### Apollo BBS Archive - April 26, 1990

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    Message: 6289
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 6282
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 04:01:58

    The arrangement of energy in the universe is not predictable.  The
    arrangement of the Earth's weather system is not even predictable, beyond
    the very short term.  Furthermore, this inherent tendency to decay which you
    attribute to inorganic matter does not exist.  The inherent tendency is that
    of change. Though this change may be the result of an entropic tendency in
    closed systems to reach a state of equilibrium, such a decay, while the
    system is in a far from equilibrium state, is responsible for all of the
    creative forms you see around you.  Or is it your contention that birth,
    growth, and the development of physical systems, is the result of divine
    intervention?

    Message: 6290
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/mistakes
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 04:03:08

    Yes, science admits mistakes.  Religion does not.  Which would you find more
    plausible?

    Message: 6291
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Debate / dispute
    Subject: stuff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 04:04:33

    Pasteur did not prove that spontaneous generation of life is impossible.
    Such a general proof is itself impossible.  Pasteur proved that the
    evolved micro-organisms which had developed on Earth up until his time
    were not generated from inorganic matter.  He may have *contended* that
    every generation of "life" had to be derived from a previous generation,
    but anyone can contend anything they like; perhaps you would care to
    describe the general proof for such a contention?
    There are in many men two conflicting impulses: one urging them toward
    science and the other toward mysticism.  Though such views are
    irreconcilable, they are both commonly held at the same time by the same
    man.  Mysticism, in spite (or because) of its appeal to intuition or
    revelation, often fascinates men of the finest intellect, who are lured
    into it by an unwarranted extension of some indubitable scientific fact.
    Pythagoras, Newton, and Einstein are excellent examples.  So is Pasteur.
    True, DNA is incredibly complex and it stretches credulity to suppose that
    it autopoietically appeared from an inorganic "soup."  Of course, you are
    arguing against a straw man, since no one has asserted that this is the
    case.  Now, pardon me for not taking every utterance of the great Fred
    Hoyle as fact, but when Hoyle says he has calculated the odds of biopoiesis,
    I'd like to know exactly how he determined that.  Quite frankly, it doesn't
    sound like he knows what he's talking about, if that is indeed what he said,
    because at the level we are discussing -- far, far below the level of DNA;
    the borderline between life and non-life in fact -- no one has been able
    thus far to precisely define the delineation between the two.

    Message: 6292
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Debate / dispute
    Subject: more stuff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 04:05:07

    Furthermore, a non-random distribution of energy does not indicate that such
    a distribution is the result of supernatural intervention.  A hurricane is
    certainly a non-random distribution of energy, but few would argue that it
    has a supernatural origin, despite the fact that they spontaneously appear
    in a universe in which the 2nd law of thermodynamics is presumed to be true.
    Also, your argument against evolution on the basis of the lack of
    transitional fossils (which gradualists would hardly concede), is specious:
    you are confusing evolution with neo-Darwinist mechanisms of evolution.
    Evolution itself is firmly established; the various theories attempting to
    explain its mechanisms (gradualism, saltation, and punctuated equilibrium,
    for example) are not.  There is considerable argument among evolutionists
    as to the nature of evolutionary mechanisms, and it may please you to learn
    that eminent biologists such as Stephen Jay Gould disagree with the neo-
    Darwinist view that the gradual accumulation of mutations and genetic
    variation is the mechanism behind the appearance of new species (though it
    certainly has a huge role in determining adaptation and survival within a
    species).

    Message: 6293
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 05:44:35

     After reading your last several messages on the creation/evolution
    merry-go-round, and noticing the absolute lack of your usual misspelling and
    unique phraseology, am I to presume that you have hired a writer?
     I agree with your position as stated, but those posts just don't sound like
    the Cliff we have come to know and love.
    Comeon Cliff! Fess up! Who is writing your stuff?

    Message: 6294
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: sysop/self-org
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 07:53:02

    Chaos theory has begun to shed light on self-organizing systems. It seems
    that the nature of the universe we live in leads to chaotic behavior which
    leads to self-organizing systems. The richness of variation allows systems
    of molecules to form complex behavior. Those complex behaviors which are
    "stable" stick around, those which aren't don't.

    Message: 6295
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: cliff/rebuttal
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 07:58:02

    What about Archaeopteryx ? I think I have disproven your claim that there
    are no transitional forms. Are you going to ignore hard evidence in favor
    of your delusion ?

    Message: 6296
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Believe it or not!
    Subject: archaeopteryx
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 07:59:08

    What about Archaeopteryx Cliff ?

    Message: 6297
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: daryl/accounts
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 08:00:00

    shouldn't those accounts agree ?

