### Apollo BBS Archive - December 26 - 27, 1989

    Message: 62131          NOTE:  THIS IS ME
    Author: Shawn Pauling
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Message
    Date: 12/25/89  Time: 20:24:39

    Below is a quote from a user of this system.  It is from message number
    62063.

    "In God's mind, the Bible existed in its entirety before the world was
    created.  He intended it to be a complete book in man's time."   -Bob
    Thornburg

    Help, I can't seem to find that passage in my Bible.  Would the author of
    the post please elaborate?

    Or perhaps Bob had a revelation that he would like to share.

    Message: 62132
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann's logic
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 02:02:59

            Okay, send in all the foreign troops who believe in the Canal and
    want to protect American lives on American property in the Zone.  Forget the
    fact there will still be human life lost... (I forget, Ann thinks American
    lives are more important then British, Canadian etc)  And forget the fact
    there will be more deaths because of the confusion.
    Now using this same stupid logic, since we believe in democracy, we now
    should send in U.S. troops to Romania where there are about 70,000 to 80,000
    deaths compared to the 24 U.S. service men in Panama.  Hell yea... let's get
    more of our boys killed!  Ann... you are right on!

    As for drinking and smoking... at least the troops in Panama are risking
    their lives for a worthy cause.  In the long run, there will be many less
    deaths in Panama because of what has happend.  Smoking and drinking yourself
    to death for a selfish reason of self pleasure helps no one.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Good Grief....where is J.T. when you need him?

    Message: 62133
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 1989
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 02:14:13

            What a year....  This has got to be the one that is know for the
    fall of Communism.   I never thought I would see the Berlin Wall opened up.
    Dictators, one by one are dropping by the wayside.  People are learning they
    do indeed have power when united.  Who's next...Castro in Cuba?

            I love it!   May the 1990's be great!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62134
    Author: Brad Larremore
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hi
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 02:51:45

    im new here. are there any rpgs?

    Message: 62137
    Author: Beauragard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Role-playing games
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 03:47:02

    This board has no RPGs as you would expect. Occasionally, however, one user
    will imitate (take on the role) of another user, either in a
    "My Dinner With..." series or as a faked-up version of the other user's
    name.

    Welcome to the City. Enjoy Apollo.

    Message: 62138
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Shirley Bear
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 05:42:10

     The same to you and yours Shirley, and a very Happy New Year too!

    Message: 62139
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Role playing games
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 05:47:47

    Two requests in the same day? Strange, indeed!
     NO, there are no role playing games on Apollo, and I hope there never are.
    We hafve enough fun just being and playing ourselves, and the two of you are
    most welcome to join us for the time of your lives. You don't have to play
    at being someone or something you're not. Just express an opinion, any
    opinion, on any subject, and watch the fur fly! It's more fun than any
    stupid role playing game!

    Message: 62140
    Author: $ Bill Jones
    Category: Question?
    Subject: crc
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 07:53:38

    I just downloaded a file and when I uncrunched it it said the CRC was
    bad. What does this mean?
    Bill

    Message: 62141
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 08:27:46

    It means you lose.

    The CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) is the way the crunch/uncrunch program
    makes sure that everything is hunky-dory.  The cause of a CRC error could be
    that the file was truncated, or that part of it was garbled in transmission
    (to Apollo in the first place, or while you were pulling it down).

    Unfortunately, it can also mean that either the crunch or uncrunch program
    has a bug, and the CRC is *really* ok ...  You should try downloading the
    file again (making sure you're using the right mode, if you have a choice,
    between ascii(text) and binary) and try to uncrunch.  If you still have a
    problem, tell 'us' which file you don't like, and I'm sure that somebody
    else will give it a try.

    Message: 62142
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B.Dog/Panama
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 09:24:52

      True, the public relations aspect of a multi-national effort is good, but
    the mechanics of it can more than make up for any benefits. I remember how
    Jimmy Carter botched the Iranian rescue mission by putting together small
    units of separate armed forces to carry out a difficult surgical strike. The
    problems of command and control in a difficult situation like invading a
    country without hurting any more of the population that absolutely necessary
    for the mission objectives would make it a nightmare of communications. The
    possibilities for friendly fire incidents would be increased significantly,
    with potential rifts between the participating countries as a result. Using
    military units of other countries, with different radio proceedures, and
    even different languages, would make the mission much more dangerous than
    even the multi-service force which failed under Carter.
      Public relations may be an important consideration, but in a case like
    this, I think risk management has to take precedence. By using a cohesive
    and experienced fighting force, and striking with large enough numbers to
    gain control of the situation quickly, the chances of failure were greatly
    reduced.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 62143
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dear Cindy
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 09:44:05

    No roles playing games here! This is basically a conversation BBS. Hope you
    decide to join us. You won't be sorry. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62144
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Panama
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 09:56:26

    "At least the troops in Panama are risking their lives for a worthy cause".
    Oh yeah! What is that worthy cause?

