### Apollo BBS Archive - July 21, 1987

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Christians Haven Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Christians Haven Bulletin Board command:R

    Message: 245
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 07/17/87  Time: 15:19:05

    This board is dead.
    Maybe Oral Roberts could bring it back to life...

    Message: 246
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Atheism
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:16:56

    Next week (7/25) we will have Dr. Robert Morey on our radio program.  He is
    the author of "The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom" as well as the
    book "Death and the Afterlife."  The program is live and call-in, so if you
    have some questions for him, feel free to call in between 3 and 4 PM at
    278-5555.

    Message: 247
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Theology
    Subject: Oral Roberts
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 21:40:09

    Oh Oral, who art on Heaven's right hand,
    hollow is thy game,
    Thy T.V. Kingdom come
    On Cable as it is on Air
    Forgive us our tresspasses
    as you forgive those with grudges against you.
    For thou art The Lord on Earth.
    For ever and ever, past the Neilsen ratings
    Ahmed.
                                      Well, exxxcuuuuuuuuuuuussse
                                             Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

                                         -Mike

    Message: 248
    Author: $ Carol Graham
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: just want to say
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 00:09:33

    Hi!  First time I have been on in weeks and this is
    the first board I visited.
    Jesus also spoke a lot, Jim, about the Second Coming.
    But I agree with you that he spoke about Hell more
    than we would think. It is interesting that in the
    Old Testament that subject is very hard to locate.

    I can't recall where I was reading - but yesterday
    I saw (in the Bible) that the separation from God
    and from good is what is going to make hell a hell.

    Interesting, too, that hell was created for Satan and
    the fallen angels...not for mankind. However, those
    that choose that side, I guess, will follow their
    leader (and I didn't mean to be facetious about it).

    carol

    Message: 249
    Author: $ Carol Graham
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: taste of hell
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 00:15:23

    One time I had a tooth extracted under the calming
    influence of gas.
    I could feel every single thing...yet I didn't realize
    what I was feeling. There was a horrible buzzing in my
    ears and this horrible, horrible pain that kept increasing
    while I was swirling around and around. Each time around
    - the pain increased. I remember (in my nightmare there)
    thinking that I was in hell...and the thought of being
    there eternally with each swirl increasing the pain, with
    no relief in sight, forever and ever...my gosh, if I
    hadn't been a Christian, I think that would have made
    me fall on my knees after coming out of the anesthetic.

    I was talking to a man one day about God. He was giving
    me all his athiestic answers and laughing and scoffing
    because I believed in God and Jesus. A week later he was
    dead, and I suffered such anguish inside thinking of his
    actually being in a state of separation from God, that it
    was debilitating, to say the least.

    carol->

    Message: 250
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James/Rod
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 11:40:19

            I try to make it a point not to discuss religion with Rod on the BBS
    and even when I am over at his house.
            I told Rod about Jesus and Salvation and Believing and all the other
    relevant points in the 'Salvation Package'. I have sown the seed as far as
    Rod is concerned.
            I ignore, to the best of my ability, Rods slanderous statements. To
    me, Rod has a real problem, and the only thing I know to do is to just Pray
    for him.
            I find it sad to hear that other Christians refuse to log on to
    Apollo because of a raving, tormented soul. Sometimes, the best thing to do
    is to ignore a person who wants to argue for arguments sake, and wait for
    that person to ask because he 'really' wants to know.
            I will be very distressed if Rod 'kicked' the bucket before turning
    from his present ways as I am sure the Angels in Heaven will mourn for him
    as well. And you, James, I am sure that you will feel a tinge of remorse for
    Rod's eternal damnation and you just might wish that you had done more. Who
    knows ..... right?
            Please, do not let Rod get to you. Try to see above his ploys and
    tactics. He is obnoxious but he also needs help. If his help is to come by
    way of a BBS then God will know that Apollo will be here for Rod.

                    Sandy Sysop

    Message: 251
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 14:59:58

    I tend to agree, in one sense.  Rod is attempting to "enlighten" everyone,
    and he does this by using methods he's seen Christians use -- repitition
    and wearing down.  If you don't like what he has to say, ignore him.
    Anyone who Rod drives away from this BBS has no business here; like it or
    not (I like it) this BBS is a marketplace of ideas, some offensive, some
    incredibly insightful.  Anyone who can't handle that isn't ready
    for the Information Age, much less Apollo.
    I also think your view of Rod as "tormented" is a bit condescending.  Rod is
    content with his life the way it is, and he sees himself as having a mission
    to remove the cloud of religion from peoples' eyes -- not an entirely
    useless mission, in fact, since misguided Christians throughout history have
    done much to set back scientific progress.
    So work on Rod.  Try to show him the error of his ways.  But do not reject
    him, or attack him because of his beliefs.  He may be misguided, but he is
    not hypocritical.  That may seem like a subtle point, but it wasn't to
    Jesus.  Check out how Jesus dealt with the Samaritan woman in John 4.

