From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Humble Request 
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:20:59
Message Number 16901

Heheh...thanks for the try! Re galactic revolution, I got one 
anwer of 250 million years at Earth's distance from the galactic
center. Sounds about right to me :)

===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:22:24
Message Number 16902

OK, lemme know within, oh, say, a week, ok? Thanx....
I'm already "packing" for it - got some pesqueniacs....(don't ask)...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:25:16
Message Number 16903

ok, ok, I asked what you _like_ to do, (re work - yeah, so few of us
like to do it)...but raising cackatiels, that sounds interesting:
how do you get them to mate??
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:26:20
Message Number 16904

Heheh....ok, let's move on: how 'bout the question, "If I were
President, here's what I'd do about"....
 
 
          National Debt
          Erosion of Freedoms
          [add yer own here]
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: OPUS                
Subject: Uhh..          
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:13:18
Message Number 16905

Green is green because someone told you it was green.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:24:50
Message Number 16906

>...there ARE better things than a good cigarette...
T>Like the ability to breathe.
 
AMEN!
 
>but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh?
T>No.  Kissing a smoker is like liking an ashtray.
 
AGAIN!  Well spoken
 
T>...isn't "Good Cigarette" an oxymoron?
 
Yep.  Especially to a non-smoker.   
 
NO, Scott...this isn't aimed at you!
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:28:31
Message Number 16907

>Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
 
T>Um...Kim Basinger?
 
Ah, shit!  I was hoping that you could introduce us!
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:29:39
Message Number 16908

>...if we have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See
>Colors Differently People?
 
T>Color-blind people [long winded unneeded explanation for the sole 
T>purpose of sounding intelligent].  If part of the system doesn't work,
T>[implied, 'you poor ignorant moron,'] you get color blindness or some
T>other visual defect.
 
AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently?  I think the 
question was valid, don't you?  Hmmm.  Kinda hard on him, eh?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:34:50
Message Number 16909

DF>If someone wants to commit suicide through nicotine, let them.
 
Agreed.
 
DF>If they think the feeling they get from smoking is worth the loss of
DF>thier lungs, they have every right.
 
Again, fine.  Just keep it out of *my* lungs.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RUFUS               
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:39:33
Message Number 16910

R>Sure, Sarasota is small,
 
No, Sarasota is HUGE!   I just went home on a vacation for a week
to my home province of Erie County, PA.  Very very very smalltown.  
Waterford: Miles and mile of back road with a farmhouse here and there.
All the businesses huddle around mainstreet like a bunch of bums at a 
burn barrel in New York in the middle of winter.  Worse: For example,
for fun people sit around in thier front yards, watching cars go past.
For a variant on that entertainment, they count what types of cars there
are-- Fords, Chryslers, Chevys.  
 
Sarasota is Huge.  Bradenton is Large.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:46:30
Message Number 16911

T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray.
S>Um, not to another smoker.
T>Yeah, if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste
T>things, don't you?  Heh heh.
 
Heh, heh.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Random chatter 
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:49:56
Message Number 16912

DF>What do y'all think computers will be like in twenty years?
 
I dunno, lemme ask it then.  By the way, it's "you'uns".
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: THE BEST LEGS       
Subject: Handle         
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:18
Message Number 16913

How did you get a handle like that?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: ALL                 
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:50
Message Number 16914

(evil grin.)
 
I got it.
 
(Grin widens.  Evil laugh.)
 
I paid an awful lot of money for it, but I got it.  I mortaged my soul
to my roommate for it.
 
(Quick look to both sides.  Maniacidal laugh.)
 
And it's gonna give me 385 HP to start!  What is it?
 
440 SIXPACK!    MOHAHAHAHAHHA!
 
 
Mustangs beware....heheheheheheh.
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Marriage & stuf
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:42:27
Message Number 16915

>You certainly are.  That doesn't happen very often...
.
What doesn't happen oftern...that I agrree with you or I'm in a
minority?
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: SERIOUS PROBLEM
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:49:59
Message Number 16916

>True friends dont end a relationship without facing you about it...
.
You're right, so now I don't know for sure whether I want to go see him 
or not.  My first reaction is to say to h*ll with him.  I suppose I will
not.  He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead 
horse?
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:53:04
Message Number 16917

S> A good steak bone wont hurt a dog...also a ham bone... my dog loves
   them...
.
Won't any /real/ bone splinter?  If so, wont that hurt'm or is the dogs 
digestive system able to handle them ok?
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:55:37
Message Number 16918

Hey...congrats on quitting smoking.   I just quit, and I've been smoking
since I was 15 years old.  (I'm 28 now).  I tend to agree with you that 
it might be a psychological addiction.  That is what it was for me.  So 
far, I havent smoked in 5 weeks.  Dropped it cold turkey.  And to date,
I've had no /real/ withdrawal symtoms.  Oh yeah, I've wanted one once
in a while, but not so I *HAD* to have one. Of course I dont know what 
you smoked, but I was somewhat health consious(sp?) the last 10 yrs.
(Kinda a contradiction in terms...health consious and smoking huh)
I used to smoke the fads...Marlboro, Winston, Kool, Salem, but the last 
10 yrs, I've smoked Carlton..the lowest of the low in tar and nicotine.
That probably had something to do with my nicotine dependance..or lack 
of it.  KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
                                     Burney
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:15:16
Message Number 16919

Jesus loves *you* too!
===========

From: HACMAN              
To: ALL                 
Subject: stuff          
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:20:27
Message Number 16920

Hey everybody.  My new bbs, YE OLDE ENGLISH DEN is now \o124hrs\o0. (do 
you have mci here or not)  Cone on down for a visit.  Running at up to
the amazing speed of 1200 baud. (Whatcha complain'n 'bout...you cant 
read that fast anywayz)  The tele number is 493-8401.  See ya there.
                    Burney
ps: Handles allowed too
===========

From: RAT                 
To: THE BEST LEGS       
Subject: legs           
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:41:36
Message Number 16922

If your legs are so hot, why don't you stop by a rat's place and 
show them to a rat?
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: MAXIMILION          
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:01:35
Message Number 16923

>He is "Qualified" to run the country under those two and only those
>two requirements.
     
   Well, I wouldn't say that he's qualified under only those two 
requirements.  He did manage to get elected to the U.S. Senate, ya know.
He's reasonably apt as a campaigner.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:04:11
Message Number 16924

>Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain...
    
   Hate to say this, but there are mental bullies, as well.  Verbal
abuse is still abuse, even though it leaves no scars.
    
   But I agree with your sentiment.  Anyone who thinks that pushing
people or countries around makes the rest of us hold them in high
regard does NOT face reality.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:06:46
Message Number 16925

Those tunes sound like they should bring the desired effect.   Hmmm...
and you brought your weasel along?
   
   If you did that right, you should have experienced something that
makes satori feel like a five-second backscritch.  Or, more bluntly,
something that makes an orgasm feel like a quick kiss from your 
grandmother.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:10:52
Message Number 16926

Don't worry.  Even if you're being words and obfuscative, I get your
drift.
     
   I was about to argue your points, when I realized something: It 
     
sounds like all we're doing is arguing over the definition of "correct."
You seem to use "correct" and "useful" as synonyms: something is 
"correct" when it can be demonstrated -- even when the demonstration
must have certain limits (including limits of accuracy!)  I tend to
use the word "useful" there.
    
   Of COURSE any "useful" theory is true for only particular contexts,
and of COURSE "useful" is a subjective term.  Newton's laws only work
for particular contexts, and they might not be useful for, say, someone
piloting a spaceship (or just building a T.V.)
   That's the reason I use the term "useful."
     
   Do you have a counterproposal for a term to mean: "Verifiably correct
in all situations; universally provable"?  (Personally, I believe 
any rule like that must be fictional.)  For the time being, I use the
term "correct" for it -- except in mathematics, where I'd use the term
"assumed" or "proven."
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:22:33
Message Number 16927

Any weekend after the next would be fine with me, for the Picnick.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:26:03
Message Number 16928

   First of all (and you may disagree with this), I classify ethics as
a part of religion.  You might think that religion supplies the power
to ethics ("if you're not nice to your neighbor, you'll go to Hades..."
etc.) and you might point out that there are people with no religion
who act ethically, but I still claim it as a part of religion.  And it
has consequences which are directly observable consequences.
     
   I believe the way one view God can have a very directly observable
consequence on your life.  If you believe there is no God and no 
punishment for sins after life, you will act differently than one who 
believes in both.  If you believe God can be bribed to forget sins,
you will act differently than one who does not believe this.  I say:
if you believe there exists a God, and if you believe God is watching
your life, and if you believe God will take action on you depending on
what you do in your life, you will act differently.  
    
   You're right: a mere belief in the axiom "There is a God" or the
axiom "There is no God" doesn't mean a thing.  Just as there's no branch
of mathematics with just one axiom, there's no religion that believes
only that.  
    
   The next message will address your second point.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:41:47
Message Number 16929

   Some religions, including Christian Science, disbelieve in pain.
Some of their members would NOT agree that they perceived pain when
you threw the brick at them.  (Fortunately, I'm not one of them.)
Going on to mathematics, Hamiltonian algebra does NOT agree that 
1 + 2 = 2 + 1.  Only a "shared world view" comprised of assumptions
jointly made by two (or more) people makes it possible to communicate.
     
   If something is not repeatable, does that make it ficticious?
If something isn't verifiable, does that make it ficticious?  I doubt
both of those questions.  (But I also very strongly doubt anyone who
uses those questions as a lazy way out to explain a phenomenon.)
    
   To tie in with the conversation I'm having with Chaz, the belieft
that the universe is real is an extremely useful proposition.  But not
everyone shares it.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE BEST LEGS       
Subject: alias          
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:51:34
Message Number 16930

Hmmm... you'd better change your alias, or you'll be required at the
next RufusCon to prove it's true!
              <Pant, pant, pant!>
                         //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:53:48
Message Number 16931

   Ya know, I must be one of the few people who has never seen Elvis.
("When in doubt, it's Elvis!")  The False Prophet in me assures me that
he's alive, has lost a hundred pounds, and is doing miracles everywhere.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:56:14
Message Number 16932

   The news on the radio is very sketchy, all right -- but for me, it's
convenient.  I drive way too much.
                           //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:01:50
Message Number 16933

"If I were President, I'd..."
   
   be sure to have the best advisors.  (If it were possible, I'd get
George Bush as Sec. of State.  The man knows nothing about internal
affairs, but he knows the world REAL well.  But I'd keep him far from
the military.)
   
   National Debt?  Cut one HELL of a lot of the loopholes from taxes,
and simplify the taxes even more... maybe even just a simple percentage
of what you make.  (Companies get a certain percent; individuals get a
certain percent.)  (With one exception: there must be a lower limit to
who gets taxed.)  The two groups who will grumble and complain the most
are the rich and the accountants.
     
   Erosion of freedoms?  Heh, heh... I'd say that everyone by law, 
everyone must exercise their freedoms at least once a week, or they're
thrown in jail.  More seriously, I had felt that it was the Supreme
Court who had most of the cause of the erosion of freedoms, and that
Congress had been waffling about creating new laws.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:09:29
Message Number 16934

>Just keep it [cigarette smoke] out of *my* lungs.
    
