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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 18 AUG 83 ***************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
26 
27 
28      Oh sublime one!
29   
30    
31         Your passing has left this fair
32    inn without hope....Yet the news of 
33    your return spreads quickly to even
34    such as our establishment,be it far
35     off the highway as it is...
36  
37  
38    Fill once again these halls with 
39  your melodious voice,and grace the 
40  patrons with your delicate beauty,so
41  as to revive these tired sectors to
42  their once lively and gay demeanor...
43 
44 
45         We can only hope that my humble
46       plea will not fall upon silent 
47       print-heads,as we are desparate,
48       and you are our life-spring....
49 
50    
51   
52                     Aaron of old.....
53 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
54 
55 
56 F.O.A.D.      AARON
57 
60 What is this garbage about "the government did...."? In America who is the 
61 government? It might be valid to say "an official of the government", or 
62 better give his name. The government is not a single, monolithic faceless
63 thing, it is a large group of people, hired by people we elect. They are
64 (or can be made) accountable to US, the people. As to the article in the
65 paper, as I haven't seen it, I can't discuss it directly, but the comments
66 we have a "right" to study anything. Please quote chapter and verse in the
67 constitution, or applicable statutes giving this 'right'. Not everything 
68 called a "class" is merely education, it could be so called to cover the
69 fact that it is an attempt to overthrough the legal government by force, or
70 a meeting of thieves.
71 ...Paul, my present photos are usually scenics or still lifes, with a large
72 dose of abstract, or things I consider beautiful, such as flowers. (Also
73 includes computer video graphics.) 35 mm strictly, usually slides. And you??
74 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
75 Do we have a right to learn, or to be creative? Who owns ideas involved?
76 Case in point: a photo of a statue. Is the photo a 'copy' of the statue,
77 with rights to the sculptor, or is it an art form of its own, with rights
78 to the photographer, or is it the property of the subject of statue, or???
79 How about using it to copy the statue for sale in competition with the
80 original sculpture? What if it is "altered" to show a "personal statement"?
81 //////////\\\\\\\\
82 ***************************************************************
83      The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 
84 Hamfair/Computer Show Aug. 27 9-6 and  Aug. 28 9-3 at MT.
85 Hood Community College. There will be comerical diaplays 
86 food and swap tables (for radio and computer items only)
87     The admission is $2.00 ,12 and under free. Swap tables
88 are $5.00. For more information contact Bob at 771-xxxx
89 *************************Bob********************************
90 
91 
92                                        F.O.A.D     ?
93 
94 
95 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
96 
97          HANLON'S RAZOR
98 Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
99 
100 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
101 /uN@@
102 Well, elberich, you've done it again.  To my comment, "forcing a minoriy
103 to cooperate in a venture of the majority" you said, "A better definition of
104 Democracy one could not ask for."  Let's see, is this really true?
105 Consider this:  Let's have a vote.  The MAJORITY, the white guys, vote
106 to again enslave the MINORITY, the blacks.  All fair and square, right? One
107 man one vote, right?  After all, the blacks can participate in the voting,
108 right?  And if they object, ask them why they don't believe in DEMOCRACY, right?
109 Or another vote.  Let's vote on a NATIONAL RELIGION.  Everybody has his
110 own vote, but when the tally is over, everyone has to adopt the chosen national
111 religion.  No fair sneaking around worshipping another diety, anyone doing that
112 will be locked up for OPPOSING DEMOCRACY, right?  You have to go to the chosen
113 church whenever they say, without fail.
114 
115 While we're on the subject, let's have a vote on continuing Hitler's
116 escapades, and gas the Jews.  Remember, we're gonna have a vote. (That's
117 democracy!)  And what right do the Jews have to complain?  They can vote, too!
118 And if they lose, too bad.  They have to sacrifice for the majority!
119 
120 What's wrong here?  Why do each of the three preceeding votes precisely
121 satisfy your criterion for Democracy (majority vote) but are so clearly wrong?
122 After all, if we are to support democracy, it should have something to say about
123 the majority abusing the minority.  But your definition doesn't even address
124 this question.
