### Apollo BBS Archive - December 1 - 2, 1989

    Message: 61557
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: major CRASH!
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 05:28:14

            Apollo had a major Hard-Drive failure last night...  It went up in
    smoke!   All data was lost.   I went into a panic trying to get a backup
    from floppy....  (October 13th)  The sad part, is this drive that I put it
    on was of questionable value as it was, failed again a few hours later. I am
    afraid it is not going to last...  Anyone know who has a new Segate 225
    cheap?   I do not have any suppliers who carry that.   HELP!!!!!

            If you find you are not on a SIG that you belong on...leave me
    mail.  However, if we don't get a new Hard-Drive, it may be in vain.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    The end may be near!   Sniff!

    Message: 61558
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Children/Hell
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 06:39:48

    The Bible does not say where an unbaptized baby goes when it dies. It is
    wrong for anyone to speculate on any topic related to Yahweh that is not
    mentioned in the Bible. And it is true that someone can appear to make the
    Bible say anything - but only to someone who does not know their Bible.
    Context is of the utmost importance.

    Message: 61559
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Cath./Rosary
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 06:44:37

    I'm not attempting in any way to bash Catholics here, but I was flipping
    across the dial the other day and heard a rosary broadcast. It almost
    frightened me the way it sounded. It was all recited from memory and very
    cold and impersonal sounding. (Then again, it might have been the priest
    conducting the service.) But the unbiblical emphasis on Mary in the "Holy
    Mary" prayer (which was prayed repeatedly through the service, and exactly
    ten times more often than the Lord's Prayer) and it's reference to Mary as
    the "mother of God," was very disturbing.

    Message: 61560
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Lutherans
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 06:48:58

    If you are meaning that they implied that Luther was a first-century figure
    in church, they were wrong. He did expose a lot of unbiblical teachings that
    were going on at the time (esp. the selling of indulgences, etc.) and did a
    lot of reforming of the church body. But we (as Lutherans, myself being one)
    as a Lutheran church, were not around during first century times. Perhaps
    you misunderstood him, or maybe he himself was severely misinformed.

    Message: 61561
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 07:53:23

     Anything that is recited from rote memory consists of so many words without
    spirit, at least in my opinion. That same symptom was one of the reasons for
    my departure from the Lutheran church many years ago. By the time I was 12,
    I knew the Common Service book by heart, every service, every Scripture,
    every prayer. It all meant little or nothing. Tha lack of spirit in any
    service can be very disturbing, to say the least.

    Message: 61562
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 07:59:00

     Did you forget to restore JT's SIG?
     Sorry about the crash, but when you measure it against the length of time
    that Apollo has been trouble free, it isn't bad.

    Message: 61563
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Columbus,Christopher
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 08:40:38

    The discoverer of the New World, Christopher Columbus (in Spanish Cristo'bal
    Colo'n) was one of the greatest mariners of all time, but his despotic and
    capricious administration of the West Indies, which he claimed for Spain,
    eventually resulted in his recall. The combination of an outstanding and
    highly imaginative mind with a temper so highstrung and autocratic that his
    thoughts, writings, and actions at times suggested a man just this side of
    delusion initially brought him honour and riches, yet in the course of time
    led to a tragic reversal of his fortunes.  From his next to last voyage to
    the New World the Admiral of the Ocean Seas and Viceroy of the Indies was
    returned in chains. After spending the remaining six years of his life in
    pitiable attempts to regain the splendour and vast possessions that had
    eluded him, he died in obscurity.
         ...
    He never went back to Genoa. He never wrote in any form of Italian--not even
    to his brothers or to Genoese persons and institutions--but always in
    Spanish.  He wrote in Spanish, even his own private notes, certainly three
    years before he came to Spain and the mistakes in his Latin are definitely
    hispanisms.  Columbus signed himself successively Colombo, Colomo, Colom and
    Colo'n.  The last was the form he himself came to prefer and wished to be
    used. He never took the traditional form of Columbus, not even when writing
    Latin. His brothers, also, in Spain and in the Indies, called themselves
    Colo'n and hispanicized their Christian names.  One explanation of all these
    facts is that Columbus came from a Spanish-Jewish family settled in Genoa.