    I see your point re: sending troops from other countries in so that they can
    get killed too! ALL life is sacred, not just Americans. I hate war of
    anykind regardless of WHY it must be done. This time, I believe it could
    have been avoided. Regardless of WHO owns that canal, it is still someone
    else's country. We are not the world's police force!

    "A selfish pleasure helps no one!" I do not agree with that. It helps the
    one that does it! Eating chocolate could be a selfish pleasure too. Do you
    avoid all the selfish pleasures in life? All of this has NOTHING to do with
    Panama!!!!

    Why are you asking JT for help here? Your holding your own just fine and
    stating your opinions very loud and clear. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62145
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Shirley
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 09:59:39

    I see you took my advice and hopped right in! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62146
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: CRC errors
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 10:52:51

    Cyclic Redundancy Check....  A binary polynomial which is used to check
    information on blocks of data.  In short, bad data...try ownloading it
    again.  If still bad, let me know and the name of the file you are trying to
    ownload and uncrunch.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62147
    Author: Ray Rosenbush
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ANN
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 15:36:26

    ANN,DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO GET THROUGH TO YOU BEFORE X-MAS, BUT I HOPE IT
    WAS THE BEST EVER.HOPE SANTA GAVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANTED.I ALSO HOPE THE
    NEW YEAR BRINGS YOU HEALTH AND HAPPYNESS.  RAY

    Message: 62148
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cindy/RPG's
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 18:41:10

    As you may have noticed, many of the regular users are involved in a RPG
    that causes them to log onto this BBS and make inane and outrageous
    statements.  Welcome aboard!

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 62149
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Marriage
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 22:21:24

       I seem to notice this continuing tone of distrust toward the marriage
    mate, and some implied inevitability of divorce by some of those discussing
    this topic. I feel that if the Biblical principles concerning marriage are
    observed, then this preoccupation with items of a self-interest nature can
    be eliminated.

    Message: 62150
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Porn
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 22:30:47

       In my opinion, pornography in any degree is wrong. You can tell me all
    you want that those participating are consenting adults, and I have few
    doubts that you are right. However, what light are they shedding on the
    sexual act? It is promoted as a casual thing that can be done by anyone to
    anyone without regard to the risk of disease or pregnancy (I could continue
    with a few items of a more "moral" nature, but I'm sure you know my
    viewpoint on these things.) I am not saying that sex should be some mere
    means of procreation to the exclusion of actual physical enjoyment. But I
    feel that what a committed (take that word however you want it) couple do,
    should be done in privacy, without photo-lights and 35mm cameras whirring
    about. And if a couple can't get excited without watching some other couple
    making like crazed animals, then they have a problem. There are few people
    who watch "entry-level" porn that could actually sit and comfortably watch a
    real couple doing it in their presence. But what is the real difference
    between these two?

    Message: 62151
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Grave
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 22:34:15

    What exactly do you mean by "this is my opinion of the movie - you have
    another I guess." Are you implying that I condone the depiction of rape in
    films? With my comments on pornography, I would certainly hope not! I
    believe a film can handle the subject of rape without acting it out in
    graphic realism. Please tell me what you meant by that comment.

    Message: 62152
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John R./God
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 22:49:13

    If you believe in looking at things from a Biblical point of view, you would
    need to agree that disease, natural disasters, and death are all a result of
    man's initial rebellion against God (found in the Genesis account.) Though
    God allows these things to happen (man was warned about the wages of sin and
    disobeyed anyhow, we must understand that there is a higher plan, one that
    we will never fully understand. For a Christian that knows that his sins
    were paid for by the blood of Christ on the cross, there is no fear of
    (actually "no NEED for fear of") death. I believe that death is not the end,
    but actually a beginning. Had Adam and Eve not transgressed against God's
    law, there would be no disease, natural disasters, or death. Man would have
    lived forever without ever knowing of disease, destruction, or death. But
    man was decieved into a greedy desire to know all things, to be "like God."
    I agree that life is difficult here on Earth, especially when a natural
    disaster hits close to home, or when a relative or friend dies. But in the
    knowledge that there is a God that is in control, even when things at times
    seem to us as chaos, and that life on this planet is not all there is, and
    that there is a purpose for us being here (not being the end-result of some
    great cosmic hiccup), it makes living on this rock a lot more bearable.
    Believe me, with a trust that all things are possible with God, a lot of
    problems have been solved in my life, a lot of worries have been vaporized,
    and a genuine sense of value has taken control of my life. I have actually
    felt the presence of God in my life; yes, PHYSICALLY as well as mentally.
    3 years ago I was an agnostic/borderline atheist. My problem was I just did
    not understand exactly who God was, and what He is all about.

