### Apollo BBS Archive - July 18, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:12:34

    Heh heh...I had already forgotten about the Oldsmobile Sierra.  When I think
    of "Sierra", I think of the Sierra Club (an environmental/hiking group)
    or Sierra On-Line (a software company).
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I think of the high Sierra Mountains, especially in Phoenix in July.
     2:
     3:Are we doing a 'job' on John?  He seems as though he has some fairly good
     4:intelligence although misdirected by early associations and what was once
     5:passed off as common knowledge.
     6:
     7:Take care.  There was something I wanted to say but forgot....I remember.
     8:
     9:Those posts that you liked about a 'planner', well when I put them up I
    10:understood what I was saying but the next day when I re-read them I figured
    11:that nobody would understand what the hell I was trying to say so I thought
    12:of zapping them.  Oh well.
    13:
    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 67609
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Message from Lippard
    Date: 07/17/90  Time: 21:47:52

    I think I will show up for the Apollo birthday GT.

    Message: 67610
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/17/90  Time: 22:03:31

    Good view on the incident.

    Message: 67611
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/17/90  Time: 23:51:00

    The witness's name was Bob Hess.  I don't know whether he is the one
    who is supposed to have disappeared or not.  Of course, he *might*
    have disappeared because one of those guys at Smitty's offered to
    practice the choke hold on him, so that he could do it better next time,
    He *did* say he was threatened, and warned to "stay... out of it".

    Message: 67612
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/new arrival
    Date: 07/17/90  Time: 23:54:13

    Glad you enjoyed making the birth a family affair.  Lots of fun, isn't
    it?  Not everybody seems to appreciate that aspect.  I hope at least
    one member of the family was detailed to take plenty of pictures.

    Message: 67613
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smittys / So far
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 00:15:45

    So far no one has addressed the issues here.
    All I see, save for a few, are romantic eulogies and apologies
    for both sides.
    One group thinks the management is responsible (no, only in the
    minds of filthy rich lawyers who go after the deep pockets,
    the people who detained him are responsible.)
    The other group thinks it was ok but it was such a pity he had to
    die (He didn't just die. He was murdered. Accidental manslaughter
    maybe...definitely not natural causes.)

    Well. Nothing new on either of those. Seems like folks want to avoid
    answering questions that might make them think a little.

    Par for the course.

    Message: 67614
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff / GT / Unsure
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 00:34:21

    Will have to see. If it is possible, I will make it.

    Daryl

    Message: 67615
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Gordon / 67582
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 00:38:01

        How credible is your "witness?" Has he/she given his/her account to the
    police?

        Does anyone know if and how one can get a copy of the police report?

    Daryl

    Message: 67616
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon / 67584
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 00:45:59

        Well, apparently he wasn't of sound mind, or else he wouldn't have
    threatened to kill the employees. The whole incident began with him; he was
    becoming known as an outstanding bad-check writer throughout the Smitty's
    chain; this wasn't the only store he wrote a bad check at.
        When confronted, he could have been the proper citizen and done what the
    manager asked, whether that meant agreeing to go with police or simply
    leaving per request. His response was to get violent and threaten to commit
    murder. Whether he had a gun or not was not the point. Try the same thing in
    an airport and see how quick you'll get tackled by security.
        I do not condone the actions taken by the employees, they were
    needlessly harsh. But at the same time, we can't write the instigator off as
    an angel. He was breaking the law (in writing bad checks), and he threatened
    to commit murder. Both illegal actions were instigated by him.
        Although I do not condone the actions taken, I am not surprised by them.
    Given the neighborhood in which that supermarket is located, I would assume
    that all the cashiers, managers and bagboys get edgy at times.
        In short, this guy was certainly no martyr, and I'm getting sick of
    seeing him being defended as such. He was a criminal.

    Daryl

    Message: 67617
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gary / Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 00:52:12

       But nothing happened until the man threatened the lives of two of the
    employees. If he had either gone with them, or left the store, whatever the
    manager wanted, none of this would have happened. Even if he had simply ran,
    chances are that none of this would have occured.
       But Haskins instigated the employees by his tough talk and threats. If
    you plan on trying to bluff in a situation like that, you better be prepared
    when your bluff is called.

