### Apollo BBS Archive - June 8 - 11, 1989

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 5593
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: DeConcini
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:26:07

        When I first heard about Senator DeConcini's proposed bill to ban
    the sale of certain semi-automatic firearms, and treat persons already
    legally owning such firearms as a dangerous menace to society, I called
    his office and registered my disagreement with it. I did not elaborate
    much, only saying that it would not serve to deter crime in any way and
    could not be justified.
        Yesterday I received from DeConcini's office an envelope containing,
    a copy of the bill and his introductory testimony from the Congressional
    Record; a letter from him supporting the bill; and (imagine the gall
    required here!)  a copy of the National Rifle Association's letter
    recommending DeConcini to its members BEFORE the last election. To add
    insult to injury, the NRA's letter of endorsement had been extended by
    DeConcini's staff to include a page from The Arizona Republic claiming
    that a telephone poll had proven that voters in the Phoenix area favor
    a ban on semi-automatic firearms by a huge margin. This poll, which used
    a question which could easily be misleading and was obviously weighted in
    favor of a 'yes' response, concluded from only 420 opinions that seven
    out of ten valley voters support banning such firearms.
        In his letter he quotes Barry Goldwater as saying that he has
    never owned a semi-auto or used one for hunting, so nobody has any need
    for one. It does no credit to either Goldwater or DeConcini to publicize
    such a foolish and short-sighted position, and it makes one thankful that
    Goldwater is no longer in office now that he is going senile. It has no
    more bearing that Goldwater has never used a semi-auto for hunting
    than it does that I and many others have. Not everyone can afford a
    golf bag full of guns to cover every occasion, and a semi-auto rifle is a
    very good solution for anyone who needs one firearm capable of being
    used for everything from hunting to target shooting to emergency
    service as a defense tool (some of us don't get body-guards, but plan to
    be prepared to defend our families if required anyway, Barry!). All this
    talk of 'sporting use' is nothing but a diversion, since it is the right to
    individual and collective DEFENSE, not just hunting, which the Second
    Amendment protects.
        The main argument DeConcini advances is that he is a great
    believer in the right to bear arms and his bill is meant to pre-empt the
    even more abusive bill proposed by Senator Metzenbaum. Since DeConcini's
    bill would only outlaw nine existing styles of firearm instead of the
    twenty-five targeted by Metzenbaum, and his would just create a huge
    new record keeping nightmare (with a $1000 fine, six months in prison,
    and permanent forfeiture of civil rights as the penalty for failure to
    put yourself on their 'future confiscation' list), he can't understand why
    gun-owners haven't rushed to him with open arms.

        If he really wanted to help, he shouldn't have forced those who
    defend the Bill of Rights to waste valuable resources, which could have
    been used to fight the Metzenbaum bill, on defeating his own assault on
    the Second Amendment.
        I plan to write something back to him about this, and I'll probably
    post it when I get it done. Maybe I should try to get a few more people
    to sign it also, to show that some of us are paying attention out here.
        See You Later,
          Dean H.

    p.s.(there is a rally planned for Saturday, June 17 from 8 to 10AM at
    Jefferson and 18th Ave to show opposition to this useless harassment.)

    Message: 5596
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean/your posts
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 08:18:05

    Very informative! I firmly believe that this bill they want to pass is the
    first step against taking our guns away from us. As long as we have them, we
    are free and the government knows that. Can you imagine what just happened
    in China happening here with us armed? There wouldn't have been 3,000
    citizens slaughtered for demonstrating. A lot of people would be killed, but
    we'd take a few armed guards with us.
    BYW .. can you tell me if we're the only country in the world that's allowed
    to bare arms? Hell, even the police force in England can't bare arms.
    The right to bare arms is even more important today than it's ever been with
    all the criminal elements roaming the streets - the gangs - the dope pushers
    that'll kill you at a drop of the hat! The police that really have no power
    over the criminals etc. etc. Heaven forbid a policeman kill anybody. He'd be
    in trouble. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 5597
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:21:09

    Most policeman in the US can't bare their arms.  (Some beach patrols in CA
    are probably the exceptions.)  Strict uniform enforcement, I believe.

    Message: 5598
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: right to bare arms
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 13:26:59

    It would really depend on how sensitive your skin is to sunlight.

    Message: 5599
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 14:53:30

      Some countries do allow some degree of gun ownership, but it is usually
    heavily regulated. None of them consider gun ownership a right upon which
    their form of government depends, as the founders of America did.
      See you later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 5600
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Dean's letter
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 17:00:06

            Sandy and I got the same letter last week and already sent out a
    reply (in the very next days mail)...  Maybe we will post ours aswell.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 5601
    Author: $ Jeannie Innajug
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: arms
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:18:32

    Hey...........................Everyone.................

    I can't believe a person who hates showing it off in a swim suit would want
    to bare her arms at all!

    See Y'aa..............
    Jeannie

    (P.S.  .........................

          If she did, you would no longer need to worry about them being
    "concealed"?)

    Message: 5602
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: DeConcini
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:20:57

    Re:  "(imagine the gall required here!)"

    Sounds just like ol' Dennis.

    Message: 5603
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:24:28

    Re:  "can you tell me if we're the only country in the world that's allowed
    to bare arms?"

    Well, I've traveled to a number of other countries and I've seen people with
    bare arms everywhere.

    Message: 5604
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: DeConcini
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 22:44:18

    Senator DeConcini:
         I appreciate receiving the copy of your proposed bill, along with
    your reasons for introducing it, in response to my earlier phone call to
    your office. I am still quite opposed to the bill however, and I would
    like to briefly explain why.
         The first consideration is whether or not this legislation would
    achieve it's stated purpose of reducing crime. There is no evidence, even
    after decades of such experiments at various levels of government here
    in the United States, that this or any other gun control scheme can
    actually reduce crime. I don't believe that any case can be made that
    violent criminal offenders will be deterred by either a ban on legal sales
    or additional record keeping requirements. I am sure that any honest
    appraisal of the situation would have to conclude that this approach
    actually diverts law enforcement resources away from real crime in
    order to harass gun owners for no practical purpose.
         I recognize that your aim was to preempt the Metzenbaum Bill with
    one which was not as bad, but we should force the opposition to prove
    their case, rather than rush to meet them halfway when we know that
    their whole approach is illogical and useless. They used all the same
    phoney  arguments unsuccessfully against handguns ('they are only made
    for killing people', 'they have no sporting purpose', 'nobody needs a right
    to that kind of a gun') and if we had 'accommodated' their irrational
    demands we would have been disarmed by degrees. Those statements, in
    case you are not aware, are just as false in regard to semi-automatic
    firearms as they were with handguns.
         Americans were guaranteed the right to bear arms for purposes of
    defending themselves and the Constitution. For government to restrict
    ownership of a firearm because it does not meet some contrived
    standard for 'sporting use' is contrary to the meaning of the Second
    Amendment. It would be just as wrong-headed as declaring that freedom
    of speech is only protected when the topic is 'sports'. While it should
    be kept in mind that 'sporting use' is not actually a valid criteria,
    those who speak of it should be informed that semi-automatic firearms
    are usable for hunting and other shooting sports. In fact, a semi-
    automatic rifle can make an excellent solution for anyone who needs one
    firearm which can be used for hunting and target shooting and be
    available for emergency use as a defensive tool.
         My conclusion is that since we all recognize that the Metzenbaum
    bill is a bad piece of legislation, we should be putting all our resources
    into opposing it. Senate Bill 747 diverts some of those resources at a
    most inopportune time.
         For the record, I do not own any firearm which would be effected
    by any of the proposed legislation and I am not involved in any firearm
    related business. Thank you for your attention.

