### Apollo BBS Archive - September 20 - 21, 1989

    Message: 61107
    Author: Pinocchio Poupee Note: This is me. (Poupee,french for puppet.)
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 00:29:24

    In your post number 61083, you say that men are not puppets because
    they have free will. The great puppet master himself, God, made many
    rules. If you do not follow the rules then eternal misery is promised
    to you. I would say that God is pulling the strings here.

    Not puppets, indeed!

    My Grandmother gets up every Sunday morning, just like a puppet, in
    order to go to church.  Most ministers make it clear that not serving
    or believing in the Lord will cause one to flunk out of Heavenly
    Reward. But their excuse is that they get their information from
    God.

    Your free will is dictated to you.  By the way, judge me not.

    Message: 61108
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Edwards
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 00:57:08

    Darwin obviously was a poor scientist. He attributes human feelings
    toward the objects of his study. Most of what you have supposedly
    quoted there are unmistakably opinions based on opinions.
    "..by the clumsy,wasteful,blundering,low, and cruel works of nature:"
    Such mass hysteria by someone you hold as factual leaves me with doubts
    on those who puport and support his inane claims. Ending the quote with
    "such facts" is a lie. Those aren't facts. Such mindless boondoggling
    is often the only way most Anti-religious can approach the question.
    Instead of blindly accepting a torrid and sensless breeze of confused
    opinion, you should seek what is known and search these so called "facts"
    for genuine truth.
    Again, you ignore the simplest, most understandable concept to hell.
    You choose by your own liking wether or not to accept God. He loves you
    either way; wherever you extract "conditional" is beyond me. Perhaps
    it's your attempt to wash over what you wish not to accept.
    Since you're human like the rest of us, it's hard to think that God could
    love everybody. As a human, I certainly can't. So *YOU* may be a puppet
    by your own weird opinion..but I'm far from being anyone's puppet..much
    less Gods. The style of writing from the last message reminds me of someone
    here who had $tatus at one time. Too bad these non-status log-ins are too
    busy involving themselves with being anonymous..I might take the posts
    and respond if they weren't.
    It always amazes me how rattled some folks get with discussions on
    religion..if you don't believe..why should it bother you? Hmmmmm

    Message: 61109
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Edwards again
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 01:09:00

    Whoa! You're placing human limits on an omni-potent being. You've claimed
    by false summary that because God "can do" he does. Nope. God, being
    what he / she / whatever is can be capable by default, but not do.
    From your summary, you theorize that because God is capable and knowledgable
    of Evil..he therefore is not perfect etc etc . Excuse me, but I think
    you're overshooting here. You're assuming a lot and forgetting a whole
    lot more. Let's take an example:
    You know that you should NOT kill someone. Yet you have in your hands
    the power to do so. To do so would be wrong, morally evil and quite
    in "error".
    Yet you do not kill.
    Yet, because you didn't , you're still guilty. Precisely what you assert.
    Finally;
    God could NOT be omnipotent without ultimate power and knowledge and
    capability. Hence I'm sure the capability is there...but that capability
    can not be used since it would require God to go against himself.

    As for the rest of those two messages...my responses have smashed what
    little grounds they were based on and the residual is a spaghetti
    of spin-offs of incorrect assumptions and false logic.

