### Apollo BBS Archive - July 27, 1991

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    What is your first name:PETER

    What is your last name:PETRISKO

    Hello, Peter Petrisko
    Is your name correct:Yes

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    Caller # 162349 (4 today)
    It is now 07/29/91  02:03:14
    Last on @ 07/27/91  02:49:03
    Last message read was  (77175)
    Message range is (76972-77223)
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    Message: 1737
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Review
    Subject: Rosencrantz&Guilden-
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:53:58

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    Message: 2058
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: songs
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 23:26:21

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    I hardly get on here so sorry I haven't replied.  I think I will go ahead
    and buy the record anyway.  Thanks for the info!
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    Message: 2059
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Engaged
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 23:27:00

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    Message: 2060
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Lasta
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 01:24:12

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    Message: 77176
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/road work
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 05:17:34

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    Message: 77177
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 05:21:33

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    Message: 77178
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porno
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 09:34:59

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    I agree with Peter. Our country's obsession with violence and death is the
    true pornography.
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    Message: 77179
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Jesus
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 09:37:12

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    Message: 77180
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/mags
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 11:17:17

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    You should check out gay men's magazines.
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    Message: 77181
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jesus/marriage
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 11:21:39

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    Message: 77182
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mary Magdalene
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 11:36:45

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    Message: 77183
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Jesus/marriage
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 11:44:18

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    Message: 77184
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad on porn
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:12:30

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    Re: your .... "there is nothing 'uplifting' about it"!

    Oh? I don't know about that! Ha ha. *]]] ANN O. [[[*
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    Message: 77185
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on Roadwork
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:15:01

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    Message: 77186
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Doggy on mags.
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:17:25

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    Message: 77188
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad on porn again
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:30:46

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    Message: 77186
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Doggy on mags.
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:17:25

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    You can see men in 'ALL their glory' in gay's magazines????
                            *]]] ANN O. [[[*
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    Message: 77188
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad on porn again
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:30:46

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    I never understood why some people were so against other people getting
    turned on!!! It isn't nasty - it isn't against our nature, so what's the big
    deal?
                              *]]] ANN O. [[[*
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    Message: 77189
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mary/Thad
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 12:43:03

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    Message: 77190
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rebellion
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 15:10:44

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Ok, so it's been ages since this discussion was going on (and even longer
    since I've been able to log on, due to severe computer difficulties, i.e.,
    not having one), but I must say that I feel that a certain amount of
    rebellion is necessary to keep authority (whether it be a government, a
    family, whatever) in line. An unopposed authority will wander into tyranny,
    a situation which is far worse than the trivial types of rebellion (long
    hair, etc) which were being mentioned. Just because an authority is an
    authority does not necessarily make it correct, a fact which often does not
    seem to occur particularly to those of a religious bent who seem to believe
    that authority in its every manifestation is de facto correct on all
    matters.
    (This, of course, does not address the fact that there is no definite
    rightness or wrongness on most topics, but that's a whole 'nother argument.)
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77191
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cruisers on central
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 15:14:43

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    ? Has anyone sighted any cruising on Central (at least, north Central)
    lately? Speaking as an occasional one time cruiser, Central has looked
    pretty well dead for many, many months now, leading me to believe that
    either A) people aren't cruising as much or B) they picked up and went
    elsewhere.
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    Message: 77192
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: islam/christianity
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 15:23:28

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    Message: 77193
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul/goals
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 15:34:28

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    Message: 77194
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 16:27:41

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Welcome back.
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77195
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Burkett/divide
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 16:28:04

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    Message: 77196
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mary & Jesus
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 16:29:57

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    Message: 77197
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porno
    Date: 07/27/91  Time: 16:32:32

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Peter is correct, porno is Bush and Rambo.  Ever see a picture of a naked
    dog?  Does that turn you on?

    What about a naked pig?  Oink, oink.

    Humans are only ashamed because we have been taught to be.

