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2 ************************ REMOVED: 18 APR 83 ************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
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22 ========================================
23 
24 IT IS REALLY GREAT THAT ONE STATEMENT ABOUT THE THINGS HAPPENING IN THIS
25 
26 ------------
27 Is the prior message  a comment on the users, or the discs???
28 -----------
29 Ethics that cover only some situstions are no ethics at all, just excuses.
30 There is more than one definition of "good, right, just, moral, true."
31 A real truth does depend on who said it, it stands by itself.
32 As to titles of the various philosophical schools, who gives a g--- d---?
33 It doesn't affect us, but laws (passed by governments) do. Our own ideas
34 may conflict, and we have in the US some freedom of choice, but all the
35 garbage from Agora, et al still ignore the simple thruth we live in a real
36 world, we didn't build, and it contains other people, with there own ideas.
37 Absolute truths may exist, but our studies of physics, astromnomy, etc.
38 implies we will never know them, just approximations. (These are the simple
39 situations, much simpler than the human mind.) Mathematics gives us
40 'absolute truths', but only in the context of a small, specially defined
41 micro-world.
42 Why do I harp on conflicts? Because they are a very real part of life.
43 One person alone on an island is free from all social conflicts, but
44 we are not one alone, we are together 3 1/2 billion strong. We can reduce
45 conflicts, we must, but ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
46 If you can't cope with conflicts why do you argue with us? This is an 
47 example of a conflict. Your absolute truths are true only in your own
48 small world, and not the real world. Unfortunately, you also live in the
49 real world.
50 The question of self interest vs altuism has again surfaced, at a gut
51 level it may be denyed that altruism can exist, but it is commonly seen,
52 both in humans, and in animals, so it must be real. It can be in the
53 interests of an individual to commit suicide, because his interest can
54 include others. Are we only individual? I doubt it, we are a social
55 animal. (Of course without others ethics and morals are pretty meaningless
56 anmyway.)
57 ==================================B.A.D.====0015==3-29-83===========
58 (later) OK, so as not to be only poking holes into other's ethics, here's
59 mine: do what is in the greatest good for the greatest number of people,
60 with the least harm to the least number. Of course this requires the 
61 defining of good and harm, and here is where the stickiness comes in. I
62 believe that most of the time we all agree on good and evil, so it isn't
63 usually important, but a valid ethic must cover everything, so here goes:
64 consider the total effect of your action, not just now, but its entire
65 echo throughout following history, and if it seems to hurt people, it isn't
66 ethical. What is acceptable harm changes, though, and is defined by society.
67 What is good is also, and it is therefore necessary to know what society
68 wants, and needs 
69 The correct actions will not always be the same when applied to different
70 people, though: children are treated differently from adults. (When do 
71 consider one an adult is a hairy point.) What someone wants and what he 
72 needs may differ, so consider needs, not wants if there is a conflict.
73 Consider also that your act may change their desires and therefore your
74 future ethics. Harm carries more weight than good, so be careful abut
75 hurting someone. If there is a balance, choose your self first. Remember
76 "they" are people too, even if their desires are different from yours.
77 Although basically democratic, I don't believe people are created equal,
78 or remain equal. I am smarter than most, but my musical talents are less,
79 and everybody has some more or some less of some ability than others.
80 These differences rank people, but the rank changes depending on what is
81 needed. In the jungle physical strength was vital to survival I  would
82 lose there) For a typist or computer operator strength isn't critical
83 or for most technological jobs, but smarts are, so I win here over the
84 gorilla. I also rate my friends more highly than those I don't know, but
85 since I must consider all time, this isn't critical in most decisions.
86    Therefore: I believe crime is wrong, it hurts people, I feel we should
87 pay taxes(my, my, wasn't that what atarted all this) because we can benefit
88 (all citizens) from wht taxes pay for; war is wrong unless forced by greater
89 evil, but if it is needed, do it. If there is a conflict that has no easy
90 choice, but is like one that will appear in the future, then make a decision
91 that can be lived with, it will allow future generations to make the same
92 decision, and if it is known what is right then maybe the problem can be 
93 avoided the next time.
94 
95 A voted choice is not necessarily best, because many people choose what looks
96 best now, and don't look at the total effects, or its effects in the future.
97 In fact growing up is largely learning to look at things in a wider light
98 than " I want that candy now!" and putting the money into the bank, so it
99 can buy solid food nest week. We treat children differently because they
100 aren't able to choose for themselves. We hire experts to do things we 
101 can't easily do for ourselves, and this includes run the government, but
102 we adults must watch what they do and tell them what we want. We have
103 our good government because we teach our children to behave, and as 
104 long as everybody does, we cna allow a little freedom.
105 Note that this democratic ethic does not include being good to minorities,
106 except in that they get the same treatment as everybody else. I don't
107 believe in paying someone for something my parents did to his parents, 
108 either. But it is in the greatest good to eliminate poverty, because this
109 leads to crime, and deprives society of the possible benefits of the poor's
110 ablities. We are after all, a society. The greatest good for the most.
111 Enough
112 =============================================B.A.D.====================
113 B.A.D.
114 You really should look into Metalaw. From your opinions as expressed
115 above, I think you would agree with much of it & be able to find
116 better rules than some of those currently proposed. I note that
117 you started with the 2nd principle of Metalaw and went on from
118 there.
