### Apollo BBS Archive - April 23, 1990

    Message: 6227
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: X-ians vs. Atheists
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 01:55:35

    OK, OK, we're all hypocrites.  Now let's get on with it.

    Message: 6228
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Last....
    Subject: all hypocrites
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:53:03

    Not me: I'm Harpocrates.

    Message: 6229
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger on Rod
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 05:15:01

    "Rod is honest. He tells it like it is." Roger Mann, mess. 6223.
     I guess that puts you squarely in the atheist camp, huh?

    Message: 6230
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul/last
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:58:44

    Re: the last post to Roger .... I am not a athiest, yet I see that Rod is an
    honest man and tells it like it is .... ' his 'is' and I see nothing wrong
    in that. We have all made our choices on our belief's and we all think we
    are right and we are - right for us.
    THE TRUE FACTS ARE ...
    None of us know any of this for sure ... you have not seen any proof of God,
    Jesus, the Bible, etc. etc. Rod does not know for sure these do not exist
    and that the Bible isn't the entire truth. We all gather information and
    then choose. Sometimes we let other's - I.E. our parents, our friends
    influence us, but the final dicision is ours alone. All religions and
    athiests make and have good points - so do the Jews, Moslems, Buddaists,
    Taoists, Hindus et al.
    I also do not see where Rod is so bad trying to convert Christians to
    athiestism anymore than Christians trying to convert him. Both are trying to
    make the other 'see the light' so to speak. I NEVER understood why the
    people come down on him so bad on this board over the years because he
    states what is truth to him! Yes, he has came down on Christians before and
    pretty bad - but he's not doing this now. Why not just 'converse'?
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6231
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul on Rog
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 08:01:11

    I don't think Rod is an atheist. From what he said, he sounds more like an
    agnostic.

    Message: 6232
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: After death
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 09:25:47

    Ms. O'Hare is absolutely nothing before death, too.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 6233
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 10:20:55

            How about athiestic Russia? They killed millions.

    Message: 6234
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gary/O'Hair
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:24:43

    Any reason, or are you just bitchy this morning ?

    Message: 6235
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Sandy/Russia
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 14:02:30

      They killed in the name of another faith, communism, which is not
    altogether different from religion. Atheism is simply a lack of theism, it
    does not motivate agression against others. An agressive theism can motivate
    some to act in self-defense against it, but this is only a reaction to a
    threat.
      See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 6236
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:34:10

            I thought we were talking strickly about religious beliefs. I did
    not realize political beliefs were included in the conversations.
    Communism promots a non-belief in a god; communism wants the hearts and
    souls of its people. I would say that communism is an atheistic government,
    and a very aggressive one at that. I would also say that an atheist can feel
    threatened and would have the ability and motivation to act in self-defense.

    Message: 6237
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: `last several
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:59:02

    Good posts, points taken.
    You're blind and historically incorrect if you judge Christians or other
    religious sects to be the only harbingers of war and witch hunting.
    How convenient it is to forget Stalin, Hitler and Atilla eh ?
    Infererring that killing for purely religious reasons is the only
    inexcusable killing is also historically and morally wrong.
    Mass killing for ANY reason is wrong. Political, Religious or otherwise.
    Politics are a reflection in DIRECT proportion to the moral health of
    a nation. If the nation is full of me-firsts, grab it while you cans
    and neer do wells, you'll find their leaders are just like 'em.
    ...and like we're already starting to see, they pass laws that make
    what was once wrong, right...because the masses don't want to be wrong.
    Yep, sit there comfortable in knowing that within the next 5 years you
    will see this nation and its people go rapidly down the poop shute.
    Of course, that's how I'LL SEE IT....some of you will undoubtably see
    it as "progression" and "good". No doubt at all. More abortions,
    legalizing drugs, legalizing gambling, less and less ability to
    see "justice" served in a legal system that will (and already does)
    permit petty crime and by its sluggishness alone, alleviate punishment
    for those who commit "minor crimes".
    Fortunately or not, by the time you recognize it, and you *will*,
    it'll be when you're being flushed down covered in it like everyone else.
    Christians, Atheists, Agnostics and anything else with two feet and
    a head.

