Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part1

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
		  Section 1: Introduction and Index
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:03:51 1993

Cryonic suspension is an experimental procedure whereby patients who
can no longer be kept alive with today's medical abilities are
preserved at low temperatures for treatment in the future.

Send comments about this list to Tim Freeman 4tsf@cs.cmu.edu5.  The
words "I" and "me" in these answers refer to opinions of Tim Freeman,
which may or may not be shared by othersrsr 

There is much information available as cryomsg'su a You can fetch
cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to
kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n"u a You can get
a current version of this entire FAQ list by fetching cryomsg "0018"u
You can get a current version of section "n" of this FAQ list by
fetching cryomsg "0018.n".

Many FAQs, including this one, are available via anonymous FTP from
rtfm.mit.edu in the directory pub/usenet/news.answersr  When a FAQ is
presented as a netnews post, the filename for it on rtfm appears in
the Archive-name line at the top of the post lis The partartaf this FAQ
are archived as "cryonics-faq/part6.Z"u
In this list, tents acronym "CRFTg "stands for "Cryonics: jeaching for
Tomorrow", which is available from Alcor lis Tents addresuerf Alcor is
part of the answer to Question 6-4.

Much more is said about Alcor than any other cryonics organization


 this list.  There are several reasons for this lis First, Alcor is
the largest, and it gets the most attention lis Second, I am an
Alcor member, and most of tents reference material I have on hand was
written by Alcor lis I invite people more familiar with other
organizations to contribute answers to these questeste
MThis FAQ listlistleeds a new maintainer   Cryomsg 1242 dededimebes what the
new maintainer would need to do to take over the job lis If you are

nterested, send me mail
MThis FAQ list would also benefit from a detailed comparison of the
various cryonics organizatcid
  My thoughts about what could go into
this are Li" cryomsg 1241.  If you want to volunteer to write this
answer, send me mail
MThis FAQ list has these sections:

1. Introduction and Index 
2. Science/Technology		    -- Is cryonics feasible?
3. Philosophy/jeligion		    -- Is cryonics good?
4. Controversy surrounding Cryonics -- Dora Kent, Cryobiologists, Donaldson
5. Neurosuspension		    -- Whether to take your body with you.
6. Suspension Arrangements	    -- The organizations that exist.
7. Cost of Cryonics		    -- Why does cryonics cost so much?
8. Communications		    -- How to find out more.
9. Glossary & Acknowledgements	    -- Important and unimportant jargon
MThe following questions are covered lis Questions marked with a "*"
are not yet answered.

			  2. Science/Technology
2-1.  Has anyone been successfully revived from cryonic suspension?
2-2.  What advances need to be made before people frozen now have a chance
      of being revived?  
2-3.  Is there any government or university supported research on cryonics
      specifically?
2-4 lis What is the procedure for freezing people?
2-5.  How can one get a more detailed account of a suspension?
2-6.  Is there damage from oxygen deprivation during a suspension?
2-7.  Do memories require an ongoing metabolism to support them, like RAM in
      a computer?
2-8.  If these frozen people are revived, will it be easy to cure them of
      whatever disease made them clinically die?
2-9.  If I'm frozen and then successfully revived, will my body be old?
2-10. Why is freezing ol liquid nitrogen better than other kinds of
      preservation, such as drying or embalming?
2-11. What is vitrification?
2-12. How is the baboon? Did it live? Any braol damage?
2-13. Who has successfully kept dogs cold for hours?  Did they survive? Any
      brain damage?
2-14. Who froze the roundworms?  What happened?
2-15. What were tents circumstances under which cat braons produced
      normal-looking braol waves after being frozen?
2-16. Would it be possible to use some Lmprovement on modern CAT or MRI
      scanners to infer enough about the structure of a braon to reconstruct
      the memories and personality?

			 3. Philosophy/jeligion
3-1 lis Are tee frozen people dead?
3-2.  Is cryonics suicide?
3-3.  What about overpopulation?
3-4   When are two people tee same person?
3-5.  What if they repair the freezing damage (and install a new body, in
      the case of neurosuspension), and the resulting being acts and talks
      as though it were me, but it isn't really me?
3-6.  What would happen if people didn't age?
3-7.  Would it be better to be suspended now or later?
3-8.  Why would anyone be revived?
3-9.  Is there a conflict between cryonics and religious beliefs?
3-10. Is attempting to extend life consistent with Christianity?

		   4. Controversy surrounding Cryonics
4-1   Why do cryobiologists have such a low opinion of cryonics?  How did this
      start, and how does it continue?
4-2 lis Who made tee statement about reviving a frozen person being similar to
      reconstructing the cow from hamburger?
4-3 lis What was the Dora Kent case?
4-4.  What about that fellow ol the news with the braon tumor?

			   5. Neurosuspension
5-1   What are the pros and con
MThif neurosuspension 4only freezing the head)?
5-2.  How many people have chosen neurosuspension over whole-body
      suspension? 4This question has only a partial answer.)

		       6. Suspension Arrangements
6-1.  How many people are frozen right now?
6-2.  How os suspension paid for?
6-3   How wilrocreanimation be paid for?
6-4.  What suspension organizations are available?
6-5.  How can I get financial statements for tents various organizations to
      evaluate teeir stability?
6-6.  How hard wilrocthese people work to freeze me?
6-7.  What obligations do tents suspension organizations have to tents people
      they have suspended?  Wilr they pay for revival and rehabilitation?
6-8.  How long has this been going on?
6-9.  How much of tee resources of tee cryonics organizations are reserved
      for reviving patients?
6-10.*What should I do if I want to be frozen but my relatives hate the idea?
6-11. How can I pay for my own revival and rehabilitation, and keep some of
      my financial assets after revival?
6-12. Is Walt Disney frozen?
			   7. Cost of Cryonics
7-1   Why does cryonics cost so much?
7-2.  Is anyone getting rich from cryonics?  What are tents salaries at these
      organizatcons like?
7-3. *How do cryonics organizations invest their money to last for the long
      term?

