### Apollo BBS Archive - October 4 - 5, 1989

    Mail from Michael Kielsky
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 23:24:50

    Are you still in the locksmithing business?  Do you work anywhere near the
    South-East Valley (i.e. Pointe @ South Mountain area)?  If so, give me a
    call tomorrow at 869-xxxx (work) or 431-xxxx
    7(home).  If my wife is home, just tell her you're a locksmith acquaintance
    of mine.  I need 5 locks rekeyd and possible a dead-bolt installed.

    Thanks.

    Mike
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I'll call.

    Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 61392
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: all sorts of stuff
    Date: 10/03/89  Time: 22:13:35

    RE:  Rally.  Sorry Cliff, I guess I just didn't notice you.  I was trying to
    pay attention to what was going on, on the airwaves (I was volunteered to
    help out with security, yellow armband and all).  Anyway, the rally went
    well and the report in the Republic on Sunday was suprisingly accurate and
    even-handed.  Quite a contrast to their coverage of the first rally.

    RE:  Bob T.  That was a decent bunch of posts.  I especially liked the part
    about "You shall love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, and
    with all your might."  The ORIGINAL source for that is of course Deuteronomy
    Chapter VI, Verse 5.  It is also contained in the most important prayer of
    Judaism, the Shema (taken directly from Deuteronomy VI, starting at Verse
    4).  And your quote "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" is obviously
    the Golden Rule.  It is taken from Leviticus Chapter XIX, Verse 18.  A
    famous Rabbi, years before Jesus' time, by the name of Hillel, was once
    asked by an unbelieving scoffer to condense all of the teachings of Judaism
    while he stood on one foot.  Rabbi Hillel thought for a moment, and
    responded "Whatever is hateful unto you, do not do it unto your fellow; this
    is the whole Torah, the rest is explanation."  I guess emulation is a
    sincere form of flattery.  I say stick with it Bob, you know you're on the
    right track!

    RE:  God creating evil.  Well, that seems simple.  God created everything,
    so God created evil.  Anything less would leave God no longer the Creator.

    Message: 61394
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 03:10:41

    Sorry about that ol chap, you seem to be spinnning in orbits around
    Jupiter... a result of some line noise I was experiencing.
    (Cheap 2400 baud modems)
    Your definition of malapropism must be different from Websters. Simply
    put, the sentence in question ;"Just because you don't know God will not
    make the "determination" he doesn't exist."
    (1) In context with your random comment, this sentence is perfectly
    understandable. It would take less than a 8th grade education to
    understand it.
    (2) There are no -sound alike misused words there.
    To understand this simple sentence, one must first have a knowledge of
    the word "determination". If anyone was misusing words, it was you in your
    original post. A clearer and more concise word in place of it would have
    been ;" We have already *considered*..."
    As for Neanderthals, you can find them on a variety of AM stations talking
    about football and other such sports. This by no means forces me into
    a pro or con postion regarding Neanderthals.
    As for the D.E.A flogging Neanderthals with football horses, well,
    you can lecture the borrowed modem for that, just don't try and lecture
    me. I'm laughing too hard anyway.

    Message: 61395
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Polls
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 03:24:43

    All of the crew down where I work including myself, all voted
    unanimously to vote down the stadium issue.
    Looks like it lost by a wide margin.
    Speaking of Neanderthals...these guys are a role model for the slot.
    On any given work day, if the topic isn't the boss or the wife, it's
    sports. Not that I have anything against sports. Not at all. I love
    to watch both football and baseball. I was on the State team in
    Australia as their pitcher. I like sports. But when the hobby goes
    in further than winning strategies, upsets, and both brilliant and
    stupid moves, then it becomes Neanderthal talk. By reference, it's
    the start of the talk where what I mentioned trails off.
    The volume adjustment on their voices is cranked up so high that they
    drown out the water chiller pumps for terminal 3 with various
    exclamations about parent-hood and their vast vocabulary of four letter
    adjectives that are interjected by more colorful adjectives.
    About 20 seconds into Neanderthal talk, fists start to pound the
    (insert desk top material here) , the audio output is into the
    overdriving stage with clipping and square wave harmonics , tongues
    begin to turn blue and the eyes close, the brain stops functioning
    but the mouth is going full blast into next Christmas. That's neanderthal
    talk. Add beer and you have Cro-magnon.
            -Mike