    Message: 61564
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto's SIG
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 08:44:35

    ... is gone.  Too bad.

    Message: 61565
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT's Joint!
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 09:29:32

            That was not covered in my last backup....  It will be back as soon
    as JT gives me a list of categories again....   Sorry....
    I am having terrible problems with this drive.  It is losing files to
    nowhere?  Apollo may go down... fear not, it will return when I can afford
    another drive.  Hang in there!

    This could not have happened at a worse time, Christmas around the corner,
    HELP!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61566
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 10:23:13

    A - C - D - & E in my opinion. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61567
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl/Paul's message
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 10:35:31

    In message # 61559 to Paul, you used the words 'Frightening' and
    'disturbing' regarding the radio broadcast of the Rosary. Why would this
    bring these feelings within you? They are only people worshiping God in
    their way. It isn't exactly a pagan religion you know. This is what I mean
    about Christians bashing other Christians. I'll never understand it! Seems
    to me, as a Christian, you'd be glad to hear a religious broadcast in the
    light of what is usually heard. What's the problem? Do you fear for these
    people's souls or what? Frightening? How so? I've ask this a million
    times... "just prove their wrong and you are right and tell me how you know
    it"!! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61568
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Catholics again
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 10:42:52

    I do not recall that when I was a Catholic and prayed by rote that is was
    not a spiritural feeling. Regardless of the prayer, I was always sincere and
    found great comfort in it. We took pride in learning all the prayers by
    heart - which, to say the least, was many. This showed faith and persistance
    to learn. When we prayed, we were aware of God - not just saying the words.
    The same applied when I was a Lutheran also. Where do you get your
    information about Catholics? BTW - the word 'rote' should be replaced with
    'ritutual' instead. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61569
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans Glans & others
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 11:02:39

            I did not delete your posts...  I tryied very hard to save them off
    the destroyed drive.  I worked on it for hours and could not find a single
    BITE of data.   I thought those posts were just great...  and I do feel bad
    for all the hard work put in by the users posting.  I was up almost all
    night on this thing... I am exhausted!

            If I had only known... I would have made a backup yesterday morning
    before the big CRASH!   Hardware such as Apollo's hard drive gets a workout
    on line 24 hrs a day, for years at a time, something is bound to give now
    and then.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61570
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Cliff's Hard Drive
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 13:50:32

         I sat at the booth in Tokyo Express, mixing some chicken
    ("Onagashemas!") into my curry bowl.  Cliff's hard drive sat across from me,
    voraciously eating a sushi set.
         "Gosh, you're hungry!" I said.
         "CHOMP CHOMP," it replied, its panel byte-ing down on seaweed and rice.
         "You'd think you'd be full after all you ate on Apollo.  Jeesh!"
         Cliff's hard drive stopped eating and slowly raised its glance to meet
    my eyes.  "Don't talk to me about Apollo, you geek," it said.  "I'm sick of
    that CRAP, it sucks freon.  Pass the pepper, please."
         Just then, Cliff stormed in.  "There you are, jerk!  Couldn't get
    enough, could you?  Binge and purge--binge and purge!  I hate you!  I own
    you, damn it--get it through your thick Segate 225 HEAD!  *=* the 'Pissed'
    Apollo SYSOP *=*"
         The hard drive just stared, its green eyes aglow with anger.  "Welly
    well well," it said.  "Maybe if you'd feed me something a bit more
    nutritious, I wouldn't have to raid the bulletin box, mmmmm?"
         "He's right, you know, Cliff," I had to add.  "Bible-thumping,
    ignorance, and ad hominem assault the tastebuds after a while, you know?"
         "Get real, ZAK!!!  The founding fathers were Christians, MLK was a
    trouble-maker and anyone who dislikes Columbus is a JERK!!!!!!  Say, what's
    that you're eating?  Smells good."
         "Curry.  Want some?"
         "Sure, Zak!  Mmm.  Yum.  Thanks, guy!"
         So the three of us sat down and had a good meal together.  The end.

    Message: 61572
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 16:08:26

    Hold up Evan Mecham.

    Message: 61573
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 16:59:45

    Why hold up some who is broke?

