### Apollo BBS Archive - May 16, 1990

    Mail from Apollo SYSOP
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 09:12:05

    Rod..
            Please review your post number 65679.....  You posted that on the
    PUBlic board and I think you got a little carried away.  Please use the
    COSmos SIG for that type of post.

                    Thank You
                            clif-
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Okay but Peter was here and we both read that post together.  Then Dean
     2:stopped by tonight to pick up the GT tape while showing me the Gun Tape
     3:which, by the way, was really great.  Anyway, Dean could find nothing wrong
     4:with it (the message) either.
     5:
     6:In it I was just being totally honest.  When I was a Christian I denied that
     7:I looked at other women's asses with lust in my heart but I still looked
     8:anyway.  Now, any pretty woman's ass that I find good looking takes me
     9:straight to fantasy ville.
    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 65680
    Author: Jeff Lochansky
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: response
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 00:00:15

    I did not call anybody a drug dealer!!!!! That would not be fair to do
    without knowing the person.The only reason this suject is so important to
    me,
    is because drugs have once destroyed my life. And I was not the user.
    I to have tryed drugs in my time, while in the US ARMY, but I saw they were
    no good to anyone. I lost a woman I dearly loved and still do to drugs, I
    also lost a child, because it went with her. I could not convince her to
    stop using, and she still is,because she enjoys them. You would say that it
    is her right to do as she pleases, and I agree, but she just bore a child
    with severe  medical problems, because of her abuse. That child will never
    live a normal life because of his mothers drug abuse, and there is no
    justice in that, atleast not that I can see. I will not stop my fight
    against drugs, nomatter what anbody says. I could not save my exWife,
    because it was destroying me along with her, which by the way is called
    codependency aand is just as adicctive as drug abuse. Do not tell me to
    legalize drugs, because they would have to be persribed by a doctor. What
    would a addict who is lets say pregnant do when she wants drugs? The doctor
    would not perscribe them because of the child. what would she do then? She
    would go back to her old dealer. So you see it wouldnt work. you say why get
    a perscibtion for drugs? Because there are no addicts out there that would
    stop using if a doctor told them so. By the way I am in no way or form an
    athiest!!!!!!!!!!! I am roman catholic. I do not go to church regulary, but
    I do believe in god. I just mentioned this to not be asocciated with the
    athiest fraction of this board.

    I mentioned earlier that my statement to drop the bomb on all Drug Dealers
    was just a figure of speech. I want to get some responses and it worked.
    I believe that we have to find a solution to the drug problem, and yes also
    the alcohol problem. I dont agree with having to find a solution to
    cigarretes, because I have yet to read about somebody killing because they
    were desperate for a smoke. I will say again hoping that the D.P. will go
    away is not going to solve it, I think is is going to get worse. But you
    have to look at the root of it: Gangs young kid think gangmembers are cool
    why? because they drive nice cars they have money which the kid looking at a
    gang member probaly does not have. How do we solve this?, by making
    education look good to this kid, let him see his or hers potential in a real
    world. It all come's down to education. You say: but they buy drugs in
    school. that would not happen if our educational system was worth a damm.
    Our teachers are underpaid and therfore not motivated. How can a child take
    example for such a person? IS THIS ALL GETTING TO LONG FOR YOU ALL? I hope
    so because it is a HUGE PROBLEM. as you all can see it is not just drugs,
    its lots of things. We have to attack it at the root, with better
    education,counseling and guidence from others. please try to make me see it
    your way, as long as there is still costructive criticisum there is still
    hope. I am not a COP bytheway.
    Ive got to go see you all later
    ========================MAD MAX===========================

    Message: 65682
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sigh...Rod!
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 00:30:44

            Re: Post # 65679

            I apollo-gize if anyone is offended...  Looks like Ol'Rod got
    carried away with himself.  I hope Rod will correct it....  sigh!

                            clif-

    Message: 65683
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ((SHIELDS))
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 01:12:38

            If you users can't keep the PUBlic board cleaner, then you will
    force me to place the ((SHIELDS)) into the 100% mode to lock out all
    possible children who may log in.  The problem is, it will lock out other
    potential adults.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

    Message: 65684
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Question?
    Subject: NO MORE
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 01:41:11

         No more questions by users posted in the (v)ote cmd.???

    I think we should get to (v)ote on this.

    Message: 65685
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Religion
    Subject: BIBLE
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 01:47:16

         Why should you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?  Because God
    told us it is.  Who says this God ain't logical!

