NUMBER OF LINES: 628 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************* REMOVED: 28 MAR 83 ***************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
19 use the replace command to replace the line.
20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
22 ========================================
23 
24 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
25 ASN/DOD TRANSMISSION #1928819281-42                     TCP NOTICE #2
26 
27 NOTE:NATURE OF THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN DETERMINED CLASSIFIED BY THE
28      DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
30 
31 CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT
32                       BEGIN TEXT FILE READ 
33 
34 ______________________________________________________________________
35 <begin transmission>
49 
51 As of 5/10/83 all personnel for project REDSTAR will report to pentagon
52 office #2910.
58 _________________________________________________________________________
59 <end transmission>
60 
61                     END OF FILE
62 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
63 For sale: MatheMagic program for Apple II/Apple II+
64 
65 For more info contact:              Arthur Dent
66                                     289-xxxx
67 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
68 //////////////////////////
69 "Public rights" are NEVER more important than individual rights.  Why?
70 Because "Public rights" DO NOT EXIST.   Only Public Power exists, which is
71 in the same category as the power of a mob to riot and kill.  Any right
72 that I have is because I exist as an individual, and not for any other
73 reason.  I make no claims on others, and I expect the same courtesy.
74 Government has historically represented theft on a massive scale,
75 greater than theft in any other form.  And the 'vote of the people' fails
76 to make this right.  Majority rule doesn't apply if considered in light
77 of morality.
78 And as for moral relativism,  I don't claim that there is only
79 one 'right', but that doesn't mean everyone is right.  In fact, from what
80 I've seen, close to a majority is wrong.
82 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
83   rights can not and do not exist. for every "right" I claim I must
84  find a way to protect it. we say we have "rights" which we either
85  earn or are granted simpley by being human. well,"rights" can conflict.
86  when our individual "rights" are not in each others iterest.
87  say for the sake of argument that we all "do"have rights.
88  now with this granted, lets consider the "right to live".
89   assume that five or six people are trapped in a room that is quikly
90  filling up with poisonous gas. there is only one way out, through a 
91  small opening of shoulders width. NOW THIS EXIT HAS BEEN BLOCKED BY
92  ONE OF US WHO TRYED TO GET OUT BEFORE WE ALL DIED. WE HAVE SAY TEN 
93  MINUTES OF AIR. what do we do now??? this person has a"right" to
94  live . the rest of us have a "right" to live. ah,but alas, an evil
95  demon has made certain that the only way to get the stuck person out
96  is to KILL him,or let all six perish. NOW, that rights conflict
97  we are reduced to weighing "consiquenses". kill one and let five
98  live, or grant him his "right" to live and all perish.
99   so therefor, rights only exist as long as it is  benificial to
100  all interests involved. we all operate out of egoistic persuit of
101  self interest. we allow "rights" only to assure our own "rightfull
102  interests". there is NOT ONE HUMAN ACTION THAT IS CARIED OUT WITHOUT
103  CONSIDERING WHAT "WE" THINK IS BEST. this leaves us not weighing 
104  "rights" on the basis of "desert", but rather weighing "consique
108                  "cont".............
109    "consiquences" and actions based on thier "utility".
110    no "morality" can exist with out "concensus". moality is
111  only  a word that describes actin on the concensus. of the majority.
112  tell me true. can anyone realy imagine morality and "right thinking"
113  from anyone  without the fear of punishment or reproof for 
114  "immorality"????????????? I SAY NO!!!! moality and values are 
115  subjectivly instilled in us. they are NOT INNATE IDEAS. they
116  must be instilled through FEAR OF PAIN. 
117        SPAM .. THE HERITIC
118  ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
119              "cont. again"
120      I am quite confused as to the meaning of the message preceding mine.
121    a few unvalidated, broad and general statements are very hard to
122  dispute or agree with. because they stand unsigned, i can only adress
123  it with an open-ended comment or two.
124 firstly, HOW has government"represented theft on a massive scale"????
125 Examples,regardless of how brief they are,do wonders for the 
126 enterpertation of your ideas.!!
127 second,HOW is "the majority wrong" and about what.????? MORALITY??
128  If so then what is "morality"??
129  Im sure it would be most enjoyable for me to hear more of you
130  views on this subject of ethics . i dont mean to discount
131  your statements, but honestly, they could stand to be qualified some.
