### Apollo BBS Archive - August 10, 1990

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 21:52:51

    Rod
            Got the $ataus fee you sent for 'Sandi'....  THANKS!

    Sandy and I did note that you signed the letter and then wrote:
                           "God Bless"

    Again...thanks for making me Sandy and I feel good.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I may purchase some more $tatus in the near future.  Thanks,  Rod

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:27:48

            Yeh, also the same as Jose Contreras.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Did your parents plan it that way?
     2:
     3:By the way, I am in the Bible (Wholly Babble) too.  It is:
     4:
     5:        "Thy Rod and thy staff shall comfort thee."
     6:
     7:Isn't that spiffy?
     8:
     9:                                Rod

    Mail from John Cummings
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 22:58:36

            I just had a great birthday party here, for one of my sons and one
    of my grandchildren, so I forget what we were discussing and what your
    question relates to; did my parents plan it that way?
            My parents planned as best they could, and tried to handle the
    changes in plans as they came up, but they both died smiling in the Faith,
    as the Irish say, and I have no doubt they are in heaven now, praying for
    their son.
            Also:
                    "Spare the Rod and spoil the child."
                            --John C.--
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:I forgot what we were discussing also.  Were we talking about how many
     2:Christians it took to change a lightbulb?
     3:
     4:I often wonder why hospitals and disease exist as there are so many
     5:Christian faith healers around.  But what can one expect with a Middle
     6:Eastern based religion, eh?
     7:
     8:I would imagine that many of the people of Jesus' time looked like Yassar
     9:Arafat.  How come we bit on that religion when we could have made up a much
    10:better one?  It certainally could have been less bloody and hypocritial.  I
    11:dunno.
    12:
    13:Those Mid Eastern people have tried many times since to give us a new
    14:religion but after they conned a certain percentage of our children we
    15:kicked them out on trumpted up charges.  Yet we still keep that one know as
    16:Christianity that they gave us.  But thank God our Jesus is shown to us as
    17:the white male, American model although I suppose we could get the black
    18:model or the original Mid East model without too much fuss.
    19:                                Rod
    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 68456
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: stories
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 16:12:03

    I'm a senior journalism major at ASU and in my classes last year I had to
    interview for a number of stories, including several emissions stories (the
    oxygenated fuels thing was a big deal at the time), the head of AZ Rep.
    party, the head veterinarian in the state about drugs in racehorses, even
    the leading racehorse trainer of all time in earnings--I had to go to
    California to do that one. Unfortunately, no I haven't tried to sell any
    stories to anyone yet, since these were all done for writing lab classes.
    Maybe next semester. (Despite my class level, I'm behind in classes, having
    switched majors in the middle of sophomore year from geology. I just
    finished relatively beginning level classes. My teacher encouraged me to try
    out for the internship positions, and I was one of only two from my class
    level to even try...I'm the backup internship choice for the East Valley
    Tribune papers.)

    Message: 68457
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: transit in LA
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 16:14:31

    I suspect, however, that the all important population density is much more
    appropriate in those sections of LA where buses work well. Here in Phoenix,
    there are just not enough people who need to go along a given route to
    justify all night service or more convenient schedules. (Buses run every
    half hour, for example on a major street such as 24th St. That's a very long
    time to wait, but running buses more often would just have a bunch of empty
    buses clogging traffic.)

    Message: 68458
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: religion in mideast
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 16:21:22

    Religion is first and foremost in middle eastern countries. It is a huge
    part of a muslim's life. The religion they believe in is merely a "new and
    improved" version of Christianity, which in turn evolved directly out of
    Judaism. They all believe in the same one god. The only problem is that
    the earlier groups don't accept the latters' prophets. In fact, the islamic
    faith recognizes Jesus, though it considers him a prophet only...as they
    consider Mohammed only a prophet. (To them, there is only one god and one
    manifestation of him...the various Christian stories sound almost
    polytheistic to them.)

