### Apollo BBS Archive - September 22 - 23, 1989

    Message: 61140
    Author: Tom Weller  Note:  ***This is me.***
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 14:23:04

    Christians are some of the world's biggest puppets.  That's a fact.

    Message: 61141
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John R.
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:18:18

    Re:  "Your religion bothers me not because I secretly agree with it, but
    because I despise fatuity, hypocracy, pernicious hoaxes, mindless obesance,
    primitivism, neurosis, psychosis, mindless fear and awe, unnatural and
    deleterious inhibition, the persecution of the innocent, theft from the
    gullible and weak, bullies, obscurantists, liars, cheats, swindlers, and
    pettiness."

    You can find all the above anywhere human beings gather.  It is not just in
    religion.  To use religion as the whipping boy for all of life's problems is
    illogical.

    Message: 61142
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:20:14

    Re:  "They sent the $40 back, but fined us over $60 for sending too much."

    As incredible as it sounds, it also is typical of our government.  I would
    check with a tax friend before I sent in the money.

    Message: 61143
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tom W.
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:22:07

    Re:  "Christians are some of the world's biggest puppets."

    Why do you say that?  I don't follow you.  I'm a Christian, and I didn't
    think I was a big puppet.

    Message: 61144
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John Ross
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 18:20:03

    Re: "One cannot be all powerfull, all wise etc"
    You contradict yourself there. If God was not capable of so much as one
    facet of anything, he could not be termed all powerful. The mere fact
    that his capabilities are there donot in anyway nullify being perfect.
    AGain, you brush over the facts with a wave of your own icon of ignorance
    and in doing so write contradictory statements and assertions.
    One cannot be guilty of anything until a crime is committed. You somehow
    twist Gods abilities into a conviction. I have the ability to commit
    a crime, yet I refuse to. Somewhere you're missng this.
    "How can Gods love for man be unconditonal if it depends on mans love fore
    God?"
    Gods love for man is not dependant on mans love for him. Read this line
    again.
    God loves man no matter what. God wont be sending anyone anywhere.
    YOu send yourself there...be refusing him...he cannot force you into
    heaven. SO he simply doesn't pick you up. He leaves you where you
    want to be..without him and he leaves you to it.
    Even if some of the purists vehemently claim God punishes you eternally,
    this doesn't make it what will happen. God will have absolutely nothing to
    do with those who don't want him. It's mans insane desire for revenge that
    leads to tales like this one.
    Your definition of perfect conflicts with mine, Websters and the rest of
    creation. Nothing I can do about that. Not my problem.

    IF you figure simply having the capability to effect error makes one
    imperfect...then please clarify what your imagination has to say about
    what is perfect.
    YOur assertions regarding evil and good are false logic to the max.
    IN my field of science, I require a reference to make measurements with
    equipment and mathematical computations. If something is two volts positive,
    I require the use of ground zero to measure it with. If something is
    negative, in order to know what negative is, I require again, the reference
    of zero. Your misled ideals of Good without evil cannot exist on this Earth.
    Without a measuring stick, a standard and a set of reasons, one cannot
    possibly determine what is Good if one doesn't know what is bad.
    If you were born in pain (by our standards now) and lived your whole life
    in a stasis of constant pain, no changes, no fluctuations, you would never
    feel it. Scientific study easily proves the bodies ability to adjust.
    (Adjustments require measuring sticks).

    Try it yourself sometime. Take a voltmeter to a wall socket. Leave one
    of the leads unhooked and free. Plug the other into the HOT side of the
    plug. WHat you measure is nothing. NO change. ANy change effected on the
    meter are a result of the stray AC field. Perhaps a few microvolts.
    If you lived on a 600,000 volt power line, you would'nt get shocked until
    you touched something at a different potential. Good without evil can
    only exist in one place. Heaven. Heaven contains no evil and never will.
    WHy? Because God put us here to make the choice between good and evil