132       SPAM...THE HERITIC
133 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
134      LIKE TOTALY GROSS ME OUT THE DOOR,
135   ANYWAYS  AS I WAS LIKE SAYING THIS
136 BOARD HAS BEEN LIKE TOTALY GRODIED TO
137 THE MAX,I CANT LIKE BELIEVE ALL THE
138 BORRING STUFF IN THIS SMALL LITTLE
139 COMMUNITY........G-R-O-S-S-!!!!!!!!
140 LIKE IM LIKE SO SUPRISED AT HOW MUCH
141 PEOPLE DONT HAVE ENOUGH LIKE PROBLEMS
142 WITHOUT LIKE TALKING ABOUT........
143 TAXES......UNEMPLOYMENT.......STOCKS
144 &%........& BONDS.......YUK!!!!!!!
145 LIKE WHAT HAPPEN TO LIKE MY OL PEN
146 PAL,THE VAL GAL?>????????WRITE BACK
147 IF YOU CAN,VAL GAL......BE WAITING
148 ............LIKE TOTALY YOURS ,
149 
150                  MOON.U
152       
153 =======================================================================
154 YEA RIGHT, IT'S LIKE MAN LIKKE CAN YOU HANDLE ANYTHING THAT TAKES MORE
155 INTELLIGENCE THAN LETTING A FART??? OR CAN YOU STAND ANY COMMUNICATION
156 ACTIVITY THAT REQUIRES MORE INTELLECTUAL EFFORT THAN HOLDING DOWN THE
157 REPEAT KEY AND FILLING THE SCREEN WITH .......................!!!!!!!!!!!
158 LIKE GROSS ME OUT TOOOOOTALLLLY,,, LIKE MAX TRASH IN BRAIN, MAN.
159 ================VAL TOOOOOIIIILET======================================
160 =======================================================================
161 Right-on.  Someone said above that right and wrong are relative to
162 society.  Then some others reiterated this line.  Right and wrong cary
163 inherent claims of truth about reality.  This places them inescapably
164 into the realm of objective investigation.  Whether murder is right or
165 wrong is not established by vote or society.  Ethical Relativism--I wish
166 I had a nickel for every time someone espoused this insipid piece of
167 mental poison.  I would donate a portion of those nickels to Mike Day.
168 This Backwater Message System would then have facilities surpassing the
169 North American Air Defence Command.
170    Let's talk about a bazaar group of people called the Eyeball-Relativists.
171 Now what these people do is stick needles into their eyeballs and then
172 announce to us that the world is a painful, dark, and bloody place filled
173 with unfortunate men who are doomed to wander about bumping into each other.
174    Let's talk about another bazaar group of people called the Ethical-
175 Relativists.  Now, what these people do is stick needles into the science
176 of ethics (i.e., lobotomize it) and then announce to us that the world is
177 a sinister, and morally dark place, fraught with conflict and filled with
178 vicious men who seek only to steal and muscle for power.
179    Like I said before, if you think that ethics is subjective and that
180 issues of right and wrong must thus be settled by societal force; if you
181 view your fellow man as inherently evil such that he must be forced to
182 conform to the "direction" that society deems right, then look first into
183 your own soul--maybe you're projecting something you know about yourself
184 onto the rest of us.  Are there needles in your eyes?  Who put them there?
185    You are a Nazi trooper.  You hold a machine gun and a cigarette dangles
186 from your mouth.  A voluptuous young 23 year old woman is marched naked
187 before you.  She is jewish.  Behind her is an open pit ditch awaiting
188 millions more like her.  Your orders are clear.  What would you tell her
189 before you pull the trigger: "Sorry sister, but ethics is relative to
190 society and a majority voted for Hitler".
191    RIGHT AND WRONG ARE NOT RELATIVE TO SOCIETY.  ETHICS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE.
192 IF YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE THEN YOU NURTURE WITHIN YOU THE POISON THAT IS
193 DESTROYING THE WORLD.  
194 =======JOIN THE AGORA CADRE========1712--23MAR83========================
195   LIKE WHAT IS LIKE HAPPENING TO THIS
196 LIKE BULLETIN BOARD........LIKE HOW 
197 DID THE LIKE PEOPLE FROM LIKE 
198 BORRING LAND LIKE GET A HOLD OF THIS
199 SYSTEMS NUMBER??????I MEAN LIKE WHO
200 WANTS TO READ ABOUT LIKE KILLINGS,AND
201 BLOODY EYEBALLS......LIKE TOTALY GRODY
202 TO THE MAX.LIKE SOME PEOPLE LIKE GET
203 SO LIKE HUNG UP ON SOME LIKE SUBJECTS,
204 ITS PATHEDIC!!!!!!LIKE TOTALY GAG ME
205 WITH A LIKE SPOON...BARF OUT,LIKE WHAT
206 EVER HAPPEN TO THE LIKE GOOD OL' 
207 MESSAGES ON THIS SYSTEM???????
208 
209                LIKE TOTALY DISCUSTED,
210 
211                       MOON.U
212     ((W/B))
213    "VAL GAL"
214     (SOON)
215 ???????????????????????????????????????
