### Apollo BBS Archive - August 2, 1990

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     1:Cliff, just delete the last few lines of the Smith message.  Leave my name
     2:but everything after that kill.

    Message: 68149
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod: 68103-07
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 04:27:36

    Your sarcasm is both biting and eminently reasonable.  Go get 'em!

    Message: 68150
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: time
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 04:29:16

    Incidentally, I still maintain that the only thing affected in clocks by
    gravity is the clocks themselves, not any physical entity called time.

    Message: 68151
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Steve/68110
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 04:52:02

    Maybe I'm missing your point, but you certainly *seem* to be missing mine.
    The doppler effect in sound, the shift in frequency as a car blowing its
    horn passing you, is caused by wave compression.  The doppler shift is an
    apparent change in the frequency of the sound, and this is due to relative
    motion between the car and the observer.  If the observer were not walking
    but instead were travelling in another car at the same speed and in the same
    direction, no doppler shift would occur.
    Suppose your car is distant from me and your horn, motionless relative to
    me, has a frequency of 344 Hz.  Let's assume the the temperature to be such
    that the speed of sound is 344 meters/sec (pretty mild temperature).
    Successive areas of compression are 1 meter apart.  Next, suppose that you
    are moving toward a stationary me at a rate of 34.4 m/s, or 1/10 the speed
    of sound.  One region of compression is moving ahead of you, and by the time
    it has moved a meter another region of compression has been emitted by your
    horn.  By that time, your car has moved forward a tenth of a meter and the
    second region of compression is only .9 meters behind the first.  This
    happens for all successive regions of compression, assuming you are not
    accelerating.  So then, sound waves from your horn reach my eardrums .9
    meters apart and in one second 344/.9 or 382 of them strike my eardrums.  In
    your car, you receive 344 regions of compression in one second.
    On the other ha if you are receding from me, then by the time a region of
    compression has moved a meter toward me and a new region of compression is
    due, you would have moved a tenth of a meter away, and the two areas of
    compression would be 1.1 meters apart.

    The frequency would then be 344/1.1 or 312 Hz.  If you passed me at this
    speed, then, the sound *I* heard would shift from a frequency of 382 Hz
    as you approached and passed and then to 312 Hz as you passed and receded.

    Now, all of this is due to the fact that sound waves do NOT have a constant
    speed relative to the observer.  If you are chasing a sound wave and you
    have accelerated from, say, zero to past the speed of sound, you will
    create a sonic boom as you pass the sound wave.

    Light, according to the special theory of relativity, is funky.  It DOES
    move with a constant speed relative to the observer.  Therefore, you can
    never get any closer to a light wave by increasing your speed, since the
    speed of light is constant relative to yours -- whatever that may be!!
    If special relativity were to apply to two heavenly bodies not in uniform
    relative motion (it doesn't), there is no way for a doppler shift (of light)
    to occur.  Right?

    Message: 68153
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 05:40:55

     I can't believe that you actually said something nice to me!
     I think I will not only print it out, but edge it in gold, frame it and
    hang it in a prominent place!(Hmm. Let's see now. How about the bathroom
    wall?) (Thanks, sweetie. You're not so bad either.)

    Message: 68154
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: OF SIG/Jeff L.
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 05:42:51

     Mad Max is not old enough to be an Old Fart, Annie! After all, we do have
    our standards to maintain, you know!

    Message: 68155
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: time dilation
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 06:24:15

    Well, I think I'm about ready to eat my words regarding the impracticality
    of measuring relativistic time dilation by the use of an airplane.

    The time dilation is given by the FitzGerald ratio, where the time lapse (t)
    observed on a body moving at a given velocity relative to the time lapse at
    rest (t0) is as follows:

    t = t0*SQR(1 - v^2/c^2)

    Check my math, guys.  This should not be too hard assuming you have a
    calculator with enough tolerance (I used MATHCAD):

    Assuming that the plane is travelling at the speed of sound, and assuming
    again that this speed is 344 meters/sec (actually, it would be slightly
    different at that altitude and hence temperature), we require the square
    root of (1 minus .344^2/300,000^2), which equals .999999999999343.
    Taking t0 as a unit, say one hour, the difference would be the preceding
    decimal fraction of an hour.  In terms of seconds, then, since there are
    3600 seconds in an hour, the time lapse would equal
    3600 - 3600 * .999999999999343, which equals a little over two billionths of
    a second.  A Cesium clock has a frequency of 9,192,631,770 Hz, so dividing
    the time lapse into the frequency of the clock, we can say that in an hour
    of flight in a plane travelling at sonic speed, the time lapse is
    approximately 4 atomic oscillations.  I assume this can be detected?

