### Apollo BBS Archive - September 5, 1990

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    Message: 6674
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/4-wheel
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:42:19

    Just mud.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 6675
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Idea for thought
    Subject: Jeff/Phenomenalism?
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:52:17

      It seems to me that to infer that our statements regarding sensory data
    are wrong is to infer some systematic interferance with our efforts to
    discover the truth. I find that harder to swallow than the relatively
    straight forward idea that sensory data, and statements thereof, can be
    judged on their own merits.
      I do have some skepticism about modern physics, but I am not sure if that
    is due to the effects you described, or my own failure to grasp something. I
    suppose that could be the whole foundation that much of it rests on, the
    fact that no outsider can positively identify it as baloney.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Physics

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:If you learn everything about physics from a book then you have missed what
     2:has yet not been discovered.  Sometimes it is better to start out anew and
     3:from the looks of it, the both of you, Dean and Jeff have grasped the
     4:understanding of what time really is.
     5:
     6:Keep going.
     7:end

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    Message: 6676
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Physics
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:35:00

    If you learn everything about physics from a book then you have missed what
    has yet not been discovered.  Sometimes it is better to start out anew and
    from the looks of it, the both of you, Dean and Jeff have grasped the
    understanding of what time really is.

    Keep going.

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    Message: 4194
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: freckles
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:38:38

    Speaking strictly for myself, I hate my freckles because they make me look
    even younger and unsophisticated than I really am. Without makeup, I look
    like a fifteen-year-old farm girl from Kansas or something, and that's not
    quite the image I want to project for myself...

    Message: 4195
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Up Yours
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:26:29

    That was a baaaaaah-d joke.

    Message: 4196
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Roger/taunts
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:29:48

    Of course it is game playing.  Who are you, Mr. Maturity (or perhaps I
    should say Modern Maturity)?  I don't think you are in any position to throw
    stones, given the fact that you have been regaling us for the past three
    days with stories of your masterbation fantasies regarding certain "baby
    faced" pouting actresses.

    Message: 4197
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Roger/learned
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:38:01

    Yes.  I learned that the best way to shut up some snotty fool is to make him
    eat his words.  In light of your braggadocio regarding your vast formal math
    experience and your peerless memory, and consequently, your condescending
    remarks about my lack of formal education, I found your ignorance of
    fundamental concepts (i.e. limits) and your inability to distinguish between
    geometric concepts and physical entities, rather incongruous (and somewhat
    amusing).

    Message: 4198
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Roger/big brown eyes
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:40:46

    Well, perhaps a cow or a springer-spaniel might be more to your liking; they
    have even bigger brown eyes.

    Message: 4199
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Melissa on Jeff
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:14:55

    Re: putting money together to get him an enflatable doll ----
    hahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahaha. Good one girl! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 4200
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Doggy
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:17:18

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha - iflatable sheep???!!! - hahahahahahha./ Boyee are
    all of you comedians today or what?
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaah

                                   -=*) ANN (*=-
    How about an inflatable female Godzilla? Oh lord, this list could be long.
    Jeff - I think you started something.

    Message: 4201
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Rod on Jett
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:18:35

    "You'd sure like to 'plank her'????" Hahahahahahahahahahah. Youse guys and
    gals got me in stitches today! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 4202
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: freckles
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:36:28

    but it is one that millions of 40+ year-olders spend billions of dollars
    to obtain. If you've got it, flaunt it !!!

    Message: 4203
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: jeff/game playing
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:37:37

    too bad. you should go to school and learn something.

    Message: 4204
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: jeff/learning
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:39:12

    I repeat. Go to school.

    Message: 4205
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: roger/freckles
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:36:51

    Yeah, but no one takes me seriously, I look like a little kid if I don't
    have my hair right or makeup on. I suppose when I'm 35 and still getting
    carded, it'll be amusing but now it's not so fun...

    Message: 4206
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Re-BuTTal
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:56:48

    "Go to school and learn something."

    Yes, a classical attempt to intimidate your opponent into silence when your
    arguments relevant to the issues are flawed.
    First, I fail to understand what this has to do with the subject of sexual
    badinage, mature or otherwise.
    Second, it is clear from our discussions that school is neither a necessary
    nor sufficient condition for learning.

    Message: 4207
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Shezz!
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:05:17

    Gone to two days and this is the board with the most messages!
    Help!

