### Apollo BBS Archive - December 5, 1991

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    Message: 8734
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Gordon/last
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:20:45

    Speaking of anyone I know?

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    Message: 5187
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cliff/morality
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 04:30:23

    I find homosexual behavior between males extremely distasteful, and I don't
    consider homosexuality in general to be natural behavior.  However, I
    tolerate the homosexual  "condition" because I believe the majority of gays
    are not responsible for their sexual preference.  That said, and supported
    by recent neurological findings I might add, how can we deny them their
    sexuality?

    I don't particularly relish the fact that my tax dollars are spent to find
    cures for the diseases of smoking and drinking, but, unlike you (and Ann), I
    realize that the ultimate outcome of this research will be cures for many
    other kinds of diseases.  I stand by my prediction that the revelations
    produced through AIDS research will greatly benefit society in general, not
    just those that are HIV positive.  Sometimes we need an "enemy" to
    accelerate tha pace of research.  That should be clear to you as the 50th
    anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor approaches.  Think about it.

    Message: 5188
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cliff - Immorality
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:32:59

    > Anal intercourse is not natural.  The rear end is not even
    > designed for such usage and can be damaged severely.  Hence, it
    > is immoral.

    "Driving a car is not natural.  The earth was not designed to cope with
    millions of automobiles and is being damaged severely.  Hence, driving a car
    is immoral."

    I know this argument takes your statement to ridiculous extremes, Cliff, but
    do you agree with it?  If not, what, besides damage to what God or Mother
    Nature gave us contributes to immorality?

    Message: 5190
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Immoral<->Unnatural
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:58:17

    Um. I see everyone else has made my point. Never mind.

    Message: 5191
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: AIDS
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:45:51

    This is all so silly - here all of you are, except Cliff, for anal
    intercourse - saying it is in the same league as driving a car, etc, etc,
    and all of you are forgetting the fact if you B. F someone, you can get AIDS
    real quick and that is why it has spread and is spreading. Your all crazy,
    you know that?! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 5192
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 12:37:48

            A car was designed to be driven....  The human rear end was not
    designed to be a sex organ for reproduction.  It's a waste disposal system.

            This is getting ridiculous...  Do it if you like it, but to me it is
    repulsive, and one reason why AIDS has spread as it has.  Yet... people
    still do it and on top of that, they try to get the public's 'blessing' for
    it.  Well, forget about that Bill, I will never give anal intercourse my
    blessing!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 5193
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject

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    Subject:AIDS

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Butt fucking happens.  It should be dealt with through education.  We first
     2:must be educated in order to educate and at present we are still a
     3:struggling society.  We don't know all the answers therefore mistakes
     4:happen.  The oddities of the world come about from the world being odd.  If
     5:we were a totally sane-rational world, butt fucking would not exist but it
     6:does and this reflects upon society as a whole, not an individuals fault.
     7:
     8:end

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    Message: 5193
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: analogies
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:24:45

    Yes, dirt bikes were designed to be driven -- but what about the desert,
    forest, etc., across and through which people drive them, Cliff?  Are these
    people acting immorally?

    Note to all:  Since Ann can't follow an argument, and seems to be incapable
    of presenting one, I shall furthermore ignore any such attempts by her.
    Note that this is *not* based just upon recent discussions, but on years of
    reading her messages -- both when we were on the same side and when we
    disagreed about a topic.

    Message: 5194
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Flying immorality
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 21:33:06

    Flying is real unnatural.

    Message: 5195
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: AIDS
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 22:44:06

    Butt fucking happens.  It should be dealt with through education.  We first
    must be educated in order to educate and at present we are still a
    struggling society.  We don't know all the answers therefore mistakes
    happen.  The oddities of the world come about from the world being odd.  If
    we were a totally sane-rational world, butt fucking would not exist but it
    does and this reflects upon society as a whole, not an individuals fault.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 1987
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod/haze
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 05:51:13

    No, I've been holding my breath since the inversion layer settled in. I sure
    hope it blows away soon! I'm turning purple!
     By the way, while we agree on so little, I though I should tell you that I
    really enjoyed your post on friendship on the main board. Sex is easy.
    Real friendships have to be really worked at.

    Message: 1988
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Blowing Smoke

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    Subject:Paul

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     1:Thank you for your kind comment.
     2:end

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    Message: 1988
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Blowing Smoke
    Subject: Melissa/Brother
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:59:40

    Keep encouraging him. Eventually, he will stop. The worst thing he can do is
    give up on himself because he keeps backsliding.

    Message: 1989
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod/Haze
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:00:24

    Yeah. Hack! Cough! Brack! Wheeze!

    Message: 1990
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 22:46:03

    Thank you for your kind comment.

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    Subject:Green Lantern/haze

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     1:Earth and all on it is composed of derbis from the cosmos.  It's a long
     2:cycle, I suppose.  I hope we evolve soon.
     3:end

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    Message: 80294
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Question?
    Subject: European newspapers
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 01:27:11

    Which countries' newspapers did you read?  What I really want to know is how
    broad a base for comparison your experience gives you, so that I can ask you
    to compare American newspublisher sensibilities with a sort of generic
    European sensibility, assuming the European (let's say, British, French, and
    German) newspapers are in that sense homogeneous enough to make the concept
    meaningful.

