### Apollo BBS Archive - June 17 - 19, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6606
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 11:38:25

    no matter where you are, there you go.

    Message: 6607
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last.last.last...
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 13:44:35

    I was here, where were you?

    Message: 6608
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: The Meeting
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 01:14:17

    SURVEILLANCE REPORT       COUNTER INSURGENCY UNIT       June 16, 1990
       As part of an ongoing investigation, the unit was mobilized to
    keep tabs on a meeting of potential revolutionaries at a North
    Phoenix home. Fixed and mobile vantage points were set up to survey
    and record the gathering from all angles, and SWAT teams were
    infiltrated to within a few yards of the site on all sides.
        At approximately 19:30 hours, the target group's members began to
    enter our well hidden containment perimeter around the meeting place.
    They arrived singly and in small groups of no more than two or three
    (a standard procedure for these rightfully paranoid, underground
    organizations). None of them appeared to be armed, which dissuaded us
    from trying to arrest them on weapons charges before they could join
    forces.
       The attendees seemed to be a group of specialists representing the
    interests of a much larger network. Identified among them were
    operatives in weapons, ammunition, espionage, communications,
    computers, security measures, and special machinery. As would be
    expected on the money raising side of such a gang, there were those
    suspected of ties to drugs and pornography as well.

       A video presentation which was shown during the event encapsulated
    the groups activities over the past several years into a sort of
    State-Of-The-Gang message. Training sessions on firearms and
    rocket-propelled weapons comprised much of the tape. Detailed plans
    to repeatedly bomb numerous I.R.S. installations, and launch a
    pre-emptive strike against law enforcement units attached to the
    Governor's office were also featured. Previously unknown links
    between certain gang members and international traffic in arms and
    hostages were revealed. One member boasted of plans to overthrow the
    government of the United States on behalf of communism, while some
    discussed their involvement in drugs, money laundering, and the most
    depraved of adult films. An abortive assault on the State Capitol
    with some kind of giant, ground-launched missile (which apparently
    did not fire) was documented.
        Discussions recorded during the meet detailed plans to harass a
    certain chain of drug stores (presumable for some type of protection
    money in cash or drugs). When many of the attendees had already left,
    at about 00:30 hours on the morning of June 17, it was decided that
    action should be taken to capture the remaining gang members.

       The commander decided to make one final sweep in front of the
    house disguised as a pizza delivery man, to access the defensive
    posture of the gang at that point, and make a final decision on
    assaulting the house. As the commander completed the sweep and pulled
    up in front of a house down the street, where our field SWAT
    headquarters was situated, one of the gang members strode right over
    to him and challenged him. This man had defiance of the law written
    all over him, and the way he calmly went after the commander right
    there in the street took us all aback.
       Although he was obviously no stranger to rough situations, his
    cool in the presence of our houseful of guns was uncanny. He asked
    the commander if he had any 'extra pizzas' for him. The way he coyly
    let us know that he knew we weren't dealing in pizzas and didn't care
    that we knew it was unsettling. When he went back to the gang's
    meeting site, we decided that it was too risky to try to apprehend
    them now that we had obviously lost the element of surprise. The way
    he strolled casually along the street it looked as though he felt
    that the gang had enough firepower trained on us to back him up if
    anything went wrong. It just wasn't worth the chance of unleashing
    that kind of a firefight there in a residential neighborhood.

    Message: 6611
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 6604
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 17:24:22

    I sent one of my simulacra along.  Didn't it show up?

    Message: 6612
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: Dean's report
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 17:29:18

    A classic in and of itself!

    Message: 6613
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Classic story
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:24:50

            Thanks for the time, Sysop!  That was great! I'd really be provoked
    if time ran out in the middle of it.
            Thanks again--till next time    --John C.--

    Message: 6614
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:34:21

    You almost have me believing it.  Hmmmmm.

    Message: 6615
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:35:40

    By the way, Jeff, I carefully read the Revco letter messages and thought
    they were classics.  I even wrote one in my buffer but zapped it in error.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 3927
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Jokes & Ha Ha's
    Subject: alkjhf
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 09:20:51

    Ya know what's a drag about being an athiest?
    Not having anyone to talk to during sex!

    Message: 3928
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Jokes & Ha Ha's
    Subject: Sorority girls
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 09:22:59

    What do you call 100 sorority girls sun-bathing on a beach in Cuba?

    Bay of pigs.

    What is a sorority girl's mating call?

    "I'm sooo drunk.  I'm sooooooooo drunk!"

    What's the difference between a sorority girl and a toilet?

    After you use a toilet it doesn't follow you around for three days.

    How many sorority girls does it take to change a light blub?

    1.  Two;  one to hold the Diet Pepsi, and one to call Daaaaaddy.
    2.  7; one to change it and six to go out and buy Tab
    3.  65; one to do it and 64 to sing and clap
    4.  One; she holds on to it and the world revolves around her.
    5.  Six; one to screw it in and five to make T-shirts
    6.  Ten; nine to stand around and scratch their heads and one to get her
    boyfriend to do it.

