### Apollo BBS Archive - December 28 - 31, 1989

    Message: 62165
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Porn Definition
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 08:24:03

       I feel, personally, that something may be deemed pornographic, if it
    doesn't meet any or all of the following criteria.

    * If the item is a film, the sex scenes do not outnumber the regular scenes,
      or obliterate any sense of a plot.

    * If the sex scenes are there, the sex scenes should not include graphic
      genital close-ups. I feel it doesn't help the plot of any film one iota.

    * Again, if film, the sole interest of the film should not be the excitement
      of the sexual organs. (The type of film that Joe Schmoe rents down at the
      video store, and fast forwards between brief "non-sex" scenes, to get to
      the "action.")

    * The film must not portray women in a sexually degrading sense (the same
      with the men in the film, though this is seldom the case). The exception
      being that the portrayal, in a larger sense, clearly shows a condemnatory
      attitude toward derrogatory themes (I hope I worded that right, did you
      understand it? Basically, if a "degrading" scene is used to portray a
      bigger picture that the sort of thing is wrong.)

    Message: 62166
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak II
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 08:27:22

       I don't necessarily agree with Cliff's comment (that you are "immoral"
    for defending pornography). A debate has to have two sides, or it becomes
    very boring indeed. To have a debate in which everyone agrees is quite
    silly when you attempt to envision it.

    Message: 62167
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak (is it III?)
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 08:32:48

      Now if a nativity scene (or a menorah, or whatever) were placed upon
    public property by the government, or an agency of the government, I agree
    that I would have cause to be concerned. But if such scene were placed on
    public property by an individual or non-governmental entity, I question the
    problem. Parks are indeed public property, and if you want to step up on a
    soapbox and speak publicly on something, you can. It is not limited to
    non-religious topics. And I feel that a public speaker makes more of a
    statement than any nativity scene could. What is your opinion on private,
    non-governmental displays of any religious persuasion on public property?

    As for the crack topic, it was a while back. I had the computer down for a
    week or so. Let me go back and re-read it.

    Message: 62168
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ray
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 09:51:25

    Hi again Ray. I assume you are the former Ray Meatcutter?! Ha ha. Did you
    join good old Apollo? Hope so.
    I too hope you had a Merry one. Looking forward to chatting with you.
                           -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. A friendly hint .... turn off your caps when writing messages. We can
    hear you? *Heh

    Message: 62169
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 10:00:27

    Gads no, I do not think you condone the depiction of rape in films! When I
    say "this is my opinion" I always mean just that and you have yours. I
    respect yours and always want mine respected also. That's what makes it nice
    to banter about a subject - the difference of opinions. We all have reasons
    of our own on how we come to believe in something and that is where the
    interest lies - finding out how and why and person believes the way they do.
    See? I know I've changed my mind about a subject or a person - see their
    side more clearly on this board. So please don't take offence. None was
    intended. In fact, when you said "I believe a film can handle the subject of
    rape without acting it out in graphic realism" -- we are in perfect
    agreement! So what's the fuss? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62170
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 10:05:45

    Yeah I did notice that Cliff turned the Panama thing around to my smoking. I
    think I get his hint that he wants me to quit! He's not being too subtle.
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62171
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 62152
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 11:00:28

    What a fairy story!  Remind me not to tell that one to my kids.

    Message: 62172
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: religious icons
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 11:03:41

    OK, so, it wouldn't be bad if individuals (not the gov't) placed a menorah r
    or a nativity scene on government property.  Some people claim that
    Communism is a religion - what if I wanted to place a hammer-and-sicle (sp?)
    on public property for a May Day celebration?  I remember the
    holier-than-thou crowd fought to keep Terry Choate from putting a North
    Vietnamese flag on his War Protesters memorial.

    And, what if some local Shiites decided to place a picture of Khomeini on
    public property to celebrate an Islamic holy day?  What about Satanists (the
    Anton LaVey type) putting put symbols to celebrate their own birthdays?

