### Apollo BBS Archive - July 17, 1987

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* $tatus Club Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1559
    Author: $ Robert Simpson
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Last
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 22:06:10

    Thinking of giving them green cards?

    Message: 1560
    Author: $ Robert Simpson
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Zak/Lightspeed
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 22:07:13

    aigh....Please, no more light speed....hehe...Go find an Occult SIG
    and put
    it in there.

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Late Night Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1113
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cat-napping
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 01:48:44

    There's nothing wrong with that if it works for you. The point is
    to do
    whatever best coincides with your natural body rhythms, and not what
    the
    teacher told you.

    Message: 1114
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: sleep
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 23:12:00

    I've heard that there is a four-hour period when you get all your
    essential
    rest, and what's left just sort of spills over and is not needed.
     These
    four hours are the first four you're asleep.  A well-patterned daily
    schedule should help you get the minimum requirement of sleep for
    the
    maximum and optimum amount of enjoyable waking hours.

    This comes from the book, "Live More, Sleep Less" by
    I-Forget-Who-But-I-Could-Look-Up-Her-Name.

    Of course, as Im sure Rod would probably point out if I didn't say
    anything,
    the time needed varies from person to person.

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 45153
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: God
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 07:03:04

    I nearly jumped out of my skin when God appeared in a flash of light and a
    trumpetted chorus of angels.  I shielded my eyes with my left hand.  "Do you
    think you could cool it with the burning bush routine, this isn't a
    Barbeque."
            God shrugged and changed his appearance to that of an old man with
    white hair (that reminded me of the portrait of John Brown.  "Sorry about
    that, Billi.  Thanks for the invitation to dinner."
            "No problem."  I pointed to the to the menu.  "Go ahead, pick
    anything.  This is my treat."
            God looked at the menu and laughed.  "Raw Oysters?"
            "Go ahead," I encouraged him.
            He shook his head.  "No.  I never intended for them to be eaten.
    One of my angels designed them for the 'food so slimey no one will eat it'
    contest.  I held it on Thursday..."
            As he read the menu I noticed he kept looking over his shoulder and
    seemed somewhat nervous.  "What's wrong?"
            God smiled sheepishly.  "Nothing, really.  Coming down to earth just
    makes me uneasy.  I haven't done it for years."
            I frowned.  "Why does it make you uneasy?"
            God shrugged.  "Well, the last time I was here I got involved with a
    Jewish girl, and you guys are still talking about it..."

    Message: 45154
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim's book
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 07:15:07

    No, I haven't forgotten to post the messages on Jim Lippard's book.  I've
    written a couple of them but want to post them in a more logical sequence.
    I'll be working on them next week.  I explained to Jim by mail that I'm
    working on getting ready for this Saturdays program, which will keep me busy
    till then.

    Message: 45155
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod's People
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 07:21:25

    It is truly ironic that Rod likes to "bash" God for men's decisions and for
    evil in the world.  His little stories about little creatures sound nice,
    but most people wouldn't like the caricature of the human mind as a little
    robot created by God with no will, no feelings, no worth.  Well, as Jacques
    Monod pointed out, if evolution is true, we are just a chance occurence that
    has no worth in this whole universe.  Sheesh I'm glad I don't believe that.
         Anyway, Rod, you'd probably get real mad if God made your fingers numb
    everytime you tried to post your Gar-bage and blasphemy.  "God is unfair-
    he's not letting me express myself!"  Yet when God doesn't zap the dude who
    rips off your house you get mad at him too.  Guess he can't win either way,
    huh?  Jim Lippard mentions the idea that if God is omnipotent, why didn't he
    have Hitler have a heart attack and rid us of the whole problem.  Then
    again, how does Jim (or Rod) know that there were 10 men killed in WWII who,
    if they had not died, would have taken over the world in 1952 and killed
    600,000,000 people?  "If" questions, I suppose, can go on forever.  I'm sure
    glad you aren't god, Rod.  You couldn't handle the job requirements.

