### Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 14, 1990

    Mail from Zak Woodruff
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:01:07

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

          Your joke isn't that funny.  People with teeth can give just as good
    blowjobs as anybody.  As long as they are careful.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Yeah, but I forgot to mention, He greases up his mouth.  Is Zak your real
     2:name?
     3:
     4:

    Mail from Mike Middleton
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:15:36

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Thanks, Larry. I was hoping to meet some new friends here! I'll keep on
    trying to make sense and see what happens...

    Mike
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:The first message that you posted impressed me.  So has your others.  There
     2:are a lot of fundamentialists on this board.  Their minds are welded shut by
     3:earlier teachings.
     4:
     5:There are Get Togethers on occasion.  There are a lot of good people.  In
     6:fact my life revolves around all the BBS people.  See you.
     7:end

    Press  to abort

    Message: 63311
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ANN
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:02:19

    Here is a quote from a column by the writer, William S. Burroughs:

    "Urine tests!  Our pioneer ancestors would p___ in their graves at the
    thought of urine tests to decide whether a man is competent to do his job.
    The measure of competence is performance.  When told that General Grant was
    a heavy drinker, Lincoln said: 'Find out what brand of whiskey he drinks,
    and distribute it to my other generals.'

    "Doctor William Halsted has been called the 'Father of American Surgery.' A
    brilliant and innovative practitioner, he introduced antiseptic procedures
    at a time when, far from donning rubber gloves, surgeons did not even wash
    their hands, and the death rate from post-operative infection ran as high
    as 80 percent.  Doctor Halsted was a life long morphine addict.  But he
    could still hack it and hack it good, and he lost no patients because of
    his personal habit.  In those 'good old days,' a man's personal habits were
    personal and private.  Now even a citizen's blood and urine are subject to
    arbitrary seizure and search."

    "The world's greatest detective could not have survived a urine test.
    'Which is it this time, Holmes, cocaine or morphine?'

    Both, Watson --- a speed ball."

    Message: 63312
    Author: Kevin Roy
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: New!
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:20:39

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    Message: 63313
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Larry Michaels
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:41:53

    I would agree that environment plays a role (i.e. influences us), and that
    children (like adults) can be damaged by their interactions with others.
    I have never implied that drugs turn people into monsters through some Jekyl
    and Hyde process.  In fact, I hold people responsible for their actions
    under the influence of drugs.  Perhaps you made an error in directing this
    particular rebuttal to me, since I have never made such assertions.

    None of this shows why environment should be blamed for the evil acts of an
    individual.  The point I made before, which still stands, is that many
    people suffer trauma in their youth; many to a far greater degree than
    Hitler or Manson may have; yet very few become heineous criminals.  This
    should indicate to you that something other than environment is at work: I
    suggest that the overlooked factor is free will, pure and simple.  If the
    experiences of your youth are traumatic, you have a number of options.  It
    is not very logical to assume that one would act out on society the very
    behaviors which caused you to suffer such trauma: one would think that a
    greater, not a lesser, sensitivity to the feelings of others could be
    instilled by experiences (good or bad).
    Furthermore, many of the sadistic, psychopathic individuals of the type we
    are discussing had relatively ordinary lives, and even those abused suffer
    rather less than many of their victims.

    Message: 63315
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James H.
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 02:10:07

    Heh heh...not very appetizing, I agree.  I would also probably agree with
    Paul that many processed foods are less than choice in their undisguised
    state.  Of course, we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that we live
    in a world which, by the somewhat artificial aesthetic and hygenic standards
    we have adopted, fails miserably.  For example, I still eat chocolate even
    though I know that the cocoa pod is a favorite nest for cockroaches, who
    besides defacating in and among them, also lay their eggs there.
    I read this once in the food section of the Republic, so I cannot vouch for
    its validity, nor do I remember details other than the rather nauseating
    affinity I just described.
    This book (The Secret House) is really quite fascinating.  Though it might,
    from my excerpt, seem like a consumer oriented publication with a heavy
    emphasis on scare stories about processed foods, it in fact deals with a day
    in the life of an ordinary house, the invisible things which go on in and
    around it, and the nature of certain common items within it.  Along the way
    there are ample doses of enlightening consumer information.  The New York
    Times called it "nothing short of astounding", and without any hyperbole, I
    quite agree.

    Message: 63316
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl on suicide
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 03:34:20

         Feelings of emptiness, loneliness, guilt, confusion...deep emotional
    and mental scars MIGHT be caused to others by suicide.  But what about
    suicides of people who have no friends?  We should make those suicides
    legal, right?

