### Apollo BBS Archive - September 4, 1990

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 16:29:48

            Wow! We do have different values! You state that if a creator lets
    ANY of his creatures suffer, he is a demon-monster!
            But, I maintain that a creator who makes creatures who are UNABLE to
    use free will, then he makes robots or computers, not human beings. And if
    he makes humans and gives them free will, then there will be pain,
    suffering, wars, killing, etc. There is no way around it.
            Therefore, lets try a little syllogistic question, to wit: either
    there is a creator, or there is not, okay? Now, IF there is a creator, then
    he must be one who makes people with free will and the ability to choose
    war, pain, agony, etc., as is apparent from observation. Do you agree? Can
    we agree upon IF there is a creator, then this is what he creates?
            This is not a trap, I'm just curious.
            Also, tho I do not claim to be the brightest kid on the block, I
    know a lot of strong-minded, non-gullible believers What about them?
            Thanks for your thoughts--please continue.    --John C.--

    Mail to John Cummings
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 00:39:37

    If there was some enormous power who had the capability to create what it
    wanted then I doubt if it would create the human condition in the first
    place.  If it did then I would have to say that this power was primlarly
    evil.  Why, you ask?

    Because it would have to enjoy the suffering that is on this planet because
    there is so much of it.  In fact there is more suffering than happiness and
    it has always been so.

    If this creator was capable of knowing the past, present and future and also
    knows each individual creation it made then it would also have to know if it
    was capable of using what you call free will.  It would also have to know
    that a certain percentage of what it created would land in eternal
    punishment, without god, as you put it.  It would have to know this if only
    one of its creations landed in that situation and therefore what you say is
    ridiculous.  You are also saying in effect that god made people for eternal
    punishment.  And consider this:  The norm is for humans to be basically
    unhappy so they go through life finding one hardship after another then when
    they die, a certain percentage will continue to find unhappiness, for
    forever no less.

    What type of monster are you thinking of?  Besides why would an entity that
    was capable of creating something create beings like us?  We are grossly
    ugly and would never be capable of being good company for such a being.  -R
    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69164
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Rod/Iraq
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 18:56:30

    I bet if you ask the Kuwaitis, thay aren't too excited about getting
    swallowed by another stronger country. That's not the way you'd expect a
    civilized country to act, no matter what the reason. I mean, it'd be nice to
    have a beach in Arizona, and Mexico has a lot of problems anyway, but you
    don't see the US annexing Mexico, do you(they have oil there too I think).
    There is no way around the situation. Iraq had a debt. Iraq had an argument
    with Kuwait. Kuwait couldn't defend itself. So Iraq helped itself. It could
    just as easily take the United Arab Emirates and other small relatively
    helpless countries in the middle east. Now you can argue whether America
    should appoint itself policeman(in theory, this is supposed to be the whole
    world smacking Iraq across the face and telling it no), and there is some
    vested interest, both in economic matters and future safety.
    Iraq knew perfectly well that it's, well, just kinda sorta illegal to take
    over countries and it was going to have answer to the UN and the rest of the
    world. (Oh, gee, maybe no one'll notice) They started it, knowing full well
    the probable consequences of their actions. They seem to be ready to go to
    war over it. They had nothing more than even more dishonorable economic
    intentions at heart as a motive.
    And you think we're 100% the bad guy?

    Message: 69165
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Arabs
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 19:00:41

    Speaking for myself and probably for most of the people you're arguing with
    on the matter on this board, I have nothing personal against Arabs in
    general or Iraqis in particular. Like during the Cold War, people
    attacked Russians in general when the average Russian wasn't too enthused
    over what the government was doing and was probably a perfectly nice human
    being. When I speak of "the Iraqis" I'm talking about the ones who have say
    in such matters, like the ones who thought it was am appropriate idea to
    annex an independent country to absolve a debt...

    Message: 69166
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Rod/Iraq
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 19:05:31

    I don't think too many people want to go to war, least of all the people
    over there. Even other Arabs have tried and failed to reach a diplomatic
    conclusion to the conflict. It basically comes down to the fact that Hussein
    refuses to give up his prize and the rest of the world refuses to let him
    get away with it. Considering that Hussein started it, Hussein committed an
    international illegal act, and he refuses to back down, the rest of the
    world is justified in censuring him. If no diplomatic solution is found and
    war occurs, it can be put on Hussein's doorstep. He is the aggressor and any
    war that happens will be his fault.

