### Apollo BBS Archive - July 26, 1990

    Message: 4034
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Beyond...
    Subject: Good Morning
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 11:50:47

    I dream of hands,  warm hands, touching my body, their fingers whispering
    "we love you."  I feel my body tingle and the juices in my walls of my well
    begin to moisten my awaking mound.
    I awaken to the nuzzle of my love.  His hand presses gently on my smooth
    stomach.  I stretch and roll into his arms, careful not let his touch escape
    me.  His fingers caress lightly as I move. His hand begins to tempt me as I
    squirm and it moves slowly down my body: over my soft breasts, round my ass,
    tickling my inner thighs.  His fingers now whisper; "touch me, want me, love
    me".  My body moves with his hand,  my back arching to reach his touch.  He
    grabs hold of my back and brings a breast to his warm mouth.  He drowns in
    my bosom and his hand jolts to my swollen, wet core.  I cry out in surprise.
    He quickly quiets me with his grinning mouth.  His tongue and fingers seem
    in unison as they dart and circle inside of my warm and wet tunnels.  I
    reach over and grab his long erection and now he that gasps and I who grins.
    I lick my hand, sliding it over the top of his head and down his thick shaft
    massaging on the way to his balls.  We continue touching and kissing, our
    breathing becoming rapid.
    He whispers in my ear,
    "Good morning, Love.  Are you awake?"
    I answer him dreamily,
    "Yes.   God, yes.   Please, don't stop"

    He flips me over onto my stomach and holds me tightly around my waist from
    behind. He pulls me back to him with his warm hands on my hips. He wets his
    fingers and brings them to my breasts, lightly tickling my nipples.  I feel
    his cock pressing against the outside of my wanting pussy. I welcome him in,
    his hands digging into the sides of my ass.  I push back onto his stiff rod,
    filling me completely.  He begins to thrust hard, hitting that spot deep in
    side me.  I begin to feel that rising feeling in my stomach.
    The heat of my whole mound is making my clitoris ache for his touch.  He
    brings down one hand and rubs it lightly.  I begin to moan louder with each
    entry.  I turn my head to kiss his wet lips but can not reach him.  He
    teases me then, licking my cheek and ear.
    "Oh Babe,  please kiss me..." I plead as his thrusts begin to pick up speed.
    I feel my oncoming orgasm racing outward from my pelvis and spread out in a
    spiral, like a pinwheel moving in slow motion as it spins in the wind of the
    Ferris Wheel.  He stops suddenly, aware from my shaking legs that I am close
    to a release.  Again his flips me over, this time to my back.  He is facing
    me and his eyes bore into mine, past my pupils, searching for me.
    "I do love you,"  he says.  I am about to reply when he lays his mouth
    onto mine.  He lifts my hips up to his and glides himself into my gripping
    well.  His enlarged, creamy head stretches my tight skin and I can feel it
    being pulled back as he enters, exposing my own erection.

    With every inch I feel myself tighten.  Deeper and deeper he goes inside.
    until it seems he will never stop.  Then he kisses my neck and slowly begins
    his retreat. I feel every vein in his steal-hard cock as he slides it slowly
    out of me and then enters me again. I feel every bit of flesh in myself give
    way to him as he pushes futher into my hot cunt.  My skin feels electric,
    sending waves through my body when his touch meets mine.  I sit up in his
    lap.  I kiss him as he gently continues to rock me back and forth on his
    him as he gently continues to rock me back and forth on his hardness.  I
    hardness.  I feel the rising again slowly building and building and...
    the rising again slowly building and building and building...
    "Oh God, I can't hold back any longer," I moan.
            "Then don't," he allows.
    He pushes me back on the bed, falling on top me.  He picks up speed and I
    bring down my hand to squeeze my nipples.
    "Come on, babe.  Come on.  Let me make you come, " he whispers in between
    kisses.  He is pounding hard into my well.  I feel him tense and ready
    himself.
    "Oh man, Babe, oh man, I'm going to come," I warn.
    "Yes!  Yes, love, let it all go," he demands.

