### Apollo BBS Archive - November 29 - 30, 1991

    Mail from Zak Woodruff
    Date: 11/29/91  Ti[K 08:14:27

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Does Cliff censor?
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

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     1:You want me to answer that in mail?
     2:
     3:end

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    Message: 8711
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Question?
    Subject: bill burkett
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:18:27

    What is a "cub sysop"? Can I be an eagle sysop?

    Message: 8712
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Joe - F  A  T
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:45:14

    > If you used to have 4 enchiladas with cheese, just cut back to
    > 2 or even better just one.

            Understood.  I was trying to make fun of my apparent inability to
    translate what I understand intellectually into action.
            One thing I don't understand, however, is determining how much fat
    is "okay."
            For example, I've heard that the amount of fat in a food should be
    "no more 10% (I think) of total calories."
            Does this mean that if a container says a product has 100 calories
    and 8 grams of fat per serving that it's okay?  And how is this arrived at?
    8 grams/100 calories = .08 grams/calorie = 8% fat per serving?
            Seems like comparing apples and oranges.

    Message: 8713
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: Zak-Cubbing Around
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:45:35

    > What is a "cub sysop"?

    I am.

    It's a long story, but, essentially, I help Cliff monitor Apollo for stuff
    that violates the [R]ules.

    >Can I be an eagle sysop?

    No, but you can be my little brownie.

    Message: 8714
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: Shoot out
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:48:58

    Hey, what happen to all the talk about setting a date for a shoot out GT?
    Cliff, where are you?  Sandy?

    Speaking about shooting, I took the kids over to Shooters World today.  We
    were watching the shooters while waiting for a lane.  You could hear all the
    firing through the windows, but there was this one Boom! Boom!  We spotted
    this petite lady about 35 shooting a gun about as big as she was.  I don't
    know what it was, but it looked like a 44 mag of somekind.  It sure got a
    lot of peoples attention.  You should have seen the flames coming out of
    that gun when she fired it.  The kids quickly nick named her "Dirty
    Harriette!"  HA!

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

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    Subject:FAT

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     1:The rule of thumb is:  If it tastes delicious then don't eat it.
     2:
     3:A Burger King double Whopper with cheese has 14 teaspoons of fat and
     4:contains 1000 calories.
     5:
     6:If you want to take a trip to hell then eat one.
     7:end

    Edit command:C

     7:Even the Iceberg lettuce is trash.
     8:end

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    Message: 5166
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Rod on Elvis
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:21:24

    Them digging up Elvis to find out if he had AIDS was a joke on your part -
    but truth! They've been trying to find an excuse to dig him up for years and
    there is only one reason why.... to satisfy the media! Just think about the
    pictures of his decayed body - all the gorey details of the autopsy! Why
    that all would be good for years and years. It would be on the front page of
    those noted rags - the Enquirer, The Globe, The Star!! We'd all just clammer
    for a glimpse of his dust! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 5167
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Noted rags
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:41:14

    Aren't those your favorite papers?  Don't you pick them up each week at the
    grocery store?

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    Subject:Elvis

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     1:He was pumped so full of toxic fluid that he probably has the same smile the
     2:mortician gave him.
     3:
     4:I believe that we should dig all these potentially harmful people up, put
     5:them in 55 gallon drums and keep them deep in a salt mine.  At least they
     6:won't be harming the environment for a while.
     7:end

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    Message: 1980
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dog on books
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:23:35

    If you were addressing me - I have never read a Harlequin romance novel in
    my life. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 1981
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann's reading
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:44:44

    Jacqueline Suzanne? (not sure how to spell her name)

    Message: 1982
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dog on books
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 12:31:09

    I read Valley of the Dolls by Suzanne years ago. But in general, I don't
    read trash. -=*) ANN (*=-
    What is your point your trying to make - that I read junk? If so, you don't
    know me.

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    Message: 2093
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Insomniac & inspired
    Subject: Deep Thoughts
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:51:16

    I remember watching this PBS special about the brain.  There was this man
    that was a brilliant pianist, a virtuoso, and just very intelligent in
    general.  Then, one day, his brain "snapped".  He only has very short term
    memory.  Short as in about 20 seconds or so. He can remember past events up
    until the time his brain short circuited but after that, he's living every
    new minute with no recollection of the past one.  They showed a time when
    his wife came to visit him in some sort of hospital or evaluation center.
    Every 15 seconds or so, he would exclaim "Oh!  It's so good to see you
    again.  I've missed you so much.  Why haven't you come to see me?  OH, I
    love you..." and things such as that.  He was holding her face in his hands
    and you could tell when he was in a new present because of the look of
    surprize and love and sadness all in one that would take over his face.  It
    was so sweet and so sad.  He felt so happy to see her and yet couldn't
    retain a whole conversation or, hell, a whole sentence.  I can't imagine how
    hard it would have been to leave him during such visits.  He'd be thinking
    you just showed up and then were leaving.  That'd be so sad.  But in the
    next moment, he'd have no memory of the whole thing.
    Can you imagine being loved so wholly, so completely, every minute of the
    day?  That someone would be as faithful and excited as a dog to see you
    every 15 seconds?  That would get intense.

    Message: 2094
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Insomniac & inspired
    Subject: Deeper Thoughts
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:52:36

    It must be really intense to make love to someone with that sort of mind.
    Every touch would be a new beginning.  Would he be able to get a hard on?
    Would he suddenly freak out that you were fucking?  And what would he do if
    he would start to go down on you and then wake up with a mouth full of
    pussy?  Scream?  Bite? Think he had just started?  That would be a great way
    to get head for hours.  And what about his orgasms?  Would they last as long
    as his memory or longer?  And if orgasm happens partly in the brain, then
    would his brain just keep going through the same experience over and over,
    like a record skipping?  Probably they aren't allowed to engage in sex. As
    much as I can recollect, the doctors don't have any idea what happened to
    this guy and don't think he will ever recover to his previous state. The
    mind is an amazing thing.

    Message: 2095
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: the SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Last..
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 09:05:56

            This is NOT an X-Rated SIG...  Every $tatus user belongs here, even
    the ones who do not like profanity.

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    Subject:Melissa

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     1:I think Cliff has a point.
     2:
     3:On another hand, just imagine trying to type a message on Apollo during
     4:these 'mind snaps'.  It would take forever just to read one.
     5:end

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    Message: 1551
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: See-Dee
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 08:04:41

    Don't you hate it when parts won't move without lubrication?
         I'm sure you've already heard the joke about Freddie Mercury and
    "another one bites the dust." (it's a terrible joke, but somebody's got to
    tell it.)
         What is the cool new music that everybody's listening to? I am stilll
    waiting for something exciting to come along, but good music is such a
    rarity nowadays. I think I'll go pick up the new Yanni disk.
         What happened to Rush? Are they all on quaaludes? What ever happened to
    groovy double-bums that were "conceptual" and had 12 minute songs? Those
    were the good old days.

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    Subject:Zak, the new music

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     1:Crash Worship.  Need I say more?
     2:
     3:Eighty-five per-cent of my CD collection are songs of the sixties.  Ten
     4:per-cent are classical and the remainder are industrial.
     5:
     6:end

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    Message: 80087
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter/welfare
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 05:37:53

     Those are good ideas, Peter, and they should be adopted. I would even go
    one step further, and require any and all able-bodied recipient to show
    regular efforts to do whatever it takes in each individual circumstance tp
    get off the welfare rolls ASAP. In the case of people whose jobs have been
    eliminated due to automation, lack of military spending, or whatever,
    retraining in another productive area would be a must.
     THis mentality of "if welfare was good enough for daddy it's good enough
    for mw" has got to stop, and now!