119 ___________________________F - I W______________________________
120 
121 IT;'t aiyd o uslvs n hsicue u h oenet u OFF
122 
123 THERE HAS BEEN SOME GREAT IDEAS AND OPINIONS ON THE BOARD ABOUT LIFE
124 THE BOARD HAS REALLY COME ALIVE WITH THE IDEAS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED
125 AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING INVOLVED,IT SEEMS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AWAKE
126 OUT THERE.THE INTER-ACTION IS GOOD. I PRESENTED SOME IDEAS AND GOT SOME
127 RESPONSE AND SOME OF IT HAS CHANGED MY ATTITUDES ANDA LITTLE MORE INSIGHT
128 AS TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING.I STARTED WITH A POLITICAL SEED AND
129 NOW WANT TO ENTER ANOTHER ONE-THE WASTE THAT OUR SYSTEM CREATES EVERY 
130 DAY----RECYCLING----WE PRODUCE A FAST AMOUNT OF WHAT WE CALL WASTE-BUT
131 IN THAT WASTE-THERE IS MATERIALS THAT ARE IN SHORT DEMAND-IT IS EASY TO
132 THROW OUT BUT WE COULD REALLY REUSE MOST OF OUR BY-PRODUCTS.INSTEAD OF
133 HAVING LAND FILLS-LETS START A RECYCLING SYSTEM THAT CAN START AT HOME
134 WITH SEPERATE CANS OR THE "DUMP"-THIS IS WHERE THE JOBS COME IN AND
135 FOR SOME REASON-THERE WAS SOME PROBLEM WITH MY MACHINE OR MODEM OR THE
136 BOARD SO I WILL CONTINUE-HAVING A SYSTEM OF CONVEYOR BELTS WITH A CENTRAL
137 COLLECTION SITE,WHERE IT COULD BE PROCESSED AS TO METAL,GLASS,PAPER,
138 CONTINUED
139 WE PRODUCE MOUNTAINS OF WASTE BUT WE CAN REUSE MOST OF IT-SEPERATING
140 EVERYTHING WITH CONVEYOR BELTS AT ANY CENTRAL SITE WOULD PUT A LOT
141 OF PEOPLE TO WORK AND ANYTHING LEFT COULD BE USED AS FUEL FOR METHANE
142 DIGESTERS WHICH IN TURN COULD BE USED TOWARD POWER GENERATION FOR
143 THE SYSTEM IT SELF,TOWARD A INTERGRATED SYSTEM THAT CAN BE COMBINED
144 WITH OTHER SYSTEMS.IT MAY SOUND UN-PRACTICAL TO SOME BUT TAKING THE
145 BASIC IDEA AND PEOPLES PARTICIPATION-IT WOULD WORK WILL ON A LARGE
146 SCALE AS IT DOES FOR THE SMALL GROUPS INVOLVED AROUND THE COUNTRY
147 NOW.AND YES-I WOULD WORK MYSELF IN THE DUMP SITE BECAUSE I HAVE WORK-
148 ED IN A SIMILAR SITUATION,WHERE THEY WERE DEALING WITH NEWSPRINT AND
149 CARDBOARD BUT THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF OTHER THINGS THAT WHERE PASSED
150 OVER IN THE PROCESS IS WHAT OPENED MY EYES TO WHAT COULD REALLY BE
151 DONE WITH OUR DISCARDS.
152 ANY COMMENTS OR IDEAS????????????????????????????????????????????????
153 
154 THANK YOU FOR THE SPACE ON THE BOARD.
155 
156 --------------------------------------THE O.J. KID. 3-29-83-----------
157 ======================================================================
158 TO O.J.KID,  I've often said to technophobes that if you want to be
159 paranoid about technology, you should be scarred shitless everytime
160 you see a flush-toilet.  The Japanese and Chinese have understood for
161 centuries that it is insane to flush waste into our natural water
162 system rather than re-cycle it.
163 To HUMBUG:  It's not a conclusion; it's a factual observation.  The fact
164 of your participation stands once again re-affirmed by you--and once 
165 again as you read this (to take delivery of this silver bullet).  We're
166 trading ideas here.  You don't seem to understand the practical im-
167 portance of ideas.  If there are things wrong in the world, you can
168 treat causes or symptoms.  Some may choose to remedy symptoms "within
169 ten miles of their own house".  I applaud such para-medics.  I have such
170 skills and spent years practicing.  But when medieval practitioners like
171 you are applying leeches to people who show symptoms of blood-loss trauma,
172 then it becomes paramount that we raise the level of knowledge in our
173 medical practitioners.  There is urgency for people who REALLY care.
174 People like you should be jolted into seeing that you're killing people
175 with leeches rather than helping them.
176   "Electronic shouting match between a masked elite".  You have insight!
177 We're pioneering a new communication media here.  The annonymity adds
178 extra spice.  There should be one of these BWMS in every community!
179 Standby: the personal computing revolution is moving so fast that there
180 soon probably will be.  MIKE, ya wanna git rich?  Dubious distinction,
181 HUMBUG?  Would you prefer that the annoying world of ideas be left to 
182 the public school brainwashing and that BIG BROTHER take care of you?
183 To B.A.D.:  When people's definitions of GOOD, JUSTICE, MASS, ENERGY
184 conflict, then claims are "tested" against reality.  Some claims are
185 discovered wrong (eg, yours).  There ARE absolutes.  They span reality;
186 not your own little subjective micro-world.  If you say there are no
187 absolutes, then you are laughable because you're uttering one.  If you
188 say that we should not seek simplicity (ie, clarity) then you are
189 laughable because you are uttering a very simplistic (and absolute)
190 proclamaton.  
191   You're a mental retard who walks up to us on a 747 after takeoff and
192 says, "Airbourne flight by man is impossible in principle".  When I 
193 mash your face against the port-hole you say the view of the earth
194 below is just a subjective illusion in my own micro-world.
195   To repeat, Ethics interprets conflict situations, it doesn't ignore
196 them.  If you think my view of absolute truth is not true in reality,
197 then our recourse is to consult reality thru analysis and experiment.
