### Apollo BBS Archive - November 18 - 25, 1989

    Message: 62241
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike/store wars
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 13:50:02

    Well, the ad did claim that the products represented both regular and sale
    priced items.  Of course, it did not state the ratio...

    Message: 62242
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/puzzles
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 14:10:00

    Well, I am not suffering any delusions about the purpose of logic puzzles.
    However, this does not invalidate my complaints about the absurd framing of
    these puzzles.  If the purpose was to randomly select from equally qualified
    applicants, then a puzzle becomes superfluous.  If not, then the
    puzzlemaker must endeavor to be fair to all.  After all, one doesn't
    design school tests so that some students cannot solve the problems, while
    others can.
    Furthermore, if qualifications fall outside the scope of these puzzles, why
    does the text of Zak's puzzle plainly state that "The person who had to
    choose one of the three applicants for the job devised a test to see which
    of the three was smartest." ?  Information given in a logic puzzle should be
    logically consistent.  It is possible to design logic puzzles in a manner
    that eliminates these contradictory elements.
    As for my "two assumptions too many":
    (1) The assumption that those responsible (for the test) wanted it to be so,
    even though they are using a logic puzzle instead of any realistic method.
    -- The whole process of administering a logic puzzle (or any other kind of
    TEST) implies the need to cull applicants by their wit; this necessitates
    fairness for the test to have any meaning.  If it was a random choice, no
    test would be necessary.  Furthermore, your phrasing implies that logic
    tests are somehow an invalid or unrealistic means by which to test
    applicants; at a certain stage in the examination of applicants, this is by
    no means necessarily the case.

    (2) That those responsible did, in fact, come up with a fair puzzle.  This
    is not a herculean task, given the artificiality and complete freedom to
    manipulate elements which a logic puzzle designer has.

    If the puzzle was a puzzle, then there would by definition be a legitimate
    means of winning (which there was).  If the puzzle was fair, then each
    contestant would have the same chance, based on external factors, of winning
    (which they did not).  The front player could not logically conclude that
    the puzzle was fair and at the same time conclude that it had no solution.
    Furthermore, it is really us, and not the imaginary players, which are
    called upon to solve the puzzle.  We start with the assumption that there is
    in fact a legitimate puzzle to be solved (that there is a solution).  We
    then work with a meta-puzzle -- which contains the puzzle which the players
    faced imbedded in the text of a larger puzzle (more information).  It is
    necessary that the meta-puzzle be logically consistent, not merely the terms
    of the pseudo-puzzle (a puzzle for non-existent players).

    Message: 62244
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dean/Strunk
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 14:32:36

    The book has been revised several times since Strunk's death.  The edition I
    have, which is coauthored by E.B. White, was published in 1979.  It is a new
    edition, not merely a reprint. Not having seen Todd Reese's answer, I could
    not comment on its style.  Of course, I doubt Mr. Reese was attempting to
    write good prose, anymore than I was.  The point is not whether  the answer
    could be given without using any masculine pronouns -- obviously it can,
    awkward as it may be to  repetitively refer to asexual entities -- but that
    it is perfectly acceptable (and perhaps even stylistically preferable in
    certain cases) to use masculine pronouns to refer to individuals of
    indeterminant sex; and that one cannot infer a sexual bias from such usage.

    Message: 62245
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 17:02:21

    You know, Dean, she's right.

    Message: 62246
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Puzzles
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 17:41:45

    All this puzzle-talk is interesting, but I think it's time to move on to a
    new puzzle.  Here is a somewhat easier one:

         There is a bum in downtown Phoenix who just *loves* cigars.
    Unfortunately, he has no money.  However, he often finds cigar butts in
    gutters-n-such, and sometimes, when a craving hits, he spends hours
    searching for these butts.  One day, he manages to find a grand total of 25
    cigar butts!

         It takes 5 butts to make a full cigar.

    The question is, that night, how many cigars does the bum smoke?
    (Assuming he uses what he found.)

    The first correct answer wins...a cigar.

    Message: 62247
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 19:37:46

    Out of 25 cigar butts he first makes 5 cigars.  Then out of the five cigar
    butts left, he makes one more cigar.  The answer then is 6 cigars.  But man,
    I would sure hate to have to smoke that last cigar!

    Message: 62248
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: sigh
    Date: 11/18/89  Time: 20:22:07

    That was too easy. Too bad Bob posted it on the main board, or we could all
    have a cigar, courtesy of Zak.

    Message: 62249
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 00:19:56

    Job well done.  When do you want your cigar?

    Message: 62250
    Author: Penile Member
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Zakey
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 00:54:23

    I thought you said your sister was highly intelligent.

    Message: 62251
    Author: Penile Member
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Zak: Duuuuuuuh!
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 01:00:27

    That's an easy one.

    Message: 62252
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak's latest
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 06:07:40

     I won't even try to answer that, since the prize is a cigar, and if there's
    anything I detest more than cigarette smoke, it has to be that foul, filthy,
    absolutely obscene smell of cigar smoke.
     If Iwere to answer it, I suppose the answer would be none, since the bum
    would either be sleeping that night, or some other cigar loving bum would
    have killed him off for the loot. (Just something silly to lighten the
    load.)

    Message: 62253
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 08:27:17

    Why are you constantly giving us commercials on how much you hate smoking?
    You have been injecting it into non-related posts. Could you lighten up just
    a tad? Geeze. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62254
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last/Ann on Paul
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 09:00:50

            Paul and I will 'lighten up' if you will quit 'lighting up'!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62255
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak's butts
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 13:31:49

    That was an interesting puzzle, and despite what others have said, was not
    immediately apparent to me.  Perhaps I shouldn't have said that...
    Anyway, I was too late.  More!

    Message: 62257
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/62245
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 13:41:44

    Cute.

    Actually, I'm a hermaphrodite, so feel free to use your choice of pronouns.
    (There goes James Hawley's "spore" theory.)

    Message: 62258
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Chaos
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 14:08:16

    "Early in his (Benoit Mandelbrot) time at IBM . . . he came upon a practical
    problem of intense concern to his corporate patron.  Engineers were
    perplexed by the problem of noise in telephone lines used to transmit
    information from computer to computer.  Electric current carries the
    information in discrete packets, and engineers knew that the stronger they
    made the current the better it would be at drowning out noise.  But they
    found that some spontaneous noise could never be eliminated.  Once in a
    while it would wipe out a piece of signal, creating an error.
       Although by its nature the transmission noise was random, it was well
    known to come in clusters.  Periods of errorless communication would be
    followed by periods of errors.  By talking to the engineers, Mandelbrot soon
    learned that there was a piece of folklore about the errors that had never
    been written down, because it matched none of the standard ways of thinking:
    the more closely they looked at the clusters, the more complicated the
    patterns of errors seemed.  Mandelbrot provided a way of describing the
    distribution of errors that predicted exactly the observed pattern.  For one
    thing, it made it impossible to calculate an average rate of errors -- an
    average number of errors per hour, or per minute, or per second.  On
    average, in Mandelbrot's scheme, errors approached infinite sparseness.
       His description worked by making deeper and deeper separations between
    periods of clean transmission, and periods of errors.  Suppose you divide a
    day into hours.  An hour might pass with no errors at all.  Then an hour
    might contain errors.  Then an hour might pass with no errors.

