### Apollo BBS Archive - September 1, 1990

    $tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 6657
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Idea for thought
    Subject: perception
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 02:23:09

    "Common sense imagines that when it sees a table it sees a table.  This is a
    gross delusion.  When common sense sees a table, certain light waves reach
    its eyes, and these are of a sort which, in its previous experience, has
    been associated with certain sensations of touch, as well as with other
    people's testimony that they also saw the table.  But none of this ever
    brought us to the table itself.  The light waves caused occurences in the
    optic nerve, and these caused occurences in turn in the brain.  Any one of
    these, happening without the usual preliminaries, would have caused us to
    have the sensations we call "seeing the table," even if there had been no
    table.  As to the sense of touch when we press the table with our fingers,
    that is an electrical disturbance on the electrons and protons of our
    fingertips, produced, according to modern physics, by the proximity of the
    electrons and protons of the table.  If the same disturbance in our
    fingertips arose in any other way, we should have the sensations, in spite
    of there being no table.  The testimony of other witnesses is obviously a
    second-hand affair. A witness in a law court, if asked whether she or he had
    seen some occurence, would not be allowed to reply that she or he believed
    so because of the testimony of others to that effect..."

    Message: 6658
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: I'm bored.
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 04:43:57

    I'm bored.  I'm not sleepy.  I'm not interested in reading at the moment.  I
    am tired of listening to music.  Too bad no one is awake to call...even Rod
    Williams is asleep by this time, night owl that he is. I briefly considered
    calling Roger Mann, waking him up, and pretending to be his lost cousin Bob,
    badly in need of money, but even in my boredome I haven't sunk to that
    point.

    I think I'm going to invent an elaborate imaginary language, with 43 verb
    tenses, and 703 ways to describe bodily waste products; I'll document it in
    notebooks, and then I'll bury the notebooks in a time-capsule for the
    benefit of future archaeologists.  No, no good...the paper would decay long
    before they found it.  Hmmm...perhaps I could entertain myself by exhausting
    every possible permutation of volume, tone, and inflection with which I
    could say my own name.  Perhaps I'll crack open an egg and make extensive
    perspective line drawings of the interior.  Or, I could write an electronic
    symphony, totally cacophonous, utterly random, and call it "Brownian
    Motion."  I could then submit it to some publicly funded arts organisation
    along with glossy photos of fornicating pigs.  No particular reason for that
    last part.  Maybe I could sit around shouting "Shiva! Shiva! Shiva!" until
    Shiva opened Shiva's eye and destroyed the universe.  If that makes no sense
    to you, never mind.  Perhaps I'll write a book of abstruse, ultimately
    nonsensical philosophy, pretend to be a graduate student, and mail it to a
    random professor.

    Message: 6659
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 13:49:18

      I think we both had too much caffeine last night.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 6660
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Caffeine, No.
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 20:29:11

    It was Nutra Sweet.
    Good posts though.  Is Nutra Sweet a close cousin to LSD by any chance?

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69088
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 02:50:38

    As you pointed out, half the people in the arab world seem to be named
    Hussein.  The Hussein mentioned in your article is not the current ruler of
    Iraq.  I have already explained why it would be a grievous public relations
    error to have an Iraq -- Arab Without A Cause vs. American/Zionist
    Imperialism debate.   And why should Bush treat Hussein as an equal?  Give
    us a break from your ludicrous conspiracy theories, Rod.

    Message: 69089
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 02:51:33

    "We wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't have said
    anything against market controls if they were in fact used to prevent fraud
    and force in commercial trade.  That simply is not the intent of much market
    control."

    There you go again...asserting that the mere existence of a controversy
    proves your side and disproves mine.  C'mon, Dean, people can disagree
    about anything, including whether the Earth is flat or round...and do.
    That doesn't prove that one side is right or that the other isn't.  You can
    sit there and repeat that the intent of market controls is to boss people
    around, until you are blue in the face for all I care, but market controls
    are NEVER ostensibly instituted for that purpose -- how far do you think
    they would get if they were?  How effective they are is a matter for
    analysis in individual cases...my point is that their intent, as much as it
    can be determined by the language of those proposing them, is most
    frequently to prevent and punish fraud and coercion in business.

    "The intent you claim for market controls would not require one percent of
    the intrusion and cost of existing government regulation..."

    That's your opinion.

