### Apollo BBS Archive - August 8, 1990

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 19:46:21

            Sure I can expect them to lead good lives--with Santa, the Easter
    Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Alice in Wonderland, leprechauns, and dozens more.
    The fancies and imaginations of life develop curiosity and humor.
            And no, it is not up to the "believers" to prove the existence of a
    creator. Science cannot disprove it. Even science finds validity in the
    existence of a non-material existence--the after-death, out-of-body
    phenomenon. (I don't want to argue this--don't totally believe it, but many
    docotrs and other scientists do.)
            And above all: faith or belief cannot be arrived at by science or
    logic.  It requires the "leap of faith" that Augustine described. So the
    "believers" need only believe, not prove.
            And they should live the belief: worshipping a kind, loving,
    merciful God.     --John C.--
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Did you know that you have the same initials as Jesus Christ?

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 68386
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C.
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 00:25:57

       When you met these men who claimed that women love to be beaten
    and that this is an aid to good sex, did you kill them? If not, why
    not?
       If Rod seems uptight about hell to you, consider that he sees
    himself as a man living amongst hordes of people who are fanatically
    devoted to an ancient and disreputable mythology. A mythology which
    arose from man's insecurities about the unknown; gained power as it
    ruthlessly supplanted as many competing mythologies as it could; and
    has repressed man's attempts to objectively learn about the mysteries
    it shrouds in superstition all the way into the present. He sees it
    as a mythology which takes pride in frightening people into
    submission, and knows that these faithful hordes have a long history
    of violently suppressing those who do not knuckle under to the deity
    they have so long and lovingly crafted.

       You dispute the story of hell being intended to frighten children
    out of thinking on their own. But that horrible tale is the experience
    of most people, and the very badge of submission which devotees gladly
    claim for themselves is that of being a 'God Fearing' person. Your
    version of hell is more of the same, fear of being left out when God
    suddenly changes his ways, stops using the earth as a torture chamber,
    and sorts those who he created and abused into those who get into the
    clubhouse and those who don't. Gee, since he knows and sees all, and
    all time is open to him, why didn't he just skip the death camp part
    and put the same group of toys (people) into the good pile without
    going through the fruitless exercise of making a bunch of flawed ones
    and then tormenting all of them in order to sort them out again?
       Christians propagate this stuff and then wonder why some mixed-up
    kids end up as devil worshippers. If Satan is the answer to why God
    puts us through this perverted exercise then either Satan is a major
    dude who has as much power as God and might smile on people who
    worship him, or we are back to a totally demented God who created and
    uses Satan as an excuse for his deranged schemes.

       Now if you put yourself in Rod's place and think of this
    surrounding horde as it must appear to anyone who is not a subscriber
    to its outlandish rituals, you see that it is something which can not
    be ignored. Would you ignore it if you woke up tomorrow to find that
    most of the people in the U.S. had converted to a new religion which
    worshipped Satan and preached to the young that they would be
    sentenced to eternally freeze and suffocate in the dreaded clouds of
    Heaven if they did not accept Satan as their Lord, or at very least
    they would be left to suffer the horror of being left behind as their
    more righteous brethren were accepted into the Devil's loving embrace
    and admitted to the wonders of an everlasting, warm, blissful life in
    Hell? If you dared to speak out against this treatment of children you
    would be a man of courage, not just a man of petty, uptight
    sensibilities who was dwelling on an unimportant thing in order to
    annoy his neighbors.
       See You Later,
         Dean H.

    Message: 68389
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mike C.
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 01:54:43

    You said:
      'I am interested in what you believe to be the "functions of love" that
    take place and how you can, in the same breath, say that the "functions
    of God were as well fullfilled..." without first off having some proof
    love exists. You believe in love the same way I believe in God. There is
    no difference.'

    You seem to have missed the point of my message. It said:
       'Whether love exists or not, its function does take place. People form
    long term bonds which are called Love, among other things. If the supposed
    functions of God were as well fulfilled we could believe in God as easily
    as we do in Love. We don't fall in love by believing in Love, it happens.
    Next case.'

