### Apollo BBS Archive - August 18, 1991

    Mail from Todd Reese
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 03:56:04

    Nope - I'm not over here playing football for Jesus....  but rather going
    through the motions of getting a degree so I can prove to the fetching world
    that I can work for them.  You know the story.  I can't beat 'em, so I might
    as well join them.

    Actually, though, the school over here is great.  It's a million times
    better than ASU.  It's quiet, peaceful, and I learn a lot too.  And I don't
    have to hear about the Arizona Republic, and hardly anyone knows who Evan
    Mecham is  (or cares when I tell them).

    There is also a lot to learn about different cultures here.  This is truly
    the most "international" campus in the world.  We have 56 countries
    represented here with 20+ languages spoken.  I have learned to appreciate
    the differences of the world.

    I would agree with you that public prayers that do nothing more than lip
    service for the person saying the prayer are wrong.  There are, however,
    many humble and sincere prayers offered in public that I don't feel are in
    conflict with the scripture you mentioned.  How did your campaign go?

    Have a good one...  will sign in about a month from now....

    TSR

    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Thanks for the letter, it sounds like you are going through a period that
     2:you will look at in the future with a great fondness.
     3:
     4:The "campaign" went very well with several of the fundamentalists going 'ga
     5:ga' and not logging on much lately.  Thanks in a big part to Gordon Little
     6:and the weight of his messages.  He has a very good style.  I learned from
     7:the debate as Gordon put the bibical Paul in a good context that I had never
     8:considered before.
     9:
    10:Our little world is corrupt and religion is just one part of it.  When there
    11:is no longer any need for religious thinking then humans will be better off.
    12:When we accept each other as true brother and sister of the Universe then
    13:and only then will life improve.  That seems to be a long way off.
    14:
    15:When double cheeseburgers and a glass of cow's milk are found to be more
    16:harmful than a plant know as marijuana then also will pressures ease.
    17:
    18:Blax, Blax, Blax.
    19:                                Rod

    Mail from Apollo SysOp
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 10:55:07

            Sigh.....  Well, a tire tube is too thick and won't look right nor
    is it of OEM, and this is importaint to me...  I hope to enter the car in
    the upcoming MOPAR Fountain Hills show...  Well, I will keep looking, and at
    last resort, I will call the computer locating service...but so far every
    thing they have located for me has been very expensive.
            I hope you will keep looking for a while.... some lock smith must
    have a set laying around collecting dust... sigh....

            Thanks

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:If you need that OEM door lock you can have it for cheap and I can recode it
     2:to your combination using OEM pins.
     3:
     4:A thin wall bicycle innertube is about the correct thickness.
     5:
     6:Danny at Olde Car Shop, a body shop that restores vintage has a lot of
     7:sources but as you say, "expensive".  I'll get in touch with him sometime
     8:next week.  Many of the valley's locksmiths don't like me for the reason
     9:that I don't charge what they do but then again I don't have their overhead.
    10:
    11:Even James Hawley who spends around $800 per month on Yellow Page alone is
    12:out of my league.  My voice pager costs $20 per month, my van is paid for
    13:and I don't use a business phone.  My engine is a MoPar 225 slant six and I
    14:do all my own printing for cards and forms.  I can charge $20 for a job than
    15:another smith would charge $60 for and I can make more profit dollars.
    16:
    17:Anything you find in a wrecking yard would be too cracked for your purposes
    18:I would imagine.  Isn't there a company like Antique Ford Co. in existance
    19:for MoPar?

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 8033
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Daryl/fossil remains
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 00:05:47

    This is a bit impractical for most people, but for anybody who wants to see
    a good collection of early hominid remains, by far the best place to go is
    Africa.  That's hardly surprising, since so many of them were found in
    Africa, especially the most primitive types.  The National Museum of Kenya
    in Nairobi apparently has a good specimen of a Homo erectus skull, the same
    general type as Peking man, along with many other remains.  There are a
    number of skulls in the National Museum of Tanzania, Dar es Salaam, and the
    Transvaal Museum, Pretoria, South Africa.  The Musee de l'Homme in Paris has
    at least one good Neanderthal skull.  Perhaps more, since it is a museum of
    anthropology.  With any luck I should get a chance to see it some time.  I
    would expect to find some kind of remains in many of the world's major
    museums, though, including the Smithsonian in Washington.  I always meant to
    get to the Smithsonian and haven't gotten around to it yet.

    Message: 8034
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: Gordon on my butt
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 07:31:31

    > I think that if a thought's worth presenting, it's worth
    > presenting well.