    Maybe a Senator that has connections with Lincoln Thrift... or a Clown!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61574
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff's H.D.
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 17:17:35

    You have two options, Cliff:

    (1) You pay $135.00 and get it fixed w/ 90 day warranty.

    (2) You go down to Hard Drives International in Tempe and buy a new one.

    If you go anywhere else, you'll pay more. They all end up buying the Hard
    Drives from this place in Tempe anyway.

    Message: 61575
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Fixed WORM drives
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 17:21:17

    Heh heh, just wait till the low-cost solution to optical memory
    comes out and slogs the WORM drives in the face.
    Then watch hard-drives (conventional) come crashing down in value.
    I just got off the phone today with another engineer in CA and one
    at a time, they've all said that each of their companies are sooooo
    close to making the R/W optics that by the end of next year you should
    be seeing wholesale optical disks.

    So Cliff, If you can wait....

    Message: 61576
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on drive...
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 18:51:44

            As protective as I am of the data, passwords, and private mail that
    makes up Apollo...I would NEVER send it out to a clean room for repair.
    I know a guy that works on drives...  and if you knew him, you would not
    send him yours either.

            Replacement is what is about to happen in the next few hours!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61577
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Behold......
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:04:13

            Apollo has a *BRAND-NEW* Hard drive and is back on line as of
    20:55:00 11/30/89.   That is almost exactly 24hours since the BIG CRASH!

            If you run into any bad files (such as ownloads) please tell me.
    There are several hundred files that make up Apollo.

            I guess Sandy and I eat hotdogs and beans the rest of this month,
    but it is worth it.  The drive was only $244.34 (bottom line) + time!

            Okay.....Let's get the show on the road!

    And anyone interested in helping out.... feel free to send your not
    deductible donation to the address found in tha ain menu.   What would
    even be nicer is 20 or so new users joining Apollo.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61578
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rote Memory
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:21:59

    Recitation without conscious thought is not purely the fault of a liturgical
    service. It is due largely to the person who lets it become routine. During
    the liturgical portions of the service, I always read along from the Service
    book, making sure I'm consciously thinking about what I'm saying or what is
    being said. I must say that I am pleasantly surprised by our new church
    home. The pastor often creates original liturgies (printed in the bulletins)
    to keep the service fresh and alive. And he has a way of keeping you riveted
    to the words during the service. My personal opinion is that an orderly and
    meaningful liturgical service can be a profoundly beautiful experience, and
    depending on the person participating (if they are concentrating on the
    service, and not merely rattling off memorized words) it can be an spirit-
    ually fulfilling experience. Prior to my membership in the Lutheran Church,
    I belonged to a Church of Christ, and upon recent return to a CoC with a
    friend, I found the service to be very disjointed, unprepared, and hard to
    keep the attentions focused on. However, this is my own personal opinion,
    much as your opinion of the Lutheran service. (And BTW, I wasn't implying
    that CoC was your affiliation...that is, if it isn't.)

    Message: 61579
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Rosary/Etc.
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:35:15

    Somehow I knew this was coming. State a personal opinion, and get accused of
    "bashing." I could go into my reasons for why I believe the Rosary is
    contrary to Biblical teaching, but in doing so, I'm sure I'll receive more
    accusations. Ann, the Bible tells us not to blindly accept anything that
    carries the label of Christian (and this includes the recent rash of
    "Christian" psychics, spirit-mediums, astrologers, and numerologists. And
    I am certainly not in any way trying to tie these in with Catholicism.
    What I am trying to say is that we are told in our Scriptures to test
    anything that claims to be from God, to make sure that it IS of God. God
    does not tell us to simply follow our own path or find our own reality or
    seek our own truth, whatever it may be...etc etc. I am sure (and I believe I
    quoted previous) that it could have been due to the priest that was
    administering the service at the time that I got an uneasy feeling about the
    way that it sounded. My main objection to the Hail Mary prayer is that it
    refers to Mary as the "mother of God," which is false. Mary is the "mother
    of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, the eternally-begotten Word, made flesh.
    Mary did not give birth to God, which would make Mary the creator of God,
    which would bring into question how the Creator could create and then be
    created Himself. Do you get my point? I am certainly glad that Christian
    programming is available, and I listen to some of it myself. But I am very
    selective about what I listen to, making sure that it is in harmony with
    Scripture. Now I took great pains in expressing in my previous post that it
    was my opinion. I was not imposing it upon anyone else. Call me a "basher"
    if you want, but in turn that makes you a "basher" as well. *wink - grin!*

    Message: 61580
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ooops: Question/Ann?
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:36:24

    Which Lutheran church did you go to?