    Do you find that American newspapers are by and large more concerned with
    purely domestic issues than European newspapers, with the possible exception
    of sensationalistic world disasters and so forth, or that they're about
    equal, only, the priorities are different, as evidenced by placement in the
    headlines?

    How important do you think geography is in terms of the coverage of the
    Yugoslavian civil war?  Is western Europe more concerned because it's right
    next door?  How much coverage did the Europeans give the war in Nicaragua
    compared to the U.S. newsmedia?

    How interested should we be in a civil war in Yugoslavia?  More interested
    than in the perennial civil wars in Africa which cause just as much if not
    more civilian hardship?  Or are we just not paying enough attention to
    worldwide civil wars in general?  There isn't enough room on page one to
    cover them all.  Should we add a "War" section?  I'm not being sarcastic,
    just wondering how we can set priorities without being arbitrary.

    Message: 80295
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 04:09:48

    In your own way, as usual, you cut through all the nonsense and say
    something not only valid, but thoughtful and touching.  In all sincerity,
    many people could learn much from you.

    Message: 80296
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/morality
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 04:13:50

    We all have our own moral code, one that we hopefully live by.  I don't
    happen to think that sexual behavior is immoral, though it can certainly be
    unwise.  I do think that an immoral person is one that believes that people
    deserve to die because of their sexual behavior.

    Message: 80297
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/Johnson
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 05:34:31

     How can you say that noone, even Earvin Johnson (the magic has gone out)
    knows how he contracted HIV, when he himself has stated that he got it
    through heterosexual contact?

    Message: 80298
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 05:37:25

     I have seen a lot more about AIDS on Apollo lately than I have seen in any
    newspaper. DOes that mean that we (you) are hyping it up too much?

    Message: 80299
    Author: John Groseclose
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 80210
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:13:29

    So, what you're saying, Ann, is that even if the Roman Empire WERE
    promiscuous, we outnumber them?

    I'd still have to disagree.  There may be more of us, but I'd be willing to
    bet that the "perversions per capita" of the Romans still beats the modern
    numbers.

    As for the women always having fewer lovers, have you ever heard of the
    Roman "hetairae?"  Women that often had as many as 30-40 different lovers
    per DAY?

    Message: 80300
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/I.O.U.'s 1/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:26:31

    BB> Once again, I'm afraid I've missed something here.  How does the Fed
    BB> get to be both giver and recipient of the same I.O.U.?

    Good question.  They get to be both give and recipient of the same I.O.U. by
    passing laws.  Since there is a presumption, under our "representative
    democracy" (they conveniently ignore the Constitutional Republic side of
    things) that the PEOPLE authorize the laws, they can adopt the position that
    in reality those I.O.U.'s are authorized by the people and represent the
    people's debt to the FED.  To put it another way, to the FED, those I.O.U.'s
    represent 'credit' extended to the people.  To the people they represent
    debt.

    The FED (the owners of it, actually) control Congress and the Executive
    Branch and the Judicial Branch, and they make sure laws are passed and
    upheld in their own best interest and in no one else's.  They have created
    the perfect debt-money system: create money out of thin air, lend it to
    their member banks, who lend it down through the system to the corporations
    and ultimately the consumer, and charge interest on that money created out
    of thin air.  The only way to pay the interest is to take some of that
    fraudulent money out of circulation, which slows down the economy and leaves
    the principal owing and still accruing interest.  The only way to pay back
    the principal is the same way, which leaves the interest still owing and
    compounding.  The only way to keep from slowing down the economy,

    Message: 80301
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/I.O.U.'s 2/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:27:20

    therefore, is to create more money out of thin air, which increases both the
    principal and the interest accrual (and inflation!), and therefore their
    profits.  Thus, they believe (well, actually they know better, but they want
    YOU to think they believe) this is the best way to control the so-called
    "boom-and-bust" cycles of business to prevent periodic recessions and
    depressions.  That was the excuse used to impose this illegal, immoral,
    unConstitutional, fraudulent, and fattening (to them) system upon us.

    But it does not control the so-called "boom-and-bust" cycles of business, as
    history clearly shows; all it does is give them the power to create their
    own "boom-and-bust" cycles for their own profit and to effect political
    change in their favor (such as creating a favorable climate for
    government-issued serial numbers on the people, establishing socialism,
    etc.)

    Message: 80302
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sorry I'm late
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:27:59

    I apologize for the delay in answering messages.  I've been working longer
    hours and getting paid for it less, attending award ceremonies, and studying
    dah di-di-di-dit dit  dah-dah dah-dah-dah di-dah-dit di-di-dit dit
    dah-di-dah-dit dah-dah-dah dah-di-dit dit and refreshing my memory on how to
    repair a 15-year-old color tv.

    Message: 80303
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Soviet gold
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:28:49

    BB> The Russian needs to barter for the rights because rubles can't leave
    BB> Russia.  Last I heard the writer was considering trading for some
    BB> high-quality vacuum tubes used in guitar amplifiers.