    I hang my head in shame at having ridiculed you for doing what you do so
    well.  And that, of course, helping the rest of us explore notions that we
    would not have otherwise.

    > I'm quite convinced that the pimple on your butt is of utterly
    > cosmic significance.

    Boy, it sure is when I'm on the toilet.  Youch!

    Message: 8035
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 17:22:14

    I'd love it if we could stop eating, actually.  But only if we never knew
    the joy of taste.  And then, what would happen to oral sex?

    Message: 8036
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 18:55:52

      There are some days that I could do without having to interrupt
    interesting activities to eat or sleep.
    (the only thing I hate worse than going to bed is getting up in the
    morning...)

    Message: 8037
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: MELISSA
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 20:05:25

    Good point.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 5013
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 05:09:17

    What makes you think I'm bored?  Studying Dahmer would be fascinating.  The
    last thing society should do is kill him.

    Message: 5014
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 13:45:22

    Dahmer for President?

    Message: 5015
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 17:25:48

    So, after he "outlasted his usefulness" by being studied, what would you do
    with him then?

    Message: 5016
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 20:08:30

    Slip a knockout drug in his milk and then when he was asleep, molest his
    dick then cut him up, strip and paint his skull and prepare dinner.

    I'm a poetic kind of guy.

    FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1773
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gordon's Theory
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 07:32:52

    > I am working on a theory that the flavor of one SIG leaks into
    > the adjacent SIG.

    Of this theory there can be no doubt.  It happens over and over again.  Even
    as we speak Nick has brought something from the [COS]mos into the [MUS]ic
    SIG.

    It does, however, make it difficult on those of us who seek to exert power
    over others by deciding what may and may not be said from SIG to SIG.

    [wink][wink][nudge][nudge]

    Message: 1774
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Review
    Subject: The Grifters
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 07:33:15

    Rented "The Grifters" last night.

    Good stuff!  A character study in which things actually happen!  Angelica
    Huston and John Cusak were wonderful; Annette Bening delicious.

    Highly recommended.

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 77612
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/last
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 00:07:47

    I thought it was Hitler who did that :)

    Message: 77613
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/M&Ms
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 00:08:12

    Good point!  If you can't push your way past the crowd of pigs round the
    pork barrel, at least you get a hand in the cookie jar as consolation prize.

    Message: 77614
    Author: Mark Adkins
    Category: Question?
    Subject: G.Ordon L.ittle
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 00:30:27

    GL>> It's important to understand that people always do things for their own
    GL>> reasons, not for other people's reasons.

    How would you be able to tell?  Or do you simply assume, a priori, as an
    article of faith, that people never do things for "other people's reasons"?
    What do you believe about the concept of altruism?  Do you believe that if a
    person does something which benefits others, but causes that person great
    suffering or even death, that the person is only acting in his or her
    self-interest?  I suppose that, *whatever* someone does, you can assert that
    that person does it in his or her self-interest, but that sort of
    hypothesis is not falsifiable.  What is your opinion of non-falsifiable
    hypotheses?

    Message: 77616
    Author: Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/77597
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 00:52:25

    GL>> The human race need not fear that it will become extinct any time soon,
    GL>> if only people will pull together instead of putting one another down
    GL>> and killing one another.  If we can all agree on this point, there will
    GL>> be no need for any one individual to be physically threatened by
    GL>> another's existence.

    Well, naturally, if everyone were nice and considerate of others, it would
    be a different world.  The problem is, humans are only weakly mutualistic.
    I'm sure you're not sanguine enough to imagine that suddenly, everyone is
    going to "smile on their brothers and sisters" and that, from that
    generation on, no one born into the world will behave selfishly.  The
    solution is not simply telling people to be more considerate; that's a
    little like telling people to "visualize world peace" and expecting everyone
    to lay down their arms.  What is required is swift, sure, and harsh justice.
    The selfish will not respond to exhortations to universal brotherhood, nor
    will they pay attention to arguments telling them that it is in their
    rational best interest to behave (because often, it isn't); they will
    respond to being swatted like flies, and those few who are too stupid to be
    intimidated will stand out like sore thumbs and make their swatting that
    much easier.
    Most of the trouble is caused by a few select goblins anyway, so it isn't as
    though a police state is required to get the job done.  However, people
    should be encouraged to take an active role, and the courts and police
    should be told to lay off those who act in the best interests of society.