    Message: 68459
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: War!
    Subject: Germany
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 16:30:36

    Germany was in pretty dire straits prior to WWII. In the midst of terrible
    recession(the only reason a nation would follow a madman like Hitler;
    desperate people follow leaders who have a plan) caused by demands of the
    winning side after WWI and probably not helped by the worldwide recession
    that occurred later, Germany probably had very little power before they
    began conquest of weak nearby countries.
    However, the League of Nations was even more ineffectual and was unable to
    prevent Hitler's annexations.
    As for his intelligence...well, however intelligent Hitler was, his thoughts
    and plans were obscured by his general lunacy...

    Message: 68460
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Yugos vs GM
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 16:38:27

    Although the figures don't implicitly point out the flaw in that line of
    reasoning, the rebuttal is easy: There are a lot more GM cars on the road
    than Yugos. (In fact, an interesting correlational set of figures would show
    the percentage of each make in total vehicles.)
    ...if GMs make up 40 to 50% of cars on the road, for example, then it
    wouldn't be all that surprising to find 46% of broken down cars being GMs.
    Also one has to take into account other variables such as age. Theoretically
    new cars should break down less than older ones and I suspect that there are
    a lot more GMs, than, say, Hondas or Yugos or whatever, in the break-down
    prone population of cars(mid'70's to early '80's).

    Message: 68461
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 17:50:58

    JL> Don't tell me that hussain couldn't overrun the saudi's without
    JL> our help.

    I didn't say that!

    Now, what was it you said that I disagreed with?  Let me refresh your
    memory.

    JL> Sadam would overrun the rest of the mideast, and eventually
    JL> control all the oil.

    I disagree that Sadam can or will overrun the *rest* of the mideast, and
    eventually control *all* the oil.

    Keep your facts straight!

    Message: 68462
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C./68415
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 18:49:27

    I don't know what religion Saddam Hussein is.  He is supposedly Sunni
    Moslem.
    There have been an awful lot of religious men who have been just as cruel as
    atheists (Torquemada, etc.).  But it is not necessary to give a list.  The
    fact is, one cannot determine the moral nature of a person merely by what
    religion they profess to practice, or by their atheism, for that matter.
    You seem to forget all of the religious wars in which many, many people were
    put to death, robbed, tortured, as well as all of the religious dissidents
    who have suffered the same.  It would appear that religion does not
    guarantee a decent moral code, or adherence to it.

    Message: 68463
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 18:56:57

    And I say that those figures (less pollution now than there was in twenty
    years) only appeared after the oxygenated fuels program had been in
    operation.  This does not mean that one caused the other; on the other hand,
    exactly what else changed which could account for it?  I saw the figures,
    too, and I find it difficult to believe that the person in charge of the
    oxygenated fuels program would deny the efficacy of his program, whether or
    not it was efficacious.  How do you explain the fact that the pollution
    levels before the program were not the lowest in twenty years, by any means,
    and after the program had been in operation, the pollution levels fell to
    the lowest they had been at in twenty years?
    And who says that the pollution levels in the last twenty years in Phoenix
    have been good, or even acceptable?

    Message: 68464
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Paul/68436
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 19:02:55

    Good point.  The fact that a country takes position doesn't mean that it is
    popular with its people.  On the other hand, it doesn't mean it's unpopular.
    I guess time will tell.

    Message: 68465
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Bob/Iraq
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 19:04:34

    On the other hand, little Kuwait represents 1/4 of the middle east oil
    reserves.  With that kind of wealth, comes a lot of power, and that includes
    military power.

    Message: 68466
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon/love
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 19:42:18

    Those were some excellent posts, Gordon.  You did an excellent job of
    analyzing the components of love without losing sight of the fact that
    love is more than the mere sum of these components.
    The only thing I question is your (and Melissa's) analysis of the behavior
    of abused women who cling to their abusers.  I can't explain their behavior,
    but I find it difficult to believe that that the need for familiarity is
    greater than the need for freedom from abuse.  I understand that we *can*
    become attached to things...to our environment...because we get used to it.
    But this is a result of becoming comfortable in it.

    One point with which I quite agree, is that while love may serve in one's
    best interest, it does not necessarily follow that such love is motivated
    by self interest.

    I also enjoyed your analysis of the British monarchy.