    I can believe that, almost -- though I would be startled by a revelation
    that Russia had any high-quality guitar amplifier tubes.

    Interesting note:  You noticed that a bunch of countries decided to give the
    Soviet Union foreign aid?  Did you see mentioned, anywhere in any of the
    news reports, that the Soviet Union is sitting on 200 metric tons of gold,
    or that those foreign aid deals did not in any way require any portion of
    that gold as collateral?

    I still say the Soviet break-up and the misery the Soviet people are
    enduring is contrived for the purpose of world domination by the New World
    Order.

    Message: 80304
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Fractured Reserve
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:30:04

    FS> Of course the fractinal reserve ssytem controlls the value of money.
    FS> The value of money is controlled, in part, how much of "it" there is in
    FS> circulation.  Anything that results in more of "it" in circulation will
    FS> devalue "it".  Lowering the reserve requirements allows more loans
    FS> which puts more money in circulation.

    I said that.  But okay, I yield:  this is the "control" represented by the
    FED's "prime lending rate to member banks."  It is also the "control" that
    has gotten "out of control" on more than one occasion when FED analysts
    admitted the M1, M2, and M3 money supply were indicating one thing while the
    economy was doing another.  There has been several times these guys have
    discovered the economy -- the real economy, not the 'California woo-woo'
    abstract of it represented in their naive fantasies -- got the best of them.

    Too bad they didn't learn their lesson:  the economy can be likened to
    Mother Nature.  You push Mother Nature too far in an unnatural direction,
    and Mother Nature is going to push back -- hard.  The economy does the same
    thing.  It is not "controllable" in the sense they think it can be
    controlled.  That is why using a medium of exchange of intrinsic,
    non-fluctuating value works so well, and has always worked so well when not
    subverted by con artists -- it flows with nature instead of against it.

    Message: 80305
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Global Economy
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:30:52

    FS> While you seem to think we "willing" as it were, abandoned it, I think
    FS> it would be more accurate to say that such a standard simply had to be
    FS> abandon as no longer workable in a global economic setting.

    Well, that's certainly what they wanted you to think.  But it worked quite
    well in a global setting for a long time when transportation and
    communications weren't anywhere near as fast as they are now.  There *was*
    the problem you mention -- that it was worth more elsewhere than it was here
    -- but that could easily have been dealt with by requiring payment in gold
    for what we were selling overseas.  The only reason there was a gold drain
    was because we were selling our goods overseas and accepting payment in
    other than gold.  Pounds Sterling, for example.  The introduction of our
    gold in their markets (overseas) drove down the value of Sterling, thus we
    were not getting value for value.

    Message: 80306
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Living Standard 1/3
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:31:57

    FS> Interesting premise but except for the last decade or so it is hard to
    FS> figure how the vast majority of us have been getting ripped off since
    FS> our standard of living has improved steadily since the abandonment of
    FS> the gold standard.  If you are going to claim that "we" have been
    FS> ripped off you need to account for the improvement evident in our lives
    FS> and show how that was a ripoff.

    For the last decade or so?  How about for the last 5.7 decades, since the
    gold standard was stolen from us, or the last 2.7 decades since the silver
    standard was stolen from us?

    When my father was drafted into the Army at the beginning of World War II,
    he was earning 12 dollars a week.  In the space of six months between the
    time he married my mother and received his draft notice, he managed to put
    the not inconsiderable sum of 49 dollars in the bank -- you'll note that is
    slightly over 4 weeks' pay.  Thus fully fifteen percent of his pay was not
    required for living expenses, and this was at the tail end of the Great
    Depression.  His job was equivalent to what might be called "semi-trained
    labor" today -- one step up from the ditch-digger.  Today the same kind of a
    job brings "minimum wage," or maybe up to five dollars an hour if you've
    been there quite a while.  How many couples do you know today who could
    survive on five dollars an hour, forty hours a week, without food stamps or
    other assistance?  And putting money away for the future?  Forget it!

    Message: 80307
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Living Standard 2/3
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:32:57

    He supported his family -- my mother, who was home pregnant with me, and had
    the normal attendant doctor bills -- in their own apartment, groceries,
    everything, on 12 bucks a week.  When he was drafted, it took two months for
    her allotment check to arrive, and when it finally arrived, the 49 dollars
    he left in the bank had just run out.

    Don't tell me our living standard is "better" today.  There are some
    technological improvements in our living standard, but today both parents
    have to work to support what living standard they have.  Even those yuppies
    you see running around in their BMW's and Audi's -- most of them are in the
    same fix as everyone else; every penny coming in is going out and darned
    little if any is going into savings.  Most of them are less than a month
    away from living on the street, and the thought of putting their kids
    through college is beyond consideration without grants and scholarships --
    hand-outs from others.  Fifty years ago -- when our money had already been
    debauched for seven years and threatened for two decades before that -- the
    average guy who was willing to work did at least twice or three times as
    well on thirty cents an hour as a minimum wage earner does today on 4.50 an
    hour.

