### Apollo BBS Archive - October 2 - 3, 1989

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 61348
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:10:37

    It doesn't say unborn babies are going to heaven. In fact, it says they
    won't.  Is 'perish' equivalent to 'hell' to you?  If not, what does one have
    to do to go to hell instead of 'perish' as John says?

    Message: 61349
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: More Thornburg
    Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:11:55

    Gee, I guess this time it is *you* who is putting limits on God's power.

    *Of course* he could create people with free will who would never choose
    evil.  What's wrong with your thinking?  Ever met a goody-two-shoes?

    Message: 61350
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Baptist gunfights!
    Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:12:37

    I just heard on the news that a deacon in a Baptist church shot two others
    (dead?) with a handgun.  Good thing it wasn't an assault rifle.

    Message: 61351
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject:  Farts SIG
    Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:13:39

    Phew!  I'm glad I don't qualify.  Please, Cliff, next year make it for those
    over 36, and in '91 for those over 37 ...

    Message: 61352
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 06:16:48

     You're right Cliff. I have found nothing to like about Evan Mecham. He has
    cost the people of this state more money for nothing delivered than any
    other single individual ever has, and STILL doesn't know when he's beat.
     If we were to adopt some of his "don't spend until you've got the money"
    plans, ASU west would still be a vacant field, as well as some other
    projects that have been built on a lease-purchase agreement, and when and if
    the state ever did get around to building them, they would cost 3-4 times as
    much as they are costing us.
     104 & 105. I don't have my booklet with me, but if those are the props
    dealing with the state retirement funds, they are the only props that
    benefit at least some of the little people, and are worthy of a yes vote. If
    they are the ones dealing with the purchase and preservation of historic and
    other sites, it is another case of the government digging yet deeper into
    our pockets for money that should come from private interests. If you (and I
    use the generic "you") want to restore and preserve a 100 year old building,
    that's great. Go for it! Just don't do it with my money, because frankly, I
    couldn't care less about so-called "heritage". Besides, one of the buildings
    that is on the list for restoration just happens to be Terry Goddard's home.
    (Cute, eh?)

    Message: 61353
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck on Johnson
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 06:19:10

     I think I would call your hitchiker a liar, since Paul Johnson is only in
    his very early thirties at the most, and would be too young to have a son in
    that age group.

    Message: 61354
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/praying
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 09:24:04

    Catholics do not pray to dead people. They pray to people they fully believe
    are in Heaven and close to God and Jesus - to ask their help - to be an
    intermediate between them and God. Oh yes, they pray to God too, but lets
    face it, we need all the help we can get! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I do not know what 'Letters of indulgence' means - forgot. Clue me in.
    Purgatory is just a stopping off place to work off those venial sins so you
    can be pure to go to Heaven.

    Message: 61355
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/Rod
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 09:26:48

    Rod is right Bob - the Bible did come from the Catholics of ages past. In
    fact, they were the ONLY religion for centuries. Wouldn't you indeed then
    say that they are the only true religion and all of the rest of you are
    worshiping at the wrong alter? Heh heh. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61357
    Author: Evilest Indulgence
    Category: Politics
    Subject: MLK day
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 11:18:23

    Do you think that the people of the state should get to vote on whether
    there should be a MLK holiday?

    Message: 61358
    Author: Evilest Indulgence
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Homosexuals
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 11:21:12

    Why is American society so intolerant?

    Message: 61359
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:30:18

    Why not?

    Message: 61360
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Bible
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:41:59

    Re:  "The Bible that you use came from the Catholics of ages past."

    Where did you hear that?  The Bible I use has nothing to do the the group
    called the Roman Catholic Church.  Actually I use a number of different
    translations in my studies, but mainly the NAS & the NIV.

    Message: 61361
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:54:39

    Re:  "In fact, it says they won't.  Is 'perish' equivalent to 'hell' to
    you?"

    John 3:16 says that unborn babies won't go to heaven??

    I don't think we are communicating here.  I guess that I could agree that
    "perish" is more or less equivalent to "hell".  What I'm afraid of here is
    that you will somehow twist this around to say something I didn't mean.  I
    can perceive an attitude in you that is hostile toward God and Christianity
    as you understand it, which is sure different than I understand it.  I think
    your purpose here is to ridicule and harass.  This is not a general
    discussion between people who could each learn from the other as it should
    be.  As long as you insist that God says that all unborn babies go to hell,
    you are beyond any help I can give.

    Message: 61362
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dag
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:59:58

    Re:  "What's wrong with your thinking?"

