### Apollo BBS Archive - June 24, 1990

    Mail from Jeff Beck
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 04:25:37

    Ren or Chaffri?

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Okay, I'll try to figure what it means.  How long do I get?
     2:
     3:By the way, the word FAG instead of Flag was in my message on the main board
     4:was done on purpose.  An honest mistake, eh?
     5:
     6:Save a mouse, eat a pussy.

    Mail from Bill Burkett
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 06:34:24

            I let the exterminator's poison take care of the bugs.  In
    addition to destroying all that life, it probably shortens our
    own lives and contributes to the destruction of the planet.  All
    that for only $24 a quarter.  It's a steal!
            BTW, although you're, of course, full of shit on this whole
    topic (as with so many others), your writing has really improved!
    There were several very deft touches in one of your longer posts
    from Friday night or yesterday.  And without pissing anybody off.
    Imagine!
            Call before you come over, just to make sure we're here.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Thanks for the input.  Please give me your phone number again.
     2:
     3:You are correct about the 'bug spray'.  I have a friend who was a Truly
     4:Nolan employee for awhile.  The lawsuits those people get from pets dying
     5:are real.  If it is poison and affects bug, dogs, cats, etc. then we can be
     6:damn sure that it affects the human animal, to be sure.  We are doing
     7:ourselves in by a lot of different methods, aren't we?  -Roddy

    Mail from Bill Burkett
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 16:48:33

            My phone number:  242-xxxx.
            I prefer to think of our various methods of self-genocide as
    reflecting our ingenuity and diversity as a species.
    [A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

    Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
     1:Better not say too much more.  As you probably have noticed I used the
     2:amunition you gave me in mail.  Thanks for the tip about the bug spray.  It
     3:sure came in handy.
     4:
     5:The self-genocide is a nice one also.   -Rod

    Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

    Message: 66864
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: HOT!
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 14:45:52

            I went out to the Range (Ben Avery) and did an afternoon QC shoot.
    All I can say is, it was HOT!  And not the 'sqeaky clean' kind of hot
    either, but I am not allowed to tell you the kind of hot it was, so let your
    imagination run wild and then add 10 degrees to that!

            And I am the one who wanted to live in Arizona...  I need my head
    examined.

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    P.S.  My shooting was also HOT!   wink (-;

    Message: 66865
    Author: Randy Sanders
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: MyPoetry
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 16:54:23

    Tabori Awakens
    We reached across the Sunset
    Turning my Heart pale as Blue
    Our Fingers intertwined in the Distance
    Appeared as Dust beneath the somber Few
    Forty Monks called upon the Telephone wishing You ahead
    Behind your broken Veil brown Eyes shadowy camoflauged the Sun
    Rememberence of The Moments Laughter faded preceding the Lizard
    Aside Dome & Tail. You fell beneath the CLouds Waterbreaking
    and reached for Earths gentle Limbs/beneath the broken Shadows
    of Dawnslight desert Wheat boughed in waves of gentle Motion
    Earths darkly impaled original Sin began to Dawn upon your Face
    I passed behind The Monastery
    The sagging Roofs caved in upon us All
    Sheepskin, Sheepskin have You any Wool, sang the Lamb
    The Plow trods at Daybreak the Fast is broken at Noon
    We fell instride near the Baseline aware of the Droughts approaching
    Callousness. Cactus were formed from Heads all green bristiling There
    was a Pond/It was clear Black and Earth carpet Gold. In the Distance
    Forty Monks cheered You on/You as a Cameljockey I upon my deaf Swan.
      not previously published poetry I am not a member of the SIG yet.

    Message: 66866
    Author: Randy Sanders
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ed Sheridan
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 16:55:38

    Hey DEADHEAD I have a later version of ProComm 2.4.3. not the latest but
    give me a call sometime I will get in touch soon. bye

    Message: 66867
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/murder
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:08:11

            Rod, surely you are putting me on! I enjoy the joking, but even in
    jest to compare the slaughter of six million Jews to the slaughter of cattle
    for beef stretches the bounds of decency!
            Besides, we are discussing the ability to reason, which is the mark
    of the human as opposed to the animal.  Am I to presume that you are unable
    to reason, so you keep going back to the growling dog simile? Surely not!

