
83176 19-NOV 20:01 OSK Applications
     RE: MM/1 Game Control (Re: Msg 83101)
     From: ROYBUR       To: MREGC

 ROFL! THAT was good for the ol' endorphin level! 8*).........roy

-*-

83177 19-NOV 20:25 General Information
     RE: 80 track drives (Re: Msg 83163)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ISC

Yes.. High Densitiy Drives still have 80 tracks/side. Bt, on the MM/1 (at least)

they have 37 sectors/track instead of 18...

-*-

83184 19-NOV 22:16 General Information
     RE: 80 track drives (Re: Msg 83177)
     From: ISC          To: MITHELEN

Ah, 37 sectors per track would answer the question.  Thanks.

I just keep learning.

Bill

-*-

83194 20-NOV 00:37 General Information
     RE: 80 track drives (Re: Msg 83142)
     From: ROYBUR       To: ISC

 if you're talking about those old single-sided 80-track drives (5.25") that
 i've seen advertised once or twice - usu. _very_ cheap, even then! - then i
 think the answer is no, they are hardware-incompatible with the coco. you
 could ask marty goodman as a double-check on that, though, since i think
 that he mentioned that in a Rainbow article or column; it was a while back!
 you already have the software answer from a couple other people. <g>....roy

-*-

83232 20-NOV 22:43 General Information
     RE: 80 track drives (Re: Msg 83194)
     From: ISC          To: ROYBUR

Thanks, Roy.

Bill

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83178 19-NOV 20:35 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83170)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: ALWAGNER

Hi Al--I haven't heard that there is any change in B&B. <Phil>

-*-

83201 20-NOV 06:54 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83178)
     From: ALWAGNER     To: PHILSCHERER

I hadn't either, it's just that I don't tend to keep up with such things.
Thanks again for the help.

-*-

83212 20-NOV 12:47 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83144)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: ALWAGNER

if your a coco user.... burke & burkes file system repack, i have an
extra copy for sale if they no longer have it

-*-

83241 21-NOV 07:48 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83212)
     From: ALWAGNER     To: MIKE_GUZZI

thanks for the offer. I'll keep you in mind.

-*-

83299 23-NOV 03:45 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83144)
     From: DGANTZ       To: ALWAGNER

Al, what you need is either Burke & Burke's REPACK or CBM utilitity.  They
both re-organize your drive a bit and clean up fragmentation.  I think
CBM only cleans up fragmentation in the bit map while repack cleans up
both the bitmap and the physical as well as logical fragmentation, un-
fragmenting files as well as the drive itself.  CBM is faster, but
repack is probably more complete.  See if you can find either utility,
both work with floppies as well as hard drives.  Good luck.
                  Dave

-*-

83363 25-NOV 06:56 Applications (6809)
     RE: Hard Drive Fragmentation (Re: Msg 83299)
     From: ALWAGNER     To: DGANTZ (NR)

Thanks for the help.  It seems B&B's repack is the way to go.  Now to convince
the minister of finance (read that 'my wife') of the requirement.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83179 19-NOV 21:01 General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 81616)
     From: CLTUCKER     To: AYUSKO

Thks. AYUSKO. I,ll try the KBCOMM.  (:-)

-*-

83555 29-NOV 22:59 General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 81627)
     From: AYUSKO       To: ISC

Oh, I haven't noticed that yet. Of course if it hasn't been fixed yet,
I can't offer to do it right now, my 6809 machine has a problem with the boot
drive.
Only happened today.
   Alex A. Yusko (AYUSKO)

-*-

83563 30-NOV 00:55 General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 83555)
     From: ISC          To: AYUSKO (NR)

Alex,

Dave (MITHELEN) here has fixed the 6809 version of Sterm in the database.
It now works just fine.  If you try it, remember that the CoCo keyboard
generates an ESC. character using CTRL + BREAK.

Bill

-*-

83575 30-NOV 03:39 General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 83563)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: ISC

Bill,

 > Dave (MITHELEN) here has fixed the 6809 version of Sterm in the database.

Um, actually, MITHELEN's name is Paul.  :)  But, Dave, Paul, Bill... all
generic names anyways... what's the difference.  <ducking!>



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83609 30-NOV 21:38 General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 83563)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ISC

Whoops! My name isn't Dave.. it is Paul.. I do _know_ "Dave" though 8-)
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83617 1-DEC 00:25  General Information
     RE: KBCOM (Re: Msg 83575)
     From: ISC          To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

There was an old saw which said "Every Tom, Dick and Harry is named John";
then there is "Old Bill", "Mr. Bill" etc.  So Paul (MITHELEN), I am sorry
I murdered your name, but I bow to your obvious technical ability.

There.  That should be better. <ducking>

Bill

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83180 19-NOV 21:07 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK BASIC Syscall (Re: Msg 83106)
     From: THUNDERFNGRS To: TEDJAEGER

Thanks I got it all worked out and incorporated into my program!
I will be uploading an example of how to use syscall and julian/greg time

-*-

83183 19-NOV 22:03 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK BASIC Syscall (Re: Msg 83180)
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: THUNDERFNGRS

Glad you got the syscall going. BTW, DeskTamer is a personal information
manager about to be released by BlackHawk Enterprises. Keeps a schedule,
to-do list, and provides pop-up calculator, note taker, filer, clock, etc.
Written by me because since becoming a Department chair at Westminster
College I have far too complicated a schedule to keep in my head! A
necessity is the mother of invention thing! It's all point and click
using KWindows.
 --Bests,
  --TedJaeger

-*-

83314 23-NOV 18:31 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK BASIC Syscall (Re: Msg 83183)
     From: THUNDERFNGRS To: TEDJAEGER

I used to like to use the calender program with deskmate on the coco.
Do you think desktamer will work on my tomcat tc70 which runs kwindows?

-*-

83328 23-NOV 22:15 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK BASIC Syscall (Re: Msg 83314)
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: THUNDERFNGRS

I am guessing but I think it would run. Makes calls to KWindows via
BASIC PUT command and uses syscall to do date calculations and sleeps.
Assuming consistency in the KWindows system it should go. Does require
a 640X220 (? on vertical pixels) Type 0 screen which supports 16 colors
on the mm1.
Will let you know more as I find out!
 --Cheers,
 --TedJaeger

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83181 19-NOV 21:49 General Information
     COCO STUFF
     From: RCPOLK       To: ALL

Greetings!
 Just a note to let interested parties know ... I have posted (tonite) a list
in the classified "FOR SALE" section, of a few hardware items from a new
COCO3, hardrive,disk drives etec. But I ran out of space and forgot to
mention to send me MAIL of any offers. Would prefer money orders as
payment.
 FROM ..(Went from MV to Windows) RICH POLK
 (add should show after OS9 management oks add in about two days)

-*-

83182 19-NOV 21:58 Programmers Den
     RE: Shanghai OS-9 (Re: Msg 82964)
     From: CHARLESAM    To: EARTHER

Good luck then with your task! It won't be easy.. Please let me know how
its shaping up. I'll definitely DL it as soon as its posted. Charlie

-*-

83185 19-NOV 23:08 General Information
     substitute memory chips
     From: WA2EGP       To: ALL

Just a quick question.  I've got a machine (non-OS) that I'm trying to give
a memory boost.  The chips in it are TMS8256.  Is there another chip that
can be used (possibly 41256, hope, hope.) in place of them.  When I need my
memory chip book, I can't find it (Darn Murphy!).  Thanks for any help.

-*-

83186 19-NOV 23:28 General Information
     RE: Old Monk, New Toys (Re: Msg 83166)
     From: WOAY         To: DGANTZ

Hi Dave; Naw, Gene Heskett. I share an acount with Jim Martin, the CE at
WOAY in Oak Hill WV, about 100 miles down highway 19 from here. I'm the CE
at WDTV channel 5, in Weston/Clarksburg WV.  And KISS is KISS anyplace I've
been.  We've also been known to Simplicate a product or two, hehe.
Cheers, Gene

-*-

83187 19-NOV 23:32 General Information
     RE: Canada Stamp (Re: Msg 83136)
     From: CLAUDECOTE   To: MRUPGRADE

I have found it very beautiful. I think you have work very hard on this one.
As always articles were very interesting.
Bye,
Claude

-*-

83191 20-NOV 00:22 General Information
     RE: Canada Stamp (Re: Msg 83187)
     From: MRUPGRADE    To: CLAUDECOTE

  I don't know if we have any philitelists in the Mid Iowa & Country CoCo,
 but we have a small stamp collection going by now.
  there's Kentucky, [Washington, Hawia, I have a Maryland somewhere,, and
 oh yeah,, Californai.  I guess we have a few to go.  That'll give me soem work
 ofor "The UPGRADE" this winter.

 *************  UPOADED VIA ULTIMATERM  *************
 *  MRUPGRADE               :       Delphi          *
 *  Terry g                 :   Graphics signature  *     `
 *  Terry Simons            :   UPGRADE Newsletter  *
 * Terry's Quality Concrete : ` Business            *
 *  A few chose phrases     :   Those in            *
 *    not permissable here  :     my employee       *
 *--------------------------------------------------*
 *        Beware !    Using MS DOS at the office    *
 *           could be sexual harrassment.           *
 ****************************************************
 `

-*-

83207 20-NOV 11:46 General Information
     RE: Canada Stamp (Re: Msg 83191)
     From: CLAUDECOTE   To: MRUPGRADE

Yes I am philatelist myself, specialized in New Zealand stamps for 16 years now.

I have sold my Canada collection in 1981 to make cash to buy my house.
Bye
Claude Cote
Z

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83188 20-NOV 00:06 General Information
     RE: Window descriptors (Re: Msg 82623)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: ILLUSIONIST

From Kevin Darling's "Inside OS9 Level II" (which I suppose is what
you're talking about), the Default palette table is in GrfInt at offset $02F2.
Look for the 16 bytes: $3f, $09, $00, $12, $24, $36, $2d, $1b, and then
the same 8 repeated.  Any good disk editor should make it easy to change
these.  Be very careful to play with this on a backup disk, of course, since
accidentally changing the wrong thing could be disastrous.
   I don't have the offset within WindInt handy, but you should be able to
search for the above sequence of bytes to patch the color table in that.
                           - Tim

-*-

83195 20-NOV 00:47 General Information
     RE: Window descriptors (Re: Msg 83188)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: TIMKIENTZLE

Thanks, I will mess with Windint and try it out..I will post the offset within
Windint..thanks again..

                                        -* Mike

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83189 20-NOV 00:12 OSK Applications
     RE: OSKFAX archive? (Re: Msg 82594)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: JEJONES

It was compressed with LHa version 2.01, edition #2, ported June 15, 1992
by M. Haaland.  (If that helps any.)  It looks like others have managed
to burst it, so I don't need to re-upload it.  Yell if it still won't
burst for you..

-*-

83203 20-NOV 07:52 OSK Applications
     RE: OSKFAX archive? (Re: Msg 83189)
     From: JEJONES      To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

 > It was compressed with LHa version 2.01, edition #2, ported June 15, 1992
 > by M. Haaland.  (If that helps any.)  It looks like others have managed
 > to burst it, so I don't need to re-upload it.  Yell if it still won't
 > burst for you..

Actually, I think I found out why I had trouble--I was unarchiving it to a
floptical...that I'd write protected.

A stupid thing to do?  You bet.  OTOH, I probably could've figured it out
earlier with a little better error message than

    Why?  ROOT

I think. :-)


*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83190 20-NOV 00:20 Programmers Den
     RE: Reading from Multiple Inputs (Re: Msg 82634)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: MREGC

When processing the interrupt fast enough is a concern, it might be
necessary to set up a circular buffer to store successive interrupts
in.  Have the interrupt handler store the interrupt value in a circular
queue, and then you can get a much better idea of what's going on,
not to mention easing the timing constraints on processing the
interrupt.
            - Tim

-*-

83229 20-NOV 21:59 Programmers Den
     RE: Reading from Multiple Inputs (Re: Msg 83190)
     From: MREGC        To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

Good idea. I think I'll give that a shot. Hopefully it'll save the idea of
being able to use the keyboard since, as it stands right now the keyboard is
proving to be way too slow.

..Thanks...

..Eric...

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83192 20-NOV 00:26 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 82768)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: JOELHEGBERG

A better keyboard interface was discussed extensively on the
Internet mailing list a couple of years ago.  Several of us worked
out an approach that allows you to distinguish all of the
keys on the keyboard without going to two-byte sequences (which
can be tough to parse).  Eddie Kuns has been threatening for a long
time to disassemble the MM/1 keyboard driver and implement the scheme
we came up with.  If someone is going to actually implement a better
keyboard driver, they should talk to Eddie or myself or one of the
other people who were involved in that discussion for details
of the scheme we came up with.  It accomplishes everything you
described quite conveniently.
                  - Tim

-*-

83234 20-NOV 23:12 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83156)
     From: MREGC        To: EMTWO

Understood. You do have a very good point there. But at least we do have
methods, albeit not as desireble, of getting the job done.

..Eric...

-*-

83284 22-NOV 22:07 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83234)
     From: EMTWO        To: MREGC

 Another thing we need right now, is some method to have your process
send a signal when a key is pressed. We have this for the Mouse buttons,
but not for keyboard stuff.

-*-

83296 23-NOV 03:13 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83284)
     From: MREGC        To: EMTWO


    Once again perhaps I am oversimplifying what you're trying to say, but it
seems to me as though you're talking about what I've been doing with this
program I'm currently working on as far as getting keyboard input from either
of 2 windows. Is there a problem with setting up an interrupt on both (or the
one if you're using one window) paths for the keyboard, then when the
interrupt is processed reading input from whichever window was active when the
key was pressed?

..Eric...

-*-

83331 23-NOV 23:21 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83296)
     From: EMTWO        To: MREGC

 The CGFX.l library contains a function that will send a signal when a
mouse button is pressed. While it is waiting for that signal, the program
can sleep, giving it's CPU time to other processes. I haven't seen anything
that will do the same for keyboard responce. ie, Sleep until a key has been
pressed, then wake up. Do you have such a function? If so, I need it.

-*-

83338 24-NOV 03:39 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83331)
     From: MREGC        To: EMTWO

    Issuing a _ss_ssig (pathnum,signumb) will tell the system to send your
process an interrupt when a key is pressed. Following that with a tsleep(0)
call will make the system sleep until such a time as your interrupt is
generated. This is a standard call of the OS, no special library needed.

...Eric...

-*-

83506 28-NOV 22:34 OSK Applications
     RE: K-Windows BUGS (Re: Msg 83331)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: EMTWO

Paul,
   You don't need a special CGFX.l lib function for having a signal sent
when a key is pressed... the standard OS-9 library function _ss_sig() works
well with any data path.

  -- Joel.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83193 20-NOV 00:32 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83160)
     From: REVWCP       To: BOISY

I was able to get the new hard drive up and running using SCSISYS_1.0 by
Matt Thompson.  I was also able to access the old st-138n. Now the challenge
will be to be able to use both.  The st-138n as /h0 and the st-251 as /h1.
I alread have the cable made up.  I still have to play with the descriptors
a bit.  One question that I have received differing opinions is do I have
to remove the terminating resistors from one of the drives?
With all best wishes.
Brother Jeremy, CSJW

-*-

83197 20-NOV 02:08 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83193)
     From: BOISY        To: REVWCP

On SCSI drives, you should remove terminators from all drives EXCEPT the
last drive PHYSICALLY connected on the ribbon cable.  It doesn't have
to correlate to the last device, but should be the drive that's at te
far end of the cable.

Luck

-*-

83205 20-NOV 09:44 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83197)
     From: REVWCP       To: BOISY

If I remove the terminators from one drive, at a later date would that
drive be usuable alone or would the terminator resistors have to be put
back on?

With all best wishes,
Brother Jeremy

-*-

83211 20-NOV 12:46 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83205)
     From: BOISY        To: REVWCP

If you want to reuse a drive on another system after the terminators have
been removed, you will want to keep the terminators handy.  When you
switch the drive over to the new system, reinstall the terminators as per the
rule of thumb for SCSI devices.

-*-

83213 20-NOV 12:51 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83157)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: REVWCP

I am currently using the SCSISYS 1.0 until the disks arrive (I put in for
the 2.0 version) making the descriptors was real easy with his program
and setting up the hard disk was also easy. I used 512 byte sectors right
off because you can get more space that way. if your having a problem
with his drivers, I can help.

Mike

-*-

83214 20-NOV 13:00 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83197)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: BOISY

here is a weird note. On my main system I am using two ST296N's they won't
work unless i leave both terminator resistors in. Don't know why yet.
Using a Ken-Ton SCSI interface... but its working so I won't complain.


-*-

83224 20-NOV 21:24 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83214)
     From: BOISY        To: MIKE_GUZZI

Mike:

I suspect that has to do with the KenTon interface not having access to
the ATN line.  Joe Scinta recommends soldering a 1/8 watt resistor from
1 to 10K ohms between the ATN pin and 5 volts on the drive bus (can7t
remember the exact locations, but you could refer to a SCSI spec).

It sounds like in your case, the terminating resistor on the last drive
is providing enough voltage to the ATN line to hold it high when needed.

-*-

83245 21-NOV 10:47 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83224)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: BOISY

Yeah he told me about that, but I don't have the scsi specs. he told me
which pin on the terminator, but it didn't work, so i left both
terminators in.


-*-

83282 22-NOV 21:56 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83211)
     From: REVWCP       To: BOISY

Dear Boisy,
On the st-25 51n there are three terminator resistor "packs". Do I remove
all three of these, or just one or ??? --Jeremy

-*-

83285 22-NOV 22:10 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83282)
     From: BOISY        To: REVWCP

Bro. Jeremy:

Remove all three resistor packs to properly un-terminate the drive.  They
should just pull right out (with a little prodding of with pliers if
necessary).  Save all three in case you need to re-terminate the drive at a
latter date.

Luck
B010000012f4ced

-*-

83313 23-NOV 07:06 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83205)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: REVWCP

Bro,

 > If I remove the terminators from one drive, at a later date would that
 > drive be usuable alone or would the terminator resistors have to be put
 > back on?

When you take them out, make a little drawing of exactly how they were
in there.  If you put them in backwards later on, it could case some
problems with the SCSI bus.

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83329 23-NOV 22:35 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83313)
     From: REVWCP       To: MARKGRIFFITH

I'm ahead of you on that one Mark.  I did just that figuring I would never
remember how the went otherwise. --Jeremy

-*-

83378 25-NOV 22:05 System Modules (6809)
     RE: SCSI512 (Re: Msg 83313)
     From: REVWCP       To: MARKGRIFFITH

I had to put the terminators back in. Now the st-251n is working as /h0
and the st-138n is working as /h1.  Both have the terminators on them.  The
st-138's are soldered, the st-251's plug in.  Evenutally I will be pulling
the st-138n off of the system.
--
With all best wishes,
Br. Jeremy, CSJW

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83196 20-NOV 01:05 General Information
     RE: Repacking MM/1 question (Re: Msg 83129)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: COLORSYSTEMS

For any analog audio, I would go with the RCA "phono" type connectors. Most
modern audio equipt. use these...of course you could go with whatever you
thinks "looks" the best..and just wire up special cables for everything.. :)
but I doubt you will want to do that..

Anyway, I would go with RCA jacks..or even the mini-stereo "walkman" type
head phone plugs..either of them is ok..of course, you will need an adapter
cable for the mini-stereo plugs..but they are pretty cheap to buy / easy to
make..

                                                -* Mike

-*-

83198 20-NOV 05:29 Applications (6809)
     RE: New AR submitted (Re: Msg 83169)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: DGANTZ

   Well, the new version of ar will work ok on a 6309.  The Shell+ patch, I
honestly do not know.  I got the patches off here in the databases.  All I can
say, is give 'em a try.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

83302 23-NOV 04:22 Applications (6809)
     RE: New AR submitted (Re: Msg 83198)
     From: DGANTZ       To: JWILKERSON

I must be honest, I have no clue as to what I may have done to spur this
reply.  But I will look for the patches and give them a try.  Thanx.
The closest thing I can remember is something regarding the 11 bit
compression in the accepted version by the original author, or the 12 bit
compression in the out-lawwed version by some one else.  Quite frankly,
I'm using Matt Thompson's LZH for just about everything now.  Well
take care.
               Dave

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83199 20-NOV 06:31 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83153)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: MDALENE

 > Yes I have looked into it. but the problem with IX is that I use Conn-net
 > to link up and the scrip language is in binary. There is no script
 > comiler included in the package for such a esoteric baby bell packet
 > network. The price of IX for the Coco was OK but without that

IX has an alternate dialing script that might just do what you need. It will
support 4 script commands: DLAY{value},SEND{string},WAIT{string}and EXIT.
With this, you should be able to develops a MACRO that will allow you
to utilize Conn-net. I'd check with Bill Dickhaus, author of IX for the
suitability.



*- Steve -*


-*-

83227 20-NOV 21:33 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83199)
     From: MDALENE      To: SCWEGERT

Good idea to check. I rather not wast money on sometning that would not
work well for my needs. Oh.. I have heard of MTSMON here on DELPHI and CIS
Who has MTSMON and ttyset and word mtsmon work with SACIA?
                                Michele Dalene

-*-

83248 21-NOV 10:56 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83227)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: MDALENE

 > Good idea to check. I rather not wast money on sometning that would not
 > work well for my needs. Oh.. I have heard of MTSMON here on DELPHI and
 > CIS Who has MTSMON and ttyset and word mtsmon work with SACIA?

There is an OSK version of mtsmon in the libraries at CompuServe a well as
being in the OS9 archives at wuarchive.wustl.edu. Executables only due to the
fact that some inappropriate liberties were taken with the author's source code
of another popular OS9 utility he released years ago. Once burned twice shy
and all that ...

While mtsmon does exist for the 6809, I don't think Carl ever released it.


Steve


*- Steve -*


-*-

83258 21-NOV 20:23 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83248)
     From: MDALENE      To: SCWEGERT

Yeah, thats what I heard, Ssince I am back on CIS again I guess I could bub
carl personally :) Of course I will not be on CIS ever night though
        I still need ttyset though. who gots it?
                                Michele Dalene

-*-

83287 22-NOV 23:21 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83258)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: MDALENE

 > Yeah, thats what I heard, Ssince I am back on CIS again I guess I could
 > bub carl personally :) Of course I will not be on CIS ever night though
 > I still need ttyset though. who gots it?

Not sure what ttyset is ... what does it do?


*- Steve -*


-*-

83387 26-NOV 19:14 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83287)
     From: MDALENE      To: SCWEGERT

ttyset is used to allow a user to change the terminal type for their
path that they are set for. An example would for say a say a user
is on /T2 and they type ttyset
it would allow them to type in a new terinal config for the path of
 /t2 without messing up any other paths that you have configured for
the other serial ports. In essence it is nothing complex but I rahter
have the original version than taking the time to bang up my own release
                                Michele Dalene

-*-

83445 28-NOV 04:09 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83387)
     From: BROWN80      To: MDALENE

I could be badly mistaken but I have never heard of ttyset on an OS-9 system,
but it sounds like something I've seen on a UNIX system.  It is my understanding

that if you want to set TERM environments you would use setenv TERM (term type)
This could also be included as part of a user's login file.  UNIX sometimes
uses this format also with many of its shells.
I hope I understand your question correctly and that I haven't added to the
confusion.

-*-

83470 28-NOV 15:58 General Information
     RE: A litle note to all (Re: Msg 83445)
     From: MDALENE      To: BROWN80

This works like the unix ttyset but this is for os9 level 2. it modifies
the ttytype file in your /dd/sys directory. I would have been a kicker
if only os9 level  2 let you have environment varibles. :)
                                Michele Dalene

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83200 20-NOV 06:32 Programmers Den
     RE: Basic09 Subroutines (Re: Msg 83167)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: DGANTZ

 > I have a question and a comment.  First you quoted what appears to be
 > someone elses lines.  Second how did you quote their message?  I know

The same way I, and a lot of other on Delphi and CompuServe do. We're using
a great new autonavigation product called InfoXpress. Have you heard about it?


*- Steve -*


-*-

83303 23-NOV 04:25 Programmers Den
     RE: Basic09 Subroutines (Re: Msg 83200)
     From: DGANTZ       To: SCWEGERT

Yes, but isn't that exclusively for the MM/1?  I run a CoCo III with 512K.
I think I read something about it in "The NoName Magazine".  Have to see
if I can find that issue again I spose.  Thanx
               Dave

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83202 20-NOV 07:25 General Information
     RE: infoxpress (Re: Msg 83139)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

 > > > Thanks for the reply.  Could you check to see if your xydown's CRC
 > is > > $9027D1?
 > >
 > > Nope, mine is $6DC2.
 >
 > Hmm... Do you know where one can download the version you have?  I
 > noticed a few others on here have mentioned they have had similar
 > problems and also have the same CRC for xydown that I have.

I believe I got it here, but can swear on it.  If it becomes a problem,
I'll shoot you the source.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83204 20-NOV 07:53 General Information
     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83100)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: BOISY

Those are some very good ideas!  Multi-Vue is much closer to being useable
with NitrOS9, and the extensions you mentioned will go a long way towards
the point where I would use it every day.  2 things I would like to see are:
Be able to use 16 colors in Gshell (might not be worth the effort tho)
 Be able to copy a file like you can delete one with the trashcan.  (ie. click
on the file icon, then click on the RBF device above the trashcan)
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

83279 22-NOV 20:17 General Information
     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83100)
     From: JIMHRUBIK    To: BOISY

Boisy,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!  You have just solved (for me) one of
the great mysteries of Multi-Vue's AIF files!  There have been a number
of times I tried to run programs under MV and got ziltch results because
a parameter was needed (VU and AR come to mind).  Then I saw this:

>                        CURRENT AIF FORMAT
>
>Field                    Line   Explanation
>=====                    ====   ===========
>Shell                  <--- 1:  Name of program to run
>                       <--- 2:  Parameters (or ? for prompt)
>ICONS/icon.shell       <--- 3:  path to icon, execution directory relative
>0                      <--- 4:  additional memory (in pages)
>2                      <--- 5:  window type
>80                     <--- 6:  X size
>24                     <--- 7:  Y size
>2                      <--- 8:  foreground palette
>0                      <--- 9:  background palette

and the light came on!  The information Tandy never bothered to give those
of us without advanced computer science degrees!  I quickly altered my
AIF for VU, adding the '?' to the second line, then clicked on it.  WOW!
A window opened asking for the parameters, I fed it the filename, and
voila! I was in business.  [For a moment.  Now I need to know how to
make VU clear the page on the MV window before it writes the new one.]

I've never had any major problems with MV (discounting the above) --
even Max9 ran fine as long as it was on /dd.  I think it is well worth
the effort to upgrade our little GUI from Tandy, and while my programming
knowledge is piddly and I basically have to watch from the sidelines, I
applaud you and wish you well.

In the way of improvements to MV, my wish list would include having new
SHELLs pop up in plain boxes, rather than the stock double box.  A plain
box would allow use of applications that require the full 640x192 or
320x192 screen (VU is one of those; I believe Max9 was another).  Since
I use ED3.1 and it already has a clipboard function, I don't really need
that implemented, but there may be folks who do.

Is there a need for a MV tutorial?  I'd be happy to serve as a proofreader
for documentation.

Jim Hrubik
Norton, OH
216-745-8435


-*-

83283 22-NOV 21:56 General Information
     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83279)
     From: MRGOOD       To: JIMHRUBIK

Just FYI, the parameter line in aif files was not always capable
of understanding a question mark.  This feature was added by Kent
Meyers I believe.

Hugo

-*-

83288 22-NOV 23:22 General Information
     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83279)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: JIMHRUBIK

 > and the light came on!  The information Tandy never bothered to give
 > those of us without advanced computer science degrees!  I quickly altered
 > my AIF for VU, adding the '?' to the second line, then clicked on it.
 > WOW! A window opened asking for the parameters, I fed it the filename,
 > and voila! I was in business.  [For a moment.  Now I need to know how to
 > make VU clear the page on the MV window before it writes the new one.]

Please remember, that the ? feature on line two of the AIF was NOT, I
repeat, NOT part of the ORIGINAL GShell!!!!! It was a welcome addition
with the GShell+ patch origionally by Kent Myers.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83544 29-NOV 22:28 General Information
     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83288)
     From: JIMHRUBIK    To: COLORSYSTEMS

> 83283 22-NOV 21:56 General Information
>     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83279)
>     From: MRGOOD       To: JIMHRUBIK (NR)
>
> Just FYI, the parameter line in aif files was not always capable
> of understanding a question mark.  This feature was added by Kent
> Meyers I believe.
>
> Hugo
>
> 83288 22-NOV 23:22 General Information
>     RE: GShell Extension Proposal (Re: Msg 83279)
>     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: JIMHRUBIK (NR)
>
> Please remember, that the ? feature on line two of the AIF was NOT, I
> repeat, NOT part of the ORIGINAL GShell!!!!! It was a welcome addition
> with the GShell+ patch origionally by Kent Myers.
>
> ------------------------------------
> Zack C Sessions

My apologies to Kent.  I shoulda known better than to think kindly of
TANDY :-) .  And thank you both for correcting me.

