FILE ON
MARGIN IS 128 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ******************* REMOVED: 27 AUG 83 *******************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 	Another disk bites the dust.........
26 &%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&%&%&%&%&%
27 Shouldn't that be 'Bytes'?
28 ****** CISTOP MIKEY (GROAN.....) ***** 21 AUG 83 **** 2:14PM ******
29 Picture a man on a street corner with a sign around his
30 neck, his hat in his outstreached hand.....
31 On the sign it reads: "UNSUCESFILL RITER"
32 Need I say more...............
33 ()()()()()()()()8)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()(()()()
34 
35 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
36 Ahem....
37     If a person who sends his child to private school gets back the taxes it
38 would have cost to send the child to public school.....  Do I, who have no
39 children, also get back my taxes?  (actually, I don't have 12 kids, so send
40 me 12 refunds....)
41                                     the Phantom Glitch, 8/21/83
42 
43 _/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\
44 -----
45 This disk is getting off to a sloooooooooow start.....
46 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
47 HEE,HEE, NOT BAD GLITCH.
48   
49 MIKEY, I KNEW ABOUT GERMANY, BUT I WAS MAKING A POINT ABOUT VERY CAPI-
50 TALISTIC COUNTRIES LIKE HONG KONG (IRONICALLY RUN BY THE BRITISH) NOT
51 SOCIALISTIC EUROPEAN COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY THAT THE ANTI-TAX CONTINGENT
52 WOULD DISMISS OUT OF HAND AS BEING PRO-TAX.
53   CONCERNING STEEL MILLS THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS FOR U.S. STEEL 
54 THE COMPANY, NOT THE COUNTRY, BEING IN SUCH TROUBLE.
55 1. THE BIG OLD STEEL PLANTS IN THIS COUNTRY HAD SOME OF THE HIGHEST
56    PAID WORKERS IN THE WORLD AND STILL DO. WAGES ARE STILL QUITE
57    IMPORTANT IN THE STEEL BUSINESS. SOME SMALL STEEL MAKERS IN THIS COUNTRY
58    ARE DOING QUITE WELL, BUT THEY PAY 1/3 LESS THAN U.S. STEEL 
59 2. THE TECHNOLOGY AT U.S. STEEL IS OLDER - THE NEW TECHNOLOGY REQUIRES
60    MANY FEWER WORKERS.
61 3. STEEL PRODUCTION IS A LOW LEVEL INDUSTRIAL ACTIVITY. STEEL PRODUCED
62    BY ARTISANS TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO LIKE DAMASCUS STEEL IS QUITE
63 COMPARABLE TO MODERN SPECIALTY STEELS. 95% OF STEEL PRODUCED DOES NOT NEED 
64 TO BE BETTER THAN THAT. THE JAPANESE HAVE THE BEST STEEL PRODUCTION
65 TECHNOLOGY KNOWN, BUT THEY ARE GETTING RID OF THEIR MILLS AND LICENSING
66 THE TECHNOLOGY. THEY BELIEVE THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY IS APPROPRIATE TO 
67 A COUNTRY LIKE ZAMBIA OR MEXICO. EVEN KOREA IS POISED TO TAKE SIMILAR 
68 MEASURES. ALSO, THEY KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL PRODUCTION OF STEEL DOESN'T
69 TAKE VERY MANY HIGH LEVEL PEOPLE, AND SO THAT PRODUCTION OF STEEL
70 IN CONTRAST TO PLANT DESIGN WILL CONTINUE TO BE WAGE SENSITIVE AS LONG
71 AS THE STEEL MARKET IS A WORLD MARKET.
72 
73 4. THEY KNOW THAT NEWER EQUIPMENT DESIGNS WILL FURTHER REDUCE THE 
74    REQUIREMENT FOR LABOR, PUTTING PEOPLE OUT OF JOBS. THEY WOULD RATHER
75    BE THE COUNTRY FULL OF ENGINEERS, RATHER THAN THE COUNTRY FULL
76    OF UNEMPLOYED DISPLACED BY NEW TECHNOLOGY. IN THIS WAY THEY EXPORT
77    THE UNEMPLOYMENT CAUSED BY THEIR INNOVATIONS.
78 
79 WHAT LEWIS MUMFORD PREDICTED MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO IS NOW HAPPENING.
80 I REFER TO HIS BOOK TECHNICS AND CIVILIZATION. HE SAID THAT THERE
81 WOULD BE THREE PHASES TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, WHICH HE SAID STARTED 
82 IN THE EARLY MIDDLE AGES. HE CALLED THESE PHASES NEOTECHNIC, PALEOTECHNIC,
