From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: RAVEN               
Subject: rOAD rALLY.....
Date & Time: 05/09/90 00:56:23
Message Number  4352

Well, the turn-out was rather sad, but at least it gave me some
insight into how to do the next one.....watch for it!!!!
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: SAURON              
Subject: thermodynamics 
Date & Time: 05/09/90 00:59:15
Message Number  4353

Well I'll be........PUT A TIGER IN MY TANK!!!!
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: ummmmmm        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:01:15
Message Number  4354

<:           thanx
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:43:32
Message Number  4355

Yep, sounds very coherent to me. If you think the world is but a trial
through which you must pass to reach heaven, life will seem a trial.
I'd rather enjoy what's here, and deal with what I can't possibly know
about when it arrives.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:45:25
Message Number  4356

Okay, there is real (good) BBS software which will run on your machine,
but it's not readily available.. mine is.  Heck, there are PD MsDos
BBS's with more features than PBBS, that's one of the main advantages of
running an MS-DOS compatible, you have a readily available LARGE PD and
Shareware base. Telix is a great Comm program, and readily available..
do you have /anything/ which will do everything telix does.. I doubt it,
but of course you like cryptic commands.. (Yuck.. I just read the line
above.. I don't like it.. but your editor bites.. so you'll have to read
it. I wish people wouldn't have such good boards w/ such crappy software
aaarrgghhh!!)  
 
                         - Corwyn
                           (From the random depths of a sick mind)
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: This area      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:53:13
Message Number  4357

 Yea, I heard about it at OS/2-fest.. the door prize was 3 gigabytes of
ram.. so you could actually run the system comfortably, and even run
an APPLICATION or two.. talk about lucky, having enough memory to run a
program under OS/2!!
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: -=*><*=-       
Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:55:28
Message Number  4358

Hmm.. how did you get to be a snake? I'm having weird visions of a 
terror stricken man looking across the bed, and wishing he could slither
away.. hmm At least I haven't had any mornings like that recently.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: ALL                 
Subject: Storyboard!    
Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:52:00
Message Number  4359

   Missing the Wyvern's Den: Ranean Tales? Need another good-quality
storyboard? Try calling The Shadow (359-1717), and check out "The
Castle," a quasi-medieval storyboard with a few references to Amber
completely having been warped by Spellwind a few months back!
                   Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: ACAPULCO            
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:55:37
Message Number  4360

Thank you, Acapulco... By the way, it takes EXACTLY the same amount
of faith to say that there is no God as it does to say that there is
one.
             Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: KILLASHANDRA REE    
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:57:18
Message Number  4361

Dear Killashandra,
   Welcome to aLTER rEALITY.... At least, I don't think I've seen
your name before.
   Is Christianity "just another pair of spectacles"? It does its
best to make exclusionist claims ("Thou shalt have no other gods 
before me", "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of
demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the
table of demons." I Cor 10:21) -- at least in regard to these claims,
Christianity must be 100% correct, or 100% wrong.
   (At least Christianity isn't the only religion that does this.)
   Examine its other claims: that its workers performed miracles, and
that its Founder rose from the dead. Again, this is fairly common among
religions.
     
   What's different about Christianity is that the claims were made of
a person who allegedly lived at the same time as the people who wrote
the book: in at least the case of one of the Gospels, it was claimed
that only about twenty years ago did Jesus rise from the dead. There
were people still around who had known Jesus well, and could have
verified it. Why might have Mark written such a thing? Do you feel
it was pure fiction?
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: KILLASHANDRA REE    
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:12:05
Message Number  4362

  Do game-theoretic terms provide a sufficient reason for believing
in God? Well, to be a complete pragmatist, yes.
    Think about the eternal results of believing: either nothingness
or salvation. Think about the eternal results of not believing:
either nothingness or damnation. Nothing personal, but salvation
(even boring salvation!) seems a lot better to me than damnation.
(Even though the interesting people might be there.)
      
                Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Xnty...        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:16:57
Message Number  4363

Turtle,
   Found your own religion. Not only will it make you extremely rich,
you might create universal peace and brotherhood. Then again, you
might plunge the world into the Second Dark Ages.
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: YNGLING             
Subject: please...      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:19:02
Message Number  4364

Dear the Yngling,
   This past summer, I worked for Atencion San Miguel, a mostly-
English language newspaper in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico. One of
my co-workers told me about a Bible study going on Tuesday nights at
her house, lead by "Pastor Bill," a person who I had heard about before.
Intrigued, I went.
   Quite unlike the New College Bible studies I was used to, Pastor
Bill used his studies as a kind of a pulpit: to preach his version of
the Word. But he was an extremely charismatic man, and was quickly
building a following -- and I agreed with what he said, mostly. That
week, he mentioned that he had managed to rent a large room at a local
hotel (the meeting room) for every Sunday morning for the next few
months, and that the Sunday church would be meeting there from now
on. I went ahead and went.
   At first, Pastor Bill seemed to be an excellent preacher. He knew
the Bible well, and he could explain his ideas extremely clearly.
I started inviting people to come, myself, and talked with many of
his younger followers.
   About the third week I was there, he started making a few assumptions
within his speeches that I didn't like. (He accidentally let drop
that he was an Episcopal -- but no longer.) About the second time
this happened, after Church when most people had left, I asked him
how he interpreted certain Bible verses that seemed to go opposite to
what he was saying. (For those who are interested, he was preaching
that Christians do not have a sure salvation; that any sin can 
separate you from God, and once you are separated, you cannot return
to God's fold.) What got to me was that no one else seemed to notice
anything was wrong.
   After that, every week after Church, I asked him how he explained
certain Bible verses which contradicted his sermon. About the fifth
week, someone had found out about our talks, and a few started sticking
around for them. By my seventh week, about half the church did.
<Continued next message.>
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: YNGLING             
Subject: please...      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:33:13
Message Number  4365

<continuing with the story>
   By then, people started switching their alliegences away from
Bill. The problem was, most of them didn't know enough of God's Word
to successfully challenge him... and at least two asked me to present
their problems to Bill. (I refused.) Also, Bill had been a popular
person to explain personal problems to: by the end of the summer,
a third of them were coming to me. Pastor Bill was not pleased.
       
   Ever since Pastor Bill, I've been extremely suspicious of larger
churches, especially those based on the personality of the pastor.
(The charismatic churches...) Too many people knew how to be sheep --
and only how to be sheep. When their first shepherd didn't seem to
be all that great, they followed a second shepherd. 
   There was never a true "schism" -- but Pastor Bill lost a lot of
respect (not to mention some of his congregation.) Although I haven't
talked with any of the members since, I hope I've taught them to
think for themselves -- espectially in religion.
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Pizza=God      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:45:08
Message Number  4366

Dear Corwyn,
   Go back to your coffin. There's still a few hours of daylight.
            Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: God...         
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:51:02
Message Number  4367

Dear Black Magic (et al.)
   Everyone yells about "rights," "rights," "rights." ("It's a woman's
right to have an abortion."..."We have the right not to allow our
children to see pornographic magazines."..."Everyone has the right to
decent housing, food, education, and leisure.")
   Unfortunately, nature has given us NONE of those rights. Not even
the right to life, liberty, or the happiness of pursuit. The only
"rights" that any of us have are doled out by the government, and can
change with the times.
     
    Is it a "right" for women to have an abortion? Under the current
laws, yes. This might change, and by no means is it a "natural" right.
                  <Okay... I'll get off my soapbox now.>
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: -=*><*=-       
Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:57:54
Message Number  4369

Yes, but who cares about pornographic pictures of snakes?
            Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 09:31:40
Message Number  4371

Hope you're still listening. Been too busy to get to the modem but have 
been thinking ...
Okay, this time I wrote down some of the comments so I could remember 
what to answer. Is there a way to print this stuff out or put it on disk
to think about later?
I notice you call Adonai "he". At first I balked at this, but I do belie
believe that this may be appropriate. I would agree with the concept of
a god separate from life/time/space as patriarchal male concept. On the
other hand, the concept of the whole of creation as not so much a diety
but as a fully interacting, active Be-ing does correspond more to the
this-dimensional image of the goddess (as opposed to a goddess). Womyn
as we know us in humanity create within and about us at the same time.
Her name is (among others) Gaia.
Actually, this opens the relevance of other dimensions discussion. I
believe it is because we see ourselves as limited only to this two or
three dimensional physical dimension that we find ourselves contained in
such absurdities as dualities, dichotimies, polarities. It is like the
definition of good and evil -- these are two patriarchal constructs that
we see only from our perspective. If what we think of as good is see fro
from another perspective, then it is no longer good. It may not be evil
either. It may be neutral. It may be dangerous, exciting, daring, fun,
boring. There are dozens of other sprialing paths that lead off the 
linear division of good an evil. But as long as we limit ourselves to
the physical dimesion and accept only what these simple six senses tell
us, then we are forcing ourselves into a viewpoint that maintains and
reinforces these dualities in life. When we begin to accept, for example
the dream dimension as reality, we expand our consciousness. What if the
dream dimension, which most of us visit regularly, is true reality and
daily life is artificial? What if there is more?
I don't know how to end this, so I'll try stopping her and starting a ne
message.
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 09:46:28
Message Number  4372

Well, hope this worked.
As for the spark of the universe giving so much more to certain entities
I again have to say that it is only your perspective that sees humanity,
and banana plants as having more spark than rocks or earth. I am coming
to believe the earth, for example, is a living, breathing entity as much
as we are. She constantly gives birth, evolves, revolves and is being
attacked by her offspring in human form, mostly in patriarchal
limitation. Ask any gemstone advocate about the energy and power of
certain rocks and stones. I have no personal experience with moondust,
but I feel certain those scientists in labs are still trying to prove
their own alleged objectivity and have no idea of the potential that
may lie in real moondust. Maybe it is even part of the mother earth
that survived when someshow separated and spun into the universe. Of
course, I, too, am cursed with having grown up in patriarchal 
perspective so I see a separate moon where there may be no division at
all. I believe I am only now opening my mind/senses to perceive without
some of these limitations.
Mary Daly is a feminist philosopher at Boston College. You may like her
first book, The Church and the Second Sex, however, this is no longer tr
true to her theory. The second one, Beyond God the Father Toward a
Philosophy of Women's Liberation, steps off the cliff of patriarchy 
into New Feminist Time/Space. Several others follow including Wickedary,
Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism and Pure Lust: Elemental
Feminist Philosophy. I have yet to read them all, since each one takes
a lot of time and study to grasp the concepts. Most of them are
published through Beacon Press, a Unitarian Universalist related
publishing company.
One of her most exciting concepts to me (at the moment) is the idea of
taking whatever the patriarchy tells you is reality, seeing it, then
turning it upside down and that is what reality really is.
Guess that's all for now. Really.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/09/90 10:55:39
Message Number  4373

> There are PD MS-DOS BBS's with more features than PBBS...
 