    Message: 45156
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Billi Idyll
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 08:08:04

      Great "My Dinner with..."!!  I just about fell of my keyboard laughing.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 45157
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: But seriously, folks
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 08:14:14

      Rod, consider this:  Could there be a being that demanded worship, and
    tried to hide his existence from people that only used logical deductive
    thinking and not faith?  I assert that such a being is conceivable.  You may
    not LIKE such a being, and feel that he is undeserving of your worship, but
    just becuase you don't like something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I
    don't like Evan Mecham, and will not support him, and think that it is
    terrible that he is governer, but my dislike aside, he exists.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 45158
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: evil
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 08:41:31

    Note that the free will defense only accounts for moral evil, not physical
    evil (earthquakes, floods, other natural disasters).  Alvin Plantinga, a
    Christian philosopher of religion, tries to account for physical evil by
    claiming that the devil is the cause of natural disasters (along with
    whatever natural causes).  This fails utterly, since even if there were no
    devil the natural causes would be sufficient to bring about exactly the same
    result.
       I think that the free will defense also fails to account for moral evil.
    As I said on Jim's radio show, the fall into sin is unexplained.  Why did
    God create beings who would freely choose evil rather than beings who always
    freely choose good?  To claim that beings who always freely choose good
    would not really be free is to claim that freedom logically entails
    sometimes choosing evil.  If that is the case, then Adam and Eve cannot be
    held responsible for their choice of evil--it was a logically necessary
    consequent of their being created free.
       If a blind man is about to walk into an open manhole, and you can prevent
    it merely by calling out, and you fail to do so, you are in some sense
    responsible for injuries he incurs.  The greater your ability to prevent
    accident and the less effort required of you, the greater your
    responsibility if you fail to act.  For an omnipotent being, the ability to
    prevent the accident is infinite and the effort required is infinitesimal,
    and therefore approaches full responsibility.

    Message: 45159
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GOD/ROD
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 09:54:28

    Thanks for your post RE: women. -- ANN

    Message: 45160
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 09:57:11

    Just curious -I assumne you do not believe in evolution - do you believe the
    world was created by God about 8,000 ago? If the latter - how do you account
    for millions of year old fossils?? --- ANN

    Message: 45161
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 10:30:07

         God put them here to test our faith.

    Message: 45162
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 16:03:15

    I try and stay out of futile religious arguments these days, but I just had
    to mention a few things...
    Are you saying that this is the best of all possible worlds (that seems to
    be your way of rationalising evil (i.e. if x number of people are killed in
    a war, it's only because without the war 2x number of people would be
    killed).
    Also, you seem to be overlooking the fact that moral responsibility is
    necessary for any creator (ideally). Of course, if god were truly omnipotent
    (capable of anything) he could certainly create a world in which people had
    free will and chose good. Or a world where people had free will...that is to
    say, the ability to make moral decisions, but NOT the ability to inhibit
    someone else's freedom by inflicting them as a result of their corrupt will.
    In any case, in a morally ideal sense, it is evil to create the potential
    for others to suffer. If there simply is no way to create human beings
    without causing them horrible suffering, then a responsible creator wouldn't
    create them at all. And what about god? Does he have free will? He is
    supposed to be omnipotent and all-good. It surely seems likely that a being
    with these abilities could create beings similarly endowed. Finally, as
    someone (I think it was Jim Lippard) pointed out, there is no explaination
    for the impersonal suffering caused by the blind universe (i.e. earthquakes,
    etc.) A piece of rock has no will or awareness, and it seems likely that an
    omnipotent being could keep a few rocks in check, hmmm? What about disease,
    hell, forget cancer, why did god create dandruff?!!
    (cont.)

    Message: 45163
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cont.
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 16:16:42

    What about animals? The bible says they lack souls, and free will. Hmmm, I
    see plenty of evidence to the contrary. What then is the excuse for allowing
    evil to befall them, by humans and by other will-less animals? All you
    really have to do, James, to understand that god does not exist, is take a
    simple biology course. Given the clumsy, wasteful, blundering and low, and
    horribly cruel works of nature; as seen in the suffering caused by parasites
    and in the cruelty shown by some predators when catching and "playing" with
    their prey, it revolts any thinking intellect to reconcile these facts with
    the qualites commonly attributed to god; almighty, and posessed of
    inexhaustible compassion. To paraphrase someone (I don't recall who),
    "Surely you can see that the Old Testament, from its manifestly false
    history of the Earth, and from it's attributing to God the feelings of an
    egomaniacal tyrant, is not to be trusted any more than any other "holy
    book". The New Testament does not fare any better, and indeed, I can hardly
    see how any moral,humane being ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if
    so, the plain language of the text seems to imply that men who do not
    believe (and this would include billions of essentially good people) will be
    everlastingly punished. And this is a petty, Draconian, and damnable
    doctrine."

