### Apollo BBS Archive - November 26, 1988

    Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1951
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: ? on Shootout GT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 01:13:58

    So who the fastest reloading thing that everyone was arguing about...  As I
    recall it had something to do with Sandy and her revolver and someone else
    with a clip...??????????

    ----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8

    Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:EQ

    You chose Question?

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:        Aren't you on the wrong SIG?
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 1952
    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1584
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: TV/Movies
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 11/20/88  Time: 00:16:43

    I saw a movie the other night...
    Some guy played a mistreated moron who went out to change the world
    by wearing black and sticking knives into canned food.
    Said it had something to do with reversing time to correct mankinds
    mistakes.
    "B" rated movie circa 1968 ...looked awfully like you.

                            -Mike

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:        Get a life, you geek!
     2:                Better yet, get a mind while you're at it.
     3:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 1585

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 4789
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: J.T.
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:12:54

            I did not change my Phone number... I made a mistake... It is
    corrected now...thank!

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    Message: 4790
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: For sale
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:40:55

    I have a 2MB Everex EMS board Populated with 1.4 MB of 256k 120ns Chips...
    It is for an XT but the chips are fast enough for a 12 Mhz AT.  It is all 5
    or 6 months old...  It works great, and I have the box, packing and the
    original docs and disks...

         $550.00 OBO....  This board and chips are worth over $650.00 NEW!

    Leave mail if you or a friend are interested...
    ----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8

    Message: 4791
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Chris / last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 01:15:10

    That particular board can be purchased for $329.99 out of
    "Networking News" - a popular radio and electronics parts catalogue.
    Good until Jan 1989
                            -Mike

    Message: 4792
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike last...
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 02:08:11

    I'd probably go ten to one that they are 'temporarily out of stock'!!!  I
    can buy the chips wholesale and they would cost me $12 apiece!!!!

    I am getting an AT and I won't need the expanded memory.

    ----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8

    Message: 4793
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Shoot-out
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 07:59:27

    From the entry cliff made, I am going on the assumption that the Great
    Apollo Shoot-out has been rained out.  Too bad.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 4794
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: sHOOT OUT
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 08:47:11

    iT IS A WONDERFUL DAY. Lets go shooting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     Ihave dogs buns onion musturd ammo. and am all fired up. So lets GO!!
    the sun is shining.....
                     Shoot them all Ralph

    Message: 4795
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Shootout
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 10:40:51

      Weather looks good. I am going whether anyone else shows up or not.
        See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 4796
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: GT
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 11:30:56

    Well, the sun is bright and a few users still seem to want the Shoot'out....
    So, I will give it a shot and be there....

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    Message: 4797
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Shoot out
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 12:01:47

    I'll be there too
    1pm at the corner of I-17 turn off and the road to Black Canyon shooting
    range. Look for a Gray S-10 Blazer.

                    -Mike

    Message: 4798
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 18:24:23

            We found the Blazer.... and shot same....

    It was fun...but I can't hear myself think yet.  (Oh, you say that is
    normal)

    Everyone shot well, as no one got shot!

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    Message: 4799
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Shootout
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 20:49:13

       Welcome to the set of 'Armageddon Now!'. Today we are filming some of the
    film's climactic battle scenes here in the Arizona desert. The producer,
    director, and caterer (Cliff, Sandy, and Gary Jones) have just returned from
    scouting locations with the film's dazzling young co-stars (Mike and Vickie
    Carter). Back on the set, the rest of the cast (Dean Hathaway and Ralph
    Blehm) have arrived, so now we can get under way. Quiet on the set!
       Curiously enough, the prop department has seen fit to equip Mr. Jones for
    a period piece, complete with Model A Ford pickup and antique weapons to
    match. Perhaps this is to symbolize the antiquity of Christian traditions.
    Mr Blehm will play the cantankerous old sidekick in the tradition of Gabby
    Hayes and Fuzzy St. John.
       In the first scene, guns blaze and Ayatollas are slaughtered by wave
    after wave of righteous firepower from Christian and atheist alike.

       In the following scenes we will see such amazing displays as: Sandy 'the
    Bowling Pin Queen' defending her crown successfully against all comers,
    Sandy 'the Bowling Pin Queen' instructing Vickie in rapid fire kneecap
    shooting from 3 foot range, Sandy 'the Bowling Pin Queen' whining and
    yelping at every shot as she empties a 44 Magnum through a tight pattern,
    Cliff 'Grizzly Clifford' teaching the fear of God to an Anti-Freeze jug with
    12 Gauge slugs, and the incredible special effects extravaganza of exploding
    targets.
       We hope you have enjoyed today's on-location tour, and be sure to see
    this film when it has been digitized and uploaded. The scene of Cliff
    staring at his target in disbelief is worth the price of admission by
    itself.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 4801
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 21:39:05

            Thank you, Thank you, Thank you .............

    (Sandy nows takes a HUMBLE bow)

    Autographs anyone?

