### Apollo BBS Archive - December 17 - 25, 1989

    Message: 61959
    Author: Ray Meatcutter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ANN
    Date: 12/16/89  Time: 21:39:37

    ANN,Just thought I would let you know I got this far into the B.B.S. You
    like so much and found it to be VERY interesting. I will call you Monday and
    maybe we can figure out some way to link computers. Ray*

    Message: 61960
    Author: John Tyler
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: GABC
    Date: 12/16/89  Time: 23:35:10

    It's hard to forget a room packed with 300 men all shouting "BUSH!!!" over
    and over again, in unison.

    Message: 61961
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gambling
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 03:51:06

         I don't care much either way, but it'd be pretty hypocritical of
    the state to make gambling illegal when we have the Arizona Lottery taking
    place.

    Message: 61962
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT on roaches
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 03:58:08

    What is it about cockroaches that bugs you?

    Message: 61963
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/gambling
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 05:51:32

     For once we are in agreement on something. I think it is outright hypocrisy
    for the state to declare gambling illegal when they run a lottery and allow
    open parimutuel betting on horses and dogs, while millions of dollars of
    Arizona money cross the state lines into Nevada every month.
     It should also be noted that there is NO personal income tax, and NO
    corporate income tax in Nevada, and property taxes are minimal. OH! That we
    could enjoy such freedom from oppressive taxation every time some official
    (or someone whose pockets are full of official's hands) wants a new toy!

    Message: 61964
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gambling
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 08:05:25

    I'm not satisfied with the wording of the gambling question.  First, there
    could be a legalization of 'social' gambling.

    There is a second and third, but I can't think of them at the moment.

    Message: 61965
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 08:07:44

    I'll restate what Zak said...  I'm certainly not trying to badger you, but
    YOU *brought* up a subject then wouldn't discuss it.  Oh well.

    Message: 61966
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ray Meatcutter
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 09:21:28

    I kinda thought you'd like Apollo. You simply MUST get Procomm! We need to
    meet! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61967
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on gambling
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 09:24:45

    You put that so well and it's so much the truth. I knew that Nevada's
    property taxes were minimal, but I didn't know they paid no personal income
    tax or corporate income tax! How wonderful that would be. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61968
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pornography
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 10:24:15

      Zak, what do you mean? Pornography is "not in itself" evil? So, does that
    mean that kiddie porn and snuff porn are not evil either? I know your
    position on this, I'm just saying that you have to be consistent. Either
    pornographic material can be evil or it can't. And your "it's their fault"
    manner of dealing with alcoholics, drug or pornography addicts is a poor one
    (but that's my own opinion). Say you were to meet someone and in your
    conversation you found out that this guy was addicted to crack and was
    looking to free himself from it? Would you simply leave him to his own
    devices, figuring that "it's his problem, let him get out of it?"
      I know what pornography can do to the mind. I had started when I was
    young, discovering my father's secret stashes of girlie books. It continued
    (my indulgences into pornography) until about two years ago, when I got rid
    of every pornographic material I owned. I'm not saying that I am
    maladjusted, but when you expose yourself to so much continuous gratuitous
    sex between people who don't even know each other, it starts to affect you.
    My opinion of women had started to change from one of respectability to one
    in which I would continually fantasize about women that I knew and women
    that I had just met or merely noticed on the street. Now, I'm not one to act
    upon my fantasies (I pride myself on having a pretty strong will), but it
    was really starting to bother me. It would get to the point where the
    fantasies were almost involuntary. And it bothered me, because I didn't want
    it to happen.
      What I'm trying to say is that the commercial exploitation of the sexual
    act began to warp my moral values system. You are not going to find a single
    person on the face of this earth who has been exposed to pornography, in
    which it has not affected them to some extent, be it merely an immediate
    physical stimuli to mental stimulation, or a prolonged mental image of the
    material exposed to. In any sense, pornographic material reduces sex to the
    level of relievement of any primary impulse (going to the bathroom, for
    instance). It removes the mental and (for the most part) emotional aspects,
    and turns it into mere mating.

    Message: 61970
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/Sunsets
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 10:31:13

    Excuse me for waxing theologic, but:

    God created sunsets, he didn't create pornography.

    God created flowers, he didn't create crack.

    God created forests, he didn't create television violence.

    Sounds stupid, but think about it.

    Message: 61971
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Ann/Porn
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 10:33:56

    Allow me to drop in a few cents, here. There are good, well written sex
    therapy books that can show a married couple other ways in which to express
    their mutual love and to share in each other's enjoyment.

    To me, pornography does not serve this purpose in a positive way. It
    promotes homosexuality, lesbianism, multiple partners... To give it the
    guise of education doesn't wash with me.

    Message: 61972
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Marriage
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 10:40:06

      Have you looked in the paper lately and seen the divorce rate? Especially
    among people who cohabited prior to marriage? Marriage is not simply a
    contract to cover someone's hiney or to make sure they get their fair share
    if and when a divorce ever takes place. It is a mutual commitment, binding
    under law; both human, and God's, Who instituted it. It is an institution
    that people enter into because of their mutual love and lifelong devotion to
    each other. Now, I know you are going to say that even unmarried people can
    feel lifelong devotion to each other. THEN WHY NOT GET MARRIED? What's
    holding them back? A disbelief in "tradition?" That's a cop-out.

    Message: 61973
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Grave
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 10:42:33

    If the video claimed to depict a rape, and if rape repulses you, you should
    have put the tape back on the shelf. Even if it is hype, if a warning
    sticker on a video tells me about something that I do not wish to see, then
    I'm not about to spend my money on it. How realistic does a rape scene have
    to be before it bothers you?

    Message: 61974
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Westfall
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 11:01:42

    You mean you (shudder) have FANTASIES, and not just fantasies but SEXUAL
    fantasies, about WOMEN?  My GOD, boy, you are WARPED!  You ought to WASH
    your MIND out with SOAP!  PERVERTS like you shouldn't be allowed to ROAM the
    STREET!

    Message: 61975
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James H on Gambling
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 13:01:44

            My question was ment to be more like News 10's phone in question...
    Should "GAMBLING" be allowed or not!   There is no such vote if people go
    to the polls that ask "What kind of gambling would you sheeple like"..
    And then listing 77 kinds of gambling to chose from for your selection of
    one.  You BBS users can't even handle a Yes or No type question.
            Again...  without shades of white/gray/black....  do you think
    'GAMBLING' should be allowed in the state of Arizona....  (period!)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61976
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Westfall
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 13:18:07

            Why do you need a licence from the STATE to get married?  You should
    only want a CHURCH to recognize your pledge.  God does not recognize the
    state.  You have turned over your life to the state with such a licence, and
    the state is not very fair in most cases.  The only winners are the lawyers!

            Yes, there are churches who will witness the vows without the state
    having anything to do with it.  If you feel you need protecting from your
    partner in life....  then just maybe you made the commitment for the WRONG
    reasons.

            The marriage licence was not always needed.  I believe it came to be
    when a black person wanted to marry a white person.  The black people needed
    the permission of the state to do such a thing... It caught on, since it was
    a nice way the state could make money, and control your life.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61977
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Joke??
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 15:28:38

    I just heard about the dyslexic atheist who doesn't believe in Dog.

    Message: 61978
    Author: Ray Meatcutter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ANN
    Date: 12/17/89  Time: 21:06:50

    ANN I'll call you monday by noon to see if we can get IT together over the
    phone lines.(My wife thinks things are getting a little kinky here). I like
    this B.B.S. but I'm afaid the phone charges would kill me.Talk to you soon.
    Ray

    Message: 61980
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/18/89  Time: 04:33:04

         I disagree that "either pornography is evil, or it isn't."  There are
    degrees of pornography, and different types.  I'm not limited to being one
    extreme or another; if there is a good reason, I feel comfortable taking a
    stand anywhere.  Why do things have to be black and white?
         Kiddie and snuff pornography are very extreme examples.  My own
    personal belief is that they are wrong because there is something highly
    immoral taking place.  Children being forced to participate in sex is very
    wrong (or anyone being forced, for that matter).  Even if the children do so
    voluntarily (or for a "reward,") it's wrong because children are too young
    and innocent to make a fair decision.  I believe children should definitely
    be protected from such things.  Consenting adults is another story.
         Snuff porn is also wrong for the same reason:  somebody is being killed
    or hurt -- somebody's rights are being violated.  If the violence is staged,
    again, that's another story.

         As to your question, what would I do if I found out somebody I met were
    a crack addict?  Honestly, I don't know.  What do you think I should do?  Do
    you think there is a moral obligation there?

    Message: 61981
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/18/89  Time: 04:44:20

         Your mini-autobiography was interesting.  It sounds like you
    overindulged and found out you'd made a mistake.  Maybe it did have an
    effect on the way you thought of women.  But now you know better, that there
    is more to women than their bodies, right?  Aren't you glad you had the
    freedom to make your own choice about it?
         Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with fantasies on a
    small scale, as long as they aren't taken seriously.  Everyone daydreams
    about things; it's perfectly normal.  You may daydream about strangling your
    boss, but you know you won't really do it.  If you're smart, you'll laugh at
    it.  You may dream about having sex with somebody you know casually, but you
    know it's not likely to happen.  What's wrong with that?  What's wrong with
    accepting your thoughts and realizing that you're human for having them?
         I don't see why you can't both fantasize about AND respect women.  (The
    same for men.)  Not that anyone ought to go around fantasizing about people,
    but they shouldn't tell themselves that they're bad if they find their
    thoughts moving in that direction.