    Message: 77618
    Author: Mark Adkins
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Reality
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 05:15:17

    Here's a puzzle for the little grey cells:
       Assuming you believe in the physicalist model of reality (i.e., no
    supernatural agencies, everything follows the fundamental laws of
    physics), you believe that the mind is a result of the function of
    the brain and nervous system, which as material entities, must surely
    follow the laws of physics.  Ultimately, you, along with the rest of
    the world, are made of particles, which jostle each other about
    according to the laws of gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear
    force, and the weak nuclear force.  None of these particles has "free
    will," and none of them has "awareness."  None of them sees "meaning"
    in the operation of the world or in any of its constitutive bodies,
    since of course meaning requires perception and particles do not
    perceive.  These particles behave in an essentially deterministic
    fashion (at least, in a statistical sense).
       Since human beings are merely cohesive aggregates of these
    particles, their behavior is in theory reducible to the laws of physics
    as applied to particle interactions.  All human potentiality, then, is
    determined by the expression of the individual genome.  Actualities
    among these potentials (in an individual) are determined solely as a
    result of internal processes coded for by DNA along with the input
    from the environment in the form of vision (photons stimulating
    certain retinal cells whose impulses then cause neurons to fire),
    ...hearing (pressure waves in the atmosphere impinge on aural nerves
    which then cause neurons to fire), smell (molecules trigger olfactory
    cells whose impulses then cause neurons to fire), taste (molecules
    trigger gustatory cells whose impulses then cause neurons to fire),
    and touch (same sort of stuff).  Of course, actual sensations need
    not occur (phantom limb pain, etc.).

       The problem is, human beings are aware -- and try as you might,
    try a thousand hand-waving arguments, you can't get awareness from
    an aggregation of non-aware entities.  This has led some physicalists
    to assert that "awareness is an illusion, caused by different parts of
    the brain talking to each other," but clearly, this sort of talk is
    more appropriate to Zen mystics than to scientists.  Awareness is a
    common experience among people and higher animals, and while its
    nature and origin are subject to discussion, the basic phenomenon is
    undeniable.  Science which denies the observation it set out to
    explain is no longer science.  People certain *seem*  to have various
    degrees of free will.  People *do* see meaning.  The human mind is
    not a non-aware machine empty of everything but deterministic syntax.

       Therefore, I conclude that the physicalist model, as currently
    conceived, is incomplete.

    Message: 77620
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/Communist
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 06:31:09

    After reading _The New Russians_, I'm not so sure that the failure of the
    Soviet Union over the past 80 years hasn't been due as much to the
    prevailing attitudes of the working class and peasants as it has been to the
    motivational power of Marxism.  There is an inbred mistrust of someone who
    seems to get ahead.  There is an instinct not to "stand out" from one's
    peers.

    It will take these people a long time to get the hang of capitalism.  The
    ones who do first (and there are many already on the way) will pretty much
    own the rest of them.

    Message: 77621
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Planet
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 10:26:34

      But I LIKE to look at mountains and to have something to climb every now
    and then...
       Well, maybe the earth isn't the paradise you would like to live in.
    But there is a lot of beauty in it, especially those parts that men haven't
    spoiled.  I Don't think the earth is for sale, although there are a lot of
    people who would like to think they own it...

    Message: 77622
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Beauregard/Communism
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 10:40:54

      Then again, as I have understood Communist thought, It discourages
    individual effort and initiative anyway: Although individuals are encouraged
    to "work hard", they are not supposed to do so for themselves or their
    families, but for the State or the Party... and they don't personally
    benefit much. It seems like a pretty idea..everyone working for the common
    good and welfare.. but it doesn't work so well in practice.
      In our own society, the prevalent notion seems to be 'every man for
    himself and the devil take the hindmost'..but in spite of that, there is
    a good deal of cooperative effort, and as Adam Smith observed, an economic
    system based on that idea can actually produce a great deal of 'common
    welfare'. Somehow, there needs to be a system that provides some kind of a
    balance.

    Message: 77623
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Thad/balance
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 14:06:26

    How about all-out, total, nuclear war?

    What would be the loss?  One small planet of life forms in a vast ocean of
    seemingly unlimited space, mass and energy would not be any more noticible
    than a wart on a frogs bottom if it no longer existed.

    It doesn't seem to work here at this time and it doesn't seem that it will
    work any time soon.

    Hopefully there is, somewhere, a lifeform that has a beneficial environment,
    one that is fulfilling and not based on the ownership of others.  I aim to
    find that place if I am to continue being a living entity.  I will not
    settle for billionth best, however second best would be a good start.