198 That is what discourse is for; that is how knowledge grows.  I not only
199 live in the real world, I think in it.  Can you say the same?  I am coping
200 with the conflicts in your ideas quite well, thank you.  You are beginning
201 to sound like MOON-U, the broken record, however.  Why do I argue?
202 You're an intellectual punching-bag.  And you're losing air.
203   You say we should keep an open mind; but you hand us a 44-Magnum and
204 tell us to blow a hole in our head.  You say some of us have our head
205 in the sand, but you continue to invite us into your ethical torture
206 chamber.  I'm merely warning others that there is quicksand under your
207 welcome-mat.
208 ===========AGORA CADRE (Merlin screams; his mountain explodes!)===========
209  --------------------------------------
210 
211 SEEING THE SITUATION THAT MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING PEOPLE I WORK WITH ARE
212 THAT THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WORKING AND MANY OF THESE PEOPLE
213 HAVE HOMES AND FAMILIES TO TAKE CARE BUT NO JOB AND/OR RESOURCES AND 
214 THIS LEAVES ANY PERSON IN A HELL OF A POSITION-IS THERE TO MANY PEOPLE
215 FOR THE FEW JOBS OUT THERE? I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT A IDEA THAT IS
216 BEING USED IN OTHER COUNTRIES WERE PEOPLE ARE HELPING EACH OTHER OUT BY
217 SHARING JOB HOURS-INSTEAD OF WORKING 40 HOURS AS ONE PERSON-YOU START
218 SHARING TIME/HOURS WITHIN A GROUP SO OTHERS HAVE A CHANCE TO BE PRO-
219 DUCTIVE AND MAINTAIN SOME SELF-WORTH AND THEIR FAMILIES AND ENTER-ACT
220 WITH THE PEOPLE THEY WORK WITH-A LITTLE MORE FREE TIME FOR EVERYONE
221 INVOLVED. ANY SYSTEM , ANYWHERE CAN PRESENT A PROBLEM(S)BUT IT'S THE
222 NOT SOMETHING WE CAN OVERCOME IF WE DEAL WITH IT AND EACH OTHER TO
223 MAKE THINGS WORK FOR ALL INVOLVED.
224 
225 --------------------------------------THE O.J.KID--------------------
226 OFF
227 OFF
228 HAVING STATED MY OPINIONS,QUALIFIED THEM,REQUALIFIED THEM, AND
229 GROWN BORED WITH THE ONGOING DEBATE OF PHILOSOPHY, I WOULD LIKE
230 TO THANK MIKE FOR THE DISK SPACE,B.A.D. FOR THE INPUT ( OTHERS TOO),
231 AND CERTAINLY AGORA FOR THE PROVOCATION. ALTHOUGH YOU SLING SHIT,
232 SPEAK IN GENERALITIES, AND ARGUE WITH AMBIGUOUS TERMS, YOU
233  ARE CONSISTANT. AND YOU SPEAK YOUR MIND. I LIKE THAT. I MAY
234 NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW YOU SAY IT, BUT AT LEAST TYOUR
235 NOT LATHARGICLY DISINTERESTED. PEOPLE SPEEK, WRITE, BETTER WHEN
236 PROVOKED. THANKS FOR THE INSPIRATION.  SIGNING OUT ON THIS SUBJECT,
237 HAVING SAID ALL IVE TO SAY, MORE THAN ONCE, TO AVOID SOUNDING
238 REPETITIOUS, HASNT IT ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED TOO MUCH, WHAT MORE
239 IS THERE TO SAY,............................ SPAM-THE HERITIC
240 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
241 OFF
242 =======================================================================
243 TO SPAM and other Philosophy Phreaks:  Try "Introduction to Objectivist
244 Epistomology" by Ayn Rand.  It's a Mentor Paperback.  I've seen it at
245 B.Dalton(Wash.SQ) and at Powels Books downtown.  Adeau.
246 ================AGORA CADRE============================================
247 TO AGORA:
248 YOU CLAIMED THERE ARE ABSOLUTES. NAME ONE.
249 YOU CALLED ME A LOT OF MO_ (SORRY, I CAN'T GET THE BACKSPACE ON THISTING TO WO
250 THIONG TO WORK WITH THIS SYSYTEM) OF NAMES, BUT THAT MEANS NOTHING.
251 I SUSPECT THE SAME OF YOU.
252 
253 
254 THE PROBLEM WITH JOBS IS MOSTLY THAT THE COMPANIES FOIND IT CHEAPER
255 TO LAY PEOPLE OFF THAN TO KEEP THEM. JOB SHARING EXISTS, BUT MOST
256 COMPANIES DON'T LIKE IT, BECAUSE IT IS TO EXPENSIVE: BOTH WORKERS
257 WORK LESS HOURS, GET LESS PAY (SAME PER HOUR RATE), BUT EXPECT THE
258 SAME FRINGE BENEFITS, LIKE MEDICAL. THESE ARE ABOUT 1/3 OR THE TOTAL
259 COST OF AN AMERICAN WORKER.
260 THE PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING IS THE SAME: IT COSTS TOO MUCH. WHEN IT IS
261 CHEAPER TO RECYCLE WE WILL, BUT IT ISN'T. BY THE WAY, COSTS INCLUDE
262 BOTH THE VISIBLE DOLLARS, AND ALL RELATED COSTS, LIKE UNPAID LABOR,
263 THE GAS YOU SPEND GETTING YOUR BOTTLES TO THE RECYCLER, ETC. BEER CANS
264 SENT BACK LOOK GOOD UNTIL YOU ASK HOW MUCH EACH PERSON SPENDS ON KIT.
265 (THERE GOTTA BE A BACKSPACE SOMEWHERE ON THIS THING!!!)
