### Apollo BBS Archive - July 12 - 15, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:08:26

    Hmmm ... how about Katrina?  People coult call her Kat for short if she
    pleased.

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Jasmine said that her first name would be Sierra earlier this evening.  But
     2:I do like Katrina.....perhaps for a middle name which I am obliged to come
     3:up with.  Sierra Katrina Williams....has a GOOD sound.  Thanx and thanks for
     4:your great responses to John on the possible working of a universe.  They
     5:are enjoyed to say the least.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 67426
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B/evolution
    Date: 07/11/90  Time: 22:32:45

            I submit that neither you nor I have the right to dictate that
    Nature should act the way we demand. We have not the right to state that the
    world should perform according to our preferences, wants, desires. Nature is
    nature, it is not evil, happy, kind, malevolent, or beneficial. It has
    certain attributes which some peoples (e.g. Hopis) identify as human, but
    neither you nor I can criticize nature or God for not being what WE want Him
    or it to be. Let's accept it for how we percieve it to be, let's not dictate
    that it act as we ordain.

    Message: 67427
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Fatherhood
    Date: 07/11/90  Time: 22:51:39

            Congratulations on the new daughter! Earlier, I would have said that
    anyone who has fathered a child, smelled a flower, or watched a sunset, need
    not ask for proof of the existence of God.
            But we're working on step 3--Mike Carter pulled the trigger on most
    of it already--it is the fact, observable by observation, that motion
    without plan or order results in chaos. Ten thousand monkeys with ten
    thousand typewriters MIGHT produce Hamlet, but only by chance, and the next
    day's production would be gibberish.  A box full of crystal glasses shaken
    hard MIGHT fall into a model of the Taj Mahal, but shake again and it will
    be chaos.
            But now the world has evolved from less to more complex over a
    period of millions of years, with a few setbacks, perhaps, but in general a
    straight more and more complex world. Amazing! Incidentally, I don't believe
    in evolution as you do, but the argument is still sound--can you explain to
    me how the less-to-more-complex world happened?  --John C.--

    Message: 67428
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: owls
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 00:14:52

    Humans have the right to destroy all other species because of our greed?
    It's right to deforest the Amazon...the people down there need to live, just
    like the loggers, right?

    Message: 67429
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Carter
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 02:49:49

    Complex processes require thought?  What evidence is there of that?
    According to you (or is that according to John Cummings -- I always confuse
    the two of you) thought is unique to man.  And yet, complex processes occur
    all around us, in animals and in inanimate nature, in organic and in
    inorganic processes.  Obviously, everytime a dingo farts, then, God's widdle
    hands must be on the bellows.

    Message: 67430
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Rod's baby
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 02:50:41

    Again, a hearty congratulations are in order!!

    Message: 67431
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:00:03

    Nature is not a sentient being; nature is the name we have given to a
    collection of events and entities.  "Nature" is not good or evil, but the
    results of nature's works can be. Nature is certainly cruel, blundering, and
    wasteful; not in terms of the intentions of a being (for that I would need
    to be a theist, like you, who assumes that nature is the result of the plan
    of a being), but rather, in terms of the results of its processes.
    Clearly, there is no evidence of any purpose, and if it was planned this
    way, I should only have to assume that the planner was some sort of
    idiot-savant.

    Message: 67432
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:06:58

    Your analogies -- monkeys on typewriters, a box full of crystal glasses
    shaken -- demonstrate a fundamental lack of insight into stochastic
    processes.  A box full of monkeys randomly typing does not have the feedback
    necessary to shape their behavior.  A box full of crystal is not an apt
    analogy for molecular chemistry; again, there is nothing to determine how
    pieces of broken crystal should combine.
    On the other hand, we find in chemistry completely spontaneous, repeatable,
    and in fact self-sustaining reactions among purely inorganic components.
    These reactions form quite incredibly detailed patterns and forms; they are
    the closest thing to life yet observed in the inorganic world.
    They also reproduce.

    Message: 67433
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Victorian fashion
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:29:15

    Before the invention of the crinoline in 1856 (a cage of metal strips shaped
    like a cone, worn under women's skirts to widen, shape, and support the
    skirts),

    "pneumatic tubes" ! "were the most favoured system in the
    mid-[eighteen]'fifties [of extending the skirt], yet at the same time many
    fashionable beauties still kept to the traditional method of distending
    their...dresses simply by an enormous number of starched...petticoats.
    'Many belles now wear fourteen in evening dress.  They go to a ball standing
    up in their carriages, and stand between the dances, for fear of crushing
    their dress and fourteen petticoats.'  Marshal Canrobert told a friend who
    asked his opinion of her dress that it reminded him of an object which he
    was very fond of.  After some teasing, the French Commander-In-Chief
    revealed that the object in question was his tent in the Crimea.  He said he
    thought it had come to life and followed him from Sebastopol to Paris."

    "In 1880 Viscountess Harberton founded the Rational Dress Society 'to
    promote the adoption of a style of dress based upon consideration of health,
    comfort and beauty.'  Apart from compaining against tight-lacing, hampering
    skirts and high heels, one of the society's aims was 'to recommend that the
    maximum weight of underclothing (without shoes) should not exceed 7 lbs.'"

    There are some really amusing photos of women alpinists crossing glaciers in
    their long crinoline supported skirts with yards wide hems.

    Message: 67434
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: Unzipping
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:43:30

    UnZIPping, deARCing, and so forth shouldn't be a problem for a MAC owner.  I
    have some of these utilities.

    Message: 67435
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Montini and Mike
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:45:05

    E. J. Montini reminds me very much of Mike Barnicle in the Boston Globe.
    They have much the same style of journalism and usually address the same
    kind of human-interest story with no punches pulled.  Which doesn't mean to
    say they're always right, still less that the readers always agree with
    them; but that's part of the entertainment.  As long as it's treated as
    entertainment.

    Barnicle is a Boston Irish Catholic whose picture appears at the top of his
    column with a tough scowl on his face and a big cigar sticking out of his
    mouth.  Anybody who writes to complain or disagree with anything he says
    doesn't get ignored, though.  On the contrary, Barnicle will often publish
    the reader's comments in his column, then follow up by roundly abusing the
    complainer and his puerile opinions.  One woman wrote to whine about the
    "bad influence" of his cigar-smoking image, so being a smoker myself I gave
    him a silent cheer when he dispatched her with his usual gusto.

