### Apollo BBS Archive - October 29, 1988

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4605
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last Few
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 11:38:32

            With friends like these .......

            Who needs enemies!
                                    hehehe

    Federal Express is waiting .......

    Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1131
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Alan/cars
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 08:45:39

    I had exactly what your parents have - the Cadillac and it was a dream! They
    truly don't make cars like that anymore even with a price tag of $25,000!
    Mine was a 1968 model though and it was huge! Unfortunately, it started
    wearing out and parts were hard to come by. We got a Ford Granada that was
    pretty big too, but nothing like the Caddy. At the time we had 5 vehicles
    and sold it to our son. He lost it stupidly - it would be considered a
    classic now and I'll always regret giving it up. It got 16 miles per gallon
    with out a tune up and a fellow we knew had one just like it - fined tuned
    it and got 21 miles per gal. out of it! We paid $1,600 for that car in 1970
    off of a used car lot! It had 46,000 on the speedomiter. =+= ANN =+=
    P.S. Yes - where have you been?

    Message: 1132
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Allan's where-abouts
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 11:40:36

            He was captured by a clever Irishman .........

    Message: 1133
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Caddies
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 21:05:42

            When I lived in L.A., 1960, I bought and drove a 1946 Caddy.  When I
    moved from there, I gave it to a friend.  The friend later kidnapped Frank
    Sinatri, Jr.  I moved to New Orleans where I purchased a 1948 Caddy and
    drove that for a few years until I bought a 1955 Cad.  Then I started wising
    up and in 1966 I purchased a new red, VW Karmann Ghia.  In 1968 I got a
    another new Ghia, red.  Since I no longer like to work on automobiles, I use
    vehicles that have a Mopar, 225, slant six.
                                    Rod

    Bulletin Board Entered: $C

    Message: 55000
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 05:08:35

    Only when he's in his elf stage.

    Message: 55001
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carol/kids
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 08:36:33

    I agree with your post. My daughter dedicated her life to raising her 3 kids
    and right now, it seems that it was all in vain! He two oldest, boys, are
    not exactly dopers or criminals - but they certainly do not act the way they
    were raised. They want complete freedom to do what they want - does not want
    her telling them what to do in the least - even though she feeds and houses
    them and they have no jobs. They won't keep their messes cleaned up nor come
    in at her specified hours. One came home totally drunk the other night. They
    completely disregard her as if she isn't even there. One is already 18 but
    has no ambition and just 'takes' from who ever is foolish enough to give -
    the other boy is 16 and still a minor but wants total freedom too. Her
    guilty feelings won't let her throw the bums out - but if she did, they'd
    just become street people. Her daughter is 11 and still a great kid though.
    She went to much effort to raise these kids right - with a firm hand but a
    loving heart. I always thought she was the best mother I ever saw, but it
    got her no where. We only hope they will out grow all of this and become
    decent self supporting people. All their years they went to a church private
    school - but it only went to the 8th grade and then they had to go to public
    school. That was when the trouble started! Peer pressures got to them I
    guess. We love these kids very much but certainly don't like them at this
    stage! If she had a man around the house, no doubt it would help. I know if
    my husband was raising them - things would be different or they simply
    wouldn't be there! I know that parents have been complaining about their
    teenagers for centuries - but it seems that the teens today face more
    problems than we did at that age. =+= ANN =+=

    Message: 55004
    Author: Mychele Nickels
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Want to have a fair?
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 10:17:51

    There will be at gt tonight at the AZ fair.  Meeting t time, 8pm.  Where?
    The north enterance.
    I will be the one in the red hair.
    I might have a sign too.
    How about Libra?

    So, come one, come all, and come with a friend!

    Message: 55005
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Raising Kids
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 12:28:37

            It takes more than love and devotion .......
    It also takes Values and Practicing What You Preach.

            Carol, take heart. Can you wait a few more years and then I
    will let you know if I had to 'eat' any of my words? (hehehe)
            I am spending a great deal of time and effort raising my boys.
    I, UG, am practicing what I preach and am instilling in each one of them
    Moral and Religious Values.