266 CAN'T FIND IT.
267 --------------------------------B.A.D.--------3-29-83---1854PM------
268 TO F-IW:
269 YOU SPEAK OF METALAW. I STOPPED READING THE LIT ON PHILOSOPY A LONG
270 TIME AGO, BECAUSE 1. MOST OF IT WAS THE SAME THING OVER NAND OVER, OR
271 RREFUTATIONS OF THE SAME AND 2. VERY LITTLE OIF IT PERTAINED TO REALITY.
272 BACK THEN METALAW MEANT SOMETHING LIKE 'THE RULES OF FORMING LAWS', BUT
273 SOMEONE HAS OBVIOUSLY REUSED THE WORD TO MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
274 WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY METALAW?
275 +++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D. (AGAIN)++++++++++++++++++++
276 H@ 
277 IKE  
278 HI< MI[E
279 I FYNALLY GGT TI	ME (O TRY BW]S>
280 I SEL] TO BE BETTING TRASX
281 ***********************************************************
282 A FEW THOUGHTS ABOUT RECYCLING...
283 RECYCLING CAN BE PROFITABLE. THE CURRENT PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING AS
284 YOU ARE CURRENTLY DEFINING IT (I.E. TAKING THE STUFF BEING THROWN
285 IN THE CITY DUMP AND TRYING TO REUSE IT) IS THAT THE RAW VIRGIN
286 MATTERIAL WE USE TO GENERATE THE TRASH IS CHEAPER TO PRODUCE THEN
287 IT IS TO TRY TO RECOVER THE STUFF OUT OF THE TRASH HEAP.
288 THIS HOWEVER IS NOT TRUE IN ALL THINGS. THERE ARE MANY BUSINESSES
289 OUT THERE THAT ARE DOING EXTREMLY WELL RECOVERING RARE METALS FROM
290 OLD ELECTRONIC GEAR. THERE ARE MANY MORE RECYCLING OLD USED EQUIPMENT
291 BACK INTO THE MARKET AS WELL. IN MANY CASES THE WHOLE CONCEPT SHIFTS
292 AND THE OLD MATERIAL CAN ACTUALLY BECOME FAR MORE VALUABLE THEN IT
293 WAS ORIGINALLY AS IN THE CASE OF ANTIQUES. 
294 A GOOD WAY TO START IS TO REANALYIS THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF RECYCLING.
295 CASE IN POINT: DIESEL FUEL IS PRODUCED FROM THE WASTE LEFT OVER FROM
296 PROCESSING FOR GASOLINE. THIS WASTE USE TO BE THROWN AWAY. AS THE 
297 VOLUME OF GAS PRODUCTION PICKED UP IT BECAME DIFFICULT TO FIND
298 WAYS TO GET RID OF THE STUFF. SO THE OIL COMPANIES REFINED IT SO MORE
299 AND CAME UP WITH DIESEL FUEL. SINCE THE PRICE OF THE ORIGINAL VIRGIN
300 MATTERIAL (CRUDE OIL) WAS ALREADY PAYED FOR THRU THE GAS, THE PRICE OF
301 THE DIESEL FUEL ONLY NEEDED TO TO BASED ON THE ADDITIONAL REFINERY COSTS.
302 AS TIME WHENT BY DIESEL FUEL BECAME MORE POPULAR DESPITE THE DIFFICULTY
303 IN USEING IT IN ENGINES. IN HIGH VOLUME USE ENGINES IT WAS WORTH IT 
304 BECAUSE OF THE LOWER COST OF THE FUEL. WHERE IT REALLY GOT HEAVY USE
305 THOUGH WAS AS HOME HEATING FUEL, AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE COST. AS THE PRICE
306 OF CRUDE OIL WHENT UP THE REFINERS HAD TO ADJUST THE COSTS. SINCE THEY
307 COULDN'T ADD IT ALL ONTO THE PRICE OF GASOLINE, THEY STARTED SHIFTING 
308 PART OF THE CRUDE COST TO THE DIESEL FUELS. AS A RESULT DIESEL FUEL
309 HAS SHIFTED IN CONCEPT FROM BEING A WASTE RECOVERY PRODUCT TO BEING A
310 VIRGIN REFINED PRODUCT.
311 NATURAL GAS IS THE SAME HERE, WHEN AN OIL WELL IS DRILLED, SOMETIMES
312 THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF METHANE TRAPPED IN THE OIL RESEVOIR. THIS 
313 USE TO BE VENTED TO THE AIR AND BURNED AS WASTE. INFACT WHERE IT IS 
314 TOO INSUFFICIENT AN AMOUNT TO TRAP, OR WHERE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO 
315 RECOVER IT FOR SOME REASON THIS IS STILL DONE. AGAIN HERE IS A WASTE
316 PRODUCT THAT HAS SHIFTED TO BEING A VIRGIN MATERIAL.
317 SO YOU SEE, THE IDEA IS TO CHANGE YOUR VIEW, DON'T LOOK UPON IT AS
318 WASTE, RATHER LOOK AT IT AS A SOURCE OF RAW MATERIAL TO PROVIDE A 
319 NEW AND EXCITING PRODUCT TO ADD TO THE MARKET PLACE!
320 *** CISTOP MIKEY WITH SOME THOUGHTS ON RECYCLING *** 30 MAR 83 *******
321 IN RESPONSE TO B.A.D.
322 THE WHOLE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS THE STATE OF MIND YOUR IN(MIKEY HAS A
323 POINT IN MIND)IT DOESN'T COST ANY MORE TO RECYCLE THAN IT DOES TO
324 THROW IT AWAY-THERE IS GOING TO BE OVERHEAD IN ANY OPERATION-IT'S
325 INHERANT IN ANY OPERATION-I JUST DON'T SEE THE NEED TO THROW AWAY
