### Apollo BBS Archive - July 1, 1991

    Mail from Melissa Dee
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 16:34:18

    Yeah, I tried to be nice and sociable towards him and the next day he posted
    some message on here about how all people are idiots and he pretends to like
    them, or something.  I just do my part in helping him by not saying anything
    at all and ignoring him.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Mark, well many of us had strange childhoods, as you know.  I see Mark as
     2:very intelligent and I'd like to see him use it to help make some necessary
     3:changes in our society.  But then again I feel that way about everyone I
     4:meet.  The more the merrier.  I'd like to be part of the revolution and not
     5:just a bystander without a position.
     6:
     7:It will be nice to see your books at Metrophobobia.  I'm going to have some
     8:buttons there.
     9:
    10:I will make one that says, "I am Woman, hear Me Bitch."  I'll give you a
    11:cut.
    12:Say hi to Ron and I'll see you around.

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 7489
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod/Excretion
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 07:43:54

    I'm glad I get bottled water.

    Message: 7490
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Writers Cramp
    Subject: Writing & Falling
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:16:14

    > An impressive collection.

    I wish my income were more impressive.  :(

    > How did you get into the tech writing biz?

            I've never quite been convinced I'm in the tech writing business.
    The majority of my writing projects could probably better be described as
    "informational" in nature.  The software manual end of things is still kind
    of an offshoot, although it's a relatively lucrative offshoot.
            I sort of fell into writing myself.  Once I found broadcasting was
    too cutthroat for me, I managed to start producing training videotapes at
    work and eventually moved into a full-time position doing that.  It soon
    became apparent I enjoyed writing and designing programs much more than I
    enjoyed producing them, so that's where I've tried to steer myself.  During
    that process I found fun in just about any kind of writing.

    > The IMT product is very impressive for the money.

    I'll have to check it out.  Since working with Zuma Group's multimedia
    package I've (once again) become very intrigued with the potential of
    computer-based training and communication.

    Message: 7491
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dave Bolman
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 09:57:33

    My HMO dropped my job shop a few months ago, apparently because too many
    people got sick to be profitable.

    Message: 7492
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bill/Multimedia
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 13:03:59

    Do you use the Amiga's multimedia tools ?

    Message: 7493
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/bottled
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:11:46

    Perhaps if half to three fourths of the human animal population of the world
    were to die in short order, another Renaissance would come about.  The Black
    Plague, AIDS, earth upheaval, whatever, could make it happen again.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4876
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Who-dun-it
    Subject: Mel's Poem
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:17:17

    A lovely, painful poem, Melissa.  Thanks.

    Message: 4877
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Last two
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 16:42:08

    Yes, and thank you, thank you.
    I thought it would inhance the Ann/Gordon/Paul debate on abuse.

    Message: 4878
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 23:23:35

    That was inspired, Melissa!  Very poignant...  I hope it does.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC?

    [$]#!+                   [A]nswer !
    [B]eyond...              [C]osmos-Chatter
    [E]rotic Stories         [H]OT-SEX !
    [I]n & Out               [J]okes & Ha Ha's
    [K]issing What?          [L]ove & Sex
    [P]ositions Plus         [Q]uickie
    [R]e-BuTTal              [S]hit-Chat!
    [T]hang!                 [U]p Yours
    [W]ho-dun-it

    Enter category, [?] for list:I

    You chose In & Out

    Subject:Poem

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:A worthy piece.
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 4879

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1858
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Expired Soul
    Subject: Little Joe
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 18:28:13

            Well, it is pretty quiet on the Ponderosa now days.  Dan Blocker,
    Lorren Green and now Michael Landon (age 54) are now gone.  Yes, you
    probably have heard the news, Landon died today (7/01/91) of cancer.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- sniff (tm)

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Closer to the Renaissance.
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 1859

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:JN

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Late Night Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 2047
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Growl...
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:16:43

    Still in the bootleg business, Daryl?

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Not perfect, just forgiven.
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 2048

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 76208
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 03:43:02

      MC>I think the $6.00 estimated rate is $3.00 too high and that these
      MC>leprous lipped, candy injesting rectifiers at the phone
      MC>company should provide the CID for free to start with.

