### Apollo BBS Archive - May 8 - 12, 1990

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 00:45:29

    What Apollo GT tapes do you have?  Dean would like to make the Apollo movie
    and we are trying to find all tapes of Apollo users we can borrow.
    With all the tapes, Dean can make "Apollo, the MOVIE".

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I guess I have some footage of the "Rocket GT".  Sounds like a good idea,
     2:the Apollo Movie.

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 16:40:05

    Thanks Rod, Got the check for Westfall's $tatus renewal for one year.
    It will be added to the "BBS users for Christ" fund. Thanks and God bless
    you Rod.

            by the way, Gordon Little enjoyed the film with you at the Bob's Big
    Boy GT.  Your turned up eye-brows showed up real well.  I hope we can put
    together a good movie with all the tape we are getting.  Ann said she has
    two tapes that she is going to let us use.

                            clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Is Gordon any relation to Dean?  I'm pleased my eyebrows showed up real good
     2:and the fact I showed up at all just proves that I am not a vampire.  See?

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6442
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl / 6437
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 18:23:09

    (BTW) Welcome back to $.
    Egads...I'm trembling with a miasma of dead reckoning unbelief...
    could it be true that SOCIETY is made up of individuals?
    Arrghh!
    That means that if personal accountability doesn't exist, nor can
    societal accountability.
    Me thinks Societal accountability is just another secularistic way
    of conveniently disposing of responsibility altogether, without the
    disposers being aware of that.
    To me, Societal accountability is like having red herrings for the
    main course .

    Message: 6443
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/Agno-Christian
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:18:15

    And people say I'M confused!

    *grin*

    Message: 6444
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/6426
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:27:53

    That is why I against the practice of an "altar call," as I've said earlier.
    It can (IMHO) potentially pressure someone into "making a decision" that he
    or she is unsure of in his or her mind. Pressure by one's peers during an
    altar call can make one feel "forced" into Christianity.

    This is why I feel that one should be given the opportunity to attend
    classes on Biblical instruction, and THEN make a decision whether or not to
    join that church. Furthermore, that decision should not be pressured, and
    the person should not be looked down upon for desiring not to become a
    member.

    This was done for me at the church I currently attend, and I am thankful to
    them for it.

    Message: 6445
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: Roger/6439
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:31:23

    (I did not mean to hit "R"ebuttal as the category, sorry.)

    I didn't ask "how" you made the decision, but "where" you make the decision
    of what is right and wrong in the Bible. Where do you draw your boundary
    lines on what God can be or do? How do you make the decision to read the
    Bible and say "this is true" or "this is untrue?" In short, what is your
    yardstick for truth?

    Message: 6446
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/Thanks/6441
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:32:01

    You are certainly welcome!

    Daryl

    Message: 6447
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/SociResponse
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:35:19

    And if societal accountability does not exist due to the lack of an
    existance of personal accountability, then, then since, um.... AAAAAA-
    AAAAUURRRRRRAAAAAARRRRGHHHH!

    Don't do that to me, Mike! (Heh heh heh)

    Message: 6448
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Question?
    Subject: That's RIGHT
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 07:35:56

    How am I a $tatus user again?

    (Spock eyebrows)

    Message: 6449
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: daryl/confused
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 11:07:47

    Who said I'm confused ? Actually it has taken these many years to wipe out
    the emotional trauma inflicted by the Baptists church in its attempt to
    brain-wash me into belief. It has only been in the last 15 years or so that
    I have been able to think clearly about what religion is all about and what
    the relation of the fundamentalists is to my own world-view.

    Message: 6450
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: daryl/6445
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 11:14:51

    I'll give an example. Take the Joshua stories in the old Testament. The
    crimes committed by Joshua are clearly crimes because I don't believe
    in a killing God. The idea of a killing God is in total opposition to the
    idea of God that Jesus represents. That is, a God who is loving and
    forgiving. So, one of the yardsticks I use is does this message increase or
    decrease the idea of forgiveness, tolerance, love. Another example that I
    reject is the story of Ananias and his wife in Acts. This story is a
    regression to the OT kill-em God, and therefore not a message from God.
    Likewise, when people use verses to bash others, those verses are most
    likely
    suspect. Another example. In Matthew Jesus utters some pretty strong
    anti-Semitic words about the priests. This is so out of character and so
    against the idea of tolerance and love that it must have been added by the
    writer to bolster his or her own prejudice. So, in short, I think we take
    the central message of Jesus which is love, tolerance, understanding,
    turning the other cheek and compare it with the message of the passage. If
    it does not fit, I reject it.

    Message: 6452
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 19:38:24

    I goofed...sorry about the number skipping...I had to delete 6451
    because it was an incomplete message and I meant to [A]bort it rather
    than [S]ave it. Those keys are too close!

    Anyone who reads the entire book of Matthew and turns around and says
    what you just stated gives me the impression that you either;
    (A) Wishfully use this as an example to suit your specific bent
    or
    (B) Is incapable of reading and connecting passages in context with
        each other.
    Kinda like when Jesus got riled with the money changers...it doesn't
    mean he's not kind and loving at all. It means he felt strongly about
    something so obviously destructive ...
    Read into it whatever you wish. In fact, you could read into it that
    Jesus was against bankers if you'd like. Or you could say that Jesus
    *hated* money. Doesn't make it true, but you can say it does.

    Message: 6453
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 05:59:23

     It seems to me that you have a somewhat incorrect concept of the altar call
    as it is given, at least anywhere I have ever heard it.
     The altar call is not an invitation to join the church, or any church. It
    is an invitation given to become one in the body of Jesus Christ by publicly
    acknowledging Him as one's personal saviour, and the Lord of one's life.
     People can come under conviction at any time, but are especially sensitive
    to the moving of the Holy Spirit during a Spirit anointed service. I think
    that any fellowship of believers that failed to give an individual the
    opportunity to respond to the calling of the Spirit is negligent in their
    responsibility before God.

    Message: 6454
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/6449
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 06:02:52

     Sure sounds like secular humanism to me. "Boy, am I ever great! I'm so
    good, I'll just give GOd second place in my life, or maybe even third. Maybe
    I'll even rewrite that silly book that everyone thinks He wrote. Hmmmm. The
    Bible according to ROger. Sounds good."
    barf

    Message: 6455
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 06:11:05

     So you don't believe in what you call a "killing God". THen I can presume
    that you also don't believe in a righteous God, or a just God, or even a
    dependable anad stable God, who can be depended on to be consistent in every
    aspect of His being.
     "The fear (reverence) of God is the beginning of wisdom". How could one
    reverence a wishy-washy God who in one word condemns something as sin and
    abomination, and in the next breath allows His creation to wallow in it
    without any fear of righteous retribution?
     Just as a child learns no respect for a parent who is inconsistent in
    discipline or attitude, God's children could not be expected to respect or
    revere a heavenly Father who can't make up His mind.
     To say that such and such an act is worthy of death, and then not execute
    the prescribed penalty is inconsistent with God's WOrd that says "I AM the
    Lord. I change not." Praise God for his consistency and dependability!

    Message: 6456
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/Scripture
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 06:58:41

    I see that you understand God to be loving, and forgiving. But he is also
    just, righteous, and holy. There are things about God that, given our limit-
    ed knowledge and intellect, we cannot understand. I know that God is just
    and fair, and does not dispense justice in an unfair manner, even though it
    may not make sense to us why he did what he did. But to eliminate those
    things about God that you do not understand, is to attempt to mold him into
    your own image of what you think he should be. Rather than disregarding what
    you do not understand, why don't you research into why these things
    happened? There are some excellent commentaries out there that can shed some
    historical and contextual light on some of the more difficult books and
    passages. I highly recommend the "NIV Study Bible." You have to understand
    that, though the message of the Bible is timeless, that there are some
    things that come together a little better when you understand a few things
    about the time and place in which they were written, along with being able
    to view them in a wider context. If you would like to see an NIV Study Bible
    sometime, let me know, and I would be more than happy to let you examine
    mine.

    Message: 6457
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/Roger
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 07:16:21

    Yes. Also, when Jesus was chastising the Scribes and Pharisees, he was not
    being "anti-Semitic." One, he was a Jew himself... BUT, he knew their hearts
    and minds. He chastised their hypocrisy, pride, greed, self-indulgence, and
    wickedness. He did not hate them, but what they did. They honored God with
    their lips, but their hearts were far from him, and their hearts were
    hardened. They nitpicked at him over what they THOUGHT were infractions of
    the Law by Jesus. When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, they did not praise God
    for it; rather they tried to chastise him for working on the Sabbath, and
    even said that he was driving out evil spirits by the power of Beelzebub.
    They were ceremonially clean, but on the insides their hearts were black.

    He chastised Christians no less (The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia
    in Revelation).

    Message: 6458
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: daryl/bad god
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:25:09

    Let's read Joshua together. It doesn't take a commentary to understand
    the use of YHWH to justify killing these poor people. It makes me sick.
    It makes me want to puke. This stuff is evil ! By anybody's measure.

    Message: 6459
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Pauley on Roger
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 10:34:57

    I go along with Roger in not believing in a 'Killing God'! Doesn't make any
    sense or goes along with what Jesus taught. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6460
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 11:22:07

    Ah shutup.. you haven't read the bible and the only time you get into
    discussions is to take a knife and stab it into someone in the
    middle of the discussion. Your poison is worthless here.

    Message: 6461
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: killing god
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 13:17:54

    Interesting. The book I am reading _Who Wrote The Bible_ states that the
    folks who wrote the P version (Numbers, Leviticus) were Priests and they
    had a view of God as the meanest man in town. The JE (Yahweh/Elohim) group
    that wrote the other parts of the Pentateuch, viewed God as merciful and
    forbearing. So, we get this difference of opinion even in the very earliest
    days of the religion. I think we have hit on a fundamental (no pun intended,
    HAH) difference that is manifested right here with the folks who want to
    "hang 'em" and the "wimpy, bleeding-heart liberals". Guess which one Jesus
    Christ was ? (he was no wimp, but think about it).

    Message: 6462
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 15:19:02

    Re:  "It makes me sick. It makes me want to puke. This stuff is evil !"

    Hey Cliff!  I think we got a problem here.  I think Rod Williams is logging
    in under Roger's name and leaving messages!

    Message: 6463
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 16:32:57

    Nothing new really, I don't think it's Rod logging in under a different
    name but who knows?
    Unimportant. I see it as the usual attack on the Bible's validity and
    truthfulness...this has been an ongoing effort since the Bible was out and
    even before then. ANytime you get such a concentration of truths and
    put them in one place, it's sure to attract the negative elements. Always
    has always will.
    There's literally thousands of anti-theist like books out. All pretty much
    attempting to do the same thing. Sometimes they succeed in convincing
    someone sometimes they don't.
    Really, anymore I am kinda feeling like Paul is. Let them doubt and keep
    doubting because they will doubt for the rest of their lives.
    Uncertainty is a part of life we all accept. If they wish to remain in
    doubt about something we know need not be doubted, let them. You can
    lead a horse to water but you cannot force him to drink.
    They are wasted time and effort anymore.

    Message: 6464
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/6460
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 20:51:47

    Mike, careful with the words. Ok?

    Message: 6465
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/Who Wrote
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 20:52:24

    The book is THEORY, Roger.

    Message: 6466
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/Last
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 20:57:02

    We can't change hearts; only God can. And obviously some hearts are so
    hardened that no amount of Bible discussion is going to soften them up.

    Message: 6467
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: biblical reality
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:01:33

    Isn't better to believe in reality that fantasy ? If your belief is
    based on a fantasy, your belief is worthless. Less than worthless because
    you can never find the truth. If, on the other hand, one is awake to
    new possibilities and greater understanding, then one's faith may become
    strengthened because it is based firmly on stronger grounds.
    I think it is extremely important to understand that the theological basis
    for each of the various versions is based in part, anyway, on the politics
    of the time. For example, the Aaronid priest who wrote the "P" version
    of the Bible wanted to show that sacrifices should be made in one central
    location, i.e., the Temple. The JE folks, however, had no prohibition
    against sacrifices made anywhere. The JE folks, BTW, included Moses. Now,
    why did the Aaronid priesthood want sacrifices to be made centrally ?
    Because it established them as the only persons who could forgive sins. Now,
    do you see echos of this in our own religion ? You bet ! We have Catholic
    priests who are designated as the only ones who can forgive sins, and we
    have the protestants who take the old JE approach and say that God forgives
    sins for each individual. Now, how does this belittle the Bible ? How does
    this make the Bible any less of a document ? It doesn't ! It brings it
    alive, and makes it more useful to us.

    Message: 6468
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: theory
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:02:23

    And, my friend, what is wrong with THEORY ?

    Message: 6469
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/hardhearted
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:03:16

    I think it is the Bible-believers that have the hard hearts. Open
    your eyes, that you may see. Wake up !!!!

    Message: 6470
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/6465
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 06:08:08

    "The book is THEORY, Roger."
     The THEORY is HOGWASH, Daryl.

    Message: 6471
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Faith By Evidence
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 07:08:07

    I don't believe that faith can be attained by evidence, for that makes faith
    a human work. If Christ himself came down and performed a miracle today on
    live coast-to-coast television, the first response from non-believers would
    be a mad rush to DISPROVE what just happened.

    I believe that, though JEDP theory is interesting, the majority of evidence
    rests upon Mosaic authorship. Neither possibility changes what is written in
    the Pentateuch, so I think the emphasis should be placed upon what is
    written, and not who wrote it.