83 AND EOTECHNIC. IN THE LAST PHASE (CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH IT IS, EO OR NEO AND
84 AM TOO LAZY TO GO GET THE BOOK RIGHT NOW) INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION WAS SUPPO-
85 SED TO GO FROM MASS PRODUCTION OF LOOK-ALIKES TO THE SPECIALIZED
86 PRODUCTION OF UNIQUE OR LIMITED EDITION ITEMS (AMONG OTHER THINGS). THE
87 OLDER MEANS OF PRODUCTION, THE LARGE SCALE MASS-PRODUCTION FACILITIES
88 WOULD EITHER CLOSE DOWN OR BE CONVERTED TO THE PRODUCTION OF MORE
89 HIGHLY INDIVIDUALIZED SPECIALTY PRODUCTS. THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE VERY
90 FEW PEOPLE. THIS PRODUCTION WOULD BE VERY HIGH-TECH BUT THE 'TECH' WOULD
91 TEND TO BE INCONSPICUOUS (ALA AURTHUR C CLARKE). MASS PRODUCTION
92 FACILITIES THAT STILL EXISTED WOULD BE MOVED TO RURAL AREAS AND MORE
93 PRIMITIVE NATIONS.
94 
95   THE JAPANESE KNOW ALL ABOUT THIS. THAT'S WHY WHEN THEY MAKE DEALS WITH
96 U.S. AUTO MAKERS TO PRODUCE TOYOTAS OVER HERE THEY ARE NOT DOING US 
97 SUCH A GREAT FAVOR, THOUGH IT WOULD BE CHEAPER FOR THEM IN BRASIL OR
98 BOLIVIA. THEY ARE MERELY EXPORTING OUTDATED MEANS OF PRODUCTION AND
99 KEEPING THE HIGH LEVEL JOBS AND THE MONEY. 
100 
101 ATLANTIC MAGAZINE, BUSINESS WEEK, AND SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN HAVE ALL
102 CARRIED ARTICLES ON THIS LATELY (LAST SIX MONTHS?)
103 
104 SO THE ANSWER IS NOT MERELY MODERNIZING AND RETRAINING. IT'S ALSO
105 GETTING RID OF YESTERDAY'S INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (ALONG WITH IT'S
106 OFFSPRING OF 60 YEARS AGO THAT WE'VE BEEN DEBATING HERE LATELY,"SCIENTIFIC"
107 MANAGMENT).
108 
109 PERHAPS WE OUGHT NOT BE PUTTING ALL OUR MONEY IN NEWER WAYS OF DOING THE
110 SAME OLD THINGS. SHURELY NOT EVEN MOST OF US CAN BE PROGRAMMERS
111 AND ROBOT TECHNICIANS. THESE CATAGORIES MAY BE EXTINCT IN 20 YEARS.
112 
113 MAYBE THE *REAL* JOBS OF THE FUTURE ARE HIGH TECH (OR LOW TECH) ARTISTS,
114 SCIENTISTS, DANCERS, WAITERS, STREET MUSICIANS. ATHELETES, ASTRONAUTS -
115 BUT I'M SURE I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO GUESS WHAT. 
116 
117 THE ABOVE JOBS ARE LABOR INTENSIVE AND CREATIVE. STRESS ON LABOR INTENSIVE,
118 BECAUSE WE HAVE ENTERED A PHASE OF TECHNOLOGY IN MASS PRODUCTION WHERE
119 PEOPLE ARE PHASED OUT VERY QUICKLY.
120 
121 BUT THE SOCIETY WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE PRODUCTS OF THESE PEOPLE
122 ARE WORTH BUYING, AND MAYBE OTHER LARGE SCALE ATTITUDE CHANGES ARE NECESSARY.
123 REMEMBER THAT THE MOVIES ARE STILL ONE OF OUR BEST EXPORTS.
124 THEY ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HIGH TECH LABOR INTENSIVE ART. PROGRAMMING
125 MIGHT BE A BETTER ONE (TYPICALLY ONLY RELATIVELY FEW COPIES OF A PROGRAM
126 ARE SOLD AND MOST OF THOSE MAY BE MODIFIED BY THE CUSTOMER OR THE PRODUCER.
127 MANY OR MAYBE MOST PROGRAMS ARE NOW DESIGNED TO BE MODIFIED. THIS IS
128 EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING MUMFORD WAS TALKING ABOUT)
129 
130 ANYHOW,....................... CHUCK
131 P.S. DON'T AGREE THAT MORE JOBS WERE CREATED BY INDUSTRY AFTER TECHNOLOG-
132 ICAL INNOVATIONS. CARE TO DEBATE?
133 BYE NOW,
134 ............................................................................
135 
136 
137 
138 
139 	The fact that US steel companies seem to be inefficient may not
140 be their fault.  Sure, they pay very high wages, but here's why:  The govt.
141 has (for the last 50 years, at least) been very pro-union, because 
142 (obviously) unions are people-rich and people each have one vote.  The
143 actions of the govt. (NLRB) are to force wage concessions that are 
144 not justified by the market.  When steel companies are otherwise inclined
145 to hold out, the govt. threatens.
