LIST
FILE ON
MARGIN IS 128 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 23 OCT 83 ****************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (Backwater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the disk, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 ANON:    NO, IT USES 18 SECTOR DISKS. THE PROBLEM IS LARGLY BASED ON THE LENGTH
26 OF THE LINE SENT WHICH RELATES TO JOW LONG IT HAS BEEN SINCE THE LAST DISK WRITE
27 THUS THE DIFFERENCE IN TIME PERIOD TO WRITE TO DISK. AND AS I SAID EARLIER, THE
28 NULLS ARE WRITTEN TO DISK AS WELL (THEY ARE TREATED LIKE ANY OTHER CHARACTER.)
29 Leonard: SOUNDS LIKE IT MIGHT WORK. BE SURE TO NOT HAVE ANY LINE FEEDS
30 AFTER YOUR CARRAGE RETURN, OR YOU WILL GET DOUBLE LINES.
31 Billy: GREAT, MAYBE I'LL SEE YOU THIS WEEKEND? EITHER WAY, WE NEED TO
32 GET TOGETHER SOMETIME TO GET THE THING GOING. P.S. HOWS THE SIGN COMING?
33 ********** CISTOP MIKEY ********* 19 OCT 83 ********* 9:14AM ************
34 Mikey: I'll give it a try later. By the way, a msg to you (& others)
35 disappeared. Among other things, I pointed out that if you argue
36 long enough, PNB will let you put your BBS on a metered line. My
37 users group managed this (the board ain't on line yet because of
38 software troubles!). If you are in GTE territory, you could try
39 anyway...
40 DOM:  I entered the argument mainly because someone (I think it was
41 you) objected to the use of the bible as a reference. At the time
42 I didn't state my objection very clearly. I now realize that the
43 REAL trouble was that it was thought that d was trying to prove
44 the existance of God. She was really objecting to statements made
45 about christian beliefs. I feel that the bible is a valid source
46 of data for discussions about what christians believe. They all
47 use it as a starting point (where they go from there is another
48 matter). Similarly, I feel that the koran is the "proper" source
49 for data on moslem beliefs (and the book of Mormon for L.D.S, etc).
50 OK?     I think this kind of thing happens frequently. Someone
51 wants to correct a side point & the corrected person thinks they
52 are commenting on the main argument.  In any case, I made a very
53 SPECIFIC statement about my religious beliefs at one point during
54 the "religion" "debate". So did d. Our beliefs are NOT similar.
55 I am not convinced, she is. Etc, etc, etc....
56 
57 ALL: someone made a rather curious statement that I almost missed
58 (on the other disk). I don't remember that exact words, but it went
59 something like this: We have rule by the majority, therefore the
60 minorities only have the rights given by the majority WHICH CAN
61 BE TAKEN AWAY AT ANY TIME. 
62 Now I was under the impression that one of the things the US is
63 famed for is the idea that the majority DOESN'T have the right
64 to oppress the minority! (Of course, this shoots LARGE holes
65 in graduated income tax- but it doesn't affect a fixed percentage
66 tax or even the draft!)
67 ___________________________Leonard_____________________________
68 MEOW:  How did the county minions even find that you shared your home with
69  a cat?  My neutered male is a good friend to seven neighbors, carries my
70  phone number on his collar, and can't raise the license fee on his own.
71 What will he do?  What will he do?  Keep us posted on your experiences, please.
72 Dave
73 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
74 Mikey: the upload didn't work. Your system doesn't
75 respond is a predictable manner. I intend to lick this tho.