    "But suppose you then divided the hour with errors into smaller periods of
    twenty minutes.  You would find that here, too, some periods would be
    completely clean, while some would contain a burst of errors.  In fact,
    Mandelbrot argued -- contrary to intuition -- that you could never find a
    time during which errors were scattered continuously.  Within any burst of
    errors, no matter how short, there would always be periods of completely
    error free tranmission." (is this true?) "Furthermore, he discovered a
    consistent geometric relationship between the bursts of errors and the
    spaces of clean transmission.  On scales of an hour or a second, the
    proportion of error free periods to error ridden periods remained constant.
    . . . Engineers had no framework for understanding Mendelbrot's description,
    but mathematicians did.  In effect, Mandelbrot was duplicating an abstract
    construction known as the Cantor set. . . To make a cantor set, you start
    with the interval of numbers from zero to one, represented by a line
    segment.  Then you remove the middle third." (Question: how can the term
    'middle third' be applied to infinity?) "That leaves two segments, and you
    remove the middle third of each. . . that leaves four segments, and you
    remove the middle third of each -- and so on to infinity.  What remains?  A
    strange "dust" of points, arranged in clusters, infinitely many yet
    infinitely sparse.  Mandelbrot was thinking of transmission errors as a
    cantor set arranged in time.

    "This highly abstract description had practical weight for scientists trying
    to decide between different strategies of controlling error.  In particular,
    it meant that, instead of trying to increase signal strength to drown out
    more and more noise, engineers should settle for a modest signal, accept the
    inevitibility of errors and use a strategy of redundancy to catch and
    correct them.  Bursts of error had always sent the engineers looking for a
    man sticking a screwdriver somewhere.  But Mandelbrot's scaling patterns
    suggested that the noise would never be explained on the basis of specific
    local events."

    Message: 62261
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beck/Chaos
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 22:27:08

    I like it.

    HB

    Message: 62262
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pascal/sisters
    Date: 11/19/89  Time: 22:28:20

    Heather or Hazel could also have been born on Leap Day and be real sisters.
    Then, one's numerical age would be one-fourth of her chronological age and
    they could be the same.

    HB

    Message: 62264
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Penile Member
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 00:30:09

    What a dick.

    Message: 62265
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ms. Brown/last
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 00:45:08

    Hmmm... the key phrase was "the same age (give or take a few minutes)."
    Minutes are a form of chronological, not numerical  measurement.  If their
    ages *could* be a few minutes apart, it would have to be their chronological
    ages. If they both had the numerical age of 11, but one was chronologically
    44, they could not be "a few minutes" apart, even if one had been born at
    11:59 p.m. on leap day, and the other had been born at 12:01 a.m. the day
    after a leap day, since they would be different years and thus would be over
    half a million minutes apart in age.

    It was a nice try, though.

    (Ever seen Siskel & Ebert's "At The Movies" ?  Just imagine Ebert standing
    there in front of that newspaper delivery van with his arms folded across
    his chest Il Duce style and that ineluctibly smug expression on his face.)

    Message: 62266
    Author: Issey Miyake
    Category: War!
    Subject: Lorem ipsum
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 03:37:09

         Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam
    nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat
    volutpat.  Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation
    ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.  Duis
    autem vel eum iriure dolor inn hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
    consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et
    accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit
    augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
    consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
    laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.  Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam,
    quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex
    ea commodo consequat.  Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in
    vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
    facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
    praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugair nulla facilisi.
     Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet
    doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum.  Lorem ipsum dolor sit
    amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt
    ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.  Ut wisi enim ad minim
    veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
    aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.  Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in
    hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu
    feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui
    blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla
    facilisi.  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
    diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat
    volutpat.  Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation
    ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.  Duis
    autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
    consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et
    accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit
    augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
    consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nunummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
    laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.  Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam,
    quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex
    ea commodo consequat.  Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in
    vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
    facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
    prasent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy
    nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.  Ut
    wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit
    lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.  Duis autem vel eum iriure
    dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum
    dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
    dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te
    feugait nulla facilisi.

    Message: 62268
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Miyake
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 03:53:24

    Clothes your mouth.

    Message: 62269
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 05:35:25

    Commercials are those things in radio and TV for which sponsors pay. THe
    information I provide on the evils and inevitable results of nicotine
    addiction are not commercials. They are testimonials to those things I know
    about the filthy habit that had me enslaved for some 34 years, and of which
    I am now, THANK GOD! free.
    Just so you are able to recognize the difference.
    And why just pick on me? Cliff has at least as much to say against the
    addiction as I do.

    Message: 62270
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on me & Paul
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 08:13:41

    You mean the two of you will insert your non-smoking messages into
    non-related messages because I continue to smoke? Why? Doesn't make a bit of
    sense. Doesn't make me want to quit or will. To each his own and 'viva La
    Difference'! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62271
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Issey
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 08:16:30

    What was that you said? It's Latin to me. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62272
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/last
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 08:19:56

    I picked on Cliff too.
    Re: testimonials ... they can be turned off like commercials!
    You'd better be careful - that soap box of yours is getting weak from all
    that standing on it. (snicker)
             * Smile - your on Candid Camera! * -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62274
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Leonardo da Vinci
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 18:35:33

    [from _The World of Leonardo_, by Robert Wallace and the editors of
    Time-Life Books, 1981.]

         Apart from his artistic chronology, there are very few fixed dates
    that can be used to pinpoint Leonardo's activities in the decade of his
    twenties.  One document, of April 8, 1476, when Leonardo was nearly 24, may
    or may not have some significance in his personal history, but it has loomed
    large in later analyses of him and cannot easily be overlooked.  The
    Florentine rulers, as one means of holding power, maintained a box called
    the *tamburo* outside the Palazzo Vecchio, or town hall.  Into this box one
    could drop anonymous accusations, which were investigated if and when
    witnesses came forward to testify before the police.  On the date in
    question, the *tamburo* was found to contain a charge that Leonardo and
    three other young men had engaged in homosexual acts with a 17-year-old
    artist's model named Jacopo Saltarelli.  The charge may have been motivated
    merely by spite; the accuser was never identified, no witnesses presented
    themselves and although the case went to court a second time two months
    later, it ultimately came to nothing.  Today, one's inclination is to
    ignore the whole affair.  But the circumstances of Leonardo's life, his
    comments on sex and his attitude toward women [or lack thereof] will not
    quite permit this.  The charges will come again to mind.