    Message: 6298
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 10:32:33

    I cry 'unfair'! You are being unfair to Roger when you said that from now on
    you want him to refer to 'Evolution Drivel'! Evloution is NOT drivel at all.
    Also you stated that he was reading from 'The Origin of Species" published
    in 1859! And here you are, quoting from a book that's a couple thousand
    years old - that contradicts itself over and over - is almost mystical in
    content and you tell him he's being wrong quoting from a book no more than
    150 years old?? I don't get it. Be fair. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6299
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff on birds
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 10:34:53

    I might be wrong, but I do not think "Many of those lizards were from the
    bird family"!! as you stated - the birds evolved from the lizards.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6300
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul on writing....
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 11:20:01

            I am creating most stuff off line and running my spelling checker
    though it.  I also am referencing the books I listed, to get the facts
    stated correctly, such as the correct law of Thermodynamics and the true
    fossil record acceptable by real paleoanthropologists.  I assure you that
    Sandy is not even helping in any way.  The posts are by me Paul... when I am
    serious to take the time and use spelling checkers......
            Maybe I should just spout off the top of my head...hu?

                                    clif-

    Message: 6301
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: Transitional fossils
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 11:28:40

            I stated "Transitional fossils have NOT been found."  What
    scientific investigation indicates is that the species are immutable and
    that when mutations occur they do not become new species.
            You have shown me no evidence otherwise.....  Sorry Roger, the
    delusion is yours.

                            clif-

    Message: 6302
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann?
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 11:35:36

            Where have I quoted from a book that is a couple of thousand years
    old?  I am using new and up-to-date books.  And Evolution is drivel!
    Are you a Monkey Ann?   Or are you a Human?  Come to think of it, you may be
    the missing link!

                                            clif-

    Message: 6303
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: real paleo...
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 13:06:55

    Please define what real means. I suspect that it is not any definition
    a paleontologist would be familiar with. In fact, wouldn't you say that
    a "real" paleontologist would be one who has a degree (preferably a PhD)
    is respected by his or her peers, has published and is a recognized expert
    in the field. Or is a "real" paleontologist one who agrees with your views ?

    Message: 6304
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: Transitional fossil
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 13:10:06

    Excuse me. Species are not immutable, and there is plenty of evidence to
    support that view. Secondly, I have given you an example of what the
    scientific community considers to be a transitional fossil. If the delusion
    is mine, then the scientific community is deluded. I would suspect that
    based upon your point of view, that you will not accept the authority of
    "real" paleontologists. However, let's continue. What do you think a
    transitional fossil is ?

    Message: 6305
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Real paleo...
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 16:31:21

            I ment PhD....  as opposed to an Arm Chair paleontologist.
    Since you just wish to criticize my use of words and won't answer my
    questions as to What Brand of Christianity you so boldly think I am, I will
    step down from this interesting debate.  Also the fact it takes me about an
    hour per post to get the info together, and I just don't have the time.
    It was FUN for a few days...

    Message: 6306
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Believe it or not!
    Subject: defender/evolution
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 17:45:04

            Here is something from someone who was a defender of evolution.

    Dr. Stephen Jay Gould, a passionate defender of evolution, has written:
    "The fossil record with its abrupt transistions offers NO support for
    gradual change."  Followed by: Scientists are now convinced that life could
    not have originated as Darwin believed, but are now theorizing that life, in
    a variety of forms, was sent to earth from outer space by some form of
    intelligence.

            The above written in verbatim by people who were against the idea of
    creation.  Scientists admitting they were wrong, because the evidence for
    evolution is just not there.

            I'm outa here.... let someone else carry the torch.  I have nothing
    to prove, but I do feel better and my belief is stronger.  Besides, Poor Mr.
    Savage wants me to go back to simpler posting.

            Ya know, I didn't get anything done on my machine shop job in the
    past two days....  I gotta turn and burn to catch up.

                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*   poof!

    Message: 6307
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last twenty
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 18:30:04

    Roger Mann gives me the impression that he hates to be contradicted
    and dislikes being disproved. In fact, he's guilty of the same
    crimes he accused me of...being highly defensive toward my beliefs.
    I'm comfortable and quite convinced of my beliefs truth. Truth is that
    which, through all the darkeness, doubts and misleading years, remains
    true and proves itself out over and over again. Truth is trult transitional
    through topics, a truth is that which applies to everything it encompasses
    and often, more than meets the casuall observance.
    Roger, you should accept that there are numerous good arguments for each
    side. The burden of proof is on the individual, not on God. Your previous
    posts show some ignorance of even the slightest conceptualization of
    thermodynamics. Mark Adkins wants us to believe that weather is
    unpredicatable in totality..ignoring the fact that since recorded history
    man has been able to predict 4 seasons of weather...which haven't changed
    one ioata as to their nature. Granted, when it rains or when it shines
    is something seemingly as random as the patterns found in a snowflake...
    which doesn't contradict the thermodynamic law either. Someone who is
    incapable of accepting a fact might think so, or who has a bent towards
    NOT WANTING to accept the facts perhaps...but a *true* scientist will
    put away these emotional hang-ups and pith high-school tirades and
    exammine the facts as presented.
    We don't need to get childishly sophistoric about this either, simple
    and pure, you can beleive what you want to...you have already proven that
    you cannot accept another's facts as facts.