    How many feminists does it take?   "That's not funny"

    What's the difference between a prostitute, nymphomaniac, and a sorority
    girl?
    A prostitute says "Are you done yet?", a nympho says "You're done already?"
    and a sorority girl says
    "Beige...I think I'll paint the ceiling beige."

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 66670
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod / 666666
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 11:54:44

    It just *had* to be you.

    Message: 66671
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: APOLLO LOGS
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 11:57:07

    Over the last several years I have noticed there are some people
    whom actually save some of this stuff onto disks...
    I wonder how many of the last 8 years can be retrieved ?
    How many of you are storing these messages and for how long?

    Message: 66672
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff on Annexed
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 12:03:16

    Well, that means no shooting within City Limits.
    You're right too, the City has no buisniess annexing such a large
    area.
    I think perhaps it was our last mayor who wanted to be able to
    say that he was the mayor of a 20 Million acre City (or whatever the
    acreage comes out to be..)

    That means we will need to find a place out of the way again.
    I figure they also did that as a gun control measure. Annex Arizona!

    Message: 66673
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Apollo B-Day
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 12:43:20

            With the Apollo Birthday only a little over a month away, I got out
    old 'Tom R. Slone'  (the old TRS-80) and fired him up.  It worked!!!!
    The last active disks are from the 1987 birthday party.  For those of you
    who might be interested in seeing old Tom R. Slone and what BBSing was like
    back in the early 80's...it will be on line for one day at the end of July.
    Stay tuned for the exact day, time and phone number for this event.

            It will also be on line here at my place when we hold the Apollo
    B-Day party. (providing there is enough interest)  See the Old, and see the
    NEW at one place.  The TRS-80 only used 3 floppy drives, there was no HARD
    drive in them days for BBSing...too much $$$$.00.

            See some VERY old posts by users still here, and some that are
    gone...  Sniff(tm)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66674
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John on suicide
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 13:32:44

    I'm afraid I don't agree with you that a person shouldn't be allowed to
    commit suicide - you said "life is precious and can't be terminated by
    anyone"! How precious is a life when the person is suffering and has no hope
    for a cure? Or a person with a incurable mental disorder or Alzimer's
    disease when they know what their going to end up like? The Japanese
    incorporate suicide into their society and I cannot see where that is so bad
    for their country. Of course, they don't go jumping off freeways into
    traffic or jump out of high rises onto people below or cut their wrists and
    bleed all over everything for other's to clean up. I think the individual
    has a right to judge for themselve whether thay want to end their life or
    not. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66675
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roddy - your '66666'
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 13:42:15

    Hey baby! You want three more? Their embedded in my hair! *Heh
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66676
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Mike on '6's'
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 13:43:06

    Would it really be appropriate for anyone else to get them? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66677
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog/lies
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 15:06:45

    Does a sleeping dog lie ?

    Message: 66678
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: War!
    Subject: Annexations
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 15:48:57

    Well, if I can find out whether or not my favorite spot is SHOT, by Peoria.
    I can give you the location for the next GT.

    Message: 66679
    Author: Carla Ackley
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Maps
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 16:07:10

     If you are looking for a new map- try the Wide World of Maps on Indian
    School. They've got just about every map you can think about, and some you
    dont know about also.

    Message: 66680
    Author: Carla Ackley
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Suicide
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 16:10:48

     I noticed that you were talking about Suicide. I dont think it should be
    illegal. Its up to the person what they want to do with their life.
    Of course they should seek counselling first- that might be able to help
    prevent them from doing harm to themselves.
     I've got a best friend that is Japanese- her mother has just gotten a
    divorce from my friends father. Well, her mother keeps wanting to commit
    hari-kari. My friend has to keep trying to talk her out of it. Its so
    ingrained in her that her life is worthless without being married and that
    she should kill herself.

    Message: 66681
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sherican/Flag
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 19:08:14

    One of the things the flag originally stood for was a respect for education
    and a keen appreciation of the language. Did you miss the spelling,
    punctuation, and grammar while growing up?  If I am able to decipher through
    the misspellings, incongruities and grammatical errors of your message, I
    deduce that you are saying that those who honor that banner have "thrown
    away their freedom" through ignorance of what the flag symbolizes. Perhaps I
    count as one of the ignoramuses whom you vilify, but I recall that the red
    of the flag symbolizes the blood of brave men who died to protect your right
    to be a perfect elbow.
            Or some other anatomical term.
            ---John C.---

    Message: 66682
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alan H/ Ollie N.
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 19:15:23

            Alan, I don't remember my post well enough to defend what I might
    have said, so perhaps I am guilty as charged. I don't pretend that North was
    an angel who did no wrong.  I do think that he had a very tough job, he did
    it as well as he could (and as well as could be expected of a light colonel
    of the USMC whose previous duties were more related to combat.) He made a
    bunch of very serious mistakes, but I appreciate his intentions while I
    bemoan his incompetencies. And, I suspect that if he had succeeded in what
    he attempted, Reagan would be more of a hero and Ollie would be at least a
    one-star general.   --John C.--