    You mention that there are things about this planet that you like, such as
    mountains, etc.  How sad it must be to for you to wake up each day in the
    city, going out the door only to see a river of fuming automobiles roaring
    around everywhere you look.  Your children being held captive by the car's
    prime territory just as mine are.

    Our housing wearing year after year, collecting matter squashed between the
    cracks, paying our monthly tithes to our Lord of the Land in order to stay.
    Natural man, man of long ago (and in a few remaining places) had nature
    clean their dwellings as they move every so often.  But we have Lords...
    that demand, or else, a part of our efforts regardless of whether we have it
    or not.  Grace periods usually run longer when there are a lot of vacant
    dwellings.  Our houses are dinosaurs in that they require much fuel to be
    burnt to keep them cool or warm.  They may look pretty to the sight because
    that is what we have become accustomed to but they cause our environment to
    be eaten up and left heavily polluted at our expense.

    Everytime we turn on that air conditioner switch or start an electric motor
    or even use a refrigerator we are condeming our planet.

    Since change for the better would take a complete turn around and upheaval
    of our society, don't look for it to happen any time soon.  Humans are too
    tied in with current technology to change at this late date.  I can only see
    the last remaining human taking a gasping breath and thinking, "Gee", where
    did we go wrong?

    I am not trying to depress you as I think the whole thing is some sort of
    cosmic joke.  Just as our parents told us to go to sleep that we would feel
    better tomorror and we thought tomorrow would never come, that it seemed so
    far away, well tomorrow always came just as the finalization of this planet
    will come, the sooner the better.  Who needs this piece of #### that we call
    the flesh?  What good is it?

    Message: 77625
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rambling junk
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 14:29:27

    Is there anything you need or want from this entire planet?  I can honestly
    say no to that question.  All of the gold and diamonds are totally
    meaningless as is living in a mansion.  I'd rather live in a meadow and eat
    the wild mushrooms that grow there.  I'd rather sleep under the stars
    especially on moonless nights.

    My children aren't receiving love on this planet.  Sure we tell them we love
    them but the fact is that we worry about them more than we love them.  Worry
    about them growing up in this world and will we be able to convice them to
    conform to this idioticy, a system that only serves the Lords of the Land
    and the Lords of everything else.  I don't want that for them.  It sickens
    me to have to give them up to serve someone else.

    I ask them to get a good education so they might serve some higher
    corporation but the educators, for the most part, dole out crap which is
    full of falsehoods and doctrine designed to get people to follow the laid
    out system of this country, which is to serve masters for paper money so
    they can then be indebted for their entire life.

    These posts were typed online by me on a whim.  I'll have to go back and
    read what I said later.      -Rod

    Message: 77626
    Author: $ Thad Coons
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Planet
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 18:49:25

      It IS sad to see such things as a city full of automobiles spewing
    pollution everywhere, and so full of people that there is no room for
    frogs, lizards, and other miscellaneous small wonders... There are cleaner
    ways to run things, but they cost a little bit more, and it is always
    difficult and expensive to pioneer, especially in areas of technology.
      I spent two years in Bolivia, which is considered extremely poor and
    backward...and definitely the technology and general standard of living was
    not as "nice" as what we have... but to me, it didn't matter that much.
    Life is slower paced and the people there are not quite so much in a frantic
    rush to go places and do things.  Since an automobile is generally a luxury,
    they have MUCH better public transportation systems in their larger cities,
    and if they had a better education system and a decent government, I
    wouldn't mind living there...Until I started High School, I lived in a small
    town, and it didn't take a half-hour drive to get away from all the
    neighbors if you wanted a break from dealing with rudem crude, selfish, and
    nasty ones...

    Message: 77627
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thad/cleaner ways
    Date: 08/18/91  Time: 20:18:41

    Cleaner ways don't have to cost more unless you are dealing with a
    Capitalistic System.  If it were the way I would want it to be then
    everything would be free.  Maybe something like Rajneesh's system only
    without the religion or having a head person.  A tribunal of people, men,
    women, black, white, from all representative groups planning a better and
    freer life style.

    There is always the chance that even this would become corrupted so checks
    and balances would have to be worked out.  If people are not ready for peace
    then it would show by corruption on all sides.  If one group did not feel
    they were being treated equal then look for rumblings in that camp.  But
    prison is not the answer,neither is a hospital where strong drugs are forced
    into your mouth.  The answer is fair treatment for all.
    Building a better world takes finding the truth and then education of the
    masses.