146 	So eventually the average wage rises to the point that US steel
147 isn't competitive any more, and everyone points their finger at the
148 companies.  
149 }{{}{}{{{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{{}{}{}{}{}{}{{}{}{}{
150 CHUCK:
151 You simply stated in far more eligent terms what I said on the other disk.
152 (re: US Steel.) As for debating, sorry no, I just like to blow off steam
153 now and then. As for the jobs issue, suggest you read up on the Luddites
154 of England. They felt the same way as you. (No, I'm not calling you a Luddite.)
155 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (SORT OF) ****** 21 AUG 83 **************************
156 P.S. After rereading what I said, I find that there maybe a misinterpitation
157 of what I said. In that I stated that 'more' jobs would become available.
158 By this I did not mean to say that even more jobs then the current average
159 would be created, but rather that on an average for every job that disappears,
160 another wil take its place. Thru the yyears, the average number of jobs as
161 a percentage of those working verses those not has not really changed 
162 significantly. What has changed is the definition of what is a job. Or maybe
163 I should restate that to what is not a job I.E. Unemployed. The very term
164 'unemployed' now has very bad conotations. Yet at one time it meant 
165 independence. My how times have changed... Of course nowadays we call it
166 selfemployed and it is much harder to do because of all the gorvernment
167 red tape and such. Say there is a thought for you debaters to tackle.
168 Is all the red tape and hassle from the government a result of the mass
169 production industry needing workers (therefor needing to strangle out
170 the unattached so as to make them come and work for the mass producers.)
171 or is it the result of some other insidious plot to overthrow the
172 capitalist warmongering state? 
173 ***********************************************************************
174 P.P.S. I thought I wasn't going to do any debating!
175 ************************************************************************
176 -------------------------------------------
177   It seems to me that what we are actually seeing here is the
178 first ripples of that 'golden age' of full leasure time that has been a SF favorite for so many years.
179   The basic problem though is even though we are on the edge of not having
180 to work for a liveing in the traditional sense theres no method evolving for people to 'make a liveing'.
181                        Paul
182 ------------------------------------------------
183 
184 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
185 
186      With our society working around the basis of paying our own way, and our economy based on consumerism, how is the
187 average person going to have the necessary income to support themselves or be good consumers as we shift from the
188 standard "job" to the self-employed.  Our economy is geared around a large employed population ready to spend money on
189 the goods produced.  Businesses will have to change their focus, and those that depend entirely on consumerism (such
190 as the retail apparel trade) will probably find it rough.  It sounds like a massive restructuring of our economy is in 
191 the offing, but I'm not sure of how so many unemployed people will survive. We need artisans, entertainers, atheletes, 
192 etc., but we probably won't have enough of these positions available for the numbers involved.  So what do these
193 people do?  Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book called "Player Piano" about such a culture, and he seemed to think that the
194 chief effect would be incredible boredom for most of those unemployed, combined with lowered self-esteem.  Many people 
195 still believe in the work ethic, and measure their own personal worth by their work.  I'm sure most of us are that way 
196 too.  People such as this that enjoy work would soon find something to do, whether they could make a living from it or 
197 not.  But they might still be hungry.  How might we solve this?
198                                                            /Elberich\                                                   
199 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
200 
201 BAD:  I completely agree with your last comment on drive 'B'. You said what I
202 was attempting to say earlier, but seemed to say it much more clearly...I am
203 refering, obviously, to the relationship of marginal cost to average cost.
204 
205 Mr. Eastlund...are you still out there, have you left any comments or did
206 you just not sign your name to them?? It would be nice if everyone sign there
207 messages with some identifying mark, and remain consistant! I know of some
208 names that are the same person!
209 
210 P.S.  I resent the assumption that all computer hackers are relativly ugly!
211 I don't consider myself the best looking person in the world, but I don't think
212 that I am ugly...am I a minority???
213 
214 Post-P.S.  I can tell that we are all such good spelers!
215 Speaking (typing) of school...What do all you computer related people think
216 about the local school districts going head over heals into computer science?
217 I am talking about the high school-level...but grade schools/junior highs have
218 also delged deeply into the computer field. For instance, Reynolds school district just spent $56,000 on some new Apple
219 IIe computers (what a mistake!). The district bought some 36 new Apple computers
220 and, at the same time, sold all the rest of the computers (non-Apple) that the
221 district owned! The man responsible for this is Earl Phyllips, a "computer
222 expert" at Columbia High school.
223 
224 Hee, Hee, Hee, wait until he meets me!!!!
225 I am in favor of the expenditure (not necessarily the brand of computer) toward
226 the computer science program...what does everyone else think???
