didn't already run in
    the primary is going to challenge those twins.

    Message: 69523
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Primaries
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 06:37:17

    Well, there are a whole bunch of Whiners in this state who claim that they
    are 'left out' or disenfranchised because they aren't registered with the
    party which has an interesting primary.  To this, I say, TOUGH!  If you
    align yourself philosophically with a party, then you register with that
    party, and get active in that PARTY'S politics.  If you aren't aligned
    philosophically with a given party, aren't registered, then you KEEP YOUR
    NOSE OUT OF THAT PARTY'S POLITICS.  The party's politics aren't the state's
    politics.  As a citizen of this state, you have the right to vote in any
    general or special election -- for candidates placed on the ballot by
    primaries/parties, or by candidates who file as Independents.

    Personally, I don't quite understand why parties don't require some kind of
    "just like us test" to make sure that Republicans aren't really sneaky
    Democrats out to make the wrong person be the Republican candidate.

    Message: 69524
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:33:05

      I was under the impression that an avoirdupois ounce had 437.5 grains, so
    it would be smaller than an troy ounce.  Now I have to go check it out.

        ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 69525
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Beck
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:39:39

      There are eighteen mules on a twenty-mule team (and two horses).

      All right.    Where was *Moishe* when the lights went out?

      Good shot on the ketchup ounces, so now I don't have to restate the
    question in a more obviously meaningless way, like, "is eighteen ounces
    more than, less than, or equal to a right angle...to an hour...to a
    kilometer...&c."

      No, there *is* a Mozart's 37th Symphony.  But who wrote it?

            ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 69526
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Compass
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:41:25

      I'm not sure what your ruling was on the compass question.  Rod's seems to
    be that it points south.  Mine is that the compass-direction that it points
    in is north, which is an obtuse way of saying towards magnetic north, rather
    than towards the north.
      What was *your* answer?

           ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

    Message: 69527
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Beck/Aspirin
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:46:14

      If you had a *splitting* headache, would $8.89 be too much to pay for 200
    aspirin (considering that after you took a couple, you'd still have 99 doses
    left for the next time)?
      If so, then buy the aspirin and shut up.
      If not, then put up with the headache and shut up.
      Or if you'd rather buy generic aspirin at a lower price, then buy them and
    shut up.
      What's to argue about?  Bayer hasn't driven all the competition out of
    business, so they can't be called monopolistic, in my opinion.  They do what
    all other manufacturers of everything do, if they can:  charge the price
    that gains the greatest return on investment.

              We all live in a   ____nhnn________   yellow subroutine

    Message: 69528
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bible/scholarship
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:55:41

    I'll take intelligent scholarship over religious dogmatism any day.

    Message: 69529
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/ Christ
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 07:57:05

    Or God can transform us so that we live our lives as little Christs.

    Message: 69530
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/syntax
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:06:24

    Yes, my sentence illustrates the dilemma perfectly. How do we talk about
    a pile of bricks without the words "pile of bricks?" I think it would be
    interesting to get Chomsky's book. The abstract syntax class was one day. It
    was a class on ASN.1  (Abstract Syntax Notation 1) It is intended to solve
    the problem of describing objects unambiguoslly. It has a set of primitive
    names such as BOOLEAN, INTEGER, CHOICE, SET, SEQUENCE and a syntax to create
    sentences. It is intended to be rigorous so that Compilers can be built to
    create instances of definitions based upon encoding rules. File Transfer
    Access and Management (FTAM) is one protocol that is described in ASN.1.
    Theoretically, two people who never have met each other having a correct
    description of a protocol in ASN.1 and an agreed-upon encoding rule could
    communicate with each other without having to work out the details
    before-hand. While this seems to work for syntax, it doesn't solve the
    semantic problem. So, we get folks who adhere to the ASN.1 descriptions but
    interpret the meaning of the objects differently and fail at another level.

    Message: 69531
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/chronochauvinis
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:10:18

     Do, you think that the "explanations" derived are closer to the truth.
    For example, Ptolemy's view of the universe was way off, and when Copernicus
    explained the universe in heliocentric terms, Copernicus's explanation was
    closer to the truth.

    Message: 69532
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/BBS line
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:11:46

    Of course, that's true. In fact, I get much more noise from the 862
    exchange than I do from the 998 exchange.

    Message: 69533
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: steve/bunkerism
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:14:41

    Breed's Hill.

    Message: 69534
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Politics
    Subject: mudslinging
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:17:24

    Yeah. I can tell it will be a campaign based on the issues. The first
    editorial cartoon showed Terry Goddard looking like Mike Dukakis.

    Message: 69535
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: steve/mozart
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:19:46

    his student ? The one who allegedly finished the Requiem ?

