### Apollo BBS Archive - November 26, 1991

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    Message: 8691
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bill/Weight loss
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 01:43:08

    Well, Bill, I first started by walking everyday. I started off by walking
    for about 10 minutes away from my house then headed back for a total of 20
    minutes. I increased that by 5 minutes every week until I was doing a total
    of 60 minutes everyday. I also started reducing by fat intake. Now I only
    consume 20 to 25 percent of my calories from fat. I do this my not hardly
    eating any red meat, fried foods, cheese, or nuts. I didn't do all of this
    overnight. I worked on changing one thing a time.

                          <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 8692
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul/weight
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 02:13:57

    Well, I guarantee you won't take the weight off unless *you* get fed up
    having it there.  The only reason I dumped mine is that *I* didn't like it.
    If it fits your image in a dignified way, why not keep it?  Whoever heard of
    a *thin* Santa Claus?

    I know of only two ways to make selective changes in fat distribution.  One
    is liposuction, an expensive procedure undergone by stupid self-indulgent
    Hollywood types, and the result doesn't last anyway.  Liposuction is a
    process in which a well-heeled surgeon attaches a long suction tube to your
    bank account.  The other way is to take estrogen, which is cheaper, but I
    guarantee the fat redistribution you get won't fit your image either  :)

    If you get to hate the weight, you can dump it.  But if your wife happens to
    nag you about it, you have my permission to quote one of my favorite Ann
    Landers responses, which I may have mentioned on here before.  Some woman
    wrote to her to tell her to urge other wives to nag their husbands in the
    interest of adding years to their lives.  "Eat the right food, and less of
    it!  Take exercise!  Don't smoke!  Don't drink so much!"  Ann's response:
    "Sorry, I don't agree.  Who needs more years like that?"

    Message: 8693
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 02:15:11

    What you said makes perfect sense to me.  Several things affect the accuracy
    of a gun, but at my mediocre level of shooting ability what I notice most is
    the effects of trigger pull and of recoil.  Ideal trigger pull is light and
    breaks suddenly without any creep beforehand.  But most guns have some
    degree of creep, and if there is some, the next best thing to hope for is
    that the trigger pull will be smooth, not notchy.  One of the best trigger
    pulls I can remember was on a .45 Colt Gold Cup, but I didn't shoot it at
    all accurately because of the other problem, recoil.  It's not that recoil
    in itself is at all bothersome to me (though there are people who find it
    so).  I think it's more that when recoil is greater, its effect is more
    noticeable compared with the strength of your grip, so when recoil is
    stronger you have to hold the gun more consistently to get it to shoot
    accurately.  I think a .45 is fun to shoot, but I'm all over the place with
    it.  Needless to say, I get the best accuracy of all with a Ruger .22, which
    has both an excellent trigger and low recoil -- which is kept down by the
    relatively high weight of the gun compared to the low power of the
    cartridge.  I understand that some target shooters use the .22 Short
    precisely for this reason, to reduce recoil (especially for rapid-fire
    shooting).  But clearly a .22 isn't an ideal combat weapon.

    I suspect you'll get even better at the Glock trigger with practice.  It's
    all in the head.  Not anticipating the shot is the real trick, as you've
    already found.

    Message: 8694
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike/flu
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 05:47:24

     Sorry to hear about your bout with the bug. Kind of reminded me of muyself
    2 years ago, when I spent most of the flu season down with the stuff. Down
    for a week at a time, up for a day or two, then down for another week. Last
    year I decided that it was time to try a flu shot when they came around.
    Didn't have as much as a sniffle, even though I spent a lot of time in the
    company of large groups of kids, many of whom admittedly had the flu. This
    year, when the flu shots started advertising, I was one of the first in
    line. THey don't have to tell me twice!
     Hope ya get better and stay that way real soon!

    Message: 8695
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Joe's Thinning Out
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:20:26

    Sounds like a sensible approach, Joe.  Cutting out the red meat would
    probably be the hardest for me.  And how am I supposed to enjoy enchiladas
    without cheese?  :)

    Message: 8696
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: When
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:20:48

    Sunday, December 8th, would be best for me.  Unless we wait until the
    afternoon of the 7th.

    Message: 8697
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: Where, Who...
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:35:06

    Yeah, Sunday the 8th is good for me.  The 7th is out, however.  I meeting
    and a play in Tempe are penciled in my calendar.

    Message: 8698
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: The Cat; Felix
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 15:57:58

    RE: $395
      I think it is too much.  I have a hard time understanding why good guns
    are so expensive.

    Message: 8699
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Update
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 16:04:44

    I was wondering what ever did happen to the Redline's.  So does that mean
    you got them but aren't allowed to unwrap them till Sandy cools down or you
    don't have them yet?

    Message: 8700
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: GT Time & Place
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 17:03:21

    I guess Sunday would be O.k., I could miss chruch one day.
    The last place the Great Apollo Shoot-out GT was held can no longer
    be used because some idiot politicians of ours decided to annex the
    desert up to that road into the City Limits.
    There is a couple places just west of that area, about 7 miles due
    west of I-17. This weekend I might be able to get away to stake out
    a new place. If anyone knows of a good shootin spot with a good back-drop
    such as a mountain, post it here.

    BTW, For folks like Mr Little; please keep the area description down to
    300 words or less.
    ;-)

    Message: 8701
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:47:53

    Re:  This year, when the flu shots started advertising, I was one of the
    first in line.

    What's it cost to get a flu shot now-a-days?  When I'm as old as you, I'll
    probably get them shots too.  But I got a long ways to go; I'm only 75 now.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 8702
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Fred
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:52:18

    Re:  I think it is too much.

    Yeah, guns are expensive.  Almost as expensive as computers.  I wonder what
    a good set of golf clubs cost?  And green fees?  Maybe putting in a swimming
    pool would be a good idea?  Don't I know that kids are starving in China?

    Hey Annie, where can I buy a cheap Corvette?

    This is all TIC.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 8703
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:56:55

    Re:  I could miss chruch one day.

    What a riot Mike!  Actually I could miss "chruch" everyday and not really
    miss it!  HA!

    Re:  The last place the Great Apollo Shoot-out GT was held can no longer
    be used because some idiot politicians of ours decided to annex the
    desert up to that road into the City Limits.

    Are you talking about that place in Carefree?  We've been shooting there at
    least a dozen times since that last GT and never knew about it.  There's
    usually 3 or 4 other groups shooting there when we're there.

    Where else can we go?

    Message: 8704
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bill Thinning Out
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 01:28:12

    RE: And how am I supposed to enjoy enchiladas without cheese?

    Bill you don't have to give up the cheese, just reduce the amount that you
    comsume. If you used to have 4 enchiladas with cheese, just cut back to 2 or
    even better just one. And if you make them chicken enchilads so much the
    better. Also use conola oil to cook them in.