    He holds on to my ass and pulls me in deeper.  His thrusts hit me deep and
    pulls bac the skin of my clit, allowing it to be rubbed by his balls as they
    brush against my inner thighs.  My body takes over my mind and I let lose,
    screaming as I explode in vibrant colors, the pinwheel spinning furiously
    through my torso.  He moans loudly as he releases his warm, sweet love into
    me.  He continues to pump his hips as we wind down our rhythm, slowly
    reaching a halt.
    He collapses on top of me as we try to regain our breath.  The sun comes
    streaming through the stained glass window and colors dance on the floor.
    The alarm comes on then and we giggle at its late attempt to wake us.
            "Good morning, love," he smiles.    "Ready for work?"
            "No," I sigh, kissing him again.
            "But I'm ready for round two..."

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 67861
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod on $tatus
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 07:55:19

            I said in my post..only NON-$tatus users qualify for the Bill
    Burkett $tatus Grant.  So forget it!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67862
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliffy on GT
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 08:20:07

    There may be an outside chance that we have to go to Havasu and Needles on
    business this week end - but if not, both Whitey and I will be there. That's
    all you need is one more! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67863
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Public/private
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 08:33:57

    For the most part I do not believe in sending kids to private schools,
    specially the Christian kind. Mainly because three of my grand children went
    to one. Yes, they were taught better  - the teachers took more time with
    each student, etc. etc. But it only went to the 8th grade and then the kids
    had to go to public school - the real world! Then their grades fell mainly
    because sports was pushed on them to the hilt. Also, all three of them went
    against religion in general.
    Re: Catholic school - which I went to as a child - I'm not for that either.
    It wasn't the religion that kept us in tow, it was the discipline and it was
    severe!! I don't believe religion belongs in a schools anymore than an
    extreme amount of sports does.
    Trouble with sending the kiddies to private schools of anykind - it's not
    the real world in them. Someday they are going to have to go out into the
    world that will be very different than their private world was. Morals,
    religion, manners should be taught at home. That's what parents are for!
                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 67864
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: $Jeff/Book
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 10:09:02

      Thanks, I'll try the Central Branch when I get a chance and see if they
    might have that 'Edsel Affair' book, or know what it is about.
      See You later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 67865
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann/School
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 10:22:43

      What is the proper function of a school, allowing pupils to learn the
    things that will afford them the maximum opportunity for self development in
    later life, or finding out how rotten other schools can be? Keeping kids
    out of a good school because it doesn't degrade them enough to prepare them
    for later schools is an arguement for replacing the later schools, not the
    good school.
      I have some stuff on a project to create new private schools somewhere at
    home. Maybe I will post some of it later.
      See You Later,
       Dean H.

    Message: 67866
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Falcon
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 10:33:08

      I have a lot of fondness and respect for the Falcon. They were highly
    regarded where I come from for their utility and longevity. The first car I
    ever rolled was my father's '63 Falcon Ranchero. Several of my friends are
    still driving those old Falcons we were abusing when I was in high school.
    Having worked on my father's Ranchero before and after rolling it, and
    seeing how easily he was able to get it fixed and running again, made me
    a partisan of Falcons and Fords in general. Falcons are beginning to become
    collector's items now.
       See You Later
         Dean H.

    Message: 67867
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 67865
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 10:48:18

    The Marshall Fritz project?  I think the technique he describes sounds very
    interesting.  I wish that I had had the opportunity to learn in that manner.
       The idea is, basically, that teachers teach the older kids, and the older
    kids teach the younger kids (and thus learn by teaching as well as by being
    taught).  Further, the kids who teach get paid for teaching, with the amount
    determined by how well they do it and how much interest other kids have in
    being taught by them.

    Message: 67868
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GT
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 11:29:25

    Cliff, Rose will be with me.