    Message: 80088
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green on polio
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 08:44:16

    You misunderstood me - I know we were told about polio, but I still feel it
    is a little different than telling children about AIDS in detail. Besides,
    we did not really get a graphic explaination about polio either. No one did.
    We knew it paralized and was painful and that some people could end up in an
    iron lung.
    BUT - that was something to panic about. At the time is was a disease that
    was uncontroled. You could do everything you could to prevent getting it and
    still get it. Not so with AIDS. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80089
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green on testing
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 08:46:31

    You know, you may have said ... "If I want to get married should I insist my
    partner get tested for AIDS ...?" in jest - but that could become a reality.
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80090
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dee on smoking
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:01:12

    Sorry Melissa, you can't use that with me - I don't smoke. But forget cancer
    then - let talk heart disease!! There was some AIDS statistics in the paper
    this morning coming from The World Health Organization .....

    9 - 10 million world wide has been infected with HIV and 1.5 million have
    contacted AIDS
    7 million of those are in Africa!
    American has 200,00 reported full AIDS cases.

    Do you know how many people world wide and in this country die from heart
    disease? We're talking countless of millions - not a paltry 9 -10 world
    wide. Do you know how many have heart disease? I just don't feel that we
    should pull off any monies or work away from disease like that to find a
    cure for a disease that can be helped if not stopped by the people
    themselves. I do believe that money should be spent on education as with any
    contacted disease. I also believe in benefits and that money spent towards
    the cure, but not take money from other diseases. I also believe that AIDS
    should not be the disease in the 'top of the limelight'! There isn't one day
    that goes by that it isn't written about and it usually appears on the front
    page. But that's to be expected - it's a sexual disease and it's a fad right
    now! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80091
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick #80056
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:08:42

    Well then, we do not disagree at all. I too think that eleven or twelve
    would be a more appropriate time to educate children although, I find that
    sad that we have to even then. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80092
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred on horney
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:10:19

    One would think that the scare of AIDS would remedy 'horniness' pretty fast.
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80093
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cat on dying
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:11:38

    I would also like to die of old age in my sleep. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80094
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zakey Baby ..
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:13:39

    ... are you back for awhile? I hope so. You still need musical instructions
    I'm sure! :-) -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80095
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pederast
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:33:42

    Read 80020 again.  I think I made it quite clear.

    Message: 80096
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/smoking
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 09:39:55

    How conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient.  She's taking a temporary break from smoking,
    and she's able to say "I don't smoke" when confronted with cancer as a
    possible result of questionable behavior.  Behavior which she has defended
    rigorously.

    Message: 80097
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: War!
    Subject: MR Dog!
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 10:16:42

            If Annie has quit smoking (even if you think temporary), she should
    be commended...for what ever her reason was/is.   Congrats Annie!

            I too have to agree with Ann...  To pull people off 'Cancer' or
    'Heart disease' and put them on 'AIDS' research is really dumb.  I am not
    suggesting that AIDS be ignored, but let's get a grip on the real numbers
    involved here.  Heart disease and Cancer victims far outnumber AIDS
    casualties.  Only the media has you worked up into a frenzy trying to
    convince the public it is not a GAY disease.  From what I see, it is a GAY
    disease with a small number of freak accidents.   The blood supply was one
    such problem, but with the new knowledge, I feel it is becoming less likely
    that this problem will continue.  As for some of the other problems like
    sharing 'drug needles'... stupidity 'two-fold' seems to play out here.
    Unsafe sex with multple partners with whom you really don't know anything
    about also seems rather 'STUPID' to me.  Yet, there will be some fool out
    there who will come down on us who are faithful to 'ONE'.

            If you want to play... You pay!  I for one, would rather see other
    killer diseases conquered that are more likely to affect me!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- winters- kolostow

    Message: 80098
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Polio
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 10:27:13

    You have missed my point. My point wasn't to argue the relative horror of
    AIDS versus polio, but the statement you made concerning children being
    allowed to be children without concern for "horrors." My point was to show
    circumstances in my past that were considered as horrible as AIDS is today.
    I believe that knowledge is always better than ignorance.

    Message: 80099
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peter
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 17:04:33

    Re:  Do we really have the time to rehash the past?

    Those who refuse to rehash the past are doomed to repeat it.

    Message: 80100
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peter
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 17:09:27

    Re:  I'd go so far as to say any able-bodied welfare recipient should be
    required to perform volunteer work for so many hours per week.

    Peter, what are you saying?  Don't you know that "able-bodied welfare
    recipients" are what they are because they refuse to work.  What you suggest
    is sort of an oxymoron.

    Message: 80101
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 19:47:48

    Yes, the number one cause of death in the United States is heart disease.
    And, the number one cause of heart disease in the US is SMOKING.

    Message: 80102
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 19:49:18

    So what if "you smoke, you pay"?

    Message: 80103
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archimedes's book
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:17:25

    It is interesting. It's too bad he doesn't cite his sources.

    Message: 80104
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Death
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:56:39

    Hummm.  I think dying in my sleep would be sad because then I wouldn't be
    able to say good-bye to everyone.  If I knew I was going to die on a certain
    day, I could prepare for it, handle my affairs (no pun intended), and then
    go to sleep and die peacefully.  But life and death don't usually work that
    way.
    I know I would definitely NOT like to die by fire or by drowning, any sort
    of suffication.  I guess for me the best case scenerio is one in which I
    am forewarned of the date.

    Message: 80105
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Welfare
    Date: 11/29/91  Time: 23:59:26

    I agree that I would like to see welfare recepients do something for their
    work.  Not so much because I want them to work for their money, but that I
    think that being productive can really change a persons perspective and help
    raise self-esteem.  That in itself could be the way to get people skills and
    modivation to get off of welfare.

    Providing child care for mother's with children would still be something to
    deal with.

    Message: 80106
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Westlaw
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:30:22

    GL> WESTLAW. This conjures up Yul Brynner. Wait a minute. That's WestWorld.
    GL> What are the access charges and fees ? Is there a number to call ?

    Ah, Westworld.  That was potentially *such* a good movie, ruined by
    movie-makers who knew nothing about the technology and didn't bother to ask
    anyone who did.  Oh, well.

    Mmm?  Oh.  I don't remember the access charges and fees exactly, except that
    they were high -- but then the system is designed for use by lawyers, so
    base a guess on that.  It seems to me it was around 120 frns a month plus
    on-line charges, and that was five years ago.  Westlaw is the company which
    publishes most of the law books available; United States Code Annotated,
    United States Code Service, etc.  They are the biggest.  Suggest you call
    your friendly law librarian and ask for an address, then you can check
    telephone information in that city.

    Good luck.  I wish I could afford it.  I *really* wish I could afford it.
    We'd be ten or twenty years ahead in our fight now if Westlaw had been
    accessible to us.

    Message: 80107
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Lender
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:31:06

    GL> re: lending money.
    GL> That' why interest rates went out of sight when the inflation rate was
    GL> roaring away in the 'teens. Over the long run, however, the borrower
    GL> usually wins. That's why bond holders are generally losers.

    That's an illusion.  The borrower never wins, because he cannot acquire
    ownership over his wealth.  'The borrower is the servant of the lender.'

    Message: 80108
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Total owed
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:32:08

    BD> It seems to me that you are the victim of a cruel hoax.  If you give me
    BD> a note, intending to later "demand payment", and these notes are
    BD> negotiable, then I can give the note to someone else, I can fail to
    BD> present it, I can even *destroy* the note.  How ar to get your payment?