But most of them are dippy.  I'm not really sure why, mind you, but a
lot of them are like WWIV--a lot of features, but even more "hardwired"
about things than PBBS is, i.e., even the menu text files are stored
internally.
    Turtle & I have two other Trash-80 BBS's with more features than
PBBS -- TCL2 and ERACS.  TCL2 is completely hardwired and is, well,
dippy (even more so than the MS-DOS ones I was talking about).  ERACS
is extremely powerful and very flexible, but is so much of a pain in the
ass I wouldn't go near it unless paid considerable sums of money.  It
literally rewrites the DOS so when you log on to it, you're really
logging on to the oomputer the same way you'd log onto a mainframe.  It
adds things like a programmable menu system, carrier check, and wheel
protection to TRSDOS; effectively, every command on an ERACS menu would
be a "door" to other BBS programs, including the subsystems for messages
and file transfers.  It's a really clever setup, but once you install
it IT WON'T GO AWAY because it's made itself an integral part of your
operating system.  Also, the message system, while it allows for 99
different conferences, has an EVEN STUPIDER EDITOR THAN PBBS DOES,
something you wouldn't think was humanly possible until you used it.  It
is literally so difficult to use than an average BBS-goer could not make
it save a message.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Storyboard!    
Date & Time: 05/09/90 11:03:58
Message Number  4374

Speaking of RANEAN TALES, that entire sub-base is likely to move over
here once I can get my system set up somewhere and get the last 40 or
so messages copied off it and post a new intro/summary here....
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: This area      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:00:56
Message Number  4375

>How silly of me. Z-System is an add-on for OS/2. I think it requires
>Presentation Manager, too, doesn't it?
 
I have never felt a compelling need to run a BBS with an official
policy on obscenity in the message bases...
                                        ...until now.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:05:18
Message Number  4376

>I wish people wouldn't have such good boards w/ such crappy software...
 
Watch it, Bub, or I'll start running ERACS and you'll have the pleasure
of dealing with an entirely command-driven system, no menus in sight...
...and I CAN CHOOSE THE COMMANDS...hehehehehehehe...............
                        --An 8-bit mutant hacker Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: real Christians
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:09:04
Message Number  4377

>...at least in regard to these claims, Christianity must be 100%
>correct or 100% wrong.
 
That doesn't necessarily follow. It is possible that Christianity has
the correct idea but a distorted view of god, so that the god which is
worshipped by Christians is the same as that worshipped by practioners
of another religion, and the distortion prevents Christians from
recognizing that fact. Also, the Bible does not make as strong a
claim to exclucivity as people would like to have it make--Jesus said
"no man comes to the Father except by me," but he didn't say "...and
there's only one way to do that." A religion which meets that
qualification in a manner which is not recognizably Christian may still
have validity from god's point of view--unlike many Christians, /I/ for
one would not assume god's ability to pass judgement on man. And didn't
Jesus himself speak of preaching to "different flocks"...??
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: nope...        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:22:38
Message Number  4379

It was normal ASCII!  /////  and \\\\\ were used, tho....
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: ack!           
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:23:20
Message Number  4380

This BBS software doesn't support a backslash!  That's dumb!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Xnty...        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:26:21
Message Number  4381

I don't do the "found your own religion" thing...it's too much like
work, and besides, it gets the IRS breathing down your neck. On the
other hand, I'd be happy to act as a creative consultant to someone
/else/ who was looking to start a religion.
            --A lazy Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: <*=-:-=*>      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:29:59
Message Number  4382

Who cares about pornographic pictures of snakes? Other snakes, of
course! (wanders away, muttering something about people who miss the
obvious...)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:33:02
Message Number  4383

ERACS has the dumbest message editor I've ever seen, sure, but the
beauty of an ERACS system is that you could run another BBS program
under it with relative ease...or even (gasp!) write your own. Every
now and then, late at night, I still debate putting up ERACS and letting
the dice fall where they may...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Deal           
Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:14:01
Message Number  4384

It's the forrunner of RBBS (the A is for Apple strangely enuf!)  Hmmmm
usually anything with Pro in it was written by Roger Wagner Publishing
and IS probably good.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real solutions 
Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:17:40
Message Number  4386

about half of that list are things that are VERY liberal in their 
interpretation.  If anything each year that passes stamps the book
ever more firmly as FACT not fiction.  The only parts left open
to "belief" are the assertions that it was directed by a omniscient
being, that he created us and this universe, and that this is his
record of his dealings with us and his plan for us.  As far as the
probelm of evil - NEVER has it been so exquisitly stated as in the
book of Job - the Bible does not attempt to evade any issues - it does
give food for MEDITATIVE thought - if you go looking for a blueprint
for life & happiness then life in general will disappoint you as well
as the Bible.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Foo            
Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:23:31
Message Number  4387

C'mon Chip - be CORRECT - not sensationalistic!  Ananias (& his wife)
were killed because they LIED about how much they gave when they
didn't have to.  Nobody was "keeping track" of whom gave how much
but they were deliberately trying to appear "holier than thou" by
giving only a small portion of the proceeds of the sale of their
property and claiming to have given it all.  According to the beliefs
of the early Christians all was owed to God as it came from God it was
a very early community effort at raising funds to survive in what had
become a very hostile land that prompted the land sale.  To "hold out"
and claim the benefits of their "sacrifice" was an outright insult to
God himself and all the others that had given all they had to the 
early Church.  It may seem extreme to us as far as punishment but -
we are judging by our values which is arrogant to an extreme to assert
that we are correct and other value systems are wrong.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: DELPHI              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:53:36
Message Number  4388

Just as a quickiee -- the actual reference to God in the Bible contains
both male and female qualities and as such is a major balk to Jewish 
people as they think it's a bogus gentile trick (even though their
own texts say it too).
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ALL                 
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:58:23
Message Number  4389

hehehehehehee
never fails - make a few remarks about God and even the lurkers come
out with barbed weapons.  Shoot - I couldn't log on for a few days and
had to capture all of the messages for leisurely digestion.  I'll post
after some serious thoughts.  Chip, Turtle - you folks are veritable 
GEMS!  Here I thought I might get a few canned comebacks and - wow!
Such neat little verbal repartee's.  I *was* slightly disappointed in
Turtle ending with the old weak -"more crimes, wars <ad nauseum> is
due to Christainity than anything else" crap.  Hell the Chinese have
eradicated entire cultures within their own in centuries gone by.  Right
now we have a group of priests in Nepal trying to maintain a bloody
status quo - face it Turtle *wherever* there has been a cause, good or
bad, there have been con artists and exploiters to take advantage of
the "followers" (sheep waiting to be sheared (is /this/ what Jesus
meant by His flock?) and pervert the cause to their own benefit.
Wars are caused simply by someone wanting power and making the mass
of humanity on his side believe that the other side has wronged them in
some terrible way that requires retribution.  Religion is just usually
a good excuse.
  I'll have to peek at my capture file for any more goodies...
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/09/90 17:36:58
Message Number  4390

Hello. I've seen the male and female qualities references. I'm thinking 
this is because they co-opted Yawaeh from the Goddess concept, making
him a god of power and domininion. According to Diane Stein,
a writer, the Hebrew god was a woman, traced as Iahu-Anat by Elizabeth
Gould Davis (who, by the way, was a librarian at Selby before she died.)
During patriarchal takeover, the Jewish Yahweh was also once the hunter
god-consort of Anat, known as Baal. Anyway, eventually you know the stor
y.
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/09/90 17:46:35
Message Number  4391

Would like to hear more about why you say to avoid IBM clones. Looks lik
like I need one anyway for work, but I need to stay informed. I won't
get rid of this CP/M, because my father wants to try it out.
By the way, I'm enjoying the dialog here even tho some days I just can't
get to the computer for play. Thanks.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: ack!           
Date & Time: 05/09/90 18:23:37
Message Number  4393

Ah ha!  You found the magic boner in PBBS!  Backslash characters signify
end-of-line to the message printing routine.  Yes, it /is/ kind of
annoying.  It apparently has something to do with the way Microsoft
FORTRAN compilers work (that being the language PBBS is written in.)
   Incidentally, that's why there were never any backslashes in the
intro screens here or on Wyvern's Den, even in places where you'd think
they'd make sense....
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/09/90 18:26:30
Message Number  4394

> You could run another BBS program under it with relative ease...
 
Kinda sorta.  Other systems would have their own separate userlog,
making people log on twice, wouldn't respect any of ERAC's own system
variables and probably wouldn't let people get back to ERACS /or/ exit
to ERACS when they logged off, since in a non-ERACS environment that
would mean plopping them onto the DOS prompt.  Also, most BBS's have
their own modem I/O drivers in them which could interfere with ERACS'
drivers.  You'd still need to do some hefty modification to make an
existing BBS run under ERACS, and without source code, it would make
all the PBBSH modifications to date seem trivial.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: rOAD rALLY.....
Date & Time: 05/09/90 19:06:00
Message Number  4396

>Insight into how to do the next one.....watch for it!!!!
Use letters instead of numbers.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Deal           
Date & Time: 05/09/90 19:16:15
Message Number  4397

ProTERM was done by Checkmate Technologies or some such company.
One of these days I'll put up my BBS.  After I get a serial card and
a modem, and Bart Fox helps me destroy GBBS.
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: :) the sequel  
Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:04:11
Message Number  4398

Dear Lady,
_____________________________________________________________________
[ the line you requested ]
   
I read your message on Courts of Chaos re: borrowing books.  Which
science fiction titles are you interested in borrowing?  We had only
discussed A Box Full of Hell, but I'll gladly loan you any titles I
have that you'd like to read.  Let me know.
                              The Yngling :)
P.S.  The case is going well...working my rear off (even had to miss
Snakebyte's Rally which I wasnt too pleased about...but going well.
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: please...      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:15:43
Message Number  4399

C.P.U.,
   Thanks.  I had these weird mental pictures of a Rambo-esque assault
on an adobe church (complete with bell) with amazing pyrotechnics.  I'm
glad to hear it was something much less violent and with good reason.
                                The Yngling
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: TURTLE              
Subject: uummm....      
Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:29:11
Message Number  4401

Maybe I won't be riding with you and Watts -- Rufus says he's goiing
to take me now....ANd it would be better, since I won't be so 
pressed for time on Friday...So, I guess I'm riding with him...
 