    Message: 69167
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 21:35:43

    Most of the children that are "protected" by CPS are not the ones pointing
    fingers at their parents.  Most are under the age of 13.  Most are reported
    by teachers, other relatives, or neighbors.  The unfortunate thing is that
    many are not reported.  And those children that are taken from their parents
    don't understand why and end up in a foster home, lonely and unable to trust
    anyone.
    I don't know what the solution is but CPS does offer some good services
    through free counseling.  What seems to work best is when the child can go
    to someone they trust ( a school nurse or friend) and just get out of the
    house some how.  Unfortunately (again), the parent has to sign a form to
    allow the child to leave and be emansipated and they usually don't sign and
    then no one can do anything for the kid.  Not even counseling.
    And the kids don't all want to see their parents behind bars.  Like I said,
    many are so used to their way of life they don't see anything is wrong and
    they still love their parents.  When they do see something is wrong, they
    can't (legally) do anything about it.  And if they want to prosucute, it is
    VERY hard to supply evidence, especially in the cases of repeated sexual
    abuse.
    No, Paul, I don't think what is sad is the system but that the system does
    not work and that there are so many innocent children that are abused.

    Message: 69168
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Infinitesimals
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:12:43

      Are you saying that infinitesimals are not real?
      If so, then explain how it is possible to get from one point to another in
    a finite amount of time, when there are an infinite number of points between
    the two that you have to go through.

             ____nhnnn__________   We all live in a yellow subroutine

    Message: 69169
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Russian Tobacco
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:55:13

    I wonder if it would be worthwhile for me to stock up on Marlboros and take
    a brief trip to Moscow.

    You think?

    Message: 69170
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / Hussein
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:59:21

    If you would like to know more about Iraq and Saddam Hussein, I have a
    friend of mine who was born and raised in Iraq, in Babylon. He is a good
    source of information about Iraq.

    Of course, he fled from Iraq several years ago to escape religious
    persecution (he's a Christian). But he still loves his native country even
    though he is now an American citizen. He keeps up on a lot of what is going
    on in the Arab countries through Arabic newspapers and magazines.

    Message: 69171
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Things
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 23:08:15

    Gosh, everything has been simply
    Outstanding lately! No opportunity to
    Dial in lately, but that's because I've been busy.

    I like my new job, co-workers are
    Simply stupendous!

    Now that my wife has started working
    Once again, we should be able
    To start getting back on our feet, financially.

    Dunno if anyone cares, just thought I'd
    Enter in a message before bed
    And let you know I'm still alive!
    Daryl...signing off.

    Message: 69172
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Steve/infinitesimals
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 02:20:35

    You make my point for me.  After reading all of my messages on this subject,
    you still do not distinguish between MODEL and REALITY.

    Nobody passes through an infinite number of points in reality.  Nobody
    passes through ANY points in reality.  THERE ARE NO POINTS IN REALITY.
    POINTS ARE A MATHEMATICAL ABSTRACTION.

    You are confusing actual motion with an analytical model of motion.  In your
    model, where, for instance, one must pass through half the distance before
    one passes across the whole distance, and previously, must pass through a
    quarter of the distance and before that an eighth, and so on ad infinitum,
    the sum of the partial distances is the limiting sum of a convergent series;
    in this manner the sum of an infinite series is finite.  Each of these sub-
    intervals contains an infinite number of points.

    But that is a description of an abstract model; not a description of
    physical reality.  There are an infinite number of *points* on a number
    *line*, an infinite number of both on a 2-D *plane*, and an infinite number
    of all three in mathematical three-space.  There are no points in reality.
    There are no lines in reality.  There are no planes in reality.  OK?