    We are all victims of this cruel hoax.  However, your suggestion does have
    some limited merit.  We (the people) could do a Boston Tea Party with the
    notes.  That would eventually get their attention.  Though I doubt most
    people will until they finally recognize them as worthless.

    But actually it wouldn't matter.  We don't owe them the paper federal
    reserve note.  By the act of them printing the paper federal reserve note,
    we owe them a dollar as defined by law, which is 25.8 grains of gold or
    371.25 grains of silver.  They'd collect even if we destroyed every frn in
    existance -- they would collect *more* than one dollar for every 'one
    dollar' frn in existence, because they've never printed the frns with which
    to pay the interest.

    At last count, the total owed these 'legal' con artists added up to the
    total 'value' of the entire land mass of the United States and all U.S.
    possessions, all structures built thereon, all manufactured property of any
    kind, plus the total 1987 gross national product every year for the next 130
    years.  Plus or minus a few shekels.

    Message: 80109
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: KFYI
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:32:43

    BD> P.S. Did someone in your group call John Dayl on KFYI yesterday
    BD> afternoon?

    I wouldn't have a clue.  Some of us do call occasionally, either Mohan or
    Dale (is it spelled 'Dayl'?), but I wasn't listening that afternoon.

    Message: 80110
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cash-hard money
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:33:41

    FS> The fact remains that there is no way our economy could function on a
    FS> "cash" "hard money" basis.

    Granted.  However, there is also no way our economy will function much
    longer on a worthless paper basis.

    I spoke of wire transfers, notes, checks, etc. because of the problem you
    are undoubtedly alluding to; i.e., we couldn't get cash money across the
    country or around the world fast enough.  However, that problem of a stable
    money supply could be overcome easily by, as I said, the paper being backed
    to the penny by substance of intrinsic value.

    FS> That is just another way of useing notes and checks.

    No, that is *not* "just another way" of using notes and checks.  It is the
    *only* way to use notes and checks (and electronic transfers, etc.) that
    stands half a chance of not robbing the people blind and destroying our
    economy in the process.

    Message: 80111
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Fractional Reserve
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:34:45

    FS> As to the fractional reserve business, I agree with you that that is
    FS> one of the things that lead to problems.  But, when you get right down
    FS> to it, there really isn't much difference between managing the economy
    FS> thru a fractional reserve system that controlls the value of money and
    FS> a gold standard that can be, and periodically must be, changed to
    FS> controll the value of money.

    Now, wait a minute.  "Fractional reserve" has nothing to do with controlling
    the value of money (other than being one of the strongest inflationary
    pressures in existence; i.e., it depresses the value of money and therefore
    the value of our labor).  Fractional reserve has to do with banks taking in
    'x' amount of money in deposits and having available, for lending, '9,000x'
    amount of money.  This is equivalent to check kiting; the bank simply
    'creates,' out of thin air, the money it lends.  It creates it with a
    bookkeeping entry.  And when the kites catch up with the bank, the bank goes
    broke, the gov't regulators step in and bail it out at horrendous cost to
    the taxpayers (further damaging the economy), and allow the bank to simply
    be 'absorbed' by a bigger bank (thus exacerbating the trend away from
    community banks responsive to their customers and toward multinational
    mega-corporations responsive to no one).

    And in the process of 'creating' this money out of thin air with a
    bookkeeping entry, it tacks on usury -- requiring the borrower to pay back

    Message: 80112
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Gold change?
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:36:19

    more money in labor than he received in paper.  Thus the Federal Reserve
    Bank scam is repeated at every bank in the country: it costs them nothing to
    acquire your wealth.

    Now then, to your other supposition:  "a gold standard that can be, and
    periodically must be, changed to control the value of money."  Why do you
    assume this?  The gold/silver standard has never been changed since our
    country was founded (though it has been ignored since 1934 and 1964), and
    the *value of that money* in terms of its purchasing power changed less than
    one percent during the entire period from the ratification of our
    Constitution to 1913.  As I have pointed out before, the *value of paper
    money* changed more than that during the first three weeks of October 1979!

    Furthermore, during that entire period of time, we had seven 'recessions'
    forced upon us by those who sought control of our economy, but they did not
    gain control, our money remained sound and lost no value, and we had no
    depressions at all.  By contrast we had a major depression forced upon us
    within 16 years of allowing a private foreign-owned corporation (the FED) to
    control our economy, and we've had increasingly severe cycles of boom and
    recession ever since.  We are currently suffering under the latest and most
    severe, and if it does not slide into the *last* and *final* one, then the
    next one (which will arrive quicker than the last) *will* be final.

    Message: 80113
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: History
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:37:11

    History reveals the error of your paper money philosophy.  It has done so
    dozens of times, but people always forget and allow themselves to be
    suckered one more time.  As someone here just said a few messages ago:
    "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

    [By the way:  I commend to all of you the editorial in the Arizona Republic
    Thanksgiving Day.  It is quoted from the journal of William Bradford,
    Governor of the Massachusetts Colony, circa 1623.  From it I'm sure you will
    all conclude that Karl Marx was a sophomoric dummy-come-lately -- Plato
    thought of Communism first, and the colonists tried it in the New World.  It
    didn't work in 1623, either, and for the same reasons that it doesn't work
    today and never will work in the future.]

    Message: 80114
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Not equal
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:38:41

    FS> Your position seems to be that the gold standard would somehow keep the
    FS> gvt under control.  I just don't see that since the gvt is the one who
    FS> controlls the gold standard.  For the gold standard to be IN CONTROL
    FS> then the valuation of gold would have to be taken out of the hands of
    FS> the US gvt and put in the hands of a WORLD GVT.

    The purpose of the Constitution of the United States was and is to KEEP
    GOVERNMENT UNDER CONTROL.  (There are those who ignorantly or by malicious
    intent argue otherwise, but this fact is beyond dispute from the writings of
    the founders themselves.)  It was the specific and argued position of the
    framers of the Constitution that the gold (and silver) standard was intended
    to keep the government under control (and crush paper money once and for
    all, along with its hidden robbery of the wealth and political clout of the
    people).  And, I have to add, it did so quite admirably for approximately a
    hundred and twenty years.

    The problem here is that you equate gold and silver and paper as equals,
    both in their value as a medium of exchange and in their susceptibility to
    manipulation.  They are not.  Gold and silver, once in regular use, have an
    intrinsic value among the people which makes it extremely difficult for
    government or the banks to manipulate to their own profit.  Paper has no
    intrinsic value to the people, and thus lends itself (nay, positively
    demands!) manipulation of its value to the profit of criminal banksters.

    Message: 80115
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Inflation
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:39:40

    [And just so I won't be mistaken: no, I am not in favor of a World Gov't to
    control all the money or for any other purpose.  However, paper money favors
    a world gov't, whereas a monetary standard of gold and silver coin, the
    value of which cannot be fluctuated at will by gov't at any level, precludes
    the possibility of any 'NEW WORLD ORDER' existing with enough economic clout
    to successfully oppress anyone.]

    RE: Your message #80061, Fred, since if I quote it there's no room left.

    You at least have done your homework on the cause -- the *only* cause -- of
    monetary inflation:  the money supply exceeding the actual wealth of the
    nation.  That is another value of a monetary standard of intrinsic value:
    the money supply cannot exceed the actual wealth of the nation.  There may
    be times that the wealth of a given community exceeds the money supply, but
    then it is easy to overcome that by exporting their wealth for profit.

    However, you did goof on one extremely important point:  The government does
    not print frns and 'sell' them to the FED (Federal Reserve Bank) according
    to the gov't's perception of the needs of the economy.  The FED does it all.
     The FED autonomously makes the economic decisions, prints or doesn't print
    the frns, and whatever it decides to do, the gov't is responsible for
    payment to the FED of one dollar in gold/silver *plus interest* for every
    frn printed.  [Gov't may do the printing; but it does

    Message: 80116
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: The Shaft
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:40:29

    so per FED instructions, not gov't instructions.]