ACK!  I THINK!  hehehehhe  -- If anything changes, I'll scream
real loud and slam my head somewhere.....
 
I finally caught up with you at work!  I go there enough!  Youy look
abnormally normal when you're working!  :)  Hey, can you clean the
heads of my V-8 Camcorder?  I can't find anything to do it that
costs under a few bucks!  
 
c-'Ya l8r!
 
-TRR-
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: .              
Date & Time: 05/10/90 00:47:11
Message Number  4402

What do you mean "I look abnormally normal-looking?" Fox says I look
distressingly like a McDonald's person, which is distressing because,
well, I'm...a McDonald's person. Woo! Anyway, I wouldn't try to clean
the heads of the camcorder without one of those funky cleaning tapes,
because you have to take the goddamn thing apart and take the shell
off the head assembly to do it by hand, and I don't have a set of
jewelers' screwdrivers any more. *sigh* If you bring it over sometime,
I'll try (again) to fix the viewfinder, though...
   If you can get a ride w/Rufus, that will save Watts and I some
aggravation, since we're likely to be /real/ pressed for time on
Friday. Cia0, d00d...
             --A pressed Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/10/90 00:53:59
Message Number  4403

Pity the "religion causes wars" thing disappointed you--I was simply
using that to counter Chip's "but see all the good Christianity has
done!" I think it's a mistake to assume that religion per se does not
lead to all sorts of strife; /any/ self-replicating belief system is
going eventually to be responsible for a good deal of uncivility, Human
nature being what it is. Here's the problem:
#define Belief_System $foo;
Begin
  S1: People who do not believe in $foo will burn in hell;
  S2: It is your duty to prevent suffering;
  S3 ... Sn;
End
 
A correlary of S1 and S2 is that in order to prevent suffering, it is
your obligation to make people accept $foo, regardless of the cost
(after all, isn't it worth a little awkwardness now if you can prevent
everlasting torment?) Another correlary is that if someone refuses to
accept $foo, then it doesn't really matter what you do to him; after
all, he's damned anywat, right? (Both these lines of reasoning were
very popular during the middle ages, in fact.) Another problem arises
when two incompatible belief systems, $foo and $bar (Christianity and
Islam, say) have S1 and S2 in common but differ in statements 3 to
n...because each side will feel obligated to spread the Word, whatever
trhe cost, and both sides will soon start feeling very frustrated...and
angry...and...well, bad things happen. It's not really accurate to say
"Christianity causes problems when greedy people try to use it to get
[whatever];" exclusive belief systems can intrinsically cause conflict,
even if the statements contained in those belief systems instruct its
adherents to be nice to other people.
                    --A self-unreplicating Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DELPHI              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:02:55
Message Number  4404

I'd feel very uncomfortable trying to defend the premiss that the Hebrew
god was a variant on the Goddess, simply because the Hebrew religion is
a desert religion that arose almost completely in isolation and did not
start to incorporate the ideas of Wicca and other Celtic pagan beliefs
until /after/ it had started spreading throughout Europe, at about the
time of the death of Christ. The New Testament contains several ideas
that are clearly taken from the animistic pagan religions popular in
Europe during the first century or so AD, but going back farther than
that we see a more old-style war-god conception of the Hebrew diety
that's fairly typical of desert religions in general (as an interesting
side note, why is it that harsh climates invariably breed monotheistic
religions and more temperate climates breed polytheistic and animistic
belief systems?). Trying to forcibly interpret the Old Testament in
terms of goddess worship is at best naive (and looking back, I see I've
manages to split an infinitive in this sentence, too...*sigh*).
                    --An irreverant Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DELPHI              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:08:57
Message Number  4405

Well, in a nutshell, the reasons I don't like IBM clones are:
* They're generally poorly designed, and their bus architecture is
  a nightmare;
* They're slower than they have any right to be;
* They are built around mediocre IAPX86-family microprocessors;
* Their operating system, an obnoxious CP/M hack, was primitive by 1984
  standards and is still klunky, awkward, and underpowered even four
  versions later;
* IBM applications programs generally require obscene amounts of free
  memory to perform even the simplest of tasks;
* They are victims not only of poor design but in many ways of poor
  /conception/--lacking the features found even in modern 8-bit
  systems;
* They're overpriced (although peripherals for them are, thankfully,
  dirt-cheap);
* They are only minimally functional for any sort of sophisticated I/O;
* A great deal of IBM software, even commercial $500 software packages,
  is sooo klunky and awkward it's hard to imagine that anyone is even
  reluctantly willing to put up with it;
* The systems in both software and hardware are relatively inflexible,
  again even from modern 8-bit machine's standpoints;
* They are riddled with a staggering number of kludges, hacks, and
  misfeatures that nobody seems willing to rectify.
Other than that, I don't have any /real/ problems with IBM-type
machines; get rid of some of those problems and you'd be left with
a workable, if somewhat mediocre, computer. (If you'd like me to
elaborate on any or all of the above, I'd be more than happy to,
although it might end up getting me crucified...:) )
                --An obliging Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:20:29
Message Number  4406

That's why you write your own ERACS BBS system, dip. (ERACS is by far
the most powerful BBS package I've seen to date for micros--which
probably explains why it's only available for two operating systems,
TRSDOS and UNIX--but, Lordy, does its bulletin board ever suck eggs!)
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: DELPHI              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:16:47
Message Number  4407

Dear Delphi,
   Forgive me for calling Adonai "he." Unfortunately, there is no
pronoun in English for gender-neutral people (or hermaphroditic people.)
Adonai is, of course, beyond gender -- and it was inaccurate for me to
call the Divine One "He."
    Also, I agree with the feminist concept of continuums, not
dualities -- for some dualities. Simplistically, there are "goods"
which are "greater goods" than others, and there are "evils" that
are "lesser evils" than others. (I don't believe in breaking all
dualities into lesser and greater.) 
   However, I do not see how having a God (or Goddess) separate from
time and space is necessarily logically related to a patriarchal view
of the world. I will grant that in many cases, having one belief
correlates to having the other. But I don't see how it follows that
one implies the other.
   Covering more ground, again, I don't see how our limitations to
three dimensions or five (six? confusing.) senses necessarily means
that we will observe polarities. I believe it has more to do with
ancient lawmakers deciding what was "right" and what was "wrong" --
and this beig simplified over the ages. Laws have always supported a
limited form of continuums: one doesn't kill another for stealing a
nickel.
   Why do I believe that this is reality, and not the dream plane?
Continuousness. Although every time when I wake up here, it is always
the same, there is no continuousness to my dreams. What I remember are
disjoint views of entirely different, unconnected worlds. (Of course,
no assumptions can be made about "what is reality?" Reality is what it
is -- regardless of reason.)
   Is the Earth a living, breathing entity? Is the Earth alive?
for me, one of the definitions of life is that it attempts to change
its surroundings for its own, personal good. (Patriarchal? Probably.)
<Continued, next message.>
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: DELPHI              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:41:07
Message Number  4408

Plants attempt to draw nutrients from the soil, and some use poison
to discourage competition from other plants. Ants have fantastic
communication networks to build their hives. Conservationists try to
save the planet, that it might be livable in the future. However, I
have never observed a rock -- or a crystal -- attempting to better its
own surroundings.
   Is there power in crystals? I won't touch that one. Is Gaia of the
state where she doesn't need to better her surroundings? Nor will I
touch that -- but as a good mother, I would expect the Goddess to
reproach her human children rather severely.
   My roomate, who is a feminist, has the book Beyond God the Father --
as soon as I have the chance, I will read it. 
   You're a fascinating person, Delphi.
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: real Christians
Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:51:55
Message Number  4409

Dear Turtle,
   Either the God described by the Bible is 100% correct -- or it
is not. If it is not perfectly correct, then those claims are false.
I'll freely admit that it might be that the "actual" god (the Big
Fellah in the Sky) might be a bit off (he/she/it/they might have a
flowing red beard instead of a white one) -- but even the slightest
change would make those claims of exclusiveness WRONG.
   Yes, Jesus did speak about "different flocks" -- but, in context,
it seemed that he was talking about preaching to the non-Jews. (This
was a radical idea for the time...) Not that of creating many other
religions.
   Can there be a religion that is not recognizably Christian, but
would qualify under God's eyes? I don't know -- I'm not God. What I
do know is that, within a very few guidelines, there is an incredible
diversity of what could be called recognizably Christian.
                Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:00:23
Message Number  4410

    Whispers in the night,
           hidden sounds,
 "i love os/2... i love os/2... ibm is my friend... ibm is my friend...
  i love ms-dos... i love ms-dos... i want windows... i want windows..."
           hidden sounds,
    Whispers in the night,
                 while Turtles sleep.
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: No No !  Please
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:02:54
Message Number  4411

Incorrigible punster: do not incorrige.
               Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Real solutions 
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:05:21
Message Number  4412

Dear JonBoy,
   Are you assuming that "liberal" means "wrong"? 
   Also, are you saying that it has been "scientifically proven" that
the Earth was created in six days -- like Genesis 1 says? 
     
   Does the Bible contradict itself? Let's examine the first contra-
diction in the Bible: Genesis 1 and 2. In Genesis 1, man and woman were
both created on the sixth day, the last beings to be created.
(Gen. 1:24-27). In Genesis 2, it seems to say that man was created
before woman ("When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens -- and
no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of
the field had yet sprung up...the Lord God formed the man from the
dust of the ground and breated into his nostrils the breath of life")
BEFORE He created the plants.
                  Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:13:33
Message Number  4413

Dear Jonboy,
   Thanks. I'm enjoying the debate. Though I've rarely seen anyone
become converted due to any religious debates, it helps me learn how
others view the world.
              Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: YNGLING             
Subject: please...      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:17:11
Message Number  4414

Speaking about adobe churches...
   One of the most amazing things in San Miguel is the cathedral in
the center of town. A Mexican had seen a picture postcard of a Gothic
cathedral, and he thought it would be a Really Neat Idea to have one
in his town. Unschooled in architecture, he drew the plans for a
cathedral... and he knew enough rich people in town to have it
built.
   The first miracle was that it stood. The second is that it's
existed for so long. (It's now over 100 years old.) It's still exactly
as ugly as ever -- but it's in use.
      