    Message: 61581
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Holding Up
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:37:40

    Try Tammy Faye...or Imelda. I'm sure we could always resell her shoes and
    make a handsome profit.

    Message: 61582
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 21:39:37

    New hard drive, huh? And you're willing to corrupt it so soon with our rot?

       \ |
       o_O
      -( )-
        U   Aaaaack!

    Message: 61583
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Chris Baby
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 22:41:46

    Columbus discovered America by prophecy rather than by astronomy. "In the
    carrying out of this enterprise of the Indies," he wrote to King Ferdinand
    and Queen Isabella in 1502, "neither reason nor mathematics nor maps were
    any use to me: fully accomplished were the words of Isaiah"--referring to a
    more or less apposite passage in Isaiah 11:10-12--and, in fact, any writing
    became prophetic in his eyes when it could be interpreted as a forecast of
    his discovery.
        ...
    The idea of reaching the East by sailing westward seems first to have been
    mooted by the Florentine cosmographer Paolo Toscanelli.
        ...
    In 1478 he [CC] married Felipa Perestrello e Moniz, a member of one of the
    first families of Portugal; by this marriage, Columbus had a son, Diego,
    born in 1479 or 1480.
        ...
    But though he studied Ptolemy--whose misconception of the extent of Asia
    further strengthened his belief that Asia could be reached by travelling
    westward--and must have known Toscanelli's opinion, the system of ideas he
    elaborated owed most to the apocryphal biblical Second Book of Esdras (see,
    for example, II Esd. 3:18). These ideas were: (1) the Earth is round; (2)
    the distance by land between the edge of the West (Spain) and the edge of
    the East ("India"--i.e. Asia) is very long; (3) the distrance by sea between
    Spain and "India" is therefore very shot; (4) the length of a degree is 56
    2/3 miles. These "miles" were not Arabic (1,975.5 metres), which would have
    been remarkably accurate, but Italian (1,477.5 metres), which made his
    Equator about one-quarter too small. Columbus calculated that the land
    distance between Spain and "India" was 282 degrees; he was therefore left
    with only 78 degrees for the sea distance, which he further reduced by his
    method of reckoning the degree.  The outcome of all these erros was that
    "India" would be about 3,900 miles (6.275 kilometres) from the
    Canaries--i.e., more or less where America happens to be. This tallied
    tolerably well with II Esdras 6:42, where it is asserted that the Earth is
    six parts dry land and one part sea.
       ...
    The monarchs then decided to set up a special commission of "learned men and
    mariners" to study Columbus' proposals.  This commission, under the
    chairmanship of the queen's confessor, Hernando de Talavera, then bishop of
    A'vila, made him wait four years. This was not, as is often asserted,
    because the commission was either incompetent or backward in its views but
    because Columbus was vague and secretive as well as incoherent.
        ...
    ... he was granted the privilege of being lodged and fed at public expense
    on his travels to court.  During this period he became entangled with
    Beatriz Enri'quez, who was to be the mother of his son Fernando.
        ... (on to the first voyage)
    More than 1,000,000 maravedis had been supplied by the crown, though the
    story that the queen pawned her jewels to provide the money is quite untrue.
    (more later)

    Message: 61585
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: Daryl/rot
    Date: 11/30/89  Time: 23:24:06

            You are complaining about Cliff helping in the 'rot' department?

    You have the honor of being the first BBS user to use this 'virgin' hard
    drive.

    You devil, you! ......................

    Message: 61586
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: All is well...
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 00:34:09

            Good night Bullwinkle!