Jim


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83206 20-NOV 11:41 OSK Applications
     forwarded message
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: ALL


Zack,
    Please post this to Delphi, thank you.
------- CUT ----
    Please post this message on comp.os.m68k, comp.os.os9, FidoNET
    OS-9 and MM1TECH, delphi and compuserve.  Thank you.

    I am putting out a request for 2 categories here:

    1)   If you are an MM/1 owner, please send me your:
         name, address, telephone #, machine serial number
         and your current system configuration.

    2)   If you are an OSK and/or MM/1 software developer or vendor,
         please send me your:
         name, address, telephone #, machine serial number,
         company name and your current system configuration.

         Where to reply to:
              email     ww2150@acspr1.acs.brockport.edu

              Mail      William L. Wittman, Jr.
                        873 Johnson Road
                        Churchville, NY 14428
                             Attn: MM/1 - OSK

+++++++++++++++
William L. Wittman, Jr.  - Authorized MM/1 Sales Representative
                           Voice (716) 494-1506 EST

          ww2150@ACSPR1.ACS.BROCKPORT.EDU

Ask me about the NEW 68340 Accelerator board for the MM/1


------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83218 20-NOV 18:40 OSK Applications
     RE: forwarded message (Re: Msg 83206)
     From: MRGOOD       To: COLORSYSTEMS

Zack,

Any explanation as to why Bill needs/wants this info?

Hugo

-*-

83220 20-NOV 19:46 OSK Applications
     RE: forwarded message (Re: Msg 83218)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: MRGOOD

 > Any explanation as to why Bill needs/wants this info?

I can't say for sure, but I think Bill is putting together a list of
vendors and owners in order to try and get some kind of a MM/1 Source
Book together.

Feel free to send him some EMail and ask!


------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83222 20-NOV 20:33 OSK Applications
     RE: forwarded message (Re: Msg 83220)
     From: NIMITZ       To: COLORSYSTEMS

I'm not sure that Hugo is aware that Bill is also a vendor.  (an authorized
BlackHawk Enterprises, Inc. Reseller).

           David M. Graham
           BlackHawk Enterprises, Inc.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83208 20-NOV 11:48 General Information
     Software ads?
     From: MRUPGRADE    To: ALL

     I know Delphi has a policy against advertising software.  But I
really think there should be  exceptions.    Some  very well written
pieces, just never got a real chance.     Initial sales of some just
didn't allow the prices in  Rainbow, or  Hot CoCo ads.  As a result:
you never got a chance to hear about and try them.   Let me give you
one example, and let you and the SYSOPS decide.   Would this be, an
exceptable exception among the unexceptable exceptions??

  ROOT-DATA  (c 1981)     by, Grimise Sofware (R)
  Another money saver for your CoCo Computer.  Origianlly developed by
competant professionals this package loaded in: 16 or 32K.  The latest
Color Computer III version,  makes full use of the  16  Color HSCREEN2
graphic pages.   The CC3 ver 3.29  requires no documentation.     Here
the  explicite  graphics flip through   screem by  screem giving you a
step by step proceedure.    Whereby you may preform; in the privacy of
your own home; a "Root-Canal".   The sound  which  beats  anything you
could possibly digitize,  is provided by the user.   User friendliness
rating: depends on the prespective of the "User" or "Usee".
  Do you you think we're pulling your leg?    Look again;  legs aren't
what's being pulled here.
  If you would like to recieve this package "absloutely free";  we are
looking for Bata-Test participants.
   Replied one publisher, when asked "if there wasn't a special place
in his heart for this little gem"?     He replied,  "there is a place
to put it, it's not special, and it's not in the heart".


 *************  UPLOADED VIA ULTIMATERM  *************
 *  MRUPGRADE                :       Delphi          *
 *  Terry g                  :   Graphics signature  *
 *  Terry Simons             :   UPGRADE Newsletter  *
 *  Terry's Quality Concrete :   Business            *
 *  A few chose phrases      :   Those in            *
 *    not permissable here   :     my employee       *
 *---------------------------------------------------*
 *         Beware !    Using MS DOS at the office    *
 *            could be sexual harrassment.           *
 *****************************************************

 A note to you OS users (I know you'll be asking):
  YES!  An OS version is in the works.  Combined with Multi-Vue is will
 have special ICONS for molars, and incisors.

-*-

83239 21-NOV 03:07 General Information
     RE: Software ads? (Re: Msg 83208)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: MRUPGRADE

I,m interested<grin> have both BASIC....and Os9 lv II and run 6309 system
hav,nt got B & B up and running yet with power boost! And I also have
2 meg memory <old version>Rs232 port/Microsoft mouse....port.....
secondary computer 386...clone!<grin>link to the CoCo via it!via second
rs232 port.......Dennis

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83209 20-NOV 12:34 Programmers Den
     RE: The Protect Program (Re: Msg 83094)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: THETAURUS

Ok ill dig through my disks and see what i can come up with


-*-

83210 20-NOV 12:39 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83103)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: CBJ

My original version of APBBS was shareware, because of that I learned what was
needed for a commerical product. Then I went that route.

Mike

-*-

83233 20-NOV 23:03 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83023)
     From: MREGC        To: MARKGRIFFITH

Mark,

  > No one is taking the machine to its full capabilities.

    Funny, that's almost a direct quote of something I said during the
discussions that preceded the MM/1, TC-70 and System IV. Several years ago
now when everyone was talking about the need to move to a faster, more
powerful system I was screaming that we hadn't even pushed the CoCo 3 to its
full capabilities yet, and that if we did move to such a system, the same
thing would happen. Well, it seems I was right.

    Now I will admit that OSK has seen some software proted that is simply too
big for the CoCo to handle, but besides that GhostScript and Tex stuff, (or
whatever it is,) and the ability to display pictures in more colors, how much
of this new software couldn't be done on the CoCo 3? In fact, how much software
is there for the CoCo 3 that the OSK systems can't even touch yet? I'd say
quite a bit.

    Does this surprise you? You've always seemed to be a pretty firm realist
so I doubt it. But why should it surprise any of us?

    On a slight side note, do you think that adoptimg "standards" such as are
currently being discussed will be necessarily destructive to the possibility
of taking the machine to its full capabilities? Will everyone start
programming for the lowest common denominator, (full portability to every
other system, including terminals)?

  > I have yet to see anyone make use of the sound capabilities of the MM/1...

    I agree, and that's something I had really been looking forward to. Oh
well, its on my list of software that I want to write. It is a little ways down
the list, though. I should get to it sometime around the year 2000. (disgusted
grin)

  > We also don't see anyone doing anything with the great full motion video
  > capabilities?

    Exactly what are you referring to here? The VSC's built in RLE decoding?
The PIXAC? What kind of software do you think could be done. Besides in doing
some animation I can't think of any great use of the RLE decoding. And what
kind of useful animation could you do? I would love to use the PIXAC, but it
doesn't seem to be supported in K-Windows, and even though you can go around
K-Windows to access it, as a C programmer I have absolutely no idea how to do
it. Have you something else in mind?

  > We aren't even getting the basic applications built. ...after almost 6 or 7
  > years of flogging the lack of applications horse...

    I understand what you're saying here, and even agree, but, for you
personally, what are we missing? What applications that YOU PERSONALLY want to
have need to be around in a year or two to keep you from leaving? For me
personally, I program, I telecommunicate, I word process, and occasionally I
just like to endulge in some entertainment. To those ends, the MM/1 is pretty
close to satisfying my needs already. Granted a DTP would be nice, support for
some of the more modern file transfer formats *included* in term programs (as
opposed to the standard OS9 technique of using outside programs to do the job)
would be nice, and some more entertainment software is definitely needed. But
overall my MM/1 is serving my needs pretty well. Which of your needs aren't
being met?

...Eric...

-*-

83249 21-NOV 11:41 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83233)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: MREGC

 > Now I will admit that OSK has seen some software proted that is simply
 > too big for the CoCo to handle, but besides that GhostScript and Tex
 > stuff, (or whatever it is,) and the ability to display pictures in more
 > colors, how much of this new software couldn't be done on the CoCo 3?

Um, what is your point, here? That there is little reason to upgrade to an
MM/1 since most of the MM/1 software could have been done on a CoCo3? If
that is your point, then I disagree. In my case, most of my MM/1 offerings
are programs which I originally wrote for the CoCo and ported to the MM/1,
but things like painting the screen and the smoothness of the animation
make the game programs look and feel a hundred times better on the MM/1.

 > In
 > fact, how much software
 > is there for the CoCo 3 that the OSK systems can't even touch yet? I'd
 > say quite a bit.

Are we talking OS9 software on the CoCo3 or just "software"? If we are
talking OS9 software, then virtually ANYTHING written for OS9 on the
CoCo3 is portable to the MM/1, it just takes a programmer's time (and
the availability of an MM/1) to do it. Now, there are some OS9 programs,
like the recently announced SMASH from Northern Xposure, and ALL ROM based
programs which access various HARDWARE aspects of the CoCo3, like GIME
registers and the like. These programs WOULD be very difficult to port
for obvious reasons.

 > > I have yet to see anyone make use of the sound capabilities of the
 > MM/1...
 > I agree, and that's something I had really been looking forward to.

The name escapes me, but there is someone working on a "sound editor"
type of program. I thought it may have been finished by now, but I haven't
seen any postings from the author lately.

I breifly looked at this myself, and wrote a snippet of code which took
a small sample and then played it back out. I was so disappointed with the
lack of consistency in the quality I gave up on it. Apparently some early
MM/1's have problems generating clean samples, something about the '070
being too noisy on the buss or something like that. Mark?

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83257 21-NOV 20:17 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83249)
     From: MREGC        To: COLORSYSTEMS

Zack,

  > Um, what is your point, here? That there is little reason to upgrade...

    No, not at all. I do support the decision to upgrade and am very happy that
I did so. All I am saying here is that, since the same phenomenon occurred with
the CoCo 3, no one should be surprised that its happening with the OSK systems,
though I wish it were different.

  > Are we talking OS9 software on the CoCo3 or just "software"?

    I'm talking CoCo 3 RS-DOS stuff here. Things like Max-10, ColorMax Deluxe,
Studio Works and such.

  > The name escapes me, but there is someone working on a "sound editor"...

   Yes, there was. I believe you're referring to Stephen Seneker, who was
working on a program the name of which escapes me about a year ago. I've been
meaing to drop him a note asking about it since I haven't heard anything about
it in quite awhile.

...Eric...

-*-

83309 23-NOV 07:06 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83233)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MREGC

Eric,

 > > No one is taking the machine to its full capabilities.
 >
 > Funny, that's almost a direct quote of something I said during the
 > discussions that preceded the MM/1, TC-70 and System IV.

I think that the CoCo was taken to it's limits a long time ago.  There
is just so much you can do with a 64K machine.  While its true that new
ideas are still coming out, there will never be anything like what is
available for the rest of the computing world.  I'm talking about the
multimedia stuff, super graphics and sound, etc.  The CoCo was and still
is a good machine, but let's be realistic.

 > On a slight side note, do you think that adoptimg "standards" such as
 > are currently being discussed will be necessarily destructive to the
 > possibility of taking the machine to its full capabilities? Will everyone
 > start programming for the lowest common denominator, (full portability to
 > every other system, including terminals)?

I don't see standards having anything to do with how people program.
Standards are there to make things easier, not to have one program or
programmers methods forced upon everyone else.

 > > We also don't see anyone doing anything with the great full motion
 > video > capabilities?
 >
 > Exactly what are you referring to here? The VSC's built in RLE
 > decoding? The PIXAC? What kind of software do you think could be done.

The MM/1 has the ability to pull full motion video off the hard drive and
display it on the screen.  You might have to use a small window, as lots
of the PC machines do, but it can be done.  Someone needs to come up with
a program to display whatever current full-motion video format the PC crowd
is now supporting.

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83336 24-NOV 03:24 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83309)
     From: MREGC        To: MARKGRIFFITH

Mark,

  > I think the CoCo was taken to its limits a long time ago. ... there will
  > never be anything like what is available for the rest of the computing
  > world.

    Agreed. But what I am saying here is that there are a lot of things that
still could have done on a CoCo 3 that never were. Maybe a CoCo 3 couldn't
have run a Video Toaster, but it could have done better video effects than
anyone ever did with it. No one program ever pushed that 6809 Gime combination
to its max, meaning pretty close to 100% of system resources being used by
said program, much like the original Dragon's Lair did on the Amiga. It has
been said that that program pushed the Amiga to its limits. What such program
can you name for the CoCo 3? Now, understanding this, and also understanding
that most, if not all of the MM/1 prgrammers came from the CoCo, why would
anyone expect anything different from MM/1 programs? If we didn't use all of
the CoCo 3's resources why would we do it on the MM/1?

  > Standards are there to make things easier, not to have one program or
  > programmers methods forced upon everyone else.

    That is certainly how it should be. But let's take a look at something that
happened in the Mac arena. Anyone who has used a Mac knows how they use their
mouse and scrollbars. Well, some guy wrote a program which redefined this
"standard" of theirs and did his scrollbars in a totally different way. Moreso
than anything abot the merits of the program, the only discussion about this
paritcular program was a public lambasting of the programmer because of his
having broken the "standard". I would hate to see something so ridiculous
happen here.

  > The MM/1 has the ability to pull full motion video off the hard drive and
  > display it on the screen. ... Someone needs to come up with a program to
  > display whatever current full motion video format...

    Are you referring to a specific function of the VSC, or just the fact that
the MM/1's data transfer rates are fast enough to do FMV (full motion video)
from the hard drive? What practical applications do you see this
realistically being used in? I've spent much time and effort trying to get
the specifications to Apple's Quicktime format, which the Mac folks are using
now, with little success. I've tried the Mac sig here, the mac and multimedia
sigs on C-Serve, and even calling Apple. I finally found a file which is what
I think I'm looking for, but its archived in a Mac specific format that we
can't bust. If you have a way of getting this format I would be more than
happy to take a crack at writing a viewer, especially now with the MM/1's
68340 expansion board, since a 68020 is required on the Mac to run it.

...Eric...

-*-

83345 24-NOV 07:54 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83336)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Have you tried macunpack??  It supposedly unpacks several mac formats??


-*-

83360 25-NOV 03:05 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83345)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ


  > Have you tried macunpack??

    If you're referring to the Unix utility Mike ported over, yes I did. It
was able to unpack the archive's directory structure, but not any of the files.

...Eric...

-*-

83412 27-NOV 05:48 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83336)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MREGC

Eric,

 > I've spent much time and effort trying to
 > get the specifications to Apple's Quicktime format, which the Mac folks
 > are using now, with little success. I've tried the Mac sig here, the mac
 > and multimedia sigs on C-Serve, and even calling Apple. I finally found a
 > file which is what I think I'm looking for, but its archived in a Mac
 > specific format that we can't bust. If you have a way of getting this
 > format I would be more than happy to take a crack at writing a viewer,
 > especially now with the MM/1's 68340 expansion board, since a 68020 is
 > required on the Mac to run it.

If you send me the file, I'll take a "crack" at cracking it at work.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83443 28-NOV 03:10 General Information
     RE: Wish List Update (Re: Msg 83412)
     From: MREGC        To: MARKGRIFFITH


  > If you send me the file, I'll take a "crack" at cracking it at work.

    Thanks Mark, will do. Look for it in the next couple of days.

..Eric...

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83215 20-NOV 15:00 Telecom (6809)
     RiBBS
     From: DENNYWRIGHT  To: ALL

Ii am trying to set up RIiBBS v2.10 and I am having problems creating the
userlog.
I did everything the docs said too but when I get to creating the userlog it
hangs.
I execute 'useredit' and I get 'Userlog not Found' over and over again. Hhas
anyone else ever had this problem?
If so how did you fix it? Any ideas what I could be doing wrong?

-*-

83246 21-NOV 10:49 Telecom (6809)
     RE: RiBBS (Re: Msg 83215)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: DENNYWRIGHT

create the userlog with BUILD, don't put anything in it, just have
the file there. Then try running useredit

-*-

83278 22-NOV 19:45 Telecom (6809)
     RE: RiBBS (Re: Msg 83246)
     From: DENNYWRIGHT  To: MIKE_GUZZI

Thanks I figured it out. I was executing commands from my system master cmds
dir when I should have been in the BBS cmds dir. I then had a bad connect
module which I replaced but now I get error 211 in connect.
I'm afraid I'm lost at this point. Where should I go from here? As far as I can
tel I have created all the necessary text files. Could the connect module still
be bad? At first I got a crc error when I tried to load it.I unarchived it
again and checked the
 crc then remerged it with the other modules, after checking their crc values
also!

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83216 20-NOV 17:18 General Information
     14.4 modem
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: ALL

Just got a new 14.4 modem! Hooked up on /t0 of my MM1. Called Sprintnet
and got echoed back CONNECT 9600. From here nothing I type is echoed
to my screen or has the desired effect. Thus "@D" does not generate the
normal "Terminal" prompt and "c Delphi" does nothing. Do I need to
turn off the modem's flow control or something? If so, how? My problem
is not software related as the same thing happens with two comm
programs.
 --Thanks,
  --TedJaeger

-*-

83217 20-NOV 18:03 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83216)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: TEDJAEGER

Ted, /t0 does not support the proper hardware lines for the modem to operate
effectively.Most likely your modem defaults to the much desired hardware
handshaking mode. While you can monkey around with /t0 and the modem settings
to get it to work (sorta), tis far better to put the modem on /t3. This will
allow you to use it almost to its full potential.

  Randy

-*-

83244 21-NOV 10:09 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83217)
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: RANDYKWILSON

Thanks much for that info as I am still struggling. I have tried the
modem on my PC and found that it works. Could I move my mouse to /t0 (I
had used it there before I got my IO board) and use the modem on /t2? As
you probably figure, I dont have the extra hardware for t1,t3, etc.
 --Thanks,
 --TedJaeger

-*-

83253 21-NOV 17:48 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83244)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: TEDJAEGER

The modem  may work better on /t2. I'm not really sure, as I've never tried it.
According to the tech manual, there is a way to do hardware handshake with
either /t0 or /t2, but it doesn't say *exactly* how.  I would guess that it
requires a custom cable crossing DCD with CTS (for /t2), and DCD with CTS and
DTR with RTS (for /t0).

  If getting a paddle for /t3 is not an option right now, try it on  /t2. If
more control is needed, I guess we'll just have to puzzle it out. :>

  Randy

-*-

83274 22-NOV 06:33 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83244)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: TEDJAEGER

 > Thanks much for that info as I am still struggling. I have tried the
 > modem on my PC and found that it works. Could I move my mouse to /t0 (I
 > had used it there before I got my IO board) and use the modem on /t2? As
 > you probably figure, I dont have the extra hardware for t1,t3, etc.

T2 is an even worse choice for the modem as it only has TX, RX and GND.

A couple of things to try on /t0:

 xmode /t0 type=80

If that doesn't improve things then try using software handshaking on the
modem (AT&K4). Still having problem, turn hand shaking off all together(AT&K0)
and see if things get better. Since your port will be faster (19.2K) than the
speed Sprintnet is pumping data, it might just work.

To really take advantage of a high speed modem you need /t3 or /t4.



*- Steve -*


-*-

83276 22-NOV 18:18 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83274)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: SCWEGERT

Ah, Steve, it's /t1 that's the brain-dead three wire serial port. It was really
intended to have the Midi paddle on it. According to the Tech manual, /t2 is
much like /t0, except that it supports one additional line; RTS.
  Alas, I can not really help Ted more. The very first thing I did when I put
the v32 modem on the mm/1 was to modify the /t1 paddle to be /t3. Never tried
it on the lesser ports.

  Randy

-*-

83286 22-NOV 22:11 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83276)
     From: MITHELEN     To: RANDYKWILSON

I had /T0 hooked up with hardware handshakeing when I still had a CoCo
hooked to my MM/1 as a terminal... the first step is setting type=80.Then you
also need to wire your cable funny (or make an adaptor). I _think_ you
described the cable changes correctly...

I't worked OK... but A) there were problems on the CoCo's end, due to the
6551 ACIA having funky CTS behavior.. and B) I'm not all too sure the
MM/1 driver was totally up to snuff.

The absolute solution for high speed modem operation use is to use
the /T3 or /T4 ports.
-0-
Paul

-*-

83307 23-NOV 07:05 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83253)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: RANDYKWILSON

Randy,

 > According to the tech manual, there is a way to do hardware handshake
 > with either /t0 or /t2, but it doesn't say *exactly* how.  I would guess
 > that it requires a custom cable crossing DCD with CTS (for /t2), and DCD
 > with CTS and DTR with RTS (for /t0).

Yeah, there is a way, and you've basically described it.  With some different
xmode setting for those ports, you can get hardware handshaking of a sort.
Whether or not this will work with a HS modem I don't know.  Probably not.
You only get one handshaking line and the modem really needs two...one
from the modem to the computer and another from the computer to the modem.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83340 24-NOV 06:32 General Information
     RE: 14.4 modem (Re: Msg 83276)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: RANDYKWILSON

 > Ah, Steve, it's /t1 that's the brain-dead three wire serial port. It was
 > really

And that's what I get for not looking it up!  :-0

Yes ... looking at the tech manual, you're quite correct. It was /t1 I was
thinking about. Thanks for keeping me honest.


*- Steve -*


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83219 20-NOV 19:35 General Information
     gen
     From: NIMITZ       To: ALL

I have posted a poll.  I'm interested in gageing the  amount of interest
in the MM/1.   Please partcipate.  Thanks

-*-

83221 20-NOV 20:03 System Modules (6809)
     Genie
     From: CLTUCKER     To: ALL

Am using ulterm to contact Genie. When
Genie answers, the dialing info screen won't go away and cut me through.
The tbl seems to be on my end. Any ideas.(:-)

-*-

83235 21-NOV 00:13 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Genie (Re: Msg 83221)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: CLTUCKER

Using Ultimaterm? You posted in the wrong forum then, try the CoCo forum..
It might be a bug with Ulterm...I have had weird problems with it...but that
is mostly with buffer/ram disk usage and uploading/downloading..

                                                -* Mike

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83223 20-NOV 20:39 Games & Graphics
     SMASH!
     From: CHARLESAM    To: ALL

I just received my copy of Smash for Northern Xposure. Great game and under
OS9 to boot! I'm already addicted and this is day one. The wife is pulling
her hair out.... I guess I better get her a copy. One thing though, it
mentions a utility called VRN. Although its not essential, this utility
would make the graphics smoother according to the docs. I checked the
applications DB here and can't find it. Does anyone know where I can obtain
this utility? Its written by Bruce Isted. Any help would be appreciated.
   If anyone is on the fence about this game, go for it... It is first
quality and well thought out. I thought it would be a carbon of ARKANOID
but it is not. There are some nice features here that are miles ahead of
that game. Even without VRN, the graphics are first rate. With VRN, I
can't say yet but its hard to see how it could be better. I would like
to find out. Thanx Alan! Now lets see some more good games, I'll buy 'em.
Charlie

-*-

83225 20-NOV 21:24 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83223)
     From: REVWCP       To: CHARLESAM

I think it is in Systems DB.  --Br. Jeremy, CSJW

-*-

83228 20-NOV 21:43 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83223)
     From: ROYBUR       To: CHARLESAM

 use "sea vrn" in the 6809 "system modules" section of the db. 8*).....roy

-*-

83247 21-NOV 10:51 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83223)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: CHARLESAM

vrn SHOULD be available here, if not I can always upload the archive

-*-

83266 21-NOV 22:58 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83225)
     From: CHARLESAM    To: REVWCP

Thanx Br. Jeremy, I give a check there tonight. Charlie

-*-

83267 21-NOV 22:58 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83228)
     From: CHARLESAM    To: ROYBUR

Thanx Roy.... Charlie

-*-

83268 21-NOV 22:59 Games & Graphics
     RE: SMASH! (Re: Msg 83247)
     From: CHARLESAM    To: MIKE_GUZZI

Thanx for your offer, but let me check system DB first. Charlie

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83226 20-NOV 21:28 General Information
     MM/1 rom modules
     From: LUCKYONE     To: ALL

FYI
After reading Mark Griffith's review of the accelerator board in the latest
issue of the Metamorphorsis and his comments about the modulues that IMS
had put in ROM and the modules that came in the CMDS directory I decided
to do a ident on each module in each of the locations. Here is what I
found out:

   Mods in Mem                         Mods in CMDS

 Name            Ed#                Name              Ed#
shell            52                shell              48
setime           24                setime             21
mdir             20                mdir               18
mfree            15                mfree              14
procs            21                procs              19
devs              4                devs           not in directory
format           33                format             34
dir              39                dir                34
copy             29                copy               29
iniz             15                iniz               13
free             23                free               18
load             16                load               14
syscall           0                syscall             0
break             1                break               2

Since then I have saved all of the mods in memory to a directory.



   Howard Luckey
   delphi LUCKYONE
   CIS 74746,3207

       ********** By InfoXpress 1.01 of course! **********



-*-

83308 23-NOV 07:06 General Information
     RE: MM/1 rom modules (Re: Msg 83226)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: LUCKYONE

Howard,

 > After reading Mark Griffith's review of the accelerator board in the
 > latest issue of the Metamorphorsis and his comments about the modulues
 > that IMS had put in ROM and the modules that came in the CMDS directory I
 > decided to do a ident on each module in each of the locations. Here is
 > what I found out:

Sheeesh!  I only have a couple or three that were different!


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83230 20-NOV 22:22 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 82897)
     From: MREGC        To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

  > Would people pay attention to the standards?

    Well, in order for me to follow any standard I would have to consider it to
be at least as good as the method I would use should the standard not exist,
and it would have to be as easy to implement.

    For example, quite awhile ago I was designing another GUI for the MM/1,
(this was before I decided that having yours and Mike's available was enough.)
Chet Simpson and I were working on our own "standard" for MM/1 icons, and had
talked Mike into revising Desktop to conform to it. Unfortunately we never
completed it. It supported variable sized icons, animated icons, shadowed
icons, icons which included sound, and some other things. Now say there was a
standards committee and they decided on a standard for all OSK GUI icons. If
that standard did not include EVERYTHING that our icon format did ,(and if I
was still developing this GUI,) then I wouldn't even give it a second glance.

    The problem with standards is that they sometimes have the tendency to
cater to the lowest common denominator. For OS9 that might mean developing
standards which would have to be useable on a terminal. That would be
unacceptable. This in a way describes my biggest fear about the MM/1 users
adopting G-Windows as our standard. I don't know enough about GW to be sure
but the fear is that software would be written so that it could run on the
least capable system possible, like DOC programmers writing software so that
the 8088, or at least the 286 would be required to run it. (Oops, make that
DOS programmers!) Since there are a number of systems out there whose graphic
abilities can surpass the MM/1 that wouldn't be a big deal, but what about
sound? If you wrote Write Right! for G-Windows would it still have the ability
to use a variety of sounds, like that pleasing chime? This is a small example,
but its often the small things that make a program a winner. Most importantly,
as I understand it, G-Windows really needs the highest res screen to run, and
I've been told that it doesn't support lower res screens. *IF* this is true
then I couldn't use it to write for the MM/1's 256 color modes. Also
unacceptable.

    Standards should give the ability to create portable software, but they
shouldn't prevent, or even discourage programmer's use of each machine's
unique special capabilities.

...Eric...

-*-

83231 20-NOV 22:31 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 82953)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ

David,

  > And if the community wants standards, they will enforce them by avoiding
  > use of offending software.

    Considering the general lack of software that's being complained about in
the first place I don't its a good idea to promote avoiding ANY software as
long as it works and does what its supposed to.

    If it came down to it, would you rather have 100 top-notch programs which
conformed to no standards, or 5 pretty good but not as versatile programs
which conformed to all the standards?

    Granted if the standards are comprehensive enough the programs could be
just as versatile, but still would you want to chase ANY of the FEW developers
away just because they chose not to follow your "standards"? Also, how often
are standards actually as comprehensive as stand-alone super-program formats?

...Eric...

-*-

83240 21-NOV 07:48 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83230)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC

I agree on points about standards but threre are reasons to implement them as
well.  While you as a programmer may not use them in every case IF there is a
set of standard ways to do things you will likely follow them when possible.
You can also develop a "standard program" and add the bells and whistles to
specific versions for platforms that can support them.  A Standards committee
need not be confined or delegated to programming eother.  There is a proposal
for one and until I get more info I'll keep an open mind about it.
 Carl

-*-

83242 21-NOV 07:55 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83231)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC

>Also, how often are standards actually as comprehensive as stand-alone
super-program formats?
 Actually the standards can be as simple as the one more or less being taken
for granted in the MS-DOS world right now.  Hit the F1 key for a help menu.
Even Word Perfecrt supports this now. (I think)  As stated before, standards
aren't neccessarily bad.  It is also up to the programmeers as to how closely
they follow them.  An excellent example is UNIX.  Many C programs have been
ported from UNIX with a minimal rewrite of code.  These are extremely well
written (in a lot of csases) powerful programs.  I say let's hear out the
entire discussion on standards and then make a decision and not speculate on
whether or not it will happen this way or not.
 Carl

-*-

83255 21-NOV 19:42 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83240)
     From: MREGC        To: CBJ


  > You can also develop a "standard program" and add the bells and whistles
  > to specific versions for platforms that can support them.

