### Apollo BBS Archive - June 10, 1991

    Drugs... right or wrong?

    [A] I am for the legalization of marijuana
    [B] I am against legalization of marijuana
    [C] I am undecided

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 17   [B] 12   [C] 1

    NOTE: nearly 57% Yes, nearly 40%, No, and almost 3% undecided, BY ROD

    Main Menu command:P

    *=* Post Office entered *=*

    Mail from Steve Albany
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 13:11:16

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

            I don't have your number, silly.. And I wouldn't suggest leaving it
    on here (since my account is NON-$Tatus).. My number howevere is 277-xxxx..
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I don't think anyone would log on as Steve Albany except for you.
     2:
     3:My number is 277-xxxx.
     4:
     5:                                Rod
     6:end

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    Message: 4814
    Author: $ Chris Neal
    Category: HOT-SEX !
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 20:48:12

    So, just out of curiosity, how old is your boyfriend, assuming that you have
    one?  If not, how old would he have to be?    I founf it interesting that
    you know what you want.  My girlfriend just turned 22 on the 31st of May,
    graduated from NAU on the 10th of May, and doesn't have a clue on: Where she
    wants to live, what kind of job she wants.

    -Chris

    Message: 4815
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Kissing What?
    Subject: Roger Endangers!
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 08:07:38

    ] I admit I drove all the way home.

    Where's Ruben Ortega or Rick Romley when you really need them?

    (Hey, Ruben!  Don't let the door hitcha on the way out!)

    Message: 4816
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Pot Music
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 08:15:17

             I once tried playing music while under the influence of pot ---
    I had the strangest feeling in my fingers.

    Message: 4817
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: Roger you bad boy...
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 10:05:32

    ... getting high from playing with your organ. Why don't you get some
    marijuana?? You don't want to wear your organ out do you?
                         *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Message: 4818
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Shit-Chat!
    Subject: Ann/ My Organ
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 13:10:36

    }iActually, I didn't like marijuana when I tried it so I stopped. I much
    prefer alchohol for relaxing. In fact, I get so wired when I play I have to
    calm down so I don't make mistakes. Blood pressure medicine affects this.
    When I was taking Catapres, it made me feel nervous, so my playing suffered.
    Now, I am on Tenormin, a beta-blocker which slows me down (e.g, my heart
    rate is in the 50's)

    Hey, ain't this exciting talk for Cosmos sig ? Probably belongs in the Old
    Farts Sig --- but I'd rather pretend I am talking sexy here.

    Message: 4819
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Chris
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 18:32:57

    32.

    Message: 4820
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Ortega
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 23:23:46

    I can't believe it.  The City Manager actually convinced Ortega to take back
    his resignation.  I think that it should have been accepted, and then the
    stupid new regulations should have been rescinded.  Instead, we're at status
    quo ante.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EQ

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    Subject:Roger/fingers

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     1:Did it feel like your fingers were going to close us and never again open?
     2:end

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    Message: 1639
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: _Citizen Kane_
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 14:40:43

    I hope everyone who wanted to go remembers the GT tonight.  Meet at Cine
    Capri at 6:45.  I have about 6 friends that are showing up also so it should
    be quite a lot of people!

    Message: 1640
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Filmography
    Subject: tonight
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 15:52:18

    Cine Capri has switched the film's showing time to 7:30, instead of 7:10.
    I'll be there.

    Message: 1641
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: CITIZEN KANE
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 22:54:40

         I would have gone if not for the fact six of Melissa's friends were
    going to be there.  I met one of her friends many years ago and that was one
    too many.

    Message: 1642
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: C-Kane
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 23:04:01

            After the Rocket GT with all those strange people, I tend to shy
    away from other such GT's.  However, this is not the reason Sandy and I did
    not go.  Not feeling so great today, we fell asleep......

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- snoozing

    Message: 1643
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Junk Culture
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 03:12:58

    What sort of strange people were at the rocket GT?  I didn't notice anything
    strange about the people at the GT last evening.  Did it ever occur to you
    that lots of people think that BBSers are strange?

    The water was kind of warm, though.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 1789
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 15:59:02

    Paul is right...and you ain't even cute.

    Message: 1790
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff & Paul
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 10:10:12

    Rod is right and you're both wrong! All of you are cute though.
                           *>>> ANN O. <<<*

    Hmmmm... Rod always seems to be right! Why is that?

    Message: 1791
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Shut Up Already!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 20:43:28

    'cuz you and Rod both are wrong but cute isn't the answer.

