### Apollo BBS Archive - June 10, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6568
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 16:12:49

    Re:  "I certainly hope you did not view anything but the GT's"

    Gee, Annie, can I borrow your video of the GTs?

    Message: 6569
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff/Zone
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 22:41:50

    I thought it was destroyed.

    Daryl
    (Ro 5:1-2)

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:No, we're saving it for scum like you.
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 6570

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:JN

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    *=* X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board entered *=*

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press  to abort

    Message: 3903
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Rot-
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 13:44:32

    I would say "Fuck You", but that would be too much fun to wish on an
    asshole like yourself.   Instead, I hope you never, ever get 'ANY NOOKY'
    ever again.  And, may your Pipes freeze up!

                            GRIN (-;}    <-clif-

                                            Yippy-yi-yee, mother fucker!

    Message: 3904
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: $#!+
    Subject: censorship
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 14:55:26

    The one thing that has kept the Apollo board live these past 8 years has
    been Cliffie's ever-lovin' ever watchful presence.  If he wants to change
    the "RULES" he has a right to, but he should post them on the Public Board
    for all to read.

         If any of you adults have ever logged onto one of the children's
    boards, you are aware of the inane, mindless profanity that their main SIGs
    are sprinkled with.

    For myself, I prefer the Public Board to remain "G" rated.  If Miz Dee wants
    to masturbate in public with a loaded gun, or Zak or Rod wants to wow us
    "squares" with the endless dreck they spout, let 'em do it here, where only
    consenting adults have the privilege of logging in.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 3905
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 18:47:07

    Amen.

    Message: 3906
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Clif-, Gary, Mike
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 23:39:36

    Satan loves you.

    P.S.  See, Cliff, the kid boards have more dirty words than the so-called
    grown up boards.  I suspected that those little motherfuckers knew more than
    us.  Damn I'm mad.

    And I have explained to my children, all of them, that FUCK is not a bad
    word.  A bad word, explains I, is one that is meant to hurt and that word
    could be literally anything.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:RC798-

    Message: 798
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 16:20:16

    Re:  "I'm looking forward to seeing that film. Probably when it shows up
             over at Glendale Super Saver"

    It's already at Valley West for 99 cents.  Just how cheap are you anyway?

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    I haven't seen "Crazy People" yet.

    We did rent the BTTF II video this weekend.  I liked it, but not as much as
    number 1.  I noticed a significant increase in profanity.  Too bad, since I
    see it as basically a youth movie.

    Message: 799
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 22:51:52

    IZZIT?

    gNARLY, d00d.

    I'll hafta check it out.

    Daryl
    (Ro 5:1-2)

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:Bob

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Re:  I haven't seen Crazy People yet."
     2:
     3:        Have you looked into a mirror lately?
     4:end

    Edit command:E1

     1:Re:  I haven't seen Crazy People yet."
    Find text:I
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     1:Re:   "I haven't seen Crazy People yet."
    Find text:

    Edit command:S

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    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press  to abort

    Message: 1829
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/08/90  Time: 23:22:55

    Wow.  I actually enjoyed that post(I'm going to hate myself in the morning).

    Message: 1830
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Hey
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 00:26:08

    You simply *can't* enjoy anything posted by a gun slinging
    brick-throwing loud-mouthed activist.

    That'd be heresy.

    Message: 1831
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Growl...
    Subject: ugh.
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 01:06:40

    I feel like sharing intimate and embarassing details of my life.  Tonight, I
    had an irresistable urge to clean my ears with a car key.  I gave in to this
    urge after cleaning the key with rubbing alcohol.  Now, however, my ears
    hurt.  My teeth also hurt, though I didn't use the key to pick my teeth.
    Still, it was satisfying to see the gluey wax stuck in that recessed slot
    which runs down the side of the key.  It's a car key, by the way.

    Well, goodnight.

    Message: 1832
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/Phx. Mecca
    Date: 06/09/90  Time: 23:07:12

    Well, since we are in the west and Moslems pray to the east, that equates to
    a lot of hineys aimed in our direction.

