### Apollo BBS Archive - June 13 - 18, 1991

    Mail from Apro Poet
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 19:26:47

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    I think your comments *while* you were spaced would be
    interesting too.  Just don't go shooting any more holes in
    trucks!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  Just kidding.  (Bad joke)
                                  Apro Poet
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I had an interesting experience, which I am going to post on the [B] in four
     2:parts.  The only part I did not include is that I smoked some pot and during
     3:that period (several hours) I was more in control of the pain.  I gained
     4:more of a positive, in control feeling with it (much more so than if I had
     5:eaten a quarter pounder with extra cheese, super fries and a large milk
     6:shake).
     7:
     8:Hasn't approximately 11,000 earth years passed since we last shifted our
     9:magnetic poles?
    10:
    11:I wonder how this period of life will be viewed by future civilizations once
    12:they dig us up?  What a bunch of fucking assholes or maybe, "those poor
    13:bastards, lost, lost, lost", are two possible answers they could give, I
    14:suppose.
    15:
    16:                                        Rod
    17:P.S.  I know how to start a revolution by ad.

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 1818
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Airplane exhaust
    Date: 06/12/91  Time: 23:13:38

            does not KILL you...unless the engine falls on your head.
    I was on a aircraft carrier... the polution you speak of is nill to
    non-existant.  It does not have the poisons in it as does cigarett smoke.
    The TAR that gums up your lungs and takes the oxygen away come only from
    high concentrations of tobacco smoke.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 1819
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: Ann on U.B.
    Date: 06/12/91  Time: 23:35:11

            Ann, I am getting real annoyed at your arrogance toward my Uncle
    Bob.  He was the ONLY one in my side of the family to welcome Sandy and come
    over and talk to us.  He was the ONLY one who really liked Sandy and did not
    look down his long nose at us.  For this I loved him more then I had ever
    before.  I felt and still feel very, very hurt about losing him.  To lose
    him to something as STUPID as a cigarette craving really has me angry.
    There is nothing made up...  Smoking killed him in a very painful death.

            Every thing you and Rod believe in about smoking plant material is a
    LIE.  You two are only fooling yourselves.  I don't care if you smoke
    yourselves to death tomorrow, I am not going to shed no more tears for
    anyone so stupid as to not see the facts.

            This other thing about you saying I smell the next door neighbor
    when he is smoking IN HIS HOUSE is another slanderious, hateful LIE
    fabricated in your head.   I only pick up his smoking when he is outside and
    the wind is blowing in my direction and when I have all the windows open.

            Every day when I pick up cigarette butts from my yard, I now think
    of you.  Aren't you pleased that I relate you to a dirty habit.  People who
    smoke seem to think my desert granite landscape is for their Cig Butts.

            I don't care anymore...  smoke yourself to death.

    Message: 1820
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie/1813
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 06:09:16

     Well, for one thing, the pollution caused by fuel consumption is released
    in outdoor air, and, to a great degree, is dissipated into the atmposphere.
    Besides, steps are being taken (i.e. oxygenated fuel, exhaust limiting
    systems such as catalytic converters, etc.) to reduce such pollution.
     THe major problem with tobacco pollution is that it is released in more or
    less confined spaces, such as homes, restaurants and etc. The results of
    that pollution are much easier to detect, since the poisons emitted by the
    smoker can be more easily detected in the systems of the people affected.
     As it has been mentioned, if everyone used hydrogen or other based fuels,
    that systemic pollution could be greatly reduced, or even eliminated, and I
    have no problem with steps taken in that direction. In fact, I applaud them.
    What I fail to understand is why you addicts, with all the FACTS before you,
    insist that you do no harm to others, and insist on your alleged "rights" to
    pollute the air that others are then forced to inhale.

    Message: 1821
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Shut Up Already!
    Subject: Carter
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 07:00:58

    In answering some of your statements from you nice post ...

    Hey! I loved my Uncle Alva just as much as Cliff loved his precious Uncle
    Bob. I hated to see him die and it was a pretty horriable death (is there
    any other kind?) to and it WASN'T smoking related.

    Re: your ...."Someone who wholeheartedly approves of the slaughter of
    un-born babies ...." How typical of you to say something like that. You are
    absolutely the biggest fanatic on that subject or any subject I've ever met
    or heard about. You are so fanatical I think your sick at times.

    You have the gaul to talk about MY self righteousness? As stiff neck and
    rock hard of a person that you are shouldn't be calling other people names
    like that. You speak of Cliff loving his uncle and I don't know how you can
    use the word love in your vocabulary at all - I'll bet there isn't one drop
    of it in you! I'd be afraid of you if you were my neighbor. With your turn
    of the century missionary' views, vile, nasty temper, self righteourness and
    your stance on guns, I'd move quick.

    My advice to you is -- go have a cigarette. You need it! Also a good shot of
    booze. A double.

    Message: 1822
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Shut Up Already!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 07:14:04

    Also in answer to your sweet post ...
    How can you sit there and tell me you didn't say to me (us) at least 3 -4
    times that you can be in your house with the window opened and smell the guy
    next door smoking in his living room (family room?)??? Not only have you
    posted that here, you told me that in my own home and in your own home!

    You pick up cigarette butts in your yard EVERYDAY? Isn't that a tad
    exaggeration? I cannot believe THAT many people and THAT many smokers walk
    by your house everyday and toss butts in your yard.

    Your getting annoyed at my arrogance over your Uncle Bob? Ok then, you stop
    being arrogant and then I will! If you don't want "Another, slanderous,
    hateful lie" about him, then don't bring him up!

    Speaking of 'ANOTHER slanderous, hateful lie' .... what is slanderous about
    anything I've said and what do you mean about ANOTHER one??? You feel I go
    around slandering you all the time? I tell hateful lies about you? What are
    YOU SMOKING?

    Message: 1823
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann, Zone time! READ
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 08:31:38

            I never said I could smell my neighbors smoking when he is in his
    living room.  That is a lie on your part.  I said I could smell him from his
    patio... and if the wind came in my direction.  And he tosses the butts into
    my yard.  And I do find butts in my yard every day.  How dare you tell me
    what I do or don't find in my yard.  You are really pissing me off
    exagerating my dislike of cigarettes.

            You are the one hooked on the stupid drugs...  you are the fanatic.
    You are the one who once said that cigarettes really don't bother anyone.
    My posts were to prove to you that they really do.  You just don't hear it.
    When I am out to ENJOY myself, I go around smokers with a wide berth if I
    can.  If I can't, I just think nasty thoughts about their dirty little habit
    and their rudness for smoking in the presence of others who may not smoke.
    I never use to say anything to anyone till I found out there are so many
    others who hate cigs with a passion as well, or get sick from them like I
    do.

            You either find that post where I said I could smell cigs though
    walls...or you APOLLO-gize and withdraw that remark. Or you have a week in
    the ZONE.  A few months ago I even posted I did not care what people did in
    their own homes and would never support any law to stop them from smoking in
    their home.  You called me a lier on that too...   Little do you know.
    Stop hating me because I don't condone smoking.  I even wish you were my
    neighbor....  sigh... get your facts straight!

    Message: 1824
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Livingroom
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 10:20:20

            It dawned on me where you heard me mention livingroom..  I said I
    could smell their smoke while sitting in MY LIVINGROOM.  Where in my own
    house I am not even safe from the smoking crap when they are outside smoking
    and the wind (breeze) is in my direction and my windows are OPEN for fresh
    air.  I wish they would smoke in their house... it does not bother me one
    bit when they do.  However, I have noticed since the old man died a while
    back, they seem to be cutting down a whole bunch from what they did.  The
    old man was a chain smoker...

            A little bit ago, someone was walking their dog.  They stopped at my
    corner and the dog did its thing and the man took his last puff, and tossed
    his cig into my side yard.   SIGH!

            No, I did not say a thing..it does no good.  I have found smokers to
    be so rude, they would only do it more.

            I still want that APOLLO-gee or it's the ZONE for you.  Yes, I am
    down on cigarettes, but not so that I would not expect them to smoke in
    their home.  You falsely accuse me, and I don't like it.

    Message: 1825
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: company
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 10:29:52

            I still have an ash tray outside for company... If I were a fanatic
    like Ann claims, I would not provide this service.  I would not let a smoker
    set foot on my property.  However, I do grin and except it.  Even Ann knows
    this to be true, yet she is telling you otherwise.

            She is also making me afraid to visit her anylonger at her home.
    Sniff... I do so love Ann's cooking...  sniff....  Yes, there are times I
    would have gone over with Sandy to vist, but Ann's exagerated comments have
    kept me away.  (not her smoking)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 1826
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Deep Doo Doo!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 11:18:35

    You're right.  Dog owners can be very inconsiderate of people who don't have
    dogs and don't like to find dog excrement in their yards or dogs running
    around off their leashes in public places.

    (A week in the Zone for Ann over this misunderstanding seems a little harsh,
     don't you think?)

    Message: 1827
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 12:40:27

            Harsh... yes, I would probably only do it for one day in reality as
    one day in the ZONE for Ann sends her into a tither.  I just don't like
    being mis-quoted as I do know people who smoke and other then to BBS people,
    I hardly ever mention my dislike for it.  The idea for a BBS is to speak
    ones mind and get out the frustration.  My neighbor probably does not even
    know I dislike smoking.  I never told him....  I doubt he has even noticed
    we close the windows when he has a smoking party in his back yard.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 1828
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: SMOKING
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 01:56:58

         All this bickering has got me all nerved up.

         Anyone have a light?

    Message: 1829
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: errant smoke
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 06:12:14

     Cliff, I used to have a similiar problem at the home I sold last year. The
    neighbor behind me (across the alley), smoked those crummy cigars (I think
    he used the ones made from floor sweepings. UGH!). His wife wouldn't allow
    him to smoke them in the house, so he would sit in his back yard and light
    up. The air flow wold then carry the stench from those things across the
    ally into my yard, and, if I had my back door open for air, into my house.
     Sort of made me feel like a prisoner in my own house, since I had to close
    the door and windows while he was out there polluting the air. Damn things
    ought to be outlawed EVERYWHERE!