125 
126 Until you are willing to accept the idea that the majority does not
127 have any right to coerce the minority on a large number of subjects, you will
128 continue to believe that it is right to tax people who choose to attend private
129 schools.  As for the term 'knee-jerk liberal', while it may be accurate, I 
130 hardly ever use it because most 'knee-jerk liberals' tend to think that anyone
131 calling them that must be some sort of conservative, and dismiss the description
132 as a poorly guided insult.  Ironically, closest description of me might be a
133 'classical liberal', one who believes in the rights of the individual, and
134 not the state., or even the majority.  A good current term for this is a
135 Libertarian.
136 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
137 
138 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
139 OK Mr. Tax Rebel, what would you have our country do. 'Let's not have anyone
140 pay any taxes. Let's all live like good little citizens. Who needs government,
141 and all it does for us. Who needs police and roads and social security
142 and national security and fire protection and libraries and schools and
143 everything else our taxes pay for. You should feel damn lucky you can even
144 be saying some of the things you are saying. In many countries, such talk would
145 be deemed traitorious, and you would be sent to the lower parts of the earth.
146 You call paying taxes theft. OK...we get rid of taxes, and what happens, our
147 society falls apart. What do you suggest we do instead of pay taxes.
148 Let's play anarchy!!! everyone for themselves. Shoot you neighbor if he tries
149 to steal something you own. Come on Mr. Tax Rebel, lets hear your great
150 ideas. And no more ambigious statements like 'Paying taxes is like theft'. What
151 a simplistic way of putting things!
152 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
153 
154 to "============"
155 I read the article about the student arrests. Are YOU aware
156 of the fact that Khaddaffi (sp?) has been trying to get his hands
157 on a nuclear weapon for some time? The more I hear about him, the
158 more I suspect that he is trying his best to be another Hitler!
159 It may not have been "right" to arrest those students, but is it
160 "right" to teach them how to build nuclear devices or maintain
161 aircraft, if these skills may be used against us and our allies?
162 There are no easy answers to moral & ethical questions, if there
163 were we would have had the answers YEARS ago!
164 I suspect I know who the "TAX REBEL" is and thus I remeber
165 most of his comments from a series of disks on taxation about a
166 year ago. One thing I noticed is that one of his opponents said
167 "if they can afford to send their kids to private schools, then
168 they can afford the taxes". Well, I'm sorry but that is BULLSHIT!
169 You have what is known as "the deep pockets syndrome". They may NOT
170 be able to afford BOTH the taxes AND the private school. This
171 same syndrome is responsible (in part) for high insurance rates. 
172 You know, tell the jury that the defendant is insured, and they'll
173 give HUGE awards. After all, everbody knows the insurance co. has
174 LOTS of money. This means that they insurance rates go up EVERY
175 time one of these outrageous awards is given. If you need a simpler
176 explanation: Just because someone can afford something you can't
177 doesn't mean his finances are unlimited!
178 Since the taxes in question are supposed to provide for
179 education, why not allow deduction of the money that will be
180 SAVED because the taxpayers kid ISN'T in public school? After all,
181 you did say something about "paying his FAIR share" didn't you?
182 As for DEMOCRACY, I recently read an applicable comment:
183 the main difference between democracy as practiced in America &
184 in the USSR, is that we recognize that the majority does not have
185 the right to oppress the minority. 
186 Remember, we were set up as a REPUBLIC, NOT a DEMOCRACY. (not
187 the either term has a sufficiently precise meaning to be of any
188 use!)
189 Another justification for that tax credit: most private
190 schools seem to have higher standards (and to turn out "better
191 educated" graduates) than public schools. Since we all agree that
192 education is important, we should give the credit since this person
193 is making sure of a "better" education for his child.
194 
195 If you want arguments for the opposing view, just check
196 the papers.