    Message: 69536
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Daryl on Bible
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:44:31

    Re: "everything that we need to know about God is in the Bible"!
    Hey - that's not true - I want to know more - where God came from?
    When is Christ's second coming? Date, time, place!!! Why didn't God come
    down Himself instead of sending Jesus. Why did He create this world and it's
    inhabitants? Why didn't he zap Satan? He has no trouble zapping humans!
    (Sodom & Gomorrah - the Plagues of Egypt - The Battle of Jerico etc. etc.)
    Why all the secrecy? Why did He create us when He knew the outcome? Why do
    humans have to suffer for something a couple people did - Adam & Eve?
    If He inspired the Bible, then why is it so complicated to understand?
    Surely He knew this would be the case! Why has He allow inconsistencies in
    it? Contradictions? Now don't say there isn't any, because there is. Sure,
    man put those in there but why did God let them in such an important book -
    the link between God and man so to speak!!??!! You might ask - "what
    inconsistencies or contradictions - the flood is a good example - the Bible
    says it covered the world - we know that isn't true by a long shot. There
    was a flood, yes, but not that big. Noah could not have taken all the
    species on that small ark and we know that too. According to dates of the
    Bible, this all happened about 6,000 years ago, right? Mankind was supposed
    to have came into being over 8,000 years ago and that can't be either. Even
    in 20,000 years! These to me are inconsistencies. Any comments?
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69537
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ralphy baby
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 08:50:17

    I see your wit is as sharp as ever dear. You know, Cliff said the same thing
    when I'd go to the store or his house - "Oh God, here she is again!" Ha ha.
    I get that reaction from people often. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69538
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul/Symington
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 09:34:54

            I know all about Goddard's political 'toys' and such... that is why
    he won't be getting my Vote!    Thanks for your input on Symington.  I too
    am against the ACE program, so just maybe I will drive the .8 mile to the
    polls and give him my support...  ahhh, what the heck, I'm going to be there
    anyway since there are several important propositions on the ballot.

            Jeff B., I knew he was a land developer....  That is why I don't
    fully trust him......

                                            clif-

    Message: 69539
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: HEY!
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 10:03:46

    In message 69501, I answered the question correctly AND first.  Where is my
    little gold star to put on my head?!

    Message: 69540
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Vote
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 10:36:23

    Both men are in the hip pocket of the Phoenix 40, so it should make no
    matter which is in office. The Phoenix 40 will still rule the state.

    Message: 69541
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/ASN.1
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 10:41:44

    Now, my friend, the problem for you (and me) is to prove that ASN.1 and
    Basic Encoding Rules generates a set of solutions that are correct. How
    do we go about doing that ?

    Message: 69542
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Phoenix 40
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 10:43:04

    Would someone please provide some hard facts about the Phoenix 40 and how
    they "rule" Phoenix and just what it is THEY do that is so bad ?

    Message: 69543
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 11:44:54

    I captured your posts and here are my comments re: them ...

    DW: "But Ann, the Law that Christ fulfilled (for us) has existed
    long before Christ ever came along and yet it never saved
    anyone."

    Then you ARE saying that everyone before Christ went to hell??? I
    know that you and other's have denied making this statement, but
    yet, you always seem to come back to that. Did or did not they go
    to hell?? When I was a Lutheran, we were told that they did not
    because of their belief in the Messiah's coming! (Jews) When I
    was a Catholic, they didn't outright say everyone went to hell,
    but certainly implied it! Some religions will say all other's
    believing in other gods, Buddhists, Islamic's etc. will
    definitely go to hell and other's do not.

    That brings up another good question - why do the Christian
    religions differ so much? They even bicker among themselves.
    I don't know of one that doesn't believe that 'their way' is THE
    WAY!

    DW: "How can an atheist follow the Ten Commandments?"

    Why not? He does not have to believe in the first one to follow
    all the rest. It is a good list - an example to live by and if we
    all did, it'd certainly be a better world.

    Re: the word Agnostic - isn't that a person that is simply
    searching? He neither believes nor disbelieves. Right? He may
    weigh each subject - believe in God but not completely what the
    Bible says, or a religion. He may not believe in God, but still
    wonders about it - or says flat out he just doesn't know. Isn't
    this all a good description of an Agnostic? He walks the line so
    to speak. He too could follow and believe in the 10 Commandments.

    Re: Matt: chap. 5, verse 48: Jesus says "You therefore, must be
    perfect as you heavenly Father is perfect." It is the chapter
    that explains the 10 Commandments. Now I don't see any room there
    in that statement that says you can't be perfect if you so
    wished.  I know you will come back and say that you are made
    perfect in a belief in Jesus, but I still ask why a human can't
    be just as sinless as Jesus was?? Impossible? Why?