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Physics/school

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     1:If Einstein had believed everything taught him then perhaps he wouldn't have
     2:went out of textbook range.  Or maybe his wife wouldn't have.
     3:
     4:The only thing I've fuck an inflatable sheep with is an inflatable dick.
     5:Smoke that.
     6:end

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    Message: 4208
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Physics/school
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:39:31

    If Einstein had believed everything taught him then perhaps he wouldn't have
    went out of textbook range.  Or maybe his wife wouldn't have.

    The only thing I've fuck an inflatable sheep with is an inflatable dick.
    Smoke that.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 1468
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:58:37

      I was a teenage Plasmatic.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.
    *(

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Dean/Jeff

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     1:I was a teenage mutant.
     2:end

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    Message: 1469
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean/Jeff
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:40:27

    I was a teenage mutant.

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 1929
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:03:37

    I just think there are people too vunerable to handle critism that let
    themselves wide open to it.

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 69192
    Author: Carl Fulves
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: R. Williams/WW II
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:19:19

    We could have bombed the railroad lines leading to the camps.  We didn't.
    We could have bombed the camps themselves.  We didn't.  To say that it would
    have killed people is adding nothing.  They were killed anyway, as were the
    ones who followed; and these numbered far more than those who would have
    been killed by bombing raids.  Besides, what kind of quality of life did
    those people have anyway?  You are always saying how one should not be
    afraid of death, and how you would rather die than live in misery.  Is this
    a serious philosophy, or merely cheap rhetoric?  To say that they would have
    built more camps is not to state a fact, merely a speculation.  Besides, we
    bombed their industries; would you argue that this was wrong simply because
    they might build more?

    Message: 69193
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/500 years
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:34:32

    No, I don't think it'd be right but I suspect 500 years ago there would've
    been no one to help out small countries. That's probably why there weren't
    many small countries in those days, because the big countries were doubly
    invincible in comparison.

    Message: 69194
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Peter/breakdown
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:18:36

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Sandy

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
     2:America's?
     3:
     4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
     5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
     6:
     7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
     8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba?
     9:
    10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
    11:this planet, however unfortunate.
    12:
    13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
    14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
    15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of
    16:life.
    17:
    18:It is not the intelligent animal who pursues peace with all but that day may
    19:be a while in coming.
    20:
    21:end

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     1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
     2:America's?
     3:
     4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
     5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
     6:
     7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
     8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba?
     9:
    10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
    11:this planet, however unfortunate.
    12:
    13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
    14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
    15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of
    16:life.
    17:
    18:

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    15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of
    Find text:is a
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    15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
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     1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
     2:America's?
     3:
     4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
     5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
     6:
     7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
     8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba?
     9:
    10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
    11:this planet, however unfortunate.
    12:
    13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
    14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
    15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
    16:life.
    17:
    18:

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     5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
    Find text:California
    Replace text:California)

     5:(Arizona/California) and took by force the land you now are on?
    Find text:

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    The message is 69225

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    Message: 69194
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Peter/breakdown
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:18:36

    Are we to assume then that neither the homosexual nor the quadraplegic was a
    white male?  I believe that Robert Mapelthorpe was homosexual AND a white
    male.

    Assuming that none of the other categories overlap, we see that Helms has
    publically accused only six people of creating obscene art.  One would
    expect that, if, as you say, his charges of obscenity were minority
    oriented, he should accuse more than six people out of the tens of thousands
    of artists supported by the NEA, of obscenity.  But according to your own
    chart, he has only made this accusation against a single homosexual out of
    all of the other NEA supported homosexual artists.  He has only made this
    accusation against a single hispanic...
    And what of black people?  Are we to infer from their absence on your list
    that Mr. Helms' alleged prejudices against minorities do not extend to
    blacks?  Surely, if he were motivated by prejudice against minorities, he
    could, given his status as a good old boy of the south, have concocted some
    obscenity charges against blacks?

    As for a comparison of NEA fundings vs. S&L bailouts, two wrongs do not make
    a right.

    Message: 69195
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: RADAR
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:24:45

    As I understand it, radar works by shooting radar waves, which travel with
    the speed of light, timing the interval between their transmission and their
    return (via bouncing off of an object), and dividing the product of this
    interval and the speed of light by two to get the distance of the object.
    But if the object were a short distance away, say, fifty feet, given that
    the speed of light is some 186,000 miles per second, the timed interval
    would be in the neighborhood of 102 billionths of a second.  How is it
    possible that such an interval is timed by ordinary equipment, much less by
    the pre-computerized equipment of WW II days?