    Message: 68467
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad Max/Airborne
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:31:57

            Right on, man, right on! Airborne all the way! (Even tho my
    airborne days were with the 101st, only as a trainee, never in serious
    stuff, and they washed me out before they let me jump.  I still love those
    guys and the whole airborne idea!     --John C.--

    Message: 68468
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sandi/pollution
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:35:11

            How about my nearly new, clean, low mileage, late model, 1967 Ford
    Mustang, 200 ci 6 banger, 3 on the floor, and fun around corners? For that
    matter, how about your Ford? Didn't they stop preoduction of that model
    around 1969?

    Message: 68469
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Paul S./Sandi
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:39:59

            Sandi Marlin is just a psuedonym, nom de plume, or feather name. She
    is really Pat Buchanan, just likes to use different names when visiting
    strange BBSs.

    Message: 68470
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Annie/Religions
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:45:33

            Oh, yes, Christians include some of the meanest, nastiest bastards
    the world has ever seen, and the Inquisition was only one of many instances
    of it. But Christianity is something else--a "religion" so to speak.  And if
    you go to deepest Africa and find a tribe which venerates love, kindness,
    mercy, gentleness to neighbor, then you'll find they adore a God of some
    kind, and they believe their God dictates their ten commandments, or
    whatever they have for a moral code. I think.   --John C--

    Message: 68471
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Jeff B/religion
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:54:46

            This will be tough to answer, but here it is: distinguish between
    religion-the teachings, thoughts, mores and morals--and the religionists,
    like Torquemada, Luther, Henry VIII, etc., etc. Christianity, a religion,
    promotes a morality, a moral code, which is admirable. Atheism does not--in
    fact, many critics say atheism merely makes gods of those who reject God.
            I know my earlier post is easy to attack; hey, everybody slips now
    and then.

    Message: 68472
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Yugo
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 22:58:46

    The Yugo still has a lousy reliability record from figures I've seen
    previously, even after you've factored in the market share.

    Message: 68473
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Cultures...
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 23:00:33

    I certainly agree with Jeff in that I don't put much faith in lip service to
    a religious creed, or even diligent adherence to religious "practices", as a
    guarantee that a man is humanitarian or even ethical in the true spirit of
    his claimed religion.  Somewhere at the heart of all important religions is
    an injunction to love God and behave decently towards our fellow men,
    surrounded by a code of guidelines for doing so.  Trouble is, we are so
    selective in how we interpret this code.  Almost always we choose to
    emphasize some of the rules and play others down, or even ignore them
    completely.  And it is *amazing* how far a code can be perverted to serve
    the will of particular groups or individuals.

    The result is that each religion, or sect within a religion, develops a
    culture of its own, which may be so far removed from the spirit of the
    original as to turn it on its head.  Let's take this Hell business for
    example.  My parents were Christian, and I was aware that there was supposed
    to be a Hell, and yet somehow it never loomed large in my awareness.
    Emphasizing the positive results of Godliness, or morality, or whatever
    instills a sense of confidence, and creates an optimistic culture of reward
    in which religious belief is a strong support.  Emphasizing the dread perils
    of Hell if you put one foot wrong instills fear, and creates a pessimistic
    culture dominated by punishment, where everyone is constantly looking over
    his shoulder -- or over his neighbor's.  Although in fact you don't need a
    religion to do that.

    Message: 68474
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Religion
    Subject: ...like Iraq's
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 23:01:50

    An individual's relationship with God is entirely personal, but when
    critiquing a religion it is necessary to look not only at its tenets (read
    my lips!), but also at the culture it has created.  Islam evolved from
    earlier Judaism and even acknowledges Jesus as a prophet.  In theory it
    ought to have a culture as humanitarian as either of its predecessors.  But
    as practiced by certain groups it seems to generate much more than its share
    of hatred, cruelty and oppression.