    Message: 6238
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Where'll U be?
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 17:08:29

    Ann makes a bold claim about Christians *NEVER* seeing any *proof*
    of their religion or God existing.
    Well, if all you are looking with is your eyes, you will remain blind.
    Fortunately for me, I can tell the difference between what is right
    and what is wrong...and it doesn't rely soley upon what I see with me
    eyes. To state that the only things that EXIST can be tactile, smelt,
    seen etc..is to be truly blind. Science is a name given to the use of
    those senses to discover stuff we don't know and explain that which we
    don't understand. When Science cannot explain something or define it,
    the Scientist(s) attempt to place their own values and ideas upon it.
    (BTW, it is commonly known as THEORIZING).
    Scientists have yet to explain everything about the human body, or
    for that fact, how any living thing works from day one to day end.
    Yet they EXIST. Love is another one. SOme claim chemical changes etc
    produce this feeling..._fine_ but what *STARTED* it?
    You can feel the multifacteted efects of love..but you cannot condense
    it into words, measurements or even see it always. So, someone like
    Ann, who needs to see something with their eyes before it exists, truly
    miss out on life.
    Life can be as material and plastic as you want it.

    Message: 6239
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: where'll u be
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 20:59:39

    If you are really thinking, you will realize the only reasonable
    answer is "I don't know". To look at one's belief and say "I could
    be wrong" or "She could be right" What this leads to is a tolerance
    of others views and having the benefit of other's experiences and
    points of view. Dogmatism, pure and simple, is not the way to find
    truth. The only way is to search. And the only way to search is with
    humility about one's own views. For example, we in the Western world
    have a religion that is a win/lose religion. You're with God or you're
    in Hell. Some religions, such as Shinto, have no God at all but do have
    a reverence beauty and ancestors. Whose to say they aren't right. What
    about Buddhism ? Those folks do manifest a great tranquility and peace
    that seems almost transcendent. What about Islam ? What about Hinduism ?
    What about Judaism ?

    Message: 6240
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: science and religion
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:46:46

    "I think the reverence for uncertainty is the difference between a creative
    visionary and a fanatic.  A fanatic looks for something that will stamp out
    the uncertainty.  The creative person acknowledges the uncertainty."

       -- Peter Senge

    Message: 6241
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: atheism
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:55:52

    Rod is an atheist, as am I, and he does a service.  It is all too easy to
    forget, while one is conversing with relatively moderate believers, the
    damage to the human psyche, and indeed, to whole societies and
    civilizations, which fanatical religion has done over the aeons.

    Message: 6243
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:14:38

    The only dammage done is that of ignorance and ignorance that
    is forced by deliberate omission.
    For every count of dammage done by religion, an equally heinious
    and dammaging account can be pointed out on the horrors done
    by atheists.
    Instead of looking in your search for all of the bad ins something, Mark,
    you should also stop to check out the beauty and splendor.
    Without this in your posts, you present a very bigoted and
    unbalanced viewpoint. Without this balance to witness, your posts
    read like the person writin them isn't searching or looking to
    answer something..but rather to do what I mentioned in previous posts.
    All of the people who bash religion bash it on the grounds of either
    they fail to understand or they think it's doing more harm than good.
    While (A) is certainly understandable [ I've been there ] , reason
    (B) isn't. Reason B takes us back to witch hunts and ignorance.
    Reason B is touted by those who really are reason (A).
    Rod Williams once (and repeatedly) said to me;
    "The Bible is a book written over 2000 years ago, it's out-dated and
    behind the times and can't possibly hold any truth in today's society"
    Funny, it says in there that you will be persecuted for your faith
    by those who fear and donot understand your happiness.
    If the Bible is so outdated, why does it contain so much truth?
    People are so quick to point out what they believe to be errors and
    such in the bible..I read through that little booklet of Jim Lippards
    and went through it with a Bible scholar about 4 years ago.
    I remember that much of Jim's book was based on his assumptions.
    The content was thin and the so called errors were mere assertions
    on his behalf because the writings in the Bible didn;t clarify passages
    enough to his liking. There was something that stick in my mind over
    the time I spent doing a little research...and that was how could
    someone go through all of this and miss it all?
    It was clear that the person claiming the bible was packed full of lies
    had to have read something totally different. But they didn;t
    read it at all...that is where they failed. But that's O.K.....
    My faith wasn't shaken, disturbed or even shadow cast...I went there
    in hopes to find the errors and search through the Hebrew with someone
    who could read it. It was my excuse to go over some fine details and
    gain some hidden insight and errors in the story.