    Message: 69173
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa/CPS
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:21:48

     Sorry to say this dear, but I'm afraid that you may hve your blinders
    adjusted a bit too tight where CPS is concerned.
     If all you said was true, it would be another matter entirely, and CPS
    would be totally justified in all their actions.
     However, the facts seem to be that CPS does indeed remove children from
    their families, without parental consent, and does place them in foreign (to
    them) environments, and the parents have to go through hell to get them
    back. All this at times without a shred of real evidence of abuse other than
    the say so of a neighbor, or even a neighbor's child.
     I agree that it is a sad situation indeed when innocent children are
    abused, physically, emotionally or otherwise, but the term is being too
    liberally spread to include parental actions that are not abusive, but
    disciplinary or corrective, and a governmental system that intrudes on the
    privacy of family values and purposes is in definite and dire need of
    improvement or abolition.

    Message: 69174
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: models and reality
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:39:20

    In considering what would constitute a description of actual motion, it
    should be noted that one cannot make use of quantitative terms.  Thus,
    I might describe a real motion by stating a description such as "the man
    moved from the front door of his house to his car in the driveway."  The
    instant, however, in which quantitative descriptive terms were brought in,
    however, the statement would no longer describe real motion but an abstract
    model of it.  For example, quantifying the previous description, one might
    say "the man moved thirty feet."  But this is a description of a model of
    reality, not reality itself.  For what some people do not seem to realize
    is that all quantitative concepts, such as distance, time, and so forth,
    are purely abstract concepts.  There is no physical entity called a "foot";
    there is no physical entity called a "minute."
    Now, Roger has in the past maintained that while the conventions
    themselves are arbitrary (i.e., feet vs. meters...), they must in fact be
    measuring something real.  He would maintain that time not the measurement
    itself, but rather, something being measured.  He would maintain that
    distance is not the measurement itself, but something real undergoing
    measurement.  He does not understand that this is false, because he is not
    consciously aware that he is considering models, and not reality, when he
    makes such assertions.  This is because it is second nature for his mind to
    translate reality into models of it; so much so that he is often not even
    aware of this translatory process.

    (CONT.)

    Message: 69175
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: models and reality 2
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:40:19

    When I say that time is the measurement of the temporal interval between two
    occurring events, Roger says, no, time is what is being measured between the
    events. When I say that distance is the measurement of the spatial interval
    between two physical objects, he replies that distance is what is being
    measured between those objects.  In each case, however, he has, without
    even realizing it, translated reality into abstract models; models in which
    physical entities are represented by points, points which have been
    incorporated into a metric grid of some sort, so that they might be defined
    analytically in terms of coordinates.  It should be understood that he
    does this both in the consideration of time and in the consideration of
    distance; in the former case, events are the points, in the latter, objects.
    It should now be clear that distance does not measure; distance is a
    measurement; the measurement is the spatial interval. Ditto for time. This
    is confusing, because linguistically, we ordinarily consider the measured
    and the measurement to be two different things, and not only that, but
    we have been taught that what is measured is necessarily real.  But, in
    the sense in which I have been discussing, we do not measure things; we
    apply measurements to them, or more accurately, we apply measurements to
    the symbols of real things in our abstract models of reality.  To say that
    the conventions of measurement are arbitrary units, should be to realize
    that measurement is an analytic concept applied to analytic models.  But
    most often, this is not the case; people do not make the step from "it
    doesn't matter how you slice it" to "all such slicing is artificial because
    it is arbitrary."

    Message: 69176
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: an explanatory note
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:41:34

    It might be observed, then, given these definitions, that a statement
    such as "time is the measurement of the temporal interval between two
    occuring events" is redundant, since the measurement in this case *is*
    the "temporal interval."

    And this is so.  Why should it not be?  ALL true analytical statements
    are tautologies; surprise, surprise!  This one is only more obviously so
    than some others.

    Consider the statement "red is a color."  This is no less redundant than
    the previous statement.  For the sense of the concept of color is contained
    in the sense of the concept of red.  The predicate "is a color" adds
    no meaning to the subject "red" whatsoever, since it is implicitly
    contained therein.  We might just as easily say "red."  We add "is a color"
    simply because we are creating a definition, and by explicitly stating
    what is implied in one symbol, we have defined it in use.

    Message: 69177
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: dry heat ?
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 07:48:46

    It rained extremely hard in North Scottsdale last night. Many trees were
    struck by lightning with numberous large branches laying in the street. When
    the storm came rumbling into my neighborhood, the rain was more horizontal
    than vertical and whipped around in near-circles. I heard there was a
    tornado at Central and Union Hills. Anyone else get a lot of rain ?