220   *****************************************************
221  Ok, imagine this purely theoretical situation:
222           A group of people are stranded on an island.   There's 
223      plenty of fruit to eat, and the climate is good, so living 
224      isn't a problem.   However,  everyone gets tired of eating 
225     fruit  all the time.   It turns out that only  one  person 
226    knows how to fish well, but he'd rather lie in the sun and 
227   sleep,  since  thirty minutes of fishing per day keeps him 
228  supplied with fish.   So the rest trade shells with him to 
229       get him to fish for them.  But eventually, he gets all the 
230       available  shells.   The group is mad.   The fisherman  is 
231      rich  with  shells,  and now doesn't even need  to  gather 
232     fruit (he can trade shells for fruit).
233            So   the   others  individually  sneak  up   to   the 
234       fisherman's  stash of shells at night and steal  some,  so 
235 hey have more to trade.  This works for awhile, until the 
236     fisherman  realizes  what is  happening.   He  then  hires 
237    someone to protect his shells when he is asleep.
238          To the group, the answer is obvious:  form a mob, and 
239    take the shells by force.  This works, but eventually they 
240   again run out of shells, and have to do it all over again.  
241   But their consciences are bothering them:   "It's wrong to 
242  steal, isn't it?"  But many of the people want the fish so 
243       badly  they ignore such talk.   So somebody gets an  idea:  
244  "Let's  not  bother to form mob,  let's just say  we  will 
245       attack  unless  the fisherman doesn't give us any  shells.  
246       We  can  collect  shells  regularly  each  day."   So  the 
247      fisherman has to give one shell per day to each person  on 
248      the island.   This wasn't THEFT.   This was to be called a 
249     "TAX"!
250          As  time  went by,  THE PEOPLE became proud of  their 
251    CIVILIZATION.   It was so fair.   Nobody ever got  robbed.  
252     Of course, the fisherman complained that he shouldn't have 
253    to  pay  the TAX.   But THE PEOPLE reminded him  that  his 
254   payments  were  totally VOLUNTARY.   It was the  PRICE  of 
255  living  in  a CIVILIZED society.   And besides,  they  had 
256       taken  a  vote  on  this tax.   The  vote  was  30  to  1.  
257       Obviously, the majority wanted this tax.  And who was this 
258 fisherman to say he could go against DEMOCRACY?
259           One day,  the fisherman stopped paying the TAX.   THE 
260     PEOPLE  hadn't formed a mob in a long time,  and were very 
261     uneasy.   They would have to forcibly take the shells away 
262    from the fisherman.   But wasn't this THEFT?  "What are we 
263   going to do?"  The answer wasn't long in  coming.   "Let's 
264  form a COURT,  give it a JURY and a JUDGE, and threaten to 
265       lock  the  fisherman  up in a JAIL if he doesn't  pay  the 
266       TAX."  And certainly this wasn't THEFT.   It could be done 
267      in broad daylight, in front of everyone on the island.  No 
268     weapons  would  be present,  but if the  fisherman  became 
269    UNRULY,  they  would lock him away for CONTEMPT OF  COURT.  
270    This was all legal,  since they voted on  it.   Naturally, 
271    the vote was 30-1.
272         The  fisherman was found GUILTY of tax evasion.   But 
273   the COURT was lenient, and it didn't lock him up.  It only 
274  took  away  all his shells,  and distributed them  to  the 
275       JUDGE,  JURY,  and everyone else on the island.  (They had 
276       all helped bring the fisherman to justice,  and were  DULY 
277      COMPENSATED for their trouble.)  This was all legal,  too, 
278     since they voted on it.  Naturally, the vote was 30-1.
279          And  there  were some that justified  the  situation.  
280     "The  fish  belong to everyone,  and no-one should  profit 
281     from  them."   And "We need to defend ourselves  from  our 
282    ENEMIES."  Of course,  nobody ever asked the fisherman  if 
283   he  wanted to be defended.   But this was perfectly legal.  
