### Apollo BBS Archive - July 24, 1987

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* $tatus Club Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1600
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Howerton/Lesson
    Date: 07/23/87  Time: 23:30:01

    It took you long enough to learn that...

    Message: 1601
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Art
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 00:09:11

    You mealy-mouthed little critics have no business judging my work.

    Message: 1602
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject:  board...?
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 01:11:05

            Well, it looks like there may be one after all...  Lets hear from a
    few more users.

    ClifFART

    Message: 1603
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Howerton/Dark Tower
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 01:53:54

    Donald M. Grant edition?

    You're right of course, about King's first hardcover editions. I can't stand
    him (and won't collect him), but I wouldn't be above making a tidy profit
    from one of his books (in fact, I have). A sample of prices from the L.W.
    Currey catalogue:
    "Carrie...Doubleday 1974...w/brief inscription...$350.00"

    "The Dark Tower:The Gunslinger...Grant 1981...one of 500 signed
    copies...$500.00"

    "Night Shift...Doubleday 1978...$600.00"

    Kind of speaks for itself.

    Message: 1604
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: P.K.D.
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 02:02:48

    I'm not a fan (never read him), but here's some info for those who might be
    interested:

    Now in stock from Underwood-Miller (515 Chestnut St. Columbia, PA
    17512-1233);

    The Collected Stories of Phillip K. Dick...All of P.K.D. short and medium
    length fiction (5 volumes...900,000+ words), including some previously
    unpublished stories. 416 pages each volume (6 1/2 x 9 1/2). Five volume set
    is $125.00, limited (100 copies) deluxe edition in slipcase w/signature,
    $350.00

    I believe they also published a biography, for all you hardcore P.K.D. fans.

    Message: 1605
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Art bored
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 02:22:03

    Just what I need, some fresh input.

    Message: 1606
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: king
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 04:47:30

    Yeah, it is the  Grant edition.
    Dark Tower II was just released from Grant.
    I did hear a wild rumour that all of the Dark Tower stuff would be
    released  in paperback within a year or so.
    It will only affect the value of  the second printing hardcovers.

    Message: 1607
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: lesson
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 04:48:53

    You know me, it takes me forever  to learn all of that
    common sense stuff.
    It ran through my head real quick at the time that he was
    bluffing.  I  guess calling people's bluff is not a good idea.

    Message: 1608
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: The Belgariad
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 07:39:47

      True, Silk is a snide little devil.  His smart remarks are one of the
    book's great strengths.  However, I can't stand Ce'nedra.  I hate bitchy
    litte kids, and that's what she strike me as (and at times, Garion too).

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 1609
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Traci.Nick
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 09:57:30

    Thanks for the votes. It's looking good. --- ANN ---

    Message: 1610
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike Howerton
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 09:59:10

    I called your house regarding those King papers - got a recording that said
    I'd be talking to the president!! He never did call back!! --- ANN ---

    Message: 1611
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 10:01:46

    I also mentioned other boards like a poetry and story one. ___ Well, can
    those just be in the art board too? It doesn;t have to be just drawings. Is
    there enough votes yet? --- ANN ---

    Message: 1612
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: James Taranto
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 10:05:46

    You might get a little ribbing once in a while - probablly from the ones
    that do not use the art board. Only the ones that do can appriciate how hard
    it is to create anykind of drawing on a word processer!! I still havn't got
    the hang of it but like to try. Looks to me like you've done it before -
    right? --- ANN ---
    P.S. Hope Cliff gives us at least 40 lines to work with.

    Message: 1613
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 18:07:26

    ****************
    *            *    *
    *********** ********
    **********************
    ********* *       *
    ************** ** *
    *******************

    Message: 1614
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James T.
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 19:36:18

        33333333$$$$$$$$((((((()))
                            ******  ****** *****
        OOO OOO OOO       #################################

    .......999)))((()))((( ---ANN---

    Message: 1615
    Author: $ Traci Sibel
    Category: Question?
    Subject: for all you
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 22:25:23

    knowledgeable people out there......

                  X
                  !
                  !
                  +-\/\----------------------------------Y
                  0       150  160  170  180  190  200

    What is the offiicial name of the little squiggly up there that denotes a
    break in frequency?

    (no joke, I don't know the answer, but it's worth 5 pts Extra Credit..)