    Message: 6472
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/6469
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 07:09:17

    Wake up and join the rest of the "world", huh?

    Message: 6473
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Faith by evidence
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 09:24:14

    I think that there is a difficult question that must be answered. When do
    you use faith to believe ? (What?) and when do you accept evidence
    indicating something contrary to opinion. Quite frankly, the idea of Mosaic
    authorship is a tradition, certainly not something writ in the heavens by
    God. Thus, the JEDP helps eliminate that confusion. Also, understanding how
    things are put together helps understand why some stories seem to be
    contradictory, for example the story of Noah where he either puts 2 of each
    kind or 7 of each clean kind. Whether you accept the story of Noah is
    another matter, likewise the story of the Garden of Eden. I think it is
    important to understand the Garden of Eden, where the story arose (if
    possible) and how it got into the Bible. Whether it is accepted literally or
    not, it tells the message of the separation of man from God's grace. The
    purpose of the Bible, as I see it, is to show the way back to God. The way
    back is through the cross for us.

    Message: 6474
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Theory
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 11:02:26

    Theories are wonderful ideas, concepts and summaries derived from
    puzzles of all varieties known. Nothing inherently wrong with a
    theory at all. It's the use and abuse of them that is wrong.
    WHen a theory is passed off as fact, hard evidence, irrefutable,
    undenyable and impossible to change and anyone who doesn't follow this
    regimented theory chastized for their differing viewpoint...
    That's when theories are wrong.
    When you understand something differently and are called "A sleeper",
    and any one of a barrage of ad hominem insults, the perpetrators of
    the insults are using their theory as fact and attempting to sell it as
    such.
    If the bible were to disappear today never to be seen again, my faith
    in God would not bend, fold or mutate one iota. Because after all the
    stones have been thrown, names and hatred sung, Jesus Christ who died
    on a cross for my sins and yours is still there for me. I can feel
    him in my heart, I can witness his will and rely on his love. These are
    things not of this earth and not of limitation, bounds or other human
    measuring sticks that will all one day be washed out and dissolve like
    so many soap bubbles.
    To think that one would live and die by what science says..the limited
    and insignificant abilities of men alone. Science told us the world
    was flat and anyone who didn't agree got the same as Christians today.
    Nothing has changed. What science can't explain, it fears and hates.

    Message: 6475
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike on me
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 14:12:32

    Sorry, but I have read the Bible and that is the conclusion I come to. I
    also am not spreading poison either. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6476
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: The minister
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 14:21:43

    At the risk of spreading some more of my poison that Mike accused me of -
    let me tell a true story ..
    Years ago when I belonged to the Lutheran church, we became very good
    friends with the minister/pastor. In one conversation he told us that one of
    the terrible things about going to Bible syminar was the atheists it
    produced! The future Lutheran pastors go through many years of Bible study
    and training. Evidently, through this study, they come to not believe in
    what they are suppose to teach! He said out of his class of 75 or so, half
    were atheists and they still went on to become pastors and have a church.
    He said that the studies produced doubts about the Bible. I remember being
    quite shocked at the time on hearing such a thing from our beloved pastor
    and wondered if he was one of them, but didn't have the nerve to ask at that
    time. Today I certainly would without hesitation.! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6477
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bible Study
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 18:42:26

    That's one topic where I'd have to agree. So many people will call
    themselves Christian and not have one idea of what it really is.
    Sure. A lot of things are hard to grasp..like how God could always have been
    and such...and how the universe never ends. In our finite  capacity,
    we can grasp but a small portion of the overall picture. How fascinating
    it is to stand on a dark mountaintop far away from cities and stare upward
    into the mass of tiny lights. It is then you begin to realize how just
    uncertain things are, how small you are and your overall insignificance
    in relation to where you are. The distances alone are staggering.
    A lot of people..and I do mean a LOT of people are sheep. They'll go
    along with whatever seems to be generally recognized as good and a normal
    thing to do. Trying to be a pastor of any church without really knowing
    or having Christ as your personal saviour would be iffy at best.
    There's been a lot of people I have talked to who are not called to Christ
    at all..but they often like to listen and puzzle over it. Nope, I doubt
    it's a puzzle to them. It's a calling because they keep comming back
    for more. As one gets older, ones heart gets harder and harder and
    harder. It's inevitable due to the society and general condition of
    a world hell bent on personal pleasures over responsibility.
    In fact, I predict that within my lifetime I doubt I will ever hear of
    Ann Oudin accepting Jesus as her personal saviour and allowing him to
    be a major part of her life. Simply because I think she's incapable of
    allowing herself to open her heart so full of hurt to a God she doens't
    want to know.

    Message: 6478
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike on Jesus
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 09:24:22

    I do not profess to believing the way you do, but it might come as a shock
    to you - I do believe in Jesus - always have, always will. I have NEVER said
    EVER that I was an athiest or an agnostic. I have my way of believing is
    all. You've just never asked! You assume I spread evil because I don't agree
    with you. Wrong!
    I have went the Bible route - the Sunday school teacher route - the church
    going route - the doubting route - the reading against the Bible route - and
    have come to my own conclusions about it all. I know in my heart that I
    don't know if any of it's true or not - if there's a God - if Jesus existed
    - if the Bible is 100% true or not - I choose to believe what I believe. It
    is all excepted on faith and faith alone re: of what you or anybody else
    says. You have no proof anymore than I have except what's in your heart.
    I do not beleive that God is a God of killing either, but of love only and
    understanding. We just don't know all that much about Him and if He is
    indeed there, then he will know how I feel. See? God is a personal thing to
    each individual that believes in Him. That is why Christians are at odds
    many times. Who knows? Who cares who is right?
    I find that if I live my life using Jesus as an example - not to go to
    Heaven, but to just get along and find a little happiness in this world - to
    get along with my fellow man, is enough for me. Leave it to God what happens
    to me. I certainly can't out guess Him and what's His purpose for me - all
    of us. I don't think you can either. If He is just a fantasy that mankind
    has made up - I haven't lost much because I'm no religious fanatic.
                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6479
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: ann/belief
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 11:28:40

    That makes two us. And that answers the question of whether I'm alone
    in the way I believe. I think there are millions of us, like you and me,
    who are quiet believers who don't go around ranting and raving and making
    a big deal out of it.

    Message: 6480
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 17:19:00

            Boy, do I wish I had time to read these posts carefully! I, also,
    wish I had time to reply. Suffice it to say, I am rather busy.
    How about a synopsis of this argument?
    Or, better yet ........... let me know who wins ........... (hehehe)

    I have encountered people like Roger before. They consider religion from an
    intellectual perspective and nothing else. They want to Reason and Reason
    only. Not even a bolt of lightening striking their head with a note attached
    saying something like "From me to you, God" will convince them because they
    would be arguing the reality of the bolt and the authenticity of the note
    and, indeed, if the God we are arguing about is the God that signed the
    note.

            You know, given the shape of the peanut, I conclude women evolved
    from the peanut.           (anyone want to dispute that statement?)
    Then again, looking at the woman of an older age, I must conclude she first
    evolved from the peanut then metamorphisized into an apple. There lies the
    connection between the apple and the biblical account of the fall of man and
    the apple and the reason why the bible keeps saying 'the fruit of thy womb'.
    With that in mind, I suggest us thinkers and scientists concentrate our
    efforts towards the apple, I think we can find the missing link.

    Message: 6481
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 17:57:25

    Re:  "I do believe in Jesus - always have, always will."

    See, I told you Annie was a Christian!  :-)  (-:

    Message: 6482
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 05:47:28

     Now I don't think I'll ever eat another apple! I may well be eating
    somebody's granny! What a thought!

    Message: 6483
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/Pastor
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 07:55:20

    Would you be willing to give me his name?

    Message: 6484
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/name
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 08:36:15

    Gads - that is a long time ago - I just remember his last name Pastor
    Hindrix. Not even sure on the spelling. He had been the paster of the Holy
    Cross Lutheran church, Missouri Synod for years - some where in La Puente,
    Calif. Why - you think you might know him? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6485
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 10:21:09

    Yeah, his first name was Jimmy and he had this really awesome
    choir...

    Message: 6486
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann on Jesus
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 10:25:32

    The poison I refer to is the spiritless and gutless side-attacks
    I see you putting in when something hateful is written about
    anyone who believes differently than you or roger or especially
    Rod Williams.
    You know what I'm talking about. It may not seem that way to you,
    but I call the shots the way I see them and make no mistake,
    if I think they're poison, I
    will write it that way.

    Message: 6487
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann / Roger
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 10:28:26

    Tell you what.
    Since Ann thinks I'm being unfair and Roger thinks I'm a hateful
    individual because I disagree with him, I'll keep my posts
    to the CHRistian SIG and the PUBlic sig.

    That way life can be happier for them

    Message: 6488
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/Pastor Hindrix
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 22:12:03

    No, just someone I would be interested in talking to.

    Message: 6489
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/6485
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 22:12:55

    And it was really cool how he would burn his guitar in front of the pulpit
    right after the sermon and just before the offering. DUDE!

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 65400
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last / Annie
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 18:12:18

    I think it must be Anns negative attitude towards emotional responses
    that clouds her judgement.
    She's the only female I know of that doesn't acknowledge the diference.
    I personally don't see where someone would classify one or the
    other as inherently bad or faulty.
    If we were all logical, then this world would be a terrible place to live
    in.
    If we were al emotional, the same applies.
    The women have a distinct difference in the balance of these two...more
    on the emotional. Suggesting that Anns response is more emotional than
    logical to begin with.

    Message: 65401
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 18:13:12

    Yes, very nice...but I must have missed your personal viewpoint on
    the whole issue.

    Message: 65402
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: TONITES GT
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 18:13:56

    Unfair!

    Message: 65403
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/modem
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 19:20:35

    Dean, I'll raise you to a 1200bps modem.  Where's Zak?  He has a few of my
    CDs...

    Message: 65404
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on rights
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 19:23:10

    Finally!  Somebody sees the problem with a "kill them ASAP" policy.  You
    must remember that the Bill of Rights is there to protect YOU.  Don't forget
    that it prohibits "cruel or unusual punishment" (or is that AND?).  You
    bloodthirsty lot should think about that -- some of your proposed
    punishments would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!

    Message: 65405
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean H.
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 20:32:35

            You're right so far--either God or your crystals have to be posited
    an existence without beginning. If there were a beginning, there must be a
    Beginner--some one or some thing which starts it.  So, the first starter has
    to be an eternal something--something which was not started. (There is a
    good logical argument to the effect that an unstarted something also can
    have no ending, but that's for another day.)
            Now, whether it is your crystals or God, something created or
    started something which has developed into the world we presently know. If
    that something is your crystals, then please be advised that I and many
    others worship those crystals, we feel that they demand a certain homage
    from us, and we call them God. Any body who is eternal and who can start
    with a cloud of gas and let this world evolve (or can say, "Let there be
    light," and find it good that there is light) can cause me to genuflect and
    adore.

    Message: 65406
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/executions
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 20:42:38

            There is not enough "killer instinct" in the world today, in spite
    of what you beg the question with. Those warped twisted criminal who
    perpetrate heinous crimes on innocent people deserve a fair trial, a
    thorough review, the chance for appeal, and good counsel. But fourteen years
    of expensive legal delays is a travesty of justice and a honey cart for
    lawyers who suck an income from the community by demanding the system's
    money to represent the criminal. We let this go on because there is too much
    of the teary-eyed liberal limp-wristed anti-community force.

    Message: 65407
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: execution.
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 20:49:08

    Wish I had time to answer that last one--the execution of the criminal is
    the right, duty, obligation, of society, after PROVING him guilty. It does
    not take 14 years!

    Message: 65408
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Emotions
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 22:03:12

    I disagree with Mike C., Bob T. and who ever else said that woman are more
    emotional than men by definition of their sex.
    Little boys cry and little girls cry.  At some point, the boys are not
    rewarded for this behavior, i.e. "big boys don't cry" and the girls are
    still rewarded for crying.  Men are taught to withhold their emotions (for
    the most part) by our society, if not by parents, than by TV and other such
    mediums.  Although, the advertising companies have banked in on the fact
    that women like sensitive men.  See the advertisement for _Cry Baby_ with
    Johnny Dep shedding a (obvious airbrushed) tear?
    I also learned not to cry and to withhold my anger from my step-mother.  It
    is acceptable for me to cry as in no one would really think I was a whimp or
    whatever but I still would never do so in public.  People are emotional.
    They may or may not learn to control it.
    Some women play off of the fact that it's "ok" to cry and are very
    manipulative.  But some men do the same thing; they just whine all the time.
    I don't think you can paint all women (or men for that matter) with the same
    brush.

    (Gee, where have I heard this before?)

    Message: 65409
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: War!
    Subject: Bodybuilding prejudi
    Date: 05/07/90  Time: 23:43:47

    I see that some people here seem to be prejudiced against those whose goal
    is to build a better body. Quite narrow-minded. Why does accepting people
    the way they are often include condemning those who try to change what they
    are?
    I saw a comment about female bodybuilders.
    I also saw posts about accepting overweight women.
    I don't mean to blast the obese, but I would much rather be with one of the
    two female bodybuilders that I know personally, than some overweight woman
    that doesn't care about how she looks. The difference, is, it is easy for
    one to be out of shape, it takes NO effort. Being a competition bodybuilder
    takes a lot of effort. I like the middle of the spectrum best, someone that
    takes care of themselves, shapes up, but not to the obsessive side.
    And to the person that said that most beautiful women are not nice people:
    I have found that many unattractive women harbor resentment that makes them
    unattractive of personality, also.