    "A true test of laissez-faire would be to actually have it in place for a
    significant amount of time...fifty years...that it my criteria for disproof.

    Oh, is that ALL??  At least you are finally admitting that it WOULD require
    a pure free-market in order to get you to change your mind.  Well, the
    adherents of socialism, Mooneyism, anarchy, facism, and every other
    extremism would like to test their beliefs the very same way.  "Oh," they
    cry, "if only we could show you what our system could do, unadulterated by
    our opponents."   No thanks!  I'd rather take my chances with the government
    , and given my cynicism with regard to Uncle Sam & minions, that says a lot.

    I never claimed that the drug trade, in all its facets, was a pure
    oligopoly.  You can grow your own pot, if you have a mind to, and even sell
    it.  And I have no idea what influence the big syndicates have on the price
    of heroin in Timbuk-Tu.  The point, my dear fellow, and a point which I
    have made abundantly clear, is that it largely operates as an oligopoly,
    that it is NOT open (for reasons of thuggery or anything else), nor are
    its prices competitive (i.e. the prices are monopolistic and bear no
    relation to the costs of capital and production).

    "The economics...I described are simple [and always apply]."

    Yes, they certainly are simple...and I notice you haven't made any attempt
    to refute my points...you merely deny them.

    "Complex arrangements do not change the underlying truths."

    In other words, don't confuse you with the facts.  I'm glad to hear that
    the complexities of the real world don't affect your eternal, immutable,
    economic truths.  Perhaps you should open a monastery.

    "We are speaking entirely different languages if you identify easy entry
    into every market as the only test of an economic system."

    I don't.  I merely point out that market barriers affect your simplistic
    notions of how investment capital is supposed to bring everything down
    to some provisional equilibrium where industry output is at a feasible
    maximum and industry selling price is at a feasible minimum.  I have shown
    that where a market is concentrated and where medium to high barriers exist,
    this is not so: that sellers can keep prisebjI%911e"=:11
    	=Y
    competitive prices, quite successfully, and without drawing new sellers into
    the market.

    "Your attitude toward advertising is very paternalistic...[you think] people
    must be protected from those would would give them the impression that one
    brand is better than another..."

    I have said no such thing.  I merely pointed out that your statement that
    "You cannot produce something at a price which is not related to its
    costs of capital and production and stay in business unless you are using
    state power to hold the capital hostage or to subsidize the price through
    the theft of taxation." is demonstrably false.  The same goes for your
    assertion that "an arbitrary price scheme cannot fool the market."
    Obviously it can, when Bayer can sell aspirin at over 200 percent the
    price of their competition, and at probably 500 percent of what it costs
    them, and not only stay in business but decisively dominate it.

    "The concentration of industrial power under a mixed economy can not be
    attributed to those practicing the strictly economic means of earning
    wealth, it is more often a result of exerting the political means which
    would not exist in a free market economy...You will see the power of
    government in the pocket of nearly every one [of those czars]."

    Yes, I fully expected you to blame the government for the venality of big
    business.  What else is new?

    If the government (and by government, I mean the government body which
    determines and enforces public policies, not individuals on the take) is
    so supportive of these combinations, why do they attempt to conceal their
    actions from the anti-trust division?  Why are their holdings in most cases
    hidden in secret trust arrangements camouflaged under "street" names (Chase
    in '73 used 24 Wall street names to disguise its holdings...some of these
    include "Clint," "Cudd," "Egger," "Gooss," "Gunn," "Kane," "Ring...") ?
    Consider the case in the early 1960s of the General Electric/Westinghouse
    price fixing case.  Forty-five executives and twenty-nine companies,
    controlling 95 percent of the heavy electric industry, were involved in a
    conspiracy to rig prices on a scale so vast that it embraced everything from
    the Defense Department and the Tenessee Valley Authority to the private
    utilities which supply the nation's light and power.
    They used codes and fictitious names, destroyed communications, and met
    secretly in obscure motels in dozens of cities.  They used an elaborate
    formula known as "phase of the moon" to indicate whose turn it was to
    submit a low bid, and at what price, on major contracts.  All the companies
    and individuals pleaded guily or no contest (the latter to protect higher-
    ups against unraveling of the conspiracies and to minumize the companies'
    damages, by avoiding trials) to charges that they had conspired over a
    seven year period (one of the eight conspiracies was 25 years old and
    some others had lasted over 10 years) to fix prices and rig bids in the
    sale of over seven billion worth of heavy electrical equipment.  Ever hear
    of the Sherman Act?  How about the Clayton Act?