    This is quite true; the phone companies are only charging what they think
    the market will bear, not what it costs *them* to provide the service.  It
    probably costs them nothing apart from the initial setup.  It's worth noting
    that the phone company charges for touch-tone service that costs them
    nothing to provide.  In fact, frequently touch-tone service is actually
    available on the line even if you haven't applied for it.  But they know if
    you use it or not, and they then "ask" you to pay for it.  The only reason
    the charge for touch-tone service has dropped is that the companies want to
    encourage everyone to use it so that they can dump their old pulse-dial
    equipment.

    Message: 76209
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/abuse
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 03:43:58

      AO>I just don't think there are enough people from abusive homes that will
      AO>probably abuse their children to teach it in schools!

    What percentage of abused kids do you think there ought to be before it does
    become necessary to address the problem?  Ten percent?  Will twenty do?
    I'll grant that the kind of horrible example Paul was quoting is a pretty
    small minority (thank goodness), but I'd stake good money that a *minimum*
    of ten percent of children are beaten a lot more severely than they ought to
    be, and it wouldn't surprise me to see figures a lot higher.  Perhaps
    someone else has definite statistics.  If you count various kinds of
    emotional abuse that occur, you'd be looking at a good twenty or thirty
    percent of homes where the children are being more or less damaged in some
    way -- perhaps ways that don't show, but will handicap them in later life.

    Even if we're not talking about "abuse", a huge percentage of parents could
    probably do a better job than they do with handling their kids.  If all that
    education did was to raise the general standard of parenting somewhat and
    help relieve stresses within families that lead to abuse, it would be far
    more worth while than PE.

    The difficulty with statistics is in knowing where to draw the line that
    defines physical abuse.  When does a mild spank become an overdone spank,
    and when does it become a vicious beating?  For comparison, it's helpful to
    look at sexual abuse, because sexual abuse either happens or it doesn't.

    According to one study, seventy percent of young prostitutes and eighty
    percent of all female drug users were found to have been sexually assaulted
    in childhood by a family member.  Something like one in *four* girls are
    subjected to sexual contact with an adult before the age of thirteen.  The
    offender is likely to be a family member, frequently the father.  If this is
    the rate of sexual abuse, what is the rate for physical abuse likely to be?

      AO>I don't fully go along with this excuse that people were abused so
      AO>therefore, they will abuse!!

    First, there's a lot of difference between an excuse and a motivation.  Of
    course being abused is not an *excuse* to abuse others, because we're all
    responsible for our own actions.  But it *is* a motivation.  It's
    justifiable and necessary to confront the abuser with his acts, and do
    whatever is required to make him stop.  All the same, we'd be much better
    off if we also used every method in the arsenal to help people confront
    their own motivation to abuse, and prevent them from motivating the next
    generation to perpetuate the pattern.

      AO>It seems to me that if a person were abused, they'd go just the
      AO>opposite and spoil their children.

    Sorry, this just isn't true.  Studies bear it out without question.  Mind
    you, if you are abused you don't have to be an abuser; we do have free will.

    But the motivation will be there all the same, unless it's dealt with.  Not
    all abused children become abusers, but there is a very high probability
    that they will.

    To understand why this happens, we must bear in mind that we're not dealing
    with conscious, rational thought processes.  It's true that people do know
    what cruelty is, they usually recognize that it's wrong, and the majority of
    people do at least try to be good parents.  But -- surprise! they often find
    that they are doing abusive things to their children *anyway*.  It's a lot
    of buried anger that they've never confronted about their own abuse, and
    unthinkingly -- subconsciously -- they take it out on their children.  More
    often than not they will rationalize what they do by saying "well, it's the
    way my parents raised me, and I turned out perfectly all right."  But the
    truth is that they didn't "turn out all right"; they turned out to be
    abusers.  And abusers, furthermore, who deny that they are abusive -- just
    as their own parents did.

    I had an interesting personal experience about this.  I knew a woman whom I
    considered abusive.  She was always shouting at her children and hitting
    them with a strap.  I rarely heard her say anything kind to them.  On one
    occasion she was talking about her parents, and how she and her sisters were
    raised very strictly and got hit a lot and so forth.  Then she went on to
    say more or less exactly what you said about how it makes a child more
    likely to appreciate kindness and use it when he or she becomes a parent.