    The FED (Federal Reserve Bank) is a privately-owned international
    corporation, the majority of shares of which are owned by foreign interests
    -- primarily the banking and finance cartel based in the London downtown
    city-state.  And in contrast with our gov't's rip-off of the American
    people, international payments are still made in gold.  They get the gold;
    we get the paper.  And the shaft.

    Message: 80117
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Dishonesty
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:41:57

    FS> My labor is not worth less and less and less unless my wage inflation
    FS> fails to keep up with my money deflation.  It is only a ripoff if I'm
    FS> on the wrong side of things.  For some situations the kind of inflation
    FS> you decry is wonderful - i.e. you own REAL goods that generate REAL
    FS> wealth.

    I don't agree.  When you are on the "wrong side," as you put it (which is
    98% of the time), you are being ripped off by the bankers and the gov't.
    When you are on the "right side," you are profiting from their rip-off of
    others.  Some people like this system for that reason: it offers them the
    opportunity of joining the system and ripping off everyone else to their own
    benefit.  These people operate according to two rules:  1.  Never use your
    own money for anything.  2.  Never give anything away.

    Thank you, but since those are the only two 'sides' available under this
    system, I will continue to advocate returning to an honest system.

    And you don't own REAL goods that generate REAL wealth.  You can't *own*
    anything unless you pay for it with something of real value.  Gov't may look
    upon you with a glow of beneficience so long as you are helping to further
    gov't and banker totalitarian goals, but try standing up for principle and
    see how long you 'own' anything of 'REAL' value.

    Message: 80118
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Wrong
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:42:56

    FS> What makes you think a gold coin's value cannot be easily manipulated?
    FS> ALl the gvt has to do is change the defined value of it.

    No.  When gov't attempts to do so, it doesn't work.  It continues to be
    traded at the original value.  Gov't damages only itself by such attempts.
    This has never failed to be true down through history since Biblical times.
    And this is precisely why the banksters and financiers and money
    lenders/manipulators ALWAYS try their damndest to drive a wedge into any
    system based upon intrinsic value.  In our country they succeeded, and look
    at the mess we're in.  In every other country of the world with the
    exception of Lebanon and South Africa, they succeeded.  And in those two
    countries their destabilization efforts have all but destroyed the country
    physically since they could not have it economically.

    Message: 80119
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Deflation?!!
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:43:51

    FS> For one thing, regardless of the medium of exchange, a sale now in
    FS> exchange for a note ALWAYS carries with it the risk of inflation as
    FS> well as the potential of DEFLATION.

    Seriously, Fred, how often has the potential of deflation been present in
    our history?  You are presenting these two possibilities as though they were
    statistically equal, and you know they are not.  They MAY be about equal
    right now because of the mess paper money has led us into, but in the long
    term the liklihood of deflation in real estate has been nil.  Right now we
    are in a 'correction period,' and if we refuse to learn from it and change
    what we are doing wrong we are going to pay an even heavier price next time.

    Besides, you are flat wrong when you say "regardless of the medium of
    exchange ...":  With the gold and silver standard established by the U.S.
    Constitution and by the founding fathers pursuant to the U.S. Constitution,
    there was no inflation for a hundred and twenty years.  If a property
    increased in cost in a period of time, it was because a town grew out to
    encompass it.  Properties rarely decreased in value; towns only rarely moved
    away (comparatively speaking).

    Message: 80120
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Blame
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:44:57

    FS> You are still blaming the money for the failures of our leaders.

    Fred, you've made that statement in every alternate message since we started
    on this topic.  I'm getting a little tired of it.  I am *not* blaming the
    money for the failures of our leaders.  There is no possible way this paper
    monetary system *could* work without ripping off the people and the nation;
    it has never worked in all of recorded history and it has ALWAYS resulted in
    the economic destruction of the society using it, and those gov't leaders
    who stand by this system DAMNED WELL KNOW IT.  I do blame them, but I must
    first reveal the depth and depravity of their crime.  We are still
    discussing the money because you are still asserting that paper or tobacco
    or apples or whatever is just as good a medium of exchange as gold and
    silver, and from a historical perspective that assertion is absolutely
    ludicrous.

    Message: 80121
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Fair?
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:46:12

    FS> If you are so convinced that the gvt is going to pass a "GOLD STANDARD"
    FS> and then actaully stick to the established value and not monkey with
    FS> it, why would you want a GOLD standard, a standard that is inherently
    FS> unfair since it rewards those who happen to own gold mines.

    It is no more "inherently unfair" than robbing people of their investments
    and savings in gold and silver and giving them worthless paper in return,
    which is what they did in 1934 with gold and in 1964 with silver.  I
    consider it much more fair, since people would then have the opportunity to
    earn wages of gold and silver; the economy would take off; there would be
    jobs for anyone willing to work, there would be no government-sanctioned
    robbery of the fruits of their labor and no need of it, there would be a
    return of charity by grace to those who truly deserved it instead of charity
    by criminal penalty, and those who prey upon the bleeding hearts of
    unprincipled politicians for their daily bread would have to go out and earn
    it -- and might gain some self-respect and honor in the process.

    There would also be a cessation of foreign aid payments to countries who
    oppose us in every way possible, and a return to national honor and
    integrity and -- most importantly, to my mind -- the people would regain the
    economic clout to control government instead of being controlled by
    government.

    Message: 80122
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Counterfeits
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:47:27

    FS> After all, your gold coins would not be non-counterfeitable since they
    FS> could easily be alloyed down, sandwiched, etc and to protect oneself
    FS> you would have to determine the density of every coin you took in
    FS> payment, hardly are reasonable way to do business.

    Sorry, that doesn't work.  Oh, I'm sure it would happen; it *did* happen on
    occasion when gold and silver coins were in circulation -- whereupon the
    newspapers would publish tongue in cheek articles about "dumb crooks" who
    spent more money counterfeiting gold or silver coins than they would have if
    they had just used the real ones.  But it didn't happen often enough, in an
    undetectable manner, to be a serious concern.

    I would rather do business with gold and silver coin even if I had to go to
    considerable lengths to determine the legitimacy of the coins, than I would
    with a medium of exchange I *know* to be inherently worthless and a fraud
    perpetrated both upon me and upon my customers.  But I would not have to go
    to great lengths; it rapidly becomes very easy to judge the size of a coin
    relative to its weight, which constitutes its density, and it is very easy
    to judge its hardness.  People did it for 120 years with very, very few
    problems.

    Message: 80123
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Solution
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:48:16

    RE:  Notes/checks, etc., 'backed' by gold/silver.

    You have a point; this is a real problem.  Yet, as you say, today's
    fast-paced economy could not survive on a hard money that had to be
    transported across country in a hurry.

    I have it:  Since the bankers/financiers/big businessmen like frns so much,
    let THEM use them.  Just have a law requiring that real people be paid in
    real money.  Simple and effective solution.

    Message: 80124
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Too late
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:49:38

    FS> That is not a criticism or attack on you just a statment of my reading
    FS> of what you are saying.  I'm sure the MANY people feel the same about
    FS> some of what I post!