    All this is but a waste of time. Words that will not be understood.
    My point in all of this boils down to this much;

    Since *none* of you are qualified to say you don't have a religion,
    just shut up already (tm).
    Stop finding excuses to trash and persecute and take a long look in the
    mirror at yourself..a member of the human race.
    The same ones who, religion or none, do all and more of these horrors
    you keep blaming only one group for. Wake up and smell the coffee.

    Message: 6245
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: posts
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:39:50

    Damn, there are a lot of good posts here.  It is easy to see who is
    bull$hitting and who is not.

    It is easy to spot an open mind and see who is HONEST.

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1269
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 01:57:26

    Do you mean last as in my message 1266, or last as in the message 1267 which
    somebody wrote and then zapped?

    Message: 1270
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: zak
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 10:54:12

            The Official Transcript of Proceedings before the United States
    Department of Education occured in 1984. The hearings took place in Seattle,
    Washington; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Kansas City, Missouri; Phoenix,
    Arizona; Concord, New Hampshire; Orlando, Florida; Washington D.C.
            Federal Experimental School Programs are still being created and
    implemented in the school system to date. Even some of the older programs
    are still being used.
            I object very strenuously to your accusations that I so not know
    what I am talking about, that I am using outdated information to support my
    beliefs, that I am grasping for straws .
            I have been involved in the school issue since 1975. I have read
    many books, read school books, talked to some teachers, talked to college
    students training to become teachers, talked to parents who were having
    problems with their school systems, tried to talk to school boards. My
    experience in the matter goes far. My belief in what I am doing is founded
    on what I have discovered. I thought very hard before I made my decision to
    home school and have been grieved many times by my family. I am treading on
    a lonely road at present.
            I am incensed when some young kid quickly looks up a date about a
    program, hollers 'OUTDATED!", and proceeds to undermine what I have studied
    and experienced for so many years. Get off your High and Mighty horse, quit
    ideolizing and theorizing.
            You had better go back to your school and retake that course you
    missed in Manners and Respect.

            I was in school too. I was never told, by ANYONE, "Don't talk to
    your parents about your problems." Just because I did not experience it and
    you did not experience it does not mean the problem does not exist.
            My so-called-evidence was presented to you in good faith. I took the
    time out to post just a few of the incindents that have occured in the
    public school systems throughout the country. Forgive me if I could not read
    your mind and post whatever 'evidence' you felt needed posted to satisfy
    your contrary mind.

    Message: 1272
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: zak
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:05:24

            You are right - " no high school student with half a mind is going
    to voluntarily make him/herself a mental puppet that sucks up ....."
            What about the students that do not have 1/2 a mind?
            What about the students who do have a 1/2 a mind and do not
    voluntarily make themselves a mental puppet and, in doing so, must submit to
    public ridicule in front of their friends in class by the teacher?
            What about the Kindergarden childeren?
            What about the 1st - 8th graders who are subjected to the same
    federal public experimental school programs that the high schoolers are?

    Message: 1273
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: zak
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:08:04

            Who said anything about the PUHD paying bonuses .......
    The local school systems are.
    The local school systems want the bucks handed out by the federal governemt.

    Message: 1274
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: school/kids
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:27:26

    I just had two kids go through the Scottsdale school system. One of them
    brings all their problems to us, the other is independent as all get out.
    The school system had nothing to do with that. They are just two different
    people who need to be treated differently.

    Message: 1275
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Roger/last
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:41:09

            You must have taken an active interest in your children's school
    curriculum and in the school board. It is nice to hear a parent state as
    confidently as you that the school system had absolutly no influence on your
    children as they were growing up.