    If I ever were to be Ramboesque about a church, it might be that
one. Antonio Gaudi would have been proud of it.
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:22:11
Message Number  4415

Dear Turtle,
   Aha! Douglas Hfstadter's meme has sunk into your brain. His
meme says something like this:
      1. You will use the idea of self-replicating sentences to
         explain religions and other ideas.
      2. To not do so is untruthful, and one must always be
         truthful.
      
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: ALL                 
Subject: THE BBS        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 13:07:31
Message Number  4417

Yes, we're BACK!  We used to be REMOTE CONTROL! but now we're better!
The ABRACADABRA BBS is /now/ ONLINE!  Please call -- This is a 
temporary setup, but it does have message bases -- We have a few
messages online already!  I am using the 2400 modem, but the BBS runs
only at 1200 baud -- All those who had problems connecting before, 
please try again -- ALl problems are now fixed...
 
CALL SNAKEBYTE, TURTLE, DONTHEN, CHIP, and BLACK MAGIC!!!!
 
813/378-2218
8-N-1-1200
 
-Ken Ober-
===========

From: SAURON              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Binkley        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:18:16
Message Number  4418

   Yes, Spanish Inquisition is close to the mark, but without even the
redeeming value of Castillian Nuns with batches of Sangria to revive
flagging interogatees and fan their brows with the breeze of flapping
oversize breasts confined by designer-pushup bras ...you get the idea.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:23:23
Message Number  4419

  These biblical quotes and moral messages on a general-purpose BBS
tend to become tiresome. 
  Evangelism has it's place, (I guess) somewhere, but not here.
  Turtle - if I'm out of line, saying that, just say so.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Hey..          
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:27:06
Message Number  4420

  Okay Corwyn, I (for one) will take you up on it, and call later 
tonight. 
   "A good BBS is a terrible thing to waste"
===========

From: SAURON              
To: ACAPULCO            
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:30:24
Message Number  4421

   AMEN...(so to speak)
===========

From: SAURON              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: game-theory    
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:32:04
Message Number  4422

-W.C. Fields on his deathbed, reading the Bible...
  
 "...just looking for loopholes..."
===========

From: SAURON              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: thermodynamics 
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:37:26
Message Number  4423

  Tigers in tanks?  far too recent to be of signifigance.
  Might as well say "Winston tastes good..."
  
  How about, "...Mommie puts it in my milk for extra energeeeee."
===========

From: SAURON              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:43:30
Message Number  4424

  Christians are uncomfortable about being blame for so many of the 
world's woes, but fact is-Europe has been the dominant area of the 
planet for 300 years now, and Europe has been predominantly Christian
in make up. Need any more data on why the world's screwed up?
===========

From: SAURON              
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: You Dweeb...   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:49:03
Message Number  4425

  What's with this "Dweeb" shit, you asshole. If I need advice from you,
I'll ask for it. 
  Keep your name-calling to a minimum, unless you want it returned to
you with interest.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:53:34
Message Number  4426

  I cannot get into another hardware battle because I have mixed
emotions. I sold my Commodore 128 recently (which is a GREAT machine in
many ways) and I am not terribly impressed with the 286 clone I put
together, but where was I supposed to go?  8-bit is doomed and all but
obsolete. Anyone who buys anything built by Apple is a candidate for 
really bad land-purchases...and the Amiga, while a great machine, (I
wanted an A-2000) is getting into the Apple realm of overpriced stuff.
(unless you buy the toy A-500 version, which Tyler did.)
   
  So I opted for a middle of the road 286 clone. It was my decision, and
I don't need abuse from 16-yr. olds about it.
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: ...            
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:22:31
Message Number  4427

Hi love.  Good news....my doctor called at school...I went into 
remission again!  Or at least I'm getting there!  My blood count is 
getting healthier....and I'm getting happier...
       Trace
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real solutions 
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:28:13
Message Number  4428

But why can't they die without human help??
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:30:25
Message Number  4429

God had to send Satan somewhere until his redemption plan could run it's
course. It is true that God allows evil, but that evil will be punished.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:39:24
Message Number  4430

It took a lot more than 'spoon-fed' religion(sp?) to make me feel the 
way I do. It took almost being put in jail to realize who I had been 
worshiping all these years. I found that you can either serve God or
Satan, one or the other, not both and not neither. A 'Non-Worship'
state of mind is a crock of sh*t. you are just letting Satan control
of your life.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:49:27
Message Number  4431

It's not our place to question, but to obey.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:52:58
Message Number  4432

There might be a connection.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:54:26
Message Number  4433

Why can't we try to do both? I'm only 15 and I'm already going to
heaven, so why can't I spend the rest of my life making the world 
better??
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:57:26
Message Number  4434

Then it will be too late.
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Xnty...        
Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:45:24
Message Number  4436

Don't create your own.. Go for Bokononism.. a ready made, perfect
religion. Vonnegut already did the dirty work for you.
 
                         - Corwyn
P.S. You could also raise fund to recover the "lost" "Books of Bokonon"
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Pizza=God      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:49:46
Message Number  4437

I would.. but the shallowness of my pocketbook, and the depth of my
card account have been forcing me to partake of the Morrison Swill.. if
only they'd serve a 2:00(am) snack! 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:55:59
Message Number  4438

I don't understand the command line philosophy.. simply have menus..
THAT YOU CAN INTERRUPT.. It's a little more difficult to write than 
opus or PCboard style command stacking, but it's worth it! You can do
very self explanetory menus, and simply let people go wherever they want
more quickly than Opus with /no/ menus. I think it's probably been a 
month or two since I saw all of one of Frank's menu's on The Cutting 
Board.. he kept the commands intuitive, and made the structure logical..
how hard is that? (Well, you say.. /your/ board isn't consistent.) My
board isn't consistent because I haven't gotten around to fixing that
yet.  Anyway.. I like Hotkey menus... AND completely programmable menus.
 
                        - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:01:47
Message Number  4439

Go for it.. just make copies of this for those "AAARRGGHHH.. it's eating
the userlist and saving the message base as the password list!" moments.
It's dark out and I'm not getting any more coherent.. scary.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Foo            
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:05:23
Message Number  4440

Geesh.. even in the middle ages, they'd only cut out your tongue for 
lying.. not kill you.
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:15:19
Message Number  4441

OS/2 - 20,000 copies sold.   Windows - 20,000 copies sold a month!
If you're gonna use one or the other.. which sounds better?
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: SAURON              
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:20:43
Message Number  4442

> It was my decision, and I don't need abuse from 16-yr. olds about it.
 
 Huh? What's this relevant to?
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:22:25
Message Number  4443

> I've found that you can serve God or Satan, one or the other, not both
> not neither.
 
 This is the biggest heap of shit I've heard in a while!  I DO NOT serve
God.. but where the hell do you get off saying I serve Satan? The whole
concept is ridiculous beyond belief.  How can you substantiate this 
claim? Or is this simply another spew of mindless dogma?
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:25:48
Message Number  4444

> It's not our place to question, but to obey.
 
Oooohhhh! Now /that's/ truly pitiful! You're obeying words written 2000
years ago.. how can they possibly understand your life better than you
can? Why bother having a life if you're not going to control it.. and
are simply doing what a book (or God direct, for that matter) tells you?
 
   "Jesus loves me, yes I know, because the bible tells me so." 
      Gag, puke, retch.. mindless conformism is disgusting.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:29:37
Message Number  4445

If you admit that Believing in the christian doctrine make your life
miserable, why do you continue such masochism?
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:30:52
Message Number  4446

> Then it will be too late.
 
 How do you know.. really this is getting silly.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Gee.....       
Date & Time: 05/10/90 22:18:34
Message Number  4447

I saw one (modem) cheap and working at the hackers garage sale, but they
(both) of them sold in the first hour, and as I did not need one I did
not buy one.  I will let you know if I locate an inexpensive one.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: THE BBS        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:03:58
Message Number  4449

> CALL SNAKEBYTE, TURTLE, DONTHEN, CHIP and BLACK MAGIC!!!!
 
I'm already calling Turtle.  I /am/ Donthen, and I don't have any of
the other three people's phone numbers.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: SAURON              
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:06:30
Message Number  4450

How about abuse from other sysops?  Zilog still sells more of their Z80
8-bit family chips (Z80A/B/H, Z84C00/01, Z180 and the Z8 dedicated
controllers) than all of Intel's chips put together, from their 8-bit
8088's to the 32-bit 386/486 beasts.  8-bit is only truly "obsolete" if
you're a power user... a Z180 or HD64180 (the Hitachi equivalent, and
the sucker the Wyvern's Den ran on) can run at 9 MHz and address 512K,
and has two 38400 bps serial ports, a two-stage timer and a two-channel
DMA controller on chip.  Even its 6 MHz version runs rings around most
286 systems when it comes to actually doing anything useful (as opposed
to benchmarks testing how fast the CPU can count backwards from 32768 by
4's).  It all depends on	 what you want to do; if not being compatible
with "industry standard software" doesn't bother you, then there's no
reason to go MS-DOS.
   I have come to peace with MS-DOS systems; for a lot of things, they'd
be cost-effective.  But on the whole, if I was going to get a 16-bit
(or 32-bit) system, I'd get an Amiga or--yes--a Macintosh IIcx first.
I'd want a computer that could do things my 8-bit system /can't/ do,
not just one that can do the same things a little faster or do it a
little slower with Brand Name Software.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:19:12
Message Number  4451

Actually, hotkey menus are considerably /less/ difficult to program than
a true command stack.  PBBS may not have them because the development
language Pat McDonald, the original author, chose was (inexplicably)
FORTRAN, and FORTRAN doesn't really deal with characters very well at
all.
    I like hotkeys, although they can be fairly dangerous beasts if
you're not careful in setting them up (like PBBS's goodbye without
confirm routine).
    As Turtle just reminded me, ERACS doesn't use command stacking per
se, it uses /commands/, i.e., the same way a DOS prompt does.  The
commands are, in fact, commands to its parser and are usually translated
to DOS commands or passed to LS-DOS directly.  When you log onto an
ERACS system, you're literally logging onto the remote computer, in the
same way you'd be logging onto a remote Unix system.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:14:47
Message Number  4452

>Is there power in crystals? I won't touch that one.
 