         I haven't seen any hard-core pornography that I found the least bit
    appealing.  (In some cases, it was repulsive.)  I don't see anything wrong
    with soft-core (though to set the record straight, I'm not a consumer of
    it).  I don't feel the need to dictate my tastes to others on the matter --
    if somebody else is into it, that's his or her business.  I wouldn't support
    a move to make soap operas (which I also find repulsive) illegal, and the
    same goes for porn.

    Message: 61982
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/marriage
    Date: 12/18/89  Time: 09:14:39

    I just believe that all those things can exist without the marriage
    contract. If you are comitted to that certain person, that piece of paper
    isn't going to make it better. Marriage to me is in the heart, not with the
    government or a pastor, priest or minister. That piece of paper is nothing
    but a binding legal contract.

    Daryl:  "........ cohabited prior to marriage?"
    Ann: "In this day and age, I would not even think about marrying anyone
    without the above! That is one of the most important aspects of marriage. I
    would go so far as to say that people should live together for awhile also.
    To not do these things is like putting your money in a slot machine and hope
    you win right off! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61983
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on rape
    Date: 12/18/89  Time: 09:19:54

    Of course, rape repulses me at all times - but if it has to do with a story
    line - such as in 'Sudden Impact' for example, that's one thing, but to show
    it in close detail in all gore and to go on and on, is another. The entire
    picture was nothing but that. I felt it wasn't showing rape in particular,
    but showing a woman nude - at all angles for the benefit of the male
    viewers. Anyway, this is my opinion of the movie - you have another I guess.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61984
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/18/89  Time: 12:22:08

      It sounds like your problems with pornography may be hereditary. You
    assume to much about other people, and you believe too much baseless rumor
    concerning child pornography.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 61985
    Author: John Russell
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl/61970
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 00:16:34

    God created disease.

    God created natural disasters.

    God created death.

    God created a system where the only means of survival is the destruction of
    other life, often sentient life.

    Sounds stupid, but think about it.  (I did, and lookee, I'm an atheist.)

    Message: 61986
    Author: John Russell
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porn
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 00:22:22

    How could viewing images *make* anyone do anything?
    Porn no more makes men commit crimes or have irresponsible sex any more than
    alcohol makes men drive drunk.  Don't believe me?  Get drunk.  Watch some
    porn.  Did you drive drunk?  Did you rape anyone?  If you did, it was
    already a part of you; the stimuli were merely carrots dangling in front of
    your snout.  If you don't happen to like carrots...

    To use a cliche, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him
    drink.

    Message: 61987
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 05:50:18

    You need to look up "cohabit" in the dictionary. (It and "living together"
    are the same thing.)

    Message: 61988
    Author: Lynn Ypoche
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on cohabitation
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 10:23:26

    I wonder what she thought it meant.

    Message: 61989
    Author: Lynn Ypoche
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 10:24:58

    You said in one of your messages that there is a difference in the divorce
    rates of people who cohabited prior to marriage, and people who did not
    cohabitate prior to marriage.

    How did they differ, and can you remember approximate percentages for each?
    (You said you'd read about it in the paper.)

    Message: 61990
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 10:36:12

      People of earlier generations tended not to live together before marriage,
    and to stay married no matter how miserable they were. Any statistics
    purporting to show that cohabitation correlates with divorce would need to
    take age differences into account if it were to have any meaning.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 61991
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Keating, Swaggart
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 11:05:31

         Charles Keating has been one of America's leading anti-pornography
    'kingpins'.  His Estrella (sp?) community here in Arizona is open only to
    the morally righteous, who must live up to certain standards.  If any
    pornographic material is found in someone's possession, that person is
    immediately kicked out.  Even if it's only the Sports Illustrated swimsuit
    issue.
         But now we find that Chuck is the top contender in more than one
    arena.  Charles Keating is also America's leading crook, God bless him.
    Though not yet convicted of anything, it's almost certain that Keating is
    guilty, and the $2.5 billion he sucked up is sure to come out of our pockets
    -- somewhere in the area of $400 each.  He didn't eat his moral fiber
    cereal, and was thus constipated with corruption.
         Another example of a big finger-pointer whose finger needs to make a
    180 degree turn is Jimmy Swaggart.  Everyone's heard about Swaggart hiring
    women to do a little porno-dance in front of him while he turned the knob on
    his body's own Playboy Channel.  (Actually, not everyone has heard about it.
    The 'Mighty' Apollo Sysop hasn't heard.)  I wonder how it would feel to send
    in your money for the good of God, only to find out that it was being spent
    to hire women to dance naked while somebody masturbated.  I'd be somewhat
    angry.  But, we must forgive Swaggart.  He's only human!  Even though he
    wasn't living up to the standards he imposed on everybody else, we should
    let him off the hook.  At least he doesn't have idle hands.  (You know what
    they say about the Devil finding work for idle hands.  ...Work such as...
    ...hmmm...such as pornography.)

    Message: 61992
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: pornography
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 15:22:23

         Pornography can be metaphorically compared to hanguns.  I know that a
    lot of this board's users are pro-gun, so this may serve a useful purpose.
         Handguns are not intrinsically bad; pornography is not intrinsically
    bad.  (For the record, let's assume it's not 'snuff porn' or 'kiddie porn.')
         You wouldn't just hand a loaded gun to a child.  That child might not
    understand how to use the gun, or not understand the seriousness of it.  He
    might not think it's real, and might pretend-shoot it at somebody.
    Likewise, you wouldn't just hand a pornographic video tape to a child.  That
    child might not understand what the video is for, or think what the actors
    are doing is the way people are supposed to behave sexually.  The child
    might think it's real, and that he ought to do what the people on the screen
    are doing.
         However, if a child is educated about the value of human life and the
    proper, safe methods of using a gun, it might be OK for him to be handed a
    loaded gun.  Not that it'd be a good idea if there weren't a purpose behind
    it, but it wouldn't be a completely stupid thing to do.  ...Likewise, if a
    child is educated about the value of intimate, caring relationships between
    men and women and proper, safe methods of sexual intercourse (proper to one
    may not be proper to another), it might be OK to let that child see
    pornography.  Not that it'd be a good idea if there weren't a purpose to it,
    but it wouldn't endanger the child's chance for emotional health.
         In the previous paragraph, however, the conditions for letting a child
    have access to a gun or porn are unlikely.  However, in adults, those
    conditions are at the least very possible.  Thus, porn should remain legal.

    Message: 61993
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: In search of
    Subject: tape deck
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 15:23:35

    Does anyone have or know of someone who has a single-cassette tape-deck unit
    they'd be willing to sell?

    Message: 61994
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: In search of
    Subject: reach
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 15:39:14

    What long distance companies have the best sound quality?

    Message: 61995
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 23:23:53

    Well, I can tell you that DIAL AMERICA probably has the $#!+iest
    othe four companies I've been through. AT&T has nice lines and
    prices to match, Republic Telecom $ucks rocks, Western Union
    is worse because they never re-sync their multiplexers and you get
    all kinds of line noise calling long distance on a modem..and it's
    LOCAL noise. So far I have no complaints with MCI..always get a great
    modem-to-modem connection..and that's between here an KANATA Canada.
    That's my $.02 worth.

    Message: 61996
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on Porn
    Date: 12/19/89  Time: 23:42:55

    (1) Your assertion porn isn't "bad" is simply your interpretation
    which in light of other views is somewhat near-sighted.
    (2) Comparing porn to a loaded handgun is some respects has merit.
    The missing issues here being; design,intent and philosophy.
    Weapons are designed to aid in destruction. A weapon would be useless
    otherwise. Porn is designed to pervert and to entertain the perverse.
    Porn would be analogous to alochol...morseo than a hand-gun....but your
    purpose here was to elicit synonymous sympathetic side-lines defending
    ownership of wepaons "which so many of you are pro-gun".
    Using the arguments defending weapons, you could conceivably create a good
    straw-man for your own to keep porno legal. Let's face the facts...
    Shall we take the avenue of which is worse? Ludicrous..simply because the
    most logical solution is to ban humans and institute behavioural policing
    beyond what we see now. The problem as I see it with the porn issue is
    where you classify what is "pornographic" and what isn't. These adult
    bookstores go far beyond my definition point of pornographic.
    Using "love" and healthy sexual response arguments are also straw-men.
    I don't know what mentality or frame of mind someone would have to have
    to need pornography to stimulate these actions with a married couple.
    Love and lovemaking is a special and very private part of a marriage..
    pornography cheapens that by making it a public issue and thus
    degenerates sex and love into instant gratification by its sheer
    availability and social acceptance. Look at what is happening to abortion.
    Look what has happened to marital statistics. Guff as you may,the facts stay

    Message: 61997
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 04:10:30

    Looks like we've sent troops into Panama to apprehend Noriega. I do hope we
    succeed.

    Message: 61998
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Nick/last
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 06:19:20

     The last I heard, troops was one of Bush's options, but I had not heard
    that they were in place as yet. Some high defense official was quoted as
    saying that we could have the whole situation, including Noriega, under
    control by sundown. I agree. I hope they succeed. It's about time we stopped
    pussy-footing arond with these two bit punks around the world. Khadaffi
    should be next, and probably Arafat as well, just to give a message to the
    rest of the terrorists of the world that we've had enough of their garbage.