    Message: 6308
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Fairness / Ann
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 18:35:37

    You imagine Cliff is being "Unfair" just because he disputes the drivels
    of some pedantic sea-going dead brain called Darwin?
    When you stand up like you did, scream UNFAIR, when Rod starts in with
    adjectives like "Stupid, Nonsense, Drivel, Crap" etc when referring
    to religion or people who are religious or have religious beliefs,
    I'll believe your motives are FAIR and JUST in themselves.
    But since the only time you cry "UNFAIR" is when someone tromps on your
    religion, that's just TOUGH $#!+.
    Darwin's **THEORY** is wishfull thinking by someone who wanted to
    discredit creationsim in a bad way.....
    If you were at all interested in being a part of a discussion, instead of
    blathering about what is fair and what isn't, get in with some
    intelligent discussion.

    Message: 6309
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: My Beliefs
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 18:48:08

    Unlike Roger, I don't feed on anyone's line...rely upon someone else's
    work or words, rest upon a muted group theory, I **KNOW** God is real,
    he's alive and lives!
    I can look out my window, day or night, and fathom in his works and rest
    know{_ledge and build it upon his works that I can see as far as my eyes
    will permit. I can see intent, design and perfection in the living
    things around me. I don't recall ever hearing about a dog making
    a 386 computer, I don't ever hear of a Monkey designing the floor plan
    to a new cage...I don't see birds painting signs in bird language,
    I don't see Elephants going to bed with Skunks. What I do see is
    some government funds-hungry theorists fantasizing about what we would
    get if they put fossil (A) with Fossil (D) and create in their minds
    what fossil (B & C) look like. Then, some certifiably brain-dammaged idiots
    eat this stuff like cambells soup and call it FACTUAL. Only now, they're
    starting to realize and disprove that kind of historical editing.
    BUt that's O.k, all I'll be able to convince *you* of is that I don't
    swallow it for one moment. Mutations occur, but have never occurred to
    an extent that man would form from an ape, Buffalo would form from
    dolphins and chocolate pudding would form from dinosaur s#!+.
    It's real funny to watch folks ignore serious attempts with fruit flies
    and mutation failures and continue to spout off that it works.
    Thanks but no thanks. WHen and if the day comes you find God, you'll know
    what I mean when I say; Keep it, I like mine better!

    Message: 6310
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Believe it or not!
    Subject: Ann on lizard
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 19:09:12

            They thought they had found a transitional form with a lizard
    turning into a bird.  But after careful research they found that what they
    had thought was a lizard was indeed a bird animal all along.  An
    understandable error since this was many million years ago, but no less an
    error. Some of the clues came when they found tracks, but could not see
    where the tail had dragged since lizards drag tails.  Birds hold thier tails
    high, as not to touch the grownd. Lizards are cold blooded, birds are warm
    blooded.

            I put this as simple as I could, but I am not kidding you at all.

                                    clif-

    P.S. Skipper said, "Ann is cold blooded for selling Randy!"   take that!

    Message: 6311
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Rebuttal
    Subject: CLIFF
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 19:26:54

      Daryl said that the universe was regular and predictable, meaning that
    there had to be a God or it would be otherwise. You said that the universe
    is unpredictable in that new species are suddenly created, which proves that
    there is a God or it would be otherwise. I just thought the contradiction
    was interesting.
      It is a matter of chance when a creature becomes a fossil. If none of the
    existing fossils had been created, but a completely different set of
    intermediate forms had been fossilized instead, you would still be saying
    that the fossil record disproved evolution because it was not complete.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 6312
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean?
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 20:18:38

            The contradiction seems to be your confusion.  There is order to the
    universe created by laws of nature (God?)...

            Since life could not come up from nothing. Re:the second law of
    Thermodynamics, etc., God then CREATED life, as spontaneous generation is
    impossible even with such primitive forms as viruses.

    As for "slow evolution," not even the evolutionists believe in that anymore.
    They now believe in "punctuated equilibrium" in order to explain the sudden
    appearance of species without ancestors.

                                            clif-

    Message: 6313
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: 6301
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 21:04:12

    What evidence indicates that species are *immutable*?  Certainly nothing so
    far posted.  The fact that fruit flies have been exposed to mutagens
     and, while they have experience horrendous mutations, have not
    developed into a new species, is an interesting fact, and may say something
    about evolutionary mechanisms, but it is quite a stretch to conclude from
    this that species are immutable.  The sort of mutations which would justify
    the classification of a new species may not be amenable to such crude
    and isolated exposures.

    Message: 6314
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gould
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 21:11:10

    First, he IS a passionate defender of evolution.  Your use of the past tense
    implied that he has rejected evolution.  He has merely rejected gradualism,
    and his view, which may or may not be correct, is only one of several
    currently being debated by professionals within the field.
    Second, that bit about scientists theorizing that life was sent to Earth
    from outer space by intelligent beings is NOT a quote from Gould.  In fact,
    I don't know of any professional with a reputation among his peers who would
    label such an outlandish speculation as scientific theory.

    Third, I sympathize with you regarding the time to rebutt all the attacks
    against your position.  It can get to be a pain in the ass when you have to
    constantly formulate replies against a number of opponents, against whom you
    are outnumbered.

