### Apollo BBS Archive - December 3 - 9, 1989

    Message: 61629
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 17:35:41

    Re:  "State a personal opinion, and get accused of
    "bashing."

    Hey!  That's what Apollo is all about.  State your personal opinion and
    everybody chips in and tells you what is right and wrong with your head.
    I'll probably never hear the end of MLK.  And the guy's dead even!

    Message: 61630
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 17:39:36

    Re:  "(If you doubt me, go to the library and see for yourself.)"

    Not only do I doubt you, but I doubt Shakeman too.  I also doubt if I'll
    bother to go to the library to check it out.  So what do you think of them
    apples?

    Message: 61631
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 17:42:09

    Re:  "The Constitution of the United States and the Bible have nothing in
    common"

    Why do you keep spouting all this kind of stuff?  If you don't want to
    believe, it's ok with me.

    Message: 61632
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 17:54:49

    Re:  "I feel that the legislature made a big mistake in not combining
    Washington/Lincoln birthdays into President's day"

    Actually we should do away with it all.  Im sure there is no one who doesn't
    have some skeletons in their closet.  And we could dig up some dirt to make
    them look bad.  I remember reading in a book somewhere that, "all have
    sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

    Message: 61633
    Author: Mike Carter
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff on VOTE quest
    Date: 12/02/89  Time: 19:09:03

    Here's a question I'd like to see the >> Borland's new killer spreadsheet... QUATTRO-PRO ! <<<:
    :                                                         :
    :  QUATTRO-PRO, Borland's long anticipated update to their:
    :  popular spreadsheet is out... and it just might be the :
    :  best spreadsheet yet!  It combines the best features   :
    :  of 1-2-3 and Excel, and then does more.  Linking files :
    :  is a snap and the spreadsheet publishing capabilities  :
    :  set new standards.  Now for the shocker... Quattro-Pro :
    :  can run on a 512K PC!  Come see what Borland has done. :
    LMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM9
    : ALSO... THE MEMBERSHIP DRIVE GIVEAWAY DRAWING WILL TAKE :
    :     PLACE, WITH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PRIZES!    :
    LMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM9
    :  This presentation should appeal to all users, and will :
    :  NOT contain material that is "technical" in nature.    :
    LMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM9
    :   Bring your PC           7pm - Tuesday, Dec. 12th      :
    :   questions!          Crescent Hotel - Dunlap & Freeway :
    :                 (ask in lobby for info about exact room):

    Message: 61728
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CPI
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 04:52:59

    You guys have convinced me that Caller Party Identification is OK.

    According to a US West employee, there will be no option to not have your
    number sent out.  This is because it *has* to be sent out when you dial 0,
    1, or 911.  CPI is already being used for long distance, where your call is
    being sent through several companies.

    US West will probably charge you to get the service.  So yes, we will have
    to pay if we want to know what number is calling us.  Not to mention the
    cost of new telephones with little digital displays.  Oh boy.

    I'd still *prefer* it the way it is.

    Message: 61729
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul Savage
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 05:02:35

    Paul Savage is about to experience his six-hundred and sixty-sixth logon.
    He's on 664 right now.

    Message: 61730
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Alan/phone
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 05:45:52

     I wonder when that began. I know it wasn't always that way. I will check
    into it, and if it is an appreciable amount, I will have my number listed
    from now on. I had it unlisted to avoid a lot of the telemarketing
    harrassment and invasion of privacy, but now that they all use digital
    dialing, I'm not missing much, so the unlisted # has probably outlived it's
    intended purpose anyway.

    Message: 61731
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Zak/last
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 05:56:15

     I'm not that heavy into numerology, so I don't think that logon 666 will
    have any great cultural or moral shock value.
     Thanks for your obvious concern though. It's nice to have friends who care.

    Message: 61732
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Guns
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 09:39:43

    Did Barney Fife constantly shoot his foot or was that purely accidental?
                       -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61733
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: Backup
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 17:15:36

            I did a complete Hard Drive backup to 3.5 diskettes today.
    This is new... before I had used 5 1/4 floppies and it took twice as many.

            This may make it easier for me as that means less disk swapping and
    the 3.5 disks don't use a jacket.  less handling means less fumbling!

            Todays backup was just a test....  I still plan on doing it the 15th
    and the 1st of each month...  Now, who will remind me?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61734
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Backups
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 17:51:40

    Have Apollo remind you.

    Message: 61735
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 19:29:09

    Re:{ "Let's get a few things straight:"

    I'm glad you're willing to discuss these matters.