      Clearly I am saying that simple observation tells each of us that the
    bonds we speak of as resulting from love do exist, even though love itself
    resists precise analysis. There is a difference between believing in an
    ill-defined thing because its effects are universal and obvious, and
    believing in an incredible thing because a vocal segment of the world's
    people vehemently claim that it is so. Note again, that love doesn't have
    to be believed in before it can happen. That removes it from the realm of
    things that anyone could dream up, and puts into the realm of real-world
    phenomena.

    You Say:
      'If you can prove to yourself that love exists
    between two entities, then you must also accept it exists between
    other entities other than yourself.'

      Knowing that the effects of what we call 'love' do exist between two
    entities I am quite prepared to accept that they also exist between
    others. Fine.

    You Say:
      'It's not the fact the people don't believe in God...it's that they
    simply don't want him in their lives. Some people don't want love and
    fight and resist it at every turn.'

      Are you saying that everyone believes in God, that people like me
    just pretend to disbelieve? Is the supposed existance of people who
    don't want love, even though love exists, meant to imply that the
    rejection of God affirms his existance?

    You Say:
      'Now, in previous dialogue, some folks want to doubt the love I feel
    between God and me. That's fine. It's just like me doubting the love
    you have for your wife or kids. Just because you have absolutely no way
    to *prove* your love,  doesn't prove it fails to exist.... The burden of
    proof theory is blown out the window. Next case.'

      We have a bad comparison here. You have gone from a question of whether
    love in general exists, and we all know that its effects are real, to a
    question of whether an instance of bonding between certain entities can
    be proven. Nobody has cast any doubt on the love you feel between yourself
    and God, only on the existance of that God. The love a person might feel
    toward an imaginary being is just as real as any other, since it depends
    only on the mind of the person involved. The telling comparison would
    be my proof that my wife and kids exist to your proof that your God exists.
      The fact that the burden of proof lies with the one who makes an
    assertion is certainly not blown out the window. If you want to match
    your assertion that your love for God is real against my assertion that
    I love my wife and kids, neither of us will be able to prove those
    assertions, but that does not change the rules. We must accept not being
    able to prove our innermost motives to others, in return for not being
    required to believe every story that can be cooked up in such a way that
    it can not be disproven.
      See You Later,

    Message: 68392
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/66386-88
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 02:11:50

    Fabulously well put...

    Not to change the subject, but in the mean time, what do you think the
    answer to the sudden rise in oil prices is?  How would you characterize the
    problem (i.e. greed, etc.)?  I take it that you would not support government
    regulation.

    Message: 68393
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Middle East
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 02:37:59

    Here are my predictions regarding the current middle east crisis:

    The fireworks won't REALLY start for about four weeks, give or take half a
    week.

    Nuclear weapons will be involved at some point.

    Ann Landers will give birth to a litter of Angora kittens.

    The phrase, "I've got a message for you, and you aren't going to like it"
    will take on new meaning.

    Ants.  Lots of 'em.

    Once the Genie is let out of the bottle, it'll be a devil of a time trying
    to put him back in.

    The number one group on the pop charts will be an unknown group from
    Liverpool named Chesterfield Kings -- or maybe the Beatles...I'm not sure.

    Message: 68394
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/lust
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 05:26:49

     The physical desire that one feels for a mate is a natural attitude in a
    love relationship. That is not lust. It is rather a product of a larger,
    more intimate relationship, one that really cannot be felt outside of
    commitment. It's not the easiest difference to describe, but there is a
    great difference between the physical love of a married couple, for
    instance, and the purely sexual drive of a man or woman for anything of the
    opposite gender.
     I agree totally that, in a good marriage with a solid foundation, other
    aspects of the relationship replace sexual attraction on the priority scale.
    I don't think it ever dies, though. At least I hope not!

    Message: 68395
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: News Today
    Subject: The mid-east
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 05:31:45

     Judging from the interviews that Dan Rather has been doing in Jordan, etc.
    I think that Bush would be making the mistake of his llife if he sent U.S.
    troops into Iraq, or anyplace else in the Arab world. There are plenty of
    Jordanians, and Arabs of every nation, who swear that they would come to the
    aid of Saddam Hussein if the U.S. intervened in what they consider Arab
    business. They may not like Hussein, but they hate us. If we do go over
    there, we better be prepared for a large operation and a long stay.

