
Computer underground Digest    Wed  Mar 19, 1997   Volume 9 : Issue 21
                           ISSN  1004-042X

       Editor: Jim Thomas (cudigest@sun.soci.niu.edu)
       News Editor: Gordon Meyer (gmeyer@sun.soci.niu.edu)
       Archivist: Brendan Kehoe
       Shadow Master: Stanton McCandlish
       Shadow-Archivists: Dan Carosone / Paul Southworth
                          Ralph Sims / Jyrki Kuoppala
                          Ian Dickinson
       Field Agent Extraordinaire:   David Smith
       Cu Digest Homepage: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest

CONTENTS, #9.21 (Wed, Mar 19, 1997)

File 1--Cyber Angels' Antiporn ("FACES") Database Dies (From WIRED)
File 2--Apologies for  Duplicates of the last issue
File 3--STUDY ON CONTENT-RELATED INTERNET LIABILITY
File 4--Japanese Internet Users May Need Magician
File 5--InfoWarCon 7 ~~ Call for Papers ~~ (fwd)
File 6--Re - Maryland online "harassment" bill
File 7--Coos Bay search and seizure
File 8--Re: File 6--Cyber Promotions, Evil, Evil, EVIL
File 9--Re: CuD 9.15 - "Do-Gooders" ??
File 10--Cu Digest Header Info (unchanged since 13 Dec, 1996)

CuD ADMINISTRATIVE, EDITORIAL, AND SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION APPEARS IN
THE CONCLUDING FILE AT THE END OF EACH ISSUE.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:38:18 -0600
From: cudigest@SUN.SOCI.NIU.EDU(Computer underground Digest)
Subject: File 1--Cyber Angels' Antiporn ("FACES") Database Dies (From WIRED)

((MODERATORS' NOTE: It appears that the CyberAngels "FACES"
project has been cancelled, according to the following
report from WIRED NEWS' Janelle Brown)).
CuD readers and others contributed to the ill-conceived

From Wired News Archives:

   Cyber Angels' Antiporn Database Dies
   by Janelle Brown

   2:57pm  14.Mar.97.PST The Internet is chock-full of sexual
   predators, pedophiles, and free hard-core porn, and according
   to the Cyber Angels, not enough is being done about it. Thus,
   the self-described "Internet safety organization" spent six
   months developing the FACES project, a database of information
   to help identify children who might be suffering sexual abuse.
   But the recent demise of the ambitious project, which would
   have included cropped pictures of children believed to be
   victims of porn, highlights serious concerns about netizens
   taking matters into their own hands.

  ..................

   The database project, which would have been publicly
   accessible, had become entangled in moral and legal issues.
   "Although we were able to build a small database of faces,
   most child porn available is unsuitable for the project," says
   [Colin "Gabriel" ] Hatcher.  "The children are in distress so
   you can't get a straight face from it, or the pictures are too
   old - they are from the 1970s and the kids are adults now."

  ..................

   While Hatcher says that the issues brought up in the Cu Digest
   debate were ones that the Cyber Angels were aware of, the
   anger that surrounded news of the project highlights netizen
   concerns about citizen-organized Net-policing. The CyberAngels
   say they are simply trying to help federal authorities by
   pointing out "probable cause," but some feel that an
   organization of thousands citizens out to patrol the Net with
   quasi-cop intentions is troublesome. It is the same criticism
   some have of the Guardian Angels patrolling city streets for
   crime.

  ...........................

   With the dissolution of the project, the Cyber Angels will
   refocus their attention on education issues, aiding netizens
   who need help, and continuing to patrol Usenet to prevent
   trouble. With over 200 requests for help coming in each week,
   they've got plenty to keep them busy - as well as the
   continuing public debate about whether they are qualified to
   do what they are doing.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:15:57 +0900 (JST)
From: Cu Digest <cudigest@sun.soci.niu.edu>
Subject: File 2--Apologies for  Duplicates of the last issue

Some groups received duplicates of the last issue, the
overview of the Internet in Japan. Because of its length,
it was inconvenient for some folks, and we apologize for the
miscue. Thanks to readers for pointing it out. Here's Jim
Schweizer's explanation of the cause:

   ===============

> I'm sorry about causing an extra edition of the
> Japanese-Internet cu-digest. Apparently the Linux XFMail program
> doesn't strip the header from forwarded mail and this caused a
> second copy of my forward to the Tokyo Linux Users Group to go
> to CU-DIGEST subscribers.
>
> Please accept my apology and if appropriate pass it along to
> other subscribers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim Schweizer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:31:03 -0500
From: Dov Wisebrod <dov@CATALAW.COM>
Subject: File 3--STUDY ON CONTENT-RELATED INTERNET LIABILITY

The study is now available on Industry Canada's site in Adobe PDF
format.