    Message: 69196
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/rain
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:46:45

     The rain here in Peoria was horizontal also, since it was being pushed by
    some 80mph winds. Lots of water in the streets, many streets closed,
    including sections of Grand Ave. and the B.C. Freeway. As of this moment it
    is raining pretty hard again, and I have to drive the Red Cross medical van
    today. Oh FUN!

    Message: 69197
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: tornado?
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:49:18

     The reported tornado in N. Phoenix on Monday was repudiated by the weather
    bureau. According to them, tornadoes originate in the clouds and come down.
    This one went up from the ground. It was designated by the eggheads at the
    weather bureau as a (are you ready for this?) gustnado. Now there's a new
    one for ya!

    Message: 69198
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:56:05

     I recall quite well at least one case on the west side where two children
    were taken from the parents on absolutely nothing more than the say-so of a
    5 or 6 year old neighbor who had made some remarks about the father. This
    case was well publicized and even got the attention of the state
    legislature. There were no, repeat NO interviews or even questions asked of
    the parents. CPS simply walked in and removed the children, who incidentally
    were very happy at home, and the parents had to go through literal hell to
    get them back. WNitness after witness, friend after friend swore that the
    family unit was strong and there was no sign of abuse at all, but none of
    that swayed the good bureaucrats of the CPS from their sworn "duty" to the
    children. You may have seen another side of this organization, and that's
    good, but as long as it can generate horror stories like this one, something
    drastically  needs to be done.

    Message: 69199
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter on the arts
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 05:03:56

     While I don't believe in racism or discrimination for any reason, nor do I
    believe in censorship, since it is simply one set of beliefs against
    another, I also do not believe in public funding for things that should be
    strictly privately suported. This includes the arts as subsidized by the
    NEA, sport stadiums or arenas, amphitheaters, or anything else that should
    either succeed or fail by the laws of supply and demand. If such functions
    cannot stand on their own merit, without taxpayer funding, then they should
    fall. With all due respect, Peter, and I wish you nothing but the best, your
    art studio, Jerry Colangelo's new downtown arena, Zef Bufman's amphitheater
    or the proposed baseball stadium are doing me absolutely no good at all.
    They don't particularly interest me, they don't benefit me
    financially,nothing. Why, then, should 68 cents, $1100 or even one red cent
    of my limited income go to help support any of them?

    Message: 69200
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Carl on death camps
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:10:19

    You said - "Besides, what kind of quality of life did those people have
    anyway?"

    It wasn't the quality - it was the hope for the future and that's about all
    they had - a future of a better quality as long as they were alive. Are you
    suggesting that we should have killed them ourselves because they were going
    to die anyway???? If I'm not mistaken, thousands were in those camps when we
    occupied them and they lived on didn't they? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69201
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on Gustnado
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:12:27

    'Gustnado' is the same gobble-do-gook as the 'Monsoons' are - no such things
    at least in the valley. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69202
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: The sysop
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:27:15

    Where is our beloved Mighty Sysop hiding? He hasn't been on for days.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69203
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/artists
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:30:59

    I don't consider artists undisciplined children because I know we don't pay
    any of our artists, including musicians, according to their value to
    society.

    Message: 69204
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: RADAR
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:33:31

    102 nanoseconds is a long time today.

    Message: 69205
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/rain
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:34:27

    It's extremely humid again today. I can see the clouds building up to
    the east. I suspect we will get more rain. Sigh.

    Message: 69206
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beloved SysOp
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:16:40

            Here I am Annie!    Geee, I did not know I was the 'Beloved SysOp'.
    Anyway, I have been out of your way for the past week or so...  I see the
    board survived without me just fine.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 69207
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/69200
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:49:19

    The thousands in the camps at the time of liberation were not the thousands
    in the camps at various times prior to liberation.  Very few people survived
    for any appreciable time once they were in the system, and the number who
    actually survived internment throughout the war was very small indeed.  Any
    "hopes for the future" were generally unfilfilled, and millions could have
    been spared, in all likelyhood, if we had made it clear that such places
    would not be tolerated but would be destroyed.  Of course, if we had made a
    clear moral stand to begin with, including the most horrific retribution
    guaranteed for those who would participate in such atrocities, they most
    likely would not have occured, at least not on such a scale or with such
    formal planning.  As someone else pointed out, the world was tested for its
    reaction, and the world was apathetic.  They Nazis did not start out with
    the kind of program they ended with; oh, they probably had that in mind, but
    the point is that they implimented it little by little, testing how their
    victims, the countrymen of the victims, and the rest of the world would
    react.  It is a typical pattern with bullies.  A bully does not ordinarily
    walk up to a perfect stranger and beat them up.  They test the attitude of
    those who might oppose them, including the attitude of the potential victim,
    and after certain escalations have taken place with certain results,
    violence is carried out.

