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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask......
2 ******************* REMOVED: 27 OCT 83 ******************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
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6                     THIS SYSTEM.
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23 ========================================
24 
25 HROTHGAR: WHAT ABOUT THE THOUSANDS IN INDIA WHO WILL ALSO DIE BECAUSE
26 OF THE EXCESSIVE OVERCROWDING AND VERY POOR LIVING CONDITIONS CAUSED
27 BY THEIR RELIGOUS BELIEFS?
28 AS FOR THE RAJ'S I EXPECT THE WHOLE THING TO DIE DOWN ONCE IT HAS FREACHED 
29 SATURATION. THIS HAPPENED WITH THE MOONIES AND MOST OTHERS IN THE PAST.
30 SOME MANAGE TO RID US OF THEMSELVES (REMEMBER JOHNESTOWN?). OTHERS MELD
31 INTO THE EBB AND FLOW OF SOCIETY. I SEE NO ONE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE QUACKERS,
32 YET THEY HAVE SOME VERY EXTREME VIEWS WHEN COMPARED TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
33 VIEW. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THEY DON'T GO AROUND T RYING TO BEAT THEIR
34 BELEIF INTO EVERYONE ELSE. FOR THIS I RESPECT THEM FAR MORE THEN SOME
35 OF THE MORE 'RESPECTED' RELIGIONS. 
36 JUST SAW MONTY PYTHONS 'MEANING OF LIFE', I FIND IT A MUCH BETTER STATEMENT
37 ON THESE THINGS THEN I COULD POSSIBLY MAKE. "EVERY SPERM IS SACRED"
38 ************* MONTY II ***********************************************
39 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
40 
41    "  They came to a huge tent fashioned of dragonet. Inside
42     the net was the Dragon Lady---a scintillatingly regal Queen
43     of her species. She reclined, half supine, in her huge nest
44     of glittering diamonds; whenever she twitched, the precious
45     stones turned up new facets, like the eyes of the Lord of
46     the Flies, reflecting spots of light dazzlingly. She switched
47     her barbed, blue tail about restlessly, growling, and arched
48     her bright red neck. It was really quite impressive. She had
49     been reading a book of Monster Comics, and seemed not too
50     pleased to be interrupted. "
51 Aaron
52 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
53 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
54 
55 Pam:  I believe you have presented a valid point in your PTRH (Pam's
56 Theory of Relativity of Happiness).  It raises the question (although I'm
57 not sure if that was your intention), "Is a redistribution of 'happiness'
58 really necessary for the Improvement of the human condition?"  Viscerally,
59 my answer is "yes", but logically,  I must reconcider.
60      In my younger (high-school & early college) days, I did considerable
61 research on a number of religions and philosophies, ranging from that of
62 the classical Greeks to Scientology.  I recall that Taoism was one of these
63 but due to the breadth of my studies, I'm afraid the depth was somewhat
64 limited, so I cannot say that I am familiar with any, with the exception
65 of Christianity.   I seem to recall though that it is somewhat of a
66 Buddhafied Confucianism.  Since Zen Buddhism is one of the two most pre-
67 valent religions in Japan and Confucianism has also played a significant
68 part in its historical development (Japan's, that is), I wouldn't be
69 surprised if the Japanese lifestyle does resemble those of the Taoist 
70 persuasion.
71      Thanks for your support of my statement regarding criticism of 
72 homeland.  I think this is a manifestaton of pride which extends not only
73 to nationalism but also to religious closed-mindedness, racism and etc.
74 Or perhaps it is false-pride based on insecurity which causes one to deny
75 the existence of other ways of life.  Only by doing so can he regard his
76 own as the best way.
77 
78 In Sane Scientist:  I am curious in what way you find the Japanese way
79 of life "regemented".  Please elaborate.
80 Also, Is there some significance to the space between "In" and "Sane"?
81 
82 BAD:  Although my opinions are based in part on published crime statistics,
83 they are also based on observation.  I wonder if you have made any such ob-
84 servations from which to formulate your viewpoint or if you simply believe
85 what you are told to believe.  I don't doubt that there are countries in
86 which the police/press corruption/ineffectiveness is greater than that
87 of the US, but I have no reason to believe that this applies to the world
88 in general.  I recognize that my observations are limited to a particular
89 country, and do not necessarily apply to all others, but they do seem to
90 indicate a vast difference in crime rates between that country and the
91 US, and suggest the possibility of at least a significant difference between
92 that of other countries and the US.
93 Anyway, here are a few of those observations.
94     Repeatedly, I have met Japanese persons (women included) who exhibit
95 not the slightest of fears about walking alone at night in Portland, 
96 Seattle, SF or whatever.  In Tokyo, or any Japanese city, there is extremely
97 little danger in doing so, and although most Japanese have heard that 
98 the same is not true of American cities, it is difficult for them to con-
99 ceptualize the extent of this difference until they see two or three local
100 news broadcasts or are themselves victimized.