    Oh, sure: we've got automobiles and indoor plumbing and stereo systems and
    the ubiquitous boob tube.  But automobiles in my father's day cost roughly
    $300 -- 25 weeks pay for my father.  Today they cost 12,000 frns for a

    Message: 80308
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Living Standard 3/3
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:34:27

    minimum mid-range model -- 67 weeks pay at 4.50/hour, more than twice the
    cost in labor.  Heating costs are ten times higher.  Other utilities --
    water, sewer, sanitation -- cost more per month than my father earned in
    five or six months.  Rent on a place to live costs more per month than my
    father earned in a year.

    Sure, we have a better living standard.  But we haven't "earned" it, we
    haven't "achieved" it -- we've borrowed it from the future.  We've borrowed
    it from our children and our children's children, and they are going to have
    to pay it back when we are gone with grinding poverty, because the bubble is
    going to burst.  I'm not talking here about the use of bank loans and credit
    cards and the like, though these have seriously exacerbated the problem.
    I'm talking about the debt money itself; the worthless frn -- the stuff we
    labor 40 hours a week for, only to be "loaned" our pay, by government, at
    interest, which our children are going to have to repay.

    I'd be willing to bet that without this worthless debt money, our living
    standard today would be ten times what it is now.  *Everyone's* living
    standard.  I'd be willing to bet the lowliest ditch-digger today would live
    in a 4-bedroom Victorian mansion, and that it wouldn't cost him more than
    six month's pay to buy it -- due to the greater innovations in construction
    technology available when people get rewarded for their industry and
    inventiveness without being ripped off by government banksters.

    Message: 80309
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Unprincipled
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:35:26

    FS> You are essentially inventing problems that are not of a concern to
    FS> anyone and then claiming the solution would be the gold standard.

    That *is* why we are in the mess we are in:  the problems of today, born of
    the criminal acts of the past, are "not of a concern to anyone".  There is
    no longer any desire or even belief in principled behavior; no concern for
    the desperate future into which we are being led giggling and slobbering, no
    worry about whether our children will live in liberty and prosperity or
    enslaved and under grinding poverty.

    Nor have I suggested a gold standard would be the solution.  I have stated
    that the theft of the gold and silver standard is the major primary root
    cause of the problem.  Correcting the problem is going to take a lot more
    than returning to a gold/silver standard; there are too many people out
    there whose greed and lack of principle and, frankly, inability and
    unwillingness to pursue a principled and proven economic course, makes them
    consider the bankster-contrived economic problems of today as "not of a
    concern to anyone."

    "There can be no self-government without self-discipline."  --Paul Harvey.
    This fraudulent economic system was established to wean our nation away from
    principled and self-disciplined behavior.  It has obviously succeeded.  We
    are about to lose self-government along with our "living standard."

    Message: 80310
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Powerful?
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:36:24

    FS> RE: No possible way this monetary system could work
    FS> Hmm, I guess becoming the Most powerful country on the earth since
    FS> abandoning the gold standard is further proof of how our monetary
    FS> system doesn't work??

    Hah!  Boy, are *you* living in a daydream!  Come back to reality for two
    seconds, Fred, and think about it:  *ARE* we "the most powerful country on
    the earth" today in any way except militarily?  (And that superiority is
    slipping fast.)

    Give me a break, Fred.  We are not the most powerful nation on earth today.
    Our decline from economic superiority started the day the gold standard was
    stolen from us in 1934.  We are a net debtor nation today.  We are no longer
    a Constitutional Republic; we are now a foreign-bankster-controlled federal
    republic just like all the other western nations.  In any event, the
    question of whether we or any other nation is "the most powerful on the
    earth" militarily *or* economically has been rendered moot by the total
    control of our economy by the world banking cartel.  Whoever is "most
    powerful" is whoever they want to *think* is most powerful at the moment.
    Lately it was our turn to be the tough guy in the Persian Gulf at their
    whim.  You won't win support for our fraudulent monetary system with *that*
    argument.

    Message: 80311
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: THE DOLLAR! 1/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:37:24

    FS> Don't you understand??   GOLD is just one more COMMODITY.

    Don't *you* understand, Fred?  Gold (and silver) are *not* "just one more
    commodity."  There is a difference:  they have stable value in the
    marketplace.  Their value is even *more* stable when they are minted into
    coins of specified value, regardless of what arbitrary 'value' government
    places upon them.

    Haven't you figured it out yet, Fred?  An American "dollar" is 25.8 grains
    of gold .9 fine and 371.25 grains of silver .9 fine.  That's *ALL* a
    "dollar" is.  There is nothing else which constitutes a "dollar."  When you
    talk about gold being worth more elsewhere than it is here, you are saying
    the "dollar" is worth more elsewhere than it is here.  If gold is worth more
    elsewhere, then American gold coins have GREATER PURCHASING POWER ELSEWHERE!

    Now, if you are dumb enough (and our gov't is, obviously) to give foreign
    interests gold and take back worthless paper or some other commodity of less
    intrinsic value in supposedly equal exchange, then of *course* you are going
    to have a "gold drain" that will destroy our economy.  And of *course* you
    will be able to say to the people "Gee, we have a gold drain; we're going to
    have to get rid of the gold standard."