284   That's  because they took a vote on  it.   Naturally,  the 
285  vote was 30-1.
286       But was this whole situation  MORAL?   Certainly.   That's 
287      because they took a vote on it.   Naturally,  the vote was 
288     30-1.
289     
290           Does this situation sound familiar?.
291     *********************************************************
319 No, I'm afraid it doesn't sound familiar.  It might look like sociaty to
320 a limited mind, but that's about it.  
321 By-the-by, I love your ragged left margin!  Did it take long to do?
322  
323                                 the Phantom Glitch
324 #####################################################3#23#83############
325 CUT THE PHILOSOPHY!  LET'S HAVE SOME MORE INSULTING COMMENTS ABOUT THE BYTE SHOP
326 To the person who claims "Itake nothing from society, I give nothing."
327 Stop eating food shipped over public roads. Don't wear clothes approved
328 as safe from cancercausing addatives, and ignore that free competition
329 will make your phone bill go up.
330 ==================================================B.A.D===3-24-83===0003 am
332      LIKE TAXES.....PROFITS,LIKE WHAT HAS LIKE HAPPEN
333 TO THIS LIKE COMMUNITY,LIKE DONT PEOPLE
334 LIKE HAVE ENOUGH OF THEIR LIKE OWN 
335 PROBLEMS WITHOUT LIKE HAVING TO HEAR
336 AND LIKE READ ABOUT LIKE TAXES ?????
337 I MEAN TODAY,LIKE TAXES ARE WHAT LIKE
338 PEOPLE ARE LIKE MOSTLY TRYING TO GET
339 AWAY FROM??????LIKE IM SURE,LIKE IF
340 YOU DONT KNOW WHAT MORALITY IS THEN
341 LIKE LOOK IT UP IN THE DICTIONARY!!!!
342 LIKE BARF ME OUT,TOTALY.......GROSSS!!
343 
344                     STILL DISCUSTED,
345 
346                          MOON U.
347            ((LATER))
348 ========================================================================
349 To the author of the Rich Fisherman Saga I say RIGHT-ON!!!  It's an
350 elegant analogy illustrating the hoax of government.
351   To MOON-U, why don't you answer someone's earlier question?  Why are
352 you afraid of intellectual activity?  Does someone hold your hand when
353 you need to go potty?  When you grow up and possibly have to see babies
354 burning alive in napalm or simply have to experience the cold sweat of
355 an IRS tax audit then maybe these "boring" topics will have some
356 relevance for you.  "Getting away" from taxes does'nt consist of just
357 not talking about them.  Whether you like it or not, man, some very
358 disturbing things are coming down in the world--when your time comes
359 you'll either be consumed by them or know how to fight them.
360   To B.A.D., it isn't essentially competition that will raise the phone
361 bill; it's the simple and direct result of the prior distortion of the
362 market place caused by the government enforced phone company monopoly.
363 Your condemnation of competition is like killing the bearer of bad
364 tidings.  If a condition of free competition comes and phone bills do
365 go up, the competition simply brings us the bad tidings (thru the higher
366 price) that the market had been coerced beforehand.
