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     |  ___________     _/_/       | |  \ \       _/_/       ___________  |
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     | |      c   o   m   m   u   n   i   c   a   t   i   o   n   s     | |
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     |____________________________________________________________________|

  ...presents...             Feed 'Em to the Lions!
                                                         by Tequila Willy

                      >>> a cDc publication.......1991 <<<
                        -cDc- CULT OF THE DEAD COW -cDc-
 ______________________________________________________________________________


     Who's this God guy that people keep talking about?

     Some people seriously believe that God exists, while others will argue to
no end that such a notion is preposterous.  Regardless of your personal
ideology, it is possible to successfully "win" an argument either supporting
or denying God's existence.

     The purpose of this file is not to prove or deny God's existence -- after
all, that's merely a metaphysical issue -- its purpose is simply to help you
have more fun the next time this argument of faith versus reason inevitably
presents itself.  After all, being an intellectual bully is fun.

                          ---------------------------
                          ARGUING FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE
                          ---------------------------

FOREWORD:

     If you are arguing with someone in attempt to prove that God exists you
probably believe that in fact God really does exist.  There is no question in
your mind that there's a God, help anyone that doesn't see it!  The person you
are arguing with is probably an atheist.

     The concept of atheism is largely misunderstood.  To be an atheist does
not mean that you are dead-set that there is no God, but rather that the
evidence needed to provide conclusive grounds that there is a God simply hasn't
presented itself.  In fact, the word "atheist" simply refers to a denial of
theism.

     Because there is no evidence for God, those who believe in God must do so
out of faith.  Faith, according the popular definition offered by many
dictionaries, is simply a belief that is not based on proof.  When you are
arguing with an atheist, the atheist is looking for "facts" that will prove
that there must be a God, and that is what this argument will attempt to
present; "facts".

     This argument was originally presented by the philosopher Anselm
(1033-1109) and though it is flawed, it nevertheless proves to be an excellent
argument to use when arguing for God's existence -- as long as you are aware of
the argument's fallacies and can argue around them.


FOUR SIMPLE STEPS:

Step 1:

     After establishing that your opponent does not believe there is a God,
launch into this bit of dialogue;

     "Obviously before I can prove that God exists, we must first define
     what God is so that we recognize it when we prove it.  God, for the
     purposes of this argument shall be defined as 'Something-than-which-
     nothing-greater-can-be-thought'.

     After all, God -- theoretically -- created the heavens, the universe,
     the Earth, and all that dwells within it.  At least, that's how the
     story goes, and IF God did exist, as I shall prove to you, then we
     can presume that God did all these marvelous things.  After all, I'm
     not trying to prove the existence of elves or goblins, but God.  God
     is 'something-than-which-NOTHING-GREATER-can-be-thought'."

     This step in the argument is crucial to winning -- do not even attempt to
proceed to step two of this argument until you have an agreement as to who/what
God is (common disagreements to each step in this argument and how to overcome
them are presented at the end of this argument.)

Step 2:

     Having established that what you are going to prove the existence of is
"something-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought" and this "something..."
you will call God, you may begin on this step.  This step may be omitted, but
it's nice to include to add to the emotive appeal of the argument.

     "As simple as this 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought'
     definition is, I just want to make sure you understand exactly what I
     mean.

     For example, if I'm thinking of a God that can raise the land, part
     the sea, create matter, alter time, and lives forever, and you think
     of a God with all those characteristics except that he can also run a
     faster mile than anyone else, then you have the concept of God and
     not I; for God, by definition is 'that-than-which-NOTHING-greater-can-
     be-thought'.  So, if you're thinking of something greater, then you
     are thinking of God."

     Allow your listener(s) to ponder this thought for a moment and proceed to
step three.

Step 3:

     Prepare to prove God's existence.

     "If then 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists in the
     mind alone, this same 'that-than-which-a-greater-CANNOT-be-thought'
     is 'that-than-which-a-greater-CAN-be thought.  But this is obviously
     impossible.  Therefore there is absolutely no doubt that 'something-
     than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists both in the mind and
     in reality.  Put simply, a God that exists certainly is greater than
     a God that doesn't exist, and therefore, by definition, God exists."

Step 4:

     Now, depending upon the alertness of your audience, you may or may not
have to use all of these defenses presented here -- you may even have to invent
a few of your own.