    Message: 61736
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Savage
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 20:05:45

    Don't you think Woodruff deserves the "vivid imagination of the day award"?

    Message: 61737
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Woodruff
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 20:07:24

    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" means, obviously enough, that
    guns are morally neutral, and people who use guns (or other means) to kill
    bear the full moral responsibility for their act.  It's amazing that I have
    to explain this to someone with as subtle a mind as yours.

    Message: 61738
    Author: Faith Winn
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: YOUNG ASTRONAUTS
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 21:03:55

    YOUNG ASTRONAUTS HAS BEEN INTRODUCED TO 500,000 YOUNG STUDENTS IN 20,000
    CLASSROOMS. YOUNG ASTRONAUTS IS A SPACE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM THAT ENCOURAGES
    IMPROVMENT OF MATHEMATICS, SCIENCE, AND CREATIVE THINKING. THIS PROGRAM
    WORKS BEST IN THE CLASSROOM, BUT NOT ALL CHAPTERS ARE LINKED TO THE
    CLASSROOM. SOME ARE COMBINED WITH GROUPS SUCH AS CAMP FIRE AND BOY
    SCOUTS.THE YOUNG ASTRONAUTS PROGRAM IS THE PERFECT TEACHING TOOL. IT EXCITES
    THE STUDENTS TO LEARN MORE MATH AND SCIENCE AND IT MAKES THOSE LESSONS FUN.
    HAVING BEEN A YOUNG ASTRONAUT, I KNOW THIS PROGRAM WILL BE HELPFUL TO
    TEACHERS,CLUB LEADERS, AND EVEN PARENTS. IF YOU WISH TO OBTAIN INFORMATIO ON
    YOUNG ASTRONAUTS,PLEASE WRITE TO: YOUNG ASTRONAUT COUNCIL, P.O. BOX
    65432,WASHINGTON,D.C.20036. OR IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, I WOULD BE MORE
    THAN HAPPY TO ANSWER THEM.

    Message: 61739
    Author: $ James Taranto
    Category: Question?
    Subject: FAITH WINN
    Date: 12/06/89  Time: 22:19:40

    CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE LOUDER?  I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

    Message: 61740
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: LAST
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 00:28:39

    EH, WHATYA SAY?

    Message: 61741
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: SLOGAN
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 01:45:12

    "Stupid people aren't stupid, stupid people are."

    Message: 61742
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Taranto61737
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 04:08:49

    I know that!  Why wouldn't I know that?

    Is it me?  It's him, right?

    Message: 61743
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornburg
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 04:16:39

    I sincerely hope that your comment about being glad I'm willing to discuss
    things wasn't SARCASTIC!  Because, Bob, my "let's get things straight"
    comment was just me being cocky.  Ever since I got those awards, I can't
    help myself.

    In any case, I'm willing to discuss the ACLU if you are.  I'd like to know
    what it is about the ACLU that would result in your need to mention them
    negatively every other post.  I also would like to hear some rational
    arguments about the Constitution being based on the Bible, and our founding
    fathers being Bible-thumping Christians.

    But you know that.

    Message: 61745
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: JT on Zak
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 06:24:53

     Perhaps the "vivid imagination of the year" award! I doubt that anyone
    could top his scenarios!

    Message: 61746
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Faith Winn
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 06:26:34

     Please stop shouting! It's too early in the morning for all that noise!
    (In other words, don't you have lower case ability? 'Twould be easier to
    read.)
    Gee, thanks.

    Message: 61747
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Apollo Tips & Tricks
    Subject: [L>ibrary [S>cmd
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 08:18:21

            It amazes me when users look for new files in the [L>ibrary, they
    list ALL 232 [F>iles available for [D>ownloading.  More users should learn
    how to use the [S>earch cmd and let the computer do some of the work for
    you.   A good Tip to look at new files might be to do a [S>earch on current
    year, since I always include the date a file is [U>ploaded.   I use the
    format 'MM/DD/YY' you would ask for '/YY'....

            As in:  Enter [S> and return key.  Then when it askes you for the
    Search string, Enter '/89' to look up files added to the [L>ibrary in 1989.

            You can also [S>earch on any part of the description, computer type,
    or who uploaded it.

    I hope this helps someone....

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61748
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Music GT
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 08:45:02

      I am hosting a music GT at my house (1309 E. Shangri La Rd, PHX) on Friday
    December 8th at 7pm. We will have some snack food and pop (mostly diet) and
    you can feel free to bring anything or nothing else that you may want. We
    are equipped to play CDs, audio cassettes, records, and VHS video tapes.
      The phone number is 943-7447.
        See You Later,
           Dean H.