The study (a 300+ page/1004Kb document - including a 23 page/79Kb
summary) was commissioned in the summer of 1996.  It provides an
analysis of how Canadian law applies to content-related Internet
liability in the areas of copyright and trade-marks, privacy and
defamation, obscenity, child pornography and hate literature.

You can access it at:

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/nme (English)
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/nmd (French)

Dov Wisebrod         dov@catalaw.com               www.CataLaw.com/dov
   11:52          Digital Doomsday Clock           www.CataLaw.com/doom
  CataLaw     Metaindex of Law and Government      www.CataLaw.com
   LoGIC   Legal Group for the Internet in Canada  www.CataLaw.com/logic

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 02:07:35 -0500
From: Ari Herzog <ari@ici.net>
Subject: File 4--Japanese Internet Users May Need Magician

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970304/tech/stories/plugged_1.html
Taken from Reuters story
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tuesday March 4 10:06 AM EST

Japanese Internet Users May Need Magician

By Russell Blinch

TOKYO - "What is a wizard?"

It was a question asked by Aya Ishihara, general manager of a Japanese
Internet
service provider run by SSK & RCY Corp., during a recent conversation.

Microsoft and other companies have recently introduced "Wizards" --
programs that,
seemingly with the powers of a magician, can help frustrated personal
computer users
load programs and undertake other tasks.

While the 29-year-old Ishihara had an inkling of what the Wizard metaphor
was all
about, her question illustrated why the Japanese are having trouble signing
on to the
Internet.

So, like, wow, they don't know how to surf over to Yahoo on their browsers
and hot link
to some really cool homepage?

"Many Japanese are against these kinds of terms," Ishihara said.

It may seem ironic that a country that has flabbergasted the world with so
many
electronic innovations would be trailing other countries when it comes to
the Internet.

But many Japanese Internet players believe their country is badly trailing
the United
States, Canada and even Europe.

"Compared with the U.S., it's really behind -- maybe three years," said
Masahiro Inoue,
president of Yahoo Japan.

Internet idiom was a challenge for just about all users when they first
took their baby
steps on the World Wide Web. It could be argued, however, that North Americans
familiar enough with the surf -- or snow -- boarding culture probably had a
leg up when it
came to adapting to the Web culture.

According to the Japan Economic Almanac, there are one million Japanese Web
surfers, which is absurdly low for a highly-industrialized country of 125
million.

Even Canada, with a population of 30 million, has been estimated to have a Web
surfing populace of more than double that.

Another barrier to the Internet looming as large as Mount Fuji is the high
cost of Web
surfing in Japan.

The Japanese do not have the luxury of a flat rate system for local phone
charges, as
surfers enjoy in North America. Instead they must pay a charge per three
minutes on a
local call. So when an Internet charge is factored in along with local
tolls, the cost of
fairly moderate surfing can run skyward.

An official at the Canadian embassy in Tokyo explained that it was easy to
incur a
charge of more than 12,000 yen ($100) a month for Internet use -- which is
about three
to four times what a North American might pay for access.

Nevertheless, a number of Japanese players don't believe they can afford to
move to
flat rate pricing, because it might lead to other problems. They seem well
educated in
the woes America Online has been facing with congested access to their
network.

"Maybe flat rate will lead to a chaotic solution," mused Ishihara, who at
the same time
saw the need for lower fees.

There are many signs, however, that the pace of Net development is about to
speed up
significantly here.

A number of Japanese players in the Web community liken the situation to
the use of
wireless phones.

Initially, the West was far ahead in the head count of street corner phone
yakkers, but
now it looks like the Japanese have taken a collective decision that
miniature, wireless
phones are indispensable tools for the urban dweller.

The phones really took off in 1995 with the introduction of the Personal
Handy Phone
system (PHS) and a pricing structure that many realized was too good to
pass up in
Japan's highly regulated communications system.

Many online players believe the Internet might be ready for a similar
explosion in
demand.

Officials at Fujitsu Ltd. and Nippon Telegraph and Telephone believe that
there are
probably more than five million Japanese Netizens when the number of people
are
counted that log on from the office.