197 ___________________________________Leonard_______________________
198 
199 I am continuously amazed to find that others feel I should use
200 my hard earned money to support their favorite cause. Saying
201 that it is "My duty" to do so. Sir, I'll have you know that it
202 is NOT my duty to serve your causes. I sweat blood to get where
203 I am today, and I'll not have someone else take my hard earned
204 money and postion without a fight. I do not mind paying my fair
205 share for schooling of children, as long as it is FAIR! To say
206 that I should pay far in excess of what others pay for the same
207 thing I do NOT find fair! Yes, I went to a public school, and I
208 consider the tax I am paying to be just repayment for that
209 schooling minimal value that it was. Most of my money was
210 earned not as a result of that schooling, but rather was a
211 result of my own hard work and self study to get where I am. As
212 for your inuendo that unless I pour out all my hard earned
213 money for your cause that all the poor people in the world will
214 starve because I refused, you can take your 'guilt trip' and
215 STUFF IT. I will spend my money my own way for my OWN causes.
216 I earned that money, and I feel that I have a right to decide
217 how I spend it not someone else. You seem to think that just
218 because I have enough money to live comfortably that it was
219 handed to me on a silver platter. NOTHING could be futher from
220 the truth. As I stated earlier, I sweated blood to get here,
221 if you want to give money away sir I suggest you sweat a
222 little blood and make your own money to give away, but then
223 that would be too hard wouldn't it? You would rather sit back
224 and say how wrong it is for me to not support your cause.
225 @@@@@@@ An Irate Taxpayer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
226 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
227 
228 *************************************************************
229 Boy, I'll say he's irate! whewwww....
230 **** CISTOP MIKEY STAYING OUT OF THE WHOLE THING **** 14 AUG 83 ****
231 ******************************************************************
232 
233 And now for something completely different.......
234 -----=====-----=====-----
235 The CORKBOARD BBS is up and running
236 in a test mode.  If you remember the
237 NNBBS, it's us.  Just a different name.
238 Right now, we are in a test stage...we
239 would like anyone who wants to to call.
240 The number is 654-xxxx.  We got our old
241 number back because the guy who had it
242 before got tired of getting all of  those
243 strange calls......???
244 
245 Well, give it a call, and see what happens....
246  
247 Signed,
248      Stan Dolson
249      Van Perley
250       ---Sysops
251 ================================================================================
252 
253 LENNY,LENNY,LENNY
254 
255 
256 IF HIS ROYAL INEPTIPITUDE KADAFFI WAS THE ONE ARRESTED I DON'T THINK ANY ONE
257 ON THE FACE OF EARTH WOULD WOULD COMPLAIN .... HOWEVER THE OBJECTION I RAISE
258 IS OGROSS GENERALITIES. IF THE STUDENTS WERE ARRESTED FOR SOME ACTIVITY 
259 THAT IS DIRECTLY CONTRARY TO THE INTEREST OF OUR COUNTRY THEN LET IT BE STATED
260 SO.... NOT SOME NEBULOUS HOUSE RESOULITION THAT PROHIBITS FORIGN NATIONALS 
261 FROM STUDYING SOMRE CURRICULUMS THAT COULD BE USED AGAINST OUR "NATIONAL 
262 INTERESTS"..... THOSE TYPES OF ACTS REMIND ME TOO MUCH OF THE INTERNMENT OF THE
263 JAPANESE DURING WW II ....AND NOW ARE JUST MARGINALY ADDRESSING .
264 
265 THESE OVER-REACTIONS IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY MUST CEASE....OUR OWN
266 FREEDOMS MAY HANG IN BALANCE .... IN YEARS TO COME 
267 
268 THINK ABOUT IT....
269 
270 ================================================================================
271 
272 ATTENTION STAN DOLSON!!!!!!!
273 I called the Corkboard BBS and I couldn't log off! What you need
274 to do before you type an "AT H0", send a "+++" to the modem
275 first. This should correct your problem. Good luck and thanks!
