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23 
24 ---------------------------------------------------------------
25 As far as I can tell from what reading I've done regarding ethics
26 etc. the proper verdict as to whether ethics are relative or
27 absolute is the infamous Scottish court verdict- "not proven".
28 Therefore, I suggest that we devote some time (OFF-LINE!) to
29 finding a way to prove or disprove our viewpoints, instead of
30 wasting time (and Mike's disk space) arguing with no useful
31 results.
32 If anyone is interested, I will dig up some tenative (VERY!)
33 proposals for a "universally applicable" set of ethical principles.
34 I might add that most people (and ALL governments as far as I know)
35 are currently using what is known as the "Neolithic Ethic".
36 1. You stay in your village and we will stay in ours.
37 2. If your cattle graze on our lands we will kill you.
38 3. If we want your fields or village we will kill you and
39    take them.
40 4. Anyone who tries to change our ways is a witch and we will
41    kill them.
42 (I'm 'qouting' the above from memory so I think there are a few
43 gaps and errors)
44 It sure sounds familar doesn't it? If you want to do some research
45 on the "universal" ethics I mentioned, try checking article indexes
46 under "Metalaw".
47 
48 To Moon U. & Val Gal
49 Sorry about using up more space on a discussion that you aren't
50 into. Don't let them bug you. You got just as much of a "right"
51 (whatever THAT means) to dislike the discussion as we have to 
52 have it! Like, you know what I mean, like its cool, ok?
53 __________________________F - I W______________________________
54 =================================================================
55 To SPAM (I think):  When someone probes into your half-baked ideas
56 and hits a nerve, I can see why you would want to load the dice and
57 guarantee that a certain view of ethics is denied in advance by the
58 rules.
59    #1  I understand your statements, probably better than you do.
60    #2  Good and Bad and other such terms may be "ambiguous" for you
61        but if you purport to engage in a discussion pursuing truth,
62        then these are terms that should not be excluded from ethics.
63    #3  I started my involvement in this discussion with precise
64        definitions and references to whole families of liturature
65        where they could be investigated by readers further.
66 I've used the Encyclopedia of Philosophy for years.  I bet my library
67 of philosophy (and hours logged in its pages) is larger than yours,
68 I bet they weigh more than yours, my daddy can beat up your daddy, etc.
69    And as to my energetic lunge for your throat.  If people smear the
70 walls of ethics with their own excrement, then they should at least
71 have their nose rubbed in it.
72    But enough...1200 lines is not the place to "fully qualify ones
73 ethical definitions".  I sign off and will go back to using this
74 system for <= 20 line messages.  
75    In fact, maybe Mike should put a recommendation to that effectat
76 the start of each side.  By the way, Mike, if you're reading this
77 why does your software on this system put linefeeds before CRs at the
78 end of lines?  I discovered this when I was trying to print-out some
79 of my priceless contributions to philosophy.
80 ========================AGORA CADRE============lunch-time--25MAR83======
81 SO TELL ME AGORA, HOW DO YOU DEFINE "GOOD" AND " BAD" SO THAT THEY
82  AVOID AMBIGUITY??? EXAMPLE:
83                            "HE WAS A "GOOD" ACTOR,THEREFOR
84                             HE WILL MAKE A "GOOD" PRESIDENT"
85       THIS STATEMENT, LEFT UNQUALIFIED,IS A FAIR EXAMPLE OF A LOGICAL
86     POTHOLE ONE MAY FALL INTO WHEN USING VAGUE AND AMBIGUOUS TERMS.
87                             "THE BOY WAS "BAD" IN SCHOOL.
88                             "BAD BOYS SMOKE POT"