227 
228 
229 The sysm...system manager (big deal!), Reynolds High school...
230 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
231 To SYSM  FROM TRON
232   Hello once again! Yes, our schools just bought 13 apples
233 also. I wish the'd get a computer of a much higher value than
234 an E!?!? The Apple IIe is just a cheap imitation of the Apple
235 II+ except with about 3 extra frills thrown in plus they charge
236 about 500 dollars more than the + costs. The only computer Apple
237 ever put out and ever will put out was the Apple II+. It's a
238 real good one. Personally I think that the LISA is a big
239 failure because of the built in software. If you could get rid
240 of that, it would be a GREAT computer. I think I'll just go an
241 buy a TRS-80 Model 16........
242 
243                                     TRON
244 ............................................................
245 On the school/property tax etc discussion: I'm waiting for the fireworks to start in California. It seems that they had an
246 INCREDIBLE budget surplus at the time Prop 13 passed. They have been "living" off of this ever since. I understand that the
247 deficits started last spring...........
248 	On unions/wages/automation: If your local store keeps
249 raising the price of some NECESSITY on you, you will either find another store, try to do without, or make it yourself....
250 RIGHT? So while there MAY be some companies that are gouging the
251 workers (not many with current laws!), in most cases labor wants more than the company can afford (sooner or later) thus they
252 get their jobs automated out from under them. I find it hard to
253 believe some of the pay rates I have heard ($20/hr!). I hope that some day labor will realize that their constant pay raises
254 are why they need constant pay raises! As someone said earlier,
255 the laws are VERY pro-union. I wish someone would try to do a
256 COMPLETE economic model on one of the "supercomputers" & see what the "best" compromise between wages, profits, & inflation
257 is. They could at least get a reasonable guess. I'm SURE that the
258 IRS & all the rest of the alphabet soup have more than enough info to make this a reasonably valid simultion!
259 	On the education bit: do any of you know where the "standard class size & classroom size came from? the answer may surprise
260 you (I can't vouch for its authenticity, but it seems to be right).
261 ________________________Leonard_________________________________
262 HAVE A MINT CONDITION 1970 VW BUS FOR SALE.  NEW CLUTCH AND PUT 
263 IN NEW ENGINE 6000 MILES AGO.  ASKING 1450 ON THE ADVICE OF THE 
264 MECHANIC WHO HAS GIVEN IT TLC FOR THE LAST 6 YEARS.  IF INTERESTED
265 CALL 297-xxxx AND ASK FOR STEVE, IF I'M NOT IN LEAVE A MESSAGE.
266 
267 EXIT
268 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
269 | I'm all for computer education, but I suspect that the schools should do    |
270 | more research than what they have been doing.                               |
271 |                                                                             |
272 | Tron, I think that built-in software is a good idea. The Lisa was built for |
273 | business, and as such, has the appropriate software built-in. If you don't  |
274 | like that software, you can always load in other programs from the disk.    |
275 |                                                                             |
276 | I don't have any comments about all those things such as taxes and other    |
277 | things except this:                                                         |
278 |                                                                             |
279 |      LEAVE ME OUT OF IT! ...........................................Pioneer |
280 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
281 
282 dear Pioneer and TRON...You are obviously a couple of complete techno-nerds!
283 After I finished reading your messages, I could hardly stop laughing! Come-
284 on...if you are going to leave messages on this system, please try to be
285 literate and coherent. Your messages were pitifully inadequate! Let's improve
286 shall we?
287 						Evan
288 
289 *******************************
290 ******************************
291 
292 Evan, please behave child.
293 
294 *************************who
295 	We outta have a rule that there will be only one PS per message,
296 and that it be no more than 5 lines long.