People are using the Net at lunchtime, perhaps largely because it is still
too expensive
for many Japanese to maintain accounts from home.

Many Japanese Internet players are very optimistic that use of the Internet
in the office
will grow and spread to the home. And it would be this kind of growth that
might spur a
kind of collective wisdom or even "wizardry" from Japan -- as we have seen
many times
in the past from this country -- that will result in innovation benefiting
not only Japan but
the entire Internet community.

-- For ideas or comments on the weekly Plugged In column contact:
russell.blinch+reuters.com.

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

**********************************************************************
Ari Herzog			
ari@ici.net

Ari's Simple List of Record Labels
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~aherzog/links/rec_lab.html

"Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung."
			-- Voltaire

"We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams."
			-- Arthur O'Shaugnessey
					


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:26:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "noah@enabled.com" <noah@enabled.com>
Subject: File 5--InfoWarCon 7 ~~ Call for Papers ~~ (fwd)

From  -Noah

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date--Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:58:44 -0500
From--"Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject--InfoWarCon 7 ~~ Call for Papers ~~


                       Defensive Information Warfare
                          And Systems Assurance
                    For Community, Company and Country
                           September 11-12, 1997
                     Sheraton Premier, Tysons Corner, VA

                              Call for Papers


         Sponsors:
         National Computer Security Association
         http://www.ncsa.com
and
         Winn Schwartau, Interpact, Inc.
         http://www.infowar.com
         http://www.info-sec.com

         Interested parties from government, law enforcement, academia,
         corporations and individuals from all nations are invited to submit
 papers
         or concepts for papers/presentation to be given at InfoWarCon 7 and
         published on http://www.infowar.com. The following Solutions Oriented
         topics are of special interest to the conference, but all papers will
 be
         considered:

         Case studies and real world successes are strongly encouraged.

         New technologies, systems, models and approaches to provide higher
         levels of information and systems assurance in a world where conflict
 has
         moved to Cyberspace. (Commercial, Law Enforcement and
         Government).

              Detect and Response Solutions
              Denial of Service Methods and Protection
              New Info-Sec Models for Local and Global Enterprises
              Demonstrations of New Emerging Technologies
              Encryption, Access Control, and Identification

         The technical and social convergence of the military, law enforcement
         and private sectors in the interest of National Security: defensive
         mechanisms, policies and cooperative efforts.. (Commercial and
         Government)

              Electronic Civil Defense Policies
              Alternative National Defense and Intelligence Mechanisms
              National vs. International Policy Development
              Educating Populations for Support
              Dealing with the Non-nation State Actor

         Cooperative legal, ethical and political means by which to interest,
 create
         and sustain international cooperation for the discovery and prosecution
 of
         computer crimes and cyber-terrorism. (Law enforcement and
         Government)

              Redefining the State
              Case Studies of Prosecution; Successful and Not
              Corporate Vigilantism and Self-Preservation
              Electronic Bills of Rights for Nation States
              United Nations of Cyberspace
              Legal Conundra

         Multi-media presentations, real-time scenarios or gaming, audience
         participation and highly interactive topics are more likely to be
 accepted.
         English is the conference language and all sessions will be
 unclassified.

         Submissions are to be in Word 6.0 or greater, Powerpoint, or other
         popular formats, sent by email to: betty@infowar.com

         Submission Deadline: May 16, 1997
         Acceptance Date: June 9, 1997

         For complete information on attendance:
         Registration: Conferences@ncsa.com
         Sponsorships: Sponsors@ncsa.com

Questions/Help:  betty@infowar.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:20:33 -0500
From: Hitchcock <AreaWoman@JUNO.COM>
Subject: File 6--Re - Maryland online "harassment" bill

I was dismayed to read that this bill is being thought of as
censorship -- it is not.  What Mr. Jackson failed to mention in
his article is that I testifed ON BEHALF of House Bill 778.  Yes,
some of the words are not applicable and will probably be struck
from the final bill if it is passed, but I feel strongly that
online harassers MUST be punished.  All you have to do is go to
the web site in my signature below to see what I've been through
and I had no one I could contact for help.  The local police
couldn't help me, the FBI couldn't -- no one.  So this bill WILL
help victims of online harassment, even if it means starting with
those who harass via e-mail.  I intend on seeing this kind of
statute pass, not only in Maryland, but nationwide if I have to.

