### Apollo BBS Archive - December 16, 1991

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    $ Rod        Williams   23:29:22 (1200)
    $ Funky      Alf        21:41:36 (2400)
    $ Beauregard Dog        21:27:25 (2400)
    $ Green      Lantern    21:25:10 (2400)
    $ Melissa    Dee        19:57:32 (2400)
      James      Matlock    19:23:15 (1200)
    $ Dan        Derwin     18:44:08 (2400)
    $ Dan        Derwin     18:39:51 (2400)
      Daniel     Derwin     18:39:08 (2400)
      Ray        Morrell    17:59:06 (2400)
    $ Dean       McCarron   17:45:34 (2400)
    $ Fred       Smith      15:59:47 (2400)
    $ Green      Lantern    12:39:01 (1200)
    $ Fred       Smith      11:24:26 (2400)
    $ Ann        Oudin      10:48:44 (2400)
    $ Daryl      Westfall   10:34:46 (1200)
    $ Fred       Smith      08:08:31 (2400)
    $ Fred       Smith      07:32:25 (2400)
    $ Green      Lantern    07:29:22 (1200)
    $ Archi      Medes      07:21:10 (1200)
    $ Mike       McNeill    06:19:47 (2400)
    $ Paul       Savage     05:50:06 (1200)
    $ Don        Hicks      01:32:20 (1200)
    $ Rod        Williams   01:04:59 (1200)

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    Message: 5253
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cars/Shit
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 08:10:49

    I wonder which produced more shit in the last 100 years - volcanos, kuwait
    oil fields burning, or cars?

    Message: 5254
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Last
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 08:46:26

    More shit in the LAST 100 years...

            The Coal burning industrial complex....  Cars is a scap goat!

    Message: 5255
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Quickie
    Subject: Last few
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 20:01:13

    Gee, I'm so glad we are using the X-rated sig for these Adult debates...
    :)

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Cars

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Fucking cars (hope that makes you feel better Melissa).
     2:
     3:Yes, that's it, the burning of coal for the manufacturing of cars, plus the
     4:cars themselves.
     5:
     6:Which effects our health more, auto emissions, volcanos or oil fires in
     7:Kuwait?
     8:end

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    Message: 1999
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Saavik
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 06:45:23

    I believe Kirstie Alley (now Rebecca on _Cheers_) played Saavik in II.

    Whatever happened to that bald babe who was in one of the early ST films?

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    Subject:Bald babe

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     1:She got a wig?
     2:end

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    Message: 80592
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Missing Bill
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 05:55:27

     Now I can't remember what surely must have been "one of the shining
    moments" of my life! OH! Cruel world! I think I shall go out in the garden
    and dig some worms for supper! WHen can we meet again, so that I can renew
    my sagging memory?

    Message: 80593
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Vote
    Subject: XMAS TREE (?)
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 06:44:55

    Uh... okay.

    Thanks for the explanation.

    Message: 80594
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul's Memory
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 06:49:28

    Alas, Paul, your memory has long since passed out of warranty.  It cannot be
    renewed.

    (Gosh.  I'll have to make up something really good to tell you about
    something hideous you did the first time we met.  I believe it was at a bar
    in Guadalupe...)

    Message: 80595
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Why save FRNs
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 07:45:12

