### Apollo BBS Archive - August 29, 1990

    End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 1432
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/1429
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 17:31:27

    I like that imagery -- a "pissing contest" between the gods...who pisses
    more forcefully, Jehovah, Allah, Shiva...what about Thor?  Those beer
    swilling Norsemen can piss gallons.  Too bad we couldn't view it on a CBS
    sports spectacular...those gods would look awfully silly covered with each
    other's piss, and we might take them less seriously.  What does Zen say
    about the art of pissing?  "The successful pisser does not piss; he becomes
    piss."  Well, maybe not.

    Message: 1433
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: War
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 20:22:41

    I know (well, indirectly) at least four people who might have to be sent out
    .  Pretty strange.  I hadn't been paying as much attention to what was
    happening since I was lost in the ASU universe for the last week.  So far it
    looks like the US is handling everything well.  It's tense but at least we
    aren't being pulled around by the balls (can I say that on here?)

    Message: 1434
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last/balls
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 20:56:52

    Well, you can say it... but I thought that America was a female nation?
    Perhaps hermaphrodite?

    Message: 1435
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: balls
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 00:37:13

    No Melissa, you cannot say balls on this sig, neither can you say
    cocksucker.  Got that.

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69005
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/middle east
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 13:40:58

    Yes, but with those countries (don't forget about the United Arab
    Emirates...if someone was going to go to the effort to grab Saudi Arabia
    that would be a glittering prize of a tiny country that can't defend itself)
    he would have all the more money and economic control. Plus, if everyone
    left and it was back to business as normal, the Arabs would kiss and make up
     especially if the alternativ~re was siding with the US...

    Message: 69006
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann/war
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 14:14:36

    The reason many people are reacting very strongly to this incident is
    because it has a much more dangerous spectre in the not too distant future
    than $2 a gallon for gas. In Hussein, we're talking about a dictator,
    apparently very popular with his own people, and possibly charismatic enough
    to appeal to other Arab countries. He wants to expand. He already has the
    number 4 army in the world...ahead of places like England, France and
    Germany. If left alone, he could easilly surpass this country in sheer
    weaponry...we're just one step up the ladder.
    Do you like the thought of an unstable country like Iraq being a world
    power? You can't reason with them, diplomacy will get you nowhere. How about
    the idea of Iraq with tactical nuclear weapons? Unlike the old superpowers,
    the US and the USSR, both of whom were too cautious and self-concerned to
    actually do anything more than dance around, the Iraqi leaders wouldn't
    hesitate for a minute to start a nuclear conflict. Remember, we're talking
    about people(at least the ones who make the decisions) who don't care about
    human life and for whom martyrdom is noble thing. Right now, the amassed
    world should make short work out of putting Hussein back into his country
    where he belongs. That might not be so easy if he gets a little more money
    power and weapons.
    And he already doesn't like Americans. That's enough to make the other Arabs
    kiss and make up no matter what he inflicts on them.
    Cheery possibilities, huh?

    Message: 69007
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ann/superpower
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 14:36:06

    I guess we need a definition of super-power. What is a superpower. A
    superpower doesn't have to worry about anybody beating it up except another
    superpower.

    Message: 69008
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Melissa/ASU
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 17:01:50

    Please elaborate.

    Message: 69009
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/ME
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 17:16:30

    Interesting stats, Rod.  But some of your conclusions are pretty weak.  You
    say that "it doesn't make any sense for Iraq to attack Kuwait and head for
    Saudi Arabia, because Iran is the common enemy of the three."
    But that's exactly what happened.  No doubt the press can and does pull the
    wool over our eyes on some occasions, but do you really think it's
    reasonable to conclude that there has been no invasion of Kuwait, and that
    Iraq has had no designs on Saudi oil?

    Hussein has loyalty to no one.  He has no respect for Islam, and his prime
    motives are to gain (and abuse) power, control as much money as possible,
    and step on anyone who gets in his way.  If you can't see this, given the
    fact that, as you yourself admit, Hussein repayed massive Kuwaiti economic
    support during the Iran-Iraq war with invasion, pillage, and murder, then
    perhaps you don't need the press to pull the wool over your eyes.

    BTW, I saw an interview of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak (or however he
    spells...we spell...his name), with Dan Rather, and Mubarak kept calling
    Iraq "Iran".  I guess us westerners aren't the only ones who get the two
    confused.

    Message: 69010
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/seven messages
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 17:19:46

    I'll get back to you.