    Message: 4802
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Shoot out
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 21:57:14

            Apollo's canceled Shoot-out was a success ......
    Ralph might think different in that he was unable to shoot us all (better
    luck next time Ralph).
            Gary played chef inbetween shots. His hot dogs were tasty and
    Ralph's buns were soft (hehehe). I, in the meantime, was being chastised for
    bringing the wrong kind of 'buns'. My punishment was to eat a naked hot
    dog decorated with a sleek streak of mustard.
            Mike is still wondering how I downed my bowling pins in less than
    6 shots (Mike was on his 13th shot and only downed 1 or 2). VICTORY for
    the Wheel gun! hehe
            Dean played his humble self doing his best not to hit the bullseye
    too many times. Dean threw his 'humble-self' wardrobe off at the end of the
    shoot and blasted the exploding bullseyes not once but TWICE! Dean
    immediately put on his 'humble-self' countenance and blushed.
            Vickie now can blast the heart out of any wrong-doer at close range
    and at a distance can make any man sing soprano.
            Cliff, in the meantime, looks at his target is disbelief.

    Message: 4803
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Shootout
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 23:53:08

    While wheel-gun - touting Cliff still fumbles with the speedloader,
    his wife and expert marksman, Sandy, shoves a mustard-encrusted pair of
    lips smack into his for missing all 6 shots.
    Meanwhile, dead-eye Dean blows death wish 5 out of hollywood and into the
    20th century with amazing feats performed by a "whisper on the trigger"
    .44 bazzoka and rips the face off Sandy as she tries to plug bigger holes
    into her target. Yes , ladies and gentlemen, Old fart Ralph really has
    a "JAM" of a .22 ! And Gary shoots a mean hotdog.
    All in all, the targets, including the religious paraphenalia, were blown
    into next Christmas where we'll see clips of paper touting the Ayatollah
    with a tame snake on his forehead.
    Until the next exploding target, This is Robbin Leach, speaking as loud as
    I can and I DON'T know why........

    Mike

    Message: 4804
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Old Fart
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 00:53:11

            I am still trying to figure out if Ralph had a short rifle or a long
    pistol.  What was that thing?

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
    The outer COSmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 2380
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: PS: To last
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 19:20:00

    "....DAMN!"
                            - Prince

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 55679
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Chomsky
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:03:13

      A second question is whether Kennan is correct in
    suggesting that "human rights, the raising of the living
    standards, and democratization" should be dismissed as
    irrelevant to American foreign policy (except when points can
    be scored in "ideological warfare").  A review of the
    historical record suggests a different picture: that US
    policy has not been neutral in these regards, but has sought
    to destroy human rights, to lower living standards, and to
    prevent democratization, often with considerable passion and
    violence.  The reasons are not difficult to discern:
    commitment to these values is often at odds with the Fifth
    Freedom.  Preservation of the Fifth Freedom quite regularly
    requires measures that tend to harm human rights and living
    standards, and with meaningful steps toward democracy,
    governments will tend to be more responsive to domestic
    needs, thus threatening our control of the human and material
    resources that must be at our command if we are to "maintain
    the disparity."  We therefore quite regularly oppose human
    rights and raising of the living standards in practice, and
    we oppose meaningful democracy in much of the world to ensure
    that the Fifth Freedom will not be threatened.  We return in
    chapter 3, section 8, to a closer look at these specific
    issues.  In chapter 1, we took note of the means to which we
    habitually resort when the Fifth Freedom is challanged.

    Chapter 3 will be devoted to a more detailed examination of
    the facts of the matter, which can hardly be comforting to a
    person of any honesty and integrity.
      Kennan extended the same thinking to the Western Hemisphere
    in a briefing for Latin American ambassadors in 1950.  He
    observed that a major concern of American foreign policy must
    be "The protection of our raw materials" - in fact, more
    broadly, the material and human resources that are "ours" by
    right.  To protect our resources, we must combat a dangerous
    heresy which, as US intelligence noted, had been spreading
    through Latin America for many years: "The wide acceptance of
    the idea that the government has direct responsibility for
    the welfare of the people," what is called "Communism,"
    whatever the political commitments of its advocates, in US
    political theology.

    Message: 55681
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT/55675
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:19:09

    When talking 2.5 BILLION believers then post a number like 2.4 MILLION
    as nonreligious... the second number sounds IN-significant to me!

    Message: 55682
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod / 55676
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:20:23

            You are damn right you're not a Christian...  Your hate backs that
    up!

    Message: 55683
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on Children
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 18:29:30

            If you are so concerned for Children, why did you PUSH drugs in the
    past?   Your morals are weak if it means money in your pocket I plainly see.
    I find it hard to believe the phase "In God We Trust" could brain wash
    anyone.  Get a LIFE ROD...  Look at the good side of life!

    *=* In God We Trust *=* God Bless *=*

    Message: 55684
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/License To Sin?
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 19:15:51

    Anyone who claims to be a Christian, yet continues to lie, rob, cheat,
    steal, kill, or deceive, is lying. Or is very demented in his/her thinking.
    You must realize your wrongdoings, and make a conscious effort to stop or
    change them for the better. In continuing to commit these atrocities, the
    person is in effect not asking forgiveness for those sins. And by not
    wanting to have those sins forgiven, they will probably be judged by those
    unforgiven sins. Of course, this only applies if you believe in God. Void
    where prohibited by mind.