    Message: 62173
    Author: David Ray
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: #Guns..Porn..noise.
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 11:23:39

    I did'nt mean to catagorize this as a GT.  I am experiencing line noise.  As
    for guns, they do not kill people.  People kill people.  A gun is merely a
    tool as is a knife, hammer, or an Axe but in the wrong hands, any of those
    items may be used to kill.  As for pornography, I don't like it but am
    afraid if people take away pornography, they can take away other forms of
    "Freedom of Speech".  It is kind of like the assault rifle issue.  It
    started out with military type rifles and automatic weapons, and now they
    talk about taking away semi-automatic pistols.
    After spending 4 years in the Navy, it bothers me when a buch of fools talk
    about taking away some of our rights.
    (maybe my comparison is a little weak but I will be more than happy to
    elaborate if it is required.)
    Dave

    Message: 62174
    Author: David Ray
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Panama
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 11:28:53

    I believe our invasion had nothing to do with the Panama Canal but I do
    think that we figure the Panama Canal is an added bonus.  We should have
    never given that sucker away anyway.  Too many americans died building it,
    and it has very very important military advantages.

    Message: 62175
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on subtle..
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 12:33:01

            You noticed....  Well?
            I hate hearing about our boys in the service getting killed in
    action.  But, freedom has a price and we can't run from tyranny just because
    someone might get hurt or killed.
            I also hate to see people kill themselves with poison and drugs,
    just to get a 'high'.   Smoking has no useful purpose!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62176
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 62152
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 14:20:47

    If death is really the beginning, why not get started?
    What's the point of life on earth at all?

    Message: 62177
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 62150
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 14:25:50

    Re: "There are few people who watch 'entry-level' porn that could actually
    sit and comfortably watch a real couple doing it in their presence.  But
    what is the real difference between these two?"

    Are you saying you can't tell the difference between film and reality?
    Notice that the first sentence above is not only true of porn, it is true of
    television commercials and virtually any other fictional scene you care to
    think of.

    Re: porn in general.
    Two issues should be distinguished:
      1. Is porn morally bad?
      2. What should be done about porn?

    Notice that a "yes" answer to the first does not imply the answer "it should
    be banned" to the latter; banning porn may well (and probably does) have
    consequences worse than allowing it to exist.  (Just as the negative effects
    of drug prohibition outweigh the harms of the drugs themselves; see Ethan
    Nadelmann's article in the September 1, 1989 issue of _Science_.)

    Message: 62178
    Author: Tom Smith
    Category: News Today
    Subject: peace
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 20:42:20

    t[DToday Is a going to be great for tomorrow will bring us great joy
    and only those will rejoice in the peace movement*

    Message: 62179
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 22:25:42

      Hey, think what you wish. It's yo' life.

      BTW: I think I might be able to get something Be Bop Deluxish out of
    Germany. Interested?

    Message: 62180
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau/Icons
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 22:29:33

    For the most part, I would not be against it. I may not agree with it, and
    (in the case of the Satanists) it might turn my stomach, but I don't think
    I'd be parading around with placards or shouting rude comments against it.

    I understand that Anton Lavey was one of the cheesier "Satanists." He was
    real heavy on the showmanship (I believe there was some circus sideshow in
    his heritage somewhere...his father, perhaps?)

    Message: 62181
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Uhoh, Dave
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 22:30:42

    You may have started something bigger than all of us. No...NOT a Guns/Noise/
    Porn GT!!! NOoOoOoOoOoooo....

    Message: 62182
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim/62176
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 22:39:36

      Heh, I take your thinly veiled sarcasm by returning a smile which I'm sure
    it was intended to induce. Seriously though, Jim. As a Christian, I cannot
    help myself to an "expressway" to eternal life (i.e., suicide). Standing
    before the Judgment Seat of Christ stained with the blood of my own self-
    murder...my pathway to eternity will indeed be shortened, but I'll be on the
    wrong path with no way back.
      What's the meaning of life here on Earth? Well, that's a leading question
    as you know what I am going to answer. Let's just say that my understanding
    of the meaning of life has made me a happier, more constructive person, and
    has eliminated all of my self-destructive tendencies that came from the
    misunderstood belief that my existence was all because of some great cosmic
    accident (i.e., utter pointlessness). Let's just say that the first two
    letters are "Chi" and "Rho."