    Message: 61749
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Faith
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 09:37:23

    Please turn off your shouting! -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61750
    Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: CPN
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 14:27:33

    For U S West to have the CPN feature avaiable it will take some major
    hardware changes and a software upgrade. They will also have to purchase a
    speical feature package. The last I heard, which was just a few days ago,
    Arizona branch of U S West was not going to purchase the feature package
    that CPN requires. They are going to do the hardware changes and software
    upgrade, but for another reason, money. It will save them money by reducing
    the number of trunks they need between offices. The way a call to another
    office is handle now a trunk path is set up even if the call can not be
    completed at the other end. When the changes are made the orignating office
    will know the other line is available before the trunk path is set up. Some
    of you might understand what I mean by all this, others may not, but feel
    free to ask me questions. I will try to answer them. Even though I work on
    the equipment I don't know everything about all the in and outs of it.

                                   <<< Joe >>>

    Message: 61751
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: One true god
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 16:07:02

    I believe that the one true religion is Zoroastrianism. You can find the
    church office number under Z in the business white pages. I think they
    think that Thursday is the Sabbath and are therefore also known as the
    Fourth Day Adventists, thus lending credence to the rumor that the Food
    and Drug Administration is a secret agency of an international conspiracy
    with its roots in ancient Babylon.

    (And you know who is behind international terrorism, don't you?) Yup.
    Ancient Babylon.

    Message: 61752
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: In search of
    Subject: Mark Adkins?
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 17:12:37

            Where did he go?   I was enjoying his posts....  Sniff (tm)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61753
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/07/89  Time: 21:34:06

    Sometimes I think you like to pick on me.  Was it something I said?  More
    than half the things I post on Apollo are strictly tongue-in-cheek.  I guess
    the ACLU has done some good things, but I don't know what they are.  I don't
    think I bad mouth them every other post.  Maybe every other 3rd post.  Ha!
    So what have they done lately that makes you proud of the ACLU?  I don't
    think the founding fathers of the Constitution were Bible-thumpers.  Why
    would you think that?  Lets talk about something fun.  The following
    subjects are not fun:
    MLK
    ACLU
    Christian bashing

    Message: 61754
    Author: $ James Hawley
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 01:13:54

    I heard that Jeff Beck was on tour.

    Message: 61755
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Thornbob
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 03:29:04

    Bob, I'm not picking *on* you, I'm picking *with* you.

    The ACLU has done plenty of good stuff.  It has fought for free speech,
    against censorship, and for civil rights, for example.  In the 1930s it
    opposed the censorship of James Joyce's _Ulysses_.  In 1954 it aided the
    victory of the "Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka," a landmark case that
    made segregation in public schools illegal.  The ACLU tries to
    defend the Bill of Rights, and this has led them to defend even the free
    speech and free assembly rights of Nazis and Communists.  What they are
    saying is, "Even if we don't like what a group has to say, we should defend
    their right to say it."  The ACLU fought for pro-choice and helped in the
    "Roe v. Wade" case.  (To you, that's bad, but not to me.)
         They've also made their share of bad decisions.

    You're right that you didn't say the founding fathers were Christians.  Paul
    and Cliff were saying that.  The reason I want to discuss these things is
    that I want to know why people believe in them.  If there are good reasons,
    I'd like to hear them and maybe I'll change my mind.  But the usual response
    to "Put up or shut up" lately seems to be to shut up, as also with the "The
    Constitution is based on the Bible" statement.  Either nobody wants to talk
    about this and defend it, or nobody can defend it.  In any case, it's
    irritating to me, though I probably shouldn't let it be.

    You listed topics that aren't any fun; how about listing some that are?

    Message: 61756
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Where's Jeff?
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 03:38:03

    10 to 1 says that he's Roger Mann.

    Message: 61757
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Joe/cpn
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 05:47:12

     As untechnical and unelectronical minded as I am, you could use up all of
    Cliff'S HD storage space to expain the phenomenon of how this cpn system
    works, and I probably wouldn't understand any more at the end than I did at
    the beginning. I'm just amazed that things like this can even be done, and
    don'T worry too much about the how.
     Is there any ballpark idea of what such a thing would cost the consumer
    who wants to use this service?
     THanks for the offer of information, Joe. It is appreciated.