    Message: 61999
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Noriega
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 07:14:59

            Turn on your radio, Paul.  There are 24,000 US troops in Panama City
    right now.  Noriega hasn't been caught as of yet.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 62000
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: pornography and guns
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 07:48:26

    Pornography is created for a bad purpose?  Can you honestly believe that
    guns were not created to kill?

    Message: 62001
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porn & Guns
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 08:25:42

            In years past, Guns were used heavily to put food on the table and
    to protect our pioneer forefathers as they settled this nation.  Guns were
    used to fight for our independence from England, to fight for freedom in
    World War I & II (and other wars)  Guns can even the odds today when a big
    strong criminal tries to overpower a weaker person who would normally be
    unable to defend themselves.  Guns can be used for GOOD reasons as well as
    BAD reasons...like ANY TOOL!
            Now... Just what good does PORN do?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62002
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on your post
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 08:55:18

    You know, showing a child two people engaging in intercourse isn't a bad
    idea if done under the right circumstances. It could take the place of
    telling the the story of the birds & bees! Sex is something we all do - were
    put here to do - a basic instinct so to speak. There is nothing dirty about
    it - only the people can make it so. Showing the film and then being sure to
    tell that child that that isn't all there is to it! That the difference
    between us and the animals is we have a choice to make it a loving part of
    our lives, not just rutting in the haystack. It would certainly beat the
    heck out of some tale or beating around the bush when it comes time to tell
    the children. I think I can speak from experience with the way I learned -
    which was no way at all because in my day and age, your parents didn't tell
    you about such things. You learned from your kiddy friends and of course, it
    made it nasty and forbidding. Would you believe that I actually believed
    that the way a women got preg. was that her stomach heard the marriage vows
    and produced a baby? Funny? Yes, but can you believe my devistation when a
    pal told me how they really came about? I thought how could a baby come from
    something so nasty! If I could have been shown such a film at a young age, I
    don't think I would have thought much about it nor would it have corrupted
    me in the least. I would have known the truth! We STILL have a long way to
    go with these sexual hang-ups we have. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62003
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Founding fathers
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 09:37:43

    Actually, many of them never left England, as you say. Their parents, or
    grandparents, or GREAT grandparents did. Your point is not valid.

    Any similarities are due to the fact that certain laws only make sense in a
    civilized country. Even in China and India, murder is frowned up(unless you
    happen to be a government soldier). And they are not Christian nations.

    Message: 62004
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Porno
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 09:41:17

    Is only as offensive as those that are watching find it. To me, I might like
    watching straight sex in films, you might like waste products in with it.
    I would watch the first, and either fast forward through the latter. Or not
    buy or rent the materials at all.

    Along the same line, did you hear that Glendale is making a deal with a car
    dealership so they will have an excuse to get rid of Book Cellar?

    And, about Linda Lovelace and Deep Throat, she sure seems to enjoy it, even
    if she was forced.

    Message: 62006
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Old/Gambling
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 12:19:20

    Gambling  can bring in tax money if legalized...
    Gambling  can also bring in undesirables...

    Should Gambling be legalized in Arizona?

    [A]  NO!

    [B]  YES!

    [C]  I just do not care one way or another.

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 8    [B] 10   [C] 5

    Message: 62007
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: [V]ote results
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 15:35:10

    Congrats to Cliff for following the public will (as shown by my vote) and
    putting the results up when the vote ends.

    Message: 62008
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Current Vote
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 16:39:36

            Here we have Panama declare WAR on the U.S. Friday...  And then kill
    an unarmed American officer on Saturday.  And the current vote showes me you
    think we should do nothing.   All I can say is that Americans are cowards to
    protect their oun.   The U.S. also got plans that they were going to strike
    at American communities within days.   This is even all after the so called
    Panama election by the people was over ruled by Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega
    because he would have been removed from power.

            I think we should have forcibly removed Noriega when he violated
    the Vote of the people.  We as Americans have rights we have earned with
    spilled blood and sweat in Panama.

            How many of you have been there?   I have!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62009
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 17:07:35

      Cheer up Cliff. As of now the vote is tied.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 62010
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 17:30:13

    As of now, it is 4-3 Yes! for what we did.

    Cliff, why do you think that we own this hemisphere?  The Monroe Doctrine
    was put into place to keep European politics from screwing up the
    countries/peoples in this hemisphere.  It is now out-of-date, or misused to
    justify our mucking about inside of countries.

    Do you think that we should send tanks/troops into the Soviet Union, South
    Africa, Romania, China, or other countries where the word of the people
    would clearly be against the current government?

    Message: 62011
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last on hemisphere
    Date: 12/20/89  Time: 17:45:54

            Of course we don't own this hemisphere!  However, we have a large
    stake in Panama.  We have a drug smuggler that the courts have declared we
    have the right to go in and take him out.  He threatened American lives, who
    have the right to be there under a treaty between the United States and
    Panama.  The canal Zone is really ours.....till we turn it over.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62012
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 03:49:42

    I'm sure that if any of the countries you mentioned declared war on the
    U.S., and began murdering its citizens, action would be taken.

    Message: 62013
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alan/Noriega
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 06:08:25

    As of the time I entered the message yesterday AM, I had not heard the good
    news. I certainly hope that we do not lose too many lives before that
    blowhard is caught and dispatched. Personally, I find myself hoping that
    they have to kill him in the process, rather than bring him here for some
    bleeding heart American "justice" as it is practiced today. If he stands
    trial in the U.S., some circuit court judge is liable to rule that the
    government took away his office illegally, and hand Panama back to him!

    Message: 62014
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B/ Dog/porn & guns
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 06:10:11

    Guns were also created to defend and protect.
    I can think of no really beneficial or productive aspect to pornography.

    Message: 62015
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gambling vote
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 06:13:35

    Hmmm. That was a lot closer than I thought it would be. I', somewhat
    surprised.

    Message: 62016
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B. Dog on Panama
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 06:19:03

     The Monroe doctrine wasn't used in the action in Panama. The U.S. exercized
    it's rights and responsibility under a treaty that was signed with Panama at
    the time the canal was turned over to them, a treaty that was designed to
    protect the interests of the U.S. in Panama, as well as the resident
    Americans living there, some 35,000 of them.
     THere was no question as to the danger that existed to both, and the action
    that was taken (finally!) was perfectly justified and necessary.
     Bush might even tarnish his "wimp" image a little with this one!

    Message: 62017
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: War
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 07:08:32

    I am not at all sure we did the right thing by going to Panama. Too many
    questions. I.E. Under the circumstances of what the atmosphere has been
    like, why are Americans still there just waiting to be killed?  Why didn't
    all of them pull out and then find a way to assinate Noriega?  What is this
    fight really over - drugs? A declaration of war against the U.S. by Noriega?
    A terrible dictatorship or is it really over the Panama canal? Are we
    looking for an excuse to take it back? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62018
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 09:53:29

      Bringing up drug dealing and  talking about holding on to the canal zone
    in spite of our agreement to turn it over to panama discredit our
    intervention there and can only make the rest of Central and South America
    wonder when it will be their turn to be invaded by us.
      Noriega's declaration of war, if it is as it has been reported, and the
    violence which was planned against Americans there, if this is as it has
    been reported, do make a strong case for some kind of intervention.
      Putting a price on Noriega's head sounds like something the Ayatolla might
    have done to someone in a foreign cou{tr{ whom he wanted to destroy. The
    whole idea of bringing Noriega here on drug charges sounds outrageous. Are
    we next going to launch commando raids to bring back people from Holland to
    face charges here?
      There is a good face which can be put on this move, especially since
    Noriega was set up by the  U.S. to some extent and refused to allow a duly
    elected government of Panama to take office, but the other elements I have
    mentioned leave us open to being viewed as imperialists when they are given
    as reasons for invading a sovereign nation.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 62019
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: sysop/american_right
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 09:59:11

    We American have a right to intervene in the internal affairs of a sovreign
    nation ? Does the USSR have the same right ? Does China ? Does Iran ? What
    makes US so special ?

    Message: 62020
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul/porn
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 10:07:23

    Guns are designed to kill or to do great bodily harm. Porn is designed
    to sexually arouse a person. Which is worse, killing or sex ? I think that
    we Americans have our values all screwed up. Bible-belters scream bloody
    murder if they see naked flesh on the TV screen, but don't even flinch when
    they see someone brutally murdered on TV on the TV news. Now what do you
    prefer to see- a celebration of life and sexuality or death, Paul ?

    Message: 62021
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Bird
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 10:49:22

    This is being entered on behalf of a person who works with me and is moving
    to Australia.

    FREE FREE FREE to a good home.

    Small blue parakeet/budgerigar.
    Answers to the name of 'SHANKLEY' (after the Liverpool Football
    Club manager)

    Includes: Cage and stand and toys.

    Wish to place this crazy fun guy into safe hands because I am
    re-locating to Australia.

    CONTACT: Nige Willson Ph 862-4942 days
    after Dec 22nd @ 978-3920 (home)

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 62022
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 11:27:21

            We have a vested interest in the Panama Canal.  We built it!  It was
    U.S. territory for many years.  The Zone gets turned over to Panama in (I
    believe) 1999.  There are many Americans there running the operation of the
    Canal that is vital to U.S. interest. (That is why they did not just up and
    run away Ann).

            Are you suggesting that the President should have just let them
    murder the Americans over there?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62023
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger again..
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 11:31:15

            Yes, Guns can KILL....when protecting your life... So can clubs and
    knives.  However a gun can make a small person able to defend themselves
    against a bigger person.