    Iraq is predominantly Sunni Moslem and Iran is Shi'ite.  If I have this the
    right way round, the Shi'ites claim to be followers of the Son of the
    Prophet.  The Sunnis are followers of a schismatic group that split off
    after Mohammed's death.  This group contended for power with the group led
    by Mohammed's son, and eventually the son was captured and horribly put to
    death.  The Shi'ites hated the Sunnis for ever after.  So Iran and Iraq were
    fighting a war thirteen hundred years old.  I dare say the war that parts of
    the Islamic nation are fighting with the rest of the world is only a little
    older.  But these people have awfully long memories, and an insatiable
    thirst for vengeance.

    Right now most of the rest of the world (including the USSR for once!) is
    supporting the U.S. against Iraq.  I hope we play our military and
    diplomatic cards carefully and keep it that way.  Fortunately the embargo
    should also be particularly effective against Iraq.  A nation can't eat oil.

    Message: 68475
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: More on the latter
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 23:02:54

    Thanks for the compliments, Ann, and you too, Jeff.  And I'd have to
    disagree with Hans that "the only reason people in our society respect
    the fellow man is because of the fear of punishment for wrongdoing".  For
    some people deterrence is necessary to protect others, yes; but to suggest
    that fear is the only reason people respect one another is to deny the
    existence of love altogether, in any form.  If that were true we wouldn't
    have time to make any laws.  We'd be too busy tearing one another to pieces.

    Oh, and I forgot another source of "love" feelings: admiration.  Wanting to
    be like somebody else.  Another useful one that draws people together (as
    long as the hero(ine) doesn't fall off his or her pedestal).

    Message: 68476
    Author: $ Gordon Little
    Category: Sex & Love
    Subject: More on the latter
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 23:04:01

    I quite see Jeff's point that it is "difficult to believe that that the need
    for familiarity is greater than the need for freedom from abuse".  It is
    certainly not logical, at least by the rules of logic that most of us know.
    The point here is that the mind has other and strange forms of logic of its
    own, an important one being the power of association.  Things we experience
    coincidentally tend to become associated with one another, so that by this
    different logic one thing comes to "mean" the other, even though they are in
    reality quite unconnected.  This is how superstitions are formed, and sexual
    fetishes too.

    In a normal person the need for familiarity is certainly not greater than
    the need for freedom from abuse; but the need for *survival* IS greater.  To
    a small child, parents, family members and other "caregivers" mean survival.
    Giving the means to survival means giving love, in the mind of a child
    dependent upon it.  And when other things come with that "love" they become
    strongly associated with it -- like cookies and milk, and toys, and hugs,
    and lullabies -- and kicks and blows.  By this twisted logic, the idea
    develops that "if somebody loves you that means they hurt you, and vice
    versa".  Not at the conscious level of the mind, where such an idea can be
    challenged and seen to be absurd, but at a different level where it is much
    harder even to be aware of, and harder also to root out.  Hence the
    "irrational" needs and behavior.

    Message: 68477
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hussein
    Date: 08/09/90  Time: 23:40:09

    You mean to tell me with an army of 1 million he couldn't overrun an army of
    43000? BAH HUmbag

    Message: 68478
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 00:03:42

    The pollution was at a lower level long before the oxygenated fuels program
    than it was, say, 20 years before...that program improved things, but
    minimally(of course, my car gagged on it and got 15 instead of 20
    mpg)...actually, I think that should be obvious...let's take a look at some
    numbers...
    A 1970 vehicle(even when new), emitted vastly more pollution than a new one.
    (For example, 100+gms per mile, which I believe is the standard measure, for
    the older car, and 1988 or 1989 standards on new cars sets that at 3 gms per
    mile. Even though there are more cars here now, the majority of those cars
    run so much cleaner that it is impractical to even compare.) Go back much
    farther than that, and cars don't even have ANY antipollution devices (i.e.,
    my 62 Ford...I think '65 was about the first year that even California
    started paying attention to that stuff). Of course, an older car will run
    cleaner(as will any car), if it is well-maintained and in tune. Might I add
    that there is no point in aggressively trying to get those old cars off the
    road, as they are already far outnumbered and getting fewer every year due
    to natural attrition such as accidents and such.
    The oxygenated fuels program did not produce a huge lowering of pollution
    for a very simple reason. Like I said, it reduced pollution by about 20 to
    50 %(call and ask the guy yourself) across the board in all kinds of cars
    new and old, but when you're considering that most cars on the road only put
    out 5 or 10 gms per mile as it is, that's not translating to much of a
    difference.

