### Apollo BBS Archive - April 28, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6342
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod/comment
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:09:40

    Thanks, rod. Evolution is a fascinating subject. There are few people
    in this world who have changed the way we view ourselves. Darwin is
    one of those people. The fascinating thing is how Darwin was able to
    gather the courage to put for his Theory of Evolution in the face of
    the implications of this theory. The creationists today, of course, are
    in a far weaker position than those of the 19th century, when creationism
    was still a viable scientific alternative to Evolution. However, with the
    advances in geology and paleontology, Darwin's theory of natural selection
    is much stronger today than it was when Darwim first proposed it. I think
    one of the telling blows was the discovery of genes and DNA which finally
    provided the mechanism for variation that the Darwinian theory need in
    order to work. Another, of course, was the advances in geological dating
    that enabled the earth's age to be set a 4 or so billion years.

    Message: 6343
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:38:02

    How about an Evolution GT, someday?

    Message: 6344
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:18:03

    Then your saying, your using and up to date Bible - one that has been
    changed? Been changed to suit new 'needs'?????
    I cannot understand why evolution is drivel in your eyes. No I do not
    believe I'm a monkey or ever was. There could be a missing link! But I do
    not believe we were instantly created several thousand years ago. Who in the
    hell knows what's fact and isn't on this anyway? Each of us choose what we
    want to belive and each one is as right as the other.

    You are ALWAYS berating Rod for his insulting Christian bashing - yet you
    insulted me in that post for stating what I believe in.
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6345
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike on the subject
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:22:54

    Re: your "If you were at all interested in being a part of a discussion"
    etc. etc.

    I do not think any one can discuss the subject of Creativiness and Evolution
    and make it an intelligent discussion simply because not one of us knows
    anything for sure.

    I will continue to cry 'Unfair' for anyone if that's the way I see it.

                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6346
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff on birds
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:25:17

    I still may be wrong, but I think birds were at one time cold blooded. Even
    now, when you look at a bird close, you will see very obvious signs of
    reptile there. Feathers are formally scales. I would like to learn more
    about this.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6347
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Chic or egg??
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:27:38

    f you can answer that one .........! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6348
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/#6327
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:34:05

    Now that makes  a lot more sense. Who knows if God did create us and this
    world and if He did, maybe we just don't have enough understanding as how?
    The Bible could be just part of the over all planing. Evolution could be
    another part, more ancient, etc. etc. I see no argument about believing in
    it all. There is a lot of proof of the Bible and a lot of proof re:
    Evolution. Maybe the space aliens are the right answer after all. I.E.
    Chariots of the Gods! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6349
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Book
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:35:42

    Everyone should read a book by James Mitchner called 'The Source' Vedddddy
    interesting. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6350
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Horse
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:10:58

            A Horse is a Horse of course, it did not turn into and elephant did
    it?

    Message: 6351
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: irrefutable fact
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:29:02

            Yes Roger...you are better then the rest of us... books YOU read all
    are 100% correct.. Thr BOOKs that I quoted from are garbage.... (because you
    don't agree with them)  Yes ROGER...
            However, I do disagree with you that they were irrefutable facts.
    They were facts twisted to give the results YOU wanted...  You are happy
    being second cousin to an amoeba, be my guest.
            So we stand where we stood before...each with our favorite authors.
    Your scentists against my scentists

                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*  (-:}

    Message: 6352
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: B-Dog on Gould
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:45:07

    Re: Darwin & Gould
            Darwin was the way to go for quite a few years, but they proved
    there was something WRONG with a slow gradual evolution, and too many people
    were finding this out...so, Gould comes up with 'Punctuated Equilibrium' as
    the new wave of evolution.  And I suspect they will even come up with other
    new ones as each THEORY is trashed.