    It should be obvious from the FitzGerald equation that gravity has nothing
    to do with time dilation, only relative velocity.  If a time lapse occurs as
    measured by a clock on the top of a building relative to a clock on the
    ground floor below it, it is not because of a change in gravitational
    attraction; it is because the clock on the top of the building has a
    slightly higher linear velocity than the clock below it.  However, I think
    that this would be so slight than not even modern science with atomic clocks
    could detect it in a thousand years.  Agreed?

     Furthermore, on the subject of time dilation, we must consider what we mean
    by time.  I define time as the interval between two occuring events, as
    measured by other occuring events.  So then, if I say that I am having a
    glass of water now, and that I had another glass an hour before this, I am
    measuring the interval between the two events, my two drinks of water, with
    other events, in the case of an electric clock, the oscillations of a quartz
    crystal between the two events.
    But such a measurement invariably depends on some steady periodic motion,
    whether the turning of the Earth, the dripping of water, the oscillation of
    a pendulum, or the vibration of an atom.  However, due to the changes of
    measured length and mass with increasing velocity, the slowing of the period
    of any periodic motion must occur.  But this is merely an effect on the
    physical material of the clock, if only temporary.  Time does not exist as
    anything except a measurement.  It is an abstraction.

    Message: 68157
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on Kids
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:23:01

    Yeah - Cliff's kids are all screwed up - clean and neat, polite, they mind.
    They don't do drugs. They handle themselves like young adults. Geeze - bad
    guys all around er? Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68158
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:26:09

    If there is a hell - I believe it's right here on earth - of course, if
    there's a Heaven, then it's someplace wonderful, beautiful and pain free, no
    worries or cares - for an eternity! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68159
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Doggie
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:28:49

    Jeff L. just looked and acted like good 'old fart' material to me! (grin)
                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68160
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C. on hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:31:29

    I solved the problem of hell a long time ago - just stopped believing in it!
    Of course Heaven is another story .....! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68161
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: For sale
    Subject: For free
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:50:33

    Does anyone out there have a Beta they watch movies on? If so, I have a gift
    for you - two movies and one blank tape - the movies are Saturday Night
    Fever - uncut version worth $29.95 used once - and the original King Kong -
    also the uncut version worth $59.00 and used only once too. The blank tape
    is blank - I think - recording time 90 minutes. Leave me E-mail if
    interested. -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. Better hurry because I'm putting this on the JCCS BBS in a couple of
    days if no one wants them here.

    Message: 68162
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: John/Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:55:05

    I think you will find references in the NT to place of fire that the
    unbeliever will be cast. Also remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich
    man.

    Message: 68163
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: John/pursue
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:55:40

    If not here, where ?

    Message: 68164
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/clocks
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 07:58:07

    That is correct. However, time is defined by it's measuring instruments.

    Message: 68165
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/doppler
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:00:46

    you are confusing the difference between wave propagation and the distance
    between two wave crests. Light propagates through space at a constant
    velocity, C, regardless of the motion of the observer. The distance between
    two wave crests, in time, does depend upon the relative motion of the
    observer.

    Message: 68166
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/time dilation
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:01:48

    Yes, it can be detected.

    Message: 68167
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/dilation 2
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:07:09

    Gravity has an effect on clocks due to the theory of general relativity.
    Special relativity effects are due to relative motion. If you think of
    your light source as a clock, with the ticks being the crest of the waves,
    a light source can be red-shifted due to relative velocity (doppler effect)
    or due to gravitational effects (general relativity.). As you can see a
    clock moving away from you ticks slower relative to your position. A clock
    in a gravitational field ticks slower also (due to general relativity
    effects). Some creationists have used general relativity as an argument for
    a smaller universe, since cosmologists have said that the greater the
    red-shift of a star, the farther away it is (because it's velocity is
    greater the farther away it is) Some creationists argue that the redshift
    can be due to gravitational effects and therefore those stars are not as far
    away as they seem.

    Message: 68168
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:12:36

    Re:  "What unprovable things should we believe ?"

