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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 *************************************************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
6                     PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is
10 privatly owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which
11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be
12 periodically purged of er messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
13 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the
14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the
15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace
16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
17 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
18 ************************************************************
19 
20 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
21 Hi there!!! this is a newcommer to
22 
23 I just spent 40 minutes or so read
24 (<-- thats 'reading') the messages
25 on disk B. This System is getting
26 More and more interesting as the days
27 go by. (years go by?). My name is
28 The Jedi and I just baught my very
29 own modem. So I'll be around to bother
30 everyone regularly. (MYUA HAHAHA...)
31 Thie by the way is the first time I
32 have every gotten this srewy system
33 to behave properly for me. It is a
34 pleasure. 
35 REMEBER: people who eat fish, hate 
36 TRS-80's. 
37 ]]]]]]]]]] The Jedi ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
38 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
39 Jedi: did you learn that from the farce?
40              Bo
41 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
42 -----------------------------------------------
43 I'S AN OSSIFER OF THE POLICE FARCE. GIVE UP NOW,
44 AND WE'LL TRY TO TAKE YOU ALIVE.
45 
46 SPIKE
47 ------------------------------------------------
48 PS. I DON'T GET DA FISH ONE.--------------------
49 
50 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
51 OK, gang. Last Reminder.  Inncounter tonight at 6:30 for those
52 hitting the tubes, 8:30 or so for those who just want to party.
53 address is 21845 SW York, about four streets off TV Hwy at 219th
54 in ALOHA (642-7837).  Succulents and Gustabilities abounding.
55 all ages and alter-egos welcome.  Even Yngvi, the nut.  Distimming
56 between consenting adults only.
57 
58 MCKANE...I AM BEING HAUNTED BY THE GHOST OF PHILLIPE.  CAN PRIMAL
59 BELCH THERAPY HELP? WILL YO BE THERE?
60 
61 
62 CONTREMON VALERIUS
63 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
64 Contremon Valerius:
65    Thanks for halping me clear up about who killed me. I wished he wasn't dead. 
66 It's so boring around here. How would you like it if you were left as a baby
67 for the Ninja to train? You'd probably like it even less if you were Chinese to
68 boot, not to mention the fact that you specialized in '57 Chevy sticks. And to
69 top all that off, I got killed by someone I didn't even see. It's just depressing
70 All these dead people want to do is sit here and count stars and things like that. The only person who I can talk to is the
71 warlord and all he wants to play is Go. Oh well, maybe I'll go look for Phillipe. He might want to leave some stick shifts
72 around and terrorize the living.
73                              The Ninja
74 ********************************************************************************
75           LEROY .............  I'M WATCHING YOU.......
76 
77 
78 
79 Sorry, can't make it to the party.  I'm sitting up with a sick freind, the
80 lost hebrew.  'Sallright, just a head cold.
81                                                 Yngvi
82 p.s. i am not a nut, just a little crazy.
83 >+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<
84 ********************************************************************
85 NINJA:  AW, ALRIGHT. I'M SORRY I PUCHED YOUR TICKET. PHILLIPE STILL
86 HAS ONE GET OUT OF HEAVEN FREE CARD, IF YOU CAN GET IT FROM HIM YOU
87 CAN USE IT.
88 
89 CONTREMON
90 ***************************************************************************
91 Phillipe...Phillipe...Where are you 
92 Phillipe?(Who set this thing to 40 columns?) I want to borrow your card 
93 Phillipe. Phillipe, I'm getting bored here Phillipe. Where's the card 
94 Phillipe?
95                             The Ninja
96 ********************************************************************************