    Message: 65410
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: lost tapes
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 00:52:17

    Does anyone have 'lost tapes' of Apollo GTs.  If so, please contact either
    Dean Hathaway or I.

    The next time Zak or Peter want to bring a camera, I won't object.  Mr
    Hathaway has shown me what he can do with such film... I AM IMPRESSED!

    Where is Zak anyway, I was dissapointed he could not make the GT.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65411
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C./justice
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 05:33:53

     You said it far better than anyone John.
     It is my opinion that a criminal accused of a capital crime must be given a
    fair trial. If that trial results in a conviction, then there should be ONE
    appeal, just to make sure that nothing was missed or overlooked the first
    time. If that appeal results in conviction, then execution of the death
    penalty must be carried out swiftly and surely.
     There is absolutely no reason for society to bear the burden of feeding,
    clothing, housing and legal expenses for years of dragging a loser through a
    court system that has evolved into nothing more than a money maker for the
    greedy legal profession.

    Message: 65413
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/Monks/Bible
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 08:32:29

    The Monks feared God. With such a fear and reverence for Him, what makes you
    think that they would change His words just to suit their own selfishness?

    And what about the OLDER texts?

    Message: 65414
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/My Last/Reply?
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 08:33:17

    (tsi)

    Message: 65415
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hans
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 08:57:04

    Very well put!

    Message: 65416
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bobby/why?
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 09:09:59

    Re: Why wouldn't just the lethal injection be enough?"

    If he was lethal injected first, then beheaded, then there would be no
    chance of him escaping and killing people again! See Cliff's post! Ha ha.

    Actually, I wasn't talking about doing both - think the injection is best,
    with beheadment second best. I think throwing the murderer to the Crocodiles
    is better than the electric chair! That way, the state doesn't have to pay
    for Crocodile feed at the tax payers expense! *Heh
                       -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65417
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bobby on emotions
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 09:19:55

    Re: woman are not more emotional than men .......

    You say they are, but lets look at that closer ... little boys start off
    crying when they get mad just like girls do - but what is the classic thing
    parents say to their little boys? "Stop that crying! Boys don't cry!" "Be a
    man!" etc. etc. They DON'T say this to their little girls do they?

    I say most of the differences are environmental! Look to the animals for
    example - the male is usually the stud only - yes he fights for what's his
    and the female sits back and lets him. But on the whole, it is the female of
    the species that's the strongest in over all. Take the lioness for an
    example. She is really the King of Beasts, not the male. Most females feed
    and care for the young without the father's help - fighting off preditors
    etc. Nothing is more formidable than a tigress, lioness, that have young to
    protect. She doesn't cry, be emotional or have 'that time of the month'
    problems. Because no one has told her how to act - she is just nature's way.
    That is my point. -=*) ANN (*=-
    Tell me where men and woman are so differently emotionally - not programmed,
    really different and why. Tell me where the envirionment doesn't play a
    role.

    Message: 65418
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on emotions
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 09:22:48

    You can say my response is more emotional than logical if you wish. I find
    that a typical male response myself.
    You say I'm the only female that you know of that doesn't acknowledge the
    difference - well then, tell me the difference. And I'm NOT talking sexual
    organs either. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65419
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on emotions
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 09:28:51

    You've did it again - said it better than I have.
    Do you now see what I mean about starting a conversation with the men on
    this board on this subject? Most don't respond but the rest have typical
    male brain washed answers that they will hang on to regardless what women
    tell them! You would think they'd jump at the chance to learn more about
    women wouldn't you? I certainly would like to come to a better understanding
    of men - but when hit with things such as "That's just the way men are" -
    "women are more emotional" etc. etc. I learn nothing. Sad.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65420
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hans on building
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 09:30:36

    I like both male and female body builders and admire them for what they
    accomplish. Have you see the movie 'Pumping Iron'! I really enjoyed that. I
    also watch the contest on TV every chance I get. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65421
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: bible writers
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 11:05:17

    I am reading a fascinating book called  _Who Wrote The Bible_ by Friedman.
    Friedman "proves" that the first four books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus,
    Leviticus, and Numbers were written by at least two different groups, and
    perhaps as many as four and that the texts of the original documents were
    interlaced into one document. The two groups are known as "J" and "E" for
    their use of the God-name "Yahweh" and "Elohim". (Actually the "J" stands
    for the Judah group and the E group is shown to be the priestly group based
    in Shiloh in the northern kingdom. The evidence is pretty compelling, as
    many of the common stories are told twice, e.g., the creation story of the
    God El in Genesis 1 and the creation story of the God YHWH in Genesis 2-3.
    Even more fascinating is the interlacing of the two texts in the story of
    Noah which leads to some interesting and amusing conflicts. The two stories
    can be separated by putting the parts that name God El (or Elohim) in one
    version, and the God YHWH in another. If read separately they form a
    complete story. I am now half-way through the book and am reading about
    how these scholars determined that the prophet Jeremiah wrote and edited the
    history of the Jews from Deuteronomy to the King Josiah. I will enter some
    more information as I read it , as I am sure you will find it edifying.

    Message: 65422
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 12:57:43

    Nice to see a good attitude about it. Too many people are just stupid about
    it. A comment I have often heard is, "Why would you want to do THAT", or,
    about female bodybuilders, "Who would want to go to bed with that(actually,
    a different word was used for go to bed)".
    A funny story is about Andy Rooney. I didn't hear the show, but from second
    hand, it seems he had footage of Pumping Iron II. When they were showing
    Rachel McLish. He said, "Who would want to date THAT?". I would say that a
    rather large portion of single men, as she is quite baeutiful, her muscles
    are shapely and strong, but not overlarge. And she's a smart lady, too.
    Perfect package! Now, Mr. Rooney on the other hand....

    Message: 65423
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Wristfall
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 12:58:55

    Ok, the monks could have been deluded into thinking they had devine guidance
    in their changes. God has inspired your life, hasn't he?

    Message: 65424
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike C
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 13:53:19

      I can lend you the tape, or you can come and see it at my place if you
    like.
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 65425
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beau/Modem
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 13:55:39

      That's good, because it turned out that I didn't really have the 300 baud
    modem after all. I called Zak and he wanted to borrow it, but when I tried
    to find it I couldn't. I think I gave it to the guy who bought my old Epson
    printer because he had a 64. By the way, Zak can only use a modem that is
    made for a Commodore 64, since they don't have any rs232 interface on them.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65426
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C.
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 14:01:13

      Is it a logical decision to worship the God/crystals, or is it something
    you feel compelled to do regardless of whether there is reasonable evidence
    of their existance or true nature?
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 65427
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 16:02:35

    Re:  ""cruel or unusual punishment" (or is that AND?)""

    OK, I confess.  Popping someone's head off because the drop was too long is
    not cool.  We just have to make sure the drop is a little shorter.

    Message: 65428
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hands Glands
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 16:07:48

    Re:  "some overweight woman
    that doesn't care about how she looks"

    I don't think overweight women are overweight because they don't care how
    they look.  I think even the biggest care how they look.  Could it be that
    you are prejudiced against overweight women?

    Message: 65429
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 16:11:18

    Re:  "That way, the state doesn't have to pay
    for Crocodile feed at the tax payers expense!"

    I know!  We could feed them to the lions at the zoo.  That could kill about
    3 or 4 birds with one stone.  (Am I mixing metaphors or what?)

    Message: 65430
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 16:20:21

    Re:  "Look to the animals for example"

    Hey right!  I used to raise chickens when I was a kid.  The rooster (that's
    the male) is king of the chicken yard.  The hen (that's the female)
    literally lays down and lets the rooster rule.  Good suggestion.

    Re:  "Tell me where the envirionment doesn't play a role."

    That's hard to tell since no one is brought up in a non-envionment
    situation.  You ladies are just jealous because men are superior!  Ha!

    Message: 65431
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: hands on glands
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 19:29:08

    Shapely women are indeed nice to look at. I must beg to differ however,
    that women with "muscles" are not "shapely" in my definition. They're
    masculine. And Masculinity in strict definition is something I don't
    look for in a woman.
    Some folks have their own tastes. I admire the devotion to body building,
    but that's where it stops. Women with muscular physique remind me of
    men with female physique..
    Blech!

    Message: 65432
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 19:50:00

    Your question, or rather statement;
    "Tell me where the environment doesn't play a role." is like saying;
    Prove it, but leave Earth out of it.
    Like Bob pointed out, with few exceptions, nature parallels the instincts
    shown between the opposite sexes. Natural behaviour, escpecially if you're
    a strong advocate of the psuedo-science of evolution, dictates that
    behaviour of any kind be derived from adapting and conforming to the
    environment. I.E. You sleep at night etc.
    If the environment changed, so would behaviour.
    This male-female interaction and pattern has been going on since we
    started to record history...so stop belching this conspiracy theory already.
    I have read a few psycology books dealing with the human behavioural
    patterns. WHat is interesting is when each book, authored separately,
    touches upon that unique topic of male - female relationships. What has
    been substantiated is that, taking a purist form, a TOTAL female is all
    emotional, sickly dainty, absolutely beautiful and speaks in high
    tenor. The TOTAL male, a muscle bound cross between neanderthal and rocket
    scientist is logicaly driven, (sometimes URGE driven) ;-) and
    incapable of fully understanding the dainty, emotional female.
    Speaks in a gutteral grunting language and farts obsessively.
    Two complete (almost) opposites...and we should all know how strong the
    atraction is between complete opposites.
    I suppose that's why Atheists and Theists get along so well.

    Message: 65433
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 20:02:12

    No. Nevermind.

    Message: 65434
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/modem
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 20:07:57

    It turns out that Zak has a perfectly good 300/1200bps modem.  What he
    lacks is the RS232 interface in his C-64 (it is being loaned out for two
    months).  Since I have a perfectly good 300/1200bps modem as well (that is,
    not a brain-dead C64-only modem), I can't help him.

    Message: 65435
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/God
    Date: 05/08/90  Time: 20:32:48

            No, the logic just went to prove the existence of God/crystals--once
    that concxlusion is arrived at, logically, then comes the response to
    worship or not worship. The logical argument just went to the existence of
    the creator. Whether to worship Him or not, is, I think, not a logical
    decision, but rather simply a response to the Godhood/Crystalhood.

    Message: 65437
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CHIT CHAT
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 00:44:02

    TO SYSOP
    FROM JEFF LOCHANSKY
    I FOUND OUT COCO
    NET,COCO JET NO
    LONGER IN OPERATION
    SOMETHING ELSE:
    I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE
    A VIRUS OR SIMULAR
    DEVICE IN YOUR BBS
    IF I TRY TO SAVE DOWNLOA
    DED INFO IT CRASHES
    MY COMPUTER TOTALLY
    IF SAVING DOWNLOAD
    IS NOT POSSIBLE PLEASE
    LEAVE ME A MESSAGE UND
    CHIT CHAT
    THANK YOU SO MUCH

    Message: 65438
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 05:42:16

    "The state doesn't have to pay for crocodile feed at taxpayers' expense."
     I wasn't aware that we were feeding crocodiles too! I thought that the
    politicians, sports entepreneurs and homeless were enough!

    Message: 65439
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger/writers
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 05:49:36

     God, theologians, archeologists and historians down through the ages are
    pretty well agreed that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, as he
    was inspired by God to do so.
     But of course, I suppose Friedman, with all his wordiness, has convinced
    you that the rest of them are all wrong.
     What we seem to have here is just one more flawed personal opinion to throw
    into the melting pot. Another voice attempting to discredit the divinely
    inspired Word of God.
     I'll stick with the guy that brung me. I'll take God over Friedman.

    Message: 65440
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/"Who Wrote"
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:00:06

    I've read the book also. Interesting theory, but I don't feel the evidence
    is conclusive. Archaeological and literary research has tended
    to undercut the challenges to Mosaic authorship.

    Interesting reading, but take it with a grain of salt.

    Message: 65441
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/Rooney
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:01:10

    Maybe, just to bury the hatchet, he might venture dating a black homosexual
    bodybuilder.

    Message: 65442
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/65423
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:04:34

    Ok, then how do you explain, as noted earlier, the fact that all discovered
    copies of the OT and NT are virtually identical? Wait...wait! Let me guess,
    they altered Scripture to suit their tastes, burned all evidence to the
    contrary, and perpetrated their falsities to this day. Sorry, the Jehovah's
    Witnesses have been trying that line to support their introduction of the
    name Jehovah into the NT for years. Biblical scholars aren't having any.

    Message: 65443
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lochansky
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:07:51

    HE LOOKS AS
    IF HE IS IN
    DIRE NEED
    ANYONE WHO
    CAN HELP
    HIM MIGHT
    WISH TO
    DO SO
    QUICKLY!

    I might know someone who might have a term program fitting your needs. I'll
    see if I can get in touch with him today.

    Message: 65444
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff L./Virus
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:09:28

    It sounds like the problem might be in your terminal program, as no one else
    here seems to be having trouble downloading. What protocols does your
    program support? Are you using a standard ASCII protocol? If so, then there
    should be no problem. If XMODEM, then perhaps there is a bug in the download
    section of your terminal program.

