### Apollo BBS Archive - December 14, 1991

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    Rod..
            You look clean on this end.  I do not see line noise... but you do
    seem to be having some sort of problem.

            Re: your pro Fred Smith post as him seeming logical..  Fred Smith is
    pro 'land-lord' as a means of wealth.   I do not recall this being to your
    liking.   Have you changed that much?  However, I do enjoy Fred's posts and
    he seems to carry himself well in the debates.

    [R]eread or [C]ontinue:Continue

    Mail from James Hawley
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 01:49:57

    Sure I've seen you when you weren't stoned.  Yellow Page jobs can be
    interesting.  I just had a sports bar at Metrocenter call me.  I went all
    the way up there (1am), and one of the bartenders sees the keys (which were
    supposedly lost) sitting on a hook in plain sight behind the bar.  The
    manager wanted a receipt, so I went out to my van and got her one, and a few
    cards.

    I charged her $30. I feel this was pretty fair, for that time of night.  She
    demanded one of the cards, saying she was going to call MY boss and see what
    was going on.  Hahahahaahahaahahahaaa.  I told her, "My phone is going to
    ring, I'm the boss".  But she just sneered at me.

    So when my phone rang, she hung up, and ripped my card up and tossed it at
    me.  Silly people.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Sounds like an interesting job you described.  One A.M., Metrocenter, $30.
     2:is more than fair.  At least you got paid.
     3:
     4:So, have you  thought about firing yourself or just reprimanding?

    *=* Main Menu entered *=*

    Main Menu command:JN

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board entered *=*

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 5245
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Fred/prejudice (2/2)
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 23:04:20

    An association, lik

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:RC5244-

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 5244
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Fred/prejudice (1/2)
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 23:03:22

    There's certainly a difference between saying that a black guy is "probably"
    a thief (which implies an assumption that blacks are "usually" thieves), and
    the conclusion that the guy *is* a thief, which must inevitably follow from
    the belief that *all* blacks are thieves.  The difference, obviously, is one
    of probability.  "Probably" or "usually" means a probability of over 50%.
    "Is" or "all" means a probability of 100%.  Without consciously intending to
    do so, I think I reflected a difference in the types of thinking involved by
    the difference in the way I phrased the two statements.

    "Probability" is an artificial construct that we need to make informed
    decisions, like combining the likelihood that this guy would be seen at the
    crime scene with the likelihood that he might have happened to come into
    some unexplained money, and other evidence, *if* he didn't do the crime, and
    using this data to decide if he's (probably) guilty or not.  Probability is
    something we process with logical thinking.  Probability can be higher or
    lower, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

    Prejudice, though, is based on experience and usually involves a lot of
    associative thinking.  We look at an old car, and ideas come into our heads
    like "old car = unreliable" (because we've seen lots of trouble with old
    cars).  And if we've heard a lot about black people stealing things, we can
    have an association like "black = thief".

    Message: 5245
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Fred/prejudice (2/2)
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 23:04:20

    An association, like a probability, can be stronger or weaker, but either
    it's there or it isn't.  I think a problem arises when people rely
    exclusively on associations instead of exposing them to the critical faculty
    of logic, because the strength of the association isn't necessarily a clear
    guide to reality.  If somebody's heard a lot about black people stealing
    things, and been surrounded by exaggerated statements like "blacks are all a
    bunch of thieves" (and people do *say* things like this), they're going to
    have a very strong association between the two.  When an association is so
    strong that notions of theft *always* come to mind when black people are
    mentioned, the idea can well exist at some level of the mind that black
    people really *are* all thieves.  Or at least, the fact that an idea
    "always" comes to mind can be thought to imply that it's "always" true.

    It isn't, of course, and if that associative idea is exposed to the critical
    faculty, it can be seen as a gross exaggeration, and translated into the
    proper degree of probability.  It's when people refuse to look at their
    ideas critically that they often end up acting as if all those unexamined
    associations were really true.

    Message: 5246
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Gordon...
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 08:19:39

            Gordon > "old car = unreliable"....

            Grrr, those are 'fighting' word Mr. Little...  Wanna RACE my old
    'unreliable' car?   Quarter Mile?

            From my way of thinking, Cars in the 60's are more reliable.. Humph!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 5247
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 12:44:34

    Well, my whole argument is about the danger of relying on prejudiced
    opinions!

    Re cars, I have been pleased with my '82 Capri though.  It's been extremely
    reliable.  Not that I can say the same about a friend of mine who bought one
    of the first Cavaliers back about the same time...

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Cosmos-Chatter

    Subject:CARS

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Automobiles have hurt this world so much that it'll take 1000 year just to
     2:shake the shit off.
     3:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 5248

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

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    *=* Public Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Public Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 80525
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Funky Log
    Date: 12/13/91  Time: 19:14:50

    Did Funky Alf attempt some speed log ons?

    Message: 80526
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/gold
    Date: 12/13/91  Time: 21:29:00

      I haven't been reading $Archimedes' posts, but I have read yours and so
    have been able to follow the essence of the continuing debate over a gold
    standard.   I still don't understand what would force the world governments
    (who hold almost all of the (mined) world gold supply) or the handful of
    collectors (who hold most of the rest) to exchange their gold for what would
    become worthless pieces of paper under a gold standard.   And what happens
    to all the rest of the population?  Do they starve, cease making car and
    house payments, and in general, consume neither goods nor services, because
    they have little or no gold?  Even if the government opened an exchange at
    the doors of Fort Knox ( Does the government suddenly redistribute all its
    gold, leaving itself in penury?) there wouldn't be a millionth of the
    required amount of gold to exchange for all the frns in this country, much
    less all the frns in other countries, unless the government artificially and
    drastically raised the price of gold (to a few million dollar per ounce?),
    and who would be stupid enough to buy gold at such a price, relative to its
    world market price?  Or does the government prevent free trade in order to
    maintain its hyper-inflated rates?  Do we all carry around tweezers and a
    micro-scale in order to pay ours debts?  Would anyone who owned a gold
    bracelet suddenly become a rich man?  What happens when we want to buy
    products from other countries?  Do we kiss our gold goodbye?  Or does the
    government outlaw imports?  Are the world banking system and the rest of the
    world going to up and convert to a gold standard?  The concept is ludicrous,
    (as you recognise).               (CONT).