    Message: 67869
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Better Half
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 12:34:59

    Bonnie is coming with me.

    Message: 67870
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Kids
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 12:41:19

    Re:  "Tyler and Travis are in bed now, so I can't ask them, but they may
    even like the company!!!"

    I can just imagine how excited my 10 and 13 year old would be at the
    possibility of entertaining a 6 year old girl in their room.  Ha!

    I'm sure the girl wouldn't think of it as entertainment.

    Message: 67872
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 12:52:09

    Re:  "If Cliff agrees then perhaps they, your daughter and mine can play
    with Cliff and Sandy's boys in their room."

    Oh my!  Won't Travis and Tyler be so pleased.

    Evidently you guys don't remember what you thought of girls at ages 10 and
    13.

    Give them a break!

    Message: 67873
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Marlin
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 12:55:57

    Re:  "I am moral because I believe I am doing right"

    How do you know what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

    Maybe you got it backwards?

    Message: 67874
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 12:58:40

    Re:  "I attended school from 1948 to 1957 and neither did I note a specific
    message of religion."

    How interesting.  Since no one remembers any specific message of religion,
    why were the atheists so hell bent on getting religion out of the schools?

    Message: 67875
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cars
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 13:47:08

    Sandi - Are you aware that there is a Ford Falcon club in Phoenix?  They may
    be able to assist you if you run into any parts/service problems.  I'll try
    to find out when/where they meet and who to contact.

    On Corvairs - I owned a '60 Monza coupe when it was brand new.  Took
    delivery from the Chev dealer in Seattle, Wa.  Loved the car.  It was all
    red with a white top.  Three speed, small engine.  It handled like a sports
    car and got nearly 30 mpg.

    In 1980 I bought a 60 Monza convertible.  It had been recently rebuilt and
    had a new top.  It too was red, and I thought it was a great car for
    weekends, etc.  I joined the Cactus Corvair club and went on a few outings
    and to a few meetings, but my primary love is Model A Fords, so I sold the
    car to a guy who wanted it more than I did, and spent the money on a '29
    Ford pickup truck.

    I owned a 59 Edsel Ranger for several years, it only had 40,000 miles on it
    (in 1976) and it rode like a Lincoln.  Parts for it all had Mercury part
    numbers.  The only problem I ever had with it was the seals on the power
    steering had dried out, and I had to get the booster rebuilt for a small
    fortune.  Had it done at Sunland Mercury.  Great car.

    I currently own a 1929 Model A Ford Pickup and a 1931 Model A Ford Deluxe
    Coupe.  I have owned Model A Fords since 1954.  Love 'em   ***  Gary  ***

    Message: 67876
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Guest List
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 14:19:23

    Ann Oudin & Hubby
    Beauregard Dog
    Bill Burkett
    Bob Thornburg & Wife
    Daryl Westfall (unsure)
    Dean Hathaway & Wife (I think)
    Gordon Little & Wife?
    James Hawley
    Jeff Beck
    Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
    Kim Paskiewicz
    Melissa Dee
    (( space ))
    Mike Carter & Wife  (Fang)
    Mike Kielsky
    Pat Stoddard
    Paul Savage & Wife
    Ralph Blehm & Wife
    Rod Williams
    Roger Mann & Wife  (@ 8:30)
    Shirley Bear & Friend
    Steven Carls
    Todd Reese                      And just maybe Jack Flash  (hope)
    PLEASE.... If your Spouse is coming, tell me so I can list it!

    Message: 67877
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob T. on 6year olds
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 14:22:06

            Yea, Tyler and Travis are not so keen on the idea...  even to them,
    six is too young..   Give them another 12 years and I bet they change
    their minds.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67878
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Smokers
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 14:25:18

            Just for you, we are setting up a Smoking section in the back yard
    at a table.  And a Spittoon for Annie and Paul  (You do 'chew', don't you)

            Somehow we all will fit... (I hope)  GrIn!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67879
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: religion in schools
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 15:21:08

    What started getting mandatory prayer out of public schools was a Jewish
    family tired of having their children forced to recite Christian prayers.