367 ===============AGORA CADRE==============1407--24MAR83==================
368 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
369 
370    I AM NOT GETTING INVOLVED IN THE ABOVE ARGUMENTS, BUT THE STATEMENT
371 ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED AND LEARNING HOW TO DEAL WITH YOUR FUTURE IS A 
372 SUPER VALID POINT, LEST YOU BE CONSUMED BY THE CHANGES COMING DOWN IN
373 THE WORLD AS WE PERCIEVE IT. COMPUTERS ARE A RESONABLE PLACE TO START.
374 TECHNOLOGY IS A CHAIN REACTION THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT ALL OF PEOPLE
375 ON THIS PLANET, AND SHOULD BE OBSERVED WITH THE CLEAREST OF ATTENTION
376 BECAUSE YOU ARE AFFECTED IN WAYS BY THIS EVER INCREASING ELECTRONIC
377 TIDAL WAVE THAT IS CHANGING THE WAYS OF MAN. 
378     WHAT THE USERS OF THIS MEDIUM NEED IS VALID SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION
379 TO CONCENTRATE AND FOCUS OTHERWISE UNPRODUCTIVE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL
380 ENERGY USED HERE TO COMMUNICATE.
381 JUST ONE PERSON ASKING THE USERS OF THIS BOARD IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE
382 INVOLVED IN A PUBLIC INFORMATION POOL CAN AFFECT THE WAY TECHNOLOGY IS
383 GOING TO AFFECT US. IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK ALL USERS WHAT CONFIGURATION
384 THEY WERE USING ON THIER S-100 BOARDS, AND MADE THIS INFORMATION PUBLIC
385 WE ALL COULD BENIFIT BECAUSE OF THE COMMUNICATION. A COLLECTION OF USER
386 UTILITIES CAN BE A HANDY THING WHEN YOU ARE SETTING UP A SYSTEM FOR THE
387 FIRST TIME. ITEMS OF INFORMATION USUALLY TAKEN FOR GRANTED CAN RELIEVE
388 SOME OF THE STRESS IN GETTING YOUR SYSTEM UP AND RUNNING.
389 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
390 
391 INSTEAD OF POLITICAL ARGUMENTS, LETS POOL INFORMATION AND BE STRONGER IN
392 THE PROCESS, AND IN DOING SO WE MOVE CLOSER AS WELL AS STRONGER TO FIGHT
393 OFF THE DEPRESSION OF EVER INCREASING TECHNOLOGY.
394 =====================================================================
395 To Moon U:
396 We talk about politics because we know it affects us. Of course it does
397 you, too, and you might even learn someting about why things are the
398 way they are by reading some of this. It might even be noticed we don't
399 really like the subject, but can't ignore it because it just won't go
400 away. You also might notice something else, it is not a simple subject,
401 and there are many ways to go, but even if everybody has an idea of which
402 we want to be, noone really knows how to get there.
403 To the casual observer, there is more disagreement than there really is,
404 though, because a lot of the heat is just differences in where to draw
405 the line. 
406    This is not easy, either, because anything society (or anyone in
407 society) does affects somebody else. For example, we all agree killing
408 humans is bad, BUT, is shooting a sniper who is killing people murder?
409 Is shooting someone who broke iinto your house wrong? If we allow self
410 defense as a defense, is protecting someone else considered self defense?
411 A similar situation, where perhaps noone is right, and noone is wrong:
412 when the north end a a certain town was surveyed, by the CCC, they did
413 a s!@#$ job. Now you want to build a house there, on your property, but
414 the people on the left claim they own the left 6 foot strip of your land,
415 and you can't build a house on their property, and the people on the right
416 claim the right 6 feet, too, because each piece of property was on a 
417 different survey. Who owns the land? Each person has a fully valid claim,
418 his deed includes that land. Who is guilty of trying to steal from his
419 neighbor? Somebody has to lose, because there just isn't as much real
420 estate as there is deeds. who pays for determining? Who decides who gets
421 what? None of the current owners caused the trouble, but it is a problem.
422 
423    The question of killing someone to let others escape is not an exercise
424 if imagination, it happens: A while back a wagon train tried to beat the
425 coming winter, but near the the pass over the 
426 Rockies got caught in a blizzard. They didn't have enough food to feed 
427 everybody, so sharing equally meant they would all starve.
428 Should we accuse the survivors of murder or praise them for not committing
429 suicide?
430    It is much easier to decide right from wrong when we talk about simple
431 cases like these, than when we include millions of people and call it 
432 national politics, or expand into international. (Even if the issues
433 are the same.)
434    As for the claim that there are absolute rights, what do you do when
435 2 people each have an absolute right to some thing that can't be shared?
436 {Like enought food to live out the winter.}
437     The denyal of public rights ignores what "public rights" are:
438 the accumulated rights of large numbers of individuals.
439 The story about the island and fisherman is too simple: the truth is
440 more likely that the fish were needed to survive, and the only fisherman
441 refused to give any away. Of course after the others put him in jail they
442 all starved, but everybody felt happy because they were punishing him too.
443 
444 Stay with the simple, absolute answer: it is a good excuse not to think.
445 =============================================B.A.D.=============
446 
447 While my phone bill will indeed go up because of the entrance of compition,
448 I would have to say that where was that money coming from before?
449 The answer of course is ATT long lines. I.E. grossly outragous long distance
450 charges. I'm sorry, but I cannot accept the argument that it is alright
451 to take from someone else and give it to another because someone else 
452 thinks it should be done. Compitition and the free market are the great 
453 equalizers in the system values. Unfortunately we tend to fight fire with
454 fire in this world. when the factories started taking too much from the
455 workers (in the form of poor working conditions and long hours at low pay)
456 the response was to form a union (I.E. a bigger mob) to force the factories
457 to do what they wanted. So now the factories are hurting because of excessive
458 wages and fringes (compared to the rest of the world). Their response is to
459 ask the government to stongarm the other factories in the world (thru import
460 duties and quotas). Unfortunately, no one seems to be able to step back and
461 realize that the basic problem is that each individual was paid the proper
462 wage and finges and had reasonable working conditions, none of this would be
463 needed. So what is reasonable you say? I wish I Knew. But one thing is certain,
464 given a free market place without interference, it would soon find an
465 equalization point. In the mean time we continue ploding along towards the 
466 ultimate mob rule condition .. WAR ....