                           <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 8705
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: When
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 01:29:50

    Sunday the 8th is also good for me. I haven't made a date for that day y

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    Subject:GT-Shootout

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     1:How about on top of the Valley Bank Building, Central and Van Buren?
     2:end

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    Subject:Cheese

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     1:The next time you see a hunk of slimey cheese, think of it going into your
     2:entrails and rotting there.
     3:
     4:Milk is a natural.  A natural what?  Natural for whom?
     5:
     6:I wiegh 135-40, the same as when I was in puberty.  The way I acheive
     7:thinness is by telling my body that I need it for survival.  I am
     8:responsible for a lot of other people and my success depends on me being fit
     9:enough to do it.
    10:
    11:I have cut way down on dairy products although I ocassionally back slide and
    12:believe it or not, my body responds to this backsliding in a less than
    13:positive way.
    14:
    15:I use a good amound of energy in my work.  I have a coke during the day but
    16:do not eat a breakfast until I am home in the evening.  On weekends there is
    17:an exception and that is I tend to get hungry sooner.
    18:
    19:Good fortune to us all.
    20:end

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     6:I wiegh 135-40, the same as when I was in puberty.  The way I acheive
    Find text:wiegh
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     6:I weigh 135-40, the same as when I was in puberty.  The way I acheive
    Find text:

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    Message: 8705
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: When
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 01:29:50

    Sunday the 8th is also good for me. I haven't made a date for that day yet.

                              <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 8706
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 06:08:40

    Smart alec! (smile). If y you're eligible for MEdicare, the flu shots are
    both free and strongly recommended, since we are considered a high risk
    group. Otherwise, they cost $10, and are well worth it. My child bride gets
    them also, and we haven't been bothered for the past two years, thank God.

    Message: 8707
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: GT-Shootout
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 23:38:27

    How about on top of the Valley Bank Building, Central and Van Buren?

    Message: 8708
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cheese
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 23:46:52

    The next time you see a hunk of slimey cheese, think of it going into your
    entrails and rotting there.

    Milk is a natural.  A natural what?  Natural for whom?

    I weigh 135-40, the same as when I was in puberty.  The way I acheive
    thinness is by telling my body that I need it for survival.  I am
    responsible for a lot of other people and my success depends on me being fit
    enough to do it.

    I have cut way down on dairy products although I ocassionally back slide and
    believe it or not, my body responds to this backsliding in a less than
    positive way.

    I use a good amound of energy in my work.  I have a coke during the day but
    do not eat a breakfast until I am home in the evening.  On weekends there is
    an exception and that is I tend to get hungry sooner.

    Good fortune to us all.

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    Message: 5164
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Wait a minute...
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:38:04

    I haven't been paying much attention to the world at large for the last
    couple of days.  Has Johnson (or someone else) come out and said he got the
    HIV virus from anal sex or homosexual sex?  And why are you all against him,
    now?
    I'm still getting over Freddie Mercury, myself.  I wonder if Cliff would
    want to put that in his expired sig.  He was 45.  And the lead singer for
    the group Queen.

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    Subject:AIDS

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     1:I hear that Elvis' corpse will be exhumed in order to check him for the
     2:virus.  There is now rumor that he had it.
     3:end

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    Message: 1971
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Expired Soul
    Subject: Freddie Mercury
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:46:23

    Died of AIDS on Monday (I believe).  He was 45.  Queen was one of the
    biggest influences on my life when I was growing up.  Some of their earlier
    work is near genius.  "Bohemian Rapsady", "Now I'm Here", and the more
    popular "Death on Two Legs", "Killer Queen", "Bicycle/Fat Bottom Girls" to
    name a few.

    Message: 1972
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 17:17:19

    I wondered if Queen ever had any "queens" in it.
    I liked their music and still have a few alblums laying in storage,
    it was the era of the nuclear sub for me.
    "I wanna ride my Bicycle."

    Message: 1973
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Gone with the wind
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 09:19:16

    What trash.  I suppose you still read Harlequin romances, too, and wonder
    why they never appear on best seller lists or why the authors aren't
    nominated for Pulitzers?

    Message: 1974
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 18:34:59

    Wrong sig, babe...

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    Message: 1970
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Whisper Chipper (tm)
    Date: 11/24/91  Time: 02:52:40

    See ad on (B)ulletin Board for this marvelous device.

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    Message: 79979
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS & hookers
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 04:24:21

    In most urban areas, men hiring prostitutes most frequently request to have
    fellatio performed.  This act has not shown to be a high-risk means of
    transmission of the AIDS virus to the patron.  The prostitute, should she
    allow the customer to ejaculate into her mouth, would seem to be at greater
    risk, but this does not seem to be the case.  Again, the presence of blood,
    along with a corresponding entry point for the virus, seems to be necessary
    to cause infection.

    Message: 79980
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick on AIDS
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 05:42:56

     While the information you provide from time to time is appreciated, Nick, I
    have but one question (or comment). SO long as one is engaged in a
    monogamous sexual relationship with his/her spouse, they have nothing at all
    to worry about, so who cares? I wonder why, in this age of constantly
    degenerating morals, this little fact isn't emphasized as much as "safe"
    promiscuous sex with anyone who happens along.

    Message: 79981
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/monogamous
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:04:56

    You must remember that *both* partners must be in a completely monogamous
    relationship -- and be lucky enough never to need a blood transfusion
    (although the chances of this method of transmission are probably going
    down).

    Also, either partner takes a chance by working in the health (or police or
    fire) field, and possibly others.

    Message: 79982
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Green Lantern - Huh?
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 07:20:00

    > It is clear to me that the failure to tell the jury that it has
    > the right to find for the defendant regardless of the law is
    > grounds for reversal.

    Did you come to this conclusion based on the court decision summary that was
    posted?  If so, how?  Didn't the appeals court refuse to reverse on the jury
    nullification argument?

    Or are you saying you think the court was full of it?