97 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
98 EVOLUTION AND PASSION!
99 BRITISH COLUMNIST CHRISTOPHER BOOKER TAKES  A NUETRAL POSITION IN THE
100 CREATIPON-EVOLUTION CONTROVERSY. RECENTLY HE COMMENTED ON THE "PASSION"
101 HE HAS OBSERVED ON BOTH SIDES. "THE CREATIONISTS PASSIONATELY DENY THAT
102 THERE WAS ANY SUCH THING AS EVOLUTION," HE WROTE IN HIS "SATURDAY COLUMN"
103 FOR LONDONS DAILY TELEGRAPH.  SO HE REASONED THAT A THINKING PERSON MIGHT
104 "TURN TO THE SCIENTIFIC WORLD FOR  A MORE PLAUSIBLE , RATIONALLY ARGUED
105 EX[PLANATION--ONLY TO FIND AN EQUAL DISPLAY OF PASION BEHINDS EVERY KIND
106 OF 'EVOLUTIONIST' POSITION, MANY OF THEM QUITE INCOMPATIBLE WITH ONE 
107 ANOTHER."  
"THE TROUBLE IS THAT, FOR ALL THE SOPHISTICATION IT HAS
108 GATHERED FROM RESEARCH INTO MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, DARWINIAN 'NATURAL SELEC-
109 TION' IS JUST A THEORY," BOOKER OBSERVED, "AND FURTHERMORE, IT IS A THEORY
110 RIDDLED WITH THE MOST ENORMOUS HOLES AND QUESTION MARKS."
BOOKER ILLUSTRATED
111 WITH THE PROBLEM OF "'JUMPS' IN THE EVOLUTIONARY LADDER...SUCH AS THE EMER-
112 GENCE OF THE EYE, OR OF ALL THE FACTORS WHICH DISTINGUISH BIRDS FROM EVERY
113 OTHER KIND OF CREATURE."  HE NOTED THAT EVEN THE LATEST THEORY, WHICH SUG-
114 GESTS RELATIVELY LARGE EVOLUTIONARY JUMPS AMOUNG ISOLATED GROUPINGS, MUST
115 ADMIT TO "*SOME* INTERMEDIATE STAGE, OF A CREATURE LUMBERED WITH A MEMBRANE
116 AS YET INSUFFICIENTLY DEVELOPED TO ENABLE IT TO FLY, WHILE SO RETARDING THE
117 FORMER AGILITY...THAT IT WOULD HAVE HINDERED RATHER THAN AIDED SURVIVAL."
118 THE COLUMNIST THEN CHARGED:
"THE MORE ORTHODOX DARWINIANS NOT ONLY MANAAGE
119 NOT TO 'SEE' THE IMPORTANTCE OF SUCH QUESTIONS.  REVEALINGLY THE SIMPLY
120 FALL BACK WITH REDOUBLED FERVOUR ON MERE DOGMATIC ASSERTIONS, AND TAKE
121 REFUGE YET AGAIN IN THOSE ONE OR TWO FAVOURITE CASE-HISTORIES...WHICH SEEM
122 TO CONFIRM THEM IN THEIR COMFORTABLE FAITH, WHILE LEAVING ALL THE REALLY
123 INTERESTING QUESTION TOTALLY UNANSWERED.
"THE KEY WORD IS 'FAITH.'  TO THE
124 REASONABLY DETACHED OBSERVER THERE IS NOTHING MORE OBVIOUS ABOUT DARWINIANS,
125 IN ALL THEIR VARIETIES AND SECTS, THAN THAT ULTIMATELY THEY ARE JSUT AS 
126 MUCH RESTING THEIR ACCOUNT OF THE ORIGINS AND EVOLUTION OF LIFE ON SHEER
127 FAITH AND UNSUBSTANTIATED BELIEF AS THE 'CREATIONISTS' THEY SO HOTLY DERIDE.
128 "THEIR 'MYTH' IS ONE WHICH ENABLES THEM TO SEE THE WHOLE MYSTERY OF LIFE
129 AS THE PRODUCT OF BLIND, MECHANISTIC FORCES WITHOUT ANY GUIDING 'MIND' OR
130 'PURPOSE'--AND THAT THEREFORE WE CAN ENJOY OUR PLACE AS THE TRIUMPHANT END-
131 PRODUCT OF THIS PROCESS WITHOUT FEELING THAT WE 'OWE IT TO ANYONE.'  
132 COMFORTING THIS MAY BE--BUT THERE IS NOTHING IN THE STRICTEST SENSE 
133 'SCIENTIFIC' ABOUT THIS SET OF BELIEFS"
134 ANY BITES? I'M WAITING.........
135 !?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!??
138 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
139 Aiiiiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhh (screeech)
140 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% A "Detached" (read nauseous) observer %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
141 P.S. The only truley detached observer is a disembodied head
142 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Mr. Tim %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
143 ***AND HE USUALLY ISN'T LOOKING************************************CV
144 
145 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6
146 OK, deborah, I'll bite.  The problem is evidence.  I'm willing to look
147 at anything.  Even physics is lies, but they're the best lies we can
148 come up with at the moment, and the seem to do the job.  This is the
149 underlying premis behind the "Scientific Method".  Faith has nothing
150 to do with it.  Sure there may be gaps.  I don't know how black holes
151 (if they exist) should work.  But there is a greater "Fit" of theory
152 to observed fact in the evolutionary MODEL than there is in the
153 creationist.  Whenever the balance of the switches, so will scientists.
154 This holds true for every theory from speed of light limits to 
155 nuclear particles.  We go with the best lie we can find, until someont
156 comes up with a better one.
157 
158 GENERAL MACAIBO
159 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6
160 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
161 THE MAIN POINT IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE, YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING.
162 EVEN IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE THE RELIGIOUS VIEW, YOU STILL HAVE
163 "FAITH IN SOMETHING" .  DO YOU HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF?
164                      BO
165 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
166 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
167 deborha,you say that the key word is "FAITH" faith in what? a supreme being
168 that controls everything? or something that at least s SEEMS posible like
169 the evolutionary theorys? what do YOU believe in?
170 90% of my friensds follow some religion,mostly christian,one b'hai (hello a!)
171 and a few rajneesh.aALL insist that there religion is the correct one.