    Message: 80312
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: THE DOLLAR! 2/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:38:14

    Well, guess what, Fred?  They lied to you.  THEY DIDN'T DO AWAY WITH THE
    GOLD STANDARD FOR FOREIGN EXCHANGE PAYMENTS!  THEY ONLY DID AWAY WITH IT FOR
    YOU AND ME AND THE REST OF THE AMERICANS WHO BOUGHT THEIR LIES HOOK, LINE,
    AND SINKER!

    Go read the Gold Reserve Act of 1934.  It specifically EXEMPTS CURRENCY from
    its provisions.  Yet, thanks to Roosevelt's packed Supreme Court, they won't
    redeem frns in gold or silver when you and I take them to the bank.  BUT
    THEY WILL WHEN A FOREIGN GOV'T WANTS TO REDEEM THEM!  -- that is, if our
    gov't can't convince the foreign gov't to accept 16 times that much foreign
    aid in frns instead.  And usually it does convince them.  Are you beginning
    to get the picture?

    This information is my opinion based upon my research and is expressed here
    as an exercise of my inherited and unalienable right to political free
    speech.  I do not give legal advice.

    Message: 80313
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: What to do?
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:39:13

    RW> As far as a conspiracy by the ruling class against the working
    RW> class...when hasn't there been one?  And the working class always has
    RW> their conspiracy against the ruling class.  It never ends.  What can I
    RW> do to help?

    The first thing you can do is get out of your bank -- all banks.  Every one
    frn you *don't* deposit deprives them of 9,000 dollars plus interest in your
    real labor.  If you do not have a bank account you are no longer subject to
    the Bank Secrecy Act, which courts have ruled makes banks "agents in the
    government surveillance of the private financial affairs of citizens," and
    which obviates the need for a search warrant to examine your private
    financial records.

    Get out of all credit, which brings one under the 'Law Merchant'
    jurisdiction (equity).  Find out what else you have to do to become a
    natural individual at law instead of a juristic person existing at the
    pleasure of gov't.

    Join an association such as the NCBA and put your money where your mouth is
    in support of very effective court challenges to unlawful gov't.  I can mail
    you literature if you want it.

    Message: 80314
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Social Director?!!
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 07:40:48

    RW> The money for the 'switchboard' for the welfare recipients would
    RW> already be there.  I was just going on the theory that 50 can live as
    RW> cheaply as 10.

    They can't.  Nor can 50 own property as efficiently as one.

    RW> Also stop building the B1 bomber, use the money for social programs
    RW> instead.

    Government funded social programs -- i.e., social programs funded by
    unlawful robbery from the labor of the people -- is what got us into this
    mess.  If we want legitimate government and not a corporate management
    system to the benefit of the banksters, we need to stop gov't involvement in
    matters which do not lawfully concern government.  Government has no lawful
    business in "social programs."

    RW> What this country needs is a good social director, someone who has
    RW> 'spirit' and one who can makes us smile.

    What this country needs is considerably fewer "social directors" paid for
    out of the labor of a few of the people for the benefit of those who don't
    produce.  Legitimate government -- gov't which minds its own business of
    governing and stays out of mine -- would make me smile.

    Message: 80315
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann - 1/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:30:57

    > You can dish it out but can't take it. Remember, you said of
    > one of my post that is was baloney.  I think you like to argue
    > for argument's sake. Talk about no point.

            I know I said yesterday's post was my last to you on the subject,
    but...
            What I refuse to take is your name-calling.  I responded to one of
    Felix's posts with "Baloney!", but have done nothing of the kind with any of
    yours.

    > I think you like to argue for argument's sake. Talk about no
    > point.

            Were this the case I'd still be discussing the topics of substance
    with you.
            Ann, it is no use trying to make any point with you.  As soon as
    someone makes a substantive refutation of something you've said, you change
    the subject.
            In this case, rather than reply to my points, you went to a third
    party and accused me of being a liar.  And when I accuse you of this, you
    again ignore the point and respond as you did yesterday.

    Message: 80316
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann - 2/2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:31:18

            Your name-calling is a clear violation of the ules, but since it
    is directed toward a SysOp the violation will likely go unpunished simply so
    all of us SysOps -- Mighty and Cub alike -- can avoid charges of censorship.
     That's fine with me.  I expected to take a few unjustified shots when I
    agreed to be a Cub Sysop.  It does, however, make it easier to understand
    why Cliff goes on those occasional Maybe-I-should-take-the-system-down
    binges.
            At least most of Apollo's users, when they feel it necessary to
    attack another personally, go after their victim directly rather than
    attempting to draw in others by saying, "Have you noticed what a scum sucker
    So-and-so is?"

    Message: 80317
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul - Certainty
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:31:41

    > How can you say that noone, even Earvin Johnson (the magic has
    > gone out) knows how he contracted HIV, when he himself has
    > stated that he got it through heterosexual contact?

