### Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 16, 1990

    Message: 63353
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 11:01:20

    Adolph Hitler served in World War 1.  It was a war of economics and I
    might add, a very miserable war.  It was drudgery, it was cruel, it was
    bloody and it warped the minds of many people, like all wars do.  He came
    out of that war into a country that had been defeated and was in the depth
    of depression.  He, like most others did not know where his next potato or
    pat of margarine was coming from.  It was the times, my friend, the
    environment along with the personal experiences of that individual.  He was
    warped but to be unwarped in an extremely warped environment would take the
    fortitude of a god.

    He was once a small baby crawling on the kitchen floor and reaching for the
    breast of his mother and a pat from his father.  He like happy and good
    things as all children do.  He just didn't say, one day, 'Hey, I think I
    will be an evil person just for the hell of it.'  I will hurt and kill and
    make people miserable and hungry.

    Adolph, like so many others was caught up in the times.  He reacted the
    best way he knew how.  He blew it but thus far so has everyone else.

    How many living things were killed, maimed and tortured by U.S.
    Imperialism in Viet Namn, Loas, Cambodia and many other places in the last
    decade alone?  How many minds, on both sides, have been permanently damaged
    by those actions?  How many family members saw a loved one blown apart in
    the name of WHAT?  They didn't even know.

    Message: 63354
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 11:02:23

    There are a lot of warped people in this society because of bad environment
    and we do hear, from time to time, about a vet who went wild from their
    flashback and committed violence.  It is not uncommon.  Many of them cannot
    hold a job.  Many are confined to V.A. Hospitals in mental wards.

    Can you name someone who has suffered more than Hitler or Manson?  And why
    is it that people who have disfigured faces or are ugly to begin with more
    often than so-called handsome people are more likely to become a criminal
    element?  It is because of the way they are treated by the mass majority.
    They are shunned and made to feel worthless.

    Who is or who was a sadistic, psychopathic individual that led a relative
    ordinary life?

    Message: 63355
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 14:31:03

    Re:  "If you have assumed that is what I intend to do, you are quite
    correct."

    I have no idea what you intend to do.  At first I thought you would try to
    back up your unkind accusation, but you haven't.  I can only assume you
    either can't or you were only speaking tongue-in-cheek.

    Re:  "I propose to show that you use "mind-gymnastics" in defense of a
    position I think you will take with respect to literal interpretation of the
    Bible."

    I can't believe you said it again.  When are you going to do it and quit
    talking about doing it?

    Re:  "I started this by asking you a question about your belief of the age
    of the universe."

    I thought we were going to talk about the literal interpretation of the
    Bible?  I haven't the faintest idea of how old the universe is.

    Shall I take a guess?  How about 100 billion years old?

    (I can hardly wait to see how you prove "mind-gymnastics" from this
    unrelated question.)

    Message: 63356
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cancer
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 14:44:14

    Is anyone here walking up South Mountain for the cancer fund this weekend?
    My whole family will be there.

    Message: 63357
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Hitler
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 14:59:21

    Bullpucky!  Hitler had a warped mind from day one!  It was in his genes...
    Remember, Hitler tried to wipe out the Jewish race.  How many family members
    saw a loved one gassed, and in the name of WHAT?  They didn't even
    understand.

    How many people died in Vietnam and Cambodia after US troops pulled out?
    Do not blame everything on Imperialism or Capitalism.

    Rod...Take a look at the world, your communist ideals have failed.

    Message: 63358
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 15:37:00

    Just give this society another 10 years and you'll be eating your
    opinion.

    Message: 63359
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa Dee
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 15:39:30

    If I'm so blind, what are you doing to prevent suicide?
    The same idiots with the same leprous diatribe are spewing
    bull$hit into the open mouths of wailing youth.
    ...and they aren't stopping anything.

    So if I'm so blind, tell me how you are so enlightened...

    Message: 63360
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 17:31:17

    Right.

    Message: 63361
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: News Today
    Subject: The Trumps
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 17:32:02

    Well, Donald and Ivana are untie-ing the knot.  Pop! Goes the media!

    Message: 63362
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 17:35:23

         I don't know where I stand on capital punishment.  There are good
    arguments on both sides.

    Message: 63363
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Cambodia
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 19:09:04

    Pol Pot used the US invasion and meddling to stir up the people.  One could
    easily blame part of that horror on our gov't.

    Message: 63364
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob's lob's
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 21:16:18

    Well, Bob, I can't prove YOU use mind-gymnastics if you won't cooperate.
    If you are going to take reasonable positions, I'll just have to go
    find someone who doesn't.

    Message: 63366
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Larry
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 21:53:44

    You are a self-deluding fool.  All of us were once children, just as those
    of us who survive grow old.  This does not make children or old people
    inherently innocent, good, or nice.
    A lot of people came out of WWI carrying traumatic experiences.  They went
    back to living ordinary lives as best as they could.  They did not pick a
    minority to exterminate.  You are a twit.  Hitler merely exploited the
    the prejudices, fears, and greed of his people, intimidating, killing, or
    jailing the rest, for his own evil purposes: to cause suffering, and to make
    money and gain power from the suffering he caused.

    I doubt that I will respond to any more of your messages on the subject,
    since you are obviously making no attempt at rational analysis.