    WHy couldn't we have just stayed and been born in heaven?
    If you can't figure that one out then you haven't been reading my posts.
    You need to read about it in the bible actually. It's more concise
    and gives a clearer image of the reasons.
    As far as your ineptness at logic and reason go, the height of supreme
    ignorance is to think you yourself could make a better world and have
    it work. Unless you were born yesterday, that's called utopia.
    Man has failed miserably countless numbers of times at it.
    Yet I read that you stand above all, even God and pass judgement on
    creation and him as unworthy of "meddling in the act of creation.."
    I think you were born yesterday.
    Do you have the answer to life , the universe and everything? Can you
    answer all questions, now, in the past and future? If you could
    do one millionth of all that, you'd be worth more than any 500 billion
    minds put together and would still fall into insignificance, less than
    the tinyest grain or flake of sand on the largest beach when compared
    to Gods wisdom. Yet he still loves us.
    What's funny is that you attempt to stand above him and pass judgement
    on him and all of his creation..including yourself.
    No, your logic is plainly and patently flawed and to assert otherwise
    ..especially to assert your ideas are better and pass judgement on what
    is...is the epitome of mans folly. Pride.
    No two men think alike. No two scientists have the right answer...
    so don't beg me to swallow Darwins horsepuckey either.

    Message: 61147
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Tom W.
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 18:53:00

    Re: ..."That is a fact."

    What is a fact to you, son? What defines a fact? Is a fact a whimsical
    conjecture of instant prattle or a culmination of evidence with
    a sprinkling of imagination?

    Obviously you're trying to be a puppet master pulling the strings
    on people to get a reaction. Do it enough and your puppets
    in life will come back to haunt you.

    Go belch lies about blacks down in south Phoenix. Or do you preferr
    the spinless comfort and chiken brained luxury of remaining
    irresponsible for your actions?

    Message: 61148
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Me
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 19:07:45

    I'm a ramblin', gamblin' man.

    Message: 61149
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Last?
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 20:27:44

            Explain James.....???

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61150
    Author: Thomas Hart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DCI '89
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 00:22:52

      So, did anyone watch the 1989 Drum Corps Int'l World Championships on
    PBS last Sunday?

    Message: 61151
    Author: Tom Weller  Note:  This is me***
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 00:34:18

    You accuse Darwin of being a poor scientist but at least he had an
    open mind.  He didn't go by a book, he wrote one.

    You talk about 'getting facts' but the only facts you have are from
    the most senseless and ambiguous book ever written.
    I think it was pointed out very well that those who totally deny God's
    existence will find themselves in hell.  And you say that God is
    incapable of and does not practice evil.  What?  Does He have a
    henchman take care of all the dirty business?

    You also state that to kill another person would be wrong, morally
    evil and quite in error.  I guess this doesn't include wars or being a
    part of the military whose sole doctrine is based upon turning its
    members into  efficient killing machine.
    Being a non-puppet, as you say, means that God cannot force anything
    upon you.  What about by threat of eternal damnation if something is
    not done?  You wouldn't call this force?  What do you call it, Mike?

    Message: 61152
    Author: Tom Weller  Note:  This is me ***
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Information
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:26:42

    In Phoenix there are many different faiths.  Here is a list for your
    information.  These are Headings only.

                  Apostolic, Assemblies of God, Baha'l, Baptist, Baptist
    American, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Baptist Conservative, Baptist Free
    Will, Baptist General, Baptist General Conference, Baptist
    Independent, Baptist Missionary, Baptist National Convention of
    America, Baptist National Convention USA Inc., Baptist Primitive,
    Baptist Southern, Bible, Bible Missionary, Church of the Brethren,
    Buddhist, Calvary Chapel, Catholic, Catholic Eastern, Catholic Roman,
    Catholic Ukrainian, Charismatic, Christian, Disciples of Christ,
    Christian Reformed, Christian Science, Church of Christ, Church of
    God, Church of God Anderson Indiana, Church of God Cleveland
    Tennessee, Church of God in Christ, Church of God of Prophesy, Church
    of God Oregon Illnois, Church of God Pentecostal, Church of Jesus
    Christ of Latter-day Saints, Church of the Brethren, Church of the
    Nazarene, Community Church, Congregational United Church of Christ,
    Divine Science, Eastern Orthodox, Eckankar, Episcopal, Episcopal
    American, Episcopal Reformed, Evangelical Covenant, Evangelical Free,
    Foursquare Gospel, Free Methodist, Friends, Full Gospel, Gospel,
    Holiness, Independent, Independent Fundamental, Independent
    Fundamental Churches of America, Interdenominational, Islamic,
    Jehovah's Witnesses, Jewish, Lutheran, Lutheran ELCA, Luthern
    Evangelical Synod, Luthern Wisconsin Evangelical Synod, Mennonite,
    Metaphysical, Methodist, Methodist African Episcopal, Methodist
    Christian Episcopal, Methodist Free, Methodist United, Metropolitan
    Community, Missionary, Mormon, Moslem, Nazarene, Non-Denominational,
    Orthodox Eastern, Pentecostal, Pentecostal Church of God, Pentecostal,
    Church of God of America Joplin Missouri, Pentecostal Holiness,
    Pentecostal United, Presbyterian, Presbyterian Reformed, Presbyterian
    USA, Quaker, Reformed in America, Religious Science, Reorganized
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Science of Mind, Seventh
    Day Adventist, Spiritualist, Unification, United Church of Christ,
    Unity, and Wesleyan.