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    Message: 77198
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:30:10

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    Message: 77199
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (1/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:32:10

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    Message: 77200
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (2/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:33:13

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    Message: 77201
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (3/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:34:15

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    Message: 77202
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (4/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:35:37

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    Message: 77203
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (5/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:36:47

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    Message: 77204
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (6/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:37:42

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    Message: 77205
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (7/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:40:16

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    Message: 77206
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (8/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:41:01

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    Message: 77207
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: odd couples
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:15:29

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Roger Mann and Peter Petrisko. Rather odd couple, to say the least.
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77208
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger Lantern/77179
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:19:02

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    You have slipped further than I ever thought possible with a comment like
    that, Mr. Mann. In the words of the Master Himself: "By thy words thou shalt
    be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Better be a bit
    more careful how you speak, for one day you WILL give an account for every
    idle word you speak.
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    Message: 77209
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/cruising
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:24:19

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    Message: 77210
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi Marlin
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:32:29

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    Message: 77211
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/last 8
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:47:00

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    Message: 77212
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Glory be to Annie!
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 08:00:45

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    And, Ann, as I've told you in the past, you can buy magazines showing men
    in, as you put it, "ALL their glory" at your neighborhood Circle K.
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77213
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on glory
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 08:50:37

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Uhhhh .. I don't think you know what I mean when I say -in all their glory!
    Let me put it this way - not just naked in full view, but full blown in full
    view! Got it? *]]] ANN O. [[[*
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77214
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Full Blown for Ann
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 10:07:45

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Yes, I DO understand.  A specific suggestion awaits you in mail.
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77215
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/Jesus
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:29:01

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    Message: 77216
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Jesus&Mary
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:42:16

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    Message: 77217
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Speaking of members
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 14:13:58

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    I guess we know where Paul Rubens got his nickname, now.
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77218
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul Reubens
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 15:59:10

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    His attorney couldn't figure out why he gave is stage name. Perhaps he was
    looking for an excuse to stop doing the character?
    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77219
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Pornography
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 19:24:05

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

      Getting 'turned on' is part of our physical nature, that is quite
    true. However, Human beings are not like animals who have (and need)
    no sense of intelligent responsibility toward the welfare of others.
      They have no need to exercise restraint and moderation in their
    sexual behavior. Human beings, not having inborn restraints against
    any particular form of behavior, must largely substitute intelligence
    for instinct. I outlined some of my objections in the original message.
      There is NOTHING in pornography that promotes anything besides
    selfish irresponibility.
      I read a quote one time that said "sex is nice, but love is nicer".
    Getting 'turned on' in itself is not necessarily evil-- but violence,
    murder, burning buildings, and small children are what turn some people on.
    Is that kind of thing healthy?
    On the other hand, if you happen to get 'turned on' by your husband or
    wife-- There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. (Calvinists and
    ancient Catholic theologians to the contrary.)

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77220
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porno
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 19:26:56

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    If I were a pig or a dog, I would very likely be turned on by a pig or a
    dog, especially at certain times of the year. How many dogs or pigs get
    turned on by humans?

    [A]bort, [B]ack, [C]ontinue or [E]nter reply:Continue

    Message: 77221
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/Carpenter
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 20:03:30

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    Message: 77222
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Jesus' marriage.
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 20:14:36

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    Message: 77223
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Everyone
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 01:25:33

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    God got your tongue?

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    Goodbye, Peter Petrisko
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    Caller # 162350 (5 today)
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    Mail to Nick Ianuzzi
    Date: 07/09/91  Time: 23:30:31

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    Date: 07/19/91  Time: 00:32:10

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    Mail from Melissa Dee
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 23:18:53

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    How was the birthday bash?  Did he have an open mike there?
    Yeah, the humidity's got me real cranky, too.  All these wedding plans and
    issues aren't helping either.  I swear, we've never had a fight but the
    tention is getting higher these days.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Just an even alone can produce stress.  Summertime stress may tend to be
     2:worse than wintertime stress, especially here in Phoenix.  Don't let it get
     3:to you, accept Jesus and let Him handle all the stress, I didn't.
     4:
     5:Pete's show was nice with about 75 people showing up.  I was tired but I
     6:heard the Seemen were really good.  They didn't have open mike and I was
     7:pretty much down anyway.  Too bad about Pee Wee, eh?
     8:end

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    Message: 1737
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Review
    Subject: Rosencrantz&Guilden-
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:53:58

    stern are dead.