    My name is not Matlock or Adkins; I do not feel threatened because someone
    disagrees with me.  Besides, I don't think any effort to do anything about
    it would accomplish anything anyway, at this late date.  I hate to be a
    prophet of gloom and doom, but I think we have had it.  It has been too long
    since prudent, principled economic theory was taught in any college
    classroom in the land; these sophomoric know-it-all so-called 'economists'
    are going to go right down the tubes with the rest of us, confidently
    spouting their childish Marxist gibberish until they starve to death or the
    rest of us get sick of it and throw them to the wolves.  Then the cycle will
    start over, beginning from a position of strength based upon intrinsic value
    which will be slowly whittled away by those who know how economic systems
    work and have the lack of scruples to take criminal advantage while
    distracting the guardians of liberty (the people) with pie in the sky.

    Message: 80125
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jury Null
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:50:27

    RE: 'Carried away.'

    You have a point.  I suspect you do have to be circumspect; state your
    position by example rather than by instruction.  Otherwise -- possibly --
    you could be charged with "jury-tampering."  But I'm not at all sure such a
    charge would stick against a juryperson.  I know if it happened to me I'd
    make damned sure it didn't stick!

    Perhaps the proper course would be to set the example, explain the position
    you have and why, and let the others do as they wish.  What you should *not*
    do is tell the others what the law *is*.  You can tell them what *you*
    understand it to be, with the caveat that you are not admitted to the Bar
    and do not give legal advice (like I disclaim all the time, right?).

    This is my opinion based upon my research.  I do not give legal advice.

    Message: 80126
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: MMMmmmm...
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:51:38

    PP> Call me crazy but I'd go so far as to say any able-bodied welfare
    PP> recipient should be required to perform volunteer work for so many
    PP> hours per week.

    It's a great idea if you want to establish the precedent that government can
    tell people what work to perform and where and for how long and for how much
    if they happen to be out of work, like they do in Communist China.

    I think they used to call that slavery here.  In China they call it "doing
    away with middle-class bourgeoisie attitudes."

    Why don't we stop trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just
    stop doing that which is so stupid and counter-productive?  I.e., stop
    giving people money for producing nothing.  Stop allowing those of us who
    are productive and who improve the quality of life to be robbed for their
    efforts for that or any other purpose.

    Message: 80127
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: HIV Test
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:52:49

    JB> RE: "should I insist that my partner gets tested for AIDS with a
    JB> mandatory 6 month waiting priod?"

    JB> Not a bad idea(is this the correct word or is it ideal)! But tought to
    JB> do if you are suppose to trust the person you are going to marry.

    Not tough at all.  You can trust the person 100% and still be aware that he
    or she may not know he or she is infected.  I think love and respect should
    play a larger part in the consideration:  Love and respect requires that you
    not merely trust and believe; it requires that you make damned sure you
    don't infect them with something, whether it is HIV or some other bug.

    If that level of love and respect is not mutually present, then there are no
    grounds to marry.

    Message: 80128
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Old Story 1/2
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:54:07

    RW> It could be the Switchboard of that community.  There could be a big
    RW> kitchen for feeding the children, both large and small.  The mothers
    RW> could take turns teaching the children about life as viewed from their
    RW> personal perspective.  [and etc.]

    Right.  And, uh . . . who is to pay for this "big kitchen," and for the food
    prepared therein, Rod?  Who is to arbitrate when one mother's "personal
    perspective" taught to the children grates against the philosophy of
    another?  And who shall arbitrate when one or more mothers find they need to
    work for a living to pay the rent, leaving the other mothers the burden of
    caring for the children?

    I'm sorry, Rod, but such artificially contrived 'Brotherhood and Sisterhood'
    has never worked for anyone but ants and other insects.  And for them there
    is no brotherhood or sisterhood; it is simply work because the genes say
    work.  I would like to think Mankind somewhat higher evolved than that.

    I commend to your reading, as I mentioned earlier to everyone, the editorial
    in the Arizona Republic on Thanksgiving Day.  The Plymouth Rock Colony found
    that such communal living didn't work; everyone dang near starved to death
    because there is no desire to take on someone else's responsibilities.  It
    was a cockamamie idea when Plato thought of it, when

    Message: 80129
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Old Story 2/2
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 01:55:41

    Hegel thought of it, when the Colonists throught of it, when Marx thought of
    it, when Lenin thought of it, when Roosevelt thought of it -- it is probably
    the oldest cockamamie idea in the history of the world, and they all thought
    they thought of it first.

    People today, most notably University sophomores (wise fools) who think
    they've learned everything there is to learn, are still listening to
    Marxists and Leninists prattle on about this cockamamie idea and they think
    they will be the ones to save the world by putting the idea into practice.
    Of course in practice no one likes it, so then they have to get laws passed
    forcing it on people, and then they have a dictatorship in which no one
    excels at anything and no one produces more than they have to to get by and
    the whole thing eventually comes down around their ears the way it has in
    the Soviet Union.

    The way it is *going* to here within about ten years or so if we don't throw
    the damned Communist apologists out of our government and get back on a
    track based upon individual liberty and individual accountability.

    It would be nice if people could learn from history.  Come to think of it,
    it would be nice if schools would *teach* history instead of pie in the sky
    Communist ideology masquerading as brotherhood and sisterhood and compassion
    for one's fellow human beings.

    Message: 80130
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/AIDS
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 02:46:44

    You'll be damn thankful for AIDS research if you get arthritis when you get
    old.  The immune system is reponsible for several types of arthritis.  AIDS
    research already is providing alot of raw data on the processes involved in
    these debilitating inflammatory diseases.

    Message: 80131
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/AIDS
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 05:46:21

     I think that your reasoning here is just slightly off center, Annie dear.
    You are saying on one hand that AIDS is a disease that can be controlled by
    the people's behaviour, and in that you are absolutely correct. Then you say
    that you don't think that so much should be said about it in the media, that
    it is getting too much attention.
     Did it ever occur to you that the very reason that it is getting so much
    attention is because of the fact that it CAN be controlled by behavioural
    changes? This is exactly why so much emphasis is being placed on safe sex,
    condoms and the like. Perhaps not enough emphasis is being placed on the
    morality of the thing, things such as abstinence, monogamy, etc., but the
    stress against unprotected promiscuity is right on, at least in my opinion.

    Message: 80132
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Death by ?
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 05:53:55

     While it may or may not be unfortunate, we cannot choose the day, hour or
    circumstance of our demise. Speculation can lead to little more than
    depression, since death is one thing we will all face one day. At least the
    cessation of life as we now know it.
     Personally, I would like to live forever, if for no other reason than I can
    hardly wait to see what's going to happen next in a lot of areas. However, I
    do not fear death as some do, but see it as a graduation of sorts, to better
    things. As to the date, time and circumstances, I'll leave that up to God.
    He's the only one who really has to know, since He may need some time to
    clean up my mansion in preparation for my homecoming.

    Message: 80133
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/last
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 06:03:05

    AIDS research is helping arthritis patients?
     I wish they would hurry up and find something to keep my knees from hurting
    most of the time!

    Message: 80134
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Paul & Rod Merge
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:42:40

    Look out folks!  We must surely be in the last days.  Rod and Paul may come
    together in their outlooks on death.

    Message: 80135
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann-Explaining AIDS
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:43:15

    > We tell our children that this disease is mostly contacted by
    > anal intercourse between men...

            Oh, come on, Ann!  Do you mean to tell me that this reporter
    actually said something like, "Tell me, little children:  What exactly is
    anal intercourse?"  Or did he say something more like, "How do you feel
    about Magic Johnson being sick?" and you just assumed that in order to have
    any feelings about Magic's dilemma these children must have been told the
    clinical details of AIDS and HIV.
            I've not heard of any sex education course for young children such
    as you describe that goes into the kind of detail you are decrying.
            And it's not necessary for them to.  Unless the kid asks.  And if he
    or she asks it's probably because the child is ready to know the full truth
    and it's imperative to tell the truth.
            One thing I think we'd probably agree on:  The whole mess of having
    the schools explain this stuff could be avoided if parents would accept the
    responsibility to make explanations themselves and would then follow through
    and do some explaining.