    Message: 55685
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alternatives/Rod
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 19:16:59

    Re: Alternatives to handling "religious currency."

    Write checks.

    Message: 55686
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Religion
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 20:04:09

      What I want is a government that is neutral with regard to religion. If
    that sounds totalitarian to you then you have a strange definition of
    totalitarianism.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 55687
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 20:07:18

      Cliff didn't lose a bet to me and he doesn't owe me any money. You can not
    weasel out of your debt to me by telling me to collect from someone else. I
    still expect payment from you. I would have paid you long ago if I had lost
    and I made it clear that this was a serious bet at the time it was made.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 55688
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 20:55:59

    Thanks for the info. You can always be counted on to come up with the
    figures.

    Message: 55689
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean on neutral
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 21:49:17

    You talk of the government like it was made up of Un-people...  However the
    government is just plain people, hence, By the People For the people......
    You can't see that?  The people are in majority, Christian!
    Now if the MAJORITY are proud of being Christian, we are going to show it.
    Now enter the Minority....  you tell us (the Majority) we can not rejoice or
    anything that might let others know we are Christian...?  I see this as
    suppression....  Suppression that YOU want the Government to enforce.
    If you succeed, we will have a totalitarian Government.  All I am waiting
    for you to do now, is demand we burn all Bibles, since you fear the printed
    words of "In God We Trust".
            If that ever happened in this Christian Nation, I would whole
    heartily support the overthrow of the government.  I deeply resent and am
    offended that the minority try to undo the morals this nation is based on.
            We Christians know darn well that yesterday it was the schools,
    today it is "Currency"...and tomorrow it would be something else, the Jim
    Lippards of the world will never stop till the word Christian no longer
    exists.  That you can take to the bank!

    *=* In God We Christians Trust *=*

    P.S. If I were the minority, I would not offended by others and their
    beliefs.

    Message: 55690
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 22:08:39

    Sorry, that's 2.4 billion.  It was a typo.  Not all of them are
    nonreligious; here is how the remainder break down:  806 million
    nonreligious, 648 million Hindus, 307 million Buddhists, 220 million
    atheists (I'm not sure how these differ from nonreligious), 203 million
    followers of Chinese folk religions, 110 million new religionists (whatever
    that means), 97 million tribal religionists, 16 million Sikhs, 13 million
    Shamanists, 6 million Confucians, 5 million Baha'is, 3 million Shintoists,
    and 3 million Jains.

    Message: 55691
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 22:34:08

    I challenge anyone to provide a shred of historical evidence that the
    religious freedom and establishment clauses were included in the First
    Amendment in order to protect atheists with delicate sensibilities from
    being offended.  A bit of historical perspective is in order here:  The
    United States was settled by devout Christians of various denominations:
    Puritans in Massachusetts, Catholics in Maryland, Episcopalians in Virginia,
    and so forth.  Even for many years after the ratification of the Bill of
    Rights, individual states had established churches.  (The First Amendment
    did not apply to the states until the 14th Amendment was ratified after the
    Civil War.)  The originiator of the idea of separation of church and state
    was Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island.  Williams was exiled from
    Puritan Massachusetts, because he was too religious for the taste of the
    colonial authorities.  Williams believed that if church and state were not
    separated, the state would meddle in the affairs of the church.  The "wall
    of separation" is to protect the church from the state, not the state from
    the church.

    Of course, things have changed since the adoption of the Bill of Rights.
    There is no longer such a thing as a state church anywhere in the United
    States, and, with increased religious diversity (due to increased
    immigration, advances in communications technology, and other sociological
    changes), the government quite properly distances itself from endorsements
    of any particular religion (organized prayer public schools, for example).
    But the idea that the government cannot even acknowledge the importance
    of religion in American culture is an esoteric notion of atheistic wise-guys
    and liberal elitists.

    It is perfectly proper for the government to acknowledge the
    importance that religion has played in American history by placing the
    motto "In God We Trust" on our currency.  Atheists cannot reasonably
    claim that their right to freedom of religion is violated by the
    appearance of this motto. ** In the first place, atheists have no
    religion, so it cannot be against their religion** to use currency with
    the motto.  Atheists would have a legitimate complaint if they were
    forced to participate in a religious ritual (such as praying), but
    using currency that says "In God We Trust" is not a ritual of any
    religion.  It would be frivolous if I were to complain that, because I
    am a Republican, my right to vote is being violated by the appearance
    of Andrew Jackson, Grover Cleveland, Franklin Roosevelt, and John F.
    Kennedy on American currency.  I am free to vote Republican; these
    presidents, all Democrats appear on our currency because they played an
    important role in the history of my country.  A more precise analogy
    would be for someone who had never voted in his life to complain that
    his right to vote was being violated by the appearance of former
    presidents on currency.

    Message: 55693
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 23:22:05

    What is the date of your World Almanac from which you get the figures for
    the membership numbers of various religions?

