### Apollo BBS Archive - March 10, 1989

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 5301
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod Bias
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 17:58:35

            We found a $10.00 bill in our driveway one day. Both Cliff and I
    knew who it came from and why it was there (God can do things like that, you
    know). We rushed to Apollo right away and made Him a member.

    Message: 5302
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 18:00:57

            I would not need my storehouse of weapons in Heaven, but I can play
    with them. I have been such a good Christian that God is going to allow me
    to keep on shooting at my very own shooting range in the sky.
            Next to being in God's company, shooting is heaven.

    Message: 5303
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 19:32:54

      Well done!
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 5301
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod Bias
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 17:58:35

            We found a $10.00 bill in our driveway one day. Both Cliff and I
    knew who it came from and why it was there (God can do things like that, you
    know). We rushed to Apollo right away and made Him a member.

    Message: 5302
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 18:00:57

            I would not need my storehouse of weapons in Heaven, but I can play
    with them. I have been such a good Christian that God is going to allow me
    to keep on shooting at my very own shooting range in the sky.
            Next to being in God's company, shooting is heaven.

    Message: 5303
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 19:32:54

      Well done!
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    The outer COSmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 2933
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: pulling plugs
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 18:11:41

            I do not want to be totally dependant on anyone in my old age or due
    to an accident. I would want my plug pulled.
            Everyone is witness to my statement and I am of sound mind.
            Untill the mind can be better prolonged and the body fixed a little
    better than Medical Science does now ..... I am not interested.

            Now, is someone going to bring up the subject on where the
    Handicapped fit into all of this?
            Having a handicap is one thing, being totally dependant on someone
    is another.

    Message: 2934
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: last
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 22:29:32

    Agreed.  Many handicapped have lives that have meaning.  But when the ole
    mind goes and no one is home then pull the plug.  -Rod

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 57476
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul.1of5
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 15:24:13

      You complain that I failed to address the availability of weapons to
    outlaws and the crimes which they commit with them. You also continue to
    say that the AK-47 and Uzi, etc. are legally available with little if any
    prerequisites.
      Every gun sold retail in the U.S. is subject to registration under the
    Federal Gun Control Act of 1968. The buyer must provide identification,
    prove residency in that state, and sign several statements of eligibility
    concerning felony convictions, drug use, mental disability, etc. Some
    states, like California, also require a waiting period and background
    check.
      Every FULLY automatic weapon sold in the U.S. is subject to the controls
    I described in the earlier messages, administered by the Bureau of Alcohol,
    Tobacco, and Firearms under a law that has existed since 1934. As you have
    been told several times, these legally sold weapons have not been used in
    any crimes.
      It is obvious that all this makes it unlikely that a person would buy a
    gun, especially a fully automatic one, from a gun dealer with the intent of
    using it to commit a crime unless that person had no intention of trying
    to escape. Since this has had absolutely no effect in stopping crime it is
    obvious that criminals have other sources for weapons and that the current
    level of infringement, not to mention the constantly proposed increases in
    it, serve no useful purpose whatsoever with regard to crime.

      I took the trouble to provide some information about the firearms which
    are in question here in hopes of penetrating some of the media induced fog
    surrounding them. The AK-47 is a military FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon. It is
    not available to criminals by any means in the U.S. which can be effected
    by further gun legislation. Stopping the heavily regulated sales of them to
    collectors would not help, as none of those sales has ever resulted in a
    crime. Stopping the sale of semi-automatic look-a-likes would not help
    because criminals don't have to buy retail anyway, and there is no way to
    outlaw these look-a-likes without also outlawing all the functionally
    similar firearms which have been in legal use in this country for the last
    ninety years. To ban these firearms would make paper criminals out of the
    millions of Americans who own clip-fed self-loading guns. Police effort
    would then be required to track down those who would refuse to comply with
    the ban, and do you doubt than many would? The police would suffer a double
    injury as their manpower was called away from real police work to hunt down
    the otherwise law-abiding victims of this travesty, while the nation's
    respect for law and the police would reach a low comparable to that seen
    during Prohibition. It would have zero effect on real outlaws, as they can
    get illegal guns smuggled into the country as easily as they do illegal
    drugs.

      You say that I have ignored the facts about 'ever increasing numbers' of
    people killed by gangs. I did post the totals for gang related homicide for
    Phoenix for the last two years. Maybe you didn't notice that since it wasn't
    an 'ever increasing number' as the fixated media has declared. I don't have
    such figures for L.A., but I would not take the media's word for it
    there either without some hard facts to back it up, considering that they
    are currently in such a frenzy over this that no contradictory information
    is likely to be heard.
      During the time I was in California last month incidents of police
    over-reaction to alleged gang activities exceeded reports of actual gang
    warfare by about two to one as nearly as I could tell. The police are
    under severe pressure to show results against the gangs with all this media
    hype going on.
      Even if we accept everything that has been said about gangs running
    rampant and killing bystanders on a daily basis with machine guns, what
    would be a correct course of action? Would it be to put useless restrictions
    on those who abide by the law, or to look for ways to actually improve the
    situation? If law enforcement and the criminal justice system have not dealt
    with this problem, then why not? That is the issue which needs to be
    addressed, and the gyrations of the gun confiscation lobby are only clouding
    the issue and making real progress that much less likely.