    Message: 66868
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/heroism
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:12:02

            Here I am again, Rod.  Just for curiosity, WHY would you give your
    life to save a child, or to save another person. Would you also give it to
    save a dog? an ant? a tree? a spotted owl, or a squirrel?   --John C.--

    Message: 66869
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Darryl/66847
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:14:17

            Well said. Actually, GMAC probably thought they were doing the right
    thing to take him out from the remainder of the car payments.  Then they hit
    him with a deficiency balance judgment, and that made him mad.  --John C.--

    Message: 66870
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hans/Sex and Love
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:19:01

            A very good point, Hans--we don't really know for sure if dolphins
    can reflect.  Dolphins, the great apes, and some orangutans seem to be the
    closest animals we can find; closest to human intelligence, that is.  Apes
    have been taught to speak sign language, but they flunk the test of being
    able to reflect. Same with Orangs. Dolphins intrigue me, but most studies
    have been done by the U.S. Navy, and the results are to a degree secret, but
    they maintain that Dolphin intelligence is higher than dog or pig or ape,
    but still not "rational" e.g. able to reflect. But there remains doubt.
            --John C.--

    Message: 66871
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/intelligence
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:25:16

            Perhaps I have done a bloody poor job of examining the rest of
    creation, and maybe I dont have the intellectual capacity to grapple with
    this problem. In that event, may I ask for help?  I'm unable to find any
    species of animal (or plant or mineral) which is able to reflect and draw
    conclusions, which wears clothes other than for animal reasons, which writes
    books and reads them, which plans for the future and works the plans and
    changes them to fit changed circumstances, which uses computers, autos, and
    airplanes, and which can insult guys like me because I state a theory.
    Maybe you can educate me. Please, I hope this doesn't sound condescending or
    autocratic--I really would like some thoughts on this point.  --John C.--

    Message: 66872
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/66852
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:27:11

            See previous, okay? No, I'm not telepathic. Yes, I have observed
    dogs and I have read studies which cannot find reason there.

    Message: 66873
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/animals
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 19:31:13

            Rod, I never claimes "superiority' for the human, just "difference."
    Inferiority or superiority is another arguments for another time. I'm just
    stating that the human is essentially, or of essence, different from the
    animal. And one big factor is the ability to reflect.

    Message: 66874
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/God
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 20:23:18

    You better hope God's hard-drive crashes before judgment day.

    James>>>

    Message: 66875
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff/Rod/Ann/All
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 20:35:23

            Please, guys, don't pick on me any more just because I like people
    better than animals. Actually, I know some animals which I like better than
    some people I know.
            Rod, I cannot agree with your socialism, but I think you probably
    love your kids, even if you hate the flag and this country and this system.
    Hey, one out of three ain't bad, right?
            Jeff B. I'm sorry I'm unable to communicate to you what I'd like to
    discuss: the definition of humankind and how it is discernable.
            Ann, you're so damn sexy I can't argue with you any more than I
    could that time when Marilyn Monroe scratched my back and kissed my ear, and
    Sysop, eat your heart out!

    Message: 66876
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Mad Max/Homebrew
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 20:40:52

            Jeff L.--I visited Electronics Materials Recovery on 31st Ave and
    talked with Larry and with a very foxy gal in tee shirt named Deborah. They
    quoted me a bunch of good prices, but have NO used gear at all left, and if
    I want to build my XT with mono monitor and 20 meg hard drive, I'm up
    against $750.00. I can't hack that, but I might do it step by step--buy the
    case amd motherboard, and power supply, then next payday a disk drive and
    card, etc.  My hair is short, grey, and it stands straight up--think that
    had anything to do with the prices? Nah, can't be.  Probably I appreciated
    that tee shirt too much. Ah, well.         --John C.--

    Message: 66877
    Author: Ed Sheridan
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: recycling
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 21:38:49

    Instead of recycling everything if the corporations run out of aluminum and
    paper and plastic, maybe people will have to resort to a different
    lifestyle. Oh no!! NO more Beer and coke!