    Message: 69208
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/RADAR
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:52:04

    That doesn't answer the question.  The question is, how could suc

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Jeff/Nazi

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:People don't go around bombing prisoner of war camps.  I would imagine that
     2:many of the prisoners had hope for the future as Ann pointed out.  If they
     3:heard through the grapevine that the German military was in trouble from
     4:fighting too many fronts then that reason would give many of them hope.  The
     5:ones who gave up hope probably died (many of them; the ones who were not
     6:gassed) from having gave up.  Sure death is a good thing but it is not my
     7:right to say when someone is to die and I doubt if Roosevelt wanted to be
     8:know as a person who killed masses of people in order to spare them another
     9:kind of death.  The popular theory seems to be to stay or keep someone alive
    10:(unless they be a cat, dog or other species) for as long as possible.
    11:Roosevelt did the only thing he could.
    12:
    13:And the Americans and allies wiped out every rail line and locomotive it
    14:could but are you implying that those going to the death camps were left
    15:without harm on purpose?
    16:
    17:Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank
    18:of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was
    19:taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?
    20:
    21:The only delibrate {sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I

    22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
    2 lines left
    23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
    1 line left
    24:                                                Rod

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    Message: 69208
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/RADAR
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:52:04

    That doesn't answer the question.  The question is, how could such timings
    be carried out with ordinary modern equipment (i.e. RADAR guns), much less
    with pre-computerized WW II vintage equipment.  102 nano-seconds was not a
    long time then, nor is it now for normal equipment, or if it is, I would
    appreciate it if someone would explain how.

    Message: 69209
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Germany
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:09:41

    Yes I agree, that why it is good that we intervened in saudi arabia.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 69210
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Vocabulary
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:11:17

    Hey Jeff, I have to look up that word in the dictionary before I answer to
    that.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 69211
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: School
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:25:19

    Michael If your talking about Mrs Janet Miller the math instructor, yes i
    have a class by her, intermediate algebra.
    thanks again for recomending this school, it's great.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 69212
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Radar/GCU
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 22:15:14

    When it comes to radar, one usually measures not the time interval, but the
    shift in frequency which comes from motion, either of the radar emitter, or
    the radar reflector.  The amount of shift in frequency is dependent on the
    speed and direction of travel of the observer or subject.  Radar was only in
    experimental use during WWII.  It did not become very functional until the
    fifties.

    GCU: No, I was talking about Mrs. Barbara Miller, who probably teaches math
    and computer science.

    Re: Bombing the Concentration Camps.  Yes, many people would have died, but
    more would likely have been saved.  Bombing the railroad tracks and roads
    leading to the concentration camps would also have served that purpose.
    Rebuilding something that is destroyed requires resources which are scarce
    during a war, and might likely have been placed on a lower priority.  This
    would have slowed the killing, saving thousands, perhaps millions of lives.

    But in fact, the allies were very aware of the true nature of the
    concentration camps, and made a conscious effort to avoid bombing them or
    their transportation systems.  Several books detailing this essential
    conspiracy (one of many during that war) have been published.  Roosevelt was
    personally responsible for ordering the U.S. military to not destroy the
    camps.  This, along with the turning away of the St. Louis, which carried
    refugees who later ended up in the camps, makes Roosevelt culpable.

    Message: 69213
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul, NEA, etc
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:01:59

    Paul - Fine.  So you hear of one situation (which I'm sure you know all of
    the facts to) and that means that all the children it has helped is canceled
    out for this one incident?  I agree that it should never happen, but neither
    should a child be raped, especially by their own parents.  I want to help
    change the system to help the children.  What you are suggesting is bring
    down the only system in Arizona that can help them.  Children are already
    unrepresented.

