### Apollo BBS Archive - December 19, 1991

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    Mail from Apollo SysOp
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 08:25:12

    [A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

    Hi Rod..
            Yes, I sure have learned a lot..  Maybe the next time someone askes
    why I keep Apollo, I will tell them because i learn so much from it.

            Maybe I did get up tight about the auto pollution thing, but I see
    autos as a necessary evil in todays world.  I keep mine in very high tune
    and do my part to not pollute in excess... I am sure Nick's car is in very
    high tune as well.

            You letter made cX=Qz9M1BJiV+
    $]7.4
    8oint you
    were making)  so I guess you can write well when you ciose to.

            Have a Happy Rod.. I like 9o| a lot!
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:{{{{{{{{{{{{{_{{Insty/
    RJA1e

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I {am a{ga{in {getting a {lot of garbage{...so I will log off and t{ry
     again,
     2:sometimes this helps{.
     3:
     4:I also swe{ th{e au{to as a necessary evil.  Until something{ b{etter
    {comes along{ w
     5:we a{re stU{ck.{
     6:end

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    Mail from Apollo SysOp
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 08:29:00

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    Yes, I understand, we are who we are and that is the way it is.  You keep
    being you...  I guess I got tied up into the serious side of the debate.
    I tend to take pollution serious, as that is one big HQ
    P' fault.  I do
    knotice the population is beginning to learn... it's a beggining anyway.

            I am NOT mad...

            Oh, yea, that Ann,"d^"!%911eBUIQ9J	+W$,YY7Q%9!I
    many letters... she was on the verge of leaving Apollo, and I want no one to
    leave.  They are family.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:{{{Zap

    Mail from Apollo SysOp
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 20:24:10

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    Yea, the solar auto....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:By the way I noticed in your greeting that you have holiday spelled wrong
     2:and the apostrophe should not be in Sysop.
     3:
     4:Solar auto is a good idea.  A city auto with a snap-on highway module would
     5:be a good idea.  A auto built like bumper cars with thick shock asorbing
     6:material all around.  I would love to be in on development of this auto.
     7:You have a machine shop....hmmm.
     8:
     9:A slip out battery module and 'service centers' at every Circle K and 7
    10:Eleven where one could pull up, slide their battery pack out then slide in a
    11:fresh one, all in a jiffy and at a reasonable cost.  Let's develop one.
    12:                                Rod

    Post Office command:G

    Goodbye, Rod Williams
    You were on 02:30

    Please hang up now
    \6-M5F V^a1dn
    NO CARRIER
    ~ATDT8431704 RINGING

    CONNECT 1200

    Type

    Apollo 8.0 300/1200/2400

    What is your first name:ROD

    What is your last name:WILLIAMS

    Hello, Rod Williams
    Is your name correct:Yes

    Password:

    Password:$$$$$$$

    Caller # 166575 (18 today)
    It is now 12/20/91  20:07:41
    Last on @ 12/20/91  20:07:14
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    Message range is (80459-80712)
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    Message: 5275
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: muscle cars
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 04:07:32

    I didn't realize you were going for a faithful restoration.  Since that it
    the case, obviously you've got no choice but to stick with the stock
    exhaust.

    If, however, you ever wanted to put the Cuda on the street and clean up the
    exhaust, there's no reason you couldn't run 10.5:1 compression.  A
    computerized engine management system would be necessary, but you could keep
    everything else pretty much stock.

    Message: 5276
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer !
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 08:37:47

            Utility bills freak me out as well...

            I do not know the exact costs....  but each time APS ups its rate,
    my panels give me more in pay-back.  I believe they have been cost efficient
    for me, and over the years have saved me more then I paid for them...and
    they do not pollute!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 5277
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Quickie
    Subject: Nick/Slick
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 15:01:19

    What makes you think Slick 50 works?  I put it in my Blazer and saw no
    change whatsoever in anything.  I'd like to think it works but didn't see
    any eveidence for it.

    Message: 5278
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Solar
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 19:29:31

    When I was doing solar research last year, it didn't seem worth it,
    especially for anything of reasonable size to take over much of the house.
    I did notice that there was some prediction of panels with new technology
    being available in the near future, at reduced cost/watt.  Anybody know if
    these are out?

    Cliff, I have a hard time believing that your system has been
    cost-effective, given that it is not used to anywhere near capacity (info
    given to me by you during a conversation).

    Message: 5279
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Cosmos-Chatter
    Subject: Slick-50
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 04:08:30

    In the last two cars that I have owned (The Trans Am and the Vette), I have
    noticed mileage gains of about 1.5 or 2 mpg after adding Slick-50.  Note
    that it was added well after engine break-in, so the increase in mileage was
    not a result of rings seating, etc.

    In the Trans-Am, I thought I noticed a power gain as well.  I don't notice
    anything in the Vette, however.