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last/hineys

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Hopefully Moslems do not consider beans a favorite food.
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 1833

    Message: 1834
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: GM keys
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 23:51:03

    As noted in this months AMA Journal of Medicine, the composition of General
    Motor Automobile keys causes AIDS.  It was discovered that a worker for the
    Briggs & Stratton Division had contracted AIDS and usually spat into the
    molten brass.  But in 1986 he slipped while preparing the mixture and fell
    into the vat.  He immediately dissolved and no part of him has ever been
    found.

    People are being asked not to scratch the skin with GM keys or if they have
    then to go immediately to their family doctor or their local mortuary.

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:JN

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Public & Free Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press  to abort

    Message: 66451
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Reason
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 13:23:08

    Well, I do not know what I am in favor of in the area of gun control. I was
    hoping for a reasonable discussion of my statement that perhaps the time has
    come to consider resonable gun control. Instead I got told I float to the
    top of the cesspool of cowardace, yellow-belly side up, to perform preverted
    sexual acts on myself, to move to China, and that I was not welcome on this
    BBS. Real mature discussion! I just returned from a week in the High Sierras
    smelling the odor of dead pine trees (air pollution weakened them for the
    bark beetles to finish the job). I'd guess that 1/4 of the trees in Yosemite
    are dead. Then I went over to the coast to see our National Forest Service
    aiding greedy lumber companies to clear cut the last stands of virgin
    ancient Redwood Forest. Now I am back to the smell of gunpowder and hot
    metal as I try again to discuss with those who claim to follow the world's
    greatest pacifist, Jesus Christ, and who call themselves by His name, yet
    think evil is something you can point your weapon at and dispatch with a few
    well-educated and well-aimed volleys of lead. SO! Let's think about the
    ENEMY... is it Soviet Tanks rolling down Central and running over unarmed
    innocents at the corner of Van Buren Street?

    Mike MIDDLETON

    Message: 66452
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: THEY?
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 13:30:45

    Thanks for your post! But who are THEY? Perhaps the law that is external
    will never free us. Perhaps when we die to our own self-defensiveness and
    fears of "THEM" is when we get to walk surrounded by Love, filled to
    overflowing with Grace, and united in the Fellowship of peace. Perhaps the
    most radical thing I say is not the little phrases others misquote or extend
    to the absurd, perhaps it is that love and humble service to others
    characterize those called Christian far better than proficiency with a
    weapon of murder and hate. Christian gun-lover is as incredible an oxymoron
    as being called a coward for standing up for what I believe. What is
    "Salvation" if not being freed from ourselves?

    Mike MIDDLETON

    Message: 66453
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Middleton
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 14:00:42

            Funny, I don't recall seeing where you were not welcome on this BBS.
    It is a fact that You, Hans Glans and Mad Max have made me manualy lower the
    ((SHIELD)) level of Apollo to it's lowest level in YEARS...  just so you
    guys could get in that 'extra' post.   I for one do not agree with you, but
    I see value in your posts... and you are most welcome to post them!

            It's not Soviet Tanks that I worry about... It's U.S. Tanks that we
    may someday fear.  The Pollish people had 'reasonable' gun control by
    registration.  Was it 'reasonable' that those who followed the law of
    registration got Shot when the Russians invaded and took over Poland and the
    list of 'registered' gun owners?

            You always 'skim' over opposing gun posts to that of your own.  So
    how can we have a reasonable discussion, when you yourself refuse to listen
    to people who just may have something at stake.  How much weapon knowledge
    do you possess?

            Welcome BACK from your vacation of rotting tree odors!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66454
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: War!
    Subject: Gun control
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 15:19:44

    re: Msg: 66199 Author: $ Apollo SYSOP, in reference to me: "What a
    JERK!"  My reply: "Bravery" and "Christianity" clearly demonstrated in
    personal insults? I think I must be getting close to the Truth that
    hurts!