172 as for my position on the issue,the # for american athiests is 771-xxxx,give
174 it a call sometime.if you want to argue theology i am,
177 			The Man in Gray
179 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
180 *************************************************
181 GENERAL: IF YOU WERE TO READ WHAT YOU WROTE FROM A DETACHED POINT OF VIEW,
182 YOU WOULD FIND THAT IT EXIBITED ALL OF THE QUALITIES OF 'FAITH' THAT HAS
183 BEEN DISCUSED, YOUR 'FAITH' IS NOT IN THE DETAILED ACOUNTING OF FACTS
184 THAT ARE USED TO SUPPORT THE THEORIES YOU BELIEVE, BUT RATHER THE VERY
185 BASE OF CONCEPTS THAT YOU START FROM, THAT SOMEHOW THE CHAOS THAT THIS
186 UNIVERSE STARTED FROM HAS BY PURE RANDOM CHANCE ORDERED ITSELF INTO THIS
187 THING WE CALL LIFE. I AM SOMEWHAT SCEPTICAL OF THIS VIEW POINT JUST AS
188 I AM SCEPTICAL THAT SOME SUPREME BEING WAVED HIS (HER?) MAGIC WAND AND
189 IT ALL APPEARED READY MADE ONE DAY. I FEEL THE ANSWER IS SOMEWHERE IN 
190 THE MIDDLE OF THESE TWO EXTREMES. I MIGHT POINT OUT THAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE
191 BASED ON SOME BASIC THINGS THAT YOU HAVE 'FAITH' IN AND YOU BUILD YOUR
192 VEIW OF THE WORLD BASED ON THESE BELIEFS, THEY ARE USUALLY NOT 'PROVABLE'
193 IN A SPECIFIC SENSE OTHER THEN BY REFERING TO THEMSELVES FOR PROOF.
194 THE MOST COMMON 'PROOF' SITED IS OBSERVATION, OR COMMON SENSE. YET YOU
195 WILL FIND THESE VERY SAME 'PROOFS' USED IN RELIGON AS WELL, YOU DO NOT ACCEPT
196 THIER 'PROOFS' BECAUSE YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THIER CONCEPTUAL BASED, AND THEY 
197 DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR 'PROOFS' FOR THE VERY SAME REASON. THIS IS WHY SUCH
198 DISCUSSIONS NEVER GET ANYWHERE. HOWEVER DO NOT FOOL YOURSELF IN TO THINKING
199 THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE FAITH IN SOMETHING, YOU DO, IT IS YOUR SCEINTIFIC
200 METHODE. EVERY MUCH OF A FAITH AS IS RELIGON. DO NOT MISTAKENLY IDENTIFY
201 FANATISISM OR BELIEF IN A SUPREME BEING AS THE ONLY DEFINITION OF FAITH.
202 FAITH IS BELIEVING THAT THE WORLD IS AND WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE IN 
203 THE WAY THAT YOU SEE IT THRU YOUR OWN EYES NOTHING MORE.
204 **************** SNOT NOSE *******************************************
205 P.S. TRUE THAT THE PRIMAL FART IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO CONTROL THE
206 TONE OF, BUT THEN WHAT FUN IS A GOOD CULT IF EVERYBODY CAN DO YOUR
207 THING? AFTERALL WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT WE ARE BETTER THEN
208 THOSE SNIVELING HEATHENS SOMEHOW!
209 *********************************************************************
210 ????????????????????????????????????????
211 s.n. leave the !"#$%&'() line length at 
212 80 chars,o.k.? and scarf some scopalimin
213 dirivitives and wipe that stuff off of
214 your nose!!
215 i beg to differ on the issue of tonal
216 quality,not many people can snort a 
217 couple of letres of pepsi and live
218 sence a primal belch can takee a long
219 time to happen this leaves more judgeing
220 time for the tone/duration/# of people 
221 affected/etc.. also to consider is the 
222 cost/noise ratio,2 leters of coke can be
223 had for .50 + .20 dep.2 cans of hormell
224 extra strenth cchile costs up to 4* that
225 much. the cost of initing new mambers of
226 your cult would be cut 75%
227 also consider the fermentation time,
228 primal belch vs. primal fart.
229 
230 primal belches take less then 5 miniuts 
231 to manufacture(personal experimentation)
232 
233 the primal fart must wait for the action
234 of varius enzymes/microbes/acids/etc.. 
235 to fully mature.therefor the time spent
236 in initing new cult members.
237 75% better in every way,the doctor leroy
238 primal belch wins!!(and it is'nt even 
239 habit forming/cancer causing) 
240 
241 
242 			The Man in Gray
243 ????????????????????????????????????????