    Message: 62024
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: protecting americans
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 12:33:32

    This is the function of the government.  However, the government is not
    supposed to mess in the internal affairs of other governments, for any
    reasons.  We could easily have protected the USians in Panama by gathering
    them onto our bases and shipping them back home. We clearly have no trouble
    using the base to protect the canal (and, really, no Panamanians are ever
    going to want to harm it, anyway - it is their lifeblood).

    What would you have thought if Canada had decided to intervene in the
    'anointing' of politicians during the dirty days of Boss Tweed, Mayor Daley,
    et al?  Many of those elections were 'unfair' or downright 'illegal' -- and
    yet the citizens of the US didn't do anything?  Why not?  Why do we think we
    know best about how other peoples should live their lives?

    So, *some* action is clearly justified to protect americans, assuming that
    they were really threatened.  Suggesting that they go home, go to the
    embassy, or head to the airbase is a reasonable first step -- and exactly
    the sort of thing we've done in the past in other countries.  Blowing up
    military headquarters and installing a government is immoral.

    Message: 62025
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 15:47:45

    Re:  "troops into Panama to apprehend Noriega"

    What a surprise!  I hear the rat got away.  I hope they can find him and
    bring him to justice.

    Message: 62026
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 15:57:01

    Re:  "some circuit court judge is liable to rule that the
    government took away his office illegally, and hand Panama back to him!"

    I can see that coming and I think so can the Epeople who are after him.  If
    he is caught, he will probably die fighting it.  If nothing else, it will
    save the tax payers a lot of money.  And we'll need the savings after this
    little war.

    Message: 62027
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 16:32:23

    We put Noriega in power, we have every right to take him out.  Next you guys
    will start whining about how terrible it is that Gorbachev is interfering in
    the affairs of sovereign nations in Eastern Europe and pressuring them to
    abandon communism.

    Message: 62028
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: messing in Eastern E
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 16:54:04

    Well, James, now that you mention it... I would be upset if he sent tanks
    rolling through the streets of Romania.

    Message: 62029
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mann
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 17:17:18

    "Re:  "Bible-belters scream bloody murder if they see naked flesh on the
    TV screen"

    They don't scream half as loud as the heathens do when they see a nativity
    scene at city hall or someone praying in school.

    Hope you have a "MERRY CHRISTMAS" Roger!

    Message: 62030
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Christmas
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 20:14:09

            As Christmas day draws nearer, we are finding ourselves busy with
    holiday festivities and maybe not enough time for BBSing.  So before you all
    vanish for the joy of the season, Sandy, Travis, Tyler, Skipper, Count Spot,
    the fish and I, (the Mighty Apollo SysOp) wish to wish all you wonderful
    users and your families a most Joyful and Merry Christmas.

    =*= The SysOps of Apollo =*=

    Message: 62031
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: MLK
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 22:17:07

            The Holiday looks like it will be up to a VOTE by the citizens of
    Arizona.  This is how it should have been to begin with. Sandy and I will be
    voting it down, just in case you forgot how we feel about it.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62032
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: General Noriega
    Date: 12/21/89  Time: 22:22:09

            One Million is the reward... Sorta makes me wish I was down there.
    Bur serious, do you think they will catch him?  If and when they catch him,
    will they kill him or bring him to the States?  The CIA may not wish him to
    talk....

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62033
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: General Noriega
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 01:19:29

    Why didn't we offer a million dollars the day the indictment was handed
    down?  Why did we wait until we'd botched the attempt to capture him?

    Perhaps Georgie-boy doesn't want him alive?  After all, Manny man just know
    something about the Iran-Contra affair that the current President wants to
    keep hidden?

    Message: 62034
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 03:20:19

    Here's an example of generalization gone berzerk.
    "Guns are designed to kill or to do great bodily harm."
    "Bible-belters scream bloody murder if they see naked flesh on the
    TV screen, but don't even flinch when they see someone brutally murdered
    on TV on the TV news."
    So tell me exactly how many Christians have you sat and watched view
    TV and written down their responses? I'll bet this is just another
    fine example of a hethen breathen bull$hit.
    As for the Guns....did you ever consult the Chinese ?
    Guns *aren't* designed to: "kill or to do great bodily harm"
    It seem you have a hangup in this world of over generalization. Perhaps
    your grasping for straws to make some hiddeously stupid point.
    GUns were made and are made as tools of destruction. The simpletons
    of this world, the brain-dead and the namby-pamby n'eer do-wells with
    aristocratic enemas plugging their ears can't seem to understand that
    there are hostile turds out there who'd love to take advantage of
    any idiot that sits waiting like a fat duck for them.
    Hostile Jackasses and I have one thing in common; We don't like to
    get hurt.
    Perhaps a good dose of reality and a few years of political science
    and human studies will wash the fecal matter out of your auditory canal.
    Maybe then you will understand I'll shoot before being shot in my own
    home. -Gee..all of a sudden it may make sense!
    Go ahead and foam yourself up on a Penthouse in public. Masturbate already.

    Message: 62035
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornbird
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 03:55:50

    Bob, thou art such a weenie.
    Us heathens have every right to get pissed if there is a nativity scene
    being PAID FOR by the public's taxes.  Not to mention Jews, Buddhists, and
    Muslims.
    You're fighting a straw man over your "prayiing in school" comment.  I don't
    care if kids pray in school, as long as they aren't forced or pressured into
    it.

    Message: 62036
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pornography
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 04:02:50

    Mike Carter sayeth that guns AREN'T created to kill or do bodily harm.  Then
    he goes on to sayeth that guns are "tools for destruction."  Make up your
    mind, Mike!  (And you're calling *others* brain dead?)

    Gee, you're all absolutely correct -- I can't see any tangible benefits to
    pornography, so let's make it illegal.  Of course, there might be benefits
    to others that I don't know about, but who cares!  They're perverts anyway,
    right?  So screw 'em.  (Of course, in the case of Jim Bakker and Jimmy
    Swaggart, they're ONLY HUMAN, and ought to be forgiven.)  You know, I also
    can't see any benefits to alcohol, soap operas, heavy metal, country and rap
    music, polyester pants, game shows, cigarettes, candy bars, romance novels
    and Rubik's Cubes.  Let's make them all illegal too.  Some of them have
    obvious bad effects, some don't, and some we're not sure about.  But let's
    make a big bonfire and throw them all the hell in anyway!  Burn baby burn!

    And remember:  Pornography doesn't pervert people.  People pervert
    people.

    Message: 62037
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Noriega
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 04:18:52

         The way I see it, Noriega is this little political nerd with a big
    mouth who enjoys stirring up trouble.  It's like a midget tainting Arnold
    Schwarzenegger (hi ann).  And now that we've sent our big bad guns after the
    little wimp, he's disappeared into a hole.  Ha ha!  Bush has been waiting
    for months to pull out his big thang, and now he has no one to shoot it at.
    But, on the other hand, there's nothing worse than having an itch you can
    never scratch.  I'm sure the itch won't be back for a while.  Incidentally,
    I just received a large package in the mail and it has Noriega's head in it.
    Can anyone help me figure out what to do with it?  Can somebody hold onto it
    for me, please?

    Message: 62038
    Author: Santa Claus
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: presents
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 04:49:35

    Sorry kids, no presents this year.

    Message: 62039
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 06:05:55

     That question is as bad as "When did you stop beating your wife?" Roger.
     Of corse I abhor death, especially violent death, in any form, either on
    the news or in a movie/play or whatever. In the same light, I do not
    consider pornography to be an honest portrayal of what you call life and
    sexuality. I consider it to be a perversion, or rather group of perversions
    of that which was intended to be the ultimate expression of love from one
    person to another. When a group of people prostitute themselves and lower
    themselves to perform all sorts of sexual perversions for money, not only do
    they denigrate the act itself and reduce it to an animal level of release,
    they also do a poor job of acting, since those I have seen on the porno
    screen are, in toto, a lousy bunch of no talent talent. THey even have to
    have somebody off camera doing a lot of their grunts and groans for them,
    since they obviously have no feeling for what they are doing.
    If that's "life" and "sexuality", thanks but no thanks.

    Message: 62040
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Poll
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 07:53:40

    Results of a poll in the paper this morning indicated that 97% of the
    population expresses a belief in "God."  (No indication which god, but the
    implication is the Judeo/Christian/Mohammedan one.)

    In the face of all this superstition, perhaps the local atheists may begin
    to believe they're merely spitting into the wind.  The next thing you know,
    our local know-nothings will soon be humming carols and muttering prayers
    under their breath.

    To all of you who think you don't believe, consider the attitude of the head
    of the Soviet Union, Mr. Gorbachev, who attributed the downfall of Communism
    in his country to a lack of moral teaching.

    Merry Christmas, you all!

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 62041
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Panama
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 09:12:13

    Stop me if I'm wrong, but we wern't the only country that built the Canal!

    Wouldn't they "just up and running away" be better than getting killed?