    Everyone believes some "unprovable" things.  Rod believes there is no life
    after death.  You and I believe there is life after death, but we disagree
    on the particulars.  What happens after death is "unprovable".  I imagine
    that if you got 50 people together you could come up with 50 different
    "unprovable" things that 49 of the people would disagree with.  I guess we
    will find out when we die.  If Rod is right, it won't matter much to you and
    me, but if Rod is wrong, well . . .

    Message: 68169
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:15:35

    Re:  "Also remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man."

    That wasn't hell; that was Hades.  I know some translations use the word
    "hell", but in the Greek it is Hades.

    I can just hear the gears grinding in Rod's head now.  Ha!

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 68170
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: mass
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:42:15

    But what do we mean by mass?  I think of mass as the amount of matter
    something has, but that isn't the way it's being used here at all.  Mass is
    being equated to inertia.  If F=MA and force remains constant, but
    acceleration (a change in velocity or direction) gets smaller, as it
    demonstratably does with particles moving at speeds near that of light, then
    M must be getting bigger.  But mass in this sense is only a measure of
    inertia.  It is commonly assumed that the more matter something has, the
    more inertia it possesses.  This is true, I think, but the reverse is not
    necessarily so: clearly, motion does not create matter; yet M, as measured
    by inertia, increases.

    On the subject of the speed of light, I don't see anything in relativity
    theory which requires that this is the maximum attainable speed.  It only
    says it is the maximum measurable speed.

    Light, incidentally, for those of you who aren't aware of it, is only one
    tiny type of electromagnetic radiation, or EMR.  Electromagnetic radiation
    is simply something radiated by an oscillating electric charge.  Oscillating
    electric charges create magnetic fields.  Hence, electromagnetic.  All EMR
    travels at the speed of light.  This includes radio waves, X-rays,
    microwaves, and so on.  So the magical speed of light is really the magical
    speed of EMR, and possibly other things we haven't yet detected.

    Message: 68171
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/time
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:45:09

    Yes, time is defined by its measuring instruments.  Just as distance is
    defined by its.  That does not makes inches any more of a field or
    independent entity than time.

    Message: 68172
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Roger/doppler
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:56:12

    How can the distance between two wave crests be affected by the observer's
    motion if each and every wave moves with the same speed relative to the
    observer?  If each wave moves at a constant speed relative to the observer,
    then clearly, no motion of the observer will serve to compress or rarify the
    waves, and hence the distance between then will not alter.  Think about it,
    Roger.  If light is a wave, and light has a constant velocity relative to
    the observer, then each wave must maintain the same distance relative to any
    other wave, because the speed of any one of the waves is constant relative
    to any other wave (since another wave may be considered an "observer".
    The fact that light is of different wavelengths is attributable to the
    periodicity of the source which emits each wave.  That does not mean,
    however, that the individual waves in light of a given wavelength can change
    their distances; not if the speed of light is relative to the observer.

    Message: 68173
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/68167
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 08:59:06

    Ok, I haven't gotten to that yet.  In fact, I'm jumping around the rest of
    it.  But it's a lot of fun.

    Message: 68174
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 09:19:13

    As for hell on earth:  sure.  Since I don't believe it exists as another
    place in another dimention after death, and the people who thought it up are
    on the earth, where else could it be?

    I can't believe NO one is responding to this.

    Message: 68175
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Richard S. (Rod)
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 09:55:16

            My Mom and Dad are not of my belief... And I could care less.
    They will not be physically punished...but yet, they won't know God.
    There is the possibility they will get to do it OVER again on Earth till
    they get it right.  (and Earth is Hell)  In fact, reading Rod's posts is
    Hell!  Proof it exists  (grin)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68176
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: SHOP CMD
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 10:27:32

            See 'Miz Dee's' new ad in the  cmd.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68177
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: War!
    Subject: Myname
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 10:43:19

    This is in reference to post 68148.
    I DO NOT APPRECIATE this at all, it has taken me quite a few months of
    BBSing to build up my alias of Mad Max, and I do not appreciate someone else
    using it, in any form or way. To the person who wrote that post:
    Please stop using my alias, if you do not have the imagination to get your
    own alias, please refrain from using mine. If you do not stop, I will ask
    the SYOP's from the boards were I log on to not let you log in with my
    alias. Please, get a life and a mind of your own, and stop using other
    people's.
    Thank you
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68178
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 12:40:05

    I was taught the version of hell Rod speaks of in the churches and Bible
    studies I went to in my childhood.  It's not just something Rod is
    making up.  However, teaching children your religious views is NOT child
    abuse.