244 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
245      As  darkness  began to close down of the  forbiding  forest, 
246 Tarn  and  Emer paused by a friendly looking tree to rest a  bit.  
247 Clasping her hand between his own,  he tells her, "I just want to 
248 thank you for coming to rescue me,  but are you sure you can find 
249 the way back out again?"  Sighing Tarn sits back against the tree 
250 and  relaxes  as he can.   In only a moment the  days  adventures 
251 takes its toll,  and Tarn nods off.   Sometime later he awakes to 
252 find  Emer  gone.   Panic stricken Tarn peers about but  Emer  is 
253 nowhere to be found.   Falling back against the tree he wraps his 
254 cloak  about  him  and hugs his knees to his breast trembling  in
255 fear that she has abandoned him.
256                             * Tarn *                             
257 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
258 ************************************************
259 DEAR GRAY PERSON: SURE IT IS HABIT FORMING, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY
260 PUT THE CAFFINE IN THAT STUFF! AS FOR CANCER CAUSING, YOU SHOULD 
261 SEE THE LAB REPORTS ON SOFTDRINK! AFTER FORCE FEEDING RATS 20 GAL
262 OF THE STUFF A DAY FOR 4 YEARS, THE RATS DIED. OF COURSE THERE
263 HAS BEEN SOME ARGUMENT THAT THEY DIED BY DROWNING, BUT THAT IS
264 JUST TALK BY THE TECHNICIANS WHO PERFORMED THE TESTS, AND THEY 
265 DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. 
266 BESIDES, I RUN A CLASS OUTFIT. NONE OF THAT CHEAP STUFF HERE WE
267 PAY UPTO $1.50 FOR A CAN OF REAL GOOD BURNING HOT CCHILI. SURE
268 IT TAKES LONGER FOR THE URGE TO DEVELOPE, BUT THE RESULTING
269 COMFORT IS MORE THEN WORTH THE WAIT. AND YOU CAN'T DESTROY AS
270 MANY WITH THE SIMPLE PRIMAL BELCH AS YOU CAN WITH THE PRIMAL FART!
271 WHY IT'S AMAZING, IN SOME STATES THEY REQUIRE US TO WEAR MUFFLERS.
272 ***************** SNOT NOSE *******************************************
273 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
274 snot nose,living causes cancer,and as for addiction,well,i've been drinking
275 coke/pepsi for 10 years now and i'me not addicted yet!
276 offical flatulance rating guide.
277 tonal quality-tonal quality shall be on a 0-10 pt. scale
278 
279 durration-duration shall be awarded on a 0-10 pt scale with 2 pt. deductions for
280 a start/stop(consistancy is a must!!)
281 volume-audio volume is a prime consideration 0-15 pts.a special 10 pts. is 
282 awarded for exceding the decible level of an avarage heavy metal concert.
283 volume-gas volume ,xard to measure w/o sophisticated devices or uncomfortable
284 devices attached to the pf'er(mufflers)therefor this catagory is only used in 
285 final round competition.
286 # of people affected-1 point for each member of the general public that must
287 
288 show signs of reaction.
289 
290 if any p.f. raises blisters on unprotected skin or corrrodes metal,20 pts. 
291 
292 if any solid or semi-solid matter is expeled during a p.f. no pts. are awarded.
293 
294 do you stay up late at night or what,last mess.i typed was at 1:30 a.m. then 
295 you replyed by 2:30. if you answer this then i may have to become good 
296 friends with you!
297 
298 ?????			The Man in Gray
299 
300 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
301 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
303 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  *.*  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
304 ... ALAS!!! the dragon lady seems to have gone between again
305     perhaps to another time and/or place
306 ... just a glimpse of flashing wings in sunlight & a whispering of sound
307   
308   
309      Nila knew exactly what place it was where East began. In
310      fact, every morning of her life she had seen the red sun
311      rise over the enchanted hills and she knew that where the
312      sun rose was the east. Though she had never before traveled
313      away from the palace, she knew from reports that the
314      enchanted hills were less than a day's journey on foot.
315      She would go to the place where East began, find Truth,
316      spend the night, and return to her accustomed life the
317      next day. Now you should know that there is nothing at all
318      hazardous in Nila's kingdom. It never occurred to her that 
319      she might become cold or hungry or threatened in any way.
320      It was a very nice kingdom indeed!
321   
322      She set out on her journey the very next morning, even 
323      before dawn. The streets of the city were freshly dewed
324      and the fruit and flower markets were just setting out
325      their days wares. It was a happy and cheerful time and
326      Nila's spirits were high as she watched the spires of the
327      city dwindle behind her. She marked her direction by the
328      rising sun in front and her shadow behind. At noon when
329      there was neither rising sun nor shadow for direction, she
330      stopped to refresh herself at the river bank. She sat on a
331      warm boulder and watched the flashing golden shapes of fish 
332      beneath the surface. For her lunch she picked a luscious 
333      mango from a nearby tree and drank the cool water of the
334      river itself. Then she curled up for a nap in the shade.
335      wrapping herself in her beautiful cloak of iridescent 
336      bird's feathers. For a few moment she watched the sunlight
337      darting through the leaves in the little glade. It's
338      looking for the shade she thought dreamily and giggled.