467 ****** an exwarior **********************************************************
468 TO SPAM the Heretic and recent others who may like the flavor of his Gas
469 Chamber Ethics.  FEAR OF PAIN may be YOUR algorithm for acting morally,
470 but you're being very presumptious to project that onto man in general.
471    Since the issue of whether rights can conflict is fundamental in ethics
472 and since you have chosen an abnormal, guaranteed-death situation upon
473 which to define rights, we must regard this Gas Chamber as your essential
474 model of life-on-earth from which your ethics is derived.  In light of 
475 this, we can only reject you model as invalid.  Not only doesn't it
476 correctly model the normal productive life of man, it is a death-model.
477 Neither does it present a situation in which rights conflict.  Perhaps
478 the peoples desires will conflict.  But you don't discuss the moral 
479 stature of the people involved.  You ASSUME they are automotons whose
480 only morality is to walk over corpses to reach their goals.  What if the
481 five deeply love the sixth and would sooner die with him than go on living
482 without him?  What if the sixth one rationally realizes the situation and
483 requests them to kill him so that the rest may escape?  No rights are in
484 conflict in these cases.  Possibly no conflicting desires either.
485    I mentioned above about people who stick needles into their own eyeballs
486 and then proclaim that man is inherently doomed to wander about bumping
487 into other men.  The particular needle that you have stuck into the heart
488 of ethics is the death-model you have fabricated.  It reminds me of a 
489 crazy person I once heard about who would walk into a room, defecate on
490 the floor, and then complain to the others present that the room smelled
491 bad.  In effect, you walk into the room of ethics, drop this ethical
492 model before us, and then assure us that man's rights are inherently
493 conflicting.  
494    My question is, why must you construct an ethical model that
495 guarantees death when the goal of ethics is to codify for man the rules
496 for a rational, healthy, productive life?  You say "an EVIL DEMON has
497 made certain that the only way to get the stuck person out is to KILL
498 him or let all six perish."  I say, If the shoe fits....
499    A comment on Technology and these political discussions:  Technology
500 is definitly a revolution happening now.  Personal computers are 
501 instruments for amplifying our ability think and communicate.  This
502 very message system is an example.  I think ideas (and the truth of them)
503 are crucially important.  They are not distant, boring, or irrevalent.
504 Political ideas cause things to happen in the world.  Good ideas (like
505 personal computers) can cause great joy.  Bad ideas can cause untold
506 misery.  Just ask the victims in Afganistan.  Unfortunatly, there are
507 alot of bad ideas floating around.  They should be fought passionately
508 by all of us who care about our fellow man.  If you perceive my arguments
509 as being particularly, even excessively, energetic, I don't appologise.
510 I would only add that I have witnessed first-hand some of the world's
511 worst ideas taken to their final extreem of practice.  Some of
512 those ideas have appeared innocuously on this message system.  Let's
513 keep the fire alive--when we pass to the good ideas (eg personal
514 computing as a liberating instrument) the discussions can stay equally
515 interesting and not quite as depressing as political issues.
516 ===============AGORA CADRE===============24MAR83--2104=================
517   TO AGORA,
518 
519       DOES SOMEONE HOLD YOUR HAND WHEN
520 YOU GO POTTY??????HHHMMMMMMMM??????
521 I DIDNT SAY YOU HAVE TO IGNORE TAXES
522 AND ALL THAT OTHER STUFF,WHAT IM SAYING
523 IS.....WHAT CANT YOU JUST KEEP IT TO
524 YOURSELF??????AND WHAT REALLY GROSSES
525 ME OUT,IS HOW MUCH ROOM YOU TAKE UP
526 TO TALK ABOUT IT!!!!!DONT WE HEAR
527 ENOUGH ABOUT TAXES ON THE NEWS ANYWAY?
528 AND BESIDES,YOU DONT HAVE TO IGNORE
529 TAXES,TAXES IS A PART OF LIFE,BUT THAT
530 DOESNT MEAN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT
531 ALL THE TIME,WE CAN JUST LEARN TO
532 EXCEPT IT AS A PART OF LIFE WITHOUT
533 HAVING TO MUMMBLE JUMMBLE ABOUT IT
534 ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!COME BACK TO LIFE!