    You have your causal relations reversed.  OF COURSE these companies end
    up having power over the government...with all of that money, how could
    things be otherwise?  The same is true of government and police corruption
    where the drug trade is concerned.  They are told, "get in our way and we
    will step on you like a bug, but play along and get rich."

    You can't segregate economic power and political power.  By the time you
    count campaign contributions, advertising, lobbying...not to mention the
    methods which are actually illegal such as bribery and blackmail, big
    business is going to exert a lot of influence.

    Well, now that we have (for the moment) finished shouting at each other
    for the dogmatism and foolishness of each, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed
    the book.  I don't specifically recall the "Master Freddie Jones" part,
    but I'm sure that any anxieties your children might have had were
    quickly alleviated by a nice, pleasant fairy-tale about the honest
    woodcutter and the big, bad lumber inspector.  And it probably solved
    the sleep problem, too.  (sorry, I couldn't resist).  I'll give you
    a call.

    Message: 69095
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Iraq
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 04:58:55

    The latest news is that Iraq will have the capability to build a crude
    nuclear device within two years.  Recent estimates had pegged it at
    something closer to five years --- looks like intelligence gathering has
    been stepped up since the beginning of this conflict.

    This news alone is reason enough for our troops to be over there.

    Message: 69096
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sadamn Hussein
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 05:23:47

     For once I agree with Roger. There should be no dialogue with Hussein until
    every American and European expatriate has been released, and every Iraqi
    soldier and every piece of Iraqi military equipment has been removed from
    Kuwait. Kuwait is no more a part of Iraq than Mexico isour 51st state.

    Message: 69097
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi on Germans
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 07:04:27

    I imagine it would have been pretty hard to 'just say no' during Hitler's
    rise to power way back when eh?

    I think Britian and France did kiss a little A$$ to prevent a war - it
    didn't work though! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69098
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Savage/GCU
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 15:22:55

    By GCU I meant Grand Canyon University, and it's a great school too.
    Even if you look at the prdominant baptist aspect of the school, which
    doesn't bother this catholic jew at all. I really have to say i am impressed
    by the school, everything is well organized and planned, everyone is very
    helpful and friendly. It even made it easy for a bum liike me who's been out
    of school for 12 years to get back into it.

    Message: 69099
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff B.
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 16:08:37

      Egad, my reference to reading to the kids was not a judgement on the book
    in any sense! I was thanking you for its loan and thought you might like to
    know that they found the writing and descriptions interesting enough to
    engage them and keep them awake. Your comeback sounds like you took it as an
    insult to your philosophy.
      I will need to log on from home where I can capture those last 6 messages
    of yours and deal with them at greater length than I can right now (from a
    terminal at my office). I hope we can lower the tone of this discussion to a
    friendly one, I am sure I can.
       You still haven't said how you would propose to deal with oil prices, the
    topic which started this.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 69100
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Rod/Bush
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 16:13:56

      Just as in an election campaign, Bush knows better than to debate unless
    he has more to win by it than to lose.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 69101
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Chrysler
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 17:04:12

    Yeah, but depending on how much it's been bogged down with emissions
    garbage, I bet it goes around the block pretty damn fast.
    (smile)

    Message: 69102
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/germans
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 17:15:03

    Well,  as per the terms of the Versailles Treaty, Germany
    wasn't even supposed to have weapons, but the League of Nations (which was
    pretty feeble) didn't have the fortitude to make them keep the terms, which
    they could have in the beginning. One has to think that the Europeans wanted
    to avoid a war at all costs, getting involved for the most part when it was
    far too late to prevent a war. There would not have been much of a war if
    Germany had been stopped back in the mid 30's when they started getting back
    together. However, since the pacifists of the area had a strong enough voice
    to prevent that, they ensured themselves the very war that they didn't want.
    (They weren't supposed to have armaments, as I understand, until 1934 or
    1935 but they started gathering them somewhat before that was lifted and the
    League of Nations didn't say a word)

    Message: 69103
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/huh?
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 18:04:34

    No, I took it as a friendly, humorous statement, and that was the character
    of my response (re: The Jungle).

    Oil prices...good question.  Not sure that I have any specific remedy in
    mind, other than a healthy kick in the behind from the President.  I think
    that they should be held accountable for the price increases...if a team of
    investigators, independent and governmental, cannot justify them, the oil
    company execs should be brought up on charges of "profiteering" or some
    such.