    Message: 6315
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 21:13:35

    Well, I have become used to your bombastic babbling, and there are no points
    which need addressing, other than, perhaps, your remark about weather.
    My remark was "The arrangement of Earth's weather system is not predictable
    beyond the very short term," not "there is no aspect of the weather which is
    predictable," as you implied.

    Message: 6316
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 21:26:10

    All organisms, and indeed, all non-organic systems, must derive energy from
    some source outside of themselves.  What is so mysterious about eating?
    Also, I think you are trying to attritute some grand plan to nature in your
    speculations regarding the will to live (although most life has no *will* or
    indeed any awareness).  Nature is not a grey-bearded stranger flying through
    the thunderclouds and wielding lightning bolts, and it is a mistake to
    impose anthropomorphic motives on a non-sentient system.

    Message: 6317
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gould
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:00:34

            From the article I read, it made it sound like he was no longer so
    sure about evolution....   As for the second part, it followed what he
    quoted, but it was not enclosed in quotes, so therefor you are correct,
    (you're so smart) it was by the writer of the article who was not Gould.

            But to the part in quotes, it is referenced to Natural History,
    June-July 1977, pp22-30

                    I hope that helps.....

                                            clif-

    Message: 6318
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Beck
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:19:23

            It is you who is out numbered.  Just that most of them have given up
    on trying to explain to you hateful atheists facts that you can't seem to
    comprehend.  You are so defensive of Darwinism even when proof shows it is a
    snowjob.

            I was trying to answer questions, not convert you or anyone.  All I
    get is insults with foolish theory, that you expect me to swallow.  It takes
    me longer because I will admit, I don't have the command of the English
    language like you or Roger....  I have to find and look up everything from
    spelling to names and dates.  I watch you guys rattle off a response in a
    few seconds... makes me jealous to say the least.

            It is obvious you don't care to hear my thoughts or ideas and in the
    sources I have gathered them from...   You would rather slam my grammar and
    use of words to make me feel bad.
                            So stick it!

    Message: 6319
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:51:52

      The contradiction I was talking about was between one post of yours and
    one post of Daryl's supporting the same conclusion with opposite reasoning.
    I do not accept the idea that species appear without ancestors, and this
    would require postive evidence, rather than a lack of evidence to the
    contrary.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 6320
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: DEAN?????
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 23:31:35

            Your last statment is silly... Re: "I don't accept the idea that
    species appear without ancestors"  PLEASE tell me then how the FIRST species
    came about?  Now this one has me laughing!

            What came first?  The chicken or the egg?

    Message: 6321
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/hee-hee-hee
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:31:43

    Oooooh...I'm SUCH a hateful atheist.

    Actually, I not only enjoy hearing your point of view, but have learned from
    it during this discussion.  One gets the best criticisms of a theory from
    those who oppose it, not those who seek to prove it.  Pardon me if I say
    that a lot of your arguments are...weak.  But some of them (particularly
    your statements regarding fossil records and mutation) are challenging,
    interesting, and as I said, sometimes even educational.

    Message: 6322
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Debate / dispute
    Subject: fossil records
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:33:02

    I am NOT at all well read on this subject.  Nevertheless, from what little
    I have available to me, I can see that there exists fossil evidence which
    provides a well defined record of the evolution of species.  Apparently,
    one of the best known examples is the horse.  The fossil record of horses
    is a closely graded series of fossils starting nearly 60,000,000 years ago
    with the four-toed Hyracotherium (or eohippus), less than a foot high at the
    shoulder and having low crowned teeth adapted to browsing on tender leaves
    and shoots, which proceeds by moderate steps to the modern horse, Equus,
    which can stand five feet tall at the shoulder, has a single toe, and high
    crowned teeth adapted to grazing on hard, gritty grasses.  The evidence of
    direct relationship is clear.  (The horse phylogeny also includes several
    lines of descent that became extinct; phylogeny being the history of the
    evolution of a species or group.)
    What do you have to say regarding comparative embryology?  The embryos of
    all vertebrates develope a typical, fishlike set of gill pouches, only to
    refashion them into such dissimilar structures as ear tubes, various glands
    of the neck region, and lungs.  This makes no sense unless one assumes
    that higher vertebrates are descendants of ancient fishes.
    Finally, viruses are rather complex critters compared to the sort of
    biopoietic protolife we are suggesting.

    Message: 6323
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: prime movers
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:33:56

    So, once again, if everything has a progenitor, where did God come from?

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:last

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     1:Evolved from a racoon?
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    Message: 6324
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:50:01

    Evolved from a racoon?

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 1290
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: SANDY
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 00:48:10

         What is your opinion on parochial or other private schools vs. public
    schools?  If possible, can you tell me a little more about your home taught
    curriculum?  You're between a rock and a hard place here.  The public school
    system may be inadequate but then you're only one person and this has to be
    time-consuming of your physical & mental energies.  What can I say, many of
    us might not be up to what you're trying to do.  My hat is off to you.

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     1:I've never seen you wearing a hat.
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    Message: 1291
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Devil Shit!!!
    Subject: Dog Shit! /last
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:51:06

    I've never seen you wearing a hat.

