### Apollo BBS Archive - July 19, 1987

    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* $tatus Club Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 1567
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit-Chat
    Subject: Eddings
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:51:37

    I dislike "epic fantasy," but I too would place Edding's books among the
    best I've read.
    *=* Journey to a SIG *=*

    *=* Bulletin Board entered *=*

    Message: 45200
    Author: $ Alan Hamilton
    Category: Question?
    Subject: The Boss
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 05:22:11

      Okay, then, let's talk about you, Cliff......

         /
     /  *  /  Alan
    *     *

    Message: 45201
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Rod/Circle K
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 06:55:18

    Rod, What do you think about what Circle K management did about the mam with
    the void second place ticket? You seem quick to critize (sp) but slow to
    praise.

                                           <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 45202
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Religion
    Subject: The Big Why Question
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 07:03:24

    I'm all the time hearing (seeing) people saying if God was so and so, why
    does he allow so and so to happen. Some of you think God should have made a
    world with no troubles. He should have created a world were everyone was
    happy all the time.
    This would be impossible.
    For with out sorrow there would be no joy.
    I will leave you with that simple thought. Think about it.

                                     <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 45203
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Evolution
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:15:09

    I won't bother posting silly poems - rather, I'd like to suggest the reading
    of a recent release here in America by Dr. Michael Denton called "Evolution
     A Theory in Crisis."  It is a hardback from Adler and Adler.  He
    is not a creationist per se; he is a molecular biologist.  It is heavy
    reading (I've just begun) and at times will require a solid foundation in
    organic chemistry and genetics.  He deals with the real issues, not silly
    poems.  For those of you truly interested in the subject on a level other
    than the most basic, and who want a scholarly discussion of the subject, it
    would be worth the $19.95 or so.
       Have a nice Lord's day!

    James>>>

    Message: 45204
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: God
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:31:51

    I shook my head.  "Ok, Iknow you exist because I've seen you put away a
    mountain of fries." I pointed to his empty plate.  "I realize that
    rhetorical questions  like, "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?"
    are logic traps, and that logic does not really apply because belief in God
    is a matter of faith.  But I've got one question that I hope you can
    answer."
            "What is it?" God asked.
            "If man has free will, how can you know everything?"
            God smile easily.  "I understand everything and know it much in the
    same way you can know and understand the total layout of a maze your going
    to shove a rat into for testing.  You know the whole maze, but you can't
    predict exactly what the rat will do.  Granted, reality is a much bigger
    things, but the principle is the same."
            I nodded.  "OK, I guess I can handle that.  I think you'd agree the
    world is a mess.  Why doesn't Jesus come back as promised?"
            God laughed.  "What, you think he's MacArthur?"  He leaned forward.
    "Man has not changed that much in the last 2000 years, really, right?"
            I nodded.  "Sure."
            God smiled.  "Would you be in any hurry to return to a world that
    gave you the sort of send-off he got last time?"

    Message: 45205
    Author: Billi Idyll
    Category: My Dinner with...
    Subject: Stephen J. Gould
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:42:33

            "Dr. Gould, I'm so glad you could come to lunch."
            The Harvard paleobiologist and expert in evolution sat down
    carefully and looked around cautiously.  He jerked a thumb at some of the
    patrons behind us.  "Is that Satan talking to an Atheist over there?"
            I nodded, then pointed to God and Tom Leykis negotiating God's
    appearance on Tom's show.  "And that's God talking with an Atheist over
    there."  Gould and I watched Satan pass Rod an envelope.  "And it looks like
    Satan pays better.
            Gould cleared his voice, scanned the menu, paled and spoke.  "You
    said you had a question for me?"
            "Yes.  Is evolution a theory?"
            Gould laughed.  "As I said in an article in DISCOVER magazine last
    year, EVOLUTION IS NOT A THEORY.  We know evolution happened.  We can see it
    in the fossil record, and in living creatures that have grown apart.  We can
    even see it in the embryo development of animals, including humans."
            "Then what's the problem?" I asked.
            Gould grew serious.  "The theory in question is not evolution, it is
    'survival of the fittest.'  My theory of punctuated equilibrium is only one
    of several new theories battling to replace survival of the fittest, yet all
    we argue, really, is refinements of theories to try and reflect the evidence
    we have.  Evolution is fact, the mechanism is theory."
            I nodded.  "What about creationists who say you'll go to hell for
    your beliefs?"
            "If I have to join them," Gould said, "I'd be in hell."

    Message: 45206
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: For sale
    Subject: SX-64
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 10:29:30

            We have a used Commodore SX-64 portable computer, and included in
    the deal is a Commodore 803 printer and a BMC mono monitor.  (the SX-64 has
    a built in color monitor also)
            All the above items for only $325.00

    SYSOP ClifFORD of GEMINI Computer Inc.