    Message: 66683
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/suicide
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 19:21:30

            No, human life must be separate, sacred. If all life is equal and
    the human the same as the ant, then I must state that stepping on the ant is
    the equivalent of murdering my neighbor.  OR, murdering my neighbor is no
    more heinous a crime than stepping on the ant at the picnic. My head may be
    in error, but it is not in the clouds, nor in a fairly tale. The history of
    those who have thought of this topic emphasizes that "murder" is the
    unwarranted taking of another human life. Murder doesn't apply to dogs,
    cats, apes, or cows.      --John C.--

    Message: 66684
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/suicide
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 19:28:20

            Yes, it is very appealing to be able to say, "I'll stop the pain,
    I'll end it all." And I agree with the sentiments.  What we're talking about
    here is the rightness or wrongness of it. Your position is only tenable if
    you consent that there is no other claim or connection to your life from the
    rest of humanity.  If "no man is an island" and we all belong to a large
    body of humanity, then humanity has a claim on thaqt life, as well. What I
    state is a verysimplified expression of an exptreme position, but the
    argument is a true and a valid one.     --John C.--

    Message: 66685
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pat/KWNA
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 20:42:56

    I forgot about the "A-" prefix. However, I do seem to recall a TV or radio
    station in Canada with the call letters of CITY.

    Daryl
    (Isa 40:31)

    Message: 66686
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C. / 66647
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 21:01:34

       I agree that there should have been a few more options in that last
    ote. However, given the limitations, I voted as best as I felt I could.

       The flag is a very important symbol of our country. It is loved by us,
    honored by our allies, despised by our enemies. It is indeed a proud symbol.

       But it is not a sacred object. The pattern of stars and stripes was not
    handed down to us from God's sewing machine. Furthermore, the burning of the
    flag by one or two skewed individuals is not going to change America.

       I believe that the Bible is God's Holy Scripture. However, there are
    those out there who do not share my view. Some go as far as to despise it.
    If they want to burn it, that's their right. Burning the Bible isn't going
    to eliminate God, nor is it going to eliminate the Bible (especially when
    you figure there are several hundred billion copies in print). Now, if I see
    someone out in public, burning and stomping on the Bible and shouting
    blasphemous remarks, I'm not going to say that I'm going to walk on by
    without comment. Like you said, it's like the photo of your mother, it is
    something that you hold as very precious. But the action does not endanger
    the existence of God; all it does is satisfy the childish vengeance of an
    unstable individual. So, I don't think there should be a law against it.

       I share the same opinion of the flag. Just because some yutz in Boise
    decides to burn it, it doesn't affect my freedoms.

    Message: 66687
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff / Revco
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 21:04:27

    HAH!

    (chuckle chuckle....)

    Daryl
    (Php 2:6-11)

    Message: 66688
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / Equality
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 21:08:51

    Next time you step on an ant, I hope you will do the proper thing and kill
    yourself in remorse. It's only fair; you took a life, your life should be
    taken.

    Furmermorr, I dink bat bou poud... Wait, I think I can talk a little better
    with my tongue out of my cheek.

    Daryl
    (Ro 15:5-6)

    Message: 66689
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Movie GT
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 22:40:24

      Thanks to all who attended. Speaking for myself, my wife, and my oldest
    daughter, we had a great time. (The younger daughter was away, lest you
    assume that she was there and did not share our opinion of the event.)
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66690
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/equality
    Date: 06/17/90  Time: 22:56:29

       If I met an ant or a dog that could conceive of and explain the concept
    of creating rights by agreeing to respect them in others in order to secure
    them for one's self, I would agree that that creature's life should be
    considered to have a value similar to human life. In the absence of such
    phenomenon, I view your argument as being about as baseless as one in favor
    of granting Human rights to plants or stones. Humane treatment for lower
    forms of life is one thing, but denying the degrees of value between human
    life and that of an insect is a refusal to make a value judgement where one
    is called for. Some other thinking species might lump all earthly life
    together in that fashion, but logic and self preservation demand that we
    humans see things more clearly than that.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66691
    Author: $ Pat Stoddard
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/CITY
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 00:24:37

    Since Canada is allocated the call sign prefix blocks beginning from CF to
    CK, CITY would be a legitimate call sign.  Is it on FM or AM, if you know?
    As far as the World Radio TV Handbook (1990) shows for the AM stations, it
    isn't there.

    -Pat

    Message: 66692
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pat / Last
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 07:27:02

    I don't know for sure. The last time that I saw it was around 1980-82. It
    was listed regularly in SRDS.

    Message: 66693
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: John on suicide
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 09:32:49

    Re: "What we're talking about here is the rightness or wrongness of it."