    Unfortunately Barnicle is also very unsound on the subject of guns, and
    seems to think (in his words) that gun owners are all a bunch of hick morons
    with straw in their mouths who live in the wild unknown lands beyond the
    Berkshires.  Typical Bostonian view.  But then, the Glob is also a flaming
    liberal newspaper.

    I don't recall any anti-gun or anti-gun-owner stuff from Montini before this
    episode in the year I've lived in Phoenix.  But maybe I missed it.

    Message: 67436
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa and Gaiety
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:49:46

    I was taught math and French, respectively, by two middle-aged "maiden
    ladies" who lived together in a house just near the school.  They were
    first-class teachers and were also very well liked by everybody.  Many years
    later I put together some clues and decided that they were almost certainly
    gay.  But nobody had thought to speculate about that at the time.

    Statistically the proportion of gay child molesters is at least no larger
    than the proportion of hetero child molesters (you can't call a child
    molester "straight"!)  Curiously, a large number of men who molest little
    boys are heterosexual "in other respects" -- whatever that means.  (In their
    sexual relationships with adults, presumably.)

    That reminds me of a note made in 1894 by the Assistant Commissioner of the
    Metropolitan Police (in London) about a Jack the Ripper suspect named Druitt
    who drowned himself.  "[Druitt] was alleged to be sexually insane", he
    wrote; and a later commentator pointed out that this was "a curious phrase,
    implying that Druitt was sane in other departments".  But it is possible
    that "sexually insane" was a Victorian euphemism for "homosexual".

    Not all euphemisms for homosexuals are derogatory.  One old geezer wrote to
    the newspaper about all the gay rights protests, gay pride marches, gay
    people "coming out" and others clamoring to be let out of the closet.
    "Homosexuality used to be called 'the love that dare not speak its name,'"
    he grumbled.  "Now it won't shut up!"

    Message: 67437
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: patterns and plans
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 04:04:01

    Oh, and speaking of developments and organizations, let's not forget the
    patterns we commonly find in clouds, sand, water, wood grain; all kinds
    of familiar shapes; faces, human bodies, motorcycles, question marks, to
    name but a few that I persolly have observed. These shapes often form
    spontaneously and almost instantaneously, and unless you believe they are
    some sort of supernatural portent or omen, I think you'd do well to drop
    this rubbish about complex pattern and order being the result of a plan --
    unless of course you believe God has nothing better to do than sit around
    making patterns in wood grain with the foreknowledge that some day the wood
    will be used to make your printer stand.
    In just nine months a fertilized egg "evolves" into a newborn baby.  And
    yet, somehow, the concept that over a period of many, many millions of
    years, through the combination of random (but bounded) mutation and
    environmental feedback, a simple organism might evolve into a human being,
    is looked upon as ludicrous.

    Message: 67438
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: daryl/repost
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 07:48:15

    I suggest you refer to posts by message number, rather than forcing the
    rest of us to hit the skip key. Thank you.

    Message: 67439
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:40:27

    You have good, logical arguements, that don't need to be based on something
    you just have to accept as fact without proof.

    Of course, the creationist camp, when faced with such things as, "The
    production of amino acids with lightning is a simulated environment has be
    duplicated". will usually respond like this: "God made it that way."
    "The results are wrong, because the researchers could have fixed the
    results."
    Or maybe they were just being given enough blasphemy rope by the
    all-powerful diety to hang themselves...

    s

    Message: 67440
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:43:22

    Just think of it as only one of those thousand points of light.

    Message: 67441
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Rodmary's Baby
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:44:02

    Congratulations, Rod!  What did you do to help?  Boil the water?

    Message: 67442
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger / Repost
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:00:15

        That was (hopefully) a one-time deal. I doubt I will respond to a
    message in this manner again in the near future.

    Daryl

    Message: 67443
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod / Child
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:03:14

    Congratulations on the new baby.

    Daryl

    Message: 67444
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Congrats!
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:17:12

    Congradulations Rod Williams on the birth of the newborn!

    WAHHHH!!!

    "It's 2:00am..your turn!"

    Message: 67445
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:20:57

    What you said is quite true, one doesn't need to have facts
    or proof to sound logical. That's why there's always so many
    answers to a question...only one right one though.
    That's why men *believed* the earth was flat.
    That's why men *believed* going to the moon was science fiction.

    You don't need fact, physical proof or scientific grounds to
    -->sound<-- logical. In fact, you can sound just as logical
    with a little science droppped in...like Mr Issac Asimov does
    so well.

    Message: 67446
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeffs Dingos
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:31:02

    You're showing a lack of understanding on some things here.
    If you removed all signs of life from this orbiting sphere..every
    single possible scrap of living existence, "Nature" would
    go on.
    So where you get off anthropomorphisizing about its suggested
    cruelty, lack of direction and "wastefullness" is beyond rationality.
    Lets play Devils advocate and say that your life, my life and everyone
    else's here is just a mutated glob of manical chance struck by
    lightning in some Frat Lab. Now that we've (I'm being facetious Jeff..)
    aggreed that we're only so much cosmic jellatin quivering away
    waiting for death in a world full of sorrow, hate, unfulfilled
    dreams, injustice and chaos without morality, why do you keep living?
    I mean if this seems as one big accident, that your life is worth
    less now that its another two minutes older, why ....** WHY **
    do you allow yourself another miserable second of existence in such
    a harsh, cold, unforgiving and cruel existance?

    Oh please, don't go ranting and sniveling about self preservation...
    in clinical terms, don't make me puke. Remember, you're nothing but
    a pile of artificially stimulated slag that's got monkey's for
    uncles and ameoba brains. So forget going on about your value and
    such. If you can figure math, so can my wolf.

    Message: 67447
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Rod's Baby...
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 10:29:51

            A very sincere congratulations, and may she be blessed with good
    health and a happy life.