89                            -------------------------------
90                            THEREFOR, THE BOY WAS SMOKING POT
91        THIS OF COURSE IS FALACIOUS, BUT AGAIN A FAIR EXAMPLE OF
92         A FAULTY ARGUMENT USING POORLY QUALIFIED TERMS.
93   AND I SEE YOU CANT SEEM TO SHAKE THAT NASTY HABIT OF REVERTING
94  TO "NAME CALLING" IN YOUR ARGUMENTS.  THIS IS "BAD"
95  THIS YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR SOPHOMORE YEAR ETHICS OR
96  PHILOSOPHY CLASS MY FRIEND , OR WRITING CLASS IF NO WHERE ELSE.
97  AS FOR DEFACING THE WALLS OF ETHICS WITH FECES, MUST ONE NECESSARILY
98  AGREE WITH YOU AGORA, BEFORE THERE STATEMENTS ARE SEEN AS VALID???
99  OR ARE ALL THINKERS WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU "NAZIS", "SHIT THROWERS"
100  AND "CHILDISH"????     COME ON MAN, YOU SEEM TO HAVE ALOT OF
101 MEANINGFULL INSIGHTS TO SHARE. WHY WASTE YOUR TIME USING "MUD SLINGING"
102 
103 TACTICS IN YOUR ARGUMENT??? I BELIEVE PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE, BUT HEATED
104 EMOTIONALISM HAS NO PLACE IN A FAIR DEBATE!
105     RESPECTFULLY
106            SPAM- THE HERITIC
107 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
108     AGORA,
109 WHAT KIND OF TRUTH ARE YOU PERSUING,LOGICAL OR FACTUAL? IF FACTUAL
110 TRUTH IS WHAT YOUR AFTER,THEN QUOTE FACTS NOT GENERALITIES ( GOOD
111  BAD, AFGANISTAN,). IF LOGICAL TRUTH IS THE PERSUIT, THEN ARGUE LOGICALY.
112      YEAH SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"""  
113                                   ROYAL
114 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
115 EXIT
116 ABOUT THE LINE FEEDS, DON'T ASK ME.. I JUST PULLED THE SOFTWARE OUT
117 OF THE JUNK BOX. SO THATS THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN ORIGINALLY!
118 ACTUALLY GIVEN THAT I WAS AROUND WHEN THE STUFF WAS WRITTEN AND
119 KNOWING THE PERSONS WHO WROTE IT ORIGINALLY, I WOULD SAY THAT IT
120 WAS THE RESULT OF IGNORANT AND OR SLOPPY PROGRAMING. SPECIFICALLY
121 IF YOU LOOK AT THE DECIMAL VALUES FOR A CARRAGE RETURN AND LINE FEED
122 YOU WILL FIND THAT THEY ARE 13 AND 11 RESPECTIVELY. SINCE IT SEEMS 
123 EASIER TO WRITE 11 FOLLOWED BY 13 RATHER THEN THE OTHER WAY AROUND
124 YOU CAN SEE WHY IT ENDED UP THAT WAY. OF COURSE NO THOUGHT WAS GIVEN
125 AT THE TIME AS TO IF THIS WOULD BE A PROBLEM WHEN RUNNING AGAINST
126 'REAL' COMPUTERS. IN FACT, IT HAS ALWAYS GIVEN PROBLEMS. AS TO WHY
127 THEY WERE NOT EQUATED TO LABLES SO THAT IT WOULD BE EASIER TO REMEMBER?
128 AGAIN ALL I CAN SAY IS DON'T ASK ME, I DIDN'T WRITE IT!
129 ..... CISTOP MIKEY ... ABSOLVEING ALL RESPONSIBILITY IN THE MATTER .......
130 ---------------------------------------------------------3/25/83---------
131 A little bit of information about ONTV:
132    ONTV uses a "sync-suppressed active video inversion" scrambling
133 technique.  The horizontal sync is suppressed in the video or wrong
135 direction like the gated pulse type and the video is further scrambled by
136 randomly switching it from positive to negative.  The program audio is on
137 a 39.335 HZ subcarrier.  This is the complicated digital coded type, also
138 known as SSAVI-1 or SSAVI-2: a digital code is broadcast to enable the
139 descrambler for a short period of time.  This is why you have to pay extra
140 for premium shows; they can remotely control your descrambling box.
141                                           THE COSMIC CONNECTION
142 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
143 Ok, so is there anyone out there building descramblers that can run
144 with that mess? since it is possible to do the descrambling by
145 reading the data sent, i would think that it should be possible
146 to do so. of course the descramblers that ONTV sells are microcontroled
147 so that they can trip them with a transmitted signal. So all that
148 is needed is a descrambler that is tripped on all the time.
149 So, is there anyone out there doing this? and what kind of money are
150 we talking here?
151 ........ video freak ..............................................
152 TO SPAM THE LUNATIC
153             I THINK YOU ONLY SAY THINGS THAT ONLY SOUND NICE AT FIRST
154 GLANCE. BUT YOU ARE REALY INSULTING . JUST CAUSE YOU CALL SOMEONE
155 "MY FRIEND" DONT MEAN YOU CAN SAY HES STUPID TOO. "YOU SHOULD HAVE
156 LEARNED THIS::::" 
157 BONNIE 
158 LIST
161 ======================================================================
162    To Bonnie, you're music to my ears.
163    To SPAM and other assailants,  it was an experiment actually.  What's
164 the matter with a little sparks--ideas are exciting!! exhilerating!!
165 We're annonomous here.  I'm not attacking you personally.  I don't know
166 you personally.  I think people should be held personally responsible
167 for the views they espouse in a public forum.  TRUTH is SACRED and 
169 perpetrators of contradictory drivel should be exposed.  I have exposed
170 some of your drivel to be evil, maybe I succeeded in getting you to see
171 it in a different light.  Hell, I even got MOON-U to start sounding
172 like an intelligible human rather than a broken record.  He was denouncing
173 me, but so what?  I didn't feel a thing.  Hope he didn't damage his keyboard
174 though.  We hear the shit you passing off day-in and day-out.  It's drummed
175 into us in the government-run schools; the newspapers and libraries are
176 full of it.  It so all pervasive that few question it anymore.  It has
177 the sweet smell of cyanide, as BONNIE pointed out.  I can prove to you
178 that most of the junk you've parroted to us is causing death and terrible
179 misery in the world RIGHT NOW.  It's my earnest hope that you don't
180 realize that as the person you actually are sitting at your keyboard
181 somewhere.  But if you stand up as MR. X and espouse evil ideas then the
182 person of MR. X is open to moral scrutiny as well as his ideas.  If you
183 don't understand this, and my jabs do get thru to YOU rather than to SPAM
184 then perhaps you should rethink why you do hold the views you espouse.  