    Message: 62183
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tom Smith/Peace
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 22:41:10

    Your message was a bit spotty. Would you care to elucidate?

    Message: 62184
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Anton LaVey
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 23:50:06

    LaVey himself worked for the circus.

    Message: 62185
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/62182
    Date: 12/27/89  Time: 23:59:03

    I may very well not be around to see the answer to my question, but I don't
    see how Christ or God can give life meaning in the ultimate sense (as
    contrasted with a universe without God).  The very same problems about
    ultimate meaning for humans in a godless universe apply just as well to a
    universe in which human beings are part of God's plan.  (What, for example,
    is it that gives God's life meaning?  Having people exist who fulfill his
    plans?)  Harvard philosopher Robert Nozick raises many interesting questions
    about just what we're looking for when we ask for "the meaning of life" in
    the last chapter of his book, _Philosophical Explanations_.  Simply
    asserting the existence of God and our part in his plan doesn't suffice
    for "ultimate meaning."

    (Oh, and by not being around to see the answer to the question, I just mean
    I'm going back to Tucson tomorrow.  I haven't decided to take my own life
    due to existential despair or anything.  Personally I am not particularly
    plagued by a desire for "ultimate meaning"--every day garden variety meaning
    is good enough for me.)

    Message: 62186
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 02:46:27

         So a film that portrays women in a degrading way *without* implying
    that this is wrong, is to be illegal?  I disagree:  even though this is a
    bad value (in my opinion), we can't take away people's right to express
    a belief (that women should be degraded).  Likewise, we shouldn't
    censor the Ku Klux Klan, Satanists, or people who promote other values that
    the majority disagrees with.  Good values shouldn't be taught simply by
    censoring (what are thought to be) bad values.  Good values should be taught
    by expressing them louder, and more coherently; we teach best by example.
    Suppressing the oppositon is the wimp's route.

         I agree with the point that a distinction should be made between
    something being morally wrong, and the need for it to be illegal.
    Pornography may very well go against your values of how humans should behave
    and what's tasteless to portray on film (and that's quite understandable),
    but to censor it with legislation is a step in the wrong direction.

         So what do you think, Daryl?  Do we need to close down hard-core
    pornography stores and declare pornography illegal?  Or should we just let
    it exist, and put more effort into the promotion of good values?

    Message: 62187
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/last
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 06:04:36

    Your last question to Daryl puts us on a basis for agreement Zak.
     Since to suppress something seems to make it the more desirable to those
    who are being denied access, it wold seem the better thing to allow porn to
    exist while using more energy and time teaching, mostly by precept and
    example, the better qualities of life, the higher goals, the more worthy
    values.
     If we spent as much time teaching our children the benefits of maturing
    without delving into the gutters of life as we do in a futile attempt to
    clean up the gutters, we would probabaly not have to concern ourselves so
    much with the future generations.

    Message: 62188
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last two on Porn
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 09:02:29

            I find my self in agreement with Zak and Paul.....

                                    Gadd Zooks!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62189
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Ye ol' Vote
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 09:08:44

    With what you know NOW;   Do you approve of the actions of the U.S. Military
    in Panama?

    [A] Yes!
    [B] No!

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 23   [B] 5

    The above seems rather obvious........

    Message: 62190
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: result on Panama
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 11:16:45

    Yep!  People aren't thinking about the situation in the proper ways!

    Message: 62191
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: USF
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 15:11:48

    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 89 10:20:30 est
    From: Eric Haines - eye!erich@wrath.cs.cornell.edu
    Subject: United Space Federation

    Here's your chance to help budding kooks with delusions of grandeur blossom
    into a full fledged crazies.  Simply send a stamped, self-addressed envelope
    to:
              United Space Federation
              PO Box 4722
              Ithaca, NY  14852

    and ask them to send you information.  You'll get stuff about the society,
    written in a style showing signs of incipient schizophrenia.  No full blown
    rants here, rather, writing with glimpses of something not quite right with
    the author.  Sublime kook stuff.