    The above list represents 99 different beliefs.  I'd like to put one
    of each of the ministers into a room for a day.  They could talk until
    they were blue in the face but when they depart and go their separate
    ways, each will think they have the 'key to the kingdom'.

    This list is for Phoenix only.  If someone were to make a list of all
    the different religions in this country my buffer would not hold it.
    Then make a list of all of the religions of the world and one would
    need a hard drive to hold all the names.

    Message: 61154
    Author: Harold Darwin  This is me ***
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:28:39

    I believe there are two separate atheist organizations in this entire
    country.  They have the same doctrine.  Man evolved.  It would be
    difficult for an atheist to have a disagreement with another atheist on
    this matter. Unlike people who need religion, atheists and agnostics
    are not puppet material.  People who need books or persons to tell
    them how to think are having their strings pulled.

    Message: 61156
    Author: Paul Morgan
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T.
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:48:30

    True,those qualities are not unique to religion.  But religion certainly can
    be defined by those qualities -- when it manifests itself in the extreme
    form which Mike and others practice.
    For that matter, so can Dianetics, Spiritualism, etc., etc.

    Message: 61157
    Author: Paul Morgan
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:56:22

    If a computer was capable of making an error, no one would refer to it as
    perfect, whether or not it actually made any error. If God is capable of
    anything, as you say, then he is capable of creating beings with free-will
    who do not have the capacity for evil.  Either God is omnipotent, and can do
    ANYTHING as you say, or he is not.  Personally, I have doubts about the
    validity of the concept of omnipotency.  Can God create a rock too heavy for
    himself to lift?  Perhaps you begin to see some of the paradox involved in
    the concept of omnipotency.
    If a man has the capacity to be evil, then he is not all-good.  He may never
    actually DO any evil, but he is still morally flawed.  God must obey the
    same dictates of logic.

    It is not necessary to have evil to enjoy good.  I don't need to be killed
    in order to enjoy living.  I don't need to experience unpleasant odors in
    order to enjoy pleasant odors.  What you are implying, in fact, is that evil
    is a constituent of good, and therefore, evil is good in the sense that it
    allows the existence of good.  Surely, you see how inane this is?

    I think we have reached an impasse in our communication.  That is to say, I
    put forward valid, well reasoned arguments, and you ignore or twist them --
    anything, in fact, but reply to them.  So indulge yourself to the max in
    your next response; I probably won't reply.

    Message: 61158
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last chance
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 03:16:08

    (1) God created logic and therefore is not bound by it.
    (2) Without knowledge of death, life cannot be defined
    (3) Perfect: per.fect
        (a) To finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting.
        (b) Complete in all respects; without defect or omission; sound;
            flawless.
    Your pretense: Since God gave beings free will, he is therefore imperfect.

    My Pretense  : God created an uncontrollable being within a small box
                   under controlled conditions. This does'nt make God in any
                   way imperfect.
    (4) No, I have never implied evil is a consituent of good. You did.
    (5) To experience an odor, one must know the difference between what is
        and what isn't an odor..ergo..you cannot experience a nice odor
        without a basis to judge it on. Ever notice how a room or house smells
        different when youfirst walk in?...only to have the sensation fade
        away after a given period of time? Ergo...the measuring stick.

