### Apollo BBS Archive - June 11, 1990

    Message: 6571
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: The Zone
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:07:16

            It lives...  It may be waiting got YOU!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 6572
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Cliffy on tapes
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 14:29:44

    So, you have the tapes back. Are you gonna edit out our nude swimming party?
    *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6573
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Bobby on tapes
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 14:31:28

    No - you can't borrow mine, but I'm sure good ole Dean, honest Dean, would
    lend you the entire GT tape - ONLY! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 6574
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Tapes
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 17:42:45

      I seem to have made a mistake in indentifying people in the intro to the
    tape. I labeled the first person on the Starship GT tape as being Chris
    Zagar, but Rod tells me that it was Alan Hamilton. I am sorry for the mixup,
    I had never seen either of them and I didn't know any better. It's too late
    to fix it now as the tape has been finished and several copies made.
      I would like to host a GT for the showing of the tape as soon as it is
    practical for people to come. Any suggestions?
       See You Later,
          Dean H.
    (*

    Message: 6575
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Last....
    Subject: Video
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 20:51:39

    Yeah, I saw a bit of it this weekend.  Nice job, Dean!
    Also, Mark Adkins is referred to in the opening credits as Jeff Beck.  But I
    supposed that is no big deal.

    Message: 6576
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: me
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 22:17:39

    Actually, the only thing that concerns me (if at all) about my appearance in
    the video is that it is probably quite misleading.  I do not recall how I
    appeared at El Dorado, but I now have a crew cut and weight about 130 lbs.

    Message: 6577
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: LAST/JEFF
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:06:03

    You had lots of big, puss filled zits.  Other than that you looked a lot
    like your hero, Jack Webb.

    Or could it be that you looked like a skinhead neo-nazi?  I forget which.
    You'll just have to come to the GT to find out.

    Message: 6578
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Get-Togethers
    Subject: JT
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:13:13

    I spoke with him this evening.  He is living in Hoboken, N.J. and writes for
    a small newspaper in the area.  He left his job as an assistant editor of
    the Street Newspaper after finding out that the managing editor was a
    lunatic.  He is doing well but a little short of cash right now.  He would
    like to come to the GT but cannot afford the $200. round trip plane fare at
    present.  He can come any weekend before Fourth of July which is on a
    Wednesday.

    In any case, if he can't attend I will see that he gets a copy of the tape
    although his format is Beta but he can watch it on a friends player if need
    be.

    I suggest he go as baggage as Dean Hathaway can have him shipped using
    his Federal Express card.  I'll spring for some of the cost.

    By the way, I mentioned that the New Times was in need of an editor and he
    expressed interest.  He has lots of good qualifications.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 3907
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Rod on the f word
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:35:08

            It may not hurt anyone in a physical way, but it lacks 'Social
    Grace'.  Apollo may not be perfect, but I would like it not to fall to the
    level of a total garbage board. Cuss words do not frighten me, but they
    don't add class to Apollo either.

            I like ALL my users... I am proud of every single one of them.  Why
    else would I pour so much into this board for 8 years? Just maybe I need to
    tell you guys this more often...then tear into you for what I *THINK* is
    right.  But then if I did not stick up for what I believed, I would be a
    wimp!  This is not to say that I can't change my mind, as I know I can't be
    right all the time.  I just ain't that good.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 3908
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: social grace
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 01:06:01

    The word "ain't" lacks social grace.  Would you argue that it should be
    censored from all messages?

    Message: 3909
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Re-BuTTal
    Subject: Melissa & Diarrhea
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 07:23:58

            In a literal sense, diarrhea has nothing to do with Woody
    Allen.  It just sort of summed up how I felt that day.
            BTW, have you been dating Jeff Beck or something?  I should
    think that rather than trying to analyze my statement, it would
    encourage you to new heights of creativity.  Maybe a story
    involving sex and diarrhea?

    Message: 3910
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Bill on diarrhea
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 14:36:14

    It was me, not Miz Dee asking about the connection between diarrhea and
    Woody Allen.
    No - I have never dated Jeff Beck. Never met him. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 3911
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Melissa and me
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 22:19:12

    Sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g.

    Well, I guess the cat's out of the bag.  Pass me another "Cheese-it,"
    sweetheart.

    Message: 3912
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cliffy
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:15:18

                        YOU WIMP, YOU!!!!!!!

    Say cheese.

    Message: 3913
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Burkett
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:19:29

    Diarrhea and sex, eh?  How sick can one get?  I can, maybe, see puke and
    sex, toe jam and sex, ear wax and sex, blood and sex, leather and sex,
    safety pins and sex.....but....but.....diarrhea and sex, no way dude.

    Yeah, Mellisa, let's hear a good story about shit and sex, if you don't
    mind.  Could you please make it green with yellow specks, that is my most
    favorite.

    I hope that this sig never sinks as low as Zak's sig has.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 801
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 08:30:15

    Re:  "Have you looked into a mirror lately?"

