                                        _
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          _____________       _/_/     | | \ \          _/_/     _____________
         |  ___________     _/_/       | |  \ \       _/_/       ___________  |
         | |              _/_/_____    | |   > >    _/_/_____               | |
         | |             /________/    | |  / /    /________/               | |
         | |                           | | / /                              | |
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         | |                           | | /                                | |
         | |                           |  /                                 | |
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         | |                                                                | |
         | |      c   o   m   m   u   n   i   c   a   t   i   o   n   s     | |
         | |________________________________________________________________| |
         |____________________________________________________________________|

      ...presents...              The Longer March
                                                             by Oxblood Ruffin
                                                             7/15/1998-#356

                 __///////\ -cDc- CULT OF THE DEAD COW -cDc- /\\\\\\\__
                   \\\\\\\/  Everything You Need Since 1986  \///////
      ___    _   _    ___     _   _    ___       _   _      ___    _   _      ___
     |___heal_the_sick___raise_the_dead___cleanse_the_lepers___cast_out_demons___|

    "Adventure, exploration, discovery, human courage and cowardice, ecstasy and
    triumph, suffering, sacrifice, and loyalty, and then through it all, like a
    flame, an undimmed ardor and undying hope and amazing revolutionary optimism
    of those thousands of youth who would not admit defeat either by man or nature
    or God or death -- all this is and more seemed embodied in the history of an
    odyssey unequaled in modern times."
                      -- Edgar Snow, _Red Star over China_

        This interview was conducted at Ted's Auto Collision Bay and Fine
        Dining in Toronto, on July 7th, 1998. Blondie Wong (hereafter, B)
        is the Director of the Hong Kong Blondes and Oxblood Ruffin
        (hereafter, O) is the Foreign Minister of the
        CULT OF THE DEAD COW (cDc).

    [Editor's note: This interview was referred to in Arik Hesseldahl's
    July 14, 1998 WIRED NEWS article, "Hacking for Human Rights"
    and the Toronto Star's July 23, 1998 article,
    "Computer Hacking New Tool of Political Activism".]

    O:  I'm happy that this is finally coming together. I've had all kindsa
        people beggin' me to speak with you. One journalist even emailed me to
        suggest that he would fly anywhere in the world where I could blindfold
        him and put him in the trunk of a car, then drive him to some secret
        rendezvous where he would interview you.
    B:  It sounds like something from a movie.  Are you sure he wasn't joking?
    O:  No.  He was very sincere.  I was tempted to take him up on his offer and
        drive him to Detroit. "Hey, babe. Blondie couldn't make it but I've
        managed to dig up Jimmy Hoffa for you."
    B:  I know that was a joke -- but I don't know what kind.
    O:  O.K., before we begin, I've gotta ask you something?
    B:  Yes.
    O:  What's up with you and those Prada loafers. Have you been reading
        _Wallpaper?_  Are you dating a model? Give it up hacker man.
    B:  Enough. Clothes aren't important.
    O:  If that were true you wouldn't wear D&G suits. Face it. You're one
        stylin' revolutionary.
    B:  I own two suits. Everything else can be put into a suitcase and that
        includes my computer and personal items. I own very little.
    O:  You like to travel light.
    B:  I have to travel light.
    O:  You make it sound like someone is after you.
    B:  You know who is after.
    O:  O.K.  Do you believe that the Government of China is looking for you?
    B:  I know so.
    O:  How do you know?
    B:  Our sources have alerted us. And there was the incident last August.
    O:  Pass. Do you still have armed guards.
    B:  Yes, over there.
    O:  Charming. He looks like a fucking troll.
    B:  Don't look at him. He doesn't like ...
    O:  Biscuits?
    B:  What?
    O:  He doesn't like white guys?
    B:  I am not always given suitable people.
    O:  Given?
    B:  Yes, our arrangement with [deleted] ...