    Message: 80136
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Rod Knows!
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:43:35

    > It is more important to show love and support to a child than
    > to tell them about butt intercourse and how to use a smelly
    > condom.

    Once again, in his own, ridiculous way, Rod speaks the Truth!

    Message: 80137
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch-Bimetalism
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:43:59

    > I haven't explained [why bimetalism is better than
    > monometalism] because, frankly, I don't know the reasons why
    > beyond historical experience.

    You know, one thing I like about this discussion is everyone's willingness
    to admit when they've reached the outer limits of their knowledge.

    This explanation sounds about as plausible as any.

    Message: 80138
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch-The Fed
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:44:16

    > Only they would have the unmitigated gall to give the people an
    > "I.O.U." and demand payment for it, as though it were worth
    > something.

    Once again, I'm afraid I've missed something here.

    How does the Fed get to be both giver and recipient of the same I.O.U.?

    Message: 80139
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paying With Apples
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 08:44:32

    > And he comes to you and says, "here's what I owe you," and he
    > dumps a bushel of apples in your lap.

    Believe it or else, there's a writer on BIX who has been approached by a
    publisher in Russia about the rights to the Russian translation of a book.
    The topic of discussion:  The Russian needs to barter for the rights because
    rubles can't leave Russia.  Last I heard the writer was considering trading
    for some high-quality vacuum tubes used in guitar amplifiers.

    Message: 80140
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog #80096
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 11:43:15

    That was another subject. We are talking about AIDS her Beau, NOT smoking.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80141
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green Lantern
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 11:49:21

    Yes, knowledge is better than ignorance, but I don't think that children
    should be told every little detail. For example, when a child I knew that a
    war was going on - to a degree - but I certainly would not have wanted to
    know all the gorey details. It would have done me more harm than good. Heck,
    my parents didn't even know all the details. As it was, when I found out
    about the bomb at age 9, it scared me out of my wits and I'd worry all the
    time that the world was coming to an end. But just think the worry I'd of
    went through if I knew how deadly that bomb really was! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80142
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on statistic
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 11:54:51

    Re: your statement ... "The number one cause of heart disease in the U.S. is
    SMOKING."
    I want to see proof of that statement because I flat don't believe it!
    Sorry. People die of heart disease that never smoked. You people that blame
    everything on smoking need to think a little more clearly! BUT I DO NOT WANT
    TO GET INTO ANOTHER SMOKING WAR!! We are talking about AIDS - lets leave it
    at that. If you can't prove your point(s) then back off, but don't bring up
    something else. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80143
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick on arthritis
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 11:59:45

    Ok - I've got Rhumatoid arthritis and I want them to stay on that research
    and not pull off to study AIDS! Why not keep with the Immune system research
    and then they may find a cure for AIDS - not the other way around?
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80144
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on media
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 12:10:21

    I believe in media coverage as far as them touting safe sex, condom use et
    al. I just don't believe in the media making a god out of Magic Johnson
    because he decides to go public with this. But I don't see where the media
    is touting 'abstinence' as a way to curtail AIDS, do you?
    I also believe they are going to far in reporting about AIDS and I say they
    do it because it's sexual in nature. As an average person, I HAVE been
    educated about AIDS and I think most people are by now. I know what it takes
    to not get it. I am sick of it - sick of reading in the paper about it -
    sick of hearing about it period! There is other, less sexual things that are
    just as bad if not worse that is going on in this world. Lets move on to
    things that need our attention. That is where I am coming from.
    It's just another damn fad Pauley after the smoke clears away.
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80145
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on AIDS
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 12:26:58

    Oh come on yourself Bill! I still say what the hell are we doing to our
    childen that the PARENTS have to take the responsibility as you said to tell
    their kids about a disease like AIDS? No matter what that reporter was
    asking the 6 - 7 year old children, they shouldn't HAVE to ask them or even
    invade their class rooms. That, to me, is carrying education too far!
    I posted some statistics the other day, and everyone seems to be ignoring
    them. AIDS is basically a homosexual disease and very few people have it in
    this country. Certainly NOT enough to justify telling children about it and
    scaring them to death. Certainly NOT enough to even mention it to them!
    We, as adults should not even be overly concerned about the disease. We need
    to be careful - but NOT anymore careful than we should have been before AIDS
    came on the scene because you could have still got awful venereal diseases.
    The entire thing is over blown by the media and they keep it there because
    it scares people out of their wits - it's sexual and that alone is enough to
    keep it stirred up and when people like Johnson get it, wowee!!! They have
    something to talk/write about for months and it's 'oh so gossipy' - oh so
    scandelous! Bah humbug! This is all crazy and people like you don't see it
    for what it is and you go out and burden little kids with this junk.
                         -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I'll make a bet that the 'innocents' that get Sypholis(sp> and
    Gonorreah and even die from it a year are higher than the people that get
    AIDS every year and die from it. WE never hear about those statistics do we?
    We here what THEY want us to hear!

    Message: 80146
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archi/Westlaw
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 12:35:24

    I'm sure I can't afford. I can barely afford Apollo. :-)

    Message: 80147
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: How to die
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:07:28

    I'd like to live to be very old and then during a White House tour simply
    explode.

    Message: 80148
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Pete P/Welfare
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:12:23

     I agree.  I think welfare recipents ought to have to work even if it is no
    more then moving rocks from one pile to another.  To allow them to sit home
    year after year without having to do a damn thing teaches them nothing other
    then the fact that
    "we" are a bunch of boobs willing to throw our money away.  There are plenty
    of ways to treat people with appropriate dignity and still make them work
    for their money.

    Message: 80149
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Aid Testing
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:17:44

    There was a little news item about a new AIDS test that seems to work and
    may be ready for market soon.  It tests for the AIDS antibodies in the
    saliva and could be sold and used the same way that home pregnancy test kits
    are now.  It will be interesting to see how much of a screech the religious
    right types put up, along with the medical professionals who don't want to
    lose their income from testing, when this thing is ready to market.
      The religious right folks will most likely NOT want to allow it to be sold
    "over the counter" as it will "promote promiscuity", after all, you would be
    able to test your prospective sexual partner on the spot!!. And parts of the
    medical profession will be yammering about how people shouldn't be allowed
    to test themselves, that they need the expertise of a medical professional
    to handle the telling of the results, etc, etc.

    Message: 80150
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Scare of AIDS
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:21:24

    But obviously it doesn't!!

    Message: 80151
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Fractional Res/Arc
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:30:18

    Of course the fractinal reserve ssytem controlls the value of money.  The
    value of money is controlled, in part, how much of "it" there is in
    circulation.  Anything that results in more of "it" in circulation will
    devalue "it".  Lowering the reserve requirements allows more loans which
    puts more money in circulation.

    Message: 80152
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gold v Papre
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:34:16

    The sucess of the gold standard can only be viewed in the context of its
    day.  I ought to be clear that such a standard would not work today.  While
    you seem to think we "willing" as it were, abandoned it, I think it would be
    more accurate to say that such a standard simply had to be abandon as no
    longer workable in a global economic setting.

    Message: 80153
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ripoff
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:40:24

    You seem to be saying that we have been being ripped off ever since the GOLD
    STANDARD was abandoned.  Interesting premise but except for the last decade
    or so it is hard to figure how the vast majority of us have been getting
    ripped off since our standard of living has improved steadily since the
    abandonment of the gold standard.  If you are going to claim that "we" have
    been ripped off you need to account for the improvement evident in our lives
    and show how that was a ripoff.