    So I told her no, that wasn't true, and it was usually just the opposite.
    She then became *very* thoughtful and didn't say anything for a while...

      AO>I think basically, these people are cruel...  they just want to hurt
      AO>someone.

    Absolutely true, they are.  But what do you think is the best way of
    *raising* somebody to be cruel?  The overwhelming majority of violent
    criminals, especially serial killers and so forth turn out to have a
    background of severe abuse as children.  We have a vital interest in
    stopping children from "learning" cruelty.

      AO>No education is going to change that.

    Not overnight, no.  Unfortunately many kids are already severely damaged by
    abuse by the time they get in school, and they continue to be abused through
    their school life.  What education *can* hope to do is three things.

    First, it should have a modest but significant effect over a broad front.
    By teaching parenting techniques that are both effective and humane, it
    should raise the overall standard of parenting for the next generation.  We
    have to admit that there is more trouble with kids today than there was a
    generation ago, and we can only attribute this to the way kids are being
    raised.  We have to turn this around, even if it's a long process.

    If good parents can be taught to be outstanding parents; if mediocre parents
    can become halfway competent parents; if potentially abusive parents can at
    least see ways to avoid or curb their worst abuses, this is a start.  Then
    the next generation can be jacked up another notch, and so on.  I've
    indicated in my posts a number of areas where specific techniques could be
    taught to handle children more effectively and less stressfully.  These are
    based on sound interpersonal psychology that works.

    Secondly, those children who have already been abused can be taught
    authoritatively that abuse is wrong.  Don't believe for a moment that
    parents who abuse their children are necessarily "ostracized by society", or
    even *used* to be.  The worst offenders would be ostracized when found out;
    but the real crime is to be found out.  A massive amount of abuse is hidden.
    Marginal cases of abuse are condoned by other parents who are doing the same
    thing themselves.  Sexual abuse especially is hidden because it leaves no
    scars -- externally -- and children don't speak out because they are
    ashamed.  But all kinds of abuse are covered up by children out of loyalty
    to their parents, on whom they are of course totally dependent.  And
    eventually they internalize this loyalty to their parents' childrearing
    methods as well.

    Teaching children that abuse is wrong can encourage some of them to speak
    out and enable intervention in the family to stop it.  Probably this scares
    a lot of parents, which is why such education gets mixed support.

    Finally, even those children who are abused and don't speak out can at least
    gain some insight into what is being done to them.  They will be encouraged
    to look at childrearing -- and into their own minds -- with a more critical
    eye, and not swallow what their parents "taught" them unthinkingly.  They
    may understand why they have various kinds of problems later.  Some of them
    will be motivated to get professional help later, instead of making a
    disaster of their lives and their own parenthood.

    It would be very nice if communities would set high standards for parenting
    and refuse to tolerate abuse.  But they don't.  Parenting has gone downhill.
    Violent crime is increasing.  If "the people" aren't fixing these problems
    themselves, then we *have* to do something in the schools.  Some parents
    will object to this move because they know they are abusing their children.
    Such objections should obviously be viewed with suspicion and strongly
    resisted on principle.

    But parenting always was a pretty haphazard business throughout history.
    What *is* unfortunate is that many people may resist parenting
    education, not because they are abusing children, but because it exposes
    some shortcomings in the way they themselves were raised.  The temptation to
    defend one's own parents is very strong.  It would be disastrous if this
    kind of resistance prevented children from getting an education that is
    desperately needed today, in the interests of everybody.

    Message: 76215
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: TOPIC POLICE!
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 05:29:23

    Hey Sysop or Sysop Jr.! Mr. Mann just insulted my intelligence! Isn't that
    against the rules! 365 days in the Zone! (Or at least an Apollogy!)