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Paul/whesmoke

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:he nation would be taking a step
    19:backwards if this were to happen.
    20:(1 of 2)
    21:end

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    Subject:Paul

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:ng Columbus
     9:discovered America.
    10:                                        Rod
    11:end

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    Message: 2041
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Apro ?
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 23:25:28

    You forget to check this SIG?  Ever tried 'JN' at a command prompt?

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:JN

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    Message: 75644
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 12:09:53

    From A People's History of The Unied States, by Howard Zinn:

    Robber Barons and Rebels

    In the year 1877, the signals were given for the rest of the
    century: the black would be put back; the strikes of white
    workers would not be tolerated; the industrial and political
    elites of North and South would take hold of the country and
    organize the greatest march of economic growth in human
    history.  They would do it with the aid of, and at the
    expense of, black labor, white labor, Chinese labor,
    European immigrant labor, female labor, rewarding them
    differently by race, sex, national origin, and social class,
    in such a way as to create separate levels of oppression --
    a skillful terracing to stabilize the pyramid of wealth.
      Between the Civil War and 1900, steam and electricity
    replaced human muscle, iron replaced wood, and steel
    replaced iron (before the Bessemer process, iron was
    hardened into steel at the rate of 3 to 5 tons a day; now
    the same amount could be processed in 15 minutes).  Machines
    could now drive steel tools.  Oil could lubricate machines
    and light homes, streets, factories.  People and goods could
    move by railroad, propelled by steam along steel rails; by
    1900 there were 193,000 miles of railroad.  The telephone,

    Message: 75645
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 12:21:28

    the typewriter, and the adding machine speeded up the work
    of business.
      Machines changed farming.  Before the Civil War it took 61
    hours of labor to produce an acre of wheat.  By 1900, it
    took 3 hours, 19 minutes.  Manufactured ice enabled the
    transport of food over long distances, and the industry of
    meatpacking was born.
      Steam drove textile mill spindles; it drove sewing
    machines.  It came from coal.  Pneumatic drills now drilled
    deeper into the earth for coal.  In 1860, 14 million tons of
    coal were mined; by 1884 it was 100 million tons.  More coal
    meant more steel, because coal furnaces converted iron into
    steel; by 1880 a million tons of steel were being produced;
    by 1910, 25 million tons.  By now electricity was beginning
    to replace steam.  Electrical wires needed copper, of which
    30,000 tons were produced in 1880; 500,000 tons by 1910.
      To accomplish all this required ingenius inventors of new
    processes and new machines, clever organizers and
    administrators of the new corporations, a country rich with
    land and minerals, and a huge supply of human beings to do
    the back-breaking, unhealthful, and dangerous work.
    Immigrants would come from Europe and China, to make the new
    labor force.  Farmers unable to buy the new machinery or pay
    the new railroad rates would move to the cities.  Between

    Message: 75646
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 12:31:27

    1860 and 1914, New York grew from 850,000 to 4 million,
    Chicago from 110,000 to 2 million, Philadelphia from 650,000
    to 1-1/2 million.
      In some cases the inventor himself became the organizer of
    businesses -- like Thomas Edison, inventor of electrical
    devices.  In other cases, the businessman compiled other
    people's inventions, like Gustavus Swift, a Chicago butcher
    who put together the ice-cooled railway car with the
    ice-cooled warehouse to make the first national meatpacking
    company in 1885.  James Duke used a new cigarette-rolling
    machine that could roll, paste, and cut tubes of tobacco
    into 100,000 cigarettes a day; in 1890 he combined the four
    biggest cigarette producers to form the American Tobacco
    Company.
      While some multimillionaires started in poverty, most did
    not.  A study of the origins of 303 textile, railroad, and
    steel executives of the 1870s showed that 90 percent came
    from middle- or upper-class families.  The Horatio Alger
    stories of "rags to riches" were true for a few men, but
    mostly a myth, and a useful myth for control.
      Most of the fortune building was done legally, with the
    collaboration of the government and the courts.  Sometimes
    the collaboration had to be paid for.  Thomas Edison
    promised New Jersey politicians $1,000 each in return for

    Message: 75647
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 12:33:53

    favorable legislation.  Daniel Drew and Jay Gould spent $1
    million to bribe the New York legislature to legalize their
    issue or $8 million in "watered stock" (stock not
    representing real value) on the Erie Railroad.

