### Apollo BBS Archive - September 2, 1990

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 69126
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Roger/obtuse
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 22:29:41

    I don't think you understand.  Points are geometric entities, not physical
    entities.  The coordinates given in your hypothetical accident example
    define a geometric entity with zero dimension, called a point.  They do not
    describe anything real.  They can only be interpreted in terms of physical
    reality by finding physical entities which *roughly* satisfy them.
    Let's leave time out of this altogether, because it is just one more thing
    to confuse you.  Look: there is no point defined by any coordinates X,Y,Z at
    McDowell and Central.  Points are purely imaginary, Roger.  You cannot say
    that such and such atom is the point X,Y,Z, because atoms are three
    dimensional and points are zero dimensional.  The most you can do is
    associate the "center" of the intersection with a point X,Y,Z in your
    mathematical schematic.

    Message: 69127
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 22:39:55

    I made a perfectly valid point with regard to any Bush/Hussein debate.
    The point is, the affair is not between America and Iraq, much less Bush and
    Hussein.  The affair is between those countries which belong to the United
    Nations with which the United States is but one player (albeit an important
    one) sharing a common viewpoint, and Iraq as well as those countries (very
    few in the world community) which support Iraq.  To arrange a debate between
    Bush and Hussein is to present the affair in a skewed perspective, one in
    which the battle is between the U.S. and Iraq.  That is exactly what Hussein
    has in mind.  He obviously has nothing else to gain other than a public
    relations benifit among anti-American forces; not by making any rational
    points, but by emotional rhetoric.  The matter is, and should continue to be
    mediated by the U.N. Secretary General. I have yet to see you raise any
    logical objections to this point; so far, it's just been a lot of rhetoric
    and name calling.

    Message: 69129
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 22:42:48

    I'm interested.

    Message: 69130
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: rapture time
    Date: 09/01/90  Time: 23:10:32

    Anybody have a date set for the Rapture ? I figure it will be when
    Bush nukes the chemical weapons factories (or sends many, many planes
    to wipe out Hussein's military and industrial capabilities. I think that
    Bush will use a trumped up excuse, much like the Gulf of Tonkin fraud,
    to launch a devastating and lethal attack on Iraq. I heard Sen. McCain
    in what sounded like a very sad voice say that he thought that Bush would
    act very soon. Fellow Americans, when did we lose control ?

    Message: 69131
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod/Iraq
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 02:09:47

    Yes, the innocents always suffer. However, think about it before you villify
    the US...who started this conflict? Who walked in and took over a
    neighboring country to wipe out a few bills incurred from another stupid
    pointless war? Do you really think that Hussein is such a terrific guy to
    his own people?
    I mean, am I missing out on something? Is it perfectly ok to take over
    defenseless small neighboring countries? Anything to avoid a war right this
    minute, huh?
    Never mind about the bigger, nastier war that could be next...we'll Neville
    Chamberlain our way out of that one, too...

    Message: 69132
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: nukes/iraq
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 02:15:37

    Why does everyone always instantly equate our nuclear weapons with Iraq's
    chemical weapons? I seriously disbelieve that anyone other than an
    unpredictable, hazardous flake such as Hussein would break out nuclear
    weapons for anything other than the most dire, last ditch effort...the
    chemical weapon business has been highly overstated and overrated...sure,
    it's pretty easy to kill a bunch of defenseless little old ladies and men in
    peasant villages, but those who could run away survived the Kurdish attacks.
    I certainly hope we can be better prepared.
    Going afterIraq with nuclear weapons in answer to chemical ones would be
    something akin to levelling someone with an Uzi for shooting at you with a
    spring-loaded BB gun...

    Message: 69133
    Author: Jack Snidely
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mann/microcephalic
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 02:19:56

    Beck was wrong.  Apparently there ARE points in real space-time...as your
    haberdasher will readily attest.

    Message: 69134
    Author: Jack Snidely
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: food
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 02:22:22

    No one is starving in Iraq at this point.  The first thing people will be
    deprived of is their luxury food-stuffs.  The idea is to make Hussein very
    unpopular among his own people so that, before the point of actual famine is
    ever reached, he will have been deposed.

    Message: 69135
    Author: Woger Mann
    Category: War!
    Subject: Grrrr!
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 03:09:59

    Ooooh, I HATE dat wascally wabbit!!!

    Message: 69136
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael Kielsky/Econ
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 07:08:30

      I agree, you are confused. Since when has capitalism been concerned with
    anything except the accumulation of power(capital) for its own purposes? As
    long as you are suggesting reading material, try reading 'Death of a System'
    by Leonard Nadolski. Of course you're atrophied in your ways, but maybe
    someone else can have an open mind.