         Divorce causes feelings of emptiness, lonliness, guilt, confusion,
    emotional scars.  So do breakups of people's first intense romances.  So
    does it hurt when a good friend moves away, or becomes an enemy.  These are
    just examples that show that the criteria you made up for "why suicide
    should be illegal" is arbitrary and illogical.
         Laws aren't designed to keep people from feeling lonely or empty.

         What about euthanasia?

    Message: 63317
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Cliff, are you high?
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 03:38:00

         "If intelligent people will use drugs, we don't stand a chance to have
    a sober civilization."

         That doesn't follow.  If *some* intelligent people use (that could mean
    try once, use occasionally, or use regularly leading to addiction) drugs,
    that doesn't mean civilization will cease to function.  If your argument
    had any logic to it, our society would already be the mess you envision.
    The point is that some people can use drugs and continue to function, and
    some people can't.
         This whole "intelligent people" thing is bogus.  Most people have the
    capacity to make intelligent decisions, with the aid of good objective
    information.  Propaganda and drug laws are not the answer.  People will just
    ignore or rebel against such demeaning tactics.  Consider reconsidering.

         "The only reason I thought that drugs should be made legal has been
    defeated then."

         What *only* reason is that, Cliff?  As I recall you had several
    reasons.

         "I am against drugs since intelligent people are stupid."

          Boy, that makes sense.  You're obviously missing the point.  Stop
    acting dumb.

    Message: 63318
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger/earth age
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 05:13:25

    Who are you (or I) to restrict God to a 24 hour day? I have read Genesis
    carefully, and I can see plenty of room for what we could consider gaps. I
    also read that one day is as a thosand years to the Lord, and a thousand
    years as one day. He does not suffer the same restrictions of time as we do.
     Now who's becoming the literalist?
     I have no problem with the various scientific methods of dating material.
    Neither do I have a problem with "Let there be, and there was".

    Message: 63319
    Author: Melissa Dee
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Today
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 07:36:42

    HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY, EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (Think they heard me?)

    Message: 63320
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob/mind-gym
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 08:47:50

    OK, Bob, are you finished with your tirade ? Now, please answer my question
    (poorly remembered, I'm sure) about your views on the age of the earth.

    Message: 63321
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/earth age
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 08:50:56

    I have no trouble with what you said.

    Message: 63322
    Author: Larry Michaels
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 10:15:32

    You ask: "Who do we punish?"  Punish is an interesting word.  It reminds me
    of an unhealthy society, this word punish.  It seems as if the whole bloody
    planet is on a punishment trip.  This in itself is an indicator of the
    overall intelligence of the inhabitants of planet Earth.

    Sure the criminal is guilty.  I doubt if there is anyone, anywhere that is
    not guilty.  We are all guilty and we all need punishment, lots of it.  Oh'
    whip me, whip me good!

    Strange thing is that those who put people in prisons should also put
    themselves in.  It is just that they are in a position of safety unless of
    course a higher-up needs them out of the way.

    Our society, as a whole, is hardened, greedy and paranoid.  If the cards
    were called in at this moment the human experiment would be a loser.  Cats
    are more civilized even though they catch birds.  We do much worse.  We
    make margarine.

    Our leaders do not carry a spirit of love.  Instead they carry one of rule
    and power for their own kind.  What does a national military budget of 130
    billion dollars tell you?  Isn't this a crime in itself.  But there is no
    way to punish the perpetrators.  Instead we pick the lowly man on the
    street to go after.  He was caught with a joint and now he is in jail at
    taxpayers expense.

    Charles Manson, in his hatred of those who had wealth was responsible for a
    dozen deaths.  The U.S. Military machine is responsible for many more than
    that.  Just by spending billions on war toys causes important social
    programs to be cut back or eliminated.  How many deaths and how much
    hardship has this caused.  Criminals indeed!

    One good way to begin making The Great Change would be to cut out
    television shows like "Dallas".  (Just a thought.)

    Message: 63324
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: Zak on dumb?
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 10:42:13

            That post was in jest...  What you seem to perceive as an
    intelligent person...  I guess I laugh at.   I know some people that I
    consider intelligent and they do not touch the stuff.  On the other hand I
    know several drug users (some are even friends) and I do not consider them
    intelligent even though they may be smart in some fields.

            Give up it up Zak, you will not convert me from this.  You have your
    right to your definition of what you call intelligent...  but I have mine
    too.  I think everyone has their own idea on this subject.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 63325
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: M-Dee
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 11:12:14

            We heard you!

    (Glad to see someone thinking nice thoughts)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 63326
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Adkins/margarine
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 14:06:47

    One question (brought up by someone else in a discussion)...

    What about vegetable margarine?  They don't use beef or lard in many, do
    they?  I don't have any margarine in the fridge, so I can't check...

    Message: 63327
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Larry Michaels
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:08:24

         You totally evaded my question.