         ...Perhaps the most dramatic change in attitude toward Leonardo's image
    occurred early in the century when the artist fell under the heavy,
    humorless scrutiny of Siugmund Freud.  Working with what he took to be
    historical facts, Freud in 1910 produced his celebrated essay *Leonardo da
    Vinci, and a Memory of His Childhood*.  In it he conjectured that Leonardo,
    lacking a father image in the first years of his life, had more-than-normal
    erotic relations with his mother, the peasant Caterina; and later on, when
    he was brought into his father's household, Leonardo received extreme
    affection from his childless stepmother.  Freud also placed great emphasis
    on a childhood dream or fantasy recorded by the artist himself, involving an
    erotic encounter with a large bird which alighted on Leonardo's cradle.
    Coupling this with remarks of Leonardo such as "the act of procreation and
    everything that has any relation to it is so disgusting that human beings
    would soon die out if there were no pretty faces and sensuous
    dispositions," Freud concluded that in all likelihood Leonardo was a latent
    homosexual who sublimated his inclinations in his voracious seeking after
    knowledge.
          In his analysis, Freud made the error, surprising in a scholar, of
    accepting material in the widely read book by Dmitri Merejkowski, _The
    Romance of Leonardo da Vinci_, a work of almost unadulterated fiction.  In
    addition Freud used an erroneous translation of Leonardo's notes, in which
    the bird in the childhood fantasy was rendered as "vulture."  Using this
    mistranslation as a point of departure, Freud then embarked on a lengthy,
    involved discussion of ancient Egyptian sexual-religious beliefs concerning
    vultures.  After noting that the Egyptians had worshiped a motherly,
    vulture-headed goddess named *Mut*, Freud asked solemnly:  "We may question
    whether the sound similarity to our word 'mother' (*Muther*) is only
    coincidental?"
         The proper translation of the word is actually not "vulture" but
    "kite," a bird of the hawk family common in Europe, and thus Freud's
    excursion into the lore of vultures becomes quite irrelevant.  Beyond that,
    Freud was unaware of the true chronology of Leonardo's paintings and
    therefore made some gross blunders in trying to relate his own psychological
    observations to the works of art which he discussed.
         Freud himself was dubious about the ultimate value of his essay -- "I
    would not like you to judge the certainty of our other results by this
    sample," he later wrote, and if he were now alive he might well withdraw or
    greatly revise it.  The work has been repeatedly attacked and disparaged by
    later scholars, psychiatrists and art historians, with considerable
    justification.  However, parts of Freud's analysis remain as valuable
    contributions to any study of Leonardo.  Notably, Freud enabled others to
    see the complex, looming genius as a human being, flawed or fallible as the
    case may be.

    Message: 62277
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Vote
    Subject: ... so far ...
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 19:09:31

    looks like 13-9 to me... with nobody either fitting the 'adulterer'
    category, or feeling that one of the other categories is a better
    description.

    Message: 62278
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak/Leonardo
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 20:13:59

    Thanks for the interesting posts.  So far, then, it appears that theories of
    his homosexuality are based on wholly unsubstantiated, anonymous charges,
    his disdain for sex, and the ravings of a quack.

    I would be curious to know more about this "erotic childhood dream" of a
    bird which Leonardo supposedly recorded.  Specifically, were the "erotic"
    elements infered or explicit?

    Message: 62279
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 62266-67
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 20:31:16

    Curious.  The text repeats itself six times, with the single exception of a
    unique sentence between the second and third iteration.  Some of the words
    are definitely Latin, some are definitely not.  Of course, I do not know
    Latin, but I am not aware of any Latin words that start with "w" or "zz", or
    which end in "ing", or end in "sl", &c., &c.
    Furthermore, many of the conjugations and declensions seem incorrect (I
    base this observation solely on the examination of a Latin (classical)
    dictionary), and I am not sure that the words taken together form any
    meaningful clauses.

    What is it?  Nonsense?  A concealed message?  The work of a semi-illiterate
    Latin student?  And why six iterations?  To conceal the unique sentence?
    Seems unlikely.  I intend to submit it to a Latin scholar for translation,
    and failing that, examine it for concealed messages by means of simple
    concealment, transposition, substitution, or some combination; assuming,
    that is, that my interest does not wane in the interim.

    Message: 62280
    Author: Ray Jones
    Category: Hard/Software
    Subject: floppy drivs
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 22:17:08

    Anyone got an old 360K floppy drive they want to find a new home for?
    Leave me a message on the board, I'll check back later.
    Thanks

    Message: 62281
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 22:25:35

    Re:  When do you want your cigar?

    I'll pass, thanks.

    Message: 62282
    Author: Elizabeth Danforth
    Category: War!
    Subject: Miyake/Lorem ipsum
    Date: 11/20/89  Time: 23:17:25

      Ahah!  I can't swear that the acres of "Latin" in 62266-67 don't have some
    other antecedents, but I recognize it nevertheless...
            Letraset's Body Type!
      As a once-upon-a-time magazine editor, I occasionally (rarely) needed (but
    used) blocks of nonsense type with which to mock-up advertising copy or
    whatever else.  At a quick scan, it looks like the real article (so to
    speak!) but is swift and simple.
      Am I wrong?
      Hope I don't win a cigar...
           ~
      Aside from that, greetings all; I'm new at this.  Hope I'm not stepping on
    someone's toes, but the "Lorem ipsum" just looked a little too familiar...

    Message: 62283
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 01:36:08

      Yeah!  That's it!  I knew I'd seen that stuff before; it looks like Latin,
    and even has a few genuine Latin words, but is actually gibberish.  Just
    like the sentence "Foring mests larry no granning sunners in the rones"
    looks like English, but means nothing.

         =========  Pascal  #(u,u)#  Yawn!  MacProgrammer  =========

    P.S.:  Der Schmirrenhorst zerwaldet sich zum drossten am Pfintingschaft.

    Message: 62284
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornbob/cigar
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 02:59:10

    Whew!  I'm off the hook...thanks.

    Message: 62285
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann's addiction
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 05:18:49

     As long as you want to continue to exercize your right to destroy a fine
    person who Cliff and I consider a friend, (I am presuming to speak for Cliff
    here), then Cliff and I will continue to exercize or first amendment right
    to speak out against that particular form of suicide.
     We love you, and would like to see you around for many years to come. After
    all, if we can't harrass you, then who?

    Message: 62286
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/my soap box
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 05:22:17

    Don't worry about my soap box weakening, Ann. It is well supported by strong
    beams of facts and figures, as well as popular opinion. Your suicidal
    minority is getting smaller all the time, in case you hadn't noticed. Why
    not join the clean air gang, and give your lungs, heart and the rest of your
    body (along with ours) a break?

    Message: 62287
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 08:00:58

    It's nice to be loved! It's also nice of you to think of my welfare. I won't
    argue anymore, so go on with your testimonials/commercials - I'll listen.
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62288
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul on box
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 08:03:04

    Remember dear, all of us have 'soap boxes'! Heaven help you if I get on one
    of my many!

    You know, I may cruise your neighborhood after all!!! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62289
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 08:07:27

    Thanks for the posts on Leonardo. Very informative. I never did like Sigmond
    much though. At times I got the impression he was more of a fanatic than the
    people he talked about. Perhaps he is right in his analysis of Leonardo.
    Who knows? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62291
    Author: George Howe
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Death of a Hard Driv
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 23:22:01

    I am a former smoker.  I quit mostly because I couldn't breathe when
    I woke up, or when I climbed stairs, or hardly anytime.  Also, I smoked
    nonstop when at my keyboard.  Not long ago my 10 meg became a 9 then a 7
    then a 6 meg.  Guess what?  The insides where covered with the residue from
    you got it, cig smoke.  Still, we oughta give smokers a break.  Eventually
    they will all die and the rest of us will be happy!  So let 'em commit slow
    suicide.

    Message: 62292
    Author: George Howe
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Adultery
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 23:23:17

    I vote for #5

    Message: 62293
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Columbus holiday???
    Date: 11/21/89  Time: 23:47:23

    [The following is from the book, _Legends, Lies & Cherished Myths of
    American History_, by Richard Shenkman, 1988.]