    Message: 61396
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann/statues
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 05:47:13

     As much as I try to stay out of these merry-go-round debates, I couldn't
    resist commenting on your post concerning the worshipping of statues.
     I have occasion quite often to pass St. Louis the King (King of what?) RC
    church on 43rd Ave & Missouri. THere is a large statue, I think of Mary,
    resident on the front lawn, and many times I have seen people bowing before
    that statue, genuflecting before that statue and, it is assumed, praying to
    that statue. If that isn't idol worship, I never saw any better example.
     If, as the Bible clearly states, the follower of Christ has the indwelling
    Holy Spirit in residence, I fail to see the need for all the statues, beads,
    meaningless words learned by rote memory, etc. If we can talk to the real
    thing, why settle for less, especially stone, cement and/or jewelry?

    Message: 61397
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/games
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 05:51:35

     WEll, thanks to the wisdom of the Phoenix voters, we won't have to worry
    about subsidizing major league baseball in Phoenix! Prop 1 went into the
    trash basket yesterday, just where it belonged!
     Hockey is an excellent spectator event for those who enjoy blood sports,
    but it has failed twice in Phoenix in the past, and I would be surprised if
    the current attempt went anywhere. We are still a city who will not support
    a loser, and a championship team is highly unlikely considering the
    competition.

    Message: 61398
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Election results
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 06:03:40

     For the most part, my confidence in the wisdom of the voters of Phoenix has
    been bolstered.
     Prop 1 is trashed (Hallelujah!), 106 went down, as it should have, and 200
    passed by a wide margin. The mayor and council will have to settle for all
    they can steal, since we won't be doubling their salaries any time soon.
     It seems as though the props concerning monies for purchase and restoration
    of historic places passed, but what the heck. We can't win them all. I still
    think such things should be privately funded.
     As to the mayoral race (?), I don't like Goddard, but he was pretty much a
    given, considering his competition was one man who is still covered with
    Mecham mud and another who probably has trouble walking and chewing gum at
    the same time, at least in the political arena. Oh well, at least Terrible
    Terry can't throw too much of our money away without asking.
    All in all, a good election.

    Message: 61399
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Bob/kneeling
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:25:33

    What would you think of the very same people if they were kneeling in front
    of a statue of Jesus and praying? Idol worship? Hardly! Many people talk to
    their dead loved ones too, but that isn't idol worship either. They just
    believe those that have crossed over can hear them. Catholics revere Mary
    because she was the mother of God. Why not? That makes her pretty special
    doesn't it? Maybe she does have the power to intervene for you. Who knows?
    Prove she doesn't! That's the way it is with religions - each other think
    the other is wrong. But who's right? You can't prove the Catholics are wrong
    anymore than they can prove you wrong - or the Baptists, Mormons,
    Lutherans, etc. Also remember, ALL of these religions SAY they got their
    belief's from the Bible and can open it and find what the want to prove it.
                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61400
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Bob/religions
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:28:33

    I will get the Encyclopaedia out and find out the info on the first church.
    I don't think Peter was made Pope during his life time. Ha. That IS
    Catholic! But they claim to be the first church. It's funny, when I joined
    the Lutherans, they also claimed the same thing. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61401
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/statues
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:36:37

    I too do not see any need for other people to pray too. At one time I did
    and it was VERY comforting though. If I was ill or asking for something, it
    made me feel pretty safe to have a bunch rallying for me in my name. Of
    course, I always talked to God first. Of all the things about the Catholic
    church I like the most - would absolutely be the MOST comforting is the
    'Last Rites'. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61402
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/Hockey
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:41:31

    I know it has failed in Phoenix and never understood why. It would seem the
    perfect spot - it's hot and nothing would be more pleasant than to go to an
    ice rink. It's fast paced and exciting.
    I do not think it is anymore of a 'blood' sport than football is! With
    hockey, it's illegal - with football, it isn't! -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. But I'm glad to know that this sort of thing like the stadium has been
    put to the vote of the people. I'd like to see us voting on more things than
    letting our politicians decide what is good and bad for us.