326 WHAT CAN BE REUSED-WHERE DO ALL THOSE NATURAL RESOURES COME FROM
327 AND IN WHAT MATTER ARE THEY OBTAINED????????THIS COUNTRY ALONE USES
328 AROUND 1/3 OF ALL RESOURCES ON THE PLANET AND WE WANT MORE AS WE
329 FLY DOWN THE ROAD AND PITCH IT.SOMEWHERE IN THERE, SOMEONE LOSES-
330 THE COUNTRIES THAT UNWILLINGLY PROVIDE THOSE RAW MATERIALS-IN THE
331 FORM OF FOREIGN AID(IS THIS A CALLING CARD OR INVITATION)TO "HELP"
332 SMALL AND GROWING COUNTRIES MANAGE THEIR RAW RESOURCES SO THEY 
333 DON'T GO TO WASTE. I CAN LOOK AT THE WORLD SITUATION AND IT SEEMS
334 LIKE IT'S A FREE FOR ALL-TAKE WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU HAVE THE POWER
335 AND LEAVE THE REST A MESS IN THE DUST.
336 ------------------------------------------THE O.J. KID.-3-30-83---
337 WEVE HEARD SO MUCH,TO MUCH IN FACT,ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE CAN TAKE
338 OUR SCRAP IRON AND STEEL,RECYCLE IT, THEN SELL IT BACK TO AMERICAN
339 INDUSTRY CHEEPER THAN WE CAN DO IT OURSELVES. THIS IS NOT AN EXAMPLE
340 OF "CHEAP LABOR" PER SAY, AS IT IS OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE REALIZING
341 THE WORTH OF "TRASH". THERE ARE OF COURSE OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED,
342 BUT THE MAIN POINT IS THAT AN INDUSTRY HAS FOUND A WAY TO DO SOMTHING
343 WE HAVNT SEEN COST EFFECTIVE. WHY CANT WE DO THIS???? 
344                            TIM
345 ////////////////////////////           
346 
347 
348 I would be a cash buyer of two VIC-20's in clean, unmodified condition if
349  offered soon for something near $65 (more if desired accessories are included).
350 Leave message here.  HUMBUG, trying to enter marvelous electronic frontiers!
351 HI MIKEY-I WAS WONDERING WHAT SIZE DISK YOU USE FOR BWMS-I WANT TO
352 CONTRIBUTE A BOX OF DISKS FOR THE BOARD BECAUSE I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY
353 THAT YOUR PROVIDING IS GREAT BECAUSE ONE SHOULDN'T TOW THE LINE-I'M
354 MORE THAN WILLING TO SHARE IN SOMETHING THAT BENIFITS A LARGE NUMBER OF
355 PEOPLE. LEAVE A MESSAGE ON THE BOARD OR I WILL CALL YOU LATER IN THE
356 EVENING.............................................ONE FOR ALL AND
357 ALL FOR ONE.............................THE O.J.KID....3-30-83...........
358 TO: THE O.J.KID     THANKS FOR THE DISKS THEY WILL HELP REDUCE THE LOAD
359 ON MY SUPPLY.
360 ...... CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS .................................................
361 BAD
362   WOULD YOU CALL THIS CONSIQUENCIALIST,UTTILITARIANISM? I WOULD BE 
363 INCLINED TO AGREE WITH YOU REGARDLESS OF YOUR LABLE.,,,SPAM,,,,,
364 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
365 LIKE FAR OUT. FOR SURE FOR SURE. LIKE GAG ME WITH A GARDEN RAKE.
366 TAKE AWAY MY BIRTHDAY, PUNISH ME WITH A BAD HAIRDOO, BUT GIRLFRIEND
367 "GET OFF MY DRESS"!!!!!!!!  LIKE STICK IT UP YOUR VALLY GOON UNIT!!
368 #      #    &      $       (        """          )    #    &&&&&&&
369 HAVE I ENTERED?  IT'S DARK IN HERE -- I'M GROPING.
370 FROM RAGMOP1
373 TO MIKEY
374 BY THE TIME I GOT TO THE OFFICE SUPPLY-EVERYTHING HAD
375 BEEN SOLD THAT OF BEEN OF USE AFTER MY BROTHER LISTED
376 THE GOOD BUY ON DISKS ON VARIOUS BOARDS BUT WAS ABLE TO
377 PICK UP A BOX OF DISK WHICH I WILL LIST-I KNOW THERE NOT
378 THE SIZE YOU NEED BUT IS THERE SOMEONE YOU KNOW THAT CAN
379 USE THIS SIZE AND TRADE YOU FOR A BOX IN THE SIZE YOU CAN
380 USE? "BUD" BRAND FLOPPY DISKS-8 INCH BFD 34,BOX OF 10
381 DOUBLE DENISTY/SOFT-SECTORED.
382 -----------------------------------THE O.J.KID...3/31/83....
383 DN 200
384 
385 TO: O.J.KID         YES, IN FACT I USE THE 8" ON ANOUTHER COMPUTER
386 SYSTEM. WHICH OF COURSE MEANS I WOULD PUT THE NEXT DISK BUY TOWARDS
387 THE 5" INSTEAD OF THE 8".
388 ............ MIKEY CISTOP BWMS OF ....................................
389 Sorry, Mike, but diesel is not a converted waste product from making 
390 gasoline, but it is is just another thing that can be made out of oil.