    He (Rick Dobson - is that last name symbolic or what?)  and his friends have
    a television show on cable access here, which I am sad to say has not yet
    received notice of the world media or the aliens.  I've caught the last
    minute ofthe show about four times, and judging from the credits I've missed
    a lot.  Caught a glimpse of a woman at a podium in a white, 25th century
    style tunic with sash, then the USF logo came on, looking like something a
    sixth grader who liked to draw space ships would make for art class.

    Just to give you a taste of what you'll get, here's something from the USF
    pledge:

        I (blank) understand that should I break this pledge, I will be banned
        from the USF for life.  My name and picture will be released to all USF
        members as a traitor to humankind and earth.  My name and picture will
    be
        released to the world media as a traitor to the USF.

    and a few inspiring words from the intro letter:

        May our human ancestors of the future earth look back and say, "Those
        people of the world put aside all their differences for this one pure
    quest
        of unity for the knowledge of the cosmos.  I am sure their world will be
        full of wonders we can only dream can happen!"

    We're still puzzling out who the "human ancestors of the future" are and in
    what time period they live.  Anyway, I highly recommend blowing two stamps
    on
    this group.  They'll be thrilled (and possibly confused) to get mail from
    outside the Ithaca area.  Who knows?  Maybe your note will inspire them to
    start building the international launch site now.

    Message: 62193
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: from me
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 15:18:52

    I got my stuff from the USF today (20 cents postage due, so be sure to put
    45 cents on the SASE).  Rick Dobson was overjoyed that someone from faraway
    Phoenix has heard of his organization and wrote me a long handwritten note.
    He's semi-illiterate, apparently:  "Dear Jim, I am glad that someone in
    Phoenix, AZ has herd of my quest!  Many people and organizations from around
    the world have been sending me letters in support of the United Space
    Federation.  Human Kind is now faced with many global challenges, space the
    new fronteer offers many promising solutions and answers to those problems.
    If human kind is not to become exstinct like the dinosours on your stamps we
    must prepair our future with antisapation of much change of the world that
    supports us, and the ever changing universe around us.  Just recently an
    asteroide of emense size nearly missed stricking the earth.  If this had
    happend what would be our fate!, and would we have been prepaired to adapt
    to the effects it would have caused.  That is why human kind must exspand
    its knowledge of the universe around us; not that we as micro cosoms in the
    universe will have the Power to change forces beyond our controle, but
    simply have the insight and knowledge to prepair our Future generations for
    these changes.  So that they may carry the wounder of life outward to the
    stars that are our past and our future!  Thank you for your support and
    interest in my quest for the stars.  Tell others of this quest so that it
    may be realized and passed on to those who follow us, and to those who
    follow them!
        Godspeed $ car-PAY-dieum.  Founder $ director UNITED SPACE FEDERATION,
    Rick R. Dobson"

    Message: 62194
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Guns/Porn/Noise
    Date: 12/28/89  Time: 21:34:12

      Actually we were only one item short of that at the Buckaroo Banzai GT
    last night.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 62195
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 09:37:21

    Re: "Smoking has no useful purpose"! ...... neither is a lot of things in
    this life but that doesn't mean people don't enjoy it and I consider that  a
    useful purpose. BTW - how would you know about smoking? Did you ever smoke?
    And I don't mean a puff or a few cigaretts when you were a youth?
                                   -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62196
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on vote
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 09:46:09

    What was the purpose of the Christmas tree vote? Who got it together and
    why? Wouldn't it be easier to just ask the members how they feel about
    X-trees than go to a vote? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62197
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 11:53:39

            Yes, I did smoke for several years....  And yes people do enjoy it.
    But that enjoyment seems to get in the way of the people who don't enjoy it.
    I know...  you think not smoking around a person fixes that...  But to be
    100 percent honest...if you are a real non-smoker, just being near a person
    that smokes can make you sick even when they are NOT smoking!  Everything
    that smoker has REEKS with the tobacco stench.

            Where is the enjoyment in that?

            When you get older and get very sick or collapse a lung, where is
    the enjoyment in that?

