### Apollo BBS Archive - April 27, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6325
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/writing
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 05:36:09

     Spout off the top of your head? Not at all Cliff! I have enjoyed your posts
    a lot. The context and content of them just didn't sound like the Cliff we
    all know and love. Now I understand why. You're really working hard on
    producing them. Good job!

    Message: 6326
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: SJG/gradualism
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 07:44:50

    Stephen Jay Gould is a proponent of the "Punctuated Equilibrium" model
    of evolution. SJG has never disowned the primary theory of evolution as
    espoused by Darwin. I suggest reading _Panda's Thumb_ and other books
    by SJG for a brilliant man's analysis of evolution.

    Message: 6327
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: cliff/hate
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 07:55:47

    Cliff, I have tried to state the facts and theories as clearly and
    dispassionately as possible. Both you and Carter seem to react viscerally to
    reasoned arguments. My only conclusion can be that when faced with
    irrefutable fact and strong theories that have no reasonble answer, your
    frustration manifests itself in attacks against the people making the
    arguments rather than the argument itself. I strongly urge that you read
    the books that I have mentioned to get a clear understanding of evolution
    and the theory of evolution. It is a fascinating subject. I think that it is
    miraculous that the laws of the universe have led to such wondrous things.
    You know, God doesn't have to perform His miracles by decree. A truly
    powerful God could set up the rules of the universe and let them take their
    course without His intervention. How much more wonderful is an ingenious
    plan than having to tinker with everything to keep things going. Also,
    evolution makes us all brothers with each other. No one is above anyone
    else. No one is chosen over another. We are all equal. Isn't that wonderful
    !

    Message: 6328
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ?
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 08:47:19

    Tell you what. Since Roger wants so badly to believe that my reactions
    to "his irrefutable evidence" don't seem to fit his perfect ideal
    of submissive behaviour before a greater force.....

    YOU WIN...

    Now, go play outside and argue amoungst yourselves. You have just proven
    you are incapable of the very same thing you accuse Cliff and myself of.
    YOu haven't changed anyone's mind or even educated them a teeny bit.
    I've been through all of this..it's your turn to play catch-up because
    you haven't made it beyond your own ignorance. (See? we can thro mud too!)
    So, in light of history, nothing will be accomplished here..the players
    have proven this already. Further discussion is completely out of the
    question. It's a waste of time. Maybe not to you because you enjoy
    trying to put words into mouths and get people to react to your bile.
    Heh heh. Enjoy your own bile.
    "So go stick it!"
                    -Pfft!

    Message: 6329
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Gould
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 10:43:44

    Well, I'm behind, but I read a few things as they flew by on the way into my
    buffer...

    Gould, as Roger as said, is a staunch defender of evolution and science. He
    doesn't believe that the 'gradual change' is the MECHANISM of evolution. He
    proposes that the mechanism is 'punctuated equilibrium', where things more
    or less stay the same for a while, and then a large amount of change occurs
    in a relatively short time.

    The writers of the anti-science, anti-evolution books like to find
    statements such as Gould's and twist them of all meaning. reading a sentence
    or two above or below (or better yet, his whole article) would make
    it clear that he knows evolution to be true - he's just trying to convince
    other scientists that he understands HOW it works.

    A lot of the so-called "quotes" from scientists that are "anti-evolution"
    are similar out-of-context quotes.  The researchers of those tracts are
    shameless.  Lippard has spent a lot of time bashing a local such idiot.

    Message: 6330
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Debate / dispute
    Subject: Last 50 or so
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:11:58

    Interesting reading...
    Well, back to the books.

    Message: 6331
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:35:41

      I don't know how the first species came about. I suspect that such
    unknowns are the reason that early man invented gods to serve as
    explanations of such things. To me the fact that something is unknown means
    that there is still a reasonable explanation that hasn't been found. It does
    not mean that reason should be discarded in favor of long accumulated folk
    tales.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 6332
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:16:30

    Dean, since you cannot answer the question Cliff posed to you....
    and your best guess was that "early man" invented Gods to serve as
    explanations....
    So...do you feel compelled to *invent* a God to explain a reason?