    Message: 79983
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau on AIDS
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 08:46:24

    What do you want Beau? You seem to be in disagreement but I can't figure out
    what you want - driving at? Are you saying we should pull off of other
    disease research and take the time and the allocated monies and put it to
    AIDS research instead? Are you actually saying it isn't basically a gay
    disease? Are you saying that we can't control the blood transfusions? Whom
    we have sexual contact with? Are you saying it is an epidemic? Do you think
    that if two people do not have sex with others that their chances of
    contacting AIDS is still high? That doesn't make a bit of sense. If us
    humans are careful, we WON'T contact AIDS in our lifetime and the people
    that do - through transfusions, dentist, doctors etc. etc. are very small
    percentage wise. We can catch Hepatitis from all that too but we aren't
    panicing over it. As a matter of fact, I've heard of more people getting
    that than AIDS. But the 'sexual' conotation is missing in that disease, so
    it doesn't get the media exposure as AIDS does. People catch and die
    diseases over a year's time, but it isn't spread out on the front page.
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 79984
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/reversal
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 10:09:14

    Sorry my fingers fly faster than my feeble brain. I meant "is not grounds
    for reversal"

    Message: 79985
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS1
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 10:27:45

    A couple of days after all the hooplah came out about Magic
    Johnson, one of the TV news stations took their camera to a
    school room somewhere in the United States to interview children
    6 -7 years of age and ask them questions about AIDS - what
    happened to Johnson, etc. The gist of the interview was to show
    how important it was that the children are educated on AIDS and
    are able to discuss it. The reporters were making comments at how
    wonderful it was that these children were educated and pretty
    much know what was going on. A couple of the kids seemed very
    knowledgable - a couple made 'cutesy' remarks with sexual
    undertones.
    Most of the time because there is so much AIDS talk, I ignore
    stuff like this, but this one really got to me! I ask myself what
    "WE ARE DOING TO OUR CHILDREN"? What ugly thing have we become to
    put this burden on their heads at a time when they should be
    playing with their toys and their only worry is what time they
    have to go to bed? We just keep on pushing their childhood back
    and back until they won't have any. We push for good grades from
    Kindergarten onward - we push for excellence in sports from day
    one and now we lay things on them like this disease. They
    shouldn't have to know about anything but childhood diseases at
    that age and very little of that! (Cont.)

    Message: 79986
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS2
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 10:28:31

    (Cont.) Education is very valuable, but we have created this
    problem - we keep it going. We are wallowing in the publicity
    because it has sexual overtones. We tell our children that this
    disease is mostly contacted by anal intercourse between men -
    explain homosexual - explain that it might have first started by
    some guy having sexual relations with a primate - we'd rather do
    all this - tell them about this ugliness - than take the
    responsibility for ourselves and our daily contacts and curtail
    the disease.  Sure, it is all the truth, but why should we burden
    them until they are old enough to understand? It shouldn't be
    THEIR problem!! What is the matter with us that we go into the
    school room and lay this heavy burden on them? Why can't we let
    them be children longer?  Adulthood goes on for ever. As it is,
    we must educate them on drugs and the street corner pusher
    unfortunately because no matter their age, they can use drugs,
    but they sure as heck not going to go out and catch AIDS. They
    don't need to know about Magic Johnson's problem. It's an adult
    one, not a child's one! If we let them be children longer, then
    we wouldn't have to worry about any of this AIDS stuff until they
    are ready to go out and be sexually active. I don't' see any
    common sense being applied where this disease is concerned. One
    and one still make two but it seems that everybody is hell bent
    on changing those numbers to prove something. What?  It's pretty
    clear. (Cont.)

    Message: 79987
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS3
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 10:29:12

    (Cont.) I feel that the real burden to this problem lies on the
    Gay male. He needs to be less promiscuous or pay the price. Why
    arne't we pushing for educating them instead of our school
    children?  Second, the hetrosexuals need to be less promiscuous
    or pay the price. Both must practice safe sex no matter what.
    My heart goes out to anyone that dies horriably from the disease,
    but that doesn't mean I do not know that 99% of those that died
    from it could have avoided it! Why are some of you people trying
    to sweep that fact under the rug?
    There is such ugliness to all of this, yet it seems many are
    trying to make beautiful martyrs out of those that die from it!
    Johnson is paying his price and the guy from the rock group Queen
    paid his.  You know ... one and one make two - always!

    People that have intercourse in another's anal cavity = AIDS
    People that have many sex partners, gay or otherwise = AIDS
    People that have sex with primates = AIDS
    People that do not practice safe sex in today's times = AIDS
    Men that pick up prostitutes = AIDS
    People that are bisexual = AIDS
    People that have one sex partner and does not cheat on that
    partner = peace of mind = lack of worry = responsibility
    = a long life! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 79988
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: J Matlock
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:04:34

    RE: how to buy out Fort Knox
      I think you answered you own q        uestion.  I'd be suprised if there
    was enough gold in existence to actually use it as MONEY on a worldwide
    scale.  That, really, is why "notes" and "checks" evolve in any country that
    has a thriving econo

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    Subject:Ann/yourAIDS msg.

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     1:Very well put.  Perhaps that should be published.
     2:end

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    Message: 79988
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: J Matlock
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:04:34

    RE: how to buy out Fort Knox
      I think you answered you own q        uestion.  I'd be suprised if there
    was enough gold in existence to actually use it as MONEY on a worldwide
    scale.  That, really, is why "notes" and "checks" evolve in any country that
    has a thriving economy.  An economy based strictly on MONEY would soon
    become throttled by the logistics of it all.  And even if you try to avoid
    the "problems" of checks by requireing all checks to be  backed by gold you
    are doomed it would seem to me.  Once checks start circulating they become
    the same as "notes".  In fact, if what I learned in school about the early
    days of "Checking", the checks often cirulated for years before being
    "cashed" due to the lack of bank branches, etc.  The endorements on the back
    not only filled the back but the continured on other paper.

    Message: 79989
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Arch/Backwards
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:27:53

    You seem to have it backwards.  If and when the Fed Res NOtes are called in
    it will not be ME that owes someone something.  It will be the FEDS who owe
    ME a dollar.  It's their note, not mine.
      How do you figure I am gettng ripped off when I am using the same money to
    buy and sell as everyone else.  You simply don't seem to understand the
    purpose of MONEY as a medium of exchange.  MONEY, in and of itself, really
    doesn't have to have any intrinsic value to serve it's intended purpose.
    Perhaps part of your problem is that you confuse "wealth" with money.  If a
    person really wants to be truely wealthy they need to own someting tangible,
    real estate, tobacco, corn, or even GOLD.  It could be dollars if you were
    sure there would continue to be a market for them, but that is shakier then
    the really truely tangible hard goods or land.  Try wealth consists in
    owning that which others want.                   ^^^ true.
    It still all goes back to the fact that you are trying to blame the money
    for what the gvt's shortcomings are.

    Message: 79990
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ARch
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:34:34

    Just out of idle curiosity, why would *anyone* support a "gold" standard
    given that for some people the "valuble" commodity that they must have to
    use for money is not fairly distributed to all at the beginning of the
    game??  Would you play poker if you had to buy your chips but your opponents
    got their "free" from a hole in the ground?  And at the end of the game you
    might lose your house to pay your "debt" if YOU lost but if they lost they
    could just dig up a couple more chips in the back yard??

    Message: 79991
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SeigniSeignior
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:36:06

    SOunds like just another way to spell screwing to me.  I can't beleive you
    think that is a "solution"!!

    Message: 79992
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ARch
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 13:37:40

    Yeah, sure, that's the standard answer - If you don't agree with me you
    haven't done enough homework.  That's the same thing the christains always
    pull when they can't defend their positions.