    Message: 1830
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/neighbor
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 06:15:48

     Seems to me that you have every right to tell your neighbor that, even
    though you find smoking offensive, you have no right to tell him he can't
    smoke in his own yard, but that you do find picking up his butts in your
    yard objectionable. After all, why should your yard double as his ash tray?

    Message: 1831
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: A Light
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 07:49:20

    Lessee. My flashlight is under the bed, I think.

    Message: 1832
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Piss on it!
    Subject: Cliff on apology
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 09:20:37

    How can I appologize for that when I know you said it and not only that,
    many times??? Find the post? How the hell can I do that?
    BTW - how come any apology with threat of the Zone is necessary in this sig?
    You'll have to put Mike and yourself in there with me because you are being
    just as nasty as I am!! Free speech is getting to be a premium on Apollo it
    seems - even in this sig. I guess censureship of the Cos is next er?

    Have you ever once stopped to think that you offend me just as much as I do
    you? No! I didn't think so. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1833
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 09:36:31

    I have never said you wouldn't let smokers on you property. If you recall, I
    praised you for being so considerate even though I knew smoke bothered you.

    I swear to you Cliff I have heard you make that statement many times and you
    did NOT say the people were outside, but in their homes! In fact, one time I
    sarcastically questioned you on that particular thing - being able to smell
    it from inside their houses and you swore up and down you could. Why do you
    refuese to remember that?

    Why on earth would you refrain from coming over with Sandy? You say they are
    my exagerated comments? Then you believe that a lot of my comments are
    exagerated? After all, this particular instance is fairly new - a couple
    days ago I made that statement - so how come last time she was here and the
    time before and the time before that - months back you didn't come over???
    Was it something I exagerated on then? You just flat quit coming over and I
    thought it was because - #1 we smoked and - #2 we have so many animals!

    I want you to realize one thing - I had backed off this cigarette subject
    because it had started to get nasty a few weeks back  - but you and Pauley
    brought it right back up. So if you are getting flack, it's your own fault!
    If you continue to spout off about what you think of smokers, then the
    smokers will spout off about what they think of militant non-smokers! This
    is realty Cliffy! Facts! *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1834
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Zone
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 09:45:39

    Aw, come on! I don't have to revise my 'Zone Groveling Speech' do I? How
    come you are always threatening me with this when others are just as
    outspoken as I am? Or does the only reason one gets thrown in the Zone is
    because they go against the Mighty Sysop? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Hey - lets get some facts straight about this sig. anyway while we're at it.
    Is it or is it NOT a free speech sig with NO intervention from the sysop NO
    matter what is said - like the Cos sig????? OR - are we living under the
    illusion that it is simply because of the name of this sig. and the
    catagories we can choose from like "Piss on it!" - "Shit Chat" etc. etc.
    I really wish you would clear this up so that other members won't make the
    mistake of saying forbidden things and ending up punished for it!

    Message: 1835
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann, Sigh!
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 12:32:40

            I never never said I could smell smoke though walls.    I would
    remember that.  The comment that has stopped me from comming over was the
    stupid one you made about me wanting and supporting laws that would ban
    smoking everywhere, including in the smokers home.   I told you that was not
    true and you called me a fanatic and stood your ground.   At that time I
    quit trying to reason with you and decided I would avoid you.

            Now, you have me smelling smoke though walls of a neighbors house...

            You are free to say what you want on this SIG.  However, lies are
    not included in this.  That is slander, not free speech.

            I don't blow smoke into your face... I don't even go over your house
    anymore, so how do I offend you?      I assume it's telling you the truth..
    smoking 'STINKS'!

            Maybe it's because I let Sandy go there and you are offended by
    that.  Well, I will try and fix that too.

    Message: 1836
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 23:07:52

    RE: "--wholesale murder of unborn babies--"

    Are you then reversing your stance on Abortion and joining the
    pro-life side?

    RE: "--militant non-smokers--"

    You would be quite militant also if I repeatedly bombed your house
    with stink gas, making the air unbreatheable to you.
    Smoking a cigarette in an enclosed space has the same effects.
    The only difference is, your skull is too thick to understand that.

    Message: 1837
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike dear
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 13:26:21

    When, pray tell, did I EVER "repeatedly bomb your house with stink gas???"

    Why is it all the time you smoked, you did not feel you were 'stink gassing'
    your own home and that the air was unbreathable?? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1838
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 13:32:46

    Re: "Maybe it's because I let SAndy go there (to my house) and you are
    offended by that. Well, I will try and fix that too."

    Let's clarify that above statement with some questions and I am going to
    save this post to make sure nothing you say is forgotten by you at a later
    date..... What would I be offended by when Sandy comes over? We have a great
    time. I have NO idea what you mean by that.

    Re: "I will try and fix that too." Does that mean you don't want her coming
    over anymore? Will she stop because you don't want her to - like on Monday?

    Do you usually tell Sandy where she can go and not go? I wasn't aware you
    LET her come over here. Please clarify this. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1839
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 18:12:31

            I always told Sandy to have a good time over at your place.  I never
    tried to stop her if that is what you are thinking. I have even enjoyed
    visiting you and Whitey at your place, but your exagerations make it sound
    otherwise.

            For the last time.. When My neighbors smoke OUTSIDE in their Patio
    and I have my back windows open, I can smell their smoke in MY livingroom.

            Now, when are you and Whitey going to visit us.. a few drinks, a few
    laughs and we can sniff the neighbors next door.

            As for the 'Is Sandy offending you'...  Well, I figured since I was
    not going over there, it could not be my farts that were offending you
    unless you wish to claim you could smell them that far away.  If so I do
    Apollo-gize!  Since Sandy is in a way, my better half, I thought that was
    what you ment.  Is she burping again?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 1840
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Annie/1837
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 05:22:33

     You asked Mike "Why is it all the time you smoked, you did not feel you
    were 'stink gassing' your own home and that the air was unbreathable?"
     It has well been said that a skunk never smells his own hole. Mike, and I
    as well, was once in your position, and can understand both sides of that
    line, a position you cannot understand. An addicted smoker NEVER notices the
    obnoxious smell he or she creates every time a cigarette is lit, nor can
    they smell the lasting effect their addiction has on their clothing, their
    hair, and everything else they come in contact with.
     These long lasting and offensive smells can only be realized by one who is
    not addicted to the poison. The addict's sense of smell, at least toward the
    odor(s) he/she lives with constantly, is deadened.
     Of course, this, too, is a medically and scientifically proven and
    demonstrable fact, so I suppose that you will reject it, just as you have
    all the other facts that have been presented here against your own
    addiction. To do otherwise would be totally out of character for you.

    Message: 1841
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 09:51:25

    My, arent we defensive these days?

    My analogy of stink-bombing *your* house was written *NOT* on actual
    events, but to illustrate my point which you again failed to grasp.
    You seem to have a mental block or extreeme difficulty being able to
    pick out analogies, illustrations and differing viewpoints in discussions.
    I think this contributes towards verification of your attitudes on topics
    which you have no way of refuting, your response is to switch off what
    linear logic you have and completely go ballistic, off into orbits around
    your imaginary worlds.

    Read Paul's message a couple times. Read Cliff's message a couple times.
    Perhaps you will, one day, stop misquoting and playing around with your
    deadly habit.

    Message: 1842
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff on SAndy
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 10:02:07

    No, she doesn't burp - she farts also! No offence though. We all do that!

    It's now all straight about your neighbor's cigarette smoke .... on every
    other Wednesday at 6:30 PM when your neighbor is in his downstairs bathroom
    with the door shut and he is smoking - you can smell it when you are in your
    shop! Right? :)

    You are welcome at my house at anytime - that has never been an issue - but
    remember, we still have 4 dogs, 11 birds and Whitey Still smokes! My
    Shalimar perfume can be overwhelming too, so beware!  *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1843
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Pauley on Mike
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 10:03:35

    I think you deserve a few days in the Zone for calling Mike a Skunk!
    What do you think Bill? :)  *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1844
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/last
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 10:04:31

    Yawn!

    Message: 1845
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 16:41:54

    I think that Ann, if she didn't smoke before all the abuse she has taken
    in the Sig would have taken up smoking because of it. Let's give Ann a
    break and lighten up a little.

    Message: 1846
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/last
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 06:10:36

    Thank you Roger. Would you pass me the lighter please? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 1847
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/smoking
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 08:08:30

    Certainly my dear. Are you about to light the coals. Speaking of coals, it
    is now getting hot enough for us outdoor cooks to cook directly on the cool
    decking. (Why is it called cool deck when it is so hot ?)

    Message: 1848
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: Neighbor
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 01:54:50

    I can smell it when my neighbor smokes.  She is often out of town, but I can
    tell when she is home.  Not in my bedroom, but certainly in the kitchen and
    hall.

    Message: 1849
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 05:46:37

     You don't think for a minute that anybody's going to pay attention to
    Roger, do you Annie?
     Picking on you is the lifeline of this BBS!
     Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette!
     Puff, puff, puff and when you smoke yourself to death,
     Tell St. Peter at the golden gate,
     you just hate to make him wait,
     but you've just got to have another cigarette!

    Message: 1850
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: James's neighbor
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 07:44:54

    What is your neighbor doing in your kitchen and hall ? Does she cook for you
    ?

    Message: 1851
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Pauley on song
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 09:09:29

    Well??? Finish the song. I bet you don't know the rest of the words do ya?
    I do! *>>> ANN O. (cough!) <<<*

    Message: 1852
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Responsibility
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 12:42:55

    Cliff, which specific person or persons do you hold responsible for the
    death of your Uncle Bob?

    Just curious.

    Message: 1853
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last/Gordon
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 13:40:16

            It was Uncle Bob's choice to smoke.  However when he lost a lung to
    smoking, he was pretty upset that he had not listened to the warnings over
    the last few years and did not recall ANY warning when he took up the habit
    as a young man in the army.

            I hold no one person or persons responsible except for Bob Simpson
    him self!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 1854
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 16:57:21

    Any relation to Homer?

    Message: 1855
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last 50
    Date: 06/19/91  Time: 02:07:13

    Shit, what a soap opera sig I'm on.  This should be made into a play.