    X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC

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    Subject:Slick 50

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:I just pee in my tank every 543 miles.
     2:end

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    Message: 80673
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/death jokes
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 02:32:47

    I read this in a book the other day:

    "Ammonia can be regarded as the parent of the compounds called amines.
    Amines often retain the pungency of ammonia but frequently in a modified and
    more disagreeable form.  To see the kind of change that occurs, you should
    turn to putrecine (131) and its partner cadaverine, as one day you certainly
    will."

    Message: 80674
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Melissa Dee
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 02:34:37

    No, I didn't see it.  Please fill me in.

    Message: 80675
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SysOp/bitter
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 07:40:43

    atheists. You're projecting again, Cliff.

    Message: 80676
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Dee...
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 08:59:42

            Catholics believe in 'Christ' Miz Dee. Not only did I just say
    'Christians', but I added "believing in Christ as Son of God" to make sure
    people understood the question.  There are many denominations and religions
    who believe in 'Christ as son of God'...hence they are "Christians".

            As for the Atheists and Agnostics and ETC., I could not think of
    another way to word it so to fit it into the limited space.  I suppose I
    could have said 'non-Christians'...but I suspect someone would have found
    something wrong with that as well.  I was hoping that "ETC." would have
    covered everything else.

            I will add the words 'Non-Christians' to the ote question
    for those of you who have not oted...  I just did not think of it at the
    time of installing the ote question.   GEESH!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80677
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Archimedes
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 09:35:13

    I feel we're just going around in circles, Archimedes, so I'm bowing out for
    now.

    Message: 80678
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last/Bill
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 10:22:55

            No one expects you to undo 40 or so years of governmental propaganda
    in a few minutes of post reading.  The idea here is to just listen (read)
    and think about it.  Someday something may 'pop' to shed the light on the
    rest of it.  Then maybe never....  But I suspect before the year 2000, we
    will all know for sure.

            I just hope we ALL will find out before it is too late...  We may
    have to spill rivers of blood to get it all back again.  sigh!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S. I never believed any of it at first myself when told about it years
    ago... but it seems to be all falling in place. It takes time...

    Message: 80679
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Invest/Cliff
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 11:31:44

    >>Sigh, so smart yet so blind.
    This is NOT a personal observation of either you, me or anyone else in
    particular, just a general observation -= To wit - I don't think you can
    make a case that those people who "believe" in gold are so smart that they
    are the ones who own lots of REAL property in quantity and that those people
    who are "blind" are the ones on the short end of the economic stick.  Who is
    living the good life, driving $190,000 Mercedes, living in{20,000 sf houses,
    etc?  It is the people who INVEST their assets, NOT the people who are
    sqirrling away little hoards of gold and waiting for the "imminent" collapse
    of society that are doing well.  And I hope you aren't going to say how they
    are all crooks, etc, etc, - they are not all crooks.

    Message: 80680
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/What is rich
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 11:35:24

    He's that little guy that empties the ashtrays at the car wash.

    Message: 80681
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff/Gold
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 11:39:32

    You're in too deep to get out now!!:-)
      Realizing that you just read my previous post and may have already
    answered I still have to throw in again, in reponse to your "I can't believe
    people like FRNs so much...etc...." that people who roll up the really big
    bucks don't do it by squirreling away a sack of coins.  They do it by
    jumping into the FRN fray and engaging the various and sundry time honored
    capitalistic investment methods, most of which are perfectly moral and
    legal.

    Message: 80682
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/Financial
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 12:34:21

    investing. Indeed. I had a friend who played the financial futures market.
    If he believed that the Swiss franc was going to appreciate relative to the
    dollar he'd buy Swiss francs and short the dollar. Futures too risky for you
    ? Use CBOE options on those futures. Bullish on gold ? Buy the futures. BTW,
    I've read some financial advisors do advise that 10 percent of your assets
    should be in some sort of disaster hedge like cigarettes or soap. Our Mormon
    friends have it right. They have stashed away enough of this stuff to become
    rich if a disaster ever did strike. Gold in a disaster ? Worthless. You
    can't eat it, smoke it, or use it to wipe your butt.

    Message: 80683
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/sigh
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 12:55:39

            Just because people use gold/silver does not mean they 'squirrel' it
    away or 'hoard' it.  To have gold/silver does not stop one from investing.
    The person I know that has quite a bit of gold (by my standard) also has
    many investments...he owns a chain of stores and a quarter million FRN
    home... and many cars.

            Fred, you have a FALSE picture in your head of the many people who
    believe we should be back to the basics of our Constitution and that
    includes REAL dollars and a system of substance.

            And, again.. not EVERY American can afford to invest, and he should
    not be punished for it by having his hard labor earned FRNs devalue before
    his very eyes.  He has Constitutional RIGHTS, and they are being violated
    by the Government!