76 It'll be good practice for a auto download
77 prog I gotta write! Leonard
78 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
79 MIKEY, THANKS FOR GETTING RID OF MY UP-LOAD ATTEMPT.....I TRIED BUT WAS 
80 UNSUCESSFULL. THE PROGRAM WAS VIDTEX 3.0THE PERFORMANCE OF WHICH I AM NOT 
81 TERRIBLY PLEASED WITH.
82 
83 ANYWAY... THE POINT WAS TO REFUTE THE IDEA THAT "INFLATION WITH FULL EMPLOYMENT
84 WAS SUPERIOR TO MARGINAL EMPLOYMENT & NO INFLATION "
85 
86 AS WELL AS SUPPORT THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATIONS HANDLING OF THE ECONOMY
87 
88  THERE ARE NO SEGMENTS OF OUR ECONOMY THAT ARE INSULATED FROM THE RAVAGES OF 
89 INFLATION . BUT TO CONDEM AN ENTIRE NATION TO INFLATION TO PRESERVE MARGINALY
90 SUCESSFULL SEGMENTS OF OUR SOCIETY SO THEY MAY CONTINUE THEIR OVER-EXTENDED 
91 HAND TO MOUTH EXISTENCE IS CRIMINAL 
92 
93 AN OPINION.
94 
95 THE FOLLOWING ARE FACTS ( REFERENCES AVAILABLE )
96 
97 THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD->
98 
99 1 THE SINGLE LARGEST DROP IN THE VELOCITY OF M1 IN THE LAST 20 YEARS FOR THAT 
100 MATTER SINCE 1947. THIS HAS PROVIDED OUR ECONOMY WITH A MODERATE SHADOW OF S
101 STABILITY AND POTENTIAL ...................WHERE IS THE DOW NOW ?
102 
103 2. THE GROWTH IN MONEY SUPPLY HAS REMAINED WITHIN THE TARGET RANGES. EVEN WITH
104 THE ADVENT OF THESE VARIED FINANCIAL INSTRUMENTS ( BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE D.I.D.C.
105 ) IRAS,MMAS,91 DAY CDS,NOW ACCTS, SUPER NOW ACCTS ,ETC
106 
107 3. GNP HAS NOT SUFFERED AS GREAT A DECLINE AS WOULD BE EXPECTED DURING SUCH 
108 AN OVERALL RETRACEMENT IN THE ECOMOMY
109 
110 IN CONCLUSION I C
111 IN CONCLUSION I CANNOT FIND FAULT WITH THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATIONS STEWARDSHIP
112 OF OUR ECONOMY TO DATE.
113 I DO HOWEVER RECOGNIZE THAT IN YEARS TO COME THERE EXISTS THE POSSIBILITY OF 
114 RENEWED INFLATIONARY PRESSURE .
115 HOWEVER THE STEPS TAKEN TO DATE WERE NOT TAKEN LIGHTLY AND BY VIRTUE OF THAT 
116 FACT I FEEL THAT FUTURE ACTIONS WILL BE TAKEN WITH THE SAME DELIBERATION.
117 
118 TO QUOTE MARTIN FELDSTEIN
119 " IT IS PREMATURE TO CONCLUDE THAT RUNNAWAY INFLATION IS SAFELY BEHIND US "
120 
121                  <<ALEX>>
122 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
123 I think maybe we need to not use the Bible as a reference source.
124 I Learned in research paper writing that you can't use mythological
125 works as references....
126 *:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:
127 To:Cistop Mikey
128 Fm:Stan Dolson
129 Sj:US Digital
130 
131 How are things going with you guys??  What's new and what's not?
132 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////////////
133 GENTLEMEN,ALTHOUGH WE SEND VERY FEW MESSAGES ON THIS 
134 SYSTEM,WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW ONE TELLS THIS SYS.
135 TO PRINT LINES OUT IN 80 CHARECTERS.
136 MULTIPLE THANKS,
137 MA YUAN,KILLER OF GODS
138 WITH HELP FROM
139 NICHOLAS J.HAFLINGER
140 
141 BITCHEN TABS,EH!
142 
143 ^^^^  MA 80
144 
145 
146 THANKS,BUT...
147 WE ARE USING AN OSBORNE WITH A SMARTMODEM AND DUMB-
148 OPERATORS.WE WANT IT ALL TO COME OUT IN 80 CHARS.
149 "MA 80" DOES'NT WANT TO DO THAT.
150 THANKS AGAIN,
151 THE ABOVE GROUP
152 THAT LIKES TABS.
153 
154 P.S. WHO ARE YOU,O HELPFULL ONE?
155 
156 ////////////////////
157 
158 //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
159 
160 HAS ANYONE ARUOND HERE HEARD OF THE GAME "HAUNTED HOUSE"?
161 ITS MADE FOR A TRS-80 COMPUTER.ANYWAY, WHAT I NEED TO KNOW IS
162 ONCE I GET INSIDE THE HOUSE HOW DO I GET OUT? IF ANYONE 
163 KNOWS PLEASE LEAVE ME A MESSAGE ON HERE.
164 
165                                  JENNI
166 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
167 
168 HI, WHAT IS YOUR NAME? MINE IS PAULINE. I AM 16 AND WANT TO MEET
169 ANOTHER 16 YEAR-OLD.HERE IS MY NUMBER 649-9510. BYE.....
170 
171  TRY READING THE INSTRUCTIONS ! ! !
172 Mikey, could you please erase the above 69 lines of thrashing around so
173 that there will be more space for our useless arguments and ego-stroking?