    O:  Whoa! You shouldn't use their name.
    B:  Well, we have a working relationship with a group of people who are even
        more outside of the law than we are.
    O:  That works. The enemies of my enemies are my friends.
    B:  What does that mean?
    O:  I think it's a quote from Themistocles. It means that sometimes we make
        alliances based on mutual conflict with a third party. Like the U.S and
        Iran. They have very little affection for each other but even less for
        Iraq.
    B:  Just so. We share the same enemy. I like that.
    O:  And these law breakers provide you with armed guards?
    B:  That and other things. I prefer more to use their help to move people in
        and out of the country.
    O:  You mean in and out of China?
    B:  Yes. A few months ago one of our people was picked up ...
    O   You mean Lemon Li?
    B:  Yes, Lemon was questioned in Beijing. She was released after a few hours
        but I couldn't take any chances so our associates moved her out of
        China. She is in Paris now.
    O:  Having a woman as the head of technical operations is sort of a radical
        concept for a group of hackers.
    B:  Half of our members are women. Half of the people in the world are
        women. Lemon is our best person. The best people go where they're
        needed. That's our policy.
    O:  How'd she get the name Lemon? Is it from that song by U2?
    B:  No. She loves Meadowlark Lemon, the basketball player. She got an old
        videotape of the Harlem Globetrotters and played it until it turned into
        a snow storm.
    O:  Cool. So did moving Lemon to Europe disrupt the Blonde's agenda? Has it
        made things more difficult?
    B:  Difficult? No. She is acting more like traffic co-ordinator now. Much of
        our work is happening from the inside and she steers our efforts in the
        right direction.
    O:  What do you mean that work is being done from the inside? The inside of
        what?
    B:  We, the Blondes have grown by about twenty members from this time last
        year. Many of the newer members are government employees. Technical
        people mostly.
    O:  Get the fuck outa here. Are you saying that these people are like moles,
        that they're members of the CP?
    B:  Yes.
    O:  Holy shit. That is some serious spy candy.
    B:  What?
    O:  Nothing. It's been an interesting year. I've noticed in the computer
        underground that there are a few younger groups who cite the Hong Kong
        Blondes as an inspiration. There's been a lot of activity, especially
        around Analyzer's crew. He seems to have influenced people who claim to
        be hacking for some higher purpose. They say they want to fight child
        porn and other things. Do you have an opinion about this?
    B:  There has been a shift in consciousness, I believe. Younger people have
        a great deal of talent although they can be very awkward. But the point
        is, I think they are different from the generation of hackers before
        them. They want the recognition and attention, but they also want to do
        something to contribute to change things in a positive way. In general,
        I think what they are doing will grow and turn into something that makes
        a difference.
    O:  Do you think the BARC [nuclear research facility in India] break-in
        represents some kind of progress? Is this the sort of thing that you're
        talking about?
    B:  Yes. That's a good example. Nuclear proliferation is still a tremendous
        threat to international security, but since the fall of the Berlin Wall
        and the commercial development of Russia and the other states, there's
        this attitude that everything is golden. Somehow people think that the
        bombs have disappeared because we don't read about them in the papers
        like we used to. At any rate, I view the BARC intrusion as something
        positive because it will draw attention to the situation and cause more
        discussion about a serious issue.
    O:  Were you political in school, in China?  Is that where you got your
        orientation?
    B:  I became aware of politics at an early age.  But it was just awareness.
        I was never politically active, if that is how you mean it.  Politics
        for me has always been something disgusting, something I didn't even
        want to understand.
    O:  Woody Allen once joked that a politician was about two steps below a
        pedophile.
    B:  That must make him feel slightly superior to a politician.  But yes,
        that is more or less my feeling too.
    O:  So when you say that you were politically aware, what do you mean by
        that?