    Who is to judge the rightness or wrongness of it but the individual? A
    Christian might not do it because it goes against what his religious beliefs
    are - but what of the athiest that has no such beliefs? What of those that
    believe they have no connection with humanity? What if they do believe that
    they are 'an island'? All of humanity can't judge one individial in my
    opinion when they want to do such a thing. Nor can anyone sit in judgement
    of a person that has a terrible terminal illness that wants to pull the plug
    on himself. How can anyone know what that person is suffering if he hasn't
    had the same pain?
    I saw my mother die most horriably, connected to machines prolonging her
    life. In those days, there was no question of just pulling the plug out - it
    stayed because the doctors said so. She probably could have lived at least
    for a short time without them, but she certainly would have opted for that
    little 'killing machine' that's in the news right now if given a choice. He
    only choice, PERIOD, was to go through the final days of her life in total
    anguish. WHY? Is this humane? Even sane to do this to another human being?
    If no man is an island, then why can't we help each other out in this thing
    instead of using individualistic morals? We all have to die someday - why
    can't it be made easier? We do it to our dogs and other pets you know. Would
    you want your loved one suffering any more than you would your pet?
    Remember, most people in this state would not choose the killing machine
    (suicide)! It just should be up to them is all. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66694
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Suicide
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 09:47:15

    Lets take a little liberty here with a hyperthetical story .....
    Mary Smith is dying of terminal cancer and has about two days to live. She
    is in terrible pain that the morphene will hardly touch. Lets say the
    'killing machine' is a realty and she chooses it! She makes the decision it
    will be used on Mar. 2, at 7:30PM! Her family gathers around the bedside
    (preferably her own bed at home) and they have a little party in her honor -
    telling her how wonderful it was having her in their lives, not waiting
    until her funeral because then she can't hear it then! Telling her how much
    she is loved and how much she will be missed. She can kiss each of her loved
    ones goodby - eat her last meal if possible, and then making peace with God
    if she has Him in her life, and then push the button, going very peacefully
    of her own free will! The family could toast her at her time of passing. her
    coffin would be waiting - one she has choose, she would already be dressed
    in what she wanted to wear at her own funeral.
    In my opinion, this would certainly be most humane and loving. I see nothing
    ugly in it at all. No one there would feel guilt because mom choose for
    herself. It could be beautiful - not the ugliness of machines prolonging
    pain and suffering. Not the ugliless of someone wasting away day by day,
    already a corpse before they die - the struggling fight when the time does
    come against the machines because they want to breathe their last and the
    machines have other ideas. Think on this. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66695
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Flag Desecration
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 11:24:55

    How can one desecrate something that is not sacred?  If we were to make the
    flag sacred by law, and then outlaw its desecration, are we not then
    establishing a "Religion of the Flag"?  This would be in violation of the
    establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution.

    Oh well, anything for a political edge.

    Michael "I'm the NRA" Kielsky

    Message: 66696
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Burn Flags
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 12:47:11

    Next they'll pass a law that says you can't desecrate (sp) anything
    that is a symbol of the United States.
    Yep. We're in **DEEP** Kempshi...

    Message: 66697
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann/dying
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 13:34:02

    I was touched by your story and hypothetical. The problem we have is that
    we have become slaves to the machines we have invented, rather than masters
    of them. We have invented a technology that DOES save lives, but can and
    does prolong the lives of the terminally ill in an unmerciful and cruel
    manner. We have a modern dilemma. Perhaps part of the answer is the freedom
    to choose to refuse treatment when their is the possibility of being
    tortured in the manner you have so eloquently described.

    Message: 66698
    Author: $ Clint Phillips
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Flag/suicide
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 20:29:43

     Well,as a young person and a registered voter of the U.S.(18). First I'll
     confront the flag burning issue.An ammendment shouldn't be created to make
    the burning of the flag illegal for the sole reason that the Government can
    gain to much power with laws of this nature.  (We wouldn't want to
    make it to hard on ourselves to over throw the Government if and when it is
    neccessary to.) But, if I ever personally witness a person burning the flag
    I would not hesitate to throw blows,as childish as that may seem.
    On to the suicide issue, it is this simple, NO PERSON has the right to take
    a life whether it is there own or someone elses. (n innocent Murderers are
    by no means innocent and should be disposed of.) NO PERSON can predict
    accurately what may happen to them in the future, but in the more obvious
    cases they sould be allowed to die naturally. A small amount of suffering
    is very small in eternity. Therefore murder should not be a replacement for
    it, which has monstrous effects in eternity

    signed - Concerned about ethical values -
                                            in this Great Country-
                                              ***** C. Phillips *****

    Message: 66699
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Flagburning/Darryl
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 21:21:17

            Yes, your argument is good and telling. The problem is that I fall
    into the emotional area too easily with the flag, I guess. I can logically
    and reasonably come to the proper conclusion about the right of anyone to
    express himself. I just wish he wouldn't do it with the flag.  I guess I
    can't be reasonable about it!  I'll have to work on this. --John C.--

    Message: 66700
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/suicide
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 21:37:25