    Message: 69011
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/T-shirts
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 17:21:13

    Here's one for you:

    "Just say NO to oil!"

    Message: 69012
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JB/ ASU
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 20:30:59

    Well, it took me two hours to get a parking decal for a lot that is about a
    mile from my first class, I stayed on campus after my 10:40 class to wait
    for my 6:40 Spanish class and at 6:15 a lady came by and told me the class
    has been canceled (as in forever) and that all the other sections are full
    but that I could get into the Tuesday/Thursday night class no problem.
    But, I have a class on Tuesday night and if I drop it I wont have enough
    credits to be stay a full time student.  So, I got go down to ASU on Tuesday
    (the day I have no classes and needed to work in the morning) and wait for
    two hours for a lady to show up to first tell me I couldn't get an override
    and then, after being told I was in the canceled class, said "Oh, no
    problem, which one do you want?"  So, then I stood in line for an hour to
    get into the new Spanish class (ahhhh, but do you have the stamp on your
    drop/add slip from your college?  Go get that first and then return to the
    line, please.  NEXT!)
    That was the biggest problem yesterday.  Tomorrow I should actually get to
    go to all my classes and maybe even (gasp!)get to learn something!

    Sure there are bigger problems than mine, but HE asked....

    Message: 69013
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Iran is the odd one
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 20:40:16

    Good observation, Rod.  Iran is not an arab nation.  The 93% Shi'ite claim
    is only *since* the revolution -- it is not in one's best interest to be
    anything else.

    The government is controlled by religious leaders -- imagine a US run by
    Falwell or Pat Robertson.  There would be many people upset by such a
    'Christian nation', even those of other sects of Christianity.

    I've talked to several Iranian refugees (since the revolution), and count
    two among my friends.  The Shah wasn't a good guy (but he was *our* b*s+ard)
    but this current government is the pits.

    Message: 69014
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/WRONGO!
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 20:48:06

    Kuwait in no way wanted to "join up" with Iraq -- and neither does the king
    of Saudi Arabia.  Iraq invaded and annexed Kuwait for two reasons: One real,
    the other for the Iraqi public.  The real reason is that Iraq needs money
    (from oil) to fix its ruined economy -- caused by the war with Iran.  Kuwait
    (and others) were overproducing oil (based upon agreements) and keeping the
    price (and therefore Iraq's profits) down.  This was economic war -- Kuwait
    doesn't really want a strong Iraq (and least, not one strong enough to be
    belligerent to its arab neighbors).

    The 'public' reason is historical, as Iraq has had territorial claims on
    Kuwait for a very long time.  This is the "annexing the Sudetenland" or
    "bringing our German brothers back to the Fatherland" ploy.  Saddam was also
    able to make it a 'moral' step by denouncing the gambling of the Kuwaiti oil
    sheiks - who have been known to drop millions in casinos.

    Saudi Arabia, similarly, likes its independence.  Seeing as how it is the
    keeper of a couple of the holy places of Islam, though, Saddam can curry
    support by denouncing the heathen Americans who are trudging on holy ground,
    and denouncing the royalty of Saudi Arabia who invited them.

    Message: 69015
    Author: Mike Darus
    Category: War!
    Subject: DOG
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 23:10:48

    Good points, Beauregaard.  Iraq considers Kuwait part of its country stolen
    by the British after World War II.  This does sound more and more like old
    Adolph H.  I wish Ann was right that we could just tur our back.  But some
    things are worth action (maybe even war).  This is not just about the price
    of oil.  It it were not for the Israelis, Iraq might even have nuclear
    weapons already.  A few well-placed bombs solved that issue for a while.

    "Superpower" is undergoing a change of definition.  It used to be associated
    with military strength almost exclusively.  I think now it is more closely
    related to economic strength.  The Soviet Union's plight now is that they
    have the forces and weapons of military might but no economic base.  This
    may be a two edged sword.  On the one hand, they can not fight a protracted
    war because of economic restraints.  On the other hand, they might be
    tempted to use their military to gain economic goals (under different
    circumstances and leadership).

    "Superpower" means super influence in the world.  We may think that the
    right way is to live and let live, but the reality is that the pawns often
    feel the greater crunch when the king, queen, bishop, knights, and rooks are
    losing.  Not only do we have to push Iraq out of Kuwait, we should proably
    pop their bubble before they attain that superpower status.  They almost
    succeeded.