    This is movie written and directed by Tom Stoppard, who wrote the play in
    the mid-sixties. It turned theatre on its ear.

    The setting is Denmark in the time of Hamlet, and our heroes are trying to
    figure out what is going on.  There is also the Player, played magnificently
    by Richard Dreyfuss, a band of actors, and the usual band of characters from
    Hamlet.  Most scenes center around R&G, or what they are watching or
    overhearing.

    The pace is usually quick.  I enjoyed Stoppard's arrangement of "The
    Question Game" in a badminton court.  Anybody else seen the Flying Karamozov
    Brothers do that routine while juggling?

    Go see it! Playing at the Harkins Camelview.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:movie/last

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     1:A friend of mine dropped oven and said he'd seen this movie and he wanted me
     2:to go see it with him.  Said it was real good.
     3:end

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    Message: 2058
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: songs
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 23:26:21

    I hardly get on here so sorry I haven't replied.  I think I will go ahead
    and buy the record anyway.  Thanks for the info!

    Message: 2059
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Engaged
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 23:27:00

    Anyone notice that within the word engaged, is "gag"?

    Message: 2060
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Lasta
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 01:24:12

    And also, AGED.

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     1:Yes, the word engaged broken down literally means to have a gag placed over
     2:one's mouth.  What does married mean?
     3:end

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    Message: 77198
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:30:10

     SM]]Current Islamic culture is not all that different from a
     SM]]fundamentalistic version of any of the Judeao-christian religions. The
     SM]]same violence and intolerance is latent in Christianity as well...

    Latent in some people who call themselves Christians, certainly.  I think
    there's a big difference when you consider the message of Christ *himself*,
    which properly speaking is the core of Christianity, and the fact that Islam
    relegates Jesus to the status of a mere "prophet", thus also burying the
    supreme importance of the message.

    Message: 77199
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (1/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:32:10

    "God is dead" sounds like crackpot theology to me.  To propose that God is
    dead, they would have to assume that He existed in the first place, which
    would be a denial of the atheism they were presumably advancing.  Anyway, it
    doesn't sound like the same guys.

    These were three fellows associated with the BBC who wrote a book called
    "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".  It's a long and involved story that starts with a
    mystery (never satisfactorily solved) in the village of Rennes-le-Chateau up
    in the Haut-Languedoc.  It's a charming little place in the middle of Cathar
    country, which has age-old associations with the Templars and so forth.
    They did years of digging through various historical records, mysterious
    manuscripts from a strange organization based in Switzerland called the
    "Prieure' de Sion", and lots of other stuff.  All of that need not concern
    us here, because the theory that Jesus was married could well be examined in
    isolation from the rest.

    Beau mentioned that it would be highly unusual, and disapproved of, for a
    Teacher, a Rabbi, to be unmarried in Jesus' time; and Roger mentioned the
    suggestion that the wedding at Cana was Jesus' own wedding.  Both of these
    bits of evidence were cited in the book, where they pointed out that Jesus'
    action in replenishing the wine, at his mother's insistence, suggest the
    responsibilities of the host and hostess.  Later: "the governor of the feast
    called the bridegroom, and saith unto him, [...] "Thou hast kept the good
    wine until now".  (John 2:9-10)

    Message: 77200
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (2/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:33:13

    A possible inference is that these words were addressed to Jesus himself.

    There is a great deal more, but in addition the authors tackle the question
    of who Jesus' wife might have been, if he was married.  Two likely
    candidates come up: "Mary Magdalene", and "Mary of Bethany", the sister of
    Martha and Lazarus.  If the latter was the case, then Lazarus was Jesus'
    brother-in-law.

    As Thad says, the interesting thing is that *nowhere* in the Gospels does it
    say that Mary Magdalene was ever a prostitute.  She seems to have gotten
    this reputation from elsewhere.  What evidence is there to even suggest it
    in the Gospels?