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    Message: 626
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: Nikki
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 01:53:54

    Because I didn't see it.  I watch Fox quite a bit (Sat, Sun, Mon.), so I
    have seen In Living Colour.  I only watch normal network stuff if I happen
    to be changing the channel.

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    Message: 1784
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Growl...
    Subject: Mike/1782
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:35:55

    A pox on yew.  (tm 1990 Jeff Beck)

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:To Jeff Beck

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     1:Mukidasu rikutsu ikaga rika rikiryo zenryo.  Ijofu, Kenben, gimei.
     2:                                Abayo
     3:                                 Rod
     4:end

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    Message: 65034
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 03:50:15

    People commonly repeat themselves in spite of receiving feedback indicating
    that they have been heard (which is self-evident in any case).  People also
    commonly will stop repeating themselves if they fail to receive such
    feedback, even when it is obvious that they have been heard.
    If you empathize with someone by indicating a sympathy for their views and
    feelings, and such empathy is spurious, you are manipulating, not
    communicating.  Furthermore, even if you can genuinely see their side of it,
    such empathy does in no way guarantee that they will reciprocate.  In fact,
    people often take advantage of such a compromise by pretending that your
    agreement with their position and their continued disagreement with yours is
    proof of the solidity of their position and of the weakness of yours.
    Indeed, if you refuse to compromise your position, people are often shaken
    by the strength of your convictions and will sometimes doubt their own
    position on this basis.  I am not advocating this as a technique of
    communication; I am merely pointing out the considerable flaws in your
    generalizations.  Even when this does not occur, people will often
    compromise their own position in order to get you to do the same.
    Trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes can be good, but has its
    pitfalls.  You are not someone else; you are you; an attempt to put yourself
    in their shoes often results in the mere projection of your personality and
    motives on their behavior.  As for teaching theories regarding motivation,
    what constitutes reasonable consensus, and why should consensus itself imply
    reason?  Consider the consensus of professional psychologists on various
    topics during various periods, not to mention that of laymen.

    Message: 65035
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Women on Men
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 05:05:15

    According to a poll financed by the Philip Morris tobacco company in the
    name of their "Virginia Slims" brand cigarettes, forty-seven percent of
    the women surveyed feel that men are "pond scum."

    "Their frustration comes out of trying to be superwomen," said Ellen Merlo,
    a Philip Morris vice president.  "Women are handling so many aspects of
    life -- trying to achieve success in careers, wanting to be a wife and a
    mother, run a home, and do it all well.  It's a lot for anyone to handle.
    What these broads need is a good smoke -- preferably one which will validate
    their unstable female egos."

    Philip Morris spokesman Michael Fitzpatrick added, "We will continue to
    market our Virginia Slims brand cigarettes, but we feel that our old slogan,
    'You've come a long way, baby' is passe.  Under consideration for the new
    slogan is 'I am woman; hear me cough,' also, 'Whoa, get a load of the size
    of the banana on that one!', and also 'They aren't breasts; they're
    mammilary extensions!'"

    Message: 65036
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: gospel language
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 05:16:24

     It has always been my understanding that the 4 Gospels, as well as the
    Epistle to the Hebrews, were written in Aramaic and Hebrew, while the
    remaining canonized books of the New Testament were written in Greek.

    Message: 65037
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: gordon/gospels
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 07:46:37

    The actual authors of these tracts are lost in history. All we have is the
    greek by authors unknown. It is very amusing to consider that some people
    actually worship these books as missives direct from God. Rumor has it
    that some churches are called Bible Churches, as tho it was the Bible that
    we should worship rather than God.

    Message: 65038
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/sperm
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 07:48:10

    If that is the case, then Jesus should have been born a woman, since
    there could be no male chromosome. The male chromosome is supplied by the
    father.

    Message: 65039
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 65036/Paul
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 08:34:41

       It would be a point worth considereing, however the Septuagint (LXX) OT
    translation into Greek, was created because many Jews were losing the Hebrew
    language. I have read somewhere that Jesus used the LXX.

    Message: 65040
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/65038
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 08:39:11

    You are trying to limit God to the confines of his own creation. God is not
    bound and chained to the order he gave nature. Just as you find it
    impossible for God to part the Red Sea, or feed thousands with a few fish
    and loaves of bread, it is only obvious that you couldn't comprehend that
    God could do what he wished, even though it may have violated the laws of
    nature. With such a limited view of God, it's no wonder that the Bible seems
    unbelievable to you. You are trying to make God subordinate to science.

    Message: 65041
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 09:03:54

    You listed the good things that religion "provides", like not killing your
    neighbor, or bedding his wife. But those are common sense, wouldn't you say?

    But look at the silly things like fornication.
    Don't do drugs, but alcohol and cigarettes are ok.
    Most of all, suffer through this life for eternal salvation.
    but, WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG, and you are just DEAD. End of biological
    processes. The program lives in the computers RAM, but turn it off and it is
    gone, what if your body is just like a computer. And there are no backup
    disks to be run elsewhere.
    May or may not be true, but it COULD be. And think of all the things you
    will have missed experiencing due to your beliefs.