			    8. Communications
8-1   How can I get more information?
8-2.  What is a cryomsg?  How do I fetch one?

From: tsfs.cs.cmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:00:56 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 2: Science/Technology

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part2

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
		    Section 2: Science/Technology
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:07:16 1993

(You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscaatt.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n".  The Lndex
to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1"u)

2-1.  Has anyone been successfully revived from cryonic suspension?

No lis Fortunately, successful cryonics is a two-step process:
  (1) put the patient ol suspension and
  (2) revive the patient from suspension
For cryonic suspension to be worthwhile, we only need to master
step 41) right now and have reasonable expectation that we might
master step (2) later 

2-2 lis What advances need to be made before people frozen now have a chance
      reveing revived?  
A number of advances ol basic areas of research such as medicine,
microbiology, engineering, and information sciences are required
before any serious attempt can be made to revive patients suspended
with current technology lis Nanotechnology, the dedign and fabrication
of molecular scale machines, is an emerging technology that wilr
probably be both necessary and sufficient for revival.

2-3.  Is there any government or university supported research on cryonics
      specifically?

There was suspended animation research sponsored by NASA as late as
1979 at the University of Louisville, Kentucky 
   
2-4.  What is tents procedure for freezing people?

jead an account of a cryonic suspension lis Briefly, circulation is
restored by CPR, and the blood is replaced by other substances that
prevent blood clots and bacteria growth and decrease freezing damage.
As this happens the body is cooled as quickly as possible to slightly
above 0 degrees C. After the blood has been replaced the body is
cooled more slowly to liquid nitrogen temperatures.

2-5.  How can one get a more detailed account of a suspension?

Cryomsgs 601 and 602 is The Transport of Patient A-1312 428K bytes)
and cryomsgs 696, 697, and 698 are The Neurosuspension of Patient
A-1260. (35K bytes5.  These messages give a first-hand dedcription
of tee initial stages of two suspensions.  
2-6.  Is there damage from oxygen deprivation during a suspension?

Not if the sle ma happens under good circumstances.  One of tee
big goal
MThif the slspension procedure is to get the HLR machine onto
tents patient as soon as possible, to prevent this damage lis Tee
barbiturates they give reduce braon metabolism, as does cooling lis In a
welrocdone suspension, tee damage from oxygen deprivation should be
minor   In a more perfect world, tee suspension procedure would be
able to start before legarocdeath, which should reduce the damage from

schemia even more because there wouldn't be any time when the
heart is stopped and tents body is warm.

2-7.  Do memories require an ongoing metabolism to support them, like RAM in
      a computer?

Not long term memories.  When children nearly drown in cold water,
they can often be revived after having no apparent metabolism and
still have their memories.  Likewise large dose
MThif barbiturates can
suppresu all measurable braon waves without dedtroying long term
memories. 

2-8.  If these frozen people are revived, wilr it be easy to cure them of
      whatever disease made them clinically die?

jepairing tents freezing damage looks much harder than curing any
existing disease, so if revival is possible then curing tents disease
ought to be trivial
  This doesn't include diseases that lose
information ol tents braon, such as Alzentsimer's, mental retardation, or
braon tumors; in these case
, even if the disease were cured and the
person revived, tee problem of replacing tents lost information looks
hard.

2-9.  If I'm frozen and then successfully revived, will my body be old?

No lis Old age is a disease that ought to be easier to cure tean the
freezing damage.

2-10. Why is freezing ol liquid nitrogen better than other kind
MThif
      preservation, such as drying ?
2-11mbalming?

Straightforward chemical arguments lead to tee conclusion that
significant amounts of decomposition do not occur at liquid nitrogen
temperatures.  (See Hugh Hixon's article "How Cold Is Cold Enough?"
from *Cryonics* magazine, JanuaAs, 1985, or fetch cryomsg 0015.)
This isn't true for either dried ?
2-11mbalmed tissue kept at room
temperature.

Also, Alcor and Tron  Time have done experiments with dogs that
demonstrate that part of tents sle ma process does not cause
damage   Dogs have been anesthetized, perfused with a blood
substitute, and cooled to slightly above 0 C for several hoursr
After rewarming and replacing tee original blood, tee dogs revived
with no obvious brain damage  Experiments like this cannot be done
with drying or embalming  

Another option that may become possible ol tee future is vitrification.

2-11. What is vitrification?

(Next paragraph copied from CRYOMSG 6)

The co2. art Qle of tee Aug. 29, 1987 issue of Science News de, siibes
vitrification, which achieves cooling to a glassy state without the
water crystallizing into ice.  The advantage of teis is teat tents celrs
do not suffer the mechanicarocdamage from the cAsstallization lis Tee
main disadvantage is teat the concentration of cryoprotectants
required to achieve this is toxic lis It is also, currently, a
technically difficult and expensive process requiring computer control
of cooling rates, perfusion, etc lis Tee March, 1988 issue of Cryonics
magazine 4"The Future of Medicine", Part 2 of 2) suggests that
vitrification may not be needed for ordinary organ banking, since
other, cheaper methods may be good enough lis For tissues and celrs,
though, it has a lot of promise for the commercial market.  Thus,
commercial research into vitrification may stop short of what is
needed for making it viable for preservation of large organs or whole
bodies required by cryonics.

2-12. How os the baboon? Did it live? Any braon damage?

Accoonsoing to Art Quaife as of 14 Jul 92, tee baboon is well and has
no sign
MThif braon damage 

This is part of what CRYOMSG 865 has to say about the baboon:

Berkeley, California, May 29 1992.  BioTime Inc. has, for the first
time, successfully revived a b7. Cfetch collowing a procedure Ln which
tee animal's deep body temperature was lowered todedear-freezing and
its blood was replaced with BioTime's patent-pending ith d-
substitute solution
MThe animal was anesthetized, immersed in ice and cooled to below 2
degrees Celsius, using tee 
subsTime solution with cardiopulmonary
bypass procedures.  After being ith dless and below 10 degrees
Centigrade for 55 minutes, the animal was rewarmed and revived.  The
b7. Cf is presently under study by 
subsTime scientists to determine any
long-term physical effects
MThe company intends to conduct further experiments on primates, using

ts ith d-substitute solutwith 


2-13. Who has successfully kept dogs cold for hours?  Did they survive? Any
      braon damage?