    Message: 65445
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: daryl/who wrote
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 08:20:34

    I think that it is pretty well established that the J, P, D, and E writers
    did exist and that it primarily tradition that says the Moses wrote the
    Pentateuch. Modern linguistic analysis also helps determine authorship. For
    example, Friedman points out in the book that just one measure isn't enough
    to fix authorship, but that three or four measures combining make a pretty
    convincing case. I think knowing the author and the times in which the text
    is written helps to understand the context of the writing, so that
    mis-interpretations are less likely.

    Message: 65446
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 10:19:52

    Yeah - we could throw them to the lions! It's been done before.
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65447
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobbly on the sexes
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 10:22:55

    Have you ever tangled with hen sitting on a nest or with new chicks? Makes
    the rooster look tame in comparison.
    Men superior? How? Where? I have came to believe that woman are if there is
    to be a superior sex. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65448
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on the sexes
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 10:31:00

    "Sickly? Dainty? Muscle bound? Neanderthal? What phychology books are you
    reading anyway? Muscle bound? Very few men are that I can see. Women sickly?
    They out live men don't they? Neanderthal? I only see those types of men in
    the movies.
    As regard to the farting ..... that's a matter of expression and who want's
    to express themselves. Gender does not matter. However, I have never heard
    of a girl/women sitting around with a bunch of other girls, lighting them as
    I've heard of men doing. I guess that would be neanderthalish alright! I
    forgot about that. Hope I'm not thrown into the Zone for this message.
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65449
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on belching
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 10:58:41

    Re: "so stop belching this conspiracy theory" ''''

    What conspiracy theory? I wasn't aware of one. Typical male response!
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65450
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last!
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 11:14:12

    Ahahhhahahaaaaa!
    Actually, the very first time I saw someone "light-up" their gasseous
    expulsions was on a school bus in Australia...done by a teenage girl...
    TRUE!
    If you read my message concerning the psycho books, you would have read
    something like; the **TOTAL** MALE and FEMALE. These were extreemes
    presented by the authors to use as a yardstick. Unfortunately,
    your typical female brain is incapable of descerning this and as
    usual, off into a tizzy of emotional half-splattered sentences and fits
    and convulsions over the presented extreemes you went.
    You completely missed the point.
    You have just proven my pointr entirely!

    Message: 65451
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Last
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 12:59:54

    Proven your pointr?  What will your wife have to say about that...

    Message: 65452
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann/superior
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 13:13:05

    No doubt. Although my father-in-law has lived to the ripe old age of 86 and
    is "living" in a nursing home. The men are out-numbered by the women 10-1.
    Women live longer. So, at least from one criterion, age, women are superior
    to men. In fact, we men are so busy being macho and not crying and having
    hypertension and drinking with the boys and eat REAL food, good red meat,
    that we die 10 years sooner than women. We are also inferior from the
    standpoint of stupid. We are stupid. We work our tails off for until we
    retire, and then we die. The retirement pay WE earned is then "enjoyed" by
    our surviving spouses. Dumb. We are dumb.

    Message: 65453
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 15:05:43

    Re:  "Interesting theory, but I don't feel the evidence
    is conclusive."

    Gee, I thought that Roger said the author *proved* it?

    Message: 65454
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 15:07:50

    Re:  "Yeah - we could throw them to the lions!"

    Wait just a minute here.  Wasn't it the Christians that were thrown to the
    lions?  Maybe that's not such a good idea!  :-)

    Message: 65455
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 15:10:35

    Re:  "Men superior? How? Where?"

    Were are in charge aren't we?  Men always dominate the top positions.
    Maybe I should rephrase that.  The English finally put a woman in charge and
    look where they're at.

    Message: 65456
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 15:13:40

    Re:  "What will your wife have to say about that..."

    If you don't think I'm in charge, just ask my wife.
    (My wife made me say that.)

    Message: 65457
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob/proof
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 16:04:18

    I may have said the evidence was compelling, but I am not sure I said
    "proof". Nevertheless I would be interested in substantive criticism, and
    not the I-know-it-all-so-I'm-going-to-ignore-it responses I usually get from
    you and others. Daryl, at least, provides a response --- shows he thinks.
    What do YOU think about the J,E,D,P writing theory for the OT. And why ?
    What are the implications for fundamentalism ? Does it hurt the
    fundamentalist position ? Strengthen it ? Have no effect ? And why ? I would
    think that fundamentalists would be extremely interested in getting more
    information about the context of the OT, in order that the words can be
    interpreted even more accurately. So that sentences that don't make "sense"
    start to make sense, when understood in their historical context. These are
    all positive types of comments I would welcome from the conservative wing.
    But so far, all I have received (except from Daryl) are messages like yours.

    Message: 65458
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 16:18:49

    I would like to take the time out and read through the text which
    supports this theory..and be able to make my own mind up about what
    I have read in it...however, I cannot spend the time at this point
    and am unable to realy spend as much time developing replies to other
    topics here on Apollo.
    The topics and messages I do reply to are off the cuff, written as I go
    and done in less than 3 minutes.
    Sorry if you feel left out, but just because some{of us have busier
    schedules doesn't mean we don't think, aren't capable of it
    and care as much.

    Message: 65459
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 16:25:47

    Actually, she's chicken of open discussions, can't spell worth a damn
    and has no idea of what I write on here...so it just goes to say
    that whatever she thinks is moot.
    I have many things I like to do, one of which is to log into here and other
    boards and get into debates, arguments, all out brawls and open topics...
    she, being female, timid and quite conservative about being in public
    in any form has little to say normaly, keeps pretty much to herself and if
    and when she does have something to say usually only lets it out after
    two hours of intensive gentle coaxing. The only time she would worry
    about where my "pointr" is, is when my stack and registers have
    jumped to an address where I/O is immenent.

    Besides, being the spiritual and physical leader of the household,
    I'd say her being female and all that any response would be
    70% emotional, 20% off topic and 10% logic directed at something else.

    Pfffft!

    Message: 65460
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: News Today
    Subject: J.T. Lives
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 18:11:48

            Mr. James Taranto is live and well and managing editor of 'Street
    News', a Bi-Weekly paper in the BIG APPLE, New York City!

            He is doing better then his old job at the Heritage Foundation in
    D.C., and he now has his own office with WALLs, and get this, it even has a
    closable 'DOOR'....

            Good going James

    Message: 65461
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Old age...Ann?
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 18:24:31

            Women outlive men....  Well, that is true.   However.... Since more
    men are giving up smoking and more women are taking us smoking and drinking,
    the gap is closing fast.   Just keep puffing Ann, and refute all FACTS that
    are presented you as 'rubbish' and you won't have to worry about a man
    shortage.

            In todays news, they said there is more proof that people who smoke
    are KILLING about 3000 non smokers per year in this country.  Lung disease
    is a slow death...  (worse then 3 jolts  of electricity...Ann, who is so
    concerned, UNLESS, her own pleasure is at stake!)

    (Ann, don't you just hate it when smoking and drinking come up?)

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65462
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C.
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 20:02:24

      Yes, logic shows us that there are questions we can't answer yet. Beyond
    that we either don't go for now, or we leave logic behind. It's been nice
    discussing this with you. My position hasn't really changed, but I see the
    questions a little clearer after trying to think up my own explanations for
    them as I did for an earlier message.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65464
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 65453/Bob/Roger
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 21:27:53

    (GRIN!)

    As I've said, I've read the book, and I'm not having any.

    Message: 65465
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/The Book
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 21:32:17

    The book is available within the Phoenix Public Library system. I'm not sure
    if Glendale has it, though. Their selection of Bible-related material
    (Glendale) is quite limited. I'm all too tempted to go out and BUY books and
    DONATE them to Glendale. Only problem is, can't afford it.

    Message: 65466
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT Lives!
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 21:33:55

    He hasn't had a craving for DOMINO'S PIZZA, has he?

    I'll bet he still has the little cap hanging somewhere. Ah, memories.

    Message: 65467
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/Who Wrote
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 21:36:06

    Everyone is trying to dissect and analyze the Bible. Whatever happened to
    reading it and believing it? (GRIN - This is a RHETORICAL question, ROD, and
    does not require an answer.)

    Message: 65468
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/belief
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 21:53:43

    I should have realized we cannot talk to each other, because you are
    asleep and I am awake.

    Message: 65469
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: me
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:14:58

    Hello.

    No, in case there is any confusion, I have not been absent due to anything
    related to Apollo.  That Friday, my cousin arrived, and I was busy
    entertaining her until she left the following Thursday.  After that, I got a
    new job and moved.

    Did I mention that I hate the smell of cat piss?

    Message: 65470
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Black homo bodybuild
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:28:18

    There is one, believe it or not. I mean, everyone gets accused, but he was
    open about it. Pretty good bodybuilder, but some people concentrate on
    things like that.

    Message: 65471
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/bodybuild/fat
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 22:42:25

    On Zak, I have several 300 baud commie modems...Tell him to leave me his
    number.

    On masculine women: Look at Rachel Mclish. You probably don't even know what
    I am talking about. She is shapely, but not masculine...the difference is
    that her shape is firm. And that she can bench press more than many men.

    On me being against fat women(I try not to be against them, yuk yuk):
    No, I am not, I am against ones with a bad attitude. "I'm fat and you have
    to accept me!" No, I don't. Personality is part of determining who is your
    friend, and attitudes like that don't win me.
    If they don't care, fine, but they don't have the right to tell me I have to
    accept them on the basis of a decision they make.
    Most people will do anything to lose weight(fat), except exercising, which
    is what works.

    Message: 65472
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on Daryl
    Date: 05/09/90  Time: 23:47:22

            Let me get this strait.....
            Because Daryl does not buy the garbage that Roger thinks is
    undisputable, Roger thinks it is Daryl that is asleep and only he is wide
    awake.    Typical atheist tactic at belittlement.

            I'm afraid the Bible will be around long after that book Roger is
    reading has rotted and been forgotten.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65473
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Executions
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 00:56:38

    In response to Mike's comment, I don't see where my personal opinion didn't
    come through.  I think our notion of how to put criminals out of the way has
    a lot more to do with satisfying feelings of anger after the event than with
    solving the problem or preventing it in the first place.  I think we're
    kidding ourselves if we think a more brutal death for a criminal is somehow
    a better solution to the problem of crime.  Death is death.

    At the same time, I can't possibly argue against killing criminals if it
    would save lives.  If Bundy's trial in Colorado could have been accomplished
    in a few weeks and ended in a quick death sentence, that would have been far
    better than having him crawl out the ceiling and hoof it down to Florida to
    kill a couple more young women and maim others.  I'd cheerfully pull a
    switch or whatever on him myself if I knew that in the balance I was not
    taking a life, but saving lives.  Some things have a price.

    We must also consider what to do with violent criminals as a whole.  We
    think some killers "deserve" to die because they are "evil", but if a killer
    is genuinely, clinically insane then we keep him alive because he is "sick"
    and presumably "can't help it".  In reality some of the thinking behind this
    may be that we know an insane person is probably in terrible mental pain
    from his sickness and therefore is being punished already, so we feel sorry
    for him.  The criminal we class as "just evil", on the other hand, isn't
    being punished in the same way, so we do it for him.  But it doesn't make
    any difference to the innocent victim whether he is killed by an insane
    person or an "evil" person.  From the point of view of the rest of us they
    are both just "disordered people".  It might actually make more sense to
    kill an incurably insane person rather than have him linger on for forty or
    fifty years of misery at everyone's expense, and to keep a more "sane"
    criminal alive if we knew there was a reasonable chance of reforming him.
    Most of our thinking unfortunately is oriented around punishment rather than
    prevention, or minimizing the total amount of human suffering -- whether to
    the offender or to all the rest of us.

    We should not consider the problem of killers separately from that of other
    criminals.  We say "if you execute a killer then he can't kill again".
    Fine.  But some time last year, a guy was let out on parole in California.
    Nothing unusual about that, except that he was having great difficulty
    finding a place to live and work under supervision in accordance with the
    conditions of his parole.  Why?  Very simple.  His crime was that he had
    kidnapped a fifteen-year-old girl, raped her, and then cut off both her
    arms.  He couldn't find a place to stay because no community wanted him
    there.  I don't blame them.  Yet we don't execute such a person because he
    isn't a killer.  What do we do?  Lock him up at enormous expense?  If we do
    our best to "punish" him -- let's say he got two dozen lashes every day for
    ten years with a cat-o'-nine-tails -- then there comes a time when his
    sentence is over and he is let out because he has "paid his debt to society"
    according to law.  Is he reformed?  Is he hell!  The first thing he's going
    to do is find a victim to work off all that anger for being punished.  My
    daughter, or yours (if you have one)?

    This man was an extreme example, but there are plenty more like him, and
    literally millions of muggers and other people who should never be out on
    the streets.  What do we do with them?

    In response to John Cummings: yes, I too have a very large problem with
    fourteen years of delaying tactics.  A man must have a fair trial that
    brings out all the facts, allows him to present his full defense, and makes
    room for reasonable doubt.  And allows careful review upon appeal.  But once
    it's obvious beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty, it's totally
    irrelevant to invoke rules saying that such-and-such a piece of evidence
    should have been excluded.  We all know he's guilty.  We don't separate out
    issues as we should.  There is a strong argument for limiting the powers of
    police so that we don't develop a police state where we're being snooped on
    and intruded on all the time.  So how do we counter that?  We develop a
    legal system that provides negative reinforcement for police who overstep
    the bounds by saying "if you obtain evidence illegally, we won't give you a
    conviction".  So the killer walks jauntily out the door and maybe kills
    again.  We tie two things together that should never be tied together.  If a
    policeman obtained evidence illegally, *and* someone was proven guilty of a
    crime as a result, those are two separate issues.  We know that the
    defendant is guilty, and that the policeman is also guilty.  Two separate
    facts.  We should deal with the criminal as a criminal, and also,
    separately, discipline or fire the policeman for violating our sacred
    freedoms.