    BTW, working at a  location when oxygen is greatly diminished for three
    to four minute periods can cause some weird brain patterns to develop.  Be
    sure to take in large amounts of oxygen when smoking anything so this
    doesn't happen.  But if you're on an aircraft carrier where hot exhaust is
    burning the oxygen and keeping the breathable stuff at a minimun then the
    only cure for it is deep breathing in a location that teems with fresh,
    plant made oxygen molecules.

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 75696
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Last/Rod
    Date: 06/12/91  Time: 23:52:50

            You have convinced me Rod..  There for a while I saw merit in
    letting drugs, (such as pot) get legalized.  Now I am against it.  It makes
    people crazy.  I have been reading Sandy's medical books and you are all so
    ignorant Mr Williams.  You only pick up on what you want to hear.

            Who said debates on here don't change minds.  Rod has changed my
    mind totaly against recreation drugs.  I think there should be a death
    penalty for such dealers of illegal mind altering drugs.  I would volenteer
    to pull the lever at the gas chamber that drops the pellets.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- drugs are for wimps

    Message: 75697
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: pot
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 03:56:47

    I have never seen anyone become agressive while using marijuana.  Alcohol
    causes agression in people.  Marijuana makes people more agreeable, but
    dumber.

    Message: 75698
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill B.
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 05:54:22

     You seem to have a pretty good insight into the Phoenix P.D. Are you by any
    chance connected with them? I agree, by the way, with your thought on the
    next mayoral race. Two flip-flops in as many days are just too much to
    swallow, unless there is a very strong underlying reason, and you put your
    finger on as good a reason as any. Mayor Ortega sounds as good as the
    adolescent that now occupies that chair, don't ya think?

    Message: 75699
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 05:58:45

     I hope that, since the vehicles were occupied, that one of those criminal
    charges are attempted murder. "Kids" like that don't belong in nice
    residential neighborhoods.

    Message: 75700
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul/Ortega Mayor.
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 07:41:41

    nonononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononono.

    Message: 75701
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 08:33:56

            Well, I become a 'pussy cat' when on alcohol... Real friendly in
    fact.  Ask Ann....  (if she ain't in the Zone for a week...see FIN SIG)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75702
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 08:49:53

            They were just shooting at the cars...  They only wanted to scare
    people and not murder them.  Attempted murder is not charged against them
    (as far as I know)  A few weeks ago one of them asked Travis if he liked to
    do 'bad' things.  He told Travis he did....   Travis has nothing to do with
    these jerks.   Sandy showed two of these boys who were involved some very
    nast weapon wound pictures... (8 X 10 color) and they sorta stood back when
    she showed them an exit wound.  Kids get the wrong idea of weapons from TV
    shows.  The disrespect for such tools may be Hollywoods fault in part.

            You know had they hit the glass and Sandy knew she was being shot
    at, I can't help wonder if we would have a dead kid...as Sandy may have
    fired back in self defence.  They hit only sheet metal and Sandy thought
    someone had tossed a firecracker at her as it only sounded like a loud
    'BAM'.  If you did not know, Sandy would have hit the person easily from
    that distance, and she was armed.  Kids can be so stupid... makes me mad!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- still shaking

    Message: 75703
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: Friends
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 08:55:22

            Mizz Dee made mention that a friend of hers was using Apollo.  I
    like this notice and try to make the system as friendly to these people as I
    can.  If I see a non-member logging in and I know who it is, I sometimes
    lower the ((SHIELD)) level real fast so they can do what they want.  If you
    invite a friend to Apollo... tell me the name and I will do my best to see
    they are treated well by the system.

            Thank you Mizz Dee!

    Note that this post can only be read by $tatus Members....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75704
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff-Shots Fired
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 09:05:38

    > My Wife was in the truck with the younger boy Tyler.

    Holy Cripes, Cliff!  Glad to hear everyone's okay.

    Why would this incident make you change you mind on drug legalization, but
    not on gun control?

    Message: 75705
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul-Mayor Ugh!tega
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 09:06:14

    > You seem to have a pretty good insight into the Phoenix P.D.
    > Are you by any chance connected with them?
            Not any longer.  I was Supervisor of Video Services at the Training
    Academy a few years back.  In the process of developing videotapes on
    various subjects I got the chance to work directly with some of the
    Department's top management.  Having spent 12 years total in law
    enforcement, while maintaining a strong interest in civil rights and other
    legal issues, I try to keep up.

    > Mayor Ortega sounds as good as the adolescent that now occupies
    > that chair, don't ya think?
            Absolutely NOT!  Ortega is very much a "me-against-the-world" kind
    of guy.  Anyone that doesn't vow undying allegiance is suspect.  He'd be
    very ineffective at building the alliances necessary to guiding a
    representative body such as the City Council.
            Johnson, OTOH, is very much a consensus-builder.  But, unlike Terry
    Goddard and so many other politicians, approaches consensus-building with a
    problem-solving attitude; with common sense, unencumbered by political
    ambition.  I believe Johnson has quite a future in public life, but that his
    political successes will come to him for the same reasons they came to Jimmy
    Stewart's Mr. Smith -- because he's "good folks," makes sense, and does
    well.

    Message: 75706
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 10:02:27

            This incident has nothing to do with my changing my mind on drugs.
    Rod's posts alone have shown me what drugs do to the mind.  Screws it up!

            Gun control...  how about kid control?  If Gun control would really
    work, it would have to ban guns from everyone including government.  And
    this would have to include knives and ban anyone from becoming strong enough
    to press 150 pounds.  Ban tire irons and rocks and all blunt instruments.

            Not very practical...  I know how EASY it would be for me to make a
    gun type weapon.  But, I would not need too, there just are too many
    available.  I had hand guns in New York for crying out loud...as a little
    kid.  They are all over the place when you know where to look.  Only the LAW
    abiding citizen is un-armed and easy to mug.  My Uncle Bob worked in New
    York city at one of them big banks and was mugged several times.  It was not
    a knife or a gun that got him however, it was a cigarette!

            Sandy as weapons instructor and advisor on weapons gets a book from
    the government every year on statistics.  And in New York and other places
    where these gun control laws are the strictest, is WHERE crime is on its
    biggest growth.  Heck, if the bad guys know you are unarmed, they boldly
    walk in an rob, mug, rape you as they know they are not going to get hurt by
    you the civilian.  It's against the law to defend yourself you might say.
    As for the bad guys, the law did not stop them from getting guns, heck, they
    are criminals already.

    Message: 75707
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/"Weed"
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 17:41:34

      Let's straighten this up.
      Someone back there claims that marijuana doesn't make people aggressive,
    just stupid.  Okay, go with that.
      The kids that shot at the vehicles were *not* being aggressive.  They were
    just having some fun under the influence of cannibis.  But being under that
    particular influence, as you can see, casused them to be stupid enought that
    they gave *no* thought to how dangerous their fun could be to others.
      I have always been, and will continue to be, against the legalization of
    marijuana and of any other "recreational" mind-altering drug.

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 75708
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 18:07:47

      Andrew Carnegie was a telegraph clerk at seventeen, then
    secretary to the head of the Pennsylvania Railroad, then
    broker in Wall Street selling ralroad bonds for huge
    commissions, and was soon a millionaire.  He went to London
    in 1872, saw the new Bessemer method of producing steel, and
    returned to the United States to build a million-dollar
    steel plant.  Foreign competition was kept out by a high
    tariff conveniently set by Congress, and by 1880 Carnegie
    was producing 10,000 tons of steel a month, making $1-1/2
    million a year in profit.  By 1990 he was making $40 million
    a year, and that year, at a dinner party, he agreed to sell
    his steel company to J. P. Morgan.  He scribbled the price
    on a note: $492,000,000.
      Morgan then formed the U.S. Steel Corporation, combining
    Carnegie's corporation with others.  He sold stocks and
    bonds for $1,300,000,000 (about 400 million more than the
    combined worth of the companies) and took a fee of 150
    million for arranging the consolidation.  How could
    dividends be paid to all those stockholders and bondholders?
    By making sure Congress passed tariffs keeping out foreign
    steel; by closing off competition and maintaining the price
    at $28 a ton; and by working 200,000 men twelve hours a day
    for wages that barely kept their families alive.
      And so it went, in industry after industry -- shrewd,
    efficient businessmen building empires, choking out
    competition, maintaining high prices, keeping wages low,
    using government subsidies.  These industries were the first
    beneficiaries of the "welfare state."  By the turn of the
    century, American Telephone and Telegraph had a monopoly of
    the nation's telephone system, International Harvester made
    85 percent of all farm machinery, and in every other
    industry resources became concentrated, controlled.  The
    banks had interests in so many of these monopolies as to
    create an interlocking network of powerful corporation
    directors, each of whom sat on the boards of many other
    corporations.  According to a Senate report of the early
    twentieth century, Morgan at his peak sat on the board of
    forty-eight corporations; Rockefeller, thirty-seven
    corporations.

    Message: 75710
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Shooting
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 18:19:50

    I'm not even going to try to address this until
    everyone's had a chance to calm down.  I'm just happy that
    no one was seriously hurt.  You're taking this well, Cliff.
    Please keep us posted on the case.
                                  Apro Poet

    Message: 75711
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Steve on Weed
    Date: 06/13/91  Time: 23:52:45

            Yes, they were stupid, that's for sure.  We are going to press
    criminal charges as of this posting.  I however have a seminar to attend
    next week where I am going have my rights explained to me in full.  The
    parent of one of the shooters is trying to bully me into lowering the price
    in damage to my truck and refuses to see why I need a rental for the 3 days
    my vehicle will be laid up.  Does not seem worried at all about their son's
    pending criminal charges. Just seems worried about 'what it's going to cost
    them'.   They even boasted that they have kept their son ignorant of guns
    and pretend they don't exist.  They can't seem to see the fact that because
    of this, their son's curiosity was peaked, and having no training in safety
    he had no idea as to what he was doing.  The statistics that the government
    sends Sandy seems to bare this out.  People who have had no training seem to
    be the ones most likely to shoot other people.

            I swear, they are looking for a K-Mart Blue Light Special on bullet
    hole repair for my truck.... Up their's!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- fit to be tied.....

    Message: 75712
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Question?
    Subject: CLIFF
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 01:58:41

    RE:  "The potheads that shot at her..."

         Do you have concrete evidence that these people do in fact smoke
    marijuana?