101      The streets of many areas of Tokyo are lined with vending machines,
102 and many other areas at least have them at the street corners.  Why is 
103 this not the case in New York or LA?  The reason is obvious; they would be
104 vandalized on a daily basis making it rather unprofitable for the owners.
105      Mass transit is the major mode of transportation in Japan, but for
106 short-distance transportation to and from train/subway stations, bicycles
107 are popular.  The result is hundreds of bicycles parked at the station. 
108 It amazed me to find that none of them were locked.  Would you ever con-
109 sider leaving an unlocked bicycle in downtown Portland?
110      The same is true of houses; very few lock them at night.  In fact,
111 some don't even have locks.  Businesses usually are locked after hours,
112 but often, the locks are sufficient only to prevent someone from inad-
113 vertantly walking in after closing time, and are by no means burglar-proof.
114 Additionally many businesses have no burglar alarms whatsoever.  There
115 is no need.
116      As for the effectiveness of the police, I have never seen them in
117 action therfore I cannot attest to it.  The general populace seems to
118 have a rather high opinion of them, but I suspect they may be a little
119 rusty due to the Maytag Repairman Syndrome (lack of on-the-job experience).
120      Your comment/question regarding divorce is not quite legible; please
121 repeat.
122      I surmise from your "MA 7" comment, that accidental it was not.
123 I, therefore, retract previous apology.  As I said before, it is not 
124 necessary for everyone to reset their own margins; I can use anything 
125 greater than 75, which I suspect is true of any 40 or 80 columners.  So
126 the only time I have to reset margins, is after you set them at 7.  It is
127 not too difficult to reset them; but it is an unnecessary inconvenience.
128 Also there are a number of new users who have enough trouble figuring out
129 how to enter a message.  Why make it more difficult for them?  What sat-
130 isfaction do you derive from annoying others?
131 
132 Deborah:  You are correct in discriminating between Christians and 
133 Pseudo-christians.  Of the large number of "Christians" I have known,
134 however, none of them have fit into the former category.  I thought it 
135 extinct.  So when I speak of "Christians" I am actually referring to 
136 Pseudo-christians.  Real christians, should they still exist, probably
137 would not pose such a threat to society; but I still feel that they
138 could contribute more if they were to incorporate reality into their 
139 beliefs.
140 
141 Aaron, Alex, '.....', Leonard, Hrothgar, Monty II:  Response coming later.
142 Right now I must continue my pursuit of that elusive substance known as
143 "sleep".
144 
145                                                Dirty Ol' Ol' Ol' Man 3:43am
146 
147 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
148 WELL NOW!
149 THINGS DO LOOK DIFFERENT IN THE MORNING, DON'T THEY!
150 
151 DOM: I RAN INTO LINE 629 LAST NIGHT AND DESPITE MY BEST EFFORTS AT CON-
152 DENSING MY MESSAGE I THINK I WAS UNCLEAR. WHAT I MEANT TO SAY IS THIS. I
153 REALIZE THAT RELIGION IS AN ENDURING EVIL IN THIS WORLD IN MOST OF IT'S
154 FORMS. 200 FRENCH AND AMERICAN SOLDIERS DIED THIS WEEKEND BECAUSE OF THE
155 RELIGIOUS BELIEFS OF SOME ISLAMICS. A THOUSAND MUSLIM REFUGEES FROM JEWISH
156 PERSECUTION WERE MURDERED AT SABRA AND SHATILA BY CHRISTIANS BECAUSE OF
157 THEIR BELIEFS.
158    HOWEVER, THIS MADNESS USUALLY MANIFESTS ITSELF WITHIN A FRAMEWORK OF
159 TRIBALISM AND/OR NATIONALISM, AS WELL AS OTHER STRUCTURES. WE AS HUMAN
160 BEINGS SEEM TO NATURALLY FIT OURSELVES INTO OVERLAPPING GROUPS THAT ARE
161 EACH ORGANIZED INTO HIERARCHIES WITH ONE OR A FEW PEOPLE AT THE TOP. EACH
162 OF THESE HIERARCHIES WILL REQUIRE IT'S MEMBERS TO SUBSCRIBE TO SOME PAR-
163 TICULAR SET OF BELIEFS AND GOALS. SOMETIMES THESE GOALS AND BELIEFS ARE
164 QUITE INSANE, AND THE METHODS TAKEN TO ACHIEVE THE GOALS INNOCUOUS. SOME-
165 AN EXAMPLE OF THIS WOULD BE THE QUAKERS. SOMETIMES THE GOALS ARE LAUDABLE
166 (LOWER TAXES, MORE FREEDOM, MORE PROFITS FOR ROCKEFELLER AND ARMAND HAMMER)