276 
277                          Chris Bradley
278 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
279 
280 WELL, THE GREAT TAX DEBATE SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED INTO A SITUATION WITH
281 2 SEPARATE CAMPS.  THOSE WHO SAY "I'VE GOT MINE, JACK, SO BACK OFF!!!", 
282 SAYING THAT THEY HAVE EARNED WHAT THEY HAVE AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE
283 WORLD SHOULD JUST F*** OFF AND DIE (THE SELFISH ONES), AND A CAMP THAT
284 IS OF THE OPINION THAT THE HAVES OF THE WORLD HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO
285 THE HAVE-NOTS (THE GUILTY ONES).  I DON'T THINK THAT ANYTHING WILL BE 
286 ACCOMPLISHED BECAUSE THE TWO CAMPS HAVE TOTALLY DIFFERENT ASSUMPTIONS
287 ABOUT THE WORLD.  THE FIRST GROUP FEELS THAT ALL ACTION IS BASED ON SELF
288 INTEREST, AND THAT NOTHING IS IMPORTANT OTHER THAN THEIR CREATURE
289 COMFORTS AND THEIR CUTE LITTLE BOTTOMS. THE OTHER GROUP SEEMS TO FEEL
290 THAT THOSE THAT HAVE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE THAT DON'T, AND ARE GUILTY 
291 ABOUT IT.  WHEN A PRIORI ASSUMPTIONS ARE SO DIFFERENT, A CONCLUSION IS
292 NOT LIKELY TO BE REACHED.  MY IDEA?  I THINK THAT BOTH SIDES ARE
293 PIG-HEADED.  BUT, IF IT CAME DOWN TO IT, I THINK THAT I WOULD TRUST THE
294 GUILTY GROUP MORE THAN THE SELFISH GROUP.  AT LEAST THEY SEEM TO HAVE
295 CONSCIENCES.  THE SELFISH GROUP WOULD DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IF THEY
296 COULD BENEFIT FROM IT.  SO C'MON, PEOPLE, LET'S HAVE A CHANGE OF SUBJECT.
297 
298 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
299 
300 TO: '[][][][]'
301 A bit extreme don't you think? But basicly I would have to
302 agree with you that the two 'camps' are intractable.
303 Unfortunately, they tend to feed on each other, the more the
304 'have nots' complain about the 'haves', the greater the cry
305 from the 'haves' about the 'have nots'. I feel that both sides
306 have some degree of validity, but I myself if I had to choose
307 would probably go with the 'selfish ones' at least you know
308 what their motives are, and know what to expect from them.
309 ***** The In Sane Scientist ******************************
310 
311 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
312 
313 ACTUALLY, I DOUBT THAT ANYONE ON THIS SYSTEM COULD EVEN COME CLOSE TO
314 QUALIFYING AS A "HAVE NOT".  THE USERS OF TERMINALS AND PERSONAL
315 COMPUTERS ARE GENERALLY WELL OFF, OR AT LEAST COMFORTABLE.  I WILL SAY
316 THAT I'M SURPRISED THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WOULD DENY AN EDUCATION TO SOMEONE 
317 THAT CAN'T AFFORD IT.  I SHOULDN'T BE, THOUGH.  IF THE SIXTIES WAS THE
318 DECADE OF "SOCIAL CONSCIOUSNESS", AND THE SEVENTIES THE "ME DECADE", THE  
319 EIGHTIES SO FAR LOOKS LIKE THE "MINE DECADE".  EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE
320 LOOKING OUT FOR THEMSELVES, AND WHO CARES ABOUT ANYONE ELSE. AND IF YOU
321 THINK THAT I'M EXTREME, LOOK AT THE AD HOMINEM ARGUMENTS OF THE ANTI-TAX
322 GUY ABOVE. NOW THAT'S EXTREME!!!!!
323 
324 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][]
325 
326 That depends on your view point, given the comments by the other side
327 of the debaters,  I would have to say it sounds more like the
328 "GIMME DECADE".
329 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
330 
331 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
332 
333 THE "GIMME DECADE"? YES, YOU'RE RIGHT.  GIMME A CHANCE, GIMME A FAIR BREAK, 
334 GIMME SOME OF THAT OL' ROCK & ROLL (OOPS, EXCUSE ME, I JUST CAN'T MAINTAIN
335 SOMETIMES). ONCE AGAIN, NOBODY IS SAYING "GIMME" AS MUCH AS THEY ARE SAYING 
336 GIVE THEM. AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, NONE OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A FREE RIDE,
337 OR WELFARE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A MINIMUM EDUCATION SO THAT THESE PEOPLE
338 CAN STAY OFF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS. TO PARAPHRASE THE
339 COMMERCIALS, YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM NOW, OR YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM LATER.
340 
341 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][]
342 
343       STEWART'S LAW OF RETROACTION
344 
345 It is easier to get forgiveness than it
346        is to get permission.
347 
348 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
349 
350 Yes, that is the definition of democracy: vote of the majority. For REAL!!
351 We can afford to let minorities or individuals go their own way, though, 
352 because we are very rich, and very law abiding. We believe that individuals
353 have rights, and vote (democracy, remember) to allow these rights. The vote
354 of the majority can remove the rights. We can do this because we can afford
355 to. A poorer society might not be able to afford it; in primitive Eskimo
356 culture, which was basicly communal, a shirker was simply frozen out of
357 society by being ignored. He could still take what ever he needed, but often
358 did not and just moved to another town. I would not want to bet on his chances
359 in a tight situation, because the community often couldn't afford to support
360 a drone. In the US we can afford deviations from the norm, and allow them,
361 within limits. Even here, though, if you get in the way enough, you will find
362 society against you.