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Atari Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 412
    Author: $ Chris Zagar
    Category: For sale
    Subject: MIDI Synthesizer
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 09:17:53

    I am selling a Yamaha PSR-60 synthesizer.  This synth features a four-octave
    full-sized keyboard, 16 stereo and 16 monophonic voices (one of each may be
    selected at a time) and 16 rhythms with 3 fill-ins per rhythm.  It also
    features MIDI in and out jacks for connection to other synths or computers
    such as the Atari 520ST or 1040ST.  It has a memory for recording music, and
    can save/load compositions to/from a tape recorder through provided jacks.
    It can operate off of either 110 AC or batteries and has built-in speakers
    and jacks for external speakers or headphones.  All sounds are digital PCM
    produced for accurate reproduction.

    I am asking $500.  If interested, please leave me mail.

    SYSOP Chris

    A

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Late Night Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1126
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/22/87  Time: 01:11:52

    They broke up.  Sting, Copeland and Summers are now persuing solo careers.
    Do I have to call all three of them?

    Message: 1127
    Author: $ Nikki Kalua
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Sandy/ask me
    Date: 07/23/87  Time: 00:51:07

    NOT YOU TOO!   I know nothing about the kiss from Cliff or slavery.
    I don't get into that kinky stuff.

    Message: 1128
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Kinky
    Date: 07/23/87  Time: 11:25:41

    My, My, My, My, My ..........
            I fear that someone is reading between the lines.
    Oh, dear! Oh, my gosh! My, goodness!

    Cliff is my slave because of 'spousal rape' (kissing me while I was asleep
    and unable to give my consent). I now have the power to throw the 'bum' in
    jail ..... He-he. One wrong move from Cliff ...... and ....... CLANK! there
    goes the metal jail doors.

    Speaking of Kinky stuff ........... how can you write such sensuous stories
    without getting involved with Kinky stuff? If you do not write from memory,
    then do you go out on field trips at night and study the species?
                            (joke, joke)

    Message: 1129
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Klif's Kiss
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 02:40:23

    Where did he kiss you?  It might have been sodomy as well.

    Oh well.

    Message: 1130
    Author: $ Traci Sibel
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: poor sandy
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 23:02:57

    run away & find 7 dwarfs.....

    HI HO! HI HO! It's off to bed I go!!

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 45293
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Billi
    Date: 07/22/87  Time: 00:53:34

    Durants on North Central was quiet and Billi and I had a corner all to
    ourselves, I opened the conversation.  "Billi, you made a decent point at
    our last get together, but I am more like the US Army 45's compared to the
    German Luger, I do tend to blow them away a bit rather than just drill these
    small holes through them."
      "Gee, Rod, you really are a handsome fellow, our last din-din was in a
    dark restaurant and I hadn't noticed, so what's new?"
      "Well, Billi, I was just thinking, it would seem to me that if the
    Christian heaven/hell concept is true then that would mean there is a very
    big sadistic streak in the followers, or else they are just unaware of the
    facts"
      "How's that, please explain yourself Rod?"
      "Simple, really simple, Billi, as a matter of fact, most all tough
    problems have the very simplest answers, but to continue, take for instance
    any ole Christian at all and put them in heaven for eternity, okay?"
      "Now," I continued, how do you think the person would feel about the
    non-christians being in hell forever, say 10,000 years passed and the person
    is still being punished, and the Christian knows this full well, wouldn't or
    better yet, shouldn't it bother that person?"  "Wouldn't you bother you, I
    know it would bother the hell out of me."
      "So, to continue, is not my summation correct, have merit, mean anything?"
      "Okay Rod", chimes Billi, "That is a simple one, you have not taken your
    blinders off, I see, the answer is obvious."   When a Christian goes through
    the Pearly Gates, they toss their brains in a big box."  "See?"

    Message: 45294
    Author: Lance Allen
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: FOX BBS
    Date: 07/23/87  Time: 23:14:19

    Hello people,
      I'd just to announce that FOX COMM is back up and running
    on a COCO 3 with 3 drives etc..So give it a call and try it
    out....! The number is 482-7458 Free on-line dloads & games
    etc..
      Again the number    = 4 8 2 - 7 4 5 8 =
                            '''''''''''''''
           Later...,
                 L.A.