    As far as mans free will "as I define it"..taking it on your absolutionists
    point of view you're correct. I cannot sprout wings and fly away.
    I cannot transform myself into a wallaby and jump into Jonny Carsons lap.
    "There are many things men cannot decide"; Name one.
    "There are many decisions that cannot be changed, once acted upon."
    -The decision CAN be changed, the result may not be as easy to. Making
    generalizations is a fault of both of us.
    "Quite often men cannot even sustain themselves.." - Give me an example
    of a man who is incapable of making choices. Certainly there are
    quadraplegics and those in comas. You're generalizing again. Free will
    can be TAKEN away. Either by physical or mental means. This does not in any
    way refute its existance. False logic. Breast beating.
    Rocks, DNA, etc don't have souls. Rocks are not living things. Inanimate.
    I'm wondering it's purpose in your post.
    "But no benevolent, wise creator would allow conditions to cause
    suffering.."
    Your ideal of wisdom falls quite short of Gods. Your ideals of benevolence
    falls again, shorter than your wisdom ideals. I suppose it would be great
    living in a world with no sensory perceptions whatsoever, no climate,
    no change, no difference. Why, we'd be stasis veggies! Geez, what a
    wonderful way to introduce Gods children into heaven. Deprive them of
    reality! Yeah..hey, that's Rods ideal!
    Without experiencing what is bad, one cannot determine good. Without a goal
    (searching for good) one cannot achieve. You want life, delivered by
    your idealistic God to be one happy family without pain, suffering or
    whatever. That's what I call the silver platter approach.
    Yeah, I'd be first in line too.
    But I'm glad that God created the Heavens, the Earth and the wonderful
    myriad of diversity within. I can experience, feel, touch, live and
    remember all things good and bad. No one likes pain, suffering, agony
    and frustration. They're sick if they do. I'm sure that God doesn't like
    to see his creation go through it either.
    BUt where do you draw a line? Do you eliminate pain, suffering and all those
    things we fear and loathe for the sake of sparing us the details?
    Read back to the "Stasis Veggies"...in drawing the line...
    To assert the false logic that because God allowed these conditions, he
    cannot be perfect or loving is foolish and ignorant and the voice of
    someone who doesn't want anyone to think God loves him or anyone else.
    Childish prattle. God is there to offer a helping hand..in a major way.
    Only we as humans refuse (even as Christians too) and take the burdens upon
    ourselves and fail miserably. I would feel terrible if I offered a hand
    to someone drowning and they refused my help. God undoubtably feels the
    same way. But you see, man is too busy making up excuses why he doesn't
    exist or why there's no help or future.
    Call him what you wish..think of him in any manner. Either way he created
    you and loves you even if you don't love him. He's there to help
    all you need to do is accept it...because, as a *non* puppet, he can't
    force it on you.                -Mike

    Message: 61112
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: BOSTON ?
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 01:36:49

    Good Lord..

    I'll be in Boston myself comming in the first week of November for
    a Digital Equipment training course.

    Let's all three get together and have coffee.

    Message: 61113
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: "Scranton NJ"
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 01:53:24

    Geez. All that bludgeoning and gangrenous limb festering with the
    sodomizing and bubble gum snatching has made me hungry.
    Hungry for someone who is capable of rational thought. Instead of
    creating circumstances and blaming them on God..take a hold of
    reality and stop reading so many comic books.
    Is the bubble gum crime some childhood Freudian slip?

    Here's a sarcastic reply:

    "I stubbed my toe as I got out of my leaking waterbed late for work for
    the third time in a row today. The dog ate my lunchbox and its contents
    and the cab driver laughed at my car sitting in the driveway with two flat
    tires. He tore off without giving me my change from $20 from the $15 fare
    and I ripped my shirt open while trying to make the elevator on the way up."

    GEE IT MUST BE OMAR SHARRIF'S FAULT-- HE FORCASTED A BAD DAY AHEAD IN THE
    ASTROLOGICAL FORCAST. DAMN HIM AND ALL WHO FOLLOW HIS ADVICE. IT'S ALL HIS
    FAULT> WHAT A NICE GUY.

    Message: 61114
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 02:41:57

      Well, the first part was Hebrew.  The last part was Greek.  (In both
    cases, please pardon the transliteration.)  And both lanugages are, as you
    pointed out, almost foreign.

              =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

    Message: 61115
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Ann
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 05:39:48