535 
536                      MOON U.
537       DONT W/B
538 ////////////////////////////////////////
539 DEAREST MOON U.
540            "PATHETIC" NOT "PATHEDIC"
541                                 -
542 ////////////////////////////////////////
543 
544 AGORA
545       IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MOST ZEALOUS AND ENERGETIC FEED-BACK
546 THANK YOU. I DO FEEL THOUGH THAT MY MAIN POINT WAS OVER-LOOKED.
547 THE MAIN POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WAS THIS.THE "IDEAS" OF
549 "RIGHT AND WRONG", "GOOD AND BAD", OR "MORALITY AND JUSTICE"
550 OVERALL ARE NOT UNIVERSALY PERCIEVED, NOR PRACTICED, THE SAME
551 BY EVERY INDIVIDUAL IN THE WORLD. THEREFOR, THESE CONCEPTS
552 ARE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE, SUBJECTIVE IN ESSENCE.
553 IN OTHER WORDS, OUR "IDEAS" OF MORALITY ARE NOT SIMPLY "GRANTED",
554 BUT "LEARNED". THROUGH AN ON-GOING PROCESS OF "ACTION , THEN REWARD",
555  OR , "ACTION, THEN PUNISHMENT", WE DEVELOP OUR "SOCIETAL , MODAL PERSON-
556  ALITIES". THIS MEANS LEARNING WHAT ARE SOCIALY ACCEPTABLE NORMS OF
557  BEHAVIOR IN ANY GIVEN AREA OF HUMAN INTERACTION, WITHIN OUR OWN CULTURE.
558  IE: THE WAYS WE DRESS, HOW OFTEN WE BATHE, WHERE ITS PROPER TO SHIT,
559   IDEAS OF PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND EVEN CONCEPTS OF "HUMAN RIGHTS".
560  WICH ONES WE ACCEPT AND ACT ON , AND WICH ONES WE REJECT , DEPENDS VERY
561  HEVILY ON OUR "ENCULTURATION", ( THE WAY WE ARE NURTURED INTO SOCIETY).
562 ALL THESE IDEAS ARE LEARNED, ACCEPTED OR REJECTED, PONDERED AND SHADED
563 BY OUR OWN VIEW-POINT, AND THEN ACTED APON IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
564 AS FOR MY POORLY WORDED PARADIGM CASE, YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I SHOULD HAVE
565  COSIDERED ALL THE POSSIBLE "LOGICAL LOOP-HOLES" BEFORE MAKING SUCH
566  BOLD A CONCLUSION. "YOU GOT ME"
567   BUT.....................................
568  I ALSO STATED, ADAMANTLY AS I RECALL, THAT THE PERPETUATION OF THE IDEAS
569  OF "RIGHTS" WERE " EGOISTIC " IN NATURE. THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE AND 
570  CONTINGIANT APON WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE AN INTEREST AT STAKE. ALSO
571  I BELIEVE YOU YOURSELF DID GRANT ME THE FACT THAT THEY CAN AND DO
572  CONFLICT, GIVEN THE RIGHT CUIRCUMSTANCES. FOR EXAMPLE, I MAY PUT
573  MYSELF IN THE POSITION OF THE MAN "WHO IS STUCK IN THE HOLE AND
574  JEOPARDIZING THE WELFARE OF MY COMMMRADS". ALSO,I PERSONALY WILL
575 TAKE ON THE ROLE OF THE ONE "WILLING TO SACRAFICE MY OWN LIFE, OUT OF
576  LOVE AND CONCERN, SO THAT THEY MAY LIVE". BUT WAIT ... EVEN AMIDST
577  MY SELFLESS SHOWERING OF BENEVOLENCE, GLEEN THROUGH A MEASURABLE
578 AMOUNT OF INESCAPABLE "EGOISM" AND "UTILITARIANISM".
579 "I" BELIEVE THAT IT IS WITHIN "MY" INTEREST TO DISREGARD "MY" RIGHTS
580 FOR THE SAKE OF SOMTHING "I" LOVE. MY FRIENDS. AND....,SEEING THIER
581  PLIGHT, "I" ACKNOWLEDGE THE UTILITY OF "MY" ACTIONS. FOR IT IS