    Message: 68396
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff on new war
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 09:37:28

    I'm against getting involved in these situations with other countries. It
    could turn into another Viet Nam. Just because our gas/oil is threatened is
    no reason. We have our own oil stored all over the country. There is no
    reason for our gas prices to go up like they have either. Gasoline is no
    reason for one of our guys getting killed.
    I will say - at least other countries are involved, not just us.
                                    -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68397
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C on hell
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 09:45:56

    NO - it was not apparent to me at the time. The nuns, priests and pastor
    convinced me that hell was pain, suffering. I remember quite vividly a nun
    telling us how it felt to be in hell ... she said there was no pain as
    terrible a person could suffer on earth - and that you'd have other
    suffering such as being sleepy all the time and never being able to go to
    sleep - that the Devil would taunt you with his pitch fork. I realize this
    was just for the children, but what a thing to tell them! I believed with my
    whole heart all they told me and so did the other children. The Lutheran
    church was less discriptive, but non the less, it amounted to the same
    thing ... be good and go to Heaven ... be bad and go to the devil!
    BTW - I wondered at the time how that nun knew what hell felt like - but my
    concious bothered me and I confessed to the priest later that I had the gaul
    to question one of the nuns! But if you think this was bad, you ought to go
    to a Holy Roller church type sometimes and get a load of what they tell you
    about the pains of hell! BURN BABY BURN!!! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68398
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peaceable John
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 09:47:30

    I doubt that the Iraq's are going to turn into another Hitler John. Lets
    keep this thing is prospective! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68399
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike #68381
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 09:51:26

    We may differ on some opinions - but I certainly agree with your post number
    68381. You couldn't have said it better. It is time for the 'biggie' and
    long over due. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68400
    Author: $ Melissa Dee
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod on person
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 10:15:51

    A person who does not lust -
    Sue Widemark.
    I believe she is still ticking.

    Message: 68401
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 10:56:48

    Re:  "That's one thing Rod is not - tight and tense about anything to do
    with religion."

    Maybe "tight and tense" are the wrong words.  When you consider that Rod is
    an avowed atheist, but yet he probably writes more about God and hell than
    anyone else on Apollo, you know he has something stuck in first gear.  Maybe
    the correct word is "fixation".

    Message: 68402
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 10:57:53

    Re:  "I really don't give a rodents glutimus maximus if I have to pay $20.00
    a gallon. I'll just learn to use a bicycle."

    An increase in gas prices could have a positive effect on several things.
    It could cut down on traffic and related negative effects.  Maybe we could
    walk or ride our bike to the corner store for that loaf of bread.  Americans
    as a whole could sure use the exercise.  Most countries of the world pay 4
    times as much for gas as Americans.  If Bush is going to increase taxes, I
    think gas tax is a great place to start.  Does anyone know how long the
    world supply of petroleum will last at the present rate of consumption?
    There is a limited supply; sooner or later we will run out.  Then I guess
    it's back to horses.

    Message: 68403
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 10:58:29

    Re:  "The death penalty does not stop crime."

    I never saw a dead man commit a crime.  I never saw a dead man get arrested.
     I never saw a dead man go to trial.

    However, I have seen many cases where murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc.
    (all these crimes have at one time carried the death penalty) were released
    back to society and repeated their crimes.

    So maybe the death penalty does not stop crime, but execution will sure stop
    a person from repeating a crime.  Stops him "dead"!

    Maybe what you meant to say was, "The death penalty does not deter crime."
    But I disagree with that too.

    Message: 68404
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Annie
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 11:02:55

    Re:  "It could turn into another Viet Nam."

    Not likely.  Viet Nam had the backing of Red China.  Iraq doesn't have any
    backing.  Even the Communists say Iraq is wrong.

    Message: 68405
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Melissa
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 11:04:51

    Speaking of Sue Widemark, I haven't heard from her in ages.  Does she log on
    anywhere these days?