185 In which case you should send me a fee for helping sort out the tangled
186 mess of your ideas.  But I don't want it.  This is a free FREE forum.
187   I hold precise definitions for my terms.  You should too.  The
188 differences (ambiguities) get worked out as discussion progresses.
189 But I think we've establised inductively that this medium is good for
190 short exchanges where opinions can joust.  But for full qualification
191 of terms we can only possibly refer to written forms.  I come riding
192 a golden stallion and refer all interested to the works of Ayn Rand
193 (for Ethics, Epistemology, and Esthetics) and the works of Murry
194 Rothbard (for Economics, and Politics).  What pit do you slither from?
195    But I see that I'm still using more than 20 lines.  MIKE, if you're
196 reading, are you getting tired of changing disks every day?
197 =========AGORA CADRE riding into the sunset, never to return===============
198 ****************************************************************************
199 Just a reminder:
200 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
201 Sunday Mar.27 for 24hrs.
202   652-xxxx
203 ************************************************************************
204 A proposed code of *ETHICS*:
205 
206 1. Take care of yourself.
207 
208 2. Always try to leave things a little better for the next guy.
209 
210 (From an old SF short story.)
211                                     the Phantom Glitch
212 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||3|26|83||||||||||||
213 Hoofbeats off into the sunset, AGORA?  How quaint!  'Bet no one asks for one of
214 your silver bullets...even at current market price.   HUMBUG
215 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
216 Sorry, but this discussion will not just go away. To Agora, if your ethics
217 must change between "normal life" (whatever that may be) and "death chamber"
218 situations, it seems to me to be inadequate because the conflicts implied
219 in the death chamber situations exist in reality, even in our lives. The
220 same conflicts exist even if they are not deadly, as in the question about
221 property to build a house.
222 
223 In the history of science, we can see a trend starting at someone discovering
224 something, it slowly became accepted by experts, who were then quoted as
225 authority for it being true, and then finally the so-called scientific
226 method required all truth being tested by others. In the middle ages the
227 ancient Greek philosophers were quoted as 'truth', and until it became 
228 accepted that they weren't no real progress was made; the renaissance was
229 as much the reinvention of asking questions and testing them against truth
230 as of new invention. I see however, that much of the philosophy spouted
231 here is still in the middle ages, and merely quoted from authority. I hope
232 that eventually it will be learned that truth is true, by itself, and it
233 doesn't matter at all who said it.
234 A library of quotes doesn't make it any closer to true, either.
235 It is said that "the exception proves the rule", and in fact we are designed
236 that way. {Sorry, if you don't know that 'test' means to 'prove wrong', don't
237 feel ignorant, it's merely obsolete language} We ignore the constant, and
238 pay attention to the changes. A rule that has exceptions may be adequate,
239 even if wrong because it is right most of the time, but if you don't 
240 recognize the exception, then you are in trouble. I expect real ethics to
241 be able to pass this test, that they be universal, or have stated boudaries.
242 Recognizing that there is pain and suffering in the world is not causing it.
243 It must be dealt with. Moon U isn't the only one with head in the sand on this
244 board. The Donner party dealt with the impossible conflict one way, and
245 some survived, what would you do? Would your ethics survive the choice?
246 Again: who owns the land when 2 valid deeds cover it? And who decides, and
247 how? (This should cover the case of conflicting interest, even if you can't
248 handle the death chamber question.)
249 AS to the comment about unions being 'larger mobs', I'm afraid that if that
250 is what is necessary to get what you need, it is a valid method. I also agree
251 with the earlier comment about their time having past, but not because they
252 are evil, but oonly because they have been replaced by a bigger mob, who
253 offers better protection: the US government, and I will stay with the bigger
254 mob theory of proctetion until something better comes along. I don't think
255 it will.
256 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D.+++++++3-27-83++0113am+++++++++++