    Message: 61403
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Vote
    Subject: In today's paper
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:44:15

    I scanned the paper but couldn't tell if Skip Rimsza won or not. They had a
    check by his name that depicted the winner, yet they had one by the
    incumbents name too. It was close, but Skip was clearly ahead.
                          -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61404
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/RRC
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:09:33

    Re:  "The Roman Catholic church is the largest and oldest church within
    Christianity."

    Thanks for the info Rod.  Did it say anything about when the Catholic Church
    was first founded?  I know the Catholics claim Peter founded it, or
    something like that, but I remember reading somewhere once that it was
    really founded 4 or 5 hundred years after Peter.  I have a friend who is a
    historian with a penchant for this sort of thing.  I' check with him and let
    you know what he says.

    Message: 61405
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Michael
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:12:37

    Thanks for the kind words!

    Message: 61406
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:15:53

    Re:  "statue, I think of Mary, resident on the front lawn"

    I drive down 43rd quite often and have seen the very same thing.

    Message: 61407
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:19:48

    I want to reply to your post 61399 off line and upload it.  My reply would
    take up too much time on line.

    Stay tuned to this same station for another exciting chapter in the life and
    times of the RRC!

    Message: 61408
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:25:09

    Re:  "I do not think it is anymore of a 'blood' sport than football"

    Well, if a football player should beat another player over the head with the
    football, not much blood would be shed as compared to a hockey player
    beating another player over the head with a hockey stick.

    If I had to choose between a football and a hockey stick to be beat with, I
    would choose the football.

    Why anyone would want to beat me with a football is beyond me?

    Rod might want to beat me with my Bible?  Hmmmmm.

    Message: 61409
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 12:27:05

    Re: the origin of Catholic - here is what (some) my encyclopedia says ....

    "CATHOLIC CHURCH (Gr.,=universal),the body of Christians, living and dead,
    considered as an organization. It is common for Christian groups to identify
    their particular churches (exclusively or not) as the Catholic Church. The
    word Catholic was first used c.110 to describe the church by St. Ignatius of
    Antoich. In speaking of the time before the Reformation, Catholic is
    technically used to mean orthodox. (i.e. those excepting the degrees of
    Leo 1 and the council of Chalcedon). Today in English it usually means the
    Roman Catholic Church. Protestants use the words in their original sense to
    designate the Christian Church taken as a whole."

    "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: Roman Catholic is a 19th century coinage and merely
    serves to distinguish the Church from other churches that are Catholic."

    "Roman Catholics may be simply defined as Christians in communion with the
    Pope. To belong to the Church one must accept as factually true the gospel
    of Christ as handed down by the Popes." (me - that is why they consider
    Peter the first Pope and abide by what he has written.)

    "CHRISTIANITY: Among religions, Christianity is unusual in it's penchant for
    organization. Christian groups, or churches are of two types - traditional,
    having an unbroken tradition since ancient times, and reformed, aiming to
    restore a primitive state of Christianity. Of the first type, are the two
    largest churches, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Eastern as well as the
    Armenian Church. Most of the reformed churches originated in Western
    Christendom. (see Protestantism)". (me .. the above tells me that the
    original church was Called Catholic - then the Roman Catholic and then the
    branches came into being - one of which you probably belong. When I was a
    Lutheran, they stressed the point that they are Catholics - having gone back
    to the original faith before the Roman Catholics took over.)

