### Apollo BBS Archive - March 15, 1990

    Message: 63846
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/ToG
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 06:06:43

     That is one misinterpretation that I never could fathom. Exactly where does
    the Bible say that the earth is only 6000 years old? Chapter and verse,
    please.
     The simple answer to that is that it doesn't. There is enough of a gap
    between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 to allow for several million, or even
    billions of years. If you want to theorize, try this on for size. Since the
    books we recognize as the Old Testament are for the most part a history of
    the Hebrew nation, could not Adam and Eve have been the beginnings of that
    nation, and not necessarily the first man and woman on earth? If not, then
    from whence came the Hittites, the Jebusites, and all those other races of
    people who were the constant enemies of Israel? There are many things, and
    many people that the Bible doesn't account for in detail. THis does not mean
    that they did not exist.
     Anyway, I'm glad that your statements do not reflect your belief in God, or
    the lack thereof. Have a good day.

    Message: 63847
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last three
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 06:19:02

     WHat are you Larry, a part of the ACLU team?
     THat is the biggiest bunch of BS I have hear in ages, and is exactly the
    copout that the bleeding heart, Freudian thinking apes that run the ACLU use
    as an alibi for personal responsibility.
     Everyone, and I mean everyone, regardless of where or how he was raised,
    knows the difference between right and wrong by the time he reaches
    accountability. What he does with that knowledge is up to him, and totally
    and solely his responsibility.

    Message: 63848
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: the NEW poll
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 11:22:22

    SuperBowl 1993 for Arizona.... (if we have an MLK day) ??
    Answer the *closest* to your view, and forget about the political Blackmail
    that seems to be implied by the NFL or others.

    [A] I want the SuperBowl and MLK day for Arizona!
    [B] I want the SuperBowl but NOT the MLK day.
    [C] I want the MLK day but not the SuperBowl.
    [D] I don't want the SuperBowl or the MLK day.

    [E] I don't care one way or another.

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 2    [B] 2    [C] 1    [D] 2    [E] 0
            (as of 11:30am 03/15/90)

    Message: 63849
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/6000 year-old
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 12:50:35

    I suggest you ask some Creationist, not me. I haven't the foggiest idea.

    Message: 63850
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 15:16:30

    Larry's prime motive is the provocation of outrage.  I suggest you keep that
    in mind the next time you consider a response.

    Message: 63851
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Joke
    Subject: Freudianism
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 15:27:18

    PSYCHIATRIST: And what seems to be the trouble?

    PATIENT: I've been having these horrible, splitting headaches.

    PSYCHIATRIST: And when did these headaches begin?  Around the time you
    realized your father was a horrible man?

    PATIENT: No, my father was a wonderful man.  My headaches began last week,
    when I was working under my car and the jack broke and the car fell on my
    head.  I've also been bleeding from my ears.

    PSYCHIATRIST: I see.  And was your father's name Jack?

    Message: 63852
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 17:28:42

    Oh, I don't think that men should be absolved for the ideologies they
    choose.  I just also don't think that there isn't a basis for judging
    ideologies as well.  Separating man and his ideologies is like trying to
    take the egg out of the already baked cake, so to speak.

    Message: 63853
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Savage
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 17:39:04

    "...the copout that the bleeding heart, Freudian thinking apes that run the
    ACLU use as an alibi for personal responsibility."

    When has that ACLU denied that individuals are responsible for their
    actions?  Chapter and verse, please.  What is a Freudian thinking ape?  (And
    does a Freudian thinking ape eat bananas?)

    By the way, you have a realistic view of the Genesis account in the bible.
    However a lot of Christians strongly disagree with you.  The Institute for
    Creation Research and people such as Josh McDowell place the earth's age at
    10,000 years or less.

    Message: 63854
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck on Larry
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 17:41:34

         "Larry's prime motive is the provocation of outrage."

    How do you know his motive?  You can't observe a motive.  What are you, some
    sort of Freudian-thinking ape psychologist?

    Message: 63856
    Author: Tao Jones
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: The Stonecutter
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 19:31:23

    There was once a stonecutter, who was dissatisfied with himself and with his
    position in life.

    One day, he passed a wealthy merchant's house, and through the open gateway,
    saw many fine possessions and important visitors.  "How powerful that
    merchant must be!" thought the stonecutter.  He became very envious, and
    wished that he could be like the merchant.  Then he would no longer have to
    live the life of a mere stonecutter.