    Message: 80527
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/(cont.)
    Date: 12/13/91  Time: 21:42:46

    What if we choose to use our frns to buy goods from other countries which
    still honor them, for whatever reason, but particularly if they can buy
    more from those countries as frns than their gold exchange equivalents can
    buy in this one?  Does the government outlaw this?  What happens when all of
    the smart, rich people, the big businesses and individuals who operate on a
    global scale, decide to move their operations elsewhere?  Does the
    government outlaw this?  What about (as you mentioned) electronic wealth
    which exists as numbers in a computer in a bank somewhere (not necessarily
    in the U.S.) ?  Is this legally redefined in terms of its artificial "gold
    value"?  What does this do to international banking?  Who would put up with
    this?

    Someone recently mentioned tilting at windmills.  But proposals for a gold
    standard make Don Quixote look like wisdom incarnate.

    Message: 80529
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: In search of
    Subject: alias derivations
    Date: 12/13/91  Time: 23:41:08

    Well, we have eliminated as possible inspirations the extinct colonial
    animal, and the principle of fluid mechanics related to the famous
    gold crown legend.   What else is left?

    There's a screw by the same name used to raise water, but it seems
    unlikely that he's a prison guard who assists charitable drought-relief
    programs.

    The historical Archimedes is reported to have said, "Give me a place
    to stand on and I will move the Earth," which, given the amount of leverage
    required, would necessitate a pretty far-out position; this is entirely
    consistent.

    Message: 80531
    Author: $ Funky Alf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Snoopy
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 05:22:44

    To $ Paul Savage:

    Thanks for the reply Paul, I noticed your message posted time is
    05:41:00AM, did you see any Phoenix FOG?  < or perhaps SMOG?

    To $ Bill Burkett:

    Thanks for the reply Bill, why does it seem my messages always get
    buried by Archi-Medes messages?  I know, he's got a lot to say and is
    trying to plug his "America...Occupied!" book.
    To Melissa Dee, it wasn't speed logons I was doing, I was trying to make
    the "Twi-light Zone" message and SIG appear, it didn't work.
    Rod Williams, are you going to start taking anti-depressant pills like
    Archi-Medes suggested?
    Funky ALF

    Message: 80532
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/hate
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 05:54:07

     Why do you so hate to agree with me, Bill? Don't you realize that hate is
    one of themost self-destructive emotions that we as humans can feel? The
    object of your hate probably couldn't care less, or doesn't even feel your
    hate, while all the time you are being consumed with it.
     Rid yourself of that load of garbage, Bill! Learn to love me, even if it's
    hard to do! I'm not all THAT bad! Really!

    Message: 80533
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/one more time
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 05

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Funky Alf/pills

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I guess there are pills for everything and what I like to do is mix them all
     2:up into one capsule.  I take uppers and mix them with downers then add a
     3:'sideway' pill then a muscle relaxent and a muscle tightener and a few other
     4:chemicals including the lubricant from condoms.  Ah, it's great.  Now I am
     5:going out and commit suicide....don't try to talk me out of it because I am
     6:determined to die this time.  But, not to worry cause I'll be back in three
     7:days.
     8:                                Love  Rod
     9:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 80568

    Public Bulletin Board command:$RC

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 80533
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/one more time
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 05:59:20

     I said in my last post on this subject that, according to the definition of
    opinions that you presented, I, along with everyone else, do indeed make
    judgements. I judge artichokes, for example, to be unfit for human
    consumption. So there.

    Message: 80534
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hate Paul
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 08:08:48

    Oh, Paul.  I don't really hate you.  I just can't bring myself to like you
    much.  :)

    Message: 80535
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Buried Alf
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 08:09:20

    > why does it seem my messages always get buried by Archi-Medes
    > messages?

    Just quantity, I think.  What's it matter?  You got responses from the two
    of us who really matter, Paul and me.  Well, me anyway...

    Message: 80536
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: tungsten/elasticity
    Date: 12/14/91  Time: 22:19:00

    "Tungsten wire produced by the early processes often possessed satisfactory
    physical properties, but was ductile only at high temperatures and could
    not be cold worked.  By starting with tungsten powder of high purity,
    further elimination of impurities during processing, then maintaining a
    suitable grain structure by heat treatment and mechanical working, [W.D.]
    Collidge [who took out his first patent in 1909] succeeded in producing
    tungsten wire that was ductile at room temperature."

        -- from _Tungsten_ (American Chemical Society Monograph No. 94, Third
    Edition, 1955)

    There we go.

    I also note that tungsten alloys with platinum, iridium, and osmium, any of
    which would only need to be present in trace amounts in order to make up the
    .02 grams per cubic centimeter difference in relative density between
    tungsten and gold, assuming that such a difference would fall outside the
    tolerances to be expected of worn coins, and assuming that scales would
    be calibrated to this accuracy.

    Message: 80537
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hateful Bill
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 05:47:16

     Your value judgements based solely on the words you see on this BBS have a
    very y thin and unrealistic base, my friend. You have never met me, don't
    even have a clue as to who or what I am, with the very dubious exception of
    statements I have made here. I would certainly not wish to make friends (or
    enemies) on such a foundation.
     By the way, do you only smile in a prone position? Judging from the :), I
    would say that you typed that from your bed. (smile)

    Message: 80538
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: War!
    Subject: BILL!!! (80535)
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 05:48:03

     I MATTER!