    Message: 75713
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: CLIFF ON DRUGS
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 02:01:27

    RE: "I think there should be a death penalty for such dealers of mind
    altering drugs."

    DEATH TO PETER COORS!  DEATH TO THE GALLOS BROTHERS!  DEATH TO MR. BARTLES
    AND MR. JAMES!

    Message: 75714
    Author: $ Don Hicks
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: anything&everything
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 03:53:33

    "Kid control"...What a novel concept.

    Message: 75715
    Author: $ Don Hicks
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: science
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 03:55:12

    Does anyone know what a _Photon Backscatter_ is?

    -Don

    Message: 75716
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/crimes
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 05:47:55

     I'm not so sure that the kids' intent in shooting at the vehicle would be
    all that important. If the vehicle was occupied when it was shot at, the
    occupants could conceivably have been killed. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to
    me that such an act could be interpreted as attempted homicide.

    Message: 75717
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 05:51:59

     Thanks for the insight into Ortega. THere's a lot the public never gets to
    see.
     As for Paul Johnson, his PR rating went up several degrees in my book with
    his announcement yesterday that police business would be politically
    influenced "over my dead body". Admittedly , for one so young, he does show
    a lot of common sense, as well as political savvy, a combination sadly
    lacking in most politicians.

    Message: 75718
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Don Hicks
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 05:57:28

    Kid control a "novel" concept? Oh, not too novel. It's been around for at
    least a few years. Ever hear of "Train up a child in the wa he should go,
    and when he is old he will not depart from it."?
     The problem is that we just don't have enough believers any more. Something
    about discipline spoiling the little dears' psyche, or some such silly
    thing.

    Message: 75719
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 07:37:14

    > This incident has nothing to do with my changing my mind on
    > drugs.

    OK.  Thought you'd said or implied that the shooting changed your mind.  I'm
    still glad everyone's okay.  Hope the court strings 'em up.

    Message: 75720
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/"weed"
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 07:44:44

    This recent fashion of blaming behavior on drugs has its historical basis
    from my generation when we were told that if we were caught doing something
    criminal to claim that we were drunk at the time. That way, the charges that
    would be brought against us would not be so severe. I suspect that these
    kids, who knew perfectly well what they were doing, used "drug use" as an
    excuse for their criminal behavior.

    Message: 75721
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on booze
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 09:12:03

    I will have to attest to the fact that Cliffy is indeed a 'pussy cat' while
    under the influence. So mellowed out he even let the dogs get on him and
    he's allergic! And, it doesn't take very much to get him 'under' either.
                           *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75722
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 10:56:29

    Under where?

    Message: 75723
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/Drug-Excuse
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 15:26:52

      I don't think that being under the influence of anything voluntary should
    be any part of an excuse for illegal behavior.
      If the culprits in the Winters shooting were *not* under the influence of
    pot or anything else, then they'd be fully responsible.  If they *were*
    under the influence, then they got that way voluntarily, and are *still*
    fully responsible.
      A few public hangings may well be in order here.

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 75724
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/excuse
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 16:04:13

    I wasn't trying to make an excuse for their behavior, but rather cast doubt
    on the statement that they were "potheads" and that somehow taking pot
    contributed to their alleged commission of this crime.

    I totally agree with you that they are fully responsible, no matter what the
    circumstances are. I hope they throw the book at 'em, because we, as a
    society, cannot tolerate this kind of behavior.

    Message: 75725
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 18:38:46

    Kid control.  Not only a great idea, but why not one that should be
    inforced?  Don't these parents see that Lazziefaire attitudes in parenting
    don't work?  I think people should have to be licenced to be able to have
    children.  Being responsible financially, physically, and emotionally for
    another human's well being is the most awesome responsibility I can think of
    and yet "they'll let any *$%&@" be a parent (quote taken from _Parenthood_).
    I strongly believe in the freedoms of the individual but there must be some
    way to check on the responsibility of the individual.  Teenagers, for the
    most part, are not ready or willing to take on parental responsiblities.
    Many older married couples have children without realizing how much
    "trouble" it is or feel, from societal peer pressure, that they should have
    kids.  There are too many abused kids out there.  Too many abused people
    having kids.  Too many people not being responsible.  Sometimes I just want
    to yell at them to "STOP IT ALREADY" but that hasn't worked so far.
    Education?  Only if the recepient is willing to learn.  Pressure/punishment?
    Just look at our overflowing prisons!
    Man, I'm starting to get really frustrated...where was I going with this...
    Oh, Cliff:  I hope that you can go to trial and try to teach this young boys
    that what they did is not acceptable and they won't get away with it.  If
    there's anything I can do (character witness?  Cookies for the judge?  I
    don't know) let me know.  This does not change my views on marajuana.  I've
    done it and handled it responsibly, as a teenager even.  This does not
    change my views on gun control.  The control missing in this situation was
    that of the parents to teach their children about the guns in their own home

    Message: 75726
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 19:44:43

      Meanwhile, the government of the United States was
    behaving almost exactly as Karl Mrax described a capitalist
    state: pretending neutrality to maintain order, but serving
    the interests of the rich.  Not that the rich agreed among
    themselves; they had disputes over policies.  But the
    purpose of the state was to settle upper-class disputes
    peacefully, control lower-class rebellion, and adopt
    policies that would further the long-range stability of the
    system.  The arrangement between Democrats and Republicans
    to elect Rutherford Hayes in 1877 set the tone.  Whether
    Democrats or Republicans won, national policy would not
    change in any important way.
      When Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, ran for President in
    1884, the general impression in the country was that he
    opposed the power of monopolies and corporations, and that
    the Republican party, whose candidate was James Blaine,
    stood for the wealthy.  But when Cleveland defeated Blaine,
    Jay Gould wired him: "I feel ... that the vast business
    interests of the country will be entirely safe in your
    hands."  And he was right.
      One of Cleveland's chief advisors was William Whitney, a
    millionaire and corporation lawyer, who married into the
    Standard Oil fortune and was appointed Secretary of the
    Navy by Cleveland.  He immediately set about to create a
    "steel navy," buying the steel at artificially high prices
    from Carnegie's plants.  Cleveland himself assured
    industrialists that his election should not frighten them:
    "No harm shall come to any business interest as a result of
    administrative policy so long as I am President ... a
    transfer of executive control from one party to another does
    not mean any serious disturbance of existing conditions."
      The presidential election itself had avoided real issues;
    there was no clear understanding of which interests would
    gain and which would lose if certain policies were adopted.
    It took the usual form of election campaigns, concealing the
    basic similarity of the parties by dwelling on personalities,
    gossip, trivialities.  Henry Adams, an astute literary
    commentator on that era, wrote to a friend about the
    election:
           We are here plunged in politics funnier than words
         can express.  Very great issues are involved....  But
         the amusing thing is that no one talks about real
         interests.  By common consent they agree to let these
         alone.  We are afraid to discuss them.  Instead of this
         the press is engaged in a most amusing dispute whether
         Mr. Cleveland had an illegitimate child and did or did
         not live with more than one mistress.
      In 1887, with a huge surplus in the treasury, Cleveland
    vetoed a bill appropriating $100,000 to give relief to
    Texas farmers to help them buy seed grain during a drought.
    He said: "Federal aid in such cases ... encourages an
    expectation of paternal care on the part of the government
    and weakens the sturdiness of our national character."  But
    that same year, Cleveland used his gold surplus to pay off
    wealthy bondholders at $28 above the $100 value of each
    bond -- a gift of $45 million.
      The chief reform of the Cleveland administration gives
    away the secret of reform legislation in America.  The
    Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 was supposed to regulate the
    railroads on behalf of the consumers.  But Richard Olney, a
    lawyer for the Boston & Maine and other railroads, and soon
    to be Cleveland's Attorney General, told railroad officials
    who complained about the Interstate Commerce Commission that
    it would not be wise to abolish the Commission "from a
    railroad point of view."  He explained:
           The Commission ... is or can be made, of great use to
         the railroads.  It satisfies the popular clamor for a
         government supervision of railroads, at the same time
         that that supervision is almost entirely nominal....
         The part of wisdom is not to destroy the Commission,
         but to utilize it.
    Cleveland himself, in his 1887 State of the Union message,
    had made a similar point, adding a warning: "Opportunity for
    safe, careful, and deliberate reform is now offered; and
    none of us should be unmindful of a time when an abused and
    irritated people ... may insist upon a radical and sweeping
    rectification of their wrongs."

    Message: 75730
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 22:05:53

    Re:  however we are not dropping criminal charges...  and neither is the
    other guy

    You're doing the right thing Cliff.  Dropping charges would be a big
    mistake.  If the kids are under 18, they will just be turned loose.  It's a
    strange world we live in.

    Message: 75731
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 22:12:35

    Re:  They even boasted that they have kept their son ignorant of guns and
    pretend they don't exist.

    How can one argue with a mentality like that??

    Message: 75732
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Don
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 22:13:57

    Re:  Does anyone know what a _Photon Backscatter_ is?

    An electronic back scratcher??

    Message: 75733
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rog
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 22:18:02

    Re:  I hope they throw the book at 'em, because we, as a society, cannot
    tolerate this kind of behavior.

    Hooray! Roger!  We finally agree on something.  There's hope for you yet.

    Message: 75734
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Mz. Dee
    Date: 06/14/91  Time: 22:19:30

    Re:  I think people should have to be licenced to be able to have
    children.

    They do that in Red China don't they?

    Message: 75735
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 02:33:39

     RM> This recent fashion of blaming behavior on drugs has its historical
     RM> basis from my generation when we were told that if we were caught doing
     RM> something criminal to claim that we were drunk at the time. That way,
     RM> the charges that would be brought against us would not be so severe.

    There are instances in law (possibly British law) where "being drunk" is a
    legally acceptable mitigation of otherwise unacceptable behavior.  Trouble
    is, we can't have it both ways.  We all have an interest in eliminating
    dangerous behavior.

    There are two schools of thought about this.  One says that self-control is
    "obviously" reduced by alcohol, drugs and so forth; therefore we ought to
    control all of these substances and punish people for using them, so as to
    control such irresponsible behavior indirectly.  Another school of thought
    asks what right we have to control what other people do with their own
    bodies.