    Message: 65686
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: ROD!
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 01:59:11

        Rod, will stop thinking about your penis for one minute?  This is
    suppose to be a family-oriented board!

    Message: 65687
    Author: $ Peter Petrisko
    Category: Drug Talk
    Subject: LOCHANSKY
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 02:08:59

         How do you propose we make education (and a part-time job at McDonald's
    to earn some spending money - $3.85 an hour at a time) look good to a kid
    who KNOWS he can make $$thousands$$ a week selling drugs?  As long as there
    is such a high profit margin in selling drugs you can't.  The only way to
    take the profit OUT is to legalize.  This would effectively pull the rug out
    from under the market.
         I'm sorry to hear about your ex-wife.  Maybe if our society was a
    little more open, problems like this could be solved easier.  When you
    have a gov't that intrudes upon the privacy of its citizens every day, what
    can you expect but fear and misunderstanding?
         Just out of curiosity, did you support or oppose the war in Vietnam?

    Message: 65688
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 03:26:37

    Re:  "The religious view of sex, other than forgivenication, is that it is
    destructive and must lead to ruined relationships, disease, and unwanted
    pregnancy."

    That's not quite true.  The Judeo-Christian concept does not forbid sex in
    marriage.  In marriage, sex is given God's full blessing.  It is only
    outside marriage that sex will "lead to ruined relationships, disease, and
    unwanted  pregnancy" and is condemned.

    Re:  "it is the ignorance fostered by religious attitudes which is most to
    blame"

    On the contrary, it is when we follow God's standard that we are free from
    ruined relationships, disease, and  unwanted  pregnancy."

    Message: 65689
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 03:33:58

    Re:  "I'm sick of venom like this, spewed simply to raise the ire of the
    Christians on this board."

    I know just how you feel Daryl.  There's only 2 or 3 people on Apollo who
    constantly do this.  I have developed the habit or either skipping their
    messages or just refusing to reply to them.  You know the verse about
    throwing pearls to pigs.

    Message: 65690
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dog
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 03:37:03

    Re:  "the slightest tongue-in-cheek comments"

    Get real Dog.  I would hardly consider your comment "the slightest
    tongue-in-cheek comment."

    Message: 65691
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger Mann
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 05:17:10

     I doubt that any human alive could convince you that the Bible is the Word
    of God, Roger. That will have to be the work of the Holy Spirit in your
    life. (And I sometimes wish He would hurry!)

    Message: 65692
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Roger's theology
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 05:22:50

     As you stated your beliefs, Roger, I would not call you an atheist at all.
    Your message sounded like a perfect example of a self-centered, humanistic,
    if it feels good, do it, philosophy.
     Of course, it puts God in "His place" somewhere down the line of values,
    but it's not atheistic.

    Message: 65693
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Religion
    Subject: More Mann theology
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 05:26:40

    "Discoveries made in the physical realm can be used to modify beliefs held
    in the spiritual realm." R. Mann.
     Since man, created in God's image, is a spirit, having a soul, dwelling in
    a physical body, it would seem to me that you have your priorities a bit in
    reverse, Rog. Of course, that ties right in with the secular humanism you
    stated in your earlier post. At least you're consistent.

    Message: 65694
    Author: $ Paul Savage
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean H.
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 05:29:58

     If I recall your statement correctly, you referred to "the religious view",
    which, by omission would tend to isolate what you believe the view of the
    religionists to be. Yes, that would be inaccurate.

    Message: 65695
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: News Today
    Subject: Jeff/DNA
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 08:53:12

    I'll read it and we can discuss it.

    Message: 65696
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod/dejavu
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 08:55:57

    At least we know we can go through this at least one more time. In an
    infinite universe with an infinite amount of time...

    Message: 65697
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Rod/Eve
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 08:56:32

    And you have proved it time and time again !

    Message: 65698
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: paul/bs
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 09:01:41

    In other words, there is no reason to believe the Bible is the Word of
    God.

    Case closed.

    Message: 65699
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Paul's theology
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 09:05:18

    Thank you for calling me humanistic. I believe in humanism. It will save
    the world. As far as being self-centered, I don't see how you arrived at
    that conclusion. Would you mind telling me ?

    Message: 65700
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: paul.humanism
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 09:08:15

    Not "secular" since my humanism is based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ.
    Humanism, yes. You did not refute my statement that "discoveries made in
    the physical realm can be used to modify beliefs held in the spiritual
    realm". Indeed, you cannot, for my example cannot be refuted, can it ? As
    far as priorities are concerned it is better to live an integrated and
    whole life based upon "truth" no matter where you find it.