    Message: 66878
    Author: $ Daryl Westfall
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Ann/Buried Standing
    Date: 06/23/90  Time: 22:29:14

    That's the way the VA cemetery does it.

    Daryl
    (Ro 15:5-6)

    Message: 66879
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: graves
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 03:58:48

    In Japan land is such a scarce commodity that the dead who are not
    immediately cremated are buried only for a few years.  At that time, the
    remains are dug up and cremated, and the spot is used by a new body.
    Gruesome, but true.  The Japanese also think it's a big deal to stand on
    multi-level tiered buildings and drive balls out into a common space.
    Golf balls, that is.

    Message: 66880
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/intelligenc
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 04:15:38

    I don't know what you mean by "I'm unable to find any species of animal
    which is able to reflect and draw conclusions, which wears clothes other
    than for animal reasons."

    Am I to infer from this that you have found animal species which wear
    clothes for "animal reasons"?  What are animal reasons, anyway?  As for
    animal species which appear to draw conclusions and make inferences, I have
    already pointed out several, namely dogs, many primates, whales, etc.  Of
    course their inferences, reflections, and conclusions involve those things
    which are of importance to them, and perceivable to them, so it hardly
    follows that they would use their faculties to run computers or create
    civilizations.  They certainly plan for the future, but only in the limited
    manner of creatures whose prime activity is survival.  Of course, I have
    observed domesticated animals, who need not be overly concerned with mere
    survival, planning, or shall I say, anticipating, but here again, we are
    considering simple elements of simple lives; food, exercise, play,
    companionship, protection.  No one is asserting that animals come near our
    stage of development of the rational faculties, merely that such faculties
    are observably not uniquely human. That was your original contention, was it
    not?
    More importantly, by what arbitrary rule have you decided that the
    possession of rational faculties is the criterion for deciding who or what
    can be made to suffer for our benefit?

    Message: 66881
    Author: $ Jeff Beck
    Category: Answer!
    Subject: Cummings/reflection
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 04:21:45

    Obviously, you have never seen a dog moping around because his owner chewed
    him out an hour earlier, or one eagerly listening for the sound of his
    owner's footsteps, or one conniving to get food by stealing shoes, or one
    agitated and anxious over the mere prospect of a bath, or any number of
    other mundane behaviors which indicate some degree of reflection.  I have
    never, of course, observed a dog pondering the origin of the universe or the
    nature of the infinite, but these are not the sort of reflections one would
    expect a dog to entertain.

    Message: 66882
    Author: $ Steve MacGregor
    Category: On the Lighter Side
    Subject: Bumper Stickers
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 06:32:40

       I saw an amusing pair of bumber stickers on a car yesterday:

            KEEP ABORTION SAVE AND LEGAL

       and

            LOVE ANIMALS -- DON'T EAT THEM

       The owner should have a single one that expresses both attitudes
    simultaniously, to save space:

           KILL BABIES -- NOT ANIMALS

                                       =(O,o)=  Ouch!

    Message: 66883
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Vote
    Subject: Old Flag Vote
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 08:17:36

            Flag burning is a form of protest. The Flag is a SYMBOL of this
    nations freedom.  If they pass an 'Amendment', will we be as free and will
    the Flag (Stars and Stripes) mean as much?  Think about it, then [V]ote.

    [A] I am FOR an 'Amendment' to the Constitution to prevent the desecration
        of the 'Flag' by such things as 'Flag-Burning'.

    [B] I am AGAINST an 'Amendment' to the Constitution to prevent the
        desecration of the 'Flag' (for whatever reason)

    [C] I do not care one way or another... or I have no opinion.