    Message: 55694
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: Backups & PO
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 00:50:24

            The Apollo Post Office has gone over 40,000 in delivered private
    mail.

            For you worry warts:  I backed up the compleat hard drive tonight.
    That was 297 files over to 27 floppy diskettes, taking me 10 Minutes and 17
    seconds for a total of 9977856 bytes.

            Before I did the BACKUP using FASTBACK, I did a surface analysis
    using PCTOOLS Deluxe and after that, I ran COMPRESS.
            Sleep easy Ann..... Apollo is safe!

    *=* In God And Apollo We Trust *=*

    Message: 55695
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 01:08:58

    BULL$#!+ it took you 10 minutes..
    It may have taken 10 minutes to back the hard-drive up, but the other 55
    were spent documenting it.

                    -Mike

    Message: 55696
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 01:11:00

    Rod would love to see things others cherish and know to be good dissolve
    into his self-loving world of hate and drugs. Thats why he's
    so consumed and spiteful about and with those things dealing with God or
    the Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    Needless to say, he'll get his way... when he's dead.

                    -Mike

    Message: 55697
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Last...
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 02:05:32

    I hate to disagree with you but 10 minute to 10 meg is about right if not
    slow!   Plus I don't think Cliff is out to BULL$#!+ ANYONE...!!!

    ----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8

    Message: 55698
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: DEAN
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 04:00:19

    Cliff is pulling your leg.  I doubted that I would see you for awhile, so I
    gave him your ten dollars.  (Unfortunately I forgot to mention this to him,
    so he thought it was *his* ten dollars.)  Don't worry about the money.

    Message: 55699
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff and Carter
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 04:47:20

    Rod no longer uses drugs, so find something else to use against him. Anyway,
    you two have been singing the same song for far too long --- it's about time
    you argue with him over his convictions, not his vices.

    Message: 55700
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: A question
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 08:40:22

    Is there anyone out there that knows the law re: someone stealing something
    from you? Here is what my husband told me ------ he knows of a man that had
    over $700 of amunition stolen from him - it was sitting in his yard - out in
    the 'toolies' in New River. My husband's helper saw a guy over on this man's
    property at the time the goods were taken. To make a long story short, the
    man that had the stuff stolen knew the guy that did it and told the cop ---
    the cop said "it was not a criminal offence as long as he knew the man that
    did it - it was a Civil case and he must sue the man if he wants that man
    punished"! The man in turn asked the policeman that if someone he knew came
    and stole his car, wouldn't the police arrest him? The answer was no - that
    they could go get the car, but as long as the man knew this person, the
    police would do nothing as far as punishment! What I want to know is - is
    this really the way the law reads? That if indeed someone you knew came and
    ripped you off - you'd have to take him to court to see that he didn't get
    away with it???? I'm really curious about this. Can someone shed any light?

                           -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 55701
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff & Dean
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 09:27:46

    Cliff, you seem (to me at least) to be painting all of us Christians with a
    broad stroke. In the Constitution, it says that ALL men are created equal.
    Now, I agree that it is a minor point (currency, that is); you also know
    that I am a Christian, joyous in my return to the faith. But still, currency
    is an official and legal means for the transfer of funds for products or
    services rendered, for ALL people. In America, that currency is the dollar.
    Now, given that the dollar is legal tender for all debts, public and
    private, and is the primary governmental form of funds transfer between it's
    businesses, institutions, organizations, and private citizens, it should not
    be a means of espousing a particular religious belief. That is what
    witnessing by the particular church body is all about. The dollar bill (in
    it's varying denominations) should be for the buying and selling of goods
    and services, payments of debts and dividends, and the other functions of
    money, and nothing else. It is not meant to be a religious tract, and with
    the multitudes of different beliefs that are protected by Freedom of
    Religion, it could NEVER be a means of effectively satisfying every
    particular religion, faith, or sect. Most of all, IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE
    ANYTHING OF THE SORT. What do you think of pieces of paper with the words
    "IN GOD WE TRUST" being used to buy and sell cocaine and heroin? What do you
    think of a piece of paper with the words "IN GOD WE TRUST" being given to a
    prostitute in payment for a "trick?" What do you think of a piece of paper
    with the words "IN GOD WE TRUST" being used to pay for pornographic
    materials? Personally, I find the degradation of God's name through the use
    of currency with this phrase on it for such things to be abhorrent.