            Archimedes can explain this better as he seems to have his facts
    quite well organized.  I am dropping out of this, but will read with GREAT
    interest so I may learn more.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- I do not 'hoard'

    Message: 80684
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch/How come
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:13:42

    How come when I point to the differences between "now" an"then" you say
    "..You cannot apply todays standard to back then.." and then you launch into
    a recitation of how things were back then that supposedly show your point??
      If I can't use em neither can you!!

    Message: 80685
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:24:46

    Glad to see you are softening up a little.  Still basically seems to me that
    the whole basis for your desired gold standard would be to prevent gvt from
    controlling "money" in ANY way at all.  You have presented a couple of
    scenerios of how things might go but they always include gvt at some point
    having some connection to the gold "standard".  Perhaps you would like to
    explain what would prevent, under your scheme(s), the gvt from simply
    instituting a tax on YOUR gold and making the tax payable ONLY in gold.  You
    could have your treasured gold standard and yet the gvt would STILL be able
    to control everything thru the tax system.  Again, the cruz of your concerns
    revolves around somehow stopping the gvt from doing what you don't think the
    gvt should do.  I see no reason to think that the gold standard could not
    EASILY be controlled by the gvt one way or another.

    Message: 80686
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:39:41

    You say on the one hand that the gvt must follow the constitution which
    demands that they follow the valuation formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8
    grains of gold and then somehow claim that gold and dollars are not being
    valued against each other and that the value of Gold is not being controlled
    by the gvt.  Are you blind??

    Message: 80687
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:46:46

    The answer of who is more "wealthy" the owner or raw material or the person
    operating them depends on the political and tax system to some extent ~raand
    on how you measure "wealth".   But in the absence of those considerations I
    think the person who owns the raw materials ought to be the wealthiest.
    But on the other hand, it may not take much "smarts" to own something but it
    may take quite a bit of smarts to properly "add" value to it so in that case
    it may be the manager who is most wealthy when the dust settles.

    Message: 80688
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:48:48

    Gvt suspends payment of rent??  Nonsensical question. Makes as much sense as
    me asking you what you will do when the gvt demands that you cease trading
    in gold and silver and turn it all into the gvt.

    s

    Message: 80689
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: GreenL/ Ciggs
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:53:52

    Interesting that tobacco STILL is used as a medium of exchange after all
    these years!!!!!

    Message: 80690
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 14:57:46

    Where do you get the idea that peoples FRNs are devaluing before his eyes??
    Unless he has LOTS of them "stored" under his mattress or sitting in a
    non-interest bearing account he has NO FRNs devaluing.  He may have a house,
    or lot, or shares of stock or whatever, but those things are NOT FRNs and
    their value may be going up down or sideways.  You "gold" people seem to
    think that EVERYTHING but gold has done nothing but go down in value from
    the minute someone buys it.  FRNs are NOT wealth, they are chits.

    Message: 80691
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bill Benson released
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 15:16:48

    As some of you may remember, I spoke some time ago of a Mr. Bill Benson,
    former IRS investigator and co-author of the book "THE LAW THAT NEVER WAS,"
    which is a collection of certified copies of the legislative records of the
    States which purportedly ratified the 16th (Income Tax) Amendment.  I
    mentioned that having incurred the wrath of the powers-that-be by exposing
    their scam, Mr. Benson was subsequently tried and convicted of transgressing
    the IR Code, and while in prison, was forcibly given drugs which resulted in
    seizures ultimately confining him to a wheelchair.

    Mr. Benson has finally been released under rather curious procedures, and is
    now recuperating at home.  In this month's issue of NCBA REPORTS, the
    monthly report of the National Commodity & Barter Association, John Voss,
    the Director of NCBA, interviews Mr. Benson.  He has quite a story to tell
    of his incarceration, the forcible and overdosage injection of experimental
    drugs into his veins, his subsequent successful efforts at getting the
    prison rebuilt to suit his wheelchair, the odd and certainly not procedural
    circumstances of his release, and his future plans.

    I have uploaded the interview to the ibrary in two parts at present
    labeled "Bill.Benson.1" and "Bill.Benson.2".  The only reason for making it
    two parts is that my word processor is only good for about 11k and couldn't
    quite encompass the whole thing in one file.  [Cliff or Bill, if you can
    combine it into one file, it would probably be better.  Thanks!]

    Message: 80692
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: BENSON.TXT
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 21:21:53

            Mr Archimedes's files are now one file under the name BENSON.TXT
    This ASCII file is now in the ibrary for ownload.

            It is not a very large file (not as big as America... Occupied)
    and should make easy reading...  I HIGHLY recommend it.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80693
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Fred/wealth
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 23:17:55

    You're exactly right: wealth is NOT money, be it frns, gold, or seashells.
    Wealth is what brings INCOME.  One of the biggest problems of socialism is
    the inability of socialists to distinguish between static money and wealth
    (in our sense of the term).  They think that by redistributing money, you
    redistribute wealth, but you don't.  If someone has 100 dollars, and 99
    other people have pennies, and someone comes along and redistributes that
    money so that everyone has a dollar, that improves the lot of those 99
    people -- but only for a very short time.  After that, *everyone* is worse
    off.  Wealth requires concentration.  That's why the rich generally get
    richer.