    Message: 45295
    Author: Ryan Oli
    Category: In search of
    Subject: skating
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 00:34:37

            ATTENTION SKATERS
       This is Ryan Oli and I'm looking
    for a few fellow skaters to get to
    know on this board. So PLEASE write
    me if you skate.
    B.J.
    e a
    s m
    t              OLi

    Message: 45296
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: J.T.
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 01:33:11

    No, all of conclusions are based on false assumptions. For example, it

    simply wasn't stated that there would be no paint in the universe. It was
    stated that everything would be blue, including the paint. This takes care
    of the difficulties involving a paintless universe.

    Now then, please tender me the keys to the bread locker.

    Message: 45297
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Billi
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 01:38:29

    Actually, if you define "God" as an omnipotent being, it is (and has been
    shown to be) a self-contradictory, and thus invalid concept. If you define
    "God" as a being of finite, but greater relative power than humans, you have
    defined nothing; since everything can appear "godlike" in terms of relative
    power to something else. You might as well say "God is everything".
    Meaningless.

    "Once I swam across a lake of fire merely to notify an old woman that the
    calamity she dreaded was unlikely to occur."

           ---Cugel the Clever

    Message: 45298
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Jim White
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 06:22:28

            I smiled easily as Jim chowed down.  "I do admire your attempt to
    bring this conversation to a rational basis, but I fear you have put forward
    one precept that I cannot allow you.  You say you cannot allow the New
    Testament to be put forward as a historical document.  While I will allow
    that it accurately recounts SOME events that took place in the past, I do
    not think we can consider it HISTORICAL TRUTH."
            Jim choked and quickly sipped some 7UP, but I gave him no chance to
    respond before I continued.  "Homer Oddessy, for example, covers
    historically valid facts and events, but includes the gods being interwoven
    into the tale.  Why is the bible more valid than it.  Or Geoffry of Monmouth
    obvious fabrications: why should be believe it as opposed, say, to Caesar's
    accounts of the conquest of Britain?"
            Jim was turning blue, but I pressed on.  "The fact is, Jim, old boy,
    that Jesus WAS an obscure philosopher.  It was less of a phenomenon than
    Judas Macabees, and hardly rose above the pack of messiahs running around
    Palestine during those days.  St. Paul is the man who promoted him and his
    teaching and made him a world messiah.  Even so, there is very interesting
    work, like "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," that suggests Christ never died (and
    that his bloodline continues yet today in France)."
            As Jim passed out from rational overload, I finished with, "So, if
    you want to claim rationality, let's get down to verifiable facts, not
    fables.  Otherwise, if you want the New Testament, I want the Oddessey, The
    Bo Tain, and, oh say, the Book of Moron..."j

    Message: 45299
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Rod Williams
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 06:30:38

            "D's is a nice place," I told Rod,"And your observations about
    Christians are interesting.  Still, I'd not limit God just because his
    followers have ideosyncracies.  As God told meat a recent lunch, the
    Christians have forgotten that before he made them 'enlightened' he first
    made them men."
            Rod nodded.  "Hey, if you want to waste the brain sweat believing,
    that's no skin off my nose."
            I smiled.  "I find believing in something unrational is useful while
    my work has me doing things like logical programs or has me creating fantasy
    worlds..."
            Rod smiled and stretched.  "So, do you think you'll need my 'Luger"
    approach with Jim White?"
            I shrugged.  "If he continues to insist the bible is more than a
    collection of stories and folk wisdom, yes, because our conversation ends
    there."
            Rod looked at me incredulously.  "You expect it to go any further?"
            I smiled.  "Maybe.  Remember, before God made Jim 'holier than you
    or me' he did make him part of the human race."
            Rod shook his head.  "Don't remind me: I can't stand the idea of
    sharing a species with him..."