    Most people DON"T save FRNs.  Arch has done a good job of confusing the
    issue.  FRNs serve two purposes - As a medium of exchange, and as a way for
    the gvt to borrow money.  They are NOT "wealth" and it is nonsensical to
    "save" them.  When you put them in a bank in a NON-interest bearing acct,
    you ARE, for all practical purposes, saving them.  But if you put them in an
    interest bearing acct then you are no really "saving" them anymore - you are
    investing them.  The proper use of FRNs is to invest them and preferably in
    such a way that they "gain" at least enough to offset the inflation rate.
    That is not likely to be easy to do in a bank account, but that is not the
    FRNs fault.  Of course, the other proper use for FRNs is as a medium of
    exchange.  It's true that there is an appeal in the idea of having a "money"
    that in and of itself has "true value" and that would be fine if such
    systems actually worked but ther~re really is no historical basis to believe
    that such a "true value money" will work any better then a paper system.
    There are so many factors that impact on the economy that it is really
    simplistic, IMHO, to try and ascribe all the good things that happen during
    a 50 year period to the "gold" standard and to try and ascribe all the bad
    things that happen during some other period to "paper" money.  After all, we
    did have the tremendous post war boom in the economy during a time of paper
    money.  And we had quite a good economy only a few years ago, again during a
    "paper" money period.  While some people seem to think that a gold standard
    would somehow "keep the gvt in line" they seem to forget that there is
    nothing stopping the gvt from simply taxing the hell out of people under a
    gold standard and just as surely bleeding them dry as would happen with FRNs

    Message: 80596
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/accept gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 07:49:52

    Under what circumstances did you accept gold? How did you determine how much
    to accept?  HOnestly, if you had the cuda advertised for $3850 and someone
    came to you and said they'd llike to buy it but didn't have any money, only
    some gold, how much gold would you want from them?  Would it be about 10
    ounces??  And once you had the gold, what would you do with it?  Gold could
    only be expected to keep up with the inflation rate but if you INVESTED it
    in the "right" investment (say apartments during a period of apts shortages
    like we had 15 years ago) you would do far better then just keeping up with
    inflation.

    Message: 80597
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Modem trouble
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 07:51:08

    I get line noise on this BBS all the time no matter what modem I use or
    where I call from.  I think CLiff has a noisy line!!

    Message: 80598
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gold/Death
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 07:53:22

    Rod,
    Wouldn't it be a "trip" to die by having 216 cubic feet of gold fall on
    you!!

    Message: 80599
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 07:55:27

    You are too kind. And obvious a very discerning person!

    Message: 80600
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Death

    Public Bulletin Board command:EA

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    Subject:Fred/216 cu.ft.gold

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Hey, I'd die rich, rich, rich.  (Just joking)  What is rich anyway?
     2:end

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    Message: 80600
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Death
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 08:01:55

    I can only think of two reasons for not being ready to die - 1) I'd miss my
    loved ones and 2) I'd miss out on all the neat things that the future holds,
    assuming the "neat" will outweigh the bad!!  To be alive simply to not be
    dead holds no attraction in and of itself.

    Message: 80601
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category:

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Fred/Death

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Scientifically speaking nothing dies, only changes.  Perhaps I died and
     2:changed into a human animal.  Yuk.  Better luck next time, eh?
     3:end

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    Message: 80601
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 09:09:38

            I believe in the early years my uncle Walter told me it took him 20
    ounces of gold to buy a car...  It takes about 20 ounces today.

            Or it took about 700 FRNs back then, and it takes about 16000 of
    those FRNs to do it now.

            I fail to see how to spend an apartment building, I can spend gold
    easier... And I just might sell my Cuda for 10 ounces of Gold.

    Message: 80602
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Fred Smith
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 09:47:46

            Gee Fred, I know you can invest FRNs or anything of value if you
    really want.  But what bothers me a lot, is the government taxes you on
    number differance.

    You invest to try and fight inflation (invest 100 FRNs and get back 150
    FRNs and the IRS takes it's 40% cut of the 50 FRNs because you made a PROFIT
    (in numbers only) of 50 FRNs (now only 30 FRNs after taxes)) but before your
    investment you could buy your cigarettes for one FRN, now it takes two FRNs.

    With my gold... if I had 100 ounces and just kept them... I still have 100
    ounces of gold... no profit but my gold will buy the same amount as it did
    before.

            Everyone could conceivably save gold or silver, but it is difficult
    for everyone to save apartment buildings letting the low-life to strip out
    the copper plumbing if not watched around the clock.  I myself do not like
    to be tied down this much.