            Yes, Lippard...the one who thinks nuclear power and drugs are safe,
    he is really the one to believe.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 6353
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean Hathaway
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:09:50

            So, you don't know how the first species came about.  Hmmmm, there
    are people who would like you to think they assembled themselves.  You were
    at the 'Shoot-Out GT today...  did you see anything that we shot up
    re-assemble itself?   Naaaa, everything went from order to dis-order.
    Yet the evolution drivel people would have you believe that the second law
    of thermodynamics took inanimate matter from disorder to order.  They will
    rewrite laws to suit their wants and needs to bash you with a theory.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 6354
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Poor Ann
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:23:45

            Get this though you head...  I have NOT quoted the BIBLE anywhere on
    this SIG in this debate.   I was referring to modern day science books and
    other books that I was listing.  Tell me the post I quoted the BIBLE in?  If
    you can't find it, then maybe it don't exist.  I know now...  You evolution
    people are expecting the post to create ITSELF???
                                    ha ha ha ha ha

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 6355
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:28:19

    Sounds like fun, we could all naturally select each other.

    Message: 6356
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: ann on birds
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:29:42

    If you look at the feet of birds, they look reptilian.

    Message: 6357
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: refutability
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:44:04

    Cliff, stop doing that. If you want to talk about the issues please do.
    I don't want to get into a debate about who is the better author. I only
    ask you to try to understand how science works. If you read the entry
    I made from _Panda's Thumb_ you would have seen an excellent example
    of a scientific hypothesis explaining why A... had feathers. One hypothesis
    was based upon the heat-retention problem of small animals. Remember ?
    Now, if A had feathers to retain heat, and A was a dinosaur (albeit a
    small one), then dinosaurs would have had to have been warm-blooded in
    order to support this particular hypothesis. This a "testable" hypothesis.
    If further researches revealed that dinosaurs were warm-blooded, then
    the hypothesis of the feathers for A... as a dinosaur is strengthened.
    Now, notice the way things work. The hypthosesis is not held to be
    God-given knowledge... It can be refuted. Your authors are attempting
    to refute evolution, and so far they have failed. The reason isn't because
    some authors believe in evolution and others don't, the reason is that
    the facts support evolution and attempts to refute have failed. Let
    me give you an example: Some creationists believe that there is not
    enough time for evolution to take place. Radiometric dating has established
    that there have been 3.5 billions years for evolution to take place.
    creationists like James White and others attempt to discredit radiometric
    dating in an attempt to remove this critical piece of evidence.
    so far, no Creationist has been able to discredit radiometric dating.

    Message: 6358
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: gradualism
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:51:51

    Let me enter what Gould has to say about this circa 1977 from his book
    _The Panda's Thumb_.

    "I emphatically do not assert the general 'truth' of this philosophy
    of punctuational change. Any attempt to support the exclusive validity
    of such a grandiose notion would border on the nonsensical. Gradualism
    sometimes works well. (I often fly over the parallel ridges left standing
    by gradual erosion of the softer rocks surrounding them.) I make a simple
    plea for pluralism in guiding philosophies, however hidden and unarticulated
    constrain all our thought. "
    What Gould is saying that there is no "truth" that all theories have
    validity and should be allowed to speak for themselves. The theory of
    evolution does not rest upon gradualism or punctuated equilibrium. Indeed,
    Darwin was criticized for his belief in gradualism as part of his theory
    of evolution. Evolution remains a fact witness to by the fossils found
    buried in the earth. The theory of evolution attempts to answer the
    question:{How did it happen ?

    Message: 6359
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:59:07

    I read the source about 10 years ago.   Pretty interesting if I remember
    correctly.  Actually most of Michener's writing is very interesting.  I
    remember reading Centinial in 1 1/2 days.

    Message: 6360
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ann on birds
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 19:58:55

            Not only do the feet of birds look reptilian, birds also have two
    eyes...just like reptiles.  Oh my GOD!

                                            clif-

    Message: 6361
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: deinos sauros
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 20:28:25

    deinos, terrible        sauros, a lizard
    a group of extinct Mesozoic reptiles with four limbs and a long, tapering
    tail.  Dinosaur....  I have not argured they were not warm blooded, what I
    argue here is they were not LIZARDS as you and I know them in the Arizona
    desert.  These warm blooded animals were mis-named.   Birds do not all need
    feathers to be a bird...  they do not even need to fly.  I do not think the
    bird animal was EVER a lizard, in the sense that it was cold blooded. The
    bird animal was created apart from the lizard, just like man and the monkey
    are two different species.  I beleive that a GOD created several different
    species and made them so they could adapt to different climates, etc.
    Man however was set apart by a different analytical brain, a soul, and them
    magical hands.   I do NOT think we were an *accident* of nature.