    And half these delaying tactics have nothing whatever to do with whether the
    defendant was guilty, but whether his execution would prejudice someone
    else's chances of survival or offend someone else's sensibilities.  Several
    of these death row guys were just anxious to get it all over, starting with
    Gary Gilmore.  Prolonging the agony is totally absurd.

    Who is responsible for all this mess?  You can blame the lawyers, and indeed
    lawyers are largely responsible and have a strong vested interest in keeping
    the system at status quo.  But I think that's an oversimplification.
    Rather, I would blame the "lawyer philosophy" that exists among the people
    at large.  What I mean by that is that everything in life is treated as a
    competition; you either win or lose.  You win by hitting someone else harder
    than you get hit yourself.  If you lose one round, you go out and hit
    somobody else weaker than yourself.  Then he hits someone else back.  It's
    all a stupid game based on contention.  Lawyers make their living out of
    contention, but they are just the epitome of a certain spirit in society.
    Notice how many divorce lawyers there are, and how few of them are into
    divorce *mediation*?  Does anybody even know what that is?  How much human
    energy is wasted on fighting other people?  Nobody will get together and
    find a cooperative solution.  Lawyers play a game called "let's you and him
    fight", and the rest of us fall for it.  Lawyers are largely into power.
    And what's the most popular professional background for being a legislator?
    No wonder human society is so fucked up.

    Message: 65478
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Men and Women
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 01:04:13

    I wouldn't buy the idea that there is NO innate difference between males and
    females; only that the difference is less than one might think.

    For most of recorded history it was believed that people are the way they
    are because they were born that way.  Then in the twentieth century came the
    realization that people are profoundly affected by the environment in which
    they are raised.  That realization is a true one, but the trouble was that
    in the sixties lots of idealists jumped onto this bandwagon and said
    "perhaps ALL the differences between people are environmentally induced."
    People love an easy solution.  Besides, that idea attracted all the social
    engineers who said to themselves "if we just change the environment around a
    bit, we can change the whole world.  Hooray!"

    I think it's true that if the whole human environment and the ways many kids
    are raised *could* be changed, we really could change the whole world.  But
    that's a whole lot easier said than done -- which was the main problem in
    the first place; so I won't get into that here.  What I would emphasize,
    though, is that "males" and "females" are the product both of their
    environment and of real innate differences.

    I can't deny that boys and girls get socialized differently.  One vivid
    memory that sticks out in my mind is of a company picnic where somebody
    brought along their son, aged around five.  A guy came up to him in a
    friendly way and said "Hi Fred (or Dave, or Jason, or whatever his name
    was), are ya TOUGH?"  Perfect example of how boys (or girls) are shown what
    is expected of them and what they are supposed to live up to.  Of course if
    the baby wears blue, we give him a truck to play with; and if the baby wears
    pink, we give her a doll.

    I always get a chuckle out of this, because you can get a girl very
    interested in a hard science -- chemistry -- if you call it "cooking" and
    disguise it as a "homemaking skill".  It's no less a science.  And you can
    get a boy very interested in dolls if you give the doll a good solid
    masculine name like "My Buddy", or -- more traditionally -- "G.I.Joe".  It
    isn't culturally biased either.  In England you buy a little fellow called
    "Action Man".  Instead of brushing his hair and dressing him in a "beach"
    outfit or a "disco" outfit like Barbie, you dress him in jungle camouflage
    or Arctic combat gear.  It's the same caring and grooming procedures.  Only
    Barbie has an "intimate" relationship -- with Ken.  Action Man relates only
    to his buddies.  But if a relationship among men who fight together and
    trust one another for life support isn't close, I don't know what is.  It
    just isn't sexual.

    But studies clearly show that boys tend to be more aggressive in play from a
    very young age, and girls tend to be more coooperative.  Fact is, males are
    more competitive and motivated toward domination of the physical world;
    females are more cooperative and motivated toward the development of
    supportive relationships.  Only (a) nobody can get by with just one
    motivation or the other; sometimes you have to compete, sometimes you have
    to cooperate; (b) nobody is exclusively one way or the other; and (c) people
    of either sex are different in the amount of these motivations they have.
    Also, men and women tend to have a lot of the same underlying skills; they
    just differ in their motivations to use and develop them.  I remember a
    girlfriend of mine who had trouble figuring out how to make her sewing
    machine work.  I gave her some help with it, and she said "I didn't think
    men were interested in sewing machines".  To her, it was something for
    making dresses with.  To me, it was a problem in engineering.  I didn't see
    any reason why we shouldn't put those two motivations together to achieve
    something.  Especially when she looked nice in that dress.

    Modern research strongly suggests that differences between "masculine" and
    "feminine" motivations is the result of different brain center development
    stimulated by hormonal effects in utero.  When this process goes wrong, it
    may result in different sexual preference or in a different set of
    motivations that are translated as a "gender identity" at odds with the
    physical body.  From a personal point of view, if I had slowly developed an
    interest in the opposite sex that matured throughout childhood, I might have
    bought the notion that I was "raised" to be heterosexual.  When a sudden
    intense interest in girls developed around the age of twelve, I have to say
    that it was chemically stimulated.  It has to be "hardware", or at the very
    least, "firmware".  (And before you come up with any funny remarks...)

    One guy was a victim of the feminist thinking of the 60s and 70s that said
    being male or female was just a matter of how you were raised.  He was born
    an identical twin around 1963, and lost his penis to a bungled circumcision.
    Dr. John Money, a well-known researcher in the gender field, was then under
    the sway of the idea that gender was solely a result of how a child was
    raised.  Because it was difficult to reconstruct a penis, he recommended
    that the boy undergo a sex change operation and be raised as a girl, which
    was duly done.  This poor kid was the darling of the feminist movement all
    through the 70s.  They couldn't resist referring to his case in any book
    that "proved" there was no innate difference between males and females.  But
    when puberty hit him, it was obvious that he wasn't going to make it as a
    female. He was the world's first artificially created transsexual.

    It is often said that "men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get
    love".  I think this is more or less bullcrap.  I think men pay more
    attention to their more prominent motivation, which is sexual conquest, and
    women pay more attention to their more prominent motivation, which is the
    maintenance of a relationship, but both of them are in some sense hiding
    that secondary and complementary need that they have.  Men hide their needs
    for relationships because dependencies aren't considered masculine, and also
    they hide their emotions partly because they are taught to but also because
    they can function without them more readily than women can.   That men need
    relationships is obvious from the surveys showing that married men with
    families are happier than those without.  Women often hide their needs for
    sex because many men don't seem to approve, and approval is necessary to
    maintain a relationship.  It's a question of which comes first.

    The main point in my mind is that men and women have differences, but
    society wants to focus those differences so that men are all one way and
    women all the other way.  This was OK in a primitive hunter-gatherer society
    where clear-cut roles were appropriate, but in today's complex technological
    world a mix of "masculine" and "feminine" skills fits in better; and in fact
    "feminine" skills, which are stronger on the communications side, have
    become more valuable.  Time to reevaluate and stop pushing people into rigid
    categories.

    Message: 65483
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Absence
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 01:11:20

    I probably won't be on this system for the better part of a month, so I'm
    sorry if I can't reply to any posts.  I'll be in places where a call to
    Apollo is L-O-O-O-N-G distance, besides not having a modem with me.  Just
    thought I'd better mention this to forestall all the usual claims that
    "someone on the board p!$$ed him off, and he went away in a huff."

    Please arrange to get in touch with me URGENTLY if anyone succeeds in
    proving logically and irrefutably, to the satisfaction of all on board, that
    there IS a God, or alternatively that there definitely isn't.  If either of
    those events happens, I might need to revise my life plan in a hurry,

         - Gordon

    Message: 65484
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T.
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 05:49:51

     I think that Roger has reached the point in his life where he will believe
    anything and anybody, as long as they refute what God hath said.
    How sad. Other than that, he's really a pretty nice guy too.

    Message: 65485
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/65467
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 05:55:03

    AMEN!!!

    Message: 65486
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/65468
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 07:16:39

    Gee, po' po' me. I'm just a po' igno'int li'l Crishchun. Ain't no hep fo'
    me. I dunt b'leeve whut you b'leeve so I is jus' a dum bunny.

    I guess this means that I have more free time to use constructively.

    Message: 65487
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on women
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:03:19

    Your typical male ego is showing. My point entirely! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65488
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger #65452
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:19:48

    How refreshing you are - a man, yet you are not playing some role to prove
    it. I say your more of a man! Your kind of thinking is what women want in
    their husbands, live-ins, etc. etc. It's rare, but you prove it is at least
    there.
    I've often wondered why men will dedicate themselves to their job/career and
    not really enjoy the fruits! They seem to use it for an excuse to let the
    wife raise the kids, whether she works or not, to spend long hours away from
    their homes they worked so hard for and to not have time to live while
    alive! When retirement come, they have been so wrapped up in their work,
    they just keel over and die soon afterwards. I read not too long ago that
    even if both the men and women work in a family, the woman does nmost of the
    raising and housework! Men simple refuse to help all that much, so the
    woman's career never gets off the ground really because she can't dedicate
    herself like her husband can. How nice it would be if both of them partook
    of equal responsibilities on the home front and took their career's less
    seriously as only a means of making a living, not a life style. I never
    understood why people had children and let someone else raise them or bought
    a house no one is ever in.
    Society is now putting the presures on women to make a career - to think of
    themselves first, etc. I wonder how they figure that is going to help?!
    Pretty soon, why get married in the first place? It's all very complicated.
                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65489
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on Christians
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:31:35

    Sure, it was the Christians thrown to the lions, but remember, the Roman's
    thought them criminals of the state, the empire!
    Hey, I just might have solved a major problem here - take all murders, put
    them in an arena - let the people pay for the tickets to gather revenue for
    the state, put a sword in their hands and let them have a go at the lions!
    (the lions would out count the criminals 5 to 1) If said criminal came out
    alive, he was proven innocent and set free! All of this would be a boom to
    this state alone and would ...
    1. Ease the tax payers burdens with the money from the tickets and help pay
    off the expense of the arena.
    2. The sword makers could hire more people, thus the job market would be
    healthier.
    3. Not to mention all the salaries paid out to the construction workers on
    the arena.
    4. No costly trials would be held, thus holding up our courts.
    5. No lawyer's fees paid by the state.
    6. No prison cost - no new prisons - no electric chairs, hanging trees, etc.
    7. All our prisons could be made into museums and people could pay to tour
    them, thus more money in our gov. coffers.
    8. All the lions, tigers, big cats, meat eating animals at the zoos would be
    fed the prisoners that lost, thus, less expense.
    See? Why not? All kidding aside - I find this less offensive than an
    electric chair execution. It is just about a civilized. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65490
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on men
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:40:48

    Sure, you guys are in charge and look where it's gotten us! Wars and more
    wars. Nuclear accidents - crooked politicians - AIDS (oh, that one will
    cause controversy!) - high taxes - high insurance rates - oil spills - rain
    forrest distruction - war between the states (Civil) - war between countries
    - war within families - war between brothers - mass murderers (mostly men) -
    rapes - revenge - gangs (mostly men) - spies - incest (mostly men) -
    perversion (mostly men) - bank robbers - computer hackers - have I left
    anything out? Now I know women have been involved in a lot of this but it is
    rare compared to men being involved. Surely you men can see that. Right? Are
    you beginning to perhaps see my point? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65491
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:46:17

    No I don't hate it when smoking and drinking come up. You know my opinion on
    them both - it hasn't changed.
    What I do dislike, is you evading the subject of the men/woman thing and
    bringing in the smoking subject, thus avoiding the issue.
    You failed to mention that men and women that smoke and drink equally, the
    women are still living longer. I personally don't think these things have as
    much to do with long living as does the stress in a person's life. If women
    enter in to a career like men do and take it as seriously, then you will see
    the gap close and fast. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65492
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cliff on sleep
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 08:56:37

    All right answer me this, O sleeper. Why is it so important to you that
    the Bible was not written by several different groups ? After all, the NT
    has at least 5 different authors:the four Gospel writers and Paul, and
    perhaps Peter. Why is it so disturbing to study the One book you all claim
    to admire so much and discover its origins ? Why ?

    Message: 65494
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 09:03:11

    If you ever want to discuss things in a rational manner, I suggest you
    wake up and look around you. What is it about you "Christians" who revel
    in sarcasm ? You refuse to even CONSIDER evidence, so you make fun of it and
    ridicule those who are thinkers. Well, Mr. Daryl Smartypants Sleepwalker,
    tell me WHY it is so bothersome to you to even CONSIDER that there are
    several authors in the OT pentateuch ?

    Message: 65495
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: men/women
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 09:05:40

    My wife and I both work. We raised two children that way. I hate to do
    clothes and washing and ironing, so I don't do that. I did, however, make
    meals and wash dishes with the kids when my wife was off working. It was
    a good time for me and them. I got to know them pretty well, and we still
    have a lot of laughs and fond memories of the stuff we did together.