    I incline strongly to the latter view.  It's not only less restrictive, but
    it gets directly to the point of society's interest in regulating people's
    behavior.  Drink what you like, smoke what you like, shoot up what you like
    (into your veins that is, not other people's trucks).  It's your funeral.
    But it had better not be anyone else's.  Whatever you do -- whether you're
    "under the influence" or otherwise -- you're still responsible for it.

    Message: 75736
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 02:34:34

      >> One of the parents of two of the people involved have already stopped
      >> over to talk to us and apologize...

      >> The parent of one of the shooters is trying to bully me...

    Quite a mixture of attitudes there.  With that second attitude, it's hardly
    surprising that the kid has no sense of responsibility.  I'd be interested
    to hear if it was Dad or Mom who thought they could get away with bullying
    the opponent.  But whichever it was, it's quite clear that the family
    culture being passed on to the kid is "do whatever you can get away with,
    and if anyone complains, just step on them; they're insignificant."  You
    can't unteach this attitude in five minutes.  The kid is going to run into a
    brick wall of disapproval sooner or later.  Better sooner than later.

    I don't believe for one minute that any kid with an IQ greater than about 70
    doesn't realize that guns can kill people.  These people are not only a
    menace to life (which is the main point), but they're also a menace to the
    rest of us who own guns.  Or cars.  Or voting privileges.  Or anything else
    potentially dangerous.  Because if enough human being prove that they can't
    be trusted with something, they give ammunition to those who claim that "the
    ordinary mortal can't be trusted with such-and-such a right and it ought to
    be taken away."  Better to take these *people* away and lock them behind a
    high fence where they can't do any damage, and leave the rest of the world
    to people who can behave in a responsible manner.

    Message: 75737
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 05:20:23

     Aside from your views on marijuana use, with which I disagree, that was one
    of the finest things you have ever posted on Apollo. Congratulations on a
    very mature viewpoint on individual responsibility! I couldn't agree more.

    Message: 75738
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix' praise
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 08:23:13

    And I'm worried.

    Message: 75739
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ortega and Politics
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 09:03:53

    Sure the politicians don't want another Azscam.  Wouldn't you like to be
    notified of any type of investigation being done on your buddies?  And
    wouldn't it be nice if you could kill that investigation or tip off your
    buddies????  Hmmmm.....I sure would!!!!!  I think Ortega has a valid reason
    for quitting.  Then again, maybe he should consintrate on harrassing us poor
    civillians?  Aren't politicians (at least in their own minds) a step below
    God?  I say lets get the ropes out and REALLy find out...Hang em
    all....The're all criminals anyway....

    Message: 75740
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apro's postings
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 11:56:56

    Well, the ICC wasn't the last "front" of the government.  The airlines use
    the CAB and others to regulate baggage handling, smoking provisions, and
    other things which no individual airline wants to be first to do.  "Sorry,
    Federal regulations permit no more than one carry-on bag of smaller than
    this size."

    Message: 75741
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 13:17:07

    Re: your statement on some people shouldn't have children, etc. ..."There
    must be some way to check on the indivudual" (parent)
    The very thought of such a thing as 'checking' makes my spine grow cold.
                                       *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75742
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/15/91  Time: 23:01:56

      Republican Benjamin Harrison, who succeeded Cleveland as
    President from 1889 to 1893, was described by Matthew
    Josephson, in his colorful study of the post-Civil War
    years, *The Politicos*: "benjamin Harrison had the exclusive
    distinction of having served the railway corporations in the
    dual capacity of lawyer and soldier.  He prosecuted the
    strikers ((of 1877)) in the federal courts ... and he also
    organized and commanded a company of soldiers during the
    strike...."
      Harrison's term also saw a gesture toward reform.  The
    Sherman Anti-Trust Act, passed in 1890, called itself "An
    Act to protect trade and commerce against unlawful
    restraints" and made it illegal to form a "combination or
    conspiracy" to restrain trade in interstate or foreign
    commerce.  Senator John Sherman, author of the Act,
    explained the need to conciliate the critics of monopoly:
    "They had monopolies ... of old, but never before such
    giants as in our day.  You must heed their appeal or be
    ready for the socialist, the communist, the nihilist.
    Society is now disturbed by forces never felt before...."
      When Cleveland was elected President again in 1892, Andrew
    Carnegie, in Europe, received a letter from the manager of
    his steel plants, Henry Clay Frick: "I am very sorry for
    President Harrison, but I cannot see that our interests are
    going to be affected one way or the other by the change in
    administration."  Cleveland, facing the agitation in the
    country caused by the panic and depression of 1893, used
    troops to break up "Coxey's Army," a demonstration of
    unemployed men who had come to Washington, and again to
    break up the national strike on the railroads the following
    year.

    Message: 75744
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann to Melissa
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 05:13:54

     So what's your solution to the horrendous problem of child abuse, or aren't
    you aware of it's malignancy any more than you are aware of the problems of
    second hand smoke?
     Many, many cases of unbelievable unless you see it child abuse are born of
    nothing more nor less than ignorance on the part of people who were never
    prepared for parenthood. If you don't believe that, you really should take a
    seminar on the subject, as I did several years ago. It's a shocking eye
    opener. In my opinion, compulsory training should be a must for all
    prospective parents, and especially those who are nothing more than children
    themselves.

    Message: 75745
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 06:07:06

    I understand Ann's cold spine on this one.  I hate the government getting in
    to other peoples affairs.  However, we are forced to license ourselves to
    drive.  Having and raising another human being must be more important than
    that.  The physical part is hell, I've heard, but I would think (and hope)
    the hardest is the constant disipline one needs to teach.  And the
    unconditional love that should follow.  I'm just so sick and tired of
    hearing about children being abused, even with neglected.  Parenting classes
    would help, assuming the parents gave a rip.  It's just amazing to me how
    little people care about things these days.
    Welp, I'm off to a motorcycle training class.   My last day.  I'll tell you
    all about it later.

    Message: 75746
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Phones & Phoenix
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 07:48:30

            I heard the other day on the news that come July 15 all metro
    Phoenix will be one dial zone or something like that?  Does anyone know
    more as I only caught part of what was being said.   That will be good news
    for me if I don't have to keep paying for a ZONE 'A' number.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75747
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: WB's Rantings
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 07:51:02

    > Aren't politicians (at least in their own minds) a step below
    > God?  I say lets get the ropes out and REALLy find out...Hang
    > em all....The're all criminals anyway....

    Yeah!  That's it!  Let's take the easy way out and smear a whole class of
    individuals.  Most of whom are just like you and me.  Most of whom really
    are interested in doing something to improve our government and our lives.
    Let's do everything we can to discourage them from running for public
    office.

    And, while we're at it, let's do everything we can to further discourage the
    apathetic from voting; from making their voices heard.  Because as long as
    we can continue to narrow the scope of citizens willing to participate in
    public affairs at any level the better our chances of getting people we like
    in office.  People just like us.  Cynical.  Simplistic.  Ignorance is
    knowledge!  Pass it on!

    Message: 75748
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Paul-Rating Parents
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 07:51:24

    And who's going to set the standards for good parenting, Paul?  You?  Rod
    (who believes the teaching of religion is abuse)?

    What's the penalty for getting pregnant if you've flunked the course?
    Mandatory abortion?  Confiscation of the child?

    Who watches out for the rights of the children?  One of those state
    bureaucracies we all distrust so?

    Message: 75749
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on child
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 09:54:36

    Re: compulsory training of prospective parents ... you scare me to!
    I think the answer to child abuse would be to find out 'WHY' such things are
    so prevelent now. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75750
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Phone service
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 11:28:13

    I, too, just heard a snippet.  I didn't get the impression that it was a
    done deal.  However, I did hear that the proposal is for the basic service
    cost to increase to compensate for the loss in tolls (not completely, I
    hope, as TPC will be able to save in call logging and billing costs).

    Message: 75751
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 13:29:07

      Meanwhile, the Supreme Court, despite its look of somber,
    black-robed fairness, was doing its bit for the ruling
    elite.  How could it be independent, with its members chosen
    by the President and ratified by the Senate?  How could it
    be neutral between rich and poor when its members were often
    former wealthy lawyers, and almost always came from the
    upper class?  Early in the nineteenth century the Court laid
    the legal basis for a nationally regulated economy by
    establishing federal control over interstate commerce, and
    the legal basis for corporate capitalism by making
    contract sacred.
      In 1895 the Court interpreted the Sherman Act so as to
    make it harmless.  It said a monopoly of sugar refining was
    a monopoly in manufacturing, not commerce, and so could not
    be regulated by Congress through the Sherman Act (*U.S. v.
    E.C. Knight Co.*).  The Court also said the Sherman Act
    could be used against interstate strikes (the railway strike
    of 1894) because they were in restraint of trade.  It also
    declared unconstitutional a small attempt by Congress to tax
    high incomes at a higher rate (*Pollock v. Farmers' Loan &
    Trust Company*).  In later years it would refuse to break up
    the Standard Oil and American Tobacco monopolies, saying the
    Sherman Act barred only "unreasonable" combinations in
    restraint of trade.
      A New York banker toasted the Supreme Court in 1895: "I
    give you, gentlemen, the Supreme Court of the United
    States -- guardian of the dollar, defender of private
    property, enemy of spoliation, sheet anchor of the
    Republic."
      Very soon after the Fourteenth Amendmant became law, the
    Supreme Court began to demolish it as a protection for
    blacks, and to develop it as a protection for corporations.
    However, in 1877, a Supreme Court decision (*Munn v.
    Illinois*) approved state laws regulating the prices charged
    to farmers for the use of grain elevators.  The grain
    elevator company argued it was a person being deprived of
    property, thus violating the Fourteenth Amendment's
    declaration "nor shall any State deprive any person of life,
    liberty, or property without due process of law."  The
    Supreme Court disagreed, saying that grain elevators were
    not simply property but were invested with "a public
    interest" and so could be regulated.
      One year after that decision, the American Bar
    Association, organized by lawyers accustomed to serving the
    wealthy, began a national campaign of education to reverse
    the Court decision.  Its presidents said, at different
    times: "If trusts are a defensive weapon of property
    interests against the communistic trend, they are desirable."
    And: "Monopoly is often a necessity and an advantage."
      By 1886, they succeeded.  State legislatures, under the
    pressure of aroused farmers, had passed laws to regulate the
    rates charged farmers by the railroads.  The Supreme Court
    that year (*Wabash v. Illinois*) said states could not do
    this, that this was an intrusion on federal power.  That
    year alone, the Court did away with 230 state laws that had
    been passed to regulate corporations.
      By this time the Supreme Court had accepted the argument
    that corporations were "persons" and their money was
    property protected by the due process clause of the
    Fourteenth Amendment.  Supposedly, the Amendment had been
    passed to protect Negro rights, but of the Fourteenth
    Amendment cases brought before the Supreme Court between
    1890 and 1910, nineteen dealt with the Negro, 288 dealt with
    corporations.
      The justices of the Supreme Court were not simply
    interpreters of the Constitution.  They were men of certain
    backgrounds, of certain interests.  One of them (Justice
    Samuel Miller) had said in 1875: "It is vain to contend with
    Judges who have been at the bar the advocates for forty
    years of railroad companies, and all forms of associated
    capital...."  In 1893, Supreme Court Justice David J.
    Brewer, addressing the New York State Bar Association, said:
           It is the unvarying law that the wealth of the
         community will be in the hands of the few....  The
         great majority of men are unwilling to endure that long
         self-denial and saving which makes accumulation
         possible ... and hence it always has been, and until
         human nature is remodeled always will be true, that the
         wealth of a nation is in the hands of a few, while the
         many subsist upon the proceeds of their daily toil.
      This was not just a whim of the 1880s and 1890s -- it went
    back to the Founding Fathers, who had learned their law in
    the era of *Blackstone's Commentaries*, which said: "So
    great is the regard of the law for private property, that it
    will not authorize the least violation of it; no, not even
    for the common good of the whole community."