            See? You have just described the area where I draw the line, also,
    and though this is a "grey area," I think I'm justified.  Watch--
            First of all, yes we are discussing the rightness or wrongness of
    it. That's what this discussion is all about; not whether or not you or I
    would use the machine. The question is an objective one: right or wrong?
            Second, though logic tells us it is wrong to commit suicide, logic
    will also defend the position of "no extraordinary means to preserve life."
    The Catholic Church used to have a good sound position on this, but lately
    they've started to waffle. The logic is, if I am in a terminal illness, I
    may demand that the doctor cease all pumps and medicines which will prolong
    my agony. I may demand painkillers to stop the pain (but not enough to kill
    me) and the basic food and water for sustenance. If my cancer or whatever
    then claims me, it is a "natural" death. In other words, pull the plug and
    let me go! But don't give cyanide to push it.
            If this seems like a cheap rationalization, then I've not explained
    it fully.  The argument is sound, and I am leaving a dying will which I
    trust will handle this for me.
            This still does not solve the problem of Alzheimers and some other
    illnesses which drag on for years, but it covers almost all. --John C--

    Message: 66701
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carla
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 21:49:33

    Re:  "Well, her mother keeps wanting to commit hari-kari."

    Only foreigners (non-Japanese) call it "harry karry" which is a
    transliteration of "harakiri" which means "belly cut."  The Japanese call it
    "seppuku."  Seppuku is a very painful method of suicide.  There are many
    better ways.  But, if one is trying to redeem their honor, seppuku is a
    must!

    Message: 66702
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 21:50:43

    Bonnie and I would like to thank you and Bonnie for hosting the GT Saturday
    night.  We had a great time!  The food was delicious, and you did a good job
    on putting all the tapes together.  It must have taken hours of work.  From
    some of the other posts, I gather we left before the "real" fun started.  I
    want to bring our camera to the next GT and take some pictures.  That way I
    can take close up pictures of Rod and ask him stupid questions.  Ha!

    Rod, what was the "lux" rating on that Sony you were using?

    Message: 66703
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/18/90  Time: 21:51:18

    Re:  "Do you always give the correct call sign?"

    Only when you're not listening.  When you're listening, I always give the
    wrong call sign.  I bet you were wondering why Billy was preaching on KZZP.

    Message: 66704
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Kielsky / Desecrat'n
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 00:31:09

    Good point well made.

    Daryl
    (Isa 40:31)

    Message: 66705
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike C. - 66696
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 00:32:50

    Re: Banning desecration of American symbols...

    The disposable diaper is fast becoming a prominent American symbol, but you
    certainly don't see ME hanging one from a flagpole in 110-degree heat! >:-)

    Daryl
    (Ps 130:5-6)

    Message: 66706
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C - Suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 00:54:25

       Your position on suicide is a good one, I feel. If there is no possible
    means of recuperation, and the machine provides no purpose other than to try
    to sustain where my body cannot for no reason other than to prolong pain and
    suffering and increase the medical bills, then disconnect me. If I can
    maintain on my own for however long that may be, that was what was meant to
    be. If I die upon disconnection, again, that was meant to be. I will
    continue to eat and drink for as long as possible, and will not reject
    painkillers.
       I will not, however, mess with the Plan, and take my own life, be it with
    lethal injection, or intentional starvation, or any other means of suicide
    or forced death.
       I am very strong in my religious beliefs. I once tried to put into
    descriptive language what my view on suicide was. Imagine that you are in a
    car as a passenger. The driver knows where he is going, and you have a
    general idea, but you don't know the entire route. Suddenly, you hit a
    detour, and run through some bumpy and dangerous terrain. You know that you
    should trust the driver, but seeing no immediate end to this dangerous
    route, you panic. "I can't handle this," you scream, "and I'm not going to
    take it any more!" You grab the steering wheel out of the driver's hands,
    and spin it frantically, in an attempt to put an end to this ride...forever.
    You send the car off of a cliff, killing you instantly. The driver survives
    without a scratch. You will never know about the smooth road that awaited
    you merely 100 feet ahead.

        As a Christian, I see suicide as forsaking your trust in the Creator. I
    considered suicide quite a few times before knowing Christ, and I look upon
    those then-traumas as mere nothings. Now, I know there is a big difference
    than a suicide that stems from a minor incident in one's life, and the one
    that stems from pain and suffering. And yet, there is no difference, since
    they both deny trust in His will.
        And I know that these are also very big and nice words, seeing as I am
    not in a life-and-death situation at the moment, but I hope and pray that
    if, God forbid, I ever encounter such a situation, that my family and
    friends will help to strengthen my faith, and remind me that all suffering
    is nothing compared to what lies ahead.

        Well, off of my soapbox for another day.

    Daryl
    (Ro 15:5-6)

    Message: 66708
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 05:40:11

     It is now possible to indicate beforehand, in a living will, a preference
    to refuse life support systems in the final stages of a terminal illness.
    This is not really suicide, but a preference for a natural passing.
     To "help one another out" in such a situation, as you suggested, is not
    suicide, but the taking of another's life, i.e. murder. That is another
    matter entirely.
     Speaking as a Christian, (and one with a somewhat low tolerance for pain),
    I would refuse life support in a hopeless situation, preferring to be with
    my Lord as soon as possible. I would not, however, hasten my passing with a
    pill or "suicide machine". At least, I don't think I would, since it is
    probably impossible to determine what any individual would do in such a
    circumstance.

