### Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 15, 1990

    Mail from Zak Woodruff
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 01:49:27

    So a toothless Christ with a greasy mouth performed fellatio on you?

    Zak is my real name.  Short for Zachary.

    Is Larry Michaels your real name?
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Jesus also has a beard and it acts much like pussy hair.  God is clean
     2:shaven (Gotta be respectable) and the stubble hurts.
     3:
     4:My real name is Bob McDobbs but you can call me J.R. for short.  Bye Zak and
     5:keep up the fucking good posts.
     6:end

    Message: 63340
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 01:12:20

    I will TRY to answer your TOUGH question concerning the deterring of
    harmful acts on others.

    I guess we should separate those who choose violence as a way of life from
    those who do not.

    But I am afraid that our prison system only makes matters worse.  At
    present it is filled to capacity with a large majority of people who are
    there for what is called a victimless crime.  The true criminals, after
    plea bargaining, are back out in society after a few years.

    Prison does not rehabilitate the criminal, unfortunately.  An inmate will
    use his time behind bars to plan their next crime.  They also learn a bit
    about homosexual activity while locked up.  If not that then they become
    proficient with masturbation.

    In any case, prison does not take a hardened criminal and turn them into a
    contributing member of society, in most cases, that is.

    So, our methods, at this time, are ineffective and the violent person is
    again loosed on society to act out their aggressions.

    We simply do not have the correct knowledge to help a violence prone person
    into leading a good life.  I believe that our current system just makes
    matters worse.  We lock them up, give them a damn dreary and meaningless
    life for a few years (One day behind bars seems like one week on the
    outside.)  The prisoners freedoms are taken away, they are treated like
    dirt and made to lick-boot, if at all possible.

    When they come out, for the most part, they are worse than when they went
    in.  There are a number of violent people being locked away every day and
    there are also a number of them being released every day.  But the ones who
    are coming out are harder than the ones going in.

    So, you ask me, how do we punish real criminals?  Well, for the time being
    I would think that making each institution a self-contained farm and
    community would be a start.  Farms in Washington State could trade goods
    with farms in Arizona and so forth so that the burden of cost would not be
    on the middle-class taxpayer.  Visits with ones family would be nice and
    plenty of parties with the prisioners of the opposite sex would make the
    inmates think that this may be a fair world after all.

    People with pent up hostilities are more prone to violence.  Let's show
    them that they can have a good time all the while being kept, for the time
    being, apart from mainstream America.

    There could be prison universities, ran by prisoners.  You know, many of
    them are highly intelligent individuals.

    Message: 63342
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: suicide
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 02:08:40

         Mike Carter:  "If we allow abortions to be legalized, then we can argue
    using the same arguments to allow suicide to be legalized."

         What arguments are you referring to?

         I don't see any tie between the arguments for suicide and abortion.  A
    person who commits suicide is in essence *destroying something that belongs
    to him*.  Why is this wrong?  If somebody buys a television, and then takes
    it into his or her house and smashes it with an axe, there is nothing
    legally wrong with it.  (We're talking legality here, not health.)  Your
    life is something YOU OWN.  Nobody else owns or has any rights over your
    body.  Nobody can say "Your life, to x degree, belongs to me."  This isn't a
    natural right, mind you, but it's a societal right that we're supposed to
    have.  (As far as natural rights go, somebody could conceivably say that, in
    which case you would be a slave.)

         Your argument that legalized suicide and euthanasia would lead to the
    legalized killing of the elderly is absurd.  Euthanasia, like everything
    else, can have limits.  Somebody who's in a coma for 3 years with little
    hope of recovery is one thing; somebody who has a bum leg and is retired is
    another.

         Finally, I agree with Dean that only *attempted* suicide can be
    illegal.  Obviously.  If attempts are attention-seeking, how do we react?