    I thought not.

    It's about as ludicrous as your guess.

    Message: 6333
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: B.Dog / Writers
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:26:12

    "The writer of anti-science, anti-evolution books like to find statements
    such as Goulds' and twist them of all meaning."

    Geee....funny you should mention that...seems just recently a *lot*
    of folks have been doing that with stuff out of the bible. Funny eh?
    As far as your presumption is concerned..whereas you lump the two phrases;
    "anti-science" and "anti-evolution" into one....
    Your classification of science then must include acceptance of theories,
    theoretical and unsubstatiated guesses...and best guesses..made by
    someone who made the guesses to fit the rest of his / her / their
    story. The lable "science" does not apply in strict terms with the
    phrase "evolution". It is a common misconception that the study of
    evolution itself is a science. It is not.
    If they have chnaged their mind about this, then the study of Tarot cards
    must also be classified as a science...as well as the study of
    the zodiac, falling twigs, etc etc etc.
    In fact, studying the bible would classify o{e as a scientist too!
    Isn't that special?
    You like {o use the word "science" as some sort of concrete foundation
    built in untarnished stone, rising high above the moral ethic. I laugh
    at this thought...and the same people seem to use the word, overuse the word
    and anyone who aint a scientist is nothing...heh heh...and you say we use
    the bible as a crutch?
    Heh heh heh

    Message: 6334
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: Cliff on dinosaurs
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:36:31

    Most evolutionists believe there is an ancestoral link between birds and
    lizards.

    If you think that evolution is a "snowjob," what do you believe?  In Adam
    and Eve?  Oh, no snowjob there, nothing illogical about that - simple and
    stupid.

    Message: 6335
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:43:57

    There is a difference between predicting weather (in terms of precipitation
    and wind) and the expectation of annual SEASONS.  If you are trying to act
    like an idiot, you're doing a great job.

    Message: 6336
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: zak
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 20:23:55

    See my entry from Stephen Jay Gould's _The Panda's Thumb_ in the main
    public SIG.

    Message: 6337
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/Contradictions
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:34:02

    Please share with us a few of the Bible's contradictions. Perhaps we can
    find out if they are contradictions at all, but rather misunderstandings due
    to passages taken out of context, or their broader context.

    Message: 6338
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Ann
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:35:32

    (Pardon if this has been answered already, but) The book Ann is referring to
    is our Bible.

    Message: 6339
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jeff B./Weather
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:56:56

    If we understood EVERYTHING, that would make us God. To me, the fact that
    our solar system continues to move in a regular and predictable fashion, in
    which we are not worried about another planet or moon veering off course and
    crashing into us...the fact that we can do calculations based upon the
    regular movement of planets, and launch and LAND unmanned modules onto those
    planets based on the calculations we derive from the regularity of movement
    is quite amazing. Long-term weather forecasting is not precisely
    predictable, but we can guarantee that it is going to be cold in December
    and hot in July. We know that the trees will be green in April, orange in
    September, and bare in January. We know that it the sun will be visible at
    10:00am, and the moon at 10:00pm. Now this is not to say that "on the
    third day, God created calendars and Rolex watches." But the fact that we
    can use these two forms of measurement with such accuracy is something to
    consider. And the fact that we all stand still and do not go floating off or
    clutch at a tree for dear life as our earth spins and orbits. That our
    bodies are independently functioning devices. That our brains can store a
    lifetime of information in a single small mass of grey matter, and that they
    can receive and process information instantaneously to and from all of it's
    sensory perceptors. The fact that two humans can join together and a new
    life is formed; that each body produces one-half of the material needed to
    bring about a new person, and no one person can bring a child into the world
    entirely of their own bodily capabilities. What causes reproduction anyhow?
    We inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide; plants absorb carbon dioxide and
    emit oxygen. And so on, and so on.

    Message: 6340
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Grey-bearded
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:57:47

    A misconception right there. "God is spirit."