167 AND THE METHODS TURN OUT TO BE INSANE(APPOINTING ANN BURFORD).
168    THESE HIERARCHIES EACH BRINGS WITH IT IT'S OWN SET OF PROBLEMS. EACH
169 PERSON USUALLY BELONGS TO DOZENS OF THE GROUPS, EVEN WITHOUT BEING AWARE
170 OF IT. 
171    THESE GROUPS REPRESENT POWER. WHEN ONE OF THEM IS DEFEATED, ANOTHER WILL
172 FILL THE POWER VACUUM. SO THE DEFEAT OF ONE OF THESE, EVEN WHEN FAIRLY 
173 NASTY, SUCH AS ONE OF THE PROSELITIZING RELIGIONS LIKE MANY CHRISTIAN SECTS.
174 WILL ONLY LEAD TO THE EMERGENCE OF ANOTHER. I BELIEVE THAT ORGANIZING
175 OURSELVES IN THIS WAY IS AN INESCAPABLE FACET OF HUMAN NATURE.
176    NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE JOINERS OR TRUE BELIEVERS TO AN EXTREME EXTENT. BUT
177 I BELIEVE ALL BUT A FEW LONE HERMITS SHARE IN THESE CHARACTERISTICS. 
178 AND HIGHER INTELLIGENCE IS SOME PROTECTION AGAINST THESE BELIEFS, BUT
179 EXAMPLES OF BRILLIANCE ARE EASY TO FIND AMONG RELIGIOUS PEOPLE AS WELL
180 AS ATHEISTS. NOTE THAT THE POPE SPEAKS OVER A DOZEN LANGUAGES. SO JUST
181 RAISING I.Q., E.G. BY GENETIC ENGINEERING, WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT, UNLES THE
182 RESULTS GO FAR BEYOND INTELLIGENCE AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.
183    SO WHAT CAN ONE DO?
184 
185    SEVERAL APPROACHES LEND THEMSELVES. FIRST WE SEE THAT THE MOST DAMAGE
186 OCURRS WHEN SEVERAL GROUPS ALIGN TO SUPPRESS A HEALTHY DIVERSITY (DIVISON
187 OF POWER). AN EXAMPLE OF THIS COULD BE THE CURRENT ALIGNMENT OF SO-CALLED
188 CONSERVATIVES. THIS ALLIANCE HAS GROUPS IN IT INTERESTED IN RADICAL
189 CHRISTIANITY, SEXUAL SUPPRESSION, A MILITARY FOREIGN POLICY, AND THE
190 PROMOTION OF RACISM AS WELL AS THE SMALL BUSINESS ENTREPRENURIAL ETHIC.
191 THIS GROUP WAS COHERENT ENOUGH FOR A FEW YEARS, BUT IS NOW LOSING POWER.
192    WHY? NOBODY DEFEATED ANY OF THE INDIVIDUAL GROUPS HOLDS ON THEIR MEMBERS.
193 BUT WEDGES HAVE BEEN DRIVEN BETWEEN THE GROUPS. FOR INSTANCE, NICPAC,
194 THE NATIONAL CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE, WAS DEALT A BLOW
195 WHEN GAY ACTIVISTS REVEALED THAT NICPACS LEADERS WERE HOMOSEXUAL. THIS
196 MOVE WAS CRUEL ON A PERSONAL LEVEL NO DOUBT, BUT IT SERVED TO EXPOSE THE
197 LEADERS AS HIPOCRITS. AND DROVE A WEDGE BETWEEN NICPAC AND THE RADICAL
198 CHURCH LEADERS. RONALD REAGAN HAS BEEN FORCED TO SIGN THE KING HOLIDAY
199 BILL, AND IN SO DOING HAS LOST THE SUPPORT OF THE EXTREME RACISTS IN THE
200 CONSERVATIVE CAMP.
201    IT IS THESE SMALL BLOWS THAT MAY DIVIDE A TOO-POWERFUL COALITION. THESE
202 SAME SMALL BLOWS FRAGMENTED THE LEFT IN THE SIXTIES AND SEVENTIES. REVAL-
203 ATIONS ABOUT THE MAFIA CONNECTIONS OF LABOR ORGNIZATIONS. THE WILLINGNESS
204 OF DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS TO GET INTO MAJOR WARS. THE ECONOMIC POLICIES
205 OF PRO-LABOR,PRO BIG BUSINESS THAT DROVE SMALL BUSINESMEN LIKE MYSELF
206 INTO THE HANDS OF THE WRETCHES ON THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE (ONLY TO BE
207 BETRAYED BY REAGONOMICS). 
208    SO WHEN AN EVIL COALITION ARISES, ONE MAY DRIVE THOSE LITTLE WEDGES.
209 
210    THERE ARE OTHER POLITICAL METHODS. BUT THOSE THINGS ARE PERHAPS TOO FAR
211 REMOVED FOR ME FROM THE LEVEL WHERE PEOPLE REALLY NEED HELP. I MENTIONED
212 THE 100,000,000 EXPECTED TO DIE IN AFRICA DURING THE NEXT TWO YEARS
213 BECAUSE OF THE WORLD WIDE RECESSION. THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE. IF YOU OR I
214 COULD SAVE JUST ONE LIFE, OR KEEP ONE CHILD FROM BECOMING MENTALLY 
215 RETARDED FROM LACK OF PROTEIN, WOULDN'T THAT BE MORE SATISFYING THAN
216 GIVING TALKS FOR THE AMERICAN ATHEISTS. ALL THOSE TALKS DO IS CONVINCE
217 THE AUDIENCE THAT ATHEISTS ARE BORING. I'VE HEARD THEM. SOMEONE
218 MENTIONED INDIA. THERE ARE MASSIVE PROBLEMS THERE AS WELL (SAYING THAT
219 THEY ARE ALL CAUSED BY RELIGION IS A GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION!)
220 
221    I'M TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS HERE MORE THAN FIGHTING THE
222 CAUSES. 
223 
224    THE FIRST THING YOU WILL NEED TO BE EFFECTIVE WILL BE AN ORGANIZATION,
