### Apollo BBS Archive - November 27, 1988

    Main Menu command:V

    Should Apollo's log in welcome include the wording "In God We Trust"?

    [A] I Think that is a GREAT idea! (YES)
    [B] I don't care one way or the other. (A MAYBE)
    [C] I do not like the idea at all! (NO)

    Deutch: "In Gott Wir Vertrauen"  an Apollo?
    [A] Ich denke das ist eine gross idee! (Ya)
    [B] Ich habe keine idee. (Vielleicht)
    [C] Ich gliech die Idee nicht. (Nein)

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 11   [B] 8    [C] 11

    Mail from Dean Hathaway
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 13:34:31

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

      I think it is worth noting that JT only said 'Haw haw' to your post
    instead of trying to refute it. You did good.
       See You Later
          Dean H.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:        Thank you.  By the way, Hawley would never welch on a bet.  He is
     2:playing mind games with you and Cliff in order to get some fun for his
     3:money.  He will pay you, I guarantee it.
     4:        Do you think JT is just playing Devil's advocate with us?  Your
     5:posts, as always are excellent.  The only place I have to go with my posts
     6:are UP.
     7:                                Take care,
     8:                                Rod

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4805
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Cliff/last
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 09:46:50

    Remember:

         This is my rifle,
         and this is is my gun.
         This one's for fighting,
         and this one's for fun!

    ?????

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1953
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Firearms
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 09:49:29

    Rod, don't you think fast shooting and fast reloading can be an art?

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 1954
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gary/fast
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:16:02

            Yes.
    I like the idea of an automatic with clips.  Carry two or three pre-loaded
    clips and when one becomes empty, just shove another in.  I have never had
    an automatic that jambed on me although I don't take them apart and mess
    with them either.
            In the mid-sixties, I owned an Italian 6.5 rifle, the same type that
    was used by Oswald in Dallas.  It was like firing a blunder buss when using
    the military loads.  I don't see how Oswald could have fired that fast and
    that accurate with his.  It had one hell of a kick and made a gigantic loud
    report.
                                    Rod

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 55738
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Choices
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:00:48

            From what you are saying Cliff, it sounds like you would favor
    abolishing freedom of religion, as long as your own beliefs became the
    official state religion.  In fact, I think that would be a good [V]ote:

    Would you favor ammending the Constitution to allow the government to
    establish and control the free exercise of religion, if your own religion
    was the one that would be established?
    [A] Yes
    [B] No

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 55739
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:11:10

        My main objection to "In God We Trust" on the currency is that it's
    inaccurate -- I don't trust in God, and a lot of other people don't, either.
    "Some of Us Trust in God" would be better.  Or even "Most of Us Trust in
    God."

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 55740
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:15:41

       I agree that forbiding the government from make laws regarding the free
    exercise of religion was not originaly intended to cover things like
    atheism.  The intent was more towards allowing you to attend any good
    Protestant church that you wanted to.  The founding fathers also intended
    for slavery to be legal, and they also intended to keep women out of
    political office, or even permit them to vote.  These are a few reasons why
    I don't like the "original intent" method of interperting the Constitution.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 55741
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod the thinker
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 10:08:14

    Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw
    haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw HAW haw haw haw haw haw
    haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw!

    Message: 55742
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hamilton
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 10:27:43

    No, the purpose of the religion clauses in the First Amendment was not
    "towards allowing you to attend any good Protestant church that you wanted
    to."  I suggest you study a little history before you sit in judgment of the
    Founding Fathers of this nation.  The purpose of the religion clauses was to
    unite a diverse group of states of different religions.  (Not all of which,
    I might add, were Protestent:  Maryland was settled by Catholics.)  Now,
    many things have changed since 1791:  The Constitution has been amended to
    bar states from violating the rights of their citizens, and the religion
    clauses of the First Amendment have been incorporated into the 14th
    Amendment.  This is entirely appropriate, particularly given that the
    populations of most individual states are as religiously diverse as the
    whole nation was at its founding.  There are also substantial populations of
    non-Christians:  Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, atheists, and so on.  So the
    application of the First Amendment has changed somewhat, but the meaning
    remains the same:  its purpose is to protect Americans from persecution on
    the basis of religion.