    From WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY: "CATHOLIC: Universal, general, all-inclusive. Of
    the Universal Christian Church; of the Christian Church as a whole. One who
    accepts the creeds received in common by all sects of the universal
    Christian Church. CATHOLICISM: The system of doctrine, discipline and
    worship held in common by all denominations of the universal Christian
    Church. (me - note no mention of Roman Catholic!)

    I could not find who the second Pope was - it would certainly be interesting
    to found out. My encyclopedia is small. My point is - you are a Catholic
    whether you know it or not. (grin!) So, what statue are you going to pray
    to?                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61411
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: malapropisms
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 15:28:21

    Spinning in orbits around Jupiter?

    A malapropism is any rediculous misuse of words, not necessarily one which
    involves a confusion between similar sounding words.

    I must admit, however, that you have a point about Neanderthals and AM
    sports discussions.

    Message: 61412
    Author: Steve Cochoran  ***THIS WAS ME
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lawyers
    Date: 10/04/89  Time: 21:32:08

    Dear Reader,

            Two out of every three lawyers in the world live and work in the
    United States.

    Message: 61413
    Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: statues
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 03:06:54

    The statues are merely symbolic. When a Catholic prays while near a statue,
    he is praying to the entity, not a hunk of marble.

    Message: 61414
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:26:47

     In response to a couple of psts from you to Bob (even though he is doing a
    great job of holding his own), you continue to defend the practice of
    praying in an attitude of worship before statues. Let me just say that yes,
    if I saw someone praying to a statue of Jesus, I would consider it idolatry,
    simply for the reason that if they need a piece of stone or cement to put
    them into an attitude of prayer and/or worship, then the statue is the
    object of their worship, and not the Christ who loved them enough to die for
    them, and to defeat death, the final enemy of sinful man, by his
    resurrection.  You also refer to Mary as the mother of God, which is
    strictly a Roman Catholic error, totally unsupportable by any stretch of
    Scripture. Mary was a willing vessel, an obedient servant, who was kept pure
    by God for a specific purpose, since the redeemer of mankind had to be pure
    and spotless from birth, and unstained by sin of any kind. The purpose of
    this, and it is very plainly readable in the Bible, was to fulfill
    completely the ancient Hebrew laws concerning sacrifice. The string that led
    from Moses to Jesus began with the sacrifice of a lamb without spot or
    blemish for each sin of every individual in the nation of Israel, and went
    from there to the sacrifice of a lamb for a household, a lamb for a house
    for a year, a lamb for the sins of the nation for a year, and then, finallym
    the perfect sacrifice, the perfect lamb of God, spotless from the foundation
    of the world, the one sacrifice for all the sins of mankind, past, present
    and future, forever. Somewhere in that great, overall plan of God, Mary fit,
    in a very important, but very small way. Certainly not Mother of God/Queen
    of h

    Message: 61415
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/blood sports
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:29:03

     I have never seen football players go for the jugular on such a regular
    basis as the hockey players do at every game. The violence in hockey seeme
    to ba an inherent part of the game, whereas in football it is secondary to
    moving the ball towards a score. Quite a difference, it seems to me.

    Message: 61416
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Rimza
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:30:31

     Skip Rimza will have to run in yet another, runoff election with the
    incumbent, since a majority (more than 50%) of the vote is required, and
    neither candidate got one. The runoff will probably be sometime next month.

    Message: 61417
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann/Lutheranism
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:37:20

     In an earlier post, you claimed that the Lutheran church of your youth
    claimed to be the first church.
     I doubt that you clearly understood something you were told there, since I
    was born and raised in the Lutheran church, and was confirmed after 2 years
    of confirmation school, in which I was taught all of the precepts, concepts
    and organization of the Lutheran church. The Lutheran church came into being
    only AFTER Martin Luther posted the papers now known as his 95 theses on the
    church door at Wittenburg, Germany. Afte this, he left the Roman church,
    where he had been a monk. The church that bears his name was founded some
    time after that, and thus would have no claim to being the oldest church.
     Neither, for that matter, does the Roman church have any right to that
    claim, since it had it's beginnings several hundred years after the death
    and resurrection of Christ, and after many churches had been founded in just
    about all parts of the then known world.