    Message: 61587
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Christopher Columbus
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 01:38:52

    At the ASU library (Arizona's largest) tonight I found over 75 books dealing
    with Columbus, at least 1/3 of which acknowledge his involvement (and
    exploitation of) the Arawak Indians.  I made some photocopies proving this,
    (that make it all very clear) which I will be happy to present at a future
    GT.  Shenkman is not the only man to expose negative aspects of Columbus's
    career.  (If you doubt me, go to the library and see for yourself.)

    Again:  Columbus forced the Arawaks  (who were peaceful and had no means of
    defense) to contribute gold on a regular basis; those who did not contribute
    were often maimed (by the cutting off of a hand) or killed.  Columbus's
    mistreatment of the the Arawaks led to their extinction, from a population
    of over 150,000 to virtually zero.  The only known remains of the Arawaks
    are the interbred descendents of about 500 Arawaks who are thought to have
    escaped.

    Think about it:  Columbus is responsible for more deaths than Charles
    Manson, John Wayne Gayce and Ted Bundy combined--several hundred times over.

    [By the way, Beauregard, the queen did not donate her jewels, but it is true
    that at one point she offered to donate them.]

    Message: 61588
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Question?
    Subject: pre-crash debates
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 01:52:31

    To Paul, Cliff, Bob, etc.:

    The Constitution of the United States and the Bible have nothing in common,
    and the former is in no way based on the latter.  I can't understand why you
    make such a claim, but I'd like to hear your justification for it.

    Also, I do not believe that the founding fathers were Christians, or that
    this is a Christian nation.  I will grant that most of them were religious,
    but that is not the same thing.  Cliff, you mentioned that Sandy had some
    evidence proving that our founding fathers were Christians -- let's see it.

    Message: 61589
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 05:35:16

    Rote and ritual are not necessarily interchangeable Ann. Rote is that which
    is learned by repetition. Ritual is form or ceremony which never changes.
     If someone who does nothing more than repeat the same words over and over
    every time they go to church receives comfort from that routine, I have no
    problem with them. To each his own. My personal experience with such rituals
    is simply that, after so many thousands of repetitions, the words become
    just that, words. No real meaning, no real spirit, no heartfelt emotion.
    Just words.
     Aside from the fact that in virtually all major denominations, traditions,
    rites and rituals have become more highly emphasized, I have no problem with
    those people who choose to attend such churches. In the final analysis, it
    matters little which church one attends. What marks the Christian experience
    is the change in the lives of those who have come to know Christ as Lord of
    their lives. As the Apostle Paul said, "Old things are passed away. Behold,
    ALL THINGS become new." Becoming a Christian is a life changing personal
    experience, not a matter of joining this church or that church.
     Someone once said that being in a church makes you a Christian about as
    much as being in a garage makes you an automobile. Lot of truth there, eh?

    Message: 61590
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/clown holdup
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 05:41:50

     You can have everything I've got except my makeup and costume!
     Let's see now. There are a few animal balloons left from my last party,
    some magic tricks, a few bottles of face paint a monkey puppet who would
    miss Freddie terribly, and an old, well worn suitcase. All told, if you
    could find a pawn broker stupid enough, you might get $1.98 for the lot.
     Oh yes! Almost forgot! I also have a ball of string. You know, the kind
    used for keeping helium balloons tied down. Raise the ante to $2. 25.

    Message: 61591
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thanks Cliff!
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 05:51:32

     Since nobody else has been thoughtful enough not to take Apollo for
    granted, I'll take the opportunity to say thanks many times to Cliff for
    thinking enough of this BBS and it's users to spend the money for a new
    drive to keep the system on line.
     So many times we all log on here, expecting Apollo to be reliably here for
    us, we tend to forget that there's no free lunch, even on BBSes.
     Thanks Cliff, and God bless.

    Message: 61592
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/basher
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 08:33:29

    Perhaps basher was a too harsh of a word. Lets say I don't understand why
    all that should bother you - Christians praying in their own way.