257 HELLO AGAIN AGORA
258 THIS TIME I WILL CONTROL MYSELF AND AVOID ATTACKING YOUR ARGUMENT
259 ON ITS "VALIDITY" IE:GENERALITIES,QUALIFYING EXAMPLES,AND BYPASSED
260 DEFINITIONS,AND ANSWER YOUR "STRAIGHT FORWARD" QUESTIONS.
261  YOU ASKED "WHAT SCHOOL OF PHILOSOPHY DO I COME FROM" AND "WHY DO
262 I BELIEVE WHAT I DO"?? WELL AFTER SPENDING AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF TIME
263 STUDYING EGOISM ( PHILOSPHICAL AS WELL AS ETHICAL), RELATIVISM,
264 CONSIQUENTIALIST AND UTTILITARIANISM,METAPHYSICS, EMPIRICISM,
265 DECART,HUME,BERKLY,RUSSLE,RAND,ETC..................
266 I HAVE FOUND THE HUMIAN EMPIRICISM MOST CONVINCING, EVEN THOUGH IT
267 DOES LOGICLY LEAD ONE TO SCEPTICISM.  I AM ALSO VERY INTRIGUED BY
268 BEHAVIORAL PSYCOLOGY AND CULTERAL ANTHROPOLOGY, ESSPECIALY IN AREAS
269 CONCERNED WITH CROSS CULTERAL IDEAS OF MORALITY AND RELIGION. I CAN
270 NOT,WILL NOT,ACCEPT THAT ANY "IDEA OF MORALITY AND ETHICS" IS A
271 NECESSARY, ABSOLUTE TRUTH THAT IS AND MUST REMAIN AS IT IS.
272 WHICH IS NOT TO SAY I DONT HOLD MY OWN "IDEAS OF MORAL STANDARD",
273 BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT MINE,OR ANYONE ELSES FO THAT MATTER,
274 ARE SO PERFECT THAT THEY MUST BE IMPOSED. YOU HAVE PROBABLY NOTICED
275 BY NOW THAT "EGOISM" IS A CICULAR ARGUMENT. ONE I HAVE CONTINUED TO
276 EMPLOY (PHILOSOPHICAL NOT ETHICAL). IT SIMPLY IS A PHILOSOPHY THAT
277 SAYS "PEOPLE ACT OUT OF SELF INTEREST" NOT "SELFISHNESS". SELFISHNESS
278 IS SOMTHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. COUPLE THIS WITH HUME-IAN EMPIRICISM
279 ("NO INATE IDEAS, WE LEARN FROM EXPERIANCE") AND YOU HAVE COMMON
280 SENSE PHILOSOPHY OF BEHAVIORALISM.  " WHY BELIEVE THIS WAY" ???
281 WELL FOR ONE , I WISH CERTAIN FREEDOMSS OF THOUGHT FOR MYSELF.
282 I WANT THE  "RIGHT" TO BELIEVE AS I WISH AN EXPRESS THOSE THOUGHTS
283 OPENLY. TO DO THIS I MUST REALIZE THAT OTHER PEOPLE AND CULTURES
284 HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT UPBRINGINGS.
285 THE "RIGHTS" I CLAIM MAY CONFLICT WITH THIERS BASED UPON THIS.
286 EXAMPLE? IF I WERE LIVING IN AMERICA DURING THE MACARTHY ERA
287 MY ADHEARING TO "COMMUNIST IDEAS" WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED THREATEN-
288 ING TO "AMERICAN FREEDOM". THIS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE BUT STILL
289 PUNISHABLE. THIS DOESNT MAKE MACARTHY-ISTS "RIGHT" AND COMMUNISTS
290 "WRONG" BUT THE MACARTHY-ISTS "BELIEVED THEY WERE RIGHT"!!!!
291 LIVE AND LET LIVE. DONT GET HUNG UP ON KANT-IAN, CARTISIAN, ABSOLUTE
292 METEPHYSICAL TRUTHS CONCERNING MORALITY. WHEN IN PERSUIT OF THE FACT-
293 UAL TRUTH WE MUST REMEMBER THAT THEY MAY CHANGE AS THE VARIABLES CHANGE.
294 ( WATER BOILS 210 DEG. FAR. BUT WILL IT ALWAYS BE ABSOLUTE ??) CON-
295 DITIONS MAY CHANGE. I LIKE THRASIMICUS:S INTERJETION CONCERNING 
296 "JUSTICE" (PLATO;S "REPUBLIC"). NO "ABSOLUTE MORAL TRUTH".