    Message: 62153
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Throwing Stones
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:01:40

       Yes, it comes back to this. Dipping your paintbrush firmly into the mud
    and painting the entire Christian community with the actions of two men. So,
    Zakkie...have I defrauded anyone? Have I hired prostitutes to dance around
    to get my rocks off? Have I frolicked around steam rooms with other men? It
    sure seems like you are attempting to imply that, by being a Christian, I am
    supposed to bear the sins of other terribly misguided individuals. Keating
    and Swaggart, as self-righteous as they wish to be, have not been following
    Biblical principals in their lives. Keating should read Proverbs 11:1.
    Swaggart needed to put 1 Corinthians 6:13b,15-16 into action in his life.
    Bakker, I'm sure, knew about Romans 1:26-32.

    Message: 62154
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak II
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:16:48

    Sure, you are going to find some self-righteous people who claim to be
    Christians. There are those Christians who become so self-righteous, they
    forget just who is really in authority. But I regret your taking two people
    and presenting them as the lump sum of Christians. It's really easy to take
    the title "Christian," but it's a lot harder to live up to the name. I'm not
    about to back up the actions of Swaggart OR Keating. I'm not saying that I
    hate them, but I AM saying that I hate the things that they have done, and
    have been doing. It makes things bad not only for them, but for other
    honest, well intentioned, faith-walking Christians. It gives atheists and
    other Christian-bashers plenty of ammunition to lob at those believers in
    Christ that have done nothing wrong. We're not nieve, we are forewarned
    that things such as this will happen, and that people will bear false
    testimony against us.

    If a person is a true Christian, he will refrain from the actions of the
    Swaggarts, Bakkers, and Keatings of the world...for we know that if we stoop
    to their levels while hiding behind the name of Christ...we're going to have
    to answer to a much higher authority. And the term "payback is a bitch"
    takes on a whole new meaning! (Matthew 10:24-26).

    Message: 62155
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/More Porn
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:19:50

    Yes, Zak, but we see how much porn gets into the hands of children...whether
    the parents know about it or not! And, to teach a child healthy sexual
    attitudes, and then hand him pornography the child is considered "mature"
    enough, is actually giving the child two completely opposing sets of values.
    And that's poor parenting.

    Message: 62156
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Tape Deck
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:21:08

    I have an Akai single-bay cassette component deck I'd be willing to sell you
    cheap. The pause key doesn't always work real well, but other than that, the
    thing records and plays back like a charm.

    Message: 62157
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Porn (What Else?
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:27:40

    "Pornography doesn't pervert people.

    People pervert people."

    People are involved in the creation of pornography.

    Pornography is a vehicle, used by people, to alter standards of sexual
    behavior.

    Pornography doesn't create itself.

    It takes people.

    And as you said, people pervert people.

    Pornography is not the only means, either. Soldier of Fortune, Fangoria,
    True Detective are all perverse in their own sense.

    Which, in a sense, makes them pornography.

    Created by people.

    To pervert other people.

    Message: 62158
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Nativity
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:33:39

       Cliff, even though a nativity scene means nothing more than a man, a
    woman, and a kid in a feed trough to an atheist, there is something about it
    that fills them with hatred. And we should not be surprised about this.
    Those who hate the concept of Christianity the most are those who understand
    it the least (and furthermore make no effort to understand it). I heard one
    of KFYI's Christian-bashers making the silly comment of how incensed
    Christians would be if there was a government-sponsored statue of David and
    Goliath. Apparently, he doesn't know that the story of David and Goliath is
    taught to Christian children quite early on, as a testament to God's
    providence in the face of adversity. The heritage of our belief, as well as
    our Messiah, stem from Jewish origins.

    Message: 62159
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak/Displays
    Date: 12/26/89  Time: 23:38:41

    I don't feel that any one symbol should predominate any display on public
    property. I have no problem with Hannukah displays. It should be noted,
    however, that to the Jewish people, the celebration of Hannukah is not as
    important in the Jewish schedule of holidays, as Christmas is to Christians.
    I do not mean to say that a Nativity is any more important a display on
    public property as would be a Menorah or Star of David. Just noting that
    Hannukah is not the a big whiz-bang celebration like Christmas is. There are
    other Jewish holidays that are more important to the Jewish people.