     Once again, you read only that which you want to hear and ignore the real
    context of my posts.
     I have said repeatedly that the devil cannot do anything to a Christian
    that the Christian will not allow him to do. I am well aware of all those
    people who blame the devil for everything that happens to them. I am also
    aware that these people are those who, Christian or not, refuse to accept
    the responsibility for their own actions. Principles are still principles,
    and they always apply without exception to Christians, atheists, or whoever,
    since GOd is no respecter of persons. One of those principles is that for
    every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Just as that applies
    in chemistry, it applies in life. Only when people realize that THEY,not the
    devil or any other mysterious force, are the real source of their own
    problems will they ever be able to come to terms with those problems aand
    overcome them.
     I call God "my God" because I happen to have a personal relationship with
    Him, the same personal relationship that every Christian has through Christ.
    It is that loving relationship by which we can call Him Abba Father. The
    fact that I refer to Him as my God does not in any way exclude Him from
    being your or anyone else's God as well.
     And again, and again and again, I have NEVER, EVER, set myself up as an
    example of everything that is good about Christianity. I have NEVER said, to
    you or anyone, "look at me, Mr. Perfect Christian". NEVER! On the contrary,
    I have pointed hundreds of times to Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of
    our faith, and said, to you and others, look to HIM. NONE OTHER! God bless.

    Message: 61116
    Author: $ Jeannie Innajug
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Job in Boston
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 07:16:34

    Geeze..........................Youse guys................

    You think you've got troubles?  Yesterday my new boss called to tell me not
    to relocate yet.  They've made some sort of corporate decision to relocate
    in Hartford or Philadelphia or who knows where, and I'm supposed to sit home
    and cool my heels for a couple of weeks while they make up their minds!  I
    told him I didn't care where at this point, just keep sending the paychecks.
     I'm not sure whether he took that seriously or thought I was joking.  All I
    got was a humorless chuckle.  So looks like you will all have to suffer with
    me for a couple of weeks more.  Yuck!!!!!!

    See Y'aa..............
    Jeannie

    Message: 61117
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Vote
    Subject: E vote
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 07:33:19

    So, I was another "E" vote.  I didn't see a choice I liked there, either!

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 61118
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeannie
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 08:13:03

    I'm glad your gonna be here a few more weeks. Sounds like you lead an
    interesting life and lucky you, you may get to have tea with JT in Boston!
                                -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61119
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 08:15:22

    OK that's better. Regardless of what you may think, I have enjoyed and will
    continue to enjoy our religious discussions. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61120
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 08:16:22

    You ought to be a teacher, minister or writer. Good, interesting posts!
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61121
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike Carter...
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 11:10:07

            Give him Hell Mike!!!!!
            Boston you say....   Hey, when there, give my Dad a call....
    His Name is John Kolostow and is in the Boston Phone book...   You will also
    see two half brothers of mine listed...  say hi from Arizona and Cliff and
    wife Sandy  ( I don't think he knows yet )   Do it, don't be a weenie!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61122
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 1of27
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 12:41:04

      Just kidding! I am going away for a couple of weeks starting Sunday. That
    should let some of you get over my recent long message attack.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 61123
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last...
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 13:15:34

            Good one Dean.... ha ha ha ha
                            Errrr, where you going boy?

    P.S.  Are you going to register Sandy or not?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61124
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff / Boston
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 17:22:13

    O.k. I'll also be going into Groton / Newlondon if I can find a decent
    car rental there. I'm hoping to have a little time to visit some old
    Navy friends and have some time to visit some other people I know out there.
    (I called them up the other day...boy were they happy to hear from me..
    8 years since we last talked. They couldn't believe I chose the married
    life..after all my Anti-marriage speaches...)
    I'll look up John Kolostow for you..although as his SON you oughtta
    call him once and awhile to let him know how things are going.
    Speaking of weenies.

    Heh heh. I'll call him and tell him you married your computers.

            -Mike

    Message: 61126
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Love
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 17:44:35

    For centuries writer and poets and philosphers have been attempting to
    define what love is and to quantify its palpable existence.
    Fortunately we were all born with the ability to feel and experience
    love. I wonder how much different it would be if we were all born
    Christians, with the ability to feel God within us and know his love.
    Obviously we would not have any doubt of it...since we could feel his
    spirit and joy within us. Interesting how man devotes so much time
    to prove to others of somethings existance / non existance.
    When it goes beyond the boundaries of our sensory capabilities we have
    a hard time accepting proof unless it's of a physical nature.
    Not long ago no one believed in the existance of radio.. the radio waves
    that propogate and can be manipulated into carrying our voices over
    great distances. Radio wave effects could not bee seen, felt , smelt or
    heard. Without the necessary apparatus to measure their effects, as
    far as "man" was concerned..they simply didn't exist. Scientists and
    those who really searched for improvements and worked on finding truth
    didn't have the instruments until they built them. Until someone could
    be shown physical results, skeptiscism prevailed. How could anyone
    justify funding the research?
    Well, we do justify the research. Only a few can do it because it takes
    the ability to search with honesty and biases put aside. Such are those
    who drop their pride and search for God and find him.