    This is very true. The question is, how many programmers will do this, and
how many will stop at the "standard program"? Not to say I would blame a
programmer for doing so, since customizing various versions for the different
machines might prove to take too much time and not be financially beneficial
to said programmer. Customizing a program to the system which the programmer
owns would be much easier to code and to test, and might be less apt to happen
should the programmer be writing a standard version.

...Eric...

-*-

83256 21-NOV 20:05 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83242)
     From: MREGC        To: CBJ


  > I say let's hear out the discussion on standards and then make a decision..

    I agree. Discussion has never hurt anyone, anyone who is reasonable, that
is. In fact, I even agree with the development of standards. However, my fear
now is the same as it was when this was a big topic earlier this year. Some
of the ideas tossed about seemed to head towards the idea that everything
needed to be designed with the use of terminals in mind. Although there is
some definite merit to this idea, I fear that it would have the effect of
undermining the development of more preferrable (in my opinion) windows based
software. Those aren't the kind of standads I want to see.

    What kind would I like to see? Well, besides the icon standard I'd been
working on, I had done work on developing my own clipboard "standard". It
supports clipping graphics screens, text segments, audio segments, and even
integrated sound/animation segments. I've yet to write a program which needed
to use such a standard, so its never seen the light of day. But this is the
kind of standard I think needs to be developed. What chance do you think there
is of such a standard being developed if everyone is concerned with maintaining
compaibility with evry OSK system, in particular those using terminals?

    Maybe I'm wrong, in fact I hope I am. Maybe there's room for some more
basic standards as you mentioned, and also room for some more advanced
standards like I'm talking about. We shall see. *IF*, however, it came down
to a choice of seeing softare which followed those more basic standards *or*
seeing software which followed more advanced MM/1 specific standards, I'd take
the latter.

...Eric...

-*-

83264 21-NOV 21:46 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83230)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: MREGC

Eric, G windows requires at least 400x600 screen resolution to run, so you
shouldn't have a problem there! It also supports higher resolutions IF
available.

-*-

83272 22-NOV 02:16 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83264)
     From: MREGC        To: DSRTFOX


  > G windows requires at leas 400x600 screen resolution to run...

    Yes, but my question was, will it support the MM/1 LOWER resolution of
320 x 200 in 256 colors? If it doesn't then It'll only be of limited use to me.

..Eric...

-*-

83273 22-NOV 05:54 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83256)
     From: JEJONES      To: MREGC

 > I agree. Discussion has never hurt anyone, anyone who is reasonable,
 > that is. In fact, I even agree with the development of standards. However,
 > my fear now is the same as it was when this was a big topic earlier this
 > year. Some of the ideas tossed about seemed to head towards the idea that
 > everything needed to be designed with the use of terminals in mind.

The ultimate reductio ad absurdum of that argument would claim that people
shouldn't be writing all these programs that assume interactivity, because
it keeps one from buying and using cheap keypunches and card readers.  (I
haven't priced them, so I can't say for sure that they're cheap--but I
would think that you couldn't give them away these days.)  One could even
point to a bunch of software--editors, SCCS-like programs, MUSIC V--written
for batch operation on mainframes.  Bring back IEFBR14!  NOT.

That said, there *is* an argument for flexibility.  A blind user doesn't
have too much use for a GUI, and for that matter, there's something to be
said for making it easy for *another program* to use programs.  It would
be nice if programs could be written as modules that do the dirty work and
communicate with a replaceable interface module of one's choice, be it
[A-Z]-Windows, a curses-driven display, or whatever (a serial connection
to another machine, perhaps?).

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not necessarily
those of any organization.
*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83275 22-NOV 15:51 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83255)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC

The point is that it is strictly up to you as a programmer to decide whether
you'll add the bells and whistles.  There are many programs that were written
on another platform and OS that give you options for graphics (CGA, EGA, VGA,
etc.)  I think you get my drift.  If you use the lowest common denominator then
some functions are not available to you but you can still run the bare program.
The point is the bells and whistles were added because they help sell a product
to the higher end crowd but the main program is designed to sell to everyone.
Carl

-*-

83291 23-NOV 01:04 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83230)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Eric, if you wish to have standards you can live with, help write them!

My goal is, not only to help adopt new standards, but to bring some old
ones that will help us out to OS9.   So, watch this space, you'll probably see
a mix of old and new, that hopefully make sense to all of us (well, at least
most of us! )   ;)


           David

-*-

83292 23-NOV 01:11 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83231)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Eric, I hope that the developer will participate in this simply because they
want to.   But they also have to realize that if we're to survive at all,
mainstreming plays an important role.  Support for more DOS and MAC file types
is a must.   The most impo
rtant new development promoted by the MM/1 is the use of IFF, and WAV files.
And that should just be a start.   The other need is for decreased development
time.   Most of us both program AND run our businesses, and that is a tough row
to hoe.  It's much
 of the reason for the sparcity of software.   If you've noticed, even those
who gripe the loudest about a lack of software are not very quick about adding
to the available titles.   Why is that??   Perhaps a standards organization
could help to fix that p
roblem.   Nor need the standards be confining.   That is one reason I propose
an ongoing process, centered in  a branch of the OS9 Users Group.   If you're
worried about confinement - check out the ANSI C standard.   I've not noticed
the standard keeping a
nyone from extending the language, or work from getting done.


-*-

83294 23-NOV 03:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83273)
     From: MREGC        To: JEJONES


  >  It would be nice if programs could be written as modules that do the
  > dirty work and communicate with a replaceable interface module of one's
  > choice.

    That *could* be a nice way for things to be, as long as the program
contained ALL the modules it needed to be complete, (I tend to agree with the
guy who got jumped on here several months ago for saying that he didn't like
OS-9 programmers' ways of saying "Here's my term program. If you want buffer
capture then save to disk and use your favorite editor! If you want to use
xmodem for downloading jump to another window and use your favorite x-protocol
program! If you want zmodem switch to another window..." I'll take Ultimaterm
any day.) Also, the fact that the program exists in modules needs to be
transparent to the user, should they so desire.

    Despite OS-9's power, *I* think some of the ways we tend to use (misuse)
th OS's abilities obscure the benefits of the OS, especially when compared
to the *complete*, (albeit out of necessity,) programs found on single-tasking
systems, even RS-DOS.

...Eric...

-*-

83295 23-NOV 03:09 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83275)
     From: MREGC        To: CBJ


  > If you use the lowest common denominator then some functions are not
  > available to you but you can still run the bare program. The point is the
  > bells and whistles were added because they help sell a product...

    True. But consider this possibility. In orer to convince the few people in a

smaller market to buy your program you have to put in all the bells and
whistles you can. Expand hat market through use of a cross-platform windowing
system, and maybe you can sell enough copies of the more bare program without
having to add all the bells and whistles in for each version of the program and
still turn a hefty profit without all the extra work.

    Now, of course this is only a possibility. The one factor that could
completely invalidate the argument is competition. If the expanded market
creates competition then each programmer will have to make his program as good
as possible in order for it to survive. But in oir marketplace, what's the
odds of sch a competitive struggle taking place? (I really need to do
something about all these typos!) Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd say slim and
none.

..Eric...

-*-

83297 23-NOV 03:16 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83291)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ


  > Eric, if you wish to have standards you can live with, help write them!

    David, as you can see I am never at a loss for an opinion or a way in
which to express it. If there is online discussions about these proposed
"standards" then you will be sure to see input from me.

...Eric...

-*-

83298 23-NOV 03:29 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83292)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ

David,

    All very good points, and I hope you're correct. Some flexible standards
which allowed for a little flavor to remain in the software would surely be a
positive thing. Hopefully competition will develop which will prevent my fear
of "plain vanilla programs" from becomming a reality.

    As far as standards go, I would first like to see a position taken on one
aspect of the OS-9 programming community. We often hear the word mainstream
used as a place we ought to be. Well, in the mainstream, probably because, ok,
entirely becuas the mainstream is full of single-tasking systems, we see
programs which are entirely self-contained, meaning no outside utilities or
other programs are needed to make one program complete. In the OS-9
community we have a habit of doing just the opposite. Some may call it
re-inventing the wheel in every program, but if we want to enter this
"mainstream" it is my opinion that mainstream users (myself included) will
demand the same type of self contained, self sufficient software that is found
on single-tasking systems. In other words, a marketable terminal program will
need to have buffer capture (this *may* be an option, but probably not),
xmodem, ymodem, zmodem, and whatever other popular protocols that there are,
*built into* the program, not only accessible using outside programs in
another window.

    Are we willing to do the things necessary to enter the "mainstream"?

...Eric...

-*-

83300 23-NOV 03:52 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83272)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: MREGC

I am using G-Windows.  It will display Gif's that are 320x200x256,
I believe.  At least it has displayed most every resolution I
have tried so far.  I don't know how the 320x200 would look
for the entire desktop, though.  It might look a little
rough.

Allen

-*-

83315 23-NOV 20:03 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83300)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: MREGC

According to Steve Adams (G-Windows writer), the desktop needs at least 600x400
to display properly. It will display the lower res graphics also though.

-*-

83324 23-NOV 21:41 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83294)
     From: JEJONES      To: MREGC

 > That *could* be a nice way for things to be, as long as the program
 > contained ALL the modules it needed to be complete

There's completeness and there's completeness.

To go back to the infamous example: if I get into Ultimaterm and go
looking through the capture buffer, can I easily search for the line
that matches a certain regular expression, or select a range of lines,
sort them, and save the sorted result to a file?  I am not now, nor
have I ever been, a Disk BASIC user :-), so I can't say for sure, but I
think not.  Those are trivial tasks with common Unix editors that have
been ported to OS-9.

Someone specifically writing an editor is sure to do a better job of it
than someone writing something that will get by as part of a larger program;
people, to put it mildly, get accustomed to their favorite editor.  (Just
read the emacs/vi flamage on the net if you doubt that.)  Why make people
relearn whatever makeshift facilities people come up with as part of an
attempt to write a "complete" program?

What made OSTerm "incomplete" is that it was *not* designed with modularity
in mind, but instead, for example, rolled its own [xy]modem file transfer
routines.


Opinions herein are those of their respective authors and not necessarily
those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83334 24-NOV 02:52 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83300)
     From: MREGC        To: AJMLFCO


  > I don't know how the 320x200 would look for the entire desktop, though.

    Actucally I wasn't referring to running the desktop in that mode. I agree
that it needs the max resoulution. I was just wondering if the G-library
supports a standard set of screen resolutions compatible with every platform,
or if it supports every res/colors combination of the particular machine its
being run on.

  > I am using G-Windows.

    Good, then you can answer a question which recently came to mind. Does
G-Windows support some kind of clipboard standard? If so, and I guess you
would have to have the developer's pack to know this, how comprhensive of a
standard is it?

...Eric...

-*-

83337 24-NOV 03:36 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83324)
     From: MREGC        To: JEJONES


  > Why make people relearn whatever makeshift facilities people come up with
  > as part of an attempt to write a "complete" program?

    Why make people have to use another program just to perform the basic
functions of telecommunicating? Look at the response of an average single-
tasker. They seem to want software (and so do I) which is stand alone. If we
want to attract these people then we have to respect their wishes. I would
never want to take away your ability to use whatever means you prefer to do
your buffer captures and file transfers, but I think we should also support
those who prefer to have these features built into the programs they use.

...Eric...

-*-

83339 24-NOV 06:02 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83337)
     From: JEJONES      To: MREGC

 > Why make people have to use another program just to perform the basic
 > functions of telecommunicating?

That's a false dichotomy.  If the application is properly written, then
the average user doesn't have to know that an operation is being implemented
by spawning another process.
*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83341 24-NOV 06:32 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83291)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: NIMITZ

 > Eric, if you wish to have standards you can live with, help write them!
 >

David, am I missing something? Didn't we go through this a year and a half ago
with pitiful results?

I would think we need to put our efforts behind more applications (standard
or not) first to help us decide wether or not we have a market for which to
write a standard!


*- Steve -*


-*-

83342 24-NOV 07:39 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83297)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Thanks.  We need a great deal more discussion here, and also some basic
agreement on the way to go.  But the market place will always enforce it's
opinion, even if it doesn;t have one
!


-*-

83343 24-NOV 07:42 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83337)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Actually, you've touched on one side effect I hope to gain from a standards
organization.   More libraries so that adequate routines can be rolled into new
apps in record time so we can get more AND better applications.

        Davi

-*-

83344 24-NOV 07:46 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83341)
     From: NIMITZ       To: SCWEGERT

Steve,

      Part of the functions of the standards organization that I envision
wouuld be helping to get the programs right the first tiem.   And I am willing
to go trough this every month if I have to to make it happen.   What efforts
are going forth for new ap
plications now??   Very little.  And Very Slow.   Too little too late spells
disaster.   It is time to fix that once and for all. We waste too much time on
the development of routines that are available as libraries for DOS  and UNIX
and don't spend enough
t time on the things that make a program distinctive.   So, this is a
development gain as much as anything else.


-*-

83347 24-NOV 16:11 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83337)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC

Hear, hear!   I use OSterm all the time and IF I don't want to use the D/L
protocol that it provides I can always open a shell!  Sure the program could
have been (maybe should have been) written differently but it wasn't and I
could mention many programs under OS9 that could be written differently.  It
all boils down to this...the author MUST provide what the public wants.  If he
does that then his product will be used.  OSterm is fairly popular so I guess
the author(s) must have done something right.
Carl

-*-

83352 24-NOV 21:16 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83347)
     From: NIMITZ       To: CBJ

Bravo, Carl!   That is exactly what I meant when I said the public would
do enforcement of standards for us.  That is why I think a standards
organization
can work.  We will set standards by getting input from BOTH programmers and
users.  Then, when a consensus is reached, both can have software they are
reasonably happy with, that sells!


-*-

83358 25-NOV 02:56 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83339)
     From: MREGC        To: JEJONES


  > If the application is properly written, then the average user doesn't have
  > know that an operation is being implemented by spawning another process.

    I totally agree. However I think what you meant is not quite what you said,
and I'm agreeing with things that follow from what you actually said.

    If the average user doesn't know that a supplemental process is being used,
then that other process would also have to be written by the same programmer as
the main program, since the couldn't include and use someone else's text editor
or x/y/z protocol with their program. This fits my definition of a complete
program. If you want to use other, better stand-alone programs to perform
certain functions, fine, more power to you. If, however, you don't want to do
so, then you shouldn't be forced to.

...Eric...

-*-

83359 25-NOV 03:01 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83342)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ

    As you seem to be promoting some more graphically inclined features of the
MM/1, I think one of the first things that should be done is that the MM/1
programming community needs to get together and figure out what windowing
system were going to support, and then develop and/or agree on some standards
for window useage, such as a clipboard standard, an icon standard, a filepicker
standard (such as the one Mike includes in the C library), a sound standard
(there are several out there, which one should we use?), amd an animation
standard. THEN we can worry about developing some general cross-platform OSK
standards.

...Eric...

-*-

83361 25-NOV 03:08 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83347)
     From: MREGC        To: CBJ

    People keep referring to OSTerm in this conversation, I think partly due
to the example I used earlier in this discussion. I wish I had some idea of
how that program works, so I could know that we're all on the same wavelength
in this discussion!

...Eric...

-*-

83366 25-NOV 10:36 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83339)
     From: MRGOOD       To: JEJONES

Ultimately, this discussion is pointless. If we want to see
what users REALLY want, have both camps put out commercial
packages and see who sells more.

Hugo

-*-

83368 25-NOV 12:03 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83358)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: MREGC

 >
 > If the average user doesn't know that a supplemental process is being
 > used,
 > then that other process would also have to be written by the same
 > programmer as
 > the main program, since the couldn't include and use someone else's text
 > editor
 > or x/y/z protocol with their program.
 >

KVED is an excellent example of what you are talking about. It is a graphical
front end to the editor VED from Bob van der Poel. KVED was written by Ken
Scales. Of course, KVED would be pretty useless to anyone who does not have
a copy of VED, and not just any copy, since the two programs must work very
closely together KVED assures that the version of VED you have is compatible
with it. So, since KVED is pretty useless by itself, Ken never bothered to
try and market it. What he did do was make an arrangement with Bob van der
Poel such that KVED is not distributed with VED and if you have an MM/1 (VED
works on ANY OSK platform, since it uses TERMCAP) and like GUI's you are
free to use KVED. I do not know if Ken is getting a piece of the action from
VED sales (I think he should!) but that is between him and Bob.

Another example is a projecttI am working on and hope to have ready for
holiday delivery. There is a version of GNU Chess which was ported to OSK. It
has a very crude user interface, displaying the chess board setup with ASCII
characters like p, k, Q and R. Periods, . , indicate empty squares. And to
input a move you enter something like e3e4. I have written a graphical
front end to GNU Chess for the MM/1 (well writing one, that is). It draws
a chess board on your MM/1 monitor using full color graphics. Pieces are
moved by pointing and clicking the mouse. It has the standard MM/1 Menu
Interface designed by Mike Haaland. IMHO, it looks good. And actually
playing Chess with you in the background is a copy of GNU Chess running
in a child process with my program sending and getting data to/from it
via pipes. Since GNU Chess is freely distributable by anyone as long as
you make the sources available, I will be able to include a copy of GNU
Chess on each copy of K-Windows Chess (KChess).


------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83369 25-NOV 13:29 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83361)
     From: MITHELEN     To: MREGC

I think KBCom is a good example of a program that allows flexibility of
use of outside programs, and simplicity. KBCom comes with its own
external/standalone
XModem program, which is called through KBComs Extension interface. Extensions
are easily setup for any other program, so, adding Zmodem capability to KBCom
was
a cinch, just "bind" a key to the new command to run as an extension. Eddie
was working on adding a lot of other nice features (like scroll back through
the internal Buffer that KBCom already keeps) but his MM/1 got Zapped by
lightning back in the Spring '93, and he is still waiting on it to be returned
to him
(I think Mark was real close to shipping it out last time I talked to Eddie)

--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 Please, Send Money! My hard drive crashed, and I'm too broke to get a new one.

-*-

83372 25-NOV 15:57 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83369)
     From: MREGC        To: MITHELEN

Form the sounds of it, KBCom is just the type of "complete" program I've been
referring to in which both hardcore OS-9 users and "normal" non-OS9 users can
both get the most out of it. Hats off to Eddie.

..Eric...

-*-

83373 25-NOV 16:01 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83368)
     From: MREGC        To: COLORSYSTEMS


    Both of the programs you refer to are front ends written after the fact
for specific programs. This is not quite like what I've been referring to.

    I think a better example comes from a message that Paul J. (Mithlen) just
left to me in which he talks about how well written KBCom is in that it has
*its own* features built in, but allows you to use other programs as a
substitute for its built in features if you wish. This method of programming
is the ideal I hope we can all strive for.

...Eric...

-*-

83380 25-NOV 23:09 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83373)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: MREGC

 > I think a better example comes from a message that Paul J. (Mithlen)
 > just left to me in which he talks about how well written KBCom is in that
 > it has *its own* features built in, but allows you to use other programs
 > as a substitute for its built in features if you wish. This method of
 > programming is the ideal I hope we can all strive for.

I have KBCom and I know of np feature it has which can be performed by
other programs. What it does do is use external programs to do the up
and downloading.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83382 26-NOV 04:28 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83380)
     From: MREGC        To: COLORSYSTEMS

    As I don't have KBCom myself I don't really know for sure how its
designed. I'm just going off of what I was told. You may want to refer to
MITHELEN's message to me to see what were talking about.

...Eric...

-*-

83383 26-NOV 18:09 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83382)
     From: MITHELEN     To: MREGC

KBCom is kinda set up like WizPro was, but with a much better interface
for calling external programs... To provoid download capabilities,Eddie
supplied his "XYmodem" program. XYModem is a really nice standalone
x/y/ybatch transfer program (I also use it as the transfer program for my BBS)
But, Eddie didn't include Zmodem support. But, with the callable extensions
it was easy to add zmodem support, by just definind an extension to start up
rz/sz in a window, passing watever parameters, and prompting for file names
(in the case of sz) I also have extensions for adding say a tagline to
the end of a message. I am thinking of adding a further extension that will
"grab" the current screen and save it to a temp file, start up Emacs (with the
temp file as the file) Then I can edit the grabed screen, and when I exit
Emacs, it would do a ascii dump back out the terminal port... Gee... I thik
I'll try setting that up tonight... would make it a lot easier for me to quote
and respond to messages...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 Please, Send Money! My hard drive crashed, and I'm too broke to get a new one.

-*-

83384 26-NOV 18:13 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83383)
     From: BOISY        To: MITHELEN

I'd be interested in that script!

Indeed, KBCOM is an excellent terminal program.  And its scripting
is very handy.  For instance, every week day morning at 3:00am
(while I'm asleep), KBCom dials up Delphi and grabs my choice of
stock quotes.  The output is loged to a file, which is then mailed
to me via UUCP 5.1bb.

It's a super terminal program!

-*-

83385 26-NOV 18:32 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83384)
     From: MITHELEN     To: BOISY

Well, The quoteing script was a hypothethical thing... I didn't actually
do it yet... I just tried to whip one up quick, and ran into two snags...
the first is, the emacs gets the screen width and height wrong, and the
second is, the "grab" hot key, always makes you type a file name (You can't
make it default to a file name) The first problems is the one that really keeps
it from working... if there is a way to pass the current screen width/height to
emacs, them maybe that would fix it... you'd just always be prompte for a
fileto save the screen in before it fired up emacs...

Hopefully, when Eddie gets working on KBcom again I can have him add some other
feaqtures to fix the problem... I know he has plans on implementing a complete
scripting language for it.

-*-

83389 26-NOV 20:42 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83359)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Actually, Eric,  I see no reason to delay general cross-platform OSK
standards for KWindows programmers sakes.  I'm concerned in this context for
ALL OSK users.   In fact, I'm working on getting Kevin Darling to write some
docs
for KWindows that would allow standards development, nor is he insensitive to
the issue.   But you have some good ideas, sen dmyd em your real name and
address, so
I can add you to a list of particilpants??


-*-

83396 26-NOV 22:58 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83341)
     From: THETAURUS    To: SCWEGERT

        >>I would think we need to put our efforts behind more
   applications (standard or not) first to help us decide whether or not
   we have a market for which to write a standard!

        I agree. Somewhere down the road, standards for Professional OS9
   will most likely be a necessity for the community, but not unless
   there is software to apply them too. The programmers need to get the
   programs out first. I know that is easier said then done, with the
   amount of programmers available now, but one way or another it needs
   to be done. Hopefully sometime in the future when the OS9 User's Group
   is in full swing, it will be able to help push that software
   developement somehow.
        >Chris<

-*-

83404 27-NOV 04:21 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83383)
     From: MREGC        To: MITHELEN

    Yes, that definitely sounds like Eddie has the right idea. Maybe I'll
have to give KBCom a look.

..Eric...

-*-

83405 27-NOV 04:21 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83368)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: COLORSYSTEMS

Zack,

 > And to input a move you enter something like e3e4. I have written a
 > graphical front end to GNU Chess for the MM/1 (well writing one, that is).
 > It draws a chess board on your MM/1 monitor using full color graphics.
 > Pieces are moved by pointing and clicking the mouse. It has the standard
 > MM/1 Menu Interface designed by Mike Haaland. IMHO, it looks good. And

Sounds great!  I've been itching for a graphical chess program.  I guess
it was just a matter of time before you brought it into reality!  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83408 27-NOV 04:31 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83389)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ


  > I see no reason to delay general cross-platform OSK standards for
  > KWindows programmers sakes.

    I think just maybe we need to get our own house in order before setting out
to cure the whole community's ills. I'm not talking KWindows programmers here,
I'm talking *MM/1* programmers, (granted these 2 groups may be one and the
same.) I just think it wouldn't be to our benefit to devote time to
developing windowing standards for say GWindows when the MM/1 group might
decide to stay behind KWindows.

    Promoting the advancement of OSK *is* important to me, but I own an MM/1,
and promoting it is what's most important to me.

    The personal info you requested is forthcoming.

...Eric...

-*-

83415 27-NOV 06:05 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83343)
     From: TELENUT      To: NIMITZ


    Yes, a shared code library would be nice. I will soupport the EthaWin
front end and expect to use it as soon as it's available.


     Dave

-*-

83428 27-NOV 16:56 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83408)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Eric, I'm talking about the personal OSK market as a whole.  And certainly
we need to get our act together, though that concerns hardware production
more than anything.  But by addressing certain needs of the general market
simultaineously, we gain more input and faster development.

         David

-*-

83429 27-NOV 17:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83396)
     From: NIMITZ       To: THETAURUS

Chris, the if the standards come out WITH the applications then we won't
have to redevelop everything later.........


-*-

83444 28-NOV 03:32 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83428)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ


  > I'm talking about the personal OSK market as a whole. ... by addressing
  > certain needs of the general market simultaneously, we gain more input and
  > faster development.

    Understood. And a very good point. I just don't want to be out fixing the
"OSK market as a whole" while our own little part of that market is in disarray.

I also wonder, "faster development" of what? If its generic, vanilla, cross-
platform OSK programs with no flair, then I'm really not concerned. But if its
powerful, windowed, maximized for each specific machine software, well then now
you're talking! If we can take care of our own problems and the communitiy's at
the same time, then all the better. Count me in.

    On a side note, in discussing software standards, there is one thing that's
severely disappointed me with the MM/1 software so far. And may I first state
that *I am also very guilty of doing this same thing!* We have a windowing
system with windows capable of being moved and resized. While many programs
out allow you to move them, I can't think of any that let you resize them. I
had thought that, when writing the stuff I've done, that because my programs
needed the full screen to work in, that it would be of no use allowing the
user to resize it. However, this is far from true, just look at the windowing
systems of other computer's out there. Windows can be resized for easy storage
on the screen, and you could also use the scrollbars to scroll across the full
window display.

    And before anyone says it, let me first respond to the obvious argument
against what I'm saying. "Under OS-9 you have multiple screens and therefore
you don't need the ability to move or resize windows, when you can just hot-key
from screen to screen." Well, I happen to like having multiple windows of
varying sizes on one screen. The operating system supports it, so why shouldn't
our programs let us do it? In particular, terminal programs and text editors.
It would be sensible for me to shrink my term program to say, 5 lines, and store

it at the top or bottom of the screen so I could keep an eye on the text
capture that I'm doing of the message base while I'm also editing some code in
my somewhat shrunken text editor window. As it stands right now, I don't think
the MM/1 has the programs which would allow me to do that. What a waste.

    As a programmer I'm vowing to include resizeability into any *new* software
that I develop from here on out, and as a user I'm now demanding, (ok,
demanding is a little strong, I'm asking,) that any software I purchase from
here on out give me the flexibility that I wish for and that the operating
system easily supports.

    End of sermon. Opposing arguments may start ... now.

..Eric...

-*-

83460 28-NOV 13:22 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83444)
     From: FHOGG        To: MREGC

GWindows allows moving and resizing windows without the application having to
do anything.

This should/could be added to KWindows rather than individual applications.

Just a thought... Hope I don't get pounced on for making it.


-*-

83465 28-NOV 14:33 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83444)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: MREGC

Eric,

 > state that *I am also very guilty of doing this same thing!* We have a
 > windowing system with windows capable of being moved and resized. While
 > many programs out allow you to move them, I can't think of any that let
 > you resize them. I had thought that, when writing the stuff I've done,

Actually, I can think of quite a few that let you resize them, although
most are just small utilities.  I try to add resizing to all my
utilities and small games (Othello, GClock, StrMan, ViewFax, etc.), and
yes, the next version of Write-Right will even allow this.  :)

 > be of no use allowing the user to resize it. However, this is far from
 > true, just look at the windowing systems of other computer's out there.
 > Windows can be resized for easy storage on the screen, and you could also
 > use the scrollbars to scroll across the full window display.

For some things, it's not bad (like text apps), but for some graphics
apps, it's very hard, since if your virtual screen is larger than your
displayed screen, and you have to FFill a region that resides partly on-
screen and partly off-screen, I think you can see the problem.  All the
windowing systems I've seen keep track of virtual screens for the
programmer, but K-Windows does not yet support this feature.  I don't
believe graphics programmers should spend their time trying to support
virtual windows, since that is something that needs to be supported in
the windowing system itself.  However, graphics that can be rescaled to
fit in varying window sizes should be supported, like the programs I
mentioned in the previous paragraph do.


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83471 28-NOV 16:49 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83444)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: MREGC

When the cgfx.l library has all of the nexessary code for handling
resizing, dynamic scoll bars and all that other stuff which is done by
the OS in MS-Windows, then I'll take advantage of them in any new program
I write.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83473 28-NOV 18:11 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83471)
     From: EMTWO        To: MREGC

 As others have said, while you can do some moveing and resizeing under
Kwindows, its not exactly user-friendly to do so. The K-Windows has some
problems dealing with 'windows' that are recieveing output. You can't
resize a window when thats happening. Other programmers have had to deal
with other aspects of K-Windows that need work. Until then, the only
real reason to have 19 different tiny windows on one screen is because
you only HAVE one screen. K-Windows at least handles that nicely.

-*-

83476 28-NOV 19:37 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83460)
     From: MREGC        To: FHOGG


  > GWindows allows moving and resizing windows without the application having
  > to do anything. ... Just a thought... Hope I don't get pounced on for
  > making it.