    Message: 45300
    Author: $ James White
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Billi Idyll
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 08:38:05

         I chuckled inside as I realized that Billi thought I was having
    a "rational overload" when in fact I was trying to keep a straight
    face.  I regained my composure enough to ask, "Billi, do you really
    think that what you just said makes any sense?"
         "Well of course" Billi said with his all-knowing smile intact,
    "I'm perfectly rational, remember?"
         "Oh yes" I replied.  "But the number of unproven assumptions
    that just reached my ears is not.  Would you allow me the opportunity
    of responding to them?"
         "I suppose so.  I guess I've baited you sufficiently."
         "Why thank you."  I sighed deeply, wondering if Billi really was
    as ignorant of the real facts as he was acting.  Could he be baiting
    me again?  Who knows?  I know there are people who really accept that
    kind of fairy-tale history being pushed by people like Wells, Allegro,
    and Baigent, but Billi just doesn't seem that silly.  Oh well, fools
    rush in...
         "First, you did not address any of the issues relevant to the
    historical accuracy of the New Testament and its value as a witness
    to the existence of Jesus.  You're simple statement that you will not
    accept the NT as being accurate does not mean anything to anyone but
    yourself, you must realize that.  Tell me, Billi, have you ever read
    "Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament" by A.N. Sherwin-
    White?  He is a reader in ancient history at the University of Oxford."
         "Eh, can't say that I have."

    Message: 45301
    Author: $ James White
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Billi cont.
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 08:39:37

         "Oh, that's too bad.  Have you read anything by F.F. Bruce - I
    know Jim Lippard calls him "ultra conservative" but if Bruce is ultra
    conservative John Allegro is mainline."
         "Who?" Billi asked, never losing his all-knowing smile.
         "Never mind.  Billi, you will have to deal with brass tacks to
    convince me that there is no value in the NT as an historical witness
    to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.  You will have to deal with
    the dating of the text, formation of canon, patristic citations, etc.
    Are you prepared to do that?"
         "Oh come on Jim" Billi chuckled, "don't be ridiculous."
         "I'm not being ridiculous, Billi.  I'm asking for facts.  I'm asking
    for a little objectivity here.  You mentioned the Odyssey in the same
    breath as the NT.  Surely you can't be serious, can you?  You can read
    Acts, with its intricate recording of historical detail (rulers, places,
    roads, sea lanes, etc. and etc.) and place it on the same level as Homer?
    Lets get reasonable here, Billi."
         "Well what about his being an obscure philosopher?"
         "I suppose if Jesus had lived in Rome he would have made a big
    enough splash to impress you, but he didn't.  Acts says that by the mid
    50's there was a large population of Christians in Rome.  That's pretty
    quick growth for a movement with no founder.  And Billi - talking about
    Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln's fantasy work "The Holy Blood and the Holy
    Grail"???  No truly reputable scholar would give that the time of day!
    Talk about unfounded assumptions, presuppositions and fantasy!"

    Message: 45302
    Author: $ James White
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Billi last
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 08:40:10

         As Billi was beginning to slip under the table from real
    rational overload, I finished off the last meatball and reached
    for my slice of chocolate cake.  "And by the way, Billi, as you
    said yourself, let's get down to verifiable facts, not fables.
    You were exactly right.  "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is myth and
    fable, not fact.  Lets deal with facts.  How about it Billi?"
        Billi's head disappeared from view.  I was somewhat embarrassed
    by the scene, but I hoped that Billi would regain consciousness
    soon.  We had only just begun our conversation, and I was sure
    that he had more bait in his box.

    Message: 45303
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Lippard11
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 10:18:45

         On page 13 of "Fundamentalism is Nonsense" Jim briefly discusses
    the massacre of children under Herod and states, "no historian mentioned
    any such massacre."  This is untrue.  Matthew wrote about it.  On what
    basis does Jim insist that Matthew is not to be trusted?  Much of the
    skeptical material is laced through and through with these kind of
    negative presuppositions that assume the outcome of the argument in
    order to prove the argument, which is, of course, circular reasoning.
    Even if one does not like to allow Matthew his place (how many historical
    events are based on only one source and yet we don't question them - like
    about half of all of Roman history?) then we need to remember that
    "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  Ever heard that before?
         On page 14 Jim has a topic entitled "Birth of Jesus."  This
    section is representative of much of the book.  The assumed position is
    that by saying "In Matthew, the angel visits Joseph; in Luke, he visits
    Mary" that somehow a contradiction is implicit.  The underlying
    assumption is that the writers of these documents did not know one
    another and were ignorant of the real events.  Also, this kind of
    writing assumes that there is no such thing as harmonization.  This
    fallacy is rampant throughout anti-theist writings, and unfortunate
    fact.  Why could not the angel have visited BOTH Mary and Joseph and
    Matthew record one visit and Luke the other?  More could be said on
    this, but that's enough for the present.