    Message: 80539
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: War!
    Subject: Oh, Paul!
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 06:41:04

    > You have never met me...

    Actually we have met.

    > By the way, do you only smile in a prone position? Judging from
    > the :), I would say that you typed that from your bed. (smile)

    Of course.  How else do you expect me to stay warm on these chilly mornings?

    Message: 80540
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: War!
    Subject: Paul-TOE JAM!
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 06:41:25

    > I MATTER!

    BELLY BUTTON LINT!

    (Oh, all right.  You matter, Paul.  Sheesh.  Some people are so touchy this
    time of year...)

    Message: 80541
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Vote
    Subject: New Vote
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 10:13:33

            On...trees.....  the Christmas type that one places in his/her home
    at this time of year.   Some may not call them Christmas trees if they are
    not Christians, and I have tried to word it to make that allowance.

            Remember...ALL VOTE answers are PRIVATE... I can't tell who voted
    for what.... even if  I am at the monitor watching. The Vote is GREEKED at
    my end just like PRIVATE mail in the [P]ost office.  SO PLEASE take the few
    seconds to answer the [V]ote poll in the [M]ain menu.  This is ONLY for
    $tatus members.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80542
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Conspiracy defined
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:32:50

    BB> Well, Archimedes, after several months of listening to and studying
    BB> your posts, I have to confess I'm no closer to having faith in the
    BB> conspiracy theories you propose than I was.

    Perhaps, like someone else on this board -- was it Fred Smith? -- you are
    confused as to the meaning of "conspiracy."  To agree with the conspiracy
    theory, at least on a basic level, it is only necessary to agree with three
    statements:  1.  The monetary standard of intrinsic value established by the
    framers of the Constitution was honest -- not necessarily good, or bad, just
    simply "honest."  2.  The current monetary standard -- or lack of a monetary
    standard, take your pick -- is patently and flagrantly fraudulent and
    deprives the wage-earning segment of the public of their labor and their
    political clout.  3.  Two people or more conspired knowingly and
    intentionally to deprive us of our previous honest monetary standard and to
    replace it with our current fraudulent monetary standard.

    If you agree with those three statements, then you agree there was a
    conspiracy.  If you do not agree with all three, then perhaps it will be
    productive to discuss the statement or statements with which you disagree.
    Could you elaborate on this point?

    Message: 80543
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Leap of Faith
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:34:09

    BB> "Occupied!" spends a great deal of time documenting many minor points
    BB> which lead to a "so you can easily see" statement of conclusion which,
    BB> in fact, requires a great leap of faith to see.

    Okay.  That is a perceptual position; the points you consider "minor" are
    not minor to me; they led to the current fraudulent economic system.  I
    don't consider it "minor" when a man named John Maynard Keynes stands up and
    describes how to rip off a nation "in a manner not one man in a million can
    detect", and the economic system he describes is the economic system we now
    endure, and the economic system we now endure is called, by its adherents
    and detractors alike, "Keynesian Economics."  That doesn't require a "leap
    of faith" to me, but then perhaps Keynes was wrong: perhaps one man in a
    million *can* detect it.

    BB> I don't, however, consider the matter closed.  You may one day expose
    BB> that one piece of the puzzle that makes your whole theory fall into
    BB> place for me.  Until then, though, sorry.

    Thank you, and no need to apologize.  It doesn't matter whether *I* expose
    that one piece of the puzzle to you or not; it will be exposed to you
    eventually under circumstances you (all of us!) will find highly
    objectionable.  And probably sooner rather than later.  I'm just trying to
    explain who will do what to whom and who will get paid.

    Message: 80544
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Getting enough?
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:35:31

    BB> I'd still contend, though, that we're paying more AND getting more.
    BB> Whether we're getting ENOUGH more to justify the greater amounts we're
    BB> paying is, I think, a subjective matter.

    Well, not really, for two reasons:  The first is that if you study the
    subject long enough you can make mathematical computations which prove,
    fairly objectively, that current costs are not justified by what we're
    getting.  The second reason is that like most people, you are only seeing
    the immediate here and now situation.

    Example:  I just heard in a government propaganda report that the Cost of
    Living inflation rate was only (Gee Whiz!) two and a half percent for the
    last year.  Isn't that swell?  What that report fails to mention is that the
    Cost of Living inflation rate for the last year was somewhere between one
    hundred and five hundred times that.  You didn't see that kind of increase,
    though, because it was deferred into the national debt and the interest on
    the national debt.  Our children are going to pay it with the higher prices
    they have to pay for *their* Cost of Living.

    What you fail to see is the 1750% increase in the Cost of Living since 1945.
     Most of the inflated costs you and I pay now for our Cost of Living is the
    interest on the national debt our parents ran up under this fraudulent
    monetary system.

    Message: 80545
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Barter Economy
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:36:48

    FS> DO you *really* think a barter economy is workable on any sort of large
    FS> scale??  Even primitive tribes evolved the use of money when they
    FS> achieved any sort of "size" as barter is simply not a workable system
    FS> for "normal" business purposes on any wide scale.

    I thought for a moment you were trying to change the subject again, but then
    I realized you must be responding to my post about establishing a "barter
    community" to help buffer the effects of the major crash when it comes.  And
    no, as should be obvious from that post, I was not advocating a "barter
    economy" on any sort of a large scale.  I was advocating it on a small,
    community-sized scale for the purpose of mitigating the damaging effects of
    the crash of our fraudulent monetary system.

    I find it amusing that you can throw historical precedents at me like "Even
    primitive tribes evolved the use of money when they achieved any sort of
    size", and yet totally ignore the fact that as those primitive tribes
    evolved they also discovered nothing was worth a damn as "money" over the
    long term but gold and silver coin.