    Message: 65496
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: bible origins
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 09:16:50

    OK, the book _Who Wrote the Bible_ summarizes the evolution of the OT  Bible
    this way:
    "J" version of "torah" exists post-Egypt in Judah
    "E" version of "torah" exists post-Egypt in Israel
    Assyria conquers Israel, and refugees enter Judah with "E" version
    "J" and "E" versions merged
    "P" version written during reign of Hezekiah
    "D1" version written during reign of Josiah
    "D2" version written after exile to Babylon in Egypt by Jeremiah
    Ezra? combines JE, P, and D1;D1 versions into OT as we know it today using
    the "P" version as the structure for the OT after the return of the Hebrews
    to Judah from Babylon.

    Now, there is a way to disprove this theory.If it can be shown that an OT
    version of the first 4 books existed prior to Ezra (post-exilic), then the
    theory would be disproved. If, on the on the other hand, the J, E, or JE, P
    and D documents could be found as separate documents, that would confirm the
    theory.

    Message: 65497
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger/post 65492
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 10:09:24

            Where, oh where did you get the opinion that it was important to me
    that the Bible was not written by several different groups?  I thought you
    claimed to know my BRAND of Christianity?  I happen to be one of them that
    accept the Bible was witten by man, but inspired by God.  And whenever there
    is man involved, there will be some error.  Like Kings having parts they did
    not like removed from the text.  Changes in interpretation, and so on.
            But you on the other hand have not shown me any proof of anything,
    just someone's theory on how they see the Bible being assembled.  This does
    not mean I don't want to know the Bibles origin, but I am not going to
    change my life style because someone wanted to write and sell a book.

            You never did tell me my brand of Christianity, Roger?

                                    clif-

    Message: 65498
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 10:36:22

    It's because he can't

    Message: 65499
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 10:37:28

    Typical female..always blaming the male for everything.
    You brought up all those points, none of which prove anything,
    especially if you consider who "brought them up" in the first place eh?
    Mommy!

    Message: 65500
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 12:34:19

      I side with Gordon Little on this men/women development arguement, but I
    would like to mention that all the evils Ann attributes to men can be blamed
    on women just as easily. The majority of all that men do wrong could be said
    to stem from the treatment they receive from women if you want to get into a
    useless and vindictive battle of finger pointing. Why don't men take care of
    the kids? They may feel that the children were forced upon them before they
    were ready. A woman's desire to have children is something that she often
    won't have denied. Why do men start wars and murder each other for no
    reason? Maybe its because someone tried to train them to urinate sitting
    down, just because it would be nicer for those who have no choice but to do
    so. I could go on and on. AIDS may be spread largely because women have
    turned a lot of men into homosexuals. I am not claiming any of these things
    to be true, and I happen to hold women to be one of the very best reasons
    for living, I just wanted to counter Ann's diatribe against men with an
    example of the same type.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65501
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: cliff/lifestyle
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 13:25:28

    I have not asked you to change your lifestyle. This whole chain is about
    the origin of the Bible. Instead I get a lot of flak about lifestyle bible
    bashing and so-forth, without any constructive responses. So, I take it that
    it doesn't matter to you how the Bible came to be formed, or the interesting
    detective work that was done ? If that's the case, then I suspect there will
    be a lot of silence on this subject (until I come up with some of the
    implications of the JEPD (R) theory.

    heh. heh. BTW, your brand of Christianity is only one variant on a whole
    spectrum of absolute literalists who believe the world began in 4004 BC
    (fairly rare these days, but more common when I was a kid) to evolution gap
    theorists who suggest that God filled the gaps between species.

    Message: 65502
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: women/homosex
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 13:26:50

    What ? How do women turn men into homosexuals ? I've gotta hear this.

    Message: 65503
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mikie on bringing ..
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 14:02:01

    ... up the kids! Ah - lets look at that one. Sure, mom stays home and raises
    the kids (they used to anyway) but who is really in charge? Everyone knows
    the old saying 'a man is the head of the household' don't they? Most
    punishments are doled out by the father - he instructs his wife not to make
    a sissy outta his boy - he usually has the purse strings in hand too - he
    comes home from work and plops down with beer hin hand in front of the TV
    set - maybe he grunts a few grunts during the course of the evening and then
    retires - starts up all over the next day. Then comes the week end - he's
    still glued to the TV set, only this times it's football, baseball, basket
    ball, etc. etc. Now who is the role model for the son? How do you suppose
    he'll grow up? He certainly won't grow up to be like mom - she's too busy
    serving and cleaning up after Pop. If she's got little girls, she has them
    in the kitchen teaching them to cook and sew for their future couch
    potatoes. This scenaro might be a tad over done in this day and age, but
    I've seen this very same thing in many families.
    I don't know of one mother who raised her son to be a war monger - un-neat
    - un-clean - an adulterer - a foul mouth individual - a macho dude. Do you?
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65504
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean on women
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 14:08:32

    Yes - I could also turn things around and put mucho blame on women too.
    Maybe in other posts - but right now we're talking about men.
    You think women are turning men into homos? I say, men are turning women to
    the viberators!
    AIDs is spread because of men only. They started it regardless of what they
    call themselves. Anyone that is promiscuious (sp?) runs the risk of
    contacting and giving AIDS and other horrors. Women are not excluded either.
    But men are at fault for starting it!
    All of this could be avoided if the sexes understood each other - at least
    begin to. I find that most women want to - try hard to, men do not! It's a
    macho thing with them - don't cry - don't let out your emotions because
    you'll be less of a man, etc. etc. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65505
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger last
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 14:10:48

    I think Dean hinted that women perhaps 'de-ball' men somehow and they turn
    to other men because of it! Just my guess - wish he'd elaborate more.
    I can sure tell you why women turn to the viberators and other women though.
    (and not be a lisbian either) -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65506
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 15:34:51

    Re:  "Ease the tax payers burdens with the money from the tickets and help
    pay off the expense of the arena."

    I know your post was tongue in cheek, but sad to say, it makes more sense
    than the nonsesnse I hear coming from Washington.

    Message: 65507
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 15:36:16

    Re:  "high taxes - high insurance rates - oil spills - rain
    forrest distruction - war between the states"

    That's cause you women have corrupted us.

    Message: 65508
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Women
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 16:28:30

      As I said in the post in question, it was not to be taken seriously, but
    as an example of how either sex can be blamed if one wants to claim victim
    status for the other. The case for women causing homosexuality among men
    would include such things as sissifying (sic?) them as children, taunting
    them as adolescents, and intimidating or rejecting them as young adults. The
    blame could just as easily be placed on the way the men handle these things
    instead, but the arguments are there for someone who wants to use them.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65509
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 16:30:52

      Why do women turn to vibrators and other women? What does your not being a
    lisbian have to do with it? Is there something going on in Lisbon that I am
    not aware of?
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65510
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pat Robertson
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 16:46:16

      I happened to catch some of his show on cable TV last night. He is
    convinced that the U.S. is entering a phase where Christians will be treated
    exactly as Jews were treated in Nazi Germany. He showed religious protesters
    being pulled away from a protest outside an abortion clinic and then ran
    photos of Jews hanging from posts. As the 1-800 number flashed on the screen
    for you to pledge your donations every few seconds, Pat and his support
    staff detailed every atrocity purpetrated on the Jews and predicted that it
    would happen to Christians here within a few years if they did not raise
    whatever amount of money it was that they had determined would halt the tide
    of Christian blood lust amok in the land.
      They were particularly incensed that a couple of major newspapers had
    carried an article entitled: Evangelical Christians, You Have No Right To
    Erase The Line Between Church And State (or something to that effect). Pat
    declared that this was absolute proof that Christians would soon be unable
    to hold jobs in this country without hiding their faith, and that the whole
    gamut of Nazi atrocities was next to implemented by the media elite. That
    call to uphold the separation of church and state was likened to the
    campaign by the Nazis to cast Jews as subhuman creatures.z{
      Pat plays so fast and loose  with the facts that it is hard to picture the
    people who would fall for this and send money.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65511
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 16:51:35

    Re:  "I am reading a fascinating book called  _Who Wrote The Bible_ by
    Friedman. Friedman "proves" that the first four books of the Bible: Genesis,
    Exodus,"

    Re:  "I may have said the evidence was compelling, but I am not sure I said
    "proof"."

    As usual Roger, you don't know what you say.  You did say that Friedman
    proves it.  And your tactic of denying what you say, put downs, and name
    calling is really tacky.  You may have a lot of knowledge, but you sure lack
    in the wisdom department.  When you can reply in a civil manner and drop
    your sanctimonious prattle, I may reply to your arguments in the depth you
    seem to demand.  Until then, StuffIt!

    Message: 65512
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger on Bible
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 17:49:56

            Of course I would like to know how the Bible came to be formed. I am
    reading your posts with interest, but I take what you have to say with a
    grain of salt.   Just because some writer out to sell books did some
    detective work reading other author's books who were out to make a buck,
    does not prove a thing.  If this writer is out to disprove the Bible, the
    only data he is going to use is what goes along with his ideals.   I am
    afraid the real authors of the Bible are not avialable for verification, so
    I have to assume todays writing are theories.

            As I understand the Bible, it is God's word.... BUT... Men have
    meddled with the Bible for so many centuries, Kings have had parts removed
    they did not like, It has been translated down into English from words that
    may have not had 100% the same meaning as they did when written.  Heck, even
    English words mean different things today then even 100 years ago, so, it
    *MAY* seem a little confusing.

            The bottom line is "I believe the message of the Bible is true, and
    is the word of God"... even if you can in some cases get little
    contradictions if you work at it.

            You want to talk 'THEORY'... I will listen...  I am awake however,
    so don't try to tell me 'theory' is 'fact' because then you will lose
    credibility real fast.

    Message: 65513
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 18:02:02

            I don't know one father who raised his son to be a war monger -
    un-neat - un-clean - an adulterer - a foul mouth individual - a macho dude,
    and I come from a Navy family, so you would think I see a lot of that, but I
    never did!  I even HATE beer and I am not that fond of football games
    either.   It's like me saying ALL women watch soaps!  A lable that is not
    true.

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65514
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 18:29:08

    You mean you actually switched the channel on your TV set and watched
    that guy rant?
    Geez, I'ma Christian and I can't stomach evangelical diatribe on TV
    for more than 2 seconds.
    I have yet to change the channel and see one evangelist on TV talk
    to the people like they were capable individuals with an average IQ.
    It always seems like they're trying to out-shout some hidden voice
    in the audience and dance around to keep your eyes on him while
    you wonder his sanity. Ulch. The 700 club is even worse.
    From the pits of TV Evangelist Hell where such creatures like Tammy
    Fae and company were spawned. Have you seen the hair-dos some of these
    creatures wear? How about them there $900.00 cuff links and that
    ego-stuffed shirt from Renee's in Holywood? I saw, witnessed, glared
    in disbelief as some Van Gough nightmare in sequins mummified the audience
    by one glance of her medusa make-up (dont smile too hard honey, your
    face will fall off). The vacuumed beehive-n-starch hair style shook
    dazzlingly as they begged to help poor Hodgey in his mudhole in India.
    Yep, I have a fairly healthy imagination..it helps me with my cartoons
    I draw...but to imagine the complete buffoon who would actually send
    money to these geeks is indeed boggling. Then again...its just as
    boggling to live in a state where Rose Mofford is Govenor and cops
    get away with murder.

    Message: 65515
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 20:32:49

    What's your problem, Bob ? I am only human. I am not divinely inspired
    as others may seem to be. It is clear that this line of reasoning
    bothers you. Would you like to tell me why, rather than "stuff it?".
    Do you feel that the Friedman case, which is compelling, and arguably,
    proves the case for the JEDP(R) formation of the bible threatens your
    faith ? First, faith in what ? That the bible is a  book filled with
     absolutely true things because God wrote the book ? Well, you can
    still have that faith, because the various authors "J", "E", "P", and
    "D" and the redactor (R), could have been inspired by God. So, that doesn't
    change. Is it that our understanding of what the Bible is and what it
    means and what the times were like when the Bible was written detracts
    from its meaning ? If so, then I suggest you throw away all your Bible
    commentaries for they attempt to explain and throw light on this wonderful
    book. All I have received is hateful contempt from you folks, rather than
    thoughtful responses. I feel sorry for you. I hope you can find peace
    somewhere, for it is clear that you don't have it from your current
    religion.