            When you're giving all you families life saving for their 'Golden
    Years' to some Doctor to keep you alive, where is the enjoyment in that.

            Note:  My Aunt Edith who was married to my Uncle Bob who died a
    horrible death because of heavy smoking is now pretty much broke.  That
    smoker sure left his wife in pickle....  Where is the enjoyment in that?
    Please tell me Ann?  Hu?  Say it louder Ann...

    Message: 62198
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann on Vote
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 12:04:05

    One third of all the trees brought into Arizona were sold.  That left two
    thirds on the lots.  I personaly do not believe in Christmas trees.  I think
    this holiday has gotten too commercial, and is not celebrated for the
    correct reasons.  Christmas is not about Santa Claus and Christmas trees,
    but is about Christ, the savior of mankind.

    Ann, I was just curious as to how many other people did not have a tree, and
    to how many other people decided on an artificial tree to avoid the money
    grabbers on the tree lots.   I guess when I was a kid in Rhode Island, We
    all had real trees...but they were cheap....  I remember them being under 5
    bucks and smelling better than the ones sold here.

    Message: 62199
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: USF
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 17:09:23

    HAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAH
    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA--AHA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
    HAHAHAH-HAH-HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA-COUGH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

    Ok, send them that on a postcard.
     ..and tape a picture of Phyllis Diller on it.

    Message: 62200
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim/God
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:11:47

       How could a human being possibly attempt to speculate the thoughts of an
    infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent God? Sure, it is mind-boggling to think
    about, but impossible to answer (at least here and now).

    Message: 62201
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Porn/Illegal
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:13:35

       I thought we were attempting to define pornography, not creating criteria
    for making it illegal.

    Message: 62202
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Paul/62186-8
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:14:50

       I agree with the both of you as well. But then again, you've already read
    my previous post.

    Message: 62203
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim/USF
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:17:07

    I know that this message is not from you, but do you have access to this
    public access cable program? I would be interested in sending you out a
    blank videotape to record a segment or two for me. Wallace & Ladmo is
    history and I need stupid humor to wake me up in the morning.

    Message: 62204
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Cigarettes
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:22:43

       My, after an eventful day, I can think of nothing more satisfying than
    putting something "on fire" in my mouth and inhaling noxious fumes and
    poisons. (Heh) So, what's the difference between those few cigarettes in
    youth and a pack in adulthood? Does one's carbon monoxide hormone production
    mature at 21? (Heh heh)

    Message: 62205
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/trees
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 22:25:15

    My wife and I are using the same artificial tree that my parents used for
    over 20 years. It leans a little but it still looks nice and we saved a tree
    (again!)

    Message: 62206
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:42:58

    Re: "Sure, you are going to find some self-righteous people who claim to be
    Christians. There are those Christians who become so self-righteous, they
    forget just who is really in authority."

    Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing and to watch out for
    them, but what I don't understand is why the rest of the wolves point to the
    wolves in sheep's clothing and blame their behavior on the sheep??

    Message: 62207
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:43:34

    Jeff,  I thought your posts on guns in Switzerland and the US was very
    enlightening.  Where did you get the statistics?

    Message: 62208
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JT
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:44:19

    Re:  "perhaps if you would read the book in question instead of prejudging
    it"
    Gee Jim, I hardly have time to read the books I think I might like.  From
    your description of the book, I don't think I would like it.

    Re:  "McDowell's books are pretty lousy."
    That's a very general statement.  Perhaps if you could be more specific or
    cite an example, I could better understand why you think his books are
    "lousy".

    Re:  "Christian philosopher William Lane Craig"
    I'm surprised to hear you approve of any one who's a Christian.  Perhaps
    I've misjudged you, but I doubt it.  I will look for the 2 books you have
    recommended the next time I go to the library.  Craig actually said that
    McDowell's books are "pretty lousy"?  Interesting.  Actually I have not read
    your book either.  Would you send me an autographed copy for a Christmas
    present?  I promise to read it.

    Re:  "Why is it that you're being so ad hominem"
    I confess; I don't know what "ad hominem" means.  Tell me what it means, and
    I'll try to improve.  I hope you had a Merry Christmas Jim.  I would have
    responded sooner, but I was out of state for most of the week.