    Message: 69104
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: fraud in advertising
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 18:17:16

    If we were to enforce laws solely on the generic basis of fraud (and
    coercion) we would need to prosecute just about everyone, because 95% of the
    ads out there are deliberately misleading.  Take those ads about meats which
    are "93% fat free."  Well, that's as measure from weight by volume, not
    caloric content.  Since a given volume of protein weights more than a given
    volume of fat, and since a gram of fat has about twice the calories of a
    gram protein, the actual fat content is considerably higher.

    Message: 69105
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: jeff/velocity
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 20:35:13

    Hmmm. Do you deny that there is an X,Y,Z,T in real space time ?

    Message: 69106
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: bush/starving
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 20:37:16

    Iraqi children. I agree.

    Message: 69107
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Afghaniraqiranistan
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 21:45:31

    Yup, they're always fighting someone.....

    But, the key issue is Iraq's current ability to deploy and employ chemical
    and biological weapons, and Iraq's iminent ability to deploy nuclear
    weapons.

    I remember, when Israel bombed Iraq nuclear weapons facility in 1981, the
    world cried out their disapproval.  It's always nice to be right in the end,
    but wouldn't it be even better if people would have more sense.

    But I guess, this quote sums it all up: "Evil will triumph, because good is
    stupid!".

    Michael "I'm the NRA, and keeping my guns close" Kielsky

    Message: 69108
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Economics/Beck
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 21:55:13

    I am very confused.  Since when is a central authority, which may indeed
    have good intentions, able to better direct extremely diverse and complex
    economic activity better, or even more equitably, than the individuals who
    are directly involved in the economic exchanges.

    Jeff Beck, I would suggest that you read one of the 'bibles' of free market
    economics, a book called "The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich A. Hayek.  He is
    a Nobel Prize winner in Economics, and wrote this book in the 1940s, talking
    about the dangers of socialism, fascism, and government controls of the
    economy.  He is from the Austrian school of economics, a school which
    includes others such as Ludwig von Mises.  You might be interested in
    subscribing to a free monthly publication relating to economic freedom, by a
    group called F.E.E. (Foundation for Economic Education).  Their founder,
    Leonard Reed, was a follower of Ludwig von Mises, and his thoughts of
    economic freedom.  It would certainly be worth your time, or even anyone
    elses, to investigate and read their ideas about economic freedom.

    Write to F.E.E. at:

    Foundation for Economic Education
    Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533

    or call (914) 591-7230    You won't be disappointed, only more educated.
    Michael "I'm the F.E.E." Kielsky

    Message: 69109
    Author: Ed Sheridan
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: War
    Date: 08/31/90  Time: 23:48:53

    Hi Rod ,I just got back from the Euphrates where I discovered that the war
    was started by Motorola. Yes it's true, they told Hussein they would put a
    tracer in the American aircraft so if he would start a war, then when he
    shoots down our aircraft we will have to build more; so Motorola will give
    10% of the profits from increased production to him. Hussein in turn will
    agree to buy pink pajamas from Motorole's subsidiary clothing plant in Lower
    Greasewood, Arizona.*

    Message: 69110
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: michael/afghiraq
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 00:10:42

    Evil will triumph because good is naive and idealistic and just plain
    doesn't recognize situations where the end will justify the means...

    Message: 69111
    Author: Mike Darus
    Category: War!
    Subject: Bush's Real Intentio
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 00:40:19

    1>  Iraq will not start a war by invading Saudi Arabia.
         Contrary to popular propaganda, Iraq never intended to keep going
    2>  As time goes on, Bush will be under more pressure to do something,
        anything with all those troops.
    3>  Bush can not just push the button.  He must have justification to
        invade.  If he just goes in, he will lose his support.
    4>  If Hussein makes no dumb mistakes, (I doubt he will) any reason will do.

    5>  Hussein will not voluntarily pull out of Kuwait.  His people are so
        that they will starve rather than capitulate.
    Therefore....... I predict conflict over something fabricated or stupid.