    B:  In China it is impossible not to be aware of politics. The Party is
        everywhere.  Meetings, criticism, people being denounced.  And the fear,
        that is really the big thing.  Imagine: you can't speak freely.  Or
        you're always wondering who is going to report you for having contrary
        opinions.  What everyone in the West takes for granted is a luxury in
        China.  When I was younger I never really wanted to change anything.  I
        just wanted to remain above it.  Sounds selfish, I know.  But for me, my
        goals have always been more -- how is it? -- more spiritual.  I was,
        even now, more influenced by persons outside of political life.
    O:  I understand, but even the great social activists are inherently
        political. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, they were both stuck with
        politics.
    B:  Fortunately they had the advantage of dealing with democratic
        institutions. My opponents would be very happy to put a bullet in the
        back of my head.
    O:  Yet you still do this work. Why?
    B:  I feel that I have no choice. I have the capacity to lead and to
        organize. And there is, well, I think I still have a lot of anger in me.
        My father was murdered during the Cultural Revolution. He was dragged
        out of our home by the Red Guard and stoned to death right in front of
        us.
    O:  Damn. Who was us? Your family?
    B:  Yes. My mother and myself. After that we went to live with my uncle.
    O:  So why did they come to your house? Why did they want your father?
    B:  One of the girls from the Red Guard denounced him.  So stupid. He had
        given her mother some calligraphy, something Buddhist, a prayer or
        something, and that was what made my father an enemy of the people.
        I think they had really just come to humiliate him, but it got out of
        hand.
    O:  So you're a kid.  Your father has been, well, murdered, and you and your
        mother go to live with your uncle.  What can you tell me about that?
    B:  It was very difficult for everyone, especially my mother.  She became
        excessively paranoid and eventually refused to leave the house.  I had
        to take care of her most of the time.  When I went to school a neighbor
        would come to help.  My uncle is a bachelor and there was no one else in
        the house.  Plus he often traveled.
    O:  What did he do?
    B:  That is hard to answer.  He is very gifted at languages.  I think that's
        all I can say.  I became fluent in English because of him.  Yes.  But I
        think that's all ..
    O:  Understood.  And school?  Growing up?  That sort of stuff.
    B:  I was asleep in school mostly.  Quite bored.  School, learning, these
        things have always been easy for me.  I look at a book, once, twice, and
        that's it.  I understand, and it stays.  I never had to study.  So the
        disadvantage was that I was always bored, looking out the window, you
        know.  Sports were the only thing that kept me from going crazy.  I
        played soccer at school, but mostly, I practiced martial arts. Anyway,
        it was school, sports and running home to help out.  That was my life.
    O:  Man.  Was there anything, did you ever goof off, you know, do dopey shit
        with your friends when you were a teenager, or were you pretty serious?
    B:  Let's see.  Yes.  When I was fifteen I fell under the spell of Bruce
        Lee.  Everyone thinks of him as this great martial artist, and that is
        true, but what most people forget is how funny he was.  He had been a
        child actor in Hong Kong and was good at falling-down humor.  You know,
        when you're always tripping and falling on your ass, like what Jackie
        Chan does.
    O:  You mean sight gags?  Slapstick?
    B:  Yes, slapstick.  I found these really ugly glasses with lenses so thick,
        they made your eyes look like they were under a magnifying glass.  I
        used to put them on and talk really loud, asking stupid questions,
        tripping, and repeating the same stupid question. It was ridiculous but
        people laughed.  So one day we, there were three of us, we decided to go
        into a bakery and try out the routine.  I went in and asked directions
        on how to get to the bakery we were already in.  The owner just looked
        at me and said that I was there, that I was in the place I was looking
        for. Then I asked the same question and started bumping into things.
        And this poor man, he's just looking at me like I'm an idiot.  And again
        he explained that I'm in the right place.  Meanwhile my friends were
        stealing pastries.  We did that at a few different places until we
        almost got caught.  I like doing imitations.  I can do Kramer coming
        through the door.