    Message: 80546
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Late 1800/1900 1/2
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:38:16

    FS> Are you seriouly suggesting that in the late 1800's and early 1900"s
    FS> when there was no such thing as rapid, countrywide travel, decent
    FS> houseing, many many jobs at the level of sweatshop, limited medical
    FS> care, limited educational opportunities, and on and on, that you can't
    FS> see that the standard of living OFF the gold standard has gone up more
    FS> or less steadily, indicating that MORE of us share in the TOTAL wealth
    FS> of the nation.

    Oh, good heavens, Fred!  You have the most shortsighted view of history I've
    ever encountered.  Do you mean to seriously suggest that the very specific
    things you've mentioned in the above paragraph were magically corrected, to
    everyone's enormous benefit, in 1934 with the removal of the gold standard?
    Or even in 1913, with the flagrantly illegal establishment of the FED, whose
    plan it was to deprive us of both our wealth *and* our self-government?

    Every single thing you mention in the above paragraph was being improved or
    corrected as technology progressed long before 1913 under an economic system
    based upon gold and silver coin.  The first distinctively American steam
    locomotive was developed by 1850 and rapid (for the time) countrywide travel
    was well established by the turn of the century.  I don't know your
    definition of "decent housing," but the construction trades were well
    established long before the turn of the century.

    Message: 80547
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Late 1800/1900 2/2
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:39:39

    Sure, many jobs were "sweatshop" jobs, but at least people *had* jobs --
    after the FED moved in and got control of the economy, one hell of a lot of
    people found themselves without jobs *or* housing!  Today, sweatshops are
    illegal, and people without the skills or work habits to get any other kind
    of a job expect the rest of us to support them.  Limited medical care?
    There were more improvements in the medical arts in the 100 years prior to
    1913 than since -- that's when most of the principles and inventions upon
    which our *modern* medical care is based were established!  Limited
    educational opportunities?  Those people who chose to be educated prior to
    1913 received one heck of a lot better education than 99% of the schoolkids
    today -- and on less money and with a better understanding of our
    Constitutional Republic and its principle of *limited* government.  Today
    most high school graduates -- heck, most *university* graduates! -- are
    functionally illiterate!

    FS> In a nutshell, you don't need to look at "documentation" to see what is
    FS> obvious to the unaided eye.

    Perhaps you have a mote in your unaided eye.  Perhaps you should wash it out
    and have a closer look at history.  It's obvious that what you think is
    obvious is not supported by the facts.  But then, perhaps you've always
    believed the government line of propaganda in the government school system
    -- that supposedly 'unlimited' educational opportunity.

    Message: 80548
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Gold circulation
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:41:27

    FS> Perhaps you can explain how a wealthy man has to put gold into
    FS> circulation if his Wealth is a big apartment building and he collects
    FS> rent from the tenents every month sufficent to pay for all he needs?

    Under a bimetallic standard, if he has to "pay for all he needs" then he
    has to pay in minted gold or silver coins, just as his tenants have to pay
    their rent in minted gold or silver coins.  What's so difficult to
    understand?

    Of course he also has to pay taxes on that income, since that income is
    indeed "income" -- i.e., profit.  His tenants, on the other hand, who may
    earn their living by wage rather than subsisting on profit, are secure from
    having to pay taxes upon their cash flow.  Thus they have as much economic
    clout, are as much of the "economic elite," as you put it, as he is.  Thus
    he has to regard them as "customers" upon whom his livelihood depends,
    rather than treating them as mere trash whom he is deigning to favor with
    shelter.

    Does that offend your elitist sense of order?

    Message: 80549
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: "Rule Book"
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:42:50

    FS> The thing you left out though is that while most all of us (Archimedes
    FS> excepted) "believe" in the "rule book" for speed limits, ...

    Please be good enough to not put beliefs in my keyboard.  Note that I drive
    professionally (a passenger car, and not a taxi) and that I have nearly
    200,000 miles accrued in Maricopa County in the last four years without a
    ticket or traffic accident, driven among the highest percentage of
    aggressively incompetent and unqualified clowns that ever slid behind a
    wheel.  I think I am qualified to judge both the validity of the so-called
    "rule book" and, by virtue of my separate study of the history of law,
    qualified to judge the extent that rule book will be allowed to abuse my
    inherited and unalienable rights.

    In short, I believe in the "rule book."  I just don't believe it should be
    applied according to the rules of equity, where inherited and unalienable
    rights do not stand as a bulwark against gov't oppression.  I am therefore
    prepared to prevent its use as an equity tool of oppression if necessary.
    [I am also opposed to latter-day lay Biblical interpretations being used to
    control or manipulate others of different beliefs.  Those others will be
    accountable for what they do, but not to me.]

    But this is not to interfere or put my two cents worth in to your religious
    discussion with someone else.  Please continue as you wish.

    Message: 80550
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Compounding evil
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:44:30

    FS> I don't know of anyone who is stashing FRNs under their mattress in the
    FS> deluded belief that they are putting something valuble under there.

    I do, and like you, I regard them as fools.  I know others who keep them in
    banks and let others, including gov't, violate their inherited and
    unalienable rights to their own property and privacy with impunity, and I
    regard them also as fools.  I know others who, having established a minimum
    cache of survival equipment and training, convert them to gold and silver
    coin as a hedge against economic collapse.  These people I regard as pretty
    smart and learning more all the time.

    FS> In todays USA it is EVERY easy to use virtually NO FRNs - you can pay
    FS> everything by check or charge card thereby completely eliminating all
    FS> connection with FRNs.

    Oh.  Right.  You take all the bankster gov't's usury and corruption
    represented by the worthless frn, which causes you to owe more than you have
    by simply being in possession of them and trading with them, and you
    compound that usury and corruption a million-fold by using checks and credit
    cards denominated in "dollars" but actually representing
    compounding-interest debt in frns.  Real bright, Fred.