    Sysop: "You can't even talk to this guy without him calling you a 'Gun-
    Nut'" My reply: I did not call you a gun nut. I said that "gun-nuts" are
    forcing those who favor resonable control of guns into extreme
    positions. This is one of the bigger factors in the push for control,
    that gun-lovers seem fairly incapable of rational thought on the matter.
    It was meant in the generic sense and I still think it is true. It was
    not personally directed to anyone.

    Sysop: (still to me personally) "He talks about Christ like he was a
    Christian...  he is not a Christian...he is a joke! A coward....A
    trator"  My reply: I would be glad to explain what Jesus really taught
    and modeled if you are ever interested. 938-6866.

    re: Msg. 66200 (Author: $ Apollo SYSOP) "I lived in New York.... One of
    the toughest gun control law states...I owned MORE hand guns...very easy
    to get in the underground."  My reply: You *admit* that you allowed your
    love of these weapons to motivate you to break the law? Heaven help us!
    Who is the criminal? Who will protect us from our protectors? Are you
    breaking Arizona law now?

    Message: 66455
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: War!
    Subject: Gun control
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 15:20:22

    Msg 66210:  Mike Carter "I have left that ailment of raging hormones..."
    My reply: Was that before or after you told me to stick it in my nose?

    MC/ "Don't worry Mikey, you'll reap what you're seeding..." My reply: We
    all will do that, Mr. Carter, rest assured. In the meantime, guns won't
    free you from your own fears and hates and enslavements.

    MC/ "Armed citizens who have been trained to handle a weapon are safer
    than citizens who own a car and have a state driver's license." My
    reply: Yes, so, why not insist on the same sort of registration and
    training and liicensing procedure for gun owners as for car drivers? Why
    not have an age, classes, tests, picture-IDs, re-tests, etc. for guns?
    What's so unreasonable about that?

    I NEVER EVER SAID OR EVEN HINTED AT THE POSITION THAT I FAVOR DISARMING
    OUR POPULATION. I MERELY SAID THAT MAYBE THE TIME HAS COME TO CONSIDER
    RESONABLE GUN CONTROL. YOU AND CLIFF ARE THE ONES WHO PUT ALL THOSE
    EXTREME POSITIONS ON THIS BBS AS THOUGH I HAD TYPED THEM AND YOU WERE
    NOW ARGUING WITH THEM. My current position is that your reaction to my
    statement shows a temper, deep personal insecurity, over-reaction,
    bullying ways, and an immaturity that would be very dangerous when
    coupled with a loaded gun! You scare me. Your concern for the Right to
    Keep and Bear Arms (which I never faintly challenged) over-rides the
    Rights of those who engage you in discussion and Free Speech.

    Message: 66456
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: War!
    Subject: Gun control
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 15:22:24

    re: Msg 66202: Jeff Lochansky JL/"Where do you get of calling a sport
    that millions of people enjoy a quote * dangerous and pointless hobby *"
    My reply: I "get off" expressing my opinion because I don't see the
    point of playing with guns and I have enough personal knowledge of
    tragedy and injury to call it dangerous. Spend a weekend as a volunteer
    in the Emergency Room of County Hospital and report back to me.

    JL/ "...yellow bellied idiots like you should move to China, not Russia
    mind you, because they are trying to archive freedom and fools like you
    might spoil it for them if you carried your views over there.   THE MAD
    MAX" My reply: You grammar is unclear. Where did you want me to move away
    to?
    Is there a place far enough away where you won't be bothered by the
    Gospel? I doubt it. Freedom comes when we are bound to the Will of God
    for our lives, not when we happen to agree with someone. We only come to
    know our purpose and why we were created when we die with Jesus. It is
    the Cross that brings freedom, not guns in the hands of the name-callers
    of this world. If my belly is as yellow as the Apollo Users Collective
    claims it is, then I would probably fit right into China. I am going to
    stay here and keep rattling the cages of the self-righteous, ex-Army
    Ranger types, name-calling or not. So, my views will stay, Mr. Trained-
    Killer Mad Max. I will continue to take the "coward's" way out and state
    what I believe using my own name and without a gun to hide behind while
    doing it.