    Message: 68179
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: hades
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 12:46:20

    It was hotter than hell, tho.

    Message: 68180
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/mass
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 12:50:52

    no, relativity sets the limit to the maximum obtainable speed, for the
    mass of an object is infinite a c. It it approaches infinity at c, then in
    order to accelerate a mass whose mass is increasing asymptotically , an
    infinite amount of energy is needed to accelerate the object to c. Now, if
    an object is already going faster than the speed of light, it can never
    reach c from that direction but can obtain infinite velocities. Look at the
    equations, and you will see what I mean. BTW, if you solve for mass in that
    case, you find that it is "imaginary", ie, mass is iM, not M.

    Message: 68181
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/quanta
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 12:55:28

    Light is a particle. Light is sent is packets of energy called quanta.
    Hence,
    quantum electrodynamics. Associated with this quanta is the energy of the
    light particle, or photon. The energy of the quanta depends upon the
    frequency of the photon. The photon moves through space at a constant
    velocity, c. The frequency of the packet is determined the relative velocity
    of the packet with respect to the observer.

    Enter category,  for list:Q

    You chose Question?

    Subject:Bob T.

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Show just one message where Rod said he did not believe there was no life
     2:after death.  Just one.
     3:
     4:

    Edit command ( for help):S

    Saving message...
    The message is 68182

    Message: 68182
    Author: Ralph Thorogood  NOTE: Me
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Bob T.
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 15:38:40

    Show just one message where Rod said he did not believe there wasn't life
    after death.  Just one.

    Message: 68183
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sandi/Capturing
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 15:40:27

    Sorry, Sandi, but I don't know anything about Procomm.  Maybe
    someone else can offer some specific suggestions, but virtually
    all communications programs have the capability to take the stuff
    coming in over the modem and save it to disk.  Look for a
    "capture" or "file" or "buffer" function.

    Message: 68184
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JB/Roger
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 15:41:04

    I hate to say it, guys, but I'm really enjoying the physics
    discussion you have going -- even if it is just about to get over
    my head.

    Message: 68185
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: buffer
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 16:13:56

    Does anybody out there know about Procomm? I don't want to take up
    unnecessary time hanging around when I could read stuff off line...
    ...anyone?

    I know you guys are going to argue(physics is not something that I know
    anything about at all) but isn't it hard to prove anything that has no
    physical existence? Does hell have a physical existence?

    Message: 68187
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 17:28:43

      Where is Hell? Right here on earth. Hell was invented as was heaven by
    despots as a means of control over the peons. Hell, as a threat to behavior
    and heaven as an excuse to treat people like dirt here so if the're good
    they get rewarded later. Want to see the math?
        Hell = control, heaven = excuse...ha ha

    Message: 68188
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 20:15:32

            It is bad enough to have you insult and deride what I believe; it
    is, however, too much when you describe that which you THINK I believe, and
    then throw mud at it. The crowning blow is your refusal (or inability) to
    follow any rules of order, debate, logic, or even grammar.  --John C.--

    Message: 68189
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa/Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 20:23:17

            Getting to a discussion of Hell is a Helluva problem without first
    breaking in some groundwork. Those who believe in no life after death cannot
    conceive of or be convinced of hell. Those who do believe in a life after
    death must have some concept of personal spiritual entity, and it is
    therefore pretty easy to imagine that entity in almost any type of
    non-material situation.      --John C--

    Message: 68190
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Downloading
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 20:37:52

            Sandi the new kid on the block has an excellent question, and I need
    help on the same problem.  I don't know Procomm, I use Telix, and I have an
    ancient Tandy 1000 with 640 K of memory and two 5 1/4 inch drives. Is it
    possible for me (and for Sandi with her gear) to log on to Apollo, transmit
    the whole thing to disk, read at my leisure and get mad at Rod in comfort,
    then compose brilliant retorts and fire them back by logging on again? Are
    there directions for this in the Telix instructions?
            Please don't recommend to me that I go ask the man at the Radio
    Shack, okay?      --John C.--

    Message: 68191
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 21:11:49

            Many modem (term) programs have a 'buffer' that you can collect
    data in and then save that 'buffer' to disk in ASCII form.  Then you can
    take any good word processor and read the file off line at your leisure.
    I however do not know anything about 'Procomm', so I do not know if it has a
    buffer...but since it is a popular program from what I hear, I would think
    there is one there somewhere.  Will some user out there who has Procomm,
    please give a lesson on Buffer use!