    Message: 80551
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Stuffing frns
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:45:52

    FS> Instead of stuffing FRNs under the mattress you just let you electronic
    FS> *money* accumulate in the bank on their ledgers.

    Sorry.  I'd rather let *real* money accumulate on *my* ledger and in *my*
    stash.  Why should I let a bank use it and thereby waive all my Fifth
    Amendment right to privacy in my financial affairs and endeavours?  (And,
    incidentally, waive all right to ownership of that real money if some gov't
    lackey decides I'm not using it for some gov't-approved purpose?)  Why
    should I do that, Fred?  Why would *anyone* who is not the village idiot, do
    that?

    You like putting your worthless frns in the bank so much, Fred, go down and
    withdraw about ten thousand of them and then fly across country, to say, New
    York and back with them in your pocket or in your luggage.  I would suggest
    you have about a 50-50 chance of having your money confiscated by the law
    before you get back.  You have a greater chance of being mugged by so-called
    representatives of the law than you do by a Harlem carpet rodent.  I *know*
    you won't be allowed to leave the bank with your money without being
    required to fill out an IRS form justifying your withdrawal of it and
    stating your intended use for it.

    Like I said:  What kind of village idiot does someone have to be to
    voluntarily allow themselves to be in that position?

    Message: 80552
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Easier
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:47:06

    FS> And to look at it from another standpoint, wouldn't it be EASIER for
    FS> people to just forget about FRNs having ANY intrinsic value then to try
    FS> and use GOLD COINS which would be an impossible situation.

    Lots of things are easier in life than standing up for principle.  It's
    easier to be a slave to the banksters; it's easier to enjoy the tranquillity
    of servitude than to engage in the animating contest of freedom; it's easier
    to let gov't (representing the banksters) to run your life than it is to
    require gov't to live up to the requirements of the U.S. Constitution and
    thereby fulfill the one, single, exclusive purpose of gov't: to protect the
    inherited and unalienable rights of the people.

    Besides, I don't see anything "impossible" about the "situation" of gov't
    obeying Constitutional law.  I think it would be a great improvement.

    FS> As far as I can see, the only way your system could really work would
    FS> be for GOLD coins to be THE units of exchange and for the gvt to be
    FS> completely disconnected with any valuatin placed on them.

    You're getting close.  Make that "Gold and Silver Coins" and you have a
    Constitutional monetary standard like the one stolen from us which "really
    work"ed for 120 years.  I'm glad you are finally beginning to see the value
    of what I've been saying.

    Message: 80553
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Almost got it...
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:48:12

    FS> If you allow the gvt to involve itself in setting the value of GOLD
    FS> then you have not really changed much of anything.

    You are almost there, Fred.  You've almost acquired the truth.  One more
    minor little point, which is nonetheless crucial, and you will have it
    nailed down and we will be in agreement.  The point is this:  When gov't
    passed laws defining the "dollar" as 371.25 grains of Silver .9 fine, and as
    25.8 grains of Gold .9 fine, gov't did *not* "set the value" of gold or
    silver.  Government merely tied the VALUE of the DOLLAR to GOLD and to
    SILVER.

    The VALUE of gold and silver is still determined in the marketplace.  And
    the dollar, tied to the value of gold and silver in the marketplace, follows
    suit.  And since, in the marketplace, gold and silver remains -- has ALWAYS
    REMAINED -- stable in terms of its purchasing power both here and overseas,
    the DOLLAR remains stable.

    Message: 80554
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: FORCING gov't...
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:49:15

    FS> Again, you entire argument revolves around somehow FORCING the gvt to
    FS> do something and preventing them from ever UNDOING it.

    Well, that *was* and *is* the function of the U.S. Constitution.  It created
    gov't, and it conveyed certain limited powers to gov't, and it prohibited
    gov't from exercising powers not conveyed.  It's just that we, the people,
    have been lax in demanding specific performance from gov't.

    FS> IN reagard to a GOLD standard, even that would only work if we were
    FS> isolationists.

    I think it's great the way the penny is finally beginning to drop for you.
    The framers of the Constitution clearly intended that the gov't created by
    it should "resist foreign entanglements."  Being "isolationists" doesn't
    mean we don't trade with other countries.  It just means we stay the hell
    out of their problems and don't give away the store to bail them out.

    Message: 80555
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Mano-a-mano
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:50:37

    FS> I'd like to see you feed cattle with your "knowledge" or sleep inside
    FS> your "skills" or cross a creek with your "education" instead of a
    FS> bridge.

    Okay!  Sounds like fun!  You want to arrange an expedition into the desert
    or into mountain country or into snow country, each of us equipped with
    nothing but a Bowie knife, with the objectives of 1. feeding a herd of
    cattle; 2. providing shelter and food and water for ourselves, and 3.
    crossing a creek -- better yet, how about a major river? -- to reach an
    objective, and see which one of us comes out alive and with our objectives
    met?  You with your apartment building and the land it's sitting on, or I
    with my "knowledge" and "skills" and "education"?

    FS> It seems that you get fa*ther and farther removed from reality with
    FS> your theories.

    If you think your apartment building and land and perceived "wealth" is
    going to help you in the slightest in a fair contest mano-a-mano against
    knowledge and skills and education, Fred, then it is not I who is getting
    farther and farther removed from reality.  [And if you use your so-called
    "wealth" to arrange a helicopter to haul you out, I'll bring it down and
    leave the wreckage for future generations of backpackers to ponder over.]

    Message: 80556
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Joining the enemy
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:51:40

    FS> ... they tend to not be among the economically elite.  That is not a
    FS> condemnation of their ideas but it indicates to me that they are NOT
    FS> able to understand how things are REALLY working around them.  [and]

    FS> ... instead of acquiring some wealth and gaining a position of power in
    FS> order to actaully CHANGE the system.