    Message: 75755
    Author: Norman Hilty
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: THANK YOU
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 18:30:23

    MY NAME IS NORM HILTY, I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR LOOKING AT
    YOUR BBS SYSTEM PLEASE CALL ME AFTER 5:00 I WOULD LIKE TO INROLE.
    MY PHONE IS 936-5468 THANK YOU.*

    Message: 75756
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Misc.
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 23:28:09

    Paul on Marquardt: The hypocrisy and injustice of a system that makes war on
                       people for having, selling, or smoking a leaf they enjoy;
                       while the drug warriors themselves can legally enjoy much
                       more dangerous substances; is a much larger issue to me
                       than what happens to one 'tokin' judge. I brought up the
                       issue to comment on the horse manure being shoveled
                       around by the judge as he claimed to be another helpless
                       victim of "addiction." He was obviously banking on the
                       effects of years of silly anti-drug propaganda to help
                       him skirt the truth about marijuana, himself, and the
                       system in which he worked.

    Cliff on shooting: I'm glad to hear that nobody was hurt and the culprits
                       were found out. I hope you get full restitution and that
                       the kids and their parents learn from the experience. I
                       notice some references to you calling them 'potheads' at
                       some time, but I can't find the reference. Did you remove
                       it without comment after it was questioned?

      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 75757
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: New User
    Date: 06/16/91  Time: 23:42:01

            Please welcome Dave Bolman as Apollo's newest $tatus user.
    Dave is a Macintosh user.....   We seem to be getting a number of
    Mac users...Hmmmmmm

            Anyway, say Hi to David and give him a week or so before you fry
    him.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75758
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/phones
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 05:14:15

    There is a proposal before the corporation commission that calls for a
    consolidation of almost all of the valley, with the exception of BlackCanyon
    City and one other. The proposal also calls for a 22% increase in basic
    residential rates, and a 25% increase in business rates. What we gain on the
    bananas, we lose on the oranges.
     There is another very interesting little thing that U.S.West is proposing
    to the commission for approval, and that is caller ID. For about $50, plus
    $6 per month, you would get a little box next to your phone that would show
    the number from which you are being called, and the name of the listed owner
    of that number. That could be quite a handy thing to have if you get a lot
    of anonymous harrassing calls.

    Message: 75759
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/parenting
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 05:24:57

     Well Bill, for starters, I guess the ones who would set the standards would
    be the same committee that started out to design a horse and got a camel.
     As to  your second question, there would be no failures, or at least no
    pregnancies for failures, since chastity belts (with the same committee
    holding the locks, of course) would be mandatory for all females until they
    have passed the course.
     And of course there would have to be another bureaucracy to enforce the
    whole concept and watch out for the kids. After all, we still have a little
    left after taxes, don't we?
     Excuse me, while I get my tongue unstuck from my cheek.
     Seriously now, there is, of course, no perfect solution. I do think,
    however, that at least some training in the imperfect art of parenthood
    would be beneficial in many cases. I remember one case in a child abuse
    seminar I took some years ago, in which a mother thought the best way to
    potty train her child was to immerse the child's bottom, genitals included,
    into a pan of scalding water. Pictures were included for emphasis. Could not
    some pre-delivery training have prevented this horror, based on nothing less
    than pure ignorance?
     If you don't like my suggestions, do you have a viable alternative?

    Message: 75760
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 05:26:46

    We know why, in a good many cases. At least one answer is to abolish
    ignorance. Any good suggestions, other than training?

    Message: 75761
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: David Bolman
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 05:30:16

    Hi David. WElcome to Apollo.
     Would you prefer to be fried in butter or non-stick pans?
    Hey Cliff! Why do we have to wait a week? Anybody who uses a Mac should be
    used to the frying pan!

    Message: 75762
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Pauley on parents
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 06:07:50

    Re: your ... "Any good suggestions, other than training?"
    Yeah - minding one's own business!

    You also mentioned .... "We know why, in a good many cases." Ok - tell us.
    This is a good subject for us to start up on. Real food for thought.
                                *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75763
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: David
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 06:08:44

    Welcome David to Apollo - the mildest, sweetest, warmest BBS in the Valley.
    Heh heh heh. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75764
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Welcome, Norm!
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 07:25:07

    Hi, Norm!

    Everything you need to know about joining Apollo is in the Main Menu.  Try
    the <$>tatus command.

    Hope you enroll and enjoy the system!

    Message: 75765
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Paul-Child Abuse
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 07:25:43

    > ...a mother thought the best way to potty train her child was
    > to immerse the child's bottom, genitals included, into a pan of
    > scalding water.

            One of my most important video projects while working for law
    enforcement was a series on the detection of child abuse, so I'm well aware
    of the dreadful things some parents do to their children.
            I cannot believe that mother truly thought that was the best way to
    potty-train her child.  Common sense dictates that is rubbish!  And I'm
    surprised you would seize on so feeble a reed for your arguments.
            Training and certification is not the solution.  In fact, just as
    with drug abuse, bank robbery and murder, there is no solution.  We can only
    hope to catch the individuals inclined to do these things before they do
    them and offer whatever we can in the way of treatment or diversion.
    Failing that, they should be treated as the criminals they are.

    Message: 75766
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: David Bolman
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 08:04:53

    Welcome to Apollo. We don't care what kind of computer you use, just your
    religious convictions, political leanings, and whether you smoke. :-)

    Message: 75767
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Raising Kids
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 08:06:12

    We used Dr. Spock's book as a guide.

    Message: 75768
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Norm Hilty
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 08:09:55

    Welcome to Apollo, Norm. Please join us in any of the discussions you find
    amusing or interesting.

    Message: 75769
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: The Lost Warehouse
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 12:41:04

            From the Internet: THE LEGEND OF THE LOST WAREHOUSE

    In 1989, Montgomery Ward had a large sale of "discontinued, one-of-a-kind,
    and out-of-date merchandise."  The reason for this sale is interesting.

    Four years earlier, around 1985, Ward's had reprogrammed their master
    inventory program.  Somehow, the entry for the major distribution warehouse
    in Redding, California, was left out.  One day the trucks simply stopped
    coming.  Nothing was brought into the warehouse, and nothing left.

    Paychecks for the employees, however, were on a different system, and kept
    coming.  While this was baffling to the employees, they figured it was
    better not to make waves.  Rumor has it that they were afraid the warehouse
    had been phased out, but the company had "forgotten" to lay them off.  They
    figured it was better to stay employed.  So they went to work every day,
    moved boxes around the warehouse, and submitted timecards for three years.

    Finally, someone doing an audit wondered why major amounts of merchandise
    had simply disappeared.  By tracing things back, the missing warehouse was
    rediscovered.  Ward's was then stuck with an entire warehouse full of white
    elephants -- merchandise that was three years out of date.  Thus, Ward's
    stores throughout California ended up with huge amounts of discontinued
    merchandise to sell at deep discounts.  Ward's, very embarrassed, played
    down how these goods were "found" -- or came to be lost in the first place.

    Message: 75770
    Author: Gabriel Salas
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: HELLO?HELLO?
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 13:19:34

    WELL I'VE BEEN OFF THE OLD COMMIE AND IT'S GOO
    TO SEE

    Message: 75771
    Author: Gabriel Salas
    Category: In search of
    Subject: HELLO?!
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 13:31:48

    HE
    HELLO PEOPLES IT HARD TO BEEC
    BELIEVE THAT THERE IS STILL SOME REALL
    BBSING STILL GOING ON .CAN YOU BELIVEVE IT!
    AFTER 3 YEARS OFF MY COMMIE AND THE FRIST NUMMBER I CALL A BBS IS UP!
    I STIILL IN S
    A DAZE OVER THE WHOLE THING! ANYWAYS WHATS GOING ON IN THE OLD COMMIE WOLR
    TRY IT A GAIN WORLD.?SORRY ABOUT THE TYPE ERRORS I'M GETTING LINE NOISE.
    BUT YOU UNDERSTAND RIGHT?WELL BETTER END THIS MESSAGE HERE .BUT BE FOR I
    QUIT ANY W
    ONE WITH A COMMIE(COMMODE-COMMODORE) LEAVE ME A SING SIGN THAT I'M NOT ALONE
    BPLEASE!
    CHAT WITH YA LATTER.

    Message: 75772
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 14:41:22

    I hope Cliff doesn't edit those last two messages.