    Message: 61418
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/statues
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:24:46

    If someone were praying to Jesus in front of His statue, I doubt He would be
    as critical as you are!
    I think Mary is the Mother of God and I don't think she is the Queen of
    Heaven. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61419
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/football
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:31:58

    Gads man! The intire game is nothing but rough play! The point is to
    multilate your opponent(s) as best you can. I.E. where it takes one man to
    pull one man down - ten will pile on top of him after he's down! I think
    it's a sport that was created so that man can go back to his primaevel ways
    which is violence and get paid for it!
    Lets face it - the fans like rough play - fights! Wrestling is one of my
    favorites. Ha. I didn't say I didn't like blood sports! Baseball IS my
    favorite and there are few fights - but when there is, I love it!
    Do you remember the old Roller Derby? Talk about blood sports!
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61420
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul/Lutheran
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:40:26

    When the Lutherans told me they were the first church, they meant they went
    back to the teachings of! I belonged to the Missouri Synod Lutherans.
    Why do you assume I didn't understand? I belonged to that church for four
    years - went to Bible study three times a week and taugh Sunday school. I
    find when I don't agree with you, you label me as 'not understanding'!
    Re: no one has the right to claim they they are the oldest church. (their
    teachings) .... what then, WAS the first church? You are quick to condemn,
    but slow to explain. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61421
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: News Today
    Subject: In today's paper
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:53:19

    For all of you that believe in the Bible word for word - here is a little
    tidbit ---- "New genetic evidence has strengthened the claim that all people
    alive today are decended from one African woman and suggest that the woman
    lived 140,000 years ago"! Doesn't that put a little kink in the belief that
    man was made by God first and then Eve? Kind of like the old question, 'what
    comes first, the chicken or the egg'?

    Something else I found out that surprised me and I found it in all places
    in the Dear Abby column ....  seems there is only 250,000 case of Aids world
    wide! Considering the world population, that is a drop in the bucket! From
    the news media's stand point, it is a fast growing epidemic that subtlly
    suggests that it will wipe mankind off the face of the earth eventually. I
    bet more people world wide gets polio more than they do Aids.

    Sad news - the wonderful race horse Secretariat had to be put to sleep at 19
    because of a painful hoof disease. He won the Triple Crown in 1973. I think
    he was the last to do so. I'm not sure on that though. Anyone know?
                               -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61422
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Churches
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 10:41:46

            Don't take this wrong...  But I as a rule, do NOT like Churches!
    They are buildings.... The Catholics have the most expensive churches even
    in poor communities.  Church buildings seem to be a business and are a form
    of Idol worship to me.   All one really needs is the Bible....  and maybe a
    simple place to meet with others to pray together
            Some small communities are bled dry to errect a fancy building...
    I find something very wrong with that!

            I grew up in Fall River, Massachusetts... Catholics EVERYWHERE!
    They pray to charms, statues, pictures on the wall.....and here in Arizona,
    they even will pray to a Yucca Branch!

            Now the exception:  I have been to some very plain Churches.
    Nothing more than a room with chairs or benches to sit on.  We would talk
    about the Bible...and what it ment to us.  We were not made to feel guilty
    about the need to fill the offering plate when it was passed around.