    Message: 66709
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Wacky world of Pat B
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 10:12:52

            Has any one else wondered if Buchanan writes the Ed Anger column in
    the WEEKLY WORLD NEWS?  The rather hysterical right-wing tone is identical
    to what Buchanan writes.

            Here's another example of the yin/yang of Patrick Buchanan, taken
    from THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC, June 19:
    (1)  When the Founding Fathers wrote the Bill of Rights, they meant it to be
    followed EXACTLY as it is worded.  The 10th Ammendment to the Constitution
    that any thing not specificaly designated in the Constitution as being in
    the Federal province is totaly, utterly, off limits.  No exceptions
    whatsoever.
    (2)  When the Founding Fathers wrote the Bill of Rights, they didn't mean it
    to be taken totaly literaly.  The 1st Ammendment to the Constitution says
    "Congress shall make no law," but it doesn't really mean zero laws, it just
    means not a whole lot of laws.  For example, mandatory recitation of
    Christian prayers in public schools is okay.  Or banning something he
    considers offensive -- that doesn't count either.
         He tries to back up (2) with some irrelivent remarks like "...the Ten
    Commandments cannot be posted in a public school,... but flag burning and
    pornography are court-protected activities."  So?  If he couldn't have the
    Ten Commandments in his home, or school kids were being given PENTHOUSE, he
    might have a case.

            It's not often that he trips himself up in the same column -- usualy
    you have to compare two or more to catch him.

            The really ironic thing is that you dispose of a worn out flag by
    burning it.  The only diffence between someone in the VFW retiring a flag
    and a radical burning one on the street is what they are thinking:  The
    VFW guy would be very serious and respectull, while the radical wouldn't.
    In other words, what the desecration ammendment does is outlaw certain
    thoughts.  Isn't that wonderful?  Our first Thoughtcrime law.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 66711
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Clint on suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 11:07:38

    Re: your "a small amount of suffering is very small in eternity"!

    Me - A small amount of suffering CAN be an eternity! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66712
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 11:23:17

    I don't disagree with you whole headily - but logic doesn't play all that
    big part you say in my book. For one thing, if one is suffering so, where is
    the logic? Where did the logic go in Alzimer's? Or someone that can't move a
    little finger? People is these states probably left logic behind ages ago.
    My mother begged to die and I had to face her with logic (lies)! Telling her
    everything would be alright, etc. etc. To be honest, after she did die, I
    felt guilty as hell that I didn't do something even if I ended up in jail
    for it! She suffered 3 long months and what for? No way could she have
    survived - it was too late even if they had a cure. She died from bleeding
    ulcers because of the aspirin she took (24 or more a day for 8 years because
    of arthritis). She also had Staph (sp? infection on her foot that wouldn't
    cure. She died like one would with cancer - a living skeleton - weighing
    about 65 lbs. with tubes plugged in all over the place. She had to be
    strapped down because she kept pulling them out and let me tell you, a
    person with Rhumitoid arthritis that is kept in one position all the time,
    even for a few hours, suffer's the pangs of hell! She had a bed sore the
    size of saucer on her back too that you could actually see her spinal cord.
    She couldn't even take a drink of water much less food. Now all of this that
    happened, which I'll never forget seeing her lie in that bed like that, is
    why I have this opinion about suicide. Before that, I simply thought it a
    sin! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66713
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 11:33:30

    I really liked your post and for the most part agree. But lets suppose that
    it is a sin to commit suicide - doesn't the Bible say it is? Then, God gave
    us free will and through that free will, man was able to save lives with
    modern medicine and that of course includes those machines, operations etc.
    - in other words, prolonging life. This is wonderful! But our life spans are
    getting longer and longer - way beyoud the normal because for instance, say
    a person has a heart attack and lives - he is rushed to emergency and has a
    heart valve operation that prolongs his life for a few years when he
    probably would have normally died. Now this same person gets older and older
    and his body simply fails him. Only the machines are left between him and
    death. Then one day, life ceases to have any quality because this guy is
    sitting in a wheel chair he cannot get the strength up to even manuver, he
    wears a diaper and drools constantly and what little is left of his brain in
    going fast. Now God didn't put this man in that position, man did! So I say
    'man' must have the responsibility to do something about it! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66714
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley/last
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 11:35:47

    I think you hit the nail on the head with the line ... "at least I don't
    think I would, since it is probably impossible to determine what any
    individual would do in such a circumstance"! Good one Pauley.
                       -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I don't think I would either but .........?