    Message: 68406
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: mideast conflict
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 13:45:23

    I believe that there will be some significant incident there. They know Iraq
    forces are loading up poison weapons and the US just sent a bunch of people
    over there...there's a lot of hardware hanging around the gulf, and that's
    not just the American fleet, either. The one fortunate thing is that most of
    the world seems to support keeping Iraq from trying to go any farther (even
    Turkey and Saudi Arabia are helping out...Egypt allegedly sent soldiers
    though their leader is disavowing that). Whether any of the other major
    Western powers get involved is the big question mark...I think that if the
    US singlehanded goes in there, there will be diplomatic repercussions...the
    Arabs, even the ones that are afraid of Hussein, don't like Americans to
    interfere.
    If something does happen, unless something changes from now, I suspect that
    it will be a short-lived affair. The Soviets are not sending any more
    weapons and I don't think Iraq has the ability to make enough of its own to
    keep a war going against major world powers. If they continue to be cut off,
    they will not be able to sell oil or bring in supplies. However, I bet it
    will be an extremely nasty short-lived incident...

    Message: 68407
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: transpo
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 13:56:05

    Unfortunately, the modern world is built on transportation. We need those
    planes, cars, etc., and until someone comes up with something other than gas
    to power them, we have to continue to have interest in the major
    oil-producing regions such as the middle east.
    200 years ago...even 100 years ago...it was perfectly common for people to
    never wander more than five or ten miles away from where they were born.
    However, nowadays, most of us probably commute farther than that just one
    way to work. A few lucky people live and work close enough that they could
    walk or ride a bicycle(I used to bicycle 20 miles a day and though I could
    get where I was going, it was very much a less desirable option than having
    a car...just try riding a bike on a stormy rainy day ten miles carrying
    packages and see how enthusiastic you are...also, it is impossible to get
    where you're going in a well-groomed, non-sweaty state). I suppose we could
    go back to the horse and buggy days, but there were problems there,
    too...horse waste, dead animals...
    Mass transit is nearly a religion among some people, but many don't see that
    it will not work in areas like Phoenix(and other large, sprawled cities)
    like it does back in New York and New Jersey. How many people live in New
    Jersey? Millions? Well, New Jersey is smaller than Maricopa County. Of
    course you've got the population density to make mass transit work there.
    But here in Phoenix, you've got people in Peoria working in Mesa and so
    forth...for them to take a bus, it will probably require walking miles in a
    day to get to bus stops, several transfers, and twice as long to get there
    as it does in a private car. Phoenix is unlikely to build the dense numbers
    of people that the east coast has...people move to Phoenix so that they
    won't have that population density. So instead of growing upwards in big
    apartments and stuff like that, Phoenix will keep expanding out into the
    desert, continually making mass transit a hopeless option unless you live
    and work on a major route..even then it's highly inconvenient.(for example,
    my family lives on a major bus route and my mom works about five miles away
    on a connecting busy street. If she wanted to take the bus, first she has to
    walk half a mile to the bus stop and then it will take about an hour to get
    there...she could almost literally walk that sizable distance faster than a
    bus will get there).
    Anyway, our scientists should be spending time developing alternate fuel
    sources and so forth, not trying to get everyone to get rid of private cars
    and get on buses. (By the way, pollution, as much as everyone talks about
    it, is not as bad as they say, at least here in Phoenix. When I interviewed
    for a news story on emissions, I saw the graphs...the air quality today is
    vastly better than it was in 1970 with half the population...as for the
    brown cloud, A)this is a desert, we have stuff here called dust and B) there
    has always been a similar brown cloud according to some old timers I've
    spoken to...back in the '20's they figured shutting down the mines would get
    rid of it...)