    Message: 45164
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 17:47:17

      Lymphocytes, like wasps, are genetically programmed for
    exploration, but each of them seems to be permitted a
    different, solitary idea.  They roam through the tissues,
    sensing and monitoring.  Since there are so many of them,
    they can make collective guesses at almost anything
    antigenic on the surface of the earth, but they must do
    their work one notion at a time.  They carry specific
    information in their surface receptors, presented in the
    form of a question: is there, anywhere out there, my
    particular molecular configuration?  It seems to be in the
    nature of biologic information that it not only stores
    itself up as energy but also instigates a search for more.
    It is an insatiable mechanism.
      Lymphocytes are apparently informed about everything
    foreign around them, and some of them come equipped for
    fitting with polymers that do not exist until organic
    chemists synthesize them in their laboratories.  The cells
    can do more than predict reality; they are evidently
    programmed with wild guesses as well.
      Not all animals have lymphocytes with the same range of
    informationm as you might expect.  As with language, the
    system is governed by genes, and there are genetic
    differences between species and between inbred animals of
    the same species.  There are polymers that will fit the

    Message: 45165
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 17:57:20

    receptors of one line of guinea pigs or mice but not others;
    there are responders and nonresponders.
      When the connection is made, and a particular lymphocyte
    with a particular receptor is brought into the presence of
    the particular antigen, one of the greatest small spectacles
    in nature occurs.  The cell enlarges, begins making new DNA
    at a great rate, and turns into what is termed,
    appropriately, a blast.  It then begins dividing,
    replicating itself into a new colony of identical cells, all
    labeled with the same receptor, primed with the same
    question.  The new cluster is a memory, nothing less.
      For this kind of mechanism to be useful, the cells are
    required to stick precisely to the point.  Any ambiguity,
    any tendency to wander from the matter at hand, will
    introduce grave hazards for the cells and even more for the
    host in which they live.  Minor inaccuracies may cause
    reactions in which neighboring cells are recognized as
    foreign, and done in.  There is a theory that the process of
    aging may be due to the cumulative effect of imprecision, a
    gradual degrading of information.  It is not a system that
    allows for deviating.

    Message: 45166
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James/women
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 19:35:29

    I can see where you may think that my reiteration of the incidents could be
    viewed with the notion of bias. Bias could very well be a contributing
    factor in my perspective of those situations, however,  these various people
    verbalized the contributing factor as my being  a woman. There were no
    brain waves or facial configurations for me to interpret in these matters.
            I do realize that there are instances out there where women, blacks,
    and other 'under-privilaged' peoples claim discrimination when in fact it
    was nothing more than just the 'under-privilaged' person not qualifying.
            All that happened though is now Water Under The Bridge. The Statutes
    of Limitations has run out. If I would only have known then what I know now.
    Tisk, Tisk.

    Message: 45167
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 21:38:55

    Jim, I'm sure glad I got past the stage that you're mind is currecntly in.
    You should try re-reading one of your post and think about them.  You very
    seldom make any sense at all.
      You talk about worth, and I say, our worth is exactly what we make it, no
    more, no less.  The possibilities of what life can (and will) achieve is
    totally without limits or any sort, believe that.  If you need a 'god' to
    feel worthwhile then you need to add this program line:
       (no line #)  I am as important as the mighty oak, we both have the same
    right to share this world.  I am an equal part of the all, I will have fun!
      Now the only catch to this is that it is very hard to have real fun in an
    environment that is basically cruel.  So, we evolutionists realize that we
    must be a part of the solution rather than the xtian way of 'just acception
    a son of your god, and leave everything to him, it will all be handled for
    you'.   Sorry, no way, what a stupid story and you are following it because
    you are basically insane.  But not to worry, we all are in one way or
    another.  It is how we deal with the insanity that's important and there are
    so many people 'out' there, each one telling us that 'their way' is the way.
      But the WAY is to create a happy world, it's that simple but there are the
    majority who are so out of it still because they have not yet figured out
    what is brainwashing and what isn't.  I'll help, I want to.
      Rather there is a creator or not does NOT MATTER one byte, not one.
    The important thing here is to actually work towards making your
    environment better, instead of fighting & hating other sects who do not
    believe as you do.   I believe I will help us evolve.

