;Date      14 Oct 92  14:52:26
From:      Paul Schencke@1:135/340
To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
Subject:   hi
Options:   private 
;Status:   recv'd (read 2 times)
;FLAGS IMM
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 > Tom:

 > Policy4 is pretty specific about not routing encrypted
 > messages thru an intermediate system without prior
 > approval.  This message is returned and will not be
 > delivered.  Please discontinue sending such messages.

 > Scott Samet

Sorry about that Tom. I just cannot understand what all this
fuss is about. I would think that encrypting messages would take all legal 
obligations off the intermediate system, assuming that something illegal was 
being said in such messages, and that's not the case anyway. 

I have apologosed to Mr. Samet just to make sure.

In the future, just make any replies a HOLD and I normally pick up fidonews 
once a week from you, so I would get any messages in a fairly quick manner, or 
you may send them thru Chris Baker(1:374/14),assuming that a link to him is 
available to you. I poll his system for mail almost daily anyway. 

My NEC (1:135/41) participates in that voluntary routing scheme that uses the 
BACKBONE, but I believe he feels the same way as Mr.Samet as far as encrypted 
mail goes. 

You know, this is really a shame, because people should really be cooperating 
to ensure other people's privacy. It seems to me, that this is the same group 
of people that later complain when their rights have been eroded , to the 
extent that they notice in their every day affairs. 

For the life of me, I fail to see what is so damaging about privacy to these 
people.

For your use, I have enclosed in the next block my complete public key ring.

Paul Schencke

ps. Please keep this message between us, I have no intention to upset the 
local bosses for now. 

-P
;MSGID: 1:135/340@fidonet.org 900e5973
;REPLY: 1:135/990 90060828
;PID: FM 2.02
;Date      14 Oct 92  13:03:30
From:      Tom Jennings@1:125/111
To:        Paul Schencke@1:135/340
Subject:   re: hi
Options:   kill-sent private 
;Status:   (read 2 times)
;INTL 1:135/340 1:125/111
;PID ReadMail
;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADC1AA2
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 PS>  > delivered.  Please discontinue sending such messages.
 PS> 
 PS>  > Scott Samet
 

Policy 4 benefits noone but /0's. 

It also is quite clear that the NEC (I assume) is rummaging through
people's mail. I would like to make a big deal of this. Unless you
object, I'd like to use your message, but I will remove all
references to your name, node number and anything else you think will
identify you. If you think even this is too much exposure, please say
so. I won't do anything until you msg me back.


It would be nice though if you would inform PUBLIC_KEYS of this...
it's exactly what this is all about. Freedom doesn't come to the
meek... it must be worked for at every step.


 PS> fuss is about. I would think that encrypting messages 
 PS> would take all legal obligations off the intermediate 
 PS> system, assuming that something illegal was being said in 
 PS> such messages, and that's not the case anyway. 

This is the crux of carrier vs. publisher status for in-transit
email. 


 PS> You know, this is really a shame, because people should 
 PS> really be cooperating to ensure other people's privacy. 
 PS> It seems to me, that this is the same group of people 
 PS> that later complain when their rights have been eroded , 
 PS> to the extent that they notice in their every day 
 PS> affairs. 
 PS> 
 PS> For the life of me, I fail to see what is so damaging 
 PS> about privacy to these people. 

It's not harmful, it's like assuming tht letters in envelopes are
hiding something. Prior restraint. If we were doing something
illegal, there are laws and systems to deal with this. Sysops ain't
cops. 


 * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111)
;Date      15 Oct 92  12:24:56
From:      Tom Jennings@1:125/111
To:        Paul Schencke@1:135/340
Subject:   re: hi
Options:   kill-sent private 
;Status:   (read 1 times)
;INTL 1:135/340 1:125/111
;PID ReadMail
;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADD6318
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
This message is not encrypted. It is private, host-routed email. It is
signed with my PGP private key, and may be decoded by anyone with my
public key, contained below.

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.0

mQBNAirHIV8AAAECAOE6hyvBZUslVOgi12u6d7/6yMIXX4aKIRcfV3wa/ysHl+ul
d4agC1YW+YimYeA+/bXOBxH/Y/KRzT/tLvUlcRcABRG0MVRvbSBKZW5uaW5ncyA8
dG9takBmaWRvc3cuZmlkb25ldC5vcmcsIDE6MTI1LzExMT4=
=dADc
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.0
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=nc7K
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

 * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111)
;Date      14 Oct 92 06:05:26
From:      Scott Samet@1:135/990
To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
Subject:   hi
Options:   kill-sent private 
;Status:   recv'd (read 3 times)
;MSGID: 1:135/990 90060827
;PID: FM+ 2.1
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 * Original to: Tom Jennings (1:125/111)

cc: Paul Schencke

Tom:

Policy4 is pretty specific about not routing encrypted messages thru an 
intermediate system without prior approval.  This message is returned and will 
not be delivered.  Please discontinue sending such messages. 