    Message: 68409
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: War!
    Subject: Mideast
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 15:07:50

    Think about this for a second:
    No gas, no cars, no cars, no mechanics,no car dealers, no automobile
    industry. Just imagine the millions of people layed off or out of work in
    this counrty alone, if the oil stops flowing. What happens if we don't
    intervene? Sadam would overrun the rest of the mideast, and eventually
    control all the oil. He would set his own price, and nobody could do
    something about it. Think for one minute what would happen in this country
    alone if the cars, and just the cars stopped? Chaos, thats what would
    happen. Does anyone really think he (sadamm) would sell the US oil at all if
    he took over the mideast? The world has condemned him, we were just asked
    for help first by the saudi's, and why shouldn't we help them, they were go
    to us for years, when nobody in the arab world liked us. If a friend asks me
    for help, I'm going to give it to him, not go back on promises made,, and
    the USA did promise the saudi's, and they did ask for help.
    If we or other nations that were asked for help would not respond, what is
    to prevent him from becomming an other Hitler? Nothing, because we wouldn't
    help prevent it. After the horrible lessons learned from the second world
    war, and on how Hitler took over, this is all just to simular for comfort.
    If we would have intervend in 1935 or about that time, Hitler might have
    been stopped earlier, now we have the chance to stop a madman at the
    beginning, not after he has established himself in such a powerful position
    that we couldn't do anything about it. Our military is quite competent,
    believe me, I know! They are good men, they exist for a purpose, let them do
    what the were trained for.    The Mad Max

    Message: 68410
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul/Jordan
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 17:20:59

    I have grave doubts regarding the integrity or intelligence of CBS news in
    conducting a news special from Jordan, and in representing the interviews of
    the arabs therein as representative of the arabs in general. Jordan was
    about the only arab state, you'll recall, that did not formally condemn Iraq
    for its actions.

    Message: 68411
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: war
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 17:26:22

    Why is everyone drawing comparisons to Vietnam in their warnings against US
    military involvement.  Vietnam was fought in jungles; the terrain in Kuwait
    and Iraq is a desert.  The viet cong were largely a guerilla force; Iraqi
    troops are largely a conventional force.  The VC had widespread support from
    interior elements; the Kuwaitis are hardly likely to give such support to
    Iraq.

    Message: 68412
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 17:33:12

    The air pollution here was reduced for the first time in years, just
    recently, probably largely due to the mandatory use of oxygenated fuels.

    Less than two years ago, there was a good deal of publicity regarding the
    fact that Phoenix had the worst levels of carbon monoxide in the nation.
    That may have be proportionally, and not absolutely, but the fact remains
    that Phoenix has a major pollution problem of crisis proportions.
    Ever look in the direction of downtown Phoenix when travelling along the
    Squaw Peak Parkway or from Tempe?

    Message: 68413
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Computing
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 20:29:20

            Hey, it works!  It works! Thanks to Mad Max and Jeff B.--thanks to
    Jeff and Jeff, I figured out how to use the capture part of telix, put it
    into a disk, then load that into a word processer, and read at liesure!
            Sonuvagun! What a deal! Only trouble is, I hit the worng keys at the
    wrong time, a few times, and so I didn't get all that I wanted to get. Also,
    my Super Jim Dandy Keen Neat-o Radio Shack Tandy does not perform, I
    suspect, at optimum expected results.
            But all in all, I'm like a kid with a new toy. Thanks again, to both
    of you.     --John C.--

    Message: 68414
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: War!
    Subject: Saddam/Hitler
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 20:38:14

            Mad Max, you're right again! Saddam Hussein scares me. (If I were
    Rod, I could say, "scares the Hell out of me"). He is almost the
    reincarnation of Adolph, and what he is doing sounds eerily like a replay of
    1935 to 1939.
            If we decide that this is an Arab problem, let them handle it, it'll
    be similar to the decision that that was a German problem, or a Czech
    problem, or Polish, and let's not let American boys be put in danger.
            If we had acted early, probably we would not have had to drop the
    101st Airborne on Normandy (and hundreds of thousands of others in other
    places) and the total loss would have been less.
            One thing bothers me: our best men are Rangers, Seals, Special
    Forces, Delta types.  The incompetents got promoted to field rank and
    general rank. Those incompetents will be in charge of committing the good
    men to the field. God be with them!