                            clif-

    Message: 67448
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: 150,000th caller
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 10:38:02

            What Bill Burkett said...was the TRUTH!  There is going to be a
    Non-$tatus user selected on the 31st of July to become a $tatus user, with
    the cost absorbed by 'Bill Burkett'.  This is NOT a JOKE!

            Zak Woodruff won 'Blue $tatus' as Apollo's 100,000th caller. Now
    Bill Burkett as Apollo's 150,000th caller has won the same.  Bill however
    feels he still wants to contribute his $12.00 annually, so he is going to
    set up the 'Bill Burkett Foundation' with a grant to be awarded each year.

            'Blue-$tatus' by the way is life time membership without the annual
    membership fee.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67449
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Rod and Jasmine
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 11:19:27

    Congratulations!  Give Jasmine my wishes for a speedy recovery.

    Message: 67450
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Trivia
    Subject: batteries
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 14:49:29

            Today Apollo's batteries for the SAFE Un-Interruptible power supply
    were replaced.  The Safe 250 can run Apollo for almost half an hour if APS
    drops the load.  Durring July  with the monsoon and thunder/lightning
    weather, I thought it would be a good idea to have the system in tip-top
    shape.  As soon as the Safe 250 detects any fluctuation in power, it takes
    over till a clean line is detected.  I can generally hear the 'beep' signal
    from the SAFE 250 before I see the lights flicker in a brown out.
            Total price spent on batteries you ask????   $ 56.21

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67451
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fur coats
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:21:52

    Unfortunately, I have no collection. Actually, I wouldn't buy one as much as
    I love them Or was a millionair. We don't need that sort of thing to have a
    beautiful coat now days. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67452
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on Moby
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:26:41

    Moby Dick is complete rubbish???? Have you lost your marbles?
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67453
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on a whore
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:31:07

    What is the equivalent name to a guy that sells it or gives it away to
    anyone that asks? Just curious. *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-
    In other words, the male version of a whore?!

    Message: 67454
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on coats
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:32:26

                            NONE!

    Message: 67455
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on cake
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:34:31

    I'll jump out of it only if it's chocolate! An\or I get a fur coat.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67456
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on cake
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:35:48

    I do think it would be better if you jumped outta da cake. I'll be you own a
    bikini huh? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67457
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on baby
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:39:01

    Congratulations fellow! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67458
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Think about this one
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 18:03:24

    Jeff:
     (7-2x)^(1/3) = -3

    solve for x.  This came from my Mathematical Calendar.

    Message: 67459
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: Unzip
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 18:13:31

    Bob, I will upload an unzip program for the Mac.  I assume that you can
    handle BinHex4 files???

    Lemme know.

    Message: 67460
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:39:42

    Re:  "What is the equivalent name to a guy that sells it or gives it away to
    anyone that asks? Just curious. In other words, the male version of a
    whore?!"

    Gigolo is the word.  But they are far and few between and usually pray on
    old rich women.  Besides men don't give it away; they take.  The women
    usually give it for some kind of compensation, and the man receive it
    usually for giving some kind of compensation.  And that's the way it's
    always been.

    Message: 67461
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod's new baby
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:42:34

    Tell Jasmine that I congratulate her on having the baby.  She did all the
    real work for sure.  I always wondered why the men get congratulated when we
    know it's the woman who really pays the price.

    Message: 67462
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:43:32

    Sure can.  Tell me the name of the file.

    Message: 67463
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck/Dingo farts
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:52:36

            Whoa, please follow the distinction I made here! Complexity is
    simply the adjective to describe modern beings, as opposed to less complex
    stuff from which modern beings evolved, according to evolutionists. The
    faculty of thought is one shared by many of the "more complex" beings:e.g.,
    man, and apparently some higher apes. Man is set apart from the rest by an
    ESSENTIAL difference; that is, one of the essence of man. It distinguishes
    the species. It is the ability to think "rationally" or "reflectively" or
    "in a manner whichn distinguishes essences".    --John C.--

    Message: 67464
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck/Nature
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:56:35

            "Nature is certainly cruel, blundering, and wasteful," you say, and
    yet you deny it a sentient nature. If it is not sentient, then who are you
    to assume the arrant arrogance of decreeing judgment on it? How can it be
    cruel? Why is it not kind, fruitful, sheltering, as the Hopis believe?

    Message: 67465
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck/Chemistry
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:59:52

            You are right--we find those interesting actions in chemistry, and
    some more just as interesting in other disciplines. Do we agree that the
    modern world evolved from a less complex world? Is there an explanation for
    that peculiar unique development?   --John C.--

    Message: 67466
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/evolution
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:04:31

            A "fertilized egg 'evolves' into a baby." No, Jeff, thye egg
    DEVELOPS into a baby--mankind evolved from primordial slime, if you believe
    the evolutionists.     --John C.--

    Message: 67467
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: In search of
    Subject: the answer
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:30:30

    I know what it is...nah nah nah nah nah nah!
    But I'll wait and see it Jeff can figure it out.

    Message: 67468
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:32:52

    Gigalo is the name for male prostitues but down on Van Buren they are also
    called whores.  It might be because many of their customers are men, though
    are not homosexual (that's what they say - YOU figure it out).

    And I don't believe I said I had a bikini.

    Message: 67469
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/gigolo
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:54:47

    "Pray" on old rich women. What do they pray ? "Oh, God, please let me
    be put in the old bag's will!" :) :) :) :) :)

    Message: 67470
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: john/rationality
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:57:28

    Do you not agree that a monkey thinks rationally when it performs the
    appropriate action in a lab environment to obtain a reward ? Hmmm. If
    I press lever A, then B, I will get a yummy snack. And humans; If I
    go to work and work real well for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I will
    get some money.

    Message: 67471
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: john/cruel nature
    Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:58:38

    Beck has always anthropomorphized to excess. Please excuse him. (He is
    also jejune, but don't tell him that)

    Message: 67472
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Homophobe
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:40:56

       A while back, someone said that "homophobe" means "someone who hates
    men".  (I ran out of time before I could reply, and have lost the message
    number.)
       So -- I'd just like to ask whoever posted that definition how he figures.