    How come you didn't put any "smiles" in your reply?  You're getting too
    serious in your old age.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last/Bob

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Oh, you call those little characters at the end of your message smiles?
     2:
     3:I call it a poor attempt at using funny ASCII characters.
     4:
     5:Watch mine........
     6:
     7:            #%&^%#$**     :(     "  "
     8:                                   \
     9:                                  CCBD
    10:
    11:Now that's just good art.
    12:
    13:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 802

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:JN

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Late Night Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press  to abort

    Message: 1835
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Yawn...
    Subject: Diskette
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 01:25:53

    WHere did the weenie who gave the name "Diskette" to this square
    boxed sheet of rotund acetate impregnated with ferrous oxides?
    Whatta complete goon. I suppose he / she was playing to the female
    gender, ending the name in "ette" .
    I don't call my Frisbee a "Frisbette".
    What happened to Gilligan anyway?

    Message: 1836
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Moslem prayers
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 23:08:15

    Actually, they pray facing Mecca, so the Egyptian hineys would be facing our
    way...

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit-Chat

    Subject:last

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Women too?
     2:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 1837

    Late Night Bulletin Board command:JN

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Public & Free Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press  to abort

    Message: 66477
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod on Daryl
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:44:09

            The ules also speek of No Profanity, and Daryl did the best thing
    he could have.   I don't want to have to raise the ((SHIELDS)) at night or
    when I am away.  So the help was appreciated.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66478
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: editing
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 00:53:41

    Well, since the only thing that defines a non-status user is his name, and
    since that name is a matter of public record once he has posted, what is to
    stop anyone from signing in under that name and editing the message?  I do
    not recall seeing this occur, which either says a lot for the respect Apollo
    users have for the integrity of other people's messages, or it says a lot
    about my lack of perspicacity.  Take your pick.

    Message: 66479
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: set sizes
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 01:03:07

    It can be shown that the set of all even, whole numbers is equal to the set
    of all whole numbers, because we can match elements off from each set and
    never run out of elements from either set; and each element from each set is
    counted, and counted only once.
    On the other hand, I can match each element of the set of even, whole
    numbers to the subset of odd, whole numbers from the set of all whole
    numbers, such that all even, whole numbers will be counted, once each; this
    means that there still remain elements (even, whole numbers) from the set of
    all whole numbers which will never be counted.  So in this sense, it could
    be argued that the set of even, whole numbers is less than the set of all
    whole numbers.  What is wrong with this picture?

    Message: 66480
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: China Gate
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 01:08:18

    Pretty good food.  Also, the prices weren't bad.  Part of this was due to
    the fact that they forgot to add $7.50 worth of drinks to our bill, as well
    as the tax on that amount.

    Message: 66481
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl / Ph 4:8
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 01:32:23

    You misunderstand my message.
    I said; "If you were to take the LITERALIST .." note the word LITERALIST.
    i.e. Someone who either does not use common sense in interpreting
    written items and / or someone who extends the meaning beyond its intent.
    ...
    Galatians 6: 1-5

    Message: 66482
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann on Born-Again
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 04:03:31

       There's a lot of denominational differences to consider here.  Some don't
    use the term "born-again", for instance.  Some say that baptism is necessary
    for salvation; others don't.
       One explanation would be that there are people who join churches simply
    as a social thing, claiming to believe in Christ, but not really doing so.
    Since they do not "believe", they are not "born again".
       Thus, one who claims to be a "Born-Again Christian" is simply claiming to
    be a Christian, and implying that there are hypocrites.

                              =(O,O)=   Hoot!

    Message: 66483
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/Set Sizes
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 04:12:21

      What's wrong is that infinite set A is not larger than infinite set B just
    because all of B can be paired one-for-one with a subset of A, leaving
    elements of A uncounted.  Otherwise, the set of natural numbers
    (1..infinity) could be paired with all but the first non-negative integer,
    so that non-negative integers would be "more infinite".
      Two sets are both denumerably infinite if each *can* be matched
    one-for-one with the natural numbers, despite the fact that subsets of
    either can take the same matching.
      The set of pairs of natural numbers (i,j) can be matched one-for-one with
    the natural numbers, and so is simply denumerably infinite.  {Just count
    (0,0) as the first, then (1,0) as the second, then (1,1), (0,1), (-1,0),
    (-1,-1), and so on in a spiral fashion.  *Every* pair will be tagged with a
    natural number, so they have the same cardinality.

                                                       =(O,O)=  Hoot!

    Message: 66484
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 66468
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 07:42:13

    I object to the use of a scatological swear-word on the public board. Clean
    up your act, John.

    Message: 66485
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 08:19:10

    Re:  "Is it 'Reasonable' that if we give up the Constitutional RIGHT to
    carry and bare arms, then the RIGHT to FREE Speech or the Right to religious
    belief of our choosing, can be taken away as easily?"

    I think the ACLU and others are working on the "religious" right.

    Message: 66486
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Welcome
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 09:30:05

    "We don't want your type here" another quote from the friendly "Mighty"
    Sysop.

    I don't skim anything. I am limited as to comment time (since I refuse to
    send you my money). So I am CAPTURING the posts to read them later. But so
    far, the only good reasons for keeping and bearing arms I have seen on this
    BBS are 1)The US Constitution was written on gold tablets and it would be
    unAmerican to consider intrepreting or amending it, and 2) THEY might come
    and get us if we are unarmed. So, 1)is a lie and 2)is paranoid. GIve me some
    real reasons and I will gladly change my mind.