    In my opinion, Mary is the mother of God - Jesus was both God and man - she
    gave birth to him - carried Him in her womb for nine months - suffered pain
    when He was born, etc. He was never just man or never just God. As far as
    worshiping her - it's not my cup of tea - but I can understand it. It
    doesn't disturb me or frighten me in the least. That is what's puzzling
    about your post. Those two words. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61593
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl.church
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 08:37:43

    I belonged to the Missouri Synod Lutheran church in La Puente Calif. It was
    called the Holy Cross. The reason I liked it so well, it resembled the
    Catholic church in many ways - some ritual, but got down to more basics than
    the C.C. did. It had a heck of a Bible study class also - twice a week. The
    pastor made everything interesting - you really listened to his sermans.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61594
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/on rot
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 08:40:19

    How can you call it rot with all these imformitive Columbus posts -
    including your own? I've learned more about him this past week than all the
    years in school. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61595
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on Apollo
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 08:45:03

    I agree with Paul - it was scarey to think Apollo might not survive the
    crash. I too was thinking it'd be here forever. Thanks for healing it Mighty
    Sysop. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61596
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 09:34:12

    Yes, Cliff, we _do_ appreciate your selfless sacrificing for our casual
    amusement!!!  Actually, if Apollo went away there are a lot of um who would
    have a real empty spot in our lives.  Do keep up the good work!  Thanks!

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 61597
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Paul,Ann & Gary
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 11:07:43

            Why thanks guys...    (as the Old SysOp blushes)

            It was money well spent....  ( now the $#(#!%& thing better last)

                                    Ha ha ha ha

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61598
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Eaves Dropping
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 11:13:49

    Phoenix Repulsive:

            "If I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated
    black, because I believe they do have an actual advantage."
                                            - Donald Trump

    Message: 61599
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 11:43:33

    So?

    Message: 61600
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Trump
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 15:55:08

    [From the December issue of SPY:]

        Last fall, in the course of a television interview about race relations,
    Donald Trump (apparently speaking as an expert on the attitudes of really
    rich, really white guys from Queens) spoke with characteristic sensitivity,
    saying, "If I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated
    black, because I believe they do have an actual advantage."  A Manhattan
    office-temporary agency interested in sending clerical workers to The Trump
    Organization responded to a call from the Organization by sending a
    representative to meet with a Trump employee.  After a brief discussion
    about the various qualifications of the agency's employees, the Trump
    executive made things simple:  *Don't send us black temps*, the executive
    explained.  Some more astonishingly overt racism followed, but a spokeswoman
    for Trump denied to SPY that her boss has any such policy.  Indeed, she
    added, "We have a new [black] gal [and] I think we have another one still
    with us."

    Message: 61601
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: Oct 13th
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 16:16:10

            October 13th was when I had made my last backup to floppy of Apollo.
    As Sandy SysOp pointed out to me...that was a 'FRIDAY the 13th'.....

                            Spooky...  the beginning of the end

            Twilight Zone music off in the distance

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61602
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: Barn Door
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 18:47:07

            I made a full floppy disk backup of Apollo.  That was 324 files!

    I hope I won't need it!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61603
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Noble Rot/Sandy
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 19:08:14

    Speaking of rot, my tooth hurts.

    Ouch.

    Message: 61604
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mary/God
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 19:15:50

    Yes, Jesus was, is, and will be, true God. He took upon his dual nature upon
    coming into Earth in the flesh. The Word did not stop being God simply
    because he took upon human form. God is uncreate; thus the only aspect of
    Christ that was "born" was his human aspect; his visible body. To say that
    Mary is the mother of Christ, I would have no problem with that. To say that
    she is the mother of God, that I do have difficulty with. "God" is not
    simply the Son, or the Father, or the Holy Spirit. God is the Father, Son,
    AND Holy Spirit. Mary was a righteous woman, and probably one of the most
    respected and revered women in the Bible, but she was certainly not deity (I
    have references to back myself up here). Prayer or worship to Mary is
    idolatry, as we are told there is only one mediator, and that is Christ.
    Comments?

    Message: 61605
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Lutheran
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 19:16:50

    I guess I could say the same about the church I am now attending. The pastor
    definitely keeps your attention, and the Bible study classes are
    outstanding.