    I don't think the government should fund art.  It also seems to go against
    what being an artist is about; starving to build character and all that.
    Besides, it creates an atmosphere where artist compromise what they really
    want to create so that they can get funding.
    Major double plus ungood.

    Message: 69214
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JB/Radar
    Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:24:28

    Mike Kielsky made the right comment (what is interesting in speed guns is
    the red/blue shift -- this is what determines relative speed of the gun and
    the thing the gun's waves hit).  Just measuring the time delay would give
    one the distance.  Using two such units, one could do some triangulation and
    determine position as well...

    Message: 69215
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: NEA
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:21:44

      Did anybody else see James Taranto on MTV's The Week In Rock, commenting
    on the funding contraversy? He said that Mapplethorpe and the rest of the
    artists who were taking tax money to create art most people would object to
    were 'thumbing their noses  society'. I think he was right.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 69216
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Debate
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:24:53

      How about that Democratic Governor's debate tonight? If Goddard had hired
    a stooge to debate him in order to make him look good he could not have done
    any better. Moss even held up Hitler as source of inspiration for
    educational policy, based on the effectiveness of his armies. Moss wants to
    tax and spend just as much as Goddard does, but sounds like an idiot
    besides.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 69217
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Edsel
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:25:27

       Having finished my study of the Edsel, for the time being at least, here
    is some information in case anybody cares.
       In the mid 1950's, Ford Motor Company believed that the one area of the
    auto market in which they were least represented, and which had the
    greatest growth potential, was the mid-priced market. Their projections for
    the economy had this market growing astronomically as rising young
    executives and prosperous families demanded vehicles with that extra bit of
    style, comfort, and performance to set them apart from the preponderance of
    ordinary cars on the road. Ford decided that in order to best position
    themselves in this emerging market they should create a separate division
    just to serve it, a la Buick and Oldsmobile of the General Motors clan.
       For the launching of this new endeavor the company spent more time and
    money on market research, publicity, and product planning than they had
    ever invested in any previous launch. The total cost of the program was
    estimated at $250 million.
       The publicity campaign was a huge success, up until the car was actually
    in the market anyway, so that aspect can hardly be faulted. The media was
    played like a fine instrument by the Edsel division's PR men before the
    car's introduction, and became a practical extension of the PR department.
    Judging from the eagerness of reporters to amplify and echo the slightest
    detail about the car before it even existed, Ford's belief that it was
    bringing the car buying public just what it wanted seemed highly justified.
    Later, the media people who saw and drove the cars in advance of their sale

    Message: 69218
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 2of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:25:58

    to the public were even more confident that it would be a huge success.
    But the disaster which soon befell the new car line brings into question
    just how wisely the expenditures for market research and product planning
    were really made.
       The Edsel's styling is credited with a great share of its failure, but
    that view may not be entirely accurate. The car was a bold departure from
    the huge, open-maw grilles full of chrome teeth and the huge tail fins
    which characterized most of its competition. The clean lines of the Edsel's
    scalloped sides and flat rear deck probably did much to kill off the
    penchant for tail fins which had swept the industry for years. What did not
    catch on, however, was the Edsel's vertical grille. Originally envisioned
    as resembling a blade or shield on the car's nose, it was opened up as a
    concession to concerns over possible engine cooling problems. The open
    quasi-oval shape began to be identified with a horse collar or a toilet
    seat, or a more personal orifice as the car's other problems came to light,
    and they just didn't look right anymore after that. It became the wrong
    look at the wrong time. Ten years later the same front end styling would be
    a big success for Pontiac. For the 1959 models the Edsel's grille was
    redesigned to eliminate the hollow look, and the odious comparisons, and
    the latter treatment does look much more handsome by today's standards. As
    with other Edsel fixes, it was already too late.
       Several problems which contributed to the early demise of the Edsel
    arose out of management conflicts within Ford Motor Company itself.