    The Gospels mention three women of interest: Mary Magdalene, Mary of
    Bethany, and a third, unnamed woman described as "a sinner".  It does not
    say she was a prostitute, though one might infer that.  Luke 7:36-50 tells
    of her washing Jesus' feet with her tears, wiping his feet with her hair,
    and anointing them with ointment from an alabaster box as he dines in the
    house of a Pharisee.

    Mary Magdalene, as Thad pointed out, is said to have had "seven devils" cast
    out of her (Luke 8:2).  One could perhaps *infer* that this had something to
    do with sin, but it could also be a physical illness or more likely a mental
    one that Jesus cured.

    Message: 77201
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (3/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:34:15

    A key question is, were any two of these women -- or even all three -- one
    and the same?  There are, of course, three possibilities for pairing them.
    They could all be different; or two of them could be the same.  But if any
    two pairings could be proven, then all three women are the same.  The
    authors note that Matthew, Mark and John all say Mary Magdalene was present
    at the Crucifixion, but fail to mention Mary of Bethany -- which is curious
    if she was a close follower of Jesus.  But if these two were the same woman,
    the absence of "Mary of Bethany" would be explained.  She was there really.

    I don't know of any evidence that Mary Magdalene was the same as the unnamed
    "sinner" who washed and anointed Jesus' feet.  The only thing I noticed to
    suggest it is juxtaposition: Mary just happens to be mentioned at the
    beginning of Luke 8, right after the anointing episode.  But she is
    introduced in quite a different context.

    The authors suggest that this unnamed "sinner" was in fact Mary of Bethany,
    who oddly enough is also described as anointing Jesus' feet with ointment of
    spikenard, and wiping them with her hair -- this time in John 12:1-8.

    Another interesting, though confusing, thing is that early Church tradition
    seems to have regarded all three women as being different, as apparently the
    Eastern church still holds today.  (I have a friend who is Greek Orthodox.
    I'll have to ask her if she knows anything about this the next time I talk
    to her.)

    Message: 77202
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (4/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:35:37

    But in the sixth century, Pope Gregory I (inventor of the Gregorian chant)
    declared that they were all one and the same.  If this is the case, then the
    anointing described by Luke is presumably identical with the anointing
    described by John.  Yet the latter took place in the house of Mary of
    Bethany, Martha, and Lazarus, not that of a Pharisee; and the words
    attributed to Jesus are different on each occasion.  So if the same event is
    being described, we would have to admit that the account in one of the
    Gospels, at least, is not precisely true in every detail.  (Unless, of
    course, Lazarus was also a Pharisee!)

    Whatever the truth of the matter is, there is no proof in the canonical
    Gospels that Mary Magdalene was ever a prostitute.  We take an awful lot for
    granted that is simply tradition, perhaps introduced at a later time.

    For that matter, I can't find anything in the Gospels to say that either
    Jesus or Joseph was a carpenter.  But we all "know" they were, so I suppose
    it should be there somewhere.  Does anybody know where?

    The suggestion that Jesus was married does seem to strike people as
    astounding, even blasphemous.  Why should this be?  There are two reasons.

    The first seems to be the curious double standard about sex promulgated by
    the Church.  One half of the standard says that sex is perfectly all right
    really; at least, it isn't a sin within the context of marriage.

    Message: 77203
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (5/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:36:47

    On this basis, what is sinful about Jesus being married?

    But the other half of the standard suggests strongly, though not explicitly,
    that sex is somehow tainted with more than a suggestion of "sin".  Sex is
    all right within marriage, yes; but only as long as it's intended for
    procreation; or at least, as long as you do nothing to actively interfere
    with the possibility of procreation.  What we get out of that is that the
    *primary* purpose of sex is not enjoyment.  That is easily extended to the
    notion that while sex itself is not sinful, *enjoyment* of sex is.

    And it goes farther, because priests and nuns are not allowed to be married.
    This sends a strong message that while sex is not *exactly* sinful, if you
    want to be truly Godly, you had better abstain from it.  If this is really
    true, then being married would ruin Jesus' image.