    Message: 80694
    Author: James Matlock
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: Benson's Hedges
    Date: 12/19/91  Time: 23:25:01

    He fought the law, and the (pause) law won.

    Would anyone care to buy some hitherto undiscovered gems of real estate?

    Message: 80695
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Sorry, (Sniff)
    Subject: ...to hear that.
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:18:24

    BB> I feel we're just going around in circles, Archimedes, so I'm bowing
    BB> out for now.

    I'm sorry to hear you say that (or read you saying that; whatever).  I
    thought we were just getting to the crux of the matter.  But I understand
    how one can periodically get burned out on this stuff.  What Cliff said in
    response to your message was very appropriate, and I second his comments.
    Keep your eyes and ears open; GM's announcement that 24,000 people will be
    separated and a bunch of their plants closed sounds to me like the loud
    *crack!* that precedes the low rumble of the avalanche.

    After it's all over and the dust has settled, I hope you remember that
    George Washington's leadership presided over the same kind of economic
    avalanche which was the major cause of the Constitutional Convention in the
    first place, and that the cause of that avalanche was widely perceived to be
    "the evils of paper money," that the avalanche was seen by many at the
    Constitutional Convention as "a favorable crisis to crush paper money once
    and for all," and that a mere one year after the Constitution was ratified
    -- with gold and silver coin established as the *only* legal tender of the
    land -- George Washington's State of the Union address reported that the
    return to economic prosperity had "exceeded all expectations."

    I say this because we are clearly going to have to do it again.

    Message: 80696
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Now and then
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:19:36

    FS> How come when I point to the differences between "now" an"then" you say
    FS> "..You cannot apply todays standard to back then.." and then you launch
    FS> into a recitation of how things were back then that supposedly show
    FS> your point??  If I can't use em neither can you!!

    Oh, if I ask you to stop using today as a standard for back then, then I
    can't use the viewpoint back then as a standard for back then?  C'mon, Fred.
     You can do better than that.

    To keep this from deflecting the course of the discussion, I re-state my
    assertion vis-a-vis "back then:"  From 1800 to 1900, under a bimetallic gold
    and silver standard, the living standard of the working people improved more
    than it had improved in the last 18 centuries.

    Now, I am not suggesting there have been no improvements in the living
    standard since.  I do assert that improvements in the living standard since
    has been at the cost of our children's future, and needn't have been, were
    it not for the fraudulent monetary standard.  I further note that
    improvements in the living standard have just now ground to a halt for most
    working people thanks to the economic devastation caused by that fraudulent
    monetary standard.

    [Continued 1 page]

    Message: 80697
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Crooks
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:21:00

    The point is this:  Under a gold/silver monetary standard, wages go up and
    the cost of living goes down over time.  Under this fraudulent monetary
    system, wages go up, but the cost of living goes up faster -- *lots* faster,
    and most of that increase in the cost of living is deferred onto future
    generations to their extreme detriment.

    Now, whether you like it or not, or even believe it or not, between 1800 and
    1900, under a bimetallic gold/silver monetary standard, wages *did* go up
    for the worker and the cost of living *did* go down for the worker, and
    nothing but wealth was passed on to future generations.  The same cannot be
    said of the period from 1913 on, when wages went up, the cost of living went
    up faster, and our children's cost of living in future generations has gone
    up astronomically faster -- the only thing *we* are leaving our children is
    back-breaking debt and a heritage of victimization.

    I don't know about you, but I consider it *criminal* to rob our children of
    their future to live the cushy life of a well-pampered bankster-slave here
    and now.  I consider it criminal to even condone it.  I *certainly* consider
    it criminal to take personal advantage of it and thereby perpetuate and
    exacerbate the scam to the greater detriment of future generations.
    Therefore, yes, I do consider those who blithely jump into the 'FRN fray,'
    as you put it, and play the game according to the illegal rules of crooks,
    as *crooks.*

    Message: 80698
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Basically...
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:22:13

    FS> Glad to see you are softening up a little.

    Dear me, whatever did I say to give you that impression?

    FS> Still basically seems to me that the whole basis for your desired gold
    FS> standard would be to prevent gvt from controlling "money" in ANY way at
    FS> all.

    Uh, is that what you think I am saying, or is it the only way *you* think
    what I am saying would work?  Regardless, the only purpose of gov't is to
    protect the rights of the people, and the people have an inherited and
    unalienable right to a stable and dependable medium of exchange.  They had
    that from when the Constitution was ratified until 1913.  Whether you think
    the gov't "controls" money, or the value of it, or whatever, is irrelevant
    to the fact that the system imposed upon gov't by the Constitution worked
    well until it was replaced in 1913, and it did not have to be replaced in
    1913 by any gold drain or any other factor.