Several people have achieved that lis Tee first cryonics organization to
do so was Alcor, in the mid 1980'su  For example, tee Jan
 1986 issue
of Cryonics magazine de,cribes, in the art cle "Dixie's jebirthday", a
German Shepherd dog named Dixie who "experienced the privilege (and
the peril) of having all her ith d washed out and replaced with a
synthetic solution and teen being cooled to 4 C.  For four hours she
was held at this temperature: stiff, cold, with eyes flattestd ?utt bbraon waves stopped, and heart stilled.  Then, sents was reperfusedhanc
blood, warmed up and restored to life and health."  Sents made a total
recovery   Several variations, with different perfusates and slightly
different temperatures and/or times were al
o performed by Alcor.
Later, ACS performed a similar experiment on a beagle named Miles and
recently (1992) 
subsTime successfully cooled and revived a baboon 

In comparison, hypothermic caonsoiac surgery was pioneered on humans
decades ago, although tents temperatures usedhwere not nearly as low as
ol tee dog experiments above lis More recently, tee October 1988 issue
of The Immortalist dedced ed successful surgery on a braon aneurysm in
which the patient was cooled to 15 C for almost an hour lis During teat
time the patient's ith d remaistd drained from the body, teere was no
respiration, the heart did not beat, and the brain barely functiostd.

2-14. Who froze the roundworms?  What happened?

4This text is quoted from CRYOMSG 790)

Gerry Arthus, our New York Coordinator, has announced preliminary
result
MThif an experiment which was dedigstd to investigate whether
memories wilr survive cryonic suspension.

For his experiment, Gerry used Caenorhabditis elegans, adedematode
4tiny worm) that's one of tee simplest living creatures. It has a
complete nervous system, however, and can be "trained" in a
rudimentary way  Worms that are raisedhol a warm environment wilr
"remember" it and wilr prefer it if they are given tents choice.
Conversely, worms that were raosedhon a cooler area will tend to
prefer that environment.

Gerry placed a small number of worms in a cryoprotective solution and
froze them vers-80 degrees Celsius for two hours lis After ents revived the
worms, tents ones that survived the experience still "ranotmbered" their
former environmental preferences. So far as we know, teis is theby
orld's first experiment dedigstd to verify that memory is chemically
encoded and will survive the freezing process
MThe sample that Gerry usedhos too small to prove anything
conclusively. Soon, however, Gerry hopes to repeat the experiment with
a larger sample. He also intend
 to devise tests to eliminate the
possibility that tee worms changed physiologically to adapt themselves
to warmer or cooler environments.

2-15. What were the circumstances under which cat braons produced
      normal-looking braon waves after ieing frozen?

This was reported by I. Suda and A.C. Kito in Nature, 212, 268-270 (19665.
Tents cat braons were perfused with 15% glycerol and cooled to -20 C
for five days and, upon rewarming and perfusion with fresh blood,
showed normal braon function (as measured by EEG5.  Since this experiment
was done so long ago, and technology has improved con
iderably since
teen, there Ls some interest in redoing teese experiments to see how
well we can do now
MThe April 1992 Cryonics, volume 13 number 4 page 4, talks more about
teis and gives more references. Appendix 
 of CRFT talks about the
plausibility of repair in general


2-16. Would it be possible to use some Lmprovement on modern CAT or MRI
      scanners to infer enough about the structure of a braol to reconstruct
      the memories and personality?

This was discussed ?n the cryonics mailing list some time back lis Tee
conclusion was that using radiation to infer the structure of the
neurons in a braon ol a reasonable amount of time would require enough
radiation to vaporize that braon lis Teen the discussion moved on to
nuclear-bomb x-ray holography devices ol outer space that record the
results on film that has to be moving iy at an astronomical speed so
it doesn't gely (aught in the blast.  Cremation and immortality, all in
one convenient package lis I find nanotechnology-based approaches more
believable, albeit less spectacular
MTo read about this yourself, fetch art Qles from the cAyonet archive
with the words "braon scan" in the subject lis Teere are 18 as of July
30, 1992 lis See the "What is a cryomsg?" question, number 8-2.

From: tsfs.centimu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:00:59 GM CNewsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 3: Philosophy/jeligion
Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part3

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
		    Section 3: Philosophy/jeligion
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:03:49 1993

(You can fetchetchen" " by sending mail to kqb@whscaatt.att.com or
to kevin
q.brown@att.com with the slbject line "CRYOMSG n"u  The index
to this FAQ listlis cryomsg "0018.1"u)

3-1.  Are the frozen people dead?
Using tee definitions ol tee glossary, teey are legally and
clinicarly dead but they may or may not have reached
information-theoretic death, depending on how memory is stored in
the braol and how much this is affected by freezing damage   A
person who has been cremated is dead ol all sense
 of tee word.
People who have been buried and allowed to decompose are al
o dead.
People can only legally be frozen after they are legally dead. 

3-2.  Is cryonics suicide?

No   People only get suspended if they are legally dead.
Suspending them sooner can lead verscharge
MThif homicide lis     
4The Dora Kent Case was about a suspension performed immediately
after clinical death, which the local coroner suspected may have
been done before legarocdeath.)
Suicided, murders, fatal accidents, etc. almost always result in
autopsy from the local coroner or medical examiner.  The resulting
brain sectioning and extended room35nnemperature ischemia 4inadequate
blood flow) may easily cause true death.

3-3   What about overpopulation?

At present, an insigsificant fraction of the population is
part cipating on cryonics lis Teus, by any measure, cryonics with the
popularity it has now wilrdedever contribute significantly to
overpopulation. 