    Message: 67880
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: Help
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 15:39:23

    Well I need some help or advice, I have an XT with 1 meg, 12mhz, hard drive
    and one floppy, here my question:  I wanted to do some thing with the extra
    memory, so I thought to make it a ramdisk, and I wanted to use dos
    ramdisk.So I put this into my config.sys file, just like the dos book told
    me:  device=c:\dos\ramdrive.sys 360 256 128/e< the book told me that was
                                                   for my extended memory
    Well when I boot up I get the message that the ramdrive is installed, but
    when I want to adress it I get this for a reply:
    Invalid drive specification
    My drives are a: floppy
                  b: floppy
                  c:dos active partition HD
                  d: logical drive HD
                  e: logical drive HD
                  f: floppy
                  g: I thought ramdrive
    the reason I have so many floppies alocatted for just one drive, it makes
    Xcopy easier. I also have this line in my cinfig.sys:
    Last drive=g:
    Well any help on what to do would be appreciated. Thanks

    The Mad Max

    Message: 67881
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cars
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 15:44:02

    My caddie is a beige colored 79 ElDorado, and it costs me $130 a month in
    payments. no garage time since I've had it (9month) It does need new brakes
    now after almost 90000 miles. Thats all the maintenance so far. I'm
    satisfied, and I have never owned a car that pleases me more.And my car does
    give a message, it's one of a kind, I customized it somewhat.
    All I can say is I love my car, and so does every other person do with their
    own car, thats why they own it.
    The Mad Max

    Message: 67882
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cars
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 15:58:18

    I hate my car.  I hate all cars except perhaps the electric models.

    Quote of the day:  "The only good internal combustion engine automobile is
    a dead internal combustion engine automobile."  -Rod Williams

    For every gallon of gas that goes through your automobile's system, 20
    pounds of CO2 is emitted.

    Something to think about sometimes.
    To send mail to operator use
    First name:JEFF
    Last name:BECK
    Send mail to Jeff Beck:Yes

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:It looks at though John is on a sabbatical or something.  He is probably
     2:sitting in his closet saying over and over, it can't be true, it just can't.
     3:
     4:Either that or he wasn't effected at all and is on vacation or something and
     5:will be back to give us more shit later.   -Rod

    Message: 67883
    Author: Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: weirdness
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 16:21:09

    a) How weird? b) What cycle of the moon is this now?

    Message: 67884
    Author: Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: school
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 16:29:05

    I've been in high school slightly more recently than you have and I'm
    puzzled by your comment: "sports was pushed on them to the hilt." Unless
    they were 6'6'' and the basketball team wanted them or leviathons that the
    football team wanted, high school sports don't want you. No one pushes
    sports on anyone except the aforementioned. Either I'm misunderstanding what
    you're saying or either you or your kids were overreacting. Also, what's so
    bad about sports? (I'm biased. I'm a future sports writer.) Sure, there's
    excesses, but when it gets down to it, sports are a relatively harmless
    replacement for normal conflict. I'd rather see two countries fight with
    soccer balls or athletes than soldiers and tanks. However, I do agree with
    you all the way on where morals should be taught.

    Message: 67885
    Author: Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: cars
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 16:49:34

    I'll admit that on occasion I feel a slight amount of guilt driving my old
    car which pollutes a lot more than a new one would...for whatever reason, I
    got perversely attached to my little old Falcon and I'd never trade it...but
    for me, cars are a lot more than pollution makers. To me, a car is not only
    freedom, but a symbol of going~r somewhere. Sure, you could get out and go
    somewhere by walking or taking a bus, but that just doesn't cut it. At two
    AM, when you feel isolated from all civilization and you suddenly have this
    urge to get up and drive to LA or whereever, if you have a car, you can. (I
    usually just drive across town) If you're going down the street, and you
    suddenly want to climb a mountain on the other side of town in the middle of
    the night, a car is your only option. It's hard to explain fully, but
    there's something almost mystical about the need and satiation of going
    someplace. (Also, if you happen to run into some baddies out there in
    civilization, your only shot for survival lies in how well your car can get
    you out of there...and that's only half a joke nowadays in this city, let me
    tell you.)