    Message: 1276
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Saney/1275
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:12:47

    I didn't say that the system had absolutely no influence. I said that I
    thought that the children's personalities and parents have a larger effect.
    Of course, you have to get off your duff and get interested in your kids,
    go to school functions, talk to teachers, talk to your kids about school.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 606
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Trivia
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:02:14

    Yo, Daryl.  Have you seen The Last Temptation of Christ?  I am interested in
    finding out if you even know what you are talking about.

    Message: 607
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: religious stuff
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:05:28

    I don't mind religious talk on "my" sig.  As long as eventually (as in
    within a week or two) it comes back to films and videos.

    By the way...

         Jesus never had sex.
         Jesus never masturbated.
         Jesus never had a wet dream.
         Jesus never thought about women in a sexual way.
         Jesus didn't have sexual urges.
         Jesus didn't have any urges.
         Jesus was morally superior in every way.
         Hallelujah.

    Message: 608
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Komedy
    Subject: Zakey Baby/last
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:02:31

    So, when are you opening your chruch? I'd go. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 609
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Komedy
    Subject: Jesus
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:48:37

    No wonder he didn't mind dying young.

    Message: 610
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jack Flash...
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:43:53

            Thanks for the answer on 'The Handmaid's Tale' by Margaret Atwood.
    I assume you then have read the book?  Have you seen the movie?  The movie
    for us left so many unanswerd questions, we are hopeing the book will fill
    in the gaps....  As to what went wrong in 'Gilead'.

                                    cliff-

    Message: 611
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SysOp Speaks
    Subject: This SIG
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:47:24

            I thought this was a 'FILm and Video' SIG....  It is looking more
    like a 'Religion' sig???  Do you wish me to rename it?  If not, move that
    religion talk elsewhere.

                                    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 612
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jack/Atwood
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:48:21

            Thanks Mr. Flash!
    For some reason the name Margaret Atwood sounds familiar. I am going down to
    the book stores at Metro Center and look up some of the books she has
    written. I want to read 'The Handmaid's Tale'; I found the movie intriguing.

    Message: 613
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: s,l,and v
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:23:43

    I called Wherehouse - it will be out on the 25th.  YEAH!!
    I would suggest a GT but there is already the shoot-out GT on the 28th, and
    I have a final project to work on while I am working on another production
    this week (Billy's Iguana which is really weird.  Peter P, if you're out
    there, you should go see it.  It's only 2 bucks at the Lyceum 965-6447).

    Wow it's 2
    2
    2 plugs in one!

    Message: 614
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: In Living Color
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:49:29

    The first two episodes were hilarious.  The "Wrath of Farrakhan" Star Trek
    skit was particularly amusing.

    Message: 615
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod/605
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:06:55

    First of all, Rod, given that the first four books of the New Testament are
    a record of Jesus' earthly life, and given that a relationship like that
    would be a very important part of Jesus' life, then it most certainly would
    have been recorded at least ONCE by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

    Secondly, for Mary of Magdala to be Jesus' lover would mean that Jesus would
    have committed adultery in the process, which is a sin. But the Bible
    clearly speaks of Jesus as having no sin.

    There is evidence in the Bible of Mary of Magdala being a follower of Jesus.
    There is no evidence in the Bible of Mary of Magdala being Jesus' mistress.
    Given the evidence on one side, and lack of evidence on the other side, how
    can you attempt to even debate the issue further?

    When a prostitute was brought to Jesus for the purpose of{ judging her
    sinfulness, he rebuked her accusers by saying "Let he who is without sin
    cast the first stone." After they all dropped their stones and left, Jesus
    did not condemn her, but said "GO AND SIN NO MORE." I'm sure Mary of
    Magdala, having once been a prostitute, knew Jesus' position on the matter.

    Too many people perceive "love" as having only one definition (i.e., the
    sexual act). How wonderful to truly know the many different types of love!

    Message: 616
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:08:33

    I must admit, Zak, no, I have not seen the movie. I have read significant
    portions of the script verbatim, however. If you would be willing to cover
    the cost of rental, perhaps I would take a look at it.