    True, we have reached an impasse. Your definitions of logic contradict
    known physics and physical laws (re-read volts-vs-ground).
    You fail to grasp the essence of what God is by attempting to force
    human values on him. Your evaluation criteria are too limited to go further
    into philosophy and hence your claims that I'm twisting things..you simply
    can't grasp them is all. God wont ignore you if you seek him in earnest.

    Message: 61159
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Harold Darwin
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 03:32:00

    "Man evolved". ......into what?
    On the basis of evolution..if man evolved...he must be evolving..evolution
    states that it is the process of adaptation. Adaptation is the limited
    response of an organism to a stimuli.
    Hence, if man evolved, why is he on the fastrack to destruction?
    "People who need books or persons to tell them how to think are
    having their strings pulled."
    My my. I suppose you WROTE the book on Darwinian theory and adaptive
    mutation. If the last 15 posts that contain Darwinian propoganda aren't
    the result of someone reading and swallowing his story hook line and sinker
    then we must have Darwin himself posting to this board.

    It's the folks who cling to material facts who are pulling their own
    strings... those who question religion and criticize are thinkers...
    those who question religion and criticize it and find God through it all
    are indeed the free of will, independant thinkers who know the truth
    and how to go about finding it...they're not the type to stop once
    confronted with the incomprehensible and gaffaw and turn their backs.

    That's why atheists and agnostics will find little to argue about on the
    topic of religion. They just pull each others strings to affirm the unknown
    and in their ignorance, turn away. The folks who have found God argue
    endlessly about interpretation..because each found God in their own
    personal way. Amusing at least. Throw away predjudice, search in honesty.

    Message: 61160
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:06:50

     For the past few days, we Apollo seems to have been plagued by a few dolts
    whose sole pleasure in life seems to be maligning that which they
    persistently refuse to understand.
     I have had the urge to jump in and climb aboard the debates, but you have
    been doing sich an excellent job of presenting the case for Christianity, I
    think I'll just sit back and enjoy. God bless you and yours, Mike. Keep the
    faith.

    Message: 61161
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on taxes
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:42:05

    Actually, it's our accountant's fault - he told us what we owed and we sent
    it. Unfortunately, the IRS did not give any details. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61162
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:50:31

    You don't believe in Evolution or that mankind is evolving? Just curious.

    I too am enjoying you posts. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61163
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT/Rambling/Gambling
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:51:30

    So - does that mean you've been to Atlantic City? Please elaborate.
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61164
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Tom Weller
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 08:36:18

            I don't see 99 different beliefs....  But I do see ONE "God" in that
    list.  Some do pray a little different, but having free will lets us do
    that.  However, from your talks with Mike Carter, I can see that is way over
    your head.
            Speaking of the number 99....  How many names are you going to log
    in under?  Yes, I see....   But you are the SAME person anyway...right?
    So why can't Christians have many names?  I'm Episcopal by the way.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61165
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul Morgan
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 08:50:55

            You are right there, you need not be killed to enjoy living.  But,
    the threat of death is there, and you KNOW it... so you don't stand in the
    middle of Bell Road during rush hour...  Do you?
            You also don't need to kill a person to feel the evil... you do know
    that is there as well...
            If man was created just to be good and never to be evil...  he would
    not have the full spectrum of experiences to choose from.  He would NOT have
    true FREE WILL.  His strings would really be pulled then.
            I'm afraid you have things backwards.   I have found Mike Carters
    posts to be full of facts that are easily understandable.  Yours on the
    other hand, contradict your oun posts, and show a logic that is flawed.
    I did have a good laugh reading them however...  You sound a lot like Rod
    Williams.  (another funny guy?)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61166
    Author: Bill Zebub
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 15:17:32

    Simon says, SNIFF!!