    Message: 67886
    Author: Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: schools
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 17:00:21

    As a recent veteran of regular public school and a current victim in the
    mousetrap of college, I have almost come to the conclusion that school has
    done very little for me, but it is not the fault of the schools I attended.
    I'm going to waste the next year of my life going to school(though at least
    since I have a full scholarship, it's free) when I could go out tomorrow and
    write as good a news story as I would then. Basically, I could've written
    just as good a story two years ago or four years ago; I look back on English
    compositions and the only difference between my writing ability then and now
    is a few years of experience. This is not the fault of public schools, and
    private (or better public) schools would not have magically made me a
    better writer. In fact, I believe more and more all the time that the last
    fifteen years of school has been a monumental waste of my time. I learned
    what I know on my own, and I feel that many other students feel the same
    way. So if you choose to, you can develop yourself perfectly well in a bad
    school or even in no school. So if not to learn, then what is school for? To
    teach you about life, to give you a chance to get that experience I spoke
    of. As a senior in high school I had the ability to write however well I can
    now, but there was nothing other than time and the hundreds of pages I've
    written since then that could teach me. What I'm ultimately getting at here
    is that if you put your kids in a fake world of some sort of private
    school(no name calling here, I'm not talking about any particular sort), you
    are taking away the one thing that school can do for them.
    By the way, as a side note on my morals, they are very simple: I cause no
    harm to anyone who hasn't harmed me, and I feel that that is right.

    Message: 67887
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: cars
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 19:01:56

    I can never understand these people who think that Public Transportation is
    the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Some people even live in cities
    where they have to use it all the time because of either traffic congestion
    or lack of parking.  I will use subways myself in certain cities where they
    are much faster than surface travel, or parking is a severe problem, but I
    just cannot see public transportation as a "lifestyle".

    Consider: if you use public transportation you have to wait for the
    conveyance to arrive, instead of going when YOU want to.  You can't just
    sling loads of shopping into a bus the way you do with a car, and then go
    back and do some more -- because the bus won't be there when you get back.
    (Mind you, if you live in Boston your car may not be there when you get back
    either.)  You can also keep all kinds of junk handy in your car.  You are
    guaranteed a seat in your car.  You do not have to put up with obnoxious,
    smelly, or potentially dangerous fellow-passengers in your car.  Your car
    doesn't keep stopping in places where you don't want to get off.  Your car
    won't kick you off if you forgot to put money in your pocket.  Your car
    takes you from door to door, twenty-four hours a day.

    A taxi will do some of these things also, but besides being expensive, you
    still can't "browse" a place at will with anything except your own car.  You
    have to know where you're going before you go.  About the only advantage to
    public transportation is that you can read the paper while traveling.
    If you can keep it from jiggling around, that is.

    Message: 67888
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: The Snack Treats
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 20:06:09

            3 lb 8 oz of Planters Cocktail Peanuts
            3 lb of Caramel Corn
            2 lb of M&M Plain Chocolate Candies
            1 14 oz box of RITZ bits MiniRITZ Crackers

            If everyone who said they were coming, show up, that will be
    10 Peanuts, 6 M&Ms, 1 handful Caramel Corn and 2 RITZ crackers per person!

            Just kidding....   looking forward to the ... crowd!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67889
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Lippard!
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 20:07:42

            I see you have been on the board this week.... (a Lot), are you
    coming to the party Saturday night?   I thought you were only going to be
    here last weekend, but you still seem to be posting?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 67890
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: So cliff
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 20:34:37

    why don't you let us all bring some sort of junk food?  It's Apollo's
    birthday!  We all can bring something as sort of a present!
    Besides, you don't have any Doritos.