   Sounds fair to me.  Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms,
while we don't suffer from second-hand smoke?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:13:56
Message Number 16935

Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:20:17
Message Number 16936

Some _very_ good points. I think there's an underlying continuum we're
both referring to, and it relates to the basic question "How to we
'know' something"... so, for instance, we may use the word "useful" or
"correct" or "true" to describe a point on that continuum, but you're
position and mine may be some distance apart. I use "know" or "true"
to describe something such as "the world is (more or less) round",
being aware that some physicist may do some study of alternate
realities to "prove" that the earth is a torus, but in an additional
dimension which we don't directly perceive...and at that point I would
have to say that what I thought I knew, I didn't! Or I may feel that
it is "useful" to believe that the earth is more or less round, etc...
So though I use "useful" much as "true" (or at least as a subset of
"true"), I still may find some items useful/true which you don't.
And so the upshot may well be that as interesting as this discussion
is, it may well lead nowhere! Which is ok, too. After all, I think it
is useful/true that we all are born and we all die and the only 
question is what to do in between, and discussions sure seem "usefule"
to me!! :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:27:54
Message Number 16937

OK, how about June 7th (if that's a Saturday)...?? 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:29:06
Message Number 16938

Interesting: in other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions...
I'll buy that....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: If I were...   
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:31:42
Message Number 16939

Whew, I can't disagree with any of those approaches. Though I'd
also focus on a few of my pet peeves:
 
1 - No death penalty, except for Seventh Day Adventists (jes' kidding)
2 - All commercial items to be sold must have the full price shown:
     NOT the price minus tax, shipping, preparation, etc!!!!
3 - All bullets must be make of silly putty
4 - Universal full, free health care
5 - Push for UN armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnel
    )make that U.N. Armed Force, not un-armed force, tho that's an
    )interesting possibility
 
----------And Yours???----------
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:37:26
Message Number 16940

Or improve air circulation: floor vents to blow it in, ceiling vents
to take it out and filter it....
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:11:40
Message Number 16941

>Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke.
    
   Wasn't that tried once?  And didn't they have problems with getting
FDA approval, or something like that?  Great idea, though... if you 
can get the smokers to try them.  (And make sure the taste is OK.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:17:55
Message Number 16942

(Ain't it amazing what a simple comment like "Religious discussions,
by their very nature, cannot be 'intelligent' or 'logical'" can lead
off to?)
    
   Now that we have an idea of what we mean by "useful" versus "true,"
(and an idea of what something means to be 'proven'), what about tying
it into religion.  Simply put:
    
   How 'useful' is religion?  (There's no way to show most religions
to be 'true'.)  Do religious people live 'better' than non-religious
people.  (Watch out for that word 'better'...)  And, is one particular
religion more 'useful' than any others?
   
   I'm going to try to keep from preaching at anyone who jumps in on
that topic.  (If I do, PREACH BACK!) 
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:26:18
Message Number 16943

   June 7th -- or the nearest Saturday to there -- sounds great to me!
I'll be there!
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:27:16
Message Number 16944

>In other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions... I'll buy
>that....
      
   Thanks.  It was a bit verbose, no?  A simplified version:
   
   You will do whatever actions you believe will make God act better
toward you.
     
   If you don't believe in God, the statement holds (though vacuously.)
If you believe in God, but don't believe actions affect God, the state-
ment still holds.  If you believe actions affect God, you'll do them.
And that is how religion affects the real world.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: If I were...   
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:35:03
Message Number 16945

   Interesting ideas.  Mind if I debate them?
   
>1. No death penalty.
     
   No comment; I'm ambivalent about this topic.
   
>2. All commercial items must have the full price shown...
    
   Amen!  Although I'd even more rather have marked on the package the
taxes broken down: the net price, PLUS all of the 'hidden' taxes clearly
marked on the package.
     
>3. All bullets must be made of silly putty.
    
   No. Absolutely not.  It would be very easy to smuggle in guns and
ammunition: the police would be at the mercy of the international crime
rings.
     
>4. Universal full, free health care.
    
   How are you going to pay for that?  And how are you going to get
high-quality doctors to go for that?  TANSTAAFL, friend... and there's
no such thing as free health care.  
   The solution to high-costing health care?  Simple.  Why is health
care expensive?  One of the biggest reasons is insurance.  Why is
insurance so expensive?  People can sue doctors for any amount -- and
get it.  Set a limit to the amount people can sue for doctor's mistakes.
     
>5. Push for U.N. armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnell.
     
   Interesting.  Again, who pays for it?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/20/91 23:07:11
Message Number 16946

DF>Verbal abuse is still abuse, though it does not leave any scars.
 
I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars.
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Random chatter 
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:10:12
Message Number 16947

I dunno, lemme ask it then.  By the way, it's "you'uns".
  
Look at that would ya.  He goes to PA for one week and comes back typing
like I talk.
  
                               * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:52:49
Message Number 16948

>They'd better take a good look at the third in line before they
>go Quayle hunting...
 
Unless the third in line were one the Three Stooges, I think they'd be
best off shooting...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:54:39
Message Number 16949

>...how else ya gonna keep up where Elvis really is now...
 
Didn't you hear? He's hanging out with Jesus these days. They're both
everywhere. "Hey, Elvis, man, where you wanna go for lunch today?"
"Um, I dunno...let's do lunch everywhere!"
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:59:35
Message Number 16950

>There could be a scenario where God _proves_ him/her-self...
 
Yeah, I suppose that's true, but so far it ain't happened, relegating
religious faith out of the land of logic at least for the time being...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:03:29
Message Number 16951

>Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
T>Um...Kim Basinger?
TS>Ah, shit! I was hoping that you could introduce us!
 
Well...um, do you suppose if we invite her to RufusCon III?
 
Speaking of which, this is the first warning: RufusCon III is coming up
in the near future, possibly as early as next month. Anyone who's
got suggestions or absolute no's for dates should perhaps think about
speaking up now...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:05:46
Message Number 16952

>AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently?
 
In a manner of speaking. Actually, I meant a person who doesn't see
all the colors a normal person does, which isn't really the same thing.
 
>Kinda hard on him, eh?
 
No.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:07:59
Message Number 16953

>440 SIXPACK!
 
Dude! I wanna go for a ride...
 
>Mustangs beware....
 
Heh, heh.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: HACMAN              
Subject: Marriage & stuf
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:09:07
Message Number 16954

What doesn't happen oftern [sic]...?
 
People don't agree with me about anything involving interpersonal
relationships or politics very often.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: HACMAN              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:10:25
Message Number 16955

>Jesus loves *you* too!
 
No, not really, but he says I have a great personality.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:12:23
Message Number 16956

I'll be blunt: I'm beginning to get somewhat tired of this discussion.
Yes, you're right: if you believe in God it can have an effect on your
behavior. That is not what I was talking about. The point I was trying
to make is this: You cannot prove or disprove the existance of God.
There are no observable phenomena which go on in the real world which
must be attributable to God. There are no physical, direct consequences
which are a result of the existance or lack thereof of God. Belief in Go
is an act of faith which is quantifiably different from belief in a
mathmatical axiom. If you wish to continue to believe that faith in
God is tatamount to belief that a hammer will fall when dropped or that
one plus one is two, that's fine, but I will point out that if it were
truly that simple there would not be such a widespread lack of consensus
on the issue. So, just to flog this dead horse one more time, I will
say again: There is a quantifiable difference between a logical dis-
cussion and a religious one. The former will always, ALWAYS contain some
leap of faith somewhere that is different in kind from any similar so-
called leap of faith in a non-religious discussion.
 
As to your second point: Religions generally include ethics as part of
their code, but ethics do not derive exclusively from and
do not depend on religion. Ethics can exist without religion. Therefore,
religion is not the source of ethics. Point dismissed.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:19:33
Message Number 16957

>Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms...
 
What, pray tell, does the phrase "smoker's freedoms" mean? Surely
you aren't suggesting that people have the /right/ to smoke...or
even the /right/ to smoke tobacco products only. I don't recall that
being anywhere in the jurisdiction of any of the rights guaranteed
in the Constitution or anywhere else, and it's a certainty that people
don't have the /right/ to smoke non-tobacco substances. The fact that
society condones it does not mean it's a "right." I don't have the
"right" to dump poison into the air through a smaokestack; do you
suggest I have the right to dump poison into the air through a rolled-
up paper tube? If any "freedoms" are at stake here, they're freedoms
connected with the right to privacy, which doesn't extend to public
places (and that argument can easily be applied to a host of drugs
besides tobacco, too...)!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:23:33
Message Number 16958

>Invent cigarettes that have no second-hand smoke.
 
They did. They aren't very profitable. We mustn't let little things like
health risks to non-smokers interfere with profits, doncha know.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:25:16
Message Number 16959

>Wasn't [smokeless cigarettes] tried once?
 
Yes. By Phillip Morris.
 
>And didn't they have problems with getting FDA approval...?
 
No. The FDA has no jurisdiction whatsoever to regulate tobacco products.
In fact, it is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the FDA's charter that it has no
jurisdiction to regulate tobacco products. Regulation is performed
solely by the ATF (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms).
 
Philip Morris attempted to market their smokeless cigarettes in several
markets. They were a dismal commercial flop. Too damn expensive to
produce.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:27:48
Message Number 16960

>(There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.)
 
No shit. That's what I've been trying to say. That's why religious
arguments are not logical, even if they are couched in logical terms
anmd even if they do borrow the techniques of logic.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:10:41
Message Number 16961

DF>Verbal abuse.... does not leave any scars.
  
KO>I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars.
    
         '
    Touche.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: You'uns        
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:12:24
Message Number 16962

   All you Nahtherners kin't tahk straight.  Sheeeeesh!
    
   (I've never heard ya say "you'uns," Crystal.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:16:12
Message Number 16963

RufusCon III, next month?   Is anyone interested in getting, say,
buttons made for it?  (I believe Watts has a button-maker.)  Or maybe
T-shirts?  (A bit expensive, but possible.)
     
   Then again, we could invite Maggie de Alercon, and call it the 
MaggiCon '91.  
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:20:12
Message Number 16964

   Previously in the discussion, we had agreed that people have the
'right' to commit a slow suicide through nicotine.  This 'right' has
not been written up in either the U. S. Constitution, the Florida
Constitution, the New College Constitution, or the Laws of the Kingdom
of Trimaris.  (It should show up in the book of the Aardvark.)
     
   I agree with you, though.  The 'right' to commit suicide is not the
right to subject others to the same poison.  Fair enough?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:25:55
Message Number 16965

 D U D E ! ! !  Wake up and smell the tofu!  N O,   N O,  N O! ! !
     
DF> There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.
    
   Dude!  I had just gotten into a discussion with Chaz trying to
define 'true' as 'verifiably correct.'  Because something is NOT
verifiable, that does NOT make it illogical to believe.
    
   We've gone through this a number of times.  Religious arguments ARE
'logical' -- you have assumptions, and conclusions derived from the
assumptions.  Whether or not the assumptions are reasonable is another
question entirely.
     
   Not once have I ever said that religion was verifiable.  I have 
stated that religion does make a difference in people's lives.  I have
stated that it is not a contradiction to believe in God.  However, I
have not said (except in jest) that anyone knows undeniably that God
exists.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:27:58
Message Number 16966

Well, if you stop the smoke at it's source, then you don't have to 
worry about large, expensive air filtration systems.  Besides, on the
way out the smoke could still get into my lungs.  Granted, not much
or enough to make a difference, but it's the principal of the thing...
am I rambling again?  Oh, never mind...say did I mention....
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:29:42
Message Number 16967

Waitaminute...they didn't have FDA approval?  And ordinary cigarettes
DO?  Don't tell me that the FDA won't approve a cigarette which is bad
for you...they already have!  And Furthermore--a cigarette which creates
no second hand smoke could only be a good thing!  And so what if it
isn't good for the smoker's health -- the stupid things aren't any good
for your health to start with! 
 
And getting the smokers to try them would be easy...as long as you 
outlawed all the other types.  As for taste--cigarette smokers suffer
from lack thereof anyway.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:35:44
Message Number 16968

TS>440 SIXPACK!
T>Dude!  I wanna go for a ride...
 