174 HAVE NOT REALLY GOTTEN INTO THE SWING OF THINGS WITH BWMS YET BUT LOOK       
175 FORWARD TO GETTING INVOLVED AS TIME GOES ON.  WILL STAY IN THE BACKROUND EXCEPT
176 WHEN I FEEL I CAN CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING.  I AM NOT AS WELL VERSED AS MANY OF
177 YOU NOR AM I AS GREAT A WRITER AS MOST.
178 [][][][][][][CRM][][][][][][][][][][][]
179 END
180 OFF
181 Is this disk on the same BWMS we knew and loved two days ago???????????
182 HIOI,ALL! THIS IS LARRY. I'M NEW HERE SO ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRICIATED!. THANX
183 HEY,SYSOP!!!   WHAS@T SYSTEM ARE WE USING?   I'M ON A COMMODORE 64.
184 
185 nerds we get, nothing but nerds....
186 
187 What happened to the days when the first thing a newcomer learned was:
188 "When in trouble, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout, and hit
189    >> CONTROL C << !!"    mumble mutter mutter mumble......
190 ***************************************************
191 TO: ALL     RE: LOST MESSAGES
192 THERE HAS BEEN AN OCCASIONAL COMPLAINT ABOUT LOST MESSAGES ON THE SYSTEM.
193 THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS WHICH MIGHT CAUSE THIS, THE FIRST IS TO NOT EXIT
194 THE ENTER MODE BEFORE YOU HANG UP. THE DISK WILL NOT BE UPDATED UNTILL 
195 THE CONTROL C IS DONE. IN MOST CASES THIS WILL LEAVE THINGS PROPERLY SETUP.
196 OCCASIONALLY, (A BUG I NEVER FOND THE CAUSE OF) THE DISK IS NOT COMPLETLY
197 CLOSED OFF. A KNOWN CAUSE IS IF YOU ARE THE LAST ONE ON THE DISK (YOU 
198 ENTERED LINE 629) IN ORDER TO INSURE THAT THE DISK IS PROPERLY UPDATED,
199 USE THE 'OFF' COMMAND BEFORE YOU HANGUP. THIS MAKES SURE THE DISK IS
200 UPDATED (IT FORCES AN UPDATE). OF COURSE, THE OTHER POSSIBILITY OF LOSING
201 A MESSAGE IS FOR SOMEONE TO ERASE IT. IF I ERASE IT YOU WILL KNOW, BECAUSE
202 THE LINES WILL BE SCRUNCHED UP. BUT IF THE LINES ARE STILL THERE (THEY DON'T
203 PRINT OUT, BUT THE NUMBERS ARE USED.) THEN SOMEONE ELSE ERASED THE MESSAGE.
204 SO REMEMBER, ALWAYS TYPE OFF BEFORE YOU HANG UP TO INSURE SAVING YOUR MSG.
205 ********************** CISTOP MIKEY *********** 19 OCT 83 ****************
206 That's ok if the messages are lost, but what if I'm lost?
207  
208 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
209 
210 Leonard:  I'm glad to see you finally see it my way.  It was I (about 20 
211 disks ago) who suggested that the bible was a valid source for info
212 on christian doctrine but not the
213 validity of that doctrine.  As for
214 christian beliefs, they may or may not conform to that doctrine; I addressed
215 that subject only breifly.  As for your beliefs, I would not attempt to
216 identify them, as it is difficult to do so when your argument changes
217 179 degrees from week to week.  You have presented startling new evidence
218 for the existence of multiple personaliies.
219 
220                                                        Dirty
221 
222 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
223 DOM: Thanks for the chuckle on your assessment of 'new evidence'!  Such a novel
224  way to assassinate with tongue in cheek...Dave
225 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
226 
227 
228 
229 While it may seem , on a short term basis that we all consume as much as
230 we produce, over the long run this isn't so. We accumulate capital. A few
231 examples are: our language, money, telephone network, knowlege; individual
232 wealth. I put the society gains first, because they are availble to all.
233 To be a self made person would require not using the accululated capital
234 of society, and have no help from your parents.
235 Why did (or does) slavery exist? Simple, because we have strong inherent
236 drives which others can control, like the desire to live. Societies with
237 slavery have strong, severe, laws about what happens to a runaway slave,
238 and it is easier in the long run to accept. If all the slaves decide to
239 overthrow the existing society, they may be able to, but the secret of
240 keeping slaves is to prevent them from organizing, and this has been done.
241 As to my claim that the USA is the greatest, I do believe it is true. 
242 Most other countries are far behind us. A few are close to equalling us,
243 though, and you can include them as part of our utopia.