    Message: 65701
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Peter on [V]ote
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 09:19:15

            Okay Peter, how would you word such a [V]ote?  I know if I word it,
    some users like B.D. might not [V]ote.   Seems I always leave some off the
    wall option out.

                            clif-

    Message: 65702
    Author: $ Roger Mann
    Category: Religion
    Subject: holy spirit
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 12:21:44

    Paul has brought up an interesting problem. When asked to show me that the
    Bible is the Word of God, he said that he believes it because the Holy
    Spirit has led him to believe. I believe that Paul is deluded. This leads
    to this poser: How do we tell if Paul is deluded ? If we were psychiatrists
    testing a person for mental illness, and that person said that they believed
    in an invisible being that tells them things, and when asked if that being
    was real, we would commit them to a mental institution. Why shouldn't Paul
    be committed ? He believes that the Holy Spirit is real and gives him faith
    to believe in all sorts of impossible things. Perhaps we should ask Paul for
    some proof (you know what I mean Cliff) that this invisible being really
    exists.

    Message: 65703
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 13:15:50

      On your first point you seem to have misunderstood what I said. On your
    second point you are saying that if we submit to an authoritarian
    dictatorship in the area of personal relationships some minor problems will
    be solved. That is much like saying if we had a total police state with 24hr
    surveilance (sic?) of everyone in the country there would be no crime. It
    may be true, but it is defininately not worth that price. In the real world,
    the ignorance fostered by trying to keep sex secret and dirty according to
    the wishes of the religious contributes greatly to these problems.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 65704
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Paul
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 13:27:31

      By referring to the religious view, meaning the view held by religious
    people, I did not in anyway exclude the possibility that that view might
    also be held by others. Understanding that, can you tell me how my statement
    was inaccurate? You and Bob both seem to have missed the meaning entirely.
    You assume that it had to be an exclusive view, although there was no
    provision to that effect, and Bob seems to have inverted the context. Did
    everyone else think I meant something else too, or just these two guys?
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 65705
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff L.
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 13:34:18

      It is too bad that your family was hurt by bad choices about drugs. You
    will notice that drug laws did not stop it, and probably never could. What
    drug laws do accomplish is to add violence and corruption to the
    self-inflicted misery of drug abuse. Destroying a whole culture in a failed
    attempt at keeping a minority of individuals from harming themselves is a
    horrible policy. Drug users themselves would be much better off without a
    drug war and that excuse for destroying one right guaranteed by the
    Constitution after another could be ended before we end up in a worse police
    state than Eastern Europe just overthrew.
      See You Later,
        Dean H.

    Message: 65706
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 14:13:34

    Re:  "but it is defininately not worth that price"

    I guess one could say there is a price to pay to be a Christian, but I
    believe it is more than worth it.  If I had to make the decision all over a
    again to become a Christian, I would grab it with all my strength.  You
    might call me a very satisfied user.

    Re:  "the ignorance fostered by trying to keep sex secret and dirty
    according to the wishes of the religious"

    Well, maybe you know some religious person who insists that sex is dirty and
    should be kept some kind of a secret, but I don't agree with that, and I
    can't find it in my Bible either.  Maybe you been talking to the wrong
    people.  I'm just trying to point out that I think you are not seeing the
    whole picture.  Actually I don't think you are looking at the picture I am
    looking at.  Jim Jones had a picture; it definitely was the wrong picture.
    There were a number of others who are looking at the wrong picture.

    Message: 65707
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 14:20:47

    Re:  "Bob seems to have inverted the context"

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and go back and read your original
    message.  But it seems you were blaming religion (or Christianity) for a lot
    of problems.  The reality is there would be no problems like AIDS at all if
    we were just to follow the 10 commands for example.  If I inverted your
    context, I apologize.  But when I perceive a distortion or error made
    against what I believe, I will usually speak up.  Sometimes not.  I have
    decided not to reply to certain persons on this BBS when they rant and rave
    against God and the Bible.

    See you later Dean!

    Message: 65708
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Reed Sea
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 16:15:57

    Paul, remember God's inerrant Word that we should honor and not twist around
    for our own doctrines? It is REED SEA in there. Red Sea is an error in
    translation. REED Sea, God said it, I believe it, Oceans don't "part." THat
    is superstitious magic. God is the same fellow who set up the Law of Gravity
    and would not break it our of Love for the Creation. When a doctrine and the
    Bible do not match, consider the need to change the doctrine, however
    cherished it is from our childhood or something. It was the Reed "Sea" which
    was a swampy region and the mud stuck the Pharoah's chariots until high
    tide. No mystery.