    Message: 63367
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Larry
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 22:01:00

    A relatively large number of Viet vets have suffered trauma from their
    experiences, and this can manifest itself in "flashbacks."  Yet almost no
    Viet vets go violently antisocial.  This indicates that some other factor is
    involved.  All too often, "flashbacks" are used in the same way that
    childhood or environmental trauma is used: as an excuse.
    Can I name someone who has suffered more than Hitler?  Sure, I can name
    about six million people.  As for Manson, how about Sharon Tate and the
    other victims.  Manson was never stabbed to death, or had his entrails (in
    Tate's case, her unborn child) ripped out of her.
    As for ugly and handsome people, your theory is absurd.  Aside from the fact
    that there are lots of ugly people who are not sociopaths (the majority, in
    fact), I doubt if even a liberal sociologist would dare make such an
    assertion.  He would be laughed out of the profession.
    Furthermore, most criminals are of ordinary appearance, neither particularly
    ugly nor particularly good looking.  Though there are in fact people of
    exceptional good looks who commit some quite vile crimes.
    Plenty of sadistic, psychopathic individuals lead relatively ordinary lives.
    What was extraordinary about Hitler's life?  I don't recall reading any
    biographies indicating that he was subjected to horrible beatings or
    tortures as a child.
    I know it's scary for you to admit that there are people who behave like
    monsters and have nothing even approaching a legitimate excuse, but it is
    time to turn and face reality.

    Message: 63368
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: the 15th again....
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 23:40:53

            Today (yawn) Apollo was backed up in full to fifteen 3.5 disks.
    Just in case.......

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 63369
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: For sale
    Subject: 9mm loads
    Date: 02/15/90  Time: 23:57:22

            We are setting up a die set to do 223 ammo...and ran out of gun-fund
    loot....  so since I have an excess amount of 9mm loads with 115 gr FMJ
    (Full Metal Jacket) using 4.5 Gr of 231 powder...  we will sell a few.
            50 rounds for $8.50 with brass exchange....   Limit of 50 to first
    time customers to see if they even like the load first.  This is a mediam
    load, good for practice with out hammering your hands to death.

            This offer is a limited trial offer and may not be repeated.

    Call me at 843-3346

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  We will take 380 brass in place of the 9mm brass since we need it
    more.

    Message: 63370
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: PRISON
    Date: 02/16/90  Time: 00:50:38

         Relieve prison overcrowding by releasing those people convicted of
    crimes that shouldn't be "crimes" in the first place.  Like a guy put away
    for eight years for possession of marijuana.  If someone commits a crime
    against ANOTHER person, that person should be punished as determined by our
    laws.  If a person commits a "crime" against him/herself why should our law
    enforcement agencies have jurisdiction over it?  The gov't shouldn't have
    jurisdiction over our bodies.  They're ours, we can do as we please with
    them.
         Make an attempt to make the prison system more self-sufficent.  No, not
    prison "summer camps" but I see nothing wrong with farming, etc. if
    conducted in a structured manner. (I'd like to see more on here about this
    prison experiment someone posted info on.....)  Why should you & I support
    these people - with the amount of manpower in the prison system it should be
    more self-sufficent.

         Stop lawyermania.  I can't agree with Paul that execution should
    immediately follow the conviction - appeals are sometimes necessary.
    Appeals shouldn't take 10 or more years, however.  I don't have a pat answer
    for this, I don't think there is one.  Maybe someone more acquainted with
    our legal system could make suggestions as to what direction to take.

         That's my two-cents worth on prisons.

    Message: 63371
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: $uper $aver Card
    Date: 02/16/90  Time: 01:48:09

            We have a stack of $uper $aver cards from Shadow MTN. S.A.D.D.
    (Students Against Drunk Drivers) and Say NO to drugs and alcohol.
    These are discount cards that can be used at some local businesses.
    Good for 20% off at all Carls Jr and Arby's, plus several other merchants.

    We are to point out these cards will also get you one week FREE training at
    American Karate (15227 N 32nd St. (at Greenway)) 971-9810)

    The cards expire March 31st.

    Camelback Hospitals Helpline 253-1334 (sponsor)

    Anyway...  they are FREE to anyone who wishes to pick one up...  I have
    plenty!

            *=* Say NO to Drugs & Alcohol *=*

    Message: 63372
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/16/90  Time: 02:06:15

    In your last message to me you say:

        "For most people, once you're brought up with a value-system
    (especially an extreme one), it takes a lot of experience and
    self-evaluation to change that value system."

    What you are saying here is what I have been trying to make clear all
    along.  Children can, and often are, warped by their parents.  In other
    words their environment has permanently affected them.

    I am tired at the moment but I will answer the remainder of your post at my
    next log on.

    Should we not then punish the parents who warped the children in the first
    place.  Or wait a minute, what if the parents of the parents are the guilty
    ones.  Or could it be that the parents of the parents of the parents...etc.
    passed on a ......

    This whole punishment, just the word itself, rings of a sick mentality, a
    Hitler type mentality, if you will.  But hey, that's the type of world we
    live in and it is up to us to make it better, right?

    It all sounds like a 'tit for tat' system: you steal my dog, I'll steal
    your cat, or an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth.  It could never end.  It
    is like a loop, a bad loop.  It has to change if we are going to advance
    beyond illiteracy.

    And whoever it was that said that all convicted felons, including people
    who deal in drugs should be put to death....well this really took
    intelligence of the type I am talking about.  Imagine raising children with
    these views.  This is my whole point....the person who made that statement
    obviously believes it and as such would pass it on to a child who may then
    believe it.  That child may one day become President or worse yet a person
    who controls the power of the President.  Shudders!

    The above is my whole point and unless we know what Hitlers and Manson's
    youth were like we cannot honestly judge.  Of course if we read about it in
    the newspaper or hear it on the 5 o'clock news it must be true, right?

    Later......

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    Caller # 144912 (3 today)
    It is now 02/16/90  02:09:44
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    Subject:Jeff Beck

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     1:Your love and compassion really shows.  Get a life why don't you.
     2:
     3:

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