297 YOUR IDEAS OF WHAT AN "EVIL IDEA" IS MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS MINE,
298 OR WHAT IS "EVIL".  AGAIN MORAL BEHAVIOR BASED ON ITS UTTILITY.
299 THAT MEANS "BOTH" OUR INTERESTS MUST BE CONSIDERED.
300  IF YOU CAN ALLOW THAT MY LIBERALITY IS "EVIL" SIMPLY AT YOUR WORD,
301 THEN I CAN EQUALY ALLOW THAT YOUR JUDGEMENTALISM IS "EVIL".(SORRY
302 I JUST COULDN;T HELP BUT POINT OUT THE FLAW).
303  WHEN IN PERSUIT OF THE LOGICAL TRUTH THAT CAN BE SEEN CLEARLY 
304 BASED ON ITS LOGIC ALONE WITHOUT TURNING TO EXAMPLES IN THE WORLD,
305 ( CARTISIAN METAPHYSICS) WE END UP IN THE SAME LOGICAL POT-HOLE
306 DECART DID. WE END UP DENYING OUR EXPERIANCES IN AN ATTEMPT TO
307 PROVE THAT ABSOLUTE TRUTHS EXIST IN A WORLD THAT WE ARE AWARE OF
308 ONLY THROUGH OUR SENSES. "NO INATE IDEAS MY FRIENDS". MORALITY IS
309 SUBJECTIVE. IT IS LEARNED BEHAVIOR. AND THESE ISSUES KEEP BEING
310 CLOUDED BY LINGUISTIC CONFUSION.
311   EMMANUAL KAUNT WROTE MUCH MORE ON THE SUBJECT OF A UNIVERSAL
312  MORAL ETHICAL CODE THAN RAND. ALTHOUGH I DONT AGREE WITH MUCH
313  OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY, I DO SUGJEST YOU READ HIS PHILOSOPHY
314  IF YOU ARE INTRIGUED BY RAND.        SUN,27,
315 SPAM-THE HERITIC
316 
317 What is truth? What is morality? What is Evil? What is any other concept
318 that has has been expounded here as being absolute? We look in the
319 dictionary and find a nice cosy definition (Truth: reality; actual
320 existence.) and assume that we are right and that anyone that dissagrees
321 with us is wrong. Yet what is reality but a representation of the world
322 as we see it? Yes, much of what we see and believe is shared with others
323 around us, but that does not mean that the guy across the street is evil
324 or wrong just because he likes something you don't. The world is full
325 of beliefs of what is considered evil or wrong that others find strange
326 or rediculous. It is evil to drink it is evil to dance it is evil to 
327 eat thy neighbor it is evil to worship differently then me it is evil to
328 kill yourself it is evil to take drugs it is evil to have more then  one
329 wife it is evil to have intercourse with one who is not your wife.
330 Each of these is wrong only if we believe them to be. This dose not meen 
331 that they are not wrong or evil or are, only that they are to the person
332 who believes so. I may believe it to be wrong for you to be using a
333 computer and this would be perfectly reasonable for me, yet dose this
334 make me any different then the man in Africa who believes it is alright
335 to eat his father when he dies so as to gain his wisdom? We may both find
336 this to be revolting, but that is simply an extension of our particular
337 reality as we have created it. Each person is the center of their own
338 reality as they have made it. There is nothing right or wrong about this,
339 it simply is. Is this truth? perhaps, in my reality it is, yet in yours
340 it may not be, and that's reasonable to for that is your reality.
341 So the next time you state something as being truth of fact keep in mind 
342 that while it may be in your realtiy, it may not be in anothers.
343 A while back it was stated that to test was to determine if a concept
344 was wrong, perhaps, but it could as easily be considered as to determine
345 if something is right. Is it half full or half empty?
346 .... A FEW THOUGHTS WITH CISTOP MIKEY ...............................
347 MIKEY
348 IT MAY BE INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT "RITUAL CANIBALISM" HAS BEEN
349 NOTED AS VERY PROMINANT BEFORE NEADERTHALINESE ERA.
350 EUROPEAN CULTERS DID NOT DISCARD THIS BEHAVIOR UNTILL SOMEWHERE
351 AROUND 20,000 YEARS B.P.,IF NOT LATER. "MANS FIRST PURSUIT OF
352 DEVINITY"?????  I DOUBT IT BUT I JUST THROW THAT IN.
353    SPAM
354 ======================================================================
355 To SPAM, BAD, and other subjectivists.  Just because people have different
356 uses and understandings for terms like GOOD, doesn't mean that as CONCEPTS
357 (i.e., epistemological tools) they are "subjective in essence".  Yes, man
358 is born tabula rasa--there are no innate concepts.  Yes, men go through
359 processes of enculturation.  But, be careful with your statistical
360 observations when you apply them to man in general or to concepts qua
361 concepts.  There are other, more fundamental facts about man (eg, volition)
362 and about concepts (eg, valid essence) that your statistical generalization
363 may contradict.  Men were once enculturated to believe that earth was solar
364 system central.  The truth of the matter existed independent of how they
365 were enculturated.  Good men accumulated a body of knowledge and contin-
366 ually re-examine it to compare it against reality.  Truth is the
367 recognition of reality.  Individual men experience truth subjectively.
368 But reality exists independent of the subjective wishes, whims, prayers,
369 or concepts of men.  