    Also, Cliff mentioned that if he were in the minority, he would not be
    offended by the actions of the majority. Well, you are in the "MAJORITY"
    now, and the actions of the "MINORITY" are offending you! How am I to
    believe that if the tables were turned, and you were the minority, that
    you would sit humbly by, quiet and obedient, while a self-proclaimed
    majority made all your decisions for you? Or claimed to be better or to have
    more privileges than you? I sincerely doubt it. You are screaming at Dean,
    that since he is for taking the phrase "IN GOD WE TRUST" off the currency,
    that he probably wants to burn all the Bibles too, since they say the same
    thing. THE BIBLE AND OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CURRENCY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
    The Bible is currently published by non-governmental religious organizations
    and private companies for the purpose of spreading the word of God. I have
    yet to see a Holy Bible with the words "U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE" on
    the inside page. The dollar on the other hand, is printed by the U.S.
    Treasury Department, as (virtually) the sole means of payment for ANYTHING
    in our country. IT *IS* PRINTED BY THE GOVERNMENT. So, your claim that Dean
    would want to burn bibles in addition to changing the currency is illogical,
    unbelievable, and untrue. (That is, unless Dean logs on to refute this
    message.) Anyhow, my viewpoint is simple. Money is a means of payment. It
    pays for things legal as well as illegal (though the government would rather
    this not happen). However, the purchase of Earthly goods and delights (both
    legal and illegal, moral and morally detestable) should not be paid for with
    money that contains a phrase that could, potentially, mock or blaspheme
    God's holy name.

    Finally, I believe that the fruits of personal labor (money) should be
    returned, in part, to your church or place of worship, if you worship.
    However, the purchase of illegal goods, drugs, prostitution, pornography,
    and other earthly evils, should not be paid for (in my opinion) with
    currency bearing God's holy name. Sure, money can be good or bad, depending
    on who is using it, and for what. But if that possibility that it could be
    used for ill-gotten gains or purchases, then God's holy name should be kept
    out of it, for His sake.

    I'm looking at it from the standpoint of the Lord. (Pardon my frankness
    here, but) how would you feel if you found that someone was using the pages
    of the Holy Bible as toilet paper? Wouldn't you be greatly offended?
    (Apparently not, since you are answering my questions as I write this).
    Anyhow, I do. And I feel similarly that God's name should never be used when
    it is not in His benefit.

    Message: 55704
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 10:32:00

    Boy are you lost...again you assume the majority is going to commit some
    crime and pay for it with money.  Bibles have been used to smuggle drugs...
    WoW!, by your logic we should NOT print Bibles.  You think God is a
    weakling?  You think he has to be PROTECTED?

    God WANTS his name spread....  not to the already that know of him, but to
    the ones who don't and need to be saved...

    Again, this United States Government is BY the people, and FOR the people.
    It is not made up by cold lifeless monsters, it is People...lots of them,
    and most of them are Christian and it is through Christians that the Lord's
    name is spread.

    Read your Bible...If you don't have one, I will see if I can find my old
    Government Issue Bible from when I was in the service.  It does not say
    "Printed by the US Government" (but nether do coins)...

    Government Issue; This New Testament is presented by your Chaplain and comes
    from the American Bible Society acting as the agent of the churches of
    America.  It is an emblem of the continuing concern of your church for your
    moral and spiritual well-being while you serve with the Defense Forces of
    our Nation.

    Obviously, I found it.

    Message: 55705
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Westfall
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 11:12:07

    Your argument sounds like the product of a demented religious fanatic,
    although I suspect it is actually just a way of straddling the fence and
    being fashionably secular while not alienating your Christian friends, of
    being holier than Christians and less holy than atheists at once.  I will
    assume you are expressing your sincere beliefs, however, since it is more
    fun to argue with you that way.

    You have a very strange conception of God.  God, according to you, objects
    to his name being used on currency, because that currency is sometimes used
    for sinful purposes:  paying prostitutes, purchasing drugs and pornography,
    and so forth.  I suppose God would also object, then, to the placement of
    Bibles in hotel rooms (where prostitutes usually conduct their trade) and
    the use of chaplains in the Congress (where all sorts of corruption goes on)
    and the military (because war is sinful).  He also might object to religious
    TV broadcasts (since television can also be used to watch pornographic
    videocassettes) and gospel music records (since they might be sold in record
    stores alongside rock 'n' roll albums).  Indeed, if we carry your argument
    to its logical conclusion, God would object to anyone so much as thinking
    about him, since the basic premise of Christianity is that man is inherently
    sinful.

    Of course, your view is not the view of any Christian I have ever heard of.
    Christians believe that man is sinful and must be forgiven through the grace
    of God.  The people who need God's grace most, according to this belief, are
    the very people whom you claim God wishes nothing to do with:  the
    prostitutes, the drug addicts, the other dregs of society.  When you say you
    believe God shuns these people, what you are really saying, it seems to me,
    is that you shun these people and think your God is too good for them.  That
    is a remarkable un-Christian attitude.

    The idea that commerce in drugs, pornography, and prostitution are somehow
    less wrong if the currency used does not bear the motto "In God We Trust" is
    silly on its face.  Does anyone seriously argue that it's OK to deal drugs
    if you only take checks (which do not bear the motto)?

    It is also my contention, as I have explained earlier, that the motto "In
    God We Trust" is of historical and cultural, rather than religious,
    significance.  It is simply a recognition of the importance that religion
    plays in American history and culture.  The suggestion that this recognition
    should be denied because you find some aspects of our culture unsavory is
    certainly novel.  You geek.