    Message: 69178
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on rain
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 09:19:22

    We got a lot! More than I've seen since we've been in the area in 6 years.
    51st ave was flooded curb to curb and that has never happened since we've
    been here. Our back yard was almost entirely flooded - in another hour, if
    the rains hadn't of let up, it'd been right at the back door! I know we got
    over three inches because the pool filled up at least that much. I heard the
    Airport only got a trace of rain too! Weird! Talking to a guy on the JCCS
    BBS this morning - he said there was indeed a small tornado hit around the
    Union Hills area. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69179
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann on rain
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 09:40:37

    We got more rain than I've seen in a long time, too. The water from the wash
    feeding in from Shea Blvd was flowing so fast culvert couldn't handle the
    flow with the consequence that the main street (Arabian Trail) turned into a
    river, nearly flooding the houses on the corner. At least it disappears
    quickly. At 9:00 pm the flood was but a trickle and this morning there were
    mounds of "kitty litter" washed from the yards of our neighbors.
    Fortunately, we have grass in our front yard, so it greened up just a bit
    more.

    Message: 69180
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 11:03:02

    It is very rare and extremely difficult to get a child taken away from their
    parents.  In the cases were that occurs, there have had to have been at
    least two different interviews with the children and family.
    I don't think it is I who am wearing the blinders.  I have seen CPS's work
    first hand while working with CASA  (Center Against Sexual Assault) and most
    of the mother's there were complaining that CPS or the state could not do
    anything to protect their children from the abusive father (or mother as the
    case may be, but I never say any children in that situation).

    Message: 69181
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rain
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 11:03:35

    Yes.  It rained buckets at our house.
    Oh, and by the way.  Does anyone want a rabbit?

    Message: 69182
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: storms
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 17:16:05

    It looked terrifically threatening, with turquoise colored clouds and all
    down here in Central Phx. Unfortunately, it never got around to raining
    much, just enough to get the dust on my car wet.

    Message: 69183
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Storms
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 18:56:39

    I had problems getting into a shopping mall parking lot since it was all
    full of water.  Seems the puppet heads who made the place thought it was a
    good I idea to have the lot slope down in the middle.  I don't know why,
    since there was no drainage there or anything.
    This other lot was full of mud.
    (The first was at Northern and 43rdAve, the second 43rd and Thuderbird)

    Message: 69184
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rain?
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:04:04

      No rain here in Tempe... not a drop. A little dust...

     *ORIGIN - Lister's Starship - Tempe - 731-9538 - 24hour madness

    Message: 69185
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ART FUNDING
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:42:36

         Average amount paid by a federal taxpayer for NEA funding: 68 cents
         Average amount to be paid by each taxpayer on  S&L bail: 1100 dollars

         Racial/gender breakdown of artists publicly called "obscene" by
    Sen. Jesse Helms:

    homosexuals - 1
    hispanics   - 1
    quadraplegics - 1
    women - 3
    white males - 0

         If I were an aging southern white male, like Jesse Helms, I wouldn't
    want these groups expressing themselves either, I suppose.

         The issue ISN'T "obscenity" or public-funded art.  "Obscene" just makes
    a sensational smokescreen to cover up the real threat.  The threat is
    minority voices finally speaking out in this white-male society.  That's the
    real threat to people like Helms.
         The NEA won't be discontinued.  Instead, "compromises" will be made.
    Meaning, any artist wanting funding in the future will have to agree
    (probably in writing) to tow the acceptable line.  All opposing/questioning
    voices will be denied funding.  Is this patriotism 90s style, or racism the
    old fashion way?

    Message: 69186
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: NEA funding
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:48:22

    can an artist be really free if she is dependent on the government for
    funding ? If the gov't spends the funds, doesn't that give the gov't
    power over the recipient of those funds ? Wouldn't it be better if we
    were asked to contribute as private citizens to underwrite artists ?