    Right, Fred.  The town has been taken over by a gang of thieves and bunko
    artists who are stripping the citizens of their wealth produced by their
    industry and labor, and if I want to restore the town to its rightful and
    Constitutional status of a town "of law and not of men" then I should become
    one of those thieves and bunko artists until I gain enough of the
    townspeople's wealth to change the system back to what it is supposed to be.

    That's as stupid and counter-productive as the idea of borrowing one's self
    out of debt.

    Message: 80557
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Plugging...
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 16:52:33

    FA> I know, he's got a lot to say and is trying to plug his "America...
    FA> Occupied!" book.

    Sorry if my posts have been "burying" yours, but I wanted to correct your
    impression that I am trying to "plug" America...Occupied:  I am not, because
    it will probably never be a book.  Just about the time I got around to
    writing that rough draft, Don McElvaney published his final draft and a
    couple of other authors did also.  Mine was a day late and a dollar short.
    No big deal; I wasn't doing it for the money anyway.  I was doing it because
    no one else seemed to have done a general overview of the myriad of scams
    perpetrated upon us and how they all fit together, and it needed to be done.

    Message: 80558
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Democrat Debate
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 18:29:30

    I watched the 90 minute debate between the Democrat candidates. Kerrey
    impressed me the most. Clinton impressed me the least.

    Message: 80559
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Green/SOmething
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:24:09

    RE: Standardizing to work hours
    Sure but I still see the same thing - Back "then" many
    people worked 60+ hours a week and lived at near poverty
    levels, by todays standards.  They often lived 3 generations
    to a home and had only one car, no tv, just a radio, a small
    icebox, one suit of clothes.  Today, for 40 hours of work
    the average person has far more "stuff".  I'll agree that
    many people's priorities have changed and the "stuff" may
    not be what some think worthwhile to lust after but that is
    not what is the concern of this discussion.  In terms of
    what we get in exchange for an equal amount of work, I think
    we clearly get MORE today.

    Message: 80560
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Matlock/Something
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:24:47

    You hit the nail on the head with the question of "does the
    gvt prevent free trade?"  That and all those other problems
    mentioned will occur under a gold standard UNLESS the US
    reverts to isolationism.  The gold standard of old worked
    only because communication was slow, the average person
    didn't know what was going on, and we were fairly
    isolationist.  The only way a gold standard can work today
    is with a NEW WORLD ORDER.

    Message: 80561
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: ARch 1/5
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:25:40

        Lets return to reality.  Gold and silver have NOT been
    the medium of exchange that was historically the most used
    system.  As I mentioned before, Tobbacco had a longer run
    then gold and silver.  And there simply is no way there is
    enough gold and silver to use it as currency not to mention
    all the problems there would be even if there was enough of
    it (counting, wieghing, sorting, etc.)  It still seems to me
    (broken record alert) that you are attacking the medium of
    exchange system when that is NOT the thing that is the
    problem. The problem remains out of control gvt.  I don't
    recall which economist it was but he made the point that
    when we have inflation we want a stable currency (which
    seems to be your permanent position) and when we have a
    stable non-inflationary economy (stagnant, like now) we want
    monetary inflation. As I realize, and surely you must too,
    we will not soon be comming to any consenses, not even
    economists can agree, and I think most of them have a better
    understanding of it all then either of us and yet they can't
    even come to consensus.

    Message: 80562
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch 2/5
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:26:22

    Why does anyone have to pay in bimetalic or whatever the
    hell you all it, gold and silver??  WHy can't the tenants
    write him a check which he will deposit and then he will pay
    his bills by check.  I really see no reason at all why
    anyone, except fools and crooks, would be bothering with
    gold and silver coins, given all the attendent problems with
    them, when they could use checks and "plastic".  I see NO
    reason why ANYONE would have to use a gold currency UNLESS
    the gvt outlaws the use of checks, plastic, and the like.
    Is THAT what you are proposeing????  When are you going to
    notice that 1991 is NOT 1913 or 1933.  The problem is NOT
    the monetary system, it is the GVT!!!  You can't fix the
    monetary system without fixing the gvt.  And if you fix the
    gvt the monetary system becomes a moot point anyways.

    Message: 80563
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch 3/5
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:27:02

           Oh dear.  So we are into the survialists with there cache of
    gold and silver to use when the economic holocoust arrives.  Given
    that very very few people will have any gold or silver to use what
    makes you think it will be the "currency" of choice??  And the idea
    that the important thing to be prepared for in an economic
    holocaust is to have some gold on hand seems to be missing the
    boat.  There will be far far more problems to contend with then
    what to use as currency.  As you may have heard, you can't eat
    gold, or fill you tank with it, etc.  The most likely scenario I
    expect would be that your gold supply would VERY quickly be used up
    if you tried to get by with any "affordable" cache since the farmer
    will expect to get something more then a fingernail clipping of
    gold when you buy from him.  I'd be suprised if the average
    survivalist gold supply lasted more then a week or two assuming he
    could even find someone who would take it.  Another thing you
    totally ignore is that in this economic holocaust there would be NO
    ONE setting the value of your gold - no one would know what it is
    worth.  And whatever it was worth to citizen A it might only be
    worth a tenth of that to citizen B. Tell me, when the holocaust
    comes, how many ounces of gold will it take to pay for a pound of
    butter???  And I hope you aren't going to base your answer on how
    many FRNs it takes now!!!

    Message: 80564
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch 4/5
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:27:47

    The gvt cannot be both completely removed from control of
    the value of currency and also be the one who sets it's
    value thru the constitution.  EIther the money supply is
    DIVORCED from gvt control or it is not.  I'm suprised you
    are pushing a halfway measure and one that would not last 2
    years.  This is NOT the early 1900's!!!  THings have
    changed, the world has changed.
          And in terms of the gvt not setting the value of GOLD
    but merely setting the value of the dollar in terms of gold,
    that is only possible if the supply of BOTH FRNs *and* GOLD
    is fixed and unchangable and it STILL depends on GVT
    control.  That is PRECISELY why the gold standard fell.  The
    fictional balance between the value of dollars and gold
    could no longer be maintained - Times they were a-changin.