297 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$
298 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
299 HI MIKEY!
300 
301 P.S. ADAM TRENT HAS JUST POINTED OUT TO ME THAT YOU ARE THE SAME MIKE I
302 MET AT THE KAYPRO U.G. MEETING SELLING THE COPYLINK PACKAGE. HE WANTS TO
303 GET TOGETHER WITH ME AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF QUANTITY
304 DISCOUNT. HE SWEARS BY HIS EARLIER VERSION AND WANTS AN UPGRADE. I MAY
305 BE EDITING KUG NEWSLETTER AND WILL PUT NOTICE IN THAT ABOUT IT BUT ADAM 
306 NO LONGER HAS THE FIGURES (REMEMBER, I'M THE GUY WITH THE DOW JONES 
307 PROBLEM?). COULD YOU LEAVE NOTE HERE OR CALL ME AT NUMBER ON MY CARD PLEASE.
308                                 CHUCK
309 P.P.S. LUDDITE?!? MIKEY................MY FEELINGS
310 P.P.P.S. I REMEMBER WHEN PROGRAMMERS WERE ALL UNEMPLOYED. THE LABOR DEPART-
311 MENT IN 1969 HAD SPECIAL FUNDS SET ASIDE TO TRAIN PROGRAMMERS IN ANYTHING
312 ELSE. I WAS RETRAINED AS A LAB CHEMIST AND GOT BACK INTO PROGRAMING AND
313 CONSULTING LATER. MOST OF THE PROGRAMMERS IN THOSE DAYS GOT INTO SOMETHING
314 ELSE, CONTRIBUTING TO THE LATER SHORTAGE. THE REASON - CHANGES IN GOVERNMENT
315 AND TECHNOLOGY. IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN, TOO. BUT I'M MUCH SAFER NOW THAT I'M A
316 SMALL BUSINESS INSTEAD OF AN EMPLOYEE  OF A BIG ORGANIZATION. THIS IS ONE WAY
317 THE BIG CHANGE CAN TAKE PLACE - ECONOMIC DECENTRALIZATION (BIG TO SMALL).
318    I AGREE WITH YOU GUYS UP THERE ABOUT THE LEISURE AGE. MY FEELING IS THAT 
319 THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR AT LEAST 10,000 YEARS. OLD JOB DESCRIPTIONS
320 DISSAPPEAR AND NEW JOBS BECOME ACCEPTABLE, CONVENTIONAL CATAGORIES
321 OF 'WORK'. THAT IS, IF YOU THINK IT'S WORK, IT'S WORK. IF YOU POINTED
322 OUT AN ENGINEER TO A CRO-MAGNON MAN AND ASKED HIM WHAT THE ENGINEER WAS
323 DOING HE PROBABLY WOULD ONLY SEE HIM SITTING DOWN - NOTHING LIKE REAL
324 'WORK' ANYWAY. PEOPLE THINK OF NEW THINGS TO DO TO FILL TIME WITH AND
325 I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT THEY STILL WILL. WE CAN'T VISUALIZE EXACTLY WHAT
326 THESE THINGS WILL BE BECAUSE WE ARE NOW, NOT LATER.
327    THE TROUBLE IS TIMING. THE PROCESS OF ACCEPTING NEW CATAGORIES
328 OF ACTIVITY AS VALID (AND WORTH TRADING FOR) TAKES TIME. WHEN NEW
329 TECHNOLOGY OBSOLETES JOBS (CREATING ONLY A FEW IN PLACE OF THE ONES 
330 OBSOLETED) THE REST OF THE SLACK IS TAKEN UP BY THE INGENUITY OF PEOPLE
331 AT THINKING UP NEW WAYS OF FILLING TIME. AFTER WOMEN WERE NO LONGER 
332 NEEDED IN THE FIELD TO DIG POTATOES WITH STICKS, THE GUYS TOOK UP
333 THE NEW HIGH TECH JOBS IN HARVESTING AND WOMEN INVENTED THE NEW 
334 CATAGORY 'HOUSEWIFE' (MY WIFE JUST SAID THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE FACTS-
335 BUT ANYWAY....). IN THE PAST THESE TRANSITIONS TOOK MORE TIME THOUGH.
336    NOW THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS TO THAT. THE MIGRATION TO THE CITIES
337 BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY IN THE LATE 18TH AND EARLY 19TH CENTURIES
338 WAS RELATIVE TO THE SCALE OF THE CHANGE QUITE ABRUPT AND ENDED UP KILLING
339 MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. BUT ON THE WHOLE THE CHANGES OF THE PAST HAVE BEEN
340 QUITE SLOW COMPARED TO WHAT WE ARE NOW GOING THROUGH. IF WE ARE TO
341 AVOID REDUCE THE CURRENT REAL UNEMPLOYMENT LEVEL OF 20% IN THIS COUNTRY,
342 (AS MUCH AS 90% IN SOME COUNTRIES) WE MUST LEARN TO ACCELERATE THE
343 PROCESS OF NEW-JOB-INVENTION TO THE SAME PACE AS JOBS ARE OBSOLETED AT.
344 THE LONG RUN ISN'T MY CONCERN HERE AS MUCH AS THE PRESENT - THESE
345 PEOPLE ARE UNEMPLOYED *NOW* AND JUST IGNORING THE PROBLEM HASN'T
346 WORKED VERY WELL LATELY.
347    A THOUSAND FLOWERS MUST BLOOM HERE, AND SOMEONE HAS TO SOW THE FIELD.
348 PPPPPPPPPS.
349    FIRST PEOPLE UNDER 18 BECAME UNEMPLOYED. THEY SOLVED THAT BY PUTTING
350 THEM IN SCHOOL. THEN WOMEN BECAME UNEMPLOYED. THEN MINORITIES. THEN 
351 THE HANDICAPPED. THEN BUSINESS MAJORS. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL OF THESE
352 PEOPLE WAS LABOR SAVING TECHNOLOGY. THE CHILDREN ARE BETTER OFF THIS WAY 
353 PERHAPS, BUT I WOULD ARGUE ABOUT THE OTHERS. THESE PEOPLE WERE
354 EMPLOYED UNTILL THE INVENTION OF LABOR SAVING EQUIPMENT THAT PUT THEM
355 OUT OF WORK. NEW JOBS WERE NOT INVENTED FOR THEM BY ENGINEERS OR 
356 MANAGERS. THEIR  UNEMPLOYED STATUS WAS JUST REDEFINED. THE
357 WOMENS MOVEMENT AND MINORITY MOVEMENTS OF TODAY ARE STILL TRYING TO
358 PUT THIS BACK TOGETHER. THE PER CAPITA PERCENTAGE OF "EMPLOYED 
359 PEOPLE" HAS DEFINITELY GONE DOWN BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY!
360    AND IT WILL HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH CONCIOUSLY AND IN AN ORGANZED 
361 FASHION NOW. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH SOONER, I THINK, HAD NOT MOST OF
362 THE VICTIMS BEEN NOT-WHITE, NOT-MALE, OR NOT-21. (OR OVER MANDATORY 
363 RETIREMENT AGE).(OR MEMBERS OF THE THIRD WORLD)