    Poll results to date:
    [A] 7    [B] 21   [C] 2

    Any Ideas for a new [V]ote question or Poll?

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66884
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Daryl/standing up
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 08:45:36

    AW! All those poor vets standing up buried! Their knees must get tired. Is
    that any way to treat war heros?? (Grin) -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66885
    Author: $ Ann Oudin
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/animals
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 08:47:40

    Well, I can tell you about one animal that wears clothes - I have this
    little Pekingese that has quite a wardrobe - better than mine! His blood
    line is purer than mine too and his teeth are better! *Heh
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

    Message: 66886
    Author: $ Mike Carter
    Category: War!
    Subject: Cliff
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 11:51:06

    YEs.....it was you saying to me "At least I *CHOSE* to live in Arizona.."
    Just as I was leaving, the Pachmayers starting to melt off the grips
    and the ammo self-igniting in the boxes.
    "..I chose to live in Arizona."
    I said, GOD, DON'T JUDGE CLIFF NOW...JUST GIVE HIM AN IDEA OF WHAT HELL IS.

    Heh heh.

    Message: 66887
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 12:39:55

    Re:  "From what I've observed, other species seem to communicate just as
    well as humans to each other . . ."

    Oh yah?  I haven't seen any dogs log on Apollo lately.

    Oh, I forgot about B. Dog.

    Sorry B.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 66888
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 12:42:06

    Re:  "What female animal will turn up its nose at the placenta and eat a
    lunch meat sandwich and drink a glass of milk instead?"

    If you ever invite me over for lunch, I insist you tell me what you are
    planning to serve before I accept.

    :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

    Message: 66889
    Author: $ Bob Thornburg
    Category: News Today
    Subject: More on guns
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 12:48:34

    Did anyone catch the editorial on gun-control laws in Sunday's Republic by
    William P. Cheshire?  He's the Editor of the Editorial Pages.  He says
    "gun-control laws don't work" and explains why.  Sort of on the side, he
    points out that the Orlando police had trained 2,500 women in the use of
    firearms in response to an epidemic of rapes.  One year later, rape in
    Orlando dropped by 88%.  It was the only major American city where rape
    declined that year.  Interesting, don't you think.

    Message: 66890
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dear John, again
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 13:47:25

    Oh I see, the human animal is the only animal that can reason.  Isn't that
    stretching it a bit far?

    It does look like the human reasoning leaves a lot to be desired.  You
    probably have your house sprayed for bugs each month.  You are killing them
    but leaving dead critters in your walls plus the poison buildup that your
    house experiences is cutting into your, and your neighbor's health.  Poison
    is poison no matter how you look at it.

    When is the last time you took a flame thrower to your house in order to
    neutralize it?

    I do not see any extra reasoning ability between the human animal or any
    other animal.  Maybe you can fill me in.
                                    Thanks,
                                     Rod

    Message: 66891
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Hey John
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 13:57:39

    If I saw a dog, tree or child in a dangerous situation, one that would cause
    it permanent harm then I would take steps to help them out.

    If I messed up and died in the process then that is my own stupid fault.
    No, I would not give up this particular life in exchange for the above
    mentioned unless there was a good reason.  As said before, life is really
    cheap and dying is no big thing.  In a hundred of our years everyone you now
    know will be dead so what is a few miliseconds in eternity.  Nothing John,
    nothing.

    If you wish you can change that last sentence to 120 years.

    I had a friend who was dying of cancer of the liver.  He wanted to live to
    the last possible second even though there was a great deal of suffering on
    his and his families part.  If he had committed suicide then he would have
    saved everyone.

    I used my reasoning on him but he elected instead to shoot morphine in place
    of soon to be death.  A million of our years is still nothing in eternity,
    nothing at all.  Think of all life that dies in such a very short period.

    And as to the cows, just ask any cow its opinion and they would think of the
    six million as a drop in the bucket compared to their collective numbers who
    have gone before as slaves.       -Rod

    Message: 66892
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/Question
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 14:00:33

    Are you saying that a dog, cat, dolphin or any other species of animal does
    not have as much right to live on this planet as the human animal?