            I use 'First Choice' a lot and it has a savable buffer... and it has
    an auto log in where you can set it up (like Bill Burkett said) where you
    answer the 'Is your name Correct' question with an <$> at log in.  The rest
    is automaticly done for you, right down to getting you your mail.

            I hope this helps or gets someone on the right track.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68192
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C. on Rod
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 21:21:22

            I talked to Rod today, and tried to convince him that 'insults' are
    not needed for him to explain his point of view.  Let's see if I had any
    effect!

            I like Rod, but he gets me so angry sometimes... it hurts.  I assure
    you, he is nicer in person.... and more understandable.

            We need a 'Meet Rod Gt' at some soda place.    And if he insults us
    then, we can make 'Rod Meat' out of him!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 68193
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: Help for telix user
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 21:38:17

    Well I use telix, and telix has a capture function , hit the function key:
    Alt L for capture, and telix will automaticly create a capture file.
    The file will be called telix.cap. You should then see a Cap on your status
    line.then go to your configure telix which is Alt O and set the path for the
    capture file, depending on what drive you want it on. then after you log of
    telix has a build in text editor, at Alt A, it's selfexplanatory.
    If you need any more help, let me know. Sandi, procom should have the same
    functions basicly, try to get a copy of telix, it's a far superiour piece of
    software. But if you still need help, let me know and I'll dig out my procom
    and see what you have to do. The best place to get a copy of telix is with
    the book Dvorak's guide to telecommunications, you can get it at the price
    club for $26, it comes with all the software, best investment I ever made.
    You can also get it at Tri Tek, the northwest corner of dunlap and 23rd ave,
    across from DeVry. Well I hope that help some.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68194
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / "Questions"
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 22:51:41

       Rod, it is hard to answer a 'question' that isn't a question at all. In
    fact, the two statements contradict themselves. Perhaps you should define
    your 'questions' a little mo' bettah.

    Message: 68195
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans / Baby Feeding
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 22:54:14

       I don't see where breast-feeding is more inconvenient than
    bottle-feeding. With bottles, you have to mix the formula (if you are using
    dry), or pour the liquid formula from the can into the bottles. When it is
    feeding time, you have to heat the formula slightly, and then hold the baby
    while you position the bottle.

       With breast-feeding, all you have to do is open up the nursing bra and
    let the kid have at it.

    Message: 68196
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Bob
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:03:15

       Judging from your response to Bob (as well as all of your posts
    concerning religion), I feel that it is safe to say that God is infintely
    more tolerant than Rod Williams. He's put up with all your childish rants
    without sending nary a lightning bolt that you dare him to strike you with.
    Now THAT'S patience!
       God reserves his judgment for the Last Day. You've already tried us in
    your own mind and found us guilty of being some sort of sick, demented
    wierdos. Kind of a mental kangaroo court, I would say.
       Now, before you get all thin-skinned on me and start posting another
    five-message diatribe of hatred, it is helpful to note that there is a non-
    imposing smile on my face as I write this.
       Lighten up, man.

    Message: 68197
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:15:27

       Well, Rod. It seems that of all of the users on this board that even care
    about this discussion, YOU are the only one that seems to have this bizarre
    fixation on hell. That your mind dwells so much upon it makes me wonder
    about the soundness of your mental condition. Ask a Christian, any
    Christian here on Apollo, if they are afraid of hell, or if the concept of
    hell has 'screwed them up.' You are going to meet every contact with a
    resounding 'NO!' A believer in Christ doesn't worry about hell.
       For all of your paranoid sputtering, it seems like you are the one who is
    messed up in the head because of hell.

    Message: 68198
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John on Rod
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:18:55

       As I see it, it is child abuse to raise a child WITHOUT teaching them
    about God.
       To take that responsibility, and ignore it or worse yet, despise it, is a
    disservice to God and to the child that it is your duty to raise.

    Daryl

    Message: 68199
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Rod
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:19:50

       Do you mind if I applaud?