    Message: 67618
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / 67605
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:03:28

       Rod, if you are accusing me of changing or altering your messages (apart
    from correcting a few misspelled words and adding reference numbers), you
    are mistaken. (Oh, and editing profanity to make the post ACCEPTABLE here.)
       In fact, I still have the original posts as you sent them to me in
    E-mail. If you want to look them over for yourself and compare them with the
    posts I uploaded, please feel free to ask and I will gladly mail 'em to you.
       I resent your insinuation that I had to change what you said in order to
    refute it.

    Daryl

    Message: 67619
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / 67607
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:04:04

    No, that's ok. I think I'll pass.

    Daryl

    Message: 67620
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/words
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:17:41

    I don't think pederastophobia would work.  The Greek root means literally,
    "lover of boys", and refers to people (usually men) who molest male
    children.  I believe that it would be grossly unfair to label homosexuals as
    pederasts.

    Message: 67621
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/Roger
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:21:25

    Roger won't show up.  The last time he attended a GT, it was like Agatha
    Christie's "And Then There Were None"; he killed off poor Rolf Springer, God
    rest his soul.  Drank his blood in the park in full daylight.  We stoned
    him, but apparently he (Roger) only feigned death.  Now, Von Helsing and I
    spend our days searching Scottsdale for his coffin.

    Message: 67622
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/sure, sure...
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:26:52

    Feh!

    What a phony baloney excuse!  I'm sure your wife isn't so petty that she
    feels you shouldn't have fun if she isn't having any.  In fact, I'd bet she
    would find such martyrdom foolish (not to mention completely out of
    character).  We all know that the real reason you won't show up is fear of
    stakes.  (I wracked my brain, but I can't come up with a "-phobia" term for
    that one.)

    Message: 67623
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 01:32:17

    I don't know the facts.  It is not clear at this time what motivated the
    employees, after the point where the man had been subdued.

    I agree that it is foolish to boycott the store.  As if the management sat
    around planning bad publicity.  I'm sure that their competition is happy
    about Smitty's loss of business; and being a cynic, I wouldn't be at all
    surprised if they had a hand in organizing the boycott.

    Message: 67624
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Morals
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 04:17:54

            At least as I understand the term, "close minded" doesn't seem to
    describe me too well, as I do change my mind from time to time.  If I was
    truly close minded, I'd still be a Mormon.
            Sure, society plays a role, but the golden rule is hardly the
    exclusive property of Christianity.  It's just a basic fact of human nature
    that if you do something for someone else, that person is more likely to do
    something for you.  There's nothing particularly alturistic about that.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 67625
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 04:18:48

            What really happened was that Ladmo went on a murderous rampage, and
    Smitty's is covering for him.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 67626
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/guest list
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 05:26:28

     Well, at least you now have some space between me and Williams. Thank you.
    My sympathy to Ralphie.

    Message: 67627
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/get married
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 07:55:53

    Get married and find out for yourself. I don't do this because I think my
    wife would object, but because I want to do it. It's not martyrdom it is
    sharing.

    Message: 67628
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 09:35:09

    Wait a minute... Sharing what?  You will be at home and she at work - you
    already aren't sharing anything.  You might as well have some fun and bring
    home a piece of cake to her and SHARE all the funny things that happened at
    the GT/work.
    Come on!  What are you afraid of?  Are you CHICKEN?!

    Message: 67629
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 09:36:07

    Wow.  Rod hit it pretty much on the head.
    Alan however had an interesting idea...

    Message: 67630
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 11:17:40

    Re:  "Any time you tie a rope around somebody's neck to restrain him, and
    you end up choking him to death, you used more force then nececary, atleast
    that is my opinion."

    That account wasn't in the paper.  Where did you hear it?  I must agree that
    to tie a rope tightly around someone's neck is a pretty stupid thing to do.
    Who would be stupid enough to do something like that?

    Message: 67631
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 11:23:07

    Re:  "If the bad check artist had been put in jail a long time ago, as he
    should have, this incident would never have taken place."

    An interesting thought.  Let's blame it all on the stupid judicial system.

    Message: 67632
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 11:29:05

    Re:  "because with 5 people sitting on the guy and him still dying"

    Fact: the guy didn't die until after the police had arrived and the
    paramedics had been called.

    After reading all the hoopla about Smitty's, I have come to the conclusion
    that 99% of the info here is gossip and rumors.