    Message: 6341
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last twenty
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:53:58

    Great reason and logic coming from the evolution camp.  Questions are being
    posed that are being "over-looked" by creationists.  I am impressed.

    Roger, you certainally have given life a lot of thought.  Keep up the good
    work.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 3793
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Me
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:24:19

    WOW!  I have received 7 letters since last Friday in responce to my reviews
    in Factsheet Five.  I have to go and make another batch of copies!  After
    my finals are over, I plan on printing up some new stories.  I may even do a
    collection of the Apollo stories.
    If any of you want copies of anything, let me know.

    Message: 3794
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:52:19

    Have you seen the review of Petrisko's "Hernia Retraction Accordian" in the
    New Times?  They loved it.

    Message: 3795
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Zak/last
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:56:11

    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
    I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
    hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
    you, I hate you, I hate you.  But then again, I love you, know what I mean?

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1292
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:54:14

    Manners and respect - ha ha.  If you have been studying so hard, I would
    like to see more coherent arguments than the ones you originally posted.  I
    quickly lose sight of manners and respect when I see arguments that are so
    disrespectful of intelligence.

    Let me specify:  Your arguments gave quoted information in which you did not
    even state what it was you were quoting and what the context was.  You made
    several claims without one bit of evidence that could be interpreted as
    conclusive.  I challenge  you to do so, and if you cannot, I will gladly say
    that I think your argument is weak.  If you wish to interpret this as
    disrespect, go right ahead.

    Message: 1293
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Sandy
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:57:06

    I don't want to hear your claims without evidence.

    Just the facts, Maam.

    Message: 1294
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Devil Shit!!!
    Subject: canine excrement
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:07:40

    Thanks, Rod.  Tough fingers, I guess.  I used to play the piano as a
    kid.  I never realized it would be good training for a career in
    computers.

    Message: 1295
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Devil Shit!!!
    Subject:  Doggie, Bow-wow
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:59:19

    So, your career is in computers, eh?  I specialize in frontal lobotomies,
    both the old method and the new.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 65067
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 05:24:50

     Why should the Bible make sense within the context of the rules of the
    universe as we know it ROger?
     Man, although he continually tries, will never fully understand God's
    universe. Personally, I believe that God created it that way, so that man
    could be a constantly learning creation, ever growing in the knowledge and
    pursuing awe and wonder at the scope of God's ability.
     THere was an article in the paper just the other day that told about how
    amazed some scientists were at the uniformity and obvious planning that is
    evident in even the furthest reaches of man's view.
     If God laid it all out so simply that we cold understand it all from
    kindergarten on, how would our faith be exercized? Remember, faith IS the
    EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the SUBSTANCE of things not seen.

    Message: 65068
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck..err Adkins
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 08:34:57

    Your self idolatry in those last few messages is showing again Mark.
    Time to take your medicine.
    The above shows an example of how to irratate someone without actually
    insulting them. If you are incapable of manifesting enough comprehension
    to see and understand the difference, then indeed, your claim that
    labelling religion (or anyone's differing beliefs) as a pernacious fairy
    tale  was an innocent mistake.
    Otherwise, quit the chicanery, it's so thin and vain it actually reeks.
    Someone once repeatedly asked why "All the Christians refuse to answer.."
    blah de blah blah blah...
    (1) Evidence of the attitude displayed by Mr Adkins (Jeff Beck in disguise)
    is somewhat typical of a lot of the same people who claim to want answers
    but in reality wish to use it as a forum for self loving worship.
    Using the falsehood of a real debate as a soapstand of mockery.
    (2) When facts are presented, they're (obviously) disputed. But instead
    of continued debate on the topic, 100% of the time I see ad hominem attacks
    and more mockery.