    Message: 69187
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter on NEA
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 21:47:10

        Peter, trying to compare what the individual taxpayer pays to fund the
    NEA to what the taxpayer is paying to bail out the S&Ls is like comparing
    apples to oranges. They have absolutely nothing in common.
        As for your "racial/gender" breakdown of artists tagged by Helms as
    'obscene,' again I think you are clutching for straws. You are trying to
    make a discrimination case where there is none.
        What does being quadraplegic, or or Hispanic, or homosexual or female
    have to do with one's artistic ability (or lack thereof)?
        Peter, the issue IS obscenity. Government funding for an exhibit of
    homoerotic art, or for a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine, is the
    the issue. The smokescreen is created by those who want to try to make this
    what it's not, such as a racist or sexist or discriminatory case.
        You try to make NEA funding to be a right. It is a privilege. And with
    any privilege comes responsibility. If an artist doesn't like the boundaries
    that the NEA might set up, then he or she is free to NOT APPLY FOR IT. There
    are other avenues for funding, and there are plenty of artspaces willing to
    open their doors for such artists.
        You ask if it is a question of racism or bigotry. Ask Andres Serrano why
    he used government money to photograph a crucifix submerged in urine. Yes,
    I'd be interested in finding out also, Peter.

    Message: 69188
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on Peter on NE
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 21:57:09

        Those are some good questions, Roger. Why do artists feel they need to
    thrust their outstretched palm to the government? And why do they have to
    complain like undisciplined children when the government refuses to fund
    their 'artistic expressions' of their personal sexual tastes or religious
    hatred?
        I have no problem with people expressing themselves however they wish.
    But I certainly do not wish to spend a single penny to fund an artist that
    expresses him/herself in a manner I consider to be repulsive.
        Why not add a second box to the IRS 1040 form, allowing each citizen to
    check a box if they wish, which would contribute $1 to the NEA if they want-
    ed to. I would most likely contribute, as I have seen a lot of good art,
    music and television programming that has been funded in part by the NEA.
    But if I felt that the NEA was being abused, I had the choice to refuse to
    support it come the next tax year.

    Message: 69189
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Various stuff...
    Date: 09/04/90  Time: 22:40:34

    Red Dwarf:  Hardly worth arguing with someone who takes a suggestion and
    replies with personal insults.

    Mad Max: Remember, I recommended GCU.  Have you met Mrs. Miller or Mr.
    Thompson, yet?

    Re: Hitler's Germany.  Hitler used various means, including illegal methods,
    to gain power in Germany.  Their first try came in 1923, in the Munich
    Beerhall Putch.  The coup was put down, as the military would not come to
    his side.  Hitler spent barely over a year in prison, on a 6 year prison
    sentence, during which time he wrote "Mein Kampf".  Anyone reading this book
    would have clearly seen Hitlers plans to exterminate the Jews and other
    minorities, and occupy most of Europe.  Through various parliamentary
    procedures, and through some illegal scheming, Hitler finally came to power
    in 1933.  Immediately, the first concentration camp was openend, and the
    first opponents of his dictatorship were put there. Increasingly minorities
    were openly attacked by Nazis, culminating in Kristallnacht in 1938, during
    which many Jews were killed in their homes, businesses and synagogues.  Many
    homes, businesses and synagogues were burned and destroyed, and many Jews
    were taken to concentration camps.  The gassing and mass killing of
    concentration camp victims began in 1939, following the opening of
    additional camps in Poland, after it had been seized.  The world was fully
    aware of these events, and President Roosevelt was begged time and again to
    order the bombing of the murder factories.  He refused, and millions died.

    Message: 69190
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/Iraq, etc.
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 00:51:58

    If Hussein's action would have taken place 500 years ago would it be okay
    then?  If he became strong enough and went ahead and took over Saudi Arabi,
    and Jordan would that have been okay too?

    We are speaking of 500 years ago.

    Message: 69191
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bombing of factories
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:03:15

    If Roosevelt had bombed the murder factories then millions more would have
    been killed.

    If you had the decision to make what would you do?  If you bomb them then
    you are killing the prisoners.  If you do destroy them with bombs then the
    Germans would just build another and again fill it with prisoners just
    hoping you'd bomb that one too.  You'd be doing their jobs for them, so to
    speak.

    The Americans got to the death camps as quickly as they could.  All of our
    strategies weren't always correct but that is the way it is.  If we made
    every decision correctly then we could have liberated them sooner but that
    is just not the way it works.

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