    Message: 79993
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JM
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 15:36:34

    I think you are correct - jury nullification is a "right" inasmuch as there
    isn't much that can be done about it UNLESS a jury gets carried away during
    the deliberations.  It is possible I think, for the judge to bounce a juror
    if he takes exception to something, and could even hold them in contempt or
    something I imagine.  I can also see a situation where one jury tried to
    "instruct" the other jurors of their rights and then one of the other jurors
    tattling to the judge, whereupon the judge might get all huffy.

    Message: 79994
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 16:55:32

    I was on a Federal Jury not too long ago. People were really unaware
    of the fact that they can vote their conscience.
    In fact, when I told them about it they seemed suprised.

    No wonder.

    With a bunch of judges running around telling juries how they MUST vote
    and how to come about a verdict, it's easy to mess up the entire
    system.

    Message: 79995
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Kids
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 19:35:01

    Phooey. When I was a kid, our parents were scared to death that we would get
    polio, which was very easy to get. I remember staying out of public and away
    from the beaches so that we wouldn't get this dread disease. Children have
    had to deal with disease and war since time began. Our kids need to be
    educated, not sheltered from real life.

    I can remember the air raid sirens in Cleveland, Ohio during WWII, and I
    imagine the children of Europe and Japan had to endure real horror. I
    remember when we used to hide under our desks in Atomic Bomb drills during
    the '50s and when the Russians got the bomb, we were scared. For it wasn't
    long before that airplanes had been dropping bombs on Europe, and was it our
    turn next ?

    Message: 79996
    Author: Darryl Green
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Free Energy info
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:08:51

                   FREE ENERGY TECHNOLGY

    Has been surpressed. 6 fascinating hours of videotape
    plus over 100 pages of documentation. Call
    1-800-374-3307 today. Here is what you will hear
    and see:

    * Your Car Can Be Modified To Run With No Exhaust or Gasoline!
    * An Unlimited Source of Fresh Water Can Be Purified Anywhere
      At No Cost.
    * Eliminate Acid Rain, Toxix Waste. All Forms of Pollution and
      the Need for Nuclear Power!
    * Garbage and Even Sewage Can Be Disintegrated "on Site"
      With No Negative Effects!
    * Free Electricity Can Be Harmlessly Producted From Air Anywhere
      In Any Quantity In A Practical Manner!

    Receive information to review for two weeks at no cost to you!
    Please, don't forget to tell them you got this information from
    your BBS. Also, I would appreciate a note from you telling me
    what you thought about this information. I would prefer if you
    left this message on Remotron at (602)994-9882. This board also
    has a couple of files which expose surpressed information in
    zip files Secret.zip, Socialst.zip, Oral_che.zip and Fed.zip.

    Message: 79997
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:34:29

    Re:  AIDS 1, 2, & 3

    Good for you Annie for telling it like it is!

    Message: 79998
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green
    Date: 11/26/91  Time: 22:41:47

    Re:  I remember when we used to hide under our desks in Atomic Bomb drills
    during the '50s and when the Russians got the bomb, we were scared. For it
    wasn't long before that airplanes had been dropping bombs on Europe, and was
    it our turn next ?

    Gee, what a waste.  All that worrying for nothing!

    Re:  Children have had to deal with disease and war since time began. Our
    kids need to be educated, not sheltered from real life.

    Right.  Lets take all the 6 and 7 year old kids and explain what anal
    intercourse is.  Explain all about M&S and all the other ugly deviate
    behavior in all its gross detail.  I'm sure that would solve all the AIDS
    problems in years to come.  Right.

    Message: 79999
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Aids 1-3
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 02:02:10

    Ann, I agree with most of what you said. But as a single guy who had been
    married for 23 years, AIDS is a very scary thing.

                            <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 80000
    Author: $ Funky Alf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Turkey
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 02:07:07

    Bill > Good to see you back, Alf!

    ALF > Hey, Thanks Bill, good to be back.
    Now, back to the "McLaughlin Group" on KAET 8, the topic is...
    'Encyclopedias'... Research Tools or Toys?
    Wilt Chamberlain had sex with 20,000 women?,  He must have made the
    condom companys rich, 20,000 condoms = $$$$$$.
    I don't believe it.  What's next, Madonna admitting she had sex with
    30,000 guys?  < might be true... Ask Wilt.

    Happy Turkey Day Everybody!!!!!  Gobble...Gobble
    Do Parrots eat Turkey?  Ask Cliff.
    Funky ALF

    Message: 80001
    Author: $ Funky Alf
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject:

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Turkey Day

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:If anyone would be interested in a Turkey Day GT then meet me at Taco Bell,
     2:7th Avenue south of Indian School at noon tomorrow.  Gobble, gobble.
     3:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 80049

    Public Bulletin Board command:$RC

    Press  to abort

    Message: 80001
    Author: $ Funky Alf
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Last 80000
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 02:09:22

    I posted message number 80,000...Cool!
    ALF

    Message: 80002
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/AIDS
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 04:45:12

    Monogomy may be desireable for various reasons, but humans are vulnerable to
    the influences of their hormones, and this is not likely to change.

    AIDS is a devastating disease, one that is best handled through research and
    education, not moralizing.

    Message: 80003
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 05:53:53

     I realize that there are other ways to contract the disease, however, the
    vast majority of transmissions are through sexual contact. (I can remember
    the "good old" days when it was said that ghonorrea (sp) could be caught
    from toilet seats too, but it was usually a pretty lame excuse.) The only
    real "safe" sex outside of a monogamous relationship is no sex.

    Message: 80004
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/AIDS
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 06:05:19

     THere's certainly nothing wrong with research and education, and I heartily
    endorse all that is being done along those lines. However, Nick, when it
    comes to homosexuality and/or promiscuous sex, a little moralizing is not a
    bad thing either.

    Message: 80005
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green #79995
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:30:01

    I agree with most of that. I too lived through a lot of it and it did
    not make me grow up fast(er). But I can't see where Polio can be compared to
    AIDS!
    You say children should not be sheltered from real life. Of course they
    can't, but they certainly don't need to be pushed into before they have to d
    they? Do you really think it was necessary for those kids to be interviewed
    about Magic Johnson when they were asking them questions if they understood
    or not - and most of them did? What does a kid of 6 have to do with AIDS?
    Why do they have to know how many Johnson slept with? What gays do to spread
    it? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80006
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cat # 79997
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:32:19

    And then we get people like Green Lantern that thinks kids should have to
    face this thing. And others that will 'education you to death' and still
    skirt around the real truth - cure. I just don't get it. Every body seems to
    be playing 'Ostrich' where this disease is concerned. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80007
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cat 79998
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:34:34

    Good one Cat. I wonder if Green Lantern sat his kids down and explained what
    gays do?! I wonder if he took his 6 year old and taught him to use a rubber.
    After all - "That's real life" now! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80008
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Joe on AIDS
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:41:37

    You bet your life it's scarey Joe. All the education in the world is not
    going to change how deadly it is. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80009
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick on AIDS
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:49:19