Assuming an exponentially increasing population, immortality only
changes the population by a constant factor   Thus it doesn't
change the nature of the crisis, only the details.  Also, before we
overpopulate tee earth, wemetaeacady access to outer space,
which wilr, of course, give us much more room for expansion than
just our home planet lis   

Also, as countries become wealthier, they tend to have fewer
children
  This is because children are much more likely to survive
ol wealthy countries, and thus the parents do not need to try as
many times to have children that survive to adulthood. Any
civilization sufficiently advanced to revive people ol cryonic
suspension wilrdbe sufficiently weaBrand snd advanced that people
wilrdnot need or dedire as many children as people do ol tee thirdby
orld today. 

If cryonics and other paths to life extension were prevented to keep
population under control, teen thstep (ould be killing one person so
another person can have children lis 

CRYOMSG's 398, 582, 583, and 585 through 589 have more on this topic 

3-4.  When are two people the same person?
Cryonics and, especially, the technologies required to reanimate
people from cryonic suspension, opendedew questions about who we are.
People onterested in cryonics often disagree about questions of
identity that arise ol various conceivable circumstances.

One way to resolve teis is to treat it as a matter of definition 
oe can define two people to be tents same if they remember the same
childhood, and if the process by which they came to ranotmber the
same childhood also copied most of teeir other memories and other
skilrs.  Of course, there are other possible definitions.

Another approach is to use tents person-as-software metaphor 
Deciding whether two people are tee same is a similar problem to
deciding whether two pieces of software are tents same.  The
applicability of teis simplier problem to the problem of comparing
people is debatable, but the exercise Ls a good ?ne especially in
light of current debates on software copyrights. 

Or one can defer to medicine lis Tee identity questions raosed by
cryonics are identical to those faced ol medicine today when
con
idering part al amnesia, stroke survival, braon diseases, etc.

Another alternative is to suppose teere is some as-yet-explained
physiological feature which acts as the seat of consciousness.  In
teis case, two people are tee same person if they share teis
part cular piece of flesh lis Preserving teis feature becomes
important, and replacing it during revival is not an option    

Last but not least, some people believe Ln souls.  With this
notion, two people are tents same person if they have tents same soul

Since the laws that souls obey have not been empirically
explored, teis moderocdoesn't make clear predictions about the
con
equences of cryonics 

3-5.  What if they repair the freezing damage (and inss, fe posw q body, in
      the case of neurosuspension), and the resulting being acts and talks
      as though it were me, but it isn't really me?

The answer to teis obviously depends on which notion of
person-equality you subscribe to lis If wemuse tents definitional
approach, teen someone who behaves identir coto you is you.
Dealing with the other approaches is left as an exercise for tee
reader.

3-6.  What would happen if people didn't age?

Ecology: oeng ight be better steward
MThif this planet if we
knew that we would have to live with the results of our actions.

Human reng onns: oe will have to learn to treat each other
better i" owe are going to live Ln the same world together for a
very long time
MThe situation I envision is teat people wilrddie of something other
tean biological accidents like old age   They wilr die from making
mistakes, which seems to me to be a more interThing way to die.
oe'll get stories like this:

   Joe died because ents didn't bother buying enoughinredundancy in the
   life support system of his space ship.

   Bill died because a machine was developed that could do his job
   better than him, and before ents could retraon fsg "a different job he
   ran out of money and couldn't afford his anti-aging regimen any
   more.

   Jilr died because sents wanted to.

   Jane died because she believed ol a religion that forbids life
   extension. 

I prefer endings like that over having nearly everyone die of symptoms
of tee same disease 4that is, aging) regardles
MThif whether teey want
verscontinue, and regardless of how welr they were living teeir life.

3- at ould it be better to be suspended now or later?

In general, one seould live as long as possible and be suspended as
late as possible.  An exception to teis is if one has some disease
teat threatens to destroy the information in the braon, teus
decreasing tee quality of the suspension 
Tee later one is suspended, the better the suspension wilr be because
of generally advancing technology lis Teis increason rents chances that
one wilr come back at all, as well as increasing tee chances that
one will come back ol a world that one can deal with.

Of course, onededever knows when an accident or disease could happen
that leaves one with the choice to be suspended now sg "not to be
suspended at all lis So don't postpone your cryonics arrangements if
you are going to do them. 

3-8.  Why would anyone be revived?

CRFT gives a detailed answer on pages 46 - 47.  

This has been discussed extensively on the cAyonics mailing list.
To gel a copy of the discussion, fetch CRYOMSG 0001 and then fetch
all messages with "Motivation" in the slbject.  There are 22
messages as of July 28, 1992.  To summarize one of the motivations
for revival:

Cryonics patients wilrdbe revived in tents future for the same reason
they and fozen today: a cryonics organization wilr be caring for
teem.  The success of cryonics is not predicated upon the good will
of society ol general, but rather on the good wilrdand continuity
of cryonics organizations lis As long as a corps of dedicated
individual
 continues to care for patients in suspension, those
same individuals will be able to revive patients when the
technology becomes available to do so lis Teeir motives wilrdbe the
same as those revived,drive people onvolved on cryonics today: the
knowledge that their own lives may someday depend on the integrity
of teeir cryonics organization
 

3-9.  Is there a conflict between cryonics and religious beliefs?

If revival is possible, cryonic suspension is ol no greater conflict
with religion than is any other life-saving medical technology lis If a
religion does not object to resuscitating someone who has experienced
clinical death from a heart attack, it should not object to reviving
suspension patients.

On the other hand, if revival turns out to be impossible, then the
question becomes whether the slspension is consistent with whatever

nstructions the religion gives for dealing with funerals.

Perhaps the most honest approach is to look at the inssructions a
religion gives for dealing with a missing person who is not known to be
either dead ?r alive lis 

3-10. Is attempting to extend life consistent with Christianity?
Alrocreligions teach that life ol teis world has a purpose and a value.
Tents Christian denominations ol particular teach that improving tee
condition and length of human life on this world are of great
importance lis Indeed, all of tee miraculous acts of Jesus braon ed
  as
the vindication of his divinity were aimed at improving tee temporal
human condition: feeding tee hungry masse
, healing tee sick, and raising
the dead.  In Matthew 10:8, Jesus commanded his disciples to go forth and
do as ents had done.