    Message: 69137
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Max
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 08:21:27

    Thank you for the most interesting history lesson on Germany and Hitler.
                                 -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 69138
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: snidely/bugout
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 11:27:31

    Message: 69139
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: food/Iraq
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 11:52:51

    I was reading that they have up to six months of food with rationing, two or
    three months of supplies under normal circumstances.

    Message: 69140
    Author: John Galt
    Category: Politics
    Subject: CHILD ABUSE
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 12:58:13

    IF YOU WERE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, HOW WOULD YOU REACT TO THE FOLLOWING
    REPORT...?
    IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME ARIZONA TEENAGERS ARE INVOLVED IN "ABUSE RINGS",
    SCHEMES OF ADULT INTIMIDATION WHICH SEEK RELAXED DISCIPLINE IN EXCHANGE FOR
    SILENCE. ANY CHILD CAN CALL THE STATE'S CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES OFFICES TO
    REPORT THAT HE/SHE, OR A FRIEND, IS THE VICTIM OF BEATING, SEXUAL
    MOLESTATION OR "PUT-DOWNS". THE ACCUSATIONS CAN BE ANONYMOUS. THEY DO NOT
    HAVE TO BE TRUE. THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF ACCUSED ADULTS MAY BE ABRIDGED
    AT THE DISCRETION OF CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES.

    Message: 69141
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: News Today
    Subject: U.S.S.R.
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 16:03:06

    Well, has everyone heard about the new 500 day plan for political and
    economic reforms in the U.S.S.R.?  According to today's Republic, Gorbachev
    and Yeltsin have agreed on a plan to "dismantle central economic controls
    and move to free markets in 500 days...cede nearly total economic autonomy
    to the 15 constituent republics, freeing them from the dictates of central
    planning and state ownership.  In return the republics would participate in
    a coordinated emergency program to stabilize the economy.  In the first 100
    days the plan calls for the preparation of laws expanding the rights of
    private ownership, creating a banking system and stock markets, and
    establishing a social safety net for those with low incomes.  The republics
    and central government would begin to bring inflation under control by
    selected wage and price controls and an infusion of imported consumer goods
    to absorb loose cash."

    Apparently, there are massive cigarette shortages.  The state allowance is
    something like five packs a month, and street vendors are selling jars of
    butts for $16.  One wonders how important the nicotine habit was in
    hastening such reforms.  Apparently, there have been massive "tobacco
    riots."   Afghanistan is airlifting the critical weed into Mother Russia,
    and the Soviets are even lifting a 29 year ban on trade with Albania in
    order to get the stuff.  Of course, there are also massive shortages of
    food, gas, and pharmaceuticals, but as one Soviet man said, "We've never
    been without tobacco before.  You can do without vegatables, various foods
    and things like that, but if you're a smoker cigarettes are your #1 need."

    Message: 69142
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/name calling
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 17:17:04

    WHAT?  When?  Where?

    Message: 69143
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Hussein
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 17:26:16

    Saddam Hussein is an attorney and a very intelligent person I might add.
    There are some really beautiful treasures among the Arab nations.  I would
    like to see a two hour long Saddam Hussein Program so that I can be closer
    to understanding what really is happening.

    As a locksmith in Phoenix, Arizona I am not among the privledged few that
    decides what to 'leak' to or in some cases allow the press and news media to
    say.

    Therefore I want to either see the debate or at least hear the Iraqi
    viewpoint from the lips of Hussein.  No other will do.

    I don't want to listen to Bush tell everyone what an evil empire Iraq is or
    that Saddam Hussein is like Hitler or that Neil Bush was taken in by some
    clever con men in the S & L business.  I want to hear the Iraqi view from an
    Iraqi.

    I've noticed something over the years and that is whenever situations start
    heating up and the threat of war looms close then it is the people who have
    muscles instead of brains that want us to fight.   It is the beer swigging,
    sports nut who wants war.  Of course there are those exceptions.

    When I have called you a name?  (One that you could hear.)   -Rod

    Message: 69144
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandy/blame
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 17:32:34

    You asked who started this conflict, who REALLY or what REALLY started it.
    From my information (National Geographic, 1980 issue) it was started about
    423 BC.

    From what I gather the U.S. is in there because we want to control the oil
    (in the form of a puppet) just as we want to control the Panama Canal (same
    idea but a Spanish speaking puppet) just as when we installed a government
    in So. Vietnam and had them invite our military intervention.

    Can't we just purchase the stuff.  Hell, it's on the market and everyone
    will have a chance to buy it.  It does no one any good sitting in storage
    tanks.  You can't eat it or even drink it.  Don't we have oil on our lands.
    Buy American!

    I don't know, what was the question again?
                                    Rod

    Message: 69145
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Red Dwarf
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 17:35:11

    I'm totally hetrosexual but I think I love you anyway.  Good posts, dude.