244 In answer to the claim that taxes and military are theft and slavery,
245 I can only apply the concept of an exchange of value: if you don't pay,
246 you have no right (right? sorry) to the other half of the deal: freedom
247 and all the rest of the utopia we have here. Merely being able to 
248 denouce the society, and its government is one of the things we pay for
249 through taxes and armies. Anon you are the parasite you denounce as noty
250 pulling his own weight!
251 More on my feeling toward the US.. It ain't perfect, not by a long
252 shot, it's only the best thing around. Our median income is by far the
253 highest of any large country, and we have very few restrictions on what
254 we can spend it on. Few shortages, good roads we are free to travel on,
255 even relatively low taxes. I could go on forever, just let me point out 
256 some comparisons: taxes in Sweden, try to get a telephone in Paris, or
257 buy a Bible in Moscow, or own land in Eastern Europe or mainlan China,
258 or be Black in South Africa. I feel we should do all we can to allow all
259 humans the rights and advantage we have here.
260 /////////////////BAD\\\\\\\/////////0530 am\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
261 
262 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
263 
264 BAD:  OK, in some material aspects I would agree that US has it's ad-
265 vantages over some other countries, but the extent to which this is true
266 is questionable.  Anyway, what concerns me most are the social (or
267 should I say antisocial) aspects.
268 For example:
269 How many countries have a higher crime rate?
270 How many countries have a higher violent crime rate?
271 How many countries have a higher divorce rate?
272 How many countries have a greater diversity of quasi religious organizations?
273 How many countries have a more severe juvenile delinquency problem?
274 How many countries have a more severe drug abuse problem?
275 How many countries have turkeys who leave the margin at 7 for the sole
276 purpose of irritating other users?
277 
278                                                   Dirty
279 
280 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
281 
282 |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~
283  
284    ******* ESTATE SALE *******
285 
286 Packard Drill Press (with table)
287 Lathe Tools
288 Hand Tools
289 75 hp Evinrude Outboard Motor
290 22 caliber Pistol
291 22 caliber Rifle with Scope
292 CB Transceivers with power supply
293 ~14 cu. ft. Upright Freezer
294 Miscellaneous other Appliances
295 RCA Color TV
296 Console AM/FM Stereo
297 Electronic Parts
298 Furniture
299 Men's XL Clothing
300 Lots of other Goodies!
301 
302 * 10am to 4pm Saturday Oct. 22
303   >>>>>  NO PRESALES  <<<<<
304 
305   7424 SE 46th Av.   Portland
306 
307 |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~
308 
309 And that's the truth, ssspspppplllllaaaaaauuuggghhhhhhhh!
310 '''''''''''''''''''''''''
311 To: *:*:*:    That is correct in MOST cases. However, mythological
312 works ARE proper references IF YOU ARE STUDYING MYTHOLOGY!!!!!!
313 
314 DOM:  Nonsense, I just keep clarifying misinterpreted statements.
315 ("That statement is non-operative") Besides, "So I contradict myself,
316 very well, I am large, I contain multitudes." (don't remember
317 who said it). As I said, one of the most common (if not THE most
318 common) errors here, is reading what you expect to see rather than
319 what was written. 
320 By the way, I could have sworn you were making a comment about
321 my beliefs? (Leonard & d believe the same thing, or something like that)
322 ________________________Leonard______________________________
323 ps Mikey, what kind of processor does BWMS use? & would it be
324 possible for me to obtain a copy of the source code?
325 _______________________________________________________________
326 The woods are lovely, dark and deep
327  but I have promises to keep,
328  and miles to go before I sleep.
329 
330 Remember that Sokolev, miles to go before I sleep...
331 
332 N. Dalchimsky
333 ############################################################################
334 Charles Bronson strikes again!         Ah, Hollywood.....
335 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
336 EXIT
337 
338 and on one final note, how many countries have people like DOM who bitch
339 and bitch and bitch about everything, but never do a damned thing to
340 improve it. In Russia, you would be sent to Siberia so fast it would
341 make your damn modem spin!