    Message: 5606
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dear Jeannie
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:21:25

    Who said I didn't want to show off in a swim suit? Not I! In fact, just
    bought one for $50 and it's pretty brief - waiting for an Apollo Kontest!If
    there was one, would you show up in a bathing suit? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 5607
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: OK! OK! ..
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:23:21

    So I misspelled 'bare'! Give me twenty lashes with a wet noodle and lets
    forget it! I still say a 'bear' is an animal! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 5608
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Fire'arms
    Subject: Letter to DeConcini
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:44:58

         In response to your letter Dated May 4, 1989 and received May 27, 1989
    concerning S. 747 and S. 386 -- Gun Control:

         Using names to back your decision such as 'your colleagues', President
    Bush, and Ex-Senator Goldwater does not make a wrong a right.  You were put
    into your present position by the citizens of the State of Arizona not by
    'your colleagues', President Bush, or Ex-Senator Goldwater.

         How can anyone determine what is used for criminal activity?  There is
    such a wide spectrum of crime and criminal types.  Is this your and your
    governments way of saying that, eventually, everything that could
    conceivably cause harm to police officers or government officials will be
    banned?  Why not accommodate the honest citizen by straightening up the
    Judicial system.  I would say the answers are already there.  Make use of
    what we have now.  Stiffen penalties for the use of these semi-automatics
    and have the Courts hand down these stiff sentences and make the criminal
    serve his sentence in full.

         We do not see your need to quote Ex-Senator Goldwater.  He is a retired
    senior citizen who has lived his life.  His lifestyle is not that of the
    average Arizona citizen and he cannot be quoted as someone who is speaking
    for the citizens of Arizona.
    You may have been a friend of the NRA.  People throughout history have
    been known to change their views and beliefs.  We feel you are one of them.
    You may, at one point in time, have been an advocate of the NRA, but, we can
    not see where you are now.  Saying you are a friend of the pro-gun people
    and introducing the bill that you did do not go hand in hand.

         How can the NRA use their time to be heard by you when you will not
    listen to them?  We will, indeed, encourage the NRA to get involved in the
    current gun control negotiations.  The 'constructive' involvement you seek
    with the NRA can only happen when the NRA has turned traitor to the American
    people.

         We thank you for responding to our concerns.

         Firmly against S. 747 and S. 386,

    P.S. I proudly served in the defense of my country as a navy man for 4 years
         and now wonder why; as I see what I fought for being defeated from
         within.

                            (Letter written by Cliff and Sandy)

    Message: 5610
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: DeConcini & Letters
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:58:01

            I read Dean's letter and really liked it, so I uploaded the letter
    that Sandy and I sent to Senator Dennis DeConcini on May 27, 1989.
            There are others of you that are very talented in the art of letter
    writing and who believe in our freedom to arms as guaranteed by the
    Constitution of the United States of America.  Please take a few minutes and
    write one, so that the Un-Thinkers and the Misinformed don't get their way
    and disarm America.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 5611
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: a few minuets
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 10:08:35

    Sorry, I don't dance

    Message: 5612
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:20:03

            That is fine ........... dancing is not required ........
            just write the letter to DeConcini ........

    Message: 5613
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Entertainment
    Subject: Harry's War
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 23:56:22

    Movie: Harry's War
         I declare WAR on the I.R.S.

         Staring: Edward Herrmann, Geraldine Page, Karen Grassle and David Ogden
    Stiers.    (PG) by Image Home Video

    $40.00 from Dr. Robert Clarkson, 515 Concord Avenue, Anderson, S.C. 29621

    Or.... I have a copy rented (hard to find) till Monday night for viewing.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 5614
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: letters
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:14:11

    Both letters were very good.  I only gave Senator DeConcini my phone number
    when telling him my opposition to Senate Bill 747, so I doubt I will be
    hearing from him.  (Besides, after what I said to him over the Bork thing, I
    doubt he'll ever write me again).

    I would like to write a letter or my own.  What's the address?

    (I also get tired of the Goldwater thing.  He's such a crabby old man
    anymore, and every time he talks he shows how out-of-touch he is with
    reality.)

    Message: 5615
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Harry's War
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:19:02

            I saw that movie on cable several years ago.  I loved it so much
    that it is still a part of my memory.  I highly recommend it.

    Message: 5616
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Dean & SYSOPS
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:20:50

            The messages you wrote to DeConcini could easily be printed out and
    sent to various publications in the State.  In fact, the letter that Dean
    wrote explaining what he was going to do would make good copy.  -Rod

    Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 2309
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:24:09

            I would say Dean won ......
            Looks as if Gary came is second .......

    If all agree, I deem the contest over.
    Awards will be handed out as soon Cliff and I get a hardware order in for
    our laser printer.

            Good work, Dean .......

            Nice last minute entry, Gary .......

            Thank you all for your entries!
            They were all enjoyable.

    Message: 2310
    Author: $ Mike Howerton
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: movies
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 21:51:38

    Two movies that I would recommend are Field of Dreams and Dead Poet's
    Society.  Field of dreams is almost guaranteed to make the males in the
    audience cry and the females will probably get the idea also. Dead poet's is
    good as long as you don't go expecting to see another Good Morning Vietnam
    type movie. Robin Williams is in the movie but he isn't the centerpiece this
    time around.

