### Apollo BBS Archive - August 12, 1990

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 20:22:17

            Ah, that's great! Victor Hugo, of all people, to quote against the
    church.  Karl Marx, maybe, or Lenin, or Idi Amin, perhaps, but Victor Hugo
    is almost classic! I think that last paragraph says nothing. It would be
    like Pope John Paul saying he is Polish. The response is, "so what?" And
    Victor Hugo didn't like the church--same response.
            Let's look at that last graph, okay? "Every step which intelligence
    has made in Europe from the edge of darkness has been in spite of the
    church." Aside from being a clumsy structure, even in French, it implies
    that the intelligent steps made in Europe from the "edge of darkness" let's
    call that 800 a.d., ok? have been made by non-christians.
            I submit that had it not been for Christians, Europe would have no
    alphabet, no mathematics, no libraries, no reservoir of culture.
            And that REALLY sums it up. Don't you think?
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Edit command:L1

     1:        When you answer correctly Jeff Beck's last several posts wherein he
     2:asked some important and pertinent questions then I will go on from there.
     3:
     4:       You are bringing up non-issues here.  I or Jeff ask a pertinent
     5:question and you respond with what is called Gobbledegook just like the
     6:religions that teach out-dated, out-moded nonsense.  It is ridiculous to try
     7:to even respond to your messages.  You won't answer the questions or you
     8:won't think about the real issues.
     9:
    10:Why would anyone want to promote the belief that unless someone believes in
    11:the son of a certain person that they, in some way, will be chastised?
    12:
    13:This does not compute.  This sounds like the type of thing an evil entity
    14:would come up with.  Sounds suspiciously like an maligned human thought it
    15:up but who else would've?
    16:
    17:The entire idea of organized religion is ridiculous.  What?  Does someone
    18:have to satisify the urge of some people to be treated like sheep?
    19:
    20:What do you believe as your form of religion or non_religion.   You did
    21:mention you thought that when bad people died they had to be apart from the
    22:one who created them.  Was this punishment for all eternity or is there
    23:time limits on the entire thing?  What are you views and please think on
    24:what Jeff Beck said in his past few posts of early yesterday morning.  Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 68561
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 02:55:11

    As was pointed out by another, your assertions regarding the affect of
    oxygenated fuels on mileage (and so forth) are baseless.
    As I pointed out, despite your crude attempts at sophistry, auto emissions
    are a major source of pollution in this country; I don't know which is
    worse, industrial pollution or auto pollution, but there is no question that
    both belong to the top three offenders.  That oxygenated fuels reduced total
    auto pollution by twenty to fifty percent is a testament to the efficacy and
    enormous practical benifit of the program.  Your transparent attempts to
    contest this grow more wearisome with each passing day.

    I realize that you must practice your skills if you are to successfully
    prostitute yourself before Big Capital, but in the words of W.C. Fields, get
    away son; you bother me.

    Message: 68562
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on Rod
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 03:01:50

    Hear that Rod; you are a tiny insect before the eyes of God -- an
    insignificant nothing.  Yet, he is so desirous of your attention and respect
    that he will threaten you with eternal torment in his attempt to gain your
    humble notice.
    You'd better listen to Daryl; God isn't possesed of infinite patience, ya
    know. He can stand so much and then he can't stands no more.  No, the all
    merciful is tapping his foot, at the very same time that he pretends not to
    notice you, and one day, his inexhaustible mercy will be exhausted.  That
    may seem paradoxical, but ours is not to question the wisdom of Daryl, er,
    God.

    Message: 68563
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Acquinas' God
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 03:04:36

    No, Acquinas promoted a selfish and depraved God, as I just demonstrated.

    Message: 68564
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C./God
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 03:10:59

    Of course he permits his creations to suffer.  You claim that man is the
    creation of God.  Men suffer.  Therefore, God permits his creations to
    suffer.  He created imperfect beings.  He created conditions which permit
    suffering.
    There is no reason for disease and natural disaster; microbes and
    earthquakes have no free will to exercise.
    There is no reason to create beings with the capacity for evil; God lacks
    the capacity for evil, and yet has free will.  Therefore, it is not
    necessary to create beings with the capacity for evil in order to create
    beings with free will.
    If the one *did* go hand in hand with the other, the only moral choice would
    be not to create any beings.