    To his great surprise, he suddenly became the merchant, enjoying more
    luxuries and power than he had ever dreamed of, envied and detested by those
    less wealthy than himself.  But soon a high official passed by, carried in a
    sedan chair, accompanied by attendants, and escorted by soldiers beating
    gongs.  Everyone, no matter how wealthy, had to bow low before the
    procession.  "How powerful that official is!" he thought.  "I wish that *I*
    could be a high official!"

    Then he became the high official, carried everywhere in his embroidered
    sedan chair, feared and hated by the people all around, who had to bow down
    before him as he passed.  It was a hot summer day, and the official felt
    very uncomfortable in the sticky sedan chair.  He looked up at the sun.  It
    shone proudly in the sky, unaffected by his presence.  "How powerful the sun
    is!" he thought.  "I wish that *I* could be the sun!"

    Then he became the sun, shining fiercely down on everyone, scorching the
    fields, cursed by the farmers and laborers.  But a huge black cloud moved
    between him and the earth, so that his light could no longer shine on
    everything below.  "How powerful that storm cloud is!" he thought.  "I wish
    that *I* could be a cloud!"

    Then he became the cloud, flooding the fields and villages, shouted at by
    everyone.  But soon he found that he was being pushed away by some great
    force, and realized that it was the wind.  "How powerful it is!" he thought.
    "I wish that *I* could be the wind!"

    Then he became the wind, blowing tiles off the roofs of houses, uprooting
    trees, hated and feared by all below him.  But after a while, he ran up
    against something that would not move, no matter how forcefully he blew
    against it - a huge, towering stone.  "How powerful that stone is!" he
    thought.  I wish *I* could be a stone!"

    Then he became the stone, more powerful than anything else on earth.  But as
    he stood there, he heard the sound of a hammer pounding a chisel into the
    solid rock, and felt himself being changed.  "What could be more powerful
    than I, the stone?" he thought.  He looked down and saw far below him the
    figure of a stonecutter.

    Message: 63858
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 21:21:11

    Good point.  I guess what I'm trying to say (and probably what you mean as
    well) is that ideologies can be judged, but only men can be found culpable.

    Message: 63859
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Larry Michaels
    Date: 03/15/90  Time: 22:20:31

          I can agree with you up to a point -- the criminal mind is not
    responsible for the environment that brought it into existence.  That is
    clear.  We have a chain that starts with environmental circumstances (which
    includes other people), affects an individual, and causes criminal behavior.
         We can't blame and only blame the individual.  Yes, society is partly
    "responsible."  But the direct act of punishment or retribution has to be
    taken out on the direct agent of the crime.  This is the only effective
    course of action.  An alternative, such as "punishing society," doesn't
    exist, with or without blame.  (Though the cost of prisons in taxes could be
    interpreted as a form of punishment.)      You seem to have a problem with
    the idea of punishing someone if their ignorant actions are the result of
    their environment.  Why?  Let the criminal pay for what he has taken.  The
    alternative - no punishment - has more potential for harm, for the members
    of society who contribute to its well being are at continual risk of harm
    from the criminal.  You have not offered any good reasons for not punishing
    criminals.
          I was talking to my mom (a teacher) about her students today, and she
    told me that there are an increasing number of students who are obnoxious
    and defiant in class, and who learn nothing.  These student's parents
    (mostly lower class) don't seem, in her evaluation, to give them the sort of
    nurturing and role-modeling that would lead them to *want* to get an
    education and try to succeed in the system the government has given them to
    help them get ahead.  Instead, they are immersed in the mundane.  Blame who
    you like, the situation is still pathetic.

         The problem I have with what you are saying, Larry, is that it is not
    shedding any new light on the matter.  Yes, I know that society (people) are
    to blame for the state of things.  Specific individuals who cause direct
    harm are punished, even though everyone may be guilty for a general lack of
    enlightenment and kindness, if only subtly.  It's the way it is - we can't
    expect everyone to behave perfectly.
         So, in all of your posts, you express this sort of philosophical
    paradox of the non-nurturing vs. the non-nurtured, and try to absolve
    (wrongly) those who blatantly break the rules of responsiblity.  You've said
    it again and again.  So what is your proposed solution?  What can each
    individual do to better the lot of man as a whole?  Instead of just harping
    on about how society is bad, give us some concrete examples of good things
    that can be done to contribute.  Surely you think that society is
    responsible for itself, and thus each individual must do his part, right?
    What, specifically, should be done?

    Message: 63861
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last on Society
    Date: 03/16/90  Time: 00:08:17

            If... people were RESPONSIBLE for them selves, rather then blaming
    everyone else for their problems, then a smooth running society would fall
    in place as a matter of fact.

            To try and have government solve all problems is a democratic joke!

    That's my Nickles worth...

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

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