You sure?  I'm drivin...
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Birth Control  
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:21:44
Message Number 16969

>(WHACK!!!> Hehe, nice to "meat" you, Rufus....
 
Aaarrgghh....
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:26:21
Message Number 16970

>No, Sarasota is HUGE!
 
Tampa is HUGE!  Atlanta is just a mutant life form.  I figure once you
know all the streets it's time to move on.  I can find my way around
every part of Sarasota except for Siesta Key...
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:35:10
Message Number 16971

Umm...I dunno...whenever sounds cool to me.  In 7 days I'll be out of
high school, then I spend 5 or more years in college, then work, then
retire, then die.  Damn...I'm gonna be busy.  Hope I have time to 
watch some movies.  We were thinking of having some full color 
membership badges made just to freak people at other cons.
Who's the FGOH? GOH? Artist GOH?  I'm the Mandatory Guest of Honor,
as usual.  Will we be having an artist draw off and auction after that?
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:38:14
Message Number 16972

Heheh....I think we can keep from preaching, and keep the "preachers"
out of this discussion. One way I see the problem of using "useful", may
well be it's non-absoluteness (yes, I know I argued its opposite 
before! So what!?)...what is useful to someone or to some group, may
NOT be useful to others. The German Nazi movement was useful to many
(I say this as a partly Jewish person who lost 10 2nd cousins in WWII) -
trains ran on time, employment up, most Germans becoming well-focused
on working together. It was certainly NOT useful to Jews, Catholics,
Blacks, and later Allied Forces. Some medications are useful to some
patients and deadly to others. Re religion, it _appears_ to be useful
to some (perhaps many), but my feeling is that the further from "truth"
one gets, the less useful in the intermediate to long run the idea,
perception, belief becomes (to humanity in general). What
blows me away is that some people still believe that religions "prove"
supernatural events occur. A friend believes the universe began in
4004 BC. No use telling him about how dates are figured; he just says
that "God set it up" to make it _look_ like the earth and universe are
older. Whew!
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Picnick: 6/7/91
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:45:12
Message Number 16973

Great: let's go for it: but I gotta get a calendar: It may actually
be June 6th! (The mind is the second thing to go.....)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:46:24
Message Number 16974

It holds together nicely (re actions affecting God). The problem is
that we're dealing with those really weird creatures, human beings.
They DON'T always act as their beliefs indicate they should! There
are MANY God-believers who believe their actions affect God - and 
their own futures - and yet blithely (nice word, eh?) perform actions
which will _insure_ their going straight to Hell (their belief system)..
That's the problem with humans: even their beliefs don't consistently
guide them....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: If I were...   
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:49:48
Message Number 16975

Re health care, gotta say you're wrong. First of all, the costs of
health care are NOT determined (well, less than 5%) by lawsuits.
That accounts for an insignificant costs. And "good" doctors should
be determined by ensuring good medical schools who will only graduate
those who demonstrate appropriate competence. Look at Canada, England,
many other countries: not that they don't have funding problems for
health care, but the free health care system works! The real reason
for escalating health care costs is the costs of modern diagnoses and
treatment. NMR's are outrageously expensive. Brand name medications
are incredible: I needed an antibiotic (available for at least the
last 10 years), which costs $150 a month!! And no generic!! Therefore
no competition!! My bro is a bigshot hospital finance person - I'll
talk some more with him re costs (tho of course hospital health care
is only one facet of it). BTW and only slightly related, have you ever
wondered why health insurance almost invariably covers dental checkups
but NEVER medical checkups?? Wouldn't one think that they would help
keep longrange medical costs down by catching disease earlier??
 
If there were free health care, where would the "good" doctors go? Maybe
some would go into research, a couple, perhaps, overseas (but they
don't want to leave this country any more than you or I, even when we
disagree with a variety of political/social trends).... We know that
private practice of professionals is just as much based on greed as
private industry - and I for one don't think medicine should be.
 
Your comments?
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:59:45
Message Number 16976

Yes, for that and a myriad of other reasons. 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:02:11
Message Number 16977

Well put. Also put well.
Well, well....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:05:10
Message Number 16978

Hehehe...not rambling...tho I'm not sure the "principle of the thing"
is the issue. Air filtration is not necessarily that expensive, and
there's the theoretical vs the actual (much as we don't have the
right to shout "fire", etc...tho we have free speech)....I think that
the bottom line is that we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well
discuss more interesting topics: how 'bout it's so tough to describe
the taste of chocolate? (I'm goin' for some right now!!)
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: ALL                 
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:13:04
Message Number 16979

Okay, I have something to ask y'all:  How much do you know about 
mosquitos?  And why do they love my room so much?`
     
   What's actually happening:  About seven o'clock at night, my door is
COVERED with mosquitos.  They do not move unless you jar them; they
just sit there.
   Tonight, I forgot about the mosquitoes, and left the door open.  At
nine tonight, saw TENS (maybe a hundred) of them, all climbing on
one wall of my room, a wall near the door.  The wall is covered with
the same wallpaper that the rest of the room has; but THAT particular 
wall is the only one with mosquitoes.  They haven't bothered my food.
Just the one wall.  (Made it really easy for me to Raid them.)
    
   Any ideas of what they're after?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:18:12
Message Number 16980

   As Turtle mentioned, the FDA has no power over tobacco.  That's 
in another agency's power.  And again, as Turtle mentioned, they're
unprofitable.  Capitalism at work!  (Won't smokers put up with the
extra cost -- so they're more socially acceptable?)
     
   Outlawing should be unnecessary.  As soon as smokers realize how
much their friends prefer no-smoke cigarettes, they'll switch -- from
peer pressure.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: RUFUS               
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:21:50
Message Number 16981

>In 7 days I'll be out of high school...
     
  Congratulations!
   
> We were thinking of having some full color membership badges made
> just to freak people at other cons.
    
   >>> YES! <<<  Do it.   If we can, try to get Maggie as the Artist
Guest of Honor.
    
   You know, I was just thinking.  I was wandering through the Sarasota
Main Shopping Plaza.  There are three stores operational there.  Ya
know, if you give me a date, I could dress REAL impressively, and ask
the *nice* manager if we might be able to rent one of the empty stores
for a night.  I guarentee it'll be REAL cheap.  (They're desperate.)
    
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:27:19
Message Number 16982

> The further from "truth" one gets, the less useful in the intermediate
> to long run the idea, perception, belief becomes (to humanity in
> general.)
    
   (I'm not even going to ask what "truth" is.  Verifiable reality?)
  
> A friend believes the universe began in 4004 BC.
    
   Hold it right there.  In his world, he has a reasonably complete,
non-contradictory system.  (I'll WAGER that if I hadn't thrown in this
parenthetical aside, Turtle would jumpin to this discussion, demanding
that I prove creationism to be true, that I explain the dinosaurs within
the system, and that I counter-explain every scientific detail that
points to a much older universe.  All I say to that: God made it that
way.)
   What are the faults with it?  Unlike with evolutionism, one cannot
make any predictions about the future.  Creationism says that at one
point, God created the universe very close to the way things are today.
On the other hand, evolution can make a prediction: that creatures will
grow better at survival with time.  (Note: there is a school of thought
which says that God set the wheels of life in motion, some unspecified
time ago, and is now using evolution.  This theory makes the same
predictions as evolutionism...)
     
   Anyway, what does this have to do with our subject: "Is religion
'useful'?"  Simple: religion can hurt and help scientific development.
    
   How can it help scientific development?  All science assumes the
universe has an order; that experiments are repeatable; and that there
are a finite number of laws which if discovered would explain 
everything.  These assumptions actually came out of Christian ideas
(although, as Turtle will invariably point out, they can exist 
independently of religion.) 
   
> What blows me away is that some people still believe that religions
> "prove" supernatural events occur.
    
   That's another topic entirely.  I've never heard a convincing proof
that supernatural events DON'T occur.  (Continued next message.)
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:45:05
Message Number 16983

(continued from previous message)
   
   Yes, I'm skeptical of anyone who makes claims of supernatural 
events; but I don't utterly rule them out.  I'll do my best to debunk
anyone who claims, say, ESP -- but not because I don't believe it could
happen.  I'd do it because the vast majority of people who have claimed
something like that have been fakes.
     
   Oh yes -- about the German Nazi movement.  I remember in my World
History course that Naziism actually helped Germany from its depression,
but Fascism actually hurt Italy.  Mussolini made things look better:
the trains were on time for the only part of Italian history.  But it
didn't improve the GNP.
    
                           //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:50:25
Message Number 16984

Nope!  They simply believe God can be bribed, later... by really
LOOKING repentant at Church on Sunday.  Or, they think that God's
not really looking -- or that God will just allow them this "one
time."  
     
   Sure, there's a large number of hypocrites in Christianity.  But
they also figure they have (or will have) a fire escape.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Nat. Healthcare
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:54:31
Message Number 16985

My comments:
   
   I'm somewhat out of my league, here.  But I'd really like to talk
with some doctors, and ask them what their biggest expenses are...
then see what can be done about cutting costs, BEFORE a 'national
health care' would be set up.  Making it nationalized will NEVER
solve the problem of the expenses of health care; all it will do is
make it much more difficult for there to be any real reform.
     
   Again, I'd like to know if Canada and England really have no problems
paying for the national health care.  Remembering that they have a
MUCH reduced militia (even on a per person basis), I remember that
England has a much higher tax rate than we do.  (Even after the reforms
of Maggie Thatcher.)
    
   You came up with one of the problems with the cost of medicine: no
competition!  When it's something as important as your life, there MUST
be competition between companies.  
     
   By the way, speak for yourself when you say you don't want to leave
the country.  I HAVE lived in other countries, and have no intentions
of staying in this country the rest of my life.  My Spanish is good, and
I'm learning German... that opens up much of Europe and South America
for any business.
     
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: ALL                 
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/21/91 22:35:10
Message Number 16986

   Hey all, thought I'd interupt your wonderful conversation with
some of my senseless babbling. Welppers, I've come, I'm here and I'm
well, I'm here....maybe, just maybe I'll move my dog house to this
section of the town.....blah, must be going, gotta check out the
rest of de board....talk at ye all later.
 
                          Sindar
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: THE GRUNT           
Subject: Star Trek Quote
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:37:58
Message Number 16987

TG> That's "One Damn Minute Admiral." 
 
Opps. did I misquote?   Ahem! Well, so you know your ST dialog... very 
good..... (grumble grumble) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:39:32
Message Number 16988

Glad to see you back, Jonboy.... Hope you weave your way through these 
obvious frustrations..... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:44:28
Message Number 16989

How do you get Cockatiels to mate????? Well, heh heh... it's kind of 
like this... you get two cockatiels (of obvious sex, of course) and put
them in a cage together with a breeding box attached. You introduce them
to each other.... Mr. Bird meet Mrs. Bird and visa versa,... if they lik
(that's like) each other, they'll do the rest. Once in a while, the two 
birds simply will want nothing to do with each other, but most of the 
time, they are more than happy to cooperate. 
 
When the babies are about 2 to 2 	1/2 weeks old (little fuzzy bald heade
things) you take them out and handfeed them. I love being a bird mommy. 
At about three weeks old.... they turn into these creatures that look 
like they ought to be a Jim Henson creation or something... REALLY ugly.
They look like a Dinosaur.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:49:35
Message Number 16990

I have NO earthly idea of what I would do about the Nat'l Debt if I were
the president. On the Erosion of Freedom, I would certainly address that
topic... but having never been the President before, I don't know where 
it would start.... there's a lot of different sides to that subject. 
 