    Which one of the commandments are impossible for mankind to
    follow ..... Adultery? That's an easy one to NOT do or think
    about. Steal? Easy too. Take the Lords name in vain? Just don't
    open your mouth and say such things! The hardest one is Love thy
    neighbor as thyself (enemies also) - but that can be done too.
    Honor thy father and thy mother - do not murder in heart or
    otherwise - do not envy - covet, etc. etc. You know the list! Ha.
    But I ask you, which of these does mankind find impossible at ALL
    times to obey? Obviously, Jesus obeyed them at ALL times, right?
    If He was tempted and turned His face from it, why can't we?
    Where was/what was He tempted over that we couldn't have done the
    same thing and call ourselves sinless too??? Alright, the Bible
    states: Matt. chap. 5, verse 27: (Jesus speaking) "You have heard
    that it was said, 'you shall not commit adultery,' but I say to
    you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already
    committed adultery with her in his heart." I say that's one of
    the Bible's contradictions - if Jesus was tempted, He had to
    think on the things He was tempted over - therefore, He was a
    sinner! Do you see my reasoning here? In other words, how can
    someone be tempted without sinning through thinking about it?

    Along the same line --- if a man lusts after a women in his heart
    and keeps it up without trying to stop it, I can see where this
    would be just as grievous of a sin as doing it, but what if it's
    only a passing thought - the man realizes he lusts, so he puts a
    stop to it immediately. Is this sinning? He may have a fleeting
    thought of envy, but if he immediately overcomes this thought, is
    he still sinning? If so, then I say Jesus would have had to be a
    sinner too because He knew the difference between good and bad.
    The bad certainly wasn't automatically blanked out of His mind
    was it? He was tempted and over came the Bible says - tempted
    with what - good? Do you see my point?

    Lets talk a bit about lust here - God gave that to mankind didn't
    He along with a murderous heart, an envious nature? Therefore,
    man cannot but help at least to have fleeting thoughts on these.
    Jesus must have too, being human. He could not have been truly
    human without them!

    DW: "It's not a matter of "maybe ..." it's a fact , "He never
    sinned nor was found to be deceitful when He spoke"!

    DW: "He was tempted in every way just as we are - yet He remained
    without sin."

    I think my other posts talks about this and explains how I feel
    about it. I hope you comment on them.

    DW: " Filling in what you feel is missing from the Scriptures
     .... etc. etc. Why wouldn't anyone want to fill in? I think it
    is natural curiosity - which by-the-way, God gave to man too.
    Anything that is so spread out - not complete - contradictory -
    written in some language that even the people of it's day didn't
    fully comprehend -  full of man's tampering over the centuries
    would call for a 'filling in' don't you think?  A searching.
    Some of it sounds/comes across as if it were written by a mad
    man.  Revelations is a good case in point. I think the man had a
    nightmare so vivid, he thought it must be from God!  This is a
    very important part of the Bible and you would have thought God
    would have been just a tad more clear. Makes no sense at all.

    According to the Bible, religions in general, the Koran, the
    Buddhist documents, or any other type of this material always
    says that God made man and that means He gave man all of the so
    called sinful things  - envy, lust, murder, adultery, words with
    which to take His name in vain with, dishonor, stealing,
    worshiping false gods, etc. etc. Then He goes to great lengths to
    punish these humans for the things He gave them to begin with -
    He has killed multitudes whether they be innocent or not along
    with the guilty - He let His own son die very horribly on the
    cross - and several of the Apostles that were preaching His word
    to the multitudes. Would not man be sinful if he did the very
    same things? And you say we shouldn't 'fill in'???? You say all
    we should know about God is in the Bible??? I don't think so and
    I will remain curious all my life and try to find, look for other
    answers that are not in there. The more I read it, the more I can
    see it doesn't explain but very little. It is basically a
    chronicle of the Jewish race. Perhaps the truth is in there, but
    it's sure covered up very well. Thanks again to God for giving us
    that talent to muddle things up! We use it often.

    A brief comment about Satan --- it seems to me that you and
    others are saying that he really has more power than God does -
    he shows his face more often, etc. I happen to not believe in the
    devil - any devil. That what we call sin is just what we were
    born with from Adam and Eve on down. In other words, our
    conscious. (Sp?)  If that isn't the case and both God and Satan
    are working on you all the time, how come Satan wins most of
    time?  Not a silly question either. Before Satan was sent to hell
    and got his own place, he must have been knowledgeable about what
    was going to happen to him if he turned his face from God. After
    all, he was an Archangel of the highest order. Right? God's
    favorite too. The Bible said he aspired to be like God - like a
    god and God sent him to hell for this? If the Bible is right and
    there is ONLY ONE GOD, then what was the problem? Satan therefore
    could never be like God! He could try for an eternity and it'd
    never happen, yet God sent His favorite to hell for ever. Isn't
    imitation the greatest of flattery? I find that believing in the
    devil is liken to believing in the mythical dragon. It only
    existed in the minds of men.
    Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to comment and hope that you
    will continue commenting in the future. This is not meant to be a
    war - only curiosity on my part and I like conversations of this sort
    - I once believed pretty much as you do - but now I have all these questions
    and I wonder why you aren't asking the same things?!