    Message: 68479
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: old fords
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 00:07:13

    They stopped making the Falcon in 1970 and it was replaced, I suspect, by
    the Maverick...
    Like I was mentioning in the post I just wrote, a well-maintained engine
    will run cleaner(a smaller engine just as our straight sixes[I have a 170, a
    three on the tree, though] will generally be cleaner than a V8), plus I
    believe you have an EGR valve in your car...my mom has a '67 Mustang
    (fastback...frosted turquoise...used to have a hipo 289 but only a low
    compressioned mid-70's 302 now) and I think her old engine had at least
    that.

    Message: 68480
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Buchanan...me?
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 00:12:19

    Since I don't know for sure where you stand on Patrick Buchanan, I don't
    know whether to be flattered or offended(grin). But really, I'm just little
    me. One little tiny ordinary ASU student, and I don't have a column anywhere
    yet...

    Message: 68481
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 06:07:12

     It sounds as though you are doing very well. Congratulations, and the best
    of everything in your future.
     Thanks for the answer.

    Message: 68482
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C/Sandi
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 06:13:28

     OH? You mean I've been deceived all along?
    Comeon Pat! 'Fess up!
     (I thought that writing was too darn good for a stoodent!)
     smile

    Message: 68483
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: A-RABS
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 09:42:26

    I knew they'd do this. A call for a Holy War. Jihad. Anything
    to divert attention to what has already taken place. Problem is,
    there are bunches of brain dead types who'd jump right in on this
    and fight the Great Satan of the West.

    Dean: Nice replies, working two jobs sorta diverts my time on here
          anymore. You contradicted yourself in the message but that's
          O.k. I'll point out where later on.

    Mad Max: Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression you'd just
          love it if we went to war.

            From the looks of things now, I'd say your hearts desire is
    gonna happen. My prediction is that if we get involved, it'll just
    mess stuff up between us and the ARabs even more. They'll rebel and
    a small conflict will turn into a massive bloody war.

            All you arm-chair types should be even more prepared to
    use a bicycle now. I'm at war with the oil companies who deem it fit
    to punish us for actions of foreign countries. Even before they felt
    the price pinch, they pinch us. Ok. Ok. Let's have a nice old fashioned
    depression folks. You wanna raise your prices, I'll stop buying.
    See how far you get.
                            -Mike

    Message: 68484
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bobby on wrongs
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 10:55:41

    Re: "but if it is broken enough times, it no longer seems wrong."
    I have to agree with you there. As a society, we have broken many moral
    codes whether they be Christian or otherwise, it hasn't paid off - case in
    point - AIDS! But I do think breaking the supposedly moral code of divorce
    is good for instance. It should be easy - but we should teach that
    everything should be tried in a marriage before divorce court. I think
    that's a classic example of what you said in the above.
    Crime is another thing - it IS BEGINNING to pay off and many formally
    honest people will ask themselves WHY NOT? -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. My husband is beginning to struggle with that last statement right now.
    He's always been totally honest in all his dealings - but lately, pardon the
    crude expression, he's been screwed several times by other's and they are
    getting away with it. He used to believe in a hand shake - now you can have
    a contract and still 'get it in the end'! Lets just say he's becoming
    disillusioned by it all and goes around making such statements as ..
    "honesty doesn't pay anymore" or - "everybody has their hand in your pocket,
    maybe I'll put my hand in someone else's!" etc. etc. He'll never become
    dishonest no matter what, but ............!