339      How silly, because where the sunshine is the shade is not.
340      She giggled again but this time it was in her sleep.
341   
342      She did not sleep long. "Just a proper little nap", her
343      father used to say. When she awoke she found that there
344      was a little skiff moored to the bank right in front of 
345      her. How lovely she thought. Someone has left this boat
346      for me to ferry myself across the river. How kind the
347      people are in my kingdom. As she pulled the little skiff
348      across the gently flowing water, she noticed a roughly
349      written note pinned to a seat. It said:
350      "When you have crossed the river, leave the boat behind."
351      "Well now!", she said aloud, "How foolish do they think
352      I am? I certainly wouldn't try to carry it with me."
353      She laughed at the thought of it and just then she reached
354      the other shore. Nila moored the little skiff securely for
355      the next traveller and went on her way in the pleasant
356      afternoon. She watched her shadow lengthen ahead of her,
357      pointing to the place where east began. She found it both
358      amusing and exciting to know that just by following her own
359      shadow she would eventually arrive at Truth. When the sun
360      was in front of her, it was just the opposite of course.
361 
362 
363    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  ...  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
364   
365 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
366 MAN IN GREY:  WHEN I SAY FAITH I MEAN "ALLEGIANCE TO DUTY OR A PERSON,
367 LOYALTY, CONFIDENCE, A SYSTEM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS." NO MORE NO LESS.
368 
369 I'M JUST THE TYPE OF PERSON THAT LIKES A GOOD STIMULATING DISCUSSION,
370 AND THEREFORE ON OCCASION I TRY TO START ONE. I AM A PEOPLE LOVER, AND
371 ENJOY ALL OPINIONS.
372 P.S. I LIKE YOUR STYLE
373 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
374 !(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)+!)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+(*)!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)
375 WHEW! FOR THE MOST PART.... THANK GOD (OR WHOEVER)... BACKWATER IS ALMOST
376 BACK TO NORMAL. I SURE MISS THOSE DEBATES! AND ALL OF THE SR. MEMEBERS ARE
377 GREAT TO HEAR. BUT.. WHERE ARE THEY? I HAVEN'T SEEN HROTHGAR OR AARON OR
378 ANYONE ON HERE LATELY. WHERE DID EVERYONE GO??? AND DID DOM EVER RETURN? I 
379 AM BACK TO STAY, AS LONG AS THE FOREM REMAINS INTERESTING.
380 
381  
382 !(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+:JODY:+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!(*)!+!
383 ########################################
384 Deborah: Well at long last you have returned to the Inn in a form that is
385 sorely missed. I too, miss the debates, but the current one is just a rehash
386 of past encounters. The question is not ''FAITH' as that is just a word that
387 has many meanings. I for one resent the 'church' usurping the use of the 
388 word for their own exclusive use.
389 All people have faith. I have it when I go to start my car in the morning
390 but it doesn't depend on some ridiculous supreme being, it depends on how 
391 well I did the work on my car, or anything else. In other words I have
392 faith in the only thing that counts and that is myself. All that I do in
393 this mortality I, and nothing else is accountable for. Your brand of faith
394 is just a cop-out to life and the inability to manage for yourself, like
395 a child that has to ask it's parents for permission to do anything. That
396 is the way I see the religion question, no mater what the denomination. From
397 Christian to Shinto, Buddhist to Rajneeshi they are all the same. Just
398 out there to controll your actions through Brain-washing you into submission
399 As I have said before, if we were to do away with ALL!!! religions and
400 started living our own lives we could probably cut the incidedence of war
401 in half or better. Might even do away with it alltogether.
402 
403 
404 #################C.Y.M.##############################1/29/84 10:43am########
405 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
406 General:
407      If you look at the evolutionary and the creationary theories you will
408 see that it is impossible to "prove" either one of them. However, there is
409 not a scrap of evidence that supports the theory of evolution. In fact, 
410 I think that some pther scientific theories are somewhat hazy and seem to
411 be made in order to halp explain evolution. Creation, on the other hand, 
412 will predict the facts and explains the facts whether you believe in it or
413 not. It is similar to belief in objects being made up of atoms. You don't
414 have to believe in it, but if you are a chemist it sure helps. (I do believe
415 in atoms) Another thing, evolution takes so much time. For some reason,
416 our society seems to believe that this planet is billons of years old. In
417 fact, there is no evidence to support this, and there is evidence to refute
418 this. 