Music, for instance.... One one hand, I feel that people should be 
allowed to write, produce, publish, record (and whatever other verbs I 
can come up with) and listen to whatever kind of music they like..... 
HOWEVER, as a parent... I am extremely alarmed by some of the lyrics 
and subject matter that Rap music (Ok, rock n roll is guilty too but 
Rap....geeesh) anyway, Rap music is coming out with. It is sooo graphic.
I mean, my 7 year old hears these songs, then starts singing them...., 
in many cases, he doesn't even prounounce the words right, he doesn't 
even know what they mean.... and when he DOES find out... then it's this
big giggle session and he'll do it just to annoy me.... "Opps, Mom. I 
forgot!!!!" 
My 3 year old sings constantly..... and she makes up the words, but some
of those songs...... she'll sing the tune and hit a word like fuck and 
she won't even realize it... she'll say truck or something.... and I
know she isn't really understanding it... but the person in the aisle
way next to us at Kmart sure doesn't understand that. 
 
Um...Saavik is rambling. Yet....again.
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: HACMAN              
Subject: True Freinds   
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:59:59
Message Number 16991

HM> He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead 
    horse? 
 
Why? For you're own peace of mind, that's why.... it'll continue to 
bother you until you know exactly why he chose to end the friendship. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: HACMAN              
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:01:40
Message Number 16992

Not all "real bones" splinter. Poultry bones will (DO NOT GIVE THESE TO 
ANY ANIMAL) splinter when they are cooked, small porkchop bones can be 
easily swallowed and cause problems... but a nice big hambones will give
a dog hours of enjoyment and it's very healthy for them. Ask your 
veteranarian... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: HACMAN              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:04:18
Message Number 16993

AAAAAhhh, I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this.
I cut way down, but I've gradually crept back up there. Oh, damn...... 
one of these days.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:23:19
Message Number 16994

Elvis is alive eh? Lost a hundred pounds, eh? Is doing miracles eh? 
Hmmmmm, you've got good drugs and YOU aren't sharing..... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:24:18
Message Number 16995

Yes, the news on the radio is sketchy but they DO have your attention 
when you are in the car..... I just wish they'd adress some more 
international subjects and not yap about the lady that found the boa
contrictor in her garden yestarday (for example)... Of course, I know
that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure they are much
more informative.... they also have those annoying talk shows though. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:28:45
Message Number 16996

The scars from verbal abuse simply don't show on the skin... they show
on the heart and soul....... and they don't heal as well as a physical
wound, and you never know when they are going to reopen and fester. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:30:38
Message Number 16997

OH? Have YOU seen Elvis too? Did he and Jesus drop by for lunch? Tell 
me, are they still hanging around with Jimmi.. you know, Jimmi Hendrix. 
 
EVERYTIME I open a Nat'l Enquirer, someone else has seen Elvis.. WAH! 
I wanna see him!!!! 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:34:32
Message Number 16998

Religion and logic.... logic and religion.... boy, there ya go again.. 
beating that poor dead horse to a pulp....... What you two have said 
sounds very intelligent..... but it's way over my head... I tried to 
follow what you were saying..... but I guess my attention span is shot.
Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed Vulcan? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:40:06
Message Number 16999

ARG! Lock that dog door....... don't let that puppy out!!!!!! 
 
Hi, Sin...... 
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:00:23
Message Number 17000

I really should havestated somethwhen I retorted at you. (sorry...)
 
Marraiges and dysfunctional families are 2 of the many places that
verbal abuse can be found.
 
An example of scwould be from long-term intimidation.
An example of that would be a parent saying something like "you'll never
amount to anything worthwhile."
Low self-esteem can magnify the effec, even if only because thon lets it
.
I hope that you understand the illustration that I've given above.
 
L8R! (if Ma bell doesn't find her wire cutters)
Knight Owl
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:17:50
Message Number 17001

Mosquitos are attracted to light. Could it be that the one wall was well
lit?
Just a theory...
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:24:13
Message Number 17002

True.... very true.
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Stay.....      
Date & Time: 05/22/91 10:13:08
Message Number 17003

I can fly!
I talked to Ma Bell this morning and worked out a payment schedule.
Oooooh, it feels so good that I got a 'stay of execution'. *]:)
L8R! (fer sure!)
Knight Owl
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:03:56
Message Number 17004

CHAS>...we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well discuss more 
C>interesting topic
 
Fine with me...
 
C>How about chocolate?
 
Y'know, it's funny you mentioned that, I had a craving for some chocolat
myself, today.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:06:46
Message Number 17005

DFy> Any idea what they're after?
 
Submitted for your approval...a man with a wall that attracts
mosquitos.  You are now entering: The Twilight Zone.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFRY           
Subject: Wesley?        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:20:43
Message Number 17006

So who is supposed to write the encounter between your DenChar and
The DenGuards?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: ALL                 
Subject: And so it goes 
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:27:31
Message Number 17007

  The former pirate's ship first's mate sighs, and turns around to 
walk back to the bar.
 
  "Y'know," he says, sitting back down next to the bunnymorph,
"I used to know this cute little storyboard, used to be in this
place called the Wyvern's Den?"  He looks up to see if she's 
paying attention.  She is, so he continues. "It was a great place.
People posted there all the time, and the thing ran like a bat
outta hell. It even got transferred over to another board, eh,"
he looks at the ceiling as if concentrating, "it was called aLTER
rEALITY.  Yup.  That was a nice place, too, and people still loved
the storyboard, but then they got cocky, and tried to make it 
a national echo, and it just died."  The bunny yawns, and so he
decides to wrap it up.  "Anyway, I just wish that it was still around.
It would be nice to visit..."  he lifts his glass up.  "Could I 
have another one of these, please?"
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SINDAR              
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:50:03
Message Number 17008

Welppers, welcome, glad yer here, and glad yer well, here.  Go ahead
and move yer dog house here.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:52:25
Message Number 17009

Okay.  You're saying that people should listen (etc.) to any
music people want; BUT you're saying that "children" shouldn't
be able to listen to music with certain ideas.
    
   Okay:  If you were President, would you try to get a law passed that
forbids "children" from listening to "certain types of music"?  And, if
so, what would determine whether or not a child could listen to the
music?  Merely containing certain words?  Describing certain concepts?
(Just curious: What concepts?  If all you said was "sex," would an 
child be allowed to listen to an extremely graphic song about a multiple
murderer?)  And what determines who is a "child"?  Age?  Parental 
consent under a certain age?
     
   If I were President, I'd keep my hands FAR from any law like that.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:58:22
Message Number 17010

>I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this.
     
   Ah, two steps forward; one step back.  Keep trying to cut back, 
you'll make it.  Then QUIT.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:02:26
Message Number 17011

> I know that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure
> they are much more informative.... they also have those annoying
> talk shows though.
   
   I'm a debate addict.  When I can't get enough of it on this board,
I turn to Rush Limbaugh.  The man is SO wrong on SO many issues, that
I can happily yell at him on the radio for hours.  (Unfortunately, he
doesn't respond.)
     
   I love those talk shows, though.  To each their own?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:05:33
Message Number 17012

"When in doubt... it's Elvis!"
     --- Slogan from a button.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:10:29
Message Number 17013

> Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed
> Vulcan?
    
   Where?  I see only intelligent Vulcans around here.
   
   It's been mostly a debate about words, and semantics.  The three
words debated have been "logical,"  "true" (sometimes "correct"), and
"useful."  I've been defining the words in this way:
    
   Logical:  Applying logic to a set of assumptions.  It makes NO 
      difference how reasonable the assumptions are, so long as
      good logic has been applied.  My example:
    
      All Armadilloes are Green.
      God is an Armadillo.
    -------------------------------
      God is Green.
    
      This is a perfectly logical sequence, although I'd be hard pressed
      to find anyone who either believes the assumptions or the
      conclusion.
    
   True (or "correct"):  Able to be verified.  It's a true statement 
      that my shirt is blue, because I can verify it.  It's not a true
      statement that, say, a pink elephant exists.  That does NOT mean
      the same as "there does not exist a pink elephant," though -- it
      just means that it has not been verified that a pink elephant
      exists.
     
   Useful:  An assumption which, though it may not be verifiable -- and,
      indeed, might be wrong -- still explains a portion of reality.
      For example, a useful assumption would be: Water boils at 100 
      degrees Centigrade.  It's true, here in Florida, but not in 
      Denver. 
     
(continued, next message.)
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Page 2         
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:23:50
Message Number 17014

   Now, I expect both Turtle and Chaz to jump over me when I write
how I've seen their opinions:
    
   Turtle jumped into the middle of the discussion with the quote:
"That's why religious discussions are not logical."  (I.E. They're not
verifiable, therefore they're not logical.)  All I've been saying is
that a religious discussion CAN be logical (i.e. it can have logic
being applied to it), but the assumptions might not be verifiable.
    
   Chaz and I have been hammering out our differences of definition.
He (and Turtle, I might add) seem to think "logical" means the same
thing as "true."  In other words,  something isn't "logical" according
to him, if the assumptions aren't verifiable.
    
    (One thing that surprises me:  No one has tried to jump on me for
saying that something wouldn't be "true" if it's not verifiable.  Praise
Occam for that!)
    
--------------------------------
    
   There's another discussion with Turtle that seems to have petered 
out.  It was (at one point) about different moral viewpoints.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:31:50
Message Number 17015

Yeah, there's a LOT of verbal abuse in marriages and dysfunctional
families.  If you're interested, some really good guides to breaking
the circle of verbal abuse are in the books: "The Gentle Art of 
Verbal Self-Defense" by Dr. Elgin.
     
   That example you gave was pretty blatant.  A more subtle example of
verbal abuse would be, "If you loved me, you wouldn't want to go 
bowling."
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:34:25
Message Number 17016

>Mosquitos are attracted to light.
     
   Nope!  The wall on the outside was no better lit than any other wall
around.  When the mosquitoes found their way inside, the wall they were
on was very near a light, yes -- but there are two other
lights nearby (less as bright) which they ignored.  The only thing I can
think of: they were all on the wall above the sink.  (Not in the sink,
though.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:37:04
Message Number 17017

Jes' trying to get rid of the buggers, without using poison.  That's
all.  When you don't leave food out, ants don't come.  What am I doing
to tell the mosquito brains "CHOW TIME!" -- on a wall?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: THUMPER ONE         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Warren Peace   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:47:37
Message Number 17018

 Oooops! Oversight on my Part Turtle. I dropped by to Buffer the New BBS
List and Saw that I'm MIA. MY Fault, I never sent you the new number. As
you may or may not know, We moved to a new Phone Area, soooo here it is.
 
          Warren Peace BBS
          813-922-6542
          24 Hours, 3/12/24Bd
          Furry, Funky, And Frazzled
          On-Line Games, 
          Separate Message Areas For Adults and Minors
          (But no "R" or "XXX" rated areas.)
          And a Cute, Grey Fuzzy Bunny As Sysop!
          NO FILE AREAS OTHER THAN TEXT FILES AND ASCII PICS.
                  (Guess who ran out of HD Space)
          Give It a Call...
 
  Thank you!
                                     Thumper One
===========

From: THUMPER ONE         
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Elvis          
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:56:59
Message Number 17019

S>....Elvis.. WAH! I wanna see him!!!!
 