    Since you disagree with me, I'm sure you think my thinking all screwed up.
    I'm not perfect, but I don't see a problem with my logic or thinking.  Maybe
    you could rephrase your questions.  Sometimes I do have a problem when
    people talk to me in a condescending manner.

    Re:  "Ever met a goody-two-shoes?"

    Probably.

    Re:  "it is *you* who is putting limits on God's power."

    In what way?

    Message: 61363
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:06:29

    Re:  "a deacon in a Baptist church shot two others
    (dead?) with a handgun"

    If you are evaluating or judging God by the actions of people who are
    obviously unbalanced, I can see why you might hate him.  But is that
    logical?  Would you evaluate or judge the leader of a country in the same
    way because some of his citizens are wicked?  Would you think it fair if
    someone judged you in the same way if some of your progenies turned out to
    be wicked?

    Message: 61364
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:10:05

    Re:  "Catholics do not pray to dead people."

    Spoken like a true Catholic Ann!  Catholics also deny worshiping statues of
    Mary, etc. (idols).

    But even though I disagree with the RRC, I do not want to get started on
    this.  I doubt if it would lead to any good.

    Message: 61365
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:11:17

    Re:  "the Bible did come from the Catholics of ages past. In
    fact, they were the ONLY religion for centuries."

    Where do you guys get this stuff??

    I disagree on both statements!

    Message: 61366
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog? Hostile??
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:27:01

            I have never know this mild mannered dog to ever growl so much
    before.  I don't know what has come over him since on all previous occasions
    he has been what I would call a friendly licker that never bites.  Maybe
    B-Dog has caught rabies or something.  In person he is a wagger.... or was
    that juggler?  No matter...same thing!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61367
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 15:54:53

    I have decided to make some statements concerning salvation because of the
    religious chit chat that has been going on lately.  My purpose is to clarify
    what I believe and what I think the Bible says.  I am not an expert on the
    Bible, and I have had no formal schooling, but I have read the Bible cover
    to cover a number of times and have studied it for years.  There are a lot
    of things the Bible does not say.  Many situations are not even addressed.
    In these cases I make an evaluation based on the context of similar subjects
    and the character of God.  Some of my beliefs may seem unorthodox, because
    they are based on what the Bible says and not on what religious
    organizations say.  These statements are very condensed and simplified; it
    is hard to cover all the Bible says on salvation in a few short posts.  All
    quotes are from the NIV Bible.

    John 5:24  "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who
    sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from
    death to life."

    I think these verses tells us that anyone who hears and believes the gospel
    (good news) will not go to hell but will go to heaven.

    John 3:16-18  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For
    God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save
    the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
    whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not
    believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

    Again, if we believe the gospel, we will go to heaven.  If you refuse to
    believe, you are condemned and will go to hell.

    Acts 16:30  "He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be
    saved?"  They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be
    saved--you and your household."

    The principle applies to everyone.  Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you
    will go to heaven instead of hell.

    Commentary:
    Are you saying that all one has to do is just believe in Jesus Christ,
    believe the gospel and they will go to heaven?  Yes.

    It sounds too easy; it sounds too good to be true.

    That's why it is called the "good news".

    Does that mean we can just continue to sin all we want and still be saved?
    No.  Once you are saved, you will be changed.

    2 Corinthians 5:17  "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new
    creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

    Once changed, you will have a desire to do the things that please God.  You
    can still sin and do wicked things, but you will feel bad about it.  If you
    can sin against God and not feel bad about it, you have not been saved.

    Romans 6:1  "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace
    may increase?  By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any
    longer?"

    What if we do sin?  What should we do?

    1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive
    us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    What about babies and others who do not have the capacity to "hear and
    believe"?  Do they go to hell?

    The Bible does not specifically say.  It is almost as if God were saying,
    "You be concerned about your soul; I will take care of the souls of babies
    and others."

    I cannot believe for a moment that Jesus, who said,

    Matthew 19:14  Jesus said, "Let the little [children] come to me, and do not
    hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

    would not have a special plan to cover babies and others.

    Consider what David said when his baby died shortly after birth,

    2 Samuel 12:22-23  He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted
    and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the
    child live.'  But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him
    back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

    In the last sentence David is saying he would see his child again in heaven.

    God is not some evil monster as some would like to portray him.  He only
    asks two basic things, that we love him and our fellow man.

    Matthew 22:36-40  "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
    Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
    your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest
    commandment.  And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
    All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    I would encourage anyone, whether you agree or disagree with the above, to
    read the Bible and see what it says.  Don't believe what I tell you; don't
    believe what others tell you.  I'm continually amazed at what people claim
    the Bible says.  Read it for yourself!  Try starting with the Gospel of
    John.  I welcome questions and comments.  If you want to argue, don't
    bother.*

    Message: 61372
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Savage on Johnson
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 17:26:58

    SPLAT!!