     Problem 1:  First of all, this argument assumes that existence is a
                 characteristic of greatness and this is not necessarily
                 the case.

            YOUR EXPLANATION;  (let's say you're arguing with William..)

                "William, as we all know you are a fine [runner].  Do you
                 think that you would be as fine a [runner] if you did
                 not exist?

                 Obviously you are not God, but I am merely pointing out
                 the significance of existence as an important
                 characteristic."


     Problem 2:  If we are to assume that God exists by this definition then
                 we are also to assume that a "secret island of the greatest
                 treasures thought" also exists.  After all, if by definition
                 one of the greatest islands of endless treasures exists, and
                 it exists because it wouldn't be great if it didn't exist,
                 then it must exist!

                 This is the big downfall of the argument, but with a lot of
                 emotion and confidence you can pull this off:

                 "It has already been clearly seen, however, that 'that-
                 than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' cannot be thought
                 not to exist, because it exists as a matter of certain
                 truth.  Otherwise it would not exist at all.  In short,
                 if anyone says that he thinks that this being does not
                 exist, I reply that, when he thinks of this either he thinks
                 of something than which a greater cannot be thought, or he
                 does not think of it."

     Problem 3:  You might find it difficult to have your audience agree on
                 the definition presented in step 1.  They might argue that
                 you can't define something that doesn't exist; if they do
                 this simply ask them what a unicorn is (act surprised and
                 ask if they believe in unicorns!)  They might also argue
                 that 'that-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought' is
                 not a suitable definition for 'God'; you may solve this
                 either by asking them to define God (so that you'll know it
                 when you prove he exists) and then add all your own ideas
                 ("...but don't you think God also could...[fill in]?") and
                 eventually you'll wear them down to "...nothing-greater..."
                 Or, you might simply choose to prove the existence of a
                 "...nothing-greater..." and then later add it is this
                 supreme being which we all call God that is this "...nothing
                 greater..."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                        -------------------------------
                        ARGUING AGAINST GOD'S EXISTENCE
                        -------------------------------

FOREWORD:

     There is one very important thing to keep in mind; you can't prove that
God doesn't exist if you reason that he doesn't exist.  Simply, you can't prove
something doesn't exist.  Allow me to elaborate with an example.

     When a child is crying in his room at night, Mom runs in to see what's
wrong.

      Mom: "What's wrong?"          <that was predictable!>
    Child: "There's a monster in my room!"
      Mom: "No there's not!  Where is he?"
    Child: "He's under the bed!"
      Mom: <looking under bed> "There's nothing here!"
    Child: "That's because when you looked under the bed, he ran into the
            closet!"
      Mom: <looking in closet> "There's nothing here!"
    Child: "That's because when you looked in the closet he ran into the
            dresser!"
      Mom: <looking in dresser> "There's nothing here!"
    Child: "That's because when you looked in the dresser he ran under the
            bed!"

     This child has faith that there is a monster in his room and there is no
way, no matter how much Mom tries to see it the child's way, that she'll ever
believe there is a monster in the room or prove to the child that there is no
monster.  Faith, as mentioned earlier, is simply a belief that is not based on
proof.  This argument, used by the child, can be correctly classified as an
argument from ignorance (Argument ad Ignorantiam) -- which is when it is argued
that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved
false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true.

     Believers in God have faith.

     The arguments presented here against God's existence attempt to appeal to
some speck of reason that might possibly still exist in the believer's brain.


THE ARGUMENT:

     This argument is presented in utmost simplicity.  The philosopher David
Hume (1711-1776) originally presented the argument, "EVIL AND THE PROOF FROM
DESIGN" from which this argument stems.

Step 1:

     As with the previous argument, we'll first attempt to define God by
assigning several characteristics to God.  If you are indeed arguing with
believers then it shouldn't prove to be too difficult to assemble the following
list of God attributes without too much disagreement.

    o God is all powerful
    o God is all good
    o God is all knowing

Step 2:

     The contradiction in God; launch into this bit of dialogue:

     "I think we're all smart enough here to realize that contradictions are
     always false.  Right?  I mean, if I say;

              'I'm six feet tall and I'm not six feet tall,' or
              'I have three legs and I don't have three legs,' or
              'Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies',

     or anything that's contradictory, it's going to be false.  After all, how
     can I assert a true and false statement together and call it true?"

     Allow your listener(s) to ponder this for a few moments.