    Message: 68565
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 68553
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 03:16:38

    Very humorous.  But as you well know, since auto pollution is a major
    contributor to pollution, a significant reduction in auto pollution is a
    significant reduction in total pollution.  I would class a total twenty to
    fifty percent reduction in auto pollution as significant.  Therefore,
    oxygenated fuels reduced total pollution not by "a barely measurable
    amount," but by a significant amount, in proportion to the scale on which
    the program was implimented, and the time over which it was implimented.

    True, you are ignoring my counter-arguments, both on this subject and on the
    subject of religion, but do not imagine for one moment that the deliberate
    nature of this act escapes me.  I respond because it amuses me to frustrate
    you, you who imagine that in your obstinacy and equivocation, you frustrate
    me.

    Message: 68566
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Religion
    Subject: gods
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 03:35:51

    I have always wondered; if God is omnipotent, why did he not create a bunch
    of beings like himself?  I mean, why doesn't he want the company of his
    peers?  Or is he so enamoured of being peerless?
    I know that if I was an incredibly advanced being, never mind omnipotent, I
    shouldn't want to waste my time in the company of a bunch of nose-picking
    hairless apes, who half the time respond to my divine qualities like swine
    trampling pearls.
    Perhaps God would rather be a big fish in a small pond.

    Message: 68567
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Me / Chaos
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 04:34:23

    Huh?

    Message: 68568
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: a parable (1 of 3)
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 04:36:27

    "The land of the Multitudians is famous for its inhabitants, who are
    distinguished by the fact that they are multitudinous.  One day, Trurl the
    constructor, passing through the saffron regions of the constellation
    Deliria, strayed a little from the main path and caught sight of a planet
    that appeared to writhe.  Drawing nearer, he saw that this was due to the
    multitudes that covered its surface; he landed, having found -- not without
    difficulty -- a few square feet of relatively unoccupied ground.  The
    natives immediately ran up and thronged about him, exclaiming how
    multitudinous they were, although, as they all talked at once, Trurl
    couldn't make out a single word.  When finally he understood, he asked:
    "Multitudinous, are you?"
    "We are!!" they shouted, bursting with pride.  "We are innumerable."
    And others cried:
    "We are like fish in the sea!"
    "Like pebbles on the beach!"
    "Like stars in the sky!  Like atoms!!"
    "Supposing you are," returned Trurl.  "What of it?  Do you spend all day
    counting yourselves, and does that give you pleasure?"
    "Know, O unenlightened alien," was their reply, "that when we stamp our
    feet, the very mountains tremble, and when we huff and puff, it is a
    hurricane that sends trees flying, and when we all sit down together, there
    is hardly room enough to breathe!!"

    "But why should mountains tremble and hurricanes send trees flying, and why
    should there be hardly room to breathe?" asked Trurl.  "Is it not better
    when mountains stay at rest, and there are no hurricanes, and everyone has
    room enough to breathe?"
    The multitudians were highly offended by this lack of respect shown to
    their mighty numbers and their numerical might, so they stamped, huffed and
    puffed, and sat down to demonstrate their multitudinality and show just
    what it meant.  Earthquakes toppled half the trees, crushing seven hundred
    thousand persons, and hurricanes leveled the rest, causing the demise of
    seven hundred thousand more, while those who remained had hardly room
    enough to breathe.
    "Good heavens!" cried Trurl, packed in among the sitting natives like a
    brick in a brick wall.  "What a catastrophe!"
    Which insulted them even more.
    "O barbarous and benighted alien!" they said.  "What are a few hundred
    thousand to the Multitudians, whose myriads are countless?  A loss that
    goes unnoticed is no loss at all.  You have seen how powerful we are in
    our stamping, in our huffing and puffing, and in our sitting down.  Imagine
    then what would happen if we turned to bigger things!"