    Christianity doesn't want your wallet?
    Praise the lord and pass your wallet {--- T-shirt material
    Jim and Tammy, Rectal Roberts, Pat Robherson
    And the more benign collection plate at the local church.

    These sheep are made for fleecin'

    and that's what their gonna do

    One's of these days their shears are gonna run all over you.

    Message: 65042
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliif/new modem
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 10:10:33

    You bet your sweet bippy is still doing great. Not ONCE since you've gotten
    it have I not been able to log in on the first try and not have to worry
    about line noise. I call that 'friendly service'! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65043
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/on T-shirt
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 10:11:45

    I loved your "don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!" That's perfect.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 65044
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/65040
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 13:03:29

    So, what you are saying is that I have no rational way of judging whether
    the Bible is telling a true story. For if you have to concoct fantastic
    schemes for things to happen, then that naturally lowers the credibility
    of the story to near zero. Step back and look at it from an unbelievers
    point of view. What is it about the Bible that should lend credibility to
    its story ? The stories should make sense within the context of the rules
    of the universe as we know it. Otherwise, how are we to determine truth
    for ourselves. Following your paradigm, I could conceivably believe any
    fantastic tale, that has enough believers to make itself a religion. How
    am I to judge the story of Muhammed, or Joseph Smith and the golden tablets
    ? Can I also say that those things could have been caused by God ?
    Certainly, since you have opened the door to allowing God to do anything. Do
    you understand my point ? If you do, how do you deal with it ? Do you turn
    off your critical faculties when engaging in worship ? How much better it is
    if we are whole people than blinding ourselves with possible untruths.

    Message: 65045
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 16:15:34

    Re:  "In search of Thornbob?  Where is he?"

    I'm still around Cliff!  I haven't been posting because of so much work (new
    format on KMEO-AM), but I've been trying to do zip downloads to keep up with
    all the action here.

    Wow!  There are hot debates on the main board, the $tatus board, and the
    Film board all about religion.  I find it incredible that people who insist
    they know that Jesus is nothing but a fairy tail, spend so much time and
    energy trying to prove it, and that the substance of most of their arguments
    is belittlement, sarcasm, and/or name calling.

    "Watch over your heart with all diligence,
    For from it flow the springs of life."  Proverbs 4:23

    My entry for bumper sticker:

    "Murder the babies,
    Baby the murders."

    Message: 65046
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shoot out
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 16:39:28

            THIS Saturday!!!!!!!!!   I will go try lay claim to the sight a bit
    early.  Last time I did not get there in time and we had the second choice
    spot.  Since the turnout sounds like it is going to be larger, we had better
    get the larger and better sight.   Dean Hathaway or Mike Carter know where
    it is, so maybe they can lead in the flock when it is time.   I was out at
    the sight this morning, and what a mess people have made of it...  Maybe I
    will have time to clear the junk before the GT'ers show.

                                    clif-

    Message: 65047
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Shootout TIME
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 17:59:16

    I'd say anyone who arrives after 9:30am at the intersection of
    Carefree highway and I-17 should already know where to go to get
    to the GT.
    Don't bother comming out if you are going to be late and don't know how to
    get there.

    Message: 65048
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shoot-out
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 19:40:13

    Hi,
      I suggest that all attendees bring ear protection. This can be as simple
    as a 50 cent pair of foam ear plugs if you have nothing better.
      I have tomorrow (Friday) off, and I plan to go out to the site and check
    it out also.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65049
    Author: John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo bbs
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 20:49:00

    I'm kinda new at this BBS stuff, but I've been calling around, and I see a
    fantastic amount of real unadulterated quatsch which I do not wish to visit
    again. I enjoy this board. I also read msgs from many of the people who use
    this board on the MENSA board and also (this is hard to admit, from a
    gun-owning conservative admirer of Oliver North) on the ACLU board. What
    other boards are there where I might enjoy an occasional stretch of the mind
    and some intellectual gymnastics? Even if I believe Rod and Melissa Dee to
    be absolutely wrong, I enjoy reading what they say.  And Ann O is still
    sexy. What other boards are there? Come payday, I'll even ask the mighty
    Apollo Sysop to accept my fee and let me be a member!

    Message: 65050
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 20:56:44

    Yes, but it's such a pernicious fairy tale.

    Message: 65051
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:24:24

            What a nice post....  After reading the $TA SIG where I been
    getting slammed from wall to wall, it was a pleasure reading your post.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  Don't get me wrong, wall slamming is fun sometimes...  Apollo's walls
    are made of RUBBER, except the PHAntom Zone... that is a wall of FIRE!

    Message: 65052
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:43:48

    Msg 65050...  Are you Rod Williams replacment in the insult department?
    I do not care as to your faith...  why do you wish to slam me for mine?
    The more I learn about atheists, the more hate I see in them.   I find
    myself liking to hang around other Christians... We have good clean fun, and
    there is a brotherhood that is felt that I can't describe in words. In
    Christians I don't find the profanity, the drugs and other rudeness I find
    in atheists groups.  Christian schools turn out better (overall) students
    then public schools that teach this Darwin Anti-God garbage.  Maybe only my
    views, but I have seen both sides....and I like the Christian outlook much
    better.

