
              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 4  Num. 84
             ======================================
                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")
 
 
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INTERVIEW WITH DEBRA VON TRAPP
By Sherman H. Skolnick
(Transcribed by Brian Francis Redman)
 
[Preliminary note: Mr. Skolnick is scheduled to appear on *Radio 
Free America*, 5.065 MHz, 9 pm cst, on Monday, May 8, 1995. He 
will be discussing, among other things, what he has learned about 
the tragic Oklahoma City bombing.]
 
I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or 
portions of the following.
 
 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
 
[Mr. Skolnick first speaks briefly to Conspiracy Nation, then re- 
plays his tape recording of his May 5th, 1995 interview with Ms. 
von Trapp.]
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I had sent some faxes of some of our stories to Debra von Trapp. 
And she's with Trapp Technologies. And she called me, Friday 
evening, May 5th, 1995. And I told her I would like to tape a 
lengthy interview with her, to use on whatever media I could get 
it on -- whether on a radio show, or elsewhere.
 
And so, this is the interview and discussion that I had with her.
 
I may pause, from time to time, to -- well, I may have to go 
back, in fact, and look in our file and spell some of the names 
that are mentioned here, that are complicated. We've got some 
backup documents (news stories and so on, that support her story) 
with complicated names from where she used to work.
 
But I'll begin the interview right now. You ready?
 
 
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah. It's goin'.
 
======= START OF MR. SKOLNICK'S INTERVIEW WITH VON TRAPP =======
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What I wanted to find out first are some of the details; why you 
believe these things have been happening.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
You mean which points?
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, as I understand... Well, the point is, you have been a 
high-level technical expert, sort of on the cutting edge of high 
technology. Am I correct?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In the computer field, and you've done work, apparently, 
worldwide.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In the course of your work, you found out certain things, such as 
that some companies were actually committing espionage and so on?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. As an outside consultant to Xerox Corporation, I was 
selecting foreign management for a division called Shugart back 
in the early '80s in Germany, when I discovered that the Shugart 
division of Xerox was, in fact, bringing disk drives -- which 
were manufactured by [Matshusta(?)] in Japan -- they were 
manufactured there, brought into Sunnyvale, California, labeled 
for Shugart, and then sent to the Shugart Munich facility in 
Germany, where, after having been received under Cocomm(?) 
freight documents (which were legally forwarded in the U.S.), the 
freight documents were then changed to show that they were 
forwarded to destinations at Olivetti, Italy and a company in 
France (which were legal trading partners of the U.S.) when, in 
fact, the sales records were being changed and ultimately 
destroyed by the Shugart employees -- allegedly, for tax evasion 
purposes. But, in fact, the [disk] drives were being put on 
trucks and sent into the East Bloc, to an entity called 
IsoTempex(sp?); they were selling to the KGB.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, this was early in the '80s, when it was really 
quite unlawful for American companies to be sending hard disk 
drives to the Eastern Bloc, am I correct?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct.
 
And at the same time, Xerox Corporation was, in fact, conducting 
CIA training camp at its Leesburg, Virginia facility.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So some of the big companies in America have been into East-West 
espionage.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. In fact, Aldrich Ames was the chief of Russian counter- 
intelligence at the time. And "Rick" Ames and a director of 
operations at Xerox/CIA (which was Daniel Starkey), he and Ames 
and a few senior officials, both at Xerox and the CIA, were 
pocketing the cash out of that operation.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, there's some angles of the Aldrich Ames spy 
scandal that the, has not come out, which you're just mentioning 
now.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. But in fact, that all connects forward to what we're 
looking at today: with some of the same team of people out of CIA 
and FBI... Ultimately, that were involved with *all* of these 
folks.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, that the Aldrich Ames scandal, they haven't gone 
into *this*; there's a lot to it yet, in other words.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell me this: in the process of learning about this, this type of 
thing, I understand that you became knowledgeable about the fact 
that the Japanese have been spying on the Clinton White House. Is 
that correct?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct. But it wasn't outside knowledge; I was inside 
that operation. Some of the same people that came out of that 
Xerox/"Rick" Ames scenario in the early '80s then transitioned... 
There's a specific person, Robert Goetzman, who is a high-ranking 
FBI official, who has what is known as "dual agency" -- he 
operates, also, out of the CIA -- and had a heavy relationship 
with Daniel Starkey out at Xerox.
 
When I had, ultimately, decided to go to the FBI over what I knew 
about Xerox and then discovered that that investigation had been 
completely closed. And then I was ultimately threatened -- both 
myself and my son -- by Xerox officials and their outside 
counsel. When they failed to intimidate me, and I had actually 
ended up in litigation with them.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, I noticed some of the stories from '91 and '92 about your 
litigation with Xerox.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That actually went up through this year. We were still in federal 
court, as of last year, over that.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, some of these things have been a matter of 
court record, but are not too well-known to the public.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's right. And actually, we have *substantial* court records, 
between myself and MCA, Mitsubishi, and Xerox, at different times 
while they've tried to insure that I wouldn't discuss this with 
any of the mainstream media or have the public become 
knowledgeable about it.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So you are of the opinion that, from what you know, that there's 
a tremendous fight between the Washington government and the 
Tokyo government -- sort of a financial fight, having to do with 
the Yen/Dollar ratio, and so on?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And that's derivative of the fact that Robert Goetzman, when 
he approached me on behalf of Xerox in 1991 to dissuade me, by 
threat, to get out of court with them, he did not identify 
himself as FBI. He introduced himself as being from the Executive 
Office of the President, under Mr. Bush. And ultimately, [he] 
persuaded me, by threat, as a trade-off to not having my son 
killed, to cooperate with them in introductions to CEOs and 
chairmen within the computer industry to be able to view their, 
what we would know as their "black hole technology", which was 
technology and development that was very advanced, that was not 
released to the public and was well-ahead of the government 
developments in various projects, in many cases. And that 
introduction, and that project that we were on, was actually a 
national network surveillance project that was partially based 
out of an Air Force base in Alabama, and was related to the 
officers from the Air Force that were in the downed aircraft in 
Alabama, two days before the Oklahoma...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. In other words, a day-and-a-half before, on Monday, April 
17th, 1995, there was a high-level military group on a military 
Lear Jet, that crashed -- apparently... Well, the story in the 
press said that they were on their way from Andrews Air Force 
Base to San Antonio. But, apparently, the plane blew up, or 
something happened to it, as they were over Alabama.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. Because the same, the Special Ops team that was under 
Goetzman, contracted by he and his team, and paid for with 
Japanese government funds through MCA Universal and administered 
through the Embassy of Japan, in Washington... Some members of a 
Special Ops team out of Alabama are responsible -- both for the 
downing of that craft, and for taking down the Oklahoma federal 
building.
 
                   [...to be continued...]
 
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et 
  pauperem.                    -- Liber Proverbiorum  XXXI: 8-9 