Jayne Hitchcock

Read about an Internet Harasser:
http://www.geocities.com/~hitchcockc/woodside.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:04:27 -0500 (EST)
From: baby-X <baby-x@slowdog.com>
Subject: File 7--Coos Bay search and seizure

I'm not in a position to tell you a sense of this statement's validity or
whatnot. But I was asked to pass it along, and figured that if there's
anything there, one of you guys might be able to find out, if so inclined.


baby-X

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From--Killarney <kill@millennium-cafe.com>
Date--Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:48:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject--the press release (fwd)


this happened at this place down in Coos Bay over the weekend. My friend,
who lives there, wants to help spread the word, and get this out to as
many people as possible to get the media interested. Forward it to whoever
you know.

kill


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date--Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:28:42 -0800
From--Scott <szaz@harborside.com>
To--Andraea.Carman@blitz.emc.maricopa.edu
Cc--kxm281@psu.edu
Subject--the press release

Ok,here's the press release about all that's been going on here,whether you
were expecting it or not. If you could do me and everyone here huge,huge
favors by passing this on to anyone you can,media where you are or
net-connected people, I and others,especially the guy accused,would really
really appreciate it. Later.

Background Fact Sheet on the Raid on 700 Commercial Ave, Coos Bay, Oregon on
4/6/96 @ 0800am

The Issues:

Where is the line drawn between a legally issued (though flawed) physical
search warrant for a single individual's computer files and/or
non-electronic evidence when it is executed in an computer-networked
multi-residential building.

A Synopsis:

A contingent of local Coos Bay, Oregon and State Police, in search of
evidence in an alleged computer crime during December 1996 against Koala
Computers of  Coos Bay, executed a search warrant at 700 Commercial Avenue
in Coos Bay on 06Mar97.

The search warrant (copies available on request) served by Oregon State
Police Detective  In Charge, Randy Becker, initiated a total building search
lasting eight and one half hours, including the private residences of the
twenty people living there, even though the warrant lists only one resident,
Dan Parker, as a suspect in the alleged crime and is addressed only to Mr.
Parker.

The four story ex-hospital houses a hi-tech community and staff for a
future, not-for-profit, cultural center and is slated to be the new home for
the CyberCat Cafe, a computer coffee house recently forced to vacate its
previous locale due to a notice to vacate their prior location without a
written cause.  Additional technologically-based businesses have applied to
lease space to operate from the location once zoning issues are settled with
city officials.

The in-house computer network in question was installed in late February
1997 and provides Internet connectivity to the residents as well as access
to a shared printer.  It does not provide file server functionality which is
the  the ability to share files between computers.  Mr. Parker was attached
to the network for a total of three days prior to the raid.

Although Mr. Parker neither owned nor had access to the other computers on
the network, inhabitants were detained in their residences until they were
removed during the search, which entailed the copying of hard drives and
other storage media as well as a physical search of the individual premises.

Vacant rooms in the building where the network does not extend and which
contain no computers were also searched. No residents were allowed to
witness the search of their living quarters or property. Additionally, one
corporate entity in the building, after threatening legal action subsequent
to a physical search, had their computers left untouched.

Floor plans detailing the commercial and residential space were submitted to
Coos Bay city officials as part of a zoning review three weeks prior to the
raid.  The same plans, which provide both the inhabitant's name and their
location within the building have been available on a web page since early
January 1997.

Additional Background:  CyberCat Cafe

Owner:	Andrea Wasson
		700 Commercial Avenue
		Coos Bay, Oregon xxxxxx
		(541) 269-7491
		e-mail:  admin@cybrcat.com

Business:  The CyberCat Habitat , an Internet Coffee House  (currently
closed) struggling through zoning issues to reopen in a new location in Coos
Bay, Oregon as the only all ages business that offers indoor activities to
area teens and their families, in a well supervised, drug and alcohol-free
environment).

History:  Opened April 1996 at 184 Market Avenue in Coos Bay, Oregon,
offering computer access, espresso, coffee, soft drinks, juices, and
prepackaged snacks, plus acoustical entertainment on Friday/Saturday
evenings, and Saturday afternoons.  Customer base highly varied,
including teens, college age, siblings, parents, senior citizens.  In other
words, people of various racial, ethnic, sexual orientation, physical
abilities, and economic backgrounds within the community.  The CyberCat was
immediately discovered by area youth and was busy from its inception.

 Pressure is applied by several area police officers within
a couple months of opening for Ms. Wasson, as a business owner, to assume
responsibility for  controlling the actions or suspected actions of any and
all teens in the general area of the business, regardless of their
participation or lack of participation in the business as customers. Several
initiatives by Ms. Wasson for a joint effort between the CyberCat and
members of City Hall to find a solution for this problem are politely but
bureaucratically ignored prior to receiving a notice to vacate and being
forced to close the doors in October 1996.