                                         =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 67473
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Carter
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:49:25

    You're right about nature being cruel; we couldn't call it cruel if sentient
    life did not exist.  However, sentient life does exist, and nature is often
    cruel.  To be wasteful and blundering, however, life does not need to exist.
    To waste is to be superfluous.  Waste is a type of blunder, though the
    latter term describes a a far more general class of errors.
    Why do I go on?  I am puzzled by this question.  Why should I require the
    existence of a God to justify my own existence?

    Message: 67474
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/Moby-Dick
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:52:46

    No.

    Moby-Dick is one of those incredibly boring, irrelevant, and vexatious books
    which snobs of the Western Classics school of pedagogy inflict upon the rest
    of us, primarily because child abuse is self-perpetuating.

    Message: 67475
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beau Dog
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:54:10

    That's easy; it must be, for I am currently under the influence of Sominex
    and will soon fall asleep.

    You asked me to solve (7-2x)^1/3 = -3.  The first order of business is to
    get rid of that pesky radical.  Since it is a cube root, we simply cube the
    other side of the equation and remove the radical.  We then have the simple
     equation 7-2x = -27.  Adding 27 to both sides, we get 34-2x = 0.  Add
    2x to both sides, and we have 2x=34.  Divide both sides by 2 and we have
    x=17.  This checks, because the cube root of (7-2*17), or -27, is -3.
    Q.E.D.

    Message: 67476
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:08:10

    Rubbish.

    Message: 67477
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: nature
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:10:38

    It is kind, fruitful, and sheltering.  It is also wasteful, blundering, and
    cruel.  That is no paradox.  A man wandering in the desert may come upon an
    oasis.  He may also die of heatstroke.  The point is not that nature is
    ALWAYS wasteful, blundering or cruel -- that might indicate a plan of a
    different sort.  Merely that it can be, and often is wasteful, blundering
    and cruel.

    Message: 67478
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: stuff
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:15:51

    I do not like the word evolve -- it implies progess.  The changes which
    "evolution" have brought are ambiguous at best, and my attitude in that
    sense is ambivalent.  Things change; some changes are good, some are bad.
    There are different types of complexity and simplicity; one does not judge
    the complexity of a design by the number of its components or the number of
    sheer interactions within a system.  One CAN describe it that way, but such
    complexity (when it is NOT wasteful or blundering, that is, when it is
    neither superfluous nor self-defeating (as nature often is) often brings a
    kind of simplicity to things; the simplicity of elegance.

    Message: 67479
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cummings
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:17:09

    Don't be a twit; why do you think I put the word "evolve" into quotation
    marks in my original message, if not to indicate a figurative analogy rather
    than a literal one?

    Message: 67480
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Answers
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 09:09:36

    Yeah, that's what I thought:  too easy for ya.
    But HEY!  Happy Friday the 13th folks.

    Message: 67481
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Friday the 13th
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 09:34:02

    Too bad rod didn't get his 66666 today.

    Message: 67482
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Morality
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 10:13:50

            I've always wondered about theists who insist that without a deity,
    there is no reason to not murder, steal, rape, commit suicide, etc.  Does
    that mean that if God came down and repealed the Ten Commandments, all the
    Christians would go on a murdering, stealing, raping, rampage?
            I can come up with lots of pragmatic reasons for not engaging in the
    above actions, not the least of which is that the victims and their
    relatives are lible to get real peeved at me and put a stop to it.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 67483
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 10:55:26

    The fact that you were raised in a society with morals based on
    religion seems to evade your narrow mind.
    Contrary to your fairy tale ideals, I think man is *not* an
    Altruistic being. He's basically arrogant, selfish, self centered and
    predatory.

            -Mike

    Message: 67484
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beck/evolution
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 11:36:03

            This does not ask for a judgment as to the worth, the goodness or
    badness of changes; it simply points out that the changes since the
    beginning have been from the less complex to the more complex. Whether that
    is good or bad is the stuff of a different discussion. This simply states
    that the change has been from less to more complex, from primordial slime to
    the concept of cube root of a number.   --John C.--

    Message: 67485
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod,Jeff/religion
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 11:51:07

            I'd like to graduate from this course, okay.  We've spent a week
    discussing the Proof of Order, to wit: movement without plan results in
    chaos, movement to complexity displays a planner. The world evolved from
    less to more complex, therefore the world follows a planner, a designer.
    Believers call the Planner God. This is only one of dozens of proofs.
            I don't expect this to convert you;it is only intellectual argument,
    conversion requires the leap of faith. But it satisfies Rod's request that
    we ask pastors for a proof.Since 1275 a.d., this is a proof which atheists
    have had to ignore or evade or deny; it cannot be disproved logically
    without descending to the absurdity of hundred of billions of coincidences.
            Now, therefore I ask that you exercise intellectual honesty and
    common courtesy and honor the integrity of those who believe in God. Cease
    the puerile, rude, gross, infantile attacks on the concept of a creator.
            I've been insulted with grammatical errors and arguments couched in
    obfuscations and evasions. I neither deserve this nor will I accept more.
            Jeff, I bow to your superior knowledge of mathematics. Rod, you are
    far more knowledgeable than I about computers. Should you wish, however, to
    continue denying the existence of God and insulting my belief, then I ask
    that before you display such erudition, kindly first understand Augustine's
    CITY OF GOD and the SUMMA THEOLOGICA of Aquinas.     --John C.--

    Message: 67486
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Offspring
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:00:11

    Congratulations on your new arrival, Rod.  (P.S.  I know you were
    kidding about naming her Satana.  You wouldn't want to call her after
    something you don't believe in, would you?)

    Message: 67487
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Today's date
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:02:15

    Well, it's Friday the Thirteenth today.  Doesn't anybody have an AX?

    (To grind, that is...)

    Message: 67488
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on answer
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:23:24

    'Gigolo'! Now isn't that just a jim dandy word compared to 'whore'? I would
    be willing to bet it was men that made up all these descriptive words!