    Message: 67633
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod Williams
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 11:33:27

    Re:  "I did not witness the event first hand nor did I interview all parties
    involved."

    Rod, I am amazed!  You actually said something I totally agree with!  Your
    message number 67608 was the best posted on the Smitty's incident.

    Rod for president!

    Message: 67634
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 11:37:40

    Re:  "I agree that it is foolish to boycott the store."

    I say we buy the Apollo birthday cake at Smitty's just to show everyone
    where our heart is.

    Message: 67635
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last on Cake
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 12:22:18

            Thanks Bob, you don't realize how good that makes me feel since I
    already ordered the cake from Smitty's.

            Rod's post on Smitty's is one of his best posts ever...
    Rod for SysOp!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67636
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 13:21:29

    Oh, is somebody making the dead guy out to be an angel?  Certainly
    wasn't me.  I mean, he might be an angel *now*, but not before he got
    strangled.

    He was obviously a very dishonest fellow, not in proper control of his
    behavior, and a damn' fool as well (if you threaten to kill somebody,
    especially with a gun you don't have, you are asking for something bad to
    happen).

    My point was not to whitewash the dead.  My intention was to criticize the
    living.  I will admit that I'm not necessarily in possession of all the
    facts, so I can only make a judgment based on what I've heard and read.
    Obviously as more facts come out, I might be forced to change my opinion.
    That's why we deal with people based on trials in court and not in the
    newspaper.

    Some new material was reported in the paper today, based on another witness
    named Warren, and also on the statement of the store manager himself.  This
    does change my picture of what happened, because previously I had had the
    idea that Rankins threatened somebody inside the store, uttered his "Get the
    gun" remark, and was grabbed on his way to the taxi.  Now it appears that he
    was dragged out of the taxi after it had already started to move away.

    There was certainly a point in the situation at which the manager and other
    employees perceived a serious threat.  It seems, however, that that threat
    was already gone at the time they acted, because Rankins was urging the cab
    driver to drive away.  Am employee actually reached inside the cab to grab
    the ignition key when it had already started to move.  Since he was already
    running, they should have let him go and filed a complaint with police, or
    somebody properly *trained* to deal with such a person.  I think they hauled
    him out mainly because they were angry at him at that point and decided they
    didn't want to let him go *for that reason*, not because he still presented
    a deadly threat.  That's an amateur reason, not a professional one.  And
    with all those people to help subdue the suspect, I don't see why a choke
    hold had to be applied for five minutes.  I still think they used excessive
    force.  And I also think it's Smitty's management responsibility to ensure
    proper training, or at least policy, for dealing with these situation.

    Message: 67638
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Guest List
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 17:05:30

    Ann Oudin
    Beauregard Dog
    Bill Burkett
    Bob Thornburg
    Daryl Westfall (unsure)
    Gordon Little
    James Hawley
    Jeff Beck
    Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
    Jim Lippard
    Kim Paskiewicz
    Melissa Dee
    (( space ))
    Mike Carter  (Fang)
    (( space ))
    Mike Kielsky
    Pat Stoddard
    Paul Savage
    Ralph Blehm
    Rod Williams
    Shirley Bear
    Steven Carls
    Todd Reese                      And just maybe Jack Flash  (hope)

    Message: 67639
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 19:04:57

            Mad Max didn't get enough credit for his perception, because it is
    right on. IF the paper hanger were killed by several bumbling incompetents
    who reacted to what they percieved as a threat and exerted force on him to
    the extent that he later died, but without intending to kill him, that is
    one unfortunate thing.
            Jeff L takes exception to the fact that two of the employees were
    identified as having been Rangers, and that is an entirely different thing.
    Trained Rangers would know what they were doing, so it was homicide, perhaps
    murder.
            Trouble is, some soldiers got a week or two of Advanced Infantry
    Training, and thereafter call themselves Rangers. (They lie.) They are more
    trouble than help in most instances. I agree with the sentiment of Mad
    Max--I hope they were not Rangers; if they were, they sure flogged the dog
    that time.    --John C.--

    Message: 67640
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 20:06:12

    Well, he may be working that night but I let him know about it.  And I asked
    him to let Peter know but I may call and leave him a message anyway.  I
    think he has something happening at his gallery that night.