    Yet nowhere in the Bible does it say such things about sex, about the
    enjoyment of sex, or about contraceptive practices.  It is possible to infer
    God's wish for us to "be fruitful and multiply"; but is this truly a
    commandment, or is it simply an invitation?  And the Bible does not command
    anyone to celibacy.  These are not Scriptural teachings, or the words of
    Jesus.  These teachings are added by the Church on the basis of weak and
    dubious inferences from Scripture.  If people feel the idea of Jesus being
    married is blasphemous, it certainly isn't because Jesus would have been
    contradicting his own message.  The idea of blasphemy comes from elsewhere.

    Message: 77204
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (6/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:37:42

    The second reason people would be astonished -- shocked, even -- is the
    obvious one: why on earth didn't the Gospels tell us?  We don't know what
    Jesus looked like physically, because the Gospels don't bother to tell us.
    If we discovered evidence that Jesus had a scar on his face or a mole on his
    arm, we wouldn't be surprised, merely fascinated.  We wouldn't criticise the
    Gospels for omitting such details.  But being married is hardly a trivial
    detail.

    We could argue that the Gospels were forgetfully written, or clumsily
    edited; that the writers took it for granted that everybody knew Jesus was
    married and didn't need telling.  They were written some time after Jesus'
    life, many of the events having to be recalled from memory.  There are other
    places where the Gospels are vague, or inconsistent.  All the same, I think
    this is a feeble excuse for such a glaring omission.

    I think there is evidence for a good deal of editing and rewriting of the
    Gospels in early times.  It it widely held that the first three "synoptic"
    Gospels were partly constructed from an earlier, common source which is now
    lost.  We might ask why, and how, such a precious writing came to be lost.
    The authors of the book also cite documentary evidence of a portion of the
    Gospel of Mark that was deliberately suppressed.

    Message: 77205
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (7/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:40:16

    We know that a lot of selection went on in the fourth century when the Bible
    as we know it today was compiled.  It's not at all unreasonable to suppose
    that the Church didn't confine its attention to omitting whole books, but
    did a little editing on a smaller scale as well, to make the picture of
    Jesus conform a little better to some of their prejudices about celibacy.
    And also, incidentally, to avoid blaming the Romans for the Crucifixion and
    dump all of the blame on the Jews.  Some of this editing could account for
    the vagueness in parts of the Gospels that give rise to the questions we
    have today.

    When I toured the Vatican, I saw the Sistine Chapel and all the usual
    things.  But I would love to have known what secrets might be hidden away in
    vaults and archives only a couple of hundred feet away from where I stood.

    Did Mary Magdalene have questionable morals?  Possibly.  But whether or not
    she was the wife of Jesus, it is just as possible that she was a blameless
    woman who has been unfairly slandered for fourteen hundred years or more.

    If she was slandered, why do it?  This is sheer speculation.  If Jesus was
    married, perhaps to brand her as a woman who was not fit to be Jesus' wife
    and thus cast doubt on any belief in such a marriage.  Or to portray her as
    a temptress who destroyed (in the Church's eyes) the perfection of the
    perfect Man, a kind of latter-day Eve.

    Message: 77206
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Magdalene (8/8)
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 04:41:01

    I have to add that there was a great deal more in the book that I can't
    possibly go into here.  Yet it is odd that the authors came under the most
    vehement criticism, not from the Catholic church, but from the Protestant
    church, Anglicans in particular.  In contrast, the authors said that "an
    important exfunctionary in the Catholic Church confided to us personally
    that the upper echelons of his hierarchy (although they would never make a
    public statement on the matter) privately acknowledged the plausibility, if
    not the veracity, of our conclusions."  And a person who *was* named -- Dr.
    Malachi Martin, a former member of the Vatican's Pontifical Institute,
    publicly conceded that "there was ultimately no real theological objection
    to a married Jesus".

    Message: 77207
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: odd couples
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:15:29

    Roger Mann and Peter Petrisko. Rather odd couple, to say the least.