         Again, if society is as responsible as criminals, who do we punish?
    Are you saying we shouldn't punish murderers?  Or that we shouldn't punish
    anyone?  If so, how could society function if it didn't deter acts that are
    harmful to others?

    Message: 63328
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:10:54

         I'm not sure what you're saying.  I thouht you were saying that you had
    changed your mind about drug laws.
         What is your definition of intelligence?

         Why do you need to label users or non-users as "intelligent" or
    "not-intelligent"?  I think this is an oversimplification and is more
    harmful to the discussion than helpful.

    Message: 63329
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: CLiff/ Last
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:45:23

    I think Cliff was trying to convey the idea that doing drugs
    and making the decision to take them is not an intelligent one.
    Being addicted, taking drugs, being healthy, running daily
    have no bearing on a persons intelligence.
    What is an "intelligent" descision for me may be the worst one
    for you.
    Drugs may adversely effect the ability of a person to achieve
    a good score on an IQ test...but anyone can do that.

    Message: 63330
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Suicide
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:59:50

    If we allow abortions to be legalized, then we can argue using the same
    arguments to allow suicide to be legalized. The Pro-choice and
    Pro-life groups will have another 10 years to battle!
    Once suicide is legalized, euthanasia could be ratified by making
    "quality of life" "descision making capability" arguments for those
    born deformed, the aged and elderly and those who lost limbs and
    stuff in an accident.
    Suicide is another form censorship.
    It's also a cowards way of telling everyone how selfish they are.
    Kinda like trying to hurt someone else by hurting yourself.
    Teenage suicide;
            The result of selfish parents who spent little time
    teaching their kids how to cope with others. The result of a society
    that places little value on life. The result of individualism.
    The result of wanting everything, getting part of it and not the rest.

    Society is commiting suicide. The faster the better.

    Message: 63331
    Author: Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 17:13:09

    That is a very blind view, Mike.  Many children have no other options but to
    kill themselves to get out of an abusive environment.  Or at least they feel
    they have no options.  I'm sure glad you're not on a suicide hotline.

    Message: 63332
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: James/margerine
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 17:42:19

    No, to the best of my knowledge you are correct.  For example, I believe we
    use Mazola, which is "made from 100 percent corn oil."
    I'm not sure, but I tend to think that in this country, vegatable margerine
    dominates the market.  The author, who was living in France at the time, but
    who went to England for the available references (Science Reference of the
    British Library, the Imperial College Library, and the main University of
    London library, as well as the Science Museum library for historical
    references.  I'm not sure what the make-up of the British/European margerine
    market is, so I couldn't say if this influenced him.
    He also sought help on problems of applied science and technology (the
    author has a degree in pure mathematics), but these references are too
    numerous to list.

    Message: 63333
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Roger
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 19:56:08

    Re:  "are you finished with your tirade"

    Tirade huh?  I take the time to go back and list the facts, and your only
    response is tirade.  That's getting to be very typical of you Roger.  And
    why should I answer your question when you have totally ignored mine?

    Message: 63334
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Larry M.
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 19:57:56

    Re:  "We are all guilty and we all need punishment, lots of it.  Oh'
    whip me, whip me good!"

    You talk like you need it.

    Message: 63335
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James H.
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 20:00:33

    Re:  "What about vegetable margarine?"

    Well I looked the fridge, and there were 2 different brands of Margarine.

    Neither had any animal ingredients.

    Message: 63336
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike C.
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 20:43:21

      Suicide doesn't need to be legalized, it is already legal. It is only
    an unsuccessful attempt at suicide which is illegal in some places.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 63337
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bob
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 21:45:07

    All right. I'll spell it out for you, since my line of argumentation
    seems too subtle for you. I propose to show that you use "mind-gymnastics"
    in defense of a position I think you will take with respect to literal
    interpretation of the Bible. I started this by asking you a question
    about your belief of the age of the universe. You have ignored that
    question. I assume you have ignored that question because you sense
    that I will use whatever argument you use as an example of mind-gymnastics.
    If you have assumed that is what I intend to do, you are quite correct.

    Message: 63338
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Drugs
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:22:32

    Hello, Bob, nice to see you again. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you,
    but drug use is not as simple as all that. Common sense is a nice term, but
    people are complex and the reasons they do things are never that easy.
    People from all walks of life and all intellegence and"common sense" levels
    fall into the trap of the lie of drugs. THe only thing I can find in common
    with the users of drugs and alcohol is a poor understanding that when things
    are not as we would have them to be, it is US that has to change, not them.

    Mike

    Message: 63339
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Feel like a new man!
    Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:36:31

    Well, here is my first entry as a status user.
    (Oohhhh, ahhhhh)

    So, why hasn't anyone brought up Ghee in this bitter butter controvercy,
    hum?