    Message: 65516
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: friedman
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 20:41:08

    Let me quote Friedman in his conclusion: "The seeds of that reconciliation
    [of the clergy and the bible scholars] were present from the days of the
    earliest investigators. Simply put, the question all along was not "Who
    inspired the Bible?" or "Who revealed the Bible?" The question was only
    which human beings actually composed it. Whether they did so at divine
    direction, dictation, or inspiration was always a matter of faith. Joseph
    Ben Eliezer Bonfilss, perhaps the first Jewish scholar to sy outright
    about{a verse of the Torah, 'Moses did not write this," made this point
    six hundred years ago. He said:

       ...insofar as we are to believe in the received words and in the
       words of prophecy, what is it to me if Moses wrote it or if another
       prophet wrote it, since the words of all of them are truth and
       through prophecy "

    Message: 65517
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: peek a boo
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 22:11:55

         I'm calling from a friend's computer.  I probably won't be able to get
    on at my own residence for quite a while.  If Hans Glans would like to give
    me his phone number, I would be happy to call him and borrow his modem.
         On the recent messages:  A swirl of emotional B.S. and half-decent
    thinking, all jumbled up into hundreds of messages.  Ouch.  (Oh, and some
    full-decent thinking too.)
         Thumbs up to Gordon Little, whose messages offer a plateau of quality
    in a sea of murky stale waters.  Thumbs up also to Dean for not descending
    to ad hominem in the religious debate about faith, even though everybody
    else was, and giving a nice print-outable analysis of Thomas Acquinas's
    argument for the existence of God.  Thumbs down to Mike Carter for saying
    "typical woman" too many times.  I guess I'm all out of thumbs.  (I actually
    owe an extra one.)
         Zak

    Message: 65518
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Arizona Now & Then
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 22:23:01

         Arizona Now & Then is a local show that runs on cable channel 6 in
    Glendale and 32 in Phoenix.  It's a talk-show format program, a half hour
    long, and is shown on Tuesday nights at 7:00.  Ron Bellus, Ev Mecham's
    ex-press secretary, hosts.
         The show is of a basic variety nature, though it tends to focus on
    current affairs in Arizona and Arizona history.  Recent shows have covered
    the torture of the Indians (by a lady who studies Arizonan Indian history
    and paints depictions of some of the things that have happened); Navajo code
    talkers (used to fool the Japanese in wartime); the Mormon trails running
    through lower Arizona (our guest was an auto mechanics teacher who has
    extensively studied the trails and even built a special dune buggy to ride
    along the trail in); Rusty McCabe - storyteller, who tells Western-style
    folk tales to kids (on this particular program we had a problem with a
    little girl who wouldn't stop picking her nose); and, as a final example,
    guest Michael El-Legion, a UFO/newage/consipiracy theory fellow was a guest,
    who gave arguments for government coverups of UFOs, etc.
         Obviously, the show doesn't subscribe to one basic mold, and will cover
    any topic as long as it's interesting and (hopefully) enlightening.  In the
    future we are planning to get the gubernatorial candidates on and ask
    questions about where they stand on the issues.

         My question is:  does anybody out there have any ideas for
    guests/shows?  I am scouting for possible talent for future shows.  If you
    know somebody who is involved in something interesting and who is
    serious, enthusiastic, and knowledgeable about it, please let me know via
    phone or mail.

         Possible shows I have considered:

         -- a show featuring Sandy in which she presents all her data in support
    of her theory of a corrupt, trying-to-subvert-children's-morals educational
    system in Arizona.  (with no negative bias from me to get in the way)
         -- a show featuring Cliff in which he talks about Apollo, the world's
    longest running BBS.  Or something along the lines of getting BBS people to
    come on and relate stories about the BBS, arguments, etc.
         -- a show about gun ownership and safety courses in Arizona, the
    positions on the laws, etc.
         -- a show featuring local jugglers (perhaps even juggling dogs).
         -- a show (or shows) in which local skeptics come on and present
    evidence debunking local pseudo-science people (such as El-Legion).
         -- a show featuring members of the local libertarian party, and their
    views on Arizona issues.

                       ...just some ideas.  Please let me know what you think.
    Thanks
      Zak

    Message: 65520
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Stun Guns
    Date: 05/10/90  Time: 23:08:04

    Earlier this evening there was a discussion on KFYI about stun guns
    and their use in this MOBILE bruhuha.
    Some folks called up and stated that stun guns leave marks and or
    burns. Others stated they don't.
    Besides obvious external physical marks that may or may not be left by
    a stun gun, the high voltage delivered from these devices is enough
    to totally overload your nervous system in the area hit.

    I've been indirectly and directly zapped by all kinds of voltages and
    varying current deliveries. In my line of work it's expected.
    One thing to bear in mind if you are considering trying out getting
    stunned with one of these devices is to remember that these are
    specially designed. I just hate it when radio anouncers get into
    the generalization and figure all stun guns will or will not give certain
    effects.
    High voltage of any kind is a very dangerous form of power to mess with.
    What a bunch of idiots on the radio. It's not always what the current or
    voltage will do, it's your REACTION from it. IE, jerking hand away or
    any automatic nervous system response to danger such as heat etc.
    You can injure or be injured from the result of it. Ask my old instructor,
    he's less three teeth from my elbow.
    ;-)

    Message: 65521
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: sysop
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 00:17:05

    from jeff lochansky
    to sysop
    thank you for the information about your BBS,it was appreciated
    you are right, i am new to the computer world, and folks like you
    make it a lot easier for me to learn. the reason my lines where
    so short, is because i was using a program i had written myself
    i work with a coco3 so i could view only 32 lines. also my parameters
    where not set right, and i had no way to change them. i now have a
    version of ultimate(term) and it works like a charm as you can see.
    please exuse my typing, like i said i never even owned a typwriter
    i hope that i'll get better soon. i hope  to also be able to join
    your BBS as a member, next payday, i think apollo is just great
    you are doing a fine job keep up the great work
    thank you again
    jeff lochansky

    Message: 65522
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: STUN GUNS
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 02:14:54

         From my experience, a person is totally immobilized physically when the
    juice is on.  After effects were small welts where the current entered the
    body (even through a shirt).  These welts went away after two or three days.
         Is the gov't trying to ban stun guns, or what?

    Message: 65523
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Scriptural authority
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 05:55:29

     Let me turn Roger's question around, and ask the "two Ms" (Mann &
    Middleton) why it is so vitally important to them to attack the authenticity
    and inspiration of Scripture in order to prove or disprove anything? This is
    the ploy of Secular Humanism, if it feels good, do it, modernistic religious
    philosophy,not of believing people seeking truth.
     God Himself, who is the embodiment of all truth, inspired every word and
    every thought that went into the Bible. THose words were written by holy
    men, as they were inspired by the Spirit of God. It has long been accepted
    that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament, with the rest being
    written by those to whom credit has been given, (major & minor prophets,
    etc.) THe New Testament was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and
    probably Peter. The book of Acts was written by Luke, and Revelation by the
    same John who wrote the Gospel that carries his name.
     THis has been the position of Bible scholars for centuries. Why has it all
    of a sudden become necessary to challenge this, and in so doing, challenge
    and attack the very heart of the Scripture, the divine inspiration of all
    that is written? Why this urge to dissect, alphabetize and modernize that
    which is eternal (remember, "My Word shall NEVER pass away."?).
     If you are uncomfortable with that which God hath said, perhaps it is time
    for self examination rather than trying to water down or change God's Word.

    Message: 65524
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 06:02:35

     According to your last statement on the subject, am I to interpret this as
    your opinion that women are not un-neat, un-clean, adulterous or
    foul-mouthed?
     If you really believe that, you haven't met too many women, have you?
     Every adulterous male has to have a partner in crime, cleanliness is
    certainly not a sexist feature, nor is uncleanliness, and some of the
    foulest, most vulgar people I have met, even after serving in the Navy, have
    been women.
     Methinks you are trying to stretch your points to the breaking point Annie.

    Message: 65525
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 08:25:39

    There are no points to be made.
    This discussion turned from something about what someone said into
    its current disguise.
    Annie wishes us to beleive that all the evil of the world is
    perpetrated by men and that unclenliness is only to be found with
    or around men. Before, and on this board, Annie wanted you to beleive
    all the evil, vile and wrongdoing in the world is perpetrated by
    Christians.

    Next week;

    All the evil, inclean and vulgar aspects of life will be blamed on
    PeeWee Herman fans.

    Message: 65526
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 08:40:42

    Re: "That's cause you women have corrupted us."

    Yeah - VIVA LA CORRUPTION! I'm a pro at that. Just ask Dandy SAndy if that
    isn't true. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65527
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 08:42:12

    Please explain how a mother goes about 'sissifying' a son? Just courious as
    to what you mean. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65528
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean on turning
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 08:55:40

    Women turn to viberators and other women because of all this
    misunderstanding between the sexes. Unfortunately, more and more women are
    finding they can live without a man - I.E. they now have good paying
    careers, holding their own, etc. Sexual satisfaction can be found else
    where. They ask themselves, "why put up with the crap?" What crap? Machoism
    for one - cheating for another. Women really do not understand either of
    those deep down. Most women look for a life long companion - she usually
    gets a man that won't communicate or show emotions or else he feels he's
    being un-manly. Yet, a man looks for these qualities in a companion - one
    that is considerate, communicative, interesting, interested, etc. etc.
    Please believe that I am not putting all men in these catagories. OR women
    either.
    As far as turning to other women without being a Les. ..... that's an easy
    one. She knows another women will understand her. They will also both know
    what men are like and usualy both will want no part of them because of
    something that's happened - a broken marriage - cheating by the man - abuse
    - abondonment - finding out he's a transvestite, etc. Hahahahaha.
     BTW - why is it that a man that dresses like a women has such a name as a
    'Transvestite' and when a women dresses like a man, she's right in style?
    Women's clothes certainly are more comfortable for the most part. Again,
    just curious. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65529
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff #65513
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 08:57:16

    Then Sandy is indeed a lucky lady - and that's NOT sarcasum. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65530
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on unclean
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 09:09:37

    As I said, I wasn't talking about all men or women.
    Yes, I will admit that the most foul mouthed people in general have been
    women and this has been going on for a very long time - not just lately. But
    it seems that now it's so exceptable for women to be so - they have
    surpassed the men by far if they are so inclined to use profanity.
    Even I am not beyond that - I remember way back in the 50s when it wasn't
    exceptable for women to even say 'hell and damn' - had this girlfriend named
    Betty and no two fouler mouths could be found! Of course, supposedly being
    proper ladies, no one heard us but us!
    Men for the most part commit adultry - but alas, women are catching up. I do
    not look at that as progress! But this is what I mean about the sexes not
    understanding each other - it just is getting worse.
    Men are the war monger period! They teach their sons that in many ways -
    they encourage them to go all out in sports - win at all cost, be a man!
    Don't be a wimp! (what ever that means!) They also start and fight in wars.
    Women do not. Under the guise of patriotism, they send them off to the wars
    they started. Women do not want their sons going to wars, period!
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65531
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/last
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 09:11:11

    I'll go along with blaming all the Pee Wee Herman fans. But then again,
    their probably all men fans! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65532
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger on hateful
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 10:01:24

            Re:  "All I have received is hateful contempt from you folks,...."

            Gee Roger, I thought I said "I am reading your posts with interest"
    but wished you would call it what it is 'theory' and not proven 'fact'.
    Just where was my 'hateful contempt'?  If you took it as such, SORRY!
    I am a clutz when it comes to English.... maybe I over worded my opinion?

            Keep up your search for truth...just maybe you will find it.

                                    clif-

    Message: 65533
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: All this
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 11:17:27

    I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS!!!

    Message: 65534
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: cliff/contempt
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 11:26:37

    I was not including you in the "you folks" The "you folks" are
    Bob Thornburg, Mike Carter, Paul Savage. We'll have to start a
    discussion on theory, proof, and fact. But not now.

    Message: 65535
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on "acceptance"
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 13:11:21

    When kids are small, they "accept" the "fact" that Santa brings presents,
    etc.  Why should it ever be necessary to learn the truth?  Do kids often not
    seek out the truth behind the "accepted facts" ?  This is what
    historical/biblical research is all about -- a better understanding o{
    Truth, not just the acceptance of tradition.

    Message: 65536
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog on "acceptance"
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 13:56:47

            Re: Last post....  "This is what historical/biblical research is all
    about..."

            I accept that Dog... BUT, when Atheist have their way, you will find
    'religion' not even mentioned in public schools as they have won the right
    to ram their evolution theory down on young school children as "accepted
    facts".  So, what happens to your better understanding of Truth then?

            I see, it is alright when it is the other way around... yup!?

                                    clif-

    Message: 65537
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike C/700 Club
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 15:08:14

      Actually I didn't switch the channel to it in this case. Something more
    palatable had been on that channel earlier and the TV was left running for a
    while as I was busy with my computer and payed it no mind. Later I saw the
    incredible spectacle of recycled WWII propaganda begin and started to watch
    it to see where it was leading.
       I do watch a religious program intentionally once in a while. Some
    preachers have always been very entertaining to hear, and there were some
    aspects of the religious right I agreed with enough to pay attention to
    them, until it became obvious that intolerance to everyone else was their
    biggest motivation.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 65538
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 15:18:25

       By sissifyed I mean effeminate. This might be accomplished in a number of
    ways, but an obvious one would be an upbringing in which everything male was
    disparaged and feminine role models and activities were forced on the child
    exclusively.
      Since you have no trouble blaming men for women turning homosexual, I am
    surprised that you even had to ask how women might do the same thing to men.
    The failures of communication and trust which you speak of in the one case
    surely apply just as well in the other, don't they?
       See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 65539
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 17:48:41

    Re:  "From my experience, a person is totally immobilized physically when
    the juice is on."

    Peter, tell us how you came to be stunned by a stun gun.

    Message: 65540
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on me
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 18:15:41

    Where did atheists having their way and schools enter into this discussion?
    Roger has been providing information from a scholarly book on biblical
    authors, and he is being "bashed" by people who swear up and down that Moses
    wrote the first five books and nobody should try to say any different.

    Daryl did say that there was "recent info" or words to that effect, that the
    work that Roger is quoting from is wrong, but he didn't provide any
    pointers, nor the evidence itself.