    OK - what is a man called that goes to bed with 10 women? I know what a
    woman is called and what kind of reputations she will get for doing so. What
    kind of reputation will he get? A medal? No - that's a commendation, right?
    A Plaque? An award of some sort? Glory, laud and honor perhaps? I'll say it
    again .... "BAH HUMBUG!!!" -=*) ANN (*=- (snort)

    Message: 67489
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa on whores
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:27:13

    You said "many of their customers are men, though not homosexual. (that's
    what they say ..." So, you've been down on Van Buren asking these male
    whores these questions??? Hahahahahhhahaha Sorry - I couldn't resist. Just
    wondering if you did that in your spare time??!! (snicker) -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67490
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff on Moby
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:31:39

    Huh? Child abuse? Self-perpetuating? Pedagogy? Here I thought it was a book
    about a sea Captain that lost his leg to a great white whale and seeked his
    revenge - risking his crew selfishly, but the whale, Moby Dick won! Are we
    talking about the same book/movie? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67491
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: John Cummings
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 13:11:27

    Re: 'the puerile, rude, gross, infantile attacks on the concept of a
    creator.'

            I agree, but you should now see and understand why most of us
    Christians just ignor these guys when it comes to religion. The fact they
    can't seem to understand the concept of a God, seems to upset and fill them
    with anger.  So much anger they seem to find it necessary to vent it out on
    us Christians in the form of 'rude, gross, personal attacks.

            In person these people are good friends, when we are not talking
    about religion.   The fact they don't wish to believe in a God, does not
    bother me.   Why does it bother them, is the question.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67492
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod's baby
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 15:35:52

    Congratulations Rod on your new and hopefully healthy baby.
      THE MAD MAX

    Message: 67493
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 18:05:31

    Well he named his first child Christian.

    Message: 67494
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: old on Stadium tax
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 18:37:08

     07/05/90                Tax support of baseball?

    Just how bad do you want a National Baseball League for Maricopa County?

    [A] I am for a quarter-cent sales tax to finance a stadium.
    [B] I am against sales tax to finance a stadium.
    [C] I don't care.

    Poll results:
    [A] 3    [B] 18   [C] 5

            For those of you who [V]oted [B], be sure to sign a petition
    as soon as you can.  They need 43,350 voter signatures by Sept. 26th to stop
    House Bill 1344 from going into effect.
            For those of you who voted [C] (don't care if your taxes go up or
    not)... can I interest you in paying for a swimming pool for my back yard.
            I would like to hear from those who voted for [A], are you baseball
    fans?

            I am not against a stadium, but I think the people who are going to
    profit from the 'gate', should be the ones to pay for the damn thing, not
    tax-payers who are already over burdened by taxes in a flat economy.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67495
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 19:57:36

    Re:  "OK - what is a man called that goes to bed with 10 women?"

    Hey, I didn't say life was fair.  But in answer to your question,
    whoremaster or whoremonger.  Now I would venture to guess that the former
    was thought up by a man and the latter was thought up by a woman.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 67496
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/Action
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:05:54

            A long time ago, when I was in college, before you were born, a man
    who went to bed with ten women was called a cocksman. A question usually
    followed: Ten women? One at a time or all at once? Shakespeare had a great
    time playing with words in this regard, and they've been picked up by modern
    playwrights, too.       --John C.--

    Message: 67497
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike C./language
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:11:33

            I've always been interested in languages, especially English, and
    the way it is handled in different parts of the world, so I'm intrigued by
    your comments about some Australian expressions.  One of my daughters
    married a man whose mother is Australian.  She now lives in San Diego, a
    very cultured, intelligent lady. A real delight to talk with. But, although
    she smiles with recognition at some questions about "strine," the Australian
    slang, she doesn't want to get in to it. From what I've been able to learn,
    the Australian English is the most vibrant, poetic, alive language since
    Shakespeare, and that requires the slang!  Are you familiar with the
    so-called "strine"? Do you enjoy that strength of speech? How long have you
    been gone from there? Do they still use "rhyming slang"?  --John C.--

    Message: 67498
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie/Homos
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:17:39

            Annie, did you get thru to the St. Jos. Hopital board? Did they have
    info to help?  The Republic and the Wall Street Journal both, yesterday or
    the day before, ran an article about AIDS being the fifth greatest killer of
    young black women of child bearing age: 15 to 40.  Apparently, contaminated
    needles and sex with bi-sexual men who had been exposed to homosexual men
    were the chief sources of the disease.
            Back to the guy who sleeps with 10. What are his odds of getting it
    from an IV druggie or a gal whose pimp is queer? Oh, don't even think of it,
    it is gross!      --John C.--

    Message: 67499
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 'Strine
    Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:57:32

    I have a book or two on Strine. If you'll be at the b-day party GT, you can
    look at them...

    Message: 67500
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Carter on men
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:36:38

    Heh heh, sorry, couldn't resist that one.  Now then, I'd probably agree with
    your characterization of mankind; as a generalization.  But there are a lot
    of exceptions.

    Message: 67501
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/evolution
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:39:31

    If that is your sole definition of evolution -- a series of changes from the
    less to the more biologically complex, then I see nothing wrong with it.
    However, be aware that the ordinary definition of the term, and in most
    cases, the scientific definition of the term, is not nearly so exact nor
    restricted, nor neutral.

    Message: 67502
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/religion
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:50:33

    But it is not an intellectual argument.  And in millions of trillions of
    events, one might expect a few hundred billion coincedences, though how
    you derived that figure is beyond me.  Obviously, you haven't bothered to
    read my messages, nor have you ever bothered to study probability nor
    scientific theories on the origin of life nor experiments nor chaos theory,
    for if you did you would see that your proof is not a proof, but a fallacy
    based on ignorance.
    Nor have you responded to the problem of evil.  There is no reason for it to
    exist.  There is no reason for its possibility to exist.  If God is all
    powerful and benevolent, then it is possible for him to create beings
    without the potential for evil.  It IS possible for beings to have free will
    and yet lack the potential for evil, because God has free will and yet lacks
    evil; he is both morally pure and infallible.  If, however, you insist that
    it is not possible to have free will and yet lack the capacity for evil,
    despite the refutation of this in God himself, then clearly, it was an
    irresponsible act to create such beings in the first place.  Furthermore, it
    is a continually irresponsible act to allow the victims of evil to suffer
    the results of evil acts; one need not be able to actually carry out an evil
    act in order to choose to do it.  And what about the evils of disease and
    natural disaster?  Why should they exist?  There is no free will in a cancer
    or an earthquake.  What about the sheer stupidity of nature?  You have no
    answers to these questions, because you are blind in your faith.