    O:  Yes.  I've seen the Kramer.  Love the Kramer.  The Kramer is good.
    B:  There.  Everyone does that.  I always hear people talking, like from
        Seinfeld.
    O:  Yeah.  It can be a bit dopey.  O.K.  So you're a normal kid and you do
        some bakery capers.  University.  What was that like?
    B:  Well, the hardest part was getting in.  At the end of high school
        there's something called The Big Test. It's an examination that lasts
        several days and determines your future.  There is nothing like it here.
        The pressure for students is unbearable.  It's study, study, study --
        for months.  Before, I was bragging about not studying, but for that
        test I did.  I was accepted at [a university] where I did an
        undergraduate degree, and for my next degree I studied abroad, you know,
        graduate work, research, and so.  I wanted to teach.  I was lucky about
        getting accepted into [a university in the UK], so things seemed on the
        right course.
    O:  But things didn't stay on course.  What provoked you to change your
        plans?
    B:  A massacre.  I had finished my studies and was preparing to go on
        short vacation through Europe before returning to China. This was just
        as the democracy movement was beginning to swell in the spring of 1989.
        We all -- not just the Chinese students, but everyone -- we watched
        television reports [about the demonstrations] with tremendous
        enthusiasm.  We were getting faxes, email, phone calls.  It was serious,
        but at the same time, it was almost like a big party. We were amazed at
        how much support there was for the students from the people. And there
        was a lot of excitement around Gorbachev and his visit to Beijing which
        took place during that time.  So many factors, you know.  But as the
        final days approached I began to feel very uncomfortable, almost like
        sick.  When the tanks went into the square and began shooting and
        running over people it was like I was a little boy again, watching my
        father being killed.  I couldn't believe it -- so terrible.  Then the
        big lie.  The government's first response was that it never happened.
        I was at a student pub in London when this was broadcast.   An
        engineering student from Shanghai just went berserk and destroyed the
        television. So much grief, so much anger.
    O:  And it was shortly after this that you arrived in Canada?
    B:  Yes.  I knew some students at Concordia [in Montreal] who were very
        helpful to get me a visa.  My first two years here were very dark, very
        depressing.  Something inside me broke and I could not get going.  There
        was first the shock of the killings, then realizing that I could just
        not go back.  All my plans were dashed.  I was worried about my mother,
        you know, so many things.  I couldn't work in my field.  I was working
        in a convenience store, in the Plateau [in Montreal]. It was ghastly.
    O:  And you ended up in Toronto. How did that happen?
    B:  I met a Chinese businessman who took me under his wing. I learned how to
        make money, and ended up making a lot of it. Real estate, investing,
        buying futures. I did something totally different from my training, and
        it just sort of snapped me out of it. I moved to Toronto where the
        Chinese community is much larger. I met you shortly after I arrived. The
        rest is history.
    O:  Leave me out of the history. I'm justa middle man.
    B:  Don't be ridiculous.
    O:  Look, let's just move along. People aren't interested in this stuff.
    B:  No. That isn't right. I must acknowledge the help we have gotten, the
        direction. You showed me everything about Western hackers. Chaos, Legion
        of Doom, MoD, everyone. When I understood how far the Cult of the Dead
        Cow reached into the hacker world, and how things were organized, I was
        able to take the best and use it for our struggle.
    O:  Well, that's kind, but really, the hacker community can be very chaotic.
        It's not what I'd call a well oiled machine. There is no discipline, not
        like with the Blondes.
    B:  We have different agendas. But still, if it weren't for the hackers, we
        wouldn't be as far ahead as we are. We owe you a lot.
    O:  Alright, then. On behalf of alla the hackers that ever lived, I accept.
        Cheers ...  Earlier you mentioned that you thought that there was a sort
        of shift, that younger hackers seemed to want to use their skills to
        contribute to some sort of social change. I keep getting asked how
        people can help the Hong Kong Blondes, how they can contribute, and I
        guess now would be a good time to ask you that same question. What can
        people do, hackers, members of the general public, anyone, what can they
        do to help the Blondes?