            I will say I do know some nice atheists, but they are few and far
    between.

                                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65053
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cummings/BBS
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:54:56

      I don't use a lot of boards, but I have been using them for a lot of years
    without finding anything to compare with Apollo for enriching conversation.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65054
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/atheists
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:56:36

      Do you feel the same way about people of other faiths as you do about
    the 'hateful' atheists.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65055
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Books
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 22:59:02

      On the subject of interesting science fiction books, I have a couple
    of recommendations. There is an author named L. Neil Smith who has quite
    a bit of interesting work around, if you can find it. He has written some
    Star Trek type books, which I haven't read, but one of his latest books is,
    "The Crystal Empire".
      It describes an alternate reality in which the bubonic plague decimated
    Europe to a much greater degree because certain leaders attempted to use it
    as a weapon. The spread of anglo saxon influence in the rest of the world
    was greatly slowed, and the civilizations they eventually met had then
    progressed beyond them. The world powers were Arabic and Asian empires
    which had never really touched each other. Technologies developed along
    much different lines, but still arrived at a lot of similar junctures.
      The book is largely told through the eyes of a most unusual man who
    comes to dwell in what we know as America. This character's life and
    travels bring us contact with so much of what is happening in his world
    that we learn of everything from the fate of the Vikings to the political
    and religious intrigues of three continents. He finally becomes the focal
    point in the uncovering of a heretofore little known world power, and the
    bringer of great changes.

    Message: 65056
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Books
    Date: 04/26/90  Time: 23:00:36

      L. Neil Smith has also written a series of books which I like even more
    than "The Crystal Empire". The first in the series was "The Probability
    Broach", which is out of print and nearly impossible to get. Fortunately,
    the rest of the books stand up very well individually.
      The probability broach is a device which allows the user to enter an
    alternate universe in which every point is basically the same point, and
    then return. By doing so it is possible to come back out anywhere and
    anytime. The ability to control this factor lags somewhat behind its
    discovery, and results in a lot of travelers being spread through time and
    space in ways they did not choose. It develops that there are universes
    similar to, but not quite the same as our own, which can be entered in this
    fashion. The main story line in some of the books concerns interaction
    between our universe and the discoverers of the broach, who are from a
    timeline which is exactly identical to our own, except that an event in
    early American history resulted in them diverging from us further and
    further after that point.
      The books are called 'The North American Confederacy Series' and the
    titles include, "The Probability Broach", "The Nagasaki Vector", "The Venus
    Belt", "Their Majesties' Bucketeers", "Tom Paine Maru", "The Gallatin
    Divergence", "A New Covenant", "Brightsuit MacBear", and "Taflak Lysandra".
      The technologies and social evolutions which punctuate these books are
    amazing to say the least. Some of these titles are in the library, and I
    have a few of them which I would lend if anyone is interested.
      See You Later, Dean H.

    Message: 65057
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DEAN...
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 00:09:33

            Good question...  I get along well with some Jews I know and there
    are even a few Arabs that I felt a kinship too.  I find peoples who believe
    in a God (the same one under another name at times) to have more respect
    then those who believe in nothing at all.  I have NEVER tried to even get
    them to switch faiths as they are far better off then any angry atheist who
    has nothing to look forward to, but a meaningless life.  I don't see people
    of other faiths slamming us Christians around on Apollo, only atheists.  So
    to answer your questin Dean... "No, I don't feel the same about people of
    other faiths as I do of athiests".

            The above is in general terms... Unlike some people, I hate lables
    as there are good and bad in any group.  There are also people who CLAIM to
    be Christians, but are far from it.  It is generally then when they get
    caught doing something God-awful, that atheists get excited pointing fingers
    at Christians as a group, saying we are all the same.  That is pure bunk,
    but desperate atheists will do desperate things.

            I am HAPPY, and that upsets some.  Sorry guy!

                                    clif-

    Message: 65058
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 01:23:40

    Do you get along with atheists that aren't angry?

    Message: 65059
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last couple
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:14:56

    You ever wonder why Rod has so many children?  Because he has to keep up
    with all these Christians pregnating the Earth.  He trains them in Athiestic
    ways and sends them to school to do the same.

    Maybe he'll try for 5 more.

    Message: 65060
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/65050
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:19:47

    What insult are you speaking of?  Bob Thornburg asked a perfectly valid
    question: if Christianity (or more broadly, religion in general) is a fairy
    tale, why do atheists spend so much time and energy arguing against it?  I
    gave him a perfectly valid answer: that a destructive fairy tale is no less
    destructive for its imaginary nature.

    The rest of your message is just silly.

    P.S. Perhaps I was mistaken in considering this BBS a forum for intelligent
    discussion.  Or perhaps I was correct, and perhaps you should remember that
    fact.  It is not as though I came to your house and started attacking your
    faith.  My cousin is visiting in Phoenix very soon; she is an ordained
    minister.  I have no plans to discuss religion with her during her stay.