    Message: 69219
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 3of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:26:25

    The first mistake was the naming of the car. Great effort was put into
    constructing a list of names which the public identified with the qualities
    the new car line was to represent. A strong indicator that four of the
    names were especially good was provided by the fact that the same four
    names were at the top of the lists when two separate research organizations
    concluded their surveys. None of these four names won out, even though the
    name 'Edsel' had been shown to rate less than zero with the public in every
    test. While the name 'Edsel' had a strong identification with style and
    good character within the Detroit area, where Edsel Ford had been a well
    respected leader of the community, its most common reaction from outsiders
    in a word association test had been 'schmedsel' or 'pretzel'.
       Edsel Ford's widow and all three of their sons, Henry II, Bensen, and
    William, had vocally opposed the use of Edsel's name on any car. However,
    E.R. Breech, Chairman of the Board at FMC, had been calling the project the
    'Edsel' since its early beginning when it was internally known as the 'E'
    project and a newsman who learned of the 'E' designation publicly submitted
    a guess that it stood for 'Edsel'. Breech seems to have felt that naming
    the car for Edsel Ford would be a fitting way to honor the late company
    president, and that Henry II probably felt the same, if only in secret.
    Henry II also had a young son named Edsel. Breech may have felt that
    bringing Henry II's unspoken desire to fruition would ingratiate him with
    the family and fortify Breech's position in the hostile internal politics
    at Ford. In reality, at least some of Edsel's family felt that the company

    Message: 69220
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 4of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:26:54

    was the instrument by which Edsel's father, the original Henry Ford, had
    beaten the life out of Edsel, and surely did not consider it an honor for
    his very name to be given over to it. They had resisted the use of his name
    enough already that the PR department had announced that 'Edsel' would not
    be in the running and that it should no longer be included in any of the
    surveys or naming contests which were being conducted.
       When the final meeting took place to decide on a name once and for all,
    all three of the Ford brothers were away and Breech virtually railroaded
    the name Edsel through the process. He then contacted Henry II and told him
    that it had been a unanimous choice of the Board. He didn't mention that
    the board had not been allowed to vote on any other names.  Reluctantly, or
    in secret agreement, Henry II did not try to change the decision. Edsel's
    widow is said to have slammed her door in the face of the person who
    brought her the news.
       The name may not have hurt the car all that much, but it certainly did
    not help, and as events unfolded it became clear that Ford's latest
    debutante needed all the help it could get. The name became just one more
    easy target for detractors. Most people, even today, are not aware that
    Edsel was dead for over a decade before the car was named for him, and many
    may have imagined that he enshrined his name upon it as an act of vanity.
       Other instances of corporate infighting hurt the car's chances much more
    that the mere decision of what to call it. Robert McNamara, later a chief
    architect of the Viet Nam war as U.S. Secretary of State, opposed the 'E'

    Message: 69221
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 5of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:27:23

    car from the very beginning. He, as the head of the Ford division was
    inclined to build a smaller, cheaper car and saw the 'E' project as a gaudy
    waste of time. McNamara was not able to kill the project in favor of his
    own plans at the start; E.R. Breech had no interest in small cars; but
    McNamara tormented the project all the way, and presided over its final
    destruction just two years after it began.
       Ford and Mercury divisions saw the Edsel as nothing but unwanted
    competition, and did what they could to nip it in the bud. The Edsel had
    been much heralded as a lower priced car than its GM counterparts by the PR
    department, but that put it too close to Ford and Mercury prices to suit
    many in the company. A price increase went through, and the Edsel, as the
    first car introduced for 1958, found itself selling at a higher than
    expected price against other maker's subsidized year-end closeouts of 1957
    models, including Fords and Mercurys. The total sales in that mid-priced
    category were nowhere near what Ford had previously expected either. The
    country was starting into a recession, and it seemed that hoopla about big
    new cars was a lot more popular than buying them.
       In the initial model year there were four models in the Edsel line.
    Those four names which America had favored most in surveys; Citation,
    Corsair, Pacer, and Ranger; became the model names.  Due to some
    apprehension about being stuck with 'Edsel', the designers played up the
    model names, making them more visible than had been the norm on most cars.
    This practice is one of many Edsel features which has carried over into

    Message: 69222
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 6of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:27:51

    other cars long after the Edsel's departure. Ranger and Pacer were the
    lower priced versions, which would be made by the Ford Division.  Corsair
    and Citation were the larger and more expensive models, which would be
    manufactured by the Mercury Division.
       Terrible quality control problems plagued the cars at the outset. The
    Edsel line was introduced ahead of the rest of Ford's products for 1958,
    and was the first to feel the brunt of problems with outside suppliers. A
    run of camshafts and pushrods came in which were softer than they should
    have been. It took time for this problem to become noticeable, and the cars
    were already in the field before it was diagnosed. Some of the Edsel's
    special features were also trouble prone, like the popular automatic
    transmission selector which was built into the hub of the steering wheel.
       The manufacturing strategy created opportunities for many assembly
    problems. There was no pilot production plant for the Edsels, they had been
    designed and built first as a few hand made prototypes and then the actual
    production was turned over to the Ford and Mercury plants. Those plants did
    not have separate assembly lines for the Edsel products, and just threw in
    an Edsel after about 60 of their regular cars came down the line. This
    practice made the work more difficult, especially since the assembly lines
    were speeded up to accommodate the extra load. The shortened work time at
    each station, coupled with the nuisance of doing a different piece of work
    when that 61st car came along, must have made the Edsels an unwelcome sight
    in the plants.  McNamara's Ford division plants were the backbone of the