    Message: 252
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 12:24:42

    Its not just Rod - though I have never spoken with a more blasphemous person
    in my entire life - its the others who side with Rod.  I can't believe that
    there are posts on the main board about how unfair I am!  Unbelievable!  The
    double standards are so glaring, that I am spending what little time I have
    either on the Christian boards or on CarolCom.  When it comes time to renew
    my $tatus membership, I'll have to have a darn good reason to bother.
    And about Rod - help him?  How?  Haven't we all tried?  He cannot enter into
    rational conversation, that's for sure.  So Sandy's answer is the only one -
    pray for him!  But I don't need a BBS to do that.

    Message: 253
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 13:52:38

    The problem is that Rod attacks God, and when you then attack Rod, you are
    seen as the first one making a personal attack.  That's really true -- you
    should keep the arguement on a better level.  I know that Rod attack
    Christians in general, and occasionally specifically, but you shouldn't let
    him get to you.  He doesn't really mean anything by it, he's just trying to
    get them angry so they'll think, instead of just believing the things they
    were taught to believe.
    In any case, if you think the best way to help Rod is to run away, go ahead.

    *=* Post Office entered *=*

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 00:56:40

    I am taking these attacts that Christians are brain dead etc serious...
    You are in violation of the ules and will be put in the antom Zome
    if you get insulting with name calling again...  I have lost dozzens of
    users because of you..and that is no exageration...    I am glad to be a
    Christian and not to be like you... how insulting can you get?  MOST
    CHRistians do not attack people like that...  Go prove your point on another
    board if you wish to be rude to your fellow man.

    SYSOP
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I AM  just having a 'hearty' debate with my fellow men, although it is they
     2:who cannot handle it.   Hmmmmmm Must be weak minds, that is the only
     3:possible reason I can think of.
     4:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...

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    *=* $tatus Club Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1573
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann/King
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 01:35:55

    Yes,  they were all 4 released in a big book and I
    read them all in that book. I am now attempting to collect
    all 4 books in their original paperback versions.
    I have 'The Long Walk' and I am having someone check on the
    other 3 for me now.  I also have 'The Dark Tower'
    and 'The Dark Tower II' in hard back.
    There seems to be quite a bit of money in King books.
    I have heard of an original first printing of Salem's Lot in
    hardcover going for over $800.

    Message: 1574
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Howerton
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 08:49:24

    I get a Stephen King newspaper once a month and they have a for sale page
    with loads of S.K. books and yes your certainly right about some of those
    books going for a fortune. When Pet Sematary came out I had bought it in
    hardcover. I lent it to somebody and when I got it back, the cover was
    missing. Didn't think too much about it til I got the paper and saw where
    that particular hard cover with that cover would sell, if in good shape -
    for $135!!!
    This newspaper is called Castle Rock and is solely about S.k. and his
    everyday doings. By the way - there is a rumor going around that "IT" is
    going to either be his last horror novel or his last novel period!!! In that
    paper they hinted he was giving up writing and in a Time book - there was a
    big article about him and he said quite causally that It was the last book.
    OF course, one never knows when his kidding or not. Gads - I can't conceive
    of a life without Stephen King!!! --- ANN ---

    Message: 1575
    Author: $ Nikki Kalua
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: Books
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 09:09:12

    My mother bought me "When Rabbit Howls", a documentary written by a women
    with 92 different personalities.  Should be interesting.  I have read
    "Sybil" and "The Three Faces of Eve" but they were not written by Sybil and
    Eve themselves.

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 45247
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Lippard
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 22:47:44

    If everything were already blue, what would be the point of painting it
    blue?

    Message: 45248
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/20/87  Time: 23:43:02

    But the second statement makes no mention of painting it blue.

    Message: 45249
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Adkins
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 01:10:46

    Lippard's universe, then, would be a universe without paint.  This would be
    terrible.  People would not be able to paint their cars, so they would rust
    very quickly.  People would not be able to paint their houses, so the wood
    would rot very quickly.  There would be no great paintings and many art
    museums would have to close.  I'm sorry, but I would not want to live in
    Lippard's universe.

    Message: 45250
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lippard's universe
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 01:13:24

    Other things would be wrong with Lippard's universe as well.  There would be
    nothing to eat (who's ever heard of blue food?), all movies would be
    pornographic, and there would be no music to enjoy, unless you like the
    blues.

    Moreover, if Lippard is an empiricist, a universe in which everything is
    blue would be logically impossible, because the lack of food would mean
    people would be unable to survive, and no one would be able to experience
    all the blueness, so there would be no blue.

    Message: 45251
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 10:27:24

    I'm glad I didn't choose red.