    Message: 62160
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 01:12:42

    I've called you worse names than "weenie"?  When was this?  Oh yes, I think
    I did refer to you as a  in the RGB sig.
         I was profane in one of my messages to Mike Carter.  I said $#!+.  It
    was in quotes, though, so it doesn't really count.
         Don't you love the way Cliff turned what started out as non-hostile
    discussion of the Panama situation into an attack on your smoking habit?

    Message: 62161
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 01:15:10

         You sure are prolific.
         So, your position is that "pornography in any degree is wrong."
    I think it might be best if we get a solid definition of pornography.  There
    is soft-core pornography, you know, and I assume that you consider this
    wrong also.  An example of soft-core pornography might be a movie like 9 1/2
    weeks, where unusual sexual acts were shown with a minimum of context.  What
    else?  Playboy, obviously.  What about photographs of women in lingerie?
    Where do you think the line should be drawn?
         I disagree that something must "shed light" on reality for it to have
    the right to exist.  I don't think we should outlaw bad poetry, for example.
    Soldier of Fortune, Fangoria, True Detective...not to mention romance
    novels...none of these things shed much light on life.  But somebody out
    there enjoys them.
         I'm sure you know about the LAPS test for obscenity.  The only problem
    I see with it is that it gives somebody somewhere the right to decide what
    does and does not have artistic value.  Censorship sucks.  You may think
    that pornography is rotten; somebody else might think it's fascinating.
    Just because you don't like it, why do you want to take it away from
    others?
         I think you're way off the track when you say that pornography is "a
    vehicle to alter standards of sexual behavior."  People who make porn aren't
    setting out to "alter standards."  They're more likely setting out to make
    money.  Supply and demand.  People whose standards are already "altered" are
    keeping porn producers in business, not the other way around.

    Message: 62162
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl2
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 02:12:49

         You say that pornography gets into the hands of children very often.
    Please elaborate.  Is this something you say out of experience--do you think
    your father should have found a better place to hide his stash?  Do you
    think it's safe to say that it's the responsibility of adults to keep their
    children away from things that are potentially harmful?  Poisonous
    substances, medication, alcohol, guns...pornography...if a parent is giving
    his children easy access to these things, then as you said, it's bad
    parenting.

         You're wrong about my intentions in my one message about Swaggart and
    Keating.  I wasn't trying to "paint the entire Christian community with the
    actions of 2 men," or to imply that you are "supposed to bear the sins of
    other...individuals."  I wanted to show examples of self-righteous people
    who were themselves corrupt.  In this case, they were Christians.  Atheists
    are not exempt from hypocrisy, either, and I'm sure you can find examples of
    a few atheists who did bad things.  I resent it when Christians paint
    atheists as immoral, when I know plenty of atheists who are very
    conscientious and concerned about whether or not their actions are ethical.
    I think any attempt to lump a group of people, without good reason, is
    ill-founded.  My message was more a respnse to Cliff telling me that because
    I was arguing in defense of pornography, I am therefore an immoral
    individual.  But that's another story.  In any case, don't think I'm trying
    to say EVERY Christian is this, when I only spoke of two people.  If I mean
    "all," I'll use the word "all."

    Message: 62163
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl3
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 02:20:13

         You really shouldn't think you know so much about what goes on in other
    people's minds.  When you say the "nativity scene fills [non-Christians]
    with hatred," you're just plain wrong.  When I look at a nativity scene, in
    my mind, I say, "Oh, a nativity scene," and that's about it.  There's no
    anger there.  Supposing it were on public property, and paid for by the
    government, I'd be concerned, because that goes against our laws.  In
    separating church and state, our government has the responsibility to avoid
    showing any kind of favortism to any religion.
         In any case, don't assume that all atheists/agnostics/non-Christians
    have anger toward Christians.  Some do; not all.  I do get angry at
    Christians who tell me I'm "bad" or that I'm going to hell.  But some of my
    best friends are Christians, and I have a lot of respect for them.

         You didn't answer my question about what you'd do if you met someone
    who was a crack user.

    Message: 62164
    Author: Phil McLellan
    Category: For sale
    Subject: PRINTER
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 06:57:30

                      DIGITAL, Wide Carriage, 9 pin Dot Matrix Printer

                      Model # LA-210-A, Serial, with Cables

                      2K Buffer, Letter/Draft Modes with Modem Ports

                      Several Fonts.  Good Operating Condition

                      Sell for $250. or Best Offer.

                      Will consider trade for a printer that

                      interfaces with my Apple 2C.

                      No reasonable offer refused.

                      Contact Phil, 244-8099, Mon.-Sat. 9-5