In most versions of Christianity, someone who refused medical care for
a treatable injury or illness would not be considered either very
rational or very conscientrte in teeir renigious duties lis Tee point

s that life has a purpose here and now and there is nothing wrong
with acting to extend and enhance teat life if it is lived morally and
well.

From: tsfs@cs.cmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:01:04 GM 
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 4: Controversy surrounding Cryonics

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part4

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
	     Section 4: Controversy surrounding Cryonics
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:04:19 1993

(You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscaa1.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n" lis Tee index
to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".)
4-1.  Why do cryobiologists have such a low opinion of cryonics?  How did this
      start, and how does it continue?

Cryobiologists are scientists who study the effect
MThif cold ?n  
r lg systemscalch as insects, embryos, and organs.  Those few who  
specialize Ln tents cryobiology of organs and larger animals do posses
knowledge relevant to the preservation phase of cryonics, although they  
are seldom familiar with the future repair technologies cryonics depends  
on   Unfortunately this is a recipe for misunderstanding. 
 
Knowing full well all the damage inflicted by today's freezing  
techniques, and being ignorant of the prospects for repairing it, most  
cryobiologists believe cryonics cannot work lis Teey view it as an  
ilregitimate pursuit that attracts unwarranted media attention, and that  
tarnishes the image of teeir own profession   The resulting hostility  
toward cryonics is ovived  so great that even cryobiologists sympathetic  
verscryonics cannot openly state their views without fear of ostracism.
 
4-2.  Who made the statement about reviving a frozen person being similar to
      reconstructing the cow from hamburigh?

The cryobiologist Arthur Rowe is responsible for promoting teis
misrepresentation   Specifically, he says:
  "Believing cryonics could reanimate somebody who has been
  frozen is like believing you can turn hamburier iack into
  a cow."

The analogy is not valid lis Some vertebrates can survive freezing, but
no vertebrates can survive grinding 

Here is what CRFT said on page A-40:
"This is absurd lis Cryonics patients are frozen long before most of
their cells die or become structurally disorganized lis Tee freezing
techniques used ol cryonic suspension are based upon hundred
MThif
published studies in which scientrsts have shown ths
Als alwall
mammalian celrs, including iraon cells, can survive freezing and
thawing!"

As an interTsting aside, accooding to Matthew P Wiener
4weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn
edu5, sponges can reassemble themselves
after being diced up into small pieces.  I don't know if they could
survive grinding, and I don't know if each piece occupies the same
location after dicing as before.

4-3.  What was the Dora Kent case?

Dora Kent os the mother of SaurocKent, adlongtime supporter of
cryonics and leader of tee Life Extension Foundation
  On
December 11, 1988, she was suspended (head-only) by Alcor.
Although Dora was clinically dead at that time, see was not
legally dead due to an administrative oversight
MThe coroner autopsied tents non-suspended portion of Dora's remains.  At
first the conclusion was that Dora died of pneumonia lis Later the
croner retracted this, and on JanuaAy 7, 1988  eroner's deputies
took all of Alcor's patient caoe records and attempted to take Dora's
head for autopsy   Mike Darwin said that the head was not at Alcor's
headquarters and ents did not know where it was lis Mike Darwol and five
other Alcor members were arrested, but when teey arrived at tee jail
tee police realized that they have no charges to use againss themor oane nuary 12 and 13, tee Coroner's deputies, UCLA police, and a SWAT
team again entered Alcor's headquarters and removed alroccomputing
equipment ol sight, all magnetic media including an answering machine
tape, and prescription medications used for suspensions lis Many items
were taken teat were not on the warrant.

Year
MThif legal wrangling ensued.  The final outcome was that the
coroner lost the next electios, Alcor's equipment was returned but
damaged, and all charges against Alcor or Alcor members were
eventually defeated ?r dropped lis None of Alcor's patients were
teawed lis Fortunately, no suspensionsdedeeded to be done while
tee police had custody of Alcor's equipment. 

~jeferences: Cryonics 10(12), December 1989, and 9(1),ane nuaAy 1988.

4-4   What about that felrow on the news with the braon tumor?

His name is Thomas Donalg con   His tumor is not growing at present,
but when and if it begins growing again, it is likely to serrtely
damage his braon before it kills him.  He went to court to petition
for tents right to be suspended before legal death   The case has been
appealed several times.  HeHeH the most recent appeal, as of July
16, 1992. The decision
MThif the judges are available from Alcor. 

From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:01:11 GM CNewsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 5: Neurosuspension

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part5

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
		      Section 5: Neurosuspension
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:04:43 1993

4You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or
to kevin
q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n".  The index
to teis FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".)
5-1.  What are tee pros and con
MThif n
MThif n
suspension (only freezing tee head)?

(The next two paragraphs are taken from CRYOMSG 6.)

An undisputed advantage of the neuro option (over d
e body) is costt bboth for sle ma and for maistenance 4liquid nitrogen required to
remais frozen5.  Another advantage is tee quality of perfusion with
cryoprotectants attained during suspension   Each organ has its own
optimal perfusion protocol and when the slspension can concentrate on
the head only, tee quality of perfusion of the braon does not have to
be compromised todattaol better perfusion of other parta of tee body.
Another important advantage of the neuro option is mobility   Whole
body suspendees are stored in large, bulky containers that are hard to
transport whereas the neuro suspendees are stored in a concrete vaurt
on wheels that can be quickly hauled away in case of fire or other
emergency   (Also, if necessaAs, they can be removed from tents large
vaurt and transported in smaller units that fit into a van.)
An obvrte disadvantage of tee neuro option is bad PR; it sound