    Obviously he was a liar.  Did you actually entertain the notion that he was
    telling the truth?  There was no need to calculate ages in order to
    determine this.

    Message: 61373
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 19:04:19

    Well, it is clear to everyone that you neither listen nor want to hear any
    more.  I will consider wasting my time for just one last try to get you to
    pay attention.  I've killed a tree printing off your last bunch of messages.

    Message: 61374
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Bob T. /Dog?
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 19:26:00

            GREAT posts and well said Bob... Only a compleate moron would not
    understand what is said in those few verses.  I can't see where the
    unbelievers get hate and anger from...  They must fear truth.

            B-Dog... So you "Killed a tree PRINTING them"....  Did you by chance
    READ them as well?  Are you having a problem?  Give me a call, sounds like
    you are about to crack.  I want to help if I can....  Neither Bob nor I wish
    you harm.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61375
    Author: $ Robert Knee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 20:26:23

    I am fed up with pointless religious arguments.  It has already been
    determined that God does not exist, although this being America, you are
    free to continue believing in him if you so desire.  So why beat a dead
    horse?  Let's talk about something more productive, say football.

    The Phoenix Cardinals are very disappointing.  They couldn't even beat the
    San Diego Chargers!  What can ya do?

    Message: 61376
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 10/02/89  Time: 20:39:23

    If you're fed up, then why post? Just because you don't know God will
    not make the "determination" he doesn't exist. Nor do Radio waves.
    Whu beat a dea horse with the Cardinals?
    If you want pro-neanderthal discussion, go to the games.

    Message: 61377
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Knee theology
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 06:38:13

     While we are at opposite ends of the spectrum concerning God, we do agree
    concerning the Bidwell bunch.
     I hate (not really) to be an I-told-you-so, but I said over a year ago that
    the Cards would fail in Phoenix, if for no other reason than Phoenix would
    not support a loser. I think the home opener, with some 30,000 vacant seats,
    sort of proved my point. A losing team, combined with Bidwell's greed, will
    spell their doom.
     And today is the day we have the opportunity to say a resounding NO!!! to
    Terrible Terry's bid for a $100 million dollar baseball fiasco.
     One of the best arguments I have heard against prop 1, interestingly enough
    came from a couple of proponents of the stadium. Two arguments, actually.
    One said, when asked about private funding for the project, that it had been
    attempted without success for over 3 years. If the smart money won't go for
    it, why? Because it is obviously a loser. So then, why should we support it?
    Again, it was said just yesterday on KFYI, that the stadium, once built,
    would LOSE about $5 million a year! This sounds like a contradiction of the
    rosy picture that Goddard and Garagiola paint, doesn't it?
     I can hardly wait to get to the polls this morning!

    Message: 61378
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/Catholics
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:35:26

    They do not worship statues either. This is a missconception of all
    non-Catholics and continues to persist.
    I am a former Catholic. I never worshipped a statue in my life. Ha.
                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61379
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Catholics
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:40:32

    I could be wrong, but wasn't the first religion that broke away from the
    original Catholic church Lutheran? (Martin Luther?)
    What was then the first religion if it wasn't Catholic? I think it started
    out Catholic and then became Roman Catholic. That's when the trouble
    started! Still going on! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61380
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/games
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:45:57

    I think Phoenix is too hot for either football or baseball. Can you imagine
    going to a base ball game in July? I wouldn't. Now hockey is another story!
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61381
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: beating DEA horses
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 10:11:49

    Why indeed? Please forgive my ignorance, but, being a new user, I'm
    fascinated by the vast assortment of malapropisms you employ.  What does the
    sentence "Just because you don't know God will not make the "determination"
    he doesn't exist." mean?  What is a Radio, as opposed to a radio?  And I'm
    rather puzzled by this sentence, too:  "Whu beat a dea horse with the
    Cardinals?" Who, is Whu?  A Chinese national?  Is he beating the dea (or is
    that DEA...it's so difficult to tell, given your capricious use of
    capitalisation) horse with members of a sports club, or a flock of birds?
    I'm puzzled by the use of the interrogative tone in this sentence.  Is the
    question rhetorical?  I don't recall a previous reference to this Whu chap.
    Also -- what, precisely, is a "pro-neanderthal" (ah, elusive grammar)
    discussion?  And who is taking the anti-Neanderthal stance?