      So Drop by the house some time, and I'll sing "Hound Dog" for you,
It's hard for me to meet all the fans. Miracles are over rated. I just
Humm a few bars, say "Thankyouverymuch" and Zip back into A Ronco-u-ARF-
Em Dement-sion Portal Given to me by the space aliens...
                                          Thumpelvis
===========

From: THUMPER ONE         
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:01:58
Message Number 17020

 Th Dog's here too? Nifty! Just Pet himat the base of his tail and he'll
Whimper for you. Oh and Try not to Excite him to much, He'll piddle all
over the landscape. Hi Sindarella! :) shall we ARF a bit? Naw maybe not
here, To many Watchers....
                                             Da' Bunny
===========

From: THUMPER ONE         
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Smokers        
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:04:41
Message Number 17021

 Smokers Should be strung up by their nostrils till they repent their 
Smoking sins to the great Armadillo Goddess. After they repent, They 
/MIGHT/ be permitted to rejoin this enlightened society of ours...
                                              Taking yet ANOTHER drag,
                                                    Thumpy
===========

From: THUMPER ONE         
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:08:14
Message Number 17022

  Ok D-Fly, Lemme Test this out...
     All Rabbits are Fuzzy.
     /I/ Am a rabbit.
     there Fur,
     /I/ Am Fuzzy.
  
   that would work if not for the fact that I'm Rapidly losing my Fur. 
 
What do you think?  If I Lose my Fur, will I no longer be a rabbit?
Or Will I simply be a Bald Bunny?
       Implants! Implants! I /NEED/ Implants!!!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:19:18
Message Number 17023

>Religious arguments A R E 'logical' - - you have assumptions, ...
 
No, religious arguments borrow the techniques of logic and put their
statements into logical terms. That's not the same thing as saying
they're logical. Any argument that can be phrased as a syllogism is
not necessarily 'logical' because of it.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:21:30
Message Number 17024

>You sure? I'm drivin...
 
Positive.
 
Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just
today picked up a rebuilt transaxle for it...heh, heh...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:23:07
Message Number 17025

>Who's the FGOH?
 
Uh...Saavik?
 
>GOH?
 
Ya got me.
 
>Artist GOH?
 
Jimmy Chin, of course...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:27:09
Message Number 17026

Well put. Also put well.
 
Well, I'm glad you agree with me... :)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:28:12
Message Number 17027

>Any ideas of what they're after?
 
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Sorry, I'm not sure I can
really get a grasp on what motivates a mosquito...you're talking about
an animal that's about as sophisticated as a windup toy, so it shouldn't
be 
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/22/91 20:22:26
Message Number 17039

TS>You sure?  I'm drivin'...
 
T>Positive. 
 
Ok...but I need you to sign this waiver first...
 
T>Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just 
T>today picked up a rebuild transaxle for it...heh, heh...
 
Awright!  But you're too late...Steve already got himself a fulltime 
ride...
===========

From: THE METAL HEAD      
To: ALL                 
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/22/91 21:05:01
Message Number 17040

   When is the next Pentacon?
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:40:37
Message Number 17042

Yeah, I know that my examples were pretty extreme. They were the only 
ones that I could think of at the time.
As for the 'If you love me, you wouldn't go bowling' aspect; 'd chalk
that up to the immature intimidation category of verbal abuse.
L8R!
Knight Owl
(come to think of it, what form of erbal abuse *is* mature? )
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:45:17
Message Number 17043

I'd say then, that the lttle buggers were attracted to:
A> The residue from the kitchen enviroment (fumes, etc. in the paper)
B> the moisture in the area.
 
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:39:05
Message Number 17045

  I've already discovered that he likes being scratched behind the
ears, and under the chin.  And he gets walked hourly.  Whether he
wants to or not.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: Smokers        
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:40:54
Message Number 17046

   Saavik said she wanted to quit.  Jes' giving her encouraging words.
Hmmm... maybe the Pavlov method will work?  Wire up a box of her 
favorite brand o' cigarrette with, say, 10,000 volts of current and
*>ZAP<* her whenever she reaches for one?  Maybe after ten tries, she'll
never reach for another cigarrette?
    
   Naaah. Too risky.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:43:44
Message Number 17047

   That depends: Can you be fuzzy without having fur?  
   Can you be furry without having fuzz?
   Can you be purry without having a buzz?
   Can you be buzzy without having a beer?
     
      Damned if I know.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:46:33
Message Number 17048

Dude,   Define logic.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:47:20
Message Number 17049

What's on my door?  Damn if I know... but I've found out that I'm not
the only one with a similar problem.  Thank the Ghods.  (Though why
all the mosquitoes are stopping here, at Viking, is beyond me.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:50:56
Message Number 17050

   Fine, Turtle.  PROVE, or in some way, VERIFY that the world is
more than six thousand years old.  Indeed, PROVE, or in some way, 
VERIFY that the world is more than five minutes old.  Dude, you do
NOT listen to my definitions.  A Creationist's stance is non-
contradictory, but it DOES make some strange assumptions.  (I.E.
That God made the universe "old," and created bones of creatures which
never really existed, colloquially called the dinosaurs.)
    
    It is VERY possible for neither a statement nor its negation to
be VERIFIABLE.  And I have stated at least three times that I equate
truth with verifiability.  
     
   
    Even still, I apologize.  You're right:  the ideas of experimental
science did come from Greek thought, and were appropriated by 
Christianity.  Or at least two of them did: that the universe has an
order, and that a finite number of laws will explain everything.  The
repeatability of experiments I'm not so sure of -- most Greek
intellectuals were more interested in experiments of the mind than 
of the physical realm.  
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE METAL HEAD      
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:04:11
Message Number 17051

   Hate ta tell ya this, Metal Head, but this board has really little
to do with the PentaCon.  You might try calling Beyond Chaos (if it's
still up) or Rocky's board for info about that.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:05:40
Message Number 17052

   No verbal abuse is mature.  All verbal abuse is degrading, both
for the abused and the abuser.  An extremely difficult kind of
verbal abuse: "Some teachers would have a hard time believing a story
like that."
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:07:45
Message Number 17053

Possibility A> seems much more likely, now.  Oh, well.  Thank the
Ghods for Raid!
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Smokers        
Date & Time: 05/23/91 10:20:11
Message Number 17054

Pavlov?  I thought that was called shock therapy.
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: ALL                 
Subject: hi, I'm back.  
Date & Time: 05/23/91 17:56:42
Message Number 17056

 Sorry for not posting lately.  I've been extremely busy.  Going here 
goine there, buying all sorts of junk.  I now have a portable CD player,
a Nintendo, a bunch of CDs and cartridges.  I'll try to hang around more
again, my apologies.  So, how is everyone? 
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/23/91 18:57:18
Message Number 17057

>Awright!
 
Well, kinda. The weather ain't been cooperatin' too much with me on the
issue of getting the rolling temper tantrum I call a car back on the
road...I got the transaxle in, but I've been rained out three times
today already and don't have the driveshafts back in or anything...grr.
Oh well, I figured while I was at it I might as well go all the way and
fix a bunch of minor problems the damn thing has had for years, so I
finally broke down and bought a new accelerator cable too (after using
string and copper wire for a while) and even got a new keyswitch so
I don't have to hotwire the Bug every time I drive somewhere...zowie!
It'll be good to be mobile again.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:01:25
Message Number 17058

>Dude,   Define logic.
 
Random House New English Dictionary:
Logic (log'-ik), n. The science that investigates the principles
governing correct or reliable inference.
 
If you start with a premiss that cannot be shown to be correct or
reliable, a premiss that you believe simply because you want to believe
it or you think you will go to Hell if you don't believe it or your
parents told you to believe it when you were very young, then what
you have may be phrased like logic but it ain't logic. It's "I believe
this because I want to." That's not the same thing.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:04:06
Message Number 17059

>As I have stated at least three times, I equate truth with veri-
>fiability.
 
Yeah, and it's been a ridiculous statement all three times. A statement
is true if it describes a real phenomenon or event or condition, not if
some highly evolved monkeys can /prove/ that it describes reality. The
statement 'The world is essentially spherical, rather than flat' is
true now and it was true two thousand years ago when nobody could prove
it, and it was true when there weren't any sapient beings around /to/
priove it. (Or would you suggest that that statement has only just
recently become true?) The universe exists in a particular way and
behaves in a particular way, and it doesn't give a damn whether or not
some BBS user in Sarasota, Florida can demonstrate to the satisfaction
of his peers that it behaves that way. Once again: If the world was not
created six thousand years ago, and you believe that it was, the thing
which you believe is not true. Since you seem to be making up
defintions that suit your argument wherever it's convenient, though,
I will once again turn to the Random House dictionary and tell you
what it has to say about truth: "True or actual state of a matter; state
or character of being true; actuality or actual existance." Of the
word "True," it says, "In accordance with or not contrary to fact;
being really such; authentic." Damn, I do believe that means statements
about the world's age or the existance of God or the like can be true
or not true /by DEFINITION/ without regard to your ability to /prove/ it.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: whew/relig,etc.
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:43:33
Message Number 17062

Whew...where does one begin? It seems that this is more of a general
discussion now, which is fine.... I'm not sure we disagree - rather, 
we see things sometimes from somewhat different perspectives (and
sometimes not!)
 Is there any way to sum up? Nope!! (I'll check our next few messages
for an area in which to continue...)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:46:06
Message Number 17063

Re actions equiv to religions beliefs, my experience indicates that
MOST people who believe in God (and a standard - usually Christian -
religion), behave SIGNIFICANTLY different than their religious
dictates. What say you now, philosopher? :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Nat. Healthcare
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:48:39
Message Number 17064

You're fortunate in your language abilities: I lack those. My options
would be Australia, Canada, England, New Zealand...that's about it....
And as much as I admire those countries, and find PLENTY to criticize
right here, I prefer the US to any other country (all in all), no 
matter whether I could speak other languages or not. Not that I would
mind spending some years ALL over this globe.... Re criticisms, I'm
still INCREDIBLY pissed off at the Supreme Court's decision re free
speech in (partially) Federally funded clinics: If I weren't so mature,
I'd find a way to poison those old judgebastards....
(Jes' my li'l ol' opinion)....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Birdraising    
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:53:03
Message Number 17065

Hahahah...ugly bird-ducklings, eh? Well, I can tell you really enjoy
your hobby (well, more than a hobby, I'm sure)....have you thought
of raising other kinds of birds/animals??
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: music          
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:55:06
Message Number 17066

Some very good points re music. My first thought is that the "problem"
may have to do with access.... Are there ways to provide "parental
control" over what kids (especially pre-schoolers) listen to? I know
that there are lockout options on cable TV.... My feeling is that no
matter what a kid _hears_, it's not gonna radically change his beliefs
(oops, "his/her" beliefs)... I think we forget how we were when we were
kids... As much as I got into trouble here and there (nothing too
outrageous), it was never related to any music, or play, or movie, or
book that I experienced....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:58:34
Message Number 17067

I always wondered about that: don't wolves and stray dogs kill and
eat chickens?? How do _they_ do it??
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:00:13
Message Number 17068

Hahahahaha....speaking for myself (and all sane people, hahahaha), to
summarize, we're discussing whether religion and logic, ummm, whether
it's logical...umm, no, if religion causes, well, creates, ummm...no...
What the hell were we talking about???
 
(no more tokes for me!)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: chocolate      
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:02:38
Message Number 17069

I've been trying to analyze _why_ I love chocolate, and how to
accurately define the taste sensation - that powdery, liquor-like,
dark, full taste.....that's as close as I can make it out...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: music          
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:05:19
Message Number 17070

Re music/censorship/children, what I find interesting is why certain
"graphic" songs are popular! It's more than hype - there are so many
to choose from, certain ones appear to be better (oops, make it in
quotes) music!! I'm sure there are plenty of sexually-oriented songs
wilder than what we usually hear, that just didn't "catch on"....
Me? I don't like words with music....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: true/verifiable
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:08:49
Message Number 17071

OK, I'll bite: certainly, there are things that are true and - at
least not yet - not verifiable, at least not provable. The problem
is that "true" loses most meaning, for that very reason: if not
verifiable, who proclaims it "true"?? Why should others believe??
And at what level is "verifiable" true-ly verifiable? We each find
a point (I believe)...I believe it's true (verifiably) that Republicans
are tight-assed selfish idiots. Verified by, for example, today's
Supreme Court decision! (ok, so I exaggerate: sorry...truly!!)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:13:08
Message Number 17072

More moisture in that wall???
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: B C            
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:38:58
Message Number 17073

Yeah Beyond Chaos is up. (923-2862) 24 hrs [ I think]
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:40:57
Message Number 17074

Got 'em outta there, eh?
 