    Well I'm NOT moralizing Nick! And I never said we shouldn't have education
    on it. But really, what kind of education did we get about Magic Johnson?
    That straight people can get it? We already knew that! That if you go to bed
    with hundreds of people you can get it easier? We already knew that! What is
    it about AIDS that you think we all should be educated on? Do you think that
    those children - age 6 & 7 should have what Magic did explained to them?
    And if you believe so, Why? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80010
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: C

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:AIDS

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Everybody relax.  All it can do is kill us.
     2:
     3:You can still die in your sleep with AIDS.
     4:
     5:Okay, everyone pick their favorite way to die and try to stick to it.
     6:
     7:I pick a quick death, like a 100,000 ton piece of steel dropping center
     8:point on my head, without warning.  But then again I really can't say how it
     9:will happen but I can say that it will and that time is as good as now.
    10:
    11:In fact I ofttimes think that I died but there just hasn't been a FUNeral.
    12:
    13:Until then I will most probably, as least for a while, tell who ever I meet
    14:what a joke it is being a slave to a physical body.  I tell them that there
    15:has to be a better form of life and that I am going to find it.
    16:
    17:I think AIDS is the biggest joke of late.  There has been some quite clever
    18:and quite deadly viruses going around for eons.  When the flesh has become
    19:weak enough
    20:end

    Edit command:D19

    Edit command:E18

    18:and quite deadly viruses going around for eons.  When the flesh has become
    Find text:When the flesh has become
    Replace text:

    18:and quite deadly viruses going around for eons.
    Find text:

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 80050

    Public Bulletin Board command:$RC

    Press  to abort

    Message: 80010
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick again
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 08:52:43

    You don't know how crazy this is sounding - you accuse Pauley of trying to
    solve the problem with morals and you stress education and rudely fluff off
    his ideas and yet, he has a real good solution that would halt the disease
    in it's track almost immediately and your way would take years!
                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 80011
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/79987
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 09:04:33

    Well, you were close.  Your *first* is wrong if the *last* is true.

    And *that* is why it is not a "gay" disease.

    (And I hope you had fun putting lots of words into my mouth in an earlier
    post)

    Message: 80012
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/AIDS
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 10:03:58

    re:comparing polio with AIDS. If you can't remember, I remember pictures of
    kids in iron lung machines. I'd think that a living hell like that is far
    worse than AIDS that some adult cathes, except when it is some kid who has
    it because of a tainted blood supply.

    Message: 80013
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Ostrich
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 10:06:22

    This disease comes from Africa where it is estimated that 30 percent of the
    population in some areas have contracted it from heterosexual sex. The
    lesson: Don't do it with anybody.

    Which leads to an interesting question. If I am single and want to get
    married should I insist that my partner gets tested for AIDS with a
    mandatory 6 month waiting period ?

    Message: 80014
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/homosex
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 10:10:16

    re:explain to children about homosexuals.
    You mean like when I was about 6 years old and asked my Aunt (who had taken
    me to the public pool to learn how to swim) why the man in the locker room
    showed me his penis ?

    Message: 80015
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: In search of
    Subject:   Energy
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 12:59:52

    Yawn!  I slept (dozed, tossed) in a little bit late today, and now I'm tired
    and slow.  I have to find energy somewhere so that I can win a racquetball
    match in an hour.

    It is important, it is for first place in the "low advanced" division of my
    company racquetball league.

    Message: 80016
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS/HIV
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 14:26:57

    Re:  what kind of education did we get about Magic Johnson?

    A good case in point.  Johnson was a well educated as anyone about AIDS/HIV,
    but what good did it do him??  So AIDS/HIV education is the answer to the
    prevention thereof??  Well it didn't seem to work on Johnson.  What's that
    you say?  Johnson was ignorant about AIDS/HIV, and that's the reason he got
    bit??  No one will believe that.

    Message: 80017
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: B Dog
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 14:29:41

    Re:  And *that* is why it is not a "gay" disease.

    Semantics, semantics.  We both know that 66% of the people with AIDS/HIV are
    homos.  If you want to insist that it's not a homo disease I guess it's OK.

    Message: 80018
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 14:32:18

    Re:  except when it is some kid who has it because of a tainted blood
    supply.

    According to BIG Brother, there is no more tainted blood supply.  This is an
    area that has been corrected.  So that leaves mostly homos and dopers and
    people like Wilt the Stilt.

    Message: 80019
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 14:39:06

    Re:  You mean like when I was about 6 years old and asked my Aunt (who had
    taken me to the public pool to learn how to swim) why the man in the locker
    room showed me his penis ?

    Maybe he considered you a likely prospect.  The man in the locker room was
    just using the de facto standard for recruiting new flesh.  Sort of like
    angling for a fish.  He puts the lure out and sees who will take a bite.

    Message: 80020
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 17:47:26

    The man in question was probably a pederast but *not* a homosexual.  That
    is, he probably had no interest in *men*.

    Message: 80021
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 18:42:52

    You say you want less money going to AIDS, what you say is a preventable
    disease (except those who get it from transfusions).  Then you say you want
    that money to go to something like cancer.  I find this very interesting
    rationalization coming from a smoker who disbelieves surgen general
    statistics on the risks of getting cancer from smoking cigarettes.

    Message: 80022
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: I.O.U.'s
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:39:43

    BD> Ummm, Archimedes, hasn't the Federal Reserve system given us "dollars"
    BD> instead of hard currency?

    No.  In our nation, under our laws, "dollars" *are* "hard currency."  The
    Federal Reserve has taken away our dollars of hard currency and replaced
    them with paper "Federal Reserve Notes" which are intrinsically worthless.

    BD>   Isn't it *we* who should, at some point, be able to demand payment?

    One would like to think so, but it is typical of their Orwellian
    "doublespeak" that it doesn't work that way.  Only they would have the
    unmitigated gall to give the people an "I.O.U." and demand payment for it,
    as though it were worth something.  This is the kind of doublespeak which
    makes it very difficult for those depending upon public education for their
    perceptual baseline to understand the real scam ripping them off, and it was
    planned that way.

    To put it another way, only they would have the schmaltz to make that kind
    of offer to the people:  "Here, I'll give you this paper I.O.U. to use for
    money if you will agree to pay me gold and silver for it when I decide it is
    time for you to pay."

    Message: 80023
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Thorn 1/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:41:04

    JM> I don't know why he finds me such a thorn in the side, when my opinion
    JM> of him runs toward amused indifference.  Perhaps it's because he takes
    JM> himself so seriously, while I don't take him seriously at all.

    To the contrary, I don't take myself so seriously at all.  However, I do
    take the issues of the enslavement of America by a bunch of high-echelon con
    men extremely seriously.  I doubt you take much of anything seriously unless
    it provides you with ego-gratification.