    (to be continued)

    Message: 75648
    Author: $ Felix Cat
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 14:06:13

    Re:  What, are we being graded by some cosmic giant who wants what if made
    to run obstacle courses?

    That's some concept you have of God.  It certainly differs from mine.

    Message: 75649
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/opinion
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 16:54:00

      You insinuate that my positions on drugs are just picked out of
    the air to suit my prejudices. I have seen studies on the relative toxicity
    and other detrimental effects of various drugs. Alcohol has the worst long
    term toxicity rating avialable for drugs. Marijuana is not even a contender.
    This data would not be skewed by the relative number of users for each drug,
    as that variable is taken into account in arriving at relative toxicity.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.
    p.s.(since, to your knowledge, there have never been any such studies, does
    that mean you looked for some and failed to find any, or that nobody ever
    tied you down and forced you to look at some? This is not a threat, just a
    question.)

    Message: 75650
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Marijuana fiasco
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 21:48:42

    After trying it myself I can say that it does inhibit your depth and
    time perception considerably. In so much as that I even rode a
    motorcycle while experiencing its effects, I was fortunate to make it
    home in one piece. My balance was not affected nor was my hearing or
    memory. My reaction time I can't say either way because I wasn't forced
    into an emergency stop situation. I do know that I was slowing down
    far before I should have been and that I would stop 10-12 feet before
    the white line at the lights.  I can see how this drug could get
    people into trouble, because of its effects, forgoing responsibilities
    and short-changing the future could easily be the bad side-effects.
    Getting high would take precedence over homework, writing a resume,
    looking for a job for one day, spending time being high instead of
    working. I've seen it with some of the people I knew back then.
    In Australia I remember watching a series a few months before we left for
    the U.S. The series was produced in Britain. It was about alcohol and
    marijuana and the driver. I think it was Eton school or one of those
    higher profile educational facilities that conducted the test. They
    took 4 guys (volunteers..willing no less) and as they were sober and
    "down to earth" they had them drive around a closed track in a dual-
    steering motor vehicle. The test involved one participant and two
    testers. One sat in the rear of the vehicle and activated a device that
    was mounted on the hood of the car. A red light. The driver was told to
    drive at a constant speed. (Monitored and recorded).
    (cont)

    Message: 75651
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: marijuana
    Date: 06/09/91  Time: 21:59:17

    At different spots along the course, the red light was triggered and the
    driver was instructed to brake to a normal stop.
    On the rear of the vehicle were two pneumatic paint guns. One colored
    red, the other green. The red paint gun was fired when the man in the rear
    activate{ the{red light. The{green gun was fired when the driver pressed in
    the brake pedal. The paint was shot at the ground and the distance
    between them was measured. Each of the four volunteers were tested on each
    of the four drugs over four days time. I have seen this documentary since
    I left but I don't remember the full results. If one thing stuck in my
    mind it's the reaction time with 4 martinis in this one guy. WOW. Keep
    me out of his way. The marijuana affected each of them differently , one
    guy spun the car out, that I do remember.
    It'd be well worth doing such a test and documenting it here..as I feel that
    the proponents for legalization of POT don't realize something;
    Accidents and deaths caused by this drug wont necessarily be recorded as
    being caused by the drug...much like Liberace and Elvis's deaths...
    Also, blood tests arent normally conducted unless foul play is suspected,
    and with alcohol, it's pretty obvious just by the smell alone. Pot leaves
    traces in the blood, but is very hard to detect otherwise. No one can
    honestly say "There has been not one death from the use of marijuana.."
    Because on April 22nd, 1980, a man was shot not 30 feet from me over a
    marijuana ciagrette. It was my 5th day in America.

    Message: 75652
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/question
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 06:02:33

    Did I look for some studies dealing with relative toxicities and fail to
    find any, or did nobody ever tie me down and force me to look at some?
     WEll Dean, I guess the most honest answer would fall somewhere in the
    middle of those two extremes. I do read whatever comes before me on subjects
    such as this, but don't really go out of my way to research such things. I
    do read the newspaper (such as it is), and several periodicals which would
    be likely to publish such findings if such existed. I don't do any personal
    deep research into the topic, since I am affected by neither marijuana or
    alcohol personally. So, with that qualification, no such research exists to
    the best of my knowledge. Hope that answers your question.
     Since I believe that this conversation originated with a comment on the
    events surrounding former judge Marquardt, my comments were more side issues
    to the main issue, that being that he did violate the laws he was sworn to
    uphold, and in doing so violated the public trust and his oath of office,
    and in doing so abrogated his right to hold that office. Which law he
    violated, or the relative justice of that particular law, are not really the
    issue. Do you have a problem with that?