    Message: 80565
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch 5/5
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 19:28:16

    On what basis do you claim that gold has remained "stable"
    in it's purchasing power??  I  don't know anyone who has
    purchased anything with gold in quite a while so how do you
    make that determination?

    Message: 80566
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fixing the gvt...???
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 20:35:32

            Back when I was a kid, my dad had stacks of Japanese money.  Most of
    it in un-opened wrapped bundles.  I mean loads of it, he gave me bundles to
    take to school and GIVE out.  This WAS a medium of exchange, however, the
    gvt as you might say got 'fixed' and it was all worthless.  Had it been
    silver or gold, it would have value.  Had it not had all that writting on it
    it could have been used for note paper.... but, it was totaly worthless.
    Just like our dollars would be worthless if we fixed this government, or it
    fell from power, or we get absorbed into a one world government.

            A medium of exchange is only as good as the government when that
    medium has no real value.   I feel we have been shafted by our gvt.  If you
    save your hard earned frns you have earned today for tomorrow when you
    retire, they will buy FAR LESS.  I will choose to save my $$ in another
    form..  Thank you!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S.  I don't see where Gold has gone 'UP' in value, I see where the 'green
    back' has gone 'down'.    Why would anyone in their right mind want to save
    FRNS?????

    Message: 80567
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred's butter...
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 20:45:45

            How many FRNS will it take to buy this butter?   FRNS don'r even
    burn clean, but could be used for heating your hands for a few minutes over
    an open pit fire.  At least gold is a valued mineral, and when it really
    gets down to it... almost everyone will accept it.  I WILL and HAVE!
    There, you now know someone!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80568
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Funky Alf/pills
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 20:56:31

    I guess there are pills for everything and what I like to do is mix them all
    up into one capsule.  I take uppers and mix them with downers then add a
    'sideway' pill then a muscle relaxent and a muscle tightener and a few other
    chemicals including the lubricant from condoms.  Ah, it's great.  Now I am
    going out and commit suicide....don't try to talk me out of it because I am
    determined to die this time.  But, not to worry cause I'll be back in three
    days.
                                    Love  Rod

    Public Bulletin Board command:EC

    You chose Chit Chat

    Subject:Modem trouble

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I have been getting a lot of line noise of late and I've just traced it to
     2:my modem.  I am only on this trip to do a test.....testing, testing.
     3:
     4:I will make my comments later.
     5:
     6:                                        Rod
     7:end

    Edit command:S

    Saving message...
    The message is 80569

    Public Bulletin Board command:R80569

    Message: 80569
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Modem trouble
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 21:03:33

    I have been getting a lot of line noise of late and I've just traced it to
    my modem.  I am only on this trip to do a test.....testing, testing.

    I will make my comments later.

                                            Rod

    Message: 80571
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Archemedes
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 22:58:15

    I read your answer to me, found it interesting and found you interesting.

    It sounds like you want someone to be a gun toting revolutionary, going out
    and shooting anyone who remotely reseMlbles the establishment.

    Starting in January the AZ for NORML organization will be meeting at
    Metropophobobia, 128 E. Taylor, Phoenix.  The second Saturday of each month
    will be set aside at the bookstore for those meetings.  Two P.M. starting
    time.

    I plan on attending in order to see what their exact wants are and then I
    will decide whether to join them.  I have been looking for a group to get
    involved in and it looks like it is the performing arts people in downtown
    Phoenix.

    Songs are being written, buttons, shirts and refrigerator magnets are being
    produced, to name a few.  It's a growing industry.

    A lot of us joke about death so you have got a false reading with me.  I
    think it is a joke.  I don't go around with my head hung low, threatening
    suicide.....not at all.  But then again, I mention it because I perceive it
    (the thought if it) as a rather large mental block which keeps people back
    from better life.  Nothing is in dying.  It'll probably be the funnest thing
    you'll do in this life.    Gold is yucky.  Who needs it?

    Message: 80572
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod on Archemedes
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 23:22:48

            Where does Archemedes mention about shooting ANYONE?  Show me the
    post please!

            However Rod, he has you pegged... You have been nothing but negative
    for all the years I have known you.  You now are in denial of this and claim
    you were 'joking' ??? Maybe you should learn when to joke and when to be
    serious and help solve the problems rather then hoping someone else will do
    it for you.

            If you truly want to help,  listen in and let's hear your REAL
    ideas... and 'can' the jokes.  I know you can do it.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S.  If you need the outlet, I can give you a JOKe SIG.

    Message: 80573
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred Smith
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 23:28:26

    I've been reading your messages oThey seems logical to me
    My line noise is back again so I'd better do some more tracing.
    I just got on again because I've been reading Fred Smith messages off line
    anddecided I'd better comment.

    Message: 80574
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff/Shooting
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 23:56:28

    Read 80555 -- he talks about "taking down" a helicopter which would contain
    Fred (or somebody flying in to pick up Fred).

    Message: 80575
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:16:35

    Thanks.

    Message: 80576
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Archemedes (1-5)
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:17:21

    Suppose a giant economic collapse occurred right now, hypothetically
    speaking of course.  Say that John has saved 50 ounces of gold and
    Steve has saved 25,000 dollars in FRNs, under the mattress.  Bob didn't
    save a damn thing.  All he had was his last pay stub.

    What may happen to these men and their families and how their lives
    will cause an effect that will be felt by all will be dealt with?  Who
    will survive and who will die?  Will it be fun?  Many questions will we
    have.  Where to find a cow to kill to get a hunk of its flesh will
    perhaps be asked?  Who brought the matches?