    Message: 67503
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/attacks
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:52:46

    Clearly, through his actions, this mythological creator of yours is puerile,
    rude, gross and infantile.  He should feel right at home.

    Message: 67504
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: AN APOLLOgy
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 01:13:47

    Let me make a public apology to John Cummings for the personally insulting
    statements I made.  There is something about his cavalier arrogance combined
    with his antithetical views which vexes me; yet that is hardly an excuse for
    the sort of vituperation I vented upon him.  Let us go forth, if not in a
    spirit of brotherhood, if not with an amiable spirit, then with a civil and
    amicable spirit.

    Excelsior!

    J.B.

    P.S. Lord, was that last bit pompous and affectatious, or what!!

    Message: 67505
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on words
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 09:00:49

    I could post a few words discribing those types of men - but you don't
    belong to the Cos sig!! All thought up by women too. Heh heh.
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67506
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C.
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 09:04:28

    A 'Cocksman'??? Ho boy, does that have a macho ring to it! I have another
    name for them and it begins with a 'P'! Ha ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    P.S. A man taking on 10 women isn't feasible in the least - but a women
    taking on 10 men is ................. enjoyable!

    P.S.S. You were in college before I was born? How old are you fellow, 95?

    Message: 67507
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: New ote
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 10:45:49

            Be advised there is a NEW ote (Poll) in the ain menu about
    summer movies.  Supposedly 'the big ones'....
            Please look it over and make some choice.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67509
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: I voted 4 stadium
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 17:10:08

    The reason I voted for the tax is simple.
    Phoenix is one of the very *few* places where the heat is so
    bad that you wont see me at *any* outdoor game during the summer.
    In fact, I think its also why as far as major leagues are concerned,
    why we stink when it comes to football and baseball.
    Notice the great job we did with basketball? (AN INDOOR SPORT).
    Now, I hate paying taxes just like the rest of you. In fact, I'd
    wager that I actually pay more than 98% of you. I doubt sincerely
    wether or not .25cents is gonna choke the living feces out of me.
    Wether it be .25c or 25 or 250. Each year I pay approximately
    12,000 dollars in taxes. It sucks wind. It blows chunks. It stinks
    up a God awful storm. But taxes *spent* on something tangible.....
    like a massive sports stadium.... I'll vote FOR anytime. It's something
    I can take the kids to on a 120 degree day and say; Hey, let's
    go watch a baseball game and eat some hot dogs and have a little fun.
    Rather than; Hey, let's go watch a baseball game, eat some hot dogs
    a{d watch Mikey expire from heat exhaus4{ion and get taken to St Lukes,
    where he'll hopefully recover from 3 hours of Phoenix sunlighht in the
    summer.
    I get sick from the heat. It's a disability I have. One of about 2.
    I can't take lactose either...that's about it. I haven't been sick enough
    to miss work (except from heat) for 10 years.
    I dare say that I'm not only in favor of a stadium, but I'm in favor
    of spending 250,000 extra to keep it cool. Unless you;re a lizards cousin.

    Message: 67510
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Aha
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 17:34:05

    Did you hear the recent news about these Politico types?
    It appears that Bush and his band of read my lips weenies
    have responded to the public outcry for justice on the S&L bailout.
    Now they are saying ;
    "We're recovering a Million dollars a day..."

    Dope heads.

    They didn't tell you that it's costing us $56 million dollars a day
    to cope with and chase down the S&L thiefs.

    One day people. One day, and it'll be one day before it's all too late.

    Message: 67511
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 18:30:01

    10 men is enjoyable?  Ouch!
    Maybe 4 but after that it's overkill.

    Message: 67512
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: List
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 18:31:17

    Euuwwww!   I'm on next to Mike Carter!!  Can I change my seat, teacher
    Cliffy?  At least I'm on top.

    Message: 67513
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Movies
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:21:49

            I voted with an "H" because I haven't seen any of those movies yet,
    but I have been looking forward to catching Firebirds to watch the
    helicopters from Mesa.  But I see that the whirly-bird flick get no votes,
    and I know that some of you have seen it, at least.  Is it really a dog of a
    film? Is it worth seeing? I don't see many movies.

            But hey, I saw "Thoroughly Modern Millie" and it was pretty good.

    Message: 67514
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: New User
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:33:17

            Ray Erickson (who was a $tatus member in 1986) has re-joined Apollo.
    Ray uses a Leading Edge computer (IBM Compatible)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67515
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: 28th July
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:45:50

    I think I can make it on this date as well.  I might have missed part
    of the announcement, though, due to being away.  What time is it?

    Message: 67516
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cocksmen
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:49:17

    ...and the guy who directs a rowing crew is called a "coxswain"
    (pronounced "cox'n" in the style of other good nautical words like
    bo's'un, mains'l, fo'c'sle and so on).  No wonder those Oxford and
    Cambridge rowing blues had such an undeserved reputation...

    Message: 67517
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Coming soon....
    Date: 07/14/90  Time: 22:52:07

            The B-Day GT on the 28th of July is coming.  The guest list has
    gotten longer.  You need NOT even have to be a $tatus user to attend as we
    have several very good Non-$tatus users who post excellent messages.

            There are some of you $tatus members who hardly attend or never have
    attended an Apollo GT.  I STRONGLY urge you to consider the Saturday 28th
    night Get-Together, to meet the gang!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67518
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Cake for GT
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 00:56:11

            Looks like there will be so many users, it will be necessary to buy
    a store cake instead.  Sandy ain't one for a lot of baking.....

            Does anyone know what stores have the best cakes?  Fry's, Smith's,
    Safe Way...etc?

            Open to suggestions, or in short.... HELP!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67519
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Oh, alright...
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 01:10:35

    I'll probably show up.