    Message: 66715
    Author: $ Clint Phillips
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann/Suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 13:42:17

     I realize what you are saying and it is very well taken. Although you
    are stepping on a very fine line. Let me further explain. I agree with the
    fact that people shouldn't have to suffer UNLESS NEED BE. As in your case
    (story) the suffering would seem completely unnecessary. BUT there are
    options to suicide or murder! If the pain can not be stopped by drugs or
    some other type of medication, there are things such as spinal blocks.
    (Believe me I've had one and you don't feel anything 'let alone move')
    But you can not let them or someone else TAKE their lives. This would be
    closely ressembling shooting animals when they are sick! Humans are not
    animals and need to be given a chance, as small as it may seem!!

     ---I'm just saying there are more options than are being discussed

                                                  C. Phillips

    Message: 66716
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Machinery
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 13:56:19

    I can thank modern medicine for helping my father recover from a heart at-
    tack in 1972. He was a mere 30 seconds away from death, but because of doc-
    tors at VA and Good Samaritan hospitals, he lived until 1989. He wasn't en-
    tirely free from pain or medicine, but he lived the extra 17 years to the
    fullest. He had a second heart attack in April 1989 while he was out visi-
    ting yard sales. It started suddenly, and was over just as quickly. He lost
    consciousness before he died and did not suffer much. If I were in a pos-
    ition where machines were keeping me alive, but there was the possibility
    of recovery, I would hang on and endure it (Romans 5:1-5). But if there
    were no hope for me, and the machines were prolonging the agony, I would
    request that the machinery be turned off.
    (If I were unconscious or brain dead, my wife knows about my wishes in this
    matter.) I would continue as I was when the machinery was on, and would
    not attempt or request anything to hasten my death. If I could eat, I
    would eat. If I was receiving pain medication, I would continue to take it,
    and leave my time of departure in His hands.

    "Be merciful to me, O LORD, for I am in distress; my eyes grow weak with
     sorrow, my sould and my body with grief. My life is consumed with an-
     guish and my years by growning; my strength fails because of my afflic-
     tion, and my bones grow weak...But I trust in you, O LORD; I say, "You
     are my God." My times are in your hands..." (Psalm 31:9-10; 14-15a)

    Message: 66717
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Suicide/Ann
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 14:13:41

    Ann, I'd like to see an actual quote from any of the versions of the Bible
    recognized by one of the main-stream Christian religions concerning the sin
    of taking one's own life.

    To the best of my recollection, it is a sin only in Roman Catholic dogma,
    promulgated by one of the early and therefore most infallible of Popes.

    To the point, I feel about euthanasia and suicide much the way many women
    must feel about abortion.  Since I don't need it right now, I'm ambivalent
    about it.  But I'm sure not going to support anyone or anything that would
    take away my right to do it if I chamge my mind.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 66718
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Back on
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 14:41:00

    Well I made it back on line, and I'm sorry if I missed any post directed
    towards me. It was well worth the wait though, my new computer is an
    excellent piece of machinery. I put it together myself, thats what makes it
    good I guess,(laugh). I have some questions, is the discussion about
    socialized medicine still open or was it closed? If somebody wants to fill
    me in on the outcome I'd be greatful. Well let me go and read a couple of
    hundert more posts.
    THE MAD MAX

    Message: 66719
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JL/New computer
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 16:28:00

    Tell us about your new computer. You say you put it together ? Did you put
    it together with components bought from Computer Shopper or some-such source
    ? I think it would be a fun project to try, and I'd like to hear about your
    experience.

    Message: 66720
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike's Dinner
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 17:10:00

    That would explain the hordes of sniggering Portuguese that have been
    following me over the last few days, their dark glasses contrasting with the
    bright reflective glint of sunlight off of metal, as they picked the bugs
    from their teeth with their six-inch stiletto knives.

    Message: 66721
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cummings on flag
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 17:14:51

    Funny, but I doubt that the rebel forces had that in mind when they rallied
    around the flag.

    Message: 66722
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Flag Amendment
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 19:20:06

    So far 6 users are for an amendment to the Constitution to prevent the
    desecration of the 'Flag' (for whatever reason)

    16 users are against an amendment (for whatever reason)

    And 2 users don't see it as an issue or just don't have a formed opinion as
    of yet.

            At almost 3 to 1 against an amendment, I guess the ote is almost
    over since it is rather decisive or lop-sided.

            Myself... I am AGAINST it as an amendment. I am proud of our Flag
    for the freedoms it represents, but to pass an amendment would seriously
    damage the FIRST amendment in "My OPINION"...  and isn't that one of the
    freedoms for what the Stars and Stripes stand for?  Don't get me wrong, if I
    see someone burning the 'Flag', I will be angry, and sometimes anger is
    needed to get attention.  Attention to a problem that maybe needs to be
    looked at by the PEOPLE!  The freedom to do this should NOT be taken away in
    the form of an Amendment.... as it will be Government suppression.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66723
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Flag Burning
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 20:27:22

    It is used to get attention. Unfortunatly, it seems the burning of the flag
    can be more important than the issue. It is not a statement to be taken
    lightly...

    Message: 66724
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 66715
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 20:28:15

    Spinal blocks? What if the cause of the pain is permanent? Should that
    person be forced to lie there, basically paralyzed, for years?