    I am a Christian. I don't own a gun or have any desire to. I follow Jesus
    Christ. I would be VERY interested in hearing how you reconcile being a
    Christian with being a gun-lover. Have you read Jesus' teachings?

    Mike MIDDLETON

    Message: 66487
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: mY MIND
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 09:37:58

    In my mind, what is reasonable gun control? Well, it sure is not anything
    like your totally unreasonable response to the question. Reasonable would
    allow for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms while also protecting the
    population of our country from the threats from our own people with weapons.
    I repeat the question, who is the real enemy? Is it Soviet tanks in Estonia
    or are we the enemy? Bob Thornberg is on the right track with his Ephesians
    quote, but then I always knew Bob was a Christian. But is evil "out there?"
    Or is it human nature inside US that is the enemy?

    My mind? I don't have details at all, that's why I hoped to discuss it with
    reasonable intellegent and mature gun users. Are there any of those on this
    BBS? I thought Hans might be, but he was talking about hitting man-sized
    targets with a single shot... sent a shiver right up my spine. Why do
    gun-lovers want to use "man-sized" targets? Get the "bad guys?" Blame
    "Them?" etc. Society will change when individuals change. Reasonable gun
    control would involve respect for the weapon and the safety of others. All I
    see here is lust for the weapon and mistrust of others.

     .     /\\
     .    {@.@}
     .     )"(     Mike

    Message: 66488
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: AK-47?
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 09:44:35

    There is almost nothing in the Bible to give us a clue as to Jesus' feelings
    on weapons or self-defense. He did make a sarcastic remark about the swords
    on the way to his arrest and he did heal the ear of the person who got hurt
    during the arrest. Overall he taught radical love, to love our enemies. He
    did not defend himself Thursday night at the mock trial and he was
    crucified. I get different conclusions than you do about the nature of
    Jesus' bravery. Yes, a strong man, we agree there, but strong in the way
    that strength leads to gentleness and humility, not strong in the AK-47 on
    automatic mode in a crowd is strong. BTW, I never suggested standing naked
    in the way of tanks. Others on this BBS put those words in my mouth for me
    so they could have something to redicule rather than discuss what I really
    said. Thanks for the post and I am looking forward to discussing with you
    how you came to the conclusion that Jesus would have used weapons to defend
    himself.

    Mike

    Message: 66489
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: $tatus users only
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 10:25:07

            Having people log in as other other active Non-$tatus users has been
    a very rare occurrence.  At one time (6 years) ago, we had it so when a
    Non-$tatus user posted, the system prompted for a 'post password', but this
    proved to be confusing to the passer by user... and even the regular non
    members would forget their passwords and could not ZAP their oun posts.
    It was then decided to remove this feature as most who used the system with
    any regularity, also joined and had but a single master password.  This
    saved a lot of programming space as well.   As you can see, Daryl showed the
    other PLUS side of not having post passwords.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66490
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 10:34:23

            Okay, you say we are not intelligent enought to talk to you, so we
    won't.  Your post was nothing but, slam, slam, slam!  And you failed to
    really answer my questions.
            Funny, I fail to see you as a Christian, but then I am NOT the one
    to make that judgement.  So long...  I am off to talk to people who wish to
    talk.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66491
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike (another slam)
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 10:56:42

            I am fed up with hearing about how you refuse to send me money.
    I would not even take your precious coins of gold at this point.  Even
    $tatus users have a time limit, but if they need more time, they log in
    again.  No one is forced to join... no one is forced to help pay for the
    costly ZONE 'A' line that saves MANY users much more then the $tatus fee.
    I do NOT take in enough each month to even cover that one dedicated line
    that is NEVER used for anything but this 100% full time BBS.  So why don't
    you just quit whining about it.

            Having $tatus members helps make things like the ote cmd
    accurate.  No one can log in as 5 different people and load a VOTE or POLL.

            You keep the kids and the un-serious off the SIGs (they are like
    clubs)

            This system of how Apollo works has kept it the oldest active BBS in
    this state and one of the oldest in the nation.  And we even do supply a
    free PUBlic board and a free Post Office with greeking for privacy.
    We as a club have helped poor users, over rough times.. we are a family!

            So, I am fed up with your digs and bitches guy.  I have tried
    talking nice to you, but you and your self-righteous attitude is not of love
    as you preach.  Get off your High Horse and quit bitching how my system
    works.   *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66492
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Your ?s
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 12:52:51

    1.  Was it 'Reasonable' for the regestered (sic) Polish gun owners to
        be shot by the Russians even after the Germans had disarmed them?
    The problem with Hitler and the German army was not one of arms in the
    hands of the citizens of the countries they overran. Many Europeans went
    along with and supported Hitler. Those in the way were killed and their
    weapons added to the arsenal. WWII is not a good arguement to arm our
    population, but to consider the hearts of those who supported Hitler. If
    people in Europe felt as I do now, would there have been a Third Reich?
    Did fear and blame and hate and an armed population cause or prevent
    WWII? The answer is the Cross and following the Prince of Peace.