    Message: 61127
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Bulletins
    Subject: RIP D. Weis
    Date: 09/20/89  Time: 21:04:29

            Darrell Weis, a member of Apollo, an Atrai ST owner has died of a
    heart attack.  This happened a while back, but I just found out about it.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61128
    Author: Mike Sanderson
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Morals
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 00:04:57

    None other would probably conform to what you see as a high moral standard
    because your moral standard comes from the dictates of your religion.
    Morals to someone of another culture and religion are probably different.

    Message: 61129
    Author: Mike Sanderson
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 00:11:03

    One of Rod's children is a true Christian.

    Message: 61130
    Author: Scott Huffmann
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 01:11:11

    As far as I know, Omar Sharrif hasn't claimed to be an omnipotent,
    omnipresent being, all wise and all benevolent.  You might as well blame Ann
    Landers.

    Besides...why would I blame a non-entity?  (and I'm not talking about Omar)

    Message: 61131
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Morals
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 01:41:21

    Morals aren't something that can be written down and blindly adhered
    to. The proof of this is the fact we have a police force and a high
    crime rate all over the world.
    Morals don't come from punishment. Morals can't be shoved down someone's
    throat. Men will try and continue to do so.
    The only way one gets a sense or morals is by living the mistakes
    and seeing the results to oneself and others around them.
    Morals are not really standards..they're behaviour modification knowledge.
    In today's plastic society, instead of calling a behaviour problem
    a "behaviour problem"...we call them a "disease" or a "syndrome".
    ...and we avoid any breath spoken of what the root of the problem is
    so hospitals are capitalizing on this new breed of social ills and
    sending patients through a "program" to cope..as long as they have the ca$h.

            When someone speaks of the "High moral standards.." I wonder what
    particulars they're referring to. What morals? What are HIGH standards?
    What's the difference between their own morals and the ones they label
    "HIGH" ?
    What makes a moral a "HIGH" one? What is an example of a low one?

    Message: 61132
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Pinocchio Poupee
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 02:24:21

    With a name like that you ought to be judged!

    Message: 61133
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mike S.
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 02:36:35

    Re:  "Morals to someone of another culture and religion are probably
    different."

    You could be right, however, The basic morals are usually the same.
    It is wrong to:
    1 - murder
    2 - steal
    3 - lie
    4 - rape

    Few if any cultures would endorse the above.

    Message: 61134
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Scott H.
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 02:38:01

    Re:  "As far as I know, Omar Sharrif hasn't claimed to be an omnipotent,
    omnipresent being, all wise and all benevolent."

    Are you sure?  He sure had me fooled!

    Message: 61135
    Author: John Ross
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 03:06:39

    This becomes terribly tedious.  Your religion bothers me not because I
    secretly agree with it, but because I despise fatuity, hypocracy, pernicious
    hoaxes, mindless obesance, primitivism, neurosis, psychosis, mindless fear
    and awe, unnatural and deleterious inhibition, the persecution of the
    innocent, theft from the gullible and weak, bullies, obscurantists, liars,
    cheats, swindlers, and pettiness.  Rather than rephrase and repost all my
    arguments, none of which you have answered satisfactorily, I will try to
    reply to any new points I can find.  Nevertheless, this will necessitate
    some redundancy.  I might also note that my anonymity, such that it is,
    seems hardly to have prevented your reponse, as you say it does, if all of
    your posts are any indication.

    "He attributes human feelings to the objects of his study."  This statement
    is foolish, since it assumes that all feelings, even the most elementary
    feelings of fear and pain, are a uniquely human experience.  We may indeed
    experience them differently, but these capacities evolved long before homo
    sapiens -- something you would recognise if you had even the most basic
    knowledge of the physical structures that support them.  Of course,
    observation and ordinary logic would be enough, if you weren't so busy
    trying to rationalise man's cruelty.  It is the ability to do relatively
    complex analysis that most dramatically separates man from lower animals.
    I'm not denying that humans experience many emotions in a more subtle,
    sophisticated manner than animals, but on a primal level, we are much the
    same.