            I don't believe Magic (The "Magic" has no more gone out than the '69
    Mets will ever be any less than "Amazing.") has said any such thing, Paul.
    I believe he or a spokesman has alluded to having had "unprotected sex," but
    I'm not sure the issue of what kind of sex that was has been directly
    settled.
            As I said yesterday, it seems very, very likely that Magic's HIV
    contamination came from heterosexual activity, but I don't think anyone can
    PROVE, and therefore say with any finality, how it occurred.
            If you can cite quotes and sources, I'll be happy to recant.

    Message: 80318
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod-NEY!  Rod-NEY!
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:32:17

    I have to agree with Nick, Rod.  Sometimes you roam far afield, but when you
    get to the point it's been well and effectively made.

    Message: 80319
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mr. Sysop
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:43:26

    Lessee. There are how many HIV positive folks out there ? So far EVERYONE
    who test positive with HIV will die. I have heard there are 2 million cases.
    Lessee, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that 2 million casualties is
    going to cost a lot of money. And if you think you aren't going to pay for
    it, then you are hiding your head in the sand.

    Message: 80320
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archi/Soviet Gold
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:48:27

    Perhaps the Soviets have noticed you can't eat gold and farmers are smarter
    than that. They own the real gold.

    Message: 80321
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archi/Inflation
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 08:53:11

    A little inflation is a good thing. Deflation or no inflation is bad.
    Excessive inflation is bad. Therefore a gold standard is ludicrous.
    The trick is to keep the inflation rate to a reasonable level. I would argue
    that we have managed to do that over the last several years.

    Message: 80322
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch-Lemme Get This
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:03:28

    ...Straight

            So, if I understand you correctly, the Banksters (An amusing and
    alliterative term.  I like it, although you shouldn't construe that to mean
    I think it's valid.), while sitting on the world's gold and silver
    resources, have foisted all this fake money on us and have no expectation of
    payment in any kind of real money.  Their payoff -- the REAL payoff -- will
    come when the Mother Nature of the Economic World decides to strike back,
    causing our counterfeit economy to collapse.
            The Banksters will then truly be in charge because they'll have the
    only true source of wealth, the world's gold and silver supplies.
            Additionally, in order to accomplish this charade, they have
    completely subverted our form of government.
            The only way to protect one's self from the coming catastrophe is to
    have one's own gold and silver reserves.

    It that it, basically?

    Message: 80323
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Arch-Stand of Living
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:04:02

    > Sure, we have a better living standard.  But we haven't
    > "earned" it, we haven't "achieved" it -- we've borrowed it from
    > the future.

    If have more that we did in the past, as you've agreed, and are
    simultaneously paying more for it than we were, as you've also agreed, how
    is that you can say anything has changed?  Our money would have been
    devalued only if we had more, but were paying the same amount, which is
    exactly what you seem to be advocating.

    Message: 80324
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill on calling
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:30:28

    Show me the post where I called you a lier. I told Cat that you thought it
    was OK to lie to the kids. That's all.
    I had to laugh when you said .. " As soon as someone makes a substantive
    refutation of something you've said ...."  When I make a 'substantive
    refutation of something you said - you say "Baloney"!

    Message: 80325
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill the sysop
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:33:47

    This board belongs to Cliff. He is my sysop, not you. Don't threaten me.
    If you cannot take what you dish out, then step down and let someone else
    take over. I told you I didn't call you or anyone else names. Show me or get
    off the pot! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80326
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:35:15

    Watch it Green - telling the little cub sysop he has his head in the sand.
    You'll end up in trouble. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80327
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon on your 2
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 09:36:48

    Good god Gordon, I already said/answered all of that and don't intend to go
    into it again. In fact, no more AIDS talk from me. Lets go on to something
    else. OK? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80328
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 10:14:37

    I didn't see where you answered *all* of that.  Though I have to say you
    gave us enough information to make a fair *guess* at what your answers would
    have been.

    My guess at your answer to the last question is "yes".

    Message: 80329
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mr Lantern
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 12:52:18

    Re:  My head in the sand....

            I *KNOW* I am paying for it you Mr. Bulb.  This is what I am griping
    about.... I should not have to pay for OTHER peoples immorality!  This is
    why I think the media is hyping the AIDS virus.  To get MORE of my TAX
    dollar money swung into AIDS research, even if that means dropping other
    needed research. And, they wish to do this with PUBLIC support by
    overstating the facts.

            All these millions of AIDS people ain't going to hit the hospitals
    at once... it is spread out over time, and the system will absorb them.
    Maybe the worst violators of drugs and multiple sex partner people will die
    off, and the numbers will shrink in time.  Thus leaving the clean, moral
    people to inherit the earth.

            I myself do not feel THREATENED by the AIDS virus.  Do you?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80330
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Cub Sysop
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 13:05:18

    I was under the distinct impression it was the Big Sysop, not the Cub Sysop
    that I made the remark to.

    Message: 80332
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sysop/Paying
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 13:09:24

    Re: do I feel threatened ?
    Only when the toilet seat I just sat on is wet.

    Message: 80333
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 15:32:45

    Oh, one other question...  but not about AIDS!  You mentioned a couple of
    women friends who never used to sleep around, but now they've started to.  I
    found this interesting, because they are bucking the trend of the last
    several years for people to sleep around less.  Even before AIDS came along,
    people were starting to get nervous about herpes.  (Does anyone remember
    herpes?)