    Message: 80699
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Scheme(s)
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:23:08

    FS> Perhaps you would like to explain what would prevent, under your
    FS> scheme(s), the gvt from simply instituting a tax on YOUR gold and
    FS> making the tax payable ONLY in gold.

    The same thing that prevented it the last time you asked that question:  the
    Constitution of the United States.  Gov't could do that to *your* gold
    because you are a juristic person, i.e., you are exercising privileges
    granted by gov't.  Gov't could not do it to me because I am a natural
    individual at law exercising no privilege granted by gov't.

    Besides, it is not my "scheme(s)"; it is Roger Sherman's scheme and it
    belongs to the people of the United States; they have a right to it under
    the Constitution.

    Message: 80700
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Valuation and ...
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:24:09

    FS> You say on the one hand that the gvt must follow the constitution which
    FS> demands that they follow the valuation formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8
    FS> grains of gold ...

    Whoa, whoa.  I do say that gov't is required to obey the Constitution (upon
    pain of ceasing to be gov't), and the Constitution does provide and require
    gold and silver coin as the only Constitutional tender in payment of debts;
    however, the Constitution does not demand that gov't follows the valuation
    formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8 grains of gold (which establishes the value
    of the "Dollar" but not of the gold).  That formula was established by
    Congress and remains a law today, but it is within the purview of Congress
    to change it, subject to presidential veto and judicial review as with any
    other law.

    Message: 80701
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Question?
    Subject: ... Value
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:25:05

    FS> ... and then somehow claim that gold and dollars are not being valued
    FS> against each other and that the value of Gold is not being controlled
    FS> by the gvt.  Are you blind??

    No.  Are you?  I'll tell you what: before we proceed and start calling each
    other idiots, let's define our terms so we can talk the same language.  How
    do you define "value," and how do you denominate it?  In other words, to
    your way of thinking, what *is* it and in what units do you count it?

    Message: 80702
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Owner or Manager
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:26:17

    FS> The answer of who is more "wealthy" the owner or raw material or the
    FS> person operating them depends on the political and tax system to some
    FS> extent *raand on how you measure "wealth".

    You've got that right!  And that is the substance of our controversy, I
    might add.  However, let us be more specific:  I presume from your previous
    comments that you are in the possession and control, and consider yourself
    as "owning," an apartment building and the land it sits on.  (Whether you
    actually do or not is irrelevant and moot and none of my business
    particularly, but it presents a good example for discussion.)

    Taking this property as an example, and stepping outside yourself for a
    moment, would you consider yourself more "wealthy" by virtue of your
    ownership and control of this property, or would you consider yourself more
    "wealthy" by virtue of your management and control of this property?

    To re-phrase the question:  Considering that being "more wealthy" is a
    desirable goal for you, would you prefer to own and control, or manage and
    control, the property just described, and why?

    Message: 80703
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Rent
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 07:27:23

    FS> Gvt suspends payment of rent??  Nonsensical question. Makes as much
    FS> sense as u what you will do when the gvt demands that you cease trading
    FS> in gold and silver and turn it all into the gvt.

    Sorry, Fred, but you're naive.  Not only is it a perfectly sensible
    question, but it has been done before in various areas of the world,
    particularly in a wartime (invasion) situation; it is one of the standard
    applications of martial law and may be invoked not only by the President but
    also by local military commanders, and it is currently one of the unexecuted
    Executive Orders to be executed by FEMA in the event of a national
    emergency.  Furthermore, your counterpoint of asking what I will do when
    gov't demands that I cease trading in gold and silver and turn it all over
    to the gov't is no more nonsensical than my question to you; it also has
    been done and was a matter of law in this country up until 1934.

    However, I asked you first.  Therefore, I repeat:  What are you going to do
    when, at a time of 'total economic collapse,' gov't declares the suspension
    of all rent payments?

    Message: 80704
    Author: $ Bill Burkett
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Cliff/Arch-Listening
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 10:48:27

    > I never believed any of it at first myself when told about it
    > years ago... but it seems to be all falling in place. It takes
    > time...

    Well, for me it seems to work in the opposite direction:  The more I hear in
    the way of details, the less convinced I am.  A cursory listening to the
    evidence seems to show a great deal of correlation between Archimedes's
    overall theory and current (and past) events.  But the further you get into
    it, the more detail you get, the less it seems to make sense.  Assumptions
    and accusations and circumstantial evidence pile on more assumptions,
    accusations and circumstantial evidence until there seems to be no hard,
    factual foundation for the theory at all.

    Of course, I'm still open to listening.