    Message: 55707
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CLiff
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 11:28:23

    Cliff says:
    Now enter the Minority....  you tell us (the Majority) we can not rejoice
    or anything that might let others know we are Christian...?  I see this as
    suppression....  Suppression that YOU want the Government to enforce.
    If you succeed, we will have a totalitarian Government.  All I am waiting
    for you to do now, is demand we burn all Bibles, since you fear the
    printed words of "In God We Trust".

      Cliff, the first thing I ever said about "IN GOD WE TRUST" being on
    currency was that as long as so many people couldn't stand to be without it,
    I could accept it. I am not telling you that I want the government to
    suppress you, your rejoicing, or your pride. I am telling you that it is a
    mistake for you to use the state to express your faith for you. In spite of
    what you say to the contrary, I agree with Daryl that you wouldn't stand by
    quietly if the state chose another religion to recognize instead of your
    own.
    You appear to be threatened by any individual who opposes any of your
    religious doctrine judging from the way you react to it. So, why have the
    government promote ANY religion? Lets have freedom of religion and practice
    it on our own time without government involvement. Are you afraid that your
    religion couldn't stand without state help?

       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 55708
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: LAst several
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 11:59:24

    Although I agree that Church and "STATE" should remain separated (Now we
    don't want inquisitions to start all over do we?), I find it hard to
    believe that the words "IN GOD WE TRUST" , once removed will satisfy the
    screeching minorities. They'll then find some other nook or cranny
    of moral turpitude (in their eyes) and start another plague of unctuous
    finger pointing.
    While I whole heartedly believe that 99.9% of U.S. Citizens couldn't really
    give more than a moments consideration, there's always the undercurrents.
    They are those who fear moral juristiction, laws founded around family
    ideals and those founded upon precepts of the biblical laws.
    I don't think that they are really concerned about the words on a nickel,
    I think their concern is really for something else and this is just a
    symptom of it.
                            -Mike

    Message: 55709
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 12:46:16

    A point I was not able to eludicate upon earlier, but want to now. While I
    was typing in my last message, and asking if using the Bible for...let's say
    personal hygiene...would offend you, your responses came more or less like
    this:

    "Say someone were to use the bible as toilet paper..."

    (you typed) "it has been"

    "Does that offend you?"

    (you typed) "no"

    Now, with that viewpoint, how can you get so overly defensive about keeping
    "IN GOD WE TRUST" on currency? Sounds imbalanced to me.

    Message: 55710
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Chomsky
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 16:15:09

      From whom must we protect our "our raw materials"?  For
    the public, throughout our history we have been defending
    ourselves from one or another Evil Empire; ((until
    recently)), from the USSR.  In the real world, the enemy is
    the indigenous population which may attempt to use domestic
    resources for their own purposes, thus joining what the
    President called "the monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" to
    thwart our ends; President Kennedy, in this case.  Those who
    undertake this course may not be Soviet allies to begin with;
    in Latin America, they have commonly been Church-based
    self-help groups, advocates of capitalist democracy such as
    Juan Jose Arevalo in Guatemala, popular organizations of the
    sort defended by the martyred Archbishop Romero in El
    Salvador, and so on.  But they are likely to become Soviet
    clients, for the simple reason that they will have nowhere
    else to turn for protection against the violence that we
    regularly unleash against them.  This is a net gain for
    American policy, since it justifies the attacks we must carry
    out to destroy the conspiracy to steal our resources.  When
    the Fifth Freedom is threatened in its domains, the US
    regularly resorts to subversion, terror or direct aggression
    to restore it, declaring the target of these actions a
    Russian client and acting to make this required truth a
    reality.

      The Indochina wars are enlightening in this regard.  By
    the late 1940s, the US had committed itself to support the
    French effort to reconquer their former colony, having
    rejected repeated overtures from the Viet Minh, the
    anti-French resistance whom the State Department recognized
    in secret to be the representatives of Vietnamese
    nationalism; a favorable response might have permitted the
    Communist-led national movement to maintain its independence,
    thus undermining the official rationale for the US-French
    attack.  US intelligence was then assigned the task of
    demonstrating the required truth: that Vietnamese
    nationalists were simply agents of the "Commie-dominated
    bloc of slave states," in Dean Acheson's elegant phrase.
      Intelligence sought desperately to find links between Ho
    Chi Minh and his masters in the Kremlin or "Peiping"; either
    would do.  It failed.  State Department intelligence found
    evidence of "Kremlin-directed conspiracy...in virtually all
    countries except Vietnam," which appeared to be "an anomaly,"
    and found "surprisingly little direct cooperation between
    local Chinese Communists and the Viet Minh."  The problem,
    then, was to show how these facts demonstrated the required
    conclusion: that Ho was an agent of the Commie conspiracy.
      The problem was readily solved.  Perhaps "a special
    dispensation for the Vietnam government has been arranged in
    Moscow," presumably because Ho was such a loyal slave of his
    masters that they did not even have to provide direct
    guidance.  Later, a National Intelligence Estimate noted that
    "We are unable to determine whether Peiping or Moscow has
    ultimate responsibility for Viet Minh policy"; it is
    axiomatic that it must be one or the other.  One of the most
    astonishing revelations in the *Pentagon Papers* is that in
    a record of over two decades, the analysts were able to
    discover only one staff paper "which treats communist
    reactions primarily in terms of the separate national
    interests of Hanoi, Moscow, and Peiping, rather than
    primarily in terms of an overall communist strategy for which
    Hanoi is acting as an agent."  Even US intelligence, which is
    paid to get the facts straight, not to rave about the
    Commie-dominated bloc of slave states, was unable to perceive
    the possibility that the Vietnamese Communists might be
    guided even in part by their own interests and concerns
    rather than merely acting as agents of their foreign masters.

    Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Dean, Daryl

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
             Damn good messages.
                             Rod
    P.S.  Todd, I believe, did use part of the Bible as toilet paper at one time
    but I heard it was an emergency.  If all of the Bibles that were printed on
    rice paper were used to help feed the hungry, the world would be better off
    today.

            The ONLY reason I see for the "I.G.W.T." motto on currency is to
    help cut down on Christians counterfeiting.

           Yes, Cliff, I do hate everyone and everything.
                                    Love
                                    Rod

    The message is 55713

    Message: 55715
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Dean...
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 18:41:02

            But Dean, the words "In God We Trust" are not promoting MY religion
    per say.  It is very general to say the least.
            I still stand on the grounds if I was a worshipper of "Micky Mouse"
    and I knew there only was a minority following for Mickey, I would NOT be
    offended by the "In God We Trust" even if to me it was "In Mouse We Trust"
    that I held dear.   I know one thing...majority RULES!  Not always do the
    politicians I vote for get in... I may campaign against those that do get
    in, but once in I except the fact they are my representatives... as majority
    rules.  If the people of this Nation Voted to have "In God We Trust"
    removed.... that would be fine by me..... But it won't happen.

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    In Mouse We Trust!

    Just kidding...*=* In God and Apollo We Trust *=*   he he he

    Message: 55716
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Westfall...
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 18:43:59

            The Bible is only paper... it is what it means that is of value!
    God does not want "IDOLS", and that is what you have done with a book....
    made it into an "IDOL".   What form of Christian are you?

    *=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

    Message: 55717
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Tips & Tricks
    Subject:  &  on $ or SP
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 18:53:27

            The user doing a [$]tatus scan or a [S]can [P]rompted type scan
    reading messages need not hit the [R]-key or [C]-key to Read or Continue.
    You now can hit the [RETURN] key (Enter Key to some)  (CR Key to others) to
    do a read. In short, the [RETURN] key's default is [R]ead and [C]ontinue.

    *=* In God We Trust *=*

    Message: 55718
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 55684/Daryl
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 19:31:01

    You realize, of course, that by your additional stipulation regarding the
    definition of Christian, the Christian majority quickly erodes to a small
    minority.  (Another example of this modification of the use of "Christian"
    may be found in Cliff's 55716 questioning Daryl's Christianity.)

    Message: 55719
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 19:33:44

    You are of course right that the establishment clause was introduced to
    protect religion from the state.  Atheists do not claim that "their right to
    freedom of religion is violated by the appearance of this motto," but that
    the use of the motto constitutes establishment of religion.  The Supreme
    Court has ruled that "God" is an inherently religious concept (in the
    Louisiana creationism decision).

    Message: 55720
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 55659/Cliff
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 19:38:41

    Thank you, Cliff.  Not only need not one be a Christian to wish another
    well, one need not be a Christian to be thankful for one's
    state of being.

    Message: 55721
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 55642/Sandy
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 19:49:40

    My life does not exist solely to discredit the Christian religion--in fact,
    I haven't been doing any of that here lately.  This argument is political,
    not religious.
       For me, discrediting Christianity is something that's already been
    thoroughly done.  All I do is pass on parts of the relevant info, and it's
    just an amusing pastime.  Most of my time is spent doing other things, such
    as working on my Ph.D.

    Message: 55722
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 21:20:58

    What is the date of your World Almanac from which you get the figures for
    the membership numbers of various religions?

    Message: 55723
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 21:22:00

    Actually, it was an old LDS _Church News_.

    Message: 55724
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: TSR
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 22:00:16

    1988.

    Message: 55725
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lippard
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 22:01:54

    Dressing up a religious doctrine (creation) as science and teaching it in
    school clearly does constitute establishment of religion.  Acknowledging
    that religion was central to the settling and founding of our nation,
    whether by teaching the history of religion in America in public school, or
    by printing "In God We Trust" on our currency, does not.

    Message: 55727
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 23:33:55

            What type of Ph.D. are you working on?

            I was going for one in Microbiology, then I did a silly thing like
    getting married.

    Message: 55728
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 23:41:52

    Nit picking.

    Message: 55729
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lippard on God...
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 23:57:43

    Bull$#!+ !!!!

    You spend more time worrying about religious stomping than I spend
    paying taxes !