Chip, Chip, Chip. Of /course/ there is power in crystals; properly
cut, they are electrically resonant at very narrow frequencies,
and are therefore good for making precision oscillators. Of course,
if by "power" you mean "the ability to heal people and make everything
wonderful forever," well, if a 36.271828KHz sine wave can heal people
and make everything wonderful forever, sure. Just wearing a crystal
around your neck isn't gonna do it, though; it's kinda like a primitive
tribesman wearing a piece of a field containment generator around his
neck because such devices have power.
                --A crystalline Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:19:14
Message Number  4453

>i love ms-dos...i want windows...
 
A little Mac envy there, Chip?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:22:04
Message Number  4454

I see you've been infected with the "meme" meme too...although
I was describing Christianity as a self-replicating system, not a
self-replicating sentence, and I was doing so by means of an abstraction
rather than present the self-replicating structure /as/ Christianity.
But other than that, yeah...except perhaps that not to view Christianity
in that fashion is not necessarily untruthful.
                     --A non-replicant Turtle
Thpth!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAURON              
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:28:02
Message Number  4455

Of course, it could be worse...Europe could be both a predominant world
power /and/ Shi'ite Muslim...one of the nastier of the nasty desert
religions to come along in a while.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real Far Out   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:31:45
Message Number  4456

>But why can't they die without human help??
 
WHAT?????? Hey, dude, not to ask stupid questions, but what the /hell/
(pardon the pun) are you talking about??
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:33:13
Message Number  4457

>A 'Non-Worship' state of mind is just a crock of sh*t, you are just
>letting Satan control of your life.
 
You realize, of course, that that argument is totally invalid if the
person you're talking to doesn't buy into your cosmology to begin with.
How do you know that Islam isn't the true religion of God, and that
by being a Christian you are blindly following a false religion created
by Satan? For that matter, how do you know that your conception of God
and Satan are valid to begin with? (For your information, most modern
Christian theologians have pretty much dismissed the idea that such
an entity as Satan even exists...)
             --A Turtle who doesn't buy any of it
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real beanheads 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:36:32
Message Number  4458

>It's not our place to question, but to obey.
 
What a wonderful sheep you are. You know, I bet you're the sort of
person every Adolf Hitler wanna-be has wet dreams about. By the way, did
you know you just stated the central dogma of Islam? The word "Islam"
means "To Obey," and the word "Muslim" means "one who submits [to the
will of God]." Are you sure you've found the right religion? I think you
might be happier with something less...intellectual than Christianity.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:41:21
Message Number  4459

>I'm only 15 and I'm already going to heaven...
 
That should be a bumper sticker.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:42:38
Message Number  4460

>I don't understand the command line philosophy...
 
Welcome to LU-BBS.
BBS version 1.7, Command Processor version 2[A].3
@LOGIN FWVEAUX
 Password:
 
@SET PROMPT -->
-->INFORMATION BBS-NEWS
 
The latest system bulletin:
LU-BBS has undergone a new revision. The BBOARD area now
supports full TOPS-20 style command processing, including "?"
intercepts, and has added two new commands, QUICKSCAN and
TITLE_SEARCH, which are self-explanatory.
 
-->INFORMATION PRIVELEGES
Username: FWVEAUX
 Wheel
 Operator
 System_Maintenance
-->BBOARD
 
[Loading]
 
[B]-->READ NEW
 
THAT'S command-oriented BBSing. Any questions?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Sing along!    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:50:20
Message Number  4461

(Come on, you all know the words)
 
Jesus loves me, this I know
  For the babble tells me so...
 
I have at least a modicum of respect for people who form their own ideas
about religion and can support their religious views in a rational,
thoughtful manner. Sheep annoy me.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ALL                 
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:54:05
Message Number  4462

Well, here I am, back from another day of work, which in my case means
working a drive-through at a McDonalds and dealing with people who
can't figure out:
 
I.  Yes, you have to stop at the speaker to place an order.
    A. It's the little stand with the "STOP  Place Order Here" sign
    B. Yes, you have to stop NEXT to it.
    C. No, I won't know you're there if you miss by even a couple
       dozen yards.
II. No, we don't have hot dogs.
    A. McDonald's has /never/ sold hot dogs.
       1. No, we don't advertise them on TV, either.
    B. Wendy's has hot dogs.
       1. No, this isn't Wendy's.
          a. That's why the menu says "McDonsld's."
III. If you want an order of french fries, you need to specify what
     /size/ an order you'd like.
    A. We have three.
       1. They're "large," "medium," and "small."
       2. The cheapest ones are the "small." Then comes "meduim," then
          "large."
    B. Yes, that also goes for drinks.
IV. Yes, our Big Macs are on sale.
    A. That's why the center of the menu is dominated by the "Big Macs
       99 cents" sign.
       1. It's similar to the huge sign in the front of the store.
       2. Yes, they're on sale for 99 cents.
    B. No, our quarter pounders aren't also on sale.
       1. They're not Big Macs.
       2, No, they aren't "close enough."
V. Ordering a Happy Meal is more involved than saying "I wanna Happy
   Meal."
    A. We have three kinds.
       1. They're listed on the big picture on the menu board.
          a. Yes, we have all three kinds.
          b. No, they're not the same thing.
          c. No, I can't read your mind.
    B. They come with a drink.
       1. Yes, you get to pick which drink.
          a. Are you /sure/ you want coffee with that??
          b. Okay...
       2. Yes, the drink is included in the price.
          a. That's why the picture says "Purchase price includes drink"
          b. Oh look, it says the same thing on the box!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ALL                 
Subject: Con't          
Date & Time: 05/11/90 03:05:19
Message Number  4463

VII. No, we don't have Dr. Pepper.
     A. We have Coke, Diet, Sprite, and Orange.
        1. No, we also don't have 7-up.
        2. No, we /also/ don't have root beer.
        3. No, we don't have Mr. Pibb either.
           a. That's because we have Coke, Diet, Sprite, and Orange.
              i. Yes, that means no Pepsi.
              ii. You got it--no Mountain Dew, either.
           b. I don't care /what/ Burger King has!
     B. No, you can't "forget it and get a beer."
VIII. Now that you've placed your order, you need to drive up to the
      window to pay for it.
     A. Yes, that means you have to move.
        1. Foot off brake
        2. Foot on accelerator
           a. Not too hard, now...
           b. Mind that curve!
              i. Yes, you /do/ have to go around the curve.
     B. No, I won't walk out there and give you the order.
 
Honestly, the thought that these people, who are honestly and truly
incapable of placing an order at McDonald's, have the right to vote
in national elections terrifies me.
===========

From: DM2                 
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 05:22:26
Message Number  4464

LOL!!!!!  My dad used to be a postman, and he would *always* eat at 
McDonalds... he told me that EVERY day, during lunch, they would ask him
if he wanted a Pie... and he HATED pies... for five years, every day he 
would say "no" to the Pie question... 
.
.
Tell me, please... are McDonalds employees as sadistic as I'm told they
are?
.
.
               ---a curious DM
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 07:56:13
Message Number  4465

Like a RCP/M system.. I know the concept.. but for most things it 
doesn't seem particularly advantageous.. if you want let people do raw
directories.. have a menu option for it, I think the main drawback of 
current BBS systems is the message handling.. you should try Magpie..
Sota's new BBS, it seems to address some of the problems, of course they
managed to make file handling clunky as hell, but nothings perfect.
P.S. Magpie runs under Unix.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:00:33
Message Number  4466

> I love ms-dos...I want MS-Windows.. and I don't want my files to dis-
> appear randomly.
 
Definitely /not/ Mac-Envy, everybody know Mac users /want/ their 
Operationg System to lose half thier files.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:04:43
Message Number  4467

Sure.. but I still don't quite see the reason not to have interruptible
menus.. on my own system, it would annoy me, however when I'm callihg
another system long distance, it's always nice to have exactly what I 
can and can't do spelled out for me. Of course I don't want to /have/ to
wait for the menus.. that's why I like interruptable menus w/ hotkeys.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Sing along!    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:06:56
Message Number  4468

 I've always wanted to lead a "sheep shearing" movement. Then we'd 
/know/ that all the bald guys are mindless idiots.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:25:29
Message Number  4469

It depends on	 how it's set up.  I've seen some RCP/M systems set up
pretty nicely, especially remote Z-System type ones -- the file system
can be set up as a point-and-shoot menu where you tag the files you
want on-screen and download them all with YMODEM Batch or ZMODEM.
   The only drawback (assuming you've got it set up so people can't type
ERA *.*, which would be a serious drawback indeed) is that it won't
directly store a long description of the file in the directory; there's
usually a separate text file called FOR.TXT or something like that which
lists all of them, or you can type "FOR Q_264.ZIP" and get the system
to respond with an appropriate description like "It's QuickBBS 2.64,
bozo, what do you think?".  This really doesn't make things any more
difficult when it comes right down to it, but I suspect it would still
be beyond a dismaying number of users.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:29:56
Message Number  4470

The only problem with hotkeys is line noise, or pressing the wrong key
and having it go to the wrong menu.  Turtle will spew about this at
great length, although I think they're fairly trivial complaints....
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: The Bart Fox   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:44:27
Message Number  4471

Watts-
   Before you take off for Orlando, (if you get this message first),
could ya PUH-LEEZE pick up the stuffed fox?
                  Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: OASIS 3 FEN         
Subject: Not going...   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:45:54
Message Number  4472

For those who were expecting to take the Green Bitch to Orlando this
weekend... I'm not going. Too much work to take off for a sci-fi
convention. Have fun, all -- and yip at Juan Alfonzo for me.
              Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: THE BBS        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:47:40
Message Number  4473

Dear Ken,
   Tried calling early this morning. Your BBS simply typed +++ ATH
at me. Was it something I said?
                Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: SAURON              
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:49:58
Message Number  4474

Dear Mr. Sauron,
   Your remark was ENTIRELY out of place. Not only did it show extreme
lack of interest in the general conversation, it had nothing 
whatsoever to do with my message.
   First of all, there were no Biblical quotes in message #4272. The
only Biblical quote that I gave recently was to contradict the
"normal" stance of the Church against abortion: I found a verse which
supported the right to abortion.
   Secondly, most of my messages previous to that one have been
showing the faults of Christianity. This is directly OPPOSITE to
the idea of evangelism.
       