    Message: 45304
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: induction
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 10:41:51

    Absence of evidence most certainly is evidence of absence.  There is no
    evidence of an elephant in this room, that is very good evidence that there
    is in fact no elephant in this room.
       Absence of evidence is not DEDUCTIVE evidence of absence, but it is
    inductive evidence.

    Message: 45305
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: gospels' genre
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 10:49:14

    The genre of the gospels is not history.  This is a very mainstream
    position.  They are a collection of preachings, teachings, and inspirational
    stories.

    Message: 45306
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: ...The Gang
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 16:31:08

        I sipped quietly at my Yoo-Hoo(tm) and peeked across the restaurant
    where two funny-looking men were sitting.  One looked like "Joe
    Pineapple-Head" (Billi) and the other looked like a white Bill Cosby (J.
    White).  They seemed to be arguing.
        Across from me sat Rot Williams.
        "Drain bamage, no?"
        "Uh huh, Rod."
        We began listening.  Tales of historical evidence and circular reasoning
    filled my clean and Rod's filthy-waxy ears.  It soon became apparent that
    they were not only answering the wrong questions, but gritting their teeth.
         James sucked a meatball up his straw.  "Look, bub, if you were a REAL
    scholar, you'd know that..."
        "Oh Jaymess.  Want some WORRRMS???"  He dangled a couple of
    nightcrawlers in front of James' squinched-up face, which James quickly
    consumed, mixing the fleshy worm-tissue with the chocolate cake lingering in
    his mouth from earlier.
        "YOU'RE the one who was BAITED! Ha HA!!!"  It was true.  When Billi
    smiled, it became apparent that he had a horse fly lodged between his
    teeth.  Seeing this bugged me slightly.
        "Oh YEAH?" said Billi, as he violently twisted the napkin in his lap.
    "Well my obscure philosopher can lick your obscure philosopher!"
        "Sez who?!"
        "Sez ME, spinach breath."
        "I know you are, but what am I?"

    Message: 45307
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: ...The Gang, cont.
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 16:47:54

        Needless to say, the sight was incredibly disgusting, so Rod and I left
    for fear of the ever-embarassing double vomit.
        "What do you think, Rod?  I mean, are such arguments worth pursuing when
    both sides are positive they're right and this assuredness shines through in
    the form of condescending crapola?"
        "I don't know.  But I must say, it sure is amusing.  Better than
    wrestling."
        "That's true."

    I await the next series of "Dinner" messages with baited breath.

    Message: 45308
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 17:32:29

      There are two immense words from Indo-European, *gene* and
    *bheu*, each a virtual anthill in itself, from which we have
    constructed the notion of Everything.  At the beginning, or
    as far back as they are traceable, they meant something like
    being.  *Gene* signified beginning, giving birth, while
    *bheu* indicated existence and growth.  *Gene* turned itself
    successively into *kundjaz* (Germanic) and *gecynd* (Old
    English), meaning kin or kind.  Kind was at first a family
    connection, later an elevated social rank, and finally came
    to rest meaning kindly or gentle.  Meanwhile, a branch of
    *gene* became the Latin *gens*, then gentle itself; it also
    emerged as genus, genius, genital, and generous; then, still
    holding on to its inner significance, it became "nature"
    (out of *gnasci*).
      While gene was evolving into "nature" and "kind," *bheu*
    was moving through similar transformations.  One branch
    became *bowan* in Germanic and *bua* in Old Norse, meaning to
    live and dwell, and then the English word build.  It moved
    into Greek, as *phuein*, meaning to bring forth and make
    grow; then as *phusis*, which was another word for nature.
    *Phusis* became the source of physic, which at first meant
    natural science and later was the word for medicine.  Still
    later, physic became physics.
      Both words, at today's stage of their evolution, can be