    Message: 67891
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: my age
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 21:37:56

    Twenty-six tomorrow.

    Message: 67892
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/catholic school
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 21:50:45

    Why did you go to a catholic school ?

    Message: 67893
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: lippard/science
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 21:52:35

    Or at least it gets closer to the truth than any other system.

    Message: 67894
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Melissa Dee
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 22:13:21

            Darn, I forgot the Doritos....  Okay Melissa... You are the
    official Apollo Doritos Lady!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
                            That was easy...pass the buck!

    Message: 67895
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 23:34:23

    I am curious, is Christian following in your wife's footsteps and breast
    feeding her baby?

    Message: 67896
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 67889
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 23:44:58

    I'm going back to Tucson tomorrow.  I'd like to attend the GT, but I've got
    other stuff I've already committed to in Tucson.

    Message: 67897
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Saturday
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 23:56:29

    Jane and I will both be coming; our neighbor said she would look after
    Sarah.

    See you all there.

    Message: 67898
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 07/26/90  Time: 23:57:28

       > ...sports are a relatively harmless replacement for normal conflict.
       > I'd rather see two countries fight with soccer balls...  than soldiers
       > or tanks.

    Only if neither of the countries is Britain.

    On another topic you raised, I wouldn't write school off as a complete waste
    of your time, even if you *felt* that you didn't learn much there.  Even if
    you consider only the particular skill of writing, writing is like any other
    skill in that it improves through practice.  Having to do something you
    might not think useful or interesting, like writing a history essay or
    reading a book on philosophy, is adding just a little bit to your ability as
    a writer every time you do it.

    Of course, you may well have done a lot of reading and writing at home on
    your own initiative.  Lots of people wouldn't, so school is a necessary
    discipline for them.  But even when you do, it is still useful to read and
    write about a broad range of topics -- some of which you might otherwise
    have avoided as boring or useless -- because it does help to round out your
    skills, vocabulary, and knowledge.  I've found that the older I get, the
    more apparently unrelated pieces of learning seem to slip into place to form
    a related and coherent body of knowledge about the universe.  And knowledge
    always sticks better when it is connected to something else.

    I do feel, though, that schools might try harder to show kids why they ought
    to be interested in a subject, or how it relates to anything that is
    important to them.  One subject I hated, for the most part, was geography.
    Now I enjoyed physical geography and geology (as most kids seemed to),
    because it fits in with a related body of science about the material world
    that can be understood as a whole, and because it is relevant to the things
    we see around us -- mountains, rivers, rocks and so forth.  No, it was those
    boring lists of countries and those interminable catalogues of imports and
    exports that turned me off.  It seemed to be disembodied knowledge that had
    no significance because it wasn't tied in to anything else important --
    history or politics or economics or anything like that.

    I remember how this struck me once when we were going through some stuff
    about the fishing industry in Norway.  The teacher (oh, yes, that's the
    other thing -- why is it that *all* geography teachers are so bad-tempered?)
    put up a slide projector and showed some graphs and some slides of dockyards
    and fish processing factories.  Then, suddenly, there was this photograph of
    women working on an assembly line, canning sardines.  It struck me almost as
    a shock.  There were actually *human beings* involved in this process.  It
    was all about PEOPLE after all.  People, like science or mountains, are
    something I know about.  But it was surely significant that a vision of a
    real live human being was so rare in these classes, even in the imagination.
    This curriculum at least failed to make the learning seem important by
    connecting it to anything.