   There has been a lively discussion about religious topics in
general on this board, with everyone taking different viewpoints.
I see not a single reason why religion shouldn't be discussed on
an open BBS. If you don't like it, please skip over any messages
that have to do with religion.
   One question: what, precisely gives you the right to say which
topics should and should not be discussed on an "open" BBS?
                           The peeved Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: SAURON              
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:59:17
Message Number  4475

Yes. Of course. Saying there's a correlation between shoe size and
how well one does on a certain test might be completely true -- but
misleading. (The younger one is, the smaller the shoes... and usually
smaller shoes are only worn by much younger people.)
       
    You're trying to prove the statement: Christianity is responsible
for the world's woes. You say that Europe has been the dominant area
of the planet for 300 years, and Europe is predominantly Christian.
Okay -- now, two questions: Is Europe really "messing up" the world --
or was the world messed up to begin with -- and Europe only slightly
modified the chaos? Secondly, even if Europe is the sole cause of
the chaos in the world, must it be Europe's RELIGION that causes it
to screw up the world?
      
    You've got one hell of a lot left to prove.
                      Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:08:36
Message Number  4476

Dear C.C.A.,
>God had to send Satan somewhere until his redemption plan could run
>its course. It is true that God allows evil, but that evil will be
>punished.
       
    Bad, bad philosophy. Several questions for you to mull over:
      1. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did God create Satan
         in the first place? Adonai must have known how Satan would
         fall.
      2. If God is all-good, how could the Lord have created a being
         that could have fallen? (Please: don't resond simply with
         "free will." Couldn't God have created Satan with free will --
         but still have not fallen?)
      3. Why did God allow -- first Satan, then Humanity -- to fall? Why
         did God WANT to make the redemption plan? Why didn't God
         simply create Humanity so that it would not fall into sin?
      
   These questions have been mulled over since the Middle Ages...
                       Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Question       
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:16:43
Message Number  4477

>It is not our place to question, but to obey.
       
Oh, no... This is precisely what I've been fighting within the Christian
Church for the past three years. Do you realize the effects of that
philosophy?
      
   I'm speaking to you as a brother in Christ, here. I'm not attacking
you. The ONLY person you should obey is Christ, and Christ alone. I've
seen too many people who espouse that philosophy be completely taken.
(Re-read my message about Pastor Bill.) Too many people gladly take
your money, time, or efforts "in the name of God" -- and then abuse
your trust. I instinctively mistrust anyone who claims to be doing
something "in the will of God" -- and then immediately asks me for
something.
   God commands us to question every spirit to see if it's from God.
(Sauron, please abort this message, now. I might begin quoting from 
the Bible.) Throughout the Old Testament, people asked the messengers
from God for a sign to show they're from God. As good Christians, we
must constantly question our pastor's teaching to see if it's 
completely from the Word of God. Blind acceptance will not do.
   Complete obediance to God is wonderful. Be sure that it's not
someone else's ego trip that you're really following.
                  Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Xnty...        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:27:06
Message Number  4478

Hmmm... haven't read that Vonnegut book. Which one is it?
      
  Personally, I'd prefer to base one around Mike's from Stranger in
a Strange Land. Not much in the way of a message, as I can't make
things not with my mind, but the sexual part would be wonderful/
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Intel IAPX86   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:29:59
Message Number  4479

Os/2 or Windows -- which would I use? Os/2, of course. It's a lot
less useful, but at least it takes up much more memory.
                  Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:34:03
Message Number  4480

Dear Corwyn,
   I have no personal problems with the idea of a person following God.
If there's a God, and if God is interested in being followed -- God
might choose to have created some people especially to follow him/her/
it/them. 
   My problem is with people who follow people who claim to be following
God. If she/they/it/he want followers, then it/he/they/she should ask
them directly.
                 Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:39:36
Message Number  4481

Dear Turtle,
   What if I said that there have been studies that show that people
wearing crystals tend to become sick less than people who don't?
(Actually, there probably are such studies -- but I'm making this up
off the top of my head. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.)
   Of course there's no "power" within crystals that would automatically
bestow health, clear thinking, or increased sexual potency to a person.
But, psychosomatic effects are REALLY strong -- and they make finding
medicines difficult. If wearing a crystal around one's neck makes a
person feel healthier, or feel like one has a clearer mind -- then the
effect is probably real. But it's due to the belief -- and that's the
true power of the crystal.
                  Chip P. Unicorn
   
P.S. I use such things myself. When I have an upset stomach, I generally
make chammomile tea. There's a Mexican superstition that that kind of
tea is really wonderful for stomach problems. I tried it, had enough
faith that it would work -- and, bingo! It worked.
===========

From: CHIP P. UNICORN     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:49:37
Message Number  4482

>THAT'S command-oriented BBSing. Any questions?
     
   Yes. How do we learn the commands in the first place? Other than
that, it seems a sensible option.
               Chip P. Unicorn
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: SAURON              
Subject: You Dweeb...   
Date & Time: 05/11/90 14:15:06
Message Number  4483

Dweeb.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DM2                 
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:31:38
Message Number  4484

Well, if you place an order and say "and that's all," you won't be
asked if you want a pie...although, to be fair to McDonald's, you
probably wouldn't believe how much money suggestive selling generates.
About one in three or four people will say "Yeah, go ahead and add a
pie/fries/whatever" when you ask...
 
McDonald's people aren't all that sadistic...really. Unless we're having
a bad day.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:35:28
Message Number  4485

>...for most things it [an RCP/M] doesn't seem particularly advantageous
 
If you're just running a bulletin board system, it's not. RCP/M's are
generally not just BBS systems, though; Z-nodes, for example, let you
experiment with new Z software before you download it, run utilities
for library and file handling, and all sorts of neat non-BBS functions
like that. (There are, in fact, RAS systems floating around with no
BBS running at all, or with only very limited message capabilities.)
                       --A remote access Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:41:29
Message Number  4486

>Turtle will spew about this at great length...
 
No, Turtle will simply say "Menus are bad." There are places where
menus are appropriate--in bad IBM word processors, say--but for serious
applications, menus are evil.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:48:01
Message Number  4487

>How do we learn the commands in the first place?
 
In LU-BBS, type a question mark. It is immediately intercepted (you
don't press Return), and presents you with a list of commands
(or parameters if you've already typed a command). If you have
typed part of a commmand, it will give a list of all the commands
that match what you've typed so far, as in:
 
@L? Command, one of the following:
   Login       Logout     Length     List
@LOG? Command, one of the following:
   Login       Logout
@LOGIN ? Username
@LOGIN _
 
or, alternately,
 
@I? Command, one of the following:
   Information
@I ? One of the following:
   Priveleges   System_News   System_Statistics   Userlog
@I Priv
 Username: FWVEAUX
  Wheel
  Operator
  System_Maintenance
@
 
Is easy, n'est pas?
===========

From: DM2                 
To: TURTLE              
Subject: hehe           
Date & Time: 05/11/90 16:05:19
Message Number  4488

Not sadistic, eh?  Coulda fooled me... ;)
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:45:32
Message Number  4489

Trying to interpret the Old Testament into goddess worship isn't my
point, because I believe it was the written enforcement of patriarchy.
But goddess worship far predates all other religion. To quote Diane 
Stein in "The Women's Spirituality Book", "...evidence of anthropologist
and archeologists indicates that pre-god (goddess) civilizations were
both matriarchal and peaceful, and structured far different from today's
world. No evidence of human strife or violence has been found in any of
the ancient cities of the Near East until late in the third millenium,
when patriarchal nomads first invaded. Not restricted to the Near East,
the so-called "cradle of civilization," the Golden Age triad of goddess
worship, matriarchy and peace extended to Egypt, the Greco-Roman world,
Crete, Persia, Britain and Ireland, and to Africa.
It isn't that the war-god of the Hebrew tribes was female, but that he
originated in Baal, the hunter god-consort of the first Hebrew god,
Iahu-Anat or Ashtoreth. She was the great mother, who gained a male
consort that grew and overtook her as patriarchy took root.
Perhaps your desert theory comes not from the location but the lifestyle
of the people, since goddess times were gatherers and agricultural and
tribal. I can't remember the rest of what you said and it doesn't show
on my screen any longer.
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:54:37
Message Number  4490

So, what you're saying is that they could be much better computers and
cost too much? How horrible is the software? I hate that business needs
dictate stuff like this, but maybe it's like speaking an ancient
language. You have to be understood -- speak the language. And in my
case it seems like people in my field are using IBMs and I have to be
able to plug in some way. Right now I sure can't switch disks.
Anyway, thanks for the infor.
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:59:32
Message Number  4491

Wow. This stuff is getting so long I can't read fast enough to remember
what we're saying sometimes. Anyway, here goes an attempt at an answer.
I wouldn't agree that (what did you say? life? means attempting to
better one's surroundings. Gaia would accept life as an active process,
I suppose, embracing things as they are as well as change. Who's to say
if a rock's surroundings are better because it doesn't attempt to change
them than if it would? Who's to say anything's wrong for a rock? For me,
I do see the need for some change but would feel myself becoming too
(are you ready for this one?) codependent if I tried to change things
to make them better for someone else. Now this is hard to resist, becaus
even feminists think we know what's good for you. I would say change is
necessary in a social system where we strive for equality, for the 
worth and dignity of every person. That sure isn't the case today.
But other things -- things that don't seriously impact others -- must
be given to the basic right of each individual.
This stuff isn't well thought through, as you can tell. I will be
anxious to hear your opinion of active Be-Ing as defined by Mary
Daly. Maybe I'll be more clear then, because I'm enjoying our
dialog too.
===========

From: ACAPULCO            
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real solutions 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 19:49:48
Message Number  4492

That's easily explained. In the days of the writing of Genesis, no one
would dream of thinking plants were beings. Quite a few folk still
don't, so where is the contradiction?
 
{Acapulco}
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: New Subject    
Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:09:37
Message Number  4493

I assume you could also simply cat the file, seeing all available files
(in that area) and the descriptions.. so it ends up almost exacly the 
same as a bbs listing. You could also run the archive program directly
to see what's in the archive.. (to double check the version ect.) 
I've considered writing a Filedoor clone that would allow you to type in
a filespec, and it would give you a list you could narrow it down from,
point-and-shoot will only work for ANSI, and even then it would probably
be a little slow. A nice feature would be to allow a user to maintain a
list of files he want to download as he scrolls through the directory, 
and keep adding to it, waiting to download until he's seen everything.
 Have a hotkey (like Ctrl-A or something) that would pop up you current
list to add or subtract from. I still might implement it in a door, but
the MS-DOS BBS scene is so chaotic now, I'll probably just wait and see
if anybody does anything like it internally.
BTW in case you don't know, but /do/ care: QuickBBS is dying.  USTI 
has bought the code (yes quick was sold yet again) and they're going
to go commercial with a package that has such things as Internal Call
Back Verification.. Whoopeee I bet I'll be reading about bugs in that 
system for the next year.. maybe they'll kill that idea (please?)
However, in addition to Remote Access, about 3 other people are writing
quickbbs clones, so we'll se what happens.
 