    My response is simple. I don't answer to anybody here. If you're so
    uncomfortable with my happiness, inner peace and well being, that's
    quite simply YOUR problem. It obviously upsets you, but instead of
    listening, you're out to accuse, point, blame, spit and fight.
    Now, GO PLAY OUTSIDE.
                          --==** THE MIGHTY APOLLO BELIEVER **==--

    Message: 65069
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:51:26

      I suppose that a life of using reason and never accepting outlandish
    arguements on faith would seem meaningless to you. To me, a life of devotion
    to something which must be taken on faith is worse than meaningless, because
    life's purpose is falsely understood. I get along fine with theists and
    atheists alike, I just take into account that the theist holds a large part
    of life apart from inquiry and modification. Many of them can still function
    fairly well, if they do a good job of restricting that uncritical habit
    of mind to as few areas of thought as possible.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65070
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean / Last
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:13:36

    "I just take into account that the theist holds a large part of life
    apart from inquiry and modification. Many of them can still function
    fairly well, if they do a good job of restricting that uncritical habit of
    mind as to few areas of thought as possible"....

    In this you attempt to use your own thought process as a measure of worth
    against anothers. That you assume that it would be necessary to "hold apart"
    a "large part of life"...and "still function fairly well".
    You have made a highly biased, unscientific and ludicrous at best statement
    here. Is it's purpose to denigrate theists or to belittle their capability
    of living a full and productive life?
    After reading that, it's obvious that you think so. In fact, taking your
    twisted logic a little further, one could summarize that you would think
    the same of anyone who differs from you in any way...by skin color...
    hair color...perhaps even someone who *believes* in going to bed later
    or earlier than yourself. You open a window to a very narrow minded
    personality..one which sees fit to devalue those thoughts or beliefs which
    do not match its own must -in your logic- be inferior.
    Well, as *proof* against your last message...I live a very full and
    productive life. I have invented and produced, created and destroyed...
    But I don't permit narrow minded values to judge other people. I leave
    the judgement to a much higher authority and his name is Jesus Christ.
    "See you later"

    Message: 65071
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Shoot Out GT
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:29:47

    I will arrive at the I-17 and Carefree junction a few minutes..maybe
    even 5 or 10...before 9:30am.
    I will be driving a Grey Chevy S-10 Blazer...front plate reads:
     N 7 G Y X
    I will be leaving the area 9:30am if there are those of you who would
    like to follow me in to the location of the Shoot-out GT.

    Be there early please!

            -Mike

    Message: 65072
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peter P....
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:25:44

            Why sure Peter...  If they leave me alone, I leave them alone.

    Message: 65073
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:29:47

            I have gotten along with you for many years in person.  I never
    recall you bringing it up, nor have I ever tried to 'Save You'. As for the
    rest of your message, it's just silly.

    Message: 65074
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Dean Hathaway
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:43:06

            See how insulting you guys get...  You say we don't 'reason' or
    "inquire' into life around us....  Because we believe what we believe, you
    think we don't think.  Where do you think I got all those facts that I
    posted in the $TAtus SIG?  I think of how things must work...a whole lot.
    I resent you saying otherwise very much so...  It damn hurts!

            I have an analytical mind and can take anything apart and put it
    together again.....without instructions.  I am always thinking.

                                            clif-

    Message: 65075
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shoot-Out GT
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:51:25

            Bring Drinks!   (Water Soda etc, but NO BEER!)
    EVERYONE is welcome.  There will be NO political or religious debates, as we
    are here for only one thing...FUN!

            If you have never fired a weapon, but would like to see what it is
    like....please come on out.  Sandy who is a Weapons Instructor for the USMA
    will be there to help you.  SAFETY will be high priority of the day.

            There will be 22's, 380, 9mm, 38, 357, 44, 45 and others.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65076
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: telltale wishbone 1
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 20:05:01

    Here is an excerpt for your analytical minds from Stephen Jay Gould's
    _The Panda's Thumb_ on the subject of Archaeopteryx. Put on your thinking
    caps and enjoy...
    "But how can we view feathers as an inheritance from dinosaurs; surely no
    Brontosaurus was ever invested like a peacock. For what did Archaeopteryx
    use it feathers ? If for flight, then feathers may belong to birds alone;
    no one has ever postulated an airborne dinosaur (flying pterosaurs belong
    to a separate group). But Ostrom's anatomical reconstruction strongly
    suggests that Archaeopteryx could not fly; its feathered forearms are
    joined to its shoulder girdle in a manner quite inappopropriate for flapping
    a wing. Ostrom suggests a dual function for feathers: insulation to protect
    a small warmblooded creature from heat loss and as a sort of basket trap to
    catch flying insects and other small prey in a fully enclosed emabrace.