    Message: 69016
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ASU/probs
    Date: 08/28/90  Time: 23:30:18

    It's been awhile since I've had anything more annoying than a change for a
    full class on my schedule, but they sure royalled screwed it up back when I
    was a freshman...just for starters, I was listed as a nonresident (I've only
    lived in Phx for 20 years), I almost lost the scholarship I had because my
    application got filed in the bottom of the nonresident stack and almost went
    past the due date...

    Message: 69017
    Author: $ Pat Stoddard
    Category: War!
    Subject: Iraq
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 00:09:20

    Well, maybe we should bring the troops home (and send all the others back to
    their places).  Then, watch as Saddam marches into Riyadh, Dhahran, Abu
    Dhabi, and - what do you know, Kuwait would just become the smallest
    province of the Iraqi empire.  It has been noted in the press that Iraq may
    have the nuclear bomb in 2 or 3 years.  Their chemical weaponry, coupled
    with 1000+ mile range missiles, makes them dangerous (with unstable
    leadership, like now).  The Israeli air force may be the only local force
    able to stop (or, at least, severely, slow down) Saddam.  Iran could not,
    until Saddam wanted to be able to think about putting over 300,000 troops
    against maybe 100,000 Americans - and the rest.  Saddam may want to have an
    empire that stretches from the Caspian Sea to the Red Sea, the Mediterranean
    Sea to the Indian Ocean.

    As for superpower, the Soviets are only a military superpower.  Japan and
    Germany (or, Germany after 3 October) may be examples of economic
    superpowers.  The US may be the only country with elements of both military
    and economic super-power.

    Now, if only Bush threw out that darn Iraqi ambassador in DC......

    -Pat

    Message: 69018
    Author: $ Pat Stoddard
    Category: War!
    Subject: ASU
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 00:14:01

    If Arizona State University is supposed to be a shining example of higher
    education for the nation, well - forget it.  I went to that place for 1 year
    (1986-87), and only had problems with class closures at the very last
    minute, parking was a joke (still is!), and - for engineering students -
    trying to find professors and lab assistants with a grasp of American
    English.  But, the school does have a nice social atmosphere, and *had* a
    good football team then.

    If/when I decide to continue college, I will not return to the Tempe campus
    for classes.  I will either finish up at ASU West, or go out of Phoenix.
    Good luck to those who have to deal with ASUseless.

    -Pat

    Message: 69020
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Beau etc./Iraq
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 00:46:02

    Thanks for the info.  As I said earlier I really do not know what in the
    hell is going on over there so I was suppossing and trying to develop a
    theory, however weak.  And I admit that it was weak and I knew it while
    typing it but I had spent the evening reading all this stuff about those
    countries and I thought I'd put it up and see what happened.

    Thank you for your replies.  I will read them off line as I have a visitor
    at present.

    By the way Jeff (or whatever your name is) the idea for a tee shirt that you
    suggested is totally great.  I want to do some.

    Message: 69021
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: War!
    Subject: Ann/Mid-East
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 00:47:17

    I don't believe that the military operation in the Middle East is good for
    the U.S. economy.  Not this time.

    Perhaps it is like an investment in the sense that we are putting in
    millions of U.S. dollars in the hopes that we will be getting an abundant
    supply of middle eastern oil at a steal, so to speak.

    If we lose control of the oil fields many will believe that we will be
    at the mercy of those who may be able to show a capitalistic country like
    the U.S. what capitalism is all about.  And that scares the us.

    But consider what an over abundance of oil has done for us in the past:

          We are, as a nation, rushing around like chickens without heads.
    Many have big powerful automobiles that guzzle gas and that is not the only
    thing we waste or take for granted.  America in its capitalism is like a
    business with everyone trying to get on top, trying to own each other and
    making life stressful and unpleasant in so doing.

    We are spoiled.  But what really scares me the most is trying to see where
    we are headed, assuming we continue going along in the same direction.  In
    five years a simple house will cost upward of $200,000 dollars and a loaf
    of bread $5.  There will be many more poor and homeless but the minimum
    wage will be $11. per hour but so what.

    There will be one or two corporations with their branches running
    everything and each person will be numbered and monitored.  There will be
    sensors built into out toilets that will alert government if the wrong
    substances are found in the urine.  Only police will have guns.

    Babies will have a magnetic disk implanted under their skin at birth and
    their location will be tracked by satellite through out their lives.
    (This technology is being developed at present.)

    I guess what I am trying to say is screw the oil.  Let's get by on our own
    resources.  Let's not drive 3 in 5 and when we do then enjoy it as a treat.
    Not run around like we do now, rushing here, rushing there trying to survive
    and not really enjoying it.  Take a trolly ride once in a while and actually
    talk to the people around you.