    To be truthful, I'm torn regarding this whole affair. The only question I
    really want answered is - why are our troops the only one's getting killed
    when the other big nations are in agreement? Why wasn't this a joint effort
    man power wise? Sure, it was a surprise (supposedly) but it isn't too late
    for other nations to enter the fight and get killed along with our boys!
                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62042
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/the head
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 09:18:15

    Please don't send it to my doorstep! I've had several weird things (or is
    that Thang's?) put there this past year! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62043
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Zak on weenie
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 10:10:39

            You heathens do not mind paying tax money for a Santa Claus scene
    but get upset if there is a nativity scene that showes the REAL reason for
    CHRISTmas... now who is the weenie.  There are MORE CHRISTIAN tax payers
    then there are heathen tax payes, so what is your beef?  Are you saying we
    Christians have no rights?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62044
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann on Panama
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 10:35:42

            Ann, the French tried but failed...  It was the Americans who
    engineered and built the Panama Canal.  We did it Ann as a nation because we
    saw the importance of it.
            As for getting up and running away...maybe we should abandon this
    country too...Ann?   What a coward you are!!!  Why should OTHER troops get
    involved to protect an American Zone and American lives?  Do you know how
    many lives were lost building  the canal Ann?  And you think we should run.
    I am dissapointed in you greatly.  We should have ran from Pearl Harbor in
    Hawaii also.

    The Panama Canal Zone was leased to the U.S. in 1904 as a perpepual lease.
    The Canal Zone is a U.S. military reservation consisting of a strip of land
    extending 5 miles on either side of the Panama Canal.  (362 sq. miles)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62045
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 12:45:16

      Bring me the head of Manuel Noriega! It can watch Buckaroo Banzai with us.
    It might like the brain surgery scenes, who knows? Afterward we can figure
    out a way to sell it to Bush.
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 62046
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 14:30:25

      I see there is a headline in the paper today that 81% of Panamanians
    supported Bush in a poll. I didn't read the story to find out if it was
    George or another kind of Bush.
       See You Later,
           Dean H.

    Message: 62047
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Gary/62040
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 15:53:59

    Do you have a point?

    Message: 62048
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on weenie
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 15:59:04

    More Christian taxpayers than non-Christian taxpayers?  Let's see some
    statistics.  Who is the weenie?

    Santa Claus is fine; Santa is part of the Christmas holiday that everybody
    celebrates.  Christmas is a part of our general culture, and as such I have
    no problem with it.  I see it as a holiday of giving.  Obviously to
    Christian and Jews, it has more to it than that.  Pagans are also
    celebrating the Winter Solstice.  The taxpayer money should go to things
    that do no bow to one denomination or another.  Christians do not have more
    rights than anybody else.

    Would it be OK with you if taxpayer money went into a huge display of
    Hannukah-related symbols, and nothing else?

    Message: 62049
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 17:16:06

            You say Santa Claus is fine because EVERYBODY celebrates it?  Wrong
    dog breath...  I do not believe in Santa and resent it being put above the
    Christ child.  We do not have a Christmas tree either... it's commercialism
    of a religious holiday for the WRONG reasons.
            I did not say we Christians have more rights then you heathens, it
    seems we have less rights even tough we greatly outnumber you.  In short, it
    is the cry baby heathens that seem to get their way.
            Gary's point was clear...  too bad you are blind to truth.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62050
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak weenie
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 17:39:46

    Well golly gee whiz. Please tell me HOW...*HOW* a gun can pick
    itself up and ker-blooey all by itself. Brain dead? Gimme a break!
    Anyone who hallucinates how guns are designed to kill by themselves
    is indeed brain dead.
    A capability of GUNS is to Kill, maim, injure, screwup , bodily dammage.
    It all depends on the USER. (Wow..a NEW concept..)
    It'd be like me saying; Let's outlaw CARS because they're designed
    to pollute the air and kill people.
    It hold some truth, but only that which fits my purpose..just like your
    assertion on the *design* of guns.
    As for PORN...never expect me, any other rational person, to swallow
    your pathetically weak line of it's good benefits and *purpose*.
    Garbage is Garbage. $hit is $hit. Only the brain dead and morally
    corrupt of this world want to change that..they want to call $hit
    lemmon marangue, and Garbage "education".
    Go stuff your stocking full of porn and feed it to your kids in the
    name of almighty bigger and better education!
    Just *DON't* expect MY kids to be fed that assinine brand of
    self-righteous mastubatory gratification in the name of clean sex.
    I spit on your tabloid.

    Message: 62051
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: News Today
    Subject: The Good News!
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 18:30:44

    God loves even me.

    I would like to wish all of you a Very Merry Christmas from all of us!

    May God bless you all at this special time of year when we remember the
    birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

    Amen!

    Message: 62052
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 18:34:39

    Re:  "Bob, thou art such a weenie."

    Woops!  I must have touched a nerve there with my "heathen" comment.

    Merry Christmas to you Zak!

    Message: 62053
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 18:39:11

    The reward for Manuel Noriega's head has just gone up.  I will add $10 to
    the kitty.  Now it is $1,000,010.  Gee, I never offered money for a "Wanted,
    dead or alive" poster.

    Message: 62054
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 18:40:42

    Re:  "Would it be OK with you if taxpayer money went into a huge display of
    Hannukah-related symbols, and nothing else?"

    Sure!  Why not?

    Message: 62055
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: the bible's origin
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 19:14:16

    Bob, you should read the book _Who Wrote the Bible?_ by Richard E. Friedman,
    if you haven't already.

    Message: 62056
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/2 Tim 3:16
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 19:16:34

    That says "scriptures", not "the Bible".  The Bible wasn't assembled until
    long after that passage was written.  How do you determine which
    "scriptures" it was referring to?  It obviously wasn't referring to the
    Bible, since it didn't exist yet.

    Message: 62057
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: heathens
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 19:34:30

    I mind paying taxes for a Santa Claus scene.

    What's worse about government spending money on religious things is that
    it's contrary to the law.

    Message: 62058
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: sysop/panama
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 20:38:06

    re:murder americans I think Bush blew it when he lost his nerve when the
    coup attempt was in the balance. For a small amount of effort, not 21
    american lives, Bush could have tipped the balance. Now, he has a fine
    mess on his hands. This is not going to be a very clean operation. Noriega
    will wage guerrilla war against the current gov't and even possibly against
    the canal. We had plenty of troops to protect the canal while Noriega was
    in the open, now... ??? I think Bush is bush, an incompetent, a wimp trying
    to act macho. Ever look at Skowcroft ? Doesn't he look like one of those
    Nazi war criminals, skulking around with that weak mouth and beady eyes.
    I don't trust him, I don't trust Bush, and I wish we had a real President
    who knew what he was doing and how to do it.

    Message: 62059
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: sysop/guns-sex
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 20:39:43

    Did you deliberately decide to miss my point. Loving guns is loving
    something that kills, loving porn is loving sex, and sex means life.
    What do you choose ?

    Message: 62060
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 23:30:26

            So, you judge people on how they look...  Interesting!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62061
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 12/22/89  Time: 23:48:46

            "Loving PORN is loving sex"  Is that what you think love is?

            I don't 'LOVE' guns...  besides, I have never seen a gun get up on
    its oun and kill anything.... there has always been a man attched to it!
    You missed my point... Guns can PROTECT and even save lives.  A gun is a
    TOOL.  Porn is garbage!  Porn is dirty sex.  Porn is degrading something
    that should be beautiful, but instead is perverted.
            I don't care if you hate guns... I don't care if you love porn and
    slobber all over your dirty little pictures.  Now you tell me why it bothers
    you that I don't "love" porn?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62062
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 01:45:57

    Re:  "you should read the book _Who Wrote the Bible?_ by Richard E.
    Friedman"

    Knowing you, I don't think I want to.  I suspect Friedman is going to tell
    me all sorts of things about the Bible that would discredit its veracity.
    Tell you what.  I'll read Friedman's book if you will read Josh MaDowell's
    book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict.  What say you?

    Message: 62063
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 01:49:44

    Re:  "It obviously wasn't referring to the
    Bible, since it didn't exist yet."

    In God's mind, the Bible existed in its entirety before the world was
    created.  He intended it to be a complete book in man's time.  I mean if God
    is God, why would that be so difficult?  You often try to limit God by man's
    limitations.

    Message: 62064
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 01:53:38

    Re:  "I mind paying taxes for a Santa Claus scene."

    Probably no more than I mind paying taxes to support the ACLU and a number
    of other things I disagree with.  Our infamous Dennis wanted to give 15
    million to China for birth control.  What a joke!

    Message: 62065
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 01:55:42

    Re:  "Ever look at Skowcroft ? Doesn't he look like one of those
    Nazi war criminals, skulking around with that weak mouth and beady eyes."

    Your criteria for judging character overwhelms me.  And how good looking are
    you Roger?

    Message: 62066
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 01:57:53

    Re:  "loving porn is loving sex, and sex means life"

    Your concept of life also overwhelms me.  Oops, I'm not suppose to talk on
    this subject.  Forget I said that Roger.

    Message: 62067
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mr. Carter
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 02:05:06

    Your last message was truly pornographic.

    Message: 62068
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 02:09:12

    Unless the Soviets begin supplying the PDF and the "dignity brigades," I
    seriously doubt we have much to worry about.

    Message: 62069
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 02:48:13

    I have Josh McDowell's book, _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_.  I guess I
    must be blind, but I find his arguments poor.  It should be called _A
    Verdict That Demands Evidence_.

    You really wouldn't mind if your tax money went to put a big lighted Jewish
    star on top of the Valley Bank Building in downtown Phoenix?  OK.  Then
    would it also be OK if the city paid for a big colorfully-lit pentagram on
    top of the Hyatt's Compass Room?  [A Pagan symbol if there is one point
    going up, a Satanic symbol if there are two points going up.]