                         - Corwyn

===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: Nusubject (tm) 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:21:24
Message Number  4494

Line noise problems are going down, and having a goodbye confirm will
usually avoid anything disastrous. Even with quick, ifhe line noise
is abominable enough, you /can/ turn hotkeys off.. but I don't think I
even implemented the option on my board.. If the line noise is that bad
you should be bitching at the phone company.. not wasting your money on
my board.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Xnty...        
Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:28:37
Message Number  4495

Cat's cradle.. it's a more honest religion than Mike's.  It's first
assertion is: Religion is all lies! Don't believe any of it.
Boko.. boko.. bokooo. NON!
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:31:04
Message Number  4496

Frankly I think if God manifested himself and told me to follow him, I'd
simple tell him to go play with himself. Just because somebody created
you doesn't give them the right to completely control your life. My
parents created me, but they don't own me.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 22:39:25
Message Number  4497

> Why do you...[assume] that everybody worships "SOMETHING?"
 
  I'm a case that you can use to prove your point. I don't neccesarily
feel that worship of anything is stupid or wrong, I can get along with-
out worshipping something.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: rOAD rALLY.....
Date & Time: 05/11/90 22:48:26
Message Number  4498

> the next one.....
 
  In Bradenton you said? It had better be! I can't wait. Tyler is going
to regret all he complained about my not knowing where to go in Sarasota
!!!! I know Bradenton!
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:11:49
Message Number  4499

 Just curious...
   Is it some kind of odd nature of yours to be more of a religious 
fanatic (yoiu haven't spoke of much else since getting on here) in
writing than in person??
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:13:35
Message Number  4500

> you are just letting Satan control of your life.
 
 WOAH! Hey, I am in a "Non-Worship" state of mind and I believe /I/ am
controlling my life. I don't feel a compelling urge to do bad. As a 
matter of fact, I have an extreme "good" complex. If I do bad, I feel 
guilty enough that I could die...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Real beanheads 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:23:47
Message Number  4501

 >...you [C.C.A.] just stated the central dogma of Islam[.]
 
  Oh, great. Now we should find out if he's a Sunni or a Shi'ite.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:27:37
Message Number  4502

 I almost had a heart attack reading that.
 
 Oh, by the way, did you know you violated one of the basic rules of 
outlining?? Yes, that one that says "Any heading with a subheading 
should have two subheadings." In other words for every "a" there should
be a "b".
 
  PS the heart attack was from laughing, not anything you might have 
otherwise been thinking.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Con't          
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:30:59
Message Number  4503

  More good stuff!
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:41:03
Message Number  4504

  Ken Ober said that he pulled up and saw you at the McDonalds. At first
he didn't recognize your voice over the speaker. I don't know how that 
could happen, anyway, it sounded like an interesting experience. I think
it would make a great trip for some of us someday... right up to the 
take-out window to see a Turtle at work.
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: ALL                 
Subject: Board          
Date & Time: 05/12/90 00:58:05
Message Number  4505

    I don't know how it happened, somtehing is not right in aLTER
rEALITY.  Turtle is out of town till Sunday.  So their is nothing I can
do about the messages.  I will do what I can to keep the board up and
running.  Your junior sysop want to be.
                             * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: JACK BURTON         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: A LONG LINE    
Date & Time: 05/12/90 01:36:00
Message Number  4506

 If you don't have a VGA you can always read The Blind Watchmaker by
Richard Dawkins but one has to wonder if you'll be able to check it out
of any public library.
===========

From: JACK BURTON         
To: YNGLING             
Subject: History        
Date & Time: 05/12/90 01:39:06
Message Number  4507

 I was under the impression it was more of a miletary action, hopeing 
to cause wide-spread disruption in the South.
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: ALL                 
Subject: last visitor   
Date & Time: 05/12/90 08:04:01
Message Number  4508

Last Visitor => s attempting to
 
 Hmm wonder what was going on here?
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:01:49
Message Number  4509

Aren't you going to be suprised when you go to hell with him who you
serve.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:05:22
Message Number  4510

I'm NOT miserable, but I do see the problems around me.
===========

From: C.C.A.              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Real Far Out   
Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:08:16
Message Number  4511

Apparently, you did not read the message I was responding to. Try again 
after you've read it.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:16:50
Message Number  4512

  Mohammadism (they hate it when you call it that) is even worse than
Christianity, in that they OPENLY advocate wiping out non-beleivers.
  
  ...But hey - after all, they're only sand-niggers.
  Donthen went crazy when I used that term on his Board...what about you
Turtle?
   { Andrew Dice Clay-my newest hero}
===========

From: SAURON              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:21:27
Message Number  4513

   (Shudder) It's "Hamburger Hell". 
===========

From: SAURON              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:23:54
Message Number  4514

   If you get off practising evangeslism, which is exactly what you're
doing...albeit surreptisiously. that's your concern. As an agnostic, 
I'll object my ass off. Okay?
===========

From: SAURON              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:27:08
Message Number  4515

  To answer your question without doing seventeen paragraphs; How many
sins have the Polynesians commited?
===========

From: SAURON              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: 286: Stone Age 
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:32:56
Message Number  4516

   Whatever you say, Watts. "Come to peace"?  Doesn't sound like it.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: You Dweeb...   
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:37:20
Message Number  4517

  I'm gonna let that pass, because I probably over-reacted to your
last message. 
  Sometimes I see challenges when there are none there.
  
  Say it once more though, and there'll be no mistake.
===========

From: SAURON              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: menus          
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:41:17
Message Number  4518

  So what do you do when you're on the other end, ordering a meal?
Say to the peon - "Repeat your entire bill of fare to me orally."?
  
  (Is this a non-sequitur?)
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: DELPHI              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:56:09
Message Number  4519

Sorry - some "research is bound to be in error.  The Hebrews relation-
ship with Yahweh goes back to a time which is concurrent with Baal 
worship - I have heard the old argument about how the Jews gained their
"theory" of monotheism from the Eygyptians and reject it on historical
basis.  Many of the kings et al mentioned in the early Hebrew texts
have been verified by many many discoveries in ancient Babylon, Sumeria
and point to the early accounts as fact.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: ack!           
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:02:10
Message Number  4520

Well that explains why my Bill cat ascii signout got all screwed up.
Not only ack!  but phhht! too!!!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Deal           
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:04:00
Message Number  4521

Checkmate made some really neat video stuff for the Apple's.  By the way
I was clearing out some of my stuff and came up with a box full of
old NIBBLE, MICRO etc magazines plus some books on graphics etc for the 
Apple.  I really hate to get rid of 'em but --- first come first served.
Anyone interested leave mail and I will figure who to get to first.
Turtle - I dug out the s-100 boards, an SBC-880 mothrboard, a 256k ram 
board, an s-100 motherboard and a clock calendar.  Anyone interested 
real cheap!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:09:31
Message Number  4522

Well - in the middle ages and inquisition and all those other interestin
"christian" times you have to understand that the entire concept of 
christianity and the church was contained in a power mad structure
known to the world as the "holy catholic church".  Some mighty fine 
reading is to be had on the power struggles and political wars within
that establishment, I would just like to point out that they (the PEOPLE
in charge tried to monoploize this structure by making it illegal under
punishment of death to have or read a Bible.  This is because if 
the common man knew the truth the system could never stand.  Witness the
reforms and new stance of the "new" catholic church since MArtin Luther
and the other martyrs dragged the truth out of the papacy and into the
light.
   To my mind it is a testement to the Word of God that people can still
find meaning and belief even though it has been perverted, twisted and
bent for the benefit of a few.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:18:44
Message Number  4523

Actually the concept of polytheistic and monotheistic is a bad topic.
In most "polytheistic" religions there is still a head mutha whats in
charge (Zeus, Odin, Yahweh) and in our own "mono"theistic religion we 
teach of a triune godhead and an abundance of supernatural creatures
(cherubim, seraphim, angels).  I am unaware of any desert religions
other than Judaism and Islam (which are the SAME God and derive from 
the same roots so I will count as one) that teach montheism.  I have a
nagging thought about Australia but --- clue me in.
   It is indeed a strain to incorporate almost anything of paganism
into Judaism.  I will not count the fact that many Christian and Jewish
festivals etc fall on traditional pagan holidays - that was simply good
PR and people management for the early Christians that brought their
religion to Europe and the British Isles.
 
                         A non-simplistic JonBoy
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:27:57
Message Number  4524

I work with 'em alot and agree.  I have incredible problems doing the
simplest I/O and it is a nightmare designing an interface card because
of the mentioned hacks, cracks and bad decisions that are inherent to 
the PC family of computers.  My biggest question is:
What in the /hell/ is it doing /after/ it has identified the machine
configuration that takes it so long before it can boot the OS.  And 
don't tell me "memory management".  I must admit though - there is a 
lot of software - and some of it good for the computers.  The user
interface on most of the new stuff is light years better than the old
stuff (like Lotus menues - yeccchhhhh!).  The best user interfaces are
on the graphics stuff. 
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:35:16
Message Number  4525

One could propose that merely "being" a rock or crystal enables it to
"participate" in the ecosphere and thus "lives".  However this type
of argument is platonic and deals with his "forms" and my head hurts!
I will bow out after loading Delphi's gun....
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Real solutions 
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:39:53
Message Number  4526

 I /said/ my head hurtz! <whimper> Ok ok - lemmee think I know that I
have covered this one in the past  ....... oh yeah!  Now it also mentons
the sons of god.  And when Cain was driven away he took wives.  Now
where did they come from?  I have heard arguments (but alas, have NOT
followed them up) that MAN was created as stated. ADAM was the special
case (a proto-Hebrew?) and it all fits (maybe - fingers crossed).
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:43:41
Message Number  4527

Oh nonononononononononononononononononononononononnonononon NO!
Only the power of the Holy Spirit can convict or convert.  	T'is merely
our job to BE Christians and be vessels of the Holy Spirit.
I got into a really weird conversation with a non-believer and a bottle
of Tequila or something got involved.  He was trying to explain how
strange some of the Christian terminology sounds.  He likened something
like I just said to the scene in "Wrath of Kahn" where the bug was
put in Chekov's ear.  It was probably the funniest conversation I ever
had as the person was not vicious - he simply put it forth as he 
perceived it.  
   I get a real hoot out of the "soul saver" brigades.  They are going
out and "win souls for Christ".  I love them for their zealousness
but they /are/ mistaken if they think they can "save" anyone.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:51:19
Message Number  4528

Most variations of that stuff involves a small sneaky nonsequitur
hiding in the cracks.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: ALL                 
Subject: protocensorship
Date & Time: 05/12/90 21:25:20
Message Number  4529

  If anyone is quite interested, someone over at NBC made a quite odd
decision to let Andrew Dice Clay host "Saturday Night Live". It beats me
why they think he can last 1 1/2 hours on network TV. He couldn' even 
last 1 1/2 minutes on MTV... so, this will be quite an odd thing to see.
  Anyway, the title of my message refers to my prediciment. My parents 
seem to think I shouldn't watch. I don't agree. That's censorship.
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/13/90 04:53:06
Message Number  4530

Nope.. have you been having bad dreams lately.. sounds like a horror
movie, not real life. Wake up dude, you're living in a fantasy land. 
I don't serve anybody, I don't believe in hell any more than Peter Pan, 
do you believe in Peter Pan, you seem pretty gullible about everything
religous. Just watch out for Captain Hook, he'll get you if you 
believe in tinkerbell.
 