    Message: 61758
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 05:57:52

     I never said that all of the founding fathers were Christians, Zak. Such a
    statement could too easily be disproved, since in fact, they weren't.
     What I have said is that the Constitution, and basically all laws, are
    Bible based, since the principles for which these papers were written are
    basically those principles which were laid out in the Bible years before.
     If you were to research documents through the ages, using the law of first
    mention, you would find that many of he precepts on which this country was
    founded (basically freedoms of religion, thought, expression, etc.) were
    first found in the pages of Holy Scripture.
     Again, if you look at the basic laws that govern mankind, especially in the
    U.S., it is not difficult to see a foundation in God's laws as they were
    laid out in Exodus and Leviticus in the Bible. Simply put, when it comes to
    laws governing our actions and interactions with our fellow man, God
    probably said it first.
     If you have an argument with that, may I suggest a careful reading of the
    Old Testament law, and then that you take up any problems you may have with
    God, not Cliff or me?

    Message: 61759
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak's odds
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 08:42:57

    I'll bet $10 that he isn't, Zak.  Any other takers?

    Message: 61760
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Entertainment/Movies
    Subject: Sequels
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 10:39:27

    Don't you think that movie sequels are out of control?  They just finished
    filming, on location at a university in Montreal, the final scenes for Fatal
    Attraction II: The Mass Murder.

    Message: 61761
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: In search of
    Subject: 61752/Mark Adkins?
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 12:29:34

    I called Mark the other day after he disappeared from CarolCom and Mensa. He
    said he was spending 3 hours a day on BBS (being clever ain't easy) and was
    working on another project that involved an Amiga. He would be back after
    a while.

    Message: 61762
    Author: Roger Mann
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: 61756/Where's Jeff?
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 12:32:52

    Sorry, you lose. I am flattered by the comparison, but quite frankly I don't
    have the wetware thesaurus that Mark(Jeff) carries around with him.

    Message: 61763
    Author: $ Beauregard Dog
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Zak's wager
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 13:03:00

    Pay up!

    Message: 61764
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: The SYSOP Speaks
    Subject: HD Relief
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 14:00:20

            This is the same post as before, but I am adding three more users to
    the list...  Shirley Bear, Beauregard Dog and James Hawley....

            I wish to thank Nick Ianuzzi, Ann Oudin and Dan Derwin for the
    H-D Relief.  It sure helped ease some of the $marts...

            This was beyond the call of duty!

            And everything seems to be working just fine... (-;}

                            Happy Holidays!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 61765
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bible-based law
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 17:21:37

    Sorry, the foundations are Lockean/Hobbesian natural law as revealed by
    human reason, not biblical revelation.  See, e.g., _The Moral Foundations of
    the American Republic_, edited by Robert H. Horwitz (1986, University Press
    of Virginia).
       And anyway, the Old Testament stole its basic laws from the Babylonians.

    Message: 61766
    Author: $ Jim Lippard
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ACLU
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 17:24:55

    The ACLU came to the defense of Oliver North.  A nice list of good things
    they have done may be found in the article "The ACLU:  Suspicious
    Principles, Salutary Effects" by William P. Moulton, Liberty magazine May
    1988, pp. 29-34.  Some of the court cases include giving teachers the right
    to teach foreign languages in Iowa schools, ensuring that Indians could vote
    in New Mexico, allow people to perform electrical work in Philadelphia even
    if they live outside the city, allow people to give poetry readings in NYC
    without a license, etc. etc.

    Message: 61767
    Author: Mark Story
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: DOGMA
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 17:51:04

    Mr. Savage ...
    I quite enjoyed your expressions about th e Catholic church ....
    I currently haven't the time to correspond/expound ... but am looking
    forward to brainstorm on the subject also ....
    keep thinking clearly and loving God
    Talk to you soon !
    Mark Story

    Message: 61768
    Author: $ Gary Jones
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: New Status Members
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 19:24:53

    Welcome to the New Status members of Apollo.  Hope you'll enter into our
    zany world, and give and take with the rest of us.  Just remember, we don't
    get angry, we just get **even**.

                                                       ****  Gary   ****

    Message: 61769
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 19:50:18

    Re:  "It has fought for free speech, against censorship"

    Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.  From my point of view, the ACLU
    has done more to unleash porn than any other group I know of.  They are not
    for free speech; they are for flooding the minds of our youth with porn.
    This is their idea of free speech.

    Re:  "You're right that you didn't say the founding fathers were
    Christians."

    I didn't say that.  I think most of the founding fathers are Christians.
    You said before something about them being Bible thumpers.  There is quite a
    difference.  Maybe to you all Christians are Bible thumpers.  That would
    explain a lot of your attitude.

