### Apollo BBS Archive - June 25, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 01:19:19

    Shall I tell you the secret of the whole world?

    It is that we have only known the back of the world.  We see everything from
    behind.  That is not a tree, but the back of a tree.  That is not a cloud,
    but the back of a cloud.  Cannot you see that everything is stooping and
    hiding a face?  If we could only get round front --

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:What you said makes sense in a strange sort of way.  In fact it makes a lot
     2:of sense and is a good way to put it.
     3:
     4:Thanks, I needed that.
     5:
     6:Seems like the census people are in a bit of trouble, eh?

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 18:01:00

    The census people are fools.  The census people are boobs, incompetent oafs,
    poltroons, triflers and dimwits.  They still owe me around seventy-four
    dollars.  That is quite some improvement from the time when they owed me
    over $1300.00 .
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:What are you going to do next in the economic survival department?

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 19:10:06

    Do you know this Randy Sanders guy?   What does he do?   He said he might
    even join Apollo.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Yeah, Randy has been a friend of mine for many years.  He is a CADD operator
     2:for a Scottsdale firm.  He started out using my computer to design easily
     3:built homes for the homeless and was featured in the Az. Republic on the
     4:first page of the second section.  There was quite a story about him.
     5:
     6:He has taught Melody to add and read pretty well.  He is an okay guy.
     7:
     8:                                Rod
     9:
    10:P.S.  My mouse works like new.  I think it was the paperboard I used to
    11:shorten (or renew its correct travel) the distance between the button and
    12:the contact.  Take care.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 66913
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 01:30:21

    Plants are alive, but not sentient.
    Men can reason, but it does not follow from that fact that they have more
    rights than those beings which do not reason as well or at all.
    Nor does it follow that because men can reason, that they DO reason.  If man
    was a rational animal, then he would not prostitute intellect before petty
    emotion, and you would not allow pride to motivate you to excuse barbarous
    acts in the name of humanity.

    Message: 66914
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/66898
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 01:45:24

    I will not make blanket generalizations about the differences between "men
    and beasts,"   because such differences vary, depending on the beasts we are
    comparing (men included), and because differences, in a general,
    all-inclusive sense, ARE both qualitative and quantitative.  Even within the
    specific context of the ability to reason, there are qualitative differences
    between the way two species reason...that does not alter or contradict the
    fact that the ability to reason is not unique to man, and that one can still
    quantitatively compare the degree of evolution of each qualitatively
    different manner of reasoning between species.  One can examine an oak tree
    and a shrub, and say that there is a qualitative difference; but one can
    also examine the maturity of each and compare them in terms of their
    relative stages of growth. I find it amusing that you should resort to
    comparing me with Hitler: is this an example of the shining intellect of
    which you boast, or the paltry ego which uses rationality like a condom?

    Message: 66915
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/clothing
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 01:49:32

    You remarks are foolish.  First, there was a time when men were covered with
    hair in the manner of animals, and so did not need the hair of animals.
    Second, it is absurd to imagine that a bearskin, wrapped around one loosely
    in the manner of a savage, would prevent the death from exposure which the
    intemperate climate of an ice age would necessitate.  You have been watching
    too many Flintstones cartoons.

    Message: 66916
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean H./66908
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 02:04:39

    And how do you know that an ape, or a dog, or a whale or a dolphin -- or any
    other beast -- does not have the capacity for this conceptual knowledge you
    describe; that it cannot conceive of an abstract entity?  How *would* you
    be able to know?  Actually, in the case of primates, there is abundant
    clinical data from which one could infer that animals possess such
    conceptual knowledge.  This exists in the form of language experiments, and
    also in the form of puzzle solving tests which require the creation and use
    of tools from items having no natural or observable relationship to each
    other in terms of their use toward a common goal.  This also exists
    implicitly in the social relationships observed in the animal kingdom, and
    in the archetypes which animals recognize.  Father, protector, mother,
    enemy, friend, child, love, hate, fear, loathing...these are abstractions,
    not concretes.  Animals demonstrate in the same manner as humans the ability
    to grasp these things as abstract entities aside from any concrete forms in
    which they might manifest themselves.  Again, you are confusing the ability
    to think abstractly with the ability to think abstractly at a given level of
    competence.  One is absolute, the other, relative.