    Of course not Frank. Information dispensation is always a good thing as far
as I'm concerned. In fact, it answers a question which I'd had about GWindows.
Tell me, when you shrink a GWindow, does GW allow the use of the scrollbars to
scroll around the virtal full screen? Also, can the programmer use the
scrollbars to scroll around an area larger than full screen? If bth of these
are possible, what happens when say, your program uses the scrollbars to scroll
across a sheet of music which is actually several screens long, but when the
user shrinks the program window, GW wans to use the scrollbars to scroll
around the virtual full screen. Which one wins out?

    Hope I made that example clear enough. If you're not sure what I mean, just
shout.

..Eric...

-*-

83478 28-NOV 19:48 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83465)
     From: MREGC        To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

  > Actually, I can think of quite a few that let you resize them...

    You're right, and in fact I've seen most of these, I guess I was just
thinking about the bigger apps and these just slipped my mind. :)

  > and yes, the next version of Write-Right will even allow this. :)

    Good! You know that's something I was looking for. Keep up the good work.

  > ... but for some graphics apps its very hard.

    Oh I'm well aware of that. In fact, twice in the last 2 - 3 years I've
tried to start discussions on how we should handle the virtual screen
scrolling thing, but no one was interested. Now it looks like we're ready to
talk anout it. Even though it wouls still be nice, I can understand if say a
game doesn't support it, as most games wouldn't even be written to run in a
window, (I'm writing one right now and I know I'm not even thinking about
trying to have it run in a window, much less one that can be resized.) But
there are just some things, (term progs, word pros, DBs, etc...) that should
be done in resizeable windows, and the extra code to handle scaling the text
output to the window size just wouldn't be that much.

..Eric...

-*-

83480 28-NOV 19:57 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83476)
     From: FHOGG        To: MREGC

Eric,

 > when you shrink a GWindow, does GW allow the use of the scrollbars
 > to scroll around the virtal full screen?

Yes it does. As a matter of fact the scroll bars are proportional to
the amount of the window you are looking at. By that I mean that by
looking at the scroll bar area you can see about what size the actual
window is compared to what you are looking at. (There must be an
easier way to say this)... whatever... it's pretty neat.

 > Can the programmer use the scrollbars to scroll around an area larger
 > than full screen? etc etc

I >think< so??? You determine the size of the virtual window and the
size of the actual window when you open it. (Even where it appears
on the screen) I don't have the docs here to really answer you.
Perhaps someone else who is using GW can answer that and the other
question.

Frank

-*-

83481 28-NOV 20:04 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83471)
     From: MREGC        To: COLORSYSTEMS

  > When the cgfx.l library has all of the necessary code for handling
  > resizing, dynamic scoll bars and all that other stuff which is done by the
  > OS in MS-Windows...

    First, I'd really like to know what you mean by "necessary code", since
K-Windows allows you to resize, and find out what the new window size is, I
don't think anything else is "necessary", helpful, but definitely not
necessary.

    Second, I've written my own dynamic scrollbars routines before, and it
really didn't take much time or effort to do so. Mike has also done this in
his get_dir routine, and he didn't find it very hard either. I realize some
of the code involved in writing for resizeable windows is long and complicated,
but dynamic scrollbars isn't one of those things.

    Finally, I agree that it would be nice if the windowing system handled more
of the work, but I don't think its realistic for us to expect our windowing
system to be quite as dynamic as MS-Windows. After all, as we're all quite
aware, we arn't exactly in the mainstream here, and what Kevin/the new KW
programmer got/will get out of their efforts falls FAR short of what the
Microsoft programmer got for his efforts. In our market, the programmer is
simply goig to have to work a little harder, its a fact of life we have to live
with, unless we institute David Graham's idea of writing this code and
incorporating it into libraries available to everyone. As Joel pointed out,
resizing support is available in several programs. Those programmers didn't
find it an impossible task, why should the rest of us? (Myself included)

...Eric...

-*-

83482 28-NOV 20:10 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83473)
     From: MREGC        To: EMTWO


    See my message 83481 to Zack.

    As Joel has pointed out, several programs out there do support resizing.
It is true that for some programs, the extra code needed to do so would be
almost overwhelming, especially if you run into K-Windows problems. But for
many program, supporting resizing would not be all that much of a
Herculean effort. With all the current talk about us developing mainstream
quality software, I think making this extra effort will be a must.

...Eric...

Opinions expressed herein are never guaranteed to meet with public approval. :)


-*-

83484 28-NOV 20:24 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83385)
     From: THETAURUS    To: MITHELEN

        >> I know he has plans on implementing a complete scripting
   language for it.

        Is this also planned for Level II, or is he solely MM/1 now? I
   took one look at the docs on writing a log on file and got discouraged
   right off. Adding the Xymodem protocols<extensions> wasn't as hard as
   I thought it would be after I finally got them set up. Now if I can
   just get Zmodem set up<SZ never even works when I use it with
   supercomm> and a dial up/logon script written I'll be golden.
   Unfortunately, as neat as KBCom looks, I have a hard time everytime I
   go back to trying to set it up. I hope future versions are a little
   more user friendly.
        >Chris<

-*-

83486 28-NOV 20:52 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83478)
     From: MRGOOD       To: MREGC

Doesn't cgfx.l 5 have a text scaling function? I could swear I
saw something about that in the documentation.

Hugo

-*-

83504 28-NOV 22:20 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83484)
     From: MITHELEN     To: THETAURUS

Yes, Eddie will update the CoCo version after he gets the features
working on the MM/1 version. He is still without MM/1 at this moment (he
is sitting right behind me in his Fermi Lab Office)

Send me some E-Mail about the zmodem and autodial macros, and I'll send you
a copy of mine when I get home...

Eddie plans on adding a REAL autodialer, with script language, "infinate"
terminal type support (by  reverse interpeting termcap)

Eddie sayz he should have his system real soon, like another week or so...
I know he looks forward to getting back to hacking...
--
Paul

-*-

83512 29-NOV 00:06 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83334)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: MREGC

Eric,
I don't know the specific answers to  your questions
about G-Windows clipboard standards  or supported
resoulutions as I don't have the Developer's package.
I think a text file describing all of the (at that time)
supported "C" functions is in the OSk database here.

Allen

-*-

83515 29-NOV 00:28 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83337)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: MREGC

Eric,
I have been following your talk about Bloatware for a while
here.  I think there is a proper way to get a program that
uses outside resources built.  As a general rule, I don't like
it when I have to open another shell and use the command line
to start a utility that should have been part of the program.
An example would be in 6809 Osterm, where I had to either start
up a shell or hot-key to another window to start Zmodem.  In the
programer's defense, there are many protocols and it is hard to
keep up with them all.  On my OSK machine, I am using Sterm, which
is indeed a Simple Terminal program.  But, in this case, the
Zmodem protocol is called from a simple keypress sequence even
though the Zmodem program is external to Sterm.  I believe this
is acceptable and even preferable to putting the Zmodem code
directly in the terminal program.  Adding new options is easy,
even for a user without the development system,  if the
application is in graphical mode under G-Windows by adding the
download protocol to the custom menu.

My vote is to have the programs modular but to lobby
for better program designs that make the modularity
invisible to the normal user.

Allen

-*-

83517 29-NOV 00:48 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83359)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: MREGC

Eric,

I hope you don't think I am picking on you by replying
to several of your messages in a row here.  It's just that
you have brought up a couple of interesting concepts....

I wonder about a "
der about the wisdom of a "standards" effort here.
I say this because the group that frequents this forum
and even the other forums represent a very tiny percentage
of the total customer base for OS9 and OSk products.  Are you
going to set standards for CD-I?  Industrial users? Telecommunications?
Embedded systems?  Etc, Etc...

First, get the User's Group built up and include more than
50 to 100 hobbyists in it.  When you have a representative
group of paid professional programmers on board, then we can
consider talk of standards.  I suspect we don't know what
the "market" is yet.  Let's research that first.  Lets get
more OS9 users from all areas involved in the User's group
first.

Allen

-*-

83518 29-NOV 01:06 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83480)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: FHOGG

Frank,
Yes you can use Gwindows to scroll across an object larger
than even a full screen!  I have a 1024x768 Gif that I can
view using the HGwindows scroll bars.  It's about two CRT's
wide by about 1-1/2 CRT's high. ( should have been Gwindows above,
not HGwindows..ughh).

I had a couple of local OS/2 users over last week.
They liked a lot of what they saw in Gwindows.  There
are some similarities between OS/2 Presentation
Manager and Gwinidows, BTW.

Allen

-*-

83521 29-NOV 04:49 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83476)
     From: PAGAN        To: MREGC

 >when you shrink a GWindow, does GW allow the use of the scrollbars to
 >scroll around the virtal full screen?

 Yes.  You can also write to any part of the screen whether it's displayed or
 not and the screen can be set up to automatically buffer whatever is written
 or drawn to it.

 >can the programmer use the scrollbars to scroll around an area larger
 >than full screen?

 Again, Yes.  There is an upper limit on the size of a screen.  For normal,
 buffered text (terminal emulation) the limit is (I think) 160 columns by 96
 rows.  I don't know what the upper limit for non-emulation screen is but
 it's at least two or three times teh size of my screen (800 X 600).

 >If bth of these are possible, what happens when say, your program uses the
 >scrollbars to scroll across a sheet of music which is actually several
 >screens long, but when the user shrinks the program window, GW wans to use
 >the scrollbars to scroll around the virtual full screen. Which one wins
 >out?

 Hmmmmm.  Never tried this but, based on experience with other aspects of the
 windowing system, I'd say itwould probably be up to the application which
 would 'win out'.  Since G-Windows will, if instructed, notify an application
 whenever a scroll event occurs, the program can decide how it wants to treat
 it.  If the application or user changes the visible section of the virtual
 screen, G-Windows will automatically update the scroll bars.

 Stephen (PAGAN)

-*-

83526 29-NOV 06:08 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83366)
     From: JEJONES      To: MRGOOD

 > Ultimately, this discussion is pointless.

I disagree.  What's really under discussion here is whether the scarce
quantity of people willing to write applications is going to spend
valuable resources reinventing the wheel (and possibly ending up with
an octagonal wheel) or not.

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not necessarily
those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83527 29-NOV 06:08 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83372)
     From: JEJONES      To: MREGC

 > Form the sounds of it, KBCom is just the type of "complete" program I've
 > been referring to in which both hardcore OS-9 users and "normal" non-OS9
 > users can both get the most out of it. Hats off to Eddie.

Well said; I agree wholeheartedly.

James

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not necessarily
those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83528 29-NOV 06:08 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83460)
     From: JEJONES      To: FHOGG

 > GWindows allows moving and resizing windows without the application having
 > to do anything.

Are you saying that if I resize a window in which I have, say, umacs or less
running, and in the former case then type ^l (redraw screen) or the latter
type space (display next screenful), that they will display appropriately
for the new window size?

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83537 29-NOV 21:42 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83444)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Eric,

My idea it that if programmers share development of those parts fo a program
that
are essentially the same regardless of display system, then we acelerate
development across the board.   IE - several developers develope a DBase IV
compabtible file library, and a DBASE language interpreter.   They then
seperately use these components to
develop competing products.   One is standard TTY, the other may be Termcap or
termlib compatible, and others may be based on GWindows ro KWindows.   But the
products are there for consumers, to speed system sales, which then speeds
software sales, and pay
s you to upgrade the program.



-*-

83538 29-NOV 21:58 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83517)
     From: NIMITZ       To: AJMLFCO

Allen, first off, the professional programmers you speak of need a reason to
join.  A standards group is one sort of thing that could draw them.  Secondly,
the 'hobbyists' you speak of include people interested in makeing a living
selling OS9 hardware and software.  It includes people interested in BUYING OS9
stuff.   What makes you think these people alone aren't worth an effort to
develope standards.   You
know, standards are incredibly easy to meet if you have none.  And that is a
major weakness of OS9.  We don't aim for the stars, so we end up shooting
ourselves in the foot!!


-*-

83539 29-NOV 22:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83526)
     From: NIMITZ       To: JEJONES

Hear!  Hear!

Once again, my point, Mr. Jones!   If the market is to move, some limited
cooperation is necessary, and not evil!   Thanks...


-*-

83547 29-NOV 22:39 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83518)
     From: FHOGG        To: AJMLFCO

 > Yes you can use Gwindows to scroll across an object larger
 > than even a full screen!

Actually I did know that... really I did... honest.

I like to hear when OS2 or 'other' people like GWindows.
Tell me more.

Frank

-*-

83548 29-NOV 22:39 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83528)
     From: FHOGG        To: JEJONES

 > Are you saying that if I resize a window in which I have, say, umacs
 > or less running, and in the former case then type ^l (redraw screen)
 > or the latter type space (display next screenful), that they will
 > display appropriately for the new window size?

Yes. The resized window is uh... a window that you are looking thru to
the stuff under it. ummm does that explain it?

Frank

-*-

83560 30-NOV 00:27 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83515)
     From: KSCALES      To: AJMLFCO

Hi, Allen -

 > I think there is a proper way to get a program that
 > uses outside resources built.  As a general rule, I don't like
 > it when I have to open another shell and use the command line
 > to start a utility that should have been part of the program.

I agree.  My view on this whole thread is that "implementation" should
not be the primary issue:  Usability (user-friendliness) and Functionality
should be the first concerns.  Software re-use by using "outside resources"
is a powerful capability of OS-9 that we can apply to accelerate availability
of well-rounded applications.  But we must consider the "user" perspective.

 > An example would be in 6809 Osterm, where I had to either start
 > up a shell or hot-key to another window to start Zmodem.  In the
 > programer's defense, there are many protocols and it is hard to
 > keep up with them all.

Yes, it would be pretty well impossible for an individual to keep a
program current with the latest "state of the art".  The industry moves very
quickly.  Consider archivers:  there is a nearly continuous
stream of programs providing enhanced functionality.

 > Zmodem protocol is called from a simple keypress sequence even
 > though the Zmodem program is external to Sterm.  I believe this
 > is acceptable and even preferable to putting the Zmodem code
 > directly in the terminal program.

Yes.  The "Usability" factor has been satisfied.  The operation is
essentially "seemless" to the user, but the "Functionality" is there.
By using the external Zmodem program, the programmer has significantly
enhanced the basic program.  Effectively, a "plug-in" extension.

As another example, the upcoming release of OSTerm 68K (unfortunately
K-Windows only for now) will also feature the ability to use external
protocols (e.g., Zmodem).  The external protocol is available from
the Transfer menu, and file selection uses the standard OSTerm filepicker
facilities.  If Zmodem had to be re-written for inclusion in OSTerm 68K
then we probably wouldn't see it released in the forseeable future....

 > My vote is to have the programs modular but to lobby
 > for better program designs that make the modularity
 > invisible to the normal user.

Couldn't agree more.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83566 30-NOV 02:49 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83480)
     From: MREGC        To: FHOGG


  > (There must be an easier way to say this)

    Don't worry, Frank, I understand exactly what you mean. Its the same kind
of scrollbars that I mentioned that I, Mike Haaland, and I think one or two
others have already been using, except that we each had to write our own
code to handle them.

    Thanks for the info.

...Eric...

-*-

83567 30-NOV 02:51 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83486)
     From: MREGC        To: MRGOOD


  > Doesn't cgfx.l 5 have a text scaling function?

    Not that I remember, though I could be wrong.

...Eric...

-*-

83568 30-NOV 02:52 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83512)
     From: MREGC        To: AJMLFCO

    Thanks, I'll look for it.

...Eric..

-*-

83569 30-NOV 03:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83515)
     From: MREGC        To: AJMLFCO


  > I don't like it when I have to open another shell and use the command line
  > to start a utility that should have been part of the program.

    I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I generally won't use software that forces
me to do so.

  > I believe this is acceptable and even preferrable to putting the Zmodem
  > code directly in the terminal program.

    Acceptable I can agree with, but I don't know that I'd go as far as to say
"preferrable." Then again, I don't really think it matters one bit, as long as
the method of implementation is completely transparent to the user, unless the
user decides to use a different Zmodem program, or whatever.

  > My vote ... make the modularity invisible to the normal user.

    I couldn't agree more. Extreme stress must be placed on the importance of
"invisible to the normal user."

...Eric...

-*-

83570 30-NOV 03:05 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83517)
     From: MREGC        To: AJMLFCO


  > I hope you don't think I am picking on you...

    Don't worry. I had expected this talk to spawn some actual arguments,
(which I wouldn't have minded one bit,) but its actually been very civil and
intellectual.

  > I wonder about the wisdom of a "standards" effort here.

    If you've been following this conversation then you know it developed
because I was expressing an apprehension about this idea of developing
standards. Though I think with the right ideology behind it
it could be a positive thing.

...Eric...

-*-

83572 30-NOV 03:29 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83521)
     From: MREGC        To: PAGAN


    Very imprssive. GWindows is starting to look better by the minute.
Unfortunately, I keep hitting that cost of the development system wall.

...Eric...

-*-

83573 30-NOV 03:32 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83537)
     From: MREGC        To: NIMITZ

    It would be good to se your idea come to life, but I think it will be
awhile before we see this market suuport several programs of the same type
on different platforms on the same computer. Maybe we should start with some
slightly easier goals. :)

...Eric...

-*-

83574 30-NOV 03:39 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83567)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: MREGC

 > > Doesn't cgfx.l 5 have a text scaling function?
 >
 > Not that I remember, though I could be wrong.

It does have scaletext()  (I believe that's what it's called), but it's
very difficult to control in some instances.  I explored using it in my
page preview routine for Write-Right!, but after a few tests, I wrote my
own code.  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83577 30-NOV 05:02 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83476)
     From: EDELMAR      To: MREGC


 Eric,

 To answer a couple questions you have raised regarding G-WINDOWS.

 In an earlier message to Allen (AJMLFCO), you asked whether G-WINDOWS
 could support images, etc. of resolutions other than that currently in use.
 The answer is yes.  Example - suppose you are in a 800x600x256 mode. You
 can view any image of 800x600x256 or less in its entirety on the screen.  If
 the image is 320x200x16, it will simply use only a portion of the screen -
 slightly less 25% and not use the full CLUT.  If the image is larger, say
 1024x768x256, than most of it will appear on the screen.  Using the horizontal
 and vertical scroll bars, you can view other portions of the image.  However,
 if the image uses more than 256 colors, say some of the newer 24 bit stuff,
 G-WINDOWS will return an error message informing you it doesn't not know how
 to display the image.  G-WINDOWS can only handle 256 colors maximum.  Caveat -
 not all implementations of G-WINDOWS can handle 256 colors.  Some of the
 implementations are for 16 colors and it is possible to do a 2-color port
 (monochrome), also.  Of course, these implementations cannot display 256
 color images, either.

 When you open most windows in G-WINDOWS, a 'draw buffer' (the G-WINDOWS term
 for what has been called 'virtual window' here) is also created.  Most of
 the time, it is the same size as the maximum size of the window.  Even if
 you resize the window so it is smaller, the draw buffer remains the same size.
 This permits the user to 'scroll' through the draw buffer to view its
 contents.  It also permits writing to a portion of the window which may
 not be selected for viewing.

 When an application is written for G-WINDOWS, it can take advantage of the
 'auto draw buffer' capability.  I did this when I wrote 'VIEW FAX' for Joel
 Hegberg's ETHAFAX which I showed in Atlanta.  While most faxs are of a speci-
 fied width, they can vary in length.  Rather than attempt to create a worst-
 case draw buffer (very wasteful of memory), I used the 'auto draw buffer'
 capability.  The size of the buffer is determined by the incoming data and is
 independent of the window size.  A side note on this - it is possible to
 scale the image to view the entire message on one screen.  However, some
 information/detail may be lost especially if the scaling ratio is high as
 might be required for some of the lower resolution implementations of
 G-WINDOWS.

 You asked whether G-WINDOWS supports some kind of a 'clipboard standard'.
 I'm not sure what you mean.  If you are referring to clip-art, a conversion
 routine for GIF files does come with G-WINDOWS.  And, I'm working on conver-
 sion routines to convert most of the other popular gfx formats to G-WINDOWS
 format.  Along this line, I've finished a conversion routine to convert HPLJ
 soft fonts to G-WINDOWS format and will do one for TRUE-TYPE soft fonts later.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83579 30-NOV 07:25 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83548)
     From: JEJONES      To: FHOGG

 > Yes. The resized window is uh... a window that you are looking thru to
 > the stuff under it. ummm does that explain it?

I think so, but IMHO, if I understand what you're saying, it's not the
behavior I'd personally like to see.  What I'd like to see is this:

I have a shell running in a window, and at the shell prompt I type

less woof.c

For some reason, while less is in mid-run, I decide to resize the
window.  After I resize the window, if I type space at the less
running in the window, I want less's notion of what another
"screenful" of woof.c is to reflect *the number of lines displayed
in the resized window*.

This takes work; what it really means is that less has to be notified
of the change and potentially change, for example, the value of its
TERMCAP environment variable.  Alas, it probably means that some signal
would have to be dedicated to the purpose and a list of programs
interested in being notified of window size changes be kept somewhere.

Opinions expressed herein are those of their respective authors, and
not necessarily those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83586 30-NOV 12:02 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83538)
     From: CBJ          To: NIMITZ

>We don't aim for the stars, so we end up shooting ourselves in the foot!!
 *
 Well said!!
 =carl


-*-

83615 1-DEC 00:02  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83577)
     From: MREGC        To: EDELMAR

Thanks, Ed.

    Remember, the more information you dispense on GWindows finer attributes
the closer I get to breaching that "cost of GWindows + cost of developer's
package" barrier that currently prevents me (and I'm sure som others)
from committing to the MM/1 port.

...Eric...

-*-

83620 1-DEC 00:27  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83579)
     From: FHOGG        To: JEJONES

Jim,
One of the demos that comes with GWindows (called 'boxes' I think)
does just that. When you resize the window the demo changes to fit.
I guess this means that you could do what you want in a text window.
But as it comes up it just shows you a piece of the window when you
make it smaller. Ahhh another thing to play with. Actually I think
I like your comments. It would be rough reading some things that
are formatted for 80 chars tho, like a dir -e.

Frank

-*-

83638 1-DEC 05:51  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83579)
     From: EDELMAR      To: JEJONES


 James,

 > less woof.c

 > For some reason, while less is in mid-run, I decide to resize the
 > window.  After I resize the window, if I type space at the less
 > running in the window, I want less's notion of what another
 > "screenful" of woof.c is to reflect *the number of lines displayed
 > in the resized window*.

 What you want to do can be done but 'less' (and any other applications
 you want to respond as you describe) would have to be re-written.  'less'
 and most (all?) programs that access 'termcap' or other files to obtain
 size (and other) information, do so only once - when the program is first
 started.

 When a window is resized, a signal is sent (actually an 'event') and the
 new window size is available.  It is possible to write a 'wrapper' for 'less'
 and other apps that would send specific information to the apps when certain
 events occur.  Of course, the apps would have to be able respond to this
 information.  The problem is not one of G-WINDOWS but rather, the apps.
 Apps could be written and/or modified so they can run in either 'native' mode
 or under G-WINDOWS and take advantage of G-WINDOWS capabilities.  I suspect a
 real ambitious programmer could write an application running under native
 mode, G-WINDOWS and K-WINDOWS, at least for text based stuff without
 requiring different versions for each <g>.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83652 1-DEC 20:54  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83573)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MREGC

Perhaps the different platforms won't be on the same computer.  Thats the
advantage of OS9.   And I do not think this is that hard of a goal.  All
it takes is some commitment and brain sweat.


z

-*-

83663 1-DEC 23:59  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83538)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: NIMITZ

I especially liked your comment about "We don't aim for the
stars, so we end up shooting ourselves in the foot!!".  How
true, especially for those whose goal is to emulate the way
MS-DOS does it!  Instead of trying to make our systems
leading edge, many try to just copy DOS applications.

Allen

-*-

83666 2-DEC 00:17  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83638)
     From: KSCALES      To: EDELMAR

Hi, Ed (and James, too) -

 > > For some reason, while less is in mid-run, I decide to resize the
 > > window.  After I resize the window, if I type space at the less
 > > running in the window, I want less's notion of what another
 > > "screenful" of woof.c is to reflect *the number of lines displayed
 > > in the resized window*.
 >
 > What you want to do can be done but 'less' (and any other applications
 > you want to respond as you describe) would have to be re-written.
 > 'less' and most (all?) programs that access 'termcap' or other files to
 > obtain size (and other) information, do so only once - when the program is
 > first started.

Sigh.  Quoting from my messages 15737/8 on the CIS OS-9 forum (July/92),
which were replies to Kevin D's request for input on K-Windows:

 "c) Signals when window changed:  I would like to see codes similar to
     _ss_dcon() and _ss_dcoff() to enable and disable sending of a signal to
     a process when its window has been changed/resized (default, no signal,
     of course).  It would have been really nice (and easy) to have been able
     to put support for these in my "sc" and "ispell" ports."

As far as I know, these haven't been added.  So the K-Windows programmer
must keep checking the current window size to see if it has changed.

 > When a window is resized, a signal is sent (actually an 'event') and the
 > new window size is available.

Using events (G-Windows) is a much tidier approach.  Neat.

It should be pretty simple to make a resizable G-Windows version of 'sc',
so that the spreadsheet changes to reflect the resized window size.
(The original source already understands the Unix SIGWINCH signal.)

 > Of course, the apps would have to be able respond to this information.

Right.  And if there were a simple method of managing it, I am sure more
programmers would build it into their applications.  So, how many more
orders do you need to proceed with the MM/1 G-Windows port?

 ... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83667 2-DEC 00:19  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83560)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: KSCALES

Ken,
A few months ago, I got a phone call from an old
college buddy of mine.  He works for a large industrial
company (Aluminum smelter).  He was really excited to find
out that I was familair with OS9.  Seems they they built a lot of their
own control systems using OS9.  They had recently seen a
demonstration of G-Windows and were quite impressed.  They
were also looking for less expensive hardware to use for
development in the office.  I sent him copies of various
adds from the Underground, etc.  Hopefully, one of our
vendors here hade a sale.  The point is that a lot of these
guys don't know that there are terminal programs, editors,
games (be sure to put a "supervisor" button in it!), graphics
editors, etc. available.  The trick is to determine what they
need and then figure out how to meet the need.  The USER's
group should help with that.  Another thing..don't standardize
on something of no use to the real user base of OS9, the
real-time controls market.

Allen

-*-

83669 2-DEC 00:36  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83528)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: JEJONES

re: 83528

Unfortunately, GWindows is more  like OS/2 or MS-Windows
where the text is cropped when the window is smaller than the text
display.  You have to scroll right/left/up/down to view it.
Desqview/X has "scalable fonts" which re-size to suit the
window---neat but a load on the cpu (otherwise known as slow).
Once DV/X get the fonts re-scaled, things go quick, though.
It might be possible for the programmer to detect the window
size in Gwindows and adjust to one of the  three loaded "Qfonts"
on the fly.  I don't have the developer's kit so I can't
check that out.

Allen

-*-

83676 2-DEC 20:16  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83663)
     From: NIMITZ       To: AJMLFCO (NR)

Allen, my aim it to duplicate DOS file structures, and , in some cases,
programming languages, while retaining features that take advantage of OS9.
And, then, we can attract people who want simultaineously developed superior
features, and that will  allow us to acheive some penetration into the small
business market.

            David

-*-

83677 2-DEC 20:28  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83669)
     From: EDELMAR      To: AJMLFCO (NR)


 Allen,

 In a standard 'shell' window, (the one you see when you start G-WINDOWS,
 use cntl-s or the menu to start new windows) you can have only one of the
 three quick fonts.  The window file manager reads the environment file
 to determine which size font to use.  The window is sized accordingly.

 In a 'custom' window, (one which runs an app written under G-WINDOWS),
 the programmer or, if he allows, the user may select any of the fonts
 in the FONTS directory or any of the quick fonts.  This may be done on
 the fly.  You may have different faces, styles, sizes - whatever is available
 and suits your fancy.  Some of the software we're writing permits all of the
 above plus hierogliphics or handwriting if you chose.  Currently, I'm working
 on a set of fonts which will contain 'clip-art' for inclusion in documents.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83687 2-DEC 23:14  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83429)
     From: THETAURUS    To: NIMITZ

        >>Chris, then if the standards come out WITH the applications
   then we won't have to redevelop everything later.........