370   Just as you have a Gas Chamber Ethics, you have a Fog-Bound
371 Epistemology.  You observe that men's desires conflict and then attempt
372 to model rights as essentially conflicting (against which I will "mud-
373 sling" till my dying day).  You observe that men's opinions conflict
374 and then attempt to model concepts as "essentially subjective".  I ask
375 the same question I did in ethics:  Why must you construct an 
376 epistemological model that quarantees the coexistence of contradictory
377 concepts, when the goal of epistemology is to codify for man the rules
378 for discovering and verifying non-contradictory truth?  Ask yourself if
379 maybe it isn't because you like the comfort of a model that blesses the
380 contradictions you have WITHIN your own ideas.  An objective model offers
381 water for a thirsty world.  Maybe you should keep yours to yourself, as
382 MOON-U suggested.
383 ========AGORA CADRE (calling from Merlin's cave on a distant mountain)=====
384 AGORA,
385 THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INADVERTANTLY PROVING "MY" POINT FOR ME!
386 IT SAVES ME SO MUCH TROUBLE. YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE ONCE BELIEVED
387 "SOLAR SYSTEM CENTRAL UNIVERSE" IS GOOD ARGUMENT.(FOR MY SECOND
388 PREMISE WICH I REPEAT) "ANY FACTUAL TRUTH COULD BE OTHER THAN IT
389 IS" CONCLUSION:KEEP AN OPEN MIND. AS FOR RIGHTS,OR INTERESTS AS
390 I PREFER, CONFLICTING IN A "GAS CHAMBER ETHICAL MODEL" I CAN ONLY
391 SAY THIS. THE INSTINCT TO SURVIVE IS A VERY STRONG ONE, NOT ONLY
392 IN MAN,BUT IN EVERY CREATURE. IT IS A STRONGER DRIVE THAN TERITORIALITY,
393 MOTHER-FATHERHOOD,FOOD AND SHELTER NEEDS, FOR NONE OF THESE HAS ANY
394 IMPORTANCE IF ONE IS NOT ALIVE TO PROTECT THEM. I MUST ADMIT HERE
395 THAT ALL THIS DRIBBLE IVE BEEN REPEATING TO YOU HERE ARE EXAMPLES I
396 HAVE PLAGERIZED FROM ONE , WILLIAM CASEY , PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY,
397 CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY. IN HIS WORDS " WHY WASTE TIME WITH ARGUMENTS
398 OVER SECONDARY ISSUES. THE BEST EXAMPLES ARE THOSE THAT TRY THE VERY
399 FOUNDATION OF AN ARGUMENT". HIS "GAS CHAMBER " MODEL IS SIMPLY THE
400 LOGICAL EXTREME OF CONFLICTING "RIGHTS". THE "RIGHT TO LIFE" BEING
401 THE MOST FUNDIMENTAL. RIGHTS WILL CONFLICT IN ANY SYSTEM OF "ABSOLUTE
402 UNIVERSAL MEASURE OF RIGHTS". SINCE THEY "CAN" CONFLICT, WE ARE
403 REDUCED TO WEIGHING THE UTTILITY OF OUR DEEDS. DO YOU AGORA,
404 EXAMINE  THE UTTILITY OF YOUR DEEDS BEFORE ACTING? OR DO YOU
405 SIMPLY HAVE YOUR "UNIVERSAL CODE OF ETHICS" TO JUSTIFY YOUR DEEDS
406 WITHOUT THOUGHT OF THIER BENIFITS OR REPRICUSSIONS??? UNLESS YOU
407 ARE A ROBOT THAT IS PROGRAMED TO ALWAYS ACT THE SAME TO EVERY
408 STIMULIS,OR DO YOU HAVE FREE WILL? YOU EXPRESS A BELIEF IN MY 
409 HAVING FREE WILL TO MAKE DECISIONS WHEN YOU EXPECT I "MAY CHANGE
410 MY MIND AND BECOME ENLIGHTENED",SO I WILL CONSIDER IT GRANTED THAT
411 YOU HAVE FREE WILL. THEREFOR I CANT SEE WHY YOU CANT SEE THE FUNDIMENTAL
412 "TRUTH" THAT OUR CONCEPTS OF MORALITY "COULD BE OTHER THAN THEY ARE".
413 IT IS WORTHLESS TO PERSUE "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" OUTSIDE OF ITS CONDITIONS
414 AND VARIABLES. FACTUAL TRUTHS REST ON THIER CONSISTANCYS BUT WHAT IS
415 "CONSIDERED" AS TRUTH IS DEPENDANT ON ITS BEING PERCIEVED.
416  "ESSE EST PRECEPI" WHAT IS NOT SEEN IS NOT CONSIDERED OR DEALT WITH.
417  IF I DONT KNOW ALL THE VARIABLES OR THE ONES THAT MAY CHANGE I
418 MAY SAY SOMTHING IS "GOOD""MORAL" "RIGHT",BASED ON THE CONSISTANCYS,
419 BUT I MUST ALLOW THAT I MAY BE WRONG. I SEE WE AGREE ON THE "BLANK SLATE"
420 CONT,  
421 THEORY.SO WHY THE BEEF WITH THE BERKLEY-IAN EXTENSION AND HUME-IAN
422 EMPERICISM? (LETS AVOID THE AREA OF"SUBSTANCE,PLEASE). EXTREME HEAT
423 MODEM TROUBLE SPAM
424 =======================================================================
425 To SPAM.  No, you're grasping at straws.  The solar system example
427 doesn't illustrate that truth is subjective, perhaps we agree that
428 our knowledge of truth is contextual and grows.  At any stage in the
429 growth are claims about reality, assertions of truth.  Newtonian
430 physics did not become completely false with the advent of special
431 relativity.  Special relativity simply refined the model with new
432 knowledge and Newtonian physics was subsumed as a special case of a
433 more general theory.  This is how knowledge grows.  F=d(mv)/dt actually
434 allowed for the mass/energy equivalency.  You haven't read Rand to any
435 substantial degree or you would know what the "beef" with Kant, Berkley,
436 and Hume is, I simply can't educate you here.  Don't reify truth down
437 to specific instances of it as embodied in a current state of knowledge.
438 Truth can be discussed (both metaphysically and epistemologically) without
439 chaining it to some specific level of man's knowledge state or belief
440 system (as the solar system example illustrates).  
441   To B.A.D.  One of the purposes of Ethics is to map for man what 
443 constitutes a "noraml life".  Ethics is used to interpret Gas Chamber
444 situations.  It is not founded upon them.  Ethics does not "change"
445 from situation to situation.  It subsumes them.  