    Message: 66917
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean H./rights
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 02:15:50

    Rights are certainly conceptual, but that does not make their
    acknowledgement a condition of their existence.  Rights are axiomatic:
    either men have the right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness, despite
    what they themselves believe, or what their oppressors tell them, or they do
    not.  I reject your notion that animals cannot conceive of the concept of
    rights, because I believe that this concept is intuitively obvious, even to
    most animals.  More importantly, however, I dispute your arbitrary and
    senseless contention that rights must be acknowledged before they can exist.
    You speak of rights in one breath as though they were necessarily bestowed
    upon the user by himself, and in the next, you speak of them as if they
    had some absolute, inviolate nature, unrelated to the arbitrary motives of
    those who invent and apply them.  Make up your mind, and be consistent.  Do
    not be petty and humanocentric.  Your criterion of humanity, or even of
    intellectual capacity, is as arbitrary as the slave-trader's criterion of
    race, even assuming that your contention that animals lack the ability for
    abstract thought is correct.

    Message: 66918
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 02:46:51

    There is some mischief afoot.  You have about you the air of a Victorian
    bourgeoisie; there is something fictional about your manner.  What is the
    common thread that runs between yourself, Gordon Little, and Mike Middleton,
    and what if anything does R.S. have to do with any of this?

    Message: 66919
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Religion
    Subject: 66666
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 03:44:36

    Well, as of my logon, it is the oldest message...Bye bye piece of history.

    Message: 66920
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff-Rod
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 03:54:02

    Cliff: Debated an unreasonable lady tonight about gun control. First she
    said that just the cops should have them(I added, if none other existed). I
    debunked that...Then, the waiting period. She just wouldn't accept ANY
    reason why it is not a good thing. "It's too easy, access should be
    limited". Then she brings up some story about a friend who was 17, and was
    killed when his friends were playing with a shotgun. SO? I know a kid that
    was permanently disabled playing chicken with a car. "Yes, but the gun is
    easy access". So's the street behind my house...

    Rod: Did your wife eat the placenta?

    Message: 66921
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 06:02:18

    501 rounds?
    You must have been sitting there..busy..like a burned out gambling
    hall bum pulling the arm on a one-armed bandit.
    Each time ... you put in a shell, some copper and you pull the handle
    and ker-chink...I can just imagine the little glimmer in your eyes
    each time one of them popped out into the tray. I'll bet you
    ran your fingers through them to check the "textuire".
    Yes, the little quiver from your upper lip shook the thin black
    lines and melted into a sneer as you tried to imagine what it'd be
    like if you pulled the handle and hit the JACKPOT.
    KA-BLAMMO!
    It would be showering ammo.
    Heh heh.
    Well, I guess I gotta shower you with some bucks so I can have the
    priviledge of flinging the heads near 1000 feet per second down
    Ben Avery's backyard.
            What a strange world I live in.

    Message: 66922
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Apollo Art
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 07:44:57

            I recently had the honor of visiting our Beloved SysOp for a
    couple hours at his manse.  While there, I was not only taken
    into the Holy of Holies to view the oracle Apollo, but was also
    invited to view some of the art work uploaded by some of the
    system's users.
            Let me tell you, folks, I came away impressed!  I'm a long-
    time user of this system, but never took the time or trouble to
    download any of the graphics created by our own artistic
    community.  The works of Mike Carter and Ann Oudin (not
    necessarily in that order) are really something to see!  Annie's
    animals are just as cute as Disney intended; Mike's silhouettes
    are nothing short of spectacular!
            Too bad those of you who are too cheap to subscribe to
    Apollo can't get into the [L]ibrary to see them.  They really are
    very, very nice.

    Message: 66923
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby/funny
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 08:31:30

    Honestly, you really have a sense of humor - case in point, your answer to
    Rod -- " I insist you tell me what you are planning to serve before I
    accept"! Hahahahahahahhahahahhahahahaha. A Placenta sandwich. Oh, gross!
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66924
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 08:41:47

    Thanks for the compliments re: the drawings. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66925
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: HOT today!
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 15:58:50

            At this time the radio has said it is official...it is 119 sizzling
    degrees out there and may even go HIGHER!

            Arn't you glad to be in Arizona?  Anyone for a shooting GT
    this afternoon?

            All kidding aside, is this a record for Phoenix as an all time high?

    Message: 66926
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hot
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 17:12:57

    The official tempature was 120 at the airport but according to my digital
    watch thermometer it was 126 driving around on the streets.

    It was like being in a blast furnace.  Could hell be any hotter?

    Message: 66927
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/Plancenta/eat
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 17:13:27

    Of course not, we are civilized folk.

    Message: 66928
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Species of animal
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 17:22:39

    Perhaps all life came from the froth of the oceans of the world.  Each
    single celled life developed as to what was happening to it at the time.  If
    it adapted by mutating correctly then a species began.