        Well that is a good point. I just don't know if we would be
   starting too  early in the game. Maybe starting out with a set of
   standards as a foundation, and then as more software is developed,
   adding to that set as we go along might be the right idea? Is that
   what you are saying? The thing I'm thinking about right now is, at
   this point we can probably think of a few standards that will most
   likely need to be set anyway, so yes, we could take care of those
   right off the bat. While I'm not personally as informed with this
   stuff as those of you using OSK, a few things come to my head. One is
   deciding what directories would be expected to be found on a hard
   disk<SYS,CMDS,DATA, etc> so we could get some of the common
   directories standardized. I still believe programs should be flexible
   enough so that the user can place them and other files in whatever
   directory they please, but the author should also have standard
   default directories he can use to start with, while allowing the user
   to put things wherever he wants with a configuration program. This
   will allow easy startup as well as flexibility. Another idea is to
   have all the machines keep the same Keyboard setup so that all the
   keys, including and especially function keys will equal the same thing
   on all machines<on plain non windows OSK setup. I imagine the Gwindows
   and Kwindows environment can do it their way>.  I don't know if this
   is already taken care of, so I just mentioned it just in case. I think
   it would be a good idea to get a graphics library developed and
   distributed with OSK, similar to GFX2, for Basic. I understand once
   the MM/1 is back in production, BGFX will be getting finished up. That
   will be great, but I think there should probably be something similar
   distributed with OSK, so it will be easier to develop Basic programs
   that will run on all machines<even if the machine itself doesn't come
   with basic>. Then comes the subject of Termcaps,PrintCaps and all that
   other stuff I don't really know anything about. I guess the committee
   would decide what goes into the termcap files, but then again, maybe
   termcaps is fine as is. I only mentioned it because I've heard a lot
   about it, especially it seems, when standards are discussed. Would
   this also be the time to decide on what Windowing systems should be
   considered 'standard'<IF there should even be a 'standard' windowing
   system>? I remember being in conference a short while back with Steve
   Rottinger who was explaining to me about API's and how it is used in
   the Clone and I guess Mac world. I never heard about such a thing
   before that, but it sounds like a killer idea. It would be better to
   just have something like that, which sounds like a Graphics Termcap,
   which will run any program in whatever GUI you wish. Would such a
   thing likely be developed in the not too distant future, or would it
   be a MAJOR programming effort<as it sounds>? I still don't know much
   about it, so if there is more to it<API's> please let me in on it ;-)
        I think after a small base is developed, and as more software
   comes out, people will be able to think of more standards that will
   need to be set. It just sad that we will probably have more software
   standards than software for sometime <grin>
        >Chris<

-*-

83691 2-DEC 23:14  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83504)
     From: THETAURUS    To: MITHELEN

        >>Yes, Eddie will update the Coco version after he gets the
   features working on the MM/1 version.

        I'm looking forward to it. I remember him going over that with me
   here in forum a while back, but didn't know if that was still the
   case.
        >Chris<

-*-

83702 3-DEC 07:27  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83667)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: AJMLFCO (NR)

Allen,

 > The point is that a lot of these
 > guys don't know that there are terminal programs, editors,
 > games (be sure to put a "supervisor" button in it!), graphics
 > editors, etc. available.  The trick is to determine what they
 > need and then figure out how to meet the need.  The USER's
 > group should help with that.  Another thing..don't standardize
 > on something of no use to the real user base of OS9, the
 > real-time controls market.

Good point, and my basic reason for NOT having a standards committee in
the OS-9 UG.  To do so would be silly until the UG can speak for the
OS-9 community at large, not just the little bit that frequents Delphi.

 Mark Griffith
 Director-at-large
 The OS-9 Users Group

-*-

83713 3-DEC 20:58  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83666)
     From: EDELMAR      To: KSCALES


 The magic number is 10.  I have 10 orders - need 10 more.

 Ed

-*-

83717 3-DEC 21:07  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83687)
     From: NIMITZ       To: THETAURUS (NR)

That is pretty much it.   Start out with basic functionality and progress
forward, as MS-DOS is doing in it's pursuit of UNIX....  ;)


-*-

83718 3-DEC 21:10  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83702)
     From: NIMITZ       To: MARKGRIFFITH

Mark, untill you HAVE a standards organization, or make some other SERIOUS
effort
to provide support for those not on Delphi, you'll represent no community at
large.   That is one of my primary reasons to suggest this thing.

      David M. Graham
      BlackHawk Enterprises.

-*-

83725 3-DEC 21:36  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83667)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: AJMLFCO (NR)

Heck Allen, send me an address and name and I7ll send them a free issue or
two of "68 micros". With the new "Industrial User" column, I'm sure he'll
like it (not that there is anything really "industrial" about it yet!).

-*-

83726 3-DEC 21:38  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83713)
     From: HAWKSOFT     To: EDELMAR

Hi Ed!
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------!
!HAWKSoft                                                       check# $dead  !
!244 S. Randall Rd. #172                                                      !
!Elgin, Il. 60123                                                             !
!                                                                             !
!pay to the order of  DELMAR                                         $200.00  !
!TWO HUNDRED and no/sense -------------------------------------------DOLLARS  !
!                                                                             !
!memo G-Windows MM/1                           signed  Christopher R. Hawks   !
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------!


 Here's my check! Sign me up!!

:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> Chris <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-:

-*-

83728 3-DEC 21:46  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83726)
     From: MITHELEN     To: HAWKSOFT (NR)

Hey Chris, that is ALMOST a legal check, you forgot to put the date on it
though...

-*-

83738 4-DEC 04:16  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83676)
     From: EDELMAR      To: NIMITZ (NR)


 David,

 > Allen, my aim it to duplicate DOS file structures, ...

 What is the advantage of the DOS file structure vs the OS9 file structure?
 From experience, I can assure you the OS9 file structure is more robust
 than DOSs.  If you need to read/write DOS disks, we already have PCF provided
 by MW.

 > ... in some cases, programming languages, ...

 Today, most DOS apps are written in one of the flavors of ANSII C or C++.
 We have Ultra-C for OS9 and OS-9000.  It is ANSII compliant and the latest
 version appears pretty solid.  What other programming languages would you add?

 > ..  that will  allow us to acheive some penetration into the small business
 > market.

 I don't see how languages or file structures will help.  We need the gp
 aps.  Otherwise, this is a tough nut to crack - I've tried - unsuccessfully.
 Only sold 2 POS systems using OS9.  However, I've sold many running under
 UNIX - but these were not 'mom-pop' operations, either.

 Before trying for this market, I'd suggest you look at the software already
 being offered.  For example, Real World puts out a package which starts at
 a few hundred dollars.  As more capability is needed, the user can buy
 additional modules.  When he is ready to expand, he can go into networking
 or UNIX - still under Real World.  Incidently, Real World and some of their
 competitors put out some very good packages, provide excellent support and
 can point to the many thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of satisfied users.
 One other point you should consider; most small businesses, when selecting
 their software package, will seek the advice of their accountant.  Your
 ultimate data structure will have to conform to what they use.  For what its
 worth, I've found it easier to compete against IBM, NCR, WANG and the other
 providers of more sophisticated and expensive software/hardware (but not
 necessarily better) than the likes of Real World, etc. who service the small
 business user.

 If we're to compete in the general MSDOS/UNIX market, aside from the obvious
 gp programs, I think we need the capability of importing/exporting files to
 the more popular MSDOS/UNIX programs.  Most have some sort of proprietary
 compression/data structure.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83739 4-DEC 04:17  General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83687)
     From: EDELMAR      To: THETAURUS (NR)


 Chris,

 I don't believe this commuity is ready (mature enough) to establish standards.
 However, we might consider something along the line of 'recommended practices'.

 I won't try to address all the points you made; some are very good but others
 assume (almost) identical hardware.

 > One is deciding what directories would be expected to be found on a hard
 > disk<SYS,CMDS,DATA, etc> so we could get some of the common directories
 > standardized.

 MW distributes Professional OS-9 with a recommended directory structure.
 Most OEM's conform to this.  Tandy didn't in the CoCo.

 > Another idea is to have all the machines keep the same Keyboard setup so
 > that all the keys, including and especially function keys will equal the
 > same thing on all machines <on plain non windows OSK setup. I imagine the
 > Gwindows and Kwindows environment can do it their way>.

 Not really necessary.  We have termcap to take care of this problem.  Besides,
 I don't think you'd be able to convince the terminal mfgs they should conform.
 G-WINDOWS does not define the output of the keyboard.  This is determined
 by the OEM of the machine.

 > I understand once the MM/1 is back in production, BGFX will be getting
 > finished up. That will be great, but I think there should probably be
 > something similar distributed with OSK, so it will be easier to develop
 > Basic programs that will run on all machines<even if the machine itself
 > doesn't come with basic>.

 Whether assembler, C or Basic, gfx are peculiar to the specific hardware.
 As things stand now, there isn't anyway to get a single verions of 'BGFX'
 to work across all the platforms.  However, if the OEM's would get together,
 It just might be possible to come up with something like a GFX termcap as
 you suggest.  However, to keep the speed up, it would probably be better
 to attach it to the kernel; i.e., each hardware implemenation would have
 a P(n) attached to the kernel peculiar to that implementation.  It would
 respond to a standard set of gfx calls.

 > Would this also be the time to decide on what Windowing systems should be
 > considered 'standard'<IF there should even be a 'standard' windowing
 > system>?

 I don't believe the UG would be able to make such a recommendation nor do
 I believe they should.  This is one area the market should be left to make
 the decision.

 I think the 'standards committee' must be very careful in what it does.
 It does not represent the entire OS-9 community.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83236 21-NOV 02:34 General Information
     RE: Scheduled Conferences (Re: Msg 83134)
     From: DGANTZ       To: RANDYKWILSON

Thanks Randy.  I've burned up nearly 15 hours in conference.  Guess I
really should have asked what are the best hours to catch familiar names
from the CoCo/OS9 community such as those from Rainbow and the RiBBS
community such as Charles West?  Or do they vary greatly?  Thanx again.
            Dave

-*-

83237 21-NOV 02:38 General Information
     RE: Scheduled Conferences (Re: Msg 83137)
     From: DGANTZ       To: MITHELEN

Thanks.  Pardon me for being new, but I don't recognize your handle and
possibly have never met up with you before.  I'll try a /whois when done
but just in case, what is your real name?
                             Dave

-*-

83269 22-NOV 00:49 General Information
     RE: Scheduled Conferences (Re: Msg 83237)
     From: MITHELEN     To: DGANTZ

Welp, I was at the last two Atlanta Fests... And all the chicago Fests in
the last, um 6 years... I live in the Chicago Area...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - OS-9 Users Group, Inc.: V.P. of Communications
 SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

-*-

83305 23-NOV 04:31 General Information
     RE: Scheduled Conferences (Re: Msg 83269)
     From: DGANTZ       To: MITHELEN

Oh yeah.  I've seen your name floating around the CoCo (and perhaps the
fidonet) community on occassion.  We'll hope to be in touch more on OS9
and the CoCo more in the future.  Thanx for the reply.
                   Dave

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83238 21-NOV 02:40 General Information
     MO
     From: DGANTZ       To: MARKGRIFFITH

Hi Mark.  Just wondering if you have received my money order for the
modem yet?

-*-

83310 23-NOV 07:06 General Information
     RE: MO (Re: Msg 83238)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: DGANTZ (NR)


 > Hi Mark.  Just wondering if you have received my money order for the
 > modem yet?

Hmmm....(shuffle shuffle) Ah!  Here it is.  Yes, got it and got some modems
in that were on back order.  You'll have it shortly!

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83243 21-NOV 09:58 Programmers Den
     pro
     From: WOAY         To: ALL

 Help!  Some given, some asked for.
     I finally found out why cc_2_5_0 wouldn't use the ramdisk.  In this
 case I may be at fault, as I can't recall if I had re-compiled it, or was
 running the actual downloaded code. However I do have it using the /r0
 device for scratch files once again. I thought I was using the latest
 cstart.r module available, but somehow the one in my /dd/libs dir wasn't
 the one posted here as "cstart.ar".  I got it, re-compiled cc_2_5_0, and it
 works now.  The other (replacement) cstart.r apparently was munging the Y
 register and destroying access to any strings that might have been
 contained in your .r files at link time.  This may also be why I couldn't
 get the newer versions of rz/sz (3_24) to work. Time to check that needed
 too.  So if you are not using that cstart.r, and seem to have string
 problems with your C code, get it (cstart.ar), you'll like it!
     Like others here, I've not been too bashful about grabbing any
 programmers tools made available, however my source is Delphi only, no
 internet connections have been enabled.
     Because of that, and the fact that I hear "ansifront" is now up to
 version .9, I need someone to go retrieve the latest version and post it
 here if perms can be obtained.  The latest posting here is .6.  Thats by
 Vaughn Cato I think, and my thanks to whoever goes after it.
     How 'bout them 'err's? Look out BC, we'll be there friday.
     Cheers, Gene (WOAY)


-*-

83250 21-NOV 15:56 System Modules (6809)
     Printer
     From: CLTUCKER     To: ALL

My /p prints ok not connected to SIG's. Also OK on OS9. When printing the
screen on Delphi it prints periods and letters. ra.t co.....mme etc.
Any suggestions out there? (:-)

-*-

83251 21-NOV 16:20 Games & Graphics
     MVCanvas
     From: MICHAELJN    To: MIKEHAALAND

Can I still call you at the listed number here on Delphi?
I need some assitance on MVCanvas.

-*-

83357 25-NOV 01:28 Games & Graphics
     RE: MVCanvas (Re: Msg 83251)
     From: MIKEHAALAND  To: MICHAELJN

At the moment, I'm not in Las Vegas.  I have a new job in Denver, CO and am
staying with a friend.  Can the problem be resolved in Mail?  (Delphi Mail).

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83252 21-NOV 16:32 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Interleave Factors (Re: Msg 83060)
     From: RICKMAC      To: DSRTFOX

Thanks very much for leaving such a long and detailed message, but I think
my query was as to whether you can run a disk with an interleave factor
of 2 with a system that has some disks and the device driver coded for
an interleave factor of 3 without screwing up the system or the disks.
Yes, I know I can use "dmode" to change the interleave factor, but to do this
every time you put a diiferently formatted disk in is a hassle.

-*-

83262 21-NOV 21:43 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Interleave Factors (Re: Msg 83252)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: RICKMAC

You're going to have to experiment on that one! Use DMODE to change the
interleave on a couple disks, then reboot with your standard system.
I don't think there will be a problem, as the controller should read the disk
REGARDLESS of the interleave, it will just be slower or faster reading. I don't
think the interleave factor of the driver/controller comes into play except
during formatting....
at least that is the case with hard drives.

-*-

83263 21-NOV 21:43 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Interleave Factors (Re: Msg 83252)
     From: WOAY         To: RICKMAC

In a word, yes you can. I do disks here at ilv=5 for bru, then read them
back with the defualt of 3 set. Now I haven't checked specifically with the
drivers I'm using right now (Disto's SCII, native moded) but I've never had
a miss-fire from writing to a disk that had a different formatted in interleave
than what the descriptor contained at the instant. I use dmode on 2 occasions
normally, one to set the size of my ramdisk, and two to set the larger ilv
asionally if I know
a whopper file is coming in, I'll set sas=ff on the maxtor so I don't get the
segment
list in the fd full to overflowing which will then error out rz and sometimes
mung the file map on the drive a bit. Cheers, Gene (WOAY)

-*-

83421 27-NOV 11:31 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Interleave Factors (Re: Msg 83263)
     From: RICKMAC      To: WOAY

 Thanks for the info - I feel confident that nothing will "die" if I
try the different interleave factors.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83254 21-NOV 17:57 General Information
     Club Network
     From: THESCHU      To: ALL

   Good afternoon to all.
   My name is Brian Schubring, ( Delphi name > THESCHU < ).
 I am a member of the ' GlenSide Color Computer Club ' of ILLINOIS.
 I would like to introduce myself as the new 1994 Club President of
 this international club.
   With the turn of the new year I would like to see the expansion
 of the information net of other Clubs here and abroad. One of this
 clubs main objectives is to provide an information and support base
 through our Newsletters , BBS's and of course our members and thier
 input. This of course includes the sharing of newsletters with other
 Clubs throughout the CoCo community.  This is one of my goals for
 this Club and for other Clubs with the same ideas of growth and to
 CREATE a National database of members and/or clubs so someone can
 find a club near them. This would be a database to be shared by all
 clubs that would be interested.

   The Proposition:

   What I would like to see is that anyone who reads this message
 and who is interested in strengthen this network of clubs please
 contact me here on Delphi thru E-MAIL via > THESCHU < or mail any
 information to:
                 Brian schubring    President,  GCCC
                 208 GlenEllyn Rd. #306
                 BloomingDale  IL  60108

 This message my be uploaded to any and all BBS's with my permission
 and encouragement.

   The future of the CoCo community is in the hands of all who use
 and enjoy the CoCo. So lets band together and continue to support
 all who try so hard give us the best future and information
 possible for the CoCo Community.

   Best Regards to all.
                        Brian Schubring  - President GCCC  '94


-*-

83451 28-NOV 11:24 General Information
     RE: Club Network (Re: Msg 83254)
     From: LUCKYONE     To: THESCHU

Hi, Brian.

I forgot to congratulate you on your election at the meeting so let
me do it now. I wish you great success and I look forward to working
with you. Good luck on your net working idea.

Howard,
Secretary of the Glenside Club

   Howard Luckey
   delphi LUCKYONE
   CIS 74746,3207

       ********** By InfoXpress 1.01 of course! **********



-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83259 21-NOV 21:14 General Information
     OS9 Users Group
     From: 2RSMITH      To: ALL

I read in Frank's "world of 68' Micros that a S-9 Users Group has been formed
and (make that OS-9 NOT S-9) I read the constitution which is well organized.

Just wondering what my $25 will do for me if I send to address shown? I would
like to use OS-9 more EXcept some of my downloads (using Supercomm) show I
need to know to adapt them with machine language qwhich I am not copnversant
(conversant ?) with.  I have been disappointed that many programs are SRC
files.I understand from DSRTFOX that I need Tandy's EDTASM editor/assembler etc.

I use Miller's TED program occassionally but hacew no way to change fonts on
my DMP-107 printer (have not hacew), except by setting it up before I
load os-9 and TED.  I have all the patches for Supercomm and it works fine
now on Ymodem batch but still have trouble with Zmodem although I d/l'd
both SZ and RZ and placed in my CMDS file. Disregard my gripes

as I haven't used OS9 for some time now--find it easier to stick with
DTERM on DECB @ 1200 baud as 2400 has a lot of traffic.  Ray

-*-

83271 22-NOV 02:07 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83259)
     From: ISC          To: 2RSMITH

Ray,

About your troubles with rz sz in Supercomm.  Zmodem is a continuously
streaming protocol for downloading or uploading in telecom.  If you were
using it trying to download to a diskette drive, you probably got errors
and CRC problems as you were downloading.  You must use a hard disk or
a ramdisk for good results with Zmodem.  I use a ramdisk and the new
version of rz sz available here when I run Supercomm, and I find that
Zmodem downloads are smooth and fast at 2400 baud.

Bill

-*-

83311 23-NOV 07:06 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83271)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: ISC

Bill,

 > About your troubles with rz sz in Supercomm.  Zmodem is a continuously
 > streaming protocol for downloading or uploading in telecom.

Except when downloading from Delphi.  I only get the first three or four
packets streamed, then it goes into the send and wait mode.  Sheeesh.
Delphi has always been the slowest to download anything from.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83333 24-NOV 02:28 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83311)
     From: MITHELEN     To: MARKGRIFFITH

I've no experiance with pay services other then Delphi, but, isn't the
slowness mostly dow to the fact you are connected through a Packet Network
have a LOT to do with the download slowness... I've logged into Delphi direct
before, and things fly along real nicely. Course, the LD bills can kill
your bank account real fast...

-*-

83335 24-NOV 03:06 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83311)
     From: ISC          To: MARKGRIFFITH

Mark,

I hadn't understood what was going on with Delphi's zmodem downloads until
you pointed out that Delphi was going to the send and wait mode.  The
buffers for downloading on the Delphi system must be very small or slow???

Interesting point.

Bill

-*-

83346 24-NOV 13:22 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83335)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ISC

Delphi DOESN'T go to "send and wait" mode...it just looks that way due
to network delays.

-*-

83411 27-NOV 05:48 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83333)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MITHELEN

David,

 > I've no experiance with pay services other then Delphi, but, isn't the
 > slowness mostly dow to the fact you are connected through a Packet
 > Network have a LOT to do with the download slowness... I've logged into
 > Delphi direct before, and things fly along real nicely.

That may be true, but I can logon to Compuserve from Tymnet and not get
the same problem downloading with their B+ protocol.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83422 27-NOV 12:36 General Information
     RE: OS9 Users Group (Re: Msg 83411)
     From: MITHELEN     To: MARKGRIFFITH

perhaps CIS has faster connection/service to the packet networks... which
might explain why it is a more expensive service. I would imagine that
that Tymenet/Sprintnet offer systems like Delphi/AOL/CIS/GENIE/... different
rates for grades of network connections. Some systems may pay more to get
a higher priority on the packet network, and thus those systems get better
throughput...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 Please, Send Money! My hard drive crashed, and I'm too broke to get a new one.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83260 21-NOV 21:17 Programmers Den
     RE: buzzing noises in OS-9 (Re: Msg 83118)
     From: MODEL299     To: DGANTZ

The startrek I am considering would be a BASIC09 program.  If you are running
a 6309 and have patched your system then that would add some speed.  Although
I do not intend to get strongly into graphics I intend to put several of the
displays on the screen at the same time instaed of calling each one every
time you want it.  I am also going to try to work appropriate sound files
into the program so that when you fire a weapon or lose shields you will hear
it happen.  I still have to work out some required routines.   Mark

-*-

83304 23-NOV 04:28 Programmers Den
     RE: buzzing noises in OS-9 (Re: Msg 83260)
     From: DGANTZ       To: MODEL299

These improvements to the Star Trek game sound great!  More info on the
screen and sound effects.  The only thing left for someone else would be
the graphics.  Cheers from me.  Don't know that I can, but let me know
if I can help.
               Dave

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83261 21-NOV 21:39 General Information
     RE: HARD DRIVE (Re: Msg 83107)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: JOHNREED

John, the Tandy OS-9 Hard Drive Controller was designed to work with the Model
II/IV type hard drives which had a special built in controller, NOT SCSI, but
something Tandy specific. The 1000 and 1200 series were PC and PC/XT clones,
respectively. So your
drive (if made for a 1200) would be a standard MFM type drive.

-*-

83450 28-NOV 09:50 General Information
     RE: HARD DRIVE (Re: Msg 83261)
     From: JOHNREED     To: DSRTFOX

 > John, the Tandy OS-9 Hard Drive Controller was designed to work with the
Model
 > II/IV type hard drives which had a special built in controller, NOT SCSI, but

 > something Tandy specific. The 1000 and 1200 series were PC and PC/XT clones,
 > respectively. So your
 > drive (if made for a 1200) would be a standard MFM type drive.
 >

Yeah, it is a "standard" MFM drive (or it was, it finally died).  I
bought it in the hope that it would be one of those older Tandy
types that would work with the "Tandy Hard Disk Controller" - which
I also bought - it didn't work, of course.  Then I got the B&B
stuff.


           John R. Wainwright

 <<CIS -- 72517,676>> <<DELPHI -- JOHNREED>>

 *********** InfoXpress ************

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83265 21-NOV 22:33 General Information
     RE: Using fsave with a floptical drive (Re: Msg 83124)
     From: LUCKYONE     To: MARKGRIFFITH


 > Yeah, fsave isn't really very good.  Have you been using it before with
 > no problems or is this the first time you did a backup?  You might try
 > using tar.  It is much more reliable and faster too.

This is the first time I've done a backup. I'll check out tar and
your hdbackup. Thanks for your reply.


   Howard Luckey
   delphi LUCKYONE
   CIS 74746,3207

       ********** By InfoXpress 1.01 of course! **********



-*-

83312 23-NOV 07:06 General Information
     RE: Using fsave with a floptical drive (Re: Msg 83265)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: LUCKYONE

Howard,

 > This is the first time I've done a backup. I'll check out tar and
 > your hdbackup. Thanks for your reply.

Tar works the fastest, but it won't cross media.  This means when you
get to the end of a floptical, it will error out and stop.  You'll have
to plan your backups to do certain directories to each floptical so you
won't exceed it's capacity.

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83406 27-NOV 04:21 General Information
     RE: Using fsave with a floptical drive (Re: Msg 83312)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: MARKGRIFFITH

Mark,

 > > This is the first time I've done a backup. I'll check out tar and
 > > your hdbackup. Thanks for your reply.

I just thought I'd reply to this thread since I've just backed up my
hard drive a second time using 'hdbackup' and things went great.  Very
glad you wrote it!  Thanks!



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83416 27-NOV 06:35 General Information
     RE: Using fsave with a floptical drive (Re: Msg 83406)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

 > I just thought I'd reply to this thread since I've just backed up my
 > hard drive a second time using 'hdbackup' and things went great.  Very
 > glad you wrote it!  Thanks!

Thanks!  I just wish I could make it faster.  Oh well.  Maybe someone will
take it from here and improve upon it.

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83270 22-NOV 00:56 Programmers Den
     VEF
     From: EARTHER      To: ALL

     I need to write a simple Basic09 routine to read and display VEF
files.  Does someone know the format of VEF files?  Was there ever an
article about doing this in The Rainbow?  Which issue?  Thanks.

--Shawn Driscoll

-*-

83277 22-NOV 19:43 Programmers Den
     RE: VEF (Re: Msg 83270)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: EARTHER

i posted a file called "revef" which is a basic09 program to reverse a
VEF picture. I included source code. I also extracted a segment from the
manual of multi-vue canvas which describes the VEF format. I don't think
Mike Haaland would mind if i posted that so here goes!!

Vef file information

first two bytes .. header information

Standard      Squashed    Scr type   Screen size      Colors   Size
--------      --------    --------   -----------      ------   ----
0000           8000         8         320 X 200        16      32K
0001           8001         7         640 X 200         4      32K
0003           8003         6         320 X 200         4      16K
0004           8004         5         640 X 200         2      16K

16 bytes for palette information.

Uncompressed - raw data just put it on the screen

compressed

char len  - number of bytes to read and decode to restore 1/2 scan line of
            screen data. 1/2 scan line is 80 bytes on type 7 or 8 screen.
            40 bytes for type 5 or 6. (40/80 are decimal values)

char count- compressed/uncompressed byte count.

if data is compressed:

char data          - if data is uncompressed
char data[count]   - if data is uncompressed

header data found only once in beginning of file.

to decode compressed data, read the first byte, call it len, its the lenght of
the compressed 1/2 scan line, now read 'len' bytes into the array. now we just
decode it. get 1st byte in buffer and check for high bit. it is our 'count'
byte (if high bit set
and its compressed) strip high bit and put the next byte 'count' times.
if the high bit isn't set. get the next 'count' bytes from the buffer and
put them on the screen.
This continues until you use 'len' bytes that are in the buffer. when the
buffer is decoded read then next 'len' byte from the file and do it again.
this will repeat 400 times from the file.




please note: the REVEF program i wrote does not display the VEF picture,
it creates a new file with the picture reversed horizontally. The reason
for this was to make iron-on t-shirts. If you cannot find the program I will
upload it here. But i believe I did upload it here.

Mike

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83280 22-NOV 20:18 General Information
     READing NEW NS
     From: JIMHRUBIK    To: ALL

A while back some folks were asking about how to read chunks of the
forum.  I've had problems with READ NEW NS, especially when /r0 would
overflow (and even a 360K floppy).  I think I have a solution for
SuperComm users who don't have a hard drive (like me).

With SuperComm running under Multi-Vue, open a shell on the GShell screen
(or anywhere else, I guess).  Start an ASCII download file and READ NEW NS.
Watch the counter for the buffer.  With my 128K ramdisk, it takes about
six 'fill-ups' to overfill my ramdisk so after the fifth flush of the
buffer, I send a CTRL-S to Delphi.  This freezes the action, and I then
use SHIFT-DN ARROW, choose ASCII capture, and close the open file.  With
the CLEAR key, jump to the open shell and copy the ramdisk file to a
floppy, delete the file in the ramdisk, and key back to SuperComm.  Use
SHIFT-DN ARROW to start another ASCII capture, and hit CTRL-Q to tell
Delphi to let 'er rip.  You can do this as many times as you need to, and
even split the download across several floppies.  It's not elegant, but
it works.


-*-

83281 22-NOV 21:30 General Information
     Eliminator
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: ALL

Does anyone know if the Eliminator is available anymore?  I'm pretty sure that
Frank Hogg no longer carries them.  Does anyone else have them?
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

83320 23-NOV 20:50 General Information
     RE: Eliminator (Re: Msg 83281)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: WTHOMPSON

as far as i know FHL no longer carries CoCo hardware.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83289 22-NOV 23:58 General Information
     upgrade cpu for mm1
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: ALL

I know I read a couple of pages written by Zack Sessions regarding
his experiences upgrading the microprocessor on the mm1. Could somebody
remind me if it was posted here? If so, where?
 --Thanks,
 ---TedJaeger

-*-

83290 23-NOV 00:47 General Information
     RE: upgrade cpu for mm1 (Re: Msg 83289)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: TEDJAEGER

Yeah, I remember Zack doing a mini review and installation guide. He posted
it to this forum, and it was after the fest. That's all I remember. So, since
this forum seems to do about 1000 posts per month, let's look in the last
1500 or so....