    If a person has 10,000 cases of cokes in their larder then they take
    having a 'cold one' for granted and the enjoyment is just not the same as
    having a six pack and having a treat every once in a while.

    The way we are heading has got to change, slow down, end, find a new and
    better course.  It's time we bit the big one.

    Think of the lost jobs that will come about from having to limit our oil.
    There will be a lot of them, myself included.  But also think of the
    benefits, streets uncrowded, much less pollution, less scheduled air
    traffic and again less pollution in our cities.

    But there will be a lot more jobs in other areas.  The development and
    refinement of the electric auto will be one of them.

    Someday it may even be possible for me to actually buy a home for my family
    but not at the rate that capitalism is spreading.  It is like a disease and
    I'll bet that if it were looked at as such then heart disease, the number
    one killer right now would have to move down a notch.  But isn't it true
    that stress causes heart disease and that capitalism of the nature that we
    have developed causes stress?

    But don't take my word for it, just look at the overcrowded prisons.  This
    should tell you a lot about a country, any country.  Look at the homeless.
    Go by 800 W. Madison on any day and see the swelling numbers of men, women
    and children who live on the cardboard.  This should also tell you
    something about a nation.  Consider what this nation spends on weapons of
    war and what it spends on its internal problems.  This also should tell you
    a lot about a country, any country.

    We live in a non-particapatory democracy in that in the final analysis the
    people are given two bums to vote for in the presidential election.  One
    from party A and one from party B but they are in effect the same party as
    they both serve the corporate empire and not the people in the cities.  Any
    candidate that is not mainline is not supported by the controlled popular
    press and you know that as well as I.

    I guess it will take a grass-roots movement in order to bring about the
    needed change as the comfortable corporate empire and their politicians
    have little reason for change.  They need not see the unpleasantness of
    this country except perhaps in an occasional picture.

    The American people are being suckered into believing that a war is
    necessary for us to survive but while the death toll climbs from the
    accidents and such and while taxes continue to rise then perhaps the
    proverbial straw will then be felt on the backs of the American people.
                                    Rod
    P.S.  If you think this is purely BS you may be right.  I just felt like
    typing this evening and all this stuff was floating near the surface of my
    brain.  I transferred it to my fingertips and here it is.

    Message: 69025
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mel/ASU
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 01:18:25

    I see.  BTW, I like the respect you show by capitalising the masculine
    pronoun when refering to me.  Nice touch.  I think you should always refer
    to me in third person...venerate me, baby.

    Message: 69026
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Iran/Iraq war
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 01:25:25

    Rod asks a very interesting question, and I don't know how to answer it.
    Perhaps someone else who paid more attention to the whole affair (I didn't)
    would care to explain why, if Iraq has the fourth most powerful army in the
    world, why they couldn't take Iran in eight (?) years of fighting.

    Message: 69027
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/last
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 02:54:05

    Iran has a population of something like 53 million compared to Iraq's 18
    million.  And didn't a part of the U.S. Government sell Iran some weapons to
    be used to fight the Iraqies?

    In any case after carefully reading the messages of Jeff Beck, Beauregard
    Dog, Mike Darius and Pat Stoddard on the Mid East affair I saw some
    interesting and important information that I hadn't considered or been aware
    of.  Thanks guys for your effort.
                                    Rod
    P.S.  My last group of four messages to Ann was posted before I saw this new
    information so if I had to rewrite it I would make a few small changes.

    Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:RC

    Message: 1032
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Review
    Subject: Wait a minute...
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 01:38:39

    Which one's Siskel, and which one's Ebert, and how can you tell the
    difference?  Is it true that Jack Palance is an honorary member of the
    Nation of Islam (Black Muslims)?  Why aren't my whites whiter?  Why aren't
    my brights brighter?  I bought the special soap in the short box with the
    handle, and now I'm frustrated.  Why don't I ever see people moving in
    short, jerky motions like they do in Levi's 501 jeans commercials?  L. Ron
    Hubbard spoke to me in my dreams last night...he promised that Farrah and
    Ryan will be together in heaven.  I'm so relieved.  I ran up a $500.00 phone
    bill calling 976 numbers last month, and I didn't have one -- oops...wrong
    SIG.  But, is it wierd to get pleasure from dressing up in boxer shorts and
    black fishnet stockings and pretend that Hal Linden is on the phone talking
    about Polish trout fisheries?

    Message: 1033
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 08/29/90  Time: 02:48:15

    Where is it playing?