     .  _|_
     .   |
     .   |          Mike

    Message: 65709
    Author: Mike Middleton
    Category: Religion
    Subject: Logos theos
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 16:21:20

    Because developing Christianity need to compete with pagan religions who
    claimed the Logos theos was in their possession, so some documents and
    letters were "canonized" and anyone who didn't accept them as the Word of
    God was an enemy of the Catholic Church. So, one good reason to accept the
    Bible as verbally inspired is to keep the RCC from putting you on the rack
    as a heretic. Another one is if you are real lonely and find a group of
    people who will accept you and call you "brother" and pretend to care about
    you, if you buy into their doctrines and "God wrote the Bible" is one of
    those. Then you could have friends. There's the two big reasons people buy
    into the absurdity about the Bible's nature and authorship. As it is clear
    here, those same people don't have a clue what the Bible really says or
    means or how to live lives dedicated to the teachings it contains.

     .     /\\
     .    {@.@}
     .     )"(     Mike

    Message: 65710
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 17:03:34

      Maybe there wouldn't be any AIDS if everyone followed the ten
    commandments, but that is like saying that there wouldn't be any racial
    problems if{blacks were all enslaved or sent back to Africa. Imposing one
    group's set of arbitrary rules upon everyone because they say that those
    rules came from their God, (which many people do not agree with) is a
    solution worse than the problem. It works out just great for the satisfied
    user who buys into the rules, but the rest of the world   hasn't bought in
    and there is no justification for trying to force them to based on the
    Bible. Laws against fraud and coercion deal with human problems on a
    rational basis, and free the individual to prosper or suffer as best he can.
    Enforcing biblical law upon everyone, rather than the natural law (which
    includes the rational parts of biblical law anyway) is repugnant to all but
    the Christian (or it should be if it they aren't too apathetic to care).
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 65711
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Dean
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 18:07:31

            Just what Commandment is it that you don't like or find repugnant?

    Just curious....

                            clif-

    Message: 65712
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Politics
    Subject: Repugnant...
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 18:23:07

            Speaking of repugnant...  MLK DAY for the THIRD time. Now we have to
    honor this creep who was a womanizer and a Communist sympathizer.
    I disliked this person when he was alive, and I still dislike him when he is
    dead.   Might as well had Mofford raise the Hammer & Sickle over the State
    Capital.

            Why do they KEEP taking the right for the PEOPLE to vote on this
    issue away.  We got to go though collecting signatures on petitions all over
    again...in the HOT summer months of Phoenix.

                            clif-

    Message: 65713
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: last/MLK
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 22:59:33

    Martin Luther King, Jr. fought a much needed war without violence on his
    armies part.  I lived in New Orleans when he was doing his stuff and I found
    it deplorable that blacks could NOT sit in the front of the bus, had their
    own separate restaurants or a outside window where they had to order from,
    had their own drinking fountains, if any at all.

    I heard many times the whites calling black men old enough to be their grand
    father, BOY.  Boy, come here, do this, do that.

    I couldn't believe what I was seeing after having moved from Los Angeles
    where I resided for two years to the deep south.  I found the experience
    very interesting indeed.  It could have been done with a lot of violence and
    somehow I wouldn't have blamed them because of the way they were constantly
    being $hit upon.

    You don't see anyone calling for a Malcolm X day because that man taught
    that all whites were of the devil.  On the other hand MLK believed that all
    men were brothers of the same planet.

    For the sake of all blacks everywhere there should be a special day honoring
    a black person and of all of the blacks I can think of I choose MLK over the
    rest.  He even beats out all the black athletes.

    So what is a few woman here and there and believing that all are brothers??

    Message: 65714
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Holy Ghost
    Date: 05/16/90  Time: 23:04:38

    Roger, Paul has been trying to sick the HG on me since 1984.  He, according
    to him, has prayed for me time and again.  Something must be wrong
    somewhere.

    In the meanwhile I continue to raise a family of beautiful children
    (although they do tend to bite Christians) and run a good business.

    As you probably realize debating a Christian is akin to debating either a
    rock or a stuck record.

    It was recently pointed out to me that the only intelligent debates were
    from the days when the likes of James Taranto, Lippard, Cervelli, Ianuzzi
    and a few others debated with logic instead of referring to the same
    out-dated crappy, error ridden book.  No fun in there.

    Thanks to Dean Hathaways latest messages that there is logic on the board
    and I wish that Gordon Little hurries back, not to mention Zak.
                                    Rod

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