    I don't care whether you regard me with "amused indifference" or not, though
    I don't believe you do:  I believe you regard me and anyone else who
    presents controversial information outside your specific and limited area of
    knowledge as a threat to your amused and self-important intellectual
    superiority over everyone else.

    And you are not a thorn in my side because you disagree with me or with the
    issues I present.  You are a thorn in my side because you find it necessary
    to prop up your amused and self-important intellectual superiority with
    ridicule, smug arrogance, and nonsense masquerading as profundity.  That is
    to say, you attack the person rather than the issue, and when you do attack
    the issue you do so with ridicule and scorn rather than with factual
    information of a contrary nature.  You seek to destroy rather than
    enlighten.  If you can't be top dog because everyone yearns to bow and

    Message: 80024
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Thorn 2/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:43:13

    scrape before your breath-taking intellect, then you'll be top dog over
    scorched earth.  But top dog you must be, either way.

    It is hoped that eventually you will learn how to deal with people
    respectfully and diplomatically, whether you disagree with them or not.  It
    is called maturity, and comes from "growing up," whether it occurs by
    careful observation of the processes of fruitful discussion and acceptance
    of those processes, or by getting rapped in the teeth time and time again
    for amused arrogance and incivility.

    [Aside to Cliff:  The 'issue' here is basic protocols of discussion and a
    minimal respect for the position of others on any given issue.  In this
    message I have tried to address this issue and not attack the individual
    himself for acting like a jerk.  I hope this meets the criteria.  If not,
    please delete any portion you find objectionable.]

    Message: 80025
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:43:59

    AS> Archimedes:  This ule also applies to us $tatus users...  let's
    AS> not be calling anyone 'Brat' or 'Spoiled'.

    Point taken.  I think I've said all I'm going to say to/about him for
    awhile.

    Message: 80026
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: America ...Occupied!
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:45:00

    BB> At long last!  The first draft of Archimedes's book, "America ...
    BB> Occupied" is finally available for ownload from the ibrary.

    Thanks, Bill.  93k!  Good grief.  I haven't even read it myself since I
    uploaded it to Reality Check!; I hope the latter part of it isn't too
    obsolete already.

    I wish I knew of a BBS in the Phoenix area who would be willing to pick up
    the SURVNET echo.  It is really excellent, I think.

    Message: 80027
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bimetalism
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:46:10

    BB> Arch, if you've ever explained how bimetalism is better than a plain
    BB> ol' gold standard, I missed it.  Can you elucidate or point me to an
    BB> earlier message?

    Well ... I haven't explained it because, frankly, I don't know the reasons
    why beyond historical experience.  I have no more than scratched the surface
    of that specific aspect of our problem; my focus has been more upon the
    overall scene.  I suspect it is because it prevents any group from achieving
    a monopoly on the medium of exchange.  The fact that silver works better as
    a street-level medium of exchange (it's hard to buy a loaf of bread with an
    ounce of gold; for example) and gold works better for international and
    large intranational payments may have a lot to do with it; the two
    substances play off against one another and prevent either from being
    abused.  I know the big problem in the late 1800's was (reportedly) the
    sudden upsurge in silver production compared to gold, but whether that was
    the real problem or a red herring, I don't know.  And if it was the real
    problem, I still strongly suspect (based upon this sort of thing ALWAYS
    being taken advantage of) that the eventual solution was more of an
    "opportunity" for the inflationists to get their foot in the door than it
    was a solution to any economic problem then extant.  Obviously the solution
    to the problem didn't solve the problem.

    Message: 80028
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Westlaw
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:46:57

    GL> I guess if I was REALLY interested I would have gone to ASU myself. I
    GL> wonder if there are electronic databases that can be used to do
    GL> searches ?

    Yes, there are.  The biggest and purportedly the best is WESTLAW, if you can
    afford horrendous access and on-line fees.

    Message: 80029
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Notes/checks 1/3
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:48:22

    FS> I'd be suprised if there was enough gold in existence to actually use
    FS> it as MONEY on a worldwide scale.  That, really, is why "notes" and
    FS> "checks" evolve in any country that has a thriving economy.  That,
    FS> really, is why "notes" and "checks" evolve in any country that has a
    FS> thriving economy.

    Well, not really.  "Notes" and "checks" don't evolve for lack of hard money;
    they evolve because people don't like carrying around much in the way of
    hard money.  It gets heavy and it's an invitation to highwaymen.  These two
    facts, however, are the main tools used by the bankers to convince people
    they should accept paper money and leave their real money in the bank where
    the banker can keep an eye on it.  In reality, the working people never
    benefit from such altruistic proposals; the only ones who benefit are the
    bankers and the large companies who don't have to dip into their profit
    margins to ship real money around the country.

    I have to add that the above is one of the most compelling reasons why the
    founding fathers restricted our economy to hard money:  as soon as the
    bankers get the people's money where they can keep an eye on it (and,
    incidentally, lend it out at usury for their own profit), then the bankers
    will devise schemes whereby they can lend out more than they actually have
    on deposit -- it is called "fractional reserve lending practices," and like
    most scams, starts out small.  Today, however, for every frn put in a

    Message: 80030
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Notes/checks 2/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:49:41

    savings account at a bank, the bank can lend out 9,000.  Does anyone wonder
    why banks and such are failing right and left these days?

    When there is a "lack of hard money," people tend to develop their own
    barter specie, and while it may be a substance of less stability than gold
    or silver, it will never be something as worthless as paper unbacked by
    intrinsic value.

    FS> An economy based strictly on MONEY would soon become throttled by the
    FS> logistics of it all.

    Once upon a time, the "logistics of it all" was a problem because of
    distances to travel and the slow transportation and the bands of indians and
    highwaymen awaiting manna from heaven.  However today, with air transport,
    fax machines, and communications of all kinds, it wouldn't be a problem at
    all.  Money would still have to be distributed from point to point, but not
    nearly as often as in the old days:  Regional banks could be set up around
    the country or around the world, commercial deposits could be kept therein,
    and computerized bookkeeping by modem keep track of accounts.  When Bank 'A'
    sends a wire transfer to Bank 'B', the books are updated accordingly.  Then
    Bank 'B' 'owes' Bank 'A' a certain amount.  But with the amount of
    commercial banking traffic going on today, within a few microseconds someone
    would cause Bank 'B' to send a wire transfer to Bank

    Message: 80031
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Notes/checks 3/3
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:50:54

    'A' which would cancel out the debt.  On the average, large sums of hard
    money wouldn't have to be transported from point to point at all.

    And there wouldn't be the constant shipments (of worthless paper money)
    there is now, because there wouldn't be any inflation and the money wouldn't
    physically wear out as fast.  There could still be sight drafts, wire
    transfers, cashier's checks, and even personal checks and paper money on a
    local basis -- but it would be backed to the penny by substance of intrinsic
    value, thus preserving the value of the labor of the private individual.