364    WE ARE BENEFICIARIES OF THE SYSTEM AS IT EXISTS TODAY (AMONG THE
365 FEW) AND SHOULD BE EXTREMELY SENSITIVE TO THE DAMAGE THAT WE CAN
366 STILL CAUSE, EVEN (ESPECIALLY?) TO OURSELVES. (WHO KNOWS WHO'S NEXT).
367 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
368 EVAN, DONT BE SO RUDE!!!!!!!!
369 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Aug 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
370   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   19:50   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
371      Can a whisper be heard amidst a merrily rowdy crowd?  Will a tenative
372 smile be seen, though the Inn hums and bustles with enthusiastic conversing?
373 Such thoughts linger on the edge of her mind as she approaches the Inn...
374 Hesitation seizes her at the threshold, even as it always has, and she
375 pauses to observe what sort of people might be enjoying the Innkeeper's
376 hospitality.  Safe in the shadow of the towering oaken door, she probes
377 their eyes and listens to their voices, collectively booming out into the
378 dusk...gradually, unconsciously, she steps closer; a smile begins curling,
379 unnoticed by the debaters...the rich variety of thoughts being thrown about
380 begins drawing her even closer, just as the meaty aroma of a stew, combined
381 with the sight of butter melting on freshly-baked biscuits entices those
382 weary, hungry travelers that find refreshment in this ancient Inn.
383      O Adventurer, your weariness causes a mirage to waver before your
384 eyes--be not despondant!  You have indeed found the true Backwater Inn;
385 only the conversations have changed.  Look there, it is Grey who quietly
386 sips his sherris; listen, did you not hear the somber voice of Dave, also
387 known as Humbug; and never underestimate our gracious host, the Innkeeper.
388 Many others mingle in silence, but I can still sense their presence...
389 Tell me your name, for I have interest in tales of your wanderings--!
390 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     d     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
391 CHUCK: Call you a Luddite?! Heavens no! (A little judicial poking here
392 and there maybe.) I'm glad to see that you have continued your direction
393 of your debate though. (I am not impressed with someone who will shift
394 his speech to match whatever he thinks the person or group he is talking
395 to wants to hear. (Does that mean I am not impressed with polititions?,
396 YES)) As per COPYLINK, I would be happy to sell you a package! The list
397 price is $99.95, and the group discount is $59.97 (quantity 5) The next
398 discount level is at qty 10 and is $54.97.
399 ********* CISTOP MIKEY ****** 22 AUG 83 *************************************:
400 P.P.S. I would agree with you that the job market is shifting, and rapidly
401 (in comparision to the past), but I wonder if things are not starting to
402 take care of themselves (at least partially) the number of women in the 
403 'job' market is at an all time high (for this particular 'job' market). This
404 of course would have some effect on male workers (NO NO not that kind of 
405 an effect!) as the jobs were potentially alvailable for them ... or were they..
406 of course as you pointed out, these women in the job market are coming from
407 another 'job' market that was not accounted for in job figures. So how do
408 we handle those figures in reality? The information as to the number of
409 housewives could be obtained, but that is not what we need to know, we need
410 to know the effect all this will have on future job availability.
411 As for the coming age of leizure, I doubt that it will come to pass,
412 I don't think anybody could stand not being a productive part of society
413 (apart from the usual minority that you will always have.) Something
414 will be brought into being that can provide for this need. I don't think
415 we will see a return to the ditch digger, but I would not be surprised
416 to see the return of specific labour skills such as were found in those
417 building structures many years ago. since more tools and will be available,
418 and the material will be less of a concern in the cost. It would seem that
419 the increase in skilled labour in producing something will become important.
420 One thing I have found is that there are levels at which people will purchase
421 things, it has nothing to do with any special thing about a product, they
422 will simply look for the best item that will suit their needs within a 
423 specific price range. Never mind if something much cheaper can serve as well,
424 they are bound and determined to buy at the level they want because of
425 preceived value. Therefore if the cost of producing an item goes down because
426 the labour involved in producing it is drasticly cut, then is it not
427 feasible that someone will figure out a way to put that labour back in
428 so as to maintain the desired price range of the product?