    Message: 76216
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 05:39:36

    Once again, you put the cart before the horse and advocate the pound of cure
    instead of the ounce of prevention. The causes of child abuse are many, and
    they are known. The most prevalent one is ignorance born out of abused
    childhoods. If beatings and other forms of cruelty are the only things a
    child knows, case history after case history indicates that the abused child
    will become the abusive parent. This is a cycle that has been proven time
    and time again.
     How does the abusive parent get the opportunity to "turn over a new leaf"?
    Only AFTER he or she has been caught causing unbelievable suffering in yet
    another child! So, according to you, the preferred way of dealing with the
    problem is to ostracize the abuser from society. Again, AFTER the fact!
     Education is the foundation of the nation! If the "three Rs" were all that
    were taught in our schools, we wold be among all nations the poorest,
    intellectually. In the case of child abuse, education is still the best
    preventative. Why allow the cycle to continue, when it can be broken once
    and for all?

    Message: 76217
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/last 6
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 05:50:54

     THank you, Gordon, for expressing my thoughts with such clarity.
     Admittedly, the extremes in child abuse that I mentioned are in a minority,
    but they do indeed happen. If education aimed at breaking this vicious cycle
    can prevent even one more such case, it would be worthwhile.
     God bless you and yours.

    Message: 76218
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/Judgment
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 07:41:23

    And I am sure you will remind God of Serrano's alleged sins.

    Message: 76219
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul Savage
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 07:42:49

    Read the 11th commandment, sap.

    Message: 76220
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul's Fine Whines
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:14:44

    > Hey Sysop or Sysop Jr.! Mr. Mann just insulted my intelligence!
    > Isn't that against the rules! 365 days in the Zone! (Or at
    > least an Apollogy!)

            It would be helpful to the discussion if both of you were to try and
    make positive statements.
            Understand, Roger?

    Message: 76221
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl's 99-44/100!
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:15:25

    > "To the pure, all things are pure.  But to those who are
    > corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure.  In fact, both
    > their minds and consciences are corrupted.  They claim to know
    > God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS they DENY HIM.  They are detestable,
    > disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." [Titus 1:15-16]

    Interesting how you never seem to find ANYthing pure -- except those few
    things you decide are pure.

    Message: 76222
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Apollo Grant $
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 08:40:09

    During 1990, I was fortunate enough to be Apollo's 150,000th caller.  As a
    result of that serendipitous achievement, I was awarded special Blue $tatus.
     That's lifetime $tatus with no renewal fees, ever.  In my case that's
    proven so far to be a value of nearly $12.00!

    I really do enjoy Apollo.  I log onto several BBSes each week, plus BIX and
    Compu$erve (my monthly CI$ bill is usually around $50).  Apollo is the only
    one of these I try to log onto each and every day.  It's well worth $12 a
    year and I'd like to continue to provide that small bit of financial
    support.

    So, what Cliff and I worked out is the Bill Burkett Apollo Foundation.
    Using my Blue $tatus, I provide a grant each year of one year's regular
    $tatus to an active, participating, non-$tatus user of Apollo.  I, alone,
    choose who receives this grant each year.

    There are only three restrictions on this grant:

         (1)  The grantee must log onto Apollo regularly.

         (2)  The grantee must complete all procedures normally
              required of $tatus applicants, including (if he or she
              normally logs on with a handle) his or her true
              identity.

         (3)  Messages posted by the grantee in the non-Cosmos
              areas of Apollo must meet general standards of civil
              discourse.  Generally speaking, this means merely
              conforming to the [R]ules.  I am the sole judge of any
              violations of this standard, although the SysOps, may
              impose any other sanctions they feel are needed
              against the grantee.

    If either of these conditions is violated, $tatus will, at my sole
    discretion, be withdrawn and another non-$tatus user of the system will
    receive the remainder of that year's grant.  In any case, a new grantee will
    be announced each year on Apollo's birthday.

    My hope in offering this grant is that it will get others "hooked" on Apollo
    and, in some small way, help increase the subscribing membership.

    The second grantee will be announced on Apollo's upcoming birthday, July 31,
    1991.

    Message: 76225
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 09:41:57

    I guess you didn't hear me point out that the state DOES sell vehicle
    registration information.