225 OF COURSE! AT LEAST SO IT SEEMS. EVEN IF YOU WANT TO GET PERSONALLY INVOLVED
226 
227 MORE LATER.(GROANS..........)
228 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE RENEWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
229 P.S. DO NOT CONFUSE THE TAO WITH BUDDHISM. THEY ARE DEFINITELY TWO SEPARATE
230 THINGS. MANY BRANCHES OF BUDDHISM QUALIFY AS TRUE RELIGIONS, WHEREAS 
231 TAOISM IS A PRACTICE IN DAILY LIFE OF A PHILOSOPHY. I AM A TAOIST AS WELL
232 AS AN ATHIEST. SEE "THE TAO OF PHYSICS" BY FRITJOF CAPRA.
233 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
234 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]   1318   24-OCT-1983   [][][][][]
235 
236 I may have misunderstood something, but are we not somewhat responsible for the 
237 problems in Africa already ?  By indiscriminately decreasing the infant mortality
238 rate with modern medicine and teaching, we have opened the door to child and
239 teenager starvation.  I don't have the answer, but where do we stop the cycle.
240 
241 The death of over 200 marines in Lebanon leaves me very sad.  As a conservative,
242 I feel that Reagan's economic policies are OK.  His foreign policies make me glad 
243 I did not vote for him.  I am truly sorry that I in some small way was responsible
244 for the deaths through my inaction or lack of proper understanding.
245 
246 CYM: Re airwaves.  At last we agree on something.
247 
248 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]   djj   [][][][][][][][][][][][][]
249 
250 <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
251 
252     someone talk to me! maybe this flashy border will help............
253   
254 
255    well, Dragon Lady, is there any chance that I have stumbled
256   across the source of magic? Or just lucky coincidence???????
257 
258                                                             Aaron
259 <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
260 djj: ACTUALLY, THERE'S DAMN LITTLE MEDICINE AND TEACHING IN MOST PARTS OF
261 AFRICA. IN ANY CASE, LETTING THEM DIE AS TOTS SO THEY WOULDN'T DIE LATER
262 IS THE DING-AN-SICH OF DRACONIAN MEASURES.
263     BUT SPEAKING OF REACTIONS, HOW COME YOU SEEM SO HEARTLESS WHEN DISCUSS-
264 ING THE FATE OF MILLIONS OF BLACKS (SHOUILDN'T HAVE SAVED THEM IN THE FIRST
265 PLACE) AND SO SAD WHEN TALKING ABOUT EUROPEAN DEAD? SOLDIERS AT THAT?
266 
267 Aaron: WAS THAT BORDER A CARTIER?
268 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE THERAPUTIC FAILURE!!!!!!!!
269 
270 EXIT
271 
272 
273 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
274 I think the Marines should flood the enemy areas with sleeping gas and captre
275 all of the remaining enemies. That way they wouldn't be violating (at least
276 violently) their peace keeping mission and peace *would* come about. Of course,
277 the Soviets would complain about it, the enemies would complain about it,
278 and everyone who likes Marines to get killed or the U.S. to get killed would
279 complain about it, but wouldn't it show at least some people that the U.S.
280 meant business? Maybe it'd show me to keep my big mouth shut before some of
281 you out there close it for me...
282 - - - - - - - - Mad Quark - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
283 ===========================================
284 I like the idea of taking what you want... 
285 I'm big...really though you miss the
286 point of the whole thing i was trying to 
287 point out...If the money is responsible for the disease,pest.,famines,etc..
288 then those with the money are the ones responsible...not me
289 so why not concern myself with my own little 
290 world and how I can create in it what I want and not 
291 worry about anyone else...Christianity...drugs...
292 Is it not everyones right to the pursuit of happiness?
293 At least until you start infringing on others?  
294 Damn right!!  How can we condemn anything that makes 
295 a person happy as long as he keeps it to himself?
296 It is when it starts running over into my life 
297 that I find it repulsive...like I can see that crap on Cable...