419                               Dr. Buck
420 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
421 OK, SO LET'S HEAR SOME OF THAT EVIDENCE. BY THE WAY, THERE IS INDEED MUCH
422 EVIDENCE SUPPORTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. DARWIN HIMSELF PRESENTED NUMBEROUS
423 POINTS SUPPORTING IT. INDEED IT WAS ONLY AFTER MUCH WORK IN THE AREA THAT
424 HE CAME TO THE CONCLUSIONS HE DID AS THE ONLY EXPLAINATION TO WHAT HE
425 OBSERVED. AS FAR AS EVOLUTION TAKING TIME, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. ADMITTEDLY
426 SOME SCIENTISTS FEVERENTLY BELEIVE THAT IT IS ALL THROUGH THE SLOW PAINFULL
427 PROCESS OF TIME, EVEN AS THEY TALK ABOUT SUCH THINGS AS THE ALMOST OVERNIGHT
428 DISAPPEARANCE OF CERTAIN SPECIES. EVOLUTION CAN TAKE GREAT STRIDES IN SHORT
429 PERIODS OF TIME WHEN THE ENVIORMENT CHANGES RADICALY. THIS WAS ONE 
430 OBSERVATION THAT DARWIN HAD AND INDEED WAS ONE OF THE PRIME OBSERVATIONS
431 WHICH CAUSED HIM TO FORMULATE HIS THEORY. AS FAR AS HOW OLD THE UNIVERSE 
432 IS, THAT IS ENTIRLY IRRELIVENT. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SPECIFIC REFFERENCE
433 TO AGE ANYPLACE IN THE BIBLE OR MOST OTHER RELIGOUS BOOKS. TRUE THAT 
434 SOME HIGH MUCKETY MUCKS HAVE MADE SOME STATMENTS IN THAT REGARD ON SOME
435 RATHER FLIMSY EVIDENCE, BUT THAT HARDLY IS PROOF ENOUGH TO COUNTER THE
436 SCIENTIFIC PROOFS TO THE CONTRARY. ALSO YOU SHOULD REMEMBER THAT TO GOD
437 TIME IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE. THOUGH THE BIBLE SAYS HE CREATED THE EARTH
438 IN 6 DAYS, WHO IS TO SAY WHAT A DAY IS TO GOD. INDEED IT EVEN STATES
439 ELSE WHERE THAT TO GOD A DAYS WORK HAS NO RELATION TO OUR DEFINED DAY.
440 AND WHILE I'M ON THE SUBJECT, WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO STICK TO SUCH NARROW
441 LITTLE RULES? THERE IS NOTHING THAT COUNTERS THAT HE (SHE?) COULD NOT
442 HAVE CREATED THE UNIVERSE BY THE VERY MEANS THAT SCIENTISTS CURRENTLY
443 TALK. IN FACT IF YOU WERE TO READ GENISIS CLOSLY AND WITH AN OPEN MIND
444 THE DESCRIPTION (ASSUMING YOU CAN DISCARD YOUR NAROW CONCEPT OF TIME)
445 WOULD SHOW A REMARKABLE SIMULARITY. I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THE BIG-
446 BANG THEORY AS RELATED TO ENLIGHTENED RELIGOUS BELIEFS, ASSUMING YOU
447 CAN ACCEPT NEW WAYS OF VIEWING THINGS. THE ONLY REAL QUESTION IS NOT
448 HOW LONG IT TOOK TO GET WHERE WE ARE, OR WETHER SOME HAIRY THUNDERER
449 DID IT WITH HIS OWN MIGHTY HANDS, BUT RATHER HOW DID IT COME INTO
450 EXISTANCE TO BEGIN WITH. WHAT WAS THERE BEFORE THE UNIVERSE EXISTED?
451 AND HOW DID THOSE RULES THAT IT SEEMS TO OPERATE UNDER COME INTO BEING?
452 THIS STUFF YOU SPEAK OF IS PENNY-ANNY IN COMPARISION. YOU WANT TO
453 TALK ABOUT COP-OUTS, TO JUST SAY THAT SOME BIG COSMIC MUFFIN DID IT
454 ALL ONE WEEK CAUSE IT WAS BORED TO DEATH AND THERE IS NO FURTHER 
455 NEED TO DISCUSS IT, IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST COP-OUTS I HAVE EVER SEEN.
456 ********************* SNOT NOSE **********************************
457 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
458 That's a very good point to consider. I'm not sure if I like your reference
459 of "religious enlightenment", though.  Just because you choose to believe
460 in creation instead of evolution dosen't make you better than anyone
461 else. And I also feel that both sides should take a breather and at
462 least consider the others point of view.  If you take a good look at
463 the way genesis decribes creation, as Snot Nose pointed out, it is a
464 good description of the way the scientists belive it happened, just
465 on a different time scale as we understand.
466     Also remember, if there is a God (and I believe there is), then he
467 was the one who made the rules in the first place, and he could
468 probably change them just as easily at any time he wishes. Who's to
469 say both sides aren't right?
470                 Bo
471 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
472 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
473   I would like to see just one example of a spieces becoming another spieces
474 . Just one. Does any one out there have but one example? As for time, I
475 think that that is probably a different ball game all together, but I do
476 have some evidence and if you want to see it I'll show it but I'm am getting
477 tire of hunting and pecking so I am going to go.
478                              Dr. Buck
479 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
480 P.S. I vote for the fart. The methane can be recycled.
481 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
482 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
483 jody,aaron is still around on other boards.i don't think that he was into 
484 multi-author stories,i'll send him a message stateing that a small argument
485 is once again going on.i have no idea who 
486 hrothgar is so i can not say,maby aaron can.