    Message: 65541
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bringing
    Date: 05/11/90  Time: 22:33:33

    to Ann
    from Jeff Lochansky
    about mes. 65503 I think it was called bringing
    by the way, I am new at BBSing, so you have to exuse mistakes

    to the point: I do not know where you got that idea you discribed,
    but it sound to me like you watch to much TV (the Simpsons,Married with
    children etc.) I dont think that is the norm any more today, as a
    matter of fact when I was married it was reversed, my exwife laid on the
    couch all day, did drugs insted of drinking beer ,I worked three jobs,
    did the landry, changed the diapers on her daughter etc..then to top it all
    of when I went to work she went to her boyfriends house which I didnt
    know till she got pregnant, and left me because I wouldnt supply drug
    money .  I am glad to be rid of her , but I dont blame other women for
    that, or think other women do the same thing, and I think you are
    generalizing to much with you previous statement. I think that for
    some odd reason you dont like men ,except your hubby. If Im wrong
    Im sorry, please correct me. Sorry to have butted in on a conversation,
    but that was a tuchy subject for me. I just had to show there is an other
    side to the coin thanks for listnig to me

          Jeff Lochansky

    Message: 65542
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last on Jeff L
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 03:09:19

           Butt in all you want Jeff.. that is the idea of BBSing.  If a subject
    hits a nerve, then go for it!

            Your posts are improving.... Keep working at it and soon you could
    be one of the regulars.  (stuck by Modem Madness)

    Message: 65543
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie on adultery
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 05:29:19

     "Men for the most part commit adultery, but women are catching up."
     THere's something wrong with your basic mathematics there Annie. Ever heard
    the saying that it takes two to tango? The number of men an women who commit
    adultery are exactly the same, since it takes one of each. Just in case you
    hadn't noticed. (smile)

    Message: 65544
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 05:38:59

     Since I have been included in your list of contemptible, hateful people, I
    suppose I am required to defend myself.
     If you find me contemptible, Roger, that is your problem and your opinion,
    not my personality. I hope it is not shared by too many. As to the hateful
    part, I do not hate you Roger. I love you as a child of God, just as He
    does. It is your humanistic, ungodly attempts at philosophizing and/or
    explaining away the Bible, and especially those portions that you find
    uncomfortable, that I find abominable, blasphemous and unworthy of a person
    for whom Christ died.
     I believe that every word of Scripture is God-breathed, and that it was
    written by those people to whom credit has been given, as they were inspired
    by the Spirit of God to write. I cannot abide this "bible by committee", all
    alphabetized and categorized into myths, legends and flights of fancy that
    you and Mike Middleton are attempting to foist on people.
     My main concern is that you might find some easily misled people who are
    gullible enough to buy into such nonsense. If that is hateful or
    contemptible in your eyes, so be it, I guess, but I will not apologize for
    my beliefs, nor will I back off from them for your convenience.

    Message: 65545
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau D.
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 05:42:13

     While it is proper to replace fantasy (such as Santa Claus) with truth, it
    is not proper to replace truth with fantasy. Much of what passes for
    Biblical "research" these days is little more than thinly veiled attempts to
    discredit the Bible, the only book that has survived the most vicious of
    attacks and attempts at destruction that the world has ever seen. I'm sure
    that, as God is still on His throne, it will survive this effort also.

    Message: 65546
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on men
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 08:29:07

    Wrong! I love men. Even prefer the company of them over most women (In
    general) That is not to say I love machoism or snoose chewing, spitting
    dudes that think their studs though. Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65547
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on adultry
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 08:32:27

    Yeah - I know it takes two to tango - but most men that commit adultry do so
    with un married females on the average - secretary - college coed -
    someone's sister. Ha. I think I read once the when a women commits adultry,
    she usually does so with a married man. Strange er?
    Re: adultry - isn't it adultry if your married and fornication if your not?
                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65548
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Msg # 65535
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 10:06:29

    65535 is the largest number adressable by an 8-bit machine using a 16 bit
    address...and it was a message about SANTA CLAUS!

    This tidbit of stupidity brought to you by today's male.

    Message: 65549
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Insults / Roger
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 10:17:46

    Again I get insulted. Roger wants me to be a hateful, contemptable
    person who isn't swallowing his B.S. hook line and sinker like
    he has.
    Buhddah once said;
    If a man offers a gift to someone..and the someone refuses the gift,
    who does it belong to?
    To which the man answered, the one who gave it.
    Right.
    And so Buhddah then said, if a man insults another and the insulted
    refuses to accept the insult, who then does it belong to?
    To which the man answered, the one who gave it.

    Hey Roger; I don't swallow your insult either.

    Message: 65550
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul!
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 11:03:13

    What hate and contempt there was in your last message to Roger!

    Take a step back at your last message to me, and the messages of mine to
    which you responded.  Don't you see that your "I believe" "attributed to"
    etc., all *exactly* correlate with my Santa Claus story?  You say "it is
    proper to replace fantasy with Truth", you then close your eyes to any
    possible search for the truth.

    By the way, I'm as sure that the Bible is going to survive as I am sure that
    He is still on His throne.

    Praise Bob!  (2nd paragraph *not* part of argument, only there to inflame)

    Message: 65551
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 11:10:10

    Re:  "The number of men an women who commit
    adultery are exactly the same"

    Not necessarily Paul.  For example, 100 men could all be using the same
    woman.  I'm not sure about today, but a while back before woman's lib, it
    probably was 100 men to 1 woman.

    Message: 65552
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 11:11:43

    Re:  "It is your humanistic, ungodly attempts at philosophizing and/or
    explaining away the Bible, and especially those portions that you find
    uncomfortable, that I find abominable, blasphemous and unworthy of a person
    for whom Christ died."

    Well said Paul.  I see it the same way.

    Message: 65553
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Dyslexia
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:05:52

    What do you call a dyslexic atheist?

    Message: 65554
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dyslexia
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:06:31

    A person who doesn't believe in dog.

    Message: 65555
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Dyslexia
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:07:08

    What do you call a dyslexic agnostic with insomnia?

    Message: 65556
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dyslexia
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:07:44

    A person who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

    Message: 65557
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:36:50

    Well, Paul, to put it mildly, you are wrong.

    Message: 65558
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Noah's problem
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 12:53:40

    In the story of Noah's ark, Noah has a problem. In Genesis 7:1 we have
    YHWH speaking: "And YHWH said to Noah, 'Come, you and all your household,
    to the ark, for I have seen you as righteous before me in this generation.
    Of all the clean beasts, take yourself seven pairs, man and his woman; and
    of the beasts which are not clean, two, man and his woman."
    Then in verse 8:
    "Of the clean beasts and of the beasts which were not clean, and of the
    birds and of all those which creep upon the earth, two of each came to Noah
    to the ark, male and female, as GOD had commanded Noah."

    Noahs problem is that God has commanded Noah to take two of each of
    clean and unclean beasts and YHWH has commanded Noah to take seven of each
    of clean and two of unclean beasts. The dilemma: Which god should Noah
    obey ? GOD or YHWH ? Since the bible is literally true, and god cannot
    lie, then Noah must have been given contradictory instructions by YHWH and
    God, and YHWH and God must be two different Gods.

    How would you solve Noah's problem if you were in his shoes ?

    Message: 65559
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: repley to Ann
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 13:31:14

    from Jeff
    to Ann
    I am glad to hear that you are normal after all. I think you probaly are
    a very nice person judging by your posts. I like most of your opinions,
    so maybe Ill get in on a vew conversations later on.
    see you later--------Jeff (also called Mad Max)-----------

    Message: 65560
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: drugs
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 13:48:24

    from Jeff Lochansky
    to any one
    I have an opinion and I wonder if I could get responses.
    I think we should take all Drug dealers fly them to a certain south
    american country and drop the bomb!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Then we should take all the addicts and give them decent help (ie
    counseling), not throw them into jail with hardcore criminals.
    If any one like to comment on that.
    ========Jeff Lochansky ( Mad Max)============

    Message: 65561
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob T
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 20:51:30

    Ah, I think we already heard that one (or two for that matter).  I thought
    it was funny the first time, though.

    Message: 65562
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/JEDP
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 22:38:18

    I HAVE considered it, Roger. I read the book you seem to hold in such high
    esteem. But I've read others. And I've read (and am still reading) the
    Bible. I am not at all convinced with the JEDP theory. But I am more
    convinced that the Bible is infinitely more important than all the theories
    ever made about it put together.

    Just because I will not agree with your "pet theory," you consider me to be
    some braindead Christian sleepwalker. How can you possibly even CONSIDER
    debating Scriptural authorship and authority when you simply disregard any
    part of Scripture that you don't agree with. Joshua? Throw it away. Jesus
    getting stern with the Scribes and Pharisees? Chuck it. Cut and snip any
    part of the Bible that doesn't fit into your tiny pigeonhole category of
    what you think God is. I cannot discuss Scriptural integrity with someone
    who has no respect for it.

    If my tone in this message sounds "un-Christian" to you, I'm sorry. It just
    irks me when I find someone with such disregard for Scripture start jumping
    on me because I won't believe whatever liberal theory is making the rounds
    this week.

    You keep telling me to wake up. According to Scripture, it is not I who is
    asleep, O fair Roger.

    Message: 65563
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Robertson
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 22:42:23

    Sheesh.

    I think I'll keep my offering in my humble home church collection plate,
    thank YOU.

    *grin*

    Message: 65564
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Hateful
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 22:52:10

    Well, Roger, I think that it is fair to say that you have dished out your
    share of "downglancing" ill emotions during this discussion. I have tried to
    maintain calm, but given the high level of negativity generated by the other
    side, it ain't always easy. Yes, Roger, we still are ONLY HUMAN.

    You said that you hope we find peace because we OBVIOUSLY don't have it in
    your religion (loose quote). How do YOU know that, Roger? Have you somehow
    projected mentally into my brain? I will admit that some of the comments
    from a few have been (IMHO) a tad too harsh. But that gives you no right to
    make any claim of having insight into our faith and peace with God. I am
    QUITE at peace. God has given me faith that does not easily falter in the
    face of adversity. And he works it in me through my reading of His word. I
    have His promise, I have my peace.

    Daryl

    Message: 65565
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Communication
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 23:27:19

    I have a question, and I would very much appriciate any help I can get.
    I am trying my luck at different BBSes, and with a lot of them I get so much
    garbage on my screen that I can make no sense out of it. I have tried to
    change my parameters, but that did not help. The program I am using is=
    ULTIMATE(TERM). I did not get any info or operation instructions with it so
    I really dont know if I am doing every thing right. So far the only BBS that
    works almost perfct for me is Apollo. My setup is: Color Computer 3, 360K DD
    disk, 160K SD disk, TRS-80 IB modem, 80 colum high res Mono monitor.
    If any one could please take the time to help I would be eternaly grateful.
    Thank You ===========Jeff Lochansky=(Mad Max)================
    :

    Message: 65566
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon/God-proof
    Date: 05/12/90  Time: 23:58:35

    It's easy to disprove the existence of God.  Of course, it all depends how
    you define "God," doesn't it?

    Message: 65567
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/AIDS
    Date: 05/13/90  Time: 00:07:15

    AIDS was released by a laboratory in Maryland in 1979.  It is a government
    project designed to combat the population explosion and the social unrest
    that would occur as a result of the widespread starvation predicted by
    social scientists.

    Also, there is a hanger in Nevada where the government keeps the remnants of
    a crash landed extra-terrestrial craft, as well as alien remains.

    The government has had a cure for AIDS since they developed the virus: as of
    this date they have only released part of the cure.  The rest will follow
    when Sgt. Bilko reruns have achieved saturation syndication.

    Mary Jo West has a corner on the world market of Wolframite.

    Message: 65568
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: STUN/THORNBOB
    Date: 05/13/90  Time: 00:33:18

         I enacted a performance art piece some time back, the message
    was "violence is good" (tongue in cheek, of course).  The audience was
    pretty amused until I was repeatedly stunned with a stun gun.
         I have it on video which I could bring to the next GT if anyone is
    interested.

    Message: 65569
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Jeff L./the bomb
    Date: 05/13/90  Time: 01:24:00

    What about drug dealers who are addicts?  You know, the ones who are dealing
    to support their habit.  Do we "nuke" them or give them therapy or both?

    I believe in what Pat Robertson said, 'that Christians, in a few years will
    be treated like the Jews during WWII'.  So, why not substitute Christian for
    Drug Dealers and send them all to a middle eastern country and drop the
    bomb.  I do like to see bibical prophesy come true.  I can harldy wait for
    the Bear (Russia) and the Eagle (U.S.) to have an all out nuclear war so I
    can finally go to heaven and be with my pop.

    I also believe that all coffee brokers should be sent to Columbia and nuked
    and those who drink the stuff be given therapy.  What do you think?

    And in a recent Scientific Study if has been proven that the common condom
    causes cancer, not to mention red cool-aide.

    I'd walk a mile for a Camel, what about you?

    Give peace a chance.  Don't dive in too deep because the water is shallow if
    you know what I don't mean.

    Well, gotta feed Harry.

    Message: 65570
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 05/13/90  Time: 01:29:54

    Just something to think about sometimes.

                    Rod
    P.S.  Roger, I noticed that you are trying to 'enlighten' the Christians.
    Good luck, eh.  Not a one of them ever answered my last few posts.  They can
    be blind as you are no doubt finding out.

    But you can't really blame them because the alternative is reason and in
    this cruel world most men would go stark raving mad without a crutch.  Some
    choose drugs, some religion.....me, I choose sex.  Why not.

    THE VOTE

    posted 05/10/90
    Do you believe the President Kennedy assassination as told to us was the
    truth?

    [A] Yes!  I feel it was told as it happened and there was no conspiracy.
    [B] No! I feel there was a cover-up of a conspiracy.
    [C] I have no thoughts on this subject.

    How do you vote [A-C] or [CR] to abort:B

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 2    [B] 13   [C] 4

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