    Message: 67641
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's/Rankin
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 20:16:16

    Gordon, you're a bit off base this time.

    Reaching in to turn off the ignition, and subsequently removing the man from
    the car is not an act of retribution with deadly force.  It is attempting to
    detain a suspect to prevent said miscreant from leaving the scene of a
    crime.  What happened after (perhaps due to the suspect putting up a fight)
    was certainly, at the very least, unfortunate.  Until all of the facts come
    out (and they may not ever) we won't know if there was excessive abuse after
    or during the subduing (subduction?).

    Message: 67642
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: melissa/sharing
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 20:41:01

    Chicken ? nope. I've gone to parties and such while my wife has worked
    in the past, but I never have a good time. So, I'll wait until she is
    free so we can enjoy the doings together.

    Message: 67643
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last/Roger?
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 21:13:11

            Who said we were suppose to 'have a good time'?
    We are going to have a cake that comes from a store that murders the
    competition as they do customers.  Then we are going to burn Rod on the
    cross as we all sing "When the Saints Come Marching In".  While Rod's
    smoldering body cools off, we will have a (re-match) trivial game between
    Ann Oudin and Paul Savage.  B-Dog will bring the CD MUSIC selection since he
    complained about the music last GT held here. And on parting, everyone will
    take home a burnt piece of Rod to plant in their garden so we all may become
    farmers and grow corn.
            So, where did you get the Idea this was suppose to be fun?

    P.S.  The losers of the trivia game will all get a day in the PHANTOM ZONE.

    Now that it is not suppose to be fun...can you come?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67644
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/family
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:32:25

    We've had four babies at home.  Two of them were born within fifteen feet of
    where I now sit.  We did not take pictures other than mental ones for later
    review.

    Hospitals are a big impersonal pain in the rear and I should know having had
    our first four there.   Flourescent lights, yuk walls and shiny floors,
    strangers, no music and all sorts of scary instruments along with
    overworked, tired doctors and staff.

    I would dread having to drive there when Jasmine's water broke and a good
    friend of mine was driven there in an automobile and the baby started coming
    out and the cord was pinched.  The baby was a imbicile and I was relieved
    when it died at six months.

    Message: 67645
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/murder
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:37:38

    The man is dead.  It is now after the fact.  Nothing you do or say will
    bring him back to life to serve time for theft and drugs.

    Okay?

    Now, we have the living to think of.  Should we make criminals out of them?
    Lock them up forever because they will be of no use to society when they get
    out as nobody wants a ex-con to work in their company.

    Firing squad?  Hangman's rope, lethal injections or counselling in order to
    learn from the bad experience and get it far behind?

    Message: 67646
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/change
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:40:34

    I never meant that you changed the wording although I hand typed those
    messages to you and I did not, (did not) type the same line twice.  I was
    just saying that whatever mode you used to transfer them was sloppy, that is
    all.

    Message: 67647
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/you twit
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:45:33

    It sure sounds like a strange relationship that you and the wife have.  I
    have a wife too but I am going.

    She would want me to go.  She wants me to have fun so I will be happy.
    Smiles and good feelings are like diseases.  They spread easy.

    Stay home and be bored but if you don't show up then Jeff Beck and I will
    come over to your house and drag you away.

    Get real.

    Message: 67648
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob & Cliff
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:48:16

    Well since I am now President and Sysop then it is to thy Phantom Zone with
    you both and Pot is now legal.

    Thank you both.

    Message: 67649
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 22:52:09

    Since I am now SYSOP for the remainder of the day, could you please put my
    name on the Apollo B-Day list right next to Paul Savage's name.

    Thanks, I prefer the top.

    Message: 67650
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/burn me
    Date: 07/18/90  Time: 23:01:49

    I like being medium-rare.  Although after working outside all day I think
    that I am 'done' already.  So you won't have to cook me much.

    Speaking of cooking and the death penalty, wouldn't it be neat to build a
    big microwave oven to replace that old stupid electric chair or gas
    chamber?

    You wouldn't even need to monitor the person's vital signs as you'd just
    wait for them to explode.

    A timer incorportated into the oven would be nice because heavier people
    take longer.  Plus don't forget the little tray that spins.

    Litton would be a good company to approach on this if anyone out there wants
    to pursue the idea.  It's yours for the taking.

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