Scott Samet

 > -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
 > Version: 2.0

 > hIwCH8u5b+eWBQEBA/46BQNg1YG86Nc5jaUDbIVQgRRUrd0Aqh8aCyGPXs4YnaCs
 > Wl5r1LeOEekeVklphoHrNLvOkg887wYxNIXFJ0ksbl6JnhS9XLjus11vCwUd52NZ
 > 5wSutkt70/mztxP8FOG5PRnMgl9e7FzX8to3yZ6OurXNERI9hoH885drKAPveqYA
 > AAGFUKfAh+Dosg4ky2FCVHS7RXnp6Ra4JUydDNYJsbwKkUYNVMAocKQDda8tV2Mv
 > H/Zug5rvuGJYvj7wFEvqnx59XWl06h1g7gVoVnwbEsBdg/eOFSY6jhzwXpwwWhXe
 > t99od4yUXhh7hpaJkWV8dvqO4qm42qOjPQit3hc7XaD3Un8gPfhcF3ksNkllQ3Xm
 > 9ZRXDvF7VC3GZXzPGTlUBUyXYPXZ1PhjLLJKFu9kldSFmezMHnnarZkxsKQI2p52
 > XvwdcyWh+proxJNVlORRtG6Swq8aLeB0pYk5Mhj41XezbrHIBWyE8KTHwypxRwgb
 > bbcVg0rUooVyvXfx4D4h6wIx9UMvDpAQ2mnA9OeqBEYEqmcaeovG0sBMXJHCaZfl
 > ihKO+CWFFU1Ij6wRlkpNe43qkv7lchq8U/wUhRQ6zAwhGnxHZWKM8eYMOSUJM3ZN
 > zraA4MyJzbXHiYhgUhY5RBQVipTi8Lld3AbyssGAK+EMMoNyJJq1dlkikq1MNyWx
 > 7EIExxKVP5k=
 > =4QJK
 > -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

 >  * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/
 > 111)
;Via FrontDoor 1:135/41, Oct 14 1992 at 22:32
;Via QM 1:151/1003, Wed Oct 14 23:20 (v1.30)
;Via MsgTrack+ 1:13/13@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 06:04 UTC
;Via QM 1:13/13, Thu Oct 15 06:05 UTC (v1.26/a03)
;Via MsgTrack+ 1:396/1@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:04 UTC
;Via Squish/386 1.10 BETA/3 1:396/1.0, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:09 UTC
;Via MsgTrack 1:203/23@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 05:12
;Via Squish 1:203/23.0, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:12 UTC
;Via MsgTrack 1:125/125@fidonet, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 02:23 UTC
;Via Squish 1:125/125.0, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 02:24 UTC
;Via Squish 1:125/33.0, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 03:20 UTC
;Date      16 Oct 92  00:38:39
From:      Tom Jennings@1:125/111
To:        Marcos Della@1:125/180
Subject:   re: Thanks!
Options:   kill-sent private 
;Status:   (read 2 times)
;INTL 1:125/180 1:125/111
;PID ReadMail
;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADE0F10
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 MD> How goes the PGP debates?  Also, think I should work on 
 MD> the depository issure more or just drop it? 


Hey, go ahead, I think we need key repositories. I'm just opposed to
centralization, in general, but specifically here. I think our needs
are not that stringent IN GENERAL. Redundancy solves problems, and
the neural-net of human social structures will solve detected
problems, if the underlying mini-bureaucracies don't prevent them. 

I think relaxing errors (duplicate keys) to "excuse me I think you
made a mistake" (eg. assume that someone screwed up when an identical
ID appears, rather than assuming it's intentional (even if it is!)),
an askance approach, works better. What we're doing is making a social
structure explicit, the behind the scenes way we do business ("OK,
I'll introduce you to so and so, tell 'em I sent you", at a meeting,
you pull someone back a few paces and explain or make deals, etc, that
is how things *really* work. Even screwed up companies can make good
stuff, and we all know the MBA types can organize things into the
ground. Hell, if bureaucracy was the solvent, Ford would be selling
cars, and the FidoNet would have halted from lack of interest. 

New problems, new approaches... my guess is, after the enthusiasm
dies, and everyone's sick of colliding keys and confusion, a few
different repositories, possibly taking different approaches but
sharing verified keyrings, will be used, and the keys you keep on hand
will be relatively few. Gettting to that point however won't be the
obvious path. Change happens one miserable step at a time, and along
the way ya gotta make sure the Shits don't get their hands on things.
By establish openness and trust as the coin o fthe realm, the
bastards who work by conniving (lots of *Cs, for instance) can't work
so well. Those things work best in the dark. 