    2.  Was it 'Reasonable' to have the Red army shoot my relitives (sic)
        after gun control took away their weapons? Is it 'Reasonable' to assume
        that history can repeat its self (sic)?
    I am saddened to hear of your relatives, sadder that you failed to learn
    the lesson so that they died in vain. Gun Control did not kill your
    grandparents, the very attitude you now possess, but in the hearts of
    the Red Army is what killed; "THEY" are to blame, kill "THEM." Until we
    realize the enemy is US, in our hearts, in our rebellion against God,
    until we confess our position in Sin and die with Christ, until we know
    the indwelling Holy Spirit who unites and unifies all people in Love,
    then YES, history will repeat itself. In Christ, there is no need for
    guns. In Christ there is the Peace that passes understanding. Have hope.
    - cont -

    Message: 66493
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Your ?s
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 12:54:57

    3. Is it 'Reasonable' that if we give up the Constitutional RIGHT to
       carry and bare arms, then the RIGHT to FREE Speech or the
       Right to religious belief of our choosing, can be taken away
       as easily?  Once the Guns are gone, it will even be an easier
       task.
    Reasonable Gun Control does not take away any rights, only
    protects my right to life from the gun nuts on the loose in this
    country. No one is going to take away our rights to Free Speech
    or Assembly or to worship in our own way. Those are paper tigers
    set up to justify your hobby and paranoia. Who, pray tell, is the
    enemy? Do you think the leaders of other nations who can not even
    run their own countries want to try to run America? Wake up!
    Japan is making deep economic inroads to control our society with
    our own businesses all the while we are our target practicing so
    we can repel the "enemy." We will only loose rights that we abuse
    and are our own worst enemy. Greed, lust, laziness, divisive
    spirits, mistrust, lack of cooperation, the expectation that
    rights are not things we earn but are owed; these are our enemies
    and they are in our own hearts. That's why we need to give up our
    own fears, plans, schemes, controls, manipulations, judgements,
    fightings, demands, selfishness, and paranoia. That is why is it
    right to die with Christ in humble and contrite confession of our
    part of the mess and let God give us new hearts of love and
    service to others. That's what's radical. That's the hope.

    Message: 66494
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 12:56:52

    I did not answer your questions then because your greedy sheilds kept me
    from doing so. I answered in separate posts. If you want to talk, give me
    access to your BBS so I can talk. You are right, you do not get to judge.

     .  _|_
     .   |
     .   |     Mike

    Message: 66495
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Pay Attention
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 13:19:01

    Cliff, (for the 4th time) it is your BBS and you have the right to run it
    any way you wish to. It is just that I also run a BBS and I also have a
    dedicated line (12 pair data quality line) and I do not charge. I am not
    going to send you money because I KNOW what the expenses really are and I
    see no reason to require callers to pay to get full access to a public BBS.
    That is also my right to feel that way. Now, fine. You have your right and I
    have mine. BUT, when I can not respond to you because of YOUR sheilds and I
    have to log off and then get the busy signal while you slam me and have to
    wait to get back on to answer you, you do NOT have the right to blame me for
    that. That is a consequence of the way you have decided to set this BBS up,
    not my unwillingness to discuss. The bottom line is that you will have to
    either allow me the time to reply and be patient or else give me access
    without money. Your decision.

    Second, who called who a JERK? Who told who to go to China, as a
    yellow-bellied traitor? How dare you imply that *I* am the one who stands in
    the way of civil conversation? Read back over your last dozen posts to me
    and think about the need to apologize.

    Mike

    Message: 66496
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Article
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 14:25:56

    For those that are interested, especially you Mike, because you seemed to
    be concerned - here is an article that appeared in this Sunday's paper. For
    those of you not interested, please use the (S)kip key because it's a long
    article