    Message: 617
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Zak/607
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:17:05

    Zak, I found it interesting to notice, that five of your seven sentences
    about Jesus involved sex or sexual urges. I find it interesting that so many
    on here seem to be so interested in the sexual life (or lack, thereof) of
    Jesus. Jesus felt temptation to sin (his human nature) but never submitted
    to it (his Deity). Christ had a much more important mission in this world
    than to "pop a few babes."

    I also find it interesting to see the incredulousness of some of the users
    when facing the issue of Jesus' sinlessness. Yes, he was human. He could be
    tempted. But he was also the fullness of Deity dwelling in bodily form. He
    could resist completely where others could only fail repeatedly, because of
    his Deity.

    Message: 618
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff.../this SIG
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:20:10

    An attempt was made to move this discussion to the PUBlic SIG, and it
    failed. Apparently the users are perfectly happy discussing the topics at
    hand here. But I guess when the sysop has spoken, the sysop has spoken, eh?

    Perhaps you guys could move this conversation over to the PUBlic SIG. My
    $tatus runs out in about 9 days, and I won't be able to continue reading
    your posts on here after that.

    Message: 619
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Living Color
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:21:57

    I found the first show rather lacking. I missed the second show. I'll try to
    catch the next one.

    Does anyone here watch "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" on 8?

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1780
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Steve(n)
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:10:01

         Let me get this straight:

         Brophy is a great school.  Brophy representatives told you that it was
    the 2nd or 4th best school in the nation.  You suspect that they are lying
    about this, though.
         Why would a great school lie about itself?

    Message: 1781
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Night-Life
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:50:16

    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

    Message: 1782
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:17:34

    Speaking in tongues again ol boy ?

    Message: 1783
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Zak / $50.00
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:20:07

    You'd do that for Fifty bucks eh?
    Well now, that might be worth it considering the News Station would
    undoubtably pay me $50.00 for the scoop before hand...and the
    profits from selling the video to every sleeze hole in the
    valley would most likely pay my way through a house renovation...
    But alas.... I have morals...and they're making me bankrupt!

    ;-)

    SPOILER: Plant tongue firmly in cheek.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 64944
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/turnabout
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:02:41

         Yes, there were Christians around during Arizona's early settlement
    days.  But they really aren't a unique aspect of Arizona culture, are they?
    Whereas the Indians...I need go no further, because I assume you have a
    good idea what the difference is.

    Message: 64945
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:04:15

         So basically, you turned to Christianity because you were desperate for
    something to fill the voids in your life.  This void-filling phase in your
    life seems to also be marked by your attainment of a mate.  Tell us, was she
    already a Christian - did she influence your decision?  Don't worry, I'm not
    trying to put you down for anything, I just want to know what the pattern
    was.

         Ever been to the Door?  I haven't, but I've heard a lot about it.
    There are a bunch of Christian converts there who have testimonies to force
    on you:  "Before I became a Christian, I was a drug addict and a fornicator,
    I stole and lied and was most unseemly," they tell you.  And then they were
    converted, and poof! look at them now -- honest, credible, mentally stable.
    This doesn't just apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, from
    New Age to Mormon to the NAM-MYOHO-RENGHE-KYO chant fanatics.  Whenever
    I let myself be verbally poured upon by these people, a common question
    enters my mind:  "Are there any of you who *weren't* losers before you
    entered the religion?"

         People who are suicidal usually have a single common reason for their
    feeling:  no feeling of self-worth.  One antidote is family, friends, or a
    group of supporters, i.e. LOVE.  And if no love is present, the creative
    human mind has a special way to survive -- make it up.  Make up an invisible
    entity (a childhood invisible friend, for example, or maybe...God) to fill
    that void.  God loves everybody, including you.  It's a nice delusion.

    Message: 64946
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Maranatha Ministries
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:26:38

         Here's a little story about something that happened to me.