    Perhaps all species are cousins and who among us can say which species
    enjoys the most happiness and fulfillment.  I would think it would either be
    the species of the oceans or of the air.

    The only bird or fish that I have seen in a prison are those in humans
    houses and that depresses me no end.

    If one believes that the human animal is superior then one must assume that
    their is a superior species of human over the rest.  There is the white ape,
    the oriental ape and the black ape just to name a few.

                                    Rod

    Message: 66930
    Author: Randy Sanders
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ed/Rod
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 18:59:56

    Hello dudes. Hot enough for ya? Say hello to all the Children from me.
    Ed, ask Taylor if she still wants to 'do lunch' sometime. bye guys. -randy.

    Message: 66931
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: HOT
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 19:53:57

    I would like to point out that I predicted a 120 degree day in May.
    Any doubters about global warming ???

    Message: 66932
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 20:50:29

      According to one scientist, the reason that the Earth is warming up is
    simply that we finally getting to the end of the Ice Age.  It'll cool off
    again in a few hundred thousand years, so don't worry.

                         =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 66933
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cooling...
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 20:55:27

            Well, It has been cooler overall then LAST year!  One day does not
    make it 'Global warming'.

            And what is your ElEcTrIc bill going to be this month?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66934
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DeanH./knowledge
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 21:07:08

            Hear, hear, Dean! Well said, and right on! Sounds like you once read
    a book about Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. Whatever, you remembered it
    right, and phrased it well!       --John C.--

    Message: 66935
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff B. /66918
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 21:24:47

            I don't understand, Jeff. There must be a lot of mischief afoot, but
    I don't connect with it. I certainly am not a Victorian bourgeoisie, though
    I admit to a certain admiration for G.K. Chesterton. But a common thread
    that runs between (sic) me, Gordon Little, and Mike Middleton? No way!
    Especially Mike Middleton! And who or what is R.S.? Please explain.
            We are at an impasse, unsolvable, it appears, on the question of the
    essence of humanity. If you continue to argue that there is no essential
    difference between man and animal, I, of course, must maintain the other
    side.
            I'm sorry you thought I compared you to Hitler. I merely stated that
    Nietszche also said there is no essential difference, therefore it is to be
    assumed that some creatures are more advanced than others. (Your earlier
    argument, I don't have which post.) Therefore, the Uebermensch, the Master
    Race, has a right and obligation to dominate. I pointed out the similarity
    of your argument to Nietszche's, not Hitler.      --John C.--

    Message: 66936
    Author: $ Jack Flash
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/dolphins
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 22:17:11

    I don't think it was a question of dolphins 'choosing' to remain in the
    ocean.  The official line is that they hopped out of the soup when
    everything else did, evolved on land, and then RETURNED to the ocean (as did
    all the cetaceans).  Even if they're not great conceptualizers, I think we
    should credit them with great foresight.

    Message: 66937
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Clothes
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 22:59:05

      I am glad that I don't have fur. As it is I can easily adapt to live
    anywhere on earth by changing clothing. Being able to modify our 'shells' to
    venture underwater and into space are further examples of diverging from the
    simple, animal expedient of living within the range of environment that we
    are naturally suited for. I suppose you abhor that capability as well.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66938
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: $Jeff B./Rights
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 23:21:47

      I am speaking as a simple matter of practicality when I say that rights
    are conceptual and arise from the ability to grant them to others. Any sort
    of arbitrary 'rights' may be imagined for humans, animals, or plants, but to
    be an effective right, rather than an abstract notion without any weight,
    there has to be a mechanism by which the right is enforced. Humans create
    rights for themselves by mutual agreement not to violate them, and to
    enforce them against any minority that would. A 'right' which does not
    originate in this way is an external construct, not intrinsic to the entity
    which receives it without being able to craft it or comprehend it.
      I am interested in any sources you can recommend on the conceptual
    abilities of animals. If animals had the ability to detach concepts from
    concrete perception I would expect them to act differently than they do. I
    have never known an animal to show any signs of this type which I could
    recognize. Even though they may not be able to communicate as we do, due to
    lack of speech aparatus, I would expect conceptual ability to lead them to
    communicate values and concepts in other ways, which we could clearly see.
    Art is one of man's ways of communicating such things, do animals exhibit
    any inclinations toward artistic expression? If some animals do have such
    abilities, and are capable of the reason it takes to mutually create a
    right, then we would be wrong in not recognizing those rights, just as
    slavery advocates had wrongly depicted blacks as sub-human.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66939
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Downtown PHX?
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 23:47:20

            I wish I had time to tell you all my experiences and thoughts about
    DownTown Phoenix!!!   What a joke the Patriots Square and the surrounding
    area is.  I had reason to be there this past week, and I can't see how they
    expect to get people to WANT to come to the DownTown area when they do
    everything they can do to make it a lousy place for you to park and have
    fun.  Watching the Meter Maids running around giving everything in sight
    tickets was my lunch time entertainment.  I hope I never have to go to that
    Hell-Hole again, I may even rename the [PHA]ntom Zone to [DOW]nTown Phx.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

            120.3....  WoW!