            To undersatnd the Bible and accept Jesus into your heart is all one
    needs.  To me, that is a CHRISTIAN!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61429
    Author: Boris Blank
    Category: Tales & Tall Stories
    Subject: an exercise
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:23:06

         Herbert's art gallery was not in a good section of town.  Herbert had
    always wanted his own gallery, even if it wasn't more than a storefront.
    "The more industrial, the better," he'd say.  "It's not supposed to make you
    feel right at home; it's supposed to make people think."  He found just the
    spot, downtown, two buildings down from a homeless shelter.  Gallery Zero.
    Bums slept in nearby doorways, in full view of all the aesthetically correct
    people who came in for their fix of subculture.
         Though not a confessed art lover, Hector often came to the gallery.  He
    enjoyed being among artistic, intelligent people, even if they were only
    just playing at being artistic and intelligent.
          Hector didn't mind the transients.  He didn't mind them coming  up to
    ask him for money on his way out to the van.  He liked the feeling it gave
    him to help someone otherwise helpless.  And he liked to get a little
    theistic reaction out of a bum before giving him some money.
         One night, after a loud, abstract show at Gallery Zero, Hector was on
    his way out of the gallery, and was feeling pretty high.  A bum saw Hector
    getting out the keys to his van and approached.
         "Do you got some money you can give me, man?"
         "Do you believe in God?," Hector asked, with a cocky voice and
    devilment in his eyes.
         "Huh?  What...yeah, course I believe in God.  So can you spare some
    change?"
         "I'll tell you what.  I'll give you some money.  But you have to do
    something first."

         The bleary-eyed bum was getting angry.  "Oh, man.  What...what do you
    want?"
         "I want you to say, 'God eats sh*t.'  Then I'll give you some money."
         The bum's eyes widened.  "WHAT?!  Why should I!  No way, no way will I
    say that kinda sh*t about God!"
         Hector smiled, shrugged his shoulders and said, "Okay, okay, forget it
    then," and started to walk towards the van.
         The bum followed him.  "C'mon, man, don't do this."
         "Those are the rules," Hector said.  "Sorry."
         "Wait...wait."  The bum stood silently for a moment, his eyes closed.
    He sighed.  "Okay, hold on."  He opened his eyes.  "God...eats...sh*t."
         Hector smiled.  "That's better."  He put his hand in his pocket.
         Normally, after a hard day of fixing clocks (for Hector was a
    clocksmith), Hector had a buck or two of change in his pockets.  Today was
    different.  Hector had only twelve cents - two nickels, two pennies.  He
    dropped the twelve cents, along with a little pocket fluff, into the ashamed
    bum's outstretched hand.  Hector made ready to make a fast break to the van.
     The bum didn't look at the change until he had already turned around and
    started to walk away.  But then he stopped and stared into the gleaming,
    useless little coins that had bought insults to God.  "Son of a B*TCH!"
         "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man!"  Hector started to run.  The bum was
    faster.  He almost had the van door open but the bum shoved Hector's face
    into the side mirror.  The first thing Hector noticed was the taste of hot
    blood.

         Hector was on the asphalt, curling up into a fetal position, all the
    while writhing like a snake that had been caught.  The bum was kicking him
    in his ribs.  All Hector could do was say, "No...no..."
         "YOU eat sh*t!  YOU eat sh*t!," the bum cried, to the beat of his sharp
    kicks.
         Like a messenger from heaven, a police car on patrol pulled up,
    flashing lights.  In time to save Hector's life.

    Message: 61433
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob/Catholics
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:54:54

    The Catholics of Rome do claim that Peter was the founder.  It is said that
    Peter is buried on Vatican Hill.  However no hard proof exists.  It is most
    probably something that will never be known by humans.

    I believe that Catholic Church of Rome came into existence around 100 A.D.
    This is also around the time, give or take twenty years, when the scriptures
    were written.

    Do you believe that a person who goes all through life, never being baptised
    or accepting that J.C. was the son of God, can enter heaven?

    Message: 61434
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Beat over head.
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:57:07

            The only bible I would beat over your head would have to be the new,
    Nerf (R) bible.  It looks like a real bible but is used to sit on and make
    the pews more comfortable during long boring sermons.  -Rod

    Message: 61435
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Boris Blank
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:00:00

    Interesting story.  Is it true?