    Message: 66457
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 15:55:20

    Re:  "I haven't been called Rogey since I was 10 years old."

    If it was me, it must have been a typo.

    Message: 66458
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Middleton
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 16:06:40

    Re:  "SO! Let's think about the ENEMY... is it Soviet Tanks rolling down
    Central and running over unarmed innocents at the corner of Van Buren
    Street?"

    Ephesians 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against
    the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world
    and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    Message: 66459
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Reasonable
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 16:55:19

            Tell me Mike Middleton, what in your mind is reasonable Gun control?
    Anything like Poland?  Or more like Estonia?  Right now it is against the
    law for a felon to buy or own a gun.  Yet they do!  My problem with more
    laws (yes, they have plenty now) is that they keep hurting mr Good Guy, and
    not mr Bad Guy.

            As I pointed out in New York (and you went into name calling here,
    calling me a criminal) I was able to obtain hand guns at the age of ten.
    If I could do it as a small boy, could not a full grown criminal?  If for
    once you would get off your high horse, and answer some of thes questions,
    maybe we could converse without trying to get your attention by name
    calling.
            Answer.  Was it 'Reasonable' for the regestered Polish gun owners to
    be shot by the Russians even after the Germans had disarmed them?
            Was it 'Reasonable' to have the Red army shoot my relitives after
    gun control took away their weapons?
            Is it 'Reasonable' to assume that history can repeat its self?
            Is it 'Reasonable' that if we give up the Constitutional RIGHT to
    carry and bare arms, then the RIGHT to FREE Speech or the Right to religious
    belief of our choosing, can be taken away as easily?  Once the Guns are
    gone, it will even be an easier task.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66460
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Reasonable Mike
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 17:19:45

            From the Statistical Abstract  of the United States by the
    U.S. Bureau of the Census

            You are 26 times more likely to DIE in a car accident then from a
    gun.  You are 7 times more likely to die by falling down.  You are 2 times
    more likely to die by drowning.  You are 2.7 times more likely to die by
    being poisoned.

            Five years after the new 'GUN Control' law in New Jersey went into
    effect, murders rose by 65.7 %, rape rose 55.9%, and robbery jumped a
    staggering 245%

            Mike M. You need not fear me...  I would love to chat with you
    sometimes.  if you have a hysteria about this, then you should forget YOUR
    idea about standing infront of tanks naked, because I am of a far less
    threat.  No kidding, after handling weapons for 35 years, I have never hurt
    a sole... not a one!  I have never pulled a gun in anger... and I hope to
    God, that I never, never have to pull one on another man.

            If you THINK you saw real bad wounds in a hospital, I wish my
    Grandpa was still around to tell you what his family and whole village
    looked like when he came home after the Russians pulled out.  Problem was,
    back in those days, they thought they lived in modern times and things like
    that would not happen.      *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66461
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M...
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 17:20:23

            Again, welcome  back...  We missed ya!

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    {_
    Message: 66462
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 18:41:40

    Welcome back brother.

    Message: 66463
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: HUH >?<
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 19:00:50

    I was under the long-standing impression that nobody except the
    author of a message and the Sysop were capable of edting a non-status
    user's message.
    I too am in favor of actions before words...but I think you should
    lighten up on your snippity remark, Cliff, because I might not be
    the only other person who was unaware of that.
    Now before you think I'm upset , I'm not, nor do I really think your
    message was snippity. It was a little suprising though.

    Message: 66464
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 19:04:12

    Not at all. Being a "silent" user would be like me trying to
    hold my breath for 20 minutes after running a 2 mile sprint.
    I'd go blue in the face.
    Besides, you should also note that if we were to be literalists about
    the whole book, that passage would tell us to put our heads, thoughts
    and collective attentions in the sand whenever something "nasty"
    came up.
    I for one am not proud enough to ignore good advice from a good friend.
    So stop your wretching about it already.

    Message: 66465
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 19:30:44

    It probably was line noise. I have found that I get line noise when
    calling from an 862 exchange.