    Message: 45309
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 17:44:13

    taken together to mean, literally, everything in the
    universe.  You do not come by words like this easily; they
    cannot just be made up from scratch.  They need long lives
    before they can signify.  "Everything," C. S. Lewis observed
    in a discussion of the words, "is a subject on which there
    is not much to be said."  The words themselves must show the
    internal marks of long use; they must contain their own
    inner conversation.
      These days it is reassuring to know that nature and
    physics, in their present meanings, have been interconnected
    in our minds, by a sort of hunch, for all these years.  The
    other words clinging to them are a puzzlement, but nice to
    see.  If you let your mind relax, all the words will flow
    into each other in an amiable sort of nonsense.  "Kind"
    means a relation, but it also means "nature."  The word for
    kind is the same as the word for gentle.  Even "physics,"
    save us, is a kind of "nature," by its nature, and is,
    simultaneously, another kind of kind.  There are ancient
    ideas reverberating through this structure, very old
    hunches.
      It is part of the magic of language that some people can
    get to the same place by the use of totally different words.
    Julian of Norwich, a fourteenth-century hermitess, said it
    so well that a paragraph of hers was used recently by a

    Message: 45310
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 17:48:17

    physicist for his introduction to a hard-science review of
    contemporary cosmological physics: "He showed me a little
    thing, the quantity of a hazelnut, in the palm of my hand,
    and it was as round as a ball.  I looked thereupon with eye
    of my understanding and thought: What may this be?  And it
    was answered generally thus: it is all that is made."

    Message: 45311
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Homer
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 17:58:16

    BTW, the Iliad and the Odyssey do contain detail and historical facts.  The
    Trojan War really did occur, as archaeologists have uncovered the city of
    Troy and other sites of direct relevance to the story of the Iliad.
    (Some interesting stuff about the Iliad may be found in the beginning of
    Julian Jaynes' "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the
    Bicameral Mind".)

    Message: 45312
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Adkins
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 18:05:24

    If everything were blue, what would be the point of painting anything?

    Message: 45313
    Author: $ John Henry
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Blaspheme
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 18:30:41

    Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
      -Hienlen

    Swing 'Dat Hamma
     -John Henry

    Message: 45314
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James/colors
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 19:34:16

    For a contrast!! -- ANN ---

    Message: 45315
    Author: $ Laura Lansberry
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Julian Jaynes
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 20:11:44

    Nice man ... Harvard Prof.  Wrote to him once, we exchanged a couple of
    letters, very approachable man. Discussed facets of the bicameral mind
    relative to a current developing awareness not found in everyone, much as
    introspective thought replaced the muses ...
    I think your debates are a bit cutesy. All that rancor and anger from both
    Christians and Atheists trying to prove their opinions are Divine.
    You who have never been wrong in your life cast the first stone ... and then
    the rest of us will know who to throw stones back at.
    Love you all ... I vote for an ART BOARD ... which is why I visited and now
    GOETZ is the vote? Who cares?

    Message: 45316
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Lippard's deduction
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 20:30:23

    You would be right if you had omniscience concerning all that was taking
    place in the ancient world - but you don't.  You can look at all the data
    concerning what is and what is not in your room - you do not know the names
    and addresses of everyone who lived in Galilee or Judea two millenia ago.
    Watch your assumptions Jim - they are glaringly obvious.
         As to the "genre" of the gospels - true, the gospels contain preaching,
    stories, etc., but don't forget that the events of the gospel are
    intricately tied to historical events, people, and places.  Indeed, when
    Paul went out preaching the gospel he did not say "come have the same
    experience I have had" he said "this happened in history - you can check it
    out - go talk to the 500+ witnesses of the resurrection of the Lord."
         And finally, do you really think that the Iliad is of the same "genre"
    as Acts?  Seriously?
    James>>>

    Message: 45317
    Author: $ Traci Sibel
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Holy Blood/Grail
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 22:52:36

    Where does one find more info on this?

    Message: 45318
    Author: $ Carol Graham
    Category: Question?
    Subject: rod
    Date: 07/24/87  Time: 23:51:03

    Since there is no God in your concept, why do you
    continually lay the blame on God for all of the
    world's woes?

    If your were God, you would not allow little children
    to be hurt, nor would you allow all these people to
    starve, ad infinitum in your arguments all these years.
    How many times I have read your other argument concerning
    a god who would put some of his children in heaven and they
    will all ignore the ones suffering eternally in hell.

    Gosh, for one who keeps telling us that he is evolving, I
    haven't seen one bit of new thought in any of your posts.
    How ma

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