    Message: 80154
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:42:35

    RE:look at the mess we are in.
    We may be in a mess but I don't see it as the result of our lack of a gold
    standard nor have you tied our problems to a lack of a gold standard.  You
    are essentially inventing problems that are not of a concern to anyone and
    then claiming the solution would be the gold standard.

    Message: 80155
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 14:51:25

    RE: No possible way this monetary system could work
    Hmm, I guess becoming the Most powerful country on the earth since
    abandoning the gold standard is further proof of how our monetary system
    doesn't work??  If you think price controlls on the GOLD supply (which is
    exactly what your Gold standard is) is so wonderfull then it would be even
    more wonderfull to extend those controls to everything, wheat, cars,
    serv{ces, etc, and we can all live in{bliss forever.  Don't you understand??
     GOLD is just one more COMMODITY.  It is bought and sold and the buyers and
    sellers, in  a free market, determine the price.  It has no "intrinsic"
    value unless some powerfull group sets and enforces one and of course, that
    "intrinsic" value only holds if most people agree with it.  Don't you
    understand that when the US gvt was holding to it's fiction that gold was
    "only" worth $35 an ounce (or whatever) and it was selling on the open
    market elsewhere for Twice that amount, this country was hemorrhaging gold??
      The only choice is for us to become isolationist and adhere to an internal
    gold standard, which may or may not work anyways, or to acquiesce to
    monetary  control of a WORLD GVT.

    Message: 80156
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Best way to die
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:03:17

    Death in the saddle.  No better way to go.

    Message: 80157
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Green L.
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:03:51

    Had to laugh at your mention of "adult cathes" in the AIDS discussion a few
    days back.  Wath thith a cathe of a Freudian thlip perhapth?

    Message: 80158
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Letting kids be kids
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:06:03

    I can buy the fact that kids today get burdened with things they should
    never have to handle.  Weapons at school, drug sales in schoolyards, coping
    with alcoholic or abusive or molesting families, minds poisoned with the
    crass materialism and status-consciousness of television advertising,
    uncalled-for performance pressure, and all the rest of it.  But far too few
    people get indignant enough to demand that we "let children be children" by
    protecting them from these kinds of ruinous burdens.

    It's funny that the "let kids be kids" argument is more often used, not to
    urge that we protect them from harmful people and harmful events, so much as
    from *knowledge* that's alleged to be harmful to them.

    So what is this terrible knowledge of reality that kids are incapable of
    handling -- knowledge that's going to depress them, scare them to death and
    end their carefree, joyful, innocent childhood forever?

    Is it about injury and pain?  No, children know what pain is.  They've known
    it all their lives.  Nobody can escape childhood without knocking, banging
    or cutting themselves, or even being deliberately hit by another child, or
    by an adult.  Children know about emotional pain and humiliation too; and
    about cruelty.  Even if adults aren't cruel, other children can be.

    Is it about diseases?  No, children know about that when they're very young.
    They've usually had one or two minor ones.

    Message: 80159
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (2/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:07:13

    Is it about the threat of power and domination?  No, much of a child's life
    is dominated by huge giants who are far more powerful than he is.

    Is it about the ultimate threat of all -- death?  No, it's not even that.
    Children understand the meaning of death from about the age of five.  They
    know that being "dead" means that Fido won't come barking round the back
    door asking to be let in again -- ever.  And that we won't be seeing dear
    old Aunt Bertha again -- not in this world, at least -- because she's
    underneath the ground now.  That's heavy stuff for any kid.  But it gets
    worse, because the heaviest truth of all usually sinks in soon afterwards:
    that we *all* have to die some time.  Yet somehow, childhood skips on in
    merry defiance of these dark revelations.

    Unless they have a sick mind, people don't dwell on graphic images of death
    and injury to children.  They don't speak of bones crushed to splinters by a
    heavy automobile, or faces charred beyond recognition by a house fire.  But
    children understand how a hammer can smash things, how a knife can slice up
    meat, how heat can melt plastic into a shapeless mass.  In all probability,
    very little that an adult could say would outdo the product of a child's
    vivid imagination about violent death.  And it isn't that death is
    personally irrelevant to a child.  On the contrary: as children grow older
    they must learn to assume life-and-death responsibilities for themselves.
    "Look both ways before you cross the road."  "Don't play with matches."
    "Never take candy from a stranger."

    Message: 80160
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (3/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:09:06

    Education is an essential duty of a parent, to teach a child to protect
    himself.  Besides, a risk that cannot be avoided only makes a child fearful;
    but knowing how to minimize or eliminate a risk makes him feel competent.

    I could buy the idea that we "protect" children from the knowledge of
    terrible events if we only told children about such events in order to
    educate them about a risk.  But that manifestly isn't true.  We teach them
    history.  We tell them about wars, about hangings and burnings at the stake.
    Today we show them television cartoons where strange creatures shoot one
    another and get blown up or squashed into funny shapes.  But this is nothing
    new.  Since the beginning of history, we've made a point of telling children
    the most dreadful stories.  We've populated their world with wolves who have
    sharp teeth to rend Grandma limb from limb, with ghosts and nameless terrors
    that lurk in dark forests, and Queens who shriek "Off with her head!", and
    giants who smell people's blood, and boys who chop down beanstalks and smash
    the giant to a bloody pulp on the ground, and ugly sisters who chop off
    their toes, and witches who burn children to death in the oven and eat them.
    Perhaps the most terrifying of all is the wimp father in "Hansel and Gretel"
    who would sooner leave his children to starve in the forest than displease
    his shrewish wife.  A child has no control at all over being abandoned.

    Many of these stories are real to young children.  Yet we find them quite
    acceptable: not a violation of childhood at all, but a *part* of childhood
    even.  And most children, far from hating these stories, lap them up.

    Message: 80161
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (4/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:10:26

    Because of all they've learned and experienced in their short time on earth,
    children know the meaning of fear.  Yet a child who grows up in a healthy
    and supportive family will not be *burdened* by fear.

    Childhood is a serious business, when even the spontaneous enjoyment of play
    is also a kind of practice for being grown-up.  Real responsibilities that a
    child lacks the resources to cope with can be scary, but even then it's
    amazing how much a child can be capable of.  As for knowledge, children
    swallow it greedily and demand more -- even if it's bad news, like "there
    are wolves out in the forest".

    So isn't it funny that more often than not, when I hear someone talking
    about "letting children be children" or "not spoiling childhood", what
    they're talking about is keeping knowledge *from* children?  And again, more
    often than not, the knowledge they're referring to is not about truly
    frightening things like making holes in people with cold steel or hot lead,
    but about sticking body parts into places where people already have a hole.
    It's not about people hurting one another, but about people doing things
    that they mostly find enjoyable.  It's all very strange.  Children too will
    find it strange at first, since they don't yet understand a lot of the
    feelings involved with sex.  But they don't seem to find it scary.  It
    doesn't seem to blow their joy of childhood out of the water in practice.
    And why should it?  All knowledge is grist to their mill, though it may not
    be useful for many years to come.

    Message: 80162
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (5/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:12:04

    So why do some adults like to claim that sex education at a young age does
    something awful to children?  Why do some of them go on claiming it even
    when it's obvious that there are terrible dangers around today that children
    ought to know about?  Kids can handle the knowledge that running carelessly
    across the road might get them mashed into bloody jelly by a big truck; and
    that peril exists right now.  They can certainly handle the knowledge that
    there will be new dangers to navigate around in a few years' time.