Several police "encounters"  with both  younger customers and  the owner of
the business, lead to a filing a complaint with the city of harassment
against the police department after these encounters directly or indirectly
provoked the notice to vacate from the landlord at  that location.  The
building manager refused an actual written reason for the lease termination
but implied that the interest in CyberCat activities by the Coos Bay Police
Department (CBPD)  was a determining factor.

An internal investigation of the complaint found that neither CyberCat,
certain customers, nor the CBPD was guilty of any wrong doing and that all
of us were "mere victims of different people's perceptions".  Statements making
reference to interviews done during that investigation proved to be less
than truthful, as many who were listed as interviewed in the process of that
investigation claim they were never approached for interviews.  Letters of
support bearing witness to the harassment events which were sent to city
hall during the investigation were ignored.

Following the CyberCat's closing, Ms. Wasson and several volunteering
residents set out to renovate a large, unproductive building located at 700
Commercial Avenue to create a not-for-profit,  cultural activity center for
area youth, a project directly motivated by experiences encountered through
interaction with area youth at the coffeehouse.

The volunteers range in age from 18-67, and number at thirteen adults and
three children.  Additionally, four people related to the current building
owners with whom Ms. Wasson is negotiating the sale, also reside within the
building.

Each person/ or family has independent living quarters within the building,
clearly defined in their mailing addresses and on a floor map posted on the
Internet on a public access page which until the first week in March 1997,
also outlined the group's intentions for the building.  This page is being
updated after receipt of a notice of zoning issues was received from the
city regarding the need for a conditional use permit in order to reopen the
coffeehouse here.  However,  the basic information remains up on the web.

Additional Background:  The Raid

Pertinent questions are:

If this warrant was to secure evidence against one person, why were the
rights , personal property and/or computer files of 19 other people in the
building impacted and in my opinion, their civil rights violated?

Why did the warrant offer no definition of the crimes suspected and more
specific information of the evidence that was sought clearly outlined?

This "investigation" had been ongoing for over 2 months according to State
Police Press releases, why were no female officers dispatched when it was
known that women would be included in the raid?

Why was a generic search warrant issued against a whole building when
separate living quarters were well defined in a publicly accessible forum,
in the possession of city officials and also explained first hand to the
officers on the scene?

Why were people within the building refused the right to basic privacy to
get dressed when ordered from their beds, forced to be publicly humiliated
while dressing in front of officers on the scene? If all residents were to
be impacted by the warrant, why were ALL residents not included and given
copies of the warrant?

Where does the 4th amendment rights regarding search and seizure stop in
regards to a network connection to the Internet when no file sharing
capabilities are built into that system?


Additional Background:  Dan Parker

 It is interesting to note that there is a current conflict in process
between Dan and Koala Computers, his prior employer and the company filing
the charges of unauthorized access of a system against him.

All of his personal files which were maintained on an in-house terminal at
the business (which they claim were deleted through remote access in
December 1996) were in fact deleted prior to his leaving their employment.

Dan has been seeking payment from them for software programs he developed
for them under a separate contract since his employment was terminated and a
letter demanding payment for these programs was issued to them via
registered mail approximately one month ago after several personal contacts
demanding
payment failed.  He has been aggressively seeking resolution via legal channels
regarding this dispute.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:51:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Beust <beust@ILOG.FR>
Subject: File 8--Re: File 6--Cyber Promotions, Evil, Evil, EVIL

Danny Burstein <dannyb@panix.com> writes:

: "What people are doing is jumping around from one (Internet
: provider) toanother, and they don't have a secure home. We're
: going to give them a home," said Cyber Promotion founder Sanford
: Wallace.

      It seems very scary at first sight, but when I think of it, I
      have the impression it will help users such like us to filter
      this junk away.

      The main problem with spam is that unless it titles some
      well-known Subject--(uppercase, $ signs, "money", "read this",
      etc...) or emanates from a notorious spamming domain, it is
      impossible to filter it automatically. And while it only takes a
      second to read and hit "delete", it's still both money and time
      wasted.

      Now, the spam king (no capital) is saying all the spams will
      come from one same domain : his. Great ! On an individual basis,
      it will allow us to tune our filter software more accurately. On
      a broader basis (a whole domain, or an ISP), I am persuaded that
      sysadmins will be easily convinced to completely block receipts
      of mails from this (these) domain, avoiding users to pay for
      junk mail since it will never reach their mailbox.