391 Exxon et al can make either, though it is true that more diesel can usually
392 be made from one gallon of oil. The oil companies "crack" the oil to 
393 get more light products like gas or diesel. The arab states usually throw
394 out the natural gas in their oil, because it is too far from any big
395 market, and are just now going into liquifying it and shipping this to
396 Europe and the US. Liquified gas is however very dangerous, and they are
397 having trouble finding places to store it near civilized markets. The
398 fires of this wasted gas being burned is easily visible from orbit.
399 
400 Another answer to waste is not recycle, but reduce the waste in the 
401 beginning, by being more efficient. For example, here we get beer in
402 glass or metal cans, in europe they also use cardboard with only a thin
403 film of plastic inside and out for waterproofing. You have to be careful
404 of these things, they will melt if scratched and put in water, but use
405 a lot less energy to make. although glazed slick paper is not recyclable,
406 it uses less wood to make in the first place, and less energy to make and
407 print on it, and less ink. We really don't need that fancy expensive
408 box 6" by 10" that that 3" by 4" VIC cartridge came in.
409 One reason the Japanese can reuse or scrap iron better than we, is their
410 more modern steel industry. The US steel industry has just gone ahead
411 with the old way so long they are obsolete, lose money, and can not afford
412 to upgrade,lose more money, etc. They are not the only ones doing this:
413 how many american shoes do you see?, or cameras?, or TV's, or???
414 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~~~Apr 1,1983~~~~03:55 am~~~
415 =========================================================================
416 To B.A.D.:  I think a very good first step toward good communication is to
417 tell like you see it.  I do.  You should too.  I use strong anology for
418 impact.  Nothing wrong with names when they encapsulate the truth.
419 Probably the best candidate for an absolute is Ayn Rand's statement:
420 "Existence exists", this absolute is an axiom--you must use (or exemplify)
421 it in some way in order to even try to disprove it.  If you're interested
422 in other absolutes, see the Rand book I referenced above.  
423   I read with interest about re-cycling.  One thing I've often wondered
424 since starting a business here in OR several years ago is why aren't there
425 any good electronics surplus outlets around here.  In Dallas, I used to 
426 go to the Rondure Co. where they have whole warehouses full of older,
427 out-of-commision computers at drastically reduced prices.  They also had
428 military surplus electronics.  This is one kind of recycling that should
429 become even more interesting as these millions of personal computers hit
430 the used and over-the-hill status.  
431 =================AGORA CADRE===========01APR83--1509====================
432 ON THE SUBJECT OFF REUUSING OLD OR WORN OUT THINGS
433 GREAT IDEA BUT AS STATED BEFORE THE COST IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF 
434 FOR INSTANCE WOOD WASTES,GRASS,LEAVES
435 TAKE THEM TO THE DUMP APPROX.$12 FOR A PICKUP TO ONE OF
436 THE RECYCLING CENTERS $1 TO $3
437 DOLLARS A YARD
438 COSTS TO THE RECYCLING CENTER
439 APPROX.$135 HR TO CHIP TREES & LIMBS
440 MULCH-APPROX.$6 A YARD
441 THIS INCLUDES MOST OF YOUR OVERHEAD & LABOR
442 BUT MOST PEOPLE EITHER BURN OR TAKE TO A VACANT LOT.
443 BUT THE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS GOOD BUT THINK OF THE COST TO 
444 EITHER SET UP A PLACE TO DO IT AND IF THE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO THE WORK OF 
445 THE INITIAL WORK OF SORTING AT HOME
446 OFF
447 EXIT
448 
449 
450 OFF
451 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
452 AGORA: You never did go away, as you once promised.  Prompted by your
453  last missile to or at me, I rescind my apology to you.  Keep writing
454  your stylized verbage, and people will come to know just what you are!