         Christopher Columbus's achievements were so great that people have been
    willing to believe almost anything about him, no matter how fantastic.
         Nothing is better known, for instance, than the story that Columbus
    convinced people the world is round, not flat.  "Before Columbus proved the
    world was round," the *Encyclopaedia Britannica* reported  in an
    advertisement for the publication in 1961, "people thought the horizon
    marked its edge."  Continued the *Britannica*:  "Today we know better."
         "Indeed we do," one critic has remarked.  The authority of the
    *Encyclopaedia Britannica* notwithstanding, it was Aristotle who proved the
    world is round, pointing out during an eclipse that the earth casts a
    spherical shadow on the moon.  Plato popularized the concept.  By Columbus's
    day it was taken for granted.  The story giving Columbus credit for the
    discovery did not even surface until after he had died.
         The person mainly responsible for the myth was Washington Irving.  An
    obscure writer had mentioned it before, but it was Irving who popularized
    the story in a dramatic and embellished account.  The story appeared not in
    one of Irving's works of fiction but in what was billed as a biography of
    Columbus.
         In Irving's account, Columbus, in need of funds for his trip to the
    Indies, goes for help to the sages of the University of Salamanca, whom he
    tells about his "theory" that the world is round and that the best way to go
    east is to sail west.  The "simple mariner" argues for his theory with
    "natural eloquence," in a plea, "as it were," for "the cause of the new
    world."  Unfortunately Columbus is turned down, the sages being deaf to this
    entreaty for the exercise of reason and light.  Irving laments the outcome
    but observes:  "What a striking spectacle must the hall of the old convent
    have presented at this memorable conference!"
         As prizewinning historian Samuel Eliot Morison remarks, the story is
    "pure moonshine."  Although Columbus did meet with the professors of
    Salamanca to try to obrain backing for his trip, the "sphericity of the
    globe was not in question."  According to Morison, "the issue was the width
    of the ocean."  The professors thought Columbus had underestimated the width
    of the ocean.  They were right.
         A companion story, just as well known, is that Columbus finally got the
    money needed for his ocean trip after Queen Isabella had pawned her jewels
    to finance the venture.  Not true.  Although the queen offered to sell her
    jewels if that proved necessary, it did not; the voyage was paid for with
    government funds.
         More controversial is Columbus's reputation as the "first" European
    discoverer of America.  Determining "firsts" is often a matter of serious
    dispute, but in this instance it is not.  While Columbus was the first
    European whose explorations of America had any consequences, he was
    definitely not the first to explore the New World.  The first was a Norseman
    of whom practically no one has ever heard:  Biarni Heriulfson (sometimes
    Bjarni Herjulfson), whom Morison has dubbed "Number One, indubitable
    European discoverer of America."
         Biarni is said to have discovered America by accident.  According to
    Norse sagas, Biarni sighted what is now known to be North America A.D. 985
    (or thereabouts), when he was sailing from Iceland to Greenland and was
    blown off course.  After Biarni, other Norsemen made voyages to America.
    Most notable was the famous Leif Ericsson (son of Eric the Red), who, some
    fifteen years after Biarni, is thought to have established a little
    community called Vinland or Newfoundland.  The Vinland settlement is said to
    have lasted about a dozen years until the Norsemen were finally driven off
    by hostile Indians.
         For many years Columbus's defenders discounted the Norse claims in the
    belief that they did not hold up under close scrutiny.  Archaeologists could
    not find any evidence that Norsemen lived in North America.  And Leif's
    statement that grapes grew abundantly in Newfoundland (hence the name
    Vinland) was demonstrably untrue.  Grapes don't grow in Newfoundland at all.
    In the early 1960's, however, the remains of a Norse settlement were
    discovered in northern Newfoundland at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows.
    And it turns out Leif had been mistranslated, linguists taking him to mean
    grapes when he meant berries, which are in abundance, just as he said.
         Columbus, of course, is still commonly regarded as the modern
    discoverer of America, but not by everybody.  Some believe John Cabot
    deserves the title.  Cabot claimed to have landed on Nova Scotia in 1497, a
    full year before Columbus touched the New World, but he kept such poor
    records the claim has forever remained in dispute and cannot now be settled.

    A second voyage to America, in the summer of 1498, is similarly in doubt.
         But if Columbus may deserve to be called the first modern discoverer of
    America, he probably shouldn't be embraced uncritically.  For while he was
    undoubtedly a great man, he wasn't necessarily a good man.  Unbeknown to
    much of the public, he was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands
    of Arawak Indians on Haiti.  One historian even believes Columbus should be
    thought of not as a hero but as a murderer.
         His first encounter with the Arawaks could not have gone better.  He
    himself wrote that the natives on the island "are so naive and so free with
    their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it.
    When you ask for something they have, they never say no.  To the contrary,
    they offer to share with anyone."
         Columbus, however, did not reciprocate the Indians' kindness.  Under
    pressure to bring back riches to Spain, he required Indians over fourteen
    years old to make regular contributions of gold.  Indians who did not
    comply, according to historian Howard Zinn, "had their hands cut off and
    bled to death."
         Those Indians who weren't killed were often enslaved and shipped to
    Spain.  On one trip, 500 Arawak men, women, and children were loaded onto
    ships bound for the Old World; during the voyage 200 died.  Far from feeling
    guilty about the practice of slavery, Columbus boasted about it.  "Let us in
    the name of the Holy Trinity," he wrote, "go on sending all the slaves that
    can be sold."  Within two years of Columbus's arrival, says Zinn, half of
    the 250,000 Indians on Haiti had died "through murder, mutilation or
    suicide."  Under Columbus's Spanish successors the mistreatment continued.
    In 1515 there were just 50,000 Indians left.  In 1550 only 500 remained.  By
    1650 there were none.
         Yet such is the desire for heroes Columbus will probably always be
    revered.  Morison says he ought to be, for although he had his faults, "they
    were largely the defects of the qualities that made him great..."  Haiti's
    Arawaks might feel different.  But they aren't around to protest.

    ---------------------------------------

    The preceding was entered as argument against people who think that Columbus
    is more deserving of a holiday than Martin Luther King, Jr.  You're all bent
    out of shape because MLK had extramarital sex, but the systematic murder of
    thousands of Indians is no big deal?  I'd like to know from people like Bob
    and Cliff, why is a Columbus holiday necessary at all?  (If you need your
    memory refreshed, Bob:  In message 61884 you stated that Columbus is more
    deserving of a holiday than MLK.)

    Message: 62298
    Author: $ Spaz Brown
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 02:34:03

    You know, I'm beginning to get the idea that you spend a lot of time
    reading.

    Of course, it could just be my imagination.

    HB

    Message: 62299
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 03:14:05

    Naw, he just has a hand-held scanner.

    Message: 62300
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/cruising
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 05:32:02

    You are welcome to cruise on over here anytime Annie. Just leave the poison
    elsewhere. (smile)

    Message: 62301
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 06:55:41

    Interesting Columbus posts. Another myth shattered. He sounded like a beast.
    Under the light of this imformation, we should do away with 'his' holiday
    altogether.
    I remember being so disappointed to find that George Custer was not a true
    hero either. When in school, we were taught he was and revered him as one of
    the true American heros. My husband was born and raised very close to the
    famous 'last stand' area - he picked up arrowheads from that battle as a kid
    - he was also taught the same thing. Well Custer turned out to be an
    egotistical mass murderer that went against orders for his own
    glorification and managed to get his men slaughtered. Strange though, there
    are people back there that still think him the hero. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62302
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Spaz
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 09:23:49

    You have a good imagination.

    Message: 62303
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: T-Day!
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 12:36:57

            EVERY-ONE....  Have a great and bountiful *T* Day!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62304
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Columbus
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 13:02:09

    So when _did_ MLK discover America?

    Message: 62305
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Spy Magazine
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 13:39:39

    Winona Ryder is on this month's issue of Spy.  She's in a Christmas elf
    outfit, holding a lighter in one hand and an American flag in the other.
    The cover says, "Buy this magazine or we'll burn this flag."

    Zowie.