      Now, there is a real threat behind all this, though : if the
      spam king realizes this, and decides to change regularly the
      domain from which spams are issued. Registering a new domain name
      say, each week, is a no-cost for a successful company, and I'm
      afraid he *will* be successful... Sigh.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:41 EDT
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Subject: File 9--Re: CuD 9.15 - "Do-Gooders" ??

From:	IN%"dryden@Radix.Net"  "Tracy S. Dryden" 10-MAR-1997 19:28:20.79

>>To the degree that "do-gooder" is treated negatively on CuD, it
>>is because of such phenomena as "we're from the government and
>>we're here to help you." Only organizations (e.g., the Red Cross)
>>with a history of competent, helpful action should be free from
>>this suspicion; neither the CyberAngels nor their parent
>>organization the Guardian Angels match this description.
>>Cooperation between the CyberAngels and such government
>>organizations.

(As long as I'm replying, I'd like to mention that I seem to have
accidentally deleted (including in the version sent to CuD) the last
section of that last sentence - it was supposed to have been
"Cooperation between the CyberAngels and such government organizations
as the FBI does not discourage the dread of the aforementioned
phenomenon.")

>The Red Cross (at least the American Red Cross) has many times been referred to
>as a "do-gooder" organization.  Additionally, it's actions have _not_ always
>been "competent and helpful."  A case in point: Many years ago my ex-wife used

[...]

>donations of money, with which they would buy _new_ clothing.  Even after all
>these years I still find this attitude appallingly "dim-witted," as well as
>wasteful - attitudes frequently attributed to so-called "do-gooder"
>organizations.

Thank you for this information; I will avoid thinking of the Red Cross as
competent in the future. In the specific context - namely, how the
phrase in question was _allegedly_ applied to CuDigest participants - my
definition, related to the imposition of regulations (or cooperation in
the imposition of regulations) for allegedly beneficial purposes, does
appear to still be valid.

>Be very careful when you start generalizing, and defining terms for people.

It is admittedly possible that "Gabriel" was instead meaning an accusation
against CuDigest participants for being suspicious of the _competencies_,
not intentions, of the CyberAngels. Given that he did not cite any
examples of opposition to _non-regulatory_ agency "do-gooding", this
interpretation would make his point even more invalid. (In other words,
he claimed that CuDigest participants were generally disparaging of
"do-gooding." If, by this, he accused CuDigest participants of a cynical
distrust of anyone trying to help (instead of my more specific
interpretation of anyone trying to help via regulation), he would need
to bring up examples of such alleged distrust when not dealing with
regulatory agencies and proponents.)

>Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons -
>For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

I prefer the "Wizards" variant, myself... :-}

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1996 22:51:01 CST
From: CuD Moderators <cudigest@sun.soci.niu.edu>
Subject: File 10--Cu Digest Header Info (unchanged since 13 Dec, 1996)

Cu-Digest is a weekly electronic journal/newsletter. Subscriptions are
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news group; on CompuServe in DL0 and DL4 of the IBMBBS SIG, DL1 of
LAWSIG, and DL1 of TELECOM; on GEnie in the PF*NPC RT
libraries and in the VIRUS/SECURITY library; from America Online in
the PC Telecom forum under "computing newsletters;"
On Delphi in the General Discussion database of the Internet SIG;
on RIPCO BBS (312) 528-5020 (and via Ripco on  internet);
and on Rune Stone BBS (IIRGWHQ) (860)-585-9638.
CuD is also available via Fidonet File Request from
1:11/70; unlisted nodes and points welcome.

         In ITALY: ZERO! BBS: +39-11-6507540
         In LUXEMBOURG: ComNet BBS:  +352-466893

  UNITED STATES: etext.archive.umich.edu (192.131.22.8) in /pub/CuD/CuD
                  ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4) in /pub/Publications/CuD/
                  aql.gatech.edu (128.61.10.53) in /pub/eff/cud/
                  world.std.com in /src/wuarchive/doc/EFF/Publications/CuD/
                  wuarchive.wustl.edu in /doc/EFF/Publications/CuD/
  EUROPE:         nic.funet.fi in pub/doc/CuD/CuD/ (Finland)
                  ftp.warwick.ac.uk in pub/cud/ (United Kingdom)


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Cu Digest WWW site at:
  URL: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/

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End of Computer Underground Digest #9.21
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