    Archaeopteryx was a small animal. It weighed less than a pound, and stood
    a full foot shorter than the smallest dinosaur. Small creatures have a
    very high ratio of surface area to volume. Heat is generated over a body's
    volume and radiated out through its surface. Small warmblooded creatures
    have special problems in maintaining a constant body temperature since
    heat dissipates so quickly from their relatively enormous surface. Shrews,
    although insulated by a coat of hair, must eat nearly all the time to keep
    their internal fires burning. The ratio of surface to volume was so low
    in large dinosaurs that they could maintain constant temperatures without
    insulation. But as soon as any dinosaur or its descendent became very small
    it would need insulation to remain warmblooded. Feathers may have served
    as a primary adaptation for constant temperatures in small dinosaurs.
    Bakker suggests that many small coelurosaurs may have been feathered as
    well. (Very few fossils preserve any feathers; Archaeopteryx is a great
    rarity of exquisite preservation.)

    Feathers, evolved primarily for insulation, were soon exploited for another
    purpose in flight. Indeed, it is hard to imagine how feathers could have
    evolved if they never had a use apart from flight. The ancestors of birds
    were surely flightless, and feathers did not arise all at once and fully
    formed. How could natural selection build an adaptation through several
    intermediate stages in ancestors that had no use for it ? By postulating
    a primary function for insulation, we may view feathers as a device for
    giving warm-blooded dinosaurs an access to the ecological advantages of
    small size.

    Ostrom's arguments for a descent of birds from coelurosaurian dinosaurs
    do not depend upon the warm-bloodedness of dinosaurs or the primary
    utility of feathers as insulation. They are based instead upon the
    classical methods of comparative anatomy -- detailed part-by-part
    similarity between bones, and a contention that such striking resemblence
    must reflect common descent, not convergence. I believe that Ostrom's
    arguments will stand no matter how the hot debated about warmblooded
    dinosaurs resolves itself. [recent evidence indicates warmbloodness -rm]

    But the descent of birds from dinosaurs wins its fascination in the
    public eye only if birds inherited thier primary adaptations of
    feathers and warmbloodedness directly from dinosaurs. If birds developed
    these adaptations after they branced [from dinosaurs], then dinosaurs are
    perfectly good reptiles in their physiology; they should be kept with
    turtles, lizards, and their kin in the class Reptilia. But if dinosaurs
    really were warmblooded [as recent evidence indicates -rm], and if feathers
    were their way of remaining warmblooded at small sizes, then birds
    inherited the basis of their success from dinosaurs. And if dinosaurs were
    closer to birds than other reptiles in their physiology, then we have a
    classical structural argument -- not just a genealogical claim -- for the
    formal alliance of birds and dinosaurs in a new class, Dinosauria.

    Bakker and Galton write:'The avian radiation is an aerial exploitation of
    basic dinosaur physiology and structure, much as the bat radiation is an
    aerial exploitation of basic, primitive mammal physiology. Bats are not
    separated into an independent class merely because they fly. We believe
    that neither flight nor the species diversity of birds merits separation
    from dinosaurs on a class level.' Think of Tyrannosaurus, and thank the
    old terror as representative of his group, when you split the wishbone
    later this month. [from Natural History, November, 1977]

    Message: 65079
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shootout GT
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:18:53

    How many people are coming?  I'm planning on being there tomorrow,
    with some artillery...

    Message: 65080
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Ear protection
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:22:37

    Thanks for the hint, I just bought a pair on my way home from work.
    Boy, they sure are better than the ones they hand out at Ben
    Whatsisname.  I usually have to stick plugs in my ears underneath
    those AS WELL to avoid being deafened by anybody at the next table.