    An added feature would be the demise of the Illegal Revenue Service as the
    U.S. Gestapo, which exists for the sole purpose of robbing the people of
    their worthless paper money which they have received in exchange for their
    valuable labor, so as to prevent inflation from going hyper and so as to
    mask the inflation that does occur.

    Message: 80032
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: I.O.U.'s
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:52:16

    FS> You seem to have it backwards.  If and when the Fed Res NOtes are
    FS> called in it will not be ME that owes someone something.  It will be
    FS> the FEDS who owe ME a dollar.  It's their note, not mine.

    'Fraid not.  See my earlier message to Beau Dog.  What you say would be true
    only if you were lending the FED money -- and in reality, you could say that
    is what's happening (you are lending [actually giving!] them your labor);
    however, that isn't the position the FED or their pet criminals in Congress
    takes, and that's where the scam comes in.  You are giving them your labor,
    and in exchange for that privilege, they expect you (eventually) to cough up
    one dollar of intrinsic value substance to pay them for that frn you are
    using for money.

    It's a one-way street for them.  They have virtually nothing invested in the
    people, yet the people owe them absolutely everything.  The greatest scam in
    history!

    Message: 80033
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Scam
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:53:03

    FS> How do you figure I am gettng ripped off when I am using the same money
    FS> to buy and sell as everyone else.

    You are getting ripped off because in terms of real exchange value in the
    marketplace, your labor is worth less and less every day.  You see it as
    prices (and taxes!) going up, but what is actually occurring is that it
    takes more and more of your labor every day, every week, every year, to buy
    the same essentials of life.  (And the same is true of everyone else.  We
    are all being ripped off.)

    Message: 80034
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Value
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:54:00

    FS> You simply don't seem to understand the purpose of MONEY as a medium of
    FS> exchange.  MONEY, in and of itself, really doesn't have to have any
    FS> intrinsic value to serve it's intended purpose.

    It does if the people don't want to be ripped off by the money manipulators.
     If they don't want to be ripped off by the money manipulators, then they
    have to have a medium of exchange with an intrinsic value which cannot be
    easily manipulated.  We put serrated edges on our coins to prevent scam
    artists from shaving off silver filings (when our coins were silver!) and
    presenting coins for payment which are worth less than their face value.
    Surely you see the value in that ounce of prevention.  Why can't you see the
    value of a monetary system which prevents "one dollar" from being worth less
    and less each day you earn it?

    Message: 80035
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Inflation 1/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:55:19

    FS> If a person really wants to be truely wealthy they need to own someting
    FS> tangible, real estate, tobacco, corn, or even GOLD.

    Okay.  Let's suppose a friend comes to you and says, "I want to buy some
    property up in Prescott.  I need to borrow ten thousand dollars."  And you
    think, well, he's pretty reliable, and I have the federal reserve note money
    to invest, so I'll lend it to him at say, 5% interest with the principal and
    interest repayable over the course of a year.  Or five years, or ten years,
    or payable in a lump sum before ten years has passed -- whatever, it doesn't
    matter.

    So you lend the money and your friend buys the property and builds a house
    on it and moves his family in there and settles down and everything is hunky
    dory and now it is time for the payment of the note.  And he comes to you
    and says, "here's what I owe you," and he dumps a bushel of apples in your
    lap.  Or a bushel of tobacco plugs, alluding to your earlier Tobacco
    Standard message, or whatever.

    Are you going to be happy about that payment?  I think not.  So you go to
    court to sue him, and you find that gov't has passed a law making apples a
    medium of exchange, and the current rate of exchange is about ten thousand
    five hundred paper frns per bushel.  How about THEM apples, Fred?

    Message: 80036
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Inflation 2/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 19:56:14

    Or let's say he comes to you and dumps a bushel of federal reserve notes in
    your lap, and upon counting them you determine that yes, all ten thousand
    five hundred of them (principal plus interest) are there.  Only in the
    meantime, inflation has caused the price of apples to reach ten thousand
    frns plus interest per bushel.  Are you going to be happy about that?

    This is, of course, an extreme example.  But extreme or not, if the money
    you earn isn't worth as much a year from now as it was when you earned it,
    then you are being ripped off.  And the worthless paper frns you earned five
    years ago will not buy as much in the marketplace today as they would five
    years ago.  And the difference went to the foreign owners of the FED for
    operating the scam.

    Message: 80037
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Support
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:01:16

    FS> Just out of idle curiosity, why would *anyone* support a "gold"
    FS> standard given that for some people the "valuble" commodity that they
    FS> must have to use for money is not fairly distributed to all at the
    FS> beginning of the game??

    Because the transition would involve the re-backing of their current frns
    with gold or silver (I'm going to assume bimetalism rather than simply a
    gold standard).  Their next paychecks would be payable in real dollars;
    their current savings would be redeemable in real dollars, and future sales
    and purchases would be denominated in real dollars.  It wouldn't occur
    overnight, but the transition could be implemented in a fairly short period
    of time.  This would first require legislation ordering the U.S. Mint to
    purchase gold and silver for coinage (using seigniorage) and (perhaps) the
    perpetrators of this scam identified and their loot recovered.

    There would be turmoil, for sure -- particularly when the majority of the
    welfare bums discover they were going to have to produce
    something of value in the way of labor if they wanted to eat --
    but not nearly the turmoil which
    will occur if we continue on our current path.  If we continue on our
    present path there will be tremendous support for a standard of intrinsic
    value because people will have first hand knowledge of the dangers of
    worthless paper.  It will be ground into their minds by extreme hunger.

    Message: 80038
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Poker
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:02:39

    FS> Would you play poker if you had to buy your chips but your opponents
    FS> got their "free" from a hole in the ground?

    Yes, provided I was also free to look for a 'free' hole in the ground,
    and/or was free to provide my labor in exchange for chips of the same value.

    This is actually a rotten metaphor; gold and silver mining are not "free"
    and we are not talking about playing poker -- we are talking about getting
    paid in equal and valuable exchange for our labor instead of being paid in
    worthless script which decreases in purchasing power before it gets to the
    grocery store.

    FS> And at the end of the game you might lose your house to pay your "debt"
    FS> if YOU lost but if they lost they could just dig up a couple more chips
    FS> in the back yard??

    That, Fred, is the situation we all have *now*.  We've already lost our
    houses because we never paid for them with anything of value to begin with,
    and when our labor becomes worth so little that we can no longer pay for our
    houses, we will lose them -- and all THEY have to do is print more paper!

    Message: 80039
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Seigniorage
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:03:30

    FS> SOunds like just another way to spell screwing to me.  I can't beleive
    FS> you think that is a "solution"!!

    (Referring to seigniorage.)  I don't know why not.  It worked for 120 years
    prior to 1913.  Of course, that was when we have a *Constitutional*
    government that didn't try to be all things to all people and didn't try to
    run the country like a corporate management system instead of like a
    Constitutional Republic.