363 As to the diference between "democracy" here and in the USSR, the diference
364 is that here it is real; while in the USSR, the vote is prerigged. When there
365 is only one name on the ballot, and only the votes for that one are counted,
366 a 99% turnout, with 98% voting for the only candidate doesn't mean much.
367 
368 Kadafi? Megolomanic, surely. However, in which arab country do women vote?
369 Or go to real schools, or hold public office, or serve in the armed forces?
370 He is probalby better than most of what he is trying to overthrow.
371 No, I don't approve his methods.
372 
373 All: please note the diference between legal and moral.
374 ////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
375 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
376 Personally, I think it's all a commie plot!
377 
378                            TRON
379 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
380 PAM, I was trying to find some sort of middle ground in my comments
381 regarding a deduction/credit/whatever for putting your kids thru
382 private school. I STILL don't see how allowing the guy a credit
383 of the portion of his EDUCATIONAL tax bite equal to the portion
384 that would be paying for his kid (if his kid was in public school)
385 is "denying someone an education". If he can afford to put his kid
386 thru a private school, there will still be money left after this
387 "credit"! I am NOT saying that he can deduct the cost of the private schooling.
388 I'm saying he can deduct WHAT THE STATE IS SAVING because his kid
389 isn't in a public school. I do not believe that this has ever
390 been seriously suggested outside of the current discussions.
391 Most of the tax credit proposals you hear about are "tutition
392 refunds". My suggestion isn't. 
393 BAD: try again, WE can't vote to remove peoples' rights
394 (at least not their CONSTITUTIONAL rights). The SENATE would
395 have to vote on an amendment, then if it passed the STATE LEGISLATURES
396 would vote on it. At NO time do the VOTERS get to say anything
397 about it. As I keep saying THIS IS A REPUBLIC! We have a lot of
398 democratic trappings, but when you get down to the nitty-gritty
399 were are NOT a DEMOCRACY. (If you read your history, and the
400 constitution etc, you will see that they never intended us to be
401 a democracy.)
402 To "======", that "vague resolution" went after people
403 learning aircraft maintenance & construction and NUCLEAR ENGINEERING. Or didn't
404 you read that far? By the way, these are FOREIGN NATIONALS we are
405 talking about, NOT US citizens, so your internment analogy doesn't
406 apply. Since I have not seen a copy of the resolution, I can't
407 comment on it, but what has been done so far does not seem to be
408 all that terrible. The students were arrested AND RELEASED. The
409 Immigration service seems to have avoided abuses, as far as I can
410 tell (or don't you consider the above-mentioned courses to be things
411 that we don't need to teach Khaddafi's subjects?) As to Khaddafi's
412 rule in Libya, remember he is (or was, my info isn't up to date)
413 sheltering IDI AMIN! Also remember that Chamberlain et al thought
414 that Hitler wasn't all that bad.
415 ______________________________Leonard_______________________
416 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
417 SOUNDS GOOD, LEO. I GUESS THAT THE EXACT DEFINITION OF WHAT YOU WERE
418 PROPOSING EXCAPED ME. YOUR IDEA SOUNDS A LOT BETTER THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE
419 PAPERS OR HEARD FROM THE MOUTHS OF OUR "LEADERS". AND WE SEEM TO HAVE 2 KIND
420 SHIRKERS. THOSE THAT CAN'T (OR WON'T) PAY THEIR WAY, AND THOSE (LIKE OUR TAX
421 REBEL) WHO FEEL THEY SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM ANY TAXES OR OTHER RESPONSIBLITIES.
422 WHAT TO DO WITH SOMEONE WHO FEELS NO REPONSIBILITY TO SOCIETY? WE CAN'T
423 DO WHAT YOUR ESKIMOS DID. OF COURSE, THE I.R.S. HAS LONG ARMS, AND LOVES A
424 FIGHT. IF OUR TAX REBEL CARRIES HIS THEORIES OUT IN PRACTICE, WE
425 WON'T BE HEARING A LOT FROM HIM IN THE FUTURE.
426 
427 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][]
428 
429 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
430 Again Mr. Tax Rebel. So you sweated blood to get where you are. And the
431 schooling you received was minimal eh? Well talk about BullShit! Everyone
432 likes to brag that they are selftaught. Everyone likes to brag that they
433 didn't learn much in school, but after school was over, they taught themselves
434 everything they know. If I have ever heard a crock of shit this is it.