            You still keep talking about your books being better then the books
    of science I was reading.  You still say because you read it, it is fact.
    What about what I read?  There are Christian Paleoanthropologists you know.
    Why are ones who write evolution drivel better in your mind then those who
    write in support of creation?

            The day I find out there is no God...is the day I will kill myself,
    rather then living a worthless with out purpose life!

    Message: 6362
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 21:46:03

    I guess that it is better to delude yourself and live, than to see reality
    and die.  I guess I can understand why many people want a saviour.  The
    world sucks.  People are hungry and dieing.  But if there is some reward or
    some greater place THERE is a reason to persevere.

    Life is so bad that you would kill yourself without a god?  A pretty
    childish point of view.

    Message: 6363
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 22:35:52

            With Christian bashers spending more time bashing then trying to
    make a better world...no wonder it sucks.
    The only anger I seem to run into is from you guys.   You guys being just
    like the Romans, feeding Christians to lions.... then telling us "athiests
    never hurt anyone."

            All lies.... (re: misery loves company) and you atheists are a
    miserable lot.  You just can't stand to see happy content people!

                                    clif-

    P.S.  James, I ain't going to kill myself because there is a God and it's
    worth living to fill my purpose in life.  Maybe that is running this board?

    Message: 6364
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: A god?
    Date: 04/29/90  Time: 00:42:18

    I think that if it were proven there was a god then we'd all be in trouble.
    I mean, the starvation, the killings, the uncaring.  Well, I'd spring for a
    half-witted god, perhaps.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 65098
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau/voting
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 06:01:29

     Thanks for reminding me. I may just do that, since it seems that all the
    interesting things are happening in the Republian arena.

    Message: 65099
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 07:11:31

    Re:  "Salvahan of Caribec............100 B.C.
          Quirinus of Rome...............506 B.C.
          Wittoba of Telingonese.........522 B.C.
          Prometheus of Greece...........547 B.C.
          etc."

    But Jesus came back from the dead.  There are many written eye witness
    accounts.  And not just the Biblical accounts.  Josephus the *non-Christian*
    Jewish historian talks about Jesus in his writings.

    The fact that Jesus rose from the dead just as he said he would, puts him in
    a very special class.  More books have been written about Jesus than any
    other person in the world.  The Bible continues to be the best selling book
    in the world.  To say Jesus was only a fairy tail in view of these facts and
    many others shows a mind set difficult for me to relate to.  It's like
    denying it rained in the 18th century.  To say it didn't rain in the 18th
    century because no one is alive today who saw it, is too simplistic.

    Message: 65100
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shoot-out
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 07:44:27

            Well, Sandy and I are off to hold claim to a spot in the desert for
    the Shoot-Out GT.  I really hope toy see you guys & Gals out there.

            That means you to Roger...  Zak, Jeff Beck, etc.

                                    clif-

    Message: 65101
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 11:47:50

    What about Bagwan Shree Rajneesh?  He died this year.  Has anyone claimed to
    see him rise from the dead?  We could always start a rumor...

    Message: 65102
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: daryl/arbitrage
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 12:58:07

    I believe that God has a special punishment for those who believe
    in Him because it is the SMART thing to do.

    Message: 65103
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: melissa/elvis
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:00:50

    There is a rumor that Elvis has risen from the dead.

    Message: 65104
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/my list
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:42:35

    Hey Bob, some pretty major religions of the world are based on some of the
    people I mentioned....and.... some did come back from the dead and it
    also is documented.  Too bad you weren't born in India then we'd have to
    listen to you knocking Jesus as a fake.

    Message: 65105
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Bob II
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:46:01

    Bob, what you are basically saying sounds more like an indictment against
    your religion than anything else.