487 
488 if we could tap jerry falwell and his immoral minority we would have all the
489 ch4(methane) we needed,therefor no need for the primal fart.
490 dr.buck,find somboebody with an apple II and boot "typing tutor" if you need
491 a copy i can send you one,it's fast easy and painless.
492 gotta go,lunch is calling(read burning).
493 			The Man in Gray
494 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
495 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!
496 WELL IT SEEMS LIKE WE TOUCHED ON THIS ONE SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, BUT NEVER
497 GOT DOWN TO BRASS TACKS. HERE'S A COUPLE. SOMEONE STATED THAT YOU CANNOT
498 FIND A SPECIFIC REFERENCE IN THE BIBLE AS TO THE AGE OF EARTH. IF YOU'RE
499 LOOKING FOR A SPECIFIC NUMBER LIKE 1,234,567,541 YEARS, YOU'RE RIGHT, 
500 THERE'S NOT ONE. BUT THE BIBLE ISN'T ABOUT THE BEGINNING OF THE PLANET,
501 OR THE UNIVERSE FOR THAT MATTER. THE BIG BANG THEORY OR ANY OTHER FOR
502 THAT MATTER COULD BE TRUE. BUT WE CAN FIND OUT THE LENGTH OF EACH 
503 CREATIVE DAY. AS WAS ALSO PREVIOUSLY STATED THE CREATION ACCOUNT AGREES
504 WITH PROVED SCIENCE, IN THE ORDER OF CREATION. MORE ON THIS LATER, BUT
505 AS TO THE LENGTH OF THE CREATIVE DAYS, CONSIDER: IN THE BIBLE, AND EVEN 
506 TODAY IN EVERYDAY SPEECH, "DAY" CAN MEAN SIMPLY A PERIOD OF TIME. FOR
507 INSTANCE IN THE GENESIS ACCOUNT, AFTER LISTING AND DESCRIBING EACH INDI-
508 VIDUAL CREATIVE DAY, IT SAYS IN GENESIS 2:4, "THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS
509 OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH WHEN THEY WERE CREATED, IN THE DAY THAT
510 THE LORD GOD MADE THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS, ". THIS SHOWS THAT THE PRE-
511 VIOUS DAYS DESCRIBED COVERED GENERATIONS, AND YET THE WHOLE THING IS
512 LUMPED TOGETHER AS ONE. JUST AS WE WOULD SAY MY FATHERS DAY, OR IN MY
513 DAY, ETC. 
514 FURTHER A DAY WITH GOD CAN BE A LONG TIME. SURELY A SUPREME BEING 
515 WOULD BE BOUNDED BY SOMETHING HE CREATED. THEREFORE IN PSALMS 90:4,
516 IT SAYS," FOR ATHOUSAND YEARS ARE TO YOUR EYES LIKE A YESTERDAY WHEN
517 IT IS GOING BY
518 OR A WATCH IN THE NIGHT." SO IT COULD BE 1,000 YEARS OR 4 HOURS, WHICH
519 IS ABOUT THE LENGTH OF A WATCH. ALSO 2 PETER 3:8 SAYS, "BUT DO NOT YOU 
520 IGNORE THIS, DEAR FRIENDS, THAT WITH THE LORD ONE DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND,
521 YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS LIKE ONE DAY."
522 NOW, IF YOU EXAMINE THE FIRST CHAPTER OF GENESIS, YOU WILL FIND THAT AT
523 THE CONCLUSION OF EACH CREATIVE DAY THE PHRASE ".....AND THERE CAME TO 
524 BE EVENING AND THERE CAME TO BE MORNING, THE FIRST DAY." THAT'S FROM 
525 VERSE 5. VERSE 8 IS THE SECOND DAY, VERSE 13 IS THE THIRD DAY, VERSE 19
526 THE FOURTH, VERSE 23 THE FIFTH, AND VERSE 31 THE SIXTH. BUT NOWHERE IN
527 THE GENESIS ACCOUNT IS THE SEVENTH,  WHICH IS THE REST DAY, ENDED. IN 
528 FACT SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS LATER IN THE BOOK OF HEBREWS CHAPTER 4:3-11
529 WE FIND THAT IT WAS STILL CONTINUEING. AND IF WE CARRY THAT A LITTLE BIT
530 FARTHER IN THE FINAL BOOK, REVELATION, WE FIND THAT THE REST DAY INCLUDES
531 THE TIME PERIOD REFERED TO IN THE BIBLE AS THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN OF
532 CHRIST.
533 ANYHEY, THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE MIS-
534 TAKEN POPULAR IDEA OF 24 HOUR CREATIVE DAYS, THEY WERE THOUSANDS OF YEARS
535 LONG.
536 ALSO SOMEONE MENTIONED THAT DARWIN HAD GOOD ARGUMENTS FOR EVOLUTION. BUT
537 DID Y'ALL KNOW THAT HE TOO, ACKNOWLEDGED THAT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE
538 SOMEONE OR SOMETHING GOT THE BALL ROLLING. IN HIS BOOK, "THE ORIGIN OF 
539 SPECIES", DARWIN SAID, "HAVING BEEN ORIGINALLY BREATHED BY THE CREATOR
540 INTO A FEW FORM OR INTO ONE." PAGE 450, MENTOR EDITION.
541 HE REALIZED THAT DESIGN REQUIRES A DESIGNER. WHEW, I"M BUSHED AFTER ALL
542 THAT. HOPE IT MAKES SOME SENSE. TSK, TSK, CYM, THIS RESORTING TO NAME
543 CALLING. WE'RE ALL ALLOWED OUR OWN CHOICE OF OPINIONS YOU KNOW.
544 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
545 ===================================================================