    Message: 65061
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/books
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 02:22:52

    Thanks for the reviews.  Some of the best books are out of print, and it is
    good to get a description.  There are local bookstores which do out of print
    book searches, for a very small fee (typically $1.00)

    Message: 65062
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 04/27/90  Time: 03:00:48

    Let us just suppose that you did move to Teheran, hypothetical situation
    here.   Now you are totally surrounded by Iranians in your everyday
    existence.  Also suppose that you understood and spoke their language.

    The people there are raised with their religion.  From the time an Iranian
    is born, their mind becomes accustomed to hearing, 'Ali this and Ali that'.
    They grow up with seeing people pray towards Mecca.  They hear the comments
    made by those around them concerning their religion.  Every time they hear
    something about the dogma from an elder or a peer it is like a weaver making
    a thick garment with a new stitch being added.  And they are wearing that
    garment.

    It is, Daryl, the same in a Shiite Moslem (93%) or Sunni Moslem (5%)
    nation as it is here.  Only the dogma is different.  But in both cases from
    the time of a babies birth to their death, in everyday life they are often
    reminded of a religious belief.  Achoo!, well God bless you.  Thank God
    you're here.  The Devil you say, Jesus H. Christ, etc.  I heard it everyday
    from the time I first remember and I heard it today while doing a call.  It
    is ingrained in our society, in our language, in every language.

    You trying to convert a Shiite Moslem to Christianity would be exactly
    like a Shiite trying to convert you, same difference.  Their religion would
    be too unfamiliar to you, likewise yours to them.  Christianity is not
    something they grew up with and it would be too uncomfortable for them to
    handle.  Besides they were indoctrinated all their life by just being there
    among the people. Do you understand the point I am making?  Forgive me if it
    is too drawn out but I want you to understand what I'm saying.

    According to the Moslem you are going to hell when you expire because you
    don't pray towards or visit Mecca.  According to popular Christian belief,
    the Shiite is going to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus.  One is
    just as convinced as the other.  Neither will back down and both will no
    doubt die holding their particular belief as true.

    But which one will actually go to hell?  In any case, according to people
    of religious attitude, hell must be a very busy place.  And for eternity no
    less, living, feeling, entities will be tortured.

    It takes a well indoctrinated mind to believe this but billions are being
    spoon fed it on a continuum.  What a pity.

    Religions of the world divide people, not bring them together even though
    love of neighbor is taught.  If religion did not exist suppose then the
    great barrier that would be eliminated, like the Berlin Wall or Iron
    Curtain.  Yes, religion is like that.

    If you were debating with a Shiite, he would pull out his book and point
    out his truths just as you would.  He would show you where it is written
    and also point out that 'Ali' inspired the book therefore it must be
    correct, just as you would.

    But the Shiite, the Christian, the atheist, etc. are all brother men on
    this small planet.  They each have the same basic feelings, love their
    children, their wife, some of their neighbors and each are entitled to the
    same rewards.  They each struggle through, encountering and enduring much
    the same things.

    Many gods have been created over the centuries by the tribes of men.  Most
    are flawed in that they, the gods, demand that some illogical duty be
    performed or some silly belief be held as true and important lest eternal
    torment be suffered by the disbeliever.

    Ali is the same way.  It all makes little sense but for those with a mind
    in that direction, it was something that was taught from childhood by rote
    so in reality, the beholder of rather illogical dogma cannot really be
    blamed no more than blaming a dog for performing a trick it was taught.

    When you do wake up and start walking in the true light you will be rid of
    all those contradictions that are buried in your mind, same for the
    Shiite.

    To summarize this, thus far:  People of the many different beliefs learned
    from their associations, thus in a Moslem, Buddhist, Christian or other
    community they ate what they were fed.  Fear of something new is one of
    mankinds weaknesses therefore humans tend to go with the flow, or what is
    comfortable to them.

    My first daughters name is Christian and I at one time considered myself of
    that religion.  It really would have been extraordinary if I had named her
    Shiite, eh?  No, people of the white American persuasion usually stick
    with a sect of the country they are raised in unless of course a person,
    for one reason or another is a rebel then they may try Yoga or being a
    Buddhist or something different.

    Me, well I was awakened by an extraordinary event in my life back in 1969
    but I didn't change immediately but that's evolution, eh.  No, but I did do
    a lot of thinking about life until I evolved into what I am now.  I suppose
    I'll keep thinking and changing at least I hope so.  But Daryl, I could
    never go back to believing in a creator that plays cruel and treacherous
    games with its creations nor could I even go back to thinking that we were
    created unless of course it was by an evil entity.

    In this series of messages I have concentrated on several points.  I have
    not answered your messages point by point but I will get to that.  I wanted
    to get this off my chest first.

    You did ask me to list other religions and their miracles, such as virgin
    births, walking on water, rising from the dead, etc. and I will but both
    copies of my book are loaned to Peter and Mike, respectively.  I will get a
    copy and comply with your request.

    Man, this board hasn't "cranked" like this in a long while.  It's hard to
    keep up but so very damn interesting.  -Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:G

    Goodbye, Rod Williams
    You were on 28:07

    Please hang up now