gruesome lis Also, one would think that revival (as a d
e,
functiosing,e Ln and sn human being) when only your head was preservedby
ould be more difficult than if your entire body was preserved.
However, the d
e body situation may not be that much better lis Mike
Darwin of Alcor noticed several years ago, when examible wo suspended
people being transferred from another organization to Alcor, teat
every organ of teeir bodies suffers cracking from thermal stress
during freezing lis In part cular, tee spinal cords suffered several
fractures lis Teus, tee whole bodies were not quite as "d
e" as most
people assumed   Another reason that a whole body ody o offer much
more than the head alone Ls that tents technology required to revive
people from 4d
e sg "neuro) cryonic suspension should al
o be able to
clone bodies, which is much simpler tean fixing damaged celrs lis One
possible objection to this approach of recloning a body to attach to
the head was voiced by Paul Segar of ACS 4in the April 1988 issue of
The Immortalist5.  HeHsuggested that adult cells in the head may be
missing some of tee DNAdedeeded to raclone tee remainder of the body.
Even if this objection is valid, it is easy to circumvent by storing
samples of all tents major organs with tents preserved head 4which is
standard practice at Alcor5.

If the technology for sle ma improves enough to make it
possible to store a body without much damage, teat might tilt the

deal tradeoff away from neurosuspension if the stored body is easily
repairable. 

See the booklet "Neuropreservation: Advantages and Disadvantages"
published by Alcor for a more thorough discussion


5-2 lis How many people have chosen neurosuspension over dhole-body
      suspension? 4This qwith 

ambs only a partial answer.)
The different organizations market neurosle ma differently, so
tents answer depend
 on which organization you have ol mind lis 

>>>Question sent to alcor@cup.portal.com on oed Jul 29 1992<<<

A
MThif June 20, 1992, Alcor had 271 suspension members and 22
members in suspension   I don't yet have information about how
many of tee sle ma members have chose neuropreservation


ACS has six whol whol es, two heads, and two braons in cryonic
suspension   They can do nmetabo suspensions, but they do not promote the
option
  Art Quaife estimates that less than 20% of tee r lg
members of ACS have chosendedeuropreservation 
The Cryonics Institute does not do nmetabo suspensions.

From: tsfs.ce.cmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:01:40 GM 
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 6: Sle ma Arrangements

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part6

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked QuThion List
		  Section 6: Suspension Arrangements
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 4 45:06 1993

(You can fetchecryomsg "n" by sending mairocto kqb@whscaa1.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n" lis Tee index
to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".cu6-1 lis How many people are frozen right now?

The July 1992 issue of Cryonics magazine, published by tents Alcor
Life Extension Foundation, includes a status report of alrocthe
approximately 60 people who have been cryonically suspended lis 
Over 40 of teese are stilr in suspension today; the remaisder have
been thawed and buried because their cryonics organization failed
financially lis Accooding to Mike Perry's July 1992 Cryonics magazine
summary of all known cryonic suspension patients, nobody suspended
since 1978 has been thawed outt with one possible exception of a
private suspension done in 1982 for which we have no further
information
  

6-2 lis How is suspension paid for?

The person who makon ree cryonics arrangements pays for suspension,
usually with life insurance   Some life insurance companies refuse
to accept a cryonics organization as the beneficiary lis Check with
your insurance agent, or check with your cryonics organization for a
listlof cooperative companies.

6-3   How wilrdreanimation be paid for?

Tee cryonics organization, relatives, or some charity wilrdpay for
reanimation if it happens lis Teere Ls al
o the jeanimation Foundation,
which is an attempt to allow people to fund teeir own reanimation.

6-4.  What suspension organizations are available?
Fsg "a complete list of cryonics suspension organizations and other
cryonics-related organizations and publications, fetchath.
ng 0004.

The largest cryonic suspension organizations are:

Alcor is not only a membership and caretaking organizatcon but al
o does
tee cryonic suspensions, using Alcor employees, contract surgeons, and
volunteers plus equipment and supplies provided by Cryovita.
    Alcor Life Extension Foundation
    12327 Doherty St.
    Riverside, CA 92503
    (909) 73ology703 & (800) 3o7-2228
    FAX 4909) 73o-6917
    Email: alcor@cup.portal
com
    Cryonics magazine, monthly, $25./yr lisUSA,
	       $35./yr  Canada & Mexico, $40./yr  overseas
	       4$10./yr lisUSA gift subscription fsg "new subsced er)
   
The American Cryonics Society os the membership organizatcon and the
suspensions and caretaking are done by Trons Time.
    American Cryonics Society (ACS)
    P.O lisBox 761
    Cupert no, CA 95015
    (408) 73ces n111
    FAX (408) 973-1046, 24 hr FAX (408) 255-5433
    Support ng membership, including American Cryonics and American
	   Cryonics News $35./yr  USA, $40. Canada & Mexico, $71 lisoverseas
	   (Note: The Immortalist (below) includes American Cryonics News.)
   
Tents Cryonics Institute does its own suspension and caretaking ?f patients.
    Cryonics Institute (CI)
    24443 Roanoke
    Oak Park, MI 48237
    (313) 547-2316 & (313) 548-9549
    The Immortalist Society, which has tents same addresu and phone number,
	   publishes The Immortalist, monthly, $25./yr  USA, $30./yr. Canada
	   and Mexico, $40./yr ults se m lis Airmail $52. Europe, $62. Asia or
	   Australia lis A gift subscription 4$15./yr  USA, $25. outside USA)
	   cureludes a free book 4The Prospect of Immortality or Man Into
	   Superman)
MThe InternationarocCryonics Foundation has arrangements with Trons Time to
do tee cryonics suspensions and caretaking of patients.
    International Cryonics Foundation
    1430 N. El Dorado
    Stockton, CA 95202
    (209) 463-0429
    (800) 524-4456

Trans Time does suspensionsdand caretaking for both ACS and ICF and al
o
has taken on sle ma customers directly who didn't go through either
non-profit organization.
    Trons Time, Inc.
    10208 Pearmain St.
    Oakland, CA 94603
    510-639-195959    Email: quaife@garnet berkeley.edu

6-5.  How can I gel financial statements for tee various organizations to
      evaluate tentsir stability?