455                       HUMBUG
456 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
457 ABOUT THE DIESEL FUEL AND SUCH, YES DIESEL FUEL USE TO BE REFINED FROM
458 THE WASTE CRUDE. BECAUSE OF THE VOLUME NEEDED IT IS NOW REFINED DIRECTLY
459 FROM THE VIRGIN CRUDE AS I STATED TO GET THE VOLUME UP. BUT WHAT I WAS
460 TALKING ABOUT WAS THE ORIGINAL REASON FOR IT EXISTANCE, WHICH WAS TO USE
461 THE CRUDE WATSES. MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT THE CRUDE IS REFINE IN ONE SHOT
462 INTO ONLY ONE THING, AND THE WASTE IS THEN DISCARDED. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT
463 TRUE. AS MANY AS 10 OR MORE PRODUCTS CAN BE REFINED FROM THE OIL AT ONCE.
464 WHAT OFTEN HAPPENS HOWEVER IS THAT THEY WILL CONCENTRATE ON ONE PARTICULAR
465 PRODUCT (SUCH AS GAS OR DIESEL) IN ORDER TO GET A HIGHER VOLUME. THIS DOES
466 REDUCE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE OVERALL REFINING HOWEVER. EVEN THE WASTE FROM 
467 THE FINAL REFINEING IS PUT TO USE THOUGH. IT IS USED IN SUCH THINGS AS
468 FERTALIZER, AND TAR (WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT GOOY STUFF FOR THE ASFALT MIX
469 COMES FROM?).
470 IF YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED, I SUGEST YOU TAKE A TOUR THROUGH A REFINERY
471 IT IS VERY INTERESTING.
472 ALSO AS I STATED, NATURAL GAS FROM THE OIL WELLS IS INDEED BURNED OFF AS
473 WASTE WHEN IT CANNOT BE MADE USE OF FOR SOME REASON. YOU WERE ONLY
474 REITERATING WHAT I SAID. THIS THROW AWAY ONLY OCCURS AS LONG AS NO ONE
475 WANTS IT. IN AREAS WHERE NATURAL GAS IS IN HEAVY USE THEY NOW OFTEN
476 DRILL WELLS SPECIFICALY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOOKING FOR NATURAL GAS.
477 IN OTHER AREAS SUCH AS SUDI AS YOU MENTIONED WHERE THERE IS NO USE
478 FOR THE GAS THEY BURN IT OFF. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT A VALUABLE
479 COMODITY, ONLY THAT THEY HAVE NOT LEARNED TO USE IT. NATURAL GAS IS
480 ONE OF THE NEATEST NATURAL FUELS. IT REQUIRES LITTLE OR NO REFINING
481 IT BURNS VERY EFFICENTLY. IT CAN BE STORED IN CONCENTRATED FORM. AND IT 
482 CAN BE SHIPPED TO THE CUSTOMER WITH THE LOWEST DIRECT COST OF ANY
483 OTHER FUEL. THE PROBLEM IS THE INDIRECT COST (I.E. THE PIPELINE). THE \
484 VERY HIGH SETUP COST IS WHY GAS IS NOT USED MORE HEAVILY. HOWEVER AS THE 
485 PRICE OF GASOLINE RAISES NATURAL GAS BECOMES MORE DESIREOUS. THE 
486 RUSSANS AREN'T LAYING IN THAT PIPELINE FOR FUN!
487 I STILL SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WASTE, ONLY NONUSED RESOUCES.
488 ALSO THE WASTE WILL BE RECYCLED EVENTUALLY BY NATURE, IT IS ONLY
489 A MATTER OF WHEN.
490 YOU TALK OF THE NEAT THINGS EUROPE IS DOING TO REDUCE WASTE, WHY NOT
491 LOOK IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD? AMERICANS ARE DOING JUST AS MUCH IF NOT
492 MORE OF THE SAME. NOT TO LONG AGO MILK CAME IN GLASS BOTTLES (BY THE
493 WAY, THIS IS THE 'BEST' WAY SINCE THE BOTTLES ARE REUSED SO THAT
494 THE ONLY ENERGY USED IS IN CLEANING THEM FOR REUSE. THE PROBLEM
495 IS THE PAPERWORK NEEDED TO KEEP TRACK OF THEM.) NOW MILK COMES
496 IN WAXED CARDBOARD CARTONS, AND PLASTIC CONTAINERS. HOWABOUT THE 
497 NEW WINE CARTONS OUT  OF CALIFORNIA THAT ARE JUST A CARDBOARD BOX
498 WITH A PLASTIC LINER. THE NEW CHEAPER THINER ALUMINUM CANS. THE NEW
499 FOIL POUCHES. WHAT ABOUT THE PLASTIC POUCHES FOR VEGGIES THAT HAVE
500 REPLACED THE OLD TIN CANS? SWANSON HAS BEEN FOOLING AROUND WITH 
501 CARDBOARD FOR THIER TV DINNERS. PAPER RECYCLING IS STILL BEING DONE,
502 IT IS MOSTLY VOLUNTER WORK HOWEVER AS IT IS DIFFICULT TO COMPETE
503 WITH THE ESTABLISHED VIGIN PAPER MARKET. YES, RECYLCING IS ALIVE AND
504 WELL, IT IS JUST NOT BEING RECOGINZED WHEN IT OCCURS.
505 ONE PARTING THOUGHT, IF IT WERE NOT FOR WASTE THE SMALL BUSINESS 
506 WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN TODAYS MARKET. THINK ABOUT IT,
507 THERE ARE SOME VERY DEEP IMPLICATIONS HERE.
508 **** CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS THE RAVEN ONE *********************
509 Just a reminder:
510 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
511 Sun Apr.3 for 24hrs
512 -|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
513 Agora, thanks for the nothing, using a word to prove itself means, in
514 complex computer terms, 0=0. In any case, what does existance mean? Is it
515 good? I think we were discussing what to do if we existed, but since you
516 are hung up on words, not their meaning....
517 Waste is the nonuse of something that could have use, it isn't evil by 
518 itself, for instance the cloth left when the clothes are cut out is waste,
519 miimizing it is important, not eliminating. Whether we use oil as gas or
520 as deisel doesn't matter, we are wasting a very valuable irreplaceable
521 resource: it is needed as raw material for industry. Glass bottles were
522 very wasteful and costly (energy, transportation, retrevial,
523 breakage, washing, risk of contamination, etc). Paper is cheaper, both
524 in terms of $$$, and in energy. Unfortunately we have no good way to
525 get rid of them after they are used up: home burning is dirty.
526 Most of the carton is paper and renewable, too. Should milk come in quarts?
527 Or bulk, you bring your own bottle to the store?
528 Things will be recycled as soon as it is worth it. The lack of surplus stores
529 has always irked me, too.
530 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~apr 3,83~~~~~~~~
531 WHAT IS A WEED? A PLANT WITH NO USE. SEEMS THE VIETNAMESE THAT ARE MOVING
532 INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS AS TO WHAT IS A WEED, THEY EAT
533 THEM. I SPEND HOURS AND DAYS KILLING MORNING GLORIES, BUT THE @!#$% ACCROSS
534 THE STREET PLANTS THEM AS FLOWERS. SEE ANYTHING SIMILAR HERE??
535 ??????????????????????????????
536 WASTE: TO FAIL TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF; LEFTOVER, SUPERFLUOUS; DISCARDED MATERIAL.
537 (FROM WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY)
538 ...........................................................................
539 
540 About glass bottles, knowing both the paper industry and the glass industry,
541 i would have to disagree with BAD about them being more wasteful and costly.