435 Come on...get off this thing about schooling being minimal. And just what do
436 you consider fair in paying your taxes? What is your twisted definition
437 of fair? This I have to hear!
438 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
439 
440 Several of you seem to feel that any alternative to the current tax-support
441 process for public schooling equates to denial for certain classes of citizens.
442 Can't you imagine that a system can be found to indeed insure the opportunity
443 for public education for those who want it, without unduly burdening those who
444 choose another schooling method for themselves?!  I still seek value for my
445 expenditures, whether taxes or discretionary consumption;  if public education
446 is as good and as fiscally sound as it can be, then I have no complaint. 
447 Otherwise, I want to help reform wasteful, non-effective teaching situations.
448 AARON: I applaud your observation on the importance of seeing government 
449 services performed or botched by individuals, not by some nameless blob.
450 All policies are formed by people with names, all dollars spent, all discipline
451 meted out by individuals who, in my thinking, must be held accountable even tho'
452 they may be elected, or may be low-paid, or may be "political royalty".
453 SCHOOL DEBATERS:  Thanks for your comments...they are grist for mental mills.
454 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
455 am I doing this right?? I mean I never tried this system before and personally
456 I don't like it. Why can't this system be like others?? pms or bit bucket are ea
457 easy to understand and easy to use.  I don't like this system and I say a change
458 is needed.