Notice just who it is in FIdoNet that hates all this. They always
seem to have a /0 on their address somewhere. Coincidence?!



--- ReadMail
 * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111)
;Date      17 Oct 92 06:17:46
From:      Scott Samet@1:135/990
To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
Subject:   hi
Options:   kill-sent private 
;Status:   recv'd (read 2 times)
;MSGID: 1:135/990 91863920
;PID: FM+ 2.1
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 > This message is not encrypted. It is private, host-routed email. It
 > is
 > signed with my PGP private key, and may be decoded by anyone with my
 > public key, contained below.

I'm sorry Tom, but it cannot be read by anyone with your public key.  They 
also need to have and install special software that's not part of the minimum 
FTS-001 coimpliant software set required for all Fidonet systems. 

I respectfully decline to pass this traffic thru my system, and I'm returning 
it.

If you wish to send plain-text messages, so that I can verify that they comply 
with Policy4 requirements regarding illegal and commercial traffic, they will 
be delivered without problems. ;Via FrontDoor 1:135/41, Oct 17 1992 at 22:36 
;Via QM 1:151/1003, Sat Oct 17 23:28 (v1.30) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:13/13@fidonet, 
Sun Oct 18 1992 at 07:29 UTC ;Via QM 1:13/13, Sun Oct 18 07:29 UTC 
(v1.26/a03) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:396/1@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 09:39 UTC 
;Via Squish/386 1.10 BETA/3 1:396/1.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 09:58 UTC ;Via 
MsgTrack 1:203/23@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 04:41 ;Via Squish 1:203/23.0, 
Sun Oct 18 1992 at 08:41 UTC ;Via MsgTrack 1:125/125@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 
at 13:33 UTC ;Via Squish 1:125/125.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 13:33 UTC ;Via 
TrackM  1:125/33.0@fidonet.org Sun 18 Oct 1992 09:34 ;Via Squish 1:125/33.0, 
Sun Oct 18 1992 at 16:34 UTC
;Date      19 Oct 92  01:11:34
From:      Tom Jennings@1:125/111
To:        scot samet@1:135/990
Subject:   Your killing of messages
Options:   kill-sent 
;Status:   IN-TRANSIT (read 3 times)
;INTL 1:135/990 1:125/111
;PID ReadMail
;MSGID RM1:125/111=2AE20B46
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
Please be advised that your activities may be illegal under the ECPA.
I'm going to persue this. It's my opinion you're overstepping your
bounds in even patrolling email.

--- ReadMail
 * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111)
;Date      21 Oct 92  06:48:55
From:      Scott Samet@1:135/990
To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
Subject:   Your killing of messages
Options:   private 
;Status:   recv'd (read 2 times)
;MSGID: 1:135/990 93867f2d
;PID: FM+ 2.1
;FLAGS DIR
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 > Please be advised that your activities may be illegal under the ECPA.
 > I'm going to persue this. It's my opinion you're overstepping your
 > bounds in even patrolling email.

No mail has been killed. It's been returned as undeliverable because it fails 
to meet the requirements set forth in Policy4 for transmission. 

Policy4 clearly states that Fidonet mail is not private mail as defined under 
the law, that routing nodes have the right to review mail for illegal and 
commercial content, and that mail not be encrypted without approval of the 
nodes it's routed thru. 

As far as I'm concerned, your unauthorized transmission of encrypted mail thru 
my system is an unauthorized use of my computer, and a violation of Florida's 
Computer Crimes Laws. 
;Date      20 Oct 92 23:29:00
From:      Paul Schencke@1:125/180
To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
Subject:   net host meddling
Options:   
;Status:   recv'd (read 2 times)
;MSGID: 1:135/340@fidonet.org 931758c0
;PID: FM 2.02
>----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------<
 > I am going to persue this. I believe killing in-
 > transit messages is
 > illegal according to the ECPA, and I've informed the
 > net host of both
 > of these things.

 > ;Date      19 Oct 92  01:00:41
 > From:      Scott Samet@1:135/990
 > To:        Tom Jennings@1:125/111
 > Subject:   hi
 > Options:   kill-sent private
 > ;Status:   recv'd (read 2 times)

Well, at this point it's kinda useless. Mr. Samet has informed the NET today 
that he quits his job as NC and to hold elctions pronto! 

I dunno if this had anything to do with it, but he seems to be a very tired 
man (tired of it all, I guess). 

In any case, I bet you some floppies this will not be the last time we see 
such a case. 

-P

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Out Of Bounds!, Hialeah, FL (1:135/340)
SEEN-BY: 100/520 102/890 105/36 125/111 125 180 185 135/71 340 163/438 170/109
SEEN-BY: 216/21 234/1 253/513 261/1136 285/27 312/2 374/14 26 48 98 377/14
SEEN-BY: 396/1 2200/101
;PATH: 135/340 374/14 125/180