    Message: 62306
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 15:34:19

    Re:  "Interesting Columbus posts. Another myth shattered. He sounded like a
    beast"

    Yeh, we all know how famous  Richard Shenkman is.  He is so well known,
    never tells a lie, never bends the truth!  We can just call everybody a lier
    and depend on Richard Shenkman to tell us the truth.  Get real.

    Hmmmmmm.  It would be interesting to see what Richard Shenkman has to say
    about MLK.

    Message: 62307
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 15:35:59

    Re:  "Buy this magazine or we'll burn this flag." "Zowie"

    Well, did you buy it Zak??

    Message: 62308
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 18:14:31

         Richard Shenkman may not be a household name, but there is no reason to
    conclude that he'd purposely bend the truth about Columbus.  All his
    research seems to be in order, and there is no indication that he had any
    political motivations for writing his book.

         MLK does not get coverage in Shenkman's book.  By the way, I was in
    Waldenbooks today, and looked at Abernathy's autobiography.  He devoted all
    of 2.5 pages to the discussion of MLK's extramarital sex life.  I hope that
    doesn't contribute to the sales of his book.  Apparently MLK was involved
    with a black senator or something, and while they were together, another of
    MLK's mistresses was looking for him.  When MLK returned, the 2nd mistress
    knew he'd been with a first, and they got into a big fight in Abernathy's
    hotel room.  MLK allegedly pushed her, and she left, so he called out, "Come
    back!  Come back!"  But she didn't come back.  This all happened a few days
    or so before MLK was murdered.

         Technically, I bought the December issue of Spy, because I have a
    subscription.  But there was no conscious decision to save the flag from
    fiery destruction.  Let's just say that the money you saved me by not
    wanting a cigar went into the cost of the magazine; that way, you indirectly
    partially saved an American flag somewhere!  Congrats, Bob!  Zowie!

          Anyway, I think that if you check historical documents you'll find
    that the things Shenkman says about Columbus are true.  He's no "lier"(sic).

    Message: 62309
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: FILM SIG
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 18:21:02

         Y'know, the film sig is doing pretty well; it already has as many
    messages as the Phantom Zone.  (And they're scrolling off like rolling
    glue...)
         So, if you want access to the Film Sig, just send Cliff a note.  (Even
    if you don't want access, send Cliff a note.)  And we'll see you...AT THE
    MOVIES!

         (Any message now, JT is going to tell me to shut up.  I can feel it.)

    Message: 62310
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 20:36:32

    Could he have been the "The Wiz" mentioned in the article on hackers in this
    week's New Times?  He used to use that handle, and it also describes him as
    an American brought up in Australia.  It mentions some Carteresque personal
    wars, and mentions that "he invented the demon dialer."

    So then, is there another pugnacious, bombastic hacker/programmer from the
    outback calling himself "The Wiz" living hereabouts?

    Message: 62311
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: News Today
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 22:21:19

    No, everything in the article seems to fit:

         "I'd come up with the Demon-Dialer," laughs the onetime computer wizard
    *extraordinaire*, who swears he's quit hacking.  "It would ring someone up
    every five seconds.  When [Dave Pratt] would answer, he'd hear this demonic,
    hideous-sounding voice:  'Death to those who oppose ze mad speech
    synthesizer.'  Pratt finally got on the air and begged us to stop.  That was
    our idea of a little fun."
         Now in his late twenties, the Wiz swings his black Reeboks onto a desk
    at a City of Phoenix office, where he works in - yup - computers.  The only
    thing colorful about this soft-bellied guy is the city patch on his drab
    green shirt.
         It's hard to tell how much of what he says is true.  In that way, he's
    no different from any hacker who's ever gabbed to an interested stranger --
    especially one from the media.
         The Wiz portrays himself as a reformed creature of the night, whose
    nonstop hacking has given way to marriage and a full-time job.  But his days
    of wild hacking never stray far from his memory, and he recites his hacking
    philosophy machine-gun style.
         "When you're on your computer," the Wiz says, "you feel safe, secure,
    anonymous.  You can't get that feeling anywhere else.  You're in your own
    little world with your own little computer.  It's a superior feeling."

    [If that isn't Mike Carter, what is?]
         "Sitting right there at a keyboard," he says, making a fist, "you have
    a lot of power.  I was living it -- the whole thing.  We used to make a lot
    of beautiful stuff, useful stuff.  I'd sit there creating for hours, for
    days -- creating!"
         To the Wiz, "creating" meant a number of things, such as inventing the
    Demon-Dialer software or just hacking into someone else's computer for fun.
    Those were good times.
         "Now," he complains, sounding like someone's dad, "all you get is some
    shithead brat who's just interested in causing a bunch of havoc."
         An American who grew up in Australia, the Wiz says he got hooked on
    computers as a high school student.
         "When I was a kid, I played with diodes and capacitors," he starts.  "I
    build radios.  I loved listening to voices so far away.  I'm different than
    a lot of hackers because I love to read and write -- mostly science fiction
    stuff.  And when computers came along, they grabbed me by the throat."
         The Wiz returned to the United States in 1980 and enlisted in the Navy.
     He aspired to be a fighter-pilot, but he got paid to work on computers.  He
    and a few buddies had a field day with the sophisticated machinery.
         "We played with a program," he says, "so it'd appear that an ICBM was
    coming back to blow our base out of the water.  It wasn't supposed to be
    able to do that.  We could program ICBM's to skywrite for us.  Never got
    caught, either."
         This was the early 1980s -- at the dawn of the
    computers-are-for-everyone age.  Computers, not girls, were #1 to the Wiz
    and his hacking sailor pals.
         "We'd hack into someone and would duplicate their computer games," he
    says.  "After we did that, we'd send them a snide message -- 'You have been
    cracked by...'  We were also breaking long-distance codes  --
    phone-phreaking like crazy, talking at the government's expense for hours at
    a time.  Then *WarGames* came out.  It suddenly was in vogue to be a
    hacker."
       ...The Wiz invented the Demon-Dialer...   "I was hacking until I
    dropped," the Wiz continues.  "Then, my girlfriend saw a report on CNN about
    kids in New Jersey getting busted for breaking into a government computer.
    The camera panned in on the evidence.  There was my Demon-Dialer.  Someone
    probably had hacked it off me and copied it.  Whoops.  I disappeared for a
    while."
         He didn't lay low for long.  The Demon-Dialer was such a hit among the
    hacker set that the Wiz had become something of a cult figure, atop what
    Paul Saffo says is a three-tier structure.
         ...The Wiz says he started getting a deluge of "chat requests" from
    around the country -- other hackers leaving notes for him on computer
    bulletin boards that are the hackers' forum for exchanging news.  "They all
    wanted the Demon-Dialer.  They were little soldiers trying to impress you,
    give you little tidbits.  They'd make you feel like you're God.  I'd tell
    them, 'I can grant you any wish you want.'"

    [The rest of the article talks about *Neuromancer* and cyberpunks, etc.]

    Message: 62314
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: NEW TIMES
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 23:53:56

    New Times also did a write-up of the underground computer game "Mormonoids
    From the Deep".  If you'd care to order this game (for the Macintosh), write
    to:
         Robert Carr  2210 N. 9th St.  Boise, Idaho  83702.

    $7 for the game disk, $3.50 for the sound disk  OR $10 for both.

    (the sound disk expands the amount of sound effects from 48K to 437K, but
    isn't necessary to play the game.  It requires an external drive or hard
    disk to use.)

         By the way, readers of BURNING TODDLERS knew about "Mormonoids From the
    Deep" a full 9 months ago!  Sure, New Times is free... IF you don't mind
    waiting nine months for your information....  (A new BT will be out within
    two weeks...)