    Message: 80705
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/evidence
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 13:20:17

            Well Bill, I understand what you are going though.  For me, it
    probably helps that my wife (Sandy) is from Montana and knows Red Beckman or
    at least has has comunication with him and others.  I knew the Gordon Kahl
    story years ago... and I have more detail on it then has been told on this
    BBS.  My wife also has read "The Law That Never Was" and many other such
    publications.  What I am trying to say (I think) is that to meet and know
    these people who know, makes it more believable.

            Though out history, people have always scoffed at things about to
    happen as foolishness... are you going to be one of them?
    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80706
    Author: $ Green Lantern
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Bill/correlation
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 13:33:10

    What is the old Roman saying ? "Post hoc, ex propter hoc ?"

    Message: 80707
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 13:57:51

    Value = The selling price - what a freely acting buyer and freely acting
    seller agree to.
    How to denominate it = Doesn't matter.  Can be whatever the buyer and seller
    agree to be it dollars, seashells, or ounces of gold.

    Message: 80708
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 14:01:53

    Own or Control -
      It's far to complicated to give a simple answer but generally I would tend
    to choose ownership as just being the manager is essentially just working
    for a living and you may not have a job tomorrow.  Your "wealth" as a
    manager, is really only your "job" and except for unusual situations (like a
    seat on the Chicago Board of Trade, etc) can't be sold.  So in that sense,
    being a manager really isn't wealth at all.

    Message: 80709
    Author: $ Fred Smith
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Arch
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 14:06:33

    Your question remains meaningless.  In total economic collapse, the issue of
    whether rent is collectable will be a minor point and it is unlikely the gvt
    could enforce it's eddict even if it passed it.  And YOUR question was far
    less likely to REALLY happen in THIS country then mine to you.  As you know,
    my question to you DID essentially happen once before.

    Message: 80710
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Econ 101 reprise
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 14:16:11

    Since I made a hash out of 'Econ. 101' by losing the 3rd segment of the
    message, I thought I would try to re-hash it here by providing a general
    understanding of how a gold/silver based monetary system works without
    government "control," and how a paper money system *must* be controlled in
    order to function at all, and how every control input to a paper money
    system makes it worse.

    When I finished it, I found it ran to seven and one-quarter pages at the
    rate of 24 lines per page.  Therefore I have uploaded it to the ibrary
    and called it "Econ101.txt".  I hope you all find it helpful.

    Meanwhile, on the premise that gov't exists for no other purpose than to
    protect the rights of the people, and on the Jefferson (and Libertarian)
    premise of "That government is best which governs least," I'd like us to
    discuss the following idea:

    Why is it necessary for government (or the banksters) to mint, coin, or
    print money at all?  The Constitution states that no Thing but Gold or
    Silver Coin shall be made a Tender in payment of Debt, and provides that
    Congress shall have power to Coin money, but does that *require* gov't to
    Coin Money?  Why not simply have a law, as now exists, which defines a U.S.
    "Dollar" as, say, 25.8 grains of gold .9 fine, and then require all Legal
    Tender to be denominated in U.S. Dollars, and allow anyone to mint them
    provided they do indeed either contain the required weight and fineness of

    Message: 80711
    Author: $ Archi Medes
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: New idea
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 14:17:13

    gold and/or are *rigorously* *backed* by the required weight and substance
    of gold?  Also, allow anyone to contract in any substance they want, so long
    as the substance is convertible to U.S. Dollars as defined by law?

    Having suggested we consider such an 'open house' type of legal tender, we
    might also consider that under current laws this option is already open.
    The only thing making it difficult is the IRS, which exists solely to
    prevent the FED's worthless paper money from hyper-inflating, but which has
    the collateral ability to tax the very bejabbers out of any other form of
    money we, the people choose to use.  Therefore the IRS must be abolished,
    which is a good objective in any event, and toward which many associations
    nation-wide are working.

    I am not convinced this is a good idea in all respects, but I am convinced
    the debt-money we have now is a very bad criminal idea and desperately needs
    to be put to rest before it causes any more destruction of people's lives,
    now or in the future.

    Comments, anyone?

    Message: 80712
    Author: $ Apollo SysOp
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ECON101.TXT
    Date: 12/20/91  Time: 18:28:47

            The file is now in the [L]ibrary... and only 12 K long....
    If you forget the name, use the [S]earch CMD and use Archimedes or GOLD or
    SILVER or FRNs as the [S]earch string...

            Not, off to growl at Mr Archimedes....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 80713
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DEATH
    Date: 12/21/91  Time: 00:29:01

    I must write at least one more post on this subject because something keeps
    buzzing around my skull that I want to get off of my chest.  Here goes.

    I vision that it is the hour before my death, that I am reflecting on how I
    lived my life.  Did I hide in a closet, full of fear, or did I experience a
    fuller life?  This thought has changed me in that my decisions are more
    based on experiencing life than hiding from it.