    Message: 80603
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 11:26:24

    You spend your apt building by converting it into money de jur.  What
    difference does it make whether you convert it to FRNs, gold, or sea
    shells??  Money is USELESS except as a medium of exchange.

    Message: 80604
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 20 ounces of gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 11:31:19

    Sounds fishy to me.  Are you sure he was really remembering how many ounces
    or was he recalling something from the past and did a fast mental conversion
    from FRNs back to gold and hence came up with 20 ounces?  But even if he
    did, that was only due to the ARTIFICAL restraint that was put on the value
    of gold by the US Gvt!!  You guys want to have it both ways.  You want the
    gvt to get out of the monetary business but you also want the gvt to dictate
    the value of Gold.  You can't do BOTH!!!

    Message: 80605
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ARch 1/1
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 11:32:07

           Arch, I didn't have time to properly address your mano-a-mano
    response to my post on how you were going to build a bridge with just your
    "skills".  I think you entirely missed the point I was *trying* to make.

           No matter how many or how good ones skills are they are pretty much
    worthless without access to and control of "raw" material.  The worlds
    best apartment manager cannot make money if he doesn't have an apartment
    building.  The worlds best farmer cannot grow crops if he doesn't have a
    farm.  I'm trying to show the distinction between "real wealth" that is
    used to either live directly off of (the farm) or to make money from (the
    apt building).  The man who owns some gold cannot eat it, nor can he live
    off it for long since spending it will eventually result in it all being
    gone.  Gold is NOT real wealth.  A Gold Mine IS real wealth in todays
    world.  But I don't think you had in mind that we would all own a gold
    mine.  Of course, if we did all own a gold mine it would ruin you system
    anyways as the value of gold is based on scarcity, not plentitude.

    Message: 80606
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CLiff/gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 11:38:55

    Even if gold did hold it's value that still fails to address the major
    disparity between hoarding gold and thereby making  nothing off of it, and
    INVESTING your wealth and thereby INCREASING it.  What wealthy person can
    you name who got wealthy by hoarding gold?  It just doesn't work that way.
    The best you could hope for by hoarding is to live at a lower standard now
    so that you have something to spend later when you aren't working.  IN fact,
    hoarding is such a bad idea that that is EXACTLY why banks make so much
    money.  The only difference is that many people hoard their "cash" and
    thereby lose out rather then hoarding gold and lose out.  You have to invest
    your "money" if you want to make money. (Actually , it's your "wealth" you
    are investing.)

    Message: 80607
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 12:19:55

            The money you use (plastic and FRNs) is worthless as you say.
    Gold and Silver have value and can be used for many things.. though out
    history gold and silver has been there.  Not just in this country, but in
    any civilized country you can exchange gold/silver for whatever... even if
    the United States Government totaly fails!

    Message: 80608
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 16:06:38

    I don't disagree that gold and silver have intrinsic value.  I only disagree
    with the idea that all (or really any) of our problems would be solved by
    going to a gold standard.  And as far as the fact that gold and silver can
    be exchanged for whatever, that true of wheat and leather and etc when it
    comes down to a situatin where we *really* need to concern ourselves with
    using gold for trade.  Doesn't it seem a little foolish to be planning for
    something (total economic chaos) that has never occured and is not likely to
    occur and that very very few of us could afford, in terms of stashing away
    enough gold to be "enough" , anyways??  Do you also keep a years supply of
    wheat on hand?  Gasoline? Meat? Canned goods?  Hows that bomb shelter these
    days????  To me, I just don't see any rational economic reason to be
    stashing away mass quantities of gold.  In the long run it will do no more
    then keep up with inflation which makes it a poor quality investment.

    Message: 80609
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 17:06:52

            Keeping up with inflation is better then losing to inflation holding
    FRNs.  Let's face it, not everyone can be a landlord and own a building. Not
    everyone can invest in sound adventures.  Everyone paid in Coin of worth
    could count on it to retain value without having to spend it the minute
    they earn it as you would need to do now  with FRNs to get its value in
    goods.  This also is not practical.