    Message: 68485
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sandi on busses
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 10:58:16

    Re: "but running buses more often would just have a bunch of empty buses
    clogging traffic!"
    Not if the gas prices go up more. Heard on the news last night they went up[
    16 more cents a gallon. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68486
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 11:01:28

    Althought JT (you know, the pizza man?) would not agree with me, I still say
    if all were added up, more people over the centuries have 'died in the name
    of God' than for any other reason! No matter what the god's name was.
                       -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68487
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff. B. on abuse
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 11:07:07

    I too do not profess to understand why a woman would stay when she's being
    abused in any fashion - yet I have a son that's been married for 21 years
    and it's been a holy war for that period. He's tried to leave many times,
    only to go back. Right now he is here with us, but he moans and groans about
    missing all the turmoil (the wife in this case is the verbal abusive one) -
    he admits to not being able to enjoy peace and quiet - serenity. He doesn't
    know what to do with himself with out all that termoil in his life and he
    says it's because it's familiar - he knows no other life. I wouldn't be
    surprised that he will go back someday. But as to why, I don't know. The
    unfamiliar is scarey maybe, but this is ridiculous. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68488
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John C. religion
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 11:17:00

    I'll make a suggestion - read James Mitchner's book 'The Source' - it'll
    tell you why even the most primitive tribes have a god/gods. It's fiction,
    but interesting.
    If you don't want to read that big book - then the gist of it ...
    'man needed a god, so he invented one!' Truth or not, it fine reading and
    will make you think about it. Not that I'm trying to convert you or
    anything, it just lets you see where other opinions come from. There's
    always 2 sides and manybe more to every story er? -=*) ANN (*=-
    P.S. I find that the trouble with most religions - they are taught to the
    kids by the parents and the kids do not know other sides in which to make a
    choice. By the time the parents get through putting the fear of hell in the
    child, the child, when he becomes an adult will be too afraid to even read
    about such Blasphemous subjects. As a young adult I finally looked into
    other side - other religions - it did not actually shake my faith, but I
    changed my thinking around a bit. Now I know God in my own way, not the
    Catholics way, the Lutheran's way or my parents! I chose for myself.

    Message: 68489
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Gordon Little
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 11:21:36

    Did I ever tell you you are a real asset to this board or any other that you
    may belong to? If I didn't welcome you as a new user, I do now. Just stick
    around - PLEASE! You are also a very charming fellow and I hope to get to
    know you better in the future. -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 68490
    Author: $ Ralph Blehm
    Category: Religion
    Subject: God
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 12:06:56

    God is the answer to unanswerable questions.

    Message: 68491
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Love (1 of 3)
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 13:53:39

    Love is a four letter word and there are many other four letter words that
    help to describe love.  Need is just one of them.

    All animals have needs that cannot be denied for to deny them will cause
    mental instability such as in the cases of the Priests who we read about.

    Mother Nature has seen to it that the human develops a need around the age
    of thirteen.  This is usually when human boys and girls start exploring
    their own bodies and those of their friends if they can be so lucky.

    Mans law and moral code restricts under threat of various punishments this
    natural urge that all humans have.  One could say that a 'pressure cooker'
    is put on the fire in all humans at this tender age.

    Men and women must fulfill this inner urge to mate and produce offspring
    therefore each look for their ideal mate early on.  I remember my first
    'puppy love' and it really hit me hard.  I didn't understand all of the
    feelings my body was going through, dry mouth, lack of appetite, single
    vision, but all I knew was that I wanted to bond with her and never part.
    The feelings were intense but were not to be as society forbade the affair.

    So some of us do get lucky in that there are other common interests shared
    by the man and woman in a relationship.  Friendship is the most binding.

    A man looks for a woman and a woman for a man.  Hopefully we will find our
    idea mate but sometimes have to settle for less.  Fantasies are produced as
    a buffer in order to make up for any inadequacy.

    It seems that our one purpose is to mate and produce offspring.  Anything
    else is a bonus.  I am not saying that sexual fulfillment is the only reason
    that all people get married but it is very high on the list.  I doubt if
    someone would marry another if they thought there would be no mating.

    A person tries to fall in love with their prime idea of a mate but if not
    successful and life seems to be passing them by they will often take what
    is available.

    A man and a woman on a desert island will usually make the necessary
    'adjusting entries' in order to fall in love.  As in all animals of earth
    there is a scent emitted by the female at a certain time that is
    irresistible to the male of the species.