459 
460 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
461 WELL,WELL,
462    THE EDUCATION DEBATE SEEMS TO HAVE COME DOWN TO A DEBATE ABOUT WHO 
463 SHOULD PAY. NO MORE WHAT,HOW, OR WHY TO TEACH. THINGS DO GERERALLY GET
464 AROUND TO WHO PICKS UP THE CHECK, DON'T THEY.
465    GIVING IT UP SEEMS APPROPRIATE TO ME. IT WAS FUN WHILE IT LASTED, BUT IT
466 SEEMS TO BE OVER.
467    GENETIC ENGINEERING MIGHT BE FUN AS A TOPIC, AS IT PROBABLY IS MORE IM-
468 PORTANT IN THE LONG RUN THAN THE CYBERNETIC REVOLUTION. AND POTENTIALLY,
469 GENETICS MAY HAVE MORE EFFECT ON THE INTELLECTS OF INDIVIDUALS THAN FIDDL-
470 ING AROUND WITH THE SCHOOLS.
471    TAXES WILL GO ON TILL YOU COUGH UP BLOOD, IF YOU'RE A "SUCCESFUL" AMERI-
472 CAN. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE. IT'S PAINFUL ENOUGH TO PAY WITHOUT HAVING TO
473 TALK ABOUT IT TOO. WHAT "SUCCESFUL" AMERICANS FORGET IS THAT THESE THINGS
474 ARE NOT ONLY DECREED BY THE GREAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LESS, AND BY
475 THOSE WHO JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE TO GIVE IF THEY DECIDE TO (THE GUILTY
476 ONES), BUT ALSO, AND ESPECIALLY, THEY ARE DECREED BY THE TRULY RICH AND
477 POWERFUL WHO USUALLY PAY LITTLE OR NO TAXES BUT WHO DO CALL MOST OF THE 
478 SHOTS IN THIS COUNTRY. I AGREE THAT THIS IS NOT TECHNICALLY OR DE FACTO
479 A DEMOCRACY, BY THE WAY. WE JUST HAVE MORE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS (MINORITY
480 RIGHTS), WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CONFUSE WITH BEING A DEMOCRACY.
481 ACTUALLY, AS SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED OUT HERE, MAJORITY RULE IS OFTEN 
482 THEN ANTITHESIS OF THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS THAT WE ENJOY HERE.
483    THE PERSON WHO WANTS DOCUMENTATION FOR EVERYTHING WILL BE DELIGHTED,
484 PERHAPS, TO KNOW THAT I AM ENTITLED TO THAT OPINION BECAUSE I JUST 
485 READ "RATIONAL COLLECTIVE CHOICE" IN AUG 83 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, WHEREIN
486 
487 THE AUTHORS CLAIM THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A VOTING SYSTEM THAT IS RATIONAL,
488 DECISIVE, AND EGALITARIAN AT THE SAME TIME. 
489    THIS MAY BE THE LAST REFERENCE YOU EVER GET. THIS ARGUMENT MIGHT
490 BE WORTHWILE AS AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS, BUT NOT AS AN EXCHANGE OF PAPERWORK.
491 AND WHILE THE DEMAND FOR REFERENCES MAY BE A SHOW-STOPPER WHERE YOU COME
492 FROM, IT PROBABLY WON'T SLOW DOWN THIS GROUP EVEN A LITTLE, AS THEY SEEM
493 TO BE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT YOU DON'T RUN DOWN TO THE LIBRARY TO 
494 XEROX A COUPLE HUNDRED BOOKS EVERY TIME SOMEBODY DOUBTS YOUR WORD. SO PISS 
495 OFF. 
496    I HAVE USED THE SOURCE, CIS, ETC LATELY AS A CRUTCH WHEN SOMEBODY 
497 REALLY DOUBTED MY WORD OR OR POWERS OF MIND (HOW DAST THEY!) BUT I
498 GET ENOUGH OF A BET DOWN FIRST TO JUSTIFY THE TIME INVOLVED. THOSE
499 WHO WISH TO SETTLE ARGUMENTS BY SITTING IN JUDGEMENT SHOULD PAY FOR THE 
500 PRIVELEDGE.
501                             CHUCK
502 
503 P.S. I'LL ARGUE ABOUT ANYTHING. ARE THERE ANY KINDRED SPIRITS HERE? YOUR
504 CHOICE OF SIDES. TROTSKY VS. LENIN, GOD VS NUTTIN SPOOKY AT ALL, 
505 ARTISTS VS COMPUTER FREAKS, LO LO PRICES, NEVER GIVE UP UNLESS BORED.
506 REPOND RIGHT HERE PLEASE. UNLIMITED QUANTITIES. DO YOU HEAR ME OUT THERE!?
507 -----------------------------------------------
508     Yes I'm still here ... been at the coast for a few days is all .
509 
510     Genetic Engineering:
511 
512     A Point of View.
513 
514     To start I believe that GE should be given much more funding than its
515 being given now. The benefits in this line of research will be un-measurable.
516 Not only for the point brought out by Elberich earlier (super-plants), but
517 also for the aspects of our being able to control our own genetic destiny.
518     Also ... it would seem much more reasonable to me that the people 
519 that form what 'watch-dog' committees
520 as are seen as necessary should be
521 of scientific backgrounds rather then
522 lay, or religious leaders that have no
523 real knowledge of what is involved in
524 these endeavors.
525 
526     Hows that for a can of worms?
527 
528                     Paul
529 P.S.
530 
531 To BAD:
532    I tend toward still-lifes and abstracts also ... have a hard time
533 with 'street' photography.
534 -------------------------------------------------
535 
536 To the one who used such foul langauge:
537   First, please note that I am not the one who refers to himself as 
538 the 'tax reble'. Note that I signed my entry with 'Irate Taxpayer'.
539 Now that you are aware that we are two different people (Oh god no, 
540 they're spreading!) A few points to make. First, As to schooling. Yes,
541 I consider my schooling to be minimal. It would have been far worse
542 had I allowed myself to follow the path they defined for me. They
543 were so busy generating 'average students', that they didn't have time
544 for my special needs. By the way, I failed fifth grade because of that
545 minimal schooling. The teacher was more intersted in showing slides
546 of his trip to Gaume then teaching class. I have a high school education.
547 (woopee) and yes, I did learn 90% of what I know outside of school.
548 They don't teach you how to run a business in public school. Next, as
549 to what I consider fair in taxes. Perhaps I can better state it by what
550 I consider NOT to be fair. I do not consider the taking of 50% of what 
551 I make in profits to be fair. By the way that is AFTER I take all the
552 deductions. I would be extremely happy to only have to pay the 15% or
553 20% that you are probably paying (if its not less). To you and the others, 
554 please note that I also did not say (In fact, I stated just the opposite!
555 I suggest you reread it.) that I did not support public education. What
556 I was stating, was that I do not feel it is my duty to support your
557 causes. I have my own to support thank you, and do not need you to tell
558 me what to do with my money. Maybe you consider it wrong to not give
559 away all my money, but I can't find a reason for it to be so myself.