            As for enough gold... In a collaps, things would be much cheaper..
    An ounce of gold would buy more then what you could get for a wheelbarrow
    full for FRNs.  NOTHING and I mean NOTHING is backing FRNs.  Gold, silver,
    tin, (real tin) or almost any mineral has more value then 'paper'.  To put
    your faith in 'paper' is to live in a house of cards.  Very fragile indeed.

            For me to feel my 'dollars' would buy me just as many goods when I
    retire as it would now, would be a good feeling indeed. Under the current
    system, this can't happen.  My hour of labor should still be worth an hour
    of labor when I cash it in 20 years from now.

            Fred...thinks we should invest, then pay a tax on the gain, when
    there is no gain at all except in the number of FRNs that now have a lesser
    value then the FRNs invested.   Sigh... so smart, yet so blind.

    Message: 80610
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff/gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 19:37:07

    So what happened to the gold people bought back (in the 70's?) when it was
    around $800 an ounce?  Now it's less than $400 an ounce.  Some investment!
    It seems to me that, like the stock market, the precious metals commodities
    market is only a good investment if you buy at the right time and sell at
    the right time.

    If I buy an ounce of gold and it retains about the same dollar value over
    several months (and it's been pretty stable of late) I am not even keeping
    up with inflation.  I will admit I have not been following the price of
    gold, but it would be interesting to stop by the library one day and see how
    it has varied.

    Message: 80611
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Interesting...
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 20:13:00

    There are the same number of "Christians" who will not be having a real tree
    this year as there are "Atheists".   As for the Solstice tree, it's beyond
    me why anyone who is celebrating the earth would rip out a tree from her
    loins.
    Since you already claim we atheists are bitter over wording, Cliff, I
    thought it was interesting the only choices were christian or atheist.  I
    guess you meant anyone not believing in Christ so that would cover Buddists,
    Jews, etc.

    Message: 80612
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last..
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 22:31:45

            So far, only you atheists have complained about my wording.  You miz
    Dee, prove my point.  Rod proves my point as well.   While on the subject of
    Rod, every time in the past, when at his home at Christmas time.. He had
    a REAL tree...  "Kill a tree to celebrate life" was his moto.  I don't know
    about now though...  I may have shamed him into an artificial tree.  I on
    the other hand, have NEVER HAD A TREE in my house.

            Miz Dee: Re: "the only choices were christian or atheist."

            I also mentioned agnostics and etc... covering everyone who was NOT
    a Christian in the last part of the question.  The first part was ONLY for
    those believeing in Christ... Hence CHRISTmas tree. Miz Dee, PLEASE
    ((((READ)))) the ote question again... You construct a strawman, then
    proceed to push him into the fire....

            I don't really care if people choose a tree to celebrate or not, I
    just find it hypocritical when non-Christians do so...  I am not bitter,
    just amused.

            Merry Christmas to all you Christians...  A Merry (?) Whatever to
    the rest of you...

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80613
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James Matlock/Gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 23:22:08

            Well, I think only a fool would buy gold on a 'high spike' in its
    value curve.  If Gold was readily used, there would be no panic buying and
    it would remain more constant.  When you get a sudden surge in buying almost
    anything, the price may zoom up momentarily.  However, you did bring up an
    interesting point and I will ask an expert on his thoughts.  I know a guy
    who really has LOTS of gold.  No, he is not a BBS user

            I had better also admit, I am more into silver one ounce coins more
    so then gold.  If nothing else...I like them!

    Message: 80614
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Fred/216 cu.ft.gold
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 23:37:18

    Hey, I'd die rich, rich, rich.  (Just joking)  What is rich anyway?

    Message: 80615
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/Death
    Date: 12/17/91  Time: 23:38:55

    Scientifically speaking nothing dies, only changes.  Perhaps I died and
    changed into a human animal.  Yuk.  Better luck next time, eh?

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