What do you do abot dragon flies? *]:)
 
Gotta fly,
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: THE METAL HEAD      
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/23/91 22:24:37
Message Number 17076

 I be planning on having it at the likes of my Dog House sometime
just after the ending of schoooool!.... within a few weeks.
 
                 Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/23/91 22:25:57
Message Number 17077

  >...he gets walked hourly. Whether he wants to or not.
 
  I know....and this fact is getting to me a bit....specaily when I'm
surly up with my favorite chew, blasting my way through like a wonderful
arf dream and some idiot pokes me in the side cause he wants to strap
some leesh and collar around my throat and walk through the wet grass.
Now the leesh and collar I have now problem with.....tiss the arfing
high wet grass which like rubs against my stomach and I become like 
really itchy and you keep pulling me so like I chomp down onto your
leg and draw blood and...... oh....is the arf god rambling again? I
thought so when I saw you all picking up your....now...uhm, please..
uhm...put...put down the...oh no...--run run run--.......put down the..
--bang bang--.....GUNS!!!!!!!
 
                      Sindar
===========

From: CHRIS FURLONG       
To: ALL                 
Subject: Questionare    
Date & Time: 05/23/91 23:27:03
Message Number 17078

				I am looking for a new user questionare for remote access the file 
ends in the extension .Q&A. Can any body help me?
                        -/Chris/-
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:07:01
Message Number 17079

...Better to have lost at love then to never of loved at all.
  
Well...maybe, but it sure hurts when you loose and the only thing
that could heal it is more........<sigh>
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:08:26
Message Number 17080

I'm a fanatical fan of his. Have a book at home that is the "Pre-history
f the FarSide" and it even has a lot of his work that was originally
turned down to be published. He's quite an animal fancier. Travels to
Africa and all kinds of zoos and stuff to research his work. Even
occasionall investigates things stuck to the bottoms of his shoes. 
According to the book some scientist/fan of his even named a type
of myte after him..."*******  garylarsonus"....for real!!!
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:12:13
Message Number 17081

>>>pound with your brain...
>>too soft and squishy...
  
What about if you froze it first??? hehe
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:13:43
Message Number 17082

>>if you forgot that one you're wasting your time...
  
Well here's a story, about a lady...who was bringing up three very
lovely girls....AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
(SnakeByte pulls all his scales off and slithers onto the road
in a feeble attempt to repent for singing the Brady Bunch theme song). 
 
hehehe
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:16:23
Message Number 17083

>>>mental bullies....
 
I would rather think of some of us as Mental Body Builders. Just
go to the beach and flex that large, gray muscle. 
   "Heeeey babe. How 'bout me doing some trig calculations for you.
    See that whimp...I'll go kick pi in his face...hehe"
Anyway, I don't think verbal abuse takes much gray matter, just a 
loud mouth and a stripped clutch for a brain. I guess at some time 
or another we're all guilty of that....gulp!
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:20:59
Message Number 17084

>>>like a quick kiss from your grandmother...
 
More like a quick kiss from YOUR grandmother. I've been without a 
grandmother for several years now <sniff-sniff>. Have to climb that
tree again (or find your grandmother)........ssssssssssssSSnakebyte
===========

From: RAT                 
To: THE METAL HEAD      
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/24/91 17:20:28
Message Number 17087

We already have a Pentagon.              -----
	                                       /       \
                                      /         \
                                       \       /  
                                         \   /
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/24/91 18:38:27
Message Number 17088

Sure seems like a double bind there....tho, guess what?, there are
ways to break out!!
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: G. Larson      
Date & Time: 05/24/91 21:52:45
Message Number 17089

Hmm... I never knew ya had to study for sick comics, hehehe...
 
In Lechter's at Sarasota Square Amll, they hava a few 'Far Side' coffee 
mugs.
One has a picture of a scientist working on a bomb, and behind him is 
a guy ready to pop a paper bag.
 
Have you ever seen any of Sam Gross's comics? His work's been published 
in Playboy & other mags... I have a book called 'I'm blind & my dog is
dead'. It's hilarious.
L8R!
Knight Owl
.s (damn... wrong board)
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:10:43
Message Number 17093

Verbal abuse can be found anywhere... and usually is. Look at all 
the mental abuse in the workplace.... in the schools..... (sigh) in 
the world. 
"You'll never amount to anything worthwhile." That's gotta be the 
worst thing that /anyone/ can say to /anyone/... but hearing it year 
after year as a child... god, it's got to destroy the last shred of 
esteem in a child. And certain children are more sensitive to this 
than others.... 
But ya know, there's all kinds of abuse.... there's outright neglect... 
ignoring a child can do as much damage as verbal abuse to his/her self
image. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:14:59
Message Number 17094

KO>Mosquitos are attracted to light. Could it be that the one wall was 
   well lit? 
 
Or perhaps Dragonfly was well lit, eh? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:18:38
Message Number 17095

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a debate that'll never be lost or won. Because 
it all falls back to a dirty word called censorship. No, I don't want
my children listening to songs with graphic lyrics of any kind, but 
would I support a ban against that music.... No... because I think 
censorship can be abused too easily. One mans poison is anothers ...you
get the point... 
If you allow one group of people to decide whats acceptable in music, 
then they;ll sooner or later be dictating in other areas.... 
it'll snowball...... always does. I certainly think they should put 
some kind of rating label on certain music, just like they do movies. 
And perhaps they could restrict what ages can buy certain music... I kno
kids could work around that just like they do the cigarettes and beer 
laws but it could help that parent who doesn't know any better. Like 
the kids ask for Two Live Crew and they go out and buy it, not realizing
what's on the tape. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Page 2         
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:27:18
Message Number 17096

Thank you for that explanation of the on going conversation concerning 
logic, religeon, ect..or is that etc. 
My headache is gone now, thank you.... :) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: Elvis          
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:30:26
Message Number 17097

TO>So Drop by the house some time, and I'll sing "Hound Dog" for you... 
 
Er, uh...... will ya play the guitar and swivels yer hips too, O mighty
Thumpelvis??? 
 
This /I/ gotta see...... make sure ya wear the white costume, the oine
(one) with the rhinestones and the really huge belt buckle..... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:33:06
Message Number 17098

TO>...Try not to excite him (Sindar) too much, He'll piddle all 
   over the landscape. 
 
Not to mention, your foot. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: THUMPER ONE         
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:34:43
Message Number 17099

TO>If I lose my fur, will I no longer be a rabbit? 
 
No, you will be a Hairless Hare...... they actually /do/ have a breed of
hairless rabbits..... but they have to be the ugliest things you ever 
saw in your life..... 
 
Thumpy, I will love you even when /all/ the hair slides down your back. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:38:44
Message Number 17100

What's a FGOH???? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:40:35
Message Number 17101

T>Jesus and Elvis are /everywhere/
 
Hmmm, that explains why everytime I eat a peanut butter sandwitch... if 
I lay it down for a moment and turn my back... it disappears! 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Bird Births    
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:41:58
Message Number 17102

Wellll, yeah, I raised them.... kinda.. I've got a house full of kids, 
AND birds, AND let us not forget... the Arfers.... (even if we try, we 
can't forget them) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:43:24
Message Number 17103

SN>...it is hard pulling those bone splinters out of your throat, ya 
    know. 
 
Yeah, but that's not where they usually end up.... think lower.... think
bowels.... think instestines.... and think severe pain. Ouch,,,, just 
thinking about it makes me want to arf.. er barf... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:46:21
Message Number 17104

SN>....nuff said. 
 
Nuff said! 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:47:50
Message Number 17105

Labble? Hmmm, isn't that the thing you use to scoop soup? OH, no, that's
a ladel... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: THE METAL HEAD      
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:48:57
Message Number 17106

The next Pentacon is scheduled when schools out (no date set that I know
of yet) at the home of Terran Trace and Warren Peace. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:51:06
Message Number 17107

DF> And he gets walked hourly... 
 
It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't chase every cat he saw would it? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Smokers        
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:52:08
Message Number 17108

Pavlov method? That would be a shocking experience. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:53:46
Message Number 17109

Actually this is to all: 
 
Beyond Chaos is back on line....... Message based BBS run on C-net. 
A very nice board... 
  
                        Kaos 
                    300/1200/2400 baud
                    24 hours a day 
                     923-2862
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: hi, I'm back.  
Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:56:30
Message Number 17110

Welcome back... we missed your ego... hehehe. You keep buying all that 
stuff, and you'll have to get a bigger apartment. By the way, how's the 
wheels? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Birdraising    
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:03:36
Message Number 17111

I
I've been raising things all my life... (hehehe... like hell, for
instance)...no, seriously.... I've raised Parakeets, mice, rats, 
various breeds of dogs and horses, pigs, cows, chickens, ducks, and now
Cockateils...... Believe me, if I had acreage here, I'd have livestock 
again. (maybe even a little Woodstock too) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: music          
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:07:54
Message Number 17112

Well, I can control what my kids listen to and watch in my presence and 
I can be pretty assured that the preschool and the after school care 
people aren't going to be showing "nasty movies" or 2 Live Crew to the 
kids.... but I dunno about some of the other kids my son hangs with. 
They seem to have no restrictions on what they watch and listen to... 
and when I restrict him.... then it makes him look like a "baby"... he 
says.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:10:09
Message Number 17113

Yep, a dog or a wolf or a coyote will eat a chicken, or any other bird 
for that fact... but they are eating it raw.... they could still have 
problems digesting the bones.... but raw poultry bones aren't nearly 
as dangerous as cooked ones. You should still never feed an animal 
poultry bones though. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:12:07
Message Number 17114

CD> No more tokes for me! 
 
Well, quit Bogarting and pass that thing on!!!! 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:13:36
Message Number 17115

SN>I be planning on having it at the likes of my Dog House.... 
 
Kinda crowded, doncha think? I'm confused though... I was told it would 
be at de home of de Terran and Warren.... is I wrong? Obviously, I is 
wrong..... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:16:05
Message Number 17116

SB> Well, here's a story, about a lady...who was bringing up three 
    very lovely girls... 
 
Nice try. (Saavik holds up a placard "8.5" 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: restrictions   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:18:52
Message Number 17117

Thee are some difficult choices there, but say he spent an afternoon
listening to 2 Live Crew....what do you think would happen to him?
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:19:50
Message Number 17118

Ahh, raw vs cooked: I never thought of that!!
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Mind Matters   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:20:19
Message Number 17119

Heheheh...(re toking/Bogarting)...brings back fond memories.... :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: ALL                 
Subject: Picnick!!      
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:21:38
Message Number 17120

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       (Wyvern's Den 'in absentia' temporarily)
 
Incredible giveaways, Incredible (cheap) food, Incredible talk!
 
 When?  Saturday, June 7th, 10 AM to Noon
 Where? Chef Paul's, Tamiami Trail (Rt 41) at 16th ST (Gulf side)
 Who?   ALL callers, sysops, friends, spouses, etc.
 Why?   Because there will be great giveaways, great conversation
        and an inexpensive fun time!! (Last Picnick 'til FALL!!)
 