    Message: 69146
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Arab Nations
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 17:48:42

    I have dug out 6 National Geographics from 1972 to 1980.  In these chosen
    issues are stories on Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Iran and Saudi Arabia.  I
    glanced over them last evening, mostly scanning the pictures as I had
    company but from what I saw there are some really beautiful wonders of the
    world in those nations.  Some real treasures as far as their buildings and
    people are evident.

    These people are not greasy terrorists but I'm sure they exist there just as
    they do here but it is within a very small minority.  But of course they
    make the news because they rock the boats.

    There are pictures of the 'regular' folks who most anyone on this board
    would be proud to call friend.  Their culture is quite advanced.

    I'm going to set aside some time to read up on those particular magazines
    and I will tell you what I have learned.

    Don't make judgements of an important nature just because you saw a news
    release on tv.  You may have a long time to regret your decision.

    If the U.S. was so prissy innocent then perhaps I'd believe more of what I
    heard instead of questioning and being devil's advocate.  -Rod

    Message: 69147
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Saddam
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 21:09:20

    So, he's a lawyer.  How far do you trust lawyers?

    If you don't believe the US media's (or Bush's) slant on Iraq, why would you
    believe Iraq's side of the story?

    Message: 69148
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John Galt
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 22:15:22

    Who is John Galt ? --- I've always wanted to say that ---

    Message: 69149
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: rod/nat'l geographic
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 22:20:14

    no, no, no. Don't you realize that we must de-humanize the enemy first.
    Getting to know the enemy will result in peace, not war.

    Message: 69150
    Author: $ Mad Max
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Germany
    Date: 09/02/90  Time: 23:55:44

    Well I've got some more historical notes, Hitler implemented the so called
    final solution of the jewish problem in 1940, because his SS men could not
    shot them fasyt enough. But the rest of the world did nothing about it, like
    the US, when the port authorities in new york turned back a ship full of
    exiled jews from germany.As I understand every one of those jews was later
    gased in aushwitz after every country in the world turned the ship away, and
    they had no choice but to go back to germany. I personally think that hitler
    and his hench men were testing to world with that move at that time to see
    what would happen, and the obvious message to them at that time was that
    noone cared about the jews or what hitler did to them. Now on an other note
    just think if the rest of the world and especially the US would have ignored
    husseins agression? By ingnoring him we could have had potentionaly the same
    situation, but maybe we have learned a lesson from history.
    Well later on
                           THE

    Message: 69151
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Numusmatics
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 00:12:29

      Were you aware that 64 Kennedy half-dollars are worth $32?

                 ____nhnnn________  We all live in a yellow subroutine

    Message: 69152
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 00:14:15

      So what's your point?  That since coordinate system and mathematics are
    all in our heads and are not actual physical phenomena, then the models we
    have of the universe to not behave *at* *all* like the physical universe?

           =(O,O)=   Hoot!

    Message: 69153
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau/trust
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 02:10:06

    I have a hard time believing what I read or hear on the news.  This is
    only because I know that human error exists and that sensationalism sells
    newspapers.

    There are various reasons I am this way and one of them is that I resided
    in Los Angeles from 1960-62 and saw that everyday the Hurst newspaper had a
    very large headline with some sensational headline.  As I recall it seemed
    to take up the top third of the front page.

    Also I've had first hand information on stories that were put into print
    or spoken on the news that were either incorrect, slanted or both.

    Again, I've watched a show on PBS, twice now, that dealt with CIA
    activities in Iran and South America.  It was very shocking and although I
    know it was only a story I've developed a certain respect for PBS.  The
    story gave names and dates and even told which U.S. Presidents and their
    associates were involved.

    I think it would be the proper thing that President Bush and President
    Saddam Hussein met, shook hands and then both agreed to have a U.N. hearing
    to determine the fairest solution to all parties.  I thought it was better
    to handle bad situations in a court of law, so to speak.  I don't believe
    that people should take weapons into court either and it seems that all
    sides are armed to the teeth.           Rod

    Message: 69154
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad Max/Germany
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 02:18:45

    The U.S. Military was shocked and surprised at seeing the death camps.
    They were kept a close guarded secret.  Everyone, jew, gypsy, homosexual,
    artist and what not who found out about them were gassed.  The people who
    had first hand information weren't on the list of those to be eliminated and
    they did not want to be either.

    I don't know how anyone outside of Germany could have stopped the
    destruction any earlier because to do so would simply mean that we would
    have had to liberate Germany sooner but as it were the U.S., French,
    English and the Russians were giving it their all.

    The people to blame have changed forms and therefore all we can do is
    learn from that knowledge and not allow it to ever happen.

    Message: 69155
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Numismatics
    Date: 09/03/90  Time: 02:22:01

    Did you know that in 1964 fifty cents would buy what it takes $32 to buy
    now?

                                    All aboard captain.

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