    I'm sure a bad economy has a depressing effect on sexual activity as well.
    We've all noticed how low those hemlines are.

    A trend is just a trend, and doesn't mean that every individual is going to
    follow it -- as your friends obviously haven't.  So I was curious to know if
    these women's conversion to sleeping around was attributable to some
    particular circumstance in their own lives.  The obvious one that came to
    mind was that perhaps they used to be happily married and/or idealistic, and
    now they've become dissatisfied or disillusioned with a steady relationship.

    Message: 80334
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: News Today
    Subject: JM/Newspapers (1/2)
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 15:33:40

    On this trip I saw mainly French and British newspapers, though there was
    also the Herald Tribune (as I mentioned).  But I also saw copies of Italian
    and German newspapers lying around, and even without reading them it isn't
    hard to see what's taking up headline space on the front page.  So my
    perception was based on a reasonable cross-section of newspapers from
    Western European countries.

    Naturally European newspapers have a great deal more to say about their own
    domestic affairs than an American newspaper would, and in this case it's
    fair to point out that Yugoslavia is a lot closer to those countries than it
    is to the U.S.  Still, Yugoslavia seems a moderately long way away from,
    say, Britain or France.  I know this is a subjective impression, but it's
    based partly on distance (Europe operates to smaller scales than the U.S.),
    on the existence of a couple of countries in between, the relative political
    isolation of Yugoslavia as a nonaligned Communist country and non-member of
    the EC, and so forth.

    The distance of Nicaragua from the U.S. is a good comparison.  I don't know
    how much coverage European newspapers gave of the Nicaraguan war, but I
    would say that European coverage of the Yugoslavian events is better than
    American coverage of the Nicaraguan events.  Both U.S. and European
    newspapers like to cover domestic affairs in detail, plus any major world
    events and anything unusual or (of course) sensational.  The real difference
    seems to be the greater patchiness of foreign coverage in U.S. newspapers.

    Message: 80335
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: News Today
    Subject: JM/Newspapers (2/2)
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 15:34:42

    As an example, most Western European newspapers provide detailed daily
    coverage of significant political events in the U.S., but whole days can go
    by when some American newspapers do little or nothing to return the favor --
    even considering "Western Europe" as a sort of collective unit.

    It isn't just a question of distance.  Coverage is uneven.  We see little
    about Uruguay or even Honduras, although they're on our own side of the
    world.  There's more about the Philippines, say.  We see a fair amount about
    U.S. allies or military rivals, or ex-rivals, the breakup of the Communist
    empire, the Middle East, and so forth.  India's too big to be avoided
    altogether, but Dahomey isn't.  There always seemed to be a lot more about
    the old West Germany than there was about France or Italy, for some reason.
    And we hear a lot about Japan, but little of it tells us what's going on
    inside Japan.  Most of it is about trade arguments *with* Japan.  And you
    can't hope to keep even slightly in touch with what's happening in Greece or
    Australia or Iceland through a U.S. newspaper.  I think European newspapers
    display a better sense of global community, of the fact that there *are*
    other countries outside themselves.  It's not just war coverage, but
    reporting what's going on in general.  Not that any newspaper can cover
    every country in the world every day, but they can do it in rotation.  Yet
    it's only very recently that U.S. newspapers noticed there was anything at
    all going on in Indonesia, because some Americans got beaten up there.  How
    many people noticed that there's no longer a place called Burma?  And when's
    the last time we heard about *anything* that happened in Mongolia?

    Message: 80336
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JMatlock/Aids/Promis
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 16:20:41

    As far as measures of promiscuityare concerned, I have heard on more then
    one occassion that a great many gay hangouts for promiscuous sex, i.e.,
    Bathhouses, have gone out of business.  That alone would indicate a shift in
    lifestyle away from promiscuity.  I have also heard that the "spread" of
    aids had slowed quite a bit amounst gays which would also indicate a change
    in behaviour patterns.  I would think it safe to say that there *has* been a
    change in the behaviour of gays in response to the AIDS epidemic.

    s

    Message: 80337
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Righteous Peopl
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 16:23:59

    Can someone who does not believe in GOD be a righteous person?

    Message: 80338
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Aids research
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 16:29:12

    Ann, Mike, I still have seen no indication that any large sums of money have
    been pulled off of other research.  Nor have I seen any indication that
    there is some terrible repercussions of whatever the current levels of
    spending are for all the various diseases.  In my view, much of the
    "research" spending on the various diseases is political anyways and from my
    own experiance with research funding and spending, the vast bulk of research
    money is wasted on non-productive work intended mainly to keep the
    researchers employed.  Particularly research that is gvt funded.