    Message: 45252
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto/blue
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 11:20:01

    I'm sure we can all see that JT took a completely nonsensical TANGENT
    instead of continuing the discussion about the need for a yang for a yin to
    exist.

    Rev. Beau

    Message: 45254
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 11:59:04

    Are you trying to say he blue it?

    Anyway, I've seen blue corn chips (made from blue corn, of course) at
    Hanson's.

    Message: 45255
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Repentance/Lippard
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 12:20:43

         In regards to a point brought up by Dennis McKinsey on our
    debate last Saturday - the term "perfect" (NASB: "blameless") used
    of Job and Noah is the Hebrew term "tam" (or "tamim").  The
    major definition, according to the lexicon of Brown, Driver and
    Briggs is "be complete, finished."  The noun form is defined as
    "completeness, integrity."  The adjective form is used to de-
    scribe something that is complete or sound.  From this it is
    clear that one can NOT attach the sense of "sinless" to the
    term "tam."  Therefore, Mr. McKinsey's attempt to stretch the
    word to mean this, as well as Jim Lippard's following of
    McKinsey's lead on page 8 of his "Fundamentalism is Non-
    sense" are without foundation from the text itself.
        Also on page 8 of FIN we find the statement that the early
    Hebrews were polytheists.  Untrue.  Henotheist, possibly.  In
    the development of getting to monotheism, yes.  Their
    Scriptures were completely monotheistic; it may have taken
    Abram and Isaac a little while to get it through their heads
    that there was only one God - such can hardly be blamed on the
    Scriptures.  However, the main point of bringing this up is
    Jim's statement concerning "Elohim" and "El."  Both forms
    occur throughout the OT, and the deciding factor in translation
    is the verb used (singular or plural).  Therefore, Jim's statement
    that it is "translated correctly" in Genesis 1:26 is completely
    fallacious - the noun does not matter here - the verb does.

    Message: 45256
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last few
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 13:56:42

    So which is more relevant, Taranto's arguement with Lippard, or White's?
    (I could have said James' arguement with Jim or James', but that wouldn't
    have made much sense.)

    Message: 45257
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DEA BBS
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 14:49:39

    The Phoenix Drug Enforcement Agency has a BBS.  It's 300/1200 bps, and the
    number is 253-3891.
      Someone should upload the recent Reason magazine article about the DEA.

    Message: 45258
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 18:05:25

    ...
      The idea that colonies of social insects are somehow
    equivalent to vast, multicreatured organisms, possessing a
    collective intelligence and a gift for adaptation far
    superior to the sum of the individual inhabitants, had its
    origin in the papers of the eminent entomologist, William
    Morton Wheeler, who proposed the term Superorganism to
    describe the arrangement.  From 1911 to the early 1950s this
    ranked as a central notion in entomology, attracting the
    attention of many fascinated nonentomologists.  Maeterlinck
    and Marais wrote best-selling books on the presumed soul
    that must exist somewhere in the nests of ants and termites.
      Then, unaccountably, the whole idea abruptly dropped out
    of fashion and sight.  During the past quarter-century
    almost no mention of it is made in the proliferation of
    scientific literature in entomology.  It is not talked
    about.  It is not just that the idea has been forgotten; it
    is as though it had become unmentionable, an embarrassment.
      It is hard to explain.  The notion was not shown to be all
    that mistaken, nor was it in conflict with any other, more
    acceptable view of things.  It was simply that nobody could
    figure out what to do with such an abstraction.  There it
    sat, occupying important intellectual ground, at just the
    time when entomology was emerging as an experimental science

    Message: 45259
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/21/87  Time: 18:16:58

    of considerable power, capable of solving matters of
    intricate detail, a paradigm of the new reductionism.  This
    huge idea - that individual organisms might be
    self-transcending in their relation to a dense society - was
    not approachable by the new techniques, nor did it suggest
    new experiments or methods.  It just sat there, in the way,
    and was covered over by leaves and papers.  It needed
    heuristic value to survive, and this was lacking.
      "Holism," a fabricated word, has been applied to concepts
    like the Superorganism.  One wonders whether this word may
    not itself have scared off some investigators; it is a word
    with an alarming visage.  General Jan Smuts, who invented it
    out of whole cloth in 1926, might have done better with
    "Wholism"; it would have served the same etymological
    purpose and might have been just secular enough to survive
    this kind of century.  As it is, there is doubt for its
    future.  Holism is in some of the scientific glossaries but
    has not yet made it into most standard dictionaries of
    English.  It got as far as the Supplement volume of the new
    OED, which is something, but not enough to assure survival.
    Perhaps it will die away, along with Superorganism.
      I cannot quarrel with any of this.  If an idea cannot move
    on its own, pushing it doesn't help; best to let it lie
    there.

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