### Apollo BBS Archive - July 12, 1987

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* $tatus Club Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1529
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: KFYI
    Date: 07/11/87  Time: 19:50:03

    Is there any way I could get a tape or transcript of today's debate?

    Message: 1530
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/11/87  Time: 20:05:06

    If you really meant KHEP, I can make a tape for you or loan you one.

    Message: 1531
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: wicca et al
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 00:41:35

    Perhaps not so much of a switch as you might think. One whacked out
    lifestyle is as good as another to those seeking one.

    Message: 1532
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:28:38

    It would be better if you would start debating.

    Message: 1533
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Idea for thought
    Subject: Wicca
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 10:10:31

      The odd thing was that this woman was actually very reasonable and
    intellegent, some things I have noted that most evangelicals lack.
      She was quite willing to admit that of the two kinds of devil worshipers
    (those that worship Satan explicitly, and those that have different beliefs
    that you do) the Wiccans are the second type.
      I heard the bit about D&D.  I do know that some D&D players do really get
    wacked out, but I think that that is from problems they already suffer from,
    and isn't 'caused' by D&D.  Quite frankly, if I had to choose between the
    Wiccans and the Bakkers and Oral Robberts, I'd take Wicca.

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 1534
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: James/debate
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 12:03:02

    I love a good debate - but we just look at what the word debate means
    differently. You will find that most of mine are based on what I see, hear,
    experienced etc. To me - this makes them a fact!! I do not truly know how
    you come to your conclusions - but do you not think they are facts too? A
    good debate is two people telling each other their opinions on a subject -
    each making points - each learning from the other - each having an open
    mind.! I'm sure you feel the same - but yet, you seem to not want me to
    voice my opinions. You appear to be "Looking down" on me instead of
    listening. I don't mean I expect you to agree - I mean I want you to respect
    my opinion also.  How can I ever learn from you if you constantly put me on
    the defence all the time? -- ANN

    Message: 1535
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: all/missing
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 12:06:26

    Has anyone noticed that Michelle hasn't been on the board for a while? Guess
    shes having more fun on "Wild Banana".

    Message: 1536
    Author: $ Nikki Kalua
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Wild Banana
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 14:12:48

    I bet!

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 45046
    Author: $ Mark Adkins
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 00:38:40

    "The flower children are still blooming"?

    Have you been visiting Fiddler's Dream coffee house again?

    heh heh...

    Message: 45047
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Hamilton
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:09:48

    Conducting foreign policy is the job of the Executive Branch, not the
    Congress.  The Boland Amendment (which, oddly enough, is treated with more
    reverence than the Bill of Rights by liberals) was an obscure, and probably
    unconstitutional, rider to an appropriations bill.  Violating "the spirit of
    the Boland amendment" is a slightly less egregious offense than violating
    the spirit of the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit.  Congress's views on
    the Nicaraguan freedom-fighters hardly are worthy of serious consideration
    anyway, since they have flip-flopped so many times.

    Let us face facts.  Congressional Democrats are not looking after any lofty
    principles.  They are engaging in a petty partisan battle, trying to
    discredit the President and improve their chances of taking the White House
    in 1988.  They have found a formidable foe in Oliver North, and he is a
    hero, for he has, more than anyone, focused on the real scandal, which is
    Congressional indecision about the Communist threat in Central America.  I
    too have misgivings about the covert way the freedom-fighters were aided.
    The Reagan Administration should have openly and aggressively promoted
    aiding the freedom-fighters, not just in Nicaragua but in Angola,
    Mozambique, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Ethiopia, and anywhere else where
    anti-communist guerilla movements exist.  Unfortunately, within the
    administration there is the same ambivalence as in Congress:  it pushes aid
    to the Nicaraguan freedom-fighters, gives some aid to the Angolans and
    Afghans (in spite of the efforts of some State Department officials) and
    supports foreign aid (including $1 million in military aid) to the

    Message: 45048
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Continued
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:12:11

    Communists in Mozambique!

    What is scandalous is not that Oliver North and the NSC covertly supported
    the freedom-fighters in Nicaragua.  What is scandalous is that our
    government is so wishy-washy that support for freedom-fighters has to be
    conducted covertly.  The United States should stand tall and declare itself
    a friend of any people that is trying to throw off the yoke of Communist
    oppression.

    Message: 45049
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:23:08

    Of course statistics can be used in a misleading fashion.  But to reject
    statistics altogether because statistics can be lies makes as much sense as
    disbelieving anything said in English because it is possible to lie while
    speaking English.

    Statistics are necessary in order to test general statements about the way
    things are.  Let us say you buy a lottery ticket for $1 and win $5,000.  It
    is not reasonable to conclude from that that lottery tickets offer a
    500,000% return on your investment.  Your particular lottery ticket did, but
    in order to make a general statement about the value of lottery tickets, you
    would have to look at a large, random sample of the tickets.

    Similarly, if you are in a situation where you are paid less than a man for
    doing the same job, you may be able to conclude that you are being
    discriminated against on the basis of your sex.  You certainly cannot
    conclude from this, however, that "Women are discriminated against on the
    basis of their sex."  You may be the exception, rather than the rule, just
    like the $5,000 lottery ticket.  And in order to find out which you are, you
    have to look at the statistics.