    Message: 61606
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Trump
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 19:19:52

    Trump makes me want to vomit my entrails. (ahem) Excuse me, let me rephrase
    that. That man is so wealthy, so powerful, so offensively well off, and so
    influential, it makes me sick. I think it is rather prophetic that the only
    thing that would make him better in his own self-important eyes...he CANNOT
    buy with all the putrid cash he owns. And I don't think that his smug little
    "rich-kid" smirk would look too good were he to have a darker visage.

    Message: 61607
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 20:57:46

    The categories for s Personal Domain are nswer, hit Chat,
    ootball, ietzsche quote, uestion?, and omania.

    Message: 61608
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT's domain
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 22:58:35

    Don't forget izza

    Message: 61609
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: more Chris
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 23:10:40

    On October 6 Pinzo'n [partner and pilot of the "Pinta"] suggested altering
    course again to the southwest; but Columbus was too proud to listen. The
    next day the "Nin~a" again "saw" land, but it was another illusion. Flights
    of birds all southwestward, however, made Columbus swallow his pride and
    follow Pinzon's advice (October 7). "All the night they heard birds
    passing," and carved sticks and reeds, picked up, gave them comfort and
    hope. Two hours after midnight (October 12) a sailor saw land from the prow
    of the "Pinta".
       ...
    For a fortnight he wandered among lovely islands to which he gave Spanish
    names, hoping "the Lord would show him where gold is born," yet already
    alive to the possibilities of what would now be called economic development.
    He even though of slavery. In his mind there seemed to combine and struggle
    the two different strains that, curiously enough, appear in his name:
    Christbearer; colonizer. He raised crosses everywhere, but he kept an eye on
    the material value of things even to the extent of seeing men as goods for
    sale. His honeymoon with the islanders may have ended on the day when he
    removed by force seven of the inhabitants of Guanahani'.
       ... (now back in Spain just after the first voyage)
    Wealth and honour were, indeed, his. He nevertheless insisted on being
    paid the prize of 10,000 maravedis promised to the first man of the crew to
    see land.  The humble sailor who actually had first sighted land went over
    to Morocco in disappointment and became a renegade. This episode sheds some
    light on a side of CC's character that was to bring him much unhappiness.

    (second voyage)
    He decided to return to Isabella [island] just because he made up his mind
    that Cuba was the mainland, which he forced everyone in his squadron to sear
    to on oath, under pain of having their tongues torn out should they recant.
       ...
    But, alleging that the natives were restive, Columbus and Bartolome' [one of
    his brothers] left Isabella on March 24, 1495 to "pacify" them--in fact, to
    take prisoners who could be justified as slaves. After the natives were
    defeated, Columbus sent his trusted messenger Torres back to Spain with a
    report, together with his brother Diego and 500 prisoners.
        ... (third voyage)
    On a later landing on the Paria Peninsula, the sight of native women wearing
    pearl necklaces caused great excitement among the Spaniards, who saw in it
    proof that they were indeed in the Orient. Columbus had, however, time to
    observe that the gulf received huge and powerful currents of fresh water
    from what were, in fact, several mouths of the Orinoco River. On this
    observation he built up his fantastic theory that he was at the mouth of one
    of the four rivers of paradise, situated at the top of the earth, the earth
    being not round but pear-shaped.
       ...   Reluctantly and slowly the king and queen had come to the
    conclusion that Columbus was a good admiral but a bad governor.
       ...   There are strong reasons for thinking that the final decision to
    let him go was because of information the sovereigns had obtained of
    Columbus' obscure dealings, bordering on treason, with Genoese agents.

    ...  On the other hand, Columbus, now frustrated in his dreams of greatness
    in the New World, cast about for another grand work to achieve and found it
    in his biblical, prophetic mind: he would liberate Jerusalem. He did not
    need to consult cosmographers, merchants, or ambassadors. He read the
    prophets and having collected all the texts he could showing that Jerusalem
    would be liberated by Spain, he presented his _Book of Prophecies_ to the
    king and queen.
      (during the last voyage)  After more storms, mutinies, imprecations to
    God, and narrow escapes, he found himself derelict in a small cove in
    Jamaica (June 23, 1503) whence he wrote to the king and queen a truly
    magnificent letter, telling them of his perils, wanderings, dreams, and
    voices he heard from on high, in a style worthy of the Old Testament.