    Message: 67520
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT/28th
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 06:45:30

     Just back from 3 weeks vacation, and trying to catch up on what's
    happening. Haven't had a chance to look at my schedule yet, but if I don't
    have a party or something, may be able to make the B-day GT. 'Twould be fun.
     Cliff, I used to get cakes for such things as retirement parties, etc.
    when I was still a working stiff, and found that Smitty's was the best by
    far. They will tailor-decorate to suit the need, and their frosting isn't
    that sickening sweet stuff that some others use. Prices are reasonable, too.
     Later. Hi, everyone! I'm back!

    Message: 67521
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Guest List
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 07:58:25

    Ann Oudin
    Beauregard Dog
    Bill Burkett
    Bob Thornburg
    Gordon Little
    Jeff Beck
    Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
    Melissa Dee
    (( space ))
    Mike Carter
    Mike Kielsky
    Pat Stoddard
    Paul Savage
    Rod Williams
    Shirley Bear
    Steven Carls
    Todd Reese

    Re: Cake & Paul Savage...   Smitty's.... thanks!  Welcome back!

    Anyone else?   Jack F., Mike M., ?,?,?, and so on...........

    Message: 67522
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Cake
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 08:50:32

    Yeah, Smitty's cakes are good because the frosting is whip cream, not just
    the ole suger and water.  I don't know if you have to ask for it or if they
    do them all that way.

    Oh, and thanks for the space!

    Message: 67523
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike on Stadium
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 09:04:38

    Hey Mike! You changed my mind about new taxes for a stadium with that post
    of yours! I never thought of it quite like that before. I'd pay the extra
    for a cool ball park. Even in the winter here sometimes it's really too warm
    for football. I would NEVER go to a baseball game as much as I love it. I
    have had a heat stroke years ago and just can't take being in the sun for
    very long. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67524
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Way to go ....
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 09:19:02

    ... Bullhead City! They voted and passed overwhelmingly in May of 1989 that
    requires any new or increased city tax or assessment to be approved by
    voters!!!! Of course the politicians are raising holy hell about it. One
    Bullhead city attorney said "If the city council wanted to impose a fine for
    failure to register a bicycle - it could result in an election!" TOO BAD!
    They shouldn't have to register a damn bike anyway! These politicians are
    going to have to put to good use the money they do have for a change instead
    of wasting it! Viva la Bullhead city!!! Viva la voters! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67525
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cool ballpark
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 10:27:46

    A cool park for the patrons (or some set of them) won't solve the problem
    down on the playing field.

    Face it, folks.  Phoenix isn't going to get a major league team unless they
    build a domed stadium, and Phoenix isn't going to do that.

    We are going to have a white elephant if we build a baseball stadium.

    Message: 67526
    Author: $ Shirley Bear
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Welcome Back
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 11:14:14

    "Hi" Paul,
         Welcome back.  Hope you had a real good vacation.  I will be
    looking forward  seeing you at the GT on July 28th.
         Catch ya later.

                            ***** Shirley *****

    Message: 67527
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Stadium
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 12:48:26

            They are NOT going to make a covered stadium, so how do you feel it
    will be cooler?  Besides, let the people buying tickets (the neanderthals)
    pay for the stadium.  I resent paying for something I won't use!
            If it was the ONLY thing they were ever going to have us pay for
    with sales tax, it would be one thing... but the list keeps getting longer,
    and those 1/4 and 1/2 cent tax hikes do add up.    You guys won't be happy
    till we pay $1.00 tax to spend 10 cents!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67528
    Author: Ronnie Coffin
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Crossroads
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 13:37:28

    CROSSROADS is a multiuser online database featuring:

       *  Multi-user chat
       *  Multiple Message Bases
       *  Micro computer support for IBM's, ATARI's, COMMODORE's, AMIGA's,
          APPLE's, MACINTOSH's, TANDY PRODUCTS, and UNIX/XENIX systems
       *  Protocol file transfers and downloads using ASCII, Xmodem, Ymodem,
          Zmodem and Kermit protocol's.  Over 500 MEGABYES of Files/Info
       *  MANY Online games and multi-player games including Kingdom (AD&D),
       *  Over 500+ adventure game solutions and maps (this is the LARGEST
          collection of adventure game walk-thrus in the country!)
       *  USENET WORLDWIDE ELECTRONIC MAIL AND MESSAGE SUBSYSTEM
          with 400 message categories covering almost every topic
          imaginable!  Usenet has over 60 megabyes of all NEW material
          every 10 days.  Usenet articles and downloads are received at
          the rate of 2-4 MEGABYTES per DAY!

    CROSSROADS ------>>>>               602/941-2005

    For FREE TRIAL ACCESS, at the login prompt type: guest

    Message: 67529
    Author: Ronnie Coffin
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Usenet
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 13:38:20

    Usenet is the worlds' largest networked communication system.
    It is telecommunications' best source for conference
    publications, public domain/shareware software sources for
    ALL computers, messages, questions and answers for over 450
    different catagories covering every interest imaginable.
    Normally, Usenet is only available through large corporation
    like Microsoft, Apple, Sun, AT&T etc or to students in major
    universities.

    Currently, CROSSROADS is the only public access Usenet node
    in Arizona.  Information obtained via the Usenet network
    comes in at the rate of 2-4 MEGABYTES per DAY!

    Crossroads is now offering FREE guest access so that modem
    users in the Valley can explore this "state-of-the-art"
    service at their convenience without worry of fees or costs.

    To try out this FREE offer, login as: guest

    CROSSROADS ------------>>>>   602-941-2005

    Message: 67530
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cake
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 14:19:04

    I just hope the cake from smitty's doesn't come with a rope in it.
    Hey clif, make shure you have enough money in your checking account before
    you go buy it.   ***** just some satire *****
       THE MAD MAX

    Message: 67531
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT Cake
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 16:24:44

    Well. Shoot.
    I might be able to con my grandmother into making an Asutralian
    delicacy for dessert...it's called "Pavlova". The way she makes
    it will delight everyone.
    Then again, I might not be able to since she is very very old now.
    (Born 1901).

    Hey Melissa, you said "you're on top"...that's the way I *like* it.
    (smile).

    Hey Cliff, Eeeuuuuwwwwchhh...I have a ** SPACE ** next to me of all
    things. Yeeechhh.