Step 3:

     "Obviously, if there is God, then there is Satan.  Satan is all evil, and
     God is all good, right?  If God really is all good, then he doesn't
     want evil.  If God is also all knowing and all powerful then he obviously
     knows how to abolish evil and has the power to do it.  Why doesn't he?

     The only rational conclusion is that some contradiction exists in our
     definition of God.  Maybe God isn't all good and therefore doesn't care
     about exterminating evil.  Or maybe he is good and just doesn't know
     how to eliminate it or maybe he simply can't.

     By definition, God can't exist."

     Accept no compromise; God doesn't exist by definition.  After all, if
     Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies, we know something
     is wrong -- something is false!  The sentence is false!  If we create
     a contradictory definition of God, then it's false!  We haven't proven
     "a lesser God", we've instead demonstrated the contradiction involved in
     conceptualizing God and therefore shown that God can't exist.

Step 4:

     You may encounter some immediate objections..

    Problem 1:   This one is sure to come up if your listener(s) truly have
                 faith in God; "God wants evil to test our faith and our
                 strength!"  Reply with the following:

                 "God, by itself, is a very powerful concept without even
                 requiring evil.  I mean, after all, he is the master
                 creator of the Sun and the Earth, and is even responsible
                 for life?  Right?  Isn't it possible that someone, even
                 without experiencing evil, would have trouble seeing how
                 such a powerful being exists?"

                 Elaborate on the overwhelming concept of God, explaining
                 how maybe even someone from a "faithless" family who
                 wanted to believe in God would have a hard time doing
                 so without evidence at all.  Or suggest that the presence
                 of evil actually supports God more than it doesn't -- how
                 could there be evil without good?  They're concept
                 opposites -- so by allowing evil he is not testing our
                 faith at all, he's instead providing evidence that he
                 exists and that's hardly "faith"!  After you get some
                 agreement out of them proceed with..

                 "Well then, evil isn't really necessary at all to test our
                 faith and strength, is it?  The concept of God alone should
                 be test enough of our faith.  Therefore, your objection really
                 isn't valid at all, and God must not truly exist."

                 If they jump in with, "But you just said there couldn't be
                 evil without good, and there's evil, so there must be good
                 and therefore there must be God!"  Simply explain, "There is
                 no good nor evil, simply events and experiences which may
                 be incorrectly interpreted as being good or evil."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Don't expect any converts by using either argumentative form presented
here, but you may find that someone might at least question why they believe
what they do -- and to actually invoke thought in another certainly is no easy
task.

     Here's one more dialogue to use....
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

               =================================================
               FUN DIALOGUE WHEN THEY WAKE YOU UP SUNDAY MORNING
               =================================================

     God-Fearing Christian: You don't believe in God!?  I'll pray for you!

     You: I've heard God is forgiving.  Is this true?

     God-Fearing Christian: Yes, of course he is!

     You: Well, God is a pretty heavy concept.  I mean, he created the
universe.  He created Earth.  He created Adam & Eve and is truly responsible
for us being here at all.  That's a pretty big thing to grasp when you're
raised in a faithless family, wouldn't you agree?

     God-Fearing Christian: Yes, I see how it could be.

     You: Well then, if I don't believe in God, don't you think he'll see how I
had great trouble in believing he exists and forgive me and let me go to Heaven
anyway?

     God-Fearing Christian: [long pondering pause] But you have to ask Jesus
for forgiveness!

     You: Why would I do that?  I just told you I don't believe in him; and you
said God was forgiving!

     God-Fearing Christian: Oh, but he is!

     You: See you in Heaven then!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

             THE ROMANS HAD THE RIGHT IDEA; FEED 'EM TO THE LIONS!

                     REPENT, HEATHENS!  BOVINITY IS HERE!

                                Moooooooooo...
  _   _   ____________________________________________________________________
/((___))\|Demon Roach Undrgrnd.806/794-4362|NIHILISM..............517/546-0585|
 [ x x ] |Paisley Pasture......916/673-8412|Ripco II..............312/528-5020|
  \   /  |Tequila Willy's GSC..209/526-3194|The Works.............617/861-8976|
  (' ')  |Lunatic Labs.........213/655-0691|Condemned Reality.....618/397-7702|
   (U)   |====================================================================|
  .ooM   |Copr. 1991 cDc communications by Tequila Willy          07/20/91-177|
\_______/|All Rights Pissed Away.                            FIVE YEARS of cDc|