         I used to attend Bible study meetings during my freshman year at the
    UofA.  My dormitory had weekly meetings and I felt the need, even though I
    didn't believe in it, to know more about the Bible.  The guy who ran the
    meetings was pretty amiable, and was always interested in talking to me
    about God and stuff.  We had a few really good conversations about our
    beliefs, some of them heated.  He invited me to sit in on one of his
    church's sermons.  He belonged to Marantha Ministries.  I took the offer.
          So I went to Marantha.  Everybody was pleasant.  They had a rockin'
    little band and my Christian friend played the drums.  A slick pastor
    rhetoricized and quoted the bible and it was a usual church type of thing.
          Then he started talking about "some people...in our audience
    tonight...who haven't been saved, but want to be."  He pointed to a section
    of the audience I was in.  Wow, I thought, I didn't even suspect that the
    people I was sitting among were not Christians, because they seemed pretty
    comfortable and "into it."
         The preacher went on.  He talked about Jesus, and then urged all the
    not-yet-saveds to come up to the elevated stage where he was and accept the
    Lord.  Slowly, everbody in my section came up, smiling, ready to form a big
    hug with the pastor.  Everybody, and I'm talking about 20 other
    people...except me.  I sat, alone, the only one who didn't want to be saved.
    I felt like such an outcast.  Looking back, I think that perhaps they had
    contrived the whole thing and were purposely trying to manipulate me.

         Anyway, I went home with my bible-study friend, and he seemed somewhat
    disappointed.  I felt pretty weird about the whole thing; I felt like a
    whole room of people had put the pressure on me to make a decision and I had
    let them down.  It doesn't feel too good to be alone.
         I guess that's why atheists, like any other type of people, stick
    together sometimes.

         Now that I think about it, I resent the tactics places like Marantha
    use to get people to join.  They are really playing on people's weaknesses,
    on their desire to be accepted.  That's not right.

         Well, that's my story.

    Message: 64948
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: "nothing worship"
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:37:53

    Excellent idea.  I freely admit that I worship nothing (except, of course,
    my magnificently bronzed Adonis-like body).

    Message: 64949
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter Gabriel
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:42:20

    I still love "Games Without Frontiers."  I finally found a used album with
    the track on it, and a lyric sheet was included.  There is a line which
    repeats the title of the song, in french: "Jeux sans frontieres."  I won't
    tell you what I had mistaken this as for many years; it's too embarassing.

    Message: 64950
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James Hawley
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:26:39

    So then, Peter Gabriel 'saved' you? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 64951
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on Rod
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:39:02

    Why do you consider that everything Rod says is 'Christian' bashing?? Is not
    what you are saying to him 'Athiest' bashing or bashing in general?? As far
    as I can see, he is simply, in clear concise words stating what he believes
    in as much as you are. It seems to me that your feelings, uncomfort
    regarding the subject are a tad uncalled for. Both of you are posting good
    stuff - no need for name calling. If he disagrees with you regarding time
    for instance, when you have a come back, it isn't 'time' bashing is it? So
    why does this have to apply when you discuss Christianity? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 64952
    Author: Mike Gunderloy
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Reviews
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:26:50

    From the latest issue of my magazine, _Factsheet Five_:

    Mychele, BREAK WAY ($3 from PO Box 1892, Tempe, AZ 85280-1892):  A
    collection of relationship poems and scary life poems.  Mychele hints
    around her subject, but there's a sense of control lost and later
    regained, of a life crumbling and reassembled.  Careful words and airy
    images.

    Mychele, SURVIVORS ($1 from PO Box 1892, Tempe, AZ 85280-1892):  A
    collection of poetry and short prose that Mychele wrote while in high
    school--a time which was the worst of her life.  There are bleak
    suicidal poems here, insterspersed with rebelliousness and the
    occasional ray of hope.  This book exists to tell other young people to
    find a way to get through it, and that there are people who will listen;
    a good message to repeat.

    Mychele, LOVING THYSELF ($1, etc.):  Erotica which lots of people are
    going to find hot in its simplicity.  It's basically a two-page
    description of masturbation to orgasm, lovingly written and very warm.

    Mychele, THE TANNING BED ($3, etc.):  A short story that goes from
    reality to fantasy to reality back again.  Rather erotic stuff, from the
    female point of view.  The ending is a bit surprising and leaves the
    reader free to fantasize off the page.