    Computer Hacker SIG Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 179
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Bit Bucket Talk
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:02:12

    1.  Arizona Republic
    2.  I don't remember.
    3.  Because of (2), I can't be more specific.
    4.  Several boards were mentioned.
    5.  I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

    Message: 180
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bit Bucket Talk
    Subject: Todd?
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 17:10:48

            Was this recent?   I have been in Texas the past week... Tell me
    more... Do you still have this paper?   What was it about... Is this a JOKE?
    Who thought it was a pirate board?  I would like to find who wrote the
    article.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 181
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Commodore/Amiga
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 12:00:42

    1. No
    2. No
    3. It was about hackers and pirate boards.
    4. No, it's not a joke.
    5. The writer of the article.

    Message: 182
    Author: $ Michael James
    Category: Bit Bucket Talk
    Subject: Arizona Republic
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 13:30:44

    Sue it.

    Message: 183
    Author: $ Kim Paskiewicz
    Category: Bit Bucket Talk
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 05:22:02

      Lets sue for the big bucks and then put in more phone lines. Clif can also
    get a new computer, maybe a 80386. What do you think, snow balls chance in
    Az.

    Kim V. Paskiewicz A.S.B.B.Ser

    The outer COSmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 3145
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:03:10

    "If I'm a Dweez-Bag, then you're a Bobo Yaga."

    Message: 3146
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Daryl/#3144
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 07:59:26

    "Vacant Scrotal Sac." --- hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Now that's a good one!
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3147
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Todd/?
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 08:04:24

    Ok - I'll fall for it! What's a 'Bobo Yaga'??? Somehow, it does not sound
    offensive. I.E. .... "Did I tell you Sue that I finally divorced the rotten
    'Bobo Yaga' husband of mine?" However .. this sounds much better ...
    .. "Did I tell you Sue that I finally divorced the rotten Dweez Bag husband
    of mine"? See? 'Bobo Yaga' sound like a baseball manager or something.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3148
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 13:28:00

    A Bobo Yaga is very similar to a Cha Chi Bobo.

    Message: 3149
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Toddy
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:03:31

    Yeah -- "Did I tell you Sue that I finally got rid of my Cha Chi Bobo of a
    husband?" Naw! I've got a dog named Chachi and she's a sweet little thing.
    Hardly think it's an insult in the same category as Bitch! So far, Dweez Bag
    is good and fitting.
    Re: Douch Bag: I do not see the insult here! It's a cleaning device like a
    vacuum or mop. "Did I tell you Sue that I finally got rid of my vacuum of a
    husband?" Naw!
    Re: the difference between women and men insults: This morning over
    breakfast my husband was talking about some real estate broker he knows and
    refered to her as 'A bossy broad!" I stopped him in mid sentence and ask
    what the male equivelent was and he said "Advice consultant!" Men!
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3150
    Author: $ Jeannie Innajug
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Bobo Yaga
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:20:49

    Hey.....................Annie....................

    If I remember right, Baba Yaga was a Russian witch.  I think it means 'old
    woman' or 'grandmother' in Russian.

    See Y'aa..............
    Jeannie

    Message: 3151
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Ultimate insult
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 12:02:06

    The ultimate insult for a girl when I was in high school was "Hose bag."

    Message: 3152
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Todd./Hose bag
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:26:29

    That's terrible! But we were talking about the male equivilent insults. Ok,
    what would be the equivilent of 'Hose Bag' be? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3153
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Todd/Hose Bag
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:31:08

    That brings up a point ... why is it when a woman sleeps around, she's a
    hose bag, whore, chippie, cheap, pounding board, slut, etc. etc.? When a man
    makes as many conquests as he can, he's Macho, a Stud etc. There just isn't
    any derogatory insults. The worst I ever heard in discribing such a man is
    "he'd stick it in a knot hole if it had hair around it!" See? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3154
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:32:52

            If Cliff slept around ...... I would call him "Dead".

            Now, if I slept around ...... I would call myself "Busy".

    Message: 3155
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:15:40

    I'd call you "Lucky."

    (haw haw haw haw haw)

    Message: 3156
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Male Hose Bag
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:16:15

    Oh, that's easy.  The male version was called a "Hoser."

    Message: 3157
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Sandy/#3154
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:27:47

    VERY good Dandy Sandy. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3158
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Toad/on Sandy
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:29:01

    That was a insult! Sandy ought to shoot you with one of her big guns!
    Lucky indeed! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3159
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Todd/Hoser
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:29:52

    Now that's hardly an insult. Has the ring of 'a stud' about it.

    Message: 3160
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:08:04

    I thought "stud" had something to do with cattle.  I'd hate to be called a
    stud.

    Message: 3161
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Todd/stud
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:25:00

            You do look a bit like a bull.

    Message: 3162
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Jokes & Ha Ha's
    Subject: Lawyers!
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 23:25:52

    The devil speaking to an attorney: "I'll give you the Playboy mansion
    complete with the bunnies, a beach house, a Lear jet, a 100 foot yacht in
    Monte Carlo, a fleet of Rolls and a $25 million/year law practice.  In
    return all I want is your soul, your mother's soul, your wife's soul and the
    souls of your three children."   The attorney replied: "What's the catch?"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "A man without money needs no more fear a crowd of lawyers than a crowd of
    pickpockets."    - William Wyhcerley in 1674
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "God works wonders now and then; Behold! An honest lawyer!"
                     - Benjamin Franklin in 1733
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "When God wanted to chastise mankind, He created lawyers."
                     - Old Russian proverb
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Woe be unto you lawyers! for ye took away the key of knowledge: ye entered
    not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."
                     - Jesus

    SYSOP Cliff

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1654
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:04:00

    That's just great - while the rest of us pay sky-rocketed insurance rates.

    Gee, thanks Hawley.

    Message: 1655
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Growl...
    Subject: Toddddddd
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:34:40

            Quit  yer  griping  and  go  out  there  and  steal  your  car!
            Can't  make  no  money  sittin'  'round  and  griping .....

    Message: 1656
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: TV/Movies
    Subject: Harry's War
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 21:06:12

            Found a copy of this movie at 'Blockbuster Video' on Greenway and
    35th Ave.   It is about this guy that declares war on the I.R.S.
    Just a note to let you know, we are viewing this movie tonight!
    Does anyone else wish to see it... Stop over, we have till midnight monday
    to return the sucker.

    Bring your own PoP!  We only serve water with free movies.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 1657
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ok
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:18:06

    I'll be over in about a half hour.  It will be almost 1 am by then - hope
    you guys are up.
    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 59111
    Author: Michelle Reynolds
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Well..
    Date: 06/07/89  Time: 22:47:13

    I am doing great I guess. I just
    graduated from Maryvale High
    School and am now ready to
    experience the real world. Look
    out!

    Message: 59112
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 06/07/89  Time: 23:59:29

    Good job!  Now you is just like us edjukated folk.