    To suggest that you are being persecuted by the appearance of a motto on our
    currency, which merely recognizes the importance of religion in our history
    and culture, is absurd.

    Message: 55743
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Alan
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 11:45:45

    A-L-A-N
            That is NOT what I said....   I said the "In God We Trust" does not
    back or support any particular religion.  Many Religions have a God!  The
    fact is in this country the majority are Christians.   You and anyone
    else in this country have the right to believe in what they want, and I want
    it to remain that way.

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    P.S.  I think J.T. has said it best...  go back and read his posts from the
    past few days.  And ABSORB them!

    Message: 55744
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Chomsky
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 14:03:13

      The higher truths of the state religion, which blinded
    intelligence to the most elementary facts, also pervade the
    mainstream scholarly literature, where we find as a point of
    doctrine that Vietnamese Communists were "enflamed" by Stalin
    after World War II (Walt Rostow) and that US intervention was
    "aimed at forestalling a southern expansion of Chinese
    communism" (John King Fairbank; an analytic error, this
    distinguished historian and critic of the war believes).  In
    the real world, the Vietnamese Communists did not need Stalin
    to "enflame" them; French tyranny and then US subversion and
    aggression sufficed.  And it was clear enough, early on, that
    far from being an agency of Chinese expansionism, Vietnamese
    nationalism (whether Communist or not) would be an obstacle
    to it.  The role of Stalin and Mao in the US doctrinal system
    was to legitimate the US assault, motivated on quite
    different grounds, as internal documents make clear.
      When the attempt to subdue South Vietnam failed, the US
    widened the war to all of Indochina in a manner that
    predictably led to eventual North Vietnamese dominance after
    desperately blocking efforts on all sides to neutralize
    South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.  After failing in its
    larger aims, the US devoted itself to maximizing suffering
    and repression in the societies that it had destroyed, and
    helping to drive them more firmly into the hands of the USSR
    by systematically closing off all other options, insofar as
    possible.
      Much the same was true as the US sought to overcome the
    heresy of capitalist democracy in Guatemala, which threatened
    the interests of US corporations.  Guatemala was declared an
    agency of the global Communist conspiracy and serious threats
    were mounted against it, including even the dispatch of
    nuclear armed SAC bombers to Nicaragua, "meant, it would
    appear, as a signal of American commitment."  When in
    desperation the Guatemalan government sought military aid
    from the Soviet bloc, much to the delight of the US
    government, this fact was used as part of the official
    justification for restoring a military dictatorship.  Shortly
    before the CIA coup, Guatemalan Foreign Minister Toriello
    commented accurately that US policy amounts to
         cataloguing as 'Communism' every manifestation of
         nationalism or economic independence, any desire for
         social progress, any intellectual curiousity, and any
         interest in progressive or liberal reforms... any Latin
         American government that exerts itself to bring about a
         truly national program which affects the interests of
         the powerful foreign companies, in whose hands the
         wealth and the basic resources in large part repose in
         Latin America, will be pointed out as Communist; it will
         be accused of being a threat to continental security and
         making a breach in continental solidarity, and so will
         be threatened with foreign intervention.
      Toriello's words were applauded by his Latin American
    colleagues, who then proceeded to line up against him in
    support of John Foster Dulles' resolution opposing the threat
    of "international communism" in Guatemala (issued in Caracas,
    the capital of one of the most notorious dictatorships in the
    continent), in the hope of receiving US aid.

    Message: 55747
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 16:12:52

    Your idea that "the majority RULES!" bothers me.  While I agree that the
    debate over the slogan on currency is trivial, that argument is weak.  This
    country was founded on the ideal of majority will balanced against minority
    rights.  For example, if the majority feels that no one should own a gun,
    does the government have the right to take away your firearms?
    The argument that most people agree with a certain policy or action is not
    strong unless it is also shown that this action does not violate individual
    rights.

    Message: 55748
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Burkhart
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 16:17:41

    Well, no one has shown that the presence of the motto "In God We Trust" on
    our currency violates anyone's rights.