429 **.***** CISTOP MIKEY (AM I STILL NOT DEBATING?) ***********************
430 Ahhh a fresh breeze wafts thru the Inn carrying with it a fragrence
431 of green. A presence is felt then a peel of laughter echos thru the
432 Inn, and all turn with similes aglow to see the wanderer returned.
433 Welcome to this most humble of Inns O gracious Lady of the dragons.
434 ************ CISTOP MIKEY YET STILL ****** 22 AUG 83 *****************
435 What is putting people out of work isn't just new machines replacing them, but
436 rather their inablity to move into the jobs created by the machines. In other
437 words, mostly lack of education. For example, a filing clerk is replaced by a
438 computer, even if the computer must be programmed, she is out of a job because
439 she can't program. The same thing is killing the US steel industry: the 
440 business has changed, and they haven't kept up. Production jobs are dying out,
441 replaced with machines; "service" jobs are beocoming much more common. There
442 may always be a janitor pushing a broom, likewise barber, gardner, artist, etc.
443 The new technology creates many new jobs: hifi salesman, programmer, 
444 TV cameraman,computer repairman, hazardous waste chemists, astronauts. But these
445 jobs are not for just anyone; they require special training. The trend seems
446 to be toward 2 classes: high tech workers & managers, and laborers who merely
447 run the machines. We need more computer education because everything will be
448 computerized in the future, the jobs that don't use them will be things like
449 garbage collector, but I suspect what we know as programmer will be obsolete
450 soon, too.
451 ////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\
452 	Yes, yes, I know.  But hasn't anyone on this sytem learned the value of
453 concise, to-the-point messages?  More than one person above has taken a 20-line
454 thought and turned it into a 60-line message.  Sure it's yours to do with what
455 you wish, but can't you concentrate your ideas just a bit?
456 =========================================================================
457 ********************************************************************************
458   THE PRINCE IS ROUSED FROM HIS ENNUI BY A FAMILIAR VOICE IN THE INN
459   THE BACKWATER DEBATING SOCIETY CAN HOLD ONE'S INTEREST ONLY SO LONG...
460   HE WELCOMES THE FAIR LADY'S RETURN FOR SHE HAS BEEN SORELY MISSED,
461   NOW MAYBE WE CAN RETURN TO SOME NONSENSICAL BUT ENJOYABLE FANTASY
462                                                DP
463 ********************************************************************************
464 
465 A small figure sits in a corner listening to the debaters. Occasionally, a comment
466 brings a smile to his lips, but it fades quickly.
467 	Suddenly there is a change... he seems to be trying NOT too look towards the
468 door. Can it be? He fears disapointment, but gathering his courage he risks a
469 glance. The shadows make it diffucult to be certain but.... yes! It is she! She 
470 has returned! Now his face is filled with joy as he drinks a silent toast
471 in anticipation of the tales to come.
472 	Welcome, Oh Ladye of Dragons.
473 .....................the apprentice..........................
474 OH NO ..... NOT AGAIN !
475 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
476 
477 
478 
479            a new day dawns on the backwater...........
480 
481                a hullo to dp and dl,
482 
483                                               Aaron of days past
484 
485 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
486 Evan,
487   Your comments are utterly rude and disgusting. You'Ve been
488 told this same thing by others, so if you don't have something
489 nice to say, don't say it!
490 
491 Pioneer,
492   I understand that, I think that the Apple computer corp.
493 vastly overcharge their computers. 1200 dollars for a 32k
494 apple without a d drive?!? They added that software just so
495 they could throw in an extra 2000 bucks in price. I wish they'D
496 get off this 6809 stuff, it's getting boring. Why not get a
497 higher vaule microprocessor like the Z80a or Z80b? I understand
498 that the Lisa has a M68000. A TRS-80 Model 16 can do 3 users at
499 once without modification. The Lisa can't. It should do as much
500 as the 16 for it's price! So, until then, GET WITH IT APPLE!
501 
502                                   TRON
503 I AGREE WITH YOU TRON
504 
505 ...........................................
506 To: Sysop Mikey
507 Fm: Stan the Man
508 Sj: Cleveland, OH
509  
510 Might come and see you guys sometime Thursday P.M....
511  
512 I understand Cleveland want to see me today...was unable to
513 make it as there were many chores to be done.....
514  
515 Later on...in 4 space,
516                 Stan the Man
517 
518 **************
519 I FIND MYSELF A LITTLE SUSPICIOUS. HOW MANY OF YOU GUYS HAVE TWO PSEUDONYMS.
520 I CAN'T BELIEVE ALL THESE MOON GAZERS JUST HOPPED OUT OF NOWHERE TODAY. 
521 SOME OF YOU MUST BE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WERE DOING THE SCHOOL DEBATE IS MY
522 CONCLUSION. SO ZAT'S HOKAY BUT YOU YUST VATCH OUT FOR DU TRANCENDANTLY
523 EVIL PROSE OF...................
524                                 BATPOOP THE MAGNIFICENT
525 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*****************((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()
526 BAD I WONDER WHY MOST OF THE JOBS YOU MENTIONED REQUIRE I.Q.s IN THE TOP
527 20 PERCENT. MOST PEOPLE AIN'T GONNA BE RETRAINED FOR THIS TYPE OF STUFF. 