    Message: 76226
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 10:44:34

    Very nice posts Gordon, but for the most part, I do not agree with you
    anymore than I do Pauley! I do agree that education is the answer, but only
    a small time spent on it while in school such as they now have for health
    for example - NOT a whole term on how to be a parent!! No one can tell
    anyone else how to be a parent and that includes abuse.
    Your posts come across like written by a psychiatrist and that's fine - all
    would apply if you were talking to an individual, not a group of prospective
    parents that aren't dry behind the ears yet!
    I think education through the medias - such as they do drugs - wearing seat
    belts - drinking - drinking and driving etc. etc. Warnings to the
    prospective parents - to show them even the best of them can and will abuse
    their children. At least enough education that when they are parents, just
    maybe they will see themselves abusing their children and stop it!

    While we are here, maybe you can answer a couple of questions that Pauley
    didn't answer - or refused to ....
    1. What is a good parent?
    2. What is an outstanding parent?
    3. What EXACTLY would you teach the prospective parents on parenting?

    You say approx. 10 % are abusive parents. You would be willing to inflict
    mandatory education on the other 90%?? To me that doesn't make any sense -
    especially in this day and age when the majority seems to be ruling over the
    majority! We don't need any more of it. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76227
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley & Gordon
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 10:46:32

    It is time to put this subject to rest. It is obvious not any of us is going
    to change the other's mind. No use beating (abusing. ha) the subject to
    death er?! At least we can start winding it down. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 76229
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Positive/Paul
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 13:02:50

    Positive statements... OK, I'll try. (It goes against my nature)

    Message: 76230
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 17:50:40

      It was in Texas that the Farmers Alliance movement began.
    It was in the South that the crop-lien system was most
    brutal.  By this system the farmer would get the things he
    needed from the merchant: the use of the cotton gin at
    harvest time, whatever supplies were necessary.  He didn't
    have money to pay, so the merchant would get a lien--a
    mortgage on his crop--on which the farmer might pay 25
    percent interest.  Goodwyn says "the crop lien system became
    for millions of Southerners, white and black, little more
    than a modified form of slavery."  The man with the ledger
    became to the farmer "the furnishing man," to black
    farmers simply "the Man."  The farmer would owe more money
    every year until finally his farm was taken away and he
    became a tenant.
      Goodwyn gives two personal histories to illustrate this.
    A white farmer in South Carolina, between 1887 and 1895,
    bought goods and services from the furnishing merchant for
    $2,681.02 but was able to pay only $687.32, and finally he
    had to give his land to the merchant.  A black farmer named
    Matt Brown, in Black Hawk, Mississippi, between 1884 and
    1901, bought his supplies from the Jones store, kept falling
    further and further behind, and in 1905 the last entry in
    the merchant's ledger is for a coffin and burial supplies.
      How many rebellions took place against this system we
    don't know.  In Delhi, Louisiana, in 1889, a gathering of
    small farmers rode into town and demolished the stores of
    merchants "to cancel their indebtedness," they said.
      In the height of the 1877 Depression, a group of white
    farmers gathered together on a farm in Texas and formed the
    first "Farmers Alliance."  In a few years, it was across the
    state.  By 1882, there were 120 suballiances in twelve
    counties.  By 1886, 100,000 farmers had joined in two
    thousand suballiances.  They began to offer alternatives to
    the old system: join the Alliance and form cooperatives; buy
    things together and get lower prices.  They began putting
    their cotton together and selling it cooperatively--they
    called it "bulking."
      In some states a Grange movement developed; it managed to
    get laws passed to help farmers.  But the Grange, as one of
    its newspapers put it, "is essentially conservative and
    furnishes a stable, well-organized, rational and orderly
    opposition to encroachments upon the liberties of the
    people, in contrast to the lawless, desperate attempts of
    communism."  It was a time of crisis, and the Grange was
    doing too little.  It lost members, while the Farmers
    Alliance kept growing.
      From the beginning, the Farmers Alliance showed sympathy
    with the labor movement.  When Knights of Labor men went on
    strike against a steamship line in Galveston, Texas, one of
    the radical leaders of the Texas Alliance, William Lamb,
    spoke for many (but not all) Alliance members when he said
    in an open letter to Alliance people: "Knowing that the day
    is not far distant when the Farmers Alliance will have to
    use Boycott on manufacturers in order to get goods direct,
    we think it is a good time to help the Knights of Labor...."
    Goodwyn says: "Alliance radicalism--Populism--began with
    this letter."
      The Texas Alliance president opposed joining the boycott,
    but a group of Alliance people in Texas passed a resolution:
           Whereas we see the unjust encroachments that the
         capitalists are making upon all the different
         departments of labor ... we extend to the Knights of
         Labor our hearty sympathy in their manly struggle
         against monopolistic oppression and ... we propose to
         stand by the Knights.