    Will there be order after a large scale economic collapse?  If so
    then the scenario will take a different course than if there is panic
    and chaos among the masses.

    John, depending upon John's character and the way the collapse happens
    would have to work at making his gold save him from the harshness of
    being homeless and depending upon St. Vincent dePaul's Dining Room for
    food.  Or living in a wilderness area and trying to make a go of
    survival.  It would depends also on John's social rank.  I guess one
    would have to have guns in order to protect that gold.  Try to buy an
    island with a full stocked Circle K on it, I suppose.

    Message: 80577
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Archemedes (2 of 5)
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:18:05

    Buy a lot of food?  Start a garden?  I don't think I would want to be
    stuck with a lot of gold.  Gold, on one level may be better for
    bartering than hog butts until we can get something going, something
    that we agree upon that is workable for the survival of the flesh
    eating animals.  Something equitable, something fun.  But if a social
    order were devised that was altruistic in nature then gold or any
    precious metal would not figure into the system except for the
    aforementioned plating of wire or the drilling of hard surfaces and
    use in science and manufacturing.
    I thought that tribes of old, when gold was present in their
    environment, used it for artsy works that were pretty, even beautiful
    to behold and in that lay the value.  Anything that was beautiful was
    desired by the masses although I suppose the tribe shared the beauty.
    It was probably the neighboring tribe that sought to own it.  Gold did
    become valuable in that sense.  Some tribes killed other tribes for
    it, like what the Spanish soldiers and monks did to the people of the
    western hemisphere as one example.
    The guy with the FRNs may do well, again depending just how it goes
    down.  If slowly, then people will give value to them but inflation or
    deflation will occur, probably both....depending on the item.  We have
    been trained to give value to the paper, we've been raised with it.

    Message: 80578
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 3 of 5
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:18:46

    I'm an atheist but I still occasionally refer to our upcoming solstice
    season as Christmas.  I was born with it.  I still get cravings for
    bacon and eggs, milk, cheese and partly cooked flesh.

    As I hoped I pointed out before, I don't care what this 'made-up
    thing' we call money is backed by.  It doesn't matter.  All that
    matters is that we have a good society and until humankind (oxymoron?)
    learns some real truths about ourselves we are going to stay mired in
    the mud.  If your revolution succeeded and your people took the places
    of the big politicians and the lawmakers then someone would start a
    revolution against you because you'd do the same damn thing, start
    stealing from the people because now you are in a position to.
    There's always a conspiracy from the different sides.  All men in this
    time are corruptible because it is the nature of the animal.  Living
    lofty ideas is different than just stating them.

    I want to join the thinkers, the people like Carl Sagan, Ted Turner
    and others who see this earth as a small space ship that a lot of
    different things share.  Gold, blah.

    Now Bob, who doesn't have a farthing may have an easier time of it
    than the others.  Who's to
    But it should be interesting.

    Message: 80579
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 4 of 5
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:19:36

    Keeping the human animal alive at any cost sounds like some kind of
    goal.  It may be rough and many may die but who's to say they weren't
    the lucky ones?  The act of dying is a lot like a kid who is waiting
    for their birthday and it always seems so far away, like "it'll take
    forever" then bang!, it's the night before and at last it is here.  It
    wasn't so long after all.  Well, the same goes for the individual
    death of each species on the planet, the planet itself in fact.  How
    do you want your life to go?  Sitting on a 9 to 5 with 2 weeks off,
    going to church to worship your favorite master or what?  Seeing
    history, being and feeling history or hiding in a closet until death
    steals quietly your way?

    We are very expendable and it should be that way.  We are not sacred
    nor is death the least bit important.  It is just another natural
    act.  You know, an equivalent of a trillon-billion years will come and
    go without a flutter that any one thing lived or died.  And there is a
    totally excellent chance that life will still be around.  Hope it is
    not gold based.  Hope we've come of age by then.

    Message: 80580
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: 5 of 5
    Date: 12/16/91  Time: 02:20:11

    The primary reason that I have been mentioning death in my messages is
    for people who do not know me.  I like it to be understood that all we
    are doing is trying to make our bodies comfortable up to our death
    then not much else matters unless you care about relations and want to
    find the correct way to make society better as a whole.

    I think it is a waste that people stuff grease and slop into
    themselves on a near continuous basis thinking all the while where
    their next meal is coming from.  That we value the human body so much
    that we are willing to do almost anything to keep it alive on this
    planet.

    I think that life has the entire universe to explore and that we
    surely have a wide range of sheaths to place upon our selves.  And the
    best part is that eternity actually exists.

    Now do you see where I am coming from?  Why accept carp when silky
    waves of enormous colours await us somewhere in the future.  Why worry
    about losing something that is basically lost anyway?  I don't.  But I
    have this curiosity deep within me that draws me toward the unknown,
    the future.  I am brave and realistic enough to know that 15-30 earth
    years is but a pittance of the future.  I am brave enough to say, take
    me, I'm yours.                        -Rod

    STOre House of Votes Bulletin Board command:$C

    Press [A] to abort

    Message: 27
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Old [V]ote
    Subject: AIDS and the Media
    Date: 12/15/91  Time: 09:58:41

    AIDS just won't go away.  And neither will our children.  Is education the
    way to make sure the twain never meet?

    [A] I wish the media would just shut up about AIDS!  It's an
        adult matter and our kids shouldn't be burdened with it.

    [B] I think the media's doing a pretty good job in educating the
        public, including children, about AIDS.

    [C] The media isn't doing nearly enough.  Our children are our
        future and it's much better to tell them early about AIDS
        than to wait until it's too late.

    [D] The media is over reacting with hyped facts and figures
        But, our kids should be told without frightening them.
        It is 'mostly' a shared drug needle and gay disease.

    [E] I just don't care one way or the other.

    Poll results:
    [A] 0    [B] 6    [C] 7    [D] 8    [E] 0