    Message: 45207
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Joe Bottomlee
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:12:20

    That is a bogus argument.  It's like hitting yourself over the head with a
    hammer because it feels so good when you stop.  There is absolutely no
    logical contradiction in an omnipotent being creating a world in which
    everyone was happy all the time--in fact, isn't that what heaven is supposed
    to be like?  The claim that good cannot exist without evil is tantamount to
    saying that nothing can exist unless its opposite also exists.  What is the
    contradiction in imagining a universe without light?  Or a universe full of
    stars, which would be fully lit?  Or a universe in which everything is
    painted blue?

    Message: 45208
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim White
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:18:41

    I think it should be pointed out that F.F. Bruce's work is ultraconservative
    biblical scholarship.  I believe the mainstream is far closer to the views
    presented in my pamphlet than to yours (with the exception of Wells' thesis
    that Jesus never existed).
       As for the Qumran "fragment seemingly from the gospel of Mark",
    O'Callaghan's idnetification is of a 17-letter fragment, which matches up
    with Mark after dropping "three short words".  His identification of a
    five-letter fragment and a seven-letter fragment are even more questionable.
     Here's what one person has said about the biggest fragment: "17 letters!
    Not even one complete word in the biggest piece, a pinhead of evidence on
    which to balance an inverted pyramid of speculation.  God sure is stingy
    with his evidence!"
       Also, even if the fragment IS of Mark, that does NOT rule out a late
    dating.  There are two arguments given for an early date:  1.
    Archaeologists say cave 7 was sealed in 70 C.E. 2. The fragments are written
    in the "Zierstil" style of writing which allegedly was only used up to
    around 50 C.E.  Both of these arguments are very weak.  1. NT material in
    the cave is evidence *against* that cave being part of the Essen monastery,
    which is dated as being not later than 68 C.E. due to coins unearthed.  If
    these fragments are in an unrelated cave, there is no basis for linking the
    dates.  2. Zierstil style writings have been found in Pompeii which were
    buried by Vesuvius in 79 C.E.  These Qumran fragments could just as easily
    have been produced that late.

    Message: 45209
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim White/dating
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:21:39

    Presuppositions in dating:  John A.T. Robinson's technique is faulty.  For
    example, he says that Acts doesn't mention Nero's persecution, therefore it
    must have been written in 62 C.E.  Here's a quote from a friend: "I have
    here a history of the Roman Republic.  It doesn't mention Nero either.  It
    leaves off with a brief mention of Augustus and no later emperors.  So was
    this book written in 62 A.D.?  Says here it was written in 1980.  In general
    you can date books by what they _do_ mention, but _not_ by what they leave
    out.  If a book mentions some Great Fire of 1726, it must have been written
    after 1726.  If it doesn't mention the Fire, that _doesn't_ mean it must
    have been written _before_ 1726.  The author may have chosen not to include
    the Fire in his book for any number of reasons."

    Message: 45210
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim White/kinds
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:25:13

    The term "kind" doesn't seem to have any consistent meaning AT ALL.  The
    creationists use of it shifts with the wind.  If "a dog is a dog" and all
    dogs split off from one "dog kind" after the flood, then you are a pretty
    radical evolutonist.  Chihuahuas and Great Danes are pretty dramatically
    different.  Did all 300,000+ species of beetle come from a single "beetle
    kind"?  That's incredibly rapid speciation--more rapid than Gould and
    Eldredge's punctuated equilibria!  Also, creationists wouldn't hesitate to
    put gibbons and siamangs in the same "ape kind", since they are quite
    closely related genetically.  But human beings and chimpanzees are even
    closer to each other than those two species--so why aren't they in the same
    "kind"?
       There are also snake-like lizards and lizard-like snakes... is theree one
    big "snake & lizard" kind, or are they separate kinds?  Either way leads the
    creationists into inconsistency.

    Message: 45211
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Joe/Circle K
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:24:36

    If I am reading you correctly, I personally thought that (K) should own up
    to their obligations and pay the man $20,000.  I wrote them a letter as I am
    sure a lot of others did.  I criticized them for not having Pepsi in  their
    soft-drink fountain selection too.
    I guess you heard by now that they paid the man his money.
    Why, how do you think it should have been handled, just ignore him since he
    didn't read or write english?
                                    Rod
    P.S.  I believe the man used a US Currency Note to make his purchase.

    Message: 45212
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Joe/Heaven
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:32:02

    Yea Joe, according to you heaven will be your reward, eternal bliss but how
    will you enjoy being there for all that while when after many eons you will
    have soon forgotton your hardships on earth?
      Perhaps god will arrange a tragedy from time to time just so you will
    be able to renew your enjoyment.
                                            Rod

    Message: 45213
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rat in a maze
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:48:01

    Do you mean that god wouldn't know which way the rat would go because it has

    'FREE WILL'?  If there is truly such a person as a god then that entity
    would know all of the capabilities of the rat or human, know its EXACT
    thoughts and could logically determine whether it was a good creation or a
    mistake.  God would know whether a particular human was a psychopath or a
    mellow critter.
    If a creation proved to be psyco then would god only allow it to harm others
    who 'deserved' punishment or would this menace be allowed to harm who ever
    it pleased?
      There are too many 'unanswerables' with this theory.  Christians give
    their god a lot of credit but pull back on some important things.
    God is responsible for ALL evil as well as ALL good and since this world is
    primilarily evil, I'd say that god was too.
      God then creates humans that he knows will be evil (just from the previous
    tract record).  God creates many humans and logically he should be able to
    deduce that a certain percentage of them WILL be eternally punished.
      SOME GOD, eh?  Although at the moment of creation any god worth its salt
    should know whether it will be a good creation or a bad one.
      I can only conclude that Christians have a fairly ignorant god.
      But that's life, eh!
                                    Rod
    Message: 45214
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:40:27