    Message: 61382
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sysop on B-Dog
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 10:18:44

    Yes, the warning signs are all there.  It's obvious he's close to a nervous
    breakdown...

    Beau Dog!  Get help before it's too late!  And stop fearing truth.  You know
    that scientific rationalism is just a rediculous attempt by the immoral to
    escape the just wrath of the Almighty.

    Message: 61383
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: MLK day
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 11:06:56

    This was just a quicky [V]ote... I am not sure what the numbers prove.
    I would have rather had seen a Yes & No [V]ote on this subject.
    But here are the results anyway.

    Only Arizona residents need [V]ote this one:

    Recently the State of Arizona got its own "King Holiday"....  What best
    fits your thoughts on this:

    [A]  We needed it, and I am for it!
    [B]  We did not need this holiday.
    [C]  We could have picked a better person to honor than M.L.K.
    [D]  We needed it, but I don't like the way it was implemented (Greed)

    [E]  I am not going to [V]ote this question!  (sulk)

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 6    [B] 4    [C] 6    [D] 3    [E] 4

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    The NEW [V]ote is: Did you go to the polls and [V]ote in the OCT 3rd
    election?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61384
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: New [V]ote
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 11:18:33

    This is for Arizona, Phoenix residents only....

    October 3, 1989 Mayor & Council - Special Election

    [A] I did my part and VOTED!  (Now I have the right to bitch)
    [B] I was registered to vote in this election....but did not do so!
    [C] I live in the VOTE area, but I am not registered.
    [D] I do NOT live in the area, so I could not vote.

    How do you vote [A-D] or [CR] to abort:$

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 1    [B] 0    [C] 0    [D] 0

    I just posted the above as the new [V]ote...  I did MY part!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61385
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 13:13:43

    How did you vote?

    Message: 61386
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 14:51:43

    Re:  "Well, it is clear to everyone that you neither listen nor want to
    hear"

    I'm sorry you feel that about it.

    Re:  "I've killed a tree printing off your last bunch of messages."

    I'm sorry your printer is acting up.

    Message: 61387
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 14:58:17

    Re:  "I never worshipped a statue in my life."

    Neither did I, but then I have never been a Catholic.

    I guess it depends on one's definition of "worship".  When I see a person
    down on their knees with their hands clasped in the traditional position of
    prayer, before a statue of Mary, that fits my definition or worship.

    According to good ol' Webster:
    Worship - The reverent love and allegiance accorded a deity, idol, or sacred
    object.

    It seems to fit.

    Message: 61388
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 15:02:39

    Re:  "What was then the first religion if it wasn't Catholic?"

    This is more of a historical question rather than a religious one.  And
    history was never one of my strong points.  I'm not sure when the Catholics
    came along.  I do not believe Peter knew anything about it.  He was probably
    very surprised when he first heard he was the first pope.

    Peter, "I'm the what??"  "A pope??"  "What's that??"

    Message: 61389
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 15:04:13

    Re:  ""Whu beat a dea horse with the Cardinals?" Who, is Whu?  A Chinese
    national?"

    How about this one?  "Do you walk to work or take your lunch?"

    Message: 61390
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/Information
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 20:35:00

    Listed below is information I gathered from the Library at A.S.U.  The
    first paragraph is from 'History of Books'.
    Even so, few people could read during the Middle Ages, and virtually all
    the manuscripts, knowledge, and literature of the ancient world, as well as
    the Bible and the great texts of Christendom, were produced and preserved in
    monasteries. The great medieval scriptoria reflected the efforts of many
    monks working together, as well as the labors of theologians, skilled
    illuminators, and scribes.  A remarkable number of copies of works, both
    secular and religious, were produced by hand copying.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      The Authority of the Bible.

    Protestants have always made much of the Bible, but acceptance of its
    authority has not led to unanimity among them. Differing interpretations of
    the same Bible have produced the most divided movement of any in the great
    world religions, as hundreds of sects in at least a dozen great Protestant
    families of churches (Anglicanism, CONGREGATIONALISM, METHODISM,
    PRESBYTERIANISM, Lutheranism, the BAPTIST churches, and the like) compete in
    free societies.  Attitudes toward the bible in contemporary protestantism
    range from belief in its literal truth on the fundamentalist end of the
    spectrum (see FUNDAMENTALISM) to extremely free interpretations among
    liberal Protestants.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Message: 61391
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/last
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 20:37:10

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    TITLE(s):        Roman Catholic church
    The Roman Catholic church is the largest and oldest church within
    Christianity.

    Just thought you'd like to know.  I have some more information on the
    beginnings of the bible and I'll have to dig it up.  -Rod

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