    There are a great number of divorces due to the marriage of people who
    simply must fulfill this need and afterwards greener pastures are
    envisioned.  Arguments usually occur more frequently in an unhappy
    relationship after the sex act.  People may argue a bit but as the days
    pass there is again a closeness caused by nature that pulls them together
    again.

    But if a man or a woman finds another lover then they are not pulled
    together with the one they married because they have another choice.

    If prostitution were totally wiped out in this world then one would see
    many more sexually related crimes.

    All I can advise when looking for that perfect mate is to go after someone
    you greatly admire and respect.  Sex will take a person just so far and if
    there isn't anything else then the offspring of that relationship will be
    the main ones to suffer.  And this is because our social order is set up in
    a rather antiquated way during these dark days of our evolution.

    Everyone will fall in love with someone or something as it is demanded by a
    center in our mind that only a lobotomy can eliminate.  Try to make the
    best choice you can but with the pressures of lust living in our minds from
    our early youth with no legal way to fulfill ourselves then that choice is
    often difficult to arrive at.  Because Mother Nature and the human social
    thinking is out of sync by 5 or 6 years then all types of social ills are
    in evidence.

    Message: 68494
    Author: $ Jeff Lochansky
    Category: War!
    Subject: Mideast
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 14:57:25

    Well for the sake of being branded a warmonger, I do have to speak up.
    Yes, I think it is by far time we showed the world , especialy the arabs
    that you can only mess with us for so long. I tired of hearing on the news,
    or reading in the paper, about some arab or any other nation for that fact
    tell the rest of the world how much they hate the western democrocies and
    the United States. I am tired of our nation being threatned by a jerk like
    Hussein or gadaffi. We are by far one of the most prosperous nations of the
    world, we are by far one of the biggest military powers in the post cold war
    world. We are by far one of the most techonologically advanced nations of
    the world. I am tired of past presidents pussyfooting around the rest of the
    world. We were asked for help, we gave it, we are being messed with and it's
    about time we responded. There are over 3000 americans in iraq and kuwait,
    if it were me, I would give saddam two choices, let them go or we will come
    in and get them. As far as a chemical attack is concerned, one such attack,
    and I think a tactical nuclear strike against baghdad and end of story. I am
    by far not a warmonger, but my national pride can only take so much abuse.
    I am an american, I am an american veteran, I did go and try to reenlist,
    but due to my disability I was told I couldn't. I gave a piece of myself for
    my country and I'm willing to do so again, any time. I love this nation and
    anything it stands for, especially the way we defend the freedom of others
    when called upon, others did for us, lets pay back the favor.
    All I am is a disgrunted proud american veteran who can't take listening to
    the rest of the world condeming the nation he so much loves, thats all.
    And again, may god be with all or men in the persian gulf. The Mad Max

    Message: 68495
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: future
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 18:16:20

    Thanks. At this point, it looks like I need all the good wishes I can get...

    Message: 68496
    Author: $ Sandi Marlin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: pb
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 18:17:18

    Nope, not I. Just an argumentative journalism student...columns on the oped
    page are a long way away.

    Message: 68497
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C./religions
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 19:35:25

    Yes, but then, most people ARE religious -- especially primitives.  You
    won't find too many atheists amongst those tribesmen.
    That a tribe which venerates love, kindness, mercy, etc., worships a god,
    and believes that their god dictates their moral code, does not prove that
    god is necessary for such a moral code.  First of all, there are plenty of
    tribes which don't venerate such traits, or which only give them lip
    service, who also have gods that dictate their moral code.  Look at the
    Shiite moslems.  They claim that their god dictates the death and punishment
    of infidels.
    Second, there are plenty of atheists with decent moral codes.
    Third, you forget that it is the *people* who invent their god; consquently,
    they dictate their own moral codes, just as atheists do.  Atheists are just
    a little more honest about this.  If one man claims god has ordered that
    infidels are second class citizens, or worse, an evil that must be
    destroyed, and if another man claims that god has ordered that all men
    should live as brothers, that doesn't tell you anything about god.  That
    tells you about those men.