    President Bush is an Episcopalian, Reagan, Disciples of Christ, Carter,
    Southern Baptist, Ford, Episcopalian, Nixon, Quaker, Johnson, Disciples of
    Christ, Kennedy, Roman Catholic, Eisenhower, Presbyterian, Truman, Baptist,
    Roosevelt, Episcopalian, Hoover, Quaker, Coolidge, Congregationalist,
    Harding, Baptist, Wilson, Presbyterian, Taft, Unitarian, T. Roosevelt,
    Reformed Dutch, McKinley, Methodist.  This lists all of this centuries
    presidents.

    Is this why the internal affairs of this country are so messed up or is it
    because 10 to 15 percent of the population are atheist/agnostic?

    If a Southern Baptist met a Shiite Moslem and both understood each others
    language, there would be little communication between the two.  And if a
    Iranian atheist met an American atheist there would be very few barriers
    between the two because their non-god would be the same.

    By the way, perhaps you could answer my post wherein I compared the
    Christian diety to three evil men.  Could someone, anyone answer it, please?

    I'll pay $10 to one that can give a logical answer to it.

    Message: 65106
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: the obitz
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:46:21

            Whoops....  No one was killed accept for 15 gallon milk jugs filled
    with water.....  and a cat........................  drawing of Bill the cat,
    that is.  Some steel plates that did not know which way they wanted to
    face, and alas, it looks like we need to bury a few bowling pins, they are
    VERY DEAD!

            Oh yes, for you environmentalist, we packed all the shot up targets
    out of the area, leaving the place CLEANER then we found it.

            You also missed out on the Bonnie Hot dog, now suffer!

            Note to new user...  Nice to meet you Mr Gordon Little!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65107
    Author: John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: religion
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 19:40:19

    Suppose I'm just a questing person who wants to develop the relationship I
    feel I have with God. e.g."There is a God. He wants something of me. How do
    I best answer Him?" Then I appreciate Him in the sunshine and the flowers
    and the storms, but I also feel the need to worship Him in some way. So, I
    look for an organized group to worship Him. I find none that EXACTLY matches
    what I feel, but I go to the one closest. Let's say it is the "Church of the
    What's Happenin Now."  Do I fall into your category of "born brainwashed and
    trapped into ignorance?" No, I don't think so! Are all Christians, Jews,
    XMuslims, Brahmins, etc. so ignorant? Thomas Aquinas and Thomas More were
    not dumbbells!

    Message: 65108
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shoot-Out
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 20:57:51

            That was the most awesome assortment of armament that I had ever
    seen at a GT.  I was VERY impressed.  That goes for the people that showed
    up as well.   Why even Bob Thornburg was storming those poor bowling pins
    with an assault 223 making kills and smiling about it.

            There was so much going on, I did not get to shoot Dean's 44 like I
    was hoping ... and a few other weapons.  Maybe we need to have some mini
    GT's were we can concentrate on a few weapons with a few shooters.

                            Thanks
                                    clif-

    Message: 65109
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod W. on Dean H.
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 22:54:25

    Re:65093   I have noticed over the years that Dean is a person of very sound
    logic.

            Well Rod, that was very nice of you to say something nice about
    someone...  However, you say that about anyone who agrees with you, and
    anyone who does not is "Stupid" as you have said many times.  So what's new?
    I on the other hand, do not agree with Dean on religion, but I am not going
    to call him stupid, because I don't think he is.   I don't think Roger is
    stupid either....  But you, you're a pompous @$$

                                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  Now you know why you have alienated me from you. (and I didn't call
    you 'stupid' either)

    Message: 65110
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod on WESTFALL
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 23:04:05

    Re: "Man, this board hasn't 'cranked' like this in a long while.  It's hard
    to keep up but so very damn interesting.  -Rod

    I have to agree with you on that one.........   Yes, I just started reading
    some of your posts again, for the past month I had been [S]kipping them for
    the most part.  I almost was going to activate a [SK]ip Rod cmd, but you do
    say some things that are worth while...  now and then!

                                    clif-

    Message: 65111
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Rod
    Date: 04/29/90  Time: 00:48:20

    Just show me one single message where I called you stupid, stupid.  If you
    can find just one then I'll give up cheese and milk for a whole month.

    By the way, perhaps you will be able to answer my question about me
    comparing a diety who demands ridiculous things.  There is a nice reward to
    the one who can come up with a good answer.

                                    Peace, eh!
                                       Rod