    Message: 62315
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: MIXED UP
    Date: 11/22/89  Time: 23:57:45

    (at Cliff's request.....)

    MIXED UP - a two person exhibit featuring mixed media work by Jeff Falk &
    Janet de Berge Lange will have an OPENING RECEPTION on Sunday, Dec. 3rd at
    8pm.

    The opening will feature a performance art piece by Jeff Falk, a poetry
    reading by Paul Waldman, plus the sounds of the Midnight Funk Association.

    A $2 donation is requested at the door.  GALLERY X.  800 W. Madison.

    420-9390.

    Message: 62316
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Carter
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 00:36:28

    Invented the demon dialer?  That's a little hard to swallow...

    Message: 62317
    Author: Lawrence Wilson
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: Tax Sales bring $$$$
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 00:51:33

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    Message: 62318
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Of demons and dilers
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 03:17:16

    Excuuuuse me, but I''l just take the 5th and a looong vacation.

    Message: 62319
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Question?
    Subject: last
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 03:26:37

    Will you autograph my New Times?

    Message: 62320
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: Peter Petrisko/B.T.
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 04:35:18

    Speaking of "Burning Todlers", here's a potential story for your
    controversial magazine (it is controversial, isn't it?):

    Every Sunday in the personals section of the Republic want-ads, there is an
    ad placed by an organisation calling itself the "Arizona Power Exchange."
    The ads typically run lines like "The story of O., the story of U." and "Was
    9 1/2 Weeks too short for you?".  There is a phone number, which reaches a
    long recorded message.  It turns out that the AZ Power Exchange is a sort of
    club for S&M freaks (as well as D&S%0`nd bondage).  It is not the prurient
    appeal that makes it so ideal for your magazine (if I understand your
    mindset, infered from your requests for a pathetic but sincere Elvis
    impersonator), but rather the irony of their attitude.  Listening to the
    tape is like listening to June Cleaver announcing a tupperware party.  A
    woman describes the organisation and its activities in librarian tones,
    inviting the public to open house meetings, making terrible bourgeois jokes
    ("bring your turkey to our Thanksgiving dinner, but don't forget the ropes")
    about subject matter which does not lend itself to apple pie humor, and just
    generally trying to convince you how normal it is to whip people with birch
    rods.

    Message: 62321
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann/Columbus
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 07:10:25

            If Columbus sounds like a beast, Ann, it is only because by
    today's standards ALL people were beasts 500 years ago.  In light
    of the times in which he lived, Columbus behaved in a perfectly
    respectable -- even exemplary -- manner.
            Now, that is not to say that some of the things he did were
    not deplorable.  If the information Zak posted is true, Columbus
    did indeed commit some horrendous acts.  But, just as Zak has
    argued in the case of Martin Luther King, Jr., that cannot
    diminish his achievements.  Regardless of which European actually
    first set foot on the "New World," it cannot be denied that
    Columbus' journey was the first to have a truly historic impact.
            Who knows?  Maybe someday people will look back on those who
    smoked as beasts for having slaughtered so many non-smokers.  :)
            BTW, I agree with you that the holiday situation should
    remain as it currently is.  Aside from racists and Italian-
    American organizations (not that the two should be lumped
    together except in this regard), the only group I can imagine
    sincerely wanting holidays for both MLK, Jr. and Columbus is
    state employees.  I think they just want an extra day off, just
    as I would if I were a state employee.

    Message: 62322
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Peter/Gallery X
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 07:10:57

    Peter, is your gallery one of those being subsidized by the City
    because it's having to move for Mr. Colangelo's new playground?

    Message: 62323
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 08:33:18

    Re: Shenkman --- I doubt that he elaborated very much regarding Columbus. I
    have read other things about him and that rings pretty true. He really
    didn't discover America and he was cruel to the indians - as most
    'discoverer's were at that time in history. I just feel MLK did more and he
    certainly wasn't a mass murderer. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62324
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 08:44:49

    I agree with you re: the MLK holiday and the state employee's wanting
    another day off. They have enough already! I also resent the pressure put to
    us - blackmail is the word. As much as I admire him - I don't think a
    holiday in his honor is the answer and to take Columbus day out. He might
    have been a beast, but he did help to get this country started.
    Of course, the solution to all this is very simple .... forget the holiday
    ... if you admire the man, then follow his advice .. forget prejudice and
    bigotry. (Not aimed at you personally Bill) Treat all your fellow men as you
    want to be treated. See ... simple! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62325
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Talk about a sham!
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 09:00:04

    Forget the word sham - it should be fraud! And did we get a dose of it last
    night! About a week ago my husband answered the phone and a guy told him he
    had won $35,000! He said because he had ordered something from a certain
    company over the phone, that his name was put into a pool and each month
    they draw names and that person is the winner! He said he would call him
    later in the week to tell him the details. My husband took this as another
    'commercial' type call - they were going to try to sell him something, etc.
    Well, he did indeed call back and this was the sham .....
    They wanted him to take $7,000 out of our Mastercard and send it to them
    last night and the check for $35,000 would be delivered at 10:30AM on
    friday. This $7.000 was suppose to be their fee for processing the thing.
    (vague) My husband went along with him - said he didn't know if our
    Mastercard was that high - the guy then told him that was OK - if he could
    just send a percentage of it - $1,500 and they could get the rest out of the
    $35,000 check when he got it! He gave him a name and address to send it to
    some place in Indianapolis. My husband also told him he didn't know if there
    was $1,500 left on M.C. either - the guy said they had a place they could
    process it to find out how much we had left on it. (This late at night??)
    And that if he didn't send it that night - it wouldn't get here until
    monday and by that time, they might have taken him off the list!!! I
    listened in on the extention and this guy sounded real slick - a
    professional! He said he'd call back in a half hour to see if he had made up
    his mind. My husband called the police dept. which were no help at all -
    said it must be a sham because it sounded too good to be true. He
    ... said to call the Better Business and report it. I think we should let
    the phone company know myself?! This morning my husband called Indianapolis
    and there is no such place of business as this man stated. He is also
    suppose to send a 'disclaimer' that my husband is suppose to sign stating he
    doesn't want the money. I have a hunch he will recieve no such paper.
    It all sounded SOOOO legitimate and a less alert person might have been
    fooled. It all boiled down to him wanting us to send $1,500 to some unknown
    company in the middle of the night so we could get $35,000 in return!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Boy, what will they think of next?
    Anyway - beware! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62327
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: All
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 09:07:09

    Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! Save room for the pie. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62328
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/sham
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 09:36:19

    Sounds like a scam to me.  Too bad you can't get the postal authorities
    involved, they could do something.

    Message: 62329
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thanksgiving
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 09:37:08

    Happy Thanksgiving to all authorized personnel.

    Message: 62330
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thanksgiving
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 09:56:46

    Let us all be thankful that we are not suffering the fate of the Albanian
    Mormons.

    Message: 62332
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 16:41:31

    War?  It doesn't take much to set you off does it Zak.

    Re:  "that he'd purposely bend the truth about Columbus"

    Well, excuse me!  Why is it so difficult for me to accept the word of an
    unknow like Shenkman and call every other historian a liar.  I guess the
    whole world is out of step but Mr. Shenkman.  If you want to dance to
    Shenkman tune fine, I'd rather not.

    Message: 62333
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 16:51:51

    Re:  "He really didn't discover America and he was cruel to the indians"

    Well, I heard that he really did discover something.  And I heard that he
    was a nice guy.  So I guess "my heards" are just as good as "your heards".
    And what difference does it all make, huh?