342 
343 #'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#
344 HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY
345 #'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#
346 
347 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
348      LEONARD & DOM: ON THE BIBLE, ONE MUST BE VERY SPECIFIC AS TO
349 WHICH BIBLE YOU QUOTE.  MANY OF THE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS HAVE
350 DIFFERENT VERSIONS, SOME MERELY ODD TRANSLATIONS, OTHERS WITH ENTIRE 
351 CHAPTERS DELETED (USUALLY REFERRED TO AS APOCRYPHAL).  SO "THE BIBLE" 
352 (MEANING ANY COPY YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE) IS NOT NECESSARILY A VALID
353 SOURCE ON CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, AS THESE DOCTRINES CAN BE DIFFERENT
354 FROM ONE DENOMINATION TO ANOTHER.                                      
355      BAD, I AGREE ON THE CONTRIBUTIONS TO SOCIETY QUESTION, AND CARRY 
356 IT ONE STEP FURTHER: ONLY RARE INDIVIDUALS (MICHELANGELO, DA VINCI,
357 EDISON, ETC.) CONTRIBUTE NEARLY AS MUCH TO THEIR CULTURE AND SOCIETY 
358 AS THEY HAVE ABSORBED FROM IT.  THE REST OF US BENEFIT FROM OUR
359 CULTURAL HERITAGE WHILE MAKING SMALL ADDITIONS.                        
360                                        
361      TO #'#'#'(ETC.):  YOU DON'T KNOW THAT DOM NEVER DOES ANYTHING TO 
362 IMPROVE SOCIETY, UNLESS YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY.  DO YOU?  IF NOT,
363 PLEASE AVOID SLANDER.                                                  
364      AARON, ON THE QUESTION OF UTOPIA, I DOUBT THAT WE WILL EVER
365 REACH UTOPIA UNTIL THE HUMAN RACE ALL BECOMES OF ONE MIND (NOT A
366 PLEASING PROSPECT).  WE ALL SEEM TO HAVE SUCH DIFFERING IDEAS OF WHAT 
367 IS GOOD AND PROPER FOR HUMANITY, SOME OF THEM DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED.  
368 SOME PEOPLE'S DEFINITION OF UTOPIA WOULD INCLUDE THE TOTAL ELIMINATION
369 OF OTHER SEGMENTS OF SOCIETY (SEE "HITLER").  UNTIL WE CAN COME UP WITH
370 A DEFINITION OF WHAT CONSTITUTES UTOPIA THAT IS SATISFYING TO ALL, I 
371 THINK WE WILL HAVE PROBLEMS REACHING IT.
372                                        
373      ALEX, COULD YOU TELL ME HOW A "HAND TO MOUTH EXISTENCE" COULD 
374 QUALIFY AS "OVER EXTENDED"?  ARE YOU SAYING THAT A PROPER EXTENSION OF
375 THEIR EXISTENCE WOULD BE DEATH BY STARVATION?
376                                                                        
377 "THEN LET THEM DIE, AND DECREASE THE SURPLUS POPULATION!"
378                   DICKENS         
379      
380      LEONARD, I THINK I MADE THE STATEMENT YOU'RE REFERING TO, THOUGH I
381 SAID NOTHING ABOUT MAJORITY RULE.  I DID SAY THAT RIGHTS ARE DEFINED BY
382 YOUR SOCIETY, AND I STAND BY IT.  THE 1951 SUPREME COURT DECISION RE. 
383 THE INTERNMENT OF THE JAPANESE DURING WWII IN ESSENCE STATED THAT THE
384 BILL OF RIGHTS IS REVOCABLE DURING TIMES OF NATIONAL EMERGENCY.  WE 
385 HAVE RECENTLY BACKED OFF FROM THAT STAND, BUT THE SUPREME COURT OPINION
386 HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED.  IT IS STILL THE POLICY OF OUR GOVERNMENT.  AND 
387 WHILE I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD ALL HAVE THE ABILITY TO LIVE OUR LIVES,
388 I HAVE ALSO TOURED DACHAU AND BUCHENWALD.  THE "RIGHTS" OF THOSE WHO 
389 DIED THERE WERE TAKEN AWAY BY THE RULE OF SOCIETY.  IT WAS WRONG, TERRIBLE,
390 EVIL, AN ABOMINATION, BUT IT HAPPENED.  WALK THROUGH THE "SHOWERS", VIEW
391 THE MASS GRAVES, SEE THE SOAP MADE FROM HUMAN FAT, THE LAMP-SHADES AND
392 BOOK COVERS MADE FROM HUMAN SKIN.  YES, I BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU CALL
393 "RIGHTS", BUT I SEE NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY EXIST APART FROM THE SOCIETY
394 IN WHICH THEY ARE FRAMED.                                              
395 
396 GOD, I'M DEPRESSED.                                                    
397 
398 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM-[][][][][][]
399 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]   1522   20-OCT-1983
400 
401 TO PAM:
402 
403 "I COULD HAVE TOLD YOU VINCENT...