    Message: 61168
    Author: Bill Zebub
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: KUPD this AM
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 15:39:36

    KUPD planned to assemble 30 guys at Porky's (2 blocks north of Camelback at
    43rd ave.), wearing nothing but red underwear, and forming a human La-Bomba
    chain, which would then move along Camelback.    This sounded like just the
    sort of lame gag I might enjoy, so I hastened over there, prepared to march
    down the street in nothing but red underwear (and possibly shoes).  They had
    already given out all the pairs, but it hardly mattered.  With one
    exception, everyone was wearing all their clothes, with the underwear on the
    outside of their pants.  Even the exception was wearing a T-shirt, and red
    bikini style briefs -- not the lacy Fredrick's style thing that KUPD had
    given out.  All they did was march them two blocks and bring them back
    again.  The whole thing was billed as though it were some sort of wild,
    kick-ass adventure, but it was in fact pitiful.  Most disappointing.
    There also looked to be considerably less than the "thirty" people the DJs
    claimed.

    Message: 61169
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: J.T.
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:09:07

    Re:  "I'm a ramblin', gamblin' man."

    Did you win the lottery or something?

    Message: 61170
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Darwin
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:11:54

    Re:  "He didn't go by a book, he wrote one."

    That's interesting.  If everyone didn't go by anyone else's book, but
    wrote their own, what an interesting world this would be.  Interesting
    probably is the *wrong* word here.

    Message: 61171
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tom W
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:15:12

    Re:  "In Phoenix there are many different faiths."

    It would seem from your list that most of the different names are Christian
    faiths.  There is a reason for various church buildings being called by
    different names.  It would be quite confusing if all Christian churches had
    the same name.

    Message: 61172
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Darwin
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:19:42

    Re:  "Unlike people who need religion, atheists and agnostics are not puppet
    material."

    First of all, I thought you were dead.  Maybe it is one of your ancestors
    I'm thinking about.  You know that the real Darwin thought Cheeta was one of
    his ancestors.  Hmmmm?

    Anyway, atheists only use their belief as a crutch.

    Message: 61173
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul M.
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:24:01

    Re:  "when it manifests itself in the extreme form which Mike and others
    practice."

    Well, I'm sure that Mike and I do have some differences, but I also think we
    agree on a whole lot more.  But, I don't find those negative qualities you
    listed in my church.  To be sure, my church isn't perfect, but whose is?
    And I'm sure that Mike would say the same about his church.

    What point are you trying to make?

    Message: 61174
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:27:16

    Re:  "You sound a lot like Rod Williams.  (another funny guy?)"

    Speaking of our resident atheist, where is he anyway?

    Message: 61175
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:50:24

    OK, I'll tell my tale, if you'll give a listen.  I was born lonely, down by
    the riverside.  I learned to spin fortune-wheels and throw dice.  I was only
    13 when I had to leave home; I knew I couldn't stick around, but had to
    roam.

    Message: 61176
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Addendum
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 19:34:25

    WHen ADam and EVe lived in the Garden of Eden, they knew nothing of
    our references of what we call "Good" and "Evil". All there was
    was God and life on Earth. They had no other needs...did not age
    they were a flawless creation. The Flaw as it were, was the act of
    temptation from Satan who tempted them to eat of the fruit of knowledge.
    The temptation was "To be like God"...only Satan left out the rest.
    The Sin..the act of disobedience, was generated by the free will of
    Adam when he took a bit of the "apple". Adam then became aware and found
    that he was naked and was ashamed. God created a situation of perfect
    harmony and free will...the price of which was mans downfall from grace
    due to Satan tempting Eve. Satan himself was close to God, then cast
    out of grace and heaven for sinning against God..trying to lead a rebellion
    of sorts. IN human terms.
    Those who claim God created sin miss the point. It isn't the means which
    is sinfull, it's the act. A chunk of wwod isn't evil until it's used
    in a sinfull manner..like bashing someone's head in.
    Yet the agnostic view doesn't seem to understand this. MOst liberals
    don't either..like gun control for instance. Fear of the gun itself
    commiting the crime. If it wasn't guns it'd be bow-n-arrows. ALl the
    way back to stones. WHere do you draw the line? DO you say an object
    of creation is flawed because it can be utilized in evil ways or
    do you say the *ACT* of utilization in an evil manner is the cause
    for sin?