582  CLEAR TO ANY THINKING PERSON, SURLY, THAT NO DECISION CAN BE
583  MADE , BY ME OR ANYONE ELSE,                 ////////
584  UNTILL THE FACTS HAVE BEEN WIEGHED. SO IN EFFECT I AM AGAIN CONSIDERING
585  "WHATS IN IT FOR ME" (THE LIVES OF MY BELOVED FRIENDS) , AN THE UTILITY
586  OF MY ACTIONS ( WHAT GOOD WILL COME OF THIS). 
587 MORE SIMPLY, THE COGITATION OF THE FACTS DEMANDS A CONCLUSION ON MY PART
588 WHICH LEADS TO INTROSPECTION AND ( ALAS ) "EGOISM".
589  IF YOU ARE THUS FAR FINDING DIFFICULTY WITH MY DEFINITIONS, IT MIGHT
590  BE HELPFULL FOR YOU TO GO TO YOUR LOCAL LIBRARY AND SPEND SOME TIME
591  READING THE "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHILOSOPHY". IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MOST
592 HELPFULL TO ME IN TIMES OF MENTAL MIDGETRY.!!
593 
594    AND TO RESTATE MY FIRST THESUS, "THERE ARE NO INNATE IDEAS"!!!!!!!!!!
595  WE CAN ONLY LEARN THROUGH EXPERIENCE. THIS INCLUDES OUR "IDEAS"
596  OF JUSTICE , MORALITY, AND HUMAN RIGHTS.    OH YEAH, I ALMOST FORGOT.
597   DO NOT CONFUSE "EMPICISM" WITH CULTURAL OR ETHICAL "RELTIVISM".!!!
602             RESPECTFULLY
603 ALSO DO NOT CONFUSE "CONSEQUENTIALIST UTILITARIANISM" WITH ANY FORM
604  OF RELATIVISM. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.
605  ALSO... ABOUT THIS I AM MOST ADAMANT!!! IT IS USUALY COMMON COURTESY
606  WHEN REFUTING AN ARGUMENT BE IT POLITICAL, PHILOSOPHICAL, OR
607  MERE OPINION,TO ADHERE TO CERTAIN GUIDLINES OF ARGUMENT.!!!
608  TO DO ANY LESS ACOMPLISHES LITLE, ASIDE FROM PROVING YOUR IGNORANCE
609  TO THE READER. SO FOR FUTURE REFFERANCE I WILL DO YOU THE FAVOR
610  OF LISTING THE MOST FUNDIMENTAL OF THESE RULES.
611    #1.  ATTACK ONLY SPECIFIC STATMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE, NOT YOUR
612  OWN ASSUMPTIONS OF WHAT THEY MEAN. IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND A STATEMENT,
613  SAY SO!
614   #2  AVOID VAGUE AND AMBIGUOUS TERMS SUCH AS: GOOD:BAD: NICE: PRETTY:ETC
615      ESPECIALY IN CONECTION WITH CONCEPTUAL IDEAS. LEFT UNQUALIFIED IN A
616      STATEMENT THESE TERMS ARE WAY TO GENERAL TO SUPLY ANYTHING BUT A 
617      SUBJECTIVE ENTERPERTATION. YOU SAID "BAD IDEAS ( WHAT EVER THE
618      HELL THAT IS) CAUSE MISERY" AND THEN POINT TO "AFGHANASTAN FOR
619      EXAMPLE"   SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "BAD" IN CONECTION WITH "IDEAS"
620      AND WHAT ABOUT "AFGHANASTAN" SPECIFICLY HOW DOES "THIS PLACE FOR
621      EXAMPLE" INTER-RELATE WITH "BAD"???????? 
622   
623   #3  QUALIFY YOUR TERMS!!! YOU MADE A SOME-WHAT MEAGER ATTEMPT AT THIS
624       WHEN YOU RELATED "GOOD IDEAS" WITH SOME MEANINGLESS STATEMENT ABOUT
625      PERSONAL COMPUTERS; IF YOU REALY BELIEVE THE ONLY "GOOD" IDEA 
626      (VAGUE TERM) IS A "PERSONAL COMPUTER". BUT I DOUBT IT. DEFINE VAGUE
627      TERMS TO AVOID MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A SENILE IDIOT!!
628 

                                                             