    Message: 80339
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Aids no Effect
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 16:31:46

    Good point Gordon.!~

    Message: 80340
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Medium of Exch/Arch
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 16:43:12

    I still see no evidence of the "gold standard" working "so well" compared to
    how much better the average man was able to live AFTER we went OFF the gold
    standard.  You seem more concerned with presevring the fortunes of the
    wealthy thru a "gold standard" then providing a robust economy to the
    masses.  A "stable" ecomony with everyone at the poverty level is not my
    idea of nirvana but could easily be achieved with a "gold standard".  I
    remain on the opinion that you are promoting a gold standard when what you
    are really desirous of is a decent government.  If we could get a decent gvt
    the gold standard would not be needed.

    Message: 80341
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Lantern's wet seat
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 17:59:15

            Do you have any cuts on your.. bottom.. that would cause you to
    worry?  You could try drying the seat first if you feel threatened or go
    elsewhere.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80342
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 18:50:41

    Yes Green, or switch to an electric shaver.  :)

    Message: 80343
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archi' reserve
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:05:44

    So, Mr. Archimedes, are you going to get a federally-issued license in order
    to operate HAM radio gear?  Why don't you just power it on yourself and
    refuse to enter an equity relationship?

    I'm sorry, but your explanation of how we can personally and individually
    owe for money received for goods and services received doesn't make sense.

    Oh, and about not "owning" land -- when did land transfers become invalid?
    Should I be able to do a title search, find the last "legal" transaction on
    a piece of land, and therefor determine the "true current owner" -- or did
    the fact that the transfer was "paid" with paper money automatically make
    the owner be the federal reserve?

    Message: 80344
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Russian gold
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:08:06

    If they are sitting on so much gold, then why didn't the World Bank or some
    other minion of the New World Order demand it in turn for 'hard currency' ?

    Message: 80345
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:27:35

    Re:  I love these guys who think AIDS is not going affect them.

    Did I say "affected?"  I meant "infected."

    Message: 80346
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:29:12

    Re:  If I recall correctly, you predicted our hospitals were going to
    be full of G.I.s from the Iraq war... along with many thousands of body
    bags.

    Our Mr. Lantern is a real "doomsday" type guy huh?

    Message: 80347
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 20:35:13

    Re:  I do think that an immoral person is one that believes that people
    deserve to die because of their sexual behavior.

    Are you talking about abortion?

    Message: 80348
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/Righteous
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 21:24:55

    Sure ! I am !

    Message: 80349
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Sysop's wet arse
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 21:28:13

    This conversation has definitely taken a turn for the worse. I refuse to
    discuss the quality of my um... bottom ...

    Message: 80350
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix/body count
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 21:31:49

    If you enter a war expecting not to suffer casualties, you are a fool. A
    wise man counts the cost before entering into a situation. Fools rush in
    where angels fear to tread.

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    Subject:WAR

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I hope peace and learning come from the rift between several people on this
     2:board.
     3:
     4:A primary reason I took my vacation from this board is that I was going
     5:through a lot of internal changes and I had not yet landed.
     6:
     7:This happens every so often.  I had been having nightly discussions with a
     8:friend and we talked about everything thus my understanding of many subjects
     9:broadened somewhat.
    10:end

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     1:if they happened all at the same
    16:moment.                              -Rod
    17:end

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    Message: 80349
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Sysop's wet arse
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 21:28:1

    Message: 80350
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix/body count
    Date:

    Message: 80351
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thanks
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 23:00:52

    Thank you for liking my message.

    Message: 80352
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: WAR
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 23:05:37

    I hope peace and learning come from the rift between several people on this
    board.

    A primary reason I took my vacation from this board is that I was going
    through a lot of internal changes and I had not yet landed.

    This happens every so often.  I had been having nightly discussions with a
    friend and we talked about everything thus my understanding of many subjects
    broadened somewhat.

    Message: 80353
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 23:06:45

    Felix Cat:
                            Re: Safe from AIDS

                Do you or your friends go to a
    No one is safe from the dreaded AIDS.

    I wonder what they were talking about in Europe in 1348?  Do you know?

    Go to the country, those dwellers are usually the last to succumb to
    the current hysteria, disease wise.  Then think of dying quietly in
    your sleep but think of dying because until you accept it, it will be
    a threat.  By the way, AIDS patients usually die quietly in their
    sleep.  I'm sure my last moments in my physical form will be very
    quiet, even if a battle is raging wild.  Death is better than all of
    the physical climaxes in the world, if they happened all at the same
    moment.                              -Rod

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    Message: 80353
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 23:06:45

    Felix Cat:
                            Re: Safe from AIDS

                Do you or your friends go to a
    No one is safe from the dreaded AIDS.

    I wonder what they were talking about in Europe in 1348?  Do you know?

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    Message: 80354
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archmedes
    Date: 12/05/91  Time: 23:13:56

    I will carefull read your message to me and comment later.  Thanks.

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    Mail to Zak Woodruff
    Date: 12/01/91  Time: 00:09:08

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     1:I've been meaning to thank you for your kind welcome of me.  Thank you.
     2:
     3:If Ann is kicking the nicotene habit perhaps she is going through a lot of
     4:physical as well as emotional changes.  Sometimes she smacks a point with
     5:the common sense portion of her brain.  Anyway, tis a painful disagreement.
     6:
     7:Good fortune.
     8:                                        Rod
     9:end

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    Goodbye, Rod Williams
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