    Are you saying the human has more rights or is better?

    Message: 66893
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: James White
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 14:01:04

    But I can whip that wimp.

    Message: 66894
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 14:11:43

    Dear John......yes, the human animal does wear clothes.  And you know what
    John......please give this some thought, okay?  The taking up of wearing
    clothing over our bodies was undoubtable one of the biggest errors that we
    have made.

    Look at the dog or cat for instance.  Let us say that we took a family of
    them and dressed them up in clothes, complete with hat.  Since they have
    shorter life spans than humans we could see results in a shorter period.

    The net result after ten or so generations would be that these animals would
    lose their NATURAL ability to insulate themselves.  Now, take these families
    and put them out into the summer sun or the winter cold and watch them dive
    for artificial means to survive.

    This is exactly what humans have done to themselves.  We are, in essence,
    turtles without shells.

    When a dog or cat goes camping they need not take anything.  Their natural
    clothing protects them from all elements, save for fire.  Humans gave this
    ability up and now is paying a dear price.

    If our early and fairly ignorant ancestors had elected to let nature protect
    him instead of cutting open a bear or deer and climbing inside then the
    health and strength of todays species of human would be much stronger.

    Message: 66895
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Sanders, Randy
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 14:20:38

    I'll just bet the name of that poem was "Forty Monks".

    Message: 66896
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Question?
    Subject: Bob
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 14:22:17

    You you  be interested in coming over for dinner somewhere in the
    neighborhood of July 8, this year?

    We're have this really beautiful brisket of beef.

    Message: 66897
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Human animal
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 15:07:54

            Rod, you have your facts a little screwed up...  but anyway, YES,
    the human animal (as you call it) does have more rights... We have a better
    brain, we can REASON, thus we are stronger.  Note however, that does not
    mean I run around killing everything for the sake of killing.  But realize
    now that even other animals do kill to eat and survive.  It is a world where
    you either 'eat' or 'be eaten'.  Even  plants are alive, so what is one to
    do?

            Let the cats and dogs live, let the dolphins swim free...but MAN
    rules the earth.  (and that is why it is getting screwed up)

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66898
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Jeff B/reflection
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 15:37:15

            Why would one not expect a dog to entertain those notions?  I submit
    because the dog is ESSENTIALLY different from man.  There is a difference of
    kind, noit just of degree, between dogs' "feelings" and human
    intellectualization.  If we don't agree on this point, e.g., if you maintain
    that the difference between man and beast is simply one of degree, not kind,
    then we have reached an impasse.  However, I might point out that your
    argument is a variation on Nietzsche's, the one Hitler used to declare
    Uebermensch, or the master race.  Mine is that we must respect human life
    over and above our respect for all life. This is not an argument of
    superiority, simply one of essential difference.    --John C.--

    Message: 66899
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Steve/Bumper sticker
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 15:39:19

            I like the one:
                    SAVE A JOJOBA BUSH -- KILL A WHALE

    Message: 66900
    Author: $ John Cummings
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/clothes
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 15:46:57

            You argue that man took to wearing clothes, and thus, as a result,
    lost an ability to live without clothes. Your argument requires A PRIORI the
    assumption that man would have continued without clothes. But I suggest that
    as the ice ages advanced, man would have perished without the skin of the
    deer or bear. Clothing, then, was the RESULT of the forces on man, not the
    cause of the changes in man.   --John C.--

    Message: 66901
    Author: $ James White
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 16:39:57

    Yeah, you've been saying that for years--at max, you've got about 50 years
    to go before you find out for certain.

    James>>>

    Message: 66902
    Author: Randy Sanders
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: mypoem
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 17:47:27

    Hey Dude did You read that?
    I wrote that one a Lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnng Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiime ago
    o well at least now I know someome is Out There. bye -r

    Message: 66904
    Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
    Category: War!
    Subject: Mike Carter
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 18:31:23

            Your five hundred and one rounds of 9mm 115 grain FMJ 'plinkers'
    is ready... you limp eared, FANGless wimp!