    Message: 59113
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Todd/GT
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 06:55:48

    25 people showed up for the GT you announced.  That's pretty good
    considering only a five minute warning.

    Message: 59114
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James H./last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 07:54:25

    There is twenty five active members on this board! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59115
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:23:01

    The meaning of your message was rather confused.  Were you trying to say,
    "There are *only* 25 active members on Apollo"?  Or perhaps, "There aren't
    even 25 active members of Apollo"?

    Message: 59116
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 15:01:08

      Since it was stated as an exclamation rather than a question, I suspect it
    was the result of some kind of private sex survey Ann has taken to separate
    the 'active members' from the 'flaccid members' or something of the sort.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 59117
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: China
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 20:33:16

    Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, and now China.
    Those of you who are drooling over what a great guy Gorbachev is should
    remember that the door can be slammed shut very easily.

    Message: 59118
    Author: David Fischer
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: New BBS
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 23:35:23

    Call The black Demesnes BBS
    300/1200/2400
    (602)/993-7577
    24 hr running on a mac
    Support most Computers

    Message: 59119
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: BURKHART
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 00:39:24

         Methinks you're the only one drooling here.

    Message: 59120
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James H./clearing up
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 06:49:09

    I meant to say - "we don't have 25 active members!" Right now, we lucky to
    have 6 or 7. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59121
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/survey
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 06:49:58

    I'm always taking private sex surveys. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59123
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/last
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 15:20:56

    Ann, So the chinese people are better off living under a dictatorship that
    restricts what they can think, eat, or do, than to have to pay taxes and be
    free to travel, go to XXXX in their own way, and leave the country if they
    want to?

    Sounds like pointy headed liberal thinking to me.  I still can't understand
    how a comfortable parlor pink can say she's really a Libertarian.  You just
    hate conservative governments, lady, and don't know how to say it!

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 59124
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: homos
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:14:33

    Re:  "I would bet that 1 out of
    every 9 is gay and that 2 of every nine has had some type of homosexual
    experience in their lifetime."

    Do you really think it's that bad?  Jt said, "two members of Congress (out
    of 535) are admitted homosexuals".  I guess the rest are still in the
    closet.

    Message: 59125
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Todd
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:16:15

    Re:  "Now you is just like us edjukated folk."

    That is spelled "edjamacated"!  Didn't you ever watch the Pop Eye cartoons?

    Message: 59126
    Author: Bob Williams    NOTE:  This was me  ***

    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob Thornburg
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 20:25:12

            Hey, you sound cute.  Want to get together for a drink some evening?
    Your place or mine, sweetie?  I'm waiting.  Say something.

    Message: 59127
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Graduation
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 22:12:17

      Let's all chip in and buy Michelle a "I'M ARE A HI SCOOLE GRADJUIT"
    button!
      (By the way -- congratulations, Michelle!)

          =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

    Message: 59128
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gary/China
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:18:27

    First of all: "I HATE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS!" There, I've said it! I
    believe it! I feel it! I hope that's clear. I NEVER tried to hide that fact
    - NEVER! You sound like I accidently let it out or something.
    Re: The Libertarians: I do not in the least think they would be a
    'conservative government'! My opinion of a C.G. is one that stiffles the
    individual's rights. The Lib. party would give the individual's freedoms
    back to him or let him be more free from gov. rule! (Less gov. control) How
    on earth could that be compared to a conservative government? If I was still
    interested in our two parties, which I am not, I would be a democrat -
    always was! However, I do not like them either.
    Re: China: I truly don't think you can read! NEVER once did I imply they
    were better off under a dictatorship! I just don't happen to think that we
    are so perfect ourselves to offer them what we have - I.E. Crooked
    politicians and outragous taxes! (BTW the Lib. party would do away with
    these two!) When I said China rose against it's gov. - I was refering to a
    historical fact! Put your glasses on Gary before you comment. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59129
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:18:11

            You confuse the hell out of me... When you say you want LESS
    government and then mention the Democratic party practically in the same
    sentence.... you make no sense!  The Democratic party belives in full
    government controll practically every conceivable issue.

            As to the post Gary was commenting on, I got the same impression he
    got.  I think if anyone should re-read that post you wrote, it should be
    YOU!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    P.S.  I think I will move Ann's post in question to follow this post, so she
    can re-read it herself.

    Message: 59130
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: David/China
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:22:38

    China has been rising against it's government periodocally for centuries
    regardless who's in power at the time. I can't help but wonder what they'd
    do IF they became democratic? You know - pay high taxes - crooked
    politicians - etc. -=*) ANN (*=-

    SYSOP Here....  I moved this post so Ann could re-read what she implied when
    she said "If they became democratic...."

    Message: 59131
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann?
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:43:30

    When you say, "I.E. Crooked politicians and outragous taxes! (BTW the Lib.
    party would do away with these two!)",  Are you implying that a person
    running under the Libertarian banner is immune to human frailties and there
    would be no more Crooked politicians?  I think it is this unbelievable
    mindset that has me against the Libertarian party.  The fact they suggest
    they can do no wrong and you imply they are NOT a Democratic form of
    government worries me, as in your quote, "I can't help but wonder what
    they'd do IF they became democratic? You know - pay high taxes - crooked
    politicians - etc. -=*) ANN (*=-" If you don't think the Libertarians are a
    democratic form of government, can you spell out just what form of
    government they are... As in Communistic or Socialist or Dictatorship or
    Tyranny?  Just what type of Government will the Libertarians create?

          *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59132
    Author: Rich Be
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: For Sale
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 15:36:58

    Check out message 59092.  If you know anybody, please let them know.
            Thanks ya'll ! ! !

    Message: 59133
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: RALLY (ACRC)
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 16:06:14

    Arizona Constitutional Rights Committee (ACRC)
    Are your guns worth 2 hours of your time?  Well then I expect to see you at
    the Gun Rights RALLY June 17, 1989 at the west parking lots of the State
    Capital (18th Avenue and West Jefferson St.) at 8:00am to 10:00am.  Speeches
    at 9:00am.  Bring the whole family, balloons for the kids....
    However, NO Firearms and NO grubby or camoflage clothing.

    We need to act now to protect & keep our gun rights.  We do not want to lose
    the rights so many died for.  Remember, Gun control works, just ask anyone
    from BEIJING!

    Tell a friend...pass this post to other boards.... or for more information,
    call (602) 954-8713

    SYSOP Cliff & Sandy

    Message: 59134
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Joke
    Subject: ASSault rifle?
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:53:50

    One of King George's redcoats was overheard talking to a musket totin'
    colonist: "What's a peaceful farmer like you need with an assault rifle?"
    "GUESS?," replied the minuteman, pointing the weapon at the English soldier.