    You didn't touch a nerve, I was just looking for an excuse to call you a
    weenie.  Merry Christmas, ya weenie.

    Message: 62070
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: OOPS
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 02:51:56

         OK, Cliff, not EVERYBODY has Santa Claus as part of their Christmas
    celebration.
         Wha?  You don't believe in Santa?  Well!  Too bad you are blind to the
    truth!
         What's this about cry baby heathens?  I'm no cry baby heathen!  I'm
    NOT, I'm NOT, I'm NOT!

    Message: 62071
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 03:01:35

         Interesting message.  A bit hard to read.  I think I need to get out my
    Mike Carter to English Dictionary.

    "Gimme" --> "give me"
    "screwup" --> "screw up"
    "bodily dammage" --> "bodily damage"
    "it's good benefits" --> "its good benefits"
    "$hit" --> "shit"
    "lemmon marangue" --> "lemon meringue"
    "assinine" --> "asinine"
    "mastubatory" --> "masturbatory"
    "It'd be like me saying; Let's..." --> "It'd be like me saying:  Let's..."
    "...never expect me, any other rational person..." --> "...never expect me,
    or any rational person..."
    "It hold some truth" --> "It holds some truth"
    "...and Garbage 'education'." --> "...and garbage 'education.'"  (Enclose
    punctuation marks within quotation marks.)

    Message: 62072
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: More Mike Carter
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 03:04:20

    RE:  "Anyone who hallucinates how guns are designed to kill by themselves is
    indeed brain dead."
         It's impossible for someone who is brain dead to hallucinate.

    RE:  "Don't expect me...to swallow your pathetically weak line of it's good
    benefits and *purpose*."
         Huh?  Please direct me to the message where I was discussing this.

    RE:  "Go stuff your stocking full of porn and feed it to your kids..."
         I don't have kids.

    RE:  "Just *DON't* expect MY kids to be fed that assinine brand of
    self-righteous mastubatory gratification in the name of clean sex."
         You have kids?

    RE:  "Please tell me HOW...a gun can pick itself up and ker-blooey all by
    itself."
         You mean a gun can't do that?  Damn, there goes my whole argument.

    RE:  "It'd be like me saying; Let's outlaw CARS..."
         Who's talking about outlawing anything?  I don't think any of us have
    made an argument for making guns illegal.  At least I haven't.  All I was
    saying is that there isn't much difference between "tool of destruction" and
    "designed to kill or harm."  Both descriptions are accurate.  So there.

    Message: 62073
    Author: Bill Jones
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Info
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 09:45:36

    I jusr dounloaded a prog with a *.zip. How do I get this to run on my
    XT.
    HELP
    Bill J.

    Message: 62074
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last on Bill
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 10:12:27

            I will give you a call Bill.....
            For the rest of you....download PKZ101.EXE, that will UN-ZIP your
    ZIP files.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62075
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak on spelling
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 10:15:43

            Zak, on the PUBLIC board we do not spell $#!+ the way you spelled
    it.  If it were not so close to Christmas and the fact you find the Zone
    fun, that is where I would put you for a week.  As an old user of Apollo,
    you should know it is $#!+ and has always been so.   Even Mikes $hit was
    borderline....but as a mere mortal, he is Zone proof!

    Merry Christmas Zak....  and quit pushing to make the public board a porn
    board.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62076
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 10:34:39

    Wow, see Bob go blindly through life: "I probably wouldn't want to, because
    it will destroy the veracity of the Bible" or some similar sentence.  Sounds
    just like the argument you used against reading the info on Christopher
    Columbus that *all scholars* know, but isn't widely disseminated (is that a
    dirty word?)

    Message: 62077
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T.
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 10:57:46

    Deal.  I've already read McDowell's _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_, _More
    Evidence that Demands a Verdict_, _Reasons Skeptics Should Consider
    Christianity_, _Answers to Tough Questions_, and _The Resurrection Factor_.
       Friedman is a professor of biblical history and archaeology at UCSD, and
    his book reads almost like a mystery novel.  He identifies actual historical
    persons who wrote various parts of the Bible.  It's a fascinating and
    interesting book.

    Message: 62078
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bible
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 10:59:26

    Which Bible?  There are different canons accepted by different sects (e.g.,
    Protestants vs. Catholic vs. 1st Century Marcionites, etc.)

    Message: 62079
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/answer
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 11:16:01

    AND why shouldn't "other troops" get involved to protect the American Zone
    and American lives AND the Panama Canal?? It is for their benefit also! The
    Canal is something the entire world uses, not just us.

    Re: "Running away" ..... the words should be "Fleeing for their lives"!
    Before we sent the military in, they should have been evacuated - perhaps
    weeks ago. If it was me and my family, I certainly would need no one to tell
    me to get out of there!

    From what I understand, many nations were told of our plans and agreed 100%
    --- verbally! Why have they not started sending their troops in to help us?
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62080
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 12:12:25

            What a thick head... it is US territory....  Why should they send in
    troops to lose lives protecting U.S. territory?  They PAY to use the Canal,
    so it is not like they will lose a free service.
            Yes Ann...FLEE is the answer.. instead of sending in troops who are
    paid to do such things, we should instead flee leaving the canal to a
    mad-man.  I praise the lord that you are not running this country...or there
    would be nothing left!
            Ann....  we do not need the help...  when you have too many
    different troops from other nations, there are communication and
    identification problems.  MORE people would be needlessly killed with the
    added confusion.

            We agreed with England durring the Falkland Islands War, but we did
    not send in our troops.  I would have been upset had we.... As England was
    powerful enough to handle that problem as we are able to handle the Canal
    Zone 'WITHOUT OUTSIDE HELP'....

            Why don't you FLEE from your swimming pool before it might hurt
    someone?   Why don't you give up driving your car...  More people are killed
    everyday in auto accidents then will probably be killed in that small war.
    More people die from Smoking as well...  Flee Ann... flee from your pack of
    cigarettes!

    Message: 62081
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 15:48:09

    So I'm a weenie huh?

    Your comparison of a pentagram to a Star of David doesn't cut it.  The Star
    of David is a representative of God through the Hebrew people.  I find that
    to be a good and worthy display, but the pentagram is supposed to represent
    the evil of Satan.  Quite a difference there.  I do not mind when tax
    dollars are used for good.  I do mind when they are used for evil.

    Have a Happy New Year!

    So I'm a weenie huh?  Sulk, sulk.

    Message: 62082
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 15:49:20

    Re:  "I'm no cry baby heathen!"

    Well, maybe you're not really a heathen.

    Message: 62083
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 15:53:11

    Re:  "If it were not so close to Christmas and the fact you find the Zone
    fun, that is where I would put you for a week."

    Ah, come on Cliff!  Right is right.  Lets have some justice here.  Go ahead
    and put Zak in the "Zone"!  Ha!  Ha!  Zak!  :-)

    Message: 62084
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 15:57:40

    Re:  "I probably wouldn't want to, because it will destroy the veracity of
    the Bible"

    Huh?  What are you talking about?  I'm blind?  What kind of blindness are
    you talking about?  I remember reading something about blindness once.
    Let's see, where was that?  Oh yes!  I remember now!

    2 Cor 4:4  The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that
    they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the
    image of God.

    Message: 62085
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 16:05:22

    Re:  "He identifies actual historical
    persons who wrote various parts of the Bible."

    Now I wonder how he was able to identify people who wrote the Bible.  It
    must have been a real difficult job seeing a lot of the books of the Bible
    have the author's name in them.  Or maybe Jean Dixson told him?  How old did
    you say he was?  Maybe he asked some of the writers personally?

    So you already read McDowell's books?  Pretty good huh?  Did you notice that
    he has been much more ssuccessful in his book writing than you have been?  I
    wonder why that is?  Maybe your distribution will improve as time goes on,
    but I wouldn't count on it.

    Have a Very Merry Christmas Jim!

    Message: 62086
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 16:09:26

    Re:  "There are different canons accepted by different sects (e.g.,
    Protestants vs. Catholic vs."

    Come on Jim.  You know the answer to that.  There is only one Bible.  But
    there are many different translations.  Most of them say the same thing.
    Just worded a little differently.  And the Apocrypha?  The Jews never
    accepted it.  And they are God's chosen people.  They should know.

    Message: 62087
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T.
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 16:35:29

    Well Bo, perhaps if you would read the book in question instead of
    prejudging it, you would see for yourself.  The fact is that there is
    archaeological evidence to support his claims (e.g., a scribe's seal
    recently discovered which belonged to the scribe of Jeremiah).
       McDowell's books are pretty lousy.  Those who concur with my opinion
    include Christian philosopher William Lane Craig (who presently works for
    the same organization as McDowell, Campus Crusade for Christ).  Craig's
    apologetic work, on the other hand, is among the best to be found in
    evangelical Christianity today (e.g., _Apologetics: An Introduction_,
    _Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom_).  If you find McDowell to be
    convincing, then you haven't done enough research.
       If circulation quantity was a measure of accuracy, then we should all be
    reading the Weekly World News for the truth about the news of the day.

    Why is it that you're being so ad hominem so close to Christmas, Bob?

    Message: 62088
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 16:37:39

    The Catholic Bible contains different books than the Protestant Bible.  And
    if your criterion for what makes the REAL Bible is whatever the Jews accept,
    then you obviously reject the New Testament.  After all, as you just said,
    the Jews are God's chosen people and they should know.  Right, Bob?