    B:  You are the king of set ups. We've already talked about this.
    O:  Shut up, jackass. Just pretend like you've heard this for the first
        time.
    B:  Alright, the first thing is this. There are many ways to get involved to
        support the struggle for human rights in China. Becoming aware is the
        beginning. Just talking about it is important, educating yourself. But
        if we are talking about the hacker community, you know, what they can
        do, this really is a matter of personal choice. I think that if people
        want to participate they should use the skills that they have. That is
        all they can do.
    O:  That's pretty oblique. What about the Yellow Pages? I think now would be
        a good time to talk about them.
    B:  Sorry. Yes, the Yellow Pages. They are mostly students in the United
        States and Europe.
    O:  What, no Canadians? Damn!
    B:  And Canadians ...
    O:  Yes!
    B:  ... who will be using the Internet to help us.
    O:  And how will the little buggers be doing that?
    B:  Alright. This requires a little background. One of the reasons that
        human rights in China are not further ahead is because they have been
        de-linked from American trade policy. What this means is that when human
        rights considerations were associated with doing business with the
        United States, at least there was the threat of losing trade relations,
        of some form of punishment. Now this just doesn't exist. Beijing
        successfully went around Congress and straight to American business, so
        in effect, businessmen started dictating foreign policy. There are huge
        lobbies in Washington that only spend money to ensure that no one
        interferes with this agenda. It's very well organized, and it doesn't
        end there. Henry Kissenger ...
    O:  Former Secretary of State under Richard Nixon, etc.
    B:  Yes, Kissenger is now convinced that he is running Chinese foreign
        policy and has made obscene amounts of money by connecting American
        businesses to Chinese markets, and at the same time, he's denouncing any
        kind of linkage between trade and progress on human rights issues as an
        intrusion into national sovereignty. Every other former Secretary of
        State and National Security Advisor for the past twenty-five years is
        now working for Kissinger and doing the same thing. And Bill Gates is
        another offender. In 1996 he publicly endorsed China's position that
        human rights in China should not even be discussed at an annual meeting
        of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. By taking the side of
        profit over conscience, business has set our struggle back so far that
        they have become our oppressors too.
    O:  So, shall we come back to the Yellow Pages?
    B:  Yes. The Yellow Pages will make life challenging for American companies
        doing business with China.
    O:  And how will they do that?
    B:  By exposing them. By naming them and possibly worse.
    O:  And by possibly worse, you mean what?
    B:  Let us be frank here. Many of these companies have computer networks and
        there are a lot of members in the Yellow Pages who have excellent
        hacking skills.
    O:  I see. Let your fingers do the stalking.
    B:  What?
    O:  Nothing. How can people get involved? Is membership in the Yellow Pages
        open, closed? What?
    B:  Membership is open to anyone who wants to get involved. There are groups
        forming in many places. Anyone can start a new cell, but the main thing
        is to be careful. No foolish gestures.
    O:  And by holding these companies' feet to the fire, this will help human
        rights in China?
    B:  You tell me. You understand how these things work.
    O:  O.K., it won't change the world but it will raise the issue in a
        different way and that is important. George Kennan once remarked that
        the smallest amount of progress in international relations was
        significant even though it might not seem like much on the surface. In
        the same way, I think that something will come out of this venture
        because it's just wacky enough to grab people's attention. I mean, who
        would put hacking corporate networks together with human rights in
        China? It's pretty stretched out, but it makes perfect sense to me. I
        think that journalists, at least the ones that don't work in Washington,
        will take a look at this and start asking questions.
    B:  We will be attacked.  This idea will be attacked like anything.