    Why tell them now?  To that question I respond, why *not* tell them now?
    Why should it be so scary to them?  The main danger lies at least half-a-
    dozen years in the future, and that's literally a whole lifetime to a child
    of six or seven.  But it will give plenty of time for the risks to sink in.

    Why do we teach anything to a child before he really needs it?  Why do we
    try to teach thrift to a child who won't be earning and budgeting for his
    own keep for several years yet?  Why do we try to teach habits of
    responsibility to young children while parents are still responsible for
    their care?  We do it to prepare for the future in good time.

    So why not tell them now about sex, and AIDS and the rest of it?  Because it
    somehow spoils or cuts short their childhood?  Rubbish!  This is a blatant
    lie.  We don't withhold sex education to protect children!  We withhold it
    to protect pathetic, shamefaced, manipulative, hypocritical ADULTS!

    Message: 80163
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (6/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:13:29

    There are many people -- too many -- who clamor against sex education in a
    desperate and futile attempt to control the behavior of their offspring.
    Values of respect in human relationships should be taught from infancy on
    up; but whether they have or they haven't, sex drive comes when it comes: at
    puberty.  To argue that withholding sex education makes teenagers stop
    having sex is almost as ludicrous as the notion that early sex education
    will make seven-year-olds *start* having sex.  Yet these people cling to
    their absurd arguments in the face of all the evidence.  So why?  There has
    to be another reason.

    I'm sure there is.  I don't think it's just that people hope to control
    children's *behavior* by not telling them about sex.  (And anyway, what's
    wrong with telling children about homosexuals?  If the kids aren't gay,
    they're never going to experiment with that knowledge themselves.)  No, it's
    that some people can't abide the thought that kids *know* about these
    things.

    And why is that?  Because they think it makes grown-ups look bad in front of
    the kids, that's why!  And some people can't *stand* that!

    They can't bear to think that the children *know* what it is that Mommy and
    Daddy do in secret.  What it was that Mrs. Schultz down the street did with
    the delivery man -- and why her husband was so livid about it.  What big
    brother does with his girlfriend, and why she's looking so fat recently.

    Message: 80164
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Kids (7/7)
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 16:14:44

    What Uncle Elmer goes furtively looking for in the redlight district.  The
    real reason that the Senator fell from grace.  And the peculiar things that
    those two peculiar *men* do together.  All the weaknesses and foibles -- all
    the *faults* -- of adults, laid bare for children to know the truth about,
    and comment on, and perhaps laugh and giggle at behind their hands.  All the
    dignity of adulthood suddenly deflated in the eyes of children, and the
    purity and respectability of adults suddenly exposed for the big thumping
    lie that it is.

    Sex *is* kind of an undignified act, isn't it?  And the things people do
    during sex -- it must seem pretty funny to a child, mustn't it?  Especially
    (giggle) two men together.  Or even two women.  And the things people do to
    *get* sex -- the way they're obsessed with it, spend oodles of money for it,
    take risks for it, ruin their careers for it...  give their lives for it
    even.  It must seem pretty dumb to the rational viewpoint of a child.

    And that's what's so threatening about children.  It's not that they're
    stupid.  They aren't.  They're often very moral, too.  Many adults, on the
    other hand, have been forced to compromise with the world -- and with their
    own lusts.  They hate children to see their weaknesses.

    But you know, half that shame need never have been there in the first place,
    because sex is natural.  And the other half of that shame is caused by a
    lifetime of telling lies.  Especially to children.  Isn't it time to stop?

    Message: 80165
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Lender
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:17:27

    Re:  'The borrower is the servant of the lender.'

    I think that's a Bible quote.  Proverbs maybe.

    Message: 80166
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:25:53

    Re:  I do not fear death as some do, but see it as a graduation of sorts, to
    better things.

    I like the way the Salvation Army says it.  When one of their comrades
    passes on, they say he has been promoted to glory.

    Message: 80167
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:32:08

    Re:  The whole mess of having the schools explain this stuff could be
    avoided if parents would accept the responsibility to make explanations
    themselves and would then follow through and do some explaining.

    I think most parents do tell their children.  I have 3 boys, 12, 13, and 15.
     They all know what AIDS/HIV is and how it's spread.  They also know what
    condoms are and how they are used.  I'd be willing to bet most of the
    parents on this BBS tell their kids the same thing I have told my kids.

    Message: 80168
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:37:18

    Re:  I also believe they are going to far in reporting about AIDS and I say
    they do it because it's sexual in nature.

    You're probably right, but there's more to it.  I think the homos coming out
    of the closet and fighting for their lives have had a lot to do with it too.
     If all the homos were somehow immune to AIDS/HIV, it would get no more
    coverage than any other VD.

    Message: 80169
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:40:59

    Re:  It will be interesting to see how much of a screech the religious
    right types put up, along with the medical professionals who don't want to
    lose their income from testing, when this thing is ready to market.

    Maybe the medical professionals, but I doubt it.  I have no idea why you
    would say the "religious right" would object to it.  Or are you just
    "bashing" them.

    Message: 80170
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 17:42:33

    Re:  Death in the saddle.  No better way to go.

    You forgot the part about wearing cowboy boots!

    Message: 80171
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Kids ...
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 18:42:35

            Well, Sandy has seen fit to explain 'Gays' to our boys several years
    ago.  She has also explained the AIDS virus to them and how it seems to be
    transmitted.  Just like with guns, we have always felt education & knowledge
    is better than ignorance & curiosity.

            So far... it does not seem to have harmed them.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S.  Maybe a good [V]ote question... "Should kids be told...."
    Someone please bug the Cub SysOp to send in a new [V]ote question.... he
    does not listen to me.

    Message: 80172
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: New AIDS test
    Date: 11/30/91  Time: 23:36:57

    Interesting, I heard a guy call Bruce Williams who said he was looking for
    an appropriate disclaimer to put on his new product - an AIDS test which
    worked with saliva.  He said it was more accurate, faster, and cheaper than
    current tests.  Bruce told him to talk to his attorney.

    I wonder if the guy is a fraud.

    Message: 80173
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred Smith, 80147
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 00:40:57

    Your answer was beautifully put.  It would indeed be a great way to die,
    unselfishly, helping others.  I commend you.

    Message: 80174
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Burkette/ridiculous
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 00:43:15

    I've gotta make points in a ridiculous fashion.  There are too many
    educated, well written people on this system and I can't compete.  I did
    notice the opening for a 'ridiculous writer' here and I grabbed it.

    Message: 80175
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archemedes
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 00:53:26

    Just a moment while I roll another smoke........Of course you are correct in
    your assessment on a society of caring people working together.  At least in
    my lifetime it won't work.  Why?  You should know the answer, we all should.

    It is simply that the human animal has many internal screws loose, to put it
    ridiculously.  Our traditions still have us by the gonads.  They need to be
    carefully examined and de-glitched.  Our fear of death and dying causes us
    to do some mighty foolish things and our fear of hunger, ditto.

    We somehow need to take a giant step up and throw off this animal skin but I
    have a feeling that we all shall do that anyway.  It is hard to enjoy it
    after discovering other possibilities but I'll try.

    As far as a conspiracy by the ruling class against the working class...when
    hasn't there been one?  And the working class always has their conspiracy
    against the ruling class.  It never ends.  What can I do to help?

    Message: 80176
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Condoms
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 01:04:05

    A large percentage of condoms sold are of the lubrcated variety.  I just
    wonder what the lubricant consists of?  I would imagine that it is absorbed
    into the vaginal walls.  Mixed with the latex of the condom I would imagine
    something like a chemical stew is created.

    I wonder how many women still use Tampax.

    Message: 80177
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: New Times
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 01:04:59

    Will someone from this system please apply for the New Times writing
    position?

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