                 KILLING BIG GAME ON PUBLIC LAND By David E. Brown
         If you paid your taxes in 1987, you helped the U.S. government kill
    250 black bears and four grizzlies in nine Western states. Seven wolves and
    181 mountain lions were also destroyed by government agents working for
    Animal Damage Control, a branch of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Many
    of these animals were killed on national forests or other public land.
         In 1988, you killed more - 290 black bears and 203 lions. Thousands of
    coyotes, skunks, beavers, blackbirds and other animals were also destroyed
    at the cost of $25 million.
         The reason for these taxpayer-funded deaths was to help subsidize the
    American livestock industry and other agricultural interests.
         Like many federal programs, ADC's beginnings were modest enough.
    Before World War l, ranchmen and sportsmen thought that predator control
    was necessary to protect livestock and restore depleted game problems.
    Ranchers and sportsmen lobbied for a predator-control program at public
    expense. The rationale was that both predators and game animals were a
    public charge and that the welfare of the range stock industry was in the
    public interest. And, was it not also true that the national forests and
    parks harbored most of the bears, wolves, lions & other problem animals?
         Congress in 1914 appropriated $125,000 for a Predatory Animal and
    Rodent Control (PARC) branch of the U.S. Biological Survey. It's mission
    was to conduct "experiments and demonstrations in destroying wolves,
    prairie dogs and other animals injurious to agriculture and animal
    husbandry.
         Although the wolf was to be the primary target of the PARC, the agency
    also declared war on "big bears", Jaguars, mountain lions and "other
    obnoxious" animals. With demand for increased beef and wool production
    brought on by World War l, the new bureaucracy would enjoy a steady growth
    in appropriations.
         It did not take long for conflicts to develop between the PARC,
    ranchers and sport hunters. In 1918, the PARC began experimenting with
    predacides - a euphemism for poison. Poison not only killed non-target
    species of Wildlife, it also severely restricted the use of hunting with
    dogs. Bear and lion hunters howled in protest, but to little avail. By
    1924, poison was the PARC's weapon on choice.
         The following years saw an increasing estrangement between
    conservationists and the PARC. While few then mourned the passing of the
    wolf from the West, the taking of lions and bears by the PARC soon became a
    controversial issue. The PARC's sometimes wholesale destruction of wildlife
    through the use of cyanide "coyote getters" and the lethal predacide
    Compound 1080 became anathema to the growing number of non-ranching users
    of public lands after World War ll.
         By the 1960s and early 1970s, bears and mountain lions had graduated
    to the status of "big game" in most Western states. In 1971, the use of
    Compound 1080 was banned by executive order.
         The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, heir to the old U.S. Biological
    Survey, found it's PARC operations embarrassing. Changing the name to
    Animal Damage Control was not enough; the agency and it's personnel who
    killed eagles in Texas, bears on Indian reservations and lions almost
    anywhere, were now at odds with the new wildlife husbandry goals of the
    service.  Quietly, and with the tacit agreement of all concerned, Animal
    Damage Control was transferred out of the Interior Dept. back to
    Agriculture.
         With only a ranching and farming constituency to answer to, ADC
    resumed with a vengeance it's campaign against bears, lions and coyotes.
    Because of permissive state laws regulating the taking of bears, lions and
    coyotes on rangelands, the only restraint on ADC activities in Arizona and
    New Mexico was how much money it had to spend - a problem solved by larger
    budget appropriations and cost-sharing by states, counties and local
    stockmen's associations. Cost-sharing had long been used to fund ADC
    programs in Texas, and agency administrators reasoned that similar funds
    could be realized elsewhere.
         But times have changed. The killing of big game animals on public
    lands is no longer acceptable. Photographs of ADC lion killings near
    Aravaipa Canyon and reports of dead bears on the Apache-Sitgreaves National

         But don't count ADC out. The agency has a long history and plenty of
    legislative clout. It's state directors and supporters have not kept the
    agency alive for 75 years without political savvy. If anyone thinks
    otherwise, let him or her try to reform the archaic laws regulating ADC's
    taking of wildlife or reduce it's funding. A recent attempt to rectify
    Arizona's liberal "stock-killing" law in the state Legislature resulted in
    ranchers and the ADC being allowed to keep secret the location of bears and
    lions killed on federal lands.
         Do not be surprised that when the final figures for 1989 become
    available, you will have killed even more animals. At least 50 bears and 50
    lions are known to have been destroyed this year in Arizona and New Mexico
    alone. The president's budget for 1990 calls for spending $29.8 million for
    Animal Damage Control - $4.2 million more then in 1989.
         One wonders when we will have killed enough. Will it be only when the
    only large animals left on the public domain are cows and other meat
    animals?
    =========================================================================='
    Me: I'd sure like to do something about this but don't know where to turn
    really. Does anyone else know what can be done? -=*) ANN (*=-
    c.c. Mike Carter - wolf owner!

    Message: 66500
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Goodbye
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 17:27:35

    Just thought the other callers here would like to know that Cliff and I
    visited on the phone for an hour or so this afternoon. I came to
    understand his position on guns (I think), but could not follow his
    twisted logic. Still, we found many points in common. I like to bowl
    and so does Cliff, although I use a bowling ball to knock the pins down. I
    like watermelon, too, but I slice mine the usual way. I was amazed that
    Cliff can make guns from space-age plastic that go through metal detectors
    and that don't even look like guns. I learned about all the different
    designations of guns, which ones can splatter a human being at 600 yards,
    and all the misinformation the media is putting out about the pure fun of
    automatic weapons. We also found out that we agree that there is no real
    Satan as a literal character, but that evil is in each of us. We agree
    that people wrote the Bible and that since it has errors in it, we can't
    go around requiring people to follow just one way of intrepreting it. We
    agreed that we both believe in Jesus, but didn't get very deep into what
    that means for everyday decisions. We also agreed the Church is the Body
    of Christ. I tried to be clear that I don't want to disarm our population,
    but that I feel gun ownership should mean training and sensible use. I
    tried to be clear that I did not kill Cliff's relatives in Estonia in the
    1930's, but that hate, fear and prejudice did. I learned that $tatus user
    means "one of us" in the siege mentality of the Sysop. So, I will not be
    using this BBS in the future. Yes, Cliff, one less cowardly "JERK" for you
    to protect yourself from! When the Red Army invades Glendale, I won't give
    them my list of gun nuts. You're semi-safe, at least from yellow me.