    Message: 62209
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JT
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:44:52

    Re:  "The Catholic Bible contains different books than the Protestant Bible.
     And if your criterion for what makes the REAL Bible is whatever the Jews
    accept, then you obviously reject the New Testament."

    Come on Jim.  You should know what my answer is.  You're just trying to
    show-boat.  But I'll answer anyway.  The Catholic Bible only contains
    different books in the OT.  So I have accepted the OT as the Hebrews have
    accepted it.  Like you said, they are God's chosen people.

    Re:  "have you ever read any books about early Christian history and the
    formation of Christian traditions"

    I took a course on the reformation taught by Rod Bias, but that's about it.
    I don't see how traditions would effect the truth of the Bible, and that
    truth is what I'm mostly interested in.  What did you have in mind?

    Message: 62210
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JT
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:45:17

    Re:  "I now have in my possession a "rose petal blessed by Jesus and Mary
    for cures and conversions."  It says so right on the label.

    I don't blame you for being skeptical Jim.  I think any intelligent person
    would be.  You've heard the cliche, "There's a sucker born every minute."
    Tell me Jim, how much did you have to pay for the rose petal?  :-)

    Message: 62211
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Shawn
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:45:55

    Re:  "In God's mind, the Bible existed in its entirety before the world was
    created.  He intended it to be a complete book in man's time."   -Bob
    Thornburg"

    Help, I can't seem to find that passage in my Bible.  Would the author of
    the post please elaborate?"

    It's not in the Bible, but since God is omniscient . . .

    Message: 62212
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/29/89  Time: 23:46:34

    Re:  "I think it might be best if we get a solid definition of pornography."

    Yea, right!  The Supreme Court can't even come up with a "solid definition"
    of porn.  Why don't you give it a shot, and I'll tell you what I think of
    it.

    Re:  "Censorship sucks."

    You believe in censorship as much as I do.  You just draw the line in a
    different place.

    Re:  "But some of my best friends are Christians, and I have a lot of
    respect for them."

    Thanks Zak!  I respect you too!  I knew you were just kidding when you
    called me a "weenie".  (or was it a hot dog?)

    Message: 62213
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/USF
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 00:24:06

    That cable program is in New York state.  Jim (and I) heard about it from
    the network.

    As to the problem of finding stupid humor in the morning... how about
    recording Late Night with David Letterman and watching it when you wake up?

    Message: 62214
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/Be Bop Deluxe
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 00:26:17

    What does 'ish' mean when appended to "Be Bop Deluxe" ???  Something live
    but not _Live! In the Air Age_ ???

    Message: 62215
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: The joys of smoking
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 06:02:24

    1. The joy of waking yourself up in the middle of he night, hacking your
    lungs out until you gag.
     2. The sheer pleasure of watching your friends avod being close to you,
    because you smell so bad, and since your sense of smell has been deadened,
    you don't even know why.
    3. The sheer pleasure of having the same, non-smoking friends (they're in
    the majority now) decline to visit you at home because your whole house
    smells like a used ash tray, right down to the drapes, furniture and carpet.
    (Of course, you don't realize this, for the same reason mentioned above.
    4. The joy of watching your money go up in smoke or into the garbage as the
    price of poison continually increases.
    5. The joy of eating all that food that tastes like cardboard, since your
    taste buds went the way of your other senses, thanks to the poisons you have
    put into your mouth.
    6. The fun of picking out new clothes, to replace all those with the ugly
    burn holes in them.
    7. The sheer pleasure of pondering the fact that, should you quit, within
    one year your lungs would return to a healthy condition, but you don't
    simply because you are hopelessly addicted, and all you can come up with for
    an excuse is that you "enjoy" all these little pleasures.
     And oh yes, I almost forgot the fun of catching up on all those outdated
    magazines you missed while you are in the doctor's waiting room, waiting for
    him to tell you that you have some incurable, smoking related disease, and
    have knowingly and willingly shortened your life span by a lot.