    Message: 75653
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 17:40:48

      The first transcontinental railroad was built with blood,
    sweat, politics and thievery, out of the meeting of the
    Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads.  The Central
    Pacific started on the West Coast going east; it spent
    $200,000 in Washington on bribes to get 9 million acres of
    free land and $24 million in bonds, and paid $79 million, an
    overpayment of $36 million, to a construction company which
    really was its own.  The construction was done by three
    thousand Irish and ten thousand Chinese, over a period of
    four years, working for one or two dollars a day.
      The Union Pacific started in Nebraska going west.  It had
    been given 12 million acres of free land and $27 million in
    government bonds.  It created the Credit Mobilier company
    and gave them $94 million for construction when the actual
    cost was $44 million.  Shares were sold cheaply to
    Congressmen to prevent investigation.  This was at the
    suggestion of Massachusetts Congressman Oakes Ames, a shovel
    manufacturer and director of Credit Mobilier, who said,
    "There is no difficulty in getting men to look after their
    own property."  The Union Pacific used twenty thousand
    workers -- war veterans and Irish immigrants, who laid 5
    miles of track a day and died by the hundreds in the heat,
    the cold, and the battles with Indians opposing the invasion
    of their territory.

    Message: 75654
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 17:50:53

      Both railroads used longer, twisting routes to get
    subsidies from towns they went through.  In 1869, amid music
    and speeches, the two crooked lines met in Utah.
      The wild fraud on the railroads led to more control of
    railroad finances by bankers, who wanted more stability --
    profit by law rather than by theft.  By the 1890s, most of
    the country's railway mileage was concentrated in six huge
    systems.  Four of these were completely or partially
    controlled by the House of Morgan, and two others by the
    bankers Kuhn, Loeb, and Company.
      J. P. Morgan had started before the war, as the son of a
    banker who began selling stocks for the railroads for good
    commissions.  During the Civil War he bought five thousand
    rifles for $3.50 each from an army arsenal, and sold them to
    a general in the field for $22 each.  The rifles were
    defective and would shoot off the thumbs of the soldiers
    using them.  A congressional committee noted this in the
    small print of an obscure report, but a federal judge upheld
    the deal as the fulfillment of a valid legal contract.
      Morgan had escaped military service in the Civil War by
    paying $300 to a substitute.  So did John D. Rockefeller,
    Andrew Carnegie, Phillip Armour, Jay Gould, and James
    Mellon.  Mellon's father had written to him that "a man may
    be a patriot without risking his own life or sacrificing his

    Message: 75655
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Robber Barons
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 17:51:43

    health.  There are plenty of lives less valuable."

    Message: 75656
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Pay raise?
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 20:53:44

    In july the City employees will receive a meager 3.6% pay increase.
    This year, so far, my insurance has gone up 20% between my house and
    my truck, I paid more taxes and my medical insurance went up 40%.
    There's some pencil necked geek down at an office called the
    Metropolitan Phoenix consumer price index who determines how much
    the cost of living goes up each year. This bird brain metes out single
    and often 0 digit increases while the horde of legislature-backed
    insurance companies make it a crime not to pay their profit increases.
    Their increases are *never* below 10%. Between them, the Government
    and the IRS, I'm being bled to death. Yet we have these self righteous
    death merchants begging for tax dollars to slaughter unborn babies.
    Wonderful.
    Heaven forbid I slide over the speed limit some day. There's bound to
    be a cash-register charlie behind some bushes at an insurance company
    parking lot waving his shiny radar gun at me. Ready to explode from behind
    those bushes on his Kawasaki to deliver his financial death penalty to me.
    Gads, not that I'd want to flush more liquid platinum through my
    fuel-injected OPEC partner anyway. The price of gas changes each time I
    fill it and I'd swear it eeks a little laugh at me when I pay.
    Yeah..3.6%, I'll take it and buy *me* a sharp stick to poke in THEIR eyes
    when they complain about the lousy state of the economy. But the IRS
    will want to borrow that sharp stick around April, so what's the use?
    VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
    Ooops. Look out, they just banned private ownership of firearms..........

    Message: 75657
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Little
    Date: 06/10/91  Time: 23:28:20

            I saw his name in yesterdays [U]ser log....  He's lurking
    around here somewhere....?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

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