    Message: 76233
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/Religion
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:14:15

    Well, it is obvious that you *DON'T* read the Religion section of the
    Republic, because it doesn't come "every single Sunday".  Pick another day
    of the week (you now have a one-in-six chance of making your point).

    Yes, I am talking about Kim Sue Lia Perkes, religion editor of the Republic,
     I have no idea of whom you are speaking.

    How *is* one to choose a church except by the friendliness of the
    parishioners and the quality of the baked goods?

    Message: 76234
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Urine
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:15:13

    Ummm, lessee, did God create urine?  Or was it SATAN?

    Is God proud of her creations?

    Message: 76235
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/teaching
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:18:27

    "...can be taught authoritatively that" their parents are wrong.  Hoo, boy,
    you're swinging at a hornet's nest with that one.

    Message: 76236
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:45:18

    Re:  and that people who have pulse phones are actually costing those who
    have touch-tone phones more than just the extra monthly cost

    I heard that one can pay a one-time fee for touch-tone service and not have
    to continue paying every month.  Is that true?

    Message: 76237
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peaches
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:48:05

    Re:  he thought all that stuff woman's work and beneath him as a man

    I don't get it?  What's wrong with that?

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 76238
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:58:05

    Re:  Kim Sue Lia Perkes is one of the few *good* things about that paper!

    The paper might as well appoint Rod Williams in her place.

    Well, almost.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 76239
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 19:59:55

    Re:  You wouldn't believe the mail I have gotten from Biddulph and Edward
    Oldsmobile since I bought a used Olds, anad I didn't buy it from either of
    them!

    So that's how Larry Miller got my address?

    Message: 76240
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 20:01:42

    Re:  I met her and she gave me a hug.  She is the best religion editor the
    Republic has, to my knowledge, ever had.

    Hey!  Didn't I call it right??

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 76241
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Billy
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 20:06:32

    Re:  During 1990, I was fortunate enough to be Apollo's 150,000th caller. As
    a result of that serendipitous achievement, I was awarded special Blue
    $tatus.  That's lifetime $tatus with no renewal fees, ever.

    Why does this post keep popping up over and over?

    Message: 76242
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 20:08:46

    Re:  How *is* one to choose a church except by the friendliness of the
    parishioners and the quality of the baked goods?

    The proof is in the pudding!

    Message: 76243
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: touch tone rates
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 21:45:52

    Felix, I don't know about a "one-time" fee to prevent monthly touch-tone(tm)
    service charge.  If there is such a thing, either it is well hidden or I
    managed to miss the offer.

    What happens if I move and get  new phone number?  Would the charge be the
    equivalent of a few months' fees or a couple of years of fees?

    Message: 76244
    Author: $ Paul Carelli
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 22:35:52

      I've been over this bible twice now and I can not seem to find the part
    about the crucifix being something held sacred by God.  Are you getting
    priviledged information?

    Message: 76245
    Author: $ Paul Carelli
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul Savage
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 22:49:49

      I was not trying to infringe upon you right of expression.  I was merely
    trying to find out whether or not you knew the motives behind the artists
    creation.   For me if he is simply trying to start a commotion over the
    freedom of expression issue that's fine but rather common (e.g. flagburners,
    nude dancers...).  On the other hand, if he is trying to convey another
    message (like possibly his anger at the crucixion of Jesus, his dislike of
    symbolism, something he might share with the big G himself, or some other
    such thing) then his work would be at least more unique.  Of course I have
    given the artist the benefit of the doubt here, but that you seem to have
    not was what provoked my original question.  Does anyone know if the artist
    ever gave his reason for the work?   Does anyone care?

    Message: 76246
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 23:27:01

    I wouldn't give kids "one whole term" on being a parent.  I'd embed it into
    the curriculum in much smaller doses over a period of time, like Social
    Studies.  So that they didn't miss the message.  After all, it IS "social
    studies"!  And of course you can't talk to kids using abstruse psychological
    terms.  But you can talk to them in language they can understand, and still
    tell them the same thing.