546 
547 DEBORAH:
548     AS FOR THE LENGTH OF A CREATIVE DAY IT WOULD HAVE TO BE MILLIONS OF 
549 OYEARS LONG, NOT THOUSANDS. AND AS FOR EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION THERE IS 
550 PLENTY: I HAVE BEEN COLLECTING FOSSILS FOR YEARS, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE AGE
551 OF FORMATIONS AND THE FOSSILS IN THEM, YOU FIND THE SECESSION OF SPECIES
552 IS VERY CLEAR. I'M NOT SAYING THAT A SUPREME BEING DIDN'T HAVE A HAND IN
553 THIS, BUT I'M NOT SAYING ONE DID EITHER. (NOTE: 'SUPREME BEING' NOT 'GOD'
554 OR 'ALLAH' OR SOMTHING LIKE THAT, I DON'T BELIVE IN A GOD AS MOST 
555 ORGANIZED RELIGIONS SAY THERE IS, THE DESCRIPTIONS TEND TO BE TO 
556 COVEINIENT, AND I HAVE READ MOST OF THE BIBLE.)
557                             
558                                RESPECTFULLY,
559                                         EVAN
560  ====================================================================
561 I NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET MY LOWER CASE WORKING OVER
562 THIS CRAZY MODEM.
563  ====================================================================
564 
565    IT'S NOT THE QUALITY OF TYPING THAT COUNTS, BUT WHAT IS BEING SAID.
566 ========================================================================
567 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
568 evan,i was not commenting on the style of type only that ones typing speed 
569 can be improved so as to be able to type more and not tire as fast.
570 as to the discussion at hand i am becoming hopelessly outclassed in that
571 i have not read much in the bible/koran/whatever.i do however enjoy the 
572 discusion.in a previous mess. i used the word argument,a friend stated that
573 "arguments are tradeing of ignorance,discussions tradeing of knowledge"
574 i agree,so lets keep the name calling to a bare minimum.
575 i wish to thank deborah for the "style" complement also.
576 
577 			The Man in Gray
578 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
579 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
580 EVAN: MILLIONS OF YEARS. I WOULD BE VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT PROOF YOU
581 RELY ON FOR THAT FIGURE. DO YOU IN FACT BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE CREATIVE
582 DAYS?
583 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
584 ====================================================================
585 GRAY:
586    IT DOSN'T MATTER IF HAVE OR HAVE NOT READ THE BIBLE OR WHATEVER, JUST
587 USE YOUR HEAD AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIVE (OR DON'T BELIVE).
588 
589 DEBORAH: 
590   NO I DO NOT BELIVE IN CREATIVE DAYS, I WAS JUST CONTINUING THE DISCUSSION.
591 THE EVIDENCE FOR THE AGE OF FOSSILS IS BASED ON RADIOMETRIC DATING, USING
592 THE DECAY TIME OF VARIOUS ISOTOPES IT IS POSSIBLE TO DETERMINE THE AGE 
593 OF VARIOS ROCK FORMATIONS, AND THEREFORE THE FOSSILS IN THEM. OFCOURSE
594 THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE METHOD AND ERRORS CAN BE ON THE ORDER OF 
595 MILLIONS OF YEARS, BUT WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS
596 THIS IS ONLY A FEW PERCENT. (THE ESTIMATED AGE OF THE EARTH IS SOMEWHERE
597 AROUND 5 BILLION YEARS, THE OLDEST FOSSILS, 3.5 BILLION.)
598 
599 WELL THER ARE A FEW FACTS (WELL THAT DEPENDS) TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION,
600 
601                                         EVAN
602  
603 =================================================================
604  1234567890!@#$%^&*()_+][":?><,./;'{}=-<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+<>+abcdefghikkkkkk
605 
606         I belive that every thing in the Bible is true because the Bible
607       is God's word.
608      The Bible is God's word.  What he says goes!!!!!!!!!!
609 $$$$$$$$$$$###@@@!!!!@@@##$$%%%%^^^^^^^&&&&&*******((((((((((((()))__++++_______
612 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
613                  PRAISE THE LORD 
614 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
615              And pass the potato chips!
616 '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

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