    Message: 75773
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 18:03:22

      Control in modern times requires more than force, more
    than law.  It requires that a population dangerously
    concentrated in cities and factories, whose lives are filled
    with cause for rebellion, be taught that all is right as it
    is.  And so, the schools, the churches, the popular
    literature taught that to be rich was a sign of superiority,
    to be poor a sign of personal failure, and that the only way
    upward for a poor person was to climb into the ranks of the
    rich by extraordinary effort and extraordinary luck.
      In those later years after the Civil War, a man named
    Russel Conwell, a graduate of Yale Law School, a minister,
    and author of best-selling books, gave the same lecture,
    "Acres of Diamonds," more than five thousand times to
    audiences across the country, reaching several million
    people in all.  His message was that anyone could get rich
    if he tried hard enough, that everywhere, if people looked
    closely enough, were "acres of diamonds."  A sampling:
           I say that you ought to get rich, and it is your duty
         to get rich....  The men who get rich may be the most
         honest men you find in the community.  Let me say here
         clearly ... ninety-eight out of one hundred of the rich
         men of America are honest.  That is why they are rich.
         That is why they are trusted with money.  That is why
         they carry on great enterprises and find plenty of
         people to work with them.  It is because they are
         honest men....
           ... I sympathize with the poor, but the number of poor
         who are to be sympathized with is very small.  To
         sympathize with a man whom God has punished for his
         sins ... is to do wrong.... let us remember there is
         not a poor person in the United States who was not made
         poor by his own shortcomings....
      Conwell was a founder of Temple University.  Rockefeller
    was a donor to colleges all over the country and helped
    found the University of Chicago.  Huntington, of the Central
    Pacific, gave money to two Negro colleges, Hampton Institute
    and Tuskegee Institute.  Carnegie gave money to colleges and
    to libraries.  Johns Hopkins was founded by a millionaire
    merchant, and millionaires Cornelius Vanderbilt, Ezra
    Cornell, James Duke, and Leland Stanford created
    universities in their own names.
      The rich, giving part of their enormous earnings in this
    way, became known as philanthropists.  These educational
    institutions did not encourage dissent; they trained the
    middlemen in the American system -- the teachers, doctors,
    lawyers, administrators, engineers, technicians, politicians
    -- those who would be paid to keep the system going, to be
    loyal buffers against trouble.
      In the mean time, the spread of public school education
    enabled the learning of writing, reading, and arithmetic for
    a whole generation of workers, skilled and semiskilled, who
    would be the literate labor force of the new industrial age.
    It was important that these people learn obedience to
    authority.  A journalist observer of the schools in the
    1890s wrote: "The unkindly spirit of the teacher is
    strikingly apparent; the pupils being completely subjugated
    to her will, are silent and motionless, the spiritual
    atmosphere of the classroom is damp and chilly."
      Back in 1859, the desire of mill owners in the town of
    Lowell that their workers be educated was explained by the
    secretary of the Massachusetts Board of Education:
           The owners of factories are more concerned than other
         classes and interests in the intelligence of their
         laborers.  When the latter are well-educated and the
         former are disposed to deal justly, controversies and
         strikes can never occur, nor can the minds of the
         masses be prejudiced by demagogues and controlled by
         temporary and factious considerations.
    Joel Spring, in his book *Education and the Rise of the
    Corporate State*, says: "The development of a factory-like
    system in the nineteenth-century schoolroom was not
    accidental."
      This continued into the twentieth century, when William
    Bagley's *Classroom Management* became a standard teaching
    text, reprinted thirty times.  Bagley said: "One who studies
    educational theory aright can see in the mechanical routine
    of the classroom the educative forces that are slowly
    transforming the child from a little savage into a creature
    of law and order, fit for the life of a civilized society."
      It was in the middle and late nineteenth century that high
    schools developed as aids to the industrial system, that
    history was widely required in the curriculum to foster
    patriotism.  Loyalty oaths, teacher certification, and the
    requirement of citizenship were introduced to control both
    the educational and political quality of teachers.  Also, in
    the latter part of the century, school officials -- not
    teachers -- were given control over textbooks.  Laws passed
    by the states barred certain kinds of textbooks.  Idaho and
    Montana, for instance, forbade textbooks propagating
    "political" doctrines, and the Dakota territory ruled that
    school libraries could not have "partisan political
    pamphlets or books."

    Message: 75777
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: phones
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 23:22:25

    Hi Cliff....guess it has been a while since I have posted....School has been
    keeping me really busy....Thank goodness this is my LAST week.  Starting
    Thursday I am on a 3 week break!!!!!  YEAH!!!  I need it.
      About the phone service, I heard that we were going to no LD with the
    greater Phoenix area in Sept '92.  Why then I don't know, unless it is to
    allow the phone company a little longer to rip us off....
    later

    Message: 75778
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: I hear you
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 23:27:15

    complaining.  But that is about it.  What do you suggest we do to get the
    people out and be heard?????  Got an answer for me.....  Before you accuse
    me of ranting, you should look at your self first.  Hmmmm....so most
    politicians are like you and me??????  How can you make such an ignorant
    statement ( See I can use big words too)?  I have never know a poor
    politician.  They are elected to uphold our trust.  When they don't we
    SHOULD start to look at them.... And I have news for ya, ignorance is NOT
    knowledge, even if you wish it to be so.

    Message: 75779
    Author: $ Wild Barbarian
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: telephone service
    Date: 06/17/91  Time: 23:29:06

    fees are supposed to go up $10 to $12.  Forgot to mention it in my last
    post.

    Message: 75780
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/parenting
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 05:31:12

     "Minding one's own business" translates into "not getting involved", and
    that lack of concern has caused the death of many abused children that could
    have been prevented. That, my dear, is no solution.
     Why are children abused? We could come up with reasons for hours, possible,
    but if one area was eliminated, probably 80-90% of abuse cases could be
    turned around before they occur.That area? Ignorance. Pure, simple ignorance
    on the part of people totally unprepared for the rigors and frustrations of
    child rearing. We have both raised enough kids to remember the frustrations
    that occur when situations arise that we were not fully prepared to handle.
    Even the simple things, like the baby messing a diaper within seconds of a
    change can be upsetting. A baby's crying when they can't tell you why can be
    one of the most frustrating experiences of young parenthood. If a parent has
    not been made aware of the proper way to handle situations as they arise, or
    if, as in many cases these days, the parent is little more than a child
    herself and not nearly mature enough to handle the awesome responsibility of
    parenthood, you have the perfect setup for child abuse.
     Then, of course, we have the all to often demonstrated axiom that an abused
    child will grow up into a child abuser. Again, the source here is ignorance,
    first on the part of the original parent, and repeated in the life of the
    child who grows up thinking that this abusive lifestyle is the norm.
     The primary cure for this stigma on society is still education. Whether it
    is ever made compulsory or not probably depends on just how serious we are
    as a nation about dealing with the problem.

    Message: 75781
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/abuse
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 05:38:07

     See my message to Ann.
     My statement (on the mother who thought the immersion was the best way to
    potty train) was probably a poor choice of words on my part. The event did
    happen, however. No doubt out of frustration and lack of preparation for the
    responsibilities of parenthood, along with a lack of the maturity necessary
    to raise a child. Much child abuse (and I do mean MUCH!) comes during the
    toilet training of the child. THese are trying times, indeed, and a source
    of much frustration and exasperation for a parent not really ready for
    parenthood. Training and certification may not be THE answer, but it sure
    wouldn't hurt! I agree with you, there is no single solution to the problem,
    but that knowledge should not deter us from trying every avenue of
    prevention we can to assure children of their right to grow up as well
    adjusted, loved and unabused people.

    Message: 75782
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dr. Spock
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 05:40:15

    Probably the ruination of a generation. A system that the doctor himself
    repudiated in later years, when he realized what monsters he created.

    Message: 75783
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: War!
    Subject: Paul/Spock
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 07:42:52

    Oh yes, my children aged 22 and 24 are monsters. One has a BS in mathematics
    and is working on the Mars space probe and the other is a junior at ASU in
    the Nursing program.

    Message: 75784
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 07:56:34

    Kinda turns your stomach, don't it.

    Message: 75785
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: WB FUMES
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 07:57:02

    > [I'd include a quote here, but I can't find much of anything
    > coherent that summarizes your reply to me.]

    If you'd do something besides bluster and harangue, perhaps we could have an
    interesting discussion on this subject.

    > What do you suggest we do to get the people out and be heard?
            Stop repeating and lending credence to the cries of a commercialized
    media that feeds on our fears and blood lust.

    > Before you accuse me of ranting, you should look at your self
    > first. ... ignorance is NOT knowledge, even if you wish it to
    > be so.
            I was parodying you.  Sorry you missed the point.  I'll try to be
    less subtle in the future.

    > I have never know a poor politician.  They are elected to
    > uphold our trust.
            What do these have to do with one another?

    > How can you make such an ignorant statement ( See I can use big
    > words too)?
            These are big words?

    Message: 75786
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Abusing Paul
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 07:57:32

    > ...in many cases these days, the parent is little more than a
    > child herself and not nearly mature enough to handle the
    > awesome responsibility of parenthood...

            Better make that HIMself, too, Paul.  :)
            I think you've hit the nail right on the head.  And, it seems, we're
    seeing more and more immature people of ALL ages these days.  Unfortunately,
    training and education have little to do with developing maturity.  Maybe
    some kind of "family life" classes should be added to high school (junior
    high?) curriculum.  I wonder what other class we should drop to make room;
    perhaps math, science, English?

    Message: 75787
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley on parenting
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 08:58:12

    I don't think it's any government, organization, club or what have you -
    responsibility to educate you, me or anyone on how to raise a child. The
    only responsibility I see is of the parents - in teaching their children on
    raising their own and most importantly, to live as an example.
    Child abuse has always been around, but I truly think it's more prevalent
    today than in the past. Why? If I knew that I could solve the problem, but I
    do think that our society is partly to blame. We still have the ideas about
    love, marriage and having babies - goals! Yet, we just got through with a
    phase called the 'me generation' (I hope its over) where the individual came
    first over all others - where marriage is considered temporary and maybe the
    second or third one will stick - divorce is as common as the sun coming up!
    Not only that, but the way our economy is, both married people MUST work to
    put a roof over their heads. No one is staying home with the kids and
    teaching them anything. It seems that people are more concerned with their
    sex lives, careers, material good looks and possessions, than their kids.
    We have, as a society, rebelled against sexual restraints, discrimination of
    any sort, et al - but of course, being the human's that we are, we went a
    tad overboard. Getting back a bit (only! I'd hate to give up all things) to
    the basics would help I believe. To live by example, not force others to do
    what you think is right. I don't know how we can handle both parents
    working, but in my reasoning, it stands to reason that one of them should
    stay home at least until the kids start to school and even then, try to be
    home by the time the kid comes home. A kid can't raise themselves and learn
    too much! This is my opinion only, I really don't know the answer.