    Message: 66501
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 17:53:43

       You are making a gigantic mistake when you compare auto
    registration or a drivers license with restriction on gun ownership.
    These restrictions on the use of an automobile are regulations and
    taxes pertaining to the use of public roadways. You can exercise your
    right to travel by car without meeting those licensing and
    registration requirements, but only if you can show that you are not
    engaging in any type of commerce when you travel. Also, if you wish to
    purchase a vehicle and use it strictly on private land, you may do so
    without any licenses or registrations.
       A true comparison between gun use and the commonly accepted
    restrictions upon automobile use would be that when you go to shoot at
    a public shooting range you pay a user fee and sign in for the use of
    certain range facilities. The distinction is that taxation and
    regulation apply to the use of public property, not as a prior
    restraint upon the ownership of the car, or the gun.
       Licenses and registrations and fees and training programs could
    all be required for the use of public shooting facilities, just as
    they are for motorists, other than the pure, non-commercial
    'traveler', when they use public roadways. The incidence of shootings
    at firing ranges is so tiny that more restrictions would serve little
    purpose.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66502
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 17:54:22

       Again we hear the refrain of: We only want 'reasonable' gun
    control, but if you won't give in to that, it will be necessary to go
    further. What 'reasonable' means is never really explained. In order
    to be 'reasonable' a proposed restriction would have to be one which
    had a positive effect on crime or accidents, and did not create a
    burden upon law abiding citizens which was out of proportion to its
    benefits.
       Waiting periods are certainly not reasonable. They have had no
    positive effect anywhere that they have been tried, and they wrongly
    assume that more people who buy a gun in a retail store want to commit
    a crime with it than need it to protect themselves against crime.
       Further registration is certainly not reasonable. Most gun control
    advocates are not even aware that under existing federal law every
    retail gun sale has been registered for the past 22 years. The total
    benefit of this colossal waste of time and paper has been the ability
    to trace a fraction of guns used in crimes to their last point of
    legal sale. The cost of this basically useless information has been
    millions of dollars, and the creation of a bureaucracy to catalog and
    harass ONLY the nation's non-criminal gun owners. The very same year
    that national gun registration became law the Supreme Court held that
    real criminals could not be convicted of violating the act because it
    would be self incriminating for them to comply with it.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66503
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Medicine
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 17:55:08

       It is not time for us to demand the the government take care of us
    all, it is time to demand that the government stop robbing us and and
    stop interfering with our ability to take care of ourselves. The
    state can not give you anything that it hasn't taken away from you or
    someone else. Government creates nothing, it only redistributes and
    consumes.
       There are care systems which work like banks. A person earns
    credits by working in the system, and then draws on those credits to
    get help for themselves or someone else. In-home care, shopping,
    driving, and all sorts of jobs are traded for credit. The elderly are
    especially well suited for working in this type of program, since
    they have the time to give, and the incentive to prepare towards
    their own needs. Being a needed element in another's life often
    becomes the greatest reward for someone who is able, but otherwise
    unemployable. This type of care can replace some of the most
    expensive burdens of health care, and it can make in-home care
    possible for many who would otherwise have to be institutionalized.
    It requires no government subsidies or bureaucrats, and it makes use
    of one of the most overlooked resources we have: the time, energy,
    and compassion of older Americans.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66504
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 18:11:23

      You say that being disarmed had nothing to do with the carnage the
    estonians suffered. It is interesting that Switzerland was never invaded,
    although Germany was extremely interested in getting ahold of its banks and
    using its strategic position against the rest of Europe. Do you know why the
    Germans did not attack? The armed population of Switzerland and their
    preparations for defense of the country assured that although the Germans
    could probably take Switzerland the price would be too high to consider.
      Armed neutrality is the best guarantee of freedom, not just for nations,
    but for individuals. Pacifism can only succeed where someone is willing to
    oppose agression, even if it is not the pacifist himself. Ideally, we could
    give government a total monopoly of force and depend on it to protect our
    freedom. In fact, we can not do this. Furthermore, even in a totally just
    and perfect society there would be an evil in declaring that the individual
    could not be trusted to own a firearm. The relationship between governed and
    government must be one where the governed are the master of the government,
    and that can only maintained where the government does not have the power to
    render the governed defenseless.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66505
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Retraction
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 20:02:18

            I had once said Mike Middleton was not a Christian.  After todays
    nice chat, I found we share many thoughts about Christ... So I retract my
    statement and APOLLO-gize to Mr. Middleton.

            We also talked about GUNs...  But I see from his last post, he does
    not know what he is really talking about.  He thinks I was talking about
    full automatics...when I was not.  The public version of the AR-15 is not
    full auto.  I even tried to tell him I could fire (round for round) my
    revolver faster. Poor Mike, trying to make laws for something he has no
    knowledge of, and cares not to even try to learn.  I do see where he is
    coming from in the training area, and feel people who have weapons SHOULD be
    educated in the proper handling of same. But Registration is the wrong way
    to do it.

            If people were really interested in education, I would say to make
    weapons handling a required course by the 7th grade level.  Even people who
    do not want to own a weapon, should know how to unload one, should one be
    found in an unsafe condition.  And even before 7th grade, children should be
    taught guns are not TOYS.  Educating people in this manner may take a few
    years, but once it gets into mainstream America, there might be less
    accidental deaths by weapons, and a whole lot more respect.  The above is
    one way there could be training without REGISTRATION that many people fear.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66506
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Middleton
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 20:08:21

            I enjoyed the chat we had, and I am very puzzled by his post of late
    this afternoon.   He said he was even thinking of joining if the users of
    the CHRistian SIG would vote to let him in.  We left with nice words, and I
    had a better respect for Mike...only to have him again slam me in his last
    goodbye post.