    Message: 68498
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: John C./68471
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 19:39:41

    The problem with trying to distinguish between the religion and the
    religionists is not as simple as you might think, particularly in the case
    of Christianity.  The Bible is largely open to interpretation, and it
    doesn't help matters that it continually contradicts itself.  The biggest
    incongruity is, of course, between the old and new testaments.  But even in
    the new testament, there is plenty to justify either persecution or love of
    others, depending on what you choose to amplify and what you choose to
    ignore or downplay.  Christianity does not promote *a* morality; it promotes
    a number of moralities, many of which are inconsistent with one another.

    Message: 68499
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Gordon/religion
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 19:43:11

    Well put.  The fact is, there are some people whose religion is a gentle
    crutch, and others for whom it twists their mind into paranoia.  But really,
    it is the individuals who choose what use to make of religion.  Religion
    is based on faith; consequently, what you choose to believe is a statement
    about you, not about the universe.

    Message: 68500
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: pollution
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 19:54:01

    A twenty to fifty percent reduction in pollution is enormous.
    If oxygenated fuels reduce the pollution of a car by twenty to fifty percent
    then those cars, taken together, reduce total auto emissions by the same
    amount.  It doesn't matter what the individual reduction is; when taken
    collectively, there was a twenty to fifty percent reduction in auto
    pollution.  Auto pollution is a major contributing factor to pollution.
    Therefore, it made a substantial difference.

    As for figures for individual years, I don't have those in front of me.  You
    can assert whatever you like.

    Message: 68501
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/domestic abuse
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 19:57:44

    I have learned not to take people's statements at face value, and that
    includes statements regarding their own motives (particularly statements
    regarding their own motives).

    Message: 68502
    Author: Red Dwarf
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Sandi/pollution
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 20:39:52

      The oxygenated fuels program did indeed lower pollution levels. The fact
    that only a small percentage of the alcohol or MTBE was added was testimony
    to the resistance of the oil companies to clean fuels. The fact that your
    mileage went down in no way proves that program is not worth continuing. My
    mileage went up, I used the alcohol though because it's not made from
    petroleum. Not that many cars did have problems with the new fuels. A lot of
    people blamed the fuel when the real problem was maintenence or normal wear.
    Many cars, with fairly simple modifications, can run on 100% alcohol made
    from corn grown right here in the good old USA.

    Message: 68503
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Ann/Religion
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 22:36:27

            I've already read the Source, and most of Michener's other books,
    too. My wife really likes his work--I don't think he's that good, but the
    Source was not bad. There is a good philosophical that each man makes his
    God in his own image; Really, uit means each of us understands God to the
    best our abilities, but each of us is diofferent, so each person's God is a
    bit different from the next one. Plz ignore typos.   --John C.--

    Message: 68504
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B./Religion
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 22:42:54

            Plz see one of my previous posts re: each man makes his own God. It
    is an oversimplification, of course, but philosophically valid to admit that
    each man's grasp of God will be different from the next one. This doesn't
    negate the concept of a God at all, it simply affirms the condition of man.
            And I still think it is instructive to ask for the moral code, the
    ethics, the mores, of atheism, to see how they stack up against Thomas
    Acquinas, for example.    --John C.--

    Message: 68505
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Jeff B./religion
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 22:49:49

            I should have read both of your posts. Then my responses would not
    be so disjointed. Yes, Christianity does propose several points which become
    bones of contention:witness the Puritans who left England to come to
    America, for example.  But it is hard to claim that Christianity is not
    based on a loving, merciful God. It is a God Who has given commandments,
    true, and those are serious, not just Ten Recommendations, but the gist of
    Christianity is that God loves us. (How much? And He spread his arms, and
    said, "This much!")     --John C.-- Well, that's sugary, but...

    Message: 68506
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: JeffB./Pollution
    Date: 08/10/90  Time: 22:52:31

            No, I think her answer is that oxygen had a very minor effect,
    because the major effect was the fact that old cars are dying and new cars
    are cleaner--hey, Sandi, help us on this.   --John C.--

    Message: 68507
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff Beck
    Date: 08/11/90  Time: 00:34:41

            From the fear of mankind make an idol and call it God.

                            Rod
    P.S.  Good posts on religion.