Call me back when you start using your brain.. not spouting dogma.
 
 
                        - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:00:14
Message Number  4531

I see problems.. I think a lot of bad things happen in this world, 
but I'd never say "This miserable world we live in" as you did. I have
faith in myself, and believe that I can always make my life better than
death, I'm not in a hurry to get out of here. Sure, we're on a planet in
the middle of nowhere, but have you seen an intergalactic taxi lately, 
make the best of it.. stretch your mind bud, think!
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: SAURON              
Subject: What I'm doing.
Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:05:36
Message Number  4532

We're not practicing evangelism.. I happen to be mostly agnostic, partly
athiest, we're talking about religion, not encouraging people to 
practice it.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: CORWYN OF AMBER     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:14:25
Message Number  4533

Boot times depend upon the machine, The ultralight will boot from it's
RAM disk in about two seconds apparently. My Northgate does a page full
of diagnostics (never had them report anything usefull) and then starts
doing drive checks, In my case, most of my boot time is my drive 
controller checking drives.
 
                         - Corwyn
===========

From: DELPHI              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: godtalk        
Date & Time: 05/13/90 12:57:15
Message Number  4534

The fact Baal worship -- which followed goddess the original goddess
worship, before he was a god or her consort or even existed -- existed
concurrently with the development of Hebrew religion does not negate
anything I've said. The scholars I read point out that Judiasm was
perhaps the first attempt to destory the peaceful "milk and honey"
existence of the matriarchy that took the form of a new religion. The
purpose of this religion, this power-over rather that power-from-
within, was for males to take dominance in the world, the birth of
patriarchal power structure. It was only by co-opting the goddess
worshiping religions, those that honored each individual and each
living (or inanimate) part of the universe, that they could get
people to give up their ties to goddess worship.
This is not to say Judiaism was the only attempt. It was the most
successful, leading also to Christianity and the worship of a man
as god, which again was acceptable only when Mary was incorporated
as a goddess-style figure.
I realize these premises aren't easily accepted if you've always heard
something else, but there are tremendous discoveries being made in
these areas. When patriarchy wants to hold back information or
alter the truth, it does a forceful job. Only when we refuse to
accept patriarchal concepts as truth or the only reality do we open
our eyes enough to see myriads of possibilities.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DM2                 
Subject: hehehe         
Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:35:24
Message Number  4535

What, me sadistic? Naah...I'm an angel! O:) Honest...would an angel
try to kid you?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DELPHI              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:46:25
Message Number  4536

If your primary concern is the ability to exchange information with
IBM machines, you'd be better off buying a null modem cable (about
ten dollars) and using your terminal program to zap stuff across at
19,200 baud. It would probably be difficult to justify spending a 
fairly large amount of money for a not-terribly-good computer if
all you're looking for is the capability to get files onto IBM disks,
especially if the hardware and software you already have is perfectly
servicable.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: New new subject
Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:50:57
Message Number  4537

Your comment about point-and-shoot file transfers/listings/whatever
from a BBS ("...you can only do it if you have ANSI") isn't really
true. RAS Z-nodes are capable of doing point-and-shoot operations
on any terminal or computer that isn't a glass TTY by using remote
TCAPS that are essentially nothing more than descriptors of the
necessary control sequences to move the cursor, clear the screen, or
whatever on the target terminal. When you log into the RAS, you run
a program called TCSELECT that lists all the various terminals it knows
and lets you pick one; if you don't see one you like, you use another
program to tell the host computer what sorts of codes you want sent.
It wouldn't be all that difficult to implement a similar scheme in
the IBM world, by installing the termcap with a DEVICE specification
if you want to set up your BBS as an RCP/M. If you don't need the
ability to shell to DOS from the remote end and don't mind staying
within the BBS program itself, implementation would become trivial.
                       --An RAS Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Something else 
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:00:06
Message Number  4538

>...did you know you violated one of the basic rules of outlining??
 
Yes.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CORWYN OF AMBER     
Subject: last visitor   
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:03:31
Message Number  4539

Last Visitor => s attempting to 
 
Yes, folks, there is a problem here. The problem is a few spurious
embedded codes in one of Delphi's message that cause the cursor here
at this end to go zipping up to the top of the screen (yes, everything
you people see on your ends, I also see here) and continue printing
whatever it was printing when it hit the spurious watchamacallits.
Anyway, well, the top of the screen is in more normal circumstances
reserved for the status line, and the board keeps all sorts of neet
information there, and, well, I'm sure you can piece the rest
together...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Waaaay far out 
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:07:25
Message Number  4540

Sorry, guy, but I read all the messages in this thread, and
your incoherent statements are still incoherent. I don't see your
connection between people killing children and people believing they
will live forever; perhaps it's just me. Can you try explaining it
again, please? Humor me, I'm slow sometimes.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAURON              
Subject: They hate...   
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:10:14
Message Number  4541

Interesting thing about Islam...the Koran specifically (and in no
uncertain terms) states that (1) "people of the Book" (ie, Jews and
Christians) have their own path to god and are not to be molested; and
(2) conversion by force is wrong. Most good Muslims, of course, realize
that these particular passages must have been written in error and seem
more than eager to rectify the mix-up.
 
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAURON              
Subject: menus          
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:13:31
Message Number  4542

>So what do you do when you're on the other end, ordering a meal?
 
I generally harrass the individual taking my order as much as is humanly
possible. In fact, I think I can say that I have raised the practice
of harrassing fast-food employees to a high art. For people with a
sense of humor, this is not a problem; in fact, for some of 'em I'd
suspect it's the high point of their day. For those without one: Well,
anyone without a sense of humor deserves no better.
 
>(Was that a non-sequitur?)
 
Well, now that you mention it... (grin)
                   --A harrasshole Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Deal           
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:18:52
Message Number  4543

Actually, I'd probably be interested in all the S-100 hardware--what
are you asking for the lot? Also, what (if anything) does it have in the
way of technical specs, software, or other neat stuff like that?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Mania          
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:21:05
Message Number  4544

I dunno...people still find meaning and belief in Dianetics, and it
/started out/ perverted, twisted, and bent for the benefit of a few...
              --A skeptical (and perverted, twisted, and bent) Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: More godtalk   
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:26:43
Message Number  4545

In my present state of mind (exhausted and suffering from convention
burnout) it's likely to be difficult to discuss monotheistic
and polytheistic traditions coherently, so I won't. Perhaps
after I've slept for a few days...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: IBMs           
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:30:06
Message Number  4546

For some obscure reason that's totally transparant to me, a
number of PC-family computers seem to feel it's necessary to do
an exhaustive memory test (walking bit left, walking bit right, 
bit interleave, etc, etc, etc, etc) every time they're turned on.
Mind you, it isn't any more reliable than a simple write-read-
invert-write-read test, but at least it (a) makes the boot ROMS
longer; (b) takes forever; (c) effectively tests every memory
address about a dozen or so times; and (d) is inherently silly
since most RAM errors are thermal-intermittant and aren't going to
show up when you first turn the *expletive* thing on. IBM: When we
kill something, it *stays* dead (tm).
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: protocensorship
Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:37:02
Message Number  4547

Censorship is the act of preventing someone from /saying/ something,
not the act of preventing a person from /hearing/ it. If the network
weren't carrying the show, then it would be censorship. Mind you, I
don't subscribe to the philosophy that says parents have the right to
control absolutely and arbitrarily everything thier children are exposed
to, but it's important to get terminology straight.
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: CHIP P. UNICORN     
Subject: hhmmm...       
Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:32:09
Message Number  4548

You possible yonnedted right after someone hung up and you caught the
tail-end of the reset sequence....
 
-Ken Ober-
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Gimme that.... 
Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:54:10
Message Number  4549

C.C.A.-
To be honest, I find the fact that someone who recquires a crutch as
enormous as yours to make it through the day and to justify his actions
calling MY life a "crock of shit" to be absurd at best.
                                    The Yngling
P.S.  Ive been in a few jails and none of them were bad enough to make
      me worship the only forgotten Son.  Maybe you should have chosen
      jail.....
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: C.C.A.              
Subject: Real dips      
Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:59:53
Message Number  4550

So on the 6th day ghod created mindless beings which were mentally
without form or void?  Jeez, whatever happenned to the Christian
concept of free will....I have two choices - abject slavery or eternal
damnation?  Hmmmm...what to choose? What to choose?
                                    The Yngling
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Arrghhh        
Date & Time: 05/13/90 22:09:20
Message Number  4551

Turtle,
   I never thought Id say this, but, this latest message chain with
Mr/Miss C.C.A. re: religion has made me long for those wonderful
discussions about abortion we were having a while back.
   Can anyone, other than Chip, discuss the pro-Christianity side
without falling back on the pablum-dogma crap they were spoon-fed as
children in Sunday school?  
                     The Yngling (who has apparently been serving
                     Satan for many moons without being aware of it -
                     damn, I hate it when that happens!)
===========