    Message: 67900
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: ...in schools
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:00:31

    I agree with Ann that it is the oppressive and punitive atmosphere in
    certain types of school that makes them bad for kids, and not the teaching
    of religion.  This is true in the wider world also.  The Constitutional
    basis for rejecting religion in schools is the prohibition on establishing a
    "state religion", and this in turn is because the Founding Fathers knew that
    religion had been used as the *pretext* for a great deal of oppression and
    massacre in the past, and didn't want it to happen in America.  If they
    could see Ireland, Iran and Iraq, India and Pakistan today they would have
    no reason to change their minds.

    Nobody minded too much about religion in schools as long as there was a
    large consensus in favor of one particular religion, and it is no doubt the
    cultural diversity of immigrants, and a carryover from the general principle
    of concern for minorities, that has led to the present stringent bans on
    religion in schools.  It's unfortunate that people can't be a bit more
    reasonable and sensitive to one another's concerns, because I see no harm
    (at least) in dealing with the subject of religion in schools.  But people
    always seem to go overboard one way or the other.  Once religion gets a foot
    in the door, there is this enormous fear that it will be used to oppress
    people in some way, or to mark out one group of people as "different" (and
    therefore inferior).  So we go overboard in the other direction instead, and
    I must confess it does seem irritating to me when some group kicks up a
    quite unnecessary legal fuss because some town wants to spend money on
    Christmas decorations that the vast majority of people would enjoy, and none
    of the others would actually be harmed by.  But Christmas, of course, is a
    RELIGIOUS festival!

    It is an interesting contrast to note that the teaching of religion is (or
    at least was) *mandatory* in British schools.  If it is still true -- and I
    would think it is, because it is tied in with British constitutional
    principles like the Queen being the Defender of the (Anglican) Faith and so
    on -- then the decline of ethical behavior and the rise of crime in Britain,
    which parallels that in the U.S., cannot be blamed on the lack of religious
    teaching in schools.

    In my time at least there was not the same problem with Jewish kids being
    forced to recite Christian prayers, because while the *offering* of religion
    was mandatory, individuals of other faiths (including Catholics) could opt
    out.  Religion was not taught as something you had better accept or else.
    Rather, it was taught as if there were an implicit understanding that the
    kids already subscribed to the Protestant Christian faith, but it was an
    understanding that was never explicitly questioned or challenged, either by
    the teachers or by the kids.  For those who did not believe, I suppose there
    would be a sort of mutual contract of silence.  If a kid was willing to go
    into the weekly Religious Instruction class and process the subject matter
    as if it *could* be true, no teacher would try to trip him up or victimize
    him by branding him a heathen.

    I only saw this unspoken agreement fall down once.  About the age of
    sixteen, we did some classes on comparative religion.  (One of the teachers
    quipped that this was not intended to make us "comparatively religious").
    There was an exchange between a red-haired fellow named Keith Bain and the
    teacher, a slightly hysterical old maid named Marge Starmer.  It was unclear
    quite how it started, but she asked a very fundamental question about "why
    do we have religion?"  She called on him for an answer, and he didn't answer
    right away.  He looked a bit disconcerted.  Then she addressed him again and
    he blurted out something about "so that we think we've got somewhere to go
    after we die."  They had a very short and confused exchange of words that
    culminated in her sending him out of the room.  She complained because he
    hadn't answered her to begin with.  He said he hadn't answered her because
    she addressed him by the wrong name (Baines, rather than Bain).  But it was
    very clear to me that she had allowed herself to be annoyed by his answer.

    Interestingly, there isn't any of the same controversy about creationism and
    evolution in England that there is in the U.S.  Geologic history and
    paleontology were the subject of a BBC radio program ("programme"!) for
    schools that we listened to as part of the primary school curriculum.  I
    remember hearing about the Trilobites from the age of six or seven.  Nobody
    seemed to have any problem reconciling that with religious teaching,
    although it might appear to be a prodigious exercise in doublethink.