    SO far, of all the opposing viewpoints have underlined a commmon
    "paradox". That is...if God created man, a being capable of
    innacuracies and evil..then God himself cannot be perfect.
    This is not true both logically and physically. Besides the issue
    of Gods existence, Logic has many forms and is a spin-off of
    rational thinking. There is no complete, perfect and undenyable logic.
    Logic rests upon convention and perceptions. That which we cannot perceive
    but exists (radio waves..as a quick one) exist, but before we found a way
    to discover them and apply measurement, no logic could define its
    undenyable existence. As humans, we grow in many ways. One of them being
    in knowledge. WHat we know comprises of beliefs and interpretations.
    From a purist viewpoint, each man and woman have their own set.
    Therefore..what is really truth if it differs so greatly amoung men?
    From our little standpoint in space, we have comparatively miniscule
    knowledge of what goes on about us..albeit what makes everything tick.
    To blindly deny and refute is to remain ignorant.
    How silly and pompous of us to declare something doesn't exist without
    continually searching to prove instead of searching for reasons to deny.
    WHat little time we live here gives us poor chances of learning more
    than a few grains. Combined efforts work well. But we should see by now
    how little we still know..and how much we can learn by searching.

    No, man isn't evolving..he's becomming complacent.

    To fully return to the "paradox". Gods creations instituted sin.
    The sin itself isnt a creation but act(s) and inact(s)/tion(s).
    God wanted man to love him. Again, differences of ideology on
    free will aside, Love cannot be given without out it.
    Write a program on a computer that says at regular intervals;
    "I love you". It's worthless to you. It's just doing what you tell it to do.
    AHh, but when your wife walks to you unexpectedly and wraps her arms
    around you and says; "I love you"...now thats special.
    Being omnipotent allows God to do anything, if God elected to be evil,
    he would cease to be God. Much like if you elect to kill yourself.
    We can try and always fail to understand using human interpretation on
    what God must be and what he can/cannot do. Like trying to put a
    measuring stick on God. It's like trying to put a measuring stick on
    infinity. How many sticks will fit into infinity?
    Mans attempts at defining God quantitively are miserable exercises
    in futility. God encompasses everything. The philosophy of defining
    the whole from the part becomes exponentially in error the smaller
    the part and the larger the whole. We can't even find a cure for the
    common cold...yet we rely upon conjecture to refute the existance
    of the Creator.
    Amazing..and to think I relied soley upon this before I finally decided
    to find out for myself if God existed or not. Glad I have my own
    mind..and the free will to decide to open the doors to the much feared
    unknown.

    Message: 61179
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Savage
    Date: 09/22/89  Time: 22:52:05

    It seems to me that there has just been one big Dolt posting on religion in
    the past few days, and that is this Mike Carter guy.

    Message: 61180
    Author: Joseph Campbell  Note:  This is me ***
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: You guys
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:22:21

     The list of Chruch Headings that were posted only met with, "well they
    all have the same God".  Very doubtful.

     Your statement would have some credence if Christians had never been seen
    or heard going at each others throats over their taught doctrine.  Having
    myself, on many an occasion over the years, heard conversations from
    followers of many different sects holding diverse beliefs, belittling all
    other faiths as followers of Satan or lost sheep.

     I have, to this day, never heard an agnostic or atheist argue over
    doctrine.  I don't believe they can.  They are, in all reality, the
    freethinkers of this world.

     The Christian is straddled, not only with economic strings but also with
    fear of a superpower who man punish him.  Somehow this reminds me, for some
    odd reason, of Simon Says or Hypnotic Suggestion.  Allow me to explain.  A
    group of 115 people are sitting in a room.  The Speaker says, "Jesus is the
    only way to salvation".  Peer pressure starts working on the group.
    Eighty-five to Ninety percent of the people will accept his words while the
    remainder will question the statement.  The speaker quickly recognizes those
    who agree with his words and knows that he can use them.  He pulls their
    strings as he sees fit.  Since he has the majority on his side the others
    are dismissed.  They make poor material for what he has in mind.