    *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif-

    Message: 66905
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Politics
    Subject: IRS
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 22:29:34

       Today's Arizona Republic contains a story by Frank Lalli, entitled
    "Death and taxes: Fight with IRS leads to suicide". It reports that
    Alex and Kay Council had a $70,000 deduction for an art-lithograph
    tax shelter disallowed by the IRS on their 1979 tax return, and that
    the agency's subsequent handling of their case led to Alex's suicide
    in June, 1988.
       The Councils were audited for 1979 and told that the tax shelter
    would be not be allowed, meaning that they would receive a notice of
    additional taxes due. The IRS then made a typographical error which
    caused all notices of the adjustment to be sent to the wrong address
    for more than three years. By the time the Councils were finally
    notified, the statute of limitations on their tax assessment had already
    expired. Nonetheless, the IRS had added interest and penalties to the
    bill and were now demanding $183,000.
       The couple spent years entangled in the IRS's administrative web,
    trying to get the agency to release the documents which would prove
    that it did not notify the Councils in time for them to pay the original
    amount, or even notify them within the statutory limit. The only result
    was that the time wasted let the agency's demand rise to nearly $300,000.

       In 1987 the Councils took the IRS to U.S. District Court. By this
    time Alex Council was bankrupt, facing the loss of his home and
    business, and could no longer afford an attorney. While he stood
    ruined and running out of time, the IRS was granted an additional
    delay to gather evidence against him. Council came to the conclusion
    that he would not get a fair hearing while he was alive.
       On the evening of June 9, 1988 Kay arrived home to find this note:
    "My dearest Kay - I have taken my life in order to provide capital
    for you. The IRS and its liens, which have been taken against our
    property illegally by a runaway agency of our government, have dried
    up all sources of credit for us. So I have made the only decision I
    can. It's purely a business decision. I hope you can understand that.
    - I love you completely. Alex." A postscript said she could find his
    body on the northern side of the house. He had shot himself earlier
    that evening after leaving the note and a 45 minute tape recording.
       Kay is quoted as saying "I couldn't move, I kept thinking, 'Where
    the hell is the north side of the house?' I didn't know. If I had
    gone and found him then, I probably would have shot myself."

       The death of Alex, who had been an accountant and a small real
    estate developer, brought $250,000 in insurance money to Kay and
    their four children. His instructions led her to use the money to sue
    the IRS, and that suit uncovered the proof of IRS negligence which
    they had refused to divulge for all those years. District Judge Frank
    Bullock ruled that the tax code, "does not place upon plaintiffs the
    burden of hounding the IRS for delivery of a possible notice of
    deficiency." He voided the $289,282 tax bill and the agency's lien
    against their home. He also awarded Kay the maximum allowable award
    for legal fees, $27,971.
       In interviews, IRS commissioner Fred Goldberg has been asked why
    the IRS refuses to apologize for the Council affair. His reply, "We
    do apologize - when we think the taxpayer deserves one".

       There are several lessons here. A: The IRS's internal kangaroo
    courts and administrative officers are there to serve the IRS and no
    one else. They are not to be confused with the courts of the judicial
    branch; they are not to be confused with impartial justice; and they
    are to be avoided at all costs. B: If the IRS drives you to shoot
    yourself, be sure to load only one round, so as not to provide a
    ready means of suicide for a loved one who might be grief stricken at
    finding your body. C: After your death, don't expect any sympathy
    from the IRS. After all, earning money and wanting to keep it is a
    very serious crime. See You Later, Dean H.