    Message: 62216
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on smoking
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 08:01:47

    When you are about 55 years old, I will come visit you in the hospital. No
    doubt you will be there for a bleeding ulcer - cause from stress by getting
    so upset over such things as other people smoking. Silly? Yeah! Just about
    as silly as you being so sure I'm going to end up with a collapsed lung or
    something. You can talk all you want about your uncle Bob and I can talk for
    hours about my uncle Alva that lived to be 86 and smoked all his life -
    unfiltered cigarettes, cigars and pipes too. He just died of natural causes
    - no lung problems at all. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62217
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on trees
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 08:09:28

    Your right about what Christmas really means. It seems our society has
    changed all that to mean nothing but 'buy, buy, buy'. Even if one is an
    athiest, it is still a time for thoughts of peace on earth and good
    fellowship - loving each other. I like a tree simply because it smells good.
    We have collected animal ornaments for the last 21 years - I get a new one
    each year - this year it was a stuffed panda.
    Tress are also for kids. How wonderful it is for them to wake up on
    Christmas morning to see their presents gaily wrapped sitting under that
    tree.
    I do not feel that trees are over priced. We go to Tip Top nursery and get
    ours each year - an eight footer for $19. At today's prices, that's fair.
    These trees were specially grown on a Xmas tree farm and is a business. We
    are not ruining our ecology by cutting them down. If a lot of trees arn't
    sold, it's a loss to the owner is all. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62218
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul/last
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 08:26:14

    I'm gonna blow holes in your little self rightous list ...
    1. I do not hack nor cough from smoking - and I certainly don't wake up in
    the night and do it. I never did cough. Sorry!
    2. I HAVE no FRIENDS that won't come close to me because I smoke. They
    wouldn't be friends if they judged me so.
    3. Sorry here too - most of my friends do smoke, so that makes them the
    majority in my life. BTW - smokers have always been in the minority even at
    the peak of cigarette consumption.
    4. I will have to agree with you on this one - money does indeed go up in
    smoke. But choclolate goes to fat - water goes down the toilet, etc. etc.
    5. There's NOTHING wrong with my taste buds. When I have quit before, I
    could not tell the difference. Taste buds change with age normally anyway.
    6. I have no burn holes in my clothes. Will admit that careless hubby does
    though!
    7. I don't know how good a shape a person's lung would be after one year of
    not smoking - but I have read statistics that you really arn't adding all
    that many years to your life by quitting because if your prone to lung
    damage, it's already been done.
    When I go to the doctor he has so far told me my lungs sound fine. One even
    went to far as to tell me that they didn't sound like I smoked. So put this
    in your pipe and smoke it! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62219
    Author: Larry Winn
    Category: News Today
    Subject: AUSTRALIAN SPACEPORT
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 09:34:32

    THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT HAS APPROVED PLANS FOR A COMMERCIAL SPACEPORT.
    THE FACILITY ON THE CAPE YORK PENINSULA WILL USE THE SOVIET UNION'S ZENIT
    BOOSTERS FOR COMMERCIAL SATELLITE LAUNCHES.
    THE INITIAL LAUNCHES ARE SCHEDULED FOR 1995.
    THE DECISION TO USE THE SOVIET-BUILT ROCKETS WAS BASED ON MUCH LOWER COSTS
    AND PROVEN RELIABILITY.

    Message: 62220
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann's reply to Paul
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 11:46:00

            Sandy mentioned she was by your house twice in the last few days.
    Well, One of those times I was with her and Sandy said "Let's go visit
    Ann"...  I said "Hell no, My allergy can't take that punishment", and onward
    I kept driving.
            You have more Smoker friends because they are the only ones that can
    get close to you......
            When Sandy visits you and comes home...I won't get near her till she
    showers and gets them smoke filled clothes in the washer.  And I go out and
    open up the car to let it air out.  Sorry Ann... Smoke really bothers me and
    them's the facts!  Good thing you are such a nice person!

            Your uncle who died of natural causes is the RARE exception....
    It is a proven fact Smokers KILL themselves and other people around them.
    Women once out lived men by many years...  this is changing because more
    women smoke now days then they did 50 years ago.
            I am not upset about people smoking...  I stay as far a-way as I can
    from them.  You like the smell of Christmas trees, and I like the smell of
    clean air!   No ulcer here!