    Hope you had a good turkey day Annie!

    Message: 62334
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Holidays
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 16:56:40

    Here's how the US of A should handle the holiday issue.

    Establish a set number of holidays a year.  But instead of naming them after
    people give them numbers.  Like number 1 through number 10.  Then anyone can
    celebrate any particular person they like.  Voila!  Nothing left to argue
    about.  It's so simple.

    Message: 62335
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 16:59:14

    Re:  "About a week ago my husband answered the phone and a guy told him he
    had won $35,000!"

    Some people have all the luck!

    Message: 62336
    Author: Tim Tam
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: The Little Mermaid
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 19:22:53

    Recently I went to see the movie "The Little Mermaid", and was extremely
    dissappointed.....

    * No sex
    * No real violence
    * No "Rambo" scenes
    * No physical abuse etc.
    * No rape scenes

    What do you suppose is wrong with Hollywood these days?!

    T.T.

    Message: 62337
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter/62318
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 19:55:23

    Oh, how Charles Keating of you.

    Message: 62338
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: War!
    Subject: Thornbob
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 20:08:54

         Bob, that's an unfair analysis of the situation.  I don't think you'd
    be calling every other historian a liar if you accepted the words of
    Shenkman.  Do you think Shenkman made it all up?  No, he got the information
    from other historians.  Can you name one book or historian who gives
    a contradictory story about Columbus?
         Other sources about Columbus (which validate Shenkman's claims):

    Irving, Washington.  _The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus_ (1828;
    rpt. Twayne Publishers, 1981)

    Morison, Samuel Eliot.  _Admiral of the Ocean Sea_. (1942), vol. I.

    Morison, Samuel Eliot.  _The European Discovery of America:  The Northern
    Voyages_. (1971)

    Einbinder, Harvey.  _The Myth of the Britannica_ (1964)

         As for me being "set off," I think you're making too big a deal over my
    choice of message category.

    Message: 62339
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: The Little Mermaid
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 22:23:00

    What about that controversial nude scene where she "accidentally" looses her
    shells?

    Message: 62340
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/fraud
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 22:51:17

    The postal service keeps a staff of postal inspectors who investigate mail
    fraud.  By contrast, the phone company uses its security operatives mainly
    to oversee the security of its facilities and to persue clients who don't
    pay their bills.

    I suggest that, since you have an address to which you are supposed to send
    the money, you give this information to the postal authorities.  It is
    highly unlikely that the con artist is using a post office box, however.
    Most likely, it is a private mail drop, which was paid for in cash, by mail,
    using an alias, or a network of private mail drops which forward his mail
    around to each other in a sort of shell game designed to confuse
    investigators.  Still, the post office may have some power in the matter.

    As for the phone company, you might as well tell them too, though I doubt
    that will come to anything.  If he calls you back, endeavor to get his
    number.  A simple way to do this is to feign interest and cooperation, but
    say something like "That sounds great, but I'm just leaving for the airport:
    I'm attending a convention for a week, etc., can I have your number to call
    you when I get to my hotel?"  Chances are this won't work, but if the con
    man is particularly greedy, it might.  The number could help track them
    down.  Try to get him into YOUR confidence and wheedle as much information
    as possible under various subterfuges.

    Message: 62341
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/more on fraud
    Date: 11/23/89  Time: 23:08:11

    If and when you or your husband speaks with him, resist the temptation to
    speak in an arch tone.  Try to sound neither indifferent nor completely
    gullible.  The idea is to sound as though you are somewhat disbelieving, but
    overcome by the prospect of easy money.  Put the con man on hold while you
    and your husband ostensibly discuss the risk vs. the reward, but make sure
    he can "overhear" the conversation -- which culminates in agreement to
    cooperate with the con man, and rationalisations of the possible risks.
    This is not to say that you should stand 6 inches away from the handset,
    speaking in forced and stentorian tones.  If you can gull the con man into
    thinking he is speaking to ordinary, greedy folks, you just might lull him
    into a false sense of security which will allow you to subtly pump him for
    information.

    Message: 62342
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JEFF/BILL
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 00:34:12

    Jeff - Arizona Power Exchange, eh?  Please post the number.....

    Bill - No, being on 8th Ave., my space won't be affected by the America West
    Arena (gee, doesn't that have a nice ring to it?).

    Message: 62343
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CARTER
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 00:36:42

         Did New Times quote you pretty accurately?  I'm just curious as to what
    YOU said & what they said you said....  Give us all the dirt, Mike.

    Message: 62344
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 00:47:42

    I believe that the statute of limitation has kicked in on your crimes if
    any...

    Message: 62345
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann's scam
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 05:31:21

     If they requested sending anything through the mails, and actually did
    defraud anyone using the mails, then the postal inspectors could step in.
    Otherwise, they can do nothing.
     The scheme is so obviously a fraud, and since it involves interstate
    transfer of funds, I'm sure that some Federal agency would be interested. If
    you have names and box # or some such, the Attorney General's office might
    like to look into it.

    Message: 62346
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob on Columbus
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 06:56:55

    Naw! It don't make a bit of difference!
    I hope you had a good turkey day too Bobby. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62347
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Tim
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 06:59:08

    After reading you review on that movie - I won't go see it! Gads! NO RAMBO
    scenes?? Yuk! What's Hollywood coming to? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62348
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 07:00:48

    Re: "What about that controversial nude scene where she accidentally looses
    her shells?" --- hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62349
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/fraud
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 07:08:15

    I will call both the post office and the phone company. I cringe to think
    this slick character is making money off of unsuspecting people - mainly the
    elderly. Speaking of the elderly - my mother-in-law is visiting for
    Thanksgiving and we told her the story of the sham - instead of agreeing
    that it was a sham - she said maybe it could/was legitimate and we could
    lose $35.000 if we didn't send them the money! She finally did agree that it
    sounded fishy - but what would have happened if they had called her and she
    was alone? She's the type that buys everything from every saleman that comes
    to her door whether she needs it or not! She must recieve over 20 magazines
    a month!! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62350
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/#622341
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 07:09:59

    We pretty much did that Jeff. My husband played it real cool - acted
    interested and greedy! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62351
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Ann/Holidays
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 07:40:03

            Ann, you are a most confounding individual to discuss things
    with.  Your opinions seem to change from minute to minute:  In
    one message you're willing to relieve Columbus of his humanity,
    in the next you want to keep the holiday honoring the "beast."
    Debating you is like trying to grab Jello.
            Extending your "follow his advice" argument would lead us to
    cancel all holidays:  If the best way to honor a person and the
    ideals he or she stood for is to live according to those ideals,
    why have holidays at all?
            Actually, holidays should serve as important reminders of
    the ideals themselves, and, in fact, they did this until the
    latter half of this century when holidays began to be thought of
    as paid days off.  Lincoln's birthday should remind us of the
    ideals of freedom and equality the man stood for and the fact
    that he began the process of helping all U.S. citizens achieve
    them.  Labor Day should remind us that our prosperity was built
    through decades of hard work and sacrifice.  And so on.
            It's easy for us to become distracted from these ideals, yet
    it's essential that we keep them in mind if we are to preserve
    our liberties.  Holidays (used to) serve this purpose very well.

    Message: 62352
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Peter/Gallery X
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 07:41:41

            Well, even though I think the arena is a tremendous waste of
    taxpayers' money, I hope you'll get some benefit from the
    increased foot traffic in the area.  --  Assuming rising land
    values don't force you out.
            And keep posting exhibit announcements.  I want to make it
    down sometime.  Do you have continuing exhibits, or just
    occasional performance pieces?