            If he wishes to leave...Oh well, it is of his own choosing.  I am
    sure there will be users who will miss him.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66507
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hate,fear,prejudice
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 20:28:19

            Funny, I thought people pulled the triggers that killed the Estonia
    and Polish people.

    Re: I learned that $tatus user means "one of us" in the siege mentality of
    the Sysop."
            What does that mean?  I do not recall saying any such thing.  I even
    invited him over...  I made every effort to assure him I was not going to
    hurt him.  I said we could even meet some place else.  At a GT maybe?

    Re: Red army invading Glendale...
            I made no mention of that at all, our enemy will probably be from
    within.

    Re: Bowling and watermelon
            I bowl with a ball as well, but I also like shooting at old bowling
    pins.  It is a sport, but not Mike M. approved.  I also like watermelon to
    eat myself.  I TOLD Mike about a fraud test the media did with a watermelon.

            As for Hate, Fear and Prejudice...Mike M. appears to fill the bill.
    Good slams Mike...  I have apollo-gized, but Mikes hate keeps swinging.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66508
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: For sale
    Subject: Booklets
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 21:24:07

    Coming to a mailbox near you!
    Now taking orders for "Doing Dishes"($3.00) and "Pool Side"($1.00), the new
    stories.  Also available are "Tanning Bed"($3.00) and "Loving Thyself"($1.00

    Send E-mail here to order or write to
    Mychele
    P.O. Box 1892
    Tempe, AZ  85280-1892

    Due to adult material, booklets will not be sold to minors.

    Message: 66509
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/sets
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 21:40:10

    Very good.  I had a difficult time explaining that to the gentleman with
    whom I had the discussion, and your example is particularly illuminating and
    easy to grasp (perhaps mine was more obscure, but then again, perhaps his
    thinking was merely too rigid.)

    Message: 66510
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Middleton/guns
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 21:46:43

    I am not a Christian, and therefore do not have to reconcile any attitudes
    with the teachings of Christ, *as interpreted and perceived by men through
    the writings of men*.
    On the other hand, who is being paranoid here?  Those who have observed
    that, in the real world, unlike in the ideal world which you inhabit,
    political power is ultimately reducible to firepower, or those who refuse to
    admit this fact and who instead imagine "gun-lust" and "gun-love" in the
    heart of every man whose views are contrary to yours?

    Message: 66511
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Middleton/WW II
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 21:57:24

    It was not sympathy for Hitler which allowed him to act: even within his own
    country, Nazi loyalists were *at least* matched in number by those who
    opposed Nazi ideologies.  Instead, we observe that the Nazis were supported
    by the Government, which gave them much greater support in terms of money
    and *weapons*, but also, the fact that a good many of those who were in
    opposition to the Nazis were unwilling to adopt the military stance
    necessary to defeat them.  That is, in following the pacifist teachings of
    the "Prince of Peace," they made possible the victory of the warmongers.  So
    then, would there have been a Third Reich had *everyone* been peaceloving?
    No.  But not everyone is peaceloving, and it is sheer idiocy and
    self-delusion to assume that this could become practical reality under
    real circumstances.  Peace and pacifism are not identical.

    Message: 66512
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Middleton/guns
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 22:03:23

    Gun control, reasonable or otherwise, will not prevent you from coming to
    harm at the hands of "gun-nuts."  It has been shown that gun control will
    only work with those who are willing to act within the system.  Since those
    who are willing to act within the system cannot presumably be characterized
    as "gun-nuts," and since "gun-nuts" are not presumably willing to act within
    the system, therefore gun control will not affect "gun-nuts," and will only
    serve to reduce the rights of non-"gun-nuts."

    Message: 66513
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: space
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 22:28:24

    "Suppose we imagine ourselves moving outwards in a straight line pas the
    stars, galaxies or nebulae and beyond them.  There are only three
    possibilities.  First, we may ultimately find ourselves in an infinite,
    empty space with no stars or nebulae.  This means that our stellar universe
    may be no more than a small oasis in an infinite desert of empty space.
    SEcond, we may go on and on for ever and ever meeting new stars and nebulae
    in an infinite space.  In this case, there would be an infinite number of
    stars and nebulae in an infinite space.  Third, we may be able to return
    ultimately to our starting point having as it were circumnavigated the
    universe like a tourist returning home after a round the world trip.  If we
    reject the last possibility as utterly fantastic, we have to do some pretty
    tough thinking to get over the difficulties which the other two
    possibilities raise.
    A finite stellar universe in an infinite space would either condense into a
    single large mass due to gravitation, or gradually dissipate, because if
    gravitation fails to produce condensation, the stellar radiation, as also
    the stars themselves would pass out into infinite space never to return, and
    even without ever coming into interaction with other objects of nature.  We
    find the second possibility -- an infinite number of galaxies in infinite
    space -- no more satisfactory.  It leads to the rather absurd conclusion
    that gravitational force is everywhere infinite.  Every body would find
    itself subjected to an infinite pull. . . ."
    " . . . [even if we were to effect an ad hoc amendment of Newton's law]
    there is another objection which would still be raised.  Imagine that space
    is really infinite with an infinite number of stars and nebulae therein,
    then the night sky would be a blaze of light with no dark patches between
    the stars. . . . However sparse the nebular distribution in space, provided
    space was infinite, the entire sky would appear to be studded with stars and
    nebulae leaving not a single point uncovered."