    Message: 77208
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger Lantern/77179
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:19:02

    You have slipped further than I ever thought possible with a comment like
    that, Mr. Mann. In the words of the Master Himself: "By thy words thou shalt
    be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Better be a bit
    more careful how you speak, for one day you WILL give an account for every
    idle word you speak.

    Message: 77209
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/cruising
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:24:19

    According to last nights newscast, the grand prix garages on Washington St.
    have been opened up to the cruisers for 4 weekends, and that's where they're
    gathering to show off their cars and stereos. I think that the city has
    blocked off southbound traffic on Central for that period also, which would
    account for the lack of cars there.
     Good to see you back, by the way.

    Message: 77210
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi Marlin
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:32:29

     Either you missed some of my messages and got a wrong impression, or you
    just misread the ones you did read, or you have the wrong person.
     I have absolutely no problem with anyone, male or female, pursuing a career
    with al the success that their ability will permit them to achieve.
     I do feel, however, that, should a couple decide to become a family, some
    consideration must be given as to the proper rearing of the children. One of
    the major problems with our youth today is the benign neglect that they
    suffer through the lack of family strength and unity. Day care centers and
    latchkey programs will never take the place of a secure home with at least
    one parent available for instruction, discipline and love at all times. If
    following motherhood as a fulltime, rewarding and productive career is
    synonomous with being "doomed" to you, then please don't ever consider
    becoming a parent, for the sake of any offspring you may produce. We have
    all the kids without foundation, purpose or hope that we can handle now.

    Message: 77211
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/last 8
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 05:47:00

     You are obviously very well read, and have no doubt researched this topic
    much more in detail than any of us here. I can respect that, and appreciate
    your posts.
     Having said that, though, I must say that my faith is grounded in th Word
    of GOd, the Bible, and I do feel that, if Jesus was ever married, such an
    important fact would not have been overlooked or ignored, nor would it have
    been hidden in mysticism, such as is suggested in the questions concerning
    the wedding feast at Caanan. According to Scripture, Jesus is never depicted
    as the governor of the feast, but an attendee as a friend.
     While it may be true that depicting Mary Magdalene as a prostitute may be
    more tradition than Scripture, the supposition is certainly present in
    Scripture.
     I thank you for your presentation of the result of your study, but I think
    it may point out the danger of allowing other writings to explain Scripture,
    when all we really need is Scripture and faith to explain Scripture.

    Message: 77212
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Glory be to Annie!
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 08:00:45

    And, Ann, as I've told you in the past, you can buy magazines showing men
    in, as you put it, "ALL their glory" at your neighborhood Circle K.

    Message: 77213
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on glory
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 08:50:37

    Uhhhh .. I don't think you know what I mean when I say -in all their glory!
    Let me put it this way - not just naked in full view, but full blown in full
    view! Got it? *]]] ANN O. [[[*

    Message: 77214
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Full Blown for Ann
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 10:07:45

    Yes, I DO understand.  A specific suggestion awaits you in mail.

    Message: 77215
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/Jesus
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:29:01

    You are right, the subject of the bachelorhood of Jesus could be taken up on
    its own. Check out the book _Was Jesus Married?_  (author forgotten)

    Holy Blood, Holy Grail was an interesting, tortured conspiracy theory about
    secret rulers of Europe and plots to place certain bloodlines onto certain
    European thrones, as well as to put one onto the throne of Jerusalem as well
    (therefor being part of the cause of the Crusades).  As I recall, the "Jesus
    was married" bit was used to say that he had a child, and that Joseph and
    Mary traveled to England to keep it safe (being, as it was, the offspring of
    royal Jewish blood (either through Mary or Jesus, depending upon which
    Gospel you believe...)   They also say that *this* was the Holy Grail - the
    bloodline of Abraham and King David.

    Message: 77216
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Jesus&Mary
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 11:42:16

    Perhaps I should leave Gordon to take up the lance, but...

    I thought Gordon did a good job of presenting the evidence about marriage
    and the nature of Mary.  Yet you dismiss them without addressing them.