298 ie. Oral Roberts:Jimmy Swaggert etc.  I think Jerry Falwell summed it up
299 real good:
300 "send me your $200 gift and I'll send you these four books"
301 ========================== a pathy =======================
302 
303 ..........................................
304 Anon, I call you a parasite because you use the benfits of society
305 and claim no payment is needed. This is theft.
306 Don't accuse religion for the wars in the Middle East. All factions there
307 have good claim to the land they are fighting for, as their ancestors were
308 thrown off it by force of arms. Unfortunately they also got it that way.
309 Among the many differences between the factions are their religions, or
310 their sects; these become handy handles to call them by. The religions all
311 preach peace and brotherhood, but the society teaches grab what you can,
312 and pay no heed to the cost to others. Note well that the guns come from
313 outside: the US, Russia, France, etc sell to all comers. If you nuke all
314 the arms suppliers the world would be a lot more peaceful, but very quiet
315 because there would be no people here, or anything else living.
316 DOM, I can't speak for Japan, I've never been there. But I can speak for
317 Korea, where they will steal you blind and then take your shirt when you
318 are not looking, or of Mexico where even the Federales are after you,
319 since a rich US touristas are good targets. On the other hand, there
320 is little crime in the traditional areas of Saudia Arabia. I don't want
321 to live there, though. In old Arabia crime doesn't pay. It is a small,
322 closed world where it is hard to get away with something, and hard to sell
323 what you stole, there is little to steal. In such a fixed society you 
324 cannot rise above your birth. Punishment when caught is severe and swift:
325 cut off the hand for theft, caught twice you starve as no one will feed
326 someone without hands. There is strong public acceptance of the system, and
327 the criminal is absolutely rejected. Both their religion and there society
328 stress honesty highly. All this is changing as the outside world enters
329 and breaks down there culture.
330 Aaron: what did you do to put a line at the middle of a clear screen?
331 Fortunately I missed what ever it was. I get tabs, but not form feeds.
332 Stay away from escape sequences, please.
333 Dom, again, you asked for a repeat on the comment about divorce. It is
334 available in the USA. Although you seem to beleive it evil, I see it as
335 only admitting the failure of two people to live together, and finding
336 a better life separately. Parting is grief, but living together and hating
337 it is worse. It si often not possible elsewhere.
338 As to the excising of drones, etc: the world's population can not keep
339 increasing forever. Do we want to kill a few million now, or wait until
340 billions die in the next big crash? Not a pretty choice, but ignoring it
341 is choosing the latter.
342 ///////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
343 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
344 
345  no escape sequences, BAD, just mirrors (or LF's, since I can guess that
346 whoever gets the tabs is probably working on a 25 line machine....quite
347 harmless.......if anyone had the real dedication to, they could make
348 my equipment here light up like a christmas tree....all '232 controlled)
349 
350  if tabs are OK, I will continue using them. But how about LF's??
351 TEST 1 (what does your machine do?)   a "Form Feed"
352 
353 end test 1
354 TEST 2 (30 line feeds)
355 
356 end test 2
357 the effect of the FF will vary with the PX setting...so I would guess
358 that it isn't teribly reliable....yet LF's may be a good way to conserve
359 space on the system.....you can put up to 127 LF's on a single line....
360 
361 any opinions/comments????
362 Aaron
363 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
364 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
365 
366 Ok, where was I.........
367 
368 Aaron:  When you were incapacitated with modemitis, I related my views
369 regarding the relationship between the doctrines of Christianity (which also
370 applies to the majority of organized religions I have studied) and morality.
371 Since your last message (on last disk, that is) addresses that subject, I
372 will recapitulate.
373      It has been my experience that most Christians I have known, parti-
374 cularly the emphatic and vocal ones, have reported having been "living in
375 sin" prior to their conversion.  The details of these reports include 
376 everything from shoplifting and peeping to rape and murder.  I have main-
377 tained that the reason for this pattern is that a weakness of character
378 that prevented them from developing a sense of morality from within, allows
379 them to accept out of desperation the guidance they lack from any author-
380 itative body willing to give it.  If they should choose a psychologist,
381 psychiatrist, psychoanalist, etc., they may well benefit to the extent
382 of developing morals and resuming normal life.  Unfortunately, christians
383 are much more abundant and availing than the above professionals.  So 
384 they are likely to find guidance in 
385 Christian doctrine (or whatever religion they happen to stumble
386 into first).  Therefore, that doctrine does not provide morality, it re-
387 places it.  Admittedly, these doctrines often parallel many of the con-
388 cepts of morality shared by the society affected.  (Example:  Christian
389 doctrine and American society)  So it would seem that whether the guidance
390 is from moral or religious origin is of little consequence.  For some re-
391 ligions this may be true, but Christianity (as it exists today)
392 comes complete with the following
393 general disclaimer:
394    This religion offers no warranty whatsoever, either impicit or explicit,
395    that its "sheep" are free from "sin", because the forgiving nature
396    of its deity precludes the necessity of such discipline.