    Message: 64953
    Author: Mike Gunderloy
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Audio reviews!
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:47:39

    From the same issue:

    HERNIA RETRACTION ACCORDION, "Choking on the Fumes" ($4.99 from Peter
    Petrisko, Jr., PO Box 56942, Phoenix, AZ 85079): "Sonic experimentalism"
    from a batch of folks in the Phoenix area. They overlay their synthesizers
    with booming text pieces and found sounds, apparently striving towards a
    feeling of impending doom. It works well, especially on pieces like
    "Porn-O-Rama" and "Ashes to Ashes". Sampling in the service of insanity
    rather than simply expropriation.

    Message: 64954
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on Religion
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 08:10:12

    It's funny, but I had the completely reverse experience. I was raised in
    a fundamentalist Baptist church, and until I freed myself to doubt and
    to realize that I wasn't going to hell because I had those doubts, I was
    one miserable screwed up fundy.

    Message: 64955
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Repairs
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 09:23:11

    I am some-what underwhelmed with the response from "Solarwatt" listed in the
    Apollo services.  Does anyone know of a place I can get a power supply for
    an oddball PC fixed.  I can't even get this guy to give me an appointment to
    look at it.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 64956
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:26:54

    Bring the power supply to him then!

    Message: 64957
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Mike G
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:05:48

    I thought you lived in New York.  Boy am I confused.

    Message: 64958
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Shootout
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 14:42:13

    Yes, I am in favor of having the Shoot-out at the same place as the last
    one. That was just south of the Carefree Highway where it curves as you come
    east from the Black Canyon Freeway. There are dirt roads turning off to the
    south ther{ and{we congregated along the big wash there just out of sight of
    the main road.  Saturday morning around nine sounds good to me, how about
    everyone else? Everyone is welcome.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 64959
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT/last
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:06:57

            For those of you who feel you might be able to spot the turn off on
    Carefree Highway, turn off the Interstate and park on the South-East corner
    of the interchange. I will stop in there and ask any vehicles that happen to
    be there if they are going to the Apollo GT. If I get no response from the
    vehicles, I will ask the occupants of said vehicles.
            9:00 sounds fine. Try to be early if you want to be escorted in.

    Message: 64960
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Thornbob?
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:33:52

            Where is he?

                            cliff-

    Message: 64961
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gary / PC Pwr Supply
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:41:29

    I'll take a gander at it.
    Leave me your infor in mail and we'll chat.

    Message: 64962
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: $tatus
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 18:04:48

    Thanks for the welcome, Cliff!

         - Gordon

    Message: 64963
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on Gary
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:27:13

            Gary was to call Bob on Sunday...  He did, but only tried ONCE. Bob
    was on a job...but was home MOST of the day.  Bob had hoped he would call
    several times.... Bob got in touch with me today for the Phone number where
    he could reach Gary.... and I *think* it is all settled now.

            Hopefully, we will see the 'Bear' back on line soon!

                                    cliff-

    Message: 64964
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: When & Where finally
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 22:23:00

    OK, it seems, if I may summarize, that we'll meet around 9am on Saturday, at
    the South-East corner of the Carefree-Highway / I-17 interchange.  May I
    bring a friend, who is well-armed and interested?

    What kind of firearms are people bringing?  Rifles, shotguns, handguns?

    Michael Kielsky "I'm the NRA" -unpolitically speaking, anyone want to join?

    Message: 64965
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James/64939
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:27:21

    That is your opinion, and you are stuck with it.

    Message: 64966
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/64944
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:35:40

    But you are still playing favorites. What's so important about a painting of
    a Hopi religious ceremony, when a painting of a Hopi village and it's people
    would represent it's heritage?

    Message: 64967
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Maranatha
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:47:25

    But then again, perhaps it was honest and you were just paranoid. Not that I
    would have suggested that you "follow the crowd" and "get saved." I don't
    believe in the "accept Jesus" movement. Jesus calls and accepts us, we don't
    "accept" Him. The only action we can take credit for in our spiritual life
    would be the decision to reject Him. (Trust me, it's Scriptural.)

    You don't just suddenly get up and say, "Ok, like, I'm gonna like believe in
    Jesus now," and *zap* you're a believer. Why do you understand grass to be
    green? Because you see it with your physical eyes. You could say to
    yourself all you wanted "Ok, I'm gonna believe that grass is blue now," but
    I seriously doubt that you are going to believe it just because you said it.