    Moral: Beware when your gov't wants your assault rifles, for ANY reason!

    Message: 59135
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Republicans are okay
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:55:39

    1989 Oklahoma REPUBLICAN Party Rules Committee Report:  (a few excerpts)

    We... oppose Secular Humanism in any form in public schools...

    We oppose any legislation that would require the registration, licensing or
    confiscation of firearms and ammunition.

    The logical system of taxation to meet (our nation's) requirements is based
    on consumption, such as a national sales tax, rather than (an) income tax.

    Resolve that the 16th Amendments to the constitution (income tax) be
    repealed.

    We oppose mandatory participation in the social security system.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The above are encouraging excerpts from that Republican document. There are
    many more too numerous to post at this time.  Occasionally, there is
    evidence that people are waking up and beginning to question government.  I
    have yet to see any such forward thinking from Ann's Democratic party.  I do
    note that a lot of these are in some form similar to Libertarian ideals, but
    without radical overtones.  (I'm going to get it from Dean on that last
    statement)  ha ha ha
    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59136
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Income / Comsumption
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:58:49

     Replace the Income tax with a federal sales tax?  Good or bad?  What is
    your idea on this...  Why will it work or not work....  POST your thoughts
    and maybe spread the word.

         "I believe each individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases
    with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes
    with another man's rights."
                                   - Abraham Lincoln

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59137
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last couple
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 21:43:45

    How would you like a 50% tax on food and gasoline?  That would be the
    alternative.

    Message: 59138
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: last/James...
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 23:15:53

            50%....  I do not think you are giving it any thought at all.
    Look at the rich that pay no taxes....  however, if they went out and bought
    a RR or whatever...they would pay federal taxes.  The amount I had in mind
    might be a flat 5% for most items and 10% for luxury items.  Figure this on
    a national level collected daily, and that is a LOT of loot!  But the fair
    part is you would only pay on what you spent with a lot less paper work and
    the fear would be gone of the IRS, so stress would be down.  If you lived
    high on the hog, you would pay more and collection would be on the spot.
    Try to think about it fairly.... shooting every suggestion down will never
    change a worsening situation with the present system.

            THINK People.....  You can change the system if we all try together.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59139
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Taxes
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 01:58:04

      It really doesn't matter what form the taxes take.  You could repeal
    personal income tax without implementing a sales tax, but you would have to
    increase some other tax (like corporate income tax) to make up for the lost
    revenue.
      Face reality:  the government spends money like it's going out of style,
    and looks upon the American public as an infinite money supply.  They will
    implement *whatever* taxes they want at *whatever* rates they need to in
    order to collect the money that they've spent.
      The *only* way out of this is to get the government to *spend* less.  No
    more $600 hammers and the like.  Different rules on how government projects
    will be executed that don't have built-in money sinks.
      If government spending is reduced, then the taxes we have now will handle
    the money requirements just fine, with the rates reduced.
      All the fancy schemes to determine exactly which of my pockets you'll pick
    don't help me at all.

              =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

    Message: 59140
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 02:29:46

    There are 4-10% taxes on most consumer goods already.  You still have to get
    a great deal of money from somewhere...  Gasoline is taxed 33%.  I think the
    Value Added Tax in Europe is 15% for most items, and there are STILL income
    taxes there.

    Message: 59141
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: I'm back!
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 06:38:14

    I'm sure you're all thrilled with that news. Anyway, in spite of a few
    personal disasters, we had a great time, and actually breathed some air we
    couldn't see! A couple of terrific grandchildren on the Washington coast,
    and some fantastic "real" people in Idaho. Might even consider moving there,
    since I believe that we couls cut our living expenses almost in half, which
    would be a plus on a limited income.
     Speaking of taxes, Cliff, what makes you think that we, the people, could
    convince the moneymongers in Washington, D.C. to give up all the loot they
    play with that comes to them from IRS? You might talk them into adding a
    fed. sales tax, but I have yet to see a "temporary" tax repealed, and that
    goes for the income tax as well. It would be a great idea, but, as Steve
    said, it wold be better to cut the wasteful spending first, then talk about
    cutting taxes. Oh well, dream on.

    Message: 59142
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: fair tax?
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 07:54:13

            I don't think you guys see the point.  A Consumption tax would
    collect more taxes then they get now in a much fairer way as people (such as
    the very rich) would have to pay when they spend.  As it is now... thousands
    and thousands of people that now do not pay ANY taxes at this time, would be
    paying taxes.  Under this system only the middle income people PAY the bulk
    and that seems highly unfair.  Obviously if the consumption tax were put
    into opperation, the Federal witholding tax would be repealed compleatly.

            I see a problem...  it is you people who are satisfied paying taxes
    as is now done.  You must like the present tax structure......  What fence
    sitters!

            I do agree, that wastfull spending needs to be cut as well, but that
    still won't give fair taxation, not when only the middle class has to pay.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59143
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Thinkers
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 07:55:36

            Apollo needs some forward thinkers!  I am afraid too many on Apollo
    now are brain dead.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59144
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Happen here?
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:11:30

    Could this happen here?

            Between 1949 and 1965,  26.3 million defenseless people in Red China
    were killed by Marxist leaders.  They were killed with an assortment of
    weapons, including the now famous Soviet-designed AK-47 assault rifle.
            Those people were defenseless because their leaders had the
    foresight to ban civilian ownership of all guns before the bloodbath.

            The above data was published months ago.... before the BEIJING
    event.

            I remember when the Mini-14 by Ruger was called a 'Ranch Rifle'.
    Now it is called an 'Assault Rifle' and has been put on the banned list.
    Imagine that, a Coyote rifle.....  Now the rancher will have to use a rim
    fire 22 with a max capacity of 4 rounds.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59145
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Oudin
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:23:10

    In Beijing, people are risking their lives for the ideals on which this
    country is based.  When I hear about something like the Tiananmen Square
    massacre, it reminds me how lucky I am to live here and how proud I am to be
    an American.  It's too bad some people don't know how good they have it.

    Message: 59146
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Consumption tax
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:29:18

    A national sales tax would be highly regressive, unless it were limited to
    luxury items.  Rich people do not spend as high a proportion of their income
    as poor and middle-class people do.

    Message: 59147
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: China
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:32:24

    Yesterday, I went and joined the demonstration outside the Chinese Embassy.
    The problem is, when you protest the Chinese, you feel like protesting again
    an hour later.