    As to relying on other sources than the Scripture in order to understand it,
    where have you been when the apologists have been "interpreting" scripture
    for us heathens?  Why haven't you been decrying the addition of "historical
    background" when all that we "really need is Scripture and faith to
    understand Scripture" ?  (I guess I'll not understand it anytime soon, eh?)

    Reverend Beauregard Jackson Culpeper Dog, Colonel, CSA, retired

    Message: 77217
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Speaking of members
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 14:13:58

    I guess we know where Paul Rubens got his nickname, now.

    Message: 77218
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul Reubens
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 15:59:10

    His attorney couldn't figure out why he gave is stage name. Perhaps he was
    looking for an excuse to stop doing the character?

    Message: 77219
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Pornography
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 19:24:05

      Getting 'turned on' is part of our physical nature, that is quite
    true. However, Human beings are not like animals who have (and need)
    no sense of intelligent responsibility toward the welfare of others.
      They have no need to exercise restraint and moderation in their
    sexual behavior. Human beings, not having inborn restraints against
    any particular form of behavior, must largely substitute intelligence
    for instinct. I outlined some of my objections in the original message.
      There is NOTHING in pornography that promotes anything besides
    selfish irresponibility.
      I read a quote one time that said "sex is nice, but love is nicer".
    Getting 'turned on' in itself is not necessarily evil-- but violence,
    murder, burning buildings, and small children are what turn some people on.
    Is that kind of thing healthy?
    On the other hand, if you happen to get 'turned on' by your husband or
    wife-- There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. (Calvinists and
    ancient Catholic theologians to the contrary.)

    Message: 77220
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porno
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 19:26:56

    If I were a pig or a dog, I would very likely be turned on by a pig or a
    dog, especially at certain times of the year. How many dogs or pigs get
    turned on by humans?

    Message: 77221
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gordon/Carpenter
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 20:03:30

      On the occasion of Jesus' return to preach in Nazareth, where he had grown
    up, Mattew records (Matt 13:54-56) records that they asked "is this not the
    carpenter's son?". Mark (Mark 6:1-3) records that they asked "is this not
    the carpenter?". Luke (Luke 4:22) records "Is this not the son of Joseph?".

    Message: 77222
    Author: Thad Coons
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Jesus' marriage.
    Date: 07/28/91  Time: 20:14:36

      The writers of the Gospels cannot be held responsible for recording
    or omitting details that WE, centuries later, think important. We know
    that Peter was married, because his wife's mother was healed by Jesus.
    We infer that Paul was not, because of his advice to the unmarried
    (widowers?) and widows. (He may have been widowed himself: He grew up
    a 'strict Pharisee', and marriage was considered by them a religious duty.)
      But other than that, supposing Jesus to have been married, unless she had
    done anything unusual or prominent, or connected to some important event or
    teaching, there would have been no reason to mention his wife. Great
    portions of Jesus' life and youth are omitted, anyway.
      I would be interested in your evidence that part of Mark was deliberately
    suppressed, though.

    Message: 77223
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Everyone
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 01:25:33

    God got your tongue?

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Paul/every last word

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Gordon just gave us a million dollar education and all you can do is cop
     2:out.
     3:
     4:Remember what happens when pearls are cast.
     5:
     6:And for your object of worship holding me accountable for "every last word"
     7:I say....well good luck.
     8:
     9:                                Rod
    10:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 77224

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Thad/pigs etc.

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I don't know the answer to that one.  What does the bible say about pigs and
     2:goats being turned on by human animals?
     3:
     4:What about sheep?
     5:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 77225

    Public Bulletin Board command:RC77224-

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 77224
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/every last word
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 02:43:54

    Gordon just gave us a million dollar education and all you can do is cop
    out.

    Remember what happens when pearls are cast.

    And for your object of worship holding me accountable for "every last word"
    I say....well good luck.

                                    Rod

    Message: 77225
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad/pigs etc.
    Date: 07/29/91  Time: 02:45:02

    I don't know the answer to that one.  What does the bible say about pigs and
    goats being turned on by human animals?

    What about sheep?

    Public Bulletin Board command:G

    Goodbye, Rod Williams
    You were on 28:36

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