    Message: 61181
    Author: Joseph Campbell
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Yes, you!
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:23:03

     Each person is good for at least 10 percent of their wages.  (If the
    average income of 100 people is $20,000 (modest) per person per year then
    $2,000 could be expected from each person on a yearly basis.  $200,000 is
    enough to support a nice lifestyle while maintaining the front.)  The
    speaker need only carry around a Bible and make such statements as, "Unless
    you believe in the son, Jesus, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven".  The
    sheep who bites the hardest are made into Deacons or given other responsible
    posts.  The few who raise a question from time to time are kept in the outer
    circle as they have a glimmer of doubt remaining.

     People group together out of fear in order to bolster each others
    beliefs.  They are taught to look at other sects, especially those with
    funny sounding names, as being lost.  After all, what speaker is willing to
    give up $2,000?  And if you lose one of your sheep, more may follow.  You
    must make your followers believe that you have the true and the best way to
    the kingdom.  Also, planned social events help keep the people content.
    Foreign missionaries are a good way to show that a large cash flow is
    needed.  People will usually dig deep into their purse or allow a mortgage
    to be put on their home in the name of converting a heathen halfway around
    the world.

    Message: 61182
    Author: Mary Campbell  This is me ***
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: You mean me?
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:24:17

     The fear of death is the biggest cause of converts to a group seeking
    answers to the unanswerable.  This is human nature.  Anyway, all the speaker
    is doing is playing Simon Says and giving his sheep Hypnotic Suggestion in
    order to maintain his lifestyle and to simply survive.  Just like the rest
    of us.

     At best it is a business, at worst a cheap con.  The reason for the
    existence of such a large, successful market, is because of the great
    demand, just like in drugs.  As long as the demand exists so will religion
    and so will drugs or anything else that the majority wants or needs.

    More simply put, "As long as fear exists so will ways of alleviating it
    and there are but many." - Martha and the Vandellas, 1969-1969

    Message: 61183
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 02:50:51

    Re:  "there has just been one big Dolt posting on religion"

    When all your logic fails and falls apart, you could resort to name calling.

    Message: 61184
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Campbell
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 02:57:12

    Re:  "well they all have the same God"

    The word was "most", not all.

    Your statement would have some credence if Atheists had never been seen
    or heard going at each others throats over their taught doctrine.

    I have, to this day, never heard a Christian argue over doctrine.  I don't
    believe they can.  They are, in all reality, the freethinkers of this world.

    You see, I can tell "whoppers" too.

    Message: 61185
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Campbell
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:01:03

    Re:  "People will usually dig deep into their purse or allow a mortgage to
    be put on their home in the name of converting a heathen halfway around the
    world."

    More than the heathen halfway around the world, I am concerned about the
    ones here in the US.  The ones who have heard the truth but reject it.

    Message: 61186
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mary C.
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:05:53

    Re:  More simply put, "As long as fear exists so will ways of alleviating it
    and there are but many."

    Are you speaking for or against atheism?

    You sound like maybe like Joe's wife, sister, or mother?

    Message: 61187
    Author: Ron Harper
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Black Rain
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:46:48

    Well, it was decent.  Kind of vague, I know, but I'm not particularly
    voluble tonight.  I will make a few observations:

    Quite a number of "Japanese" buildings looked suspiciously similar to
    something from a Blade Runner set.  I put Japanese in quotes because, first,
    I have never been to Japan nor am I familiar with its modern architectural
    forms and trends, especially in factory settings, and two, I am not sure
    which parts were actual buildings and which were mere set fronts.

    Everything seemed awfully smoggy, or was that foggy?  Well, same question;
    real pollution, fog machines, or some combination?

    The driving range scene was funny.  Actual golf courses are rare in Japan,
    and getting access to one (at a country club, of course) costs upwards of a
    million dollars or more.  The background of applicants is scrutinised.  Most
    Japanese, therefore, settle for multi-tiered driving ranges like the one in
    the film.  They tend to take them quite seriously.

    Overall, the film impressed me as surrealistic in tone.  It is hard to
    decide, however, how much of this was inherent in the film, and how much was
    due to the relatively sleep deprived state in which I viewed the film.

    Message: 61188
    Author: Ron Harper
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:47:26

    Snarf!!

    Message: 61189
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last two
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 05:29:11

    Was that deprived or depraved?