    P>S> This is late night rambling, not political savy.
     ^^^Mike Darus^^^

    Message: 69112
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/coordinates
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 01:52:25

    Yes.  There is no Cartesian sub-space grid.  We overlay space
     with one in our mathematical models of space.  A point defined
    by *any* coordinate system, Cartesian, Gaussian, or otherwise, is a purely
    geometric entity, because it is zero dimensional, and there are no zero
    dimensional real entities.  There are no tangent lines in real space,
    because all lines, whether rectilinear or curvilinear are one dimensional,
    and there are no one dimensional real (physical) entities.  There are no
    real entities correspondig to planar figures either, for similar reasons.

    Message: 69113
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Kielsky
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 02:07:20

    By the same token, I suppose you would argue that we should have no central
    authorities whatsoever.  We should disband the federal government, get rid
    of our army, etc.  Also, we should not have criminal laws because the courts
    are not directly involved in social exchanges and the individuals are better
    suited to solve their own problems?  Central authority or local authority,
    someone has to create and enforce laws to protect people from predatory
    practices, whether those practices consist of physical assault or economic
    fraud.  A central authority has the advantage of the big picture, that's
    all.

    My beef with the federal business laws involving anti-trust laws, consumer
    protection laws, other market controls, is that the laws either have no
    teeth or are not properly enforced.

    Personally, I would like to see a flat tax rate of 10 percent -- no
    exemptions, no special deals for anyone, including business.  The only
    exception would be for those below the poverty line.  I would like to see
    the defense contractors, along with their defense department cronies,
    crushed to death under a pile of $50.00 hammers.
    I would like to see plea bargaining made illegal.
    I would like to see the capital punishment laws properly applied and
    enforced, and also expanded.
    I would like to see patrons of the arts pay for the arts; not our tax
    dollars.  I would like to see advertising laws sharpened and strengthened...

    Message: 69114
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Well...
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 04:15:02

    ...I guess today's the day of the Big Announcement.

    Message: 69115
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad Max
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 08:25:50

    AHA! I had forgotten that Grand Canyon achieved university status a couple
     years ago. Good choice! I understand that they are very academic oriented,
    as opposed to athletic oriented, which, in my opinion, is the downfall of
    many colleges and universities. Best of everything in your educational
    future.

    Message: 69116
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 08:32:32

     A flat tax rate?
    Illegal plea bargaining?
    Applied capital punishment?
    No tax dollars to support private enterprise? Especially the "arts"?
     I KNEW we must have SOMETHING in common!
    Way to go, Mark!

    Message: 69117
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff/obtuse
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 11:18:11

    I don't think you understand. Do you agree that there is a point
    X,Y,Z,T in space-time? Let me give you a not so hypothetical example:
    At precisely 10:03:03 AM MST June 1, 1990, the two cars hit each other
    at the intersection of Central and McDowell.
    X = 0, Y = 1 mile, Z = 0, T = June 1, 1990, 10:03:03 MST

    Message: 69118
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/debate
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 20:43:46

    Bush could show the world what a clever and intelligent diplomat he is.  He
    could gain the support of all those who are just now starting to picket
    around the nation just by having us hear what a dork this guy Hussein is.

    What is he afraid of?  Something to hide?  It sure seems that way to me and
    I am surely not a singular incident.

    I would more than love to hear what both Bush and Hussein had to say for
    themselves.  At least then I would understand the problem about 100% better
    than I do now.

    Well, I guess it takes a real man to stand up to some common Arab terrorist
    and it appears that Bush just doesn't have it.

    Message: 69119
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Iraq
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 20:50:58

    If every piece of military equipment is removed from Iraq then Iran will
    slaughter them, men, women AND children.

    But of course, I forgot, the world policemen, the U.S. will again give
    military assistance to Iraq and we may throw in a few nuclear weapons to
    tide them over.

    Of course our blockcade of Iraq is hurting the innocent people in both Iraq
    and Kuwait but then again most people have a hard time believing that there
    could be innocents in an Arabic country.  They do have dark skin and speak a
    funny language, don't they?

    I've heard it said that Arabs are different in that they aren't afraid to
    die and all are terrorists at heart.  They don't feel pain as well as
    happiness or sadness as Americans do.

    Message: 69120
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean Hathaway/debate
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 20:54:06

    Spoken like a true man.  Your answer to my debate question is the only good
    answer I've received.  Everyone else is just making excuses as to why Bush
    can't debate some so-called scum of the earth.

    Thank you, thank you.  You win the prize and will be receiving it in the
    mail within the month.  No joke.