FORUM> dir 81500: from colorsystems and to all
Msg    Date   From         To           Top Subject

81563  26-SEP COLORSYSTEMS ALL          Gen dumb terminals for sale
81639  28-SEP COLORSYSTEMS ALL          Gen 3.5 HD disk for sale
82012   9-OCT COLORSYSTEMS ALL          Gen Review: 340 Upgrade
82013   9-OCT COLORSYSTEMS ALL          Mus General MIDI for UmuseK
83005  14-NOV COLORSYSTEMS ALL          OSK KWindows-MM/1 question
83129  17-NOV COLORSYSTEMS ALL          Gen Repacking MM/1 question
83206  20-NOV COLORSYSTEMS ALL          OSK forwarded message

 Ah, looks like you want #82012. The forum software does have some seriously
powerful seach functions, *if* you can guess the correct syntax. Took me four
tries. :>

   Randy

-*-

83327 23-NOV 22:11 General Information
     RE: upgrade cpu for mm1 (Re: Msg 83290)
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: RANDYKWILSON

Thanks for that info and demonstration. BTW I have learned (with your
help) how to diable flow control and handshaking so that I can at
least use my new modem as a standard 2400 baud unit. I'm making progress
and will try to get the paddleboards. What are those things anyway? Just
something to plug into the IO boards to make the serail ports accessible?
 --TedJaeger

-*-

83330 23-NOV 23:04 General Information
     RE: upgrade cpu for mm1 (Re: Msg 83327)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: TEDJAEGER

Ah. sorry if the "demo" was a little much. I get a bit silly sometimes, like
after 2am. :>
 The paddle boards are  a bit more than an extension cable, though they do that
too. The main function is to convert the TTL level signals to/from the mother
board to RS232 levels. In addition, they offer many options via jumpers. You
can configure ethe port to be DTE or DCE, and forcethe state of various lines.

With Delphi, you can try 9600, just so long as you don't send. By send, I don't
mean typing. I mean file uploads, ascii blasts, etc. The problem is lack of
any handshake. Delphi, *normally*, will not send fast enough to swamp the MM/1,
but the reverse can easily happen.


  Randy

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83293 23-NOV 01:49 General Information
     Antiques
     From: RICHKOTTKE   To: ALL


So how old will a computer have to be before it is considered an antique?

When can I expect to get $10,000 at Christy's Auction House for a vintage 1982
COCO-I?  How about an Altair 8008?  Who decides these thing?

(you laugh but guess how much an Edsel is worth today!)


   -Rich

-*-

83316 23-NOV 20:08 General Information
     RE: Antiques (Re: Msg 83293)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: RICHKOTTKE

I'm not sure Rich, but dig up a Boston phone book at a large library. There
is a computer museum somewhere in the Boston area, though I don't recall a
name or exact location.

-*-

83397 26-NOV 22:58 General Information
     RE: Antiques (Re: Msg 83316)
     From: THETAURUS    To: DSRTFOX

        >> I'm not sure Rick, but dig up a Boston Phone book at a large
   library. There is a computer museum somewhere in the Boston area,
   though I don't recall a name or exact location.

        Anyone looking for info on the Boston Computer Museum, which
   Frank was reffering to, can find in the Delphi Boston regional
   section.  It is in one of the submenus<forget the exact details now>,
   dealing with museums and tourist attractions in the Boston area. I
   have the day off tomorrow<since I'm about 45 minutes away>, and may
   head down there myself, if I'm confident enough I can find it<Grin>.
        >Chris<

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83301 23-NOV 03:53 General Information
     Hi
     From: DGANTZ       To: WOAY

Hi, Gene.  I'll have to be honest in that I haven't a clue as to my thread
that lead you to reply to me.  Appreciate the reply tho.  You'll have to
forgive as I am new to Delphi and still trying to find my way around.  I'm
kinda like a sighted man in a pitch black room.  I know some familiar
things to look for but can't see them (cause there labeled differently :-).
                     Dave

-*-

83326 23-NOV 21:56 General Information
     RE: Hi (Re: Msg 83301)
     From: WOAY         To: DGANTZ (NR)

I guess it because I do a download of all new forum msgs with a "read new ns ft"

entry, and just let it fly by to a disk file (I've got a 124.25 mbyte drive)
and then read it all after I'm offline most of the time. I'm online right
now tho. If you've got the disk space, or a ramdisk, I'd do that. Then
you can cpompose the answers offline and send them the next time you are online
since a one page send is only 15 secs at 2400 baud.  Cheers, Gene

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83306 23-NOV 05:14 General Information
     Keybounce
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ALL

Is there a way under level 2 to eliminate keybounce problems?  There was a
patch to level 1 that did this... is there anything similar for leve 2

Thanks
          -- John

-*-

83317 23-NOV 20:09 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83306)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: JWILKERSON

Has your keyboard PIA been replaced with a standard 6821 or 6822 rather than
the LSCxxxxx chip? The only difference between the custom chip and the 6821/22
is that hte custom has pull-up resistors built in. MIKE
_GUZZI can provide more info... that's where I got it!

-*-

83322 23-NOV 21:02 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83317)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: DSRTFOX

yep, thats the only difference is the pullups. I THINK the values used are
4.7K ohms. that could be the cause of keyboard bounce if you replaced
the PIA. since tandy no longer makes the LSC80001 chips (i think thats the
number)

Mike

-*-

83350 24-NOV 20:45 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83317)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: DSRTFOX

   I believe my CoCo has a 6821 already.  I've remembered seeing that chip on
the
left side of the board.

          -- John

-*-

83398 26-NOV 22:58 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83306)
     From: THETAURUS    To: JWILKERSON

        What is a 'keybounce problem'? This is the first time I've
   noticed that term :-)
        >Chris<

-*-

83400 27-NOV 00:09 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83398)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: THETAURUS

    It is when uoi hit a key, and TWO chars. appear onscreen.  Hit, say, an
"a", and "aa" shows up.
     Something to do with the key repeat speed or something.   Using ths system
settings in Multivue will correct this by dropping the key repeat speed, but,
unfortunately, I've been unable to save these settings to my boot.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

83402 27-NOV 01:05 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83400)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: JWILKERSON

not quite!<grin> it is the contacts of the switch sometimes bouncing <eg
making contact twice when being hit once> the cure is to shortening the
time the switch connects,that deletes the second connect...called debouncing!
saving the control file should do it,it cannot be saved in the boot.....
look at the envelope file......in Sys....Dennis

-*-

83424 27-NOV 13:02 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83402)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: COCOKIWI

    Oh, I have the env file saved.  Sooo, if I fire up MV first, I have no pro-
blems at all.  BUT, I do not want to goto all this trouble all the time.  The
problem is not that serious.  If there was a way to increase the time between
key repeats, savable to boot, then my problem would go away permanently.

          -- John

-*-

83433 27-NOV 19:55 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83424)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: JWILKERSON

just put the line "control e" (or is it control -e) in your startup file
that will make control (the MV "control" module) read the env.file and
there are go...it seems to me you could patch cc3io with new values for
key repeat..I will try and find the offsets..

till then, use control e...

                                                  -* Mike

of cource, control has to be in /dd/cmds

-*-

83446 28-NOV 06:19 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83433)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ILLUSIONIST

   OK, cool deal, I'll edit startup and see what it does.

Thanks.

          -- John

-*-

83454 28-NOV 13:13 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83306)
     From: STEWARD      To: JWILKERSON

  There is a patch to cc3io for keybounce, but I can't find my book from Dale
Puckett, I think it was called OS9 level 2, windowing system
or something like that.  The patch is in there.


-*-

83462 28-NOV 13:52 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83424)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: JWILKERSON

the NitrOS-9 CC3Go update for the latest version allows you set the
keyboard repeat delay/speed as well a few other parameters.  Yet another
reson to get Nitro!  I don't know how I got along without it!
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

83475 28-NOV 19:37 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83306)
     From: STEWARD      To: JWILKERSON

  I found the patch for ya.  It's
l cc3io
c 7e 1e 3e
c 86 03 06
v

   This is a modpatch script.

  I think the first doubles the amount of time before it will repeat, and the
second increases the delay between chars.


-*-

83524 29-NOV 04:54 General Information
     RE: Keybounce (Re: Msg 83475)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: STEWARD

    I did the patch.  didn't seem to do much.  Still, I need to see if the
problem crops up again.  Oh wait... I think I see some dealy.  so far
so good :)

Thanks

          -- John

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83318 23-NOV 20:18 General Information
     Under $1000 OSK System?
     From: DSRTFOX      To: ALL

How many people would be interested in a COMPLETE OSK system for under $1000...
probably around $900-$950 assembled? This wouldn't be a speed demon, but a
basic, entry level system. I'm thinking about assembling a few, and making
a component kit available for some savings over a fully assembled system. The
systems would carry at least a 30 day warranty. They would have monitor (CGA
or mono, most likely), keyboard, case/ps, 20-30mb hard drive (probably MFM),
10MHz 68000, 1MB RAM, and at least one 360 or 720 floppy, and OSK also.
The system would be good for those wanting to "test the waters" before buying
a more capable, faster, and expensive system, and those on a tight budget.
These sytems would also be easily upgradeable to VGA, faster CPU, etc.
I'm thinking of introducing this beginner's box in mid February. Would there
be any takers? I'll be running an assembly article in "the world of 68' micros".

Assembly will be easy, with no soldering required. If there isn't enough
interest in assembled units, I will still be interested in offering the
component kits for the magazine articles, which will include assembly AND
setting up OSK. If interested, please reply to ME in this thread!!

-*-

83323 23-NOV 21:03 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83318)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: DSRTFOX

The problem: what about compatability with stuff being written for the
MM/1 and other 68K machines. Thats a consideration


-*-

83353 24-NOV 21:47 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83318)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX


 >How many people would be interested in a COMPLETE OSK system for under
 >$1000...

Frank,

Systems like this already exist if you consider the following. That the user
make use of his existing equipment such as his CoCo to use as a terminal. Two
systems are available that cost under $1000. The KiX\20 at under $700 would be
operational using the CoCo as a terminal or even buying a used terminal such
as I've seen for $50 or less. Hard drives are available for $120 and floppies
at $40. The KiX\20 can use 256K SIMS which are almost free ($7-10) Put all this
in a $50 case and you have it. The other advantage is that the user could add
the 32 bit MGA and GWindows at some future time. We've even kicked around the
thought of doing a VSC based video board so that it 'could' run K-Windows.
Don't know if there is demand for that tho.

In addition there is the CDX68X20 which sells for about $600 and OSK for
another 300. I don't think that includes BASIC like the KiX\20 but it is only
a few hundred more than the KiX. PT has the PT68K4 boards (I don't have the
price)

The point is that even at these low prices it is still more than many can
afford to come up with... at one time. What we need is a way for these guys
to get into OSK a few hundred at a time...

There IS a way to do this. Actually we're kicking around a way to get into
OSK for about $100... Anyone interested?

Frank Hogg - FHL


-*-

83356 25-NOV 00:59 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83353)
     From: ISC          To: FHOGG

Frank,

Why don't you make up a list of configuration choices like the PC boys do and
either post it here or send it to me email.  I am interested in upgrading,
but I am totally confused about which way to go.  My problem is, I would like
to keep using OS-9.

Bill

-*-

83362 25-NOV 04:12 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83318)
     From: EDELMAR      To: DSRTFOX

 Frank,

 The SYSTEM IV is (and has been) available at under $1000 from DELMAR.  It
 is a fully assembled and tested system shipped ready to use.  It uses a 68000
 running at 16 MHz, includes OSK V2.4, Microwawre manuals, other documen-
 tation and has a one year warranty.  It's American made.  For the do-it-
 yourselfer, bare and assembled boards are available.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83365 25-NOV 08:52 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83353)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: FHOGG

OSK fer a hundred bucks eh?? Now yer talkin! Happy Thansgiving Frank <Phil>

-*-

83377 25-NOV 20:31 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83353)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: FHOGG

Get into OSK for under $100 ??? what kind of idea? a bridge board for
a CoCo (like the rocket was supposed to be) or a small computer?

Mike

-*-

83390 26-NOV 21:00 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83377)
     From: FHOGG        To: MIKE_GUZZI


 > Get into OSK for under $100 ??? what kind of idea? a bridge board for
 > a CoCo (like the rocket was supposed to be) or a small computer?

Mike,

Thought that might get a responce. The main, or one of the main problems
in getting a really low cost OSK system is the cost of OSK itself. We
include it in the price for the KiX's but when you see it seperate it is
usually $300 or so. The trick then is to find a 68000 based something that
has OSK as part of it and then make a board to turn it into a full blown
68K computer. Just such a device exists and it doesn't cost much. As a
matter of fact most people could justify its cost as a family purchase
rather than a computer for themselves. Of course I'm talking about a CD-I
player. They have a 15Mhz 68070 and TWO VSC chips, a Meg of RAM and a CD
player plus more. Best thing is you can find them now for $399 and that
price may go down even further. Now all you need is a plug in cartridge
that has a floppy controller on it and you have a 68K computer. The floppy
controller could be built for less than my magical $100. It is not much
more involved than a controller for a CoCo.


Pause while the naysayers get up to speed...

Of course it's not quite that simple. While OSK or (CD-RTOS) is in ROM
there is still software work that would have to be done to make it plug
and play. It is trivial compared to some of the stuff you CoCo guys have
done over the years so I'm sure the talent exists. Who then is going to
do this work? Not me or anyone at Hazelwood... BUT...

I've talked to Mike Smith about this and he will consider making a
development plug in board for a CD-I player that would have floppy, SCSI,
a serial port (for a terminal) and a monitor ROM derived from the KiX ROM.
This would allow tinkering with the CD-I player from a terminal connected
to the serial port. Like the KiX the ROM would have code to boot from
floppy or SCSI hard disk once 'someone' made something to 'boot'. The
cost of this 'dev' board would depend on what you guys end up wanting on
it and how many are ordered. As a ballpark expect a price under $200 if
20 are ordered. Once a working system is developed we would design and
build the production board with whatever features were needed and offer
it for sale. Who or what group did the software would have to decide what
they wanted (if anything) for their efforts.

Once you can offer a 68K system for less than $500 you would have a better
chance to attract new users to our market and that would help everyone.

Why even some diehard CoCo users mught make the jump.

Pause again while the naysayers catch there breath...

The only thing we (Hazelwood and FHL) want from this is the production
and sale of the plug in boards for CD-I once software is working.

Let the discussion begin.

Frank Hogg -- FHL

-*-

83391 26-NOV 21:00 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83365)
     From: FHOGG        To: PHILSCHERER

Please see message #83390

-*-

83394 26-NOV 21:02 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83356)
     From: FHOGG        To: ISC

Bill,

That's a good idea. I'll put something together and email it to you. In the
meantime you might want to check out message #83390

Frank

-*-

83399 26-NOV 22:58 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83362)
     From: THETAURUS    To: EDELMAR

        >>The System IV is (and has been) available at under $1000 from
   DELMAR.

        Frank, how much is the System V going for? I never did hear how
   much that was going for. I think the current low end systems, like the
   MM/1 and your System IV<at the time, your system would be a better
   argument since it's available. Hopefully the MM/1 will be the same
   sometime soon> are pretty inexpensive. I guess it's not a bad idea for
   some people who like to build systems up themselves, like most Coco
   users do, but for some reason, I don't see a reason to start at
   something like a $100 system and keep on pouring money to build it,
   when I can just save up a thousand bucks or a little more to get a
   fairly complete system with the OS and Programming languages.
        Also, as new,faster machines are coming into the OSk market<like
   the System V>, I think it is important to keep those inexpensive low
   end systems on the market, since a good majority of the home users are
   Coco users, and many won't be willing to spend more than $1000 or
   $1500 at most for a new OS9 system. That is, at least untill more
   software is produced, and the availability of good solid,low cost,
   developement machines can only help the community. When the TC-70 was
   taken off the market I thought that was a mistake, but as long as one
   inexpensive 68000 machine is on the market, we should be in good
   shape.

        Also, this goes out to anyone who might know. Will there be a
   review in any of the magazines on any of the newer OSK machines, such
   as the System V,Kix-20,and Kix-30? I know the accelerator board for
   the MM/1 will be in Metamorphasis, how about the others?
        See Ya
        >Chris<

-*-

83401 27-NOV 00:17 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83390)
     From: WA2EGP       To: FHOGG

If you can hit a Rat Shack that still has one, their old Memorex CDI
machine goes/went for $199.95.  Might even be lower (if there is any left).

-*-

83403 27-NOV 01:30 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83401)
     From: EMTWO        To: FHOGG

 Frank, I have a CD-i machine. I think your idea is great. One thing you
might want to add to your initial design, that being a addition card
edge, so that the full motion video people arn't stuck plugging and
unplugging the silly things. I haven't got one of those yet, but I might
in the future.

-*-

83410 27-NOV 05:11 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83399)
     From: EDELMAR      To: THETAURUS


 Chris,

 > Frank, how much is the System V going for? I never did hear how
 > much that was going for.

 Please - it's Ed, not Frank :-).

 The base price of a SYSTEM V is $1995.  This includes a 68020 running at
 25 MHz, 4 megs of RAM, Professional OS-9 Version 2.4, SYSTEM V documentation,
 schematics, etc.  A 33 MHz option is available.  It is shipped fully tested,
 ready to run by the customer and has a 1 year warranty.

 > I guess it's not a bad idea for some people who like to build systems up
 > themselves, like most Coco users do, but for some reason, I don't see a
 > reason to start at something like a $100 system and keep on pouring money
 > to build it, when I can just save up a thousand bucks or a little more to
 > get a fairly complete system with the OS and Programming languages.

 For those who like to 'roll their own', Peripheral Technology has some
 refurbished K2 and K4 boards available at some very attractive prices.
 (K2 = 68000 at 8, 10 or 12 MHz with up to 1 Meg of RAM, K4 = 68000 at 16
 MHz with up to 4 Meg of RAM.)  They can be contacted at 404-973-2156.

 > ... but as long as one inexpensive 68000 machine is on the market, we
 > should be in good shape.

 For the foreseeable future, the SYSTEM IV will remain in our product line.
 It is still selling quite well.

 > Also, this goes out to anyone who might know. Will there be a review in
 > any of the magazines on any of the newer OSK machines, such as the System V,
 > Kix-20,and Kix-30? I know the accelerator board for the MM/1 will be in
 > Metamorphasis, how about the others?

 I've had at least one discussion with Mark Griffith about doing a review
 of the SYSTEM V.  Also, Mark has offered to write a suite of test programs
 which would provide a 'figure of merit' of the various machines.  I'm not
 adverse to such independent testing - remember, the SYSTEM IV was the first
 machine reviewed by RAINBOW when they were considering covering OSK.  When
 Mark is ready, I'll certainly make a SYSTEM V available to him.  I showed
 the SYSTEM V in Chicago last May and Atlanta this past October.  Many people
 'played' with it and these showings did result in orders.  It was also shown
 in San Diego in September - there is a report of this in the database here
 by Stephen Carville (PAGAN).

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

83420 27-NOV 11:14 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83353)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: FHOGG

OSK for around $100?  Tell me more!!!!
 Thanks,
 Wayne


-*-

83436 27-NOV 21:32 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83401)
     From: FHOGG        To: WA2EGP

 > If you can hit a Rat Shack that still has one, their old Memorex CDI
 > machine goes/went for $199.95.  Might even be lower (if there is any left).

NOW you tell us! <grin> Had I known I would have gotten all I could. There was
only
one store in my area that carried them and when I called last year it was
special order. That would be a heck of a deal tho.

Frank

PS I 'spect RS might get calls form stores all over the country next week
telling mang. about the sudden renewed interest. <g>


-*-

83437 27-NOV 21:36 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83403)
     From: FHOGG        To: EMTWO

 >  Frank, I have a CD-i machine. I think your idea is great. One thing you
 > might want to add to your initial design, that being a addition card
 > edge, so that the full motion video people arn't stuck plugging and
 > unplugging the silly things. I haven't got one of those yet, but I might
 > in the future.

Yep that would be something for the production unit. Would also allow plugging
'other' things in. Look what was 'plugged' into the CoCo over the years. Lots of

opportunities here.

Frank

PS What about a 'review' of your experence with your CDI player. Folks who need
to convince their better halfs might could use the info. <G>

-*-

83438 27-NOV 21:36 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83420)
     From: FHOGG        To: WTHOMPSON

Wayne,

Please see my message 83390

Frank

-*-

83461 28-NOV 13:47 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83399)
     From: FHOGG        To: THETAURUS



 > When the TC-70 was taken off the market I thought that was a mistake
 > etc etc

Chris,

Hazelwood and FHL are both market driven. The TC70 was discountinued
because nobody wanted to buy it.

Just because a machine has a 68000/70 does not make it a bargain. The
TC70 SBC sold for $1100 with OSK. The KiX\20 with an MGA board and the
same OSK sells for... $1100+-.

The full breakdown is this.

 KiX\20     699.95 (includes 25Mhz '02, ProOSK with C and BASIC)
 Case Kit   249.95 (includes case/PS/floppy/cable kit)
 4 Meg SIMM 299.95 (May change due to the market)
 Total     1249.85

Add about 20 minutes of your time to assemble it and you have a full
working 32 bit OSK system with a 25Mhz 68020, Professional OS9 with C
AND >BASIC< and full Microware manuals, full schematics etc. The
lowest cost way to get into OSK at this time.

This system also has a full 32 bit expansion bus for the 32 bit MGA
video card which has been tested fastest of all OSK based GWindows
systems. The 32 bit MGA card WITH GWindows costs $599.95. It compares
very well to OS9000 based systems with 'local bus' video boards that
cost in the $300 area and GWindows for OS9000 that costs $275. The
MGA also has a keyboard port and serial mouse port which 'local bus'
video boards do not thus making the MGA very competive.

SCSI hard drives are now available for $120 and up meaning that you
can get a full 25Mhz 32 bit GWindows system for under $1970.

The TC70 had a 16 bit bus (which cost extra) and its video was limited
to what the VSC could produce. No one in their right mind would buy a
TC70 when for just about the same money you could get the KiX\20.

Frank Hogg - FHL

PS Now that we've finished the house I'll have more time to play...
I mean work and I'll be around here more often...

Now WHO groaned!

-*-

83472 28-NOV 18:05 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83437)
     From: EMTWO        To: FHOGG

 Frank, While the machine is mine, my niece and nephew also use it. So,
we have a good sampleing of ALL available CD-i titles sitting in my living
room.
 My first comment is that Tandy had to be insane to drop CD-i in favor of
VIS. The only thing I can think of is that they KNEW they would never sell
a VIS unit, if a CD-i unit was within 1000 feet<g>. The VIS systems are
S-L-O-W! While the graphics available on the stock CD-i unit are not
full motion, they at least appear on the screen in less than a second.
 We have both Story Machine disks, both 'Tell me WHY' disks, Zelda, Link,
Battleship, Text Tiles, Ceasars Casino, Smithonian, Laser Lords, Escape
from Cyber city, plus several others.
 In all cases the interface is easy to use, reasonably intuative, and
SMOOTH. There are some wargaming titles comming out in the next several
months - a sub simulator, axis & allies, The Battle of Bull Run...
 All I can say is that I expect to get alot more use out of this system,
even it it never developes a harddrive or keyboard.

-*-

83477 28-NOV 19:41 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83356)
     From: FHOGG        To: ISC

 > Why don't you make up a list of configuration choices like the PC boys
 > do and either post it here or send it to me email.  I am interested in
 > upgrading, but I am totally confused about which way to go.  My problem
 > is, I would lik to keep using OS-9.

Bill,

Good idea so here goes.

First some general comments. All current systems use some common parts.
PC cases, power supplies, keyboards, mice, floppy and hard drives.
These are more or less commodities that anyone can get very easily. We
and Hazelwood decided to concentrate on the guts of the systems rather
than complete systems. To do this we had to make the systems very very
easy to build. In most cases the assembly time is 20 minutes. It
consists of installing the motherboard and drives in the case and
connecting the cables. This saves you loads of money as I'm sure you
can tell by comparing prices.

You can buy the guts of any of the currently available systems from
their manufactures. Peripheral Technology has the PT68K, Computer
Design Services has the CDX68X20 and FHL/Hazelwood has the KiX
series, the KiX\20 and KiX\30.


RAM: A basic OSK starting system would need at least 1 Meg of RAM
with 2 or 4 better. The KiX systems can use 4 256K SIMMs (for
1 Meg) or 4 of any other size. The KiX's are 32 bits which is why
you need 4. 9 Bit SIMMs also work although the 9th bit is ignored.
256K SIMMs can often be found as 'pulls' or ones that were taken
out of a computer to upgrade it. I've seen 256K SIMMs pulls for $3.

HARD DRIVE: A 40 meg SCSI hard drive would also suffice. If you
already had a SCSI hard drive on your coco you could plug that
into your KiX without  having to reformat it. I've seen 40 Meg
Quantums for $119.

FLOPPY DRIVE: For a floppy get a 3.5" 720K/1.4Meg to be current.
Our system supports 5" drives of all types but we are trying to
standardize on 3.5" for the future. $50 or so should get you one.

CASE: All of the above systems are designed to fit into standard
PC cases. The KiX's support from 4 (KiX\20) to 8 (KiX\30) plug
in cards that are full height. This means that the low profile
PC cases would not work if you wanted to make use of any of the
expansion slots. Plenty of choices from $50 on up. Make sure
the power supply is included at this price.

CABLES: The KiX systems use ribbon cable assembles exclusively.
These are easy to make with components that are common. We also
offer a cable kit of all needed internal cables for those who
want to use their own case. $89 for the KiX\30 and $99 for the
KiX\20. (The KiX\20 has 2 more serial ports than the KiX\30 4
vs 2). External cables are all standard PC serial and parallel
types which are also easy to get.

We offer a kit that has a mini tower case, floppy drive
720K/1.4Meg and all cables for $249.95.

Basically once you've decided on whose 'guts' you want all you
need is the above.

GUTS: I don't have all the details of systems other than my own
so I'll concentrate on the KiX's. I think the KiX\20 is the best
buy of all the systems available. It is a 25 Mhz 68020 with 4
serial, 1 parallel port, Battery backed clock, 8K battery backed
Static RAM, SCSI interface, floppy controller, 4 expansion slots
(One of then is 32 bit) and full documentation including
schematics. Plus it will autoboot from floppy or hard drive.
It  also allows 1,2,4,8 or 16 Meg of SIMMs. What really makes
the KiX\20 the best deal is that it comes with Professional
OS9/68000 and C. Plus we also include BASIC which is extra cost
on other systems (usually $200) The KiX\20 sells for $699.95
with all this and at that price it is $200 LESS than our closest
competitor who doesn't include BASIC!

The KiX\30's have just gone thru a series of price reductions.
The 33Mhz KiX\30 is now $1799.95 which is $700 less than its
previous price of $2499.95. The 16Mhz KiX\30 is only $200 less
and for that reason everybody is buying the 33Mhz version. In
addition to what the KiX\20 has the KiX\30 has a 68030, full
DMA, FPU support, 8 slots with 4 being 32 bit. It is more on
the lines of a hi-end server while the KiX\20 is more for the
individual user.

Either of these systems can be used as 'console' systems. That
means you connect a terminal (coco can be used as a terminal)
to one of the serial ports and use it much as you are using
Delphi now. For a full featured GUI we have the MGA card for
either system.

VIDEO: Both KiXs can use the 32 bit MGA video card. We sell this
with GWindows for $599.95. The KiX\30 can use 4 of these where
the KiX\20 can only use 1. For the KiX\30 only the first
one has to have GWindows so additional MGA cards would only
cost $400 each. The MGA is a VGA like card and we
recommend a .28 or smaller dot pitch monitor. All monitors
tested so far work except those from Tandy. Each MGA has a
serial mouse connector and a PS2 style AT keyboard connector.
The 32 bit MGA card has 8 bit (256) color with palette and is
the fastest GWindows platform for 68K.

I hope that this answered your questions. Please let me know
if you need clarification on any of this information.

Frank Hogg -- FHL

-*-

83479 28-NOV 19:57 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83472)
     From: FHOGG        To: EMTWO

Thanks very much for that info. I'm surprised you think Tandy made a mistake.
Would be the first time for them wouldn't it? <BIG grin>

Frank

-*-

83487 28-NOV 21:20 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83323)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: MIKE_GUZZI

The machine will be compatible with ANY "terminal" type software. To run MM/1
specific software would require a copy of K-Windows. A port to the PT68K boards
is in the works, should be available some time next year. G-Windows should run
as long as the monitor is upgraded later.

-*-

83488 28-NOV 21:22 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83353)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Heck Frank, I'm even interested in the $100 deal! Type up a notice I can print
in the magazine and I'll see if I can get you some more interest..

-*-

83490 28-NOV 21:28 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83399)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: THETAURUS

A review for the MM/1 accelerator board will be in the 15 DEC issue of 68'
micros as well. I'm looking for someone with a KiX system to write a review.
Know anyone? Will be doing the same for the MM/1 and System IV/V also.

-*-

83492 28-NOV 21:35 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83461)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Frank, the system I was talking about would be under $1000 COMPLETE with case
and all. Your Kix 20 is over $1200 and you still need a monitor, keyboard, and
card for the two. I don't care much for a terminal system, but you could get it
for around the $100
0 if you use a terminal. I mentioned under $1000 because I KNOW for SURE I can
get the components under that price. I'm looking more at a couople hundered
under $1000, around $8000, and NOT a terminal system, but freestanding computer
even at that price. W
on't have the power of a KiX, just a development/beginner box. DARN!!! That
"$8000" should be "$800" !!!!!