   For more details, call Suncoast City at (813)953-5505
 
-----And a SPECIAL Invitation to aLTERED rEALTIY Callers ! I got ----
-----Some GREAT stuff for you-all....we'll be reserving 35 places,---
-----(with another 10 in reserve).....hope you-all can make it !! ---
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:52:15
Message Number 17121

  >What if you froze it first???
 
   Well, frozen it may prevent it from cracking just right. Now, if
you place it into a zip lock bag, you could smash and smash and Smash 
AND SMASH AND SMASH!!! oh...sorry....
 
                     Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:55:40
Message Number 17122

>theres outright neglect....
 
   Yeah, what about that commercial.....this is your brains, this
is your brains on drugs...imagine what that musta done to the kid
whose brains those WERE!....Geeez, now we are surving up body organs
and breakfest foods and peole are worried about movies with violence!?!
True any type of verbal abuse can and is harmeful to WHOEVER hears it,
but many of the things shown on tv could also be misinterprted. Just
look at some of these kids on candid camera. True this is to be a
comedy show, but these kids do not know this and are giving some of
the truest answers and yet alot of the answers are a bit scarey!
 
              Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:58:41
Message Number 17123

>or perhaps Dragonfly was well lit eh?
 
  Damn, I knew we shoulda taken him outta the microwave a bit
earlier.... now he has to converse with the night lights!
 
              Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:02:02
Message Number 17124

>breed of hairless hare....
 
   SAAVIK.....I TOLD you to stop playing with the Erilady around the 
bunny farm..NOW look what ya did.....what a cataclysmic creation you've
made here....geeez, now every bunny will be shaving themselves and
putting neon painted strips down there sides....great, JUST great!
 
                  sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:04:32
Message Number 17125

lay it (snadwhich) down and it disappears...
 
   No...thats just because you have a mouth on your back also which
you have never seen....
 
                   Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:06:15
Message Number 17126

  >oh, no, thats a ladel....
 
   Whatever Saavik, remember...your the Bitch God, you can just create 
new things if they do not exist...Vulcans have been known to do this...
a lot!
 
                     Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: SinPuppy       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:07:35
Message Number 17127

  >didn't chase every cat he saw would it....
 
   HEY...I dont chase every cat I know....theres a few even "I" dont 
know that I chase...most fun I have those if chasing those parked
cars...doesn't do wonders for your face in the morning but still....
its fun...
 
               Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:11:02
Message Number 17128

   >Beyond Chaso back up line...
 
   Oh...so now you are making PLUGS! eh? what, you were bribed?
Trying to get access? I KNOW you Vulcan types, ye dont just make
posts about boards fer nuthing.... so...what was it Saavik....your
surrounded....
 (the arf children begin barking in surround sound.)
 
                      Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:14:13
Message Number 17129

  >petacon housing...
 
   Naw, I guess yur right....I WAS planning on having it at my
house but I was talking at Rocky yesterday and it sounds like 
he was planning it fer his house....so I didn't egg it thing on...
I dont mind though, he can have it there.
 
                      Sindar
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: chocolate      
Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:01:11
Message Number 17130

CHAS>I've been trying to analyze _why_ I love chocolate
 
Why?  
 
CHAS>...and how to accurately define the taste sensation
 
Hmmm.  It's that particular brown candy stuff that always burns the 
back of my throat. Howzzat?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: true/verifiable
Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:03:37
Message Number 17131

CHAS>I believe...that Republicans are tight-assed selfish idiots.
 
Grrr.  What'd they do to you, anyway?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:37:38
Message Number 17132

T>So, how the hell are you? :)   
 
Much better thank you.  As I speak I recover and recollect with a 
fond smile a day of debauchery, drinking and dastardly doings at 
Cocquina beach where a Cajun fella that I work with put on a hell of
a BarBQ there.  We had a blast.  My attitude is much improved
(in spite of the toe I broke there) which I needed after putting in
a 65 hour work week.
                    A Rode-hard-put-away-wet JonBoy
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: sale stuff     
Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:41:21
Message Number 17133

T> You're selling an /Altair/?? You gotta be shittin' me!!
 
Nope - of course it ain't the very first with the flip switches etc
it is the B series that had the bootstrap in ROM and expected to see
a terminal hooked up.
	                                       JonBoy
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:05:59
Message Number 17134

You are right on allounts. Ynfortunately, I've become tha victim of ver-
bal abuse that leads to the possibility of physical injury. (refusal 
from a co-worker to help me with heavy lifting)
I have full intention on making waves on this matter with MGMT via a 
formal greivance. I hate to do it, but at this time, I find it extremely
necessary to do so.
 
L8R!
(God, I hurt!!!)
Knight Owl
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: ...            
Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:21:07
Message Number 17135

The things that are withheld from kids, including curse words, graphic
lyrics, and movies have been subject to censorship in one way or another
. By that I mean that parents, and special interest groups have made the
effortsof their own accord.
 
Allese things that are witheld amount to nothing but what exists, but
isn't acceptable in open conversation or acts. 
 
Granted, in time the children will learn of sex, etc. but there are also
things that will remain taboo for their lifetime as they have in ours.
 
(I hope that you understand what I'm trying to say... conversations like
this are better in person)
L8R!
Knight Owl
( I feel like I flew into a wall. *OUCH!*)
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: fond memories  
Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:30:29
Message Number 17136

Me too! *]:)-
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: JONBOY              
Subject: altair         
Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:35:25
Message Number 17137

If you're gonna come to the indoor piknik, bring a picture of the ALTAIR
if you can. It sounds cool!
L8R!
a nastolgic
Knight Owl
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:32:13
Message Number 17140

T> ..(after using string and copper wire for a while) and even got a new
keyswitch so I don't have to hotwire the Bug...
 
If you the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it? 
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: hi, I'm back.  
Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:35:06
Message Number 17141

T> ..and wondering' when you're gonna post in the storyboard, boy... :)
  
BOY! Boy?  I said, I said, "Youra trendin' on might thin ice, son.'
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:42:02
Message Number 17142

  I spoke to Thumper this morning and he said that Rocky and he was plan
ning on having Pentacon III at their house in about three weeks. 
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:46:28
Message Number 17143

SB> Well here's a story, about a lady..who was bringig up three very
SB> lovely girls...
  
AAAARRGGGHHH....is right, god, I didn't even like that show when I was 
kid.  I hate it even more now. 
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: hi, I'm back.  
Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:54:02
Message Number 17144

SA> By the way, how's the wheels? 
  
The car is running fine, I do need to get a gasket changed though.  
Other than that the car is running fine, and you wouldn't believe 
the number of chicks I've ******* since I got the car.  (Yes, boys
and girls, the ego is still in full effect, if not worse.)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: chocolate      
Date & Time: 05/26/91 18:31:07
Message Number 17146

Arrgggh...not good. Does it really burn the back of your throat? That's
a shame!! 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Republicans    
Date & Time: 05/26/91 18:32:09
Message Number 17147

What they did to the country is what bugs me: First, the Supreme
(sic) Court's recent decisions re personal freedoms, then the
political/taxation laws which are creating a 2-economic-level
society - the rich and the poor. Then, their shutting down funding
of working (along with non-working) social programs (I used to work
in an Adult Education program, which did a HELL of alot of good -
it's funding was cut over 50%), then their point of view toward
minorities (disgusting)...need i go on???? Sure seems obvious to me!!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/26/91 21:53:57
Message Number 17148

SS>If you the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it?     
 
Aintcha ever seen those emergency belts that amounts to nothin more 
than a giant rubber band with a special fastener at the end?  Hell
I think Vdub owners invented half of the band-aids in existence!  I
actually saw a bug that the guy had used a belt from like around his
waist and another HE told me about used his necktie from going to church
A real masochistic crowd those folks!
                              A FORMER-VDUBBER JonBoy
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Republicans    
Date & Time: 05/26/91 21:58:51
Message Number 17149

CD> Republicans ... What they did to the country is what bugs me:
 
Well hell Charlie - I'm one of those weirdos that believe the whole
damned system is about due for an overhaul.  Too bad alternate parties
have such a hard time breaking ground.  What I find intrinsically 
stupid about people (not referring to you personally I should qualify)
is that they will vote a line without ever once considering the actual 
issues.  Example: most southerners vote democrat even though the party
espouses a line that is in direct opposition to what promted the war
between the states (state rights, strong state governments, a true
republic structure etc).  How'd this come to be?  Well what the democrat
party used to be resembles the Republicans of today and vice versa with
an emphasis on the vice.  I seem to recall the Whigs had something to do
with it.  Anyway - the system stinks right now.  The demos want more 
social programs and spending which costs money (read taxes) and the 
repblicans want less social programs but more industry aid (read
pork barrel politics and favoritism).  Bah!  Fire 'em all.  Problem 
with government is people.  They ain't happy just running the country
and providing for the welfare of the citizenry.  They have to play 
power games.  I'm all for the Sci-Fi writer that had the system whereby
the people in power were te ones who least wanted it.  Or has anyone
read the book by Piers Anthony - Triple Detente'?  Theory being if
you let your enemies rule your country they will be hindered in their
government by the realization that *you* are ruling their country.
Retaliation from within as it were.  Enough rambling...
===========

From: MAXIMILION          
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/27/91 20:06:24
Message Number 17150

 S> CNN tends to get stuck on...
 
      True...Sometimes when there's nothing else on TV (God Forbid..that
shouldn't happen...I have cable!) I'll set it on Headline News...It take
about 1 1/2 hours for the stories to start repeating themselves... For 
example, the Wexler Bird call competition...that was a Once an hour bit.
It's nice to have news 24 hours a day, but it gets kind of repetitive...
It's nice to have news 24 hours a day, but it gets kind of repetitive...
 
Sure...whatever.....
 
 
                                      -Pete
===========

From: MAXIMILION          
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/27/91 20:15:15
Message Number 17151

Well, as this democracy is supposed to work, even Robert, the guy who
stands by the side of the street has a chance at becoming president...
(Not a large chance, he's still working for food while stadning outside
a McDonald's that takes any application)_ No,w, I didn't say anything 
about competance, just qualifications....
 
 
                           -Pete
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: chocolate      
Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:52:01
Message Number 17155

>...how to accurately define the taste sensation [of chocolate]...
 
Real chocolate should be hard, not plastic or soft; should break
cleanly; and should be an even dark color. The taste should be
sharply defined, sweet and slightly bitter, with no trace of a sugary
or milky taste and no aftertaste at all. The sick joke Hershey's has
perpertrated on the American public under the misnomer of "chocolate"
ought to be a crime.
 
        --A finiky chocolate gourmet Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:56:32
Message Number 17156

>What about if you froze it first?
 
Then your aim would be off. When you freeze your brain, it futzes your
perception.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:58:52
Message Number 17157

>I certainly think they should put some kind of rating label on certain
>music...
 
Well, getting that to work would be very difficult. The agency that
rates movies is voluntary and industry-wide; producers don't have to
submit their films to be rated if they don't want to, and in any event
setting up an organization like the CARA in the music industry would be
very, very difficult. Prohibiting people under a certain age from buying
certain albums simply wouldn't work. It would be intellectually danger-
ous, as it would make producors unwilling to produce or distribute music
that might not be easily marketable (and what would such a law be based
on? Sexual content? imagery? certain words?). It would be an essentially
unenforcable law. It would not serve society in any clearly-defined way.
It would not serve the function of keeping objectionable albums out of
circulation--do you /really/ think 2Live Crew's last album would have
been so popular if nobody had attempted to censor it? No chance. And
would you seriously suggest that the record store clerk who sells Jimmy
a copy of a naughty album and thereby breaks the law should be jailed?
Finally,. it'd have the same problem laws based on movie ratings do:
they would certainly be struck down on an appeal. A fact few people are
aware of is that it is /not/ legal to pass a law that makes reference
to the Motion Picture Association's ratings, because those ratings are
(a) voluntarily and (b) given by an organizationm that is not a legal
entity and has no legal oversight. Finally, of course, it's just good
old-fashioned censorship, which is morally wrong.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:07:23
Message Number 17158

>What's a FGOH????
 