    Message: 75788
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 09:04:47

    Re: your .... "there is no single solution to the problem, but that
    knowledge should not deter us from trying every avenue of prevention we can
    assure children of their right to grow up ....."

    'Every avenue of prevention???' If that is the case, then every child should
    be taken away from it's parents at birth and raised by the state. If I'm not
    mistaken, Hitler did just that and was highly seccessful too!  All those
    little kiddies the Nazi's raised turned out EXACTLY as he wanted them too -
    they were all well behaved and fit into society perfectly and did EXACTLY
    what they were told. Pillers of that society! Perfect humans!
                         *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 75789
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 10:29:46

    What does that have to do with whether they're monsters or not?

    Message: 75790
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: 75784
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 10:40:48

    Makes me wonder where we went wrong. After re-reading what I said, I was
    struck by the oxymoron of calling 22 and 24 year-old adults children.

    Message: 75791
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Child Abuse/Ann
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 10:46:49

    I think part of it is that child abuse is getting more media attention and
    is being reported more often than in the past. I suspect that these kinds of
    things have always happened, but that the victims had no recourse but to
    take the punishment. So, I think we have become more aware of the problem.

    On the other hand, we could blame the Republicans since they have held the
    Presidential office for over ten years and the rate of child abuse has
    soared during these administrations.

    Or we could blame fundamentalists. A recent poll had an astounding number of
    people who say they have been born again. Something like 70 percent. This
    increase in born-again Christians could account for the increase in child
    abuse. How ? I don't have the foggiest idea. But it IS suspicious isn't it ?

    Message: 75792
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Michael
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 10:48:03

    And they are well behaved also.

    Message: 75793
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 18:00:23

      Against this gigantic organization of knowledge and
    education for orthodoxy and obedience, there arose a
    literature of dissent and protest, which had to make its way
    from reader to reader against great obstacles.  Henry
    George, a self-educated workingman from a poor Philadelphia
    family, who became a newspaperman and an economist, wrote a
    book that was published in 1879 and sold millions of copies,
    not only in the United States, but all over the world.  His
    book *Progress and Poverty* argued that the basis of wealth
    was land, that this was becoming monopolized, and that a
    single tax on land, abolishing all others, would bring
    enough revenue to solve the problem of poverty and equalize
    wealth in the nation.  Readers may not have been persuaded
    of his solutions, but they could see in their own lives the
    accuracy of his observations:
           It is true that wealth has been greatly increased,
         and that the average of comfort, leisure and refinement
         has been raised; but these gains are not general.  In
         them the lowest class do not share....  This
         association of poverty with progress is the great
         enigma of our times....  There is a vague but general
         feeling of disappointment; an increased bitterness
         among the working classes; a widespread feeling of
         unrest and brooding revolution....  The civilized world
         is trembling on the verge of a great movement.  Either
         it must be a leap upward, which will open the way to
         advances yet undreamed of, or it must be a plunge
         downward which will carry us back toward barbarism....
      A different kind of challange to the economic and social
    system was given by Edward Bellamy, a lawyer and writer from
    western Massachusetts, who wrote, in simple, intriguing
    language, a novel called *Looking Backward*, in which the
    author falls asleep and wakes up in the year 2000, to find a
    socialistic society in which people work and live
    cooperatively.  *Looking Backward*, which described
    socialism vividly, lovingly, sold a million copies in a few
    years, and over a hundred groups were organized around the
    country to try to make the dream come true.
      It seemed that despite the strenuous efforts of government,
    business, the church, the schools, to control their thinking,
    millions of Americans were ready to consider harsh criticism
    of the existing system, to contemplate other possible ways
    of living.  They were helped in this by the great movements
    of workers and farmers that swept the country in the 1880s
    and 1890s.  These movements went beyond the scattered
    strikes and tenants' struggles of the period 1830-1877.
    They were nationwide movements, more threatening than
    before to the ruling elite, more dangerously suggestive.

    It was a time when revolutionary organizations existed in
    major American cities, and revolutionary talk was in the
    air.

    Message: 75796
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Phones
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 19:16:19

      Yes, I read that part in the paper about most of the Phoenix metro area
    being one dialing area.  It makes sense.  Telephone technology these days
    makes the small zones an anachronism.
      The Caller-ID option sounds great.
      From some discussions of phone technology on another board, it appears
    that the caller's phone-number is already transmitted to your phone before
    the ring signal, but none of our phones does anything with the information
    yet.  Someone who knows what he's doing could build nearly as good a box
    himself, if that's true, and forgo the $6/month charge (though he might end
    up with only the caller's number, and not his name).
      Imagine a BBS that could look into the ID-box when a call comes in, in
    order to check up on strange people who log in under multiple names!

      We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

    Message: 75797
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Question?
    Subject: USA Today
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 20:31:15

    Did anybody get today's issue?  I'd like the full-page thing on Scientology
    (or more, if there is).  Send me some mail if you have it and we'll work out
    some way for me to get it.  Thanks.

    Message: 75798
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: New (old) User?
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 21:12:14

            Please welcome Paul Carelli as Apollo's newest (old) user.
    Paul was once a regular member of Apollo untill he vanished in 1985.
    Well, he's BAAAAAAAACK!

            P.S.  Paul no longer has his Atari, he now is a IBM Clone user....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75799
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/Phones
    Date: 06/18/91  Time: 21:22:41

            Yea, someone in the police department told me that info is already
    there (The Phone Number) and all we need is the right hardware to read it.
    I was not sure of his info, but hearing it from you may give me something to
    think about.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 75800
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 06/19/91  Time: 02:09:44

    If marijuana makes people more agreeable, but dumber then what does alcohol
    do along those lines?

    Message: 75801
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: News Today
    Subject: V-A-C-A-T-I-O-N, 1-4
    Date: 06/19/91  Time: 02:28:48

    My Vacation, by Rod Williams

    Each year I take some sort of vacation in order to relieve the repetition
    of everyday life.  Some are planned and some are not.  This one was not.

    This year's vacation, beginning Friday evening last, I embarked on my trip
    which took me to death's door and back again.  It was a remarkable and
    refreshing experience, one I will not soon forget.

    The first sign that something different was occurring began when a tooth's
    nerve shot my brain a loud message.  "Ouch", I said.  From then on it only
    became worse.  By Saturday afternoon all I could do was to lie still and
    try to make friends with the pronounced rhythm of the pain.  My whole jaw
    was aching and gargling with salt water only helped a little.

    We have a family dentist, a very good man but I knew he took weekends off
    the same as I, so I did not want to take him away from his family during his
    precious off hours.  I felt that I could hold out until Monday when I would
    make an appointment, less than 48 hours away.

    By Saturday evening my mouth felt like it was on fire and I was noticeably
    weaker than when this episode began.  I had some 2 year old Empirin
    Compound #3 (3 grains codeine) in my medicine cabinet from a previous
    experience so I took one of the six remaining in the bottle.  It helped.

    During the long night between fits of sleep and wakefulness I took several
    more, being sure not to take them closer than four hours apart.  Several
    times I sat bolt upright in bed and my mouth felt like World War III was
    being waged.  I wondered how severe the pain would have been without the
    help of the pills.

    The pain was so intense that I considered trying to find someone who had
    cocaine but it was the middle of the night and I gave up on this idea.  I
    thought about using my small vice-grip pliers to yank my tooth out.  I
    thought about tying a string around my tooth and the other end around an
    anvil that I have then dropping the anvil in order to remove my tooth.  I
    thought of all sorts of things but basically I just laid or sat in pain
    waiting for Monday to come.

    My tooth was so sensitive that just to lightly touch it with my tongue
    would cause pain to well up.  But by this time it was my gum area that was
    tender as an abscess was in the works.

    Sunday morning, 7:30 A.M. I again woke up from the severity of the pain and
    went and sat at my desk.  I knew I had another day to go but I couldn't
    imagine how I would be able to handle it.

    All of a sudden I felt dizzy and the room began to spin.  I was feeling
    hot so while Jasmine was up somewhere in the house and the rest of the
    family slept I went to my bed, turned on a fan, laid down and took my shirt
    off.  Everything after that happened very fast.  I began to feel very cold,
    my body was now profusely sweating and that fan was making it worse.  I
    barely remember crawling out of bed to turn it off but I felt I must.  I
    realized that I was going into shock so I put my pillow under my heels and
    covered up with my blanket but I was still very cold.

    My mind was spinning and my body was squirming on the bed and I realized
    that death wasn't far off.  I wanted my wife to come but there was no way
    to call her as I could not speak or navigate myself to her.

    I was not afraid.  I got to a point where all pain left me and I felt
    absolutely peaceful.  Nothing hurt, no aches, pains, or worries were with
    me.  A great feeling.

    I then heard my wife say, "Oh, you don't look good at all."  She had
    walked in while I was dying and I was glad.  I wasn't afraid to die, I
    remember thinking how neat and peaceful and easy it all was but I thought
    the timing inappropriate since I have some little children in my charge and
    what difficulties this event would cause.

    I did not want a bunch of paramedics to come over so I fought away the
    thick cloud and said, "I'll be okay", "Get me another pillow for my feet
    and another blanket, I'm cold."

    I knew I was coming out of shock when the pain started returning.  I knew
    I was getting (sic) better when I could feel the throb of my aching mouth.

    My wife phoned our dentist at his home and he immediately called in a
    prescription for Penicillin and some pain tablets.  I've taken the
    Penicillin on schedule but no longer have need for the codeine.  He did
    caution me to use cold rather than hot in or near my mouth area.

    Today is the first day I've had energy to get up and about.  I see the
    dentist tomorrow about my tooth.

    About my near death experience, it was truly great, making me see close up,
    once again, like a refresher course, how easy and fun death can be.

                                            Rod

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