    Message: 66725
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:04:22

            Ann, my mother died similarly--also arthritic, also I remember the
    bedsore routine.  I also remember the same helpless frustration, and the
    anger when the doctor who did the autopsy thought he had the wrong body--he
    know my mother was 64 years old--the body, he opined, was at least 85! I had
    the same FEELINGS you described. I won't let myself into the trap of "what
    would I do," or"what should I have done," because I don't want to be torn up
    again.
            But if I ask myself to consider, without emotion, what is right and
    what is wrong about this situation, I have to admit that if I were there, it
    would be wrong for me to commit suicide, and wrong for someone to murder me.
            --John C.--

    Message: 66726
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gary/religion
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:08:39

            Were the early popes more infallible than the later ones? Especially
    the ones after 1850?   And I'll have to check, but I really think more
    religions than just the RCs frown on suicide.    --John C.--

    Message: 66727
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Weapons again
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:18:17

            Some dingbat in Florida was apparently provoked when General Motors
    Acceptance Corp repossessed his car, just because he wasn't making the
    payments (short sighted attitude, eh?). So he charged into the office with a
    semi-automatic shoulder weapon and at least one sidearm and killed seven
    people, then committed suicide with the rifle.
            He had several clips of ammo. From the picture I saw of the rifle,
    it appeared to be an M-1 A-1 carbine, very effective short range weapon.
            This incident will cause enough furor to have the liberals and the
    environmentalists frothing at the mouths to take away our weapons.
            Do something, Sysop! Don't let them disarm us!   --John C.--

    Message: 66728
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/saved
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:39:33

    I have about two and a half years of Apollo on my current system and about a
    year and a half on my C-64 disks although I no longer have a C-64.

    Message: 66729
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/ants
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:52:58

    Yes, everytime you step on an ant or even hit a bug with your windshield
    then you are killing a life.  Life's cheap as evidenced by entire galaxies
    going poof and then reclaiming itself into a new system.  Death is not new
    nor is it hard to physically die.

    Fact is, it is probably a lot of fun if you ever think about it.  That is
    why we call them FUNerals.

    Millions (perhaps billions) of life forms die on this planet alone each and
    every day.  Mother Nature does not take sides, she kills us all without pity
    or remorse just as we kill the ant or bug.

    Of course, scientifically speaking, nothing in the universe has ever
    actually died, just changed into something different.  Those laws of physics
    will most likely remain for all eternity.

    In the scheme of things all life is precious yet all life is cheap.  And it
    really does not matter one wit because that's how it is.

    The main reason I am still among the humans on this planet is that
    re-incarnation has a bit of logic to it and I sure don't want to be
    reformatted and come back into this cesspool as a newborn.  Frankly, I'm
    afraid to take my chances, I'm chicken.....well partly, partly cow too.
                                    Rod

    Message: 66730
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 22:59:40

    Would you agree that in some cases a suicide may be good.  For instance, say
    a person is extremely upset, wants to kill their entire family or go and
    bomb a building but instead, kills themself.

    Sure, the person was confused, could no longer cope with a tough society but
    continuing to live a bad life could be worse.  Perhaps the suicidal
    person regularly beat his wife and kids or maybe he was a drug dealer or had
    a bad case of AIDS.

    Wouldn't you agree that there are some justifiable suicides, that it would
    be better for humanity that death occurred?

    Message: 66731
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob/Lux
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 23:06:21

    I forget but the camera was on hi-sensitivity althougt the living room was
    dark but the kitchen was okay.  I gathered enough information to blackmail
    you into submission, I think.

    Message: 66732
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Dean/Stones
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 23:07:09

    My pet stone has rights but it doesn't eat much.

    Message: 66733
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gary/Suicide
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 23:12:23

    You would never be tried for suicide even if it was against the law unless
    you were a complete klutz.  Then they could only go after you for attempted
    suicide and unfortunately that doesn't carry the death penalty.

    Wouldn't it be cool if attempted suicide carried the death penalty?

    Message: 66734
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Flags
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 23:15:59

            *************SPECIAL****************

            $24.95 FOR A BEAUTIFUL AMERICAN FLAG (8' X 12')

            MADE ENTIRELY OF ASBESTOS (in Korea)

            Order Yours Today!!!!!!!!!

    Message: 66735
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James Taranto
    Date: 06/19/90  Time: 23:24:43

    I saw JT on CNN last evening about midnight.  The story was about the Street
    Newspaper and JT was a former managing editor.

    JT said about the founder something to the effect that He Was Either A
    Lunatic or Crazy.

    Well, so next thought that enters my ole gulliver is to tape in on the last
    part of Apollo, the Video....so I fast forward to the very last scene and
    wait and wait......along about 2 A.M. it comes on again so I hit record and
    play on my vcr but there isn't any tape remaining.

    I then quitely turn off the tv and go to sleep.  Tonight, if by some weird
    chance it play again I have a blank tape in my machine.  Good luck.

    By the way, this was the only message I planned to post.    -Rod

    (But some people)

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