    Message: 61190
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: B. Dog
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 06:10:18

     It is, of course, your privelege to think what you will about anyone, just
    as it is mine.
     Personally, I think that Mike has said more, and made more sense in his
    posts on the subject than all those who are too insecure to even use their
    real names have said in all of their collective ramblings.
     I have purposely stayed out of the discussion, for two reasons. First, most
    of the users are well aware of my position re: Christianity and the Bible as
    the WOrd of God. Secondly, Mike has said everything I would have said, and
    has a way of saying it much better than I could, and redundancy rarely does
    any good.
     If all you have to turn to in time of trouble is yourself, you are indeed
    among the poorest of men. If you think that you have human friends who will
    sand by you through thick and thin, you are quite naive. Best of luck.
    You'll need it. My Bible says that HE (God) is an ever present help in time
    of trouble. He has proven it to me, time and time again throughout my
    lifetime.
    Tell you what. You take Darwin, (he's dead) and I'll take God, who's alive
    and well and coming again. Let's meet again in 1000 years and see how we're
    doing. OK?

    Message: 61191
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Just for Mike Carter
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 06:23:21

    "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of
    the flesh.
     For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
    and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things
    that ye would.
     But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
     Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
    fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred,
    variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings,
    murderers, drunkeness, revelings and such like: of the which I tell you
    before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things
    shall not inherit the kingdom of GOd.
     But the fruit of the SPirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
    goodness, faith. meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
     And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and
    lusts.
     If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
    Galatians 5:16-25. God bless you.

    Message: 61192
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religious discussion
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 08:16:26

    Shut up already!

    Message: 61193
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Campbell/Superpower
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 09:19:57

            I fear no superpower...  where do you get that crap?   The only one
    in fear around here appears to be YOU!

            Just how many names are you going to use, before you settle down to
    one?  It is hard to get a grip on who we are talking to.   I guess if I were
    arguing your view point on God and Christianity, I would be ashamed to use
    my real name as well.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S. Your view of Christians from where ever you are looking, is VERY
    distorted.

    Message: 61194
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: James Taranto
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 09:31:02

            Hey, while we are at it James (On Religion), Just what are your
    beliefs?  Are you a Christian?  Are you an Agnostic?  Are you an Atheist?

            Don't be afraid to answer.....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61195
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 10:07:06

    Your discription of Adam & Eve in the Garden is a good one. I have a
    question - you said "Adam then because aware and found the he was naked &
    was ashamed"! ---- If God made them perfect - they were naked, - why all of
    a sudden did he have somehing to be ashamed about? What makes nakedness a
    sin, especially if Eve was the only one to see him and she was naked too?
    I understand that all of a sudden they knew the difference between good and
    evil - but don't understand why something like not having any clothes on is
    a great sin. We're born that way as God intended right? Adam & Eve were
    perfect without any clothes on, etc. Sounds to me like one of those things
    man put in the Bible, not God because he didn't want other men looking upon
    his woman! Don't you personally question any of this stuff you read there
    in? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61196
    Author: Matt Clark
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/names
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 11:20:59

    I'm not Campbell, articulate and intelligent though he may be.  You have at
    least two people here using multiple pseudonyms.  As I told Mike Carter, the
    subject of religion, for time time being, has become jejune as far as I am
    concerned.

    Message: 61197
    Author: Matt Clark
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 11:23:05

    Unfortunately, it was deprived.

    Message: 61198
    Author: $ Robert Knee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Religion
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 13:54:12

    I believed this religious argument was resolved some time ago.  Let us turn
    to more edifying subjects.

    Message: 61199
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 14:50:20

    For the purposes of this discussion, I am a deist.

    Message: 61200
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Psuedonyms
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 15:38:13

    The whole problem can be solved if everyone logs in under a different name
    every time.  90% of the regular posters on Apollo do it anyway.  People
    having two $tatus accounts, $tatus users not even using their passwords.
    It's a wild wild wild world.

    Message: 61201
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob & Paul
    Date: 09/23/89  Time: 19:47:05

    Don't forget, it was not I who first used 'dolt' in reference to a
    participant in the religion discussion.  Also, Bob, I have *not* been a part
    of it, so it would be hard for me to 'resort' to name calling.

    Praise "Bob" !

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