    ...
      Who ever sees dead birds, in anything like the huge
    numbers stipulated by the certainty of the death of all
    birds?  A dead bird is an incongruity, more startling than
    an unexpected live bird, sure evidence to the human mind
    that something has gone wrong.  Birds do their dying off
    somewhere, behind things, under things, never on the wing.
      Animals seem to have an instinct for performing death
    alone, hidden.  Even the largest, most conspicuous ones find
    ways to conceal themselves in time.  If an elephant missteps
    and dies in an open place, the herd will not leave him
    there; the others will pick up and carry the body from place
    to place, finally putting it down in some inexplicably
    suitable location.  When elehants encounter the skeleton of
    an elephant out in the open, they methodically take up each
    of the bones and distribute them, in a ponderous ceremony,
    over neighboring acres.
    ...
      In our way, we conform as best we can to the rest of
    nature.  The obituary pages tell us of the news that we are
    dying away, while the birth announcements in finer print,
    off at the side of the page, inform us of our replacements,
    but we get no grasp from this of the enormity of scale.
    There are 3 billion of us on the earth, and all 3 billion

    Message: 45215
    Author: $ David Burkhart
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Joe/Circle K
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:50:04

    I don't think Circle K is really deserving of praise.  They gave in only
    after public pressure, and the man had to get a lawyer (which he'll now have
    to pay.)  They blew it, and their attempts to fix it aren't really something
    that Circle K should be praised for.

    Message: 45216
    Author: $ Apro Poet
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Life
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 15:01:49

    must be dead, on a schedule, within this lifetime.  The vast
    mortality, involving something over 5 million of us each
    year, takes place in relative secrecy.  We can only really
    know of the deaths in our households, or among our friends.
    These, detached in our minds from all the rest, we take to
    be unnatural events, anomalies, outrages.  We speak of our
    own death in low voices; struck down, we say, as though
    visible death can only occur for cause, by disease or
    violence, avoidably.  We send off for flowers, grieve, make
    ceremonies, scatter bones, unaware of the rest of the 3
    billion on the same schedule.  All of that immense mass of
    flesh and bone and consciousness will disappear by
    absorption into the earth, without recognition by the
    transient survivors.

    Message: 45217
    Author: $ Traci Sibel
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Circle K
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 16:14:30

    I thought they paid when the executive chairman came back from England and
    Found out about the whole mess. Did the guy have to get a lawyer?

    Message: 45218
    Author: $ John Henry
    Category: Question?
    Subject: James White
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 16:51:11

    Please define "kind."

    Swing 'Dat Hamma
     -John Henry

    Message: 45219
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 20:43:20

    Sorry about wanting to send them to the Christian Sig. After you bought it
    to my attention, I saw where it couldn't be. It just seemed like a bad
    religious war was in the air (and world war 3 has started) and best in the
    sig. of that name.
    Boy - did I get a chuckle when I read the posts - here was all this
    religious discussions and right in the middle of James and Jim - here you
    were with your "for sale" - Com. sx 64 advertizement. Hahahaha --- ANN

    Message: 45220
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Joe Bottomlee
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 20:47:54

    But you forget - the Bible says God did create the world without sorrow!! I
    don't believe God brings us sorrow - I think we bring our own - I especially
    do not believe in original sin either. --- ANN

    Message: 45221
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Rod on God
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 21:30:14

    "God creates many humans and logically he should be able to deduce that a
    certain percentage of them WILL be eternally punished. SOME GOD eh?"

    Excuse me, God created Adam and Eve (which you deny), we propogated the
    rest.
    So, Rod, Father of many...how many kids did you bring into the world to
    eternally damn then? EH? Some Father you are.

    Get a little sense, Rod. You, ONLY You are responsible for what you do.
    Certain percentage eh? JUST what IS this certain percentage? DO you include
    or exclude yourself?
    Freedom has a price....and you're the salesman!

    You govern what price freedom is for yourself. Wether that be cussing at
    your own father and blaming HIM for your deeds or thanking him for what
    you have and keeping a close relationship.
    I can clearly envision a room with 200 "Rod" clones. WHen asked who was
    to blame for the latest transgression, they'd form a large circle with
    fingers pointed to the next guy on the left. A real CIRCUS.

                             Glad you aren't a Lawyer...sheesh

                                                      -Mike

    Message: 45222
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last
    Date: 07/19/87  Time: 22:33:25

    So, Mr. Carter, are you going to have your balls cut off and try to convince
    all of your friends to do likewise? If not, what justification can you
    possibly have for procreation at some time in your life?

    Rev. Beau

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