397 This little added attraction for the confused and bemuddled, accounts for
398 the prevalance of hypocrisy among Christians.
399      So, my proposal is that organized atheism may well provide a logical
400 alternative for those who are in need of guidance.  It would be the func-
401 tion of this organization to provide only enough guidance that they might
402 realize morality comes not from books (bible, book of mormon, etc.), but
403 from within; and that reality must be discerned by the individual, not by
404  religious dogma.
405      Lest anyone be terribly offended, I would like to make clear that
406 I have no personal animousity toward Christians.  I have not only friends,
407 but also relative that fit into that category.  The above mentioned weak-
408 ness is not the fault of the individual, but results from the pressures
409 of society, which may be alleviated only by increased moral conciousness.
410 A victim of society is no more to blame for his weakness than a victim
411 of influenza for puking.
412 
413 Alex:  I will be interested in the results of your inquiry.
414 
415 '.....':  I must confess a certain distaste for the Iranians I have 
416 encountered thusfar, but the attitude that has aroused such distaste is
417 the one you have just expressed.
418 
419 Leonard:  Do you recall that in your childhood (I hope you appreciate my
420 passing up of a wonderful opportunity for a nasty interjection), that you
421 believed there was a space between the Earth and sky, and colored your
422 Crayola landscapes accordingly.  This seemed to be a natural consequence
423 of the sky being up and the Earth being down.  Do you still believe that?
424 Hopefully not, because someone cared enough about your generation and 
425 those to follow, to stand in front of a class, day after day, with minimal
426 compensation and teach you the concepts of reality.  Do you resent that
427 person for interfering with your beliefs?  I have not suggested extermin-
428 ation, internment or forced deprogramming; only education for those who
429 seek it.  How, may I ask, is that a detriment to society?
430 
431 Hrothgar:  Thank you for your response.  I agree that the efforts of an
432 individual would be futile in such a large endeavor; this is why I thought
433 that organization might be beneficial.  I too regret that there are those
434 who find survival difficult to impossible, but what saddens me more is
435 that by treating the symptoms we are only alleviating the pain while we
436 are able to maintain treatment; but if we kill the virus, we have cured the
437 disease.  I will have to rely on your expertise regarding political wedges,
438 as my political inclinations are severely lacking.
439 
440 Monty II:  I forgot what you said (and I think it has been archived)
441            but whatever it was I liked it.
442 
443 DJJ:  I am in total agreement with your assessment of the "endless cycle"
444 dilema.  
445 
446 BAD:  (again)
447       With regard to Mexico, I couldn't agree with you more, and with 
448 regard to Korea and Saudi Arabia, I know not, so I will take your word
449 for it.  But anyway, my point was that for you to say that the US is the
450 best country is as much a fallacy as if I said it was the worst.  Since
451 neither of us are familiar with all countries and since there is no uni-
452 versal set of values, all we can say for sure is that with respect to 
453 your values, the US is better than Korea, Mexico and Saudi Arabia; and
454 with respect to mine Japan is better than US, Canada and Mexico.
455      I consider it immoral (which I guess is the same thing as evil) to
456 make commitments without the intention of upholding them.  Why do you equate
457 marriage and living together; the latter requires no commitments.  If all
458 that a person requires from a relationship is cohabitation, then why not
459 simply cohabitate.  I see no reason to utter the vows "for better or for
460 worse, 'til death do us part" if what you really mean is "'til I get bored
461 or find a better bed partner" unless someone is trying to deceive themselves
462 or somebody else.  Hypocrisy manifests itself not only in the church, but
463 in the society which it devised.
464  
465 d:  Are you perchance the same person as Deborah?
466 
467                                                   Dirty Ol' Man
468 
469 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
470 
471 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
472 
473    Thanks for the re-iteration, DOM, (can I call you "Dirty" ?); modemitis
474 having been eradicated from my system (I plug the '232 connector in my
475 belly-button and whistle the proper tones into the telephone), I should be
476 able to keep on top of things before they get immortalized in Mike's Magical
477 Mystery Disks.....I would assume that he suitibly filters his data before
478 translating it to 8" format, and wonder if it would be possible to get a 
479 copy of the contents of the current archive if I supplied the necessary
480 media. (yes, Mike?)
481 
482    Perchance organized atheism is also precisely what I suggested; maybe
483 some smart aethistic type realized that morals really DO come from divine
484 sources, yet realized that some wouldn't believe this, so he set up organ-
485 ized atheism to convinces those people that the morals existed WITHIN them,
486 thus achieving the same effect.
487 
488 why am I so mentally splattered tonight? must have been the combination
489 the late hour and the 2 oz. of refined sugar I just consumed....Anyone
490 out there have any data correlating blood-sugar levels with telecomunication
491 incompitence???
492 
493      ****************  ALL BACKWATER USERS  ******************
494 
495   I DESPARATLY NEED SOME SMART PEOPLE TO TALK WITH IN THE FOLLOWING AREAS...
496 
497 
498       1.   10k/100k ECL system design....