    Message: 69223
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 7of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:28:22

    company financially, and although their quality on Ford products was
    excellent, the Edsel cars they turned out tended to be the worst. Edsel
    division was denied the right to have any of their own management or
    inspectors on site in the plants.
       As the sorry state of quality control was relayed from dealers and
    customers to upper management, an attempt was made at reform. Groups of
    Edsels off the assembly line were graded for defects and could not be sent
    to dealers unless their aggregate problems were below a certain standard.
    This still allowed for serious problem cars to be averaged in with others
    and delivered. Due to parts shortages and other reasons, it was common for
    cars to be delivered to dealers with a list of defects attached to the
    steering wheel. Often, the dealer couldn't get the parts either so the car
    would be jury rigged in the field or cannibalized to fix other cars. A
    group of about 70 cars out of the first ones produced was specially
    prepared for use by the automotive press. Edsel division had the cars
    checked out and repaired as necessary beforehand to make sure that the
    reporters would not find them faulty. Company management was astounded to
    learn that the average cost of this procedure turned out to be over a
    thousand dollars per car.
       Quality control improved much with the 1959 models, but it was too late.
    Sales had never reached profitable levels, and the car had become the
    laughingstock of the industry. The media seemed to go all out in reversing
    its earlier treatment of the car. From sales in the 60,000 range for 1958,

    Message: 69224
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 8of8
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:28:44

    the car dropped to the 40,000 range in 1959, and the production lines were
    stopped in late 1959 after only a little over 2800 1960 models had been
    made.
       By the time the division was folded, some new plants had been built to
    produce Edsel parts. With the Edsel out of the way, McNamara was able to
    use those plants to quickly gear up to bring out his economy car, the
    Falcon. With that logistical jump on the competition, and with great
    economic timing, it was a huge success. The Falcon sold a record breaking
    400,000 units the first year. Later it would be the basis for the Mustang.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 69225
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:51:31

    Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
    America's?

    Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
    (Arizona/California) and took by force the land you now are on?

    Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
    keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba?

    It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
    this planet, however unfortunate.

    The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
    arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
    military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
    life.

    Message: 69226
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Nazi
    Date: 09/06/90  Time: 02:04:43

    People don't go around bombing prisoner of war camps.  I would imagine that
    many of the prisoners had hope for the future as Ann pointed out.  If they
    heard through the grapevine that the German military was in trouble from
    fighting too many fronts then that reason would give many of them hope.  The
    ones who gave up hope probably died (many of them; the ones who were not
    gassed) from having gave up.  Sure death is a good thing but it is not my
    right to say when someone is to die and I doubt if Roosevelt wanted to be
    know as a person who killed masses of people in order to spare them another
    kind of death.  The popular theory seems to be to stay or keep someone alive
    (unless they be a cat, dog or other species) for as long as possible.
    Roosevelt did the only thing he could.

    And the Americans and allies wiped out every rail line and locomotive it
    could but are you implying that those going to the death camps were left
    without harm on purpose?

    Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank
    of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was
    taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?

    The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
    am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
    from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
                                                    Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:UIP

    Message to update (68974-69226):69226

    Edit command:L15

    15:without harm on purpose?
    16:
    17:Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank
    18:of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was
    19:taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?
    20:
    21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
    22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
    23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
    24:                                                Rod

    Edit command:E21

    21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
    Find text:staff
    Replace text:staff w

    21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
    Find text:staff we
    Replace text:staff were

    21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff were accused of that I
    Find text:

    Edit command:L21

    21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff were accused of that I
    22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
    23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
    24:                                                Rod

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 69226

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:G

    Goodbye, Rod Williams
    You were on 42:27

    Please hang up now
    >J)
    R
    z/EFVje

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