    Message: 59148
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/China
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:51:50

    In a following post I said I did not like what the Democratic party had
    become either. Never liked the Republicans! Clear? Right? I thought our
    country 'in general' could be called a democratic one - without everyone
    being a Democrat!?
    The statement about China was just that - a statement. Nothing else. China
    is in a mess but I'd hate to see them become like we are totally with the
    crooked politicians and high taxes! Why should I wish that on them?
    Tell you what -- change my statement to say "I can't help but wonder what
    they'd do IF they became like us? Higher taxes etc." That's what I meant.
    Sorry the word democratic was so confusing to you. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59149
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/answer
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:15:08

    To answer our little chat man to man (woman!) - do you think that if 3,000
    of us Americans demonstrated like those students did, that OUR government
    wouldn't shoot a few of us? Think about that. -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. NO! The Libertarians are NOT saints. But we will be voting them in
    office just like we do our two parties now. If they don't work out or are
    crooks - we get rid of them. What's the matter with giving them a chance? I
    say we have nothing to lose! Remember, they believe in the right to bear
    arms! Oh lord, I should have used the word 'bear'!

    Message: 59150
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:17:08

    There is no such thing as 'Ann's Democratic party! Politicans in general are
    not the friend of the American people. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59151
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Lincoln
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:18:41

    That quote could come from a Libertarian. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59152
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:21:42

    Welcome back. Glad you had a good time.
    I have a sister-in-law that lives in Boise - it is less expensive to live
    there but so are the wages! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59153
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/#59138
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:24:26

    Your quote" "THINK people .... You can change the system if we all try
    together." Fine - then vote Libertarian! They are for a minimum tax.
                                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 59154
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: You I.R.S. fans!
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:36:58

    IRS: Mugging accomplice?
         Florida securities regulators spent nearly two years scraping together
    $1.5 million for defrauded investors of Wynwood Mercantile Corp., which
    operated a scam that cost its victims $30 million.  Before the money could
    be distributed to its rightful owners, the I.R.S. swooped in saying that it
    intended to lay claim to the money to satisfy Wynwood's income tax debt.
    (Think of it as if a mugger is apprehended by the police and before the
    money can be returned to its rightful owner the I.R.S. confiscates a part of
    the bandit's money to pay his tax debt on the stolen money)
                             - Wall Street Journal, March 2, 1989

         I may post more of these for you I.R.S. fans who think it is a fair
    system of tax payment.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59155
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT/#59146/taxes
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:53:29

            Hey JT, I agree with you for the most part.  Most lower income
    people spend ALL their income where the RICH only spend a percentage.

            I do not think basic FOOD should have any tax on it.  Other
    essentials should only have a 5% or 10% federal tax.  High ticket luxury
    items such as cars costing over $20,000.00 should maybe have a 20% federal
    sales tax....as they obviously have excess money to burn.

            I just can't see taxing people on money not being spent, such as
    saving accounts and interest collected.  Let's face it, inflation eats it up
    fast enough.

            I still stand on the idea, people should pay for what they consume,
    not for what they earn.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59156
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/#59149
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:00:20

    Ann: "P.S. NO! The Libertarians are NOT saints. But we will be voting them
    in  office just like we do our two parties now. If they don't work out or
    are  crooks - we get rid of them. What's the matter with giving them a
    chance? I  say we have nothing to lose!"

            But Ann, don't we do that now already?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59157
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: VHS recorder
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:21:07

            My brother Bob is looking for a used VHS recorder for his personal
    use.  He can't pay much money for it, so it needs to be in the $50.00 range.
    If anyone can help him out, his number is 581-1750 or you can leave me mail
    on this system and I will pass it to him.

            Note:  He has had a bad year....  if you know anyone with a recorder
    for sale, pass this post to them.  Thanks in advance!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59158
    Author: Tanisha Valese
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Dead Poet's Society
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 11:04:29

    Wow!  A very intense movie.  I would recommend it but I can't say it's
    great:  it was too sad for me to call it great.  But it is very well done as
    far as acting and photograghy.  Oscar written all over it.  It would be nice
    to have Robin Williams win but he wasn't on screen enough for me to think he
    is the main actor, more like best supporting.  It is more about "seize the
    day" than poetry but if you have read the classics, you will be surprized at
    their interpretations.
    Zee ya,
    T. Valese

    Message: 59159
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: The Reporters
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:12:32

    Did anyone catch The Reporters last night?  One part discussed the prison
    problem in Georgia (I think).  They have been using this "Shock" short-term
    prison sentence for first time offenders.  It amounts to sending first
    timers to 90 days of intensive boot camp discipline.  A high number (much
    higher than regular prisons) of those who go to this boot camp do not have
    problems again.

    (My, what a novel idea - PUNISH the prisoner and he'll give up his ways of
    crime.)

    Message: 59160
    Author: $ Todd Reese
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/taxes
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:14:59

    What's the name of that Arizona group supported by Udall that refuses to pay
    taxes.  Let's join!

    Message: 59161
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob Williams
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:50:07

    RE:  "Say something"

    Hmmmmm.  SOMETHIMG!

    Message: 59162
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Sales Tax
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:08:03

    Re:  "Replace the Income tax with a federal sales tax?"

    I like the idea.  First of all it would eliminate about 50 hours of tax
    preparation paperwork every year.  Second, it would treat all spenders
    equally.  (We are all spenders aren't we?  Some more than others.)

    One thing that is wrong with the Federal tax system is the Federal
    government uses the federal taxes to blackmail the state governments into
    doing what the federal government wants instead of letting the state
    government do as it sees best.  The 55 speed limit is a good example of
    this.  If the state doesn't enforce the federal government's 55 speed limit,
    the federal government withholds needed tax dollars from the offending
    state.

    Personally I think the federal is sloppy fat on our tax dollars.  It needs
    to go on a very tight diet.  The problem is the elected officials promise
    the people everything, but once they get into office they do as they please
    and not what they promised to the people.  Dennis D. is a good example of
    this.  Between the two party system I think the Republicans are the less of
    the two evils by a long shot.  I wish there was a third option, but I don't
    see it in the Libertarian party.

    Message: 59163
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James H.
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:10:16

    Re:  "How would you like a 50% tax on food and gasoline?"

    As I see it, that's just about what I'm paying now.  If the tax on gas was
    clearly 50%, I think we would see an improvement in our driving habits.

    Message: 59164
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Sysop
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:12:41

    Re:  "Look at the rich that pay no taxes...."

    Look at the poor who pay no taxes....  That leaves you and me in the middle
    paying all the taxes.  A Federal sales tax would be the great equalizer;
    everybody would pay.

    Message: 59165
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sysop
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:21:33

    Re:  "I do not think basic FOOD should have any tax on it."

    Who's brain dead?  Everything should be taxed equally.  For what possible
    reason should one item be taxed more than another.  The idea that those with
    the most money should be taxed more than those with less is a strange idea
    of what's fair.  If tax is a percentage, those with more will automatically
    pay more.