446   Ethics is not founded on guaranteed-death situations.  If you present
447 the view that it is then your motives come under extreem suspicion, as
448 I've discussed above.  Would you have a piston replaced by a mechanic
449 who advertised to you a torque-wrench that was GUARANTEED to twist the head
450 off at least one bolt?  You and the other Gas-Chamber advocates are 
451 advertising just such an ethical wrench.  But your ethical wrench twists
452 off the heads of innocent people.  You growl when I expose this and when
453 I damn you for trying to pass it off.  It isn't just a car being fixed.
454 Your ethical wrench shows its application in places like Aushwitz.
455 "Mud-slinging" is too good for you.  If you're beginning to see this, then
456 get your ethical house in order before inviting us in.  
457   To HUMBUG:  The very fact that YOU have addressed me in this present
458 free market of ideas constitutes YOUR request for a silver bullet.  What
459 annoys you?  Pride, dramatic hyperbole, or the fact that someone might be
460 living a life more joyful than your HUMBUG, humdrum, mediocre one?
461   Crawl back into the smelly ooz from whence thou came, demon, or you may
462 be the hapless recipient of a silver bullet.  You won't have to pay, and
463 it will be travelling fast.
464 ======AGORA CADRE (lightning and thunder on the mountain)================
465 As the smoke begins to clear, I begin to see a little of the nature of
466 the argument that is raging here. On the one side we have the forces of
467 AGORA CADRE who talks of ethics as they apply to day to day living (Should
468 I kill my neighbor just for the fun of it?) While on the other side we 
469 have the forces of SPAM Inc. speeking of real life dire situations. (Should
470 I kill my neighbor because he just shot me in the stomach and is about to
471 pull the trigger again?) Proper ethics (what ever that is) will always
472 fall apart come a dire situation. Please note that in this case I denote
473 a dire situation as one in which the life or death of the individual who
474 is makeing the decision is in the balance. In the case of a non-death
475 situation the choice will be made with regard to a slightly degraded form
476 of standard ethical behavoir. In the case where immenent death is at hand
477 the end end result is that you will do what ever you have to do to save
478 your own skin and to hell with others. Where there is a multiple life 
479 decision to make things tend to revert to the natural law of survival of
480 the fitest. Haveing been thru the situation of making that decision,
481 I can tell you that though it may seem grossly wrong to you the fact of
482 the matter is you will always try to save your own skin first. It is only
483 when you are safe or as safe as you can get that you will begin to think
484 of others even though they be you closest friend or blood kin. I will 
485 help someone else only when I can gain something by it, or not hurt me
486 because of what I do. Can you truthfully in you heart of hearts say better?
487 ........... the exwarior ................................................
489  AGORA: Nope, I didn't ask for a bullet; wrong conclusion.  I merely express
490 ed what relief I felt at the time that this fusillade between masked elite on
491 such subjects had ended.  If only, I had thought, trying to see if any of you
492 had listened to any of the others of you, your minds were to be focused on 
493 matters that can improve the lives of us and our neighbors right now...things
494 an intelligent individual can implement to correct wrongs actually, not meta-
495 physically, done to others within, say, ten miles of your mountain; to inform
496 others of happy events to be taking place within, say, twenty-minutes' ride of
497 my house; to share your time and sweat to help another accomplish his small
498 goal; or to share your love and presence with your parents, even tho' it's not
499 your style.  I apologize if I threw mud in your direction.  Use your mind to
500 help improve the here-and-now workaday reality of Oregon, USA...don't just
501 tire it out in an electronic shouting match of dubious distinction. HUMBUG
502 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
503 As a parting thought, you might remember the old saying;
504 "As ye sow so shall ye reap a hundred fold."
505 ........ The exwarior ....................................
506 A few thoughts:
507 "The exception proves the rule" is an example of what Asimov has
508 called "lost in non-translation". At the time that statement was
509 originally made "prove" had the meaning we now give "test" (this
510 meaning stays on in such phrases as "proving ground".
511 B.A.D.- You mentioned "if that is the only way you can get what
512 you need". OK fine, but be sure that it IS what you need, not
513 merely what you WANT. For example: a man with a broken leg WANTS
514 a shot of painkiller & to be left alone after it. What he NEEDS
515 is to have the bone set! (in case you weren't aware of it, even
516 with the local anesthetic they give you getting a bone set HURTS!)
517 
518 Surivival IS a powerful instinct. So is the sex drive. This does
519 not mean that we have to follow them blindly. Some people argue
520 that altruism has survival value too. I'm not sure. (exwarrior,
521 I have a sneaking hunch that if someone was trying to do me in
522 I'd do whatever was neccessary to keep myself alive, but I'm not
523 too sure how I'd feel afterwards)
524 
525 I think that the few people who have said anything about my
526 F-IW slogan don't quite understand it, expanded it reads:
527 Freedom is being able to say I won't!
528 
529 Finally, two ethical(moral?) concepts that haven't been mentioned
530 1. Do unto others as they would have you do unto them. 