    Message: 68200
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on John
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:24:46

    >>Anyone who teaches that unless they believe a certain way or they will be
    >>in hell is a sick, sick puppy. And I reckon, from what you said, that you
    >>need treatment.

    Anyone who teaches that unless they DON'T believe a certain way, they will
    'need treatment' is a pompous a$$. And I reckon from what you said, that
    it's time to refill the TP dispenser.

    Message: 68201
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Judaism
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:28:51

    >>The religion that performs [human sacrifice] is rooted deep within
    >>Christianity.

    I guess this just goes to show how ignorant you are to Scripture. ANIMAL
    sacrifice to atone for sin was the practice before Christ.

    Message: 68202
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: More to Rod
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:39:41

    >>And the poor children, many of them will grow up carrying this torment
    >>around with them that there exists a living eternal hell.

       Wrong again, Rod. Many of them will grow up living in the peace that
    comes from the knowledge that there exists, a living God that loves them.

       You are so caught up in the lie, Rod. You think you know so much about
    God, Christ, and Christians. But the truth is that you know nothing, or more
    correctly, less than nothing. For the person that knows nothing about a
    subject has the desire to learn about it, while the person that knows less
    than nothing is so filled to the brim with himself that he cannot learn;
    there is no room in the cup to pour in anything good. (By saying that you
    know less than nothing, I meant in regard to the Christian religion.)

       You will never come to know God unless you stop trying to put words in
    His mouth, and listen while He speaks for Himself. You will find quite a
    difference in the message. I don't think this will ever happen, but I've
    heard of greater miracles. Saul, for example.

       God's mercy and grace are extended to you, yes even you, during your
    entire lifetime. If you die with your back to him, there is no chance to
    correct your mistake; the damage is done. A lifetime can be so long, and yet
    it can be so short.

    Message: 68203
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on hell
    Date: 08/02/90  Time: 23:44:00

       I do not believe that this is so. Hell is being cut off from the presence
    of God, and we are not. Hell is not knowing any joy; not only does joy exist
    here, but also love and happiness. Of course they do not exist in the
    abundance that we feel they should here, but then again we will not know
    perfect joy until we reach heaven.

    Message: 68204
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Seperation
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:01:26

       Seperation from God is the source of the pain and sorrow. In this world,
    none of us are seperated from God's presence. Even someone like Rod; Christ
    died for him too. Christ died the death that we as sinful beings deserve, so
    that we would not have to face it. Only Christ knows the feeling of being
    seperated from the Father. With the weight of the sins of the world cast
    upon him, he was seperated from the Father's presence. The pain was so
    unbearable, he cried out "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani?" ('My God, my God,
    why have you forsaken me?') Some people look at Christ crucified, and think,
    "well, it is certainly a nasty way to die, but I can think of more painful
    ways." The truth is that one cannot. Dying in a state of seperation from God
    is the most painful way to die. Christ willingly suffered it for us just so
    we wouldn't have to.
       But the one that denies Christ, or worse, proudly mocks him, denies the
    gift that was bought for him with precious blood. He denies the One that
    loved him enough to die for him. He denies the Father that sent him. And he
    denies the Spirit that produces faith. He has his entire life. Once he dies,
    what is God to do? He extended His hand during the person's entire life, and
    He was turned away. God issued a warning, and in order to be true, He must
    follow through. God doesn't lie. He doesn't break a promise, either.

    Message: 68205
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on Spirit
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:07:47

       When Christ spoke of the unforgivable sin, he spoke to those who said
    that he was casting out spirits through the power of Satan. Their hearts
    were hard. God alone, through his Spirit, gives us the desire to follow Him.
    If we continue to have that desire, we are to reassure ourselves that the
    Holy Spirit is still with us. The blasphemy spoken of in this passage is not
    mere words.
       Before I really understood, I worried about that passage, too. Satan took
    great pains to keep my misunderstanding of that passage in my mind. The
    thought tormented me; was speaking against the Holy Spirit necessary? Or was
    thinking about it enough? Now that I understand, I look back on that time as
    something to drive me to understand, REALLY understand, the Bible.