    Of course, statistics can be misleading because there are often many factors
    involved (as indeed there are in individual cases:  the discrepancy between
    your pay and the man's isn't necessarily due to discrimination--perhaps he
    has seniority, perhaps he simply does a better job than you).  So it is

    Message: 45050
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Continued
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:27:04

    important to be careful in interpreting statistics.  Common sense is a good
    check on statistics:  those which sound too absurd to mesh with common sense
    (women earn 59 cents on the dollar men earn, 2 million homeless Americans, a
    million missing children, 50% of women molested as children) can be checked
    for either outright fraud (homeless, molestataion) or misleading
    interpretations (not accounting for other factors, as in the 59-cent stat
    which I have already explained, or the million missing kids which doesn't
    distinguish between runaways and actual kidnap victims).

    View all statistics with skepticism.  Look for factors not accounted for.
    But to throw up your hands and say, "I don't believe in statistics" is to
    take a terribly close-minded attitude.  You might as well just say, "Look, I
    don't want to think."

    Message: 45051
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Politics
    Subject: JT
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 10:02:31

      The Boland Ammendment:
      Maybe it was unconstitutional, but that should have been decided by the
    third branch of government, the Judicial branch.  Our government is not
    three independent branches, but three branches that cover each other by
    checks and balances.  I think the Iran-Contra hearings qualify as a "check."
    Should the executive branch of the government be allowed to ignore any law
    passed by Congress that they don't like?  My problem is not with whether the
    Contras should be supported or not.  My problem is the means that North &
    co. used.  The ends don't justify the means!
      Here's something that was pointed out to me:  The arms that were sold to
    Iran were originaly US govt. property, so it seems to me that any profits
    of their sale belongs to the US govt. too, not the Contas.
      Just for the record, here's a summary of what I think is wrong with this
    whole mess:
    1> You don't sell arms to Iran.
    2> You don't swap arms for hostages.
    3> Officials should be accountable to the American public for their actions.
      From what North testifyed, William Casey wanted to set up a CIA-like
    organization that was not accountable to anyone at all.  Oh boy.
      I do agree that North looks better on TV than the congressmen do.  I also
    think that has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.
         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 45052
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James/more
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 11:46:56

    Well, we do agree on the statistics subject anyway - but I did not say I
    threw up my hands at them - I just look at statistics with a close eye and
    never believe them 100% ---- ANN
    P.S. How can we basically agree on most things - yet never seem to be
    getting along very well? SO many subjects you talk about I have to/do agree
    with. The woman subject is not one of them - A.

    Message: 45054
    Author: Rob Westover
    Category: For sale
    Subject: computer programs
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 15:29:28

    My name is Rob Westover ( Owner Of Westover Software ) and I have lots of
    programs for sale for all kinds of computers . If  you  want any call   me
    at 834-7376 .
    -------------------------------compurer types------------------------------
    Apple , Atari , C-64 , C-128 ,  IBM , Tandy  1000 , TRS-80 color computer ,
    ad even some for the old  Vic -20 computer .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------PROGRAMS---------------------------------
    MS-DOS , Word Perfect , Super Color Terminal , OS9-Operating System Disk
    , lots of games  , and other neat useful programs.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Message: 45055
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 16:04:19

    ...
      So far, we don't seem to have been really shocked by
    anything among the items of new knowledge.  There is suprise,
    even astonishment, but not yet dismay.  Perhaps it is still
    too early to expect this, and it may lie just ahead.
      It is not too early to begin looking for trouble.  I can
    sense some, for myself anyway, in what is being learned
    about organelles.  I was raisd in the belief that these were
    obscure little engines inside my cells, owned and operated
    by me or my cellular delegates, private, submicroscopic bits
    of my intelligent flesh.  Now, it appears, some of them, and
    the most important ones at that, are total strangers.
      The evidence is strong, and direct.  The membranes lining
    the inner compartment of mitochondria are like other animal
    cell membranes, and resemble most closely the membranes of
    bacteria.  The DNA of mitochondria is qualitatively
    different from the DNA of animal cell nuclei and strikingly
    similar to bacterial DNA; it is closely associated with
    membranes.  The RNA of mitochondria matches the organelles'
    DNA, but not that of the nucleus.  The ribosomes inside the
    mitochondria are similar to bacterial ribosomes, and
    different from animal ribosomes.  The mitochondria do not
    arise *de novo* in cells; they are always there, replicating
    on their own, independently of the replication of the cell.

    Message: 45056
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 16:13:04

    They travel down from egg to newborn; a few come in with the
    sperm, but most are maternal passengers.
      The chloroplasts in all plants are, similarly, independent
    and self-replicating lodgers, with their own DNA and RNA and
    ribosomes.  In structure and pigment content they are the
    images of prokaryotic blue-green algae.  It has recently
    been reorted that the nucleic acid of chloroplasts is, in
    fact, homologous with that of certain photosynthetic
    microorganisms.
      There may be more.  It has been suggested that flagellae
    and cilia were once spirochetes that joined up with the
    other prokaryotes when nucleated cells were being pieced
    together.  The centrioles and basal bodies are believed in
    some quarters to be semiautonomous organisms with their own
    separate genomes.  Perhaps there are still others, still
    unrecognized.
      I only hope I can retain title to my nuclei.

    Message: 45057
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mark/Coffee House
    Date: 07/12/87  Time: 19:30:16

    No, but why don't we go there some weekend evening....in fact post it for a
    GT.

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