528 SPECIALLY THEM OF US WHAT SAYS AIN'T A LOT.
529 
530 DEAR ========================,
531 10-4
532 
533 DEAR MIKEY, PRICE SOUNDS GOOD WILL CONTACT YOU HOPEFULLY AFTER NEXT KUG
534 MEETING.
535                              CHUCK
536 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
537 Hey you guys.  As I said before, I'm me.  I've always been me.  And I will
538 probably always be me.  And I'm not anyone else 'neither.  No pseudonyms.
539 Sure I'm me.  Who else would I be, anyway?  I'm very satisfied being myself.
540 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Me<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
541 If you are ME, then who am I????
542 
543 
544 ################################
545 I know who I am, and I know who You are.  How do I know?  When I close my
546 eyes, You all go away.  (it's so simple when you think it out)
547                                      the Phantom Glitch
548 H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-
549 
550 
551 HI THERE GLENN HOW'S IT GOING.
552 WE GOT A NEW TI-99/4A MINUS A MONITOR TH
553 
554                      ERIC SWENSON
555 E
556 X
557 ABORT
558 
559 
560 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
561 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
562 		*********************** ALTERED STATES *******************************
563 How can we look backwards into ourselves to understand what the true nature
564 of our being is.  What is the basis of the universe what is the true nature
565 of reality.  Keep looking inward inward inward inward inward inward.
566 Do we find the answer no one knows
567 How deep with in is the answer.
568 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ d: Me, somber?  Hmmm... *twinkle twinkle*   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
569  
570 
571 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
572 Yes, but don't look too far inward, or for too long.  You might get lost 
573 in your own ego, and find that you have lost the ability to perceive the 
574 universe as anything other than an extension of yourself.  I know that   
575 it can't be proven that the universe isn't just an extension of you, but 
576 that thought pattern still interferes with the ability to communicate.   
577 
578 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][]
579 HELLO
580  
581 JUST THOUGHT THAT  i7d saI'd say Hi. . . . . . 
582  
583    you guys are all wet (gals also).
584  
585 A wise man once told me.......search for, hunt for,
586 quest for, hunger for ........the meaning of life.
587  
588 The truth of it is hard to realiize.  The hope for it
589 is real.....can it be far off?
590  
591 #-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
592 THE ABOVE WAS PAID FOR BY THE 42 COMMITTEE. X*14 CALLING
593 #-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
594 I think I know why Mike changed the disk   . . . .
595 *********************************************************
596 To PAM:
597            I noticed that I have neglected to say hello and
598 welcome to you. Let me hereby rectify that. "Hello!" and
599 "Welcome!" I am sorry to have not said so earlier, but my
600 time here is short and must be grasped at odd moments, and
601 I am afraid that I have not given the attention that is
602 properly due to the customers of my most humble Inn.
603 In you comment from a previous disk - I thank you greatly
604 for such kind and gracious words. May your stay here be
605 pleasent and merry. (And for the sake of my customers and 
606 myself, may your vists here be frequent!)
607 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ***** 10:59PM ****** 24 AUG 83 ******
608 P.S. Would too much contemplation of your navel cause you
609 to turn into an orange? 
610 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
611 THANKS MIKEY!!! AND, WHILE YOU MIGHT NOT TURN INTO AN
612 ORANGE, YOU MIGHT BE ACCUSED OF BEING A FRUIT!!!!!!!!
613 
614 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][]
615 
616 P.S. ORANGE YOU GLAD I SAID THAT? 
617 
618 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
619 GROAN...... Say, if you were accused of being a fruit, and you were
620 a pilot, would that make you a ... fruit fly.....?
621 ****** CISTOP MIKEY? ****** 26 AUG 83 ***** 8:50AM *************
622 << chOKE COugh hACk >>  THat one was too bad for a groan...Good thing its    hidden away on disk B, 'cos otherwise the patrons
623 would be pelting you with rotten--oh, no...
624 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
625 Anyone know how to clean rotten tomatos off a disk?..
626 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 26 AUG 83 **************************
627 HAVE WE COME TO THE THREE STAGES OF THE "BRAVE NEW WORLD" WERE EVERYONE
628 HAS THERE PLACE IN THE WORLD AND A CERTAIN PURPOSE-WILL -YOU WILL BE
629 A WAFFER POLISHER AND YOU WILL DO YOUR JOB RIGHT-ALL THIS TALK ABOUT-NEW