    "You mustn't think," said Trurl, "that your way of thinking is altogether
    new to me.  Indeed, it's well known that whatever comes in sufficiently
    large quantities commands the general admiration.  For example, a little
    stale gas circulating sluggishly at the bottom of an old barrel excites
    wonder in no one; but if you have enough of it to make a Galactic Nebula,
    everyone is instantly struck with awe.  Though really, it's the same stale
    and absolutely average gas -- only there's an awful lot of it."
    "We do not like what you say!" they shouted.  "We do not like to hear about
    this stale gas!"
    Trurl looked around for the police, but the crowd was too great for the
    police to push through..."

    Message: 68571
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 04:59:46

    You'd better watch it boy, you're liable to end up in hell like I will.

    EXCELLENT posts on religion.  They deserve to be framed.

    On pollution:  I really do not know but Mike Carter has some interesting
    figures on airplane polution and Pheonix is surrounded by airports.

    Message: 68572
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 05:03:20

    Daryl, I know that you are sincere in your beliefs.  That is obvious.  I
    guess I could feel ashamed of myself for poking fun at your religion but I
    just can't because I see these beliefs as a weight on the world.

    If people just made it a point to get along and help each other, realizing
    that we were all brother and sister then I would think that even if this
    god of yours did exist that it wouldn't matter that we didn't worship it.

    I would think that most importantly people getting along with people would
    take precedence.

    But if you or anyone else out there do not believe this then you are sicker
    than I previously thought.

    And by the way, this so-called Christian Nation led by a professed
    Christian President is about to go to war AGAIN and cause more killing of
    both American and the base camp of Christ's homeland people.

    Can't you just see your Jesus saying: "Kill them, nuke them."?  Gee,
    somehow I can't.  What about: "Turn the other cheek"?  Oh, it's not the
    second tuesday of the month, that explains it.  Well, what about: Love your
    enemies, do good to those who hate you"?  Oh, that was a bad interpretation
    and what He actually said was: "Let's rock n' roll".  I see and I suppose
    that it was the Great Satan who caused those, previously mentioned, biblical
    sayings to be inserted and they should be ignored.

    Well then what about, If you are angry in your heart with your brother then
    that very night you will be called upon to stand before God and explain.
    Oh, I see you have the King James Living Bible with helps, red edition.
    That explains it.

    I guess God likes war.
                                    Rod

    Message: 68574
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alarms
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 08:18:59

    I don't get it? You mean you put in an alarm system, if it goes off at the
    wrong time they fine you and tax you too whether it does or not????
    I thought putting one in was to protect your property instend of letting the
    police do it - which they don't do a very good job and that would save the
    city money and everyone is punished for it???? I think Rod is right - soon
    it WILL BE a toe tax!! Just as ridiculous. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68575
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on taxes
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 08:22:50

    Really liked your list of new taxes to Moffart. She's really missing the
    boat not getting money for all of that. Loved the rock tax the best! Ditto
    the computer pixel one too. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68576
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/landscaping
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 10:52:21

    Pardon me?  Desert landscaping isn't adding to the heat problem. Concrete,
    blacktops, and buildings (like what is replacing the desert landscaping down
    there at Sky Harbor...) are what contribute to the heat envelope, most
    especially the higher average low temperatures.  Pools and grass also add,
    by contributing moisture.  Turn this place back into completely desert
    landscaping and it would cool off.

    Message: 68577
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 11:39:20

            I wish people with 'lawns' would go back east and let this desert
    town revert back to a less humid place to live in like it was in the 60's.
            All the people with the lawns are binging in the crickets as well.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68578
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Jeff + Sandi
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 14:42:55

    Oh Jeff...
    It is always so obvious that when you try to put off a girl, i.e. " get
    away son; you bother me.", that you really fancy her.
    Sandi is obviously able to argue with you on your level and that disturbs
    you.  But it also intrigues you, doesn't it?  Well, you can't fool me.