    "At a distance of about 6 million light years the velocity of nebular
    or galactic recession is about 300 miles per second.  Since the velocity of
    this recession is proportional to its distance, a galaxy at a distance of
    150 million light years would be receding at a rate of about 7,500 miles per
    second, and a galaxy at 1,500M light years at 75,000 miles a second. At this
    rate a galaxy at a distance of 3,720 million light years would be receding
    from us (or what amounts to the same thing) or we should be receding from it
    at 186,000 miles per second, which is the velocity of light.  No ray of
    light emitted by it would be seen by us.  Even though space might have an
    infinite number of galaxies in the infinite recesses of its depth, we could
    never see more than a few, namely, those within a radius of 3720 million
    light years, and even these would eventually dissapear from our ken.  Since
    all the nebulae at present visible are receding from us, one day they too
    will reach the limit of our vision at the critical distance of 3,720 million
    light years.  When this happens they shall pass beyond our horizon and we
    shall never see them again.  Apparently then, our universe is doomed to be
    gradually but systematically impoverished.  Nor is the approach of such
    cimmerian nights, when we shall cease to see any galaxy in the sky, a very
    long way off after all.  The cosmic broomstick that we see at work may sweep
    the heavens clean of all the galaxies that we now observe in about 10,000
    million years, which is only a fifth of the life-span of an average star.
    After that, our galaxy would have an eternity of solitude."

    Message: 66516
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: I am Upset!
    Date: 06/11/90  Time: 23:41:55

            People who know me, and that is many of you!  People who have
    attended my garage lectures on guns will also tell you that I do not use
    verbage like "Splatter a man all over the place".

            What I told Mike is That media hype on AR-15 type 223 weapons is
    unfounded.  That one can take a single action Remington Model 700, 308 bolt
    action and be more effective shooting a TARGET at 600 yards.  Nothing about
    Splattering a MAN.  I did talk about the media fraud perpetrated on the
    public when they were doing a story on AR-15 type weapons and when the 3000
    foot per second round hit the watermelon, it made a small clean little hole.
    The media felt that was not right so they took a slow and fat, short range
    800 foot per second 45 caliber, hollow point round & splatterd the
    watermelon, telling the public, this is what a 223 will do to you.  A LIE,
    and they were caught, but only after the program was aired.

            I have never SHOT a watermelon!  I am innocent, but I have EATEN
    some.

            When I talked about 'Silhouette' shooting at Ben Avery shooting
    range, Mike blurted out "Silhouettes of MEN" in a disgusted tone.  Everyone
    who knows anything about the sport of 'Silhouette' shooting, knows they are
    small metal (steel) targets shaped like little animals.. Bunnies, etc.
    Talk about HATE and PREJUDICE, I give you the users of Apollo, Mr Mike
    Middleton!

    Message: 66517
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Self Defense
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:01:17

            Now, so you are not all confused, when you are in the Military, or
    the Police force, or taking classes on Self Defense, you of course do NOT
    shoot at little Bunnies.  You shoot at Man Sized targets, except for the
    police, they shoot at oversized man type targets, they get a better score
    that way and can qualify.  I have documents that state this as fact too.

            But, In self Defense class, they teach you how to AVOID the
    confrontation, unlike the Military or the Police.

            People live in a real world.  I wish it was not filled with anger,
    hate, drugs, bigotry, rape and other crime...but it is, that is a FACT of
    life and if you love your family like I love mine, you will try and protect
    them.  Being ignorant won't protect you, and the Police can't protect you.
    Self Defense can mean Running away or standing your ground when you have no
    where else to go.

            Questions?  Give me a call?  Have a weapon, get training, PLEASE!

    As Mr Westfall has said so well, "I am off my soap-box"

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66518
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Daryl
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:28:20

    I was just joshing Daryl, Cliff.  Josh as in Josh McDowell because that is
    the type of non-logic he uses to try to convince people that humanoids were
    created by some really intelligent dude.

    And because of it we are supposed to pray to it in fear and thankfullness or
    something to that particular tune.

    That's it.

    Message: 66519
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike M.
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 00:42:22

    Apollo costs $12. per year.  According to my calculator that comes to...let
    me see.....wait a sec.....uh...yeah....A dollar per month.

    Agreed, it is expensive entertainment and I have to work two jobs in order
    to meet that obligation but hey, it just may be worth it.

    Let's see....at a dollar per month....I get approximately 30 hours of great
    entertainment AND education, plus some really raunchy friends but friends
    none the less.

    Sure, the price may be steep but the SYSOP has to buy gasoline for his Rolls
    not to mention his Lamborganni.  Sure he's a rich, well to do, capitalistic
    pig who is taking us suckers for a long ride but after I take my Thorazine
    it don't seem to matter that much no more.

    For just 125 aluminum cans per month I can get on this system and leave
    stupid messages.  I've been doing it now for five years and I almost don't
    have to look at that ole keyboard anymore.  Thats gotta be worth something.

    And I've met really crazy people here who I admire.

    Well, gotta go feed the sheep.           -Rod Williams

    Message: 66520
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/12/90  Time: 01:12:46

    You killed a rabbit?

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