      If there has been a failure of law enforcement and the criminal justice
    system to deal with the situation, then what are the reasons for that
    failure?
      Some would say that the police are outgunned by these gangs and can not
    cope with them. If this were true then we would be in serious trouble
    because any criminal who could get ahold of a machine gun would be
    practically untouchable by the police. In fact, of course, the police
    are armed appropriately to their mission and rely more on their tactics and
    communications than mere firepower in the hands of every officer.
      The patrol officer wears a handgun because it is the handiest and least
    obtrusive weapon available, which suits the fact that the great majority of
    their work is routine and involves interaction with the public. When a
    shooting situation develops the officers usually have a shotgun in their
    patrol car and they can use communications to arrange everything from
    backup cars, helicopters, SWAT teams with snipers and machine guns, or a
    tank if required. It is true that a lone officer who is away from his car
    and out of communications is outgunned by a criminal who has a rifle, but
    this has always been true. If the police can no longer accept this state of
    affairs then they can always issue more effective weapons for each officer
    or patrol car, but they can not realistically hope to eliminate the rifle
    from the hands of the criminal.

      Another possible reason for the failure of law enforcement and the
    criminal justice system to control gang activities is the difficulty they
    have in keeping these offenders off the street once they have been arrested.
    Repeat offenders commit the majority of violent crime, but they are often
    returned to the street after little or no incarceration. Prison overcrowding
    is the most heard excuse for this. There is a great need to build more
    prisons and/or make sure that the prison space we do have is used to keep
    dangerous criminals off the street. If our prisons and jails weren't filled
    with people who did not rob or attack anyone, but only offered to buy or
    sell drugs or sex for instance, then the existing system would be much more
    effective at discouraging these violent repeat offenders.
      Whether it is mainly because of prison overcrowding or other factors, the
    fact remains that the criminal justice system is so ineffective that this
    alone could dissuade the police from working too hard or taking too much
    risk in order to arrest dangerous criminals. They know that it doesn't do
    any good in the long run. Nobody will testify in court because they know
    that they will soon be targeted when the criminal hits the street again.
      The man who shot those children in Stockton, Patrick Edward Purdy, had
    been arrested for felony crimes numerous times before, but they never
    bothered to indict him. A police psychiatrist's warning that Purdy was a
    danger to himself and others meant nothing to them and he was always
    released.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 57481
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Alan H>
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 15:28:42

      The myth that more people are hurt or killed in gun accidents than are
    saved by having a gun is well known, but easily dismissed. Guns rank very
    low on the list of articles resulting in accidental injury (check it out
    yourself), but every case is treated like a major news story. If I shot
    myself by accident today you would probably hear all about it on the news
    tonight, but if I had an equal or worse accident with something else, like
    a stairway, you would probably never know. The emphasis is on the other
    side in cases of self defense, with a positive result usually unreported.
    The great majority of cases where someone uses a gun to protect themselves
    do not result in any shots being fired. The presence of the gun alone is
    often all that is required to change the mind of a thief or rapist. Whether
    shots are fired or not, the most likely attitude of the gun owner will be
    to avoid reporting the incident if at all possible to avoid publicity,
    harassment, gun confiscation, etc.
      When statistics are trotted out to show that more accidents happen than
    defenses, they are comparing something which is always reported because
    someone was hurt, to something which is almost never reported because
    someone avoided being hurt.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 57482
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ryan/Dante's Tomb
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 16:23:15

      Probably a bunch of those crazy Moslems upset about Dante's portrayal of
    Mohammed in Hell -- stuck in with the heretics, and split nearly in two from
    the top of his head down, and with his entrals hanging out.
      But, "false poet"?  They may not appreciate what he wrote, but that
    doesn't keep him from being a true poet.
      Buncha dorks.

         =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

    Message: 57483
    Author: Richard Kenders
    Category: Religion
    Subject: DEATH AND TAXES
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 17:22:50

    DEATH AND TAXES*
    LIFE IS LIKE A TAX COLLECTOR: YOU SIT ON THE EDGE WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO
    KILL YOU.

    Message: 57484
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 18:27:00

            I tried to get you on your beeper to let you know that I found
    something that might work on your sinus condition. By the way, you left you
    LA Raiders cap at my house.

    Message: 57485
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean, guns
    Date: 03/10/89  Time: 22:41:41

            Good posts.  You made an interesting point when you said that if
    guns were outlawed in the U.S. they would be smuggled in just like drugs
    How true, how true.  In that event, the only armed people would be law
    enforcement and criminals.  The average citizen would be at the mercy of
    both of these groups.  I would think that crime, especially that of a violent
    nature would increase by a large margin, if that ever happened.
            Let's hope that does not happen.  Let's try solving some of
    civilizations problems so that guns will no longer be a necessary item.  It
    is just sick thinking that guns are needed.  What a world and I had to land
    here.  Oh well.         -Rod

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