    It's a political impossibility to get religion taught in schools, but I see
    no reason at all why there shouldn't be some secular treatment of the
    subject of ethics.  As far as I know there isn't much, except in some
    experimental programs here and there which seem to have been successful.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the home is the major influence, but too
    many homes are a downright bad influence.  If kids don't have ethical and
    humanitarian behavior demonstrated around them, at least we might be able
    to start them thinking about the possible benefits of these things.

    Message: 67904
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Smitty's
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:10:49

    According to the New Times which I've just seen, the entire story of the
    witness Bob Hess was a fabrication.  This does leave open the question of
    whether excessive force was used, but the most serious allegation printed in
    the New Times was that the Arizona Republic reporter (I think his name was
    something like "Kopp" -- I don't have the paper here) was pretty well aware
    that the Hess story about Smitty's employees "putting the boot in" was
    unreliable before he allowed it to go to press.  Needless to say, the
    Republic itself hasn't addressed this issue.  My mind is also boggling at
    the fact that the Republic is continuing to carry giant full-page ads for
    Smitty's while simultaneously printing pointed anti-Smitty's cartoons on the
    editorial page.

    Message: 67905
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/puzzle pieces
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:18:55

    I know what you mean.  Every time I see Don Knotts' right nostril, I think
    of Irving Berlin, anchovies, and quasi-stellar objects.  In ten more years,
    I'll be able to derive the second law of thermodynamics from reruns of
    Three's Company.  Integral knowledge is SCARY.

    Message: 67906
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/sardines
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:20:39

    No, it's all done by robots these days.  Know anything about robots?

    Message: 67907
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hans/breast feeding
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:42:47

    You bet.  For sure dude.  She is giving that little baby of hers some really
    fine mothers milk.  And that is all they need for the first six months of
    their life.  Then comes the pork and beans and steak (kidding).

    The answer is yes.

    Message: 67908
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/Gordon/cars
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:48:45

    There was an interesting letter to the editor in this weeks Az. Republic
    concerning a fellow with an emissions machine and an old car.

    He stated that after tuning his old car and checking it on the machine,
    posting all of the results, that it gave off less pollutants than his
    mothers newer style auto.  It's been a few days since scanning that article
    but it basically said what I have repeated.

    And I am also for the personal automobile although while living in New
    Orleans for six years I did very much enjoy riding the trolley cars.  They
    were more fun than driving.

    I am for the development and mass production of the all electric auto which
    by the way is right around the corner, so to speak.  I believe that in the
    next five years we will see more and more of them, at least I surely hope
    so.

    Message: 67909
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/moon
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 00:49:23

    The moon is still a sliver in the sky.  Stick around.

    Message: 67910
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 01:03:40

    I enjoyed reading your posts on religion.  I basically agree.

    From my understanding, from what I have heard and read, the basic argument
    against religious themes during certain holidays is that the funds for them
    come from the taxpayers.  Of course I am talking only about those on a
    government level, city, county, state, national.

    A person can use their own funds and their own property to erect whatever
    theme they desire as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others
    in some way.

    And I do believe that an adult who teaches a minor that eternal punishment
    awaits for not believing a certain way should be put away for treatment.

    I would like your opinion of this last statement of mine.  What think ye?

    Message: 67911
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 01:05:14

    Since you are a newcomer and have displayed logical thought processes then I
    would ask the same of you as I did of Gordon in my previous message to him.

    Message: 67912
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi/sports
    Date: 07/27/90  Time: 01:12:15

    I think sports are fun especially taking part in, and for the most part
    I guess that some high school sports are okay.

    But when it comes to professinal sports then I am saddened by the
    corporation looking after the profit and not after the player.  I wonder
    what it is like having a knee, elbow or other injury for the rest of ones
    life?

    It would appear that professional athletes are far removed from the dirt lot
    game of having fun for the sake of it.

    Show me a professional athlete that is without long lasting injuries and
    I'll show you a bench warmer or waterboy.

    Of course I could be wrong in my assessment and you may be able to shed some
    light, ergo the reason for this message.   Thanks.

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