    Message: 55006
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carol Graham
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 14:55:43

      I always resent extra effort!
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 55007
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Taranto
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 14:57:14

    You ask:
     Since you cannot cite any historical precedent, can you offer any evidence
     that either (1) the Democratic Party is likely to cease being a major party
     or (2) if it does, the Libertarian Party is likely to supersede it as the
     second major party?

      It is a fact that major political parties have come and gone in the past.
    I suspect that you would agree with me that the Democratic party is
    suffering under the heel of a liberal minority which dictates its platform
    and national candidates in a way which is not supported by much of its
    membership (Otherwise no Republican could win the Presidency).
      The fact that these people will not vote Democratic AND will not register
    Republican tells you that they are not satisfied with either and will jump
    at the chance to support a party which offers both economic and personal
    freedom. The more viable the Libertarian Party becomes, the faster they
    will be jumping ship. The more people jump, the faster the old ship will
    be sinking, since it isn't that seaworthy to begin with. When it is clearly
    unable to run a credible national campaign, the remaining hands will have
    to decide between the remaining alternatives if they want to have any say
    in national policy. The only obstacle I see to this scenario is a major
    change in Democratic party leadership and direction.

    Message: 55008
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hathaway
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 17:40:31

    There are two major flaws in your argument.  First, while it is true that
    the Democratic Party is in trouble at the national level, because it is
    dominated by Northeastern liberals who are far from the mainstream of
    American opinion, the Democratic Party is still strong at the state and
    local levels.  For example, while all 11 states of the Confederacy are
    expected to go Republican in the presidential race, in most cases by wide
    margins, Democrats control both houses of the legislatures in all those
    states.  For example, Democrats hold 116 seats in the Mississippi House of
    Representatives, compared with 6 for Republicans.  Democrats hold 35 seats
    in the South Carolina Senate, compared with 9 for Republicans.  Of the 22
    U.S. senators from these states, only 6 are Republicans.  Only one state
    (Virginia) sends two Republicans to the U.S. Senate; after Nov. 8 it is
    likely that only one state (Mississippi) will.

    Of course, the Democratic Party of the South is barely recognizable as the
    same Democratic Party that created Michael Dukakis, and that Lloyd Bentsen
    and Jesse Jackson come from the same party is truly amazing.  It is likely
    that after the Bush landslide there will be a major shakeup in the
    Democratic Party, which will determine whether it is led by people like
    Bentsen (in which case it may again become competitive at the national
    level) or Jackson (in which case it will be a minority party for a very long
    time).

    It's silly to write the obituary of the Democratic Party, however.  It is,
    after all, the oldest political party in the world (having formed in 1832),
    and it has endured hard times before (between 1860 and 1928 the Democrats
    won only four presidential elections).  It is very likely, in my estimation,
    that the Republicans will become the majority party, perhaps taking control
    of Congress sometime in the 1990s.  But the Democrats will stay around,
    although what direction they will take is impossible to foresee.  Certainly,
    ours will remain a two-party system and the Democrats will be one of those
    parties unless a viable third party forms.  This hasn't happened since the
    Civil War.

    You, of course, insist that the Libertarian Party will be this third party.
    This is the second (and more serious) flaw in your argument.  It is what I
    call the Libertarian conceit:  the notion that political success is the
    result of coming as close as possible to the libertarian agenda.  (For an
    excellent demonstration of this fallacy, see an article in Reason earlier
    this year titled, "Why Bush Is Winning," which argues that Bush's success is
    the result of his opponents taking particular stands with which libertarians
    disagree.)

    Let us suppose that the Democratic Party is on its way out.  What makes you
    think that the Libertarian Party is a likely alternative to the Democratic?
    Remember that the Libertarian Party was formed as an alternative to the
    Republican Party, by free-market Republicans disgruntled with President
    Nixon's imposition of wage and price controls.  (Can anyone imagine
    President Reagan or President Bush imposing wage and price controls?)

    Now, who are all these people who you say will "jump at the chance to vote
    for a party that offers both economic and personal freedom"?  And why
    haven't they jumped?  After all, Libertarians have been running since 1972
    and the only time they've gotten more than one percent in a presidential
    race was in 1980, when protest voting was very big.  (John Anderson, a
    candidate without a party, got six times as many votes as Ed Clark, the
    Libertarian candidate.)