    Message: 69121
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Iraq.U.S. economy
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 21:05:09

    The failures of the S & L's mean that each American will have to cough up
    about $4,000 and that figure somehow keeps rising.  I strongly suspect that
    everytime a law firm figures how much it will cost us then their fee is
    added on and that raises the total which then must be refigured.  It is a
    vicious loop.  But of course, President Bush's son is in the law firm and he
    has many cousins and friends.  And we already know that the President
    himself would NEVER profit from this mess, oh no.

    Which is getting to my point.  Bush has sent all this military gear over to
    the Middle East.  Bush will, mark my words, tell us next that the reason the
    U.S. is entering a recession (depression) is because of Saddam Hussein and
    not because of any old S & L problems.  No, it was the military action that
    is responsible for our economic troubles and has NOTHING to do with Neal
    Bush or any of his other close friends.  Screw you, American people.

                                    Rod

    Message: 69122
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/Germany
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 21:17:40

    My understanding at this time is that pre-Hitler Germany was starving.  I
    mean that just to have a potato and a pat of butter meant that you were
    RICH.

    At that point in ANY countries history there will be hungry people who will
    speak up and call for change.  Hitler may have been the loudest or perhaps
    what he was proposing in those early days was the most logical but he did
    gain the support of followers.

    He did put everyone to work and he did feed everyone far better than he
    initially promised.

    Germany had a few good years and then everything fell apart.  I suspect that
    it was from Hitler having a chemical imbalance from lack of nurishment in
    those early years.

    It was a country gone mad, that's for sure but you try to starve an entire
    country and watch what happens.  We (U.S. Government) just may be doing that
    to Iraq/Kuwait.  You know, if you make a peaceful, normally intelligent man
    thirsty by witholding water then he will quickly turn into a raving lunatic
    and will be willing to kill you or anyone else for a sip.  Withholding food
    takes a little longer for the same results, about 30-60 days depending on
    existing supplies.

    Message: 69123
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: school
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 21:27:46

    Thank you paul, they do have intermural sport, but yes they are very
    academicly oriented. I guess I'll see how it goes for the next four years,so
    far I have nothing to complain about (darn,grin).
    later.

    Message: 69124
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pre-war germany
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 21:44:39

    Well me being german, I have to give my two cents worth.
    Even though I wasn't there, I heared enough from my mother and my
    grandparents, to say it is first ahnd testamony.
    For starters, aroungd the time the americans considered to be the swinging
    20's, germany was not really starving, but they had a major case of
    inflation, my grandfather was telleing me that to go buy a loaf of bread you
    had to carry in a suitcase full of money, we're talking millions of marks.
    Inflation during some months was as I understood it around a 1000% a month.
    That did not come from a lack of production, but from the post WWI debt that
    germany had aquired, (ie. repayments to the winners of WWI). These payments
    were at the time more than the german economy could handle. My grandfather
    also told me that hitler promissed every german a job, as place to live and
    food to eat, and the amazing thing is he delivered. Not only that, with his
    speaches, he inspired the germans of that time to be prowed again, something
    that germans very badly needed to hear in those days. The final solution was
    something that did not start till the late 30's, and the persecusion of the
    jews was a gradual and slow thing, something that went on in the background
    for most germans. It did however come to a peak in aug 1933 with the
    Kristall nacht, that infamous night were the nsdap destroyed and plunder
    jewish synagogs and buisnesses. (NSDAP= National Sozalistche Deutche
    Arbeiter Partei      National socialist german workers party). Shortly after
    that hitler took control of the reichstag( german congress) legally because
    of the failing health of then Reichsprasident Weimar. By german constitution

    Which was severly flawed, hitler in efect became the president, the vice
    president, the speaker of the house and congress, and national party leader.
    Now this is put into terms an american could understand. This all happened
    because of a loophole in the then existing german history. After this had
    happend hitler was legaly speaking the sole ruler of germany. In order to
    sustain that post, he used again a loophole in the german constitution, and
    declared martial law, sowith having to remain the sole ruler of germany till
    he lifted it, somethiong that never did occur. Now, hitler was the law.
    Todays german constitution is very closly modeled after the american
    constitution, to prevent such things from happening again. Now I do not know
    if they will rewrite this because of recent happenings, but from what I read
    in german newspapers that my mother sends me, the east germans are just
    going to adapt the west german constitution, to be on the safe side.
    since I am runnign out of time now, anyone intersted in this, let me know,
    and I will gladly keep on posting on this suject.

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