    It works the same way with God. You don't just say a few words to "get"
    saved. It's through the grace of God that one's SPIRITUAL eyes are opened to
    understand and believe. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is then, and
    only then, that one can truly believe. God offers His Spirit to all people,
    though many make the choice to reject it's work in their lives.

    That is why I don't feel that someone should be pressured into making a
    "decision" to "believe" or "accept" Christ. One should read (I mean
    SERIOUSLY read, not just pick out those few out-of-context passages that
    atheists like to toss around) the Bible. It is through the words of God that
    faith grows. Not any human decision.

    Message: 64968
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Me on Rod
    Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:51:57

    I do not have a problem with Rod expressing his opinions. It is the
    belittling attitude in which he chooses to present them that I take issue
    with. I'm sure that Rod is able to make his viewpoint known without using
    such colorful terms as "makes me wanna puke." The point is that he chooses
    NOT to, at least on the subject of religion.

    Message: 64969
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last two
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:00:46

    Very Well put.

    Message: 64970
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: GT + Friends
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:09:21

    I don't believe anyone has forbidden people bringing friends.
    I am bringing a neighbor who also happens to be well armed and
    has his FFL. (I've picked up two guns from him for good prices!)
    Lesse...
    I'll be bringing the usual and a couple other weapons besides.
    If you're interested in what I will be bringing, you'll find out when
    you get there. I don't believe in open topic on my artillery.

    Sounds to me like it's set then. We'll all be meeting at the corner
    of I-17 and Carefree Highway, right where the little mini pull off
    area is...I seem to recall that area always has folks meeting there...
    and some vendors as well.
    We'll be bringing a stand-up target frame. Anyone who might have some
    metal plates might wanna drill a couple holes near one side so that
    some wire may be passed through them to support it in the frame.
    It's great for pistol shooting because it makes an umistakable
    "CLANG-O" when you bop it.

    I'd say the ideal size for the plates is no larger than 8"x8" or
    a 8" dia metal plate. The ones we have are kinda "shot" ;-) but
    we'll bring 'em anyway.

    Message: 64971
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tee-shirt slogans
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:56:52

    The following slogans have been accepted and the people responsible will
    receive 25 cents per sold shirt, off the top.

    "God Bless My Gun & Pit Bull"  -D. Westfall (perhaps now you can renew your
    $tatus.)

    "I am woman, hear me bitch."   -Melissa Dee (perhaps you can retire in
    luxury)

    "Taxation without representation is tyranny, taxation with representation
    ain't so hot either."  -Z. Woodruff  (perhaps you will be shot)

    Jeff Beck's entry, "Steal this tee-shirt and strike a blow against
    capitalism", is a damn good expression and although it would look just great
    in stores, what happens after it is purchased?

    Gordon Little's, "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" is good but
    there are not enough intellectuals around to make it profitable.

    I would suggest that other submissions were submitted.  When we get enough
    of your money we will head for the border, eh.

    Thanks.

    Message: 64972
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cheek-in-tongue, eh!
    Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:57:45

    Zak is lucky because if he were around during the Inquisition and didn't
    accept Jesus, he'd be dead right now.  Come to think of it, he'd be dead
    anyway.  Never mind.

    If he had stood in a public square and professed that the world was really
    not the center of the universe he'd be burned at the stake.

    Yes, the roots of Jesus worship do have their moments.  And I remember so
    well the roots and beginnings of atheism, yes indeed.  It was all these
    non-believers torturing anyone who accepted Jesus.  It was horrible, the
    blood, the gore.

    Well, as I always say, look to the roots of an organization.  Secrecy,
    fear, torture, death, banishment...yeetch.

    Thus far Jesus hasn't phoned me but since I got the new U.S. West answering
    service I'm sure I won't miss His call.  And I guess God is mad at me
    because He hasn't phoned either.  Funny, I'm sure my number is listed.

    And I did, at one time, read the Christian Bible seriously.  At least
    Captain Marvel Comic Books have continuity.   -Rod