542 paper does require large amounts of energy to produce, but most poeple don't
543 see it what they see is the energy used to convert the roll paper from the 
544 manufacturer into the final package. What is not seen is the energy used to
545 get the paper to that roll form. growing the trees harvesting them
546 transporting them storing them. processing them into pulp and processing that
547 pulp into the desired paper. there is as much energy used here as in the glass
548 industry. So what is the beef about glass verses paper? simple, glass has an
549 higher people involvment then paper, so you have a higher labor cost. Were
550 you to automate the glass industry as heavily as they have the paper industry
551 things might be different. ANouther aspect to consider is that the paper
552 containers basicly cannot be recycled. this is because of all the chemicals
553 and bonded matterials that comes as a part of the paper container. It can't 
554 be burned because of these matterials and stuff, it can't be repupled for the
555 same reason, so all that is left is to bury it and let mother nature recover
556 it a few million years from now. glass on the other hand  like aluminum and
557 steel is one of the easy to recycle materials. in the case of bottles all
558 that needs to be done is to clean them for reuse. no raw resources need to
559 be involved at all. broken and non standard size bottles can be melted
560 down for regeneration just as the metals are. The transportation network
561 is there, its called the distribution network. They are going home with
562 empty loads, so why not ship the empties with them instead. What the 
563 bottling industry doesn't like is the expense of traking the bottles
564 this is a people expense not a material expense, but it is most of the
565 cost of the bottle.
566 What about plastic, isn't it basicly just cheap glass? well, yes sort of
567 the problem with plastic is that it is easily contaminated which means
568 it cannot be reused if it is. by chosing the proper plastics for the 
569 container this can be avoided but it makes the container more expensive.
570 If you are willing to go this far though you then have the problem of 
571 washing them for reuse. with glass you just crank the tempurature of
572 the wash as high as you need to kill the bacteria. with plastic you
573 have to be carfull or you will damage the container. because of the
574 tight controls involved it is usually simpler to throw the container
575 away. What about remelting the plastic for reuse like glass? While
576 this is possible, there are problems here too. FIst plastic has a
577 far higher suseptibility to contamination then does glass. With 
578 glass you just skim the contaminates of the surface after the melt
579 with plastic the contaminates often stay dispersed within the plastic
580 which leaves you with a much poorer grade of plastic that cannot
581 be used in the food industry. it could still be used as packing material
582 and such howeverr, or possibly in low grade applications.
583 What about the 'waste' cloth that was mentioned earlier, is it really
584 waste? no, it is used and is used purposefully it is usually reprocessed
585 as filler material or padding. it is not 'wasted'.
586 I know of very little industrial materials that are 'wasted' why throw
587 it away if you can make a buck off it? The people who are sinners 
588 when it comes to waste are the consummers you and me.
589 ........... the exwarior .......................................
590 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
591 Five people are locked in a room.
592 The five are Agora, Humbug, SPAM, an entity called F-IW, and an exwarrior.
593 The evil genious who locked them in (he thought it was a good idea, one of
594 his best) has explaned over a loud speaker that the only way out is by
595 agreeing on a code of ethics for every-day living that also solves the
596 problem of the room full of contrary individuals in a life/death situation.
597 The evil one will let them out when a code of ethics, not to exceed 1500
598 charactors, including spaces, must be understandable by an individual with
599 a eighth grade education, and is acceptable to the evil one himself.
600 To add spice to the occasion, the evil one turns off the air supply to the
601 room.  Not only is time limited, but talking must be kept to a bare minimum.
602  
603                          Have fun, folks,
604                             I know I will...
605                                 the Phantom Glitch.
606 
607 p.s. If a man with a superior code of ethics, encounters a man with a less
608      useful code, and knows that this situation could be easily taken ad-
609      vantage of, what is the correct ethical course?
610 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
611 THANKS FOR THE TIME ON THE MACHINE...  BOB IN ST JOHNS
612 OFF
613 0FF
614 I PUT A IDEA SEED ON THE BOARD ABOUT RECYCLING-THERE ARE THE COSTS
615 INVOLVED AS MANY HAVE STATED-WE CAN'T GET AROUND THIS-MY MAIN PIONT
616 WAS THE PROCESSING OF WASTE, BY PRODUCTS OR ANYTHING ONE MIGHT CALL
617 THEM. THATS WERE THE QOUTE"DUMP"COMES IN-HAVING A CENTRAL PLACE OF
618 COLLECTION SO "IT" CAN BE SORTED AND REUSED AS RESOURCES AND ALSO
619 PROVIDING JOBS. THINGS ALWAYS DON'T TO BE GEARED TO WHAT THE PROFIT
620 MARGIN WILL BE-IF YOU CAN DO ONE THING TO SOLVE ANOTGHER-WHY NOT-EVEN
621 IN YOUR 3 PERCENT OVER THE ACTUAL COST.YOU SEE VARIOUS CITIES RIGHT
622 HERE IN THE METRO AREA THAT DON'T WANT THAT "DUMP"IN THEIR BACK YARD
623 BUT STILL PRODUCE WHAT THEY DON'T WANT-SEND IT SOMEWHErE ELSE AND
624 BURY IT OR REUSE IT?I CAN GIVE A EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE I KNOW THAT
625 COULD MAKE MORE IN A DAY PICKING THRU THE TRASH HEAP IN A DUMP THAN
626 HIS JOB AS A BULL DOZER OPERATOR PLOWING IT UNDER AND THAT WAS ON A
627 LIMITED BASIS.IT'S A PROBLEM WE WILL HAVE AS LONG AS THE MAJOR
628 GROUP OF PEOPLE WE ALL LIVE WITH DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT HAND.WE

     