    Message: 69550
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann/posts 1-7
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 12:30:40

    Excellent posts. Thanks for putting into words a lot of the same thoughts
    and questions I have. I especially like the one where Jesus adds an
    additional caveat to the adultery no-no just in case some of us thought we
    were in good shape goodness-wise. (Remember Jimmy Carter --- his initials
    are
    JC too !) If Christ didn't lust in his heart, then he was not human for all
    humans have lusted in their hearts.

    Message: 69551
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Modems FREE!
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 17:46:42

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    Message: 69552
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: I will be
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 18:24:57

    A) I have always existed and I will always exist(and if I'm wrong, I'll
    never know, huh?) and I think I'll be able to afford some beachfront
    property by then
    or
    B) Time is circular, not linear and in four and a half billion years, we
    should make our way back to the paleozoic and I'll be out collecting future
    fossils...

    Message: 69553
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: vote
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 18:27:17

    I voted. I haven't missed an election since I turned 18.

    Message: 69554
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: All/politics
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 20:56:22

            I'll be gone for two weeks of attitude adjustment, navel
    contemplation, examination of conscience, and suffering for my sins by the
    lack of Apollo.
            And by the lack of anything sensible in Arizona politics. We now
    have two Harvard grads running for governor. I share the opinion that
    Goddared is the greater evil and I'll close my eyes, swallow hard, clench
    my fists, hunch my shoulders, and vote for Symington. There is a rumor that
    if elected, he'll appointed Jeff Beck and Sam Steiger to be his chief
    administrative assistants, so there may be hope.
            While I'm gone, I hope someone will clarify the environmental
    quandary: why do we kill tuna, save dolphins, halt construction of the
    cleanest and safest form of energy (nuclear) while sending 250,000 troops
    and a bunch of hardware to keep the oil flowing from Persia so we don't use
    the oil in Alaska?
            Clif, we live in a crazy world. Keep your powder dry and your weapon
    clean.          --John C.--

    Message: 69555
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: headache/aspirin
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 22:41:02

    I rarely get headaches but when I do I usually get rid of them fairly easy.
    I can't remember the last time I took an aspirin.

    First make sure that your body is functioning properly.  Close your mouth
    and test each nostril and be certain that both are clear and that you can
    breath easily from them.

    Then exhale, keeping your mouth closed (mouths are primilarly for eating
    moreso than for breathing) then snort some oxygen from the air around you if
    there is any.  A good place to do the snorting is around a lot of green
    plant material as a fresh supply is usually available.  Plastic plants look
    pretty but do not help.

    Snort in, exhale, snort in, exhale.  Then  take a swig of this dark, thick,
    rich, gooey syrup called molasses although coca cola extract may also work
    especially if the machinery hasn't been cleaned in a while.

    But if your headache is being caused by back problems then visit a good body
    wrencher but keep those breaths coming.

    Oxygen is a very powerful substance.  It not only keeps us alive but sends
    projectiles to the moon and back.  It is the best brain food that I know
    about and when I don't get enough of it then I take Bayer Aspirin.

    Message: 69556
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/will be
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 22:50:48

    I like your first paragraph answer the best.  I look at the universe and
    eternity and having nothing to measure and cut into sections therefore time
    does not really exist in that capacity.

    All that really exists is lots of mass in continous motion forever, changing
    this way and that way and not really repeating itself as the universe is
    probably expanding.  All life is connected and equal as we shall most
    probably find out.  We now are just naked apes who are out of control
    because we are still basically ignorant of more than we already know.

    It's just a damn rough period of evolution and the heat from the sun
    conbined with the humidity makes it no fun outdoors.

    Message: 69557
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/ 1-7
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 22:53:12

    I will read those gems off-line but I will take Roger's word for it that
    they are well put because I respect his posts.

    But o'god, you did it and now we will have to hear Daryl's 1-33 posts of
    Bible quotes and what not.  But I'm sure that he will again explain to you
    that everything YOU or I need to know is right there in that little black
    book.  (I've got my own little black book).

    Message: 69558
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 09/13/90  Time: 22:56:25

    Your post was good, well put and worthy of thought.  I don't know the
    answers as I'd only be guessing.  Something to do with wealth and economics
    I suppose.  Used to have to do with Communists then the scapegoat became
    Drugs.  ??

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