    Message: 65081
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Who else?
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:38:02

            Burg Thornbob... or is that Bob Thornburg & 3 sons are coming to the
    GT.   Who else?  Please speak up as time is running short...

            I-17 north to the Carefree highway exit...  Right at the turn off
    there is a staging area...  Wait there for Dean Hathaway or Mike Carter to
    lead you in.   If...you should come late and need to find the place
    yourself, head east (right) down Carefree for 2.1 miles, turn right into the
    desert and go another tenth of a mile then bear right cutting across a small
    dry wash and stay on that path for about 4 tenths of a mile... and there be
    us!   Yes, cars have no trouble making it.

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65082
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger / Dinosaurs
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:47:19

            I enjoyed those posts Roger.  I have always had that as a favorite
    subject since I was a kid.  I read everything I could find, and even
    gave lectures on them when I was in school.   However...seems the info on
    dinosaurs has changed drastically since my school days.

            If I could have a time machine, (dream) that time period would be
    one of the first I would go to.  Fascinating!  (not to kill them either,
    but to photograph and observe)

                            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65084
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/voting
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:16:23

    Although there isn't "vote in any party primary" capability in this state,
    one can change party affiliation (50 days in advance?) and vote in any party
    you wish. Then change back again after election/primary day.

    Message: 65085
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Whoever
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 23:15:40

    Re:  "I gave him a perfectly valid answer: that a destructive fairy tale is
    no less destructive for its imaginary nature."

    Huh?  I don't remember getting your answer.  It's luck I saw your answer
    addressed to Cliff so I could answer it.

    Answer:  The only destruction I know of is done by wolves in sheep's
    clothing, that is, by non-Christians who claim to be Christians.  Jim Jones
    is a good example of this.  Jesus said to look out for them.  He said we
    could identify them by the results of their actions.  Basically, Jesus never
    asked us for much.  He summarized it in 2 statements.  Love your neighbor
    and yourself, and love God.  For some strange reason, this makes people like
    Rod want to puke.

    Message: 65086
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/Religion
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 23:51:58

    Silly things like fornication. Yeah, such a silly thing. A sexual
    relationship outside the realm of committment, with the possibility of a
    resulting child. Just kill it before it's born, rid ourselves of the
    inconvenience. Yeah, sounds real good. And those sexual diseases spread
    among those who don't care how many people they do it with. Remember, two
    virgins cannot get syphillis or genital herpes. Gee, I wonder if there's a
    connection there?

    I don't do drugs, and I don't smoke. I may consume alcohol, but it is never
    more than one or two wine coolers or a small glass of wine with dinner, and
    I never drink to excess. The Bible warns about gluttony and drunkenness,
    does it not? I would consider a Biblical condemnation of drunkenness (and
    there are some mighty strong ones in there) to mean that drunkenness (or any
    excess) is wrong. (Sexual excess? See above paragraph.)

    I do not "suffer" through life. Just because I do not indulge in excess or
    do things contrary to my conscience does not mean I am living some "partial"
    life. I do not sleep with anyone but my wife, and I don't feel I am missing
    out (and yes, she was my first). I don't shoot garbage into my arm "just to
    find out what it's like and experience life to the fullest." I lead my life
    as honestly as I can, with God's help, because I WANT to. This is a
    completely fulfilling life FOR ME. I am happy and completely content. I
    don't need to give in to every temptation to feel that I've achieved
    something. That I CAN resist the world's temptations, I feel is achievement.

    If I were to die tomorrow, and there was no God, I wouldn't be suffering
    loss. I lived my life in a manner that was completely sufficient and
    satisfying to me.

    BUT...if YOU were to die tomorrow, and there God DOES exist, where would you
    stand?