    Message: 66467
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod W. msg 66446
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 21:52:26

            Social graces....  You know...  Like only farting when no one is
    looking....  then leaving the area fast pretending someone else did it.
    If you need to brush up on these however...just watch Bart Simpson like I
    do.  He teaches me a lot!

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66468
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Middleton/Christ
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 22:13:56

            I don't think Christ was a gutless wimp, united in the fellowship of
    Peace.  On the contrary, he was the strongest Man I've imagined (reminds me
    of a First Sergeant in the 101st Airborne who told me I'd be a dead liberal
    if I didn't shape up.) The way he handled the money changers in the templed
    and the way he described what happens to the "luke warm" people who get spit
    out of God's mouth convince me that He was one strong Company Commander. He
    came with a mission, and he took no s--t from anyone in fulfilling it.  I
    think if it were available, He would not have used an AK-47 (not accurate
    enough), but He'd have qualified Expert or Sharpshooter with the M-1 or the
    03 Springfield, and I think one of them would have been his piece. And the
    .45 sidearm, with a full clip, but empty chamber. Right, Clif?
    Sorry for the typos--I don't edit well.    --John Cummings.--

    Message: 66469
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: The [S]hields!
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 22:40:16

    Scotty, can't you divert some power into the shields?  We're being attacked
    by non-$tatus users!

    Message: 66470
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Baptism
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 22:55:56

       Though one can become 'born again' without baptism, baptism is a washing
    of rebirth, and an assurance that we ARE born again.  Through the word of
    God in baptism the Holy Spirit creates or strengthens faith in us, so that
    we trust God's promise and make the blessings of baptism our own.

    Daryl
    (Ps 130:5-6)

    Message: 66471
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Geek Killer
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 23:02:47

       You consider valueless rubbish like that to be a bright spot? "Keep up
    the good work, geek killer, where ever you are"??!?!??!?
       Rod?
       Shall I take my bags of household trash and apply for a NEA grant to
    display them?  They contain more redeeming value than the aforementioned
    "Mongo(?)" posts.

    Daryl
    (Ps 130:5-6)

    Message: 66472
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: Mike C/Editing
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 23:17:29

    A $tatus user can't, at least not under his own $tatus account. But it is
    certainly easy enough to log in under a non-$tatus user's logged-in name to
    do so. Of course, this should be done with utmost discretion, and only for
    such purposes as editing and/or deleting obscene messages, as this can
    and does have potential to be abused.

    Daryl
    (Ps 130:5-6)

    Message: 66473
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/Philippians 4:8
    Date: 06/10/90  Time: 23:29:30

       No, I would disagree with you there. An alternate translation reads:
    "...keep your minds on all that is true, all that is noble, all that is
    right, all that is pure, all that is lovely, all that is appealing - on
    anything that is excellent or that deserves praise." (NET)
       The passage does not tell us to hide our heads in the sand.  But it does
    tell us not to dwell, pursue, or participate in the impure.  If we hide our
    heads, how can we expose sin for what it is?
       This is not to say that someone couldn't misinterpret this passage to
    justify an ostrich-like lifestyle. But that is not the fault of the text.

    Daryl
    (Ro 5:1-2)

    Message: 66474
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/geek killer
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:02:16

    Yes, I think we should give him (GK) honorary lifetime status.  At least
    (after you edited it) it was something different and really did no real harm
    (even before you edited it).  On the kid boards in town that particular fare
    would be considered real mild.

    Anytime I want to view so-called dirty words I log on one of them just so I
    can have a good laugh.  Don't worry, my friend, I'm already going to lleh so
    what more can be done to me.

    (Book of Bob v. 10,001-10,010)

    Message: 66475
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:04:11

    Read the rules, buddy.  It is illegal to log on under an assumed name unless
    you have paid for that name.  Besides, I strongly suspect that the Geek
    Killer was you all along.               -Rod

    Message: 66476
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl, your last
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:06:03

    Re: "alternate translations"

    Yes, there seems to be quite a few of them alternate translations.

    (Book of Bob v. 10,010-10,011)

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