    Darwin's analysis of nature's mechanisms, based not upon religious dogma,
    but upon a lifetime of observation, reasoning, and devotion to rigorous
    scientific methodology, are hardly to be dismissed with a wave of the cross,
    or any other icon.  But you need not be a Darwin, or even terribly
    discerning, to see that this is not the best of all possible worlds.  You
    just need to live with your eyes open.  (Road hog!) Pardon me -- a little
    joke.
    I will say again, how can God's love for man be unconditional when it
    depends on man's love for God?  If he sends all who fail to love him into
    everlasting hell, seperated for all eternity from God and his love, how can
    this be so?
    If a man has the capacity to kill someone (unjustly), but does not, he is
    not guilty of murder.  But he is capable of moral error.  Therefore, he is
    not perfect.  If God is capable of evil, he is capable of error, and thus,
    is imperfect.  One cannot be all-powerful, all-wise, and all-good, if one
    has the capacity for weakness, folly, and turpitude.
    There is quite a difference between no sensory perception, and good sensory
    perception.  Nor does one need to taste cigarette ashes before he can
    experience and appreciate the taste of ambrosia.
    If I offered my hand to someone who was drowning, and they refused my help,
    I might feel bad (for them), but I'm quite certain that I would not push
    their head under the water.

    Again, even within the framework of your dogma, there is no reason for the
    existence of disease and natural disaster, since these inanimate forces have
    no free will to exert.
    I have already pointed out that free-will is the ability to do and choose to
    do some things.  The parameters of free-will vary greatly on an individual
    basis.  An infant generally lacks the judgement and perception to make
    many decisions.  An adult, mentally impaired, has similar restrictions.
    Ever ordinary people cannot decide when they lack comprehension or
    perception, in part or in full.  The point you are so wilfully overlooking,
    is that it is not necessary for evil to exist in order for good to exist; it
    is not necessary to be able to effect evil in order to be able to effect
    good, any more than it is necessary to be able to fly in order to be able to
    swim.  If God is going to impair our free-will in other ways, then
    certainly, it is possible to impair it in this regard.  Again, it is
    certainly possible to prevent the effectuation of an evil choice.
    But this is jejune.  As I have already pointed out, if you can't do
    something right, sometimes it is better not to do it at all: this is
    certainly true when the consequences of your actions may affect others in a
    supremely negative fashion, without their permission.  Any God worth his
    salt could have created a better set of conditions than this, and any being
    incapable of such is not worthy of the title, and should not meddle in the
    act of creation.

    Message: 61138
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sanderson/morals
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 05:35:08

     You make an interesting point, but when one looks at the comparative morals
    of various cultures and religions, it's surprising how similiar they are in
    principle. For the most part, only the names have been changed. While one
    may follow the teachings of Jesus, and declare Him to be Lord, another will
    make the same claim for Buddha, Mohammed or some other leader. The
    standards, however, are basically the same. Love of God (by whatever name),
    love for others, decency, respect, etc.
     To me, that speaks more toward the one God principle than anything else. I
    still think that many of us are in for some surprises when we pass from this
    life to the next. (Better be nice to me. You might have me for a roommate
    forever!)

    Message: 61139
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Joke
    Subject: IRS idiocy
    Date: 09/21/89  Time: 06:46:19

    A couple of days ago when I went out to get the mail, what did I find, but a
    letter from the IRS?! With trembling hands I gingerly opened the envelope
    with wild thoughts passing through my head about audits, jail sentences and
    'what did I do wrong now'? I had to read it a couple of times because it was
    the usual government jargon. The gist - we over paid our taxes by $40!
    They sent the $40 back, but fined us over $60 for sending too much. Now they
    expect a check. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Bulletin Board command ( for help):EA

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    Subject:Mike Carter

    Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
     1:Christians are some of the world's biggest puppets.  That's a fact.
     2:
     3:

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