    Message: 61436
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alters
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:01:20

    Well, I have this alter that is made up of dollar bills.  I just sit and
    pray to the god of money.  And you know......it works.

    Message: 61437
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:35:22

    Re:  "My point is - you are a Catholic whether you know it or not. (grin!)
    So, what statue are you going to pray to?"

    Well, according to the definition, I'm a Catholic!  Ha!  But, I'm not a
    Roman Catholic!  BTY, the following 3 messages are in answer to your post of
    yesterday.

    Message: 61438
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:42:29

    Re:  "What would you think of the very same people if they were kneeling in
    front of a statue of Jesus and praying? Idol worship?"

    Yes!  According to the Bible it is.  Listen to Exodus 20:4-5

    (NIV)  "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in
    heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not
    bow down to them or worship them; - - -"

    These verses are part of the 10 commandments.  To bow down to, or worship
    anything, idol, statue, etc. is wrong according to the Bible.

    Re:  "Catholics revere Mary because she was the mother of God."

    Mary *is* the mother of Jesus in his humanity; she is definitely not the
    mother of God.

    Re:  "Maybe she does have the power to intervene for you. Who knows?  Prove
    she doesn't!

    She doesn't!  The Bible says so.

    1 Timothy 2:5  (NIV)   For there is one God and one mediator between God and
    men, the man Christ Jesus,

    How can Mary be a mediator when the Bible says there is only one?

    Re:  "That's the way it is with religions - each other think the other is
    wrong. But who's right? You can't prove the Catholics are wrong anymore than
    they can prove you wrong - or the Baptists, Mormons, Lutherans, etc.

    There are some things the Bible doesn't address, and I suppose anyone can
    guess what might be true or false in those cases.  But many denominations
    pass their guesses off as fact.

    But most of the time the Bible clearly tells us what is fact, and what is
    fiction.  So when people tell me, "Mary will be your mediator to God."  I
    know it is false.  And when the same group of people keep telling me "facts"
    that don't agree with the Bible, I get sceptical about anything they tell
    me.

    Re:  "ALL of these religions SAY they got their belief's from the Bible and
    can open it and find what the want to prove it."

    Ok, since Mary (bless her heart) is the main topic here, show me in the
    Bible where it says we are suppose to pray to her?  You can't!  It's not in
    the Bible!

    It's time to separate fact from fiction, and the Bible (if you accept it as
    the word of God) is the only standard God has given us.  If you reject the
    Bible as God word, it's all moot anyway.

    Message: 61441
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:48:41

    Re:  "Do you believe that a person who goes all through life, never being
    baptised or accepting that J.C. was the son of God, can enter heaven?"

    There could be a lot of conditions here so I'D must provide a general answer
    to your general question.

    If a man goes through his whole life  and continually reject Jesus Christ as
    lord, he will not go to heaven.

    If by baptism you mean water baptism, water baptism has nothing to do with
    going to heaven.

    Message: 61442
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Guilty on all counts
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 19:24:32

            Baker is found GUILTY on all count....  GREAT!  I hope they give him
    the max sentence.  (one hundred some odd years)  And for stealing money form
    those who can't afford it...  I hope he does not go to Heaven this time
    around.   Frauds like that give GOOD Christians a bad name.

            *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61443
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob Thornburg
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 19:56:36

    Excellent answers. Let the bible speak for itself.
    Let not the words of wisdom be spoken into the ears of the foolish,
    for they will despise you for it.
    Good posts.

    Message: 61444
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Lawyers in the U.S.
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 20:04:22

    RE: "Two out of every three lawyers in the world live and work in the U.S."

    ...along that same thread...

    did you know that 3 out of every 5 criminals in the world are free and
    wandering around in the U.S. ??
    (hmmm)

    Message: 61445
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Oudin
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 20:10:42

    The object of football is not to mutilate your opponents, but rather to run
    the ball into their end zone.