Fan Guest of Honor.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: sale stuff     
Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:12:18
Message Number 17159

>...it is the B series that had the bootstrap in ROM...
 
No way! It ain't really an Altair iff'n it knows what to do when you
turn it on...it's a purity thing...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:15:01
Message Number 17160

>If you [sic] the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it?
 
Sadly, no. That's something that you can't improvise...VW Type I's have
a BIG fan (oil-cooled engine) and there's a lotta stress on the fan
belt...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: I got it...    
Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:17:21
Message Number 17161

>A real masochistic crowd those folks!
 
Hey! We're not /that/ bad. 
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gas stations   
Date & Time: 05/28/91 13:34:32
Message Number 17162

    Geeeez Turtle.....see if I come to your Amaco station again and
have Tyler buy me gas again....(then again, what am I complaining
about, he did buy the gas.) Forget about poor wittle 'ol sindar here.
Sniff....naw...its cay....say good by to Tyler...say good bye to
Fennec...but when it comes to acknowledging the person DRIVING them...
sniff....heheheh...blah.....stalk at ye later!
 
                    Sindar
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:09:04
Message Number 17163

About the best idea I've heard for the Main Plaza is making it the
new spot for Selby Library.  Oops..that's the old Maas Brothers store
that was being suggested.  It'd help the parking, and downtown could
perk up somewhat.
 
But on to your message.  Roy and Mark of the local anime group tried
to rent out a store once for their meetings and it was a no go.  But
it's worth a try to see if we could rent it.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:19:02
Message Number 17164

>...Rush Limbaugh...
 
In an amazing team-up, George F. Will and Rush Limbaugh have now
joined together on their own daily talk show broadcast coast to
coast.  Half the free world promptly shot itself after hearing this
announcement.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: music          
Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:31:35
Message Number 17165

>As much as I got into trouble here and there...it was never related
>to any music, or play, or movie, or book that I experienced...
 
I can contribute my hellraising to 'Curious George' and 'Hamlet.'  Man,
talk about your bad influences.  :)
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Picnick!!      
Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:42:03
Message Number 17166

Saturday is the 8th, not the 7th.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: ALL                 
Subject: Religion       
Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:50:28
Message Number 17167

The following was found one day in the old video production room at my
school.  I'm wondering if it was written by someone in school or if
anyone had seen it before.  Anyways, it's a good read:
 
Philosophy of the World's Religions
Taosim: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it is not really shit.
Zen Busshism: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit has happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Protestantism: Let shit happen to somebody else.
Catholicism: If shit happened, you deserved it.
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to us?
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: restrictions   
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:18:54
Message Number 17169

An afternoon of listening to 2 Live Crew? My seven year old son? Well, 
he'd giggle like crazy at all the "bad words" he could recognize, then
he'd hum the songs to see if I knew what they were, then he'd sing them 
leaving out the words.... and sooner or later, he'd start slipping the 
words in.... you know, he's almost eight... and it's his job in life to 
agravate and push his mother into the asylum. 
 
I just think that if they continually hear this stuff on TV and the 
radio, etc... it just becomes acceptable to them to say those things 
and think about the implications of the songs.
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: bones          
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:22:18
Message Number 17170

Raw vs cooked... yep that's the ticket. 
 
Is it my vivid imagination, or is this board running very very fast. 
I mean, there's no hesitation between messages, and it's scrolling 
really well.... Can it be..... 2400 baud???? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Toking/bagartin
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:23:50
Message Number 17171

Yeah, I remember those "Cheech and Chong" kinda days. The "tree" at 
high school, the drive in theatre, the beach at midnight, the Bee Ridge
extention..... (sigh) sometimes I wonder how we live through our youth. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:27:06
Message Number 17172

I had to laugh when you mentioned that commercial "This is your brain,
this is your brain on drugs". When that first came out, Marshall and I 
were at Village Inn having breakfast. He's looking at the menu and he
yells (you know how kids blurt things out) "Hey, Mommy.... I want some
drugs for breakfast!!" Turned a few heads in the restaurant that day. 
 
Valarie is always taking the commercials at heart..... she wants one of 
those "cute little white guys" on the poppin' fresh commercial. We were 
at the store and she saw a Pilsbury cannister and yelled..... "Buy me
that little guy, Mamma." 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Mosquito God   
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:31:14
Message Number 17173

A Glow in the Dark Dragonfly???? Hmmmm, maybe now he's a cross between
a Fire Fly and a Dragonfly. Hey, maybe that's how God came up with the 
idea of Fire Flies.... then again, maybe I'm losing it again... damn, 
and I just found it. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:33:48
Message Number 17174

I didn't shave the bunnies!!!!! I didn't!!! Really, they really, really,
have a breed of bunnies who have no hair. But, gee, thanks for the neat
idea about the neon stripes.... 
......... Look out little bunnies...... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:35:44
Message Number 17175

SN>....that's just because you have a mouth on your back also which you
      have never seen.... 
 
Hmmm, that would come in handy when I wanted to talk behind my back, eh?
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: blah           
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:37:07
Message Number 17176

Vulcans create things that have never existed before? Hmmm, well, that
explains where you came from. Why, you're just a fig newton in my 
mayonaise...(figment)..... OUCH, ok ok, don't bite... you're real, you'r
real. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:39:21
Message Number 17177

For your persnickity information, I was plugging for Kaos as an unpaid 
endorsement..... so thpt! 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SINDAR              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:40:42
Message Number 17178

Now, are you sure? Pentacon will be at the Rocks. By the way, what does
"I didn't egg it thing on..." mean. You been tossing eggs at Rocky 
again?
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:42:57
Message Number 17179

I gotta ask, how'd ya break your toe? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:43:51
Message Number 17180

Absolutely! You must speak out if you have been injured on the job. 
Too many people don't speak out, then when they have reoccuring back 
problems (or something like that) they end up getting fired and they 
have nothing to stand on because the incident wasn't reported. 
Oh, there are still plenty of people out there who take advantage and 
abuse Workman's comp by exaggerating an injury... but more than not, 
an employee gets screwed because he suffered in silence. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: ...            
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:47:09
Message Number 17181

I know you can't shelter your child from the world and all it's evils...
.... but it's just that at certain ages, children get so damned 
independant... anything that ticks you off, they like... and those damne
Rap songs with the nasty lyrics seem to be the trick. 
God, I sound like a parent in the 50's screaming about the evils of 
rock n roll. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: hi, I'm back.  
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:50:08
Message Number 17182

Just when you thought it was safe to BBS...... dum dum....dum dum.... 
dum dum dum dum (that's supposed to be the music from Jaws)....
..... Scott Steel cruises by in his Wicked Womanmobile.... sounding like
the "old" Mr. Microphone commercial. "Hey, Babe, I'll be back to pick 
you up later..." Varoom..... he's back.... and my god, has the ego 
grown???? Whatcha been feeding that puppy, Steel? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: MAXIMILION          
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:53:34
Message Number 17183

Heh. Too true about CNN.... During the Persian Gulf Crisis, however, 
CNN was on my TV 24 hours a day.... but since then, it's on for about 
an hour.... yeah, that's about how long it takes before they start 
repeating themselves. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:56:48
Message Number 17184

T> (Telling the facts of life about labels on records) 
 
Well, it was an idea anyway...... I guess there is no solution. You 
made a good point about the labels.... they /would/ make them appeal 
all the more to the kids who /couldn't/ buy them. (sigh) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/28/91 22:00:29
Message Number 17185

HEY! I signed that petition to try to make the new place for the Selby
Library at the old Maas... this guy came around to my house with it 
and I thought that was a great idea. 
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: isnlsdg        
Date & Time: 05/29/91 13:08:26
Message Number 17187

SA>"Buy me that Little Man, Mama!" 
 
Ah, yes...buy me this, buy me that...money, money, money.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/29/91 15:07:28
Message Number 17188

I'm not really fond of our local library.  They waste money on these
really neat moving magazine shelves that don't save all that much space.
Their new computer system bites moose dung, and they need to go after 
the people with books that are a year late.  I'd be more than happy to
form a force to go door to door beating up those people with books that
are a year late.
"Sarah Conner?"
"Yes."
"You have an overdue library book.  Prepare to die."
BLAM!
 
Sticking it in Maas would give them more space, more parking, easier
access, and people would probably spend time in the downtown area.
===========

From: DEATH FENNEC        
To: RUFUS               
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/29/91 16:59:48
Message Number 17192

RU>  ...If you plan on making it permanently ...
 
     Yep.  It most likely will be permanent.
 
      /! Death Fennec -- ;>
===========

From: DEATH FENNEC        
To: ALL                 
Subject: California ... 
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:05:01
Message Number 17193

    Hello.  This is going to be a short letter, for I only have but a
few things to say.  I am going to be leaving for California on this 
coming friday.  I want to say goodbye to all of the people that I cannot
say goodbye to in person.  So, to all of you that will not be able to 
see me off, I want to say goodbye to you all.  I will call HERE whenever
I can, and I will write to those of you that would like to speak with 
me.  Although it would be really cool if Turtle got more than one line 
on this thing so that two people can talk to each other at once.  So, I
will speak with some of you later on.  C-Ya, all! :)
 
 
     /! Death Fennec -- ;>
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: restrictions   
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:16:06
Message Number 17194

  Not in the slightest f*cking way could one of those d*mn songs
ever get me to cuss. No d*mn way, you must be outta your *ss. Oh,
I see what you mean, I agree with ya also. It does happen. Kids hear
the words in the song, sing the song to themselves, hear others
singing out loud and wammo....
 
      Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Toking/bagartin
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:18:26
Message Number 17195

 >tree at high school/drive in theatre/beach at midnight..etc...
 
    One question...I was always courious about and figure you
guys couuld tell me, how many cranks did it take you to start your
car engines back then? Or did you jus have ta like kick the
Bronto really hard in the sides?
    Hehehe, jus joking guys.... maybe.
 
                 Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: verbal abuse   
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:21:12
Message Number 17196

   > Drugs for breakfest and the other children things of Saaviks...
 
   Again...like I said, like Mother like children...sounds like your
mentallity level there Saavik....Queen of all that Bitches.
 
                       Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:23:34
Message Number 17197

  > bunnies with neon stripes....
 
     Yeah, racing stripes now...watch out Turtle.... hmmm, interesting
idea....a Pentacon activity....a race between the bunny and the turtLE.
 
                THUMPER
                    vs.
                 TURTLE
 
(geeez, almost wish I would be here for that one!)
 
           Sindar...but you can call me god.)arf god that is)
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Pentacon       
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:26:20
Message Number 17198

 > pluging for Kaos as an unpaid endorsement....
 
    Yeah sure Saavik....and the Arf God eats cat food....
 
              Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:27:29
Message Number 17199

   > how did you (Jonboy) break your toe...
 
   Probably by kicking some lady who asked stupid questions
like, "How did you brak yur toe..."
 
               Sindar
===========

From: SINDAR              
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: California ... 
Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:30:39
Message Number 17200

  Ok, well, bye Fennec....been nice knowing ya and all...
wait....what am I saying...I'm going with you...uhm, so
I guess the same goes fer me too....bye guys...tas been great an 
all....see you on the other siide of the doggy door one day
an all.... blah, no mushy mushys.
 
         Sindar
===========