    Message: 63343
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Larry Michaels
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 02:19:57

        ...So we should not put criminals in prison, but rather put them on
    a communal farm?  A sort of all-year-round summer camp for the emotionally
    disturbed?
         What do we teach these individuals?  That life is fun?  Do we hire
    philosophers and educators to come in and tell the prisoners, "Hey.  Killing
    isn't cool.  If we all love and help each other, things will work out.  If
    you feel angry, go give somebody a hug."
         Face it:  these values can't be taught.  For most people, once you're
    brought up with a value-system (especially an extreme one), it takes a lot
    of experience and self-evaluation to change that value system.  We can't put
    people who thrive on hurting others into little communities that are all
    neato and cooperative, and then send them out into the harsh real world and
    expect them to say "Hey, I no longer want to kill people!  I want to love
    them!  My brothers and sisters on the farm taught me that it's *fun* to be
    nice and to work hard for a living, instead of getting it quick and easy by
    stealing!"

         My point is, this is not a valid plan.  The problems you suggested with
    our prison are important, and should be changed.  (We shouldn't let the
    committers of more heinous crimes off the hook; we shouldn't put people in
    jail just for taking chemicals into their bodies.)  The prison environment
    sucks, but that is the nature of it:  it's all the worst products of society
    put into one big shack.  It sucks, but it's better than letting them go
    free.

         Another reason, besides deterrence, for punishing criminals?  BECAUSE
    THEY DESERVE IT.  If somebody tromps on another's rights, he forfeits his
    own.  That's the contract you implicitly sign by being a member of society.

         By the way, you wrote both your messages with the idea that the reason
    for prisons is to re-habilitate the prisoner.  This is an incorrect
    assumption.  The reasons for prison sentences, in order of importance, are
    (1) punishment for the sake of punishment, (2) to protect society, and (3)
    to re-habilitate.
         Prison re-habilitation plans have shown little success.  This is
    probably more complex than this, but it may be that prisoners resent
    simultaneously being punished and being forced to "receive help."  What
    re-habilitation is attempted must be designed with a clear focus and an
    emphasis on self-responsibility.  Many people just can't be rehabilitated,
    though.

    Message: 63348
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Prison systems
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 05:58:39

     THe discussion between Larry and Zak has been very interesting, with both
    making some very valid points.
     I have a thought on the subject that I would like to toss into the ring,
    just for the heck of it. This is very generalized and quite oversimplified,
    but I think if it were polished and refined a bit, it would serve society
    well, and certainly would alleviate the prison overcrowding problem we now
    have. Here 'tis.
     People convicted of violent crimes against people. This would include, but
    is not limited to, murder, rape, child abuse (repeated), drug sales or
    distribution, etc. - Capitol punishment. Execution upon conviction, not an
    appellate system that drags on for years.
     White collar criminals, or for crimes against property. Highly supervised
    probation, with a scheduled program of total restitution, plus interest, of
    all property stolen and/or damaged. This would include burglars, embezzlers,
    armed robbers who do not maim or kill people, etc.
     As I said, it is very simplified, but is more of a seed thought than
    anything else. It would seem that such a system would be more fair toward
    the victim, as well as toward society as a whole, plus, in the case of the
    non violent criminal, far more rehabilitative than languishing behind prison
    walls, unproductive, for years. In the case of hardened violent criminals,
    it would also resolve the problem of recidivism.
    Watcha think?

    Message: 63349
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ghee
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 07:15:28

    Ghee Whizzzzz, Melissa,
        My Yak won't give any milk, said it wasn't in his job description.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 63350
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 07:51:57

    No no no.
    That's Cheeze Whiz.

    Message: 63351
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Illegal suicide??
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 08:36:55

    I never could understand why suicide was made into a law. If a person does
    it, you can't punish them can you? If he doesn't succeed, what are they
    going to do to him? Throw him in jail? Spend the tax payers money to make
    him stand trial for the miss? Make him go to a doctor? What does the law do
    in a attempted suicide case anyway? It seems to me on one could control such
    a thing. \\* ANN *//

    Message: 63352
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Prisons
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 09:05:52

            If you made Prison universities, Prison parties, Prision Farms....
    People would commit crimes just too get in.

            Personaly, I think they need to be run tougher, more like the
    experimental one where they treat the prisioners like they were in a Marines
    boot camp.  You have to teach discipline, not the Cha-Cha!  I also think the
    death penalty should be used more, and when convicted, carry it out within a
    reasonable time.  It seems to take years for one to move down death row.

            By the way, that prison experiment seems to have a very high
    success rate so far.