    Message: 68206
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on Hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:15:18

       I do not plan to raise our daughter to believe that Santa or the Easter
    Bunny really exist. These are things that I really know to be false, and
    furthermore, they tend to obscure the real meaning of these holidays.
    Because of this, I intend to share with her how the accounts of Santa and
    E.B., came about. But I do not desire to purposely lie to her about
    something I know is not true.
       But I do plan to teach her about God, because I personally believe that
    He is very real. I plan to teach her about His love, and His teachings, and
    His sacrifice for our sake. She will know about hell (someone scrape Rod off
    of the ceiling), but she will certainly not fear it, nor will she be
    threatened with it when she does something wrong.
       The reason I plan on telling her the truth about "Santa" and the "Easter
    Bunny" is because I want her to know that I am sincere when I say that Jesus
    is real. I cannot lie to her, and honestly expect her to believe that I'm
    telling the truth about Jesus when I lied about the other two guys.

    Message: 68207
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Cliff
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:18:17

    >>Cliff: To pass a law that you can't talk about the Devil or Hell is
    >>       utterly stupid!

    >>  Bob: Sad but true...

       I started writing a story along these line some time ago. I posted it on
    a board, and was told by another Christian that it was too down of a story.
    Upon reflection, it seems too true. I might start writing it again.

    Message: 68208
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger on Hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:21:19

       But how can we judge God on purely human terms? How can we say that God
    exists? If you are going to take the argument, you have to take it all the
    way.
       As for me, when Christ talks, I listen. ("Well, my 'broker' is Jesus, and
    Jesus says...")

    Message: 68209
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans on Pastors
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:29:29

    >>It is a world gone mad with many people passing onto others that unless
    >>they believe like they or their pastor interprets then eternal damnation
    >>is awaiting.

    My pastor does not teach that. I believe, along with him, that there are
    true believers in every Christian congregation; Baptist, Lutheran,
    Calvinist, Mennonite, you name it. But only God knows exactly who they are.

    It reminds me of a joke he told me once. A man entered heaven, and met the
    person that welcomed everyone. He took the man through the many rooms in
    God's house. As he opened one door, he saw a group of people sitting in
    reverent silence. The greeter whispered, 'These are the Catholics.' Further
    down the hall the greeter opened another door. Loud music poured out, and
    people were standing and shaking up a storm. 'These are the Baptists,' he
    explained. As they came upon the next door, the greeter warned, 'Sssh! Be
    quiet. These are the Lutherans, and they think they are the only ones here!'

    Message: 68210
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on Hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:35:45

       Your comment hinges on the opinion that the Bible is nothing more than an
    invention of man.

       Apart from that, I don't really know exactly how to reply to it.

    Message: 68211
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:37:14

       Do you believe in reincarnation?

       I ask because of your 'There is the possibility they will get to do it
    OVER again on Earth till they get it right' statement.

    Message: 68212
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John on Rod
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:39:34

       Rod's forte' is building straw men so he can knock them down and feel
    important. You just need to get used to it.

    Message: 68213
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Radio Shack
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 00:44:32

    "Excuse me, I need to know how to store BBS messages to disk, so that I can
    read them at my leisure, and write responses offline."

    "Oh, I know exactly what you need." (rustle rustle) "Here it is."

    "Uh...this is a cassette head cleaner."

    "Is it? Oh, my mistake. Let me see here." (rustle crunch rustle) "Sorry
    about the mixup. Here's what you need."

    "This is another head cleaner, in fact, exactly like the first one."

    "Well, you said you were having problems with your cassette deck, didn't
    you?"

    "No, I need to store data from a BBS onto my ...grrrr... my disk drive.
    Wait, this is getting nowhere. Can I talk to the manager?"

    "I am the manager. Can I help you?"

    (Thud.)

    Message: 68214
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/relativity
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 01:37:34

    Let me do some more reading on this (maybe a little more organized).  I'll
    raise some more questions at that time, perhaps.

    Message: 68215
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bill Burkett/68184
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 01:41:35

    Glad you're enjoying it.  You're in good company, though; the word "layman"
    describes me to a T where this stuff is concerned.

    Message: 68216
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C. on Rod
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 01:43:54

    Heaven forbid he should use poor grammar.  Of course, I can understand your
    refusal to discuss the matter with someone who confuses transitive and
    intransitive verb forms.

    Message: 68217
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: automated bbsing
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 01:47:50

    In fact, some terminal programs have a built in macro language which will
    allow you to have your program log in at a predetermined time, capture all
    new messages, log off, and save the buffer to a file.
    You can use any ascii text editor to compose a message off-line.  Make sure
    the line length doesn't exceed Apollo's.  Then log on and at the first line
    of Apollo's text editor (the first line of the message) do an ascii
    transmission of the text file.