560 As far as getting where I got by myself, yes I did do it myself. I might
561 point out here that I started life in a old beat up trailer that was
562 parked on some relatives land. I've been there, I know where of I speak.
563 Finnaly, as for use of my money, you probally don't care that because
564 of the bite that Uncle is taking out of my profits that I am not able
565 to afford to hire another employee despite the fact that I need one.
566 You see, I could provide a much better use of that money, I could hire
567 that person and get them off of unemployment. (Anouther tax I that I
568 have to pay by the way.) Which do YOU think is a better use of that 
569 money? Giving it to someone to stay on welfare, or using it to hire
570 someone that wants to work? Since I doubt that I have convinced you of
571 anything, I will not bother returning here since I would have more
572 luck in talking to a brick wall in obtaining at least an intellegent
573 and reasonably respectable conversation.
574 @@@@@@@@@ The Irate Taxpayer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
575 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
576             T.I.T  SEEMS TO FIT !
577 
578 
579        WHAT BETTER ANAGRAM FOR SUCH A SAGGING THESIS !
580 
581 ********========---------=========*********
582 BRAVO IRATE TAXPAYER!  YOU'RE RIGHT, THOUGH, THEY'LL NEVER ANSWER YOUR
583 QUESTIONS.  I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE IF THEY EVER GOT INTO A SERIOUS DISCUSSION
584 OF TAX MORALITY THEY WOULD FIND THEMSELVES ON THE SHORT END OF THE STICK.
585 THE TAX SYSTEM IS IMMORAL FOR TWO REASONS:  FIRST, IT FORCES PEOPLE TO
586 PAY FOR PROGRAMS/SERVICES/PRODUCTS THEY WOULD NEVER BUY IF IT WAS VOLUNTARY.
587 SECOND, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IS THAT IT ACTS AS AN INCOME REDISTRIBUTOR,
588 ALLOWING A LARGE UNDERCLASS TO CONSUME AND NOT PRODUCE.  IT IS QUITE UNLIKELY
589 THAT THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH A TAX SYSTEM WHERE, ON THE
590 AVERAGE, A PERSON RECEIVED AS MUCH BENEFITS AS HE PAID FOR.  IT WOULD STILL
591 BE IMMORAL FROM THE FIRST STANDPOINT, OF COURSE, BUT IT FAILS TO DO PRECISELY
592 WHAT THOSE PEOPLE WANT OF IT:  TO TAKE MONEY AWAY FROM PEOPLE WHO EARNED IT,
593 AND GIVE IT TO PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T EARN IT.
594 AND IT ISN'T A MOOT QUESTION, ANYWAY.    IT HAS NEVER BEEN ARGUED ON
595 THIS SYSTEM , AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, THAT THE ANTI-TAX PEOPLE WERE INFRINGING
596 ON THE RIGHTS OF THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE (FOR OBVIOUS REASONS), BUT IT IS VERY
597 PLAUSIBLE THAT THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE ARE INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF THE
598 ANTI-TAX PEOPLE.
599 IN FACT, IT TENDS TO BE A COMMON MISTAKE OF THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE TO
600 BELIEVE THAT THE ISSUE IS GREED ALONE.  IT IS AN ISSUE OF THE USE OF FORCE,
601 AND AS WAS SAID BEFORE, COERCION OF OTHER PEOPLE.  RELIGION, SEXUAL PREFERENCE,
602 AND MANY OTHER ISSUES HAVE INDUCED COERCION IN THE PAST, AND THE CURRENT TAX 
603 ISSUE IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW SOME PEOPLE WILL ATTEMPT TO ENSLAVE
604 OTHERS.
605 ___________LOOKING FOR A TRULY FREE SOCIETY________________________________
606 
607 Ahh yes,     America, land of oportunity where anyone can make it.
608 So that those that didn't can take it from them.
609 
610 ......................................................................
611 Well, it looks like it's time to change the old disk again.
612 What will we see on the next one? Let's see, we've talked
613 about taxes, so maybe it will be that other sure thing death?
614 Well, what ever it will be, here goes a new disk for tyou all 
615 to dirty up with your messages.
616 ****** CISTOP MIKEY STILL STAYING OUT OF THE WHOLE THING **** 15 AUG 83 *****