    I don't know if I am making my point so I will try again.  In my death
    throes and I look back do I want to see someone who hides from life or
    someone who stands up to it?

    It has changed my life.

                                            Rod

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    Search for what:GOLD

    ECON101.TXT  ASCII FILE :Monetary System of Gold/Silver & FRNs
                 Uploaded by Archimedes 12/20/91

    Library command:D

    [A]SCII or [X]MODEM:ASCII

    File to download:ECON101.TXT

    File is 12K long
    [A]bort or [S]tart download:Start download

                                   ECON 101
                                       by
                                   Archimedes

     A discussion of how our current economy, based upon a fraudulent monetary
    system created out of thin air, works and more often fails to work, and a
    comparison with the constitutional monetary system of intrinsic value which
    has been stolen from us.

      With a paper-backed monetary standard, particularly one like ours, where
     the control of the economy has been illegally turned over to a private
     internationally-owned corporation, there is no legal or practical or
     natural limits on the amount of cash which may be placed in circulation.
     If the fed wants to stimulate the economy, it prints more paper money and
     lends it into circulation, perhaps lowering the prime lending rate in the
     process.  Money becomes more easily available for borrowing, for investing,
     for capitalization, and the economy heats up.  Every frn printed, however,
     is *lent* into circulation at the prime lending rate of interest, and the
     fed member banks to which frns are lent then lend it out again at a higher
     interest rate.

     Government obtains its operating capital by borrowing it from these banks.
    The result, therefore, is not even a marginal increase in national wealth.
    The result is a horrendous increase in national debt.

     Increasing the cash in circulation by this method, moreover, causes the
    purchasing power of each frn to decrease substantially by the simple fact
    that there is an increase in cash in circulation without a commensurate
    increase in the actual wealth o f the nation -- this is called "inflation."
    Inflation occurs because printing-press cash can be introduced into
    circulation much faster than the economy can catch up with and produce the
    wealth commensurate with the amount of cash in circulation.

     In order to prevent inflation from "taking off" and becoming hyper-
    inflation, as Germany experienced (which led to the emergence of Hitler and
    the start of WWII) and as Argentina experienced during and following the
    Falklands war and as the U.S. experienced when the Second Continental
    Congress issued paper money which rapidly became worthless (remember the
    phrase 'it's not worth a continental?'), a Gestapo-like agency with
    draconian powers must be formed, the duty of which is to pull a significant
    portion of that money out of circulation before it gets spent.  In the U.S.
    that agency is the so-called Internal Revenue Service.

     Thus an increase in cash in circulation causes a tremendous increase in
    actual inflation; however, the apparent inflation is held to a moderate
    level by the removal of cash from circulation by the IRS.  This cash removed
    is credited toward the national debt and the interest on the national debt
    by bookkeeping entries, and then the cash is shredded.  But the cash has
    already been printed and lent out at interest and lent out at interest
    again; therefore if the taxes collected by the IRS exactly equalled the
    increase in cash in circulation, there would still be a net increase in the
    total interest owing on the national debt due to the time lag between
    printing/lending and tax collection.  And, of course, the taxes never equal
    the increase in cash, so the National debt keeps growing and the interest on
    it keeps compounding regardless.

     Thus, whatever our living standard may be at a given period in time, we
    have borrowed incredibly inflated amounts of it from our children and their
    children, and they are going to have to cut into *their* living standard to
    pay for ours, just as we have to cut into our living standard today to pay
    for the living standard our parents' and grandparents' borrowed from our
    labor today.

     If the national debt and the interest on it gets too big (actually if the
    *rate* of increase gets too high) the government begins to find it difficult
    to borrow operating capital, and it must raise taxes to slow the *rate* the
    national debt is increasing so as to borrow more, since the gov't always
    wants more.  This hurts everyone, of course, and the economy slows and
    begins to stall.  If it doesn't slow fast enough, then the fed has to slow
    down the printing presses, and perhaps increase the prime lending rate,
    thereby reducing the cash in circulation.  This slows the *rate* at which
    the national debt is growing, but there is *no* *way* the National debt can
    ever be reduced: as the economy slows there is less money available to pay
    taxes, thus there is less money being taken out of the economy by the IRS
    and credited toward the National debt.

     Even if the printing presses were stopped completely, and the IRS collected
    *all* our cash and credited it toward the National debt, there would still
    be the multi-trillion dollars in interest to be paid -- and by law and
    practical necessity (there being no more frns then)) it must be paid in
    *real* *dollars* of gold and silver, and failing that, it must be paid in
    actual wealth: real estate, property, capital equipment, labor, etc.

     Now let us contrast this fraudulent paper-backed monetary system with the
    self-controlling constitutional monetary standard of gold and silver coin.
    For the sake of simplicity, let us restrain ourselves to a discussion of
    "monometallism," as of a gold standard, as opposed to "bimetallism" (gold
    and silver standard).