404 
405 YOU DO HAVE A MARVELOUS WAY WITH IDEAS.  I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS
406 BEING ABRIDGED BY THE MAJORITY, BUT HOW CAN YOU DEFEND AGAINST THAT ?
407 TO A CHRISTIAN (I AM NOT, MERELY AGNOSTIC) THE PERFECT UTOPIA IS A DICTATORSHIP,
408 LED BY CHRIST DURING THE MILLENIUM TO COME.  THAT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF
409 VOTER APATHY AT LEAST.
410 
411 I FEEL THAT WE HAVE REACHED AS CLOSE TO UTOPIA AS WE WILL, BUT THAT IT IS ALWAYS
412 CHANGING.  NOTE THAT CHANGE IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD OR BAD, BUT CAN BE CHANGE MERELY
413 TO BE DIFFERENT.
414 
415 DO NOT DESPAIR, RISE ABOVE THE DEPRESSION.  WE (EDITORIAL WE) NEED YOUR INPUT.  
416 I APPRECIATE YOUR LUCIDITY, ALTHOUGH WE MAY HAVE DIFFERENT STARTING POINTS AND
417 CONSEQUENTLY MAY NOT EVER COME TO AGREEMENT.
418 
419 SMILE, THERE IS NOTHING TO HATE BUT HATE ITSELF.
420 
421 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]   DJJ   [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
422 
423 ########################################
424 TO DOM: IN REGARDS TO THOSE FOLK THAT LEAVE THE MARGIN SET AT 7 IT IS A COMMON
425 MISTAKE. I TOO DID IT TILL I REALIZED THAT ONE HAD TO USE A SPACE BETWEEN MA AND
426 76 RE MA 76. IF YOU PRINT MA76 IT WILL BE SET AT 7. NO I'M NOT GOING SOFT ON THECONSERVATIVES,
427 BUT WOULD LIKE TO BE REMEMBERED FOR OTHER THAN ARGUMENTIVE PROSE.
428 
429 ##################C.Y.M.#################################10/21 3:51PM###########
430 PS: YES, DOM, THERE IS SOME DISCREPENCY IN OUR CHOSEN INITIALS. SEEMS YOU WERE
431 HERE FIRST ERGO MY CHOICE OF C.Y.M. NOT TO WORRY! EH?
432 
433 #################C.Y.M.#################################STILL###################
434     DIRTY YOU MAY BE RIGHT ABOUT THE FACTS ,BUT ISN'T IT GRATE?
435 ------------------------REV MOSES----------
451 Now, now, BAD, I think that your fingers must be in fifth gear while your mind is in neutral.  You should have learned your 
452 lesson from PAM.  You stated that you thought I am a 'parasite.'  Well, a dictionary definition of 'parasite' is: 'Person
453 who lives on others without making any useful and fitting return.  (I am not including the biological definition of 
454 the word since that is not relevant to the current discussion.)  But, BAD, since you have little/no information on either my 
455 level of production or consumption, you have no basis for coming to any conclusion concerning my being or not being a
456 parasite!  So any such claim by you merely demonstrates that you are ready, willing and able to make claims for which
457 you have no factual support.  (You still have an opportunity to withdraw your claim, or support it.)
458 And if my production actually exceeds my consumption, then not only am I not a parasite on society, society is in fact a 
459 parasite on me.  It is clear from statistics that a large fraction of the population produces more than they consume,
460 so this is a common situation.
461 You've said that people have an obligation to society.  But you haven't told anyone the extend of this obligation.
462 Quantify, please.  Preferably in dollar amounts, or if that is too specific, at least describe what we are required to do
463 for everyone else.  Is this obligation equal for all people, or are some people 'more equal than others.'?  Am I equally
464 obligated to you compared to someone in another state or country?  Is it possible to ever repay this obligation?
465 Some descriptive answers to the above questions would help us out a lot.  As is, we don't really know the specifics of
466 your claim, and therefore can't begin to properly analyze them.  As Lord Kelvin said, anything we can't quantify, we know
467 very little about.
468 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::
469 P.S.  Do you believe that this is 'The best of all possible worlds'?
470 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
471   maybe "utopia" isn't the right word, PAM. How about a society where 
472 everyone is happy? I see this atainable..................
473                                                     Aaron
474 ps.. BAD: when is a good time to call you?...re: AMA and DST and straddle...