    My salvation is not due to whether or not I put any money in the collection
    plate. My sins were paid for at the Cross (and by the way, so were yours,
    you just refuse to believe it). Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and
    Tammy are NOT God. IMHO, I do not believe they represent God. YAHWEH,
    Jehovah...HE is God. HE is the one that tells me that salvation is mine
    without any merit of my own. As for the collection plate, any respectable
    church teaches that offerings are given of free will and not demanded. If
    one does not wish to put in the plate, they pass it on to the next person.
    If someone looks at that person funny, that's their OWN fault; God does not
    want grudgingly-given gifts, he wants ones that are given freely and from
    the heart. God does not look down upon that person because he did not feel
    in his heart that he wanted to monetarily support his congregation at that
    time.

    Those on the outside are so quick to condemn what they do not know. Christ
    said that there would be those that would go out using His name, but would
    not be part of His own.

    But of course, you do not know Scripture, and therefore conclude that anyone
    who says "I represent Christ" DOES.

    Message: 65089
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/65060
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:10:06

    Ok, what exactly makes Christianity "a destructive fairy tale?"

    Message: 65090
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Your 5
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:14:44

    Your five messages offer many things that I feel you deserve a thought-out,
    intelligent response to. I have captured them, and will compose responses
    offline, as I did previously. I hope to get to them soon. The weekend is
    pretty booked, but look for them mid-week.

    Message: 65091
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Minds
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:24:35

    Yes, just because one trusts in Jesus as his/her Lord, doesn't mean that the
    person closes all thought processes and becomes a la-de-da-de fruitcake. We
    wonder about things, too. But we also awe in God and His creation, and trust
    in the knowledge that the One that keeps this ol' universe spinning around
    is the same One that loves and cares about, and listens to...little ol' me.
    He's not too big to care about the little things. There is a peace of mind
    in knowing Christ that just cannot be explained to someone who doesn't know
    Him. I can sit and talk with someone who wants to give me a hard time
    because of what I believe, and I can stand my ground, and walk away, still
    strong in my faith. The non-believer may call it ignorance, but I call it
    faith in the One who keeps His promises.

    Message: 65092
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last Post 4 2Nite
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:41:05

    I believe in God. This is not because I made a decision to do so, but
    because of God's grace. This belief, therefore, is not shaken by this or
    that. This faith is not lost because of last minute doubt on one's deathbed.
    The fact that belief comes from God and not ourselves is the greatest
    comfort in a Christian's life. It is not by our merit that we are justified
    ...neither is it by our merit that we are sanctified. We do not have to rely
    on our imperfect selves as a factor in whether or not we are God's children.
    God gave all people the opportunity to become His children through the
    vicarious atonement at Calvary. Mankind's sins are atoned for, and the only
    sin that condemns anymore is unbelief. Unbelief in Christ's redemptive work,
    is the only action we can take credit for, in regard to our eternal life.

    My belief is strong, not because I was beat into submission by anyone, but
    because my Lord was beat and tortured unto death for me. It seems like
    nonsense to one who has turned his back on any possibility of Biblical
    truth, but I am a learned individual, I have intelligence and am not some
    spaced out wacko, and yet I can say to you, it is not nonsense. If you
    consider me a fool for believing what I believe, I cannot change that. I
    cannot do the Spirit's work in changing another's heart. All I can do
    is share the seed (God's word). Read the parable of the sower sometime for
    insight on this. I might feel compelled, according to my faith, to tell you
    of the consequences of unbelief, but that does not make me stop being your
    friend. I regret that I might not see you in heaven, however, so I should
    spend whatever time I can with you now. I hope you might someday understand.

    Message: 65093
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cliff on Dean's post
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:11:05

    I didn't detect any "airs" in Dean's post about religion.  He was simply
    stating something as he saw it.  I have noticed over the years that Dean is
    a person of very sound logic.  More people should listen to him.