531    (this is NOT the golden rule!) (ie be cruel to masochists!)
532 2. Always act in such a way that the maxim of your will can at
533    the same time always be valid as a principle of general
534    legislation (Kant).
535    Translated: Stop and think what would happen if EVERYONE did
536    what you are considering.
537 These are the basic principles upon which Metalawis being founded
538 #2 handles the "death chamber" nicely, in fact it is an unspoken
539 assumption behind many laws. I think that these two principles
540 can handle most (if not all) of the moral/ethical "problems"
541 proposed on this system recently. Any comments?
542 _____________________________F - I W__________________________
543 TO ALL WHO RESPONDED TO THE ABOVE
544 AGGHHH - ARGUMENTS - TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITH CONFLICTING VIEWS FEELINGS ETC.
545 TOUGH BUT CAN BE DONE 
546 JUST LEAVE ME TO MYSELF I WONT HURT YOU YOU DONT HURT ME
547 
548 
549 
550 
551 ********************************************************************************
552 "REMEMBER, UNTIL YOU UNDERSTANDTHAT NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO YOU,
553 NOTHING CAN EVER COME TO YOU OR BE KEPT AWAY FROM YOU EXCEPT IN 
554 ACCORDANCE WITH THE STATE OF YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS, YOU DO HAVE THE THE
555 KEY TO LIFE."
556 FROM CHAPTER 6 OF "CONSCIOUSNESS, THE KEY TO LIFE" BY SRI DARWIN GROSS.
557 FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL ECKANKAR 228 xxxx
558 ********************************************************************************
559 SPAM -- How can you have done so much reading and spell so poorly?  Your
560 arguments would be much more impressive (and why argue if not to impress
561 your point of view) if one could read them without so many involuntary
562 shudders.
563  
564 A point which has been glossed over is that of NEED.  Let's face it -- ethics
565 is a luxury reserved to those who have had their basic needs met.
566  
567 A parting thought -- "If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?"
568 ------------------------------P.D.Q.-------------------------------------
569 The urge for survival is not supreme - there have been
570 MANY MANY cases where a person has endangered his own life
571 (and sometimes lost it) for the sake of another, in many cases
572 this was done without pondering the consequences or alternatives
573 before acting.
574 As to quoting others - If I quote someone else it is because
575 they can say the things that I want to say better than I can.
576 Spelling: Just because someone cannot spell the word properly
577 does not mean that he(or she) cannot think the thought.
578 -----------------------------------------------Grey Ghost---------
579 To F - I W 
580 We seem to be lost in a misconception of what is being said.
581 You keep talking about what is generally considered the 'proper' thing to
582 do, while others (including me) are talking about what really will
583 happen. These are going to be different, and always will be. Even as you
584 stated, you would not know what you would do after the action. I will
585 tell you this, there are normally two reactions that occur. A: You block
586 it out of your mind as being wrong. B: You go crazy. Type B happens a lot
587 more then most think it would and the only way out normally is to somehow
588 revert to type A. 
589 To Grey Ghost
590 I have found that most (if not all) who perform that death defying act
591 you speek of did not consider them selves to be in danger. In fact if
592 they had considered it to be, they would never have performed the act.
593 About spelling
594 While correct spelling is nice, If you are so intent on checking for it
595 then you have missed the purpose of communications entirly. The words
596 used to communicate with are unimportant. Only the thoughts they represent
597 are what matter. If you find you cannot read something and obtain the 
598 information from it because of a few misspellings, then I would suggest 
599 you go take a few courses on conceptual analysis. All forms of the 
600 communication caries information even the misspellings themselves carry
601 important information about the writter, what he is saying, what he is 
602 thinking, and the very medium thru which he is communicateing.
603 Besides, people who live in glass houses shouldn'T throw bricks!
604 ..... the exwarior ........................................................
605 TO ALL IN RESPONSE TO MY ATROCIOUS SPELLING. ALL I CAN SAY IS THIS.
606 I DO TAKE SOME TIME, AS MUCH AS IS CONVENIENT FOR 20-30 MINUTES ON
607 THE BOARD, TO LOOK UP WORDS IM UNSURE OF. I TO NOTICE MISSPELLINGS
608 BUT IF THE MEANING OF ONES ARGUMENT GETS MUDDLED IN MISSPELLINGS,
609 I WOULD BE SURE TO ASK QUESTIONS. I AM OPEN TO THE SAME KINDS OF 
610 QUESTIONS. I SAY THIS HONESTLY. SORRY IF IVE LEFT ANYTHING UN-
611 CLEAR.          SPAM-THE HERITIC
612 I NOW KNOW THAT THE QUARTERS I PUT INTO VIDEO GAMES WHERE WASTED
613 CHANGE-BACKWATER HAS MORE TO OFFER-PAM----------------------------------
614 Words are for communication. If you can't understand what was said for the
615 spelling, it was wasted, if it can be read what difference dose it make?
616 People will read in things to fit their own ideas anyway. Life may be
617 the same, a transfer of meaning in the genes, and in this context the 
618 parent lying down her life for the child is not suicide, it is survival.
619 BD

                                                                