    Re:  "You listed topics that aren't any fun; how about listing some that
    are?"

    I like to talk about the Bible.  I really enjoy that.  I like to talk about
    computers, electronics, and related things.

    Message: 61770
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jim
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 19:55:06

    Re:  "The ACLU came to the defense of Oliver North."

    Did they really?  That's the first I've heard of it.  If they really did,
    then I must confess, the ACLU has done at least one thing I like.

    Message: 61771
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
    Subject: Music at Hathaways..
    Date: 12/08/89  Time: 21:19:38

            Sorry I was unable to attend the fun and music with the rest of you
    happy GT goers.  Sandy and I are just too down under the weather to sing
    along with you tonight in person.  Have a toast (with Pepsi) wishing for the
    SysOpette and SysOp's recovery from what ever ails them.  (ain't no fun)

            This all probably makes Mr Williams very happy... ha ha haha.. Gag!

    Cheers to the gang at Hathaways place!

    *=* the 'Xxxxxx' Apollo SysOp *=*

    Message: 61772
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 05:42:22

    That's just it.  The Bible isn't the first book to state laws.  If you go
    back several hundred years to the Code of Hammurabi, you'll see that they
    had a list of laws similar to the 10 Commandments.  Obviously they weren't
    based on the OT, but the other way around.

    Does the bible guarantee free speech, the right to trial by jury, freedom of
    religion, etc?  I don't think so.  I don't know the bible that well, but I
    remember something about worshipping "no other gods before me."  Doesn't
    sound like freedom of religous practice.  I'd like to see some OT quotes
    that show the similarities between the Bible and Constitution.

    Message: 61773
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob/pornography
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 05:51:57

         On pornography:  I wouldn't say that the ACLU's motive for defending
    pornography is "to fill the minds of our youth with porn."  This is
    obviously not the case; the ACLU have never fought for pornography to be
    available to minors.
         The ACLU do have genuinely valid motives.  The point is that all
    contending ideas, no matter how absurd or repulsive, deserve the right to be
    expressed.  ACLU Legislative Director Barry Lynn defends pornography on
    these grounds:  the ideas pornography reflects have been around a long time
    and are therefore serious ideas.  "A fundamental argument of pornography,"
    Lynn said, "is that women ought to be subjugated.  Now, that is an idea
    which has held sway in much of the world for the last two thousand years, or
    even longer [the Bible included].  It is certainly and important idea, even
    though it is an idea we as a society are coming to repudiate.  But it is a
    serious idea, and not an idea which ought to be suppressed."

    Message: 61774
    Author: $ Zak Woodruff
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beauregard Dog
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 05:57:40

         Oooh, ah...I don't have the money right now.  Can I pay you some time
    in the near future?  Is the 15th a good day?

    Message: 61775
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Zak
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 06:29:37

     The Bible really has a lot to say about freedoms and law, etc. In fact, in
    one passage, it deals with the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy,
    peace, longsuffering, goodness, mercy and faith, and indicates that those
    who live by them need no law, since there is no law against such things.
    This is true freedom. THe freedom to live according to God's love, and to
    show it toward others. If all people did that,we would have no need for
    laws, or for enforcement, or for prisons, or for such as the ACLU. (The
    latter of which I feel that we have no need for now.)

    Message: 61776
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Beau/that movie
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 08:21:23

    How can they make a sequel to Fatal Attraction? She dies at the end. Is
    Michael Douglas in this one too? Maybe they turned her into another Jason.
                                  -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61777
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 08:23:21

    Who is Shirley Bear? We have another woman on the board? Is she a new
    member? Please tell here to reveal herself. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61778
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Porn
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 08:27:23

    I think this is a good time for some of you to give your definition of what
    'Porn' is and isn't! Could be interesting. Any comments? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61779
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul/last/list
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 08:30:22

    I can go along with your list - love, joy, peace, etc, but NOT
    longsuffering! That doesn't make a bit of sense. What is 'true freedom' got
    to do with that or the need for laws? -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 61780
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ACLU/Kiddie porn
    Date: 12/09/89  Time: 10:05:34

            Re: Zak "The ACLU has never fought to make porn available to minors"

    A quote from the ACLU "Laws which punish the distribution of such materials
    to minors violate the 1st Amendment"

            The ACLU thinks the distribution and sale of all pornography should
    be made legal, even so-called "kiddie porn" which depicts small children
    engaging in sexual intercourse.
                    Daniel J. Popeo  Washington Legal Foundation.