            HOWEVER.... If I had my choice, I would not have these awful
    allergies, and might be able to better handle it.

            Now let's talk about how many more people died in fires caused by
    smokers then were killed in Panama this year.......

    Message: 62221
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Smoking
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 12:48:00

      You can add tobacco smoking in with venereal disease as another revenge of
    the American indian against the Europeans who came over and wiped out their
    civilization.
       See You Later
          Dean H.

    Message: 62222
    Author: Tom Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: TOM SMITH/SUNSETS
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 21:21:01

    YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR.

    Message: 62223
    Author: Tom Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: TOM SMITH/PEACE
    Date: 12/30/89  Time: 21:24:03

    I`m sure we all have a little trouble trying to express oursleves somtimes
    I just hope we have a good new year

    Message: 62224
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/my list
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 05:33:28

     You must have a guilty conscience Annie! COrrect me if I'm wrong, but I
    believe that I titled my post "The joys of smoking", and don't think that
    your name was in there at all.
     At any rate, you didn't blow holes in anything I said. Every point Imade
    was pure and simple fact, in probably 95% of all smokers.
     If you're the exception to any of those, you better quit while you're
    ahead. Remember, emphysema is incurable.
     So are most forms of lung cancer.
     So is terminal heart disease, most of which is caused by smoking.
     So you say that you smoke because you enjoy it? Gee, Ann. I seem to
    remember that one. It's the same lie that I told myself for years. Must be
    generic.

    Message: 62225
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Tom Smith
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 05:36:16

     Gee Tom, you're having such a nice conversation with yourself, I almost
    hate to interrupt. But I will anyway.
     Have a happy new year yourself!

    Message: 62226
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: New Year Cheer!
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 07:01:49

            Happy New Year everyone...  (That includes the smokers too) ha ha

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62227
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on smoking
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 10:16:56

    Yes, I know smoking bothers you and I've always tried to be considerate. I
    too once had very bad sinus and allergies and it was strange ... I could
    smoke, but could not stand for it to be blown in my face - either mine or
    someone else's smoke. Moving to Arizona cured it completely fortunately.
                               -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I also have many non-smoking friends too. And no, my uncle wasn't rare.
    At least not in my family. I also know many old people that continue to
    smoke.

    Message: 62228
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pauley
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 10:22:44

    RE: "So is terminal heart disease, most of which is cause by smoking".
    Uhhh ... stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 'terminal heart disease' kill
    most people eventually? You sound like if everyone quit smoking, we wouldn't
    die or something!
    Just last night I heard on the news that Japan now has the highest longivity
    in the world --- and lo and behold, they have one of the highest smoking
    statistics also!
    I bet you'd give your eye teeth for a cigarette right now! Just try and tell
    me you don't want one! *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62229
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Happy ...
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 10:24:10

    ... New Years to all you folks ... and that includes all the militant
    non-smokers too! -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. Don't forget - don't drink and drive!

    Message: 62230
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: paul/smoking
    Date: 12/31/89  Time: 11:11:11

    Well, I must comment on this especially since this is one of the rare
    times tha Paul and I are in total agreement. As a reformed smoker, I
    am about as radical about smokers polluting my airspace as you can get.
    I don't mind if smokers pollute themselves, but I draw the line at smokers
    who are so selfish about their right to smoke, that they make my eyes
    water and my lungs react with their second-hand smoke. For example, I
    had breakfast in McDonalds this AM with my wife. While my wife and I were
    enjoying the paper, and finishing up our meal, a smoker lights up
    (apparently there is no non-smoking area in McDonalds) My eyes start to
    water, I start to hack, and the fumes are nauseating. Now whose rights have
    been violated. I say that MY rights have been violated. Mr.
    Selfish Smoker could have gone outside or gone home and stunk up his house
    to his delight. But, NOOOO, he had to stink up my airspace, make me sick,
    and ruin a perfectly good breakfast. Down With Public Smoking !!!