    Message: 65094
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl, you asked.
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:13:38

    Hereunder is a short list of some of the alleged "saviors" who came into
    the world, and preached and prophesied their delusions and were executed
    long before Jesus:
          Salvahan of Caribec............100 B.C.
          Quirinus of Rome...............506 B.C.
          Wittoba of Telingonese.........522 B.C.
          Prometheus of Greece...........547 B.C.
          Quezalcoti of Mexico...........587 B.C.
          Sakia of Hindustan.............600 B.C.
          Alkestus of Aegeia.............600 B.C.
          Iao of Nepaul..................622 B.C.
          Indra of Tibet.................725 B.C.
          Bali of Orissa.................725 B.C.
          Hesus of Stonehedge............834 B.C.
          Tammus of Syria...............1100 B.C.
          Crishna of India..............1200 B.C.
          Atys of Chaldea...............1200 B.C.
          Thulis of Egypt...............1700 B.C.
          Osiris of Karnac..............2200 B.C.

    (FROM THE SATIRICON)

    Message: 65095
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:14:27

        Then there was Beli of the Afghans, Horns of Egypt, Baal of Phoenicia
    and Tyre, Zoroaster of Persia, Bal of Babylon, Kameloxis of Thrace, Zoar of
    Bonzes, Adad of Ninevah, Deva-Tat of Siam, Elaides of Thebes, Beddin of
    Japan, Cadmus of the Hellenes, Hel and Fata of the Mandans and Gentaut of
    the Aztecs--and many others.
        All of the above alleged "Christs" were "human sacrifices" remember.
    They gave thier "lives and precious blood," for the sure and certain
    redemption of their believers.
        Without the aid of a husband the following mythological young women
    bore a Divine Son:
          Miss Yesoda...................Mother of Chrishna
          Miss Celestine................Mother of Zulis
          Miss Chemalma.................Mother of Quezalcotl
          Miss Semele...................Mother of Bacchus
          Miss Prude....................Mother of Hercules
          Miss Alcemone.................Mother of Alcides
          Miss Shingmon.................Mother of Yu
          Miss Mayence..................Mother of Hesus
          Miss Mary.....................Mother of Jesus
        Confucius, Zoroaster, Chrishna, Pythagoras, Mithra, and Sakia had
    angelic and shepherd visitors and their mothers were called by the devotees
    "Queen of Heaven." ---T.T. Woods, Contemporary American Writer.
    (to be continued)

    Message: 65096
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: General comment
    Date: 04/28/90  Time: 02:16:57

    I honestly do not intend this message to be taken as a "red herring".  I am
    being perfectly honest in my opinion just as Daryl is being truthful in
    his.

    I have been giving the creationists view a lot of thought but something
    keeps puzzling me and it is, to wit:

    On one hand we have this spirit entity that creationists claim is
    responsible for all life existing.

    On the other, this all-loving, all-knowing entity sets certain demands on
    some of those (all humanoids) it created.  Okay..... this is my point:

    This entity, because of its demands reminds me of a Adolph Hitler, Joseph
    Stalin and Pol Pot all rolled into one.

    For redemption, according to Christians, all humans must accept that this
    entity had a son who came to earth to be put to death for the sins of all
    humans.  Those not accepting will perish in a lake of fire for all of
    eternity.

    Now, this all knowing entity surely must have known that billions of humans
    have already died not believing in this son.  Right this instant, for
    instance, and this instant, and this instant, a human has died that is
    either a Jew, an atheist, an shiite moslem, a buddhist or something other
    than a Christian.

    And that is why this Christian God reminds me of the most evil entity ever
    imagined.  Even more evil than the three evil people that I mentioned
    because they could only kill the body, which they did and quite often but
    this God spirit tortures the soul for evermore.

    I hope you understand this simple but logical point that I am making.  It
    is a serious question in my mind and my hope is that some bible scholar out
    there can set me straight.

    My final point is, and I am very curious about it as well, is how in the
    world can anyone get an update on a book that was written 1500 years ago and
    longer?  I mean, I'm positive that all things are in a constant state of
    change and 1500 years is a long time.  What's the deal?   -Rod

    P.S.  I'm sure that other gods are just as bad and probably much worse but
    somehow I just can't help understanding the problem in this light.
    Perhaps Daryl could give me an answer.