    Message: 68218
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 01:49:24

    Nursing bra?  They make special bras for nursing mothers?  What, little
    flaps or something?

    Message: 68219
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Red Dwarf/hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:32:55

    Bravo dude.  You must be a carpenter because you seem to be good at hitting
    nails on the head.

    Message: 68220
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg/life after
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:35:10

    I have never claimed that once physical death takes place that there is
    nothing after that.  However I do claim that I do not know what transpires
    at that, or after that event.  I don't know, you don't know although I
    suspect that you are going to say that some book told you what happens.

    Where have you ever heard me say that?

    Message: 68221
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Grandma/hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:35:42

    How about just locking her up for a fortnight as a warning.

    Message: 68222
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Head Quasar/hell
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:37:07

    You seem to think it is a good idea that many youngsters are growing up with
    warped brains.  Does this give you a better chance in the marketplace or
    something?

    Message: 68223
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/rules
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:38:20

    This iconoclast thanks you for the compliment.

    Message: 68224
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 02:50:32

    Yes, but I am better than God because I couldn't even conceive of a hell,
    not ever for one day.

    If I created something from my mind/being then that which I created would be
    a part of me.....a part of me, get it?  Do you understand simple logic?

    These creations that I have made, in my ugly image no less, aren't nearly as
    clever or intelligent as I (see if you can follow this).  So they screw up
    and how do I handle something I made when they screw up?  Why I bake them in
    hell forever or as one weird individual put it, I don't have anything to do
    with them because I am angry and they need the punishment, right?

    And also suppose that I already know their future, which further complicated
    the matter, then I know ahead of time just which one(s) are more likely to
    screw up and end up either without me or in eternal torment.  Brilliant.

    Again suppose that I created them and made hell on their planet...good idea,
    DON'T YOU THINK?, and let them, those that I have created in my image,
    really suffer in many ways until they, each and every one learn that it was
    I who created them and it was my main, number one son that they also must
    believe in before I reward those little, much less intelligent, creation
    with ETERNAL HEAVEN.  Isn't that a beautiful story, Daryl?
    Therefore, and consequently I am better than this God you talk about because
    anything I ever created I would LOVE and give them every benefit and see
    that they have fun.  I would not let one of the little ones go flying
    through an auto windshield at 40mph or let millions die each year in great
    depression.

    NOR would I command or expect them to worship me (I would feel like a fool)
    or believe that I had a son that died for their sins.  Ridiculous.

    And if I were this all powerful creator and I found parents warping the
    minds of the little ones with bull crap about eternal punishment I would
    think that I had goofed in my creation ability, not the other way around.

    But if push came to shove and I saw that I had erred and my little critters
    were having a bad time then I would do the modern thing, recycle, not
    punish.

    It is a pity that you and some of the others have been brainwashed or have
    allowed yourselves to be.  Because I have a fondness for you and many others
    I would like to eliminate such evil thinking from the mind of humankind.

    (Somehow humankind seems to be the wrong word if you know what I mean.)

                                    A thousand smiles,
                                            Rod

    Message: 68226
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/fixation
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 03:00:41

    You've got to be joking.  I have no fixation on hell, my boy.  I only wished
    to discuss it as a topic of conversation.  Is this, somehow, okay with
    Daryl?

    If I got into a debate on toothpaste then you could say that I have a
    fixation on toothpaste.  Your logic is dripping.

    I wouldn't expect for any Christian on here to be afraid of going to hell.

    In their mental illnesses they are going to heaven for an eternity of good
    times being with their particular god of the sect they happen to believe in.

    Mental condition:  Hell, I am a trooper and love every moment of this.  It
    is particular interesting to see the nerves that I hit and note the
    reactions.

    Message: 68227
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: all
    Date: 08/03/90  Time: 03:09:30

    This god I hear descriptions of must be some type of evil mental midget.
    Hmmmm, or could it be that the people are only describing themselves?

    To send mail to operator use
    First name:MELISSA
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    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Sorry I didn't get to answer your letter of yesterday.  I wanted to tell you
     2:that after 3 months of going without sex that when I came back it was like
     3:starting over, so to speak.  Real good.
     4:
     5:By the way, what do you know of Sandi Marlin?