    Message: 66940
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 23:53:15

    There was this big PUMPMEUP article about downtown Phoenix in Sunday's
    Repulsive.

    Message: 66941
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: HELL!
    Date: 06/26/90  Time: 01:37:59

    I work at the Airport and I wantto tell you a little secret...
    those weenies at the NOAA have their stupid thermometer in the
    %$%^&*&^$!!@+ SHADE!!!!!!.

    The outside temperature as WE feel it walking around at *** GROUND ***
    level (and not 22 feet in the air as the ILLUSTRIOUS NOAA) at the
    airport was as follows:
    North runway point: 123.8     15:05
    South runway point: 125.1     15:14
    Taxiway Charlie   : 123.9     15:09

    Excuuuuuuusee me, NOAA, but I WALK at 0-6 feet....I sit even closer
    to the asphalt.  I burned my pinkie on my car door today.
    The glass in one of the employees cars busted out because the nerd
    had all his windows rolled up. The glass was on the ground fresh
    when I arrived at 1:45.
    We dialed the Time & Temperature..and I quote:
    The time is 5:29 Downtown temperature 125

    We have a bunch of **$$$ WEENIES $$$** out here who simply LOVE this
    weather and cringe at the thought of anything cooler. I submit that
    they are next of kin to LIZARDS! Do you hear me? LIZARDS you GEEKS!
    Fry on a rock..this is a DESERT... WHAT AM I DOING HEREE??? AAAIGGHH!!
    AHAHAHAHAHAH ARRGHH..ITS HOT! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! AIIAIAIAGHHHAHHAHAHAAH.

    Message: 66942
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/26/90  Time: 02:00:23

    Don't mind me.. I just love ARIZONA..why...I moved here.
    Right CLIFF?
    Hmmm?
    Can you say "WEATHER"?
    Hmm?
    Can you say "ROCK"?
    Hmmm?
    Can you say "PROPANE"?
    Hmmm>
    Well, I thought you could...and you know what, Cliff?
    We're going to Mr Lizard's neighborhood today.
    There he is...hiding under that rock.
    Let's pretend it's 3:00pm...get the propane...light it up like this..
    be careful at home kids....ok...steady Cliff.. light her up...WOOOSH..
    I like the way it burns, don't you like that?
    Now apply the flame to the rock. That's right. Yess. Now watch
    Mr Lizard as he tears out from under the rock like a beached torpedo.
    Can you say "HOT"?
    Watch him as he dances wildly around looking for a cool spot. He can't
    find one can he? Well, that's why we don't live in a desert girls and
    boys. Leave the blowtorch going and close the lid Cliff. Afterall...
    it's his neighborhood and it's hot in there.
    Do you like that?

    Message: 66943
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/other species
    Date: 06/26/90  Time: 02:30:10

    Wake up!  Now that that is out of the way I will continue.  I am not certain
    about all species because I have not firsthandedly observed them all but
    speaking for the ones that I've met, they all speak very clearly,
    telepathetically speaking.

    For the most part they, the other species, are more intelligent than the
    human animal and have learned from us just what not to do.

    Consequently, they neither have jails, landlords or borders, save for the
    natural ones.

    You are not willing to give them credit because you have been taught, just
    like most everone else, creature loyalty.  You are a human therefore humans
    are the most intelligent species.  Just as your high school was the best
    high school, etc.

    Other species tend to have more of a brotherhood, excluding humans though
    because the planet is on a path to fairly quick ruin because of us.

    By the way, the animals I have made contact with were all atheists.  Just
    thought you'd like to know.

            I may see you later,
                 Rod

    Message: 66944
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/downtown
    Date: 06/26/90  Time: 02:33:27

    The whole idea of Goddard and his gang was to make that area seem taboo to
    the homeless thus giving Phoenix the look of prosperity.  He was only
    partially successful though as he forget to take into account that a cup of
    anti-freeze of a drink of canned heat, not to mention the hair spray makes
    the transients impervious to a bad environment.

    Do you now understand?

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