    Message: 62353
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: As I said before...
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 09:23:25

    That APEX group is populated with many fat women and men, and ugly women and
    men. I have seen many of them. No wonder they need kinks to get their motor
    running. What do you expect of a group that charges men, and lets women in
    free? Singles club it's not.

    Message: 62355
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Satalite dish XXXXX
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 12:19:50

            Does anyone know how to set up a signal that will wreak havoc on a
    mean persons 'satalite dish'?   The target is a person who has thrown rocks
    though my brothers windows, has broken a $700.00 photovoltaic solar panel.
    Broken the tail lights on a car.... and who is very verbal with the
    children.  Bob has called the police....and they can do NOTHING!  This
    person has even said he was going to kill Bobs daughter...and the police
    said if he does, then they will arrest him, but till then, they can't do a
    THING!  Bob took down all his Solar panels by the way...  a lot of good they
    do in his shed!
            And every time the police leave.... over the fence comes another
    rock!  Grrrrrrr
            Bob being into electronics would like to just jam this guys satalite
    dish from time to time....and when the repair man comes...turn off the jam,
    so the guy will be billed for repair to a unit that will always seem good to
    the repair man.
            This guy also gives beer to the little kids in the area... but the
    police can't do a thing since it is his word against theirs.  They want
    PROOF positive.
            Who was it who said 'Police protect people'? ha ha ha hahaha  ha ha
    And as I understand it...ALL the neighbors have called the police and filed
    complaints against this family that has moved in, not just Bob.

    If you can help.... send me mail... we will keep your ID top secret!
    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62356
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 12:25:41

            I am currently reading a little book on the ACLU that a sometimes
    disgruntle BBS user left behind after a GT one night.  Is there anyone here
    that is a card carrying member of the ACLU?  Is there even a stand-up
    supporter on this system?

    Message: 62357
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James on Statutes...
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 16:43:59

    1 more year.

    Message: 62358
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 17:20:52

    I support some of the actions of the ACLU.

    Message: 62359
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 17:22:20

    Well, where is my SIG?

    Message: 62360
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 18:06:23

    I support many of their actions.

    Message: 62361
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Peter
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 18:31:15

    I don't have the number memorized or written down.  I simply called and
    listened to their spiel.  However, the ad runs every Sunday in the personals
    column of the Republic want ads.

    Message: 62362
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: JT on SIG?
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 19:12:45

            Just what SIG do you wish to start?  And who are your supporting
    members?  Like I told ZAK...  You can start a SIG, but I want at least 5
    other $tatus members to say they will support such a SIG.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62363
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Last
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 19:21:19

    I want a SIG called "JT's Personal Domain."  My five charter members are
    Heather Brown, Nick Ianuzzi, Paul Savage, Peter Cervelli, and David
    Burkhart.

    Message: 62364
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Personal SIG
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 21:02:19

      Not much interest in the eign-Language SIG, either.

         =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

    Message: 62365
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT?
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 21:31:47

            Yes..that is well and good...  have them send me mail...  Just
    to name five users is not what I ment.  Have David Burkhart and Peter
    Cervelli and so forth tell me in personal mail they intend to support and
    USE your SIG.   All of Zak's supporters sent me personal mail or posted it
    publicly...and they were ACTIVE users.  I am not trying to give you a hard
    time... but I don't like the mockery of my SIG rules.
            Same thing goes for MacProgrammer... if you want a eign
    Language SIG....  plug it and get support...  I believe you have at least
    one already in B-Dog!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62366
    Author: $ Robert Knee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: ????????????????????
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 22:02:20

    Is the teleological philosophy correct that one should choose his course of
    action based upon what he believes would be best for society as a whole?

    Message: 62367
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Czechoslovakia
    Date: 11/24/89  Time: 22:23:25

            Is the Communist world collapsing?  East Berlin, now in
    Czechoslovakia the communist hard liners in government resign.  WoW!
    One after another, falling like 'Dominos'...  or is this a trick?
    Already President Bush is talking about HUGE spending cutbacks in defense
    spending.  Great if that means less taxes and the world is really getting
    civilized....  However, this also fits in the 'One World Government' by the
    year 2000.  To accomplish this feat you realize, the West (us) must lose
    some freedom, and the East must gain some freedom.  After all, in a one
    world government, we the 'Sheep' must be equal.

            Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62368
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Robert Knee
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 01:29:51

    It depends what you mean by "best for society."  What if society is corrupt
    ?  The general answer is, no.

    Message: 62369
    Author: Hans Glans
    Category: Politics
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 03:00:59

    I support few of their positions. They shut their mouths when it comes to
    guns, but are right there if a man molests his little girls.
    Warped agenda.

    Message: 62370
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 06:06:24

    Sam Steiger made probably one intelligent statement in his long and
    unillustrious career. That was that the world would be better off if we
    first shot all the lawyers.
     I would improve on that statement only by saying that we should start with
    Louis Rhoades and his gang at ACLU.

    Message: 62371
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: J.T.'s SIG
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 06:08:16

     Sounds like good company. I would support it Cliff.

    Message: 62372
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT's SIG
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 07:27:43

    If JT were actually willing to post messages that gave us some
    insights into the goings ons back in D.C. -- that is, to actually
    discuss issues, as he did in Apollo's glory days -- I'd support
    his SIG and be interested in joining.

    Message: 62373
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 07:28:10

    I support the philosophy and overall activities of the ACLU,
    though not every specific action it takes.

    Message: 62374
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Hans Glans
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 07:47:54

            But guns do not molest or commit crimes.  If you are one of those
    who think we the people should be disarmed by the government, then you have
    a Warped agenda.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62375
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: JT's SIG
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 07:54:54

            Well, I do have four users who have posted in one way or another
    that they would indeed support a SIG such as s Personal Domain.
    Is there anymore....  I only need ONE more to start things in motion.

      They are: Todd Reese, Nick Ianuzzi, Paul Savage, Bill Burkett

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 62376
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Savage
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 08:45:34

    Steiger also said, "To be or not to be, that is the question."

    Message: 62377
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Robert Knee
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 08:45:59

    It depends whether you're a deontologist like Kant or a consequentialist
    like Barb.

    Message: 62378
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill/holidays
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 11:02:10

    Sorry Bill to be so confusing and contradictory. I was only joking about
    that beast Columbus and I do not want to see the his holiday taken away,
    because even if he was a beast, he did do much in his time.
    I'm for holidays - the way you put them. We need to be reminded, your right.
    I just did not like how we were blackmailed re: MLK or how holidays are
    seemingly nothing anymore but paid day's off. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62379
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/your brother
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 11:10:43

    He might try what Whitey did one time to get even --- when he was a kid,
    some mean guy shot his dog - saying it killed his chickens. It didn't
    because it was a pup and didn't go away from the house. But no matter - the
    guy did this sort of thing all the time and the police would do nothing. So
    - Whitey just damaged this guy's tires for years afterwards! Just at random,
    nothing steady. He'd shoot them - stab them or just let the air out. I guess
    this went on until he joined the navy. Also, one time at an un-fairness, he
    put limburger cheese on some guys radiator. It actually ruined the car!
    You are right - the police won't do a thing until they get proof.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 62382
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on JT
    Date: 11/25/89  Time: 11:51:46

    I'm for him having a sig. as long as I have entrence. -=*) ANN (*=-

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