    Message: 59166
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Economics
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:30:28

            I still haven't grasped the understanding of economics.  Therefore
    there is not much I can add to this discussion at the present time.
            I would say, though, that less government, like the Libertarians
    want, would, in fact, cut quite a lot of expenses.  (Quite a lot.)
            It seems to me that the current government has Rolls Royce tastes
    with a VW pocketbook and an open charge account.  The American people pays
    and pays and the deficit just becomes worse each fiscal year.  Both the
    Repuplicans and Democrats keep boosting our debt.  If I were from another
    planet I would want to go home now.  But since I am stuck here for the
    durantion I reckon I will get involved in helping to promote the Libertarian
    Party.
                             Rod

    Message: 59167
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Letter
    Date: 06/11/89  Date: 16:34:19

           I received a letter yesterday from an old friend of 20 some years
    who I had met while living in New Orleans.  The letter surprised me and here
    is one of its paragraphs for your reading enjoyment and education.  He is in
    a federal prison in Texarkansas.
    "Big Brother is truly watching.  I didn't realize to what extent the
    government was involved in the lives of the citizenry until I got here and
    heard some of the tales of woe.  We, as a society and individually, are
    constantly being watched by a government that has become a government of the
    government, for the government and by the government.  In looking at some of
    the cases here (note: He works in the law library filing briefs and writs)
    it is obvious that the law has become a joke to be used against the people.
    This place is full of political prisioners, confined for long periods of
    time for little or nothing other than non-conformity.  The people do not
    know what is happening in this country because the government will not allow
    them to know until it is too late for them to do anything about it.  But,
    they (government) are watching and prosecuting dissidents at an alarming
    rate.  The prisons are overflowing at every level yet they continue to send
    more people in.  The system is bursting at its seams with no relief in
    sight."

    Message: 59168
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:46:55

    Sounds like sour grapes to me.  I don't suppose he has any specific
    examples.

    Message: 59169
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Oudin
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:56:57

    Yesterday I was outside the Chinese Embassy, where between 1,000 and 2,000
    people were demonstrating.  The police were there to guard the Embassy, but
    I do not recall anybody getting shot, and I didn't see any tanks.  There
    were also, as far as I know, no shootings at the abortion demonstration in
    Washington in April, which drew some 300,000 demonstrators.

    I guess these facts don't matter to you, though.  You are determined to hate
    this country, and will equate it with the regime of the brutal communist
    devils in Beijing simply because you want to believe that the United States
    is a rotten place.  You make me sick.  When I see the brave Chinese students
    fighting for democracy, it makes me proud to be an American.  Proud because
    we have democracy, and proud because the Chinese feel it is worth risking
    their lives for the ideals on which this country is based.  On the other
    hand, when I read your messages, I am ashamed that you are an American.

    Message: 59170
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:57:54

    The poor spend a higher proportion of their income on necessities like food
    than do the rich.  Thus, a sales tax on food would hit the poor harder than
    anyone else.

    Message: 59171
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 17:10:43

    There may be an argument to be made for replacing the ifederal income tax
    with a national sales tax.  However, "making the rich pay their fair share"
    is not it.  A flat sales tax on all items is just about the most regressive
    tax you can have, other than a head tax (i.e., a flat tax per person).  The
    regressiveness of a sales tax, as I have pointed out, can be ameliorated
    somewhat by exempting essentials such as food or clothing, or by imposing a
    higher tax on luxury items.  However, you will still wind up with a
    regressive tax.  A luxury tax is likely to affect most severely not the
    rich, but the upper-middle class, whom I would guess spend a higher
    percentage of income on luxury items than any other group.

    The other factor that must be taken into account in formulating tax policy
    is the economic incentives and disincentives created by a particular tax.
    For example, a consumption tax would tend to discourage consumption.  One
    could argue that this would not be a desirable outcome.  Consumption, after
    all, creates jobs producing goods.

    Message: 59172
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T. on taxes
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 17:40:35

            I can handle tax on food, however, that being a necessity of life, I
    do not think BASIC food should be taxed.  This is better than having food
    stamps or some other silly program.  I also do not think you should be taxed
    on the first 50 thousand for your first home, as again, this is a basic
    need.  However, the TAX would apply to everything above that and on your
    next home and so on.   However, this is just ideas I am tossing out there
    for debate.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 59173
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT on Consumption
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 19:34:21

            If there was NO withholding taken from a persons wages, it would
    seem like he had more money to spend.  I think this in some ways would
    increase spending in some groups.  I really doubt that a reasonable Federal
    sales tax of say 10% would cause a person not to buy that TV he wanted or
    not to get that new little car, as this would be the only taxes he would be
    paying along with the maybe 5% state sales tax already in effect.  Now I do
    recall way back when I was in Rhode Island and there was NO state sales tax
    and the people that were against sales tax coming into affect were painting
    pictures of doom over the local economy if such a tax were inplace.  Well,
    the doom never came and it did not deter me from buying anything.  All this
    of course was without even any other tax being rolled back or removed.
    Now the Federal sales tax I am talking about is only to be accepted if the
    personal income tax is abolished completely.

            When I was refering to RICH people paying their fair share... I
    should have said the poor also would have to pay and the so called
    millions of middle class that won't even file.  In short, there would be no
    excape.  And for this reason, I believe 10% would handle it nicely or the
    government would have to learn how to live on a budget!
    With everyone paying this way, a middle class income would go further than
    it does now....  I predict the economy would get stronger.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
    P.S.  Can you see any possable logic in that James? (Or a maybe?)

    Message: 59174
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Forward Thinkers
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 19:53:40

    I guess it all depends upon which direction you are pointing, to decide upon
    who is going forward and who is going backwards.

    Message: 59175
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 20:41:50

    Thank you so much for that pearl of wisdom.

    Message: 59176
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 20:53:59

    If, for example, people are taxed on consumption but not on income from
    savings and investment, then people will spend less and save and invest
    more.  The difference may only be at the margin (depending on the size of
    the tax involved, the degree of necessity of the consumption, and so forth),
    but it will definitely be there.  Of course, it may be a worthy goal to
    encourage savings and investment at the expense of consumption, but we
    should be clear as to what economic consequences a given tax is likely to
    have.

    My main objection to a national sales tax, as I said, is that it is a highly
    regressive tax.  If every sale is taxed, the poor will be hit far harder
    than anyone else.  If necessities such as food, clothing, and shelter are
    exempt, then it will hit the middle class hardest.  I don't believe in
    "soaking the rich," but I do think they should pay a proportional share of
    their income in taxes.  About the best tax system I can think of would be a
    flat-rate income tax, with a higher personal exemption indexed to inflation
    (to help families with modest means) and a discounted rate -- or no tax at
    all -- for capital gains (to encourage investment).