-*-

83493 28-NOV 21:39 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83362)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EDELMAR

Ed, I've never seen a complete pre listing of your items... how about sending
me one?

-*-

83494 28-NOV 21:43 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83436)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Frank, the Memorex machines sold by Rat Shack wouldn't do you any good. They
ARE NOT "CD-I" machines. They use MS-Windows disks, and a special version of
Windows that works through a pointer only. They use a 386 (SX?) processor.

-*-

83495 28-NOV 21:47 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83494)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: DSRTFOX

uh, rat shack DID sell a CD-I machine, I know, because I saw a CD-I demo
for it, and it wasnt VIS, I saw the VIS demo too, they dropped CD-I in
favor of VIS..another mistake, possibly only taking 2nd place to dropping
the coco, or how about pushing the coco as a game machine rather than
souping it up and pushing it as  a multi-user OS-9 box???

definition of a mistake in my websters dictionary?

Any move made by Tandy.

-*-

83496 28-NOV 21:52 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83495)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: ILLUSIONIST

Okay, I only know about the VIS idiot-box. I guess the marketing types at RS
saw more profit potential in the cheaper VIS box, especially since only minor
mods had to be made to existing PC CD-ROM software titles. Think about it a
minute. Your software is
practically developed already, and the technology is existing and cheap. A few
minor mods to your existing PC motherboards, a new case, a new BIOS, and you
have a "CD-I" machine! In the true sense of the term, I guess it WAS a "CD-I"
machine (is?), but not
 what we think of... us OS-9 aware types anyway!
From a pure marketing standpoint, it sounds great! Now, if they had used a
486SX in it, it just MIGHT have had a better chance!

-*-

83498 28-NOV 21:57 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83496)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: DSRTFOX

true, but OS-9's multitasking makes multimedia stuff look SO much better..
than some crumy version of windows..even if I never heard of OS-9, I would
rather pay the xtra $$ for a real CD-I machine that looks good, rather than
a VIS.. although the titles wouldnt be as easy to port, although they could
be ported from Sega CD (since both use 680x0, wouldnt be as easy though)

-*-

83500 28-NOV 22:08 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83436)
     From: WA2EGP       To: FHOGG

Well, I did leave a message on the forum when I got it.  Never got any
comments or replies.  I also got a couple of CDI disks too.  Played with the
machine.  Not bad.  Better check them out.  There might be a few still
stuck in an RS in the boonies somewhere.  Happy hunting!

-*-

83502 28-NOV 22:17 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83494)
     From: WA2EGP       To: DSRTFOX

Are you sure you are not mixing up the VIS machines with the Memorex machine?
My disks say Philips Interactive Media of America on the front and has a
welcome to the world of CDI flyer on the inside.  Ah....they even work in the
machine (grin).

-*-

83513 29-NOV 00:17 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83494)
     From: JOHNBAER     To: DSRTFOX


 > Frank, the Memorex machines sold by Rat Shack wouldn't do you any good.
 > They ARE NOT "CD-I" machines. They use MS-Windows disks, and a special
 > version of Windows that works through a pointer only. They use a 386 (SX?)
 > processor.

 Frank.. the Memorex machines that the shack sold ARE CD-i machines.
 I played with one BEFORE the Shack store had a VIS system to sell.

 On the front of the machine, below the Memorex name in real tiny letters
 was `A Philips Product'...

 Want to have some fun,.. get one of the shack people to place a mid to
 large size speaker on each side of the VIS machine so you can `hear'
 the nice stereo sound.  Turn up the vol. just a little.. now TRY to use
 the remote (he he).  It won't work at all reliable.  This is due to
 LACK of shielding in the VIS machine!!!  The tiny reed switches get
 `stuck' when in a magnetic field.

 Also, I found out that the VIS is using a `286' in it.  That and
 windows make it a `bargain' <g>.

 A side note:  I just found out that `Block Buster Video' is tied in with
 Philips for the `move' end.  The Sears store in my area also had 15
 movie titles available NOW.  Will have the `full motion' card mid
 December I'm told.

 Can't wait for that to hit the store <g>.

-
   John Baer
   johnbaer@delphi.com
   jbaer@pacs.pha.pa.us

   *** InfoXpress 1.01.00 ***

-*-

83516 29-NOV 00:34 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83513)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: JOHNBAER

As I remember the story, Tandy had a warehouse full of 286 machines they
couldn't du... uh sell to the public. Rumor hs it that someone in Tandy Tower
was playing with one of those new CD-i machines that they were selling, and
got this idea on how to get rid of that crowded warehouse. hence the dumping
of the Memorex boxes and the surprise arrival of VIS. :>

  Randy

-*-

83519 29-NOV 01:47 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83390)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: FHOGG

Frank, could you tell us what software is already in a user CD-i box (not a
developers system) such that we might get an idea of how much would need
written. Is it just a case of adding "dir" and "procs" and such, or is it
(as I fear) a case of adding RBF, SCF, drivers, descriptors, usable shell,
and *all* other utilities?
 If what you plan is really feasible, I'd probably go out and pick up a
CD-i just to tinker with. Guess I'll also have to get a television to hook
it to, too.
 But, until it is proven feasible, I think it best not to get the CoCo
community's hopes up to high. WE don't need another Rocket letdown right now.

  Randy

-*-

83520 29-NOV 02:00 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83492)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: DSRTFOX

OK!, Let's check out MY math...
Color Monitor $300
Keyboard      $ 50
Mouse         $ 20
PC case       $ 50
PC pwr supply $ 70
floppy        $ 60
hard drive    $150


Total $700, leaving $300 for OSK, and memory and motherboard
and manuals....or does one assume one already has most of
the hardware?

Allen

-*-

83522 29-NOV 04:50 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83496)
     From: PAGAN        To: DSRTFOX

 >Now, if they had used a 486SX in it,

 I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I recall reading (Dr.
 Dobb's maybe?) that the new 'minimum' requirement for multi media _is_ a
 486SX at 25Mhz.  Most existing CD-ROM titles require at least a '286 and
 most of the new ones require a 386SX-16.

 Stephen (PAGAN)

-*-

83523 29-NOV 04:53 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83390)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: FHOGG


     "Now all you need is a plug in cartridge that has a floppy
      controller on it and you have a 68K computer."

Wouldn't you also need a keyboard port or at least an RS-232 port to
attach a terminal to? I imagine running OSK apps with the CD-I
controller could get a bit difficult! <grin>

     "Once you can offer a 68K system for less than $500 you would
      have a better chance to attract new users to our market and
      that would help everyone."

If you are counting on the person already having a terminal (or another
computer), a floppy drive, and a CD-I machine, isn't that restricting
the market just a bit?

After all, even at $100 for an interface, no cost for a terminal
(admittedly, *most* people interested in the product would likely have
another computer), add $399 for a CD-I player and a bit more for a
floppy drive, and you are a bit over $500.

Still, I think the idea has merit.

Of course, so would a good, relatively inexpensive OSK port for the
Amiga 1200 (possibly with new ROMs for booting OSK).


-*-

83529 29-NOV 06:08 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83494)
     From: JEJONES      To: DSRTFOX

 > Frank, the Memorex machines sold by Rat Shack wouldn't do you any good.
 > They ARE NOT "CD-I" machines.

VIS is indeed not CD-I, but back when Tandy did sell CD-I machines, those
CD-I players had the Memorex label.

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not necessarily
those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83532 29-NOV 19:09 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83519)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

I am pretty sure that RBF and SCF are in ROM, drivers for the screen should
be there, and drivers for the CD drive have to be there too, I am faily sure
that SCF is on memory, I read of OS-9 Midi, it the Midi driver is used under
SCF, and OS-9 Midi is usable under CD-RTOS, the screen driver is probably
under SCF too, but I bet a special driver would be needed because I doubt
Philips has an ASCII char. set in the hardware. Maybe they do, I dunno.
Obviously, drivers for the SCSI drives and floppies would be needed, as well
as for the serial port. I would think that Microware would have had RBF
included with CD-RTOS, I mean, a CD would be a random access device...
I would like to see how all that is done, I mean, I wonder if this system
would allow, say a "dir /cd" with of course "/cd" being the cd-rom drive
Microware DOES offer a util. set for use with a cd-i machine that has a
floppy drive (apparently high-end systems do) as far as I know, this util set
is exactly that, shell and all the cmds. so maybe the screen I/O drivers
for plain ascii text would already be there.

If all this materializes, I would like to see aport of gwindows or something
I mean, it would be nice to play a cd-i game in one "window" or screen and
be on here chatting with you guys...hehehe, actually, if I wanted to do all
that, and play the game "well" maybe I would have to port OS-9 to my brain
, I dont know if I could handle it otherwise..

                                                     -* Mike

-*-

83533 29-NOV 19:23 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83532)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST

Actually, Mike, I do know that CD-RTOS does not use RBF to access the disk
(CD). Think about it. RBF only knows about the standard OS9 disk architecture.
The CD-Rom is in an ISO standard. From scanning my OSK (2.4) defs files and
such, I have gathered that the manager used is named CDFM, and is very
different from RBF. So, the question is... did the makers have the forsight
to waste a bit of ROM space for the unused RBF in the interests of future
expansion? Personally, having never seen the insides of one of these machines,
I think we'll find *only* the stuff needed to make the CD-i run. I do not
expect to find RBF, any more than I would expect to find it in a traffic
light controller.

  But as I said to Frank, if the partys involved had the foresight to include
enough to make a basic, usable personal computer in every box, then I'm
all ears. Go for it.

   Randy

-*-

83535 29-NOV 21:19 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83533)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

hmmm, that is interesting..I guess the real question know is if the makers
of the other "high end" CD-I machines (not all of them are made by philips)
use Philips ROM chips, or if all CD-I roms are the same, if they are all the
same, then RBF and SCF definatly do have to be in there, since high end
CD-I machines include floppy support (and even a future home version of CD-I
is supposed to include a singe 3.5 floppy) Hopefully philips holds some sort
of rights somehow to the cd-i roms, or at least made it a standard that all
cd-i machines include the same modules..hopefully Frank will make the system
have 2 serial ports (one for a terminal, the other for a modem), or make
a "console" option for the future, for gfx stuff and an "ibm" type keyboard
otherwise, getting OSk software into this CD-i/Osk machine will be a real
beast..with only 1 serial port..it would be close to impossible..

                                                    -* Mike

-*-

83536 29-NOV 21:27 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83520)
     From: MITHELEN     To: AJMLFCO

Well, I'd say your priceing for the "standard" components are rather on the
high side, here's my list list of prices for standard components that
probably isn't even as low as it could be is stuff was bought in quantity.

MONOchrome Monitor             < $100 (bare bones intro/developement system)
Keyboard                         $ 30
Mouse                            $ 10
PC case w/150 watt PS            $ 60
floppy (1.44 meg 3.5")           $ 50
hard drive (80 meg 5.25" HH)   < $150

Thats $400... I just save you $300. (You can mail me the left over 8-) and I
didn't even TRY... A PTK2 board can be had for less then 150$ I believe. Not
sure what size/type memory they take. But lets say memory cost another $100 for
2 meg... Thats give you a complete system for $550... with OS-9... Not to
shabby.... I'm sure that is Frank does decide to package a low cost system up,
he can beat the prices I stated above.
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83540 29-NOV 22:03 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83535)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST


Mike, as I stated before, I don't know. I have reason to suspect that the
included ROM code is minimal, but after persueing my resources, I  still
don't have a solid answer. So I asked.

>same, then RBF and SCF definatly do have to be in there, since high end
>CD-I machines include floppy support (and even a future home version of CD-I
>is supposed to include a singe 3.5 floppy) Hopefully philips holds some sort

 We are talking the mass (home) market machine here. Yes, there are CD-i
systems with full terminal and disk support. That's why I made the distintion
between home and developer machine. I did price a developers machine a few
years ago. For the money they wanted, you could buy a MM/1, KiX/30, System V,
*and* a used car. To be fair, the machine included all kinds of CD-i
development aids and libraries and such. Still, definately not a home machine.

>cd-i machines include the same modules..hopefully Frank will make the system
>have 2 serial ports (one for a terminal, the other for a modem), or make
>a "console" option for the future, for gfx stuff and an "ibm" type keyboard
>otherwise, getting OSk software into this CD-i/Osk machine will be a real
>beast..with only 1 serial port..it would be close to impossible..

 Hmmm, you talk like it's a done deal. This is what I'm trying to avoid until
some more facts are in. Is this idea workable?? Dunno. And, really, I don't
think Frank knows for sure, either. Go back and reread Frank's original
message. I have several times now. It appears to me that Frankis saying that
he's looking into making a limited board for a few brave souls to go exploring
with. If this exploration pans out, and the people are able to reverse
engineer the missing OSK parts, then he will do a production run of ????

 So, back to the original question. What is in the runtime CD-RTOS rom? How
valid of an idea is this??

  Randy

-*-

83541 29-NOV 22:13 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83523)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: LMCCLURE

 I would love to see an inexpensive port of OSK to the Amiga!  New ROMs for
OSK would be icing on the cake!
 Wayne

-*-

83543 29-NOV 22:26 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83540)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: RANDYKWILSON

Mike, one other thing that I gleaned from reading the defs files. Just hit
me that it applies here:

  OS-9 (6809) was designed so that only the kernel and BOOT (coco also needs
REL) have to be in ROM. When the kernel is initializing, if it can't find
things needed, like INIT, it calls F$Boot. This call executes the boot
module to load the (rest of the) bootfile from some other media. OSK does
not work this way. It expects everything needed to be loaded into ram at once.
Doesn't matter if it's coming from disk or out of ROM.
 However, CDFM has the capabilities of doing a F$Boot call, just like 6809.
This makes it so that only the kernel, CDFM, and whatever screen drivers, are
in ROM, even on a developers machine. It would allow them to put things like
disk drivers, RBF, serial and printer stuff, etc. into a boot file on a CD.
Ah yes. Shades of our favorite machine. You end up with this game machine,
with all kinds of weird add-ons and external drives. Stick in this special
disk, type in the magic command, and BOOM: inistant OS9 box. :>

 Note that this is purely hypothetical. The only evidence supporting it is
the existance of a F$Boot capability in CDFM. And it makes sense financially.


  Randy

-*-

83549 29-NOV 22:40 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83488)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX

 > Heck Frank, I'm even interested in the $100 deal! Type up a notice
 > I can print in the magazine and I'll see if I can get you some more
 > interest..

Thanks, but  I don't plan to go further unless there is more interest
which doesn't seem to be there yet. We'll see what happens over the
next week or two.

Frank

-*-

83550 29-NOV 22:41 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83492)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX

 > Frank, the system I was talking about would be under $1000 COMPLETE
 > with case and all. Your Kix 20 is over $1200 and you still need a
 > monitor, keyboard, and etc etc.

Yeah but your using a CGA monitor etc. Why would anyone invest a grand
in what sounds like a dead end system? Sorry to be harsh but you can
get USED 68K machines for what you are talking about. I have a TC70
that belongs to Toni Long that she is only asking $500 for. There are
other used computers around that would fill the bill better in my mind.

BTW I didn't mean to 'step on you' but you are now competing with me and
other vendors when you offer to 'sell' a computer.

Frank

-*-

83551 29-NOV 22:41 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83500)
     From: FHOGG        To: WA2EGP

 > Well, I did leave a message on the forum when I got it.  Never got
 > any comments or replies.

Sad to hear that. Wonder what we can make of that... if anything.


-*-

83552 29-NOV 22:42 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83519)
     From: FHOGG        To: RANDYKWILSON

 > Frank, could you tell us what software is already in a user CD-i box...

I don't have the full details at this point. I do know of a company that
has successfully connected a SCSI card to the CD-I player so I know the
concept is sound. I was hoping some of the CD-I 'lurkers' would respond
with those details. However let me make this statement. It ain't going
to be a simple job. It WILL require effort and knowledge to get this done.
The potential market 'may' be very large but the gamble is too high for
any one sane company to tackle. That is why I suggested the dev board.
It would provide the basic hardware for those who were interested in
tackling this. NO guarantees from me on the outcome. The production board
is NOT a product I plan on doing until and unless the software is done for
it. Now then if I win the lottery things may be different. <g>

 > I think it best not to get the CoCo community's hopes up to high.
 > WE don't need another Rocket letdown right now.

I was really sorry that the coco community did not support the Rocket
project when it mattered. Chris Burke evendently put a lot of work in
it to no avail. There was not enough coco guys who placed an
order to make the project go. Less than 40 last I heard. Now if several
hundred had placed orders for it I think you would be looking at one
now. If the coco community does not support efforts from vendors then
there will be no vendors. I can say that because I am no longer a coco
vendor. We dropped support for it last year due to lack of interest. If
you want something for your coco you better buy it quick. This CD-I thing
is for the low end OSK community which may, by accident, be of interest
to the coco community.

Frank


-*-

83553 29-NOV 22:42 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83523)
     From: FHOGG        To: LMCCLURE

 > Wouldn't you also need a keyboard port or at least an RS-232 port
 > to attach a terminal to?

There is a keyboard port on the back of the CD-I player. It is apparently
a serial port because you can also connect a modem to it. I don't have
any more info on it than that. As far as what the 'production' board
would have, a serial port would be easy. Remember that everything you
add increases the list by about 4 times the cost of the part. Think
of the coco disk controllers. Many were sold in all different
configurations. So using that as a guide you can imagine the number
of options you could have. They just cost money. Or as one of the
contractors said when I asked if he could do a difficult job...

"Sure, anything can be done if you sprinkle enough money on it."


 > If you are counting on the person already having a terminal (or
 > another computer), a floppy drive, and a CD-I machine, isn't that
 > restricting the market just a bit?

Anything you do, from adding more features and increasing the cost
to leaving off features to reduce the cost will restrict the market.
The process is to start with something and when enough potential
customers say, "If that thing was purple I would buy it." Then you
make a purple version of the thing.

You have to start somewhere.

 > After all, even at $100 for an interface, no cost for a terminal...

You 'could' use a TV set to start with.

 > and you are a bit over $500.

Picky picky

 > Still, I think the idea has merit.
 > Of course, so would a good, relatively inexpensive OSK port for
 > the Amiga 1200 (possibly with new ROMs for booting OSK).

If that was a good idea then it would be a product today. The two
ports of OSK to foreign platforms (Atari ST and Mac) have not met
with the success necessary to make anyone invest the time and money
to do a port for the Amiga.

The REAL reason CD-I is so attractive is that OSK (or most of it) is
in ROM on the player. That makes a huge difference when the cost of
OSK is fully 1/3 of the cost of the under $1000 machines available
today.

Frank

-*-

83556 29-NOV 23:16 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83551)
     From: WA2EGP       To: FHOGG

Nah!  Nothing to make of that.  Being a teacher, I'm used to not being
listened to (grin).

-*-

83557 29-NOV 23:24 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83513)
     From: WA2EGP       To: JOHNBAER

My Sears is waiting for the "full motion" module.  They expect to get it in
"a couple of weeks" and supposedly going for about $200.  I didn't notice an
ooops any movie titles but the person I talked to said that most movies will
be one disk, longer movies will take 2 (or more....2001?).  Might be
interesting when this hits.

-*-

83559 30-NOV 00:05 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83540)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

Oh yeah, i realize this idea is still that, an idea..I was speaking in
terms of what the idea would really need, hardware wise to be usable..and 2
serial ports would be needed. As for what is actually in a CD-I machine,
I am going to find out, a few calls to Optimage/Microware/Philips should
do the trick..I am sure someone can tell me what is/is not in the CD-RTOS
ROM in the CD-I machine..

Of course, the only REAL way on knowing, for sure 100% is to grab the code
from the CD-I Rom itself...but a good solid ansewer from someone at 1 of the
above companies satisfies me enough..

                                               -* Mike

PS, have you found any more info on that AudioPORT "thing" for use with the
CoCoIO?

-*-

83562 30-NOV 00:35 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83559)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST

Yeah, Mike, the potential for running OSK on a CD-i box is there. It wouldn't
take all that much for one of the CD-i makers to build a machine with all
the necessary stuff, for a price. But I really don't think we, the coco
community, have the power to retrofit the current generation home machines.
As Frank said, it's gonna take people with serious OSK knowledge to pull it
off. The *few* among us with anything approaching the knowledge got it by
working with OSK. They already have it, and most likely have more pressing
projects. :>

 RE: Sound board and CoCoIO. Ummm, haven't had a chance to look into it.
Life with cocoio kinda blew up. There for a while, due to  chip supply
problems, it looked like the cocoio would lose it's para port. I sit here
with a mound of data sheets piled beside the desk (and Rick has an even
bigger pile), saying the crisis is over; an alternate (two actually) has
been  worked out. But this time, I wanna see a 68 pin plcc chip in Rick's
hand before openning mouth. :>


    Randy

-*-

83578 30-NOV 05:50 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83552)
     From: BROWN80      To: FHOGG

There may be a wider range of interest in a CD-I interface than you think.  A
CD-I makes a IBM style rom drive look a little shabby.  Have you seen the cost
of Developement systems for CD-I?  With an interface and a tape driver you
might be able to eventually back into a developement system.  I would be in-
terested in such an interface not as a cheap OSK machine, since I have one
already,  but as an extension of the possibilities of OSK
                            John Brown

-*-

83583 30-NOV 11:20 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83437)
     From: CBJ          To: FHOGG

Hey Frank, when are you going to market the CDI Multi-Pak?  Sounds like we'll
need one <GRIN>.  Let's see, a CDI, Hard drive, Full motion video, Floptical,
Tape back up unit, Floppies, Printer, Serial ports, etc., etc.  This is gunna
be fun!  If you design it, we'll buy it!!
 -Carl

-*-

83584 30-NOV 11:37 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83536)
     From: CBJ          To: MITHELEN

Paul,
     You are even on the high side for some of those components!  If you shop
around you can find Keyboards for $15, 80MEG Hard Drives for $80-90 (REFURBs)
Cases and Power Supplies for $30-45, CGA COLOR monitors for $100-125, CGA cards
for $15-20, Drive controllers for $20.  Too bad we can't get it all for free.
 -Carl


-*-

83591 30-NOV 19:32 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83520)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: AJMLFCO

IF you were putting the machine together piece by piece with no discounting
what-so-ever, your math would be correct. I have a source for NEW, UNUSED, 8088
and 80286 machines that will guarantee the components even AFTER I remove the
original motherboards.
 They want to dump.. er. .. "clear some warehouse space" to use some Tandy
words... so I can get a better deal on the components.

This machine will IN NO WAY be a "competitor" for the faster, more capable KiX
and System IV/V machines from FHL and Delmar, respectively. The systems I'm
proposing simply don't have the power of the more expensive systems. They will
either have monochrome
 or CGA monitors, though I am working to get a mono VGA at just slightly over
the CGA price. I will support these systems, and they are upgradeable by
replacing the motherboard, but that is strictly a user option. The bottom line:
If you are pretty sure yo
u want to stay with OSK, buy one of the faster machines if you have the money.
If you simply DON'T HAVE THE CASH, or ARE NOT SURE YOU WANT TO STAY WITH
OS-9/68K, then you may want to purchase one of these stop-gap, budget systems
instead. And these CAN be
upgraded in a year or so at an acceptable price ($300 or less for a new 16 bit,
faster motherboard), considering the initial cost. Now realize that the $300
upgrade is a MAXIMUM figure, and an educated emaximum ESTIMATE. They will most
likely be cheaper to
 upgrade in a couple years. But then upgrading will require a new motherboard,
which could just as well be a KiX! Oh yes, the systems will have a 720K drive
instead of a 360K... required, actually, for the OSK operating system.

-*-

83592 30-NOV 19:34 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83562)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

:) Yeah, that chip supply must be a real pain in the uh, <insert body part here>

I have been hunting for some good "hard core" specs on it, but no one I talked
to yet has given me any...grrrr..I am still trying though..

~          -* Mike

-*-

83593 30-NOV 19:34 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83529)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: JEJONES

I've been taken to task on that one! I saw the Memorex in a catalog, then the
VIS in the store, and thought they were one and the same. The Memorex wasn't in
the catalog or showroom for long!!

-*-

83595 30-NOV 19:41 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83549)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Well Frank, I HAVE been considering purchase of a CD-I machine. Your idea WOULD
be another reason to do it! If you want to write up a short "notice" about the
POSSIBILITY of doing it, I'll print it. You can always state that it may not be
pursued unless en
ough interest is generated... I'll make it prominent by printing in bold or
italics!  You also need to consider contacting Phillips about it (if you
haven't already!), as they may be interested in marketing such a device, or may
already have one in the wor
ks.

-*-

83597 30-NOV 19:50 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83551)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Well, you are correct in stating that there are SOME used systems available.
The system I'm considering IS upgradeable... with a motherboard cahnge.hange...
but at a reasonable price. And the upgrade could just as well be a KiX board as
anything else. I do
n't think this would be competing with your low end systems. I have made it
clear in other messages that if you have the finances then you should consider
a KiX or System IV/V. But there are some who would like something cheaper to
play with NOW, so they w
ill know for sure if they want to upgrade to a faster, more expensive system.
There won't be any faster systems from me as complete units, at least I'm not
expecting to do that AT ALL. I'd have to sell a LOT of these to even consider
such a thing, and don'
t expect to sell over a dozen. This isn't a big money maker for me either.. it
is mainly a magazine article series showing how to setup and put together an
OSK system. Many of the techniques will apply to the KiX as well.

I have decided two things, though... the monitors will be monochrome in order
to cheaply increase resolution. I may be able to get VGA mono (B&W) monitors
for only a small price penalty, and will go that way if possible. A 720K drive
will be the smallest a
lso, necessitated by OSK!

Even with these additions, the cost of a fully assembled, ready to go system
won't exd $1000, S&H included. And a component kit will be less. I mentioned
$1000 because I can deliver at that price REGARDLESS of waht comes up... I
could almost buy items piec
e by piece and still achieve that figure.



-*-

83598 30-NOV 19:55 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83552)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Frank, I'm going to take Chris Burke to task here, and I'll give him a public
appoloy later if it is warranted. I attempted to get more infor on the Rocket
from him for about two months. Over a thirty day period, I called three times
at different times of
the day and on different days, wrote at least once, and left E-mail here and at
his Internet address. I didn't receive even one reply. Even so, I ordered a
Rocket anyway. I was interested in possibly purchasing 4-5 for an agent in
Australia. The point is,
how many people tried to get in touch with B&B and couldn't, so didn't order
anything? I didn't expect a return phone call, but left my address AND
requested he call me collect. No reply over two months though???

-*-

83599 30-NOV 19:57 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83591)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: FHOGG

yes frank, if you marketed a board like that for CD-i, i would most defiantly
buy it..I have been fiddeling with the idea of buying a CD-i player for awhile
but always decided to wait and see how CD-i takes off, more and more discs are
coming out, and with the full motion video, CD-i alone looks good..if you
marketed the board, I would be the  first one to run down to sears and pick
up a cd-i machine, and to give you a call..ok, maybe not the first, it
would take me 2 weeks to get all the $$ together...

                                      -* Mike

-*-

83600 30-NOV 20:00 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83553)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Frank, the port of OS-9 to ANYTHING isn't making a lot of inroads. If you
didn't have to pay the high royalties to microware, your systems could be
cheaper. I was told that microware wanted to start having UltraC, a near $1200
product, bundled with all sys
tems now. I know they aren't forcing you guys to do that now, but will they? In
other words, I don't think microware is interested in a mass market product,
they have a profitable niche as is. The ports to other platforms are high,
considering they already
 have a good multi-tasking (if not user) OS with them. OS-9 doesn't hold
anything over System 7, and not much over the ST DOS either!

-*-

83606 30-NOV 21:25 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83592)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST

Well, there's chip supply problems, then there's chip SUPPLY problems. The
first chip chosen, the most capable of all options considered, turned out
to be very difficult to get from  any supplier. After much waiting, and then
many many phone calls, we found the cause of the supply delays. It never
went into production!!
 The options being studied now use a much slower chip. But before everyone
gets in an uproar, this is not a bad thing at all. Rather than being eight
times faster than the coco can possibly handle, it will only be four times
faster.  :>

   Later...

    `  Randy

-*-

83616 1-DEC 00:04  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83557)
     From: JOHNBAER     To: WA2EGP


> My Sears is waiting for the "full motion" module.  They expect to get it
> in "a couple of weeks" and supposedly going for about $200.  I didn't
> notice an ooops any movie titles but the person I talked to said that most
> movies will be one disk, longer movies will take 2 (or more....2001?).
> Might be interesting when this hits.
>

  Ya, I tryed to get Sears to take a pre-order,,, no go.  So I ordered it
from a company in Ohio.  I should have it in 3 weeks.  They sold out the
first batch they got in already <g>.

  As for the `multi disk' movies.. It would be nice if they did the `break'
in the movie and showed about one minute of the first disk on the second
disk so you wouldn't get the feeling that you mised something.

  I guess the next generation machine will be a multi disk player for those
movies <g>.  Will wait and see.

-
   John Baer
   johnbaer@delphi.com
   jbaer@pacs.pha.pa.us

   *** InfoXpress 1.01.00 ***

-*-

83618 1-DEC 00:27  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83600)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX

Does anybody, including Microware, know if Microware 'has' a marketing
stratagy?