    People are not deserting the Democratic Party because it does not adhere
    to the Libertarian platform.  The Democratic Party's biggest problems are
    its weak position on national defense and its permissiveness on social
    issues.  The Libertarians are arguably worse than the Democrats on foreign
    policy -- they advocate complete isolationism.  This is unlikely to be a
    popular position anywhere.  On social issues, they advocate complete
    permissiveness.  "Reagan Democrats" are not going to vote for a party that
    advocates stopping aid to the Afghan freedom-fighters and legalizing drugs.
    If people are uncomfortable with the Republican Party, it is because the
    Republicans' nominally laissez faire economic policies are seen as favoring
    "big business" over the "little guy."  Note Dukakis' marginal success at
    pressing his message of "economic populism."  This is unlikely to be a
    decisive factor, though, for pragmatic reasons:  economic freedom works.

    Message: 55011
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann's grandkids
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 18:40:26

    I read your post about your grandkids, and I wondered if I will be in the
    same boat 10 or 15 years from now.  Our 3 boys 9, 10, & 12 are all in a
    Christian school.  The school is doing an excellent job both scholastically
    and morally, but they are looking forward to attending a public high school.
     Who can give a reason for your daughters situation?  Certainly not I.  I do
    think not having a father in the home was a contributing factor.  A family
    needs both a mother and a father in the home.  I've never been a single
    parent, but I think it's vastly over rated.

    Message: 55012
    Author: Mychele Nickels
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: The a fair
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 19:17:21

    NEVER MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I am so disapointed in you all!

    I knew the clan was dead but I didn't know all of Phoenix was too!

    Message: 55013
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Denver
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 19:23:33

    Note that he shouldn't be using NASA facilities for his training, which I
    understand that he is...

    Message: 55014
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: War!
    Subject: Nikki's attitude
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 19:29:38

    I just logged in, read your post, decided I wanted to rush down there, then
    finished reading the public board.  Good thing, too, or I would be waiting
    in vain.

    Message: 55015
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Parties
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 21:12:10

            When the average American voter wakes up, I believe either the
    Libertarian Party will grow or the two major parties will take a more fair
    tact in order to keep the Libertarians down.  In any case, I see this third
    party as very important to our future freedoms.

    Message: 55016
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: raising children
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 21:15:03

            My children have NO religious training.  My wife and I love them and
    they love us.  We live like brothers and sisters.  It couldn't be easier.
            I think the trick here is to NOT let them get near a church.
                                    Rod

    WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 439
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Christian Rod!
    Subject: Rod your last
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 09:35:03

    Cliff cannot come over to my house because I have dogs and he's allergic to
    them! I have 4 dogs plus 16 birds. He'd die within 5 minutes of entering
    this house!
    Actually, Cliff performed a miracle on my computer - it runs better than
    when it was new and only charged $2.95. Trouble is - he charged $498 to put
    the computer, moniter and keyboard in my car!
    My story was fiction I admit - he came right back home after finding he
    couldn't perchace a computer like mine. Poor soul! Such is life. =+= Annie
    the AssP

    Message: 440
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Annie the ASSp
    Subject: Mughty Sysop
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 09:38:17

    Please don't put me in the ZONE! What you need here as I've mentioned before
    is a (L)iar's sig or (L)ying sig. - where you won't put people in the Zone
    for not telling the truth - even about the Sysop! We could make up these
    outragious lies (bordering on the truth) and have lots of fun. Think about
    it. =+= Annie the AssP

    Message: 441
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Mighty SYSOPs
    Subject: Last
    Date: 10/29/88  Time: 12:37:13

            Ann, Cliff was joking. He would not put you in the ZONE for
    your fictitious story.........he had too good of a laugh when he took
    a look inside of your Tandy.
            Of course, the reality of what had to be done to make your Tandy
    a semi-usable IBM compatable machine quickly set in ..................

    WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:EA

    You chose Annie the ASSp

    Subject:Cliff

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:        Invite Cliff to your house but don't tell him about the pets.  By
     2:the way, do your pets have enough room to roam?  Do you?
     3:end

    Edit command:S

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