499       2.   wide-word bit-slice implementations......
500       3.   Accoustic signal processing
501       4.   Computer/person music synthesis....
502       5.   Multi-dimensional FFT and digital convolution.....
503 
504  I am not without means in these areas, and I am not trying to leave
505 the impression that I am looking for a techno-baby sitter..just someone
506 who Knows Of Which They Speak, and wouldn't mind chatting with someone
507 who (with any luck, will soon) Know Somewhat Of Which They Speak..
508 
509 i think my blood glucose level is stabilizing....(but not my spelling..)
510 
511  Yes..Ahem...Much better....Oh yes, my request..
512 
513  Specificly, I am formulating the tools necessary to begin construction
514 on my dream-project: The general-purpose, handy-dandy, chrome-plated
515 audio signal processing peripheral. You name it, it does it. Quickly.
516 
517  I hope to come up with at least ONE thing innovative in my project;
518 and I have already succeeded (maybe..). I seem to have run across a 
519 way to eliminate Gibbs phenomena with sufficent processing power. Really.
520 No windows. Just lots of whetstones.
521 
522  Please leave any leads or contact data right here, on this very system.
523 I figure that my chances on the BW are higher than on the other systems;
524 mainly beacause i'm flying on some iced tea i conentrated by an order
525 of magnitude  (you know that pre-sugare/lemoned Lipton stuff..num-num),
526 and will undoubtedly get around to posting my request on CBBS, yet until
527 my metabolism stabilizes (and my spelling) BW will do.
528 
529  recipe:
530                Aaron's pancreatic panacea
531 
532                     ingredients:
533                           1 well-rounded tablespoon pre-sweetened Lipton's
534                           1 cup microwaved water (just below steaming)
535                           
536                     instructions:
537                           mix well. sip expresso-style. vomit judiciously.
538 
539 Aaron
540 <><><><><><><><><><>and to all a good night..<><><><><><><><><><><><>0427<>
541 Sugar?!!  Who are you kidding, Aaron?  
542 
543 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
544 Atheists:  Why do you choose to deny the existence of a God?  Why is an 
545 organization of atheists any less oppressive than an organization of 
546 ,say, pantheistic deists?
547 Why not endorse part of the agnostic approach--do not deny the existence of
548 a God, but merely accept that knowing the Deity may be manifested in many
549 different ways?  Couldn't that be more peaceful, polite, and humane?
550 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave the Humbug ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
551 Aaron:
552 First, you start on the common stuff: sucrose.  Then, you graduate to the
553 heavy stuff:  Glucose, fructose, levulose, lactose, mannose, and all the other illicit sugars.   I know.  I was a sugar
554 addict too.  Then I got religion!  Saw a movie called "Sucrose Madness," where some poor schmuck kills his girlfriend 
555 after she runs off with his bag of C+H.  Finally, he's cured.
556 
557 BAD:
558 I never even brought up the subject of the Middle East.  I try to stay away from there (and so far, I have succeeded).
559 Try to label your responses so we know to whom you are responding......
560 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::::
561 Why are we in Lebanon anyway ?????
562 
563 --------
564 think about HBO suing everyone with pirate antennas???  Do the
565 pirateers have the right to do what they are doing???
566 
567 speak up people....it might be channel 2,6,8,10,12,22, or 49
568 that are next!!
569 ----------
570 }~
571 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
572 WOW!!! I FINALLY GOT ON!  EITHER WE HAVE PICKED UP A NUMBER OF WATCHERS
573 RECENTLY, OR THE SYSTEM IS SITTING THERE USING ITSELF.  I EVEN TRIED AT
574 3:30 AM, AND IT WAS BUSY. MIKEY, YOU ARE GETTING VERY POPULAR.