    Message: 80040
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Kitty, kitty ...
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:04:36

    FS> Yeah, sure, that's the standard answer - If you don't agree with me you
    FS> haven't done enough homework.  That's the same thing the christains
    FS> always pull when they can't defend their positions.

    I'm not sure exactly which message you are responding to here, but if it is
    the one I'm thinking of then it is not an accusation or a defense, it is a
    statement of simple fact:  You are going to know more about a subject if you
    study it than if you don't.  I was trying to encourage you to study it
    because many of the statements you have made are definitely erroneous and
    widely known (among those who have studied the subject) as erroneous, but it
    takes a certain understanding of the subject to see why.  Otherwise it's
    like trying to explain to my pet cat why I have to go to work:  from the
    cat's point of view there's no worry; there'll always be food in her dish
    and a warm lap to sleep on -- IF I'D JUST STAY HOME AND LET HER SLEEP ON IT!

    Message: 80041
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jury Null 1/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:05:59

    FS> (to James Matlock) I think you are correct - jury nullification is a
    FS> "right" inasmuch as there isn't much that can be done about it UNLESS a
    FS> jury gets carried away during the deliberations.

    So what if they get carried away during their deliberations?  I mean, short
    of a fistfight or spray-painting political slogans on the walls, what could
    the judge do about it if they did get "carried away"?

    Why do you think the judge is not in there supervising the deliberations?
    He's not in there supervising because the deliberations -- how the jury
    reaches its verdict, why, and what that verdict may be -- is none of his
    cotten-picking business.  Once the jury retires to the jury room, it is
    THEIR case.  The judge has nothing to say about it.

    I also want to address, briefly, the possible inference that a "right" only
    exists if there is nothing some authority can do about it.  Authorities can
    oppress rights, and often do, illegally, but that doesn't mean it isn't a
    right.  I have an inherited and unalienable right to keep and bear arms: ANY
    (personal) arms, any time, any place, concealed or openly carried.  ANY law
    restricting that right is null and void for want of subject matter
    jurisdiction.  Therefore I will exercise that right to the extent I alone
    feel is appropriate.  That right is not infringed upon until I am arrested
    and/or incarcerated for exercising it.  Merely prohibiting me from

    Message: 80042
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jury Null 2/2
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:07:23

    exercising it is not, in itself, an infringement.

    For a judge -- any judge -- to impose any sanction upon a juryperson by
    reason of the jury verdict or how it was reached would shake our legal
    system down to the foundations and would probably trigger off a revolution
    by itself.  They haven't yet chipped enough of that right away to get away
    with disposing of it altogether.  Nothing, with the exception of some
    ranting and raving, is going to happen as a result of jury nullification.

    This is a right and power which, like the right to keep and bear arms, must
    be exercised with the greatest care.  A friend of mine was once a juryperson
    on a serious aggravated assault case; the victim was the defendant's wife.
    However, the defendant's wife was not in court, and the prosecution made it
    clear that she would not be called as a witness and could not give
    testimony.  Yet the case was proved by the testimony of other witnesses.  My
    friend and the other jurypersons deliberated for some time, wondering
    whether they should let the guy off lightly or throw the book at him, and
    wondering why the victim was never called as a witness.  Finally they
    decided to throw the book at him, and they did.  Afterwards, they asked the
    prosecution why the wife wasn't called as a witness.  He answered "Because
    he murdered her the next day."  The defendant's murder trial was to be held
    in two months, and since it was a separate crime entirely, they couldn't
    even bring the issue up.

    Message: 80043
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:09:40

    I should add here that the Judge CAN and WILL charge a juryperson with
    misconduct if he or she discusses the case outside the juryroom or with
    anyone other than another juryperson.  That's a different issue.  Voting
    your conscience as a juryperson is not misconduct, regardless of how hard a
    judge tries to make it seem in advance that it is.

    HAVE A HAPPY TURKEY, EVERYONE!

    Message: 80044
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix/BB
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:54:31

    And I suppose you believe in George Bush as well. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Message: 80045
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Felix/Sexual
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 20:56:30

    Harassment. What if your 6 year old came home and announced that he had
    been harassed by a homosexual. Would you explain WHY the man acted as he
    did ? What a stupid question. Of course you wouldn't.

    Message: 80046
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Archi/WESTLAW
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 21:00:12

    WESTLAW. This conjures up Yul Brynner. Wait a minute. That's WestWorld.
    What are the access charges and fees ? Is there a number to call ?

    Message: 80047
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Inflation/frns
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 21:03:21

    re: lending money.
    That' why interest rates went out of sight when the inflation rate was
    roaring away in the 'teens. Over the long run, however, the borrower usually
    wins. That's why bond holders are generally losers.

    Message: 80048
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/yourAIDS msg.
    Date: 11/27/91  Time: 23:55:41

    Very well put.  Perhaps that should be published.

    Message: 80049
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Turkey Day
    Date: 11/28/91  Time: 00:00:04

    If anyone would be interested in a Turkey Day GT then meet me at Taco Bell,
    7th Avenue south of Indian School at noon tomorrow.  Gobble, gobble.

    Message: 80050
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AIDS
    Date: 11/28/91  Time: 00:08:32

    Everybody relax.  All it can do is kill us.

    You can still die in your sleep with AIDS.

    Okay, everyone pick their favorite way to die and try to stick to it.

    I pick a quick death, like a 100,000 ton piece of steel dropping center
    point on my head, without warning.  But then again I really can't say how it
    will happen but I can say that it will and that time is as good as now.

    In fact I ofttimes think that I died but there just hasn't been a FUNeral.

    Until then I will most probably, as least for a while, tell who ever I meet
    what a joke it is being a slave to a physical body.  I tell them that there
    has to be a better form of life and that I am going to find it.

    I think AIDS is the biggest joke of late.  There has been some quite clever
    and quite deadly viruses going around for eons.

    Message: 80051
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: small children & sex
    Date: 11/28/91  Time: 00:37:43

    When I was a little boy, somewhere around my 7th year, a man who was
    parked in a car called me over to his window and removed a cloth from
    his groin area, exposing himself to me.

    My immediate reaction was to run and tell my mommy who in turn called
    the local police who took him away.  My mother asked of what would
    happen to this man and she was told by one of the policemen that he
    would probably get a year at the Workhouse.

    My Mother did not have to explain to me that this was way out of the
    accepted ordinary, I instinctively knew.

    She never did explain sex education to me nor did my school offer any
    such thing.  But I knew what the accepted norm was because I lived in a
    house and grew up in a family of non-deviates.

    I think that parental attitude rubs off on children more than one may
    realize.  It is more important to show love and support to a child
    than to tell them about butt intercourse and how to use a smelly
    condom.  I still think that they are capable of causing some terrible
    maladies simply from their composition.  But then again I have shares
    of National Condom so buy lots.

    Public Bulletin Board command:JN

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