       Just curious, have you ever read any books about early Christian history
    and the formation of Christian traditions?  (e.g., Paul Johnson's _History
    of Christianity_)?  If not, I recommend that you do so.

    Message: 62089
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: circulation
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 16:46:34

    Oh, and by the way, Bob, my circulation *has* been improving with
    time.  See my article, "An Examination of the Research of Creationist Walter
    Brown" in the Fall 1989 (vol. 9, no. 1) issue of the journal
    Creation/Evolution, pp. 23-35.  It's available in university libraries
    nationwide.

    Message: 62090
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bashas' Closing
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 17:12:08

            The Bashas' store at 3522 West Bell Road is CLOSING permanently
    Saturday night, Dec. 30th.   From Dec 24th to December 30th, it will be 20%
    off everything (except, Meat, Produce, Liquor and tobacco products)
            We shopped there today and got 15% off and the store is still well
    stocked.  We are going again tomorrow to stock up on some S&W can goods...

            This is the only Bashas' store shutting down that we know of.
    Cutting corners for the big 'Grocery Wars' I suppose.

    Example: Sale price on S&W French Style Green Beans 5 for $2.00 less
    20% = $1.60 (saving another 40 cents)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62091
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 19:33:42

    I'm trying to turn the public board into a porn board because I'm arguing
    over whether or not it should be legal?  That's logical.

    Hmmm...Christmas in the Zone...cool.

    Message: 62092
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Thornburg/62085
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 19:36:16

         That's a nice Christian attitude you've got there, Bob.

    Message: 62093
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak..
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 19:45:07

            You can argue all you want, just keep your profane words off the
    PUBlic board.  Remember, I decide what is profane here...not you!
            You can take this to the COS SIG and have at it all you want, if you
    feel you need to use profanity to get your points across.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62094
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Zak/62092
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 19:51:19

            And you think your heathen attitude is better?

    Merry CHRISTmas Zakko!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62095
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 21:14:56

    Yeah, that's right, ignore my point and attack *me* with Scripture.  I
    didn't know the blind could be blindered.

    Message: 62096
    Author: Lawrence Wilson
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Is Bible Myth ??
    Date: 12/23/89  Time: 22:11:46

    Can anyone find Jesus or the 12 Apostles in any Book other than
    the Bible ?????????? Their were many historians around at that
    time. Why did they not write about so wonderous a person(GOd) ??

    Message: 62097
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 00:35:03

    The answer is no, at least regarding other first century documents.
    (Some will cite Josephus' _Antiquities of the Jews_ as a late 1st century
    document attesting to the existence of Jesus, but the two references to
    Jesus in that work are widely regarded as forgeries even by evangelical
    Christian scholars (e.g., R. France).)

    Message: 62098
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Virgin Mary contact
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 01:10:39

    I now have in my possession a "rose petal blessed by Jesus and Mary for
    cures and conversions."  It says so right on the label.  You too can obtain
    one, at no charge, from the Our Lady of the Roses cult in Bayside, NY, by
    calling 1-800-232-MARY and leaving an appropriate address on the answering
    machine.  The cult was started by Brooklyn housewife Veronica Leuken, who
    first "experienced a perfume of roses" the day of Robert F. Kennedy's
    assassination.  Shortly thereafter, Mrs. Leuken was appeared to by St.
    Theresa ("The Little Flower") and since 1970 she has been regularly having
    visions of the Virgin Mary (who, by the way, is pissed off--a booklet you
    will receive will give you the details).  Regular vigils are held at the
    Vatican Pavilion in Flushing Meadows Park near NYC.  Things are pretty
    high-tech there now:  "A system of lights signals is used at the Vigils to
    help those attending to more closely participate in the Vigil.  Our Lady's
    arrival and presence on the grounds is indicated by a blue light mounted on
    the excedra; for Our Lord a red light is used.  Three successive flashes
    indicates Our Lady's blessing while red indicates Our Lord's."
        Blue light special on aisle three--blessings from the Virgin Mary, for
    the next 10 minutes.

    Message: 62099
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Christopher Columbus
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 01:38:56

    I seem to recall a discussion regarding his "discovery" of America.  Here is
    an excerpt from "Myth Information" :

    "In the first place, Columbus never even saw the North American continent.
    During his four expeditions to the New World, all of his explorations were
    to islands in the Caribbean or to South America.  His celebrated "discovery"
    of America was actually of a small island near San Salvador.  Also, to the
    day of his death in 1506, Columbus refused to take credit for the discovery
    of a new continent.  Columbus persisted in his belief that he had reached
    his intended destination of India.
    The first Europeans to actually arrive in North America were Norwegian
    Vikings, probably Leif Eriksson, around A.D. 1000.  The first sixteenth
    century explorer to set foot on what is now the United States was Juan Ponce
    de Leon in 1513.
    Contrary to popular belief, the first land sighting in the New World was not
    made by Columbus himself.  It was actually a crewman aboard the Nina,
    Roderigo de Triana, who first saw land.  Columbus later took credit for the
    sighting in his journal.
    . . . It is now known that Columbus never used the name Christopher
    Columbus.  The name Columbus is actually an English equivalent of his
    original Italian name, Cristoforo Colombo.  However, he never wrote in
    Italian and, so far as is known, all surviving writings of Columbus are in
    Castilian.  In this form of Spanish, he used the name Cristobal Colon, and
    was refered to in this manner during his lifetime."

    Message: 62100
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Center of the Earth
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 01:45:38

    Also from "Myth Information" :

    It is a fallacy that the center of the Earth is molten rock.  The inner core
    of the Earth, with a diameter of about 1600 miles, is actually a dense
    region of solid, magnetic, and probably iron metallic rocklike material.
    This solidified core is surrounded by an outer layer of molten iron about
    2300 miles thick.  Thus, although there is molten rock inside the Earth, it
    is not located at the Earth's center.
    The solid, inner core of the Earth is actually about 2000 F. hotter than is
    the molten material surrounding it.  The enormous pressure at the center of
    the Earth of over fifty-million pounds per square inch prevents the core
    from liquifying despite its higher temperature.  However, even though the
    center is solid, its temperature is about the same as that of the surface of
    the sun.

    Message: 62101
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Guitar Shop
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 01:53:02

    Any coincidence between my pseudonym and the name of the famous guitarist is
    purely accidental, as I had never even heard of Jeff Beck when I started
    using it, and indeed, imagined that I had invented it.
    I put forth this disclaimer because, having heard "Guitar Shop" (my first
    exposure to Jeff Beck), I wouldn't want anyone to think I was a fan.  A
    truly miserable album, the guitar work is slow, unimaginative, repetitive,
    and more reminiscent of an uninspired George Thorogood (with a bad case of
    jet lag) than anything else.  I sold it to someone on the street for three
    dollars.

    Message: 62102
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/62094
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 01:57:46

    Yes.

    Happy HanNUKAH Mr. Kolostow!

    Message: 62103
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff/Panama
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 06:40:16

    Re: "We do not need help from other countries, etc." ----- you tell that to
    the families of our troops that are getting killed and hurt over there! I
    still say that if all these other countries are in so much agreement in this
    thing - then let them put their life on the line also.

    In the paper this morning it said that the U.S. installed president,
    Guillermo Endaro said "that the invasion was a kick in the head! It was not
    the best thing I would have thought. I would have been happier without an
    intervention." He also went on to say "The 'gringo's' have their defects,
    but I am used to them!" How's that for appreciation? It's nice and
    comforting to know that those guys that died are thought of
    as nothing more than a gringo!

    Re: fleeing --- I assume then that you would have chose to stay, and putting
    your family in high jeopardy all for the sake of pride? I agree that it is
    an American Zone - but when one's life is at stake, so what?
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62104
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Zak
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 06:42:08

    If Zak only calls you a weenie - feel good about that. He's called me worse
    things! I can't even repeat them on the BB. *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62105
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on store close
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 06:47:47

    I think this is a omen sign. Smith's and Albertson's are gonna take over.
    Right now, I do not know of a place that you can beat Smith's competitive
    prices. I love saving the money, but somehow, have a bit of an un-easy
    feeling when another big conglomerate (sp?) takes over. What's going to
    happen to the small businessman in the future? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62106
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Zak
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 06:49:42

    Zak was profane on the BB? Gads, I must have missed it. What did he say? I
    must have been half asleep to have missed somehing like that. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62107
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bashas
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 09:12:08

            I was wrong about the 20% off, instead it is 25% off....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62108
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 09:21:07

            Ann... you are wrong about the troops over there....  They hate
    Americans like you who don't stand behind them and support them.  I was in
    the military durring Nam, and we hated cowards like Jane Fonda that thought
    we should run!  I am NOT kidding!  I would stay and fight as well as Sandy
    and the boys....
            If you are so afraid of death...why do you smoke?  It is a worse
    death then being shot.
            How many THOUSANDS of troops do we have over there?  How many have
    been killed?  How many people will die over this holiday season because of
    DRUNK driving here at home in the states?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  I am PROUD of our boys over in Panama....

    Message: 62109
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: Wow
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 14:34:35

    I have now logged in 900 times.

    Message: 62110
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Merry Christmas
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 15:23:34

            Merry Christmas all you Christian BBS users.

            Merry Santamas Zak and all you heathens...  just joking but I do
    wish EVERYONE a Joyful Holiday Season!