    Message: 67532
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's bashing.
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 17:53:24

    What do you all think of the situation that happened a few nights ago.
    My feelings are between the old rock and hard place. The guy needed to be
    caught. Anyone who owns or has owned a business knows how much bad checks
    cost you...But they used excessive force.

    Message: 67533
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: smitty's murder
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 19:07:19

    I think that the Smitty's employee should get the gas chamber. That might
    teach 'em a lesson.

    Message: 67534
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: smitty's murder
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 20:20:43

    The title say's it all, because thats what I think it is. Can you believe
    the guts of those guy's associating them selfs with the Us Army rangers and
    Special Forces? I've just got to get their names and do some checking with
    some folks back at Ft Bragg, no Ranger would have done that, believe me
    because I'm an Ex Ranger. They didn't teach us how to kill indescriminent
    like that. God I'm so p..... Off, you all wouldn't believe it.
       THE MAD MAX

    Message: 67535
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Thanks
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:04:10

    Bill, yes I did boil water but I also sat behind and held Jasmine in
    position.  My little son Jon kept giving me fresh cloths soaked in cool
    water so I could mop Jasmine's brow.  Jon grew rather pale in the final
    moments but Melody who is around 5 or 6 kept very cool during the entire
    event.

    It's been quite a week not only from the heat of the past week but Jasmine's
    delivery and then two and a half days later my daughter Christian had a
    little girl delivered at home.

    Jeff, isn't Christian around 12 or 13, I forget, which?

    It has been a busy period for me.

    Message: 67536
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thanks again
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:08:25

    I thank all of you for your nice message on the baby.

    Special note to Bob T.:  But I did most of the original work.

    Message: 67537
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Apollo
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:26:53

    I have a lot of material to study since I haven't been on here since last
    Wednesday.

    I will just say that I believe that religion in general has caused and is
    still causing damage to this world.

    It is the opiate of the masses.

    Somehow I see the world as being a better place without it.  One does not
    need religion in order to have morals.

    Message: 67538
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's Murder?
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:43:38

            It was an improper choke hold that killed the suspect.  In the
    police depatment they teach you how to do a correct choke hold, and even out
    at USMA, they have shown the correct way so as not to cause death.

            Second, the jerk should have never said..."Get the gun".   You never
    use those words to bluff.  If ya can't BITE, don't bark!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67539
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Death at Smitty's
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:15:59

            Right on Clif, if you can't bite, don't bark! The guys at Smitty's
    were under a load of pressure (any retailer is, wit the bad check problem)
    and they acted so. They went too far, they exercised too much force, and
    they didn't do it right. (There is a right way to do it, right Mad Max?)
    They did it wrong. But I don't think it is time to call them murderers--I
    think they acted the best way they could with the info they had at hand. I
    hope I act in a wiser fashion if called upon.    --John C.--

    Message: 67540
    Author: Ronnie Coffin
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Crossroads BBS
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:28:03

    I am announcing that beginning this Monday, The Crossroads BBS is offering
    FREE membership validation (a $35.00 value) to all new callers plus a credit
    for 120 minutes of free time.

    This is a multiline system with on-line games and over 200 megabytes of
    files.  It is run on a Cray workstation!

    CALL THE CROSSROADS:  941-2005  24 hrs.  300/1200/2400/9600

    Message: 67541
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Guest List
    Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:33:52

    Ann Oudin
    Beauregard Dog
    Bill Burkett
    Bob Thornburg
    Gordon Little
    Jeff Beck
    Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
    Melissa Dee
    (( space ))
    Mike Carter
    (( space ))
    Mike Kielsky
    Pat Stoddard
    Paul Savage
    Rod Williams
    Shirley Bear
    Steven Carls
    Todd Reese

    Re: Cake & Paul Savage...   Smitty's.... thanks!  Welcome back!

    Anyone else?  Roger Mann?  Hans Glans?   ?   ?  and so on......

    Message: 67542
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: baseball
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:11:29

    Public taxes should go toward public facilities; essential public works,
    such as roads and utilities.  That's it.  If you want a stadium, fine, you
    finance it.

    Message: 67543
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/babies
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:14:53

    Yes, I think Christian turns thirteen next month.  Is she still dating that
    Guru from Oregon?  If he really wants he to be his chief wife, fine, but get
    it in writing.

    Message: 67544
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/last
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:00:21

    No, she married a Mormon from Oregon.  She is one of many.

    Message: 67545
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:02:36

    Smith's Super Market set the whole thing up.  They paid professional actors
    to play the part of the policemen and the bad check artist.  Now Smith's
    will try for a leveraged buy out of that chain.

    Message: 67547
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C./ planner
    Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:07:18

    If you are trying to lead me to the conclusion that there is a 'planner'
    who planned everything then I do not think that you will be fruitful in
    your endeavor.

    Let us suppose, for argument sake that a being exists that planned every
    detail of every human and, of course, left the incidentals, such as what
    each snow flake would look like and what color something would be to Mother
    Nature.

    Now, everything is all planned out for all eternity.

    We then must realize in these pea-sized brains of ours that eternity is a
    mighty long while, to say the very least.

    But in truth I believe that theory is a bit backwards.  Each instant is
    new, so to speak, it can only take the action that is caused by other
    actions of greater or sometimes lesser value.

    From the very beginning of life in the universe, one action causes another
    action, for infinity.

    If you currently believe that a planner caused the first life in this
    universe then that would be in error because what planner caused the
    planner.  Life would have to have always existed which is a paradox.

    It is really impossible to correctly say how life came about but I would
    hazard a guess that since it did then life in the universe is like building
    blocks and one is put upon another, forever.  Everything is not
    pre-planned as you indicate.

    If something were planned then it could only be planned for a certain
    period but when the plans are all played out, like players on a stage, then
    what lies ahead would be not planned.  This is a rather shallow theory on
    your part and does not contain good scientific thought.

    However, if you are into sci-fi and the like then why not?

    If events of humans are planned out then a certain percentage of us are
    ascertained to fail even before being created.  And if everyone who ever
    will be created is already accounted for then the planner must have
    everything down and understood.  How marvelous.  And for all of eternity no
    less.

    Sorry, I cannot buy that theory as it is too week.  Give it some more
    thought and then see what you come up with.

                                            Rod

    e*=&PH
    VOICE

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