575 
576 BAD & ANON, THE SUBJECT OF THE RULES OF ARGUMENT, REASON, AND LOGIC IS A
577 DEAD DOG I'VE BEATEN ALL TOO OFTEN, SO I HESITATE TO SET FOOT UPON THAT
578 ROAD AGAIN.  BUT ANON'S PLEA SHOULDN'T GO UNANSWERED, AND IF EVERYONE CAN 
579 KEEP THEIR STOMACHS QUIET, I CAN PONTIFICATE ONCE MORE.                    
580                                        
581 "I can only judge by your statements, which are those of a self-centered
582 parasite."  BAD, IF YOU CAN ONLY JUDGE BY HIS (I ASSUME "HIS") STATEMENTS, 
583 THEN IT IS ONLY HIS STATEMENTS YOU CAN JUDGE.  ANYTHING ELSE IS AD HOMINEM.
584 I'M NOT COMMENTING ON YOUR OR ANON'S STATEMENTS, MERELY UPON YOUR RHETORIC.
585 ALSO, THOUGH I AGREE THAT SUCH ABUSIVENESS IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE, I MUST
586 ALSO SAY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF SIMILAR TACTICS, ANON.  ANY ALL-
587 INCLUSIVE STATEMENTS USED AS AN ATTACK ("YOU LIBERALS", "YOUR KIND OF 
588 PEOPLE", ETC.) MUST ALSO QUALIFY.  JUST REMEMBER: ATTACK THE STATEMENTS OF
589 THOSE WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE, BUT NOT THE INDIVIDUAL.                      
590                                        
591      AARON, YES THAT'S THE FLICK!  THOUGH YOUR TONE SHOWS SOME DEGREE OF  
592 SARCASM, I FEEL THE MOVIE SHOWED DARING ON THE PART OF ALL INVOLVED IN ITS
593 ATTEMPT TO SHOW EASTERN THOUGHT AND PHILOSOPHY IN A POSITIVE LIGHT DURING 
594 A TIME WHEN "YELLOW PERIL" AND OTHER TERMS LESS POLITE DESCRIBED WESTERN
595 ATTITUDES.
596      HROTHGAR, THE AMOUNT OF PHILOSOPHY THE MOVIE CONTAINED WAS TYPICAL OF
597 MOVIES, MEANING VERY LITTLE COMPARED TO THE BOOK.  THEN AS NOW, PRODUCERS 
598 OF TV AND MOVIES HAD TO AVOID PHILOSOPHY TO VERY GREAT DEGREES WHEN THE 
599 HEAD OF THE STUDIO WANTS SOMETHING LABELED ACTION/ADVENTURE. BUT THEY WERE
600 ABLE TO SNEAK SOME OF IT PAST, AND IT IS WHAT THEY WERE ABLE TO GET THROUGH
601 THAT MADE THE MOVIE MEMORABLE.
602      AARON (AGAIN), ON THE "99%" STATEMENTS, IF SUCH A SYSTEM EXISTED, I 
603 DON'T THINK IT COULD INCLUDE THE CONCEPT OF HOSTILITY TOWARD ALL CONTRACEPTION
604 THAT MOST FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGIONS SEEM TO HAVE, AS OVER-POPULATION IS A
605 MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD.  NOR DO I THINK THAT BASING
606 A WORLD'S SOCIAL STRUCTURE UPON A FOUNDATION OF LIES IS A VIABLE CONCEPT IF
607 THE ELIMINATION OF 90% OF THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS IS THE OBJECTIVE.  THOSE THAT
608 BELIEVE THE LIE BUT LATER DISCOVER THE TRUTH WILL FEEL SUCH RESENTMENT THAT
609 THEY WOULD BEGIN TO CONTRIBUTE TO A BREAKDOWN OF THE STRUCTURE OF SOCIETY.
610 THEY WOULD BEGIN TO PROSELYTIZE, TO PREY UPON THE DISSATISFACTION THAT SOME
611 FEEL NO MATTER HOW GOOD THINGS ARE, AND VERY SOON THE 90% AND 99% FIGURES 
612 WOULD NOT EXIST.  THIS SYSTEM CALLS FOR A BELIEF IN THE BASIC GOODNESS OF 
613 HUMANITY THAT I JUST DON'T POSSESS, SINCE FOR IT TO WORK, THOSE THAT KNOW 
614 THE TRUTH MUST REMAIN SILENT AND NOT USE THE INFORMATION FOR THEIR OWN
615 BENEFIT.  ALSO, THE LINEFEEDS AND TABS DEPEND UPON WHAT TERMINAL PROGRAM I
616 USE.  THE FREE, PUBLIC DOMAIN PROGRAMS I HAVE IGNORE THE TABS AND LINEFEEDS
617 (ALSO FORM FEEDS).  BUT WHEN I USE MY PROGRAM THAT EMULATES AN ADM-3A, THEY
618 COME THROUGH.                                                              
619                                        
620      ON THE QUESTION OF HBO, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT, AS THE AIRWAVES ARE 
621 MEANT TO BE PUBLIC, ANYTHING BROADCAST UPON THEM SHOULD BE IN THE PUBLIC  
622 DOMAIN.  THESE COMPANIES ARE SQUATTERS, ESTABLISHING A POSITION UPON THEIR
623 FREQUENCIES, AND THEN CLAIMING THEY OWN THEM.  IF THIS MODULATED EMF IS
624 PRIVATE PROPERTY, THEN I DEMAND THEY REMOVE THEIR PROPERTY FROM MY HOME AND
625 KEEP IT OUT.  I WANT THEM TO STOP THEIR PROPERTY FROM BOMBARDING MY BODY. 
626 PERHAPS I SHOULD SUE FOR TRESSPASS, MALICIOUS MISCHIEF, AND VANDALISM (SHE SAYS, TONGUE IN CHEEK).  IF EVERYONE STARTS
627 TAKING THEIR "PRODUCT" FOR FREE, IT LEAVES THEM WHERE THEY BELONG, ON CABLE. I'M OUT OF SPACE!! TILL NEXT TIME...
628                                        
629 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]