475 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
476 
477 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
478 
479 PAM:  Thank you immensely for your kind defense.  The unsigned person
480 was probably referring to my comments regarding the shortcomings of the
481 US.  Unfortunately I think there are a number of persons in the US and else-
482 where who believe its unethical to consider the negative aspects of ones
483 own country.  This hyper-nationalism
484 is one of the prime goals of military training.  If there is to be any pos-
485 sibility of improving a society, though, it must be concious of these 
486 aspects.  If there is any possibility of raising that conciousness by 
487 bitching, then I bitch.  For example, on the religious issue, I have often
488 heard Christians say something to the effect, "I would be so happy if I
489 could influence just one person to give his life to Christ."   Although
490 my beliefs differ radically from theirs, I respect their efforts to make
491 what they consider improvements for other individuals and for society.
492 I, too, hope that someday, what I say will influence someone to abandon
493 Christianity, because I sincerely believe that it is at the root of the
494 vast majority of this countries problems, and by doing so, I would be 
495 contributing to society.  I have very
496 little respect for those who just don't give a damn about humankind and
497 are content jwith mere survival; but those who have exerted an effort 
498 to consider the human condition and formulate and express their opinions
499 thereupon, I respect; whether or not those opinions coincide with my own.
500 In consideration of the nature of this BBS the above respect applies to
501 just about everyone using the system.  In fact the person complaining about
502 my lack of contributions is one of the few who have used the system without.
503 contributing his own opinions (at least not constructive ones).
504 As for Utopia, I tend to agree with you (PAM) that it is probably unat-
505 tainable on the basis that there are as many different concepts of Utopia
506 as there are people.  Also, though, even if these concepts do converge
507 someday, as they creations of the human intellect, they will probably
508 continue to evolve as do humans.
509 In other words, as the human condition improves, so will human aspirations.
510  
511 Aaron:  I doubt that happiness will ever be universal, but more than this,
512 I often question whether happiness is the essence of life.  Is universal
513 hapiness actually desirable?  I have mentioned before (I think) that I
514 identify rathar strongly with Japanese culture; this is one example.  
515 It is a value shared by most Americans that total happiness is desirable.
516 I suspect that this may partially explain the drug abuse problem.
517 Anyway, Japanese tend to ask questions like:
518 How could light be appreciated if there was never darkness?
519 How can warmth be appreciated if it is never cold?
520 How does one recognize comfort if there is never pain?
521 How can happiness be experienced if there is no sorrow?
522 I believe that such contrasts are the elements which discriminate "life"
523 and "survival".
524 So my idea of Utopia (for lack of a better word) is a time and place where
525 the experience of life to it's fullest extent is universal.  
526 
527 BAD:  My apologies if as CYM suggested, leaving the margins at 7 was
528 accidental.  Unfortunately, I never notice this until after I start entering
529 text, because anything over 76 is no problem.
530 
531 Leonard:  If I ever made any comments regarding your beliefs it was way
532 back when I was inexperienced at BWMS BBSing and I naively assumed that
533 your argument to some degree represented your beliefs.
534 
535 Moses:  I'm not sure which facts your referring to but if its the mentioned
536 American social problems, I agree, it's extremely grating.
537 
538                                                  Dirty Ol' Man
539 
540 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
541 
542 
543 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
544 
545 PAM,
546       I AM AFRAID YOU HAVE TAKEN MY ILLUSTRATION FAR TOO LITERALLY. THERE ARE
547 A LARGE NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS ( CORPORATIONS ) WHO MAINTAIN LIFESTYLES 
548 ( BUSINESS PRACTICES ) FAR ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THEIR INCOMES DICTATE.
549 LIVING FROM ONE PAYCHECK TO THE NEXT SPENDING 60% TO 70% OF THEIR DISPOSABLE
550 INCOME SERVICING DEBT ( INSTALLMENT , REVOLVING , CORPORATE ) WITH NO REGARD
551 AS TO THE FUTURE IMPLICATION OF THEIR ACTIONS. THESE ARE THE "MA
552       "MARGINALLY  SUCESSFULL SEGMENTS "
553 I SPOKE OF AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SCREAM THE LOUDEST WHEN THEIR ECONOMIC 
554 CONDITION IS THREATENED. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE WILLING TO SACRIFICE (REAL)
555 ECONOMIC STABILITY AND GROWTH TO MAINTAIN THEIR LIFESTYLES. TO THEM INFLATION
556 OFFERS THE ONLY WAY OUT. THEIR " RATIONAL REASON ".............BUY NOW
557 ........................BUY MORE NOW
558 .........................IT WILL ONLY COST MORE LATER...