     Under this system, gov't *cannot* control the "value" of gold, at least not
    by any artificial quick-fix means.  Printing presses don't magically produce
    gold or silver coins.  If gov't perceives the need to stimulate the economy
    by increasing the cash in circulation, it may still do so, but to do so it
    has to *buy* gold on the open market.  The price, in U.S. dollars, gov't
    will pay for gold on the open market is set by law passed by congress.
    congress might say (for example) "Gov't will pay one U.S. dollar for 25.8
    grains of gold .9 fine."  (Gov't will also set a cap on the total amount of
    gold to be purchased, I.E., "Gov't will purchase 5 million U.S. dollars of
    gold at the rate of one U.S. dollar for 25.8 grains of gold .9 fine.")

     If gold producers are getting a better price than that on the open market,
    then obviously they are not going to sell their gold to government.  Not
    only that, enterprising individuals will be melting down U.S. minted gold
    coins and selling the bullion on the open market for more than their face
    value.  On the other hand, if gov't is offering a better than market price,
    then gold producers *will* sell gold to the gov't at that price, and at
    least for the duration of the purchase, gov't will dominate the market for
    gold.

     Obviously, then, to maintain the trading value of the U.S. dollar, gov't
    must always be prepared to buy gold at a price higher than the current open
    market price, or not buy it at all.  This is okay, as will be seen.

     A minted gold coin of specified weight and fineness of gold will always be
     more acceptable for trading, and therefore more "valuable," than the same
     weight and fineness of bullion.  This is because the coin is a known
     quantity; it requires a minimum of inspection to determine its validity and
     legitimacy.  Bullion, on the other hand, cannot be accurately assessed
     without metallurgical testing, even if stamped with a reliable gold house
     name and serial number.  These could be easily faked.

     Thus, in an economy based upon the gold standard, wealth is measured in
    U.S. dollars where the U.S. dollar is a specified weight and fineness of
    gold in a minted coin.  The open market price of gold in bullion form,
    therefore, is a measure of the health of the economy.  If the bullion price
    of gold exceeds what gov't is paying for it, I.E., If gold bullion of the
    same weight and fineness as minted coins will buy more in the marketplace
    than minted gold coins will buy, then this is an indication that there are
    too many minted gold coins in circulation, and that the economy is going to
    be heating up.  All gov't need do is not buy any gold and not mint any gold
    coins for awhile.  The economy will expand until minted gold coins again
    become more valuable than bullion.  (Also, enough people will be ripped off
    by opportunists 'cutting' gold bullion with worthless alloys that coins will
    ascend in value simply because they are more trustworthy.)

     On the other hand, should the bullion price of gold drop far below what
    gov't is paying for it, I.E. If gold bullion of the same weight and fineness
    of minted gold coins will buy far less in the marketplace than minted gold
    coins, this is an indication that there is not enough gold coins in
    circulation and the economy is about to begin stalling.  All gov't need do
    is buy gold bullion and mint more coins with it.

     There are socio-political features of monetary systems, and these may be
    compared historically between monetary systems based upon worthless paper
    and monetary systems based upon intrinsic value such as gold and/or silver.
    From the late 1700's to 1873 the monetary system of the United States was
    bimetallic; I.E., specified weights and fineness of both gold and silver
    were legal tender by law.  In 1873 congress dropped the silver dollar as
    money to be coined and made gold the basic monetary metal, and in 1878
    congress passed the Bland-Allison act directing gov't to buy silver bullion
    each month for coinage and to issue silver dollars and later, silver
    certificates.  This latter act was repealed in 1893 and in 1900 congress
    passed a law declaring that the dollar "shall be the standard unit of
    value" and shall consist of 25.8 grains of gold nine-tenths fine.

     Between 1800 and 1900, according to "The wonders of the nineteenth century"
    by J. W. Hanson, A.W., D.D. (Conkey, 1900), "Never were so many persons
    employed at remunerative wages, and never was the condition of the working-
    classes so exalted as today.  More progress has been made on these lines
    since 1800 than during the previous eighteen centuries."

     And, one must add, that which was achieved by the working classes was
    *owned* by them, and was passed down generation to generation as inherited
    wealth and greatly improved living standard.  Contrast this with the decades
    since the establishment of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1913: as revealed in
    the beginning of this article, the only thing passed down from generation to
    generation since 1913 has been unrelenting, back-breaking debt owed to the
    foreign shareholders of the international corporation known as the Federal
    Reserve Bank.  This debt is increasing at an astronomical rate daily; it can
    *never* be paid off, and yet -- barring economic cataclysmic and resultant
    revolution -- our children and their children will be forced to expend
    nearly all of their labor in a futile attempt to do so.

     As of this writing, however, it appears the economic cataclysm -- if not
    the revolution -- is imminent.

                             -- Archimedes, December 20, 1991

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