    Message: 45168
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Alan
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 21:46:15

    You are being ridiculous and besides that if you are in deed an athiest then
    I suggest you help out with your brothers evolvement or don't you give a
    $hit and just lay around and watch Tammy Faye and try to see up her dress?
      If you can help a sister see just one point you are helping out this world
    and we both know it needs vast imrovements, huh?
      Perhaps you are an atheist because your parents are of that belief and you
    have not yet come to your own conclusions based on scientific logic and that
    is why you say nothing.
      Look, yes, you are correct, there could be a god and the first thing it
    did was to eliminate any way for its creations to know it existed or just
    had them guess.  Sure, I give you that, now, why in the hell are you an
    atheist????
                            Rod
    P.S.  Do you give your 10 per-cent to the National Atheists???

    Message: 45168
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Alan
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 21:46:15

    You are being ridiculous and besides that if you are in deed an athiest then
    I suggest you help out with your brothers evolvement or don't you give a
    $hit and just lay around and watch Tammy Faye and try to see up her dress?
      If you can help a sister see just one point you are helping out this world
    and we both know it needs vast imrovements, huh?
      Perhaps you are an atheist because your parents are of that belief and you
    have not yet come to your own conclusions based on scientific logic and that
    is why you say nothing.
      Look, yes, you are correct, there could be a god and the first thing it
    did was to eliminate any way for its creations to know it existed or just
    had them guess.  Sure, I give you that, now, why in the hell are you an
    atheist????
                            Rod
    P.S.  Do you give your 10 per-cent to the National Atheists???

    Message: 45169
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 21:49:39

    You are quite welcome, dearie!

    Message: 45170
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GREAT POSTS
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 21:59:40

    My mind has been boggled by the atheist posts, although not from you James
    White, I needed a knife to cut through them.
      Why don't you join us in science, you obviously have a lot going for you
    but it is sad to see it going for naught, a big aspirin I call it.
      With your effort in these matters we could push ahead at a better clip.
    People who adopt diety religions believe that there troubles will be handled
    for them and all they have to do is recognize their diety.  Simply, isn't
    it?
      Evolutionists have it hard in that regard.  We actually believe that if we
    are to have a good world then we gotta make it, no one will do it for us.
    True, it is happier being a christian, granted, that I agree with but there
    is so much bull and antiquated ways that it is a regress.
      Again, you won't be happier as an evolutionist but you will feel more
    real.  It is scary just knowing that many people EXPECT nuclear holocaust
    just so their prophesy will be fulfilled.
                    In the blood of Jesus, I is,
                    Your friend and enemy,
                    Rod

    Message: 45171
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod...Sense?
    Date: 07/18/87  Time: 00:27:29

            Rod, you make no sense at all...  Jim makes sense... again
    you have
    it backward.  In a world where you "PARTY" all day long, you would
    learn
    nothing of value.
            Mark, if God created man with only the value of good... then
    we
    would not have "FREE WILL"... we would all be Robots like Rod would
    create.
            Rod again... You can't see though your own Bi-focals that
    when you
    call a Christian "STUPID" that you create "HATE" (Your hate)...
     You just
    can't stand people with free will to choose... it drives you crazy
    with
    hate.  You are the "Glitch" (as you call it). As a Christian, I like
    you in
    person... but your Ideas on religion $UCK! But I don't hold it against
    you,
    I still feel we are friends.  So if this is true... why are us Christians
    so
    bad?

    ClifFORD

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