559 
560 IF THEY ONLY KNEW HOW CORRECT THEY ARE .
561 
562 CURRENTLY OVERALL CORPORATE LIQUIDTY STANDS AT 1.4% THE LOWEST SINCE THE 
563 1929-1934 PERIOD. CORPORATE DEBT IS OVER 224 BILLION . THE SAVINGS RATE OF 
564 AMERICANS IS LESS THAN 3%. THESE THREE FACTS SEEM TO INDICATE WE ARE COURTING
565 AN ECONOMIC DISASTER THE SCALE OF WHICH IS UNKNOWN IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND
566 IT IS A PITY OUR OBJECT LESSON OF THE THIRTYS HAS BEEN FORGOTTEN SO EASILY
567 
568 
569 DOM,
570      BRAVO ! !   BRAVO !!
571 
572 I TOO SHARE THE THOUGHT THAT NATIONALISM AND ITS CHAUVINISTIC SUBSETS OF 
573 PATRIOTISM , RELIGION , RACIAL SUPERIORITY AND POLITICAL DOGMA ARE AT THE 
574 ROOT , IF NOT THE CAUSE , OF A VAST MAJORITY OF INJUSTICES THE WORLD OVER.
575 IN MY OPINION THE PATH TO OUR EVOLUTIONARY SURVIVAL IS TO RECOGNIZE THESE 
576 TRAITS AS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO THE SUCESS OF OUR SPECIES AND TAKE THE FIRST
577 STEPS TOWARDS AN EGALITARIAN SOCIETY.
578 
579 
580                  <<ALEX>>
581 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
582 
583 Can any of you willing theorists bring your discussions from on high to a level
584 at which ONE individual, this time, this very locale, can ACT (not merely
585 mentally gyrate) to actually nudge our present societal structures from a 
586 disagreeable condition toward one less noxious.  Past BWers have failed to
587 accept this challenge to performance!Dave
588 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
589 to: ALL
590 re: Modems
591 I read a message on another BBS from a supervisor from PNB. He said that he
592 has not heard anything about a surcharge and that the PNB does not have any
593 equipment that can detect the presence of a modem on a customers line.
594  
595 ***************************************
596 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
597  DOM: Maybe a less rigororus definition of "happiness" is in order. It is 
598 true that without a baseline degree of relative "state of happy", things
599 are rather unclear. Would you argue that some people on the planet are
600 intrinsicly (by situation) unhappy? Starving people in India? Suppressed
601 /martyred types in Iran? Refugees from war-torn countries? Possibly. Then
602 again we are faced with a dilemma; what about the people on welfare in
603 America. "Intrinsicly" unhappy? Probably not. But surely we can say that
604 the people starving in India are not "experiencing life to the fullest 
605 extent". What we can say about welfare recipents is just that they are
606 "experiencing life to a limited extent". In either a "Utopia" or a 
607 "place/time where everyone is happy" I can concieve of welfare recipients,
608 but not starving Indians. I think that this type of "moderate" Utopia
609 would be achievable in the near future.
610 Aaron
611 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
612 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
613 
614 DOM;  HOW MANY OTHER COUNTRIES GIVE YOU THE FREEDOM TO GET A DIVORSE 
615 WHENEVER YOU FEEL LIKE IT OR BELONG TO OR START A QUASI RELIGIOUS 
616 ORGANIZATION.  THE DRUGS, THE CRIME, THEJUVINILE PROBLEMS ARE A PRODUCT
617 OF A FREE SOCIETY.  MOST PEOPLE ARE LIKE KIDS AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO TAKE 
618 CARE OF THEMSELVES AND, LIKE MY KIDS NEED A BABYSITTER AND SHOULD NEVER 
619 BE LEFT ALONE.  BUT TO ASSIGE A BABYSWITTER TO EVERYONE PUTS US INTO A 
620 FORM OF GOVERNMOENT THAT I'M NOT WILLING TO LIVE IN.  
621 I DO APPRECIATE YOUR OUTLOOK ON LIFE, BUT FEEL THAT LOOKING FOR TOALAL 
622 HAPPINESS WILL NEVER HAPPEN, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT IT IN ITSELF 
623 WILL CAUSE SOCIETY TO ROT AND FESTER INITS HAPPINESS.  WE ARE NOT LIKE CATS
624 WHO ARE CONTENT TO SIT AROUND ALL DAY DOING NOTHING.  THE TRULY HAPPY 
625 PEOPLE I KNOW AND ADMIRE ARE THOSE WHO STRIVE  TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, EVEN TO
626 THE POINT OF BEING A WORKAHOLIC, IT GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO WORK FOR IN THE 
627 THEIR LIFETIME.  EVERYONE NEEDS GOALS, AND EUTOPIA IS AND SHOULD BE AN 
628 UNATTAINALBE GOAL.
629 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