    Message: 61446
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:14:34

    Assuming your question wasn't rhetorical (it may well have been), it seems
    obvious enough, from the omniscient narrator, from the dramatic (some might
    argue melodramatic...well, let's just come out and say it...overwrought)
    embellishments, etc., that it is not true.  It appears to be a morality
    tale, whose message is "mess with God and something bad will happen to you."

    Message: 61447
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Skip Rimza
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:18:32

    Sounds like a Martin Short character...a weasely, two-bit, petty-thief.
    On that basis, I urge responsible individuals everywhere to oppose him.

    Message: 61449
    Author: Jeff Beck
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Nick/statues
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:39:31

    Why pray "to", a statue if it is purely symbolic?  Why face the statue,
    kneel in front of the statue, if one is not, at least to some degree,
    directing one's thoughts and feelings toward the statue?  I realise that
    Catholics don't see statues as the actual embodiment of the entity they are
    praying to, but clearly it is felt that the statue is endowed with some sort
    of spiritual essence...or perhaps it represents some spiritual link to the
    entity in question...as though this entity was aware of all the statues of
    itself and sort of looking down at them all to see who might be praying at
    them. All of this seems incredibly psychotic.  Mind you, I'm not singling
    out Catholics, or for that matter Christians, or even religious people.  It
    just seems typical of a race of beings who are, to one degree or another,
    quite insane.  Of course, what would you expect when you take the nervous
    system and lower brain functions of an animal and "graft" on brain
    structures capable of analytical thought, but largely subserviant to the
    lower systems?  Exactly what you see...a lot of creatures responding to
    their base motivations with a process of rationalisation. A network of
    beliefs and assumptions designed to give legitamacy and rational meaning to
    their primitive impulses and responses to the world.

    Message: 61450
    Author: Michael Kielsky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Heaven/Hell
    Date: 10/05/89  Time: 23:06:39

    I doubt that God would be so petty as to banish those who merely disbelieve
    J.C.'s divinity, to an eternal life in hell.  Actually, I kindof doubt the
    existence of heaven or hell.

    And I have always been confused as to exactly how one can reconcile belief
    in a deistic trinity with a claim to monotheism?  Isn't that actually
    incompatible?

    Note:  These are honest questions, not really criticisms.  Any well-thought
    out answers will be read and mentally digested.

    Michael "I'm the NRA" Kielsky

    Message: 61451
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Bob/J.C.
    Date: 10/06/89  Time: 01:34:18

    What if a Jewish person, one who was taught the Torah, rejected J.C. for his
    entire life, would he not enter heaven?

    Or what if a Christian who was REALLY a dork tried to convert a friend but
    instead really turned that person off.  Consequently that person went his
    whole life believing that Christians were just a bunch of dorks.  You know,
    Bob, it appears that the Christian God does not lend any help to those who
    and trying to win converts to Him.  In fact, there are now more agnostics
    & atheists on this planet than ever before in history.  Thanks to science.

    And do you believe that the Christian God helped out this, a Christian
    Nation, in the Viet Namn conflict?  After all, we Americans were fighting
    Communists.  What think ye?  -Rod

    Message: 61452
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Kielsky/Heaven-Hell
    Date: 10/06/89  Time: 01:46:06

    I agree with your post.  I also do not believe there exists a 'magic fairly
    land' where all good people go, nor do I believe that all bad people go to a
    torture chamber.  It's just too melodramatic.

    For instance, what if an individual just squeaked by, was just good enough
    to make it to heaven, but was not REAL REAL good?  Would that person get the
    same heavenly reward as a great, good person?

    Or if someone was just bad enough to get into hell, just barely kept from
    heaven.  Would that person get the same punishment as a REAL bad person?

    And, mind you, according to the story, this reward/punishment is no less
    than forever, as if it can be conceived by anyone.  No....there are much
    more enlightening books in print and the bible is nothing I would want to
    spend my life trying to understand.  Why bother.  It is too bad that all
    those living trees had to be killed in order to print all that nonsense.
                                            Rod

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