    That 10% figure is a bare minimum.  I'd bet more on 25% at least for
    different kinds of abuse combined, including emotional.  And even where
    "abuse" is not the issue, I'm sure that most of the other 75% or whatever
    could benefit in *some* way to make better relationships with their kids.

    An outstanding parent will raise a kid to allow him to make the maximum
    possible use of his potential.  But the odd thing is that nobody will ever
    know if it's achieved or not.  You can only say "I've done my level best."
    It's a goal to strive for; but not one to worry about.  A "good-enough"
    parent will succeed in raising well-adjusted kids who, like everyone else,
    aren't perfect but who can contribute to the world and live reasonably
    happy, satisfying lives themselves -- instead of staggering from one
    disaster to another as many do.  Barring some innate flaw in the kid, of
    course.

    What would I teach?  Much of it's implied in my posts.  I suppose I could
    organize it and propose a formal agenda.  But that will take longer.

    Message: 76247
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/sun tea
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 23:27:53

    Thanks for the info about "sun tea".  Have to try this some time.

    It's obvious why I've never heard of it before.  Phoenix has the ideal
    climate for boiling things in bottles just by standing them in the sun.  But
    I'd hate to try it in England...

    Message: 76248
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Electromotive force?
    Date: 07/01/91  Time: 23:29:25

    People who are into computers will be familiar with the little lightning-
    flash symbol used to represent a communications link between two systems.
    Others may have noticed that that same symbol replaces the slash in the logo
    of the group "AC/DC".  But what is the symbol *called*?

    The following is from a discussion of alleged Satanism in heavy-metal bands:

         Some vocal Pentecostals and other critics claim that the name of the...
         heavy-metal group, AC/DC, was not inspired by the two types of
         electrical current, alternating and direct, nor by use of the letters
         in common slang as a term for bisexuality.  They insist the letters are
         really an acronym for "Anti-Christ, Devil's Child," or, "After Christ,
         the Devil Comes."  These are claims which those in the music business
         scoff at as absurd.

         Defenders of the band point out that heavy metal is played with loud
         electrical sound, so the true meaning of AC/DC as the group's name is
         obvious.  It is used as an electrical term.  The band's logo even
         includes an electrical volt.

    Until I read that, I thought I knew what "volts" were.  I thought you got
    them by multiplying ohms and amperes.  But now we know what a volt *looks*
    like, as well...

    Message: 76249
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: exist
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:20:31

    Something first has to exist.

    Message: 76250
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Abuse/child
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:28:27

    I was abused somewhat but I would imagine that all of us were at sometime or
    other as a child.  I was never kicked in the head or threatened with eternal
    hell as a child but my Father had his old U.S. Marine belt in a handy place.

    It is sometimes difficult for an abused mother or father not to abuse their
    children.  Often parents were badly abused when they were children and this
    affected their entire life.  Many parents are being abused now by their
    employer or another reason.

    It is very difficult to keep in touch with complete sanity while residing in
    a fairly insane world.

    Insanities take form in many different ways.  Religion is a type of insanity
    and so is drinking alcohol.  It sometimes come down to, "take away the pain,
    the pain."

                                            Rod

    Message: 76251
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Abuse II
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:37:27

    The amount of people (including children) abuse will go down in direct
    proportion to the state of a nation.  This nation is in limbo, so to speak.
    It is the same tired crap decade after decade, the rich buying and selling
    the working class, the working class being taken advantage of.

    Monopolistic Capitalism serves the few over the sweat of the many.  There
    are people who can enjoy perpetual spring on this planet just by jetting
    from villa to villa.  The roots of the wealth of this nation are founded in
    Robber Barons.

                                            Rod

    Message: 76252
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Urine
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:39:30

    Satan created urine and drugs.  God created alcohol.

    Message: 76253
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix/R&G
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:41:43

    I'd like to be the religion editor of the Republic.  I even asked to do a
    guest column.  But I'd get Daryl's help in writing it.

    Message: 76254
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carelli/crucifix
    Date: 07/02/91  Time: 01:44:22

    Only if the crucifix glows in the dark, is it sacred.
                                    Paul: v666

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