    Ph.d's (Piled Higher and Deeper) don't impress anyone, in fact, there
    are so many Ph'd graduates out there that can't pay off their student loans
    than there are Tax payer dollars to compensate for them.
    Get a real job.
                            -Mike

    Message: 55730
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: "I.G.W.T"
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 00:08:33

    According to Jim Lippard, all I would have to do to establish a religion
    is to write "In God We trust" somewhere.
    In fact, I could put that on my business card and establish my very own
    religion.

    Not only does the mainstream thought patterns by certain elements get
    confused here, they also miss the point.
    (1) Atheism, atheists have their own religion. They not only refuse or
    refute the prescence or existence of God, they themselves believe there
    is no need for one. Therefore this in itself is a religion. There cannot
    be a one-sided view of religion. It is defined by Webster and in our
    language as belief in God or (gods). As an Atheist, you beleive in no gods
    but in your own destinies....making your belief and thoughts directed
    toward SELF...the same way a Christian looks toward God.
    This constitutes a religion...looking toward something or someone for
    whatever reason., not necessarily a diety per se.

    If the words ; "In myself I trust" were written, the ACLU would bitch
    because their president wan't mentioned. Then Jim Lippard would attempt to
    gain glory by saying " No proof exists of you or yourself other than your
    being here..."
    All in all, if removed, it still wouldn't satisfy the wretchers, groaners
    and those who wrap a cloak of pseudo-intellectual sophistry around them and
    claim purity by humanistic values and self conscious evaluations.

    Message: 55731
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: Vote
    Subject: The Currnet ote
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 01:16:24

    The current ote is pretty close!

    ----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8

    Message: 55732
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 02:56:36

    Close to what?

    Message: 55733
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 03:15:10

            When were the figures you mentioned compiled?
                            Rod
    P.S.  Just bull$hitting.
    (figures on different religions)

    Message: 55734
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Politics
    Subject: IGWT
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 03:16:26

          It was said that since atheists have no religion, the motto, "In
    God We Trust", cannot be objected to by them.  First off, it is plain
    to see that the base of peoples religion or non-religion are beliefs.
          Everyone has those.  Stop twenty people on the street and out of
    those most all would say they were of the Christian faith.  After
    questioning them for some time one would have to come to the
    conclusion that although they hold a few things in common, that their
    belief system are quite different from one another.  Different people,
    different churches, different interpretations.
          So, you cannot say that atheists do not have beliefs because
    from my observance they have worked out harder sums than the followers
    of the organized religions.  It is easy to follow, to accept what is
    told you, the mind is at rest.  To go against convention, to challenge
    the taught ideas of life, to pursue and find logical answers to
    questions, leaves that person with a set of beliefs which are
    constantly being rethought and honed.  Atheists are thinkers, unless
    of course they were brow beaten into being one by their parents or
    government.  Many people of the so called religions were indeed beaten
    or brainwashed into their particular belief and usually at a young age
    although not always.  The first realization that physical death is a
    reality have sent many a person to a church.  After all, it is, in a
    sense, logical to go with what you have been hearing all your life.

          Just picking up a piece of money that was printed by our
    government can and does send the follower of popular ideas to a church
    rather than to an atheist meeting.  Atheists want new members just as
    much, if not more, than established religions.  We do not want the
    government, our government, to advertise for their cause.
          Thinking atheists know that when the religious begin thinking
    their own ideas and lose their crutches, that this world will begin to
    make important inroads to a better and safer world for ourselves and
    the little children, who at this present time in history, have to grow
    up in a scary hell hole because of an idiotic and illogical belief
    system.  Hypocrites love to pass around these little pieces of green
    paper, which have a motto that says, In God We Trust, and many times,
    even though the motto, our utilities are disconnected because we just
    did not have enough of them God notes.

                                    Rod

    Message: 55736
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Todd/wipe
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 03:18:22

            Did you select any specific part?

    Message: 55737
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim Lippard
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 03:20:07

            I guess Mike is correct.  See you in church.
    WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 513
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Christian Rod!
    Subject: Rod/Last
    Date: 11/25/88  Time: 19:21:28

    Well, if she likes it, then why complain?

    Don't you think she knew about it before she bought it? Heck of a "feature"
    if you ask me.

    Message: 514
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Annie the ASSp
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 04:01:02

    No, you're thinking of one of his other daughters.

    WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:ED

    You chose Daryl DickHead

    Subject:Doll

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:        Hey, I am well again.  No, my daughter and wife were at a church
     2:sale where handmade, homemade, dolls were being sold, among other things and
     3:the doll she purchased was only a dollar.  She did not undress it at the
     4:church but waited for the privacy of her boudoir.  I am sure, since she has
     5:never seen another doll with genitals before, or since, that this one would
     6:be no different.
     7:        I should go into her room, admist the 100 or so dolls she has and
     8:check all the female ones for 'creativity'.
     9:                Rod (JUST MAKING NOISE) Williams

    The message is 515

    Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:JT/Roger Williams

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:        I am related to him.
    The message is 55714

    Message: 516
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Christian Rod!
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/88  Time: 23:53:43

    Go fart in a box.

    Message: 517
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Mike Farter
    Subject: Okay
    Date: 11/27/88  Time: 03:21:01

            Do you live in a box.  I like beans.

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