            One of the best gifts is to have many friends who care.....
    I care and respect you all!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62111
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: guns
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 17:55:51

    It seems clear that access to guns (whether legal access or illegal access)
    is not a sufficient condition for their abuse.
    Gun control groups are always contrasting the low rate of firearms death in
    England, which has some of the most extreme firearms restrictions extant,
    and the alarmingly highly rate of firearms death in the U.S., which has
    fairly simple access to most firearms (with the exception of fully automatic
    rifles).  But what about other countries?
    Take Switzerland.  The whole country is an army.  They have a program of
    universal military conscription for all men between the ages of twenty and
    fifty.  Participation requires active duty, frequent inactive training, and
    reserve duty for twelve years.  There is also a large, well-trained women's
    auxilliary force.
    Switzerland has developed extensive mobilization plans and defensive
    strategies to destroy every tunnel, bridge and pass leading into the
    country.  Its national militia is supported by highly mobile, well-equipped
    armored units.
    Switzerland is the only country in the world where military personnel
    (almost all adult men between twenty and fifty) can take home their
    equipment and ammunition when not on duty (including machine guns, etc.)
    Switzerland has a standing army of 580,000 men on 48 hour mobilization,
    compared with France's 320,000 and Britain's 167,000.  Switzerland has an
    air force containing 377 combat aircraft, while France has 460 and Canada
    has 247.

    In 1979, there were 34 handgun deaths in Switzerland, compared with eight in
    England, and 10,728 in the U.S.

    If easy access to firearms were sufficient cause for their abuse, we would
    expect to find a bloodbath in Switzerland.  None exists.  What then, is the
    difference?  A qualitative difference between the people in the U.S. and the
    people of Switzerland?  A different judicial structure?  I don't know.  But
    clearly, it has nothing to do with the availability of firearms.

    As a side note, during the Vietnam war years of 1963 to 1973, there were
    46,752 battle deaths reported.  During the same time, there were 84,633
    Americans killed by firearms in America.

    Message: 62113
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Bashas
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 19:05:00

      Wow! I didn't even know Smith and Wesson made canned goods. You learn
    something every day.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 62114
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/Panama
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 19:10:43

      When you discuss asking other nations for assistance in handling the
    invasion of Panama you should consider that Panama is about the size of West
    Virginia and has the same population as the San Diego area. If we have to
    ask for help there we might as well sell our navy for scrap and stay home.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 62115
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Colombus
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 19:19:57

      The 'Chronicle of America', which is put out by the same people as the
    well known 'Chronicle of the 20th Century', tells of Colombus not knowing
    where he was; not finding the mainland; being brutal to the natives as
    practically all 16th century explorers were; and being taken back to Europe
    in chains after his fourth voyage. It also notes that while the indians were
    soon decimated by brutality and new diseases, Europe experienced a
    tremendous wave of new venereal diseases when the explorers returned from
    the new world. The indians did get some measure of revenge, although not by
    design.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 62116
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean on S&W
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 20:23:38

            Ha ha ha ha... I was talking about S&W Fine Foods Inc.
    of San Ramon C.A.
            By the way, we made THREE trips to Bashas' and loaded up on all the
    sale items plus the extra 25% off...  Made Smiths (Att Ann) look EXPENSIVE.

            They are about out of the good canned goods.....  too late you guys!
    We cleaned them out on some brands...ha ha ha ha
                            Anyone hungry?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62117
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/help for Panama
    Date: 12/24/89  Time: 22:38:21

    Actually, the January issue of _The American Spectator_ (which recently came
    out) has an article about the Panama situation (post-October-coup attempt)
    in which the author suggests that the best thing we could do, if we decided
    to intervene militarily, would be to get help from other countries. This is
    *not* because we can't handle it ourselves, but because it looks bad to the
    world if we play policeman all by our lonesome.

    The American Spectator is a pretty right-wing rag, by the way.  Not quite so
    kooky as to invoke Rothschild-Rockefeller-Bavarian Illuminate-Council on
    Foreign relations conspiracy theories, though.  In fact, one article this
    month bashes those types (both left-wing and right-wing).

    Message: 62118
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Santa Claus...
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 00:56:50

    (By the Way...Merry Christmas Everyone!)
    Santa sat in a somewhat overpowering posture as he dwarfed the
    creaking wooden stool in front of me. Sack, soiled and soggy
    lay in an unceremonious heap on the floor amid twigs, chimeny soot
    and a few bullet ridden packages.
    "What's with the designer packages?"
    -"Oh, rudolph insisted we ride the arctic breeze into Panama. Only
      the troops thought Santa Claus was a code-name for Snow man and
      a half dozen bounty hunters started a blitz krieg with mortars
      anti-tank weapons and tracers..."
    "Good grief. Did you get hurt?"
    -"Thank God no we didn't, they chased us out of the area with some
      Bell 500 gunships. It had to have rained reindeer poop for seventy
      miles."
    Santa shifted his awesome weight a little, the stool eeked out a prompt
    contest. Santa stared contemplatively at the picture of Dan Quayle on
    the restaraunt wall.
    -"You know that guy told me that he thought Roe-vs-Wade was the
      descision Washington had to make when he crossed the Pontomac?" (sp)
    "No.."
    -"Yeah, and when I asked him if he wanted an educational Plumb-bob to
      straighten out his history, he said "My names Dan, and I'd preferr
     an apple.."
    "So..a busy night, eh Santa?"
    -"No,, I quit."
    "You QUIT?"
    -"Yeah, after all the work I do all year, the presents I make and
      reciting my Ho-ho's...these bozo's keep sending F-14's to
      intercept me over Alaska. The kids in L.A. shoot at me cussing
      somthing about CRIPS and BLOODS and I'm in the "wrong neighborhood
      holmes.."
    "Uh, Santa.."
    -"Don't even try to change my mind, sonny. I've had enough!
      Last year some guy stood on his roof all night waiting for me.."
    "Really? that's inspiring..was he a dedicated fan?"
    -"Are you kiddin? He stood there just as I was about to touch down
      and pointed a shotgun at me and said "Make my day, punk."
      ..when I asked him what was wrong, he started shooting."
    "And..."
    -"SO I left."
    "Well, y're welcome at my place."
    -"No way. Uh uhhh. You got all those ham radio antennas right? Yea,
      I know you do.. no way. Not after last time. I spent 2 hours untangling
      myself and the sleigh from your 160 meter dipole array. Forget it."
    "SO YOU'RE THE %$@&#* who WRECKED MY ANTENNA...HEY WAITER...BRING ME
     MY UZI..NOW!"
    -"You'll have to wait in line sonny... the IRS is waiting for me outside
     and it doesn't look good."

    Message: 62120
    Author: Manuel Noriega
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hello everybody!
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 02:28:19

    Merry Christmas!  And a happy neUGH!

    Message: 62121
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 03:17:20

    The new President of Panama also said that, should Noriega be evicted by the
    Vatican and be taken into custody by the Panamanians, he would not extradite
    him to America. How amusing --- he was not able to take power because of
    Noriega, we invade and oust Noriega, we install him as rightful President,
    and he nearly immediately  announces that, if they can get their hands on
    him, Noriega is _theirs_.

    Message: 62122
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Panama/last
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 05:13:45

            Now if we had a criminal that did a major crime in this country, I
    would not want to extradite that person to another country either.  I see
    nothing wrong with that at all, even though I would have liked to see us get
    him.

            By the way, did you know that Panama Citizens can serve in U.S.
    Armed Forces.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62123
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Merry Christmas!
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 06:24:02

    And God bless us, every one!

    Message: 62125
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Panama
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 09:51:08

    Where do you get the idea I don't support our troops? I wanted them to have
    help so that less of them would die!
    No - I would not stand and fight - not for that country - not for that
    canal! I would stand and fight if this country was invaded or if someone
    threated me and my family. Life is too precious to lose it because someone
    is playing war games!
    What has smoking and drunk driving got to do with Panama? Lets keep this in
    context. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62126
    Author: $ Shirley Bear
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: MIKE
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 10:57:30

    Merry Christmas Mike.  I just wanted to tell you I like your
    Dinner with Santa.  It is very good.

    Catch ya later.
                                  **** Shirley ****

    Message: 62127
    Author: $ Shirley Bear
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 11:01:10

    "Hi" Paul,
         Merry Christmas to you and yours.

                                   **** Shirley ****

    Message: 62128
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: PORN GOD
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 15:32:44

     Zak, you can find a copy of the Meese Commission Report on Pornography at
    the Glendale (and probably most any) Library.

    I didn't know the pentagram was an inherently evil symbol representing
    Satanism.  If it wasn't for Christianity, we wouldn't need Satanism.  Can't
    have one without the other, it doesn't work that way.  Is the swastika an
    inherently evil symbol just because the Nazis used it for 20 or so years?

    Someone sarcastically suggested "cars be outlawed because they pollute the
    air".  That isn't a bad idea, actually.  If we start phasing them out now we
    might have a slim chance to turn the destruction of our environment
    around.

    Message: 62129
    Author: Cindy Matthews
    Category: Question?
    Subject: status
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 16:08:20

    Does this board have any role-playing games?  If it doesn't I might like to
    join.  There are some intersting conversations here.
    Can anyone reccommend other good boards?  I am new to this city.  Thank you.

    Message: 62130
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Role-playing games
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 17:58:30

    This board has no RPGs as you would expect.  Occasionally, however, one user
    will imitate (take on the role) of another user, either in a "My Dinner
    With..." series or as a faked-up version of the other user's name.