    Message: 55749
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Chit Chat
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:21:33

            I don't know any atheists who would go so far as to burn bibles
    although I do know some Christians who have been trying to burn Mark Twain's
    books for quite a while.
            I had several children when I was a Christian and several when I was
    an agnostic, several more when I became an atheist.......does this mean that
    the ones who were born when I was religions, should be religious, et cetera?
            If our founding fathers were religious does this mean there is no
    change.  Get the point?
                                    Rod

    Message: 55750
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT/haw
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:23:08

            Now that was one of your more intelligent and to the point messages.
    What dictionary did you use?
            (55741)
                                            Rod

    Message: 55751
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:25:38

            How do you know that the purpose of the motto, "In God We Trust",
    was put there to merely recognize the importance of religion in our history
    and culture?
            I do believe that the motto violates the rights of atheists,
    agnostics and others who do not believe in a god.  I agree it is somewhat
    trivial but I think it would be better if the motto was removed from our
    currency.
                                    Rod

    Message: 55752
    Author: Sloan Tash
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Computer Nerds
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 19:39:49

    To being with anyone that spends there time in their rooms calling up bbs,
    etc. during their spare time must be a complete and total nerd to begin
    with, but to ask a person to pay $10.00 for the privillage to call and be
    associated with you fucking (excuse the language) geeks, is almost
    unthinkable. I mean reallistically, do really think you have the right to
    ask these poor slobs for their allowance?? I mean the $5.00 a week their
    mom's give them to clean their rooms and take out the garbage means alot to
    these people.. It's the chance to goto skateland and go rolling skating on a
    Saturday night instead of living on their computer on the weekend. I think
    you should pay these nerds to call up your board.. Think about it you were
    once and probally still are a fucking computer nerd.. Think what you felt
    like when you were a kid and all the other kids picked on you and threw
    garbage at you when you walked down the halls at school.. You should
    encourage these geeks to get out of their bedrooms and try to make some
    friends ( maybe other geeks, even female geeks (think about it some of you
    nerds might be able to accually see what you've been jerking off to in real
    life, if you tried talking to a girl.. the girls that talk to you might be
    as ugly as sin, but they are real girls and they are better then some porno
    magazine...)

    all I have to say is get a life.. please, find out that the true meaning of
    sex is not to be found in the bathroom alone, but with a girl (even an ugly
    one ) in the bedroom.        -----] a concerned citizen

    Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Sloan

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:        I noticed that your above message did not cost you a single penny
     2:and no one will ask you for one.  SO, what is your problem?
     3:                                Rod
     4:P.S.  I liked your message though, it was neat.  Wanna join Apollo?  Only
     5:ten buck a year which is only cleaning your room twice and taking out the
     6:garbage a few times.  I haven't been out of my room in weeks because I can't
     7:figure out how to get out of this program.
     8:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 55753

    Bulletin Board command:EP

    You chose Politics

    Subject:MOTTO

          I do not believe that a legitimate government, one that is of
    the people, for the people and by the people should sponsor any cause
    where it concerns beliefs systems of its people.  Printing a motto on
    its paper currency that espouses a deity, any deity, is in my opinion
    in violation of government purpose.  Even if a vote reflected that 200
    million people of this nation wanted a religious motto on its currency
    and 50 million did not, then there should be no motto.

          David Burkhart made the point very clear in his firearm analogy
    and from this I hope you can understand that when it comes to religion,
    the rights of the minorities should be respected.  Religion has no
    business in our government.

          James Taranto keeps saying that the motto is solely historical.
    I say that some die hard religionist put this illegal saying on our
    money.  Just because some of our Founding Fathers were confused does
    not mean the saying should remain for as long as our country is
    solvent.  I say that it slants the deck where our youth are concerned.
    I do not believe they could tell the difference between historical and
    advertisement.

    The message is 55754

    Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:JT

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:        Very clever.  You gave me a haw for every year of my life plus you
     2:capitalized the thirty-third HAW, the year I turned atheist.  Thanks.
     3:                                Rod
     4:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 55755

    To send mail to operator use [SYSOP]
    First name:JAMES
    Last name:TARANTO
    Send mail to James Taranto:Yes

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:        I love you.

    WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 518
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Mike Farter
    Subject: Last 2
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:37:20

    We all know that Mike doesn't have anything creative to say about any
    conversation.

    Message: 519
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Hawley Crock Smith
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:32:56

            Don't tell me that Mike dwells on the negative, I though that was
    reserved for me alone.  Mike has his lord helping him with his messages, I
    don't have anybody.
                                    Rod

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