    O:  I know, but I don't really care. It is better to light a candle than to
        curse the darkness. Look, we have to help with the strategy because it
        sure as hell isn't coming from the political classes. Look at Bill
        Clinton. He makes his nice feel-good trip to China and comes back
        gushing about, one day there'll be democracy in China. The guy's an
        idiot. I mean, if I want advice from the President about getting a blow
        job from a young girl, I'm all ears, but about the chances for political
        reform in China, no way. He doesn't have the competence or the moral
        authority to speak about these things.
    B:  You are not a fan of Mr. Clinton's.
    O:  Oh, man, you know I'm not. But let's get back to the Yellow Pages.
    B:  Alright. What shall we say?
    O:  Who will control them, or at least, where will their direction come
        from?
    B:  They will direct themselves. This will be a disintermediated engagement.
    O:  Damn, nice lingo. And how will they know who to go after? How will the
        Yellow Pages identify companies that do business with China?
    B:  They'll have to ask. They'll have to educate themselves. The Web is a
        remarkable tool for doing research and posting one's findings. Just look
        at what it did for Netscape.
    O:  Yeah, the Netscape revolution. We must all study Chairman Jim thought.
    B:  That is correct.
    O:  So really, what we're saying is that we're basically gonna turn alla
        these kids loose on American companies. That could get messy.
    B:  We are turning no one loose. The Yellow Pages are independent of us [the
        Hong Kong Blondes] and the cDc.
    O:  Yeah. We have enough problems with, um, certain kinds of attention. The
        [Yellow] Pages are their own thing.
    B:  That is correct. But coming back to, how is it you said, that it could
        get messy? Human rights is an international issue, so I don't have a
        problem with businesses that profit from our suffering paying part of
        the bill. Perhaps then they will see the wisdom of putting some
        conditions on trade. But I think, more importantly, many young people
        will become involved in something important on their own terms. I have
        faith in idealism and youth. It took us a long way in 1989. I believe
        that it will help us again.
    O:  Amen. O.K., one last thing, then let's go eat.
    B:  Yes?
    O:  We, the Cult of the Dead Cow, are complete media whores, but the Hong
        Kong Blondes are something very different. Why did you agree to this
        interview?
    B:  Not for the kind of publicity you might think. We just need to have
        people know that we exist for now. It is like an insurance policy you
        could say. If anyone [of the Hong Kong Blondes] were arrested the
        possibility of execution or long imprisonment is quite real. In China,
        so much happens quietly, or behind closed doors. If someone is known,
        sometimes just that is enough to keep them alive, or give hope. So for
        that reason I'm saying we exist that certain things, we are doing. It is
        not for fame, no. So this insurance policy, it is something that no one
        wants to use, but sometimes it is good to take precautions. This is my
        first and last interview. Now I can go back to being invisible.
    O:  Not before you pay for your beer, jerky boy. Anyway, it's been a slice.
        Any parting words? Advice for the kids, rules to live by, whatever?
    B:  I've said enough. Let's go.

        .-.                             _   _                             .-.
       /   \           .-.             ((___))             .-.           /   \
      /.ooM \         /   \       .-.  [ x x ]  .-.       /   \         /.ooM \
    -/-------\-------/-----\-----/---\--\   /--/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-
    /lucky  13\     /       \   /     `-(' ')-'     \   /       \     /lucky  13\
               \   /         `-'         (U)         `-'         \   /
                `-'              the original e-zine              `-'    _
          Oooo                    eastside westside                     / )   __
     /)(\ (   \                       WORLDWIDE                        /  (  /  \
     \__/  )  /  Copyright (c) 1998 cDc communications and the author. \   ) \)(/
           (_/     CULT OF THE DEAD COW is a registered trademark of    oooO
              cDc communications, PO Box 53011, Lubbock, TX, 79453, USA.      _
      oooO              All rights reserved.  Edited by Omega           __   ( \
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     \  (  \__/       Save yourself!  Go outside!  Do something!       \)(/ (   /
      \_)                     xXx   BOW to the COW   xXx                    Oooo

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