Frank

-*-

83621 1-DEC 00:28  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83578)
     From: FHOGG        To: BROWN80

Hi John,

Good idea. All it would take would be a SCSI select on the 'board'
so it could be used both ways. Oh and just a bit of software. <g>

Frank

-*-

83622 1-DEC 00:28  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83583)
     From: FHOGG        To: CBJ

Carl,

That's the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Frank

-*-

83623 1-DEC 00:29  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83595)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX


 > You also need to consider contacting Phillips about it (if you haven't
 > already!), as they may be interested in marketing such a device, or may
 > already have one in the works.

Frank,

How long can you hold your breath. Sorry to say but they are totally
not interested in this... last I heard.


-*-

83624 1-DEC 00:29  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83598)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX

Yes I did read your comments but I 'think' that by that point in
time he probably read the writing on the wall and may have already
decided to ditch it. It is a fact that the coco community is now
very small and apparently not interested in supporting those vendors
that are left. I guess another way of saying this is you should
stop beating the dead horse. However I don't want to get into a
discussion about the coco. I had a great 10 years or so with it
and made and lost a hunk of money. That's the past. The future
is OSK, GWindows lots of RAM, huge hard drives, CD-I etc etc.

Frank

-*-

83625 1-DEC 00:29  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83599)
     From: FHOGG        To: ILLUSIONIST

Mike,

That's the kind of comments that we need to hear if this product
is going anywhere.

Frank

-*-

83626 1-DEC 00:37  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83616)
     From: WA2EGP       To: JOHNBAER

Heck....did you ever hear of "intermission"?  (Fancy word for potty break)

-*-

83627 1-DEC 00:38  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83598)
     From: ISC          To: DSRTFOX

Frank,

I, too, have been trying to contact Chris Burke for over 2 months and have
no reply.  I wanted to buy something from him, but he did not even respond
to my credit card number!

Bill

-*-

83629 1-DEC 02:12  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83553)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: FHOGG


            "You 'could' use a TV set to start with."

Ick! For an OSK machine!?! <grin>

     "If that was a good idea then it would be a product today."
      (Referring to an OSK port to the Amiga).

If one were to use that logic, there would have been no use in you
asking about the possibility of a board to use a CD-I machine as an
OSK computer, as it would have been a product already if the idea was
good. Not all good ideas become products, and as Tandy's VIS proves,
not all products are good ideas. <grin>

The failure of the OSK ports to the ST and Mac does not in itself
indicate the concept is bad. It could just as easily indicate poor
product and marketing on the part of the company developing and
selling the product.

With the A1200 selling for under $400 mailorder, having a floppy
drive, parallel and serial ports, built-in hard drive (IDE) support,
a 14.32Mhz 68020, and 2 megs memory expandable to 10, and readily
available accelerators, and standard graphics supporting not only
NTSC graphics, but also 640x480 output at VGA scan rates with
256 colors out of a 24-bit pallete, I suggest it makes for a
better 'personal' OSK machine, provided a *decent* OSK port could
be made available for $200-$300. Given the price the MM/1 and TC-70
sold for with OSK included, unless the hardware was a mere fraction of
the selling price, this does not seem unreasonable.

However, I do agree almost any port of OSK to a non-OSK 'native'
machine will likely fail. Why? Because those purchasing the machine
will likely be lured into using software for the machine's native OS,
which, at least for personal use, is more readily available even for
the Atari ST than for OSK, and of course, would be more likely to
take advantage of any special hardware.

Correct me if I am wrong, but one problem with ports of OSK to other
machines is one a CD-I machine converted to an OSK computer would face:
The "personal" market for OSK is limited.


-*-

83636 1-DEC 05:22  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83598)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: DSRTFOX

Was the same way with me after I ordered powerbooster. I had some ? about
the 6309 development stuff I wanted to buy it. same problem, no returned
calls, email etc.. I never bought the kit.


-*-

83639 1-DEC 05:52  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83618)
     From: EDELMAR      To: FHOGG


 I surprised you, of all people, would ask such a question.  Microware
 very definitely has a marketing strategy.  It does not include the
 personal user.  It is directed towards the real-time, multi-user market;
 preferably for imbedded applications.  I'm not defending them nor do I
 necessarily agree with them or like it.  Just telling it like it is.

 Ed

-*-

83650 1-DEC 20:47  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83624)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

As far as someone making a lot of money or staking a business on the CoCo, I
have to agree with you. My bit is hobby only, and I make money becasue I am
supporting OSK AND the CoCo. At this point, many of my readers are interested a
lot in OS-9 and OSK, bu
t at least half only use a CoCo. They are interested in keeping abreast of OSK
so that when it looks like there is a reason for them to get a new machine,
they will know and be able to make a knowledgeable decission as to what machine
they should buy. Vend
orsare still making "pocket change" on the CoCo, but I believe that is all...
enough to cover expenses for their hobby, but no real money. That's enough for
some of us, for now anyway.

-*-

83651 1-DEC 20:50  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83650)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EDELMAR

I think the question FH asked me about microware's strategy was partly in
jest... at least I took it that way. You're right, of course, they don't care
much about a personal user. It takes high volume to make money in a personal
market, the industrial mark
et pays better for less work!

-*-

83654 1-DEC 22:18  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83629)
     From: FHOGG        To: LMCCLURE

 > If one were to use that logic, there would have been no use in you
 > asking about the possibility of a board to use a CD-I machine as an
 > OSK computer, as it would have been a product already if the idea was
 > good.

Not true. The reason using CD-I now 'may' be a good idea is that the
price has dropped from $800 to $400. THAT makes it different.

 > better 'personal' OSK machine, provided a *decent* OSK port could
 > be made available for $200-$300.

The main reason that it would cost more is not the cost of the licensee
but the cost of doing a port to hardware that was not meant to run it.
In the case of the KiX the hardware was designed with OSK in mind. The
software people had all the information needed to do the port and the
cost could be better justified as part of the hardware. Also in the case
of the KiX most of the drivers are derived from previous ports. As a
matter of fact Hazelwood makes it a point to use the same parts from one
platform to the next to reduce the cost of making a port to each new
machine.

You can buy various ROMless Mac logic boards from $200 up. I think 020
boards go for $300. However the cost of doing the port would be high.

I know that doing the port for the Mac was very difficult. The only way
they can recover that cost is to sell the OS. Also when ever a new Mac
comes they are forced to support it.

 > The "personal" market for OSK is limited.

The market for OSK now is much like the market for 6809 was back before
the CoCo. The questions to ponder and ask yourself are these.

 Could the CD-I player become the next coco?

 Will the introduction of a board to turn it into a computer sell?

 How many of the assumed 100,000 will buy it?

 If even a small percentage buy it how will that effect the current
OSK market?

 Is this a great opportunity or just a pipe dream?

ponder ponder on

Frank


-*-

83655 1-DEC 22:18  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83639)
     From: FHOGG        To: EDELMAR


I was joking.



-*-

83659 1-DEC 23:12  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83606)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

:), does this "new" chip support both serial/parr. ports too? like the
'553? or just 2 serial, or 1 serial, 1 par. ???

-*-

83661 1-DEC 23:36  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83659)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST

Mike, still two serial andone parallel. The serials will still capable of
115200 (not sure if the coco can take that). Well, really, the chip is
capable of 512K bps, but that's definately out of coco range. :>

  Randy

-*-

83664 2-DEC 00:11  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83626)
     From: JOHNBAER     To: WA2EGP


 > Heck....did you ever hear of "intermission"?  (Fancy word for potty
 > break)

   ha ha... Yea, thats what I like about watching recorded stuff.. pause,
 liquid in,,, liquid out.. and no bubble gum on me seat when I get back.

-
   John Baer
   johnbaer@delphi.com
   jbaer@pacs.pha.pa.us

   *** InfoXpress 1.01.00 ***

-*-

83668 2-DEC 00:25  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83591)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: DSRTFOX

My prices we just a quick pass through Computer Shopper.
If you can meet or beat Computer Shopper mail-order
pricing, more power to ya!  No one should be "whining"
about cost if you can do that!  Sounds neat.  I doubt that
a system like you describe takes a sale away from others
because as you say, you're at a different level.

Allen

-*-

83670 2-DEC 04:40  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83606)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: RANDYKWILSON


     "After much waiting, and then many many phone calls, we found
      the cause of the supply delays. It never went into production!!"

So the 16553 turned out to be vaporware?

What chip are you planning on using now?

-*-

83675 2-DEC 19:31  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83651)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: DSRTFOX

 I think they could have a piece of the personal market without giving an
inch in the industrial sector. I have come to believe that there are a
good number of folks at Microware that agree but Mr. Kaplan wont budge!
<Phil>

-*-

83682 2-DEC 22:01  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83670)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: LMCCLURE

Uh, I should have said it  hasn't gone into mass production yet, and they
are no longer forecasting a release date. But call it what you want.

As I said to Mike, I really want to have plastic in hand before committing
too far. We're  looking at various renditions of the 16552. None of them
are totally compatable with the 553 (*lots*lower max ratings, for one), but
will with minor board and software changes. Do note that while these chips
are slower than the 553, their still a lot more than the coco needs.

  Randy

-*-

83686 2-DEC 23:13  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83410)
     From: THETAURUS    To: EDELMAR

        >>Please - it's Ed, not Frank :-)
        Aaahhh, same thing. ;-)

        >> For the forseeable future, the System IV will remain in our
   product line. It is selling quite well.

        That's good to hear. No matter what, the more systems available,
   the more that will be sold, which will bring more development. That's
   my guess anyway :-)
        See Ya
        >Chris<

-*-

83688 2-DEC 23:14  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83461)
     From: THETAURUS    To: FHOGG

        >> The TC70 was discontinued because nobody wanted to buy it.

        In that case it wasn't such a bad idea, but I think to be a
   little more fair, the KIX-20 price should also include the MGA Card
   with Gwindows<adding about $600.00>. Still not a bad price, but I
   think it is a more realistic comparison since, without the MGA, users
   cannot hookup a keyboard and are restricted to using it as a
   terminal<Coco if it is being sold to a Coco user> based system. I
   don't think it should be considered a COMPLETE system untill you at
   least have keyboard and mouse capability, if not also a keyboard and
   mouse with it, since basically any system sold nowadays includes that
   support. Maybe another idea would be to include keyboard support
   through another graphics card similar to MGA, but not as robust, which
   would come with the computer, and then allow them to purchase MGA
   later<as you do now>. I think the $1970 you list at the end of your
   message seems like more of a fair comparison.
        >>Now that we've finished the house, I'll have more time to
   play...
        Sounds Great! I'm looking forward to seeing you in forum and
   maybe conference more often. I think it also helps boost the
   confidence of potential customers when they see you around more.
   'Course it isn't easy Both running a buisiness like you are, and ALSO
   having time to hang around online. I don't even run a buisiness and
   still barely have time to reply to messages!
        >Chris<

-*-

83690 2-DEC 23:14  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83490)
     From: THETAURUS    To: DSRTFOX

        Sounds good Frank. I don't know anyone willing to write a review
   myself but I know there are at least two Kix-30 owners here<besides
   Frank Hogg of course :-) > tho I forget who they are<can't remember
   the user names>. Oh yeah AJMLFCO is one of them.
        >Chris<

-*-

83692 2-DEC 23:50  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83688)
     From: FHOGG        To: THETAURUS (NR)


Chris,

Re KiX\20 pricing without the MGA added.
More than 90% of sales to date of the KiX\20 are without the MGA
card. Most OSK users are terminal users. We are always considering
making changes and additions to the KiX line depending on demand
from users and potential users. A low cost video card has come up
several times. Two things to remember in the KiX systems are:
1... All KiX video cards (MGA) are 32 bit and have to have mouse
and keyboard support which adds to the cost. 2... Most of our
customers tend to opt for the faster (more expensive) options.
With that in mind a lower cost video card would only be $100 or
so lower. Unless we could offer some other reason to buy it I think
most would opt to spend the extra cash in trade for the speed of
the MGA. We are looking at this and trying to find a way to offer
more features AND keep the speed AND lower the cost. Maybe by the
end of 94. In the meantime the MGA is still the fastest 68K GWindows
video system available and that ain't bad.

We are now working on our new flyer and a major part of it will be
system pricing that will hopefully make it easier to put together
the package you want.

Frank


-*-

83693 2-DEC 23:52  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83490)
     From: FHOGG        To: DSRTFOX


Frank,

Actually there are at least 6 KiX\30 users on here. For reasons of
their own they have not offered to do your review. I 'could' loan
you a 33Mhz one to do the review but I would hate to be the one to
spoil you for other, slower, computers.

(Whiz, bang, splat.... I duck under the table as the sound of
something soft and mushy hits the fan blades and bounces all over
the room. A pungent order fills the air and I suddenly have the
intense desire to open the window for fresh air.)


Frank

PS. Re: "other, slower, computers"  I'm joking. ;)


-*-

83694 3-DEC 00:28  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83664)
     From: WA2EGP       To: JOHNBAER

Of course, you can always hit pause without those darn annoying lines like on
a VCR.  BTW, I took my machine into school and showed it to the people in the
art department (with a disk on Impressionist painters).  Thye are now trying
to check all the RS stores to see if there is another one "lying around".
I guess they were impressed.  One music teacher also checked it out.  He
was also impressed that it can be hooked up to a stereo amp and that it was
made by Philips.  At the price I paid, he said it was a steal (which it was).
I just hope I can get it back! (Grin)

-*-

83695 3-DEC 00:41  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83553)
     From: BUDDCAR      To: FHOGG

Evening Frank.  Well at least it is evening at the moment.  Not that it
helps but the reason I have not shown much interest in the CDI discussion
is that Tandy (Intertan) never carried the machines up here.  If I could get
my hands on one it would be an interesting toy and a possible mate for
my TC70. (yes it is still working so I don't quite yet have an excuse to go
KIX).
Funny discussion - personal opinion is that terminal systems don't have a lot of

appeal to a cocoist who has had graphics to play with.  More a toy for the
software
phreak.
 Bob P.

-*-

83706 3-DEC 13:34  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83694)
     From: MITHELEN     To: WA2EGP

Hey... I can hit pause on my VCR, and I get PERFECT sztill frame... Looks
like you need to update your VCR 8-) I only paid 230$ for the VCR
(ok.. 9it was used), but I got it mainly cause the still frame was
so good. (It also has a jog/shuttle control) It would be great for
digitizing, If only I had a digitizer on my MM/1 8-(

-*-

83712 3-DEC 20:57  General Information
     1655x (Re: Msg 83682)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: RANDYKWILSON

What are the primary differences between the 16553 and 16552? Are the
UARTs on the 16552 fully 16550-compatible, or are they more like the 16450?

Enquiring minds want to know! (and so do I <grin>)!


-*-

83714 3-DEC 20:59  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83654)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: FHOGG


You made a good point about the cost of actually writing the port of
OSK to a different machine once the license is obtained; I had not
factored that into my thoughts when I made the original post.

I cannot say I have really kept up with the costs of CD-I players.
What large chains still carry them? Software Etc. was the only place
I knew of locally that carried it, and they pulled in recently in
favor of 3DO (which they do not even have on display, BTW).


-*-

83720 3-DEC 21:22  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83675)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: PHILSCHERER

Well, I'm working on reducing the cost of OSK with another vendor. That is
a BIG chunk of the problem! Of course, the c compiler will be dropped, but
we have another idea on that. Eventually, a new linker and assembler will
be written for the GNU compiler, or another non-linking compiler has been
mentioned. I don7t know enough about C to know the difference between a
linking and non-linking compiler, nor the advantages/disadvantages. An
explanation would help the decision!

-*-

83721 3-DEC 21:23  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83682)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: LMCCLURE (NR)

I guess that chip was like the 6809 MMU.. some examples released, then not
enough interest to warrant full scale production!

-*-

83722 3-DEC 21:28  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83693)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

If I were somewhat more experienced with OS-9 on the CoCo, I might would
take you up on that! But, I wouldn't really even know how to test the thing
after I got it. And you're right... the KiX 30 makes the system I am
considering look like a VW bug at a stop light beside a Porsche 928....

-*-

83723 3-DEC 21:31  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83722)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: LMCCLURE (NR)

Sears carries the Phillips Imagination Machine. So does Macy's. I don't know of
anyone else, but you should be able to locate a Sears catalog!

-*-

83724 3-DEC 21:35  General Information
     RE: 1655x (Re: Msg 83712)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: LMCCLURE (NR)

All the 16552 (or at least the four versions we currently know about) are
totally 550 compatable. They are all rated for up to 8mhz which nets a max
speed of 512K bps. They do not have the extended features of the 553, such as
a max rating of 24mhz (2M bps). From here on out all four chips differ some.
One (the first we looked at and dismissed) does not have the para port. Another
is currently "out of stock". The two remaining (#'s 3 and 4 on our discover
list) are not totally pin compatable. This means minor differences in board
design. So, we want a rock solid supply lined up (plastic in hand), as I'm
sure you can understand.

  To date, the only design goal, and spec as pertaining to the CoCo, to change
is the release date.

   I mean..... come on. What good would this thing be without the FIFOs? :>

   Randy

-*-

83729 3-DEC 21:48  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83693)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: FHOGG

Frank, the only way to make the KiX 20 an ideal low cost system would be to
use some type of existing VGA chipset (there must be a VESA chipset that is
32 bit... or could you squeeze the 32 bits into a 16 bit set at an acceptable
speed????) and keyboard controller.... possibly built directly onto the
motherboard instead of a card. If a card could be kept n close to $250 (less
than half theMGA price), it SHOULD find some support as long as it is as fast
as IBM VGA.

The MGA at least sounds fantastic, but you pay for that performance!

-*-

83730 3-DEC 21:51  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83695)
     From: KSCALES      To: BUDDCAR (NR)

Hi, Bob -

 >Not that it
 > helps but the reason I have not shown much interest in the CDI discussion
 > is that Tandy (Intertan) never carried the machines up here.  If I could
 > get my hands on one it would be an interesting toy and a possible mate
 > for my TC70.

For the last few weeks, MultiTech have been featuring a Philips CD-I
machine for $698, including the "special introductory offer" Compton's
Interactive Encyclopedia.  This is the first time I have seen any CD-I machine
available in the Ottawa area.  If there is a MultiTech in
your area, you may want to check it out.

  ... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83733 4-DEC 00:37  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83706)
     From: WA2EGP       To: MITHELEN (NR)

Your lucky if you can get "perfect" freeze frame on your VCR.  Of course, the
CDI machine gives perfect freeze with greater number of scan lines (if not
the full amount) than most, if not all VCRs.  The VCRs around here are bought
by cheap price, not quality.  If I want to see a good tape, I use the 8mm.

-*-

83734 4-DEC 00:43  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83720)
     From: JEJONES      To: DSRTFOX (NR)

 > I don't know enough about C to know the difference between a
 > linking and non-linking compiler, nor the advantages/disadvantages.

"Linking" is the process of "resolving" references to objects used but
not defined in a piece or pieces of code so that you wind up with something
that can actually be run.  This can happen long before the code is run
(the usual case with programming languages that have a batch-oriented
origin), done by a separate "linker" program, or it can happen as the
code is run (with unresolved references being noticed somehow and filled
in on the fly, sort of like BASIC09 or RunB looking in the module
directory for invoked procedures, though not necessarily that way--to
see how it can be done, look at old papers on the "Multics" operating
system).

Another approach to compiling is to just not allow unresolved references,
so that the compiler presumes that all references are either to language
built-in routines or things defined in the source code.  This is done
in some interactive systems and in some "student" or "debugging" oriented
batch systems, like the old WATFOR and WATFIV FORTRAN compilers.

Non-linking compilers have compilation speed on their side, since they
don't have to go traipsing through libraries or have a separate linker
pass--they just write the executable out directly, some even bypassing
an assembly language stage.  OTOH, it's hard to reuse code with them...
though on the third hand, a really fast "non-linking" compiler could
allow for sharing at the source level, and if it's fast enough, perhaps
nobody would notice the difference.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83735 4-DEC 00:43  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83714)
     From: JEJONES      To: LMCCLURE (NR)

 > I cannot say I have really kept up with the costs of CD-I players.
 > What large chains still carry them?

The ones I know of are Sears, Service Merchandise, and Rex.  (There may
be others; those are just the ones I know of.)

I got a J&R Computer World catalog in the mail the other day.  It had a
couple of pages that it said were of various items in their J&R Music
World catalog, and right there was CD-I.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83743 4-DEC 06:47  General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83729)
     From: EDELMAR      To: DSRTFOX (NR)


 Frank,

 > ...  (there must be a VESA chipset that is 32 bit... or could you squeeze
 > the 32 bits into a 16 bit set at an acceptable speed????)

 Most all the new vga chipsets support 32, 16 and 8 bit buses.  The VESA
 specification is for a 32 bit bus.  While the chipsets support all the
 buses, the cards do not.  Most card mfgs are providing cards for VESA and
 16-bit ISA buses (these are separate cards).  A few are supporting the
 EISA bus.  In one sense, the VESA specification came too late.  Most of
 the new chip sets include a graphics accelerator.  The instructions for these
 functions are byte oriented.  The registers which control performing the
 various gfx functions are a single byte in size.  Depending on the function
 you wish to do, you merely set the appropriate registers and the gfx chip
 does the rest.  This has an added advantage in that the main processor is
 free to do other, unrelated work.  The improvement in gfx speed is quite
 substantial.  I'm seeing performance improvements of 3 to 5 times over our
 existing 'dumb' card.

 > If a card could be kept n close to $250 (less than half theMGA price), ..

 The good news is that these cards are available in the price range you want.
 As the competitive pressure builds up, you can expect the prices to drop.
 At least one mfg is looking at modifying his card to work in 8-bit ISA
 slots, too.  This would allow its use in the SYSTEM IV.

 Above a certain threshold and depending on the application, gfx speed isn't
 necessarily the final criterea.  The SYSTEM V is competing with several
 other systems from other mfgs to be the hardware platform for a Company
 in the industrial market.  Their product is based on G-WINDOWS and
 ControlCalc.  They are more than satisifed with the gfx performance we are
 offering.  But, it requires that the processor do the work slowing down
 other activities.  The competing hardware (and the one being used on an
 interim basis) use the newer chipsets.  At least one is using the TIGA gfx
 graphics co-processor (but it is very expensive).  All of these relieve the
 microproccessor of much of the gfx processing.  I was informed all have
 G-WINDOWS performance of at least 2 to 3 times what we're getting with the
 dumb gfx card - also told me I didn't want to know how much faster the system
 with the TIGA gfx graphics co-processor is <g>.  BTW, they have not selected
 the TIGA system as their interim system.  I was assured that the SYSTEM V
 stands a good chance of becoming their standard hardware platform when I
 finish the G-WINDOWS port to the new vga card.  Their decision is based on
 performance based on their testing, quality and price.

 > The MGA at least sounds fantastic, but you pay for that performance!

 According to the information provided by this customer, the KIX30/MGA is _not_
 the fastest machine running G-WINDOWS on OSK platforms.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83319 23-NOV 20:27 OSK Applications
     C Low Level Acess
     From: VAXELF       To: ALL


  I have again run into a mystery about C... When using Low Level Access
to the screen, I have notice the following happen. If anyone can explain
why it works this way and know a work around or fix, please let me know??


     write(Screen, buffer, n );   /* n = number of bytes in buffer */

  this works just fine........

     for (i=0; i < n; i++ )
       write(Screen, buffer[i], 1 );

  this DOES NOT work. Garbage is printed to the screen.


John Donaldson

-*-

83325 23-NOV 21:52 OSK Applications
     RE: C Low Level Acess (Re: Msg 83319)
     From: JEJONES      To: VAXELF

 > write(Screen, buffer, n );   /* n = number of bytes in buffer */
 >
 > this works just fine........
 >
 > for (i=0; i < n; i++ )
 > write(Screen, buffer[i], 1 );
 >
 > this DOES NOT work. Garbage is printed to the screen.

write() wants a *pointer* as its second parameter.  Since the first
call works fine, buffer must be either an array, which in this context
is turned into a pointer to its first element, or a pointer, which
is fine as it is.  Therefore, buffer[i] is a value of whatever type
buffer points at.  For example, if buffer has type pointer to character
or is an array of characters, buffer[i] could be, say, the character
'A', which in ASCII has some value <switch to another window>, yeah,
that's the ticket, 0x41, i.e. 65.  What write() did was write out
whatever stuff was at that (low) address in memory.

So that's why that happens.  If you really wanted to go for maximal
function call and system call overhead :-), then do

 write(Screen, &buffer[i], 1);

which gives write the pointer it wants.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83351 24-NOV 20:59 OSK Applications
     RE: C Low Level Acess (Re: Msg 83325)
     From: VAXELF       To: JEJONES

  Thanks , that makes a lot of sense. Never considered it that way.
I'll give a try and see how it goes.

John Donaldson

-*-

83413 27-NOV 05:48 OSK Applications
     RE: C Low Level Acess (Re: Msg 83319)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: VAXELF

John,

As James Jones pointed out, you need a pointer there.  To get the max
speed, why not write the whole shebang at the same time.

 > for (i=0; i < n; i++ )
 > write(Screen, buffer[i], 1 );

Change this to 'write(Screen, &buffer, n)'


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83432 27-NOV 19:41 OSK Applications
     RE: C Low Level Acess (Re: Msg 83413)
     From: VAXELF       To: MARKGRIFFITH

  That's what I'm doing. I now have it working 90% of the time. I still
get some messups, so still got some work to do.

Thanks for the response.

John D.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83321 23-NOV 20:58 General Information
     RE: Speech Pak (Re: Msg 83165)
     From: HAWKSOFT     To: COCOKIWI

TIS!!!!    tis a crystal!  changed it 5 years ago so I counld tell which
computer was speaking!!!!  (GB GRIN :->)

:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> Chris <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-:

-*-

83332 24-NOV 00:43 General Information
     RE: Speech Pak (Re: Msg 83321)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: HAWKSOFT

AH!HA!<grin>dennis

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83348 24-NOV 19:14 General Information
     Hard Drive
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: ALL

I have in my hand a Seagate st-225 hard drive. It says cyl-530, hd-0, sec-1,
bytes-124, bytes/in-486. Could someone tell me what kind of drive this is and
how big it is?? <Phil>

-*-

83349 24-NOV 19:44 General Information
     RE: Hard Drive (Re: Msg 83348)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: PHILSCHERER

What you read off the drive soounds like the error table. If so, it's not
bad at all. I've seen drives with a second sheet added on to list them
all. :>
 A ST-225 is a Seagate 20meg MFM drive. Quite common. Here's the dmode
of mine. Note that I run 34 sectors per track.

 drv=00 stp=06 typ=80 dns=02 cyl=0267 sid=04
 vfy=00 sct=0022 tos=0022 ilv=16 sas=20

  Randy

-*-

83364 25-NOV 08:49 General Information
     RE: Hard Drive (Re: Msg 83349)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi Randy--Thanks for the info on the drive! <Phil>

-*-

83367 25-NOV 10:37 General Information
     RE: Hard Drive (Re: Msg 83348)
     From: MRGOOD       To: PHILSCHERER

The ST-225 is a 20 megger.  614 cylinders

Hugo

-*-

83370 25-NOV 15:11 General Information
     RE: Hard Drive (Re: Msg 83367)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: MRGOOD

Hi Hugo--Thanks for the info! <Phil>

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83354 24-NOV 23:31 OSK Applications
     Pyramid Solitaire Demo
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: ALL

Now in the library is a demo version of my program Pyramid Solitaire for
the MM/1.

This program runs and draws the main board, and will even play a game
with itself, but the main game playing logic is disabled.

If you like Pyramid Solitaire and would like more information on it
and the other four Variations of Solitaire which comes with it, send
email to COLORSYSTEMS.


------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83407 27-NOV 04:21 OSK Applications
     RE: Pyramid Solitaire Demo (Re: Msg 83354)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: COLORSYSTEMS

Zack,

 > Now in the library is a demo version of my program Pyramid Solitaire for
 > the MM/1.

I really like your demo.  I have a question, though.  On my system,
while the demo was auto-playing, I switched screens and the pointer came
on the new screen and trashed the window... so I switched to another,
and same thing.  :)  Obviously, a K-Win bug.  I was wondering if anyone
else had this problem, and perhaps you might want to find out which
operation is causing this and post it here so the "new K-Win program,
whom shall remain nameless" might be able to squash the bug.  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83423 27-NOV 12:49 OSK Applications
     RE: Pyramid Solitaire Demo (Re: Msg 83407)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: JOELHEGBERG

 > I really like your demo.  I have a question, though.  On my system,
 > while the demo was auto-playing, I switched screens and the pointer came
 > on the new screen and trashed the window... so I switched to another,
 > and same thing.  :)  Obviously, a K-Win bug.  I was wondering if anyone
 > else had this problem, and perhaps you might want to find out which
 > operation is causing this and post it here so the "new K-Win program,
 > whom shall remain nameless" might be able to squash the bug.  :)

I quickly noticed this problem, as during testing of the autoplay mode, I
wanted to let it play for awhile to "burn it in". So I was going to switch
to another window and do some text editting, and that's when I saw it. Mouse
cursors all over