    Message: 66908
    Author: $ Dean Hathaway
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Rod/Animals
    Date: 06/24/90  Time: 22:54:49

       There is a difference between perceptual knowledge, which men and animals
    gain by perceiving a thing, and conceptual knowledge, which only man can use
    as far as we know. The dog can see and smell a shoe and recognize it from
    previous experience. The man can do this, but he can also separate the
    concept of shoe-ness from the shoe and see it as an abstract. He can
    differentiate it from every other class of thing in his mind. He can design
    and build a shoe, or communicate his need for a shoe using that conceptual
    knowledge. Language depends on conceptual knowledge to rise above a very
    simple level. Words often stand in for concepts rather than concrete
    perceptions in human speech.
       Rights are conceptual. A creature which can neither entertain nor
    communicate the concept of gaining a right by granting it to others can only
    have such 'rights' as are bestowed upon it as a gift by those who are in a
    position to do it harm. That makes it not a right, but a priviledge. There
    are reasons not to harm other creatures for nothing, but there is only a
    right involved if harming it would violate someone's property right in it or
    otherwise violate the rights of some other person.
       See You Later,
          Dean H.

    Message: 66909
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: John/Clothes
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 00:09:06

    No, I had already considered that.  If man hadn't been paranoid and afraid
    of freezing to death then humans today would have thick coats much like the
    Polar Bears.  We would be better off in many ways.  One is that we would be
    more healthy and more comfortable.

    True, not as many would have survived the bitter cold but the few that did
    would have done our species a service, in the long run.  Now man is
    basically much weaker than he normally would be.  The sun bakes us and the
    cold makes us shiver.  We need rain gear and all sorts of other stuff that
    is more or less unconfortable.

    The human animal would be a beautiful sight today with our long hair and we
    would all have our own distinctive look.  Of course the woman and some men
    would continue to visit their beautician for a hair-do and manicure.

    But we have lost many benefits and must pay the price.  Of course it is
    quite reversable but would take a few centuries.

    The next time you feel like you are baking then thank your ancestors.

    The human animal is a sad race indeed.

    Message: 66910
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Dean/species
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 00:23:11

    I don't believe that man has garnered enough knowledge to be sure about the
    brain and life force of other species of animal.

    True, there are many apparent differences but who is to say that the cat for
    instance is a lower species in any way.  Mother cats give birth, protect
    their young at all costs, teaches them how to survive, etc.

    But we as a race do not fully understand exactly what it is they feel.  I am
    debating on behalf of all life forms even though I of course do not know for
    certain.

    I just do not feel superior to any other animal because all of us strike
    down and eat the flesh of just about anything that moves.  I think humans
    have less to be proud of, as a whole, than say the cat family.  We had
    Hitler and his ilk, Marx, and of course the Inquisition among other things.

    The cats of the world as well as most all other species did not evolve like
    the human animal but our roots may have been basically the same with many
    branches.  These branches of life came about in order to allow a life form
    to survive a particular set of circumstances that was in their immediate
    environment.

    Humans as well as all other species are not by a long shot finished
    evolving.  We would appear quite primitive as well as ugly to our
    ancestors of say 10,000 earth years from now.  What is to say that during
    what remains of the history of this planet that a species, in order to
    survive will develop intricate hands and brains as we did?

    And what about the Dolphins and other sea creatures?  They evolved to state
    of the art beings in order to survive the water.  Perhaps they were our
    distant cousins that stayed in the sea.  Perhaps also they have more
    happiness than humans, save for oil spills and large explosions.  WWII must
    have been hell for them.

    And the birds of the air are just what I would want to be except it probably
    is difficult to find a good breath of fresh air, thanks to humans.

    Humans, in their superior ignorance are messing this planet up for all
    species of plant and animals.

    If we had our natural insulation in the form of hair we could do without
    energy draw for heating and cooling, washer and drier and a few other things
    I haven't thought of.

    In any case, I would like to be a bird where no boundaries, flags, systems,
    IRS, or clothing existed.
                                             Rod

    Message: 66912
    Author: $ Rod Williams
    Category: Chit Chat
    Subject: Yup.
    Date: 06/25/90  Time: 00:34:47

    Life is cheap and it's easy to die.

                            Peace and Love,
                               Rod

Content of this site is © Mark Firestone or whomever wrote it. All rights reserved.