    Sandi-  my deepest sympathies.

    Message: 68579
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 15:05:30

    Actually, I have no reason to assume the sex of "Sandi Marlin."  I know of
    no one who has seen this person, and quite frankly I suspect that the name
    is merely a pseudonym -- probably employed by another user.
    I assure you that my annoyance is genuine, however.
    But is does not follow from the fact that I am annoyed that I am annoyed
    because I feel challenged or threatened.  I am annoyed because the arguments
    are unsound and equivocal.

    Message: 68580
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: pollution stats
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 15:10:07

    I called the telephone reference section of the public library and they were
    kind enough to provide me with some statistics from the 1990 Statistical
    Abstract of the United States.  What follows is  short list of pollutants
    and the percentage of the total amount of each pollutant which motor
    vehicles contribute:

    carbon monoxide -- 66.3%
    sulfur oxides   --  4.4%
    volatile organic compounds -- 30.6%
    particulates    -- 20%
    nitrogen oxides -- 43.1%
    lead            -- 37%

    Message: 68581
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/photon
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 15:52:02

    a photon is a quanta. The quanta of light has a frequency associated
    with it. The energy of the packet is dependent upon the frequency. Thus,
    the higher the frequency the higher the energy, or the lower the frequency
    the lower in the energy. Thus a packet of light receding from the observer
    would seem to have lower energy.

    Message: 68582
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/infinite mass
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 15:53:21

    in the limit, however it is infinite. The asymptotic curve approaches
    c, and the mass increases exponentially.

    Message: 68583
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: pollution/LA
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 16:02:23

    Having just driven through LA back to Phoenix from my vacation in

    Carmel/Monterey calif, I would like to report that Phoenix has nothing
    to worry about when it comes to pollution compared to that lovely smog-laden
    valley called LA. In fact, LA is in the middle of a drought so bad that the
    trees and such are dying. Phoenix never looked better !

    Message: 68584
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: thoughts on history
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 16:07:17

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Nothing is ever the same.

    Message: 68585
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: Multitudinous Stuff
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 16:16:25

    Interesting parable.  So, what's the moral of the story?

    Message: 68586
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Which Jeff???
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 16:29:33

    Melissa, which Jeff.
    Darn this is getting confusing.

    Message: 68587
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 17:42:22

    I will not bother arguing this with you. You believe you are right, I know
    that I have justification. We will never agree.

    Message: 68588
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: me
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 17:50:56

    If you really doubt that I'm a separate person, call me anytime...I am
    female and I'm not an alterego of anyone else on this board.
    Secondly, I argue out of stark numerical facts. Not "Well, it looks browner
    than it used to" or "Gee, there's two times more people here than there used
    to be so there must be four times more pollution." I have seen the numbers
    and flat numbers do not lie. Furthermore, I have presented the very logical
    reason why pollution has in fact lessened in the intervening time. I admit
    that my opinions on oxygenated fuel have a lot more root in sitting in my
    driveway for ten minutes trying to get my usually reliable car to start on
    cold winter mornings, but everything I said about that numerically speaking
    is also true.
    I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I have trouble overlooking the truth
    simply because I want to believe that everything is getting worse...

    Message: 68589
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/Jeff
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 18:34:31

    Okay, I fess up, I am Sandi Marlin.  (he,he)

    Okay, I'm not but in any case Sandi should look at her choke and make sure
    it is operating correctly.  One winter I had the same problem and it was the
    choke.  Whatever.

    The smell of the MTBE gasoline is enough to make me puke and that's being
    kind.  When this stuff first came on the market and I was warned not to mix
    the two types, alcohol & MTBE, I made up a little saying that would allow me
    to keep them separate.  Mother Theresa Begs Eggs (MTBE) did the trick.

    Message: 68590
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Crickets/grass/Cliff
    Date: 08/12/90  Time: 18:36:45

    But I like their music.  The Crickets are great musicians although it was
    too bad that Buddy Holly died in that terrible plane crash with The Big
    Bopper and Richie Valens.