    [this is excerpted from _Encyclopaedia Britannica_.  The article is by the
    editors.  Works referenced do not include Shenkman, but do include the
    letters of CC himself. - Beau]

    Message: 61612
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Columbus day
    Date: 12/01/89  Time: 23:27:51

    Well, I'd say we need to suppress the story of the life of Christopher
    Columbus if we're going to continue to celebrate him.  He was hardly one to
    look up to -- he got lucky (because he had made errors and was very wrong)
    was paranoid, greedy to a fault, insensitive to the fates of other people,
    etc.

    Message: 61613
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Trump
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 03:26:55

    Sure, he has rather poor taste, but I'd rather have him own all of New York
    than the Japanese.

    Message: 61614
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Trump's quote
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 05:44:36

     Easy to say when you sit in the ivory tower he does!

    Message: 61615
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Daryl/61604
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 05:47:58

    Predictably, I totally agree with Daryl's position re: Mary's Scriptural
    stature.

    Message: 61616
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 05:54:25

     The Italian community aside,the bottom line seems to be what are we really
    celebrating on Columbus day? Are we revering the alleged feats of the man,
    or are we celebrating the discovery of this land we call home?
     The same question could be reworded concerning MLK day. Are we celebrating
    the work of the man, or the civil rights movement itself? Perhaps in both
    cases, a poor choice was made when it came to naming the day, but the spirit
    of holiday has a right to prevail in either event. Would you agree with
    that?

    Message: 61617
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 06:38:03

    God is ONLY the combination of the father, son, and holy ghost?  Really?  I
    thought the father was considered God, whether or not Jesus or Caspar are
    around.  But, as you say, if God is only the father combined with the other
    two entities, then what exactly is the father?  How is IT defined?  Or is
    God both the father alone AND the father in combination?  Who is this God
    guy anyway?

    Message: 61619
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on Mary
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 07:55:18

    The only comment I have to make is - you have your opinion and I have mine.
    I think we are all a diety!
    As far as praying to Mary as a mediator - I got over that a long time ago.
    But it doesn't bother me that other's do.  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61620
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 07:57:29

    "Don't forget Pizza"! Hahahaha - you are starting to be competition for Zak
    in the humor department! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61621
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau on Columbus
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 08:01:08

    To have his holiday costs the tax payers approx. 4 million dollars! Ditto
    MLK. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61622
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Nick/ Trump
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 08:02:04

    Why would you want him owning all of New York than the Japanese? Could be
    worse ya know. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61623
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/last
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 08:05:55

    "Caspar"?? Now that ought to offend a few - I found it outragiously funny.
    Next thing you know, with comments like that, you'll have your own sig like
    Rod's R.G.B. Heh heh. -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. And/or the Zone!

    Message: 61624
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: A Question?
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 09:33:31

            Does anyone have a good question they would like the $tatus users to
    be polled on?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61625
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/holidays
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 10:25:58

    Yes, I agree that the spirit of the holiday is what is important. I feel
    that the legislature made a big mistake in not combining Washington/Lincoln
    birthdays into President's day -- after all, Washington *did not want* his
    birthday celebrated, and Lincoln campaigned for president on the promise not
    to do anything about freeing slaves...

    Regarding CC: Don't forget the adultery, which even resulted in a child!
    (that is not directed at you, Paul.  Where is Mr. Thornburg, anyway?)

    Message: 61626
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: my idea
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 10:30:24

      [A]  Nadia Comaneci may no longer be jailbait, but she's still a fox.
      [B]  The Ukrainian Church will soon be allowed to continue its policy
           of supporting anti-Semitism as a result of the Gorby/Pope meeting.
      [C]  Charles Keating is scum and should go to jail.
      [D]  Cliff should religiously post the results of Votes after deleting
           them
      [E]  All of the Above
      [F]  None of the Above
      [G]  More than one of the Above

    Message: 61627
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/JT's Domain/Beau
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 14:18:44

    He wasn't kidding about [P]izza.

    As you would know if you were on the SIG.

    HB

    Message: 61628
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 14:19:41

    (Small bit of conceit, there.)