    Message: 59177
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last/savings
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:18:36

            If people were to save more as you suggest, then there would be more
    money to lend and the cost of that money would be less.  With lower interest
    rates, that would spur housing and the American dream to new hights.
            I fail to see how a federal sales tax over a withholding will hurt
    the poorer workers, as they will be bringing home almost all of the fruits
    of their labor.
            As to the flat rate tax... I suppose that would be better than what
    is in effect now, but we still have one problem, people that don't report
    their income now, won't do so under that system either.  The paper work will
    still be there, and I know people will lie as to what they made.
            My argument stands on the fact...if you spend, you will pay TAXes!
    And since everyone spends, everyone will pay.
            One of my goals would be to revamp the I.R.S. system.  I am not
    against paying taxes, but if they were fair and more evenly divided among
    the citizens of this nation, they would be considerably less of a burden to
    the ones that now pay.
            But please explain the FLAT rate system a little more, as I may not
    be seeing the point you are trying to prove.

    SYSOP Cliff

    Message: 59178
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Is the IRS for you?
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:58:25

    I.R.S.----  Is this fair, you be the judge!

    Dennis Levine, an admitted inside trader asked a court to allow part of his
    federal income taxes to be paid with his ill-gotten profits.  A federal
    judge rejected his effort to pay taxes with those funds, saying the profits
    belonged in a constructive trust for victims of the scheme.  An APPEAL of
    that decision by the I.R.S. and others is pending in the Second U.S. Circuit
    Court of Appeals in New York.
                         - Wall Street Journal & the Freeman Letter (April 89)

    SYSOP Cliff

    Message: 59179
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: IRS computer system
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:59:23

    I.R.S. Hurting?
         According to David Pryor (D-Ark), chairman of the subcommittee that
    oversees the I.R.S., the agency's computer system is badly out of date and
    headed for a crash in the early 1990's.  He says he doubts they can come up
    with the funding necessary to install a new system.  Citing a recent GAO
    study, Pryor said the I.R.S. was unable to tell the GAO how much it had
    spent on a $120 million computer project it began several years ago and then
    cancelled.
                         -Spotlight, March 89

    Sysop Cliff

    Message: 59180
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: When Life begins....
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 23:06:10

    When LIFE begins
         The government, it seems, requiers cattle used for breeding stock to be
    capitalized.  This means all costs associated with a cow must be recorded.
    Fine.  But when, asked the dairymen, do we begin accumulating these costs?
    Replied the government: A calf is a calf at the moment of CONCEPTION.  All
    costs and profits relating to cattle must be computed from that date.
         (It all depends, apparently upon who-or what-one is.)
                                 -the Freeman Letter, May 89

    SYSOP Cliff

    (I hope you guys are enjoying these since Apro Poet is not here. Ha ha ha)

    Message: 59181
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT/specific gripes
    Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:30:30

            It was the first time I heard from him in years.  I guess he just
    wants someone to write him (as he indicated in the remainder of the letter).
    I will reply to him and ask specifics.  You can believe that.  As he works
    in the Law Library and files documents he should be able to come up with
    some.  This should be interesting.  I will keep you informed.
            I am just wondering though just what he can or cannot say in a
    censored letter.  I have no idea of such matters at this time.  He gets out
    in several years or so, depending.   -Rod

    Message: 59182
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taxes
    Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:39:07

            Again I say that when government is cut down in scale, the savings
    will be such that people will not have to come up with all that much.  Or if
    they do then I'm sure that dental, medical and insurance will be able to be
    included in what people are being charged today.  -Rod

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Rod, God & Bob Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 393
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Rod's thoughts
    Subject: Heat
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:24:40

    Getting rather hot isn't it.  In Sundays newspaper it was forcasted that
    will very likely have a week or two at 120 degrees this summer.  If you
    convert it to Celsius it would sound much better...

    Message: 394
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod & Heat
    Date: 06/08/89  Time: 22:19:25

            Rod better get use to it, it will be a lot hotter where he is
    headed.... or just maybe, he is there now!  One might think Phoenix is hell
    for a locksmith.

            The dork deserves it!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 395
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Shit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 01:13:35

    My, were're a happy camper, aren't we?

    Message: 396
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/insults
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:10:20

    I'd say that small vacation sharpened your insult wit! -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. But where is Rod? He needs to defend himself.

    Re: Hell! If you don't believe in such a thing, it does not exist! If
    someone can prove it does, then I'll believe! Of course, I believe in
    Heaven!

    Re: Hell again. Why would anyone want to believe in someplace like that and
    spend their entire life trying to avoid it when the whole aspect of it is
    'Unknowable?'

    Message: 397
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Shit-Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 06/09/89  Time: 13:01:07

    Tomorrow is also unknowable so who wants it?
                       GOD RALPH

    Message: 398
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Ralphy/last
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:38:47

    I, for one, want tomorrow! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 399
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Last/Ann/tomorrow!
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:57:20

            Well Ann, you say you want tomorrow!  And tomorrow is when I had
    planned for you, a trip to the Zone. So, I guess, you want the Zone as well!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 400
    Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
    Category: Shit-Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:48:03

            Nah, Cliff, don't put Ann in the Zone for wanting to experience
    tomorrow .......
            Put her in the Zone only if she wastes her tomorrow that she wanted.

    Message: 401
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliff/the zone
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:32:34

    How in the fugg did the Zone enter into this conversation? Geeze!
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 402
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Waste
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:34:48

    I do not waste a day - always on the computer! Time is shortening towards my
    new computer! About 15 more days till C-Day! The 'C' can stand for computer
    or 'cash' - doesn't matter! One buys the other. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 403
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Shit-Chat
    Subject: Last on Waste
    Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:06:07

            I just saw your posts for the day... What a waste!
                            INTO the Zone with you!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 404
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Hell/heat/locksmith
    Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:46:58

            Yeah, I'm going to quit this locksmith shit.  I'm starting a new job
    tomorrow.  I'll be laying blacktop for the City.  Or I could do hot-tar
    roofs or work in a kitchen.  It's fun being an economic slave.  Or maybe I
    will move up north and freeze my balls off for seven months of the year.  Or
    maybe I'll steal my van, collect on the insurance and become a
    pig-capitalist landlord.  Or I could become a hooker and sell my carpets at
    park and swaps nationwide, going where the weather is nice.

            Cliff, if I had a face like yours, I'd rub shit on it in order to
    look half-way decent.   -Rod

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