    Message: 68415
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: All/Hell
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 20:43:33

            I'm amazed and a bit amused that we all seem to applaud and rever
    the fine points of love, compassion, kindnesss, mercy, etc.:These are the
    "Christian" virtues, historically.  Those of us believers believe that
    Christ died to bring us closer to those virtues. On the other hand, in the
    atheist camp, we find Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, etc., and a complete lack of
    organized encouragement of the virtues. Oh, there are a few nice atheists; I
    believe I could drink beer and tell stories and anjoy Rod and Jeff for
    hours. But for a real moral code, don't we have to go to an oerganized
    religion?    --John C.--

    Message: 68416
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: help
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 22:13:57

    Your welcome, let me know if you need more help. Always glad to help an
    other Apollo BBS'er.
           THE
    M M A D   M M A X
      M M A D   M M A X
        M M A D   M M A X

    Message: 68417
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: War!
    Subject: Saddam
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 22:27:20

    Let me all tell you, from first hand experience, the 82nd AIRBORNE Div. are
    the most capable unit we have, if they can't do it, it can't be done.
    I am shure a lot, propably most of my old comrades in arms left for Saudi
    Arabia today and yesterday. If, in my judgement, a lot of the people I
    personaly know at Ft Bragg went down there, they know what to expect.
    The 2 1/2 years I spent at Ft Bragg, we spent months training in the mohave
    desert, and I mean months. The 82nd IS ready, if their not nobody is.
    Delta Force by the way is annexed to the 82nd, but they fall directly under
    CIA supervision in such a situation. Let me just say, and I don't say this
    often, MAY GOD BE WITH MY FRIENDS AND MY MOST OF THE COME BACK ALIVE.
                           RANGER
                      MESS WITH THE BEST
                      AND DIE LIKE THE REST
                            18th
                      AIRBORNE CORPS
                            82nd
                      AIRBORNE DIV.
                            2nd
                          RANGER
                        AIRBORNE ALL
                            THE
                            WAY
                            THE
                    M M A D  M M A X

    Message: 68418
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 22:58:11

    And the numbers will tell you, there is less pollution now than there was 20
    years ago...I saw the numbers when I did various stories on emissions...I
    even spoke to the guy in charge of the oxygenated fuels program at length
    and the overall improvement was minimal because oxygenated fuels only
    significantly reduce emissions from older vehicles and take a look on the
    streets, there really aren't very many older vehicles. Well, actually, they
    found that oxygenated fuels lowered emissions by 20 to 50% in all vehicles,
    but considering that, say, a 1989 car might put out 3 gms while a 1970 car
    might do 130 gms, that's not much an actual difference in the majority of
    vehicles on the road.

    Message: 68419
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Melissa/lust
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:12:58

    Is Sue Widemark brain dead then?

    Message: 68420
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Several people
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:13:51

    Jim Lippard
    Ron Harvey
    Dean Hathaway

    Have any of you got a Match?

    Message: 68421
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: lust
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:15:05

    When a couple pay their money and get a peice of paper then lust inside of
    marriage is not considered lust, just normal sex.

    Message: 68422
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob T./stuck in gear
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:17:11

    Yes Bob, but I thought you of all people knew that I am:

            A REBEL WITH A CAUSE.

    Lifelong, no doubt.  I'm like a universal garbage man.

    Message: 68423
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/Moral Code
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:31:17

    Yes, I am an atheist and I do not belong to any atheist organizations, yet I
    have a very high set of morals.  They are based on the fact that each of us
    are related and are sailing around on this tiny dirt ball.  Perhaps Carl
    Sagan said something similar.

    To change the subject a wee bit, just imagine taking a trip to the 'holy
    land' where it is claimed that Jesus roamed during his time.

    I would suspect that those Moslems and Islams take heart in selling the
    tourists a wooden cross or some other souvenir.  Trying to find another
    Christian over there would be kind of difficult according to the figures.

    But isn't it strange that America has embraced a Middle Eastern religion but
    many Americans condemn the Middle East especially their religions?

    And here our religions send people from here to there in order to convert
    them to a religion that was founded on their shores.

    Life is strange.

                                    Rod

    Message: 68424
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C.
    Date: 08/08/90  Time: 23:32:37

    Want to grap a beer sometime?  Although I would be drinking Pepsi or
    lemonaide as alcohol and I don't like each other.