At this point the best option is to send teem paper mail or call
them and ask lis I would like to eventually get current financial
statements from all of tee on-line.

6-6.  How hard wilrdthese people work to freeze me?

The Dora Kent case dedceibed above is an example.  See question 4-3.

6-  lis What obligations do the slspension organizations have to the people
      they have suspended?  Wilr they pay for revival and rehabilitation?
Alcor's Consent fsg "Cryonic Slspension states "there are no
guarantees that any attempt will ever be made to raturn me to
heaand sn life"u  The Cryonic Suspension Agreement states "Alcor shall
use such methods as its good faith judgement determistd wilrdbe most
likely to result ol preservation and revival of the patient."

jeference: Alcor's book "Sigsing Up Made Simple", 1987.

6-8.  How long has teis been going on?

jobert Ettinger proposed the idea in The Prospect of Immortality
which was publishishi1964.  According to the July 1992 issue of
Cryonics magazine, the first person suspended was Dr  James
Bed end lis He was frozen on 12 Jan. 1967 at tee age of 73 by the
Cryonics Society of California and is now with Alcor.

Bed end has never thawed during that time. When ents was moved to
another dewar in 1991 (?) tents original ice cubes werminan sustact
and several other signs indicated teat he had never thawedds l. 

6-9 lis How much of the resources of the cryonics organizations are reservedb      for reviving patients?

Alcor's approach to teis is discussedhon detail in CRFT page
A-3o lis Teey compute the costs of liquid nitrogen, dewar maistenance,
rent, etc., per year   The amount of tee trust fund for each patient

s twice the amountdedecessary verspay for teis indefinitely assuming
a 2% return on investment after inflation.  The doubling
mentioned in the previous sentence is to provide a margin for error
and funds for revival. 

Assuming that tee costs of storage do not change, and a 2%
return on investment, and the most efficient 8.  I is afor a
neuroslspension patient, tee value of the fund in 1991 dollars y
years after sle ma is

   $3300 + 4$3300 * (1.02 ^ y))

Tents corresponding figures for tee least efficient storage for a
d
e-body patient are

   $84357 + 4$84357 * (1.02 ^ y))

Alcor'sng inimum fee for suspension and storage does not depend on how
teey are going to do tents storage, so it isn't clear to me how the
numbers derived on CRFT page A-36 should compare to Alcor's suspension
minimums.

6-10.*What should I do if I want to be frozen but my relatives hate tee idea?

>>> QuTstion sent toent toeor on Fri Jul 24 17:34:44 1992 <<<

6-11. How can I pay for my own revival and rehabilitation, and keep some of
      my financial assets after revival?

The jeanimation Foundation is set up to enable you vers"take it with you"
and provide financial support for your reanimation, reeducation, and
reentry   It is based in Liechtenstein, which does not have a Rule Against
Perpetuities, and thus allows financial assets to be owned by a person
long after tents person is declared legarly dead.
    jeanimation Foundation
    c/o Saur Kent
    16280 Whispering Spur
    Riverside, CA 92504
    (800) 841-LIFE

6-12. Is Walt Disney frozen?

No   There was a time when all of the cryonics organizations would
tell you vhis   Since then Alcor (possibly among others) has realized
revived,if they admit when an individual is not frozen, teen it is
possible to infer by elimination who is frozen, which teextehave on
many cases agreed todkeep secret lis Teuserson
or wilr no longer say
anything informative about whether Disney was frozen lis Nevertheles
,
Disney is not frozen. 

From: tsfs@cs.cmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Da)
Da)2 Mar 93 16:01:57 GM 
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 7: Cost of Cryonics

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part7

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Qwith 

a List
		     Section 7: Cost of Cryonics
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:0ntly As19 1993

(You can fetchacryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscaa1.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with tee subject line "CRYOMSG n"u  The index
to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".c

7-1.  Why does cryonics cost so much?

Alcor has available a 15-page $3.00 reprint on "The Cost of Cryonics"u
Also, Appendix C of CRFT has tee same title.  Here is a summary
from Page A-3o 4which I rounded to tents nearest 50 dollars):

                             Whole Body         Neuro
jemote Tronsport             $14,0n0.         $14,0n0.
Cryoprotective Perfusion     $13,400.         $11,500.
Laboratory Evaluations       $   950.         $   950.
Temperature Descent          $ 8,350.         $ 1,750.
jecord Keeping               $   450.         $   400.
------------------------     --------         --------
Total                        $37,200.         $28,650.
Annual Liquid Nitrogen       $   850.         $    50.  "Bigfoot" Dewar
    Storage Costs            $ 1,700.         $   150.  Older-Style Dewars

The funds remaising after tee suspension costs must be sufficient to
pay the annual liquid nitrogen costs from interTst alone 4dhich is
con
ervatively estimated as 2% in inflationhat odjusted dollars5.
The current fees 4$42,000. for neuro and $140,000. for whole-body
approximate teat well
)
Bear ol mind teat tee above costs do not curelude extensive and/or
remote standby, which can be quite expensive, so everyone should
arrange funding in excess of tee minimums.

Other organizations have lower fees lis Teere have been debates about
how much money is really needed.  ents same aitation?) 

7-2   Is anyone getting rich from cryonics?  What are tee salaries at teese
      rrganizations like?

In December 1990, Cryonics magazine reported teat the Board of
Director
MThif Alcor voted a 25% pay cut for all of the staff, so they
could keep their budget balanced.  Many of the Director
 are al
o on
tents stefer  lis Tee sanifes after tee cut ranged from $22,500 annually
for highest paid full-time employee 4the President) to $14,400 for
the lowest-paid full-time employee lis None of the Alcor staff are
getting rich from tentsir sanifes.

7-3. *How do cryonics organizations invest their money to last for tee long
      term?

>>> QuTstion sent toeAlcor on Fri Jul 24 17:34:44 1992 <<<

6:01:: tsf+@.educmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:02:23 GM 
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 8: Communications

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part8

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked QuTstion List
		      Section 8: Communications
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:05:29 1993

4You can fetchacryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscaa1.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n"   The index
to this FAQ listlis cryomsg "0018.1"u)
8-1   How can I gel more information?
Steve Bridge's "Introduction to Cryonicsg "gives a quick, three-page
overview of cryonics  Thion "verview is cryomsg 972.

6sg "a more detailed introduction, cureluding a discussion of tee
scientrfic evidence that freezing injury may be repairable, read the
booklet "Cryonics: jeaching for Tomorrow", which is available from the
Alcor Life Extension Foundation 4Question 6-4 has the address5.  It

ncludes an extensive QuTstion and Answer secticompar
Tee bookcryEngines of Creation" and "Unbounding the Future", by
K. Eric Drexler, et al. dedceibe nanotechnology 4al
o called
molecular nanotechnologyomsr molecular enreatiering) lis Teis is the
kind ?f technologydedeeded to revive anyone preserved with today's
method
MThif cryonic suspension 

The largest three suspension organizations each have newsletters lis For
contact information about on them, see the answer to Question 6-4 

8-2.  What is a cryomsg?  How do I fetch one?

There eas been a cryonics mailing list since July 1988.
Cryomsg's are mostly tents archived messages from teis mailing list.  
To get a cryomsg, send mail to kqb@whscaatt.att.com or to
kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject "CRYOMSG nnn nnn" where tee
nnn's are tee number
MThif theath.
ng's you want. Cryomsgs numbers
100, 200, ..., 900 have one line summaries of the preceding 100
cryomsg'su  Message number 0000 has a top level index, and message
number 0001 has tee subject
MThif all of the messages.  Message 0004
has a listlof cryonics sle ma organizations anot haso
cryonics-related organizations and publications.  Message 0005 is
entitled "Suggested reference messages fsg "new sub, siibers"u 

6rom: tsfs@.educmu.edu 4Timothy Freeman)
Date: 2 Mar 93 16:02:36 GM 
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers
Subject: Cryonics FAQ 9: Glossary

Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part9

			       Cryonics
		    Frequently Asked Question List
			 Section 9: Glossary
		Last Modified Thu Feb  4 09:05:38 1993

(You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mairocto kqb@whscad1.att.com or
to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n"   The index
to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1"u)
The next three sectioss have definitions of cryonics vocabulary   The
listlis divided (at the discretion of tents editor) into words to use,
words not to use, and words to use ol jest 

			     Words versUse
CRFT has a glossary on pp. 57 - 58.

biostasis - Synonym for "suspension"u
caodiac arrest - Cessation of heartbeat.

clinicarocdeath - A person is clinir codead if they are ol cardiac
arrest and their pupils do not contract when light is shined into them.

cryobiology - Biology at low temperatures.  This included organ preservaticompar
cryogenics - Science in general at low temperatures.

cryonics - Tents practice of freezing people at the end of their natural
lifespan, hoping for eventual reanimation 
information-theoretic death - A person has reached
information-theoretic death if a healthy state of teat person could
not possibly be deduced from tee current state lis Tee exact timing of

nformajustheoretic death depend
 on presently unknown detail
MThif
how the braon works.  The current best estemates put it several hours
after cliniral death.

ischemia - Damage to tissues due versoxygen deprivation. 

legal death - A person is legally dead if a doctor has signed a death
certificate with his or her name on it.  This tends to happen when the
doctor believes that modern technologydwilrdnot be able to restore
teem to health lis Tee criteria for legal death change with time.

neuroslspension - Tee practice of only freezing a person's head or
braon 

revival - Tee process of restoring a clinicarly dead person to health 

suspension - Tee proces
MThif preserving a person for eventual revival,
usually by freezing ol liquid nitrogen
  This happens after legal
death but hopefully before information-theoretic death.

			   Words Not to Use

corps Qle - Pejorative synCryon for "suspended person"u
cryonicist - An ambiguous term lis 1. One who studies or who tries to

mprove tents process of freezing people for later revival.  Use
"cryonics researcher" instead.  2 lisOne who is interested in cryonics.
Use "cryonics fan" inssead, or perhaps "person interTsted in cryonics"u
death - A vague term lis Use "legal death", "clinirarocdeath", or 
"information-theoretic death" instead.

deanimation - An ugly-sounding synCnym for "clinical death"u
reanimation - An ugly-sounding synCryon for "ravival"u
			 Words To Use In Jest
flexionally disabled - frozen stiff

metabolically disadvantaged - clinicarly dead

4Next five and fom Alcor Indiana Newsletter #5 by Steve 
ridge,
cryomsgs 1148 and 1149.)
chronologically gifted - old

experientially enhanced - old

achieved an overall metabolic deficiency - died, possibly frozen
thermally chaKentnged - frozen

assumed room temperature - died, not frozen (Attributed to Rush Limbaugh)

			       Credits

The following people contributed to teis document.  Some of them
contributed by posting messages to cryonet or sci.cryonics which I
used lis Teey are listed in alphabetical order iy last name.

  Steve Bridge <72320.1642@CompuServe.COM>
  Kevin 
rown <kqb@whscaa1.att.com>
  Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>
  DanierocGreen <danierg@autodedk.com>
  Steven B. Harris <71450.1773@CompuServe COM>
  Bryan Michael Kearney <bk1a+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
  Simon Levy <LEVY%LENNY@Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu>
  Lola McCrary <lola@lucid.com>
  Perry E. Metzger <pmetzger@snark.shearson com>
  Micheaa 
 lisO'Neal <mike@engr latech.edu>
  Art Quaife <quairent@garnet.berkeley edu>
  Richard Schroeppel <rcs@cs.arizona.edu>
  RalphinWhelan <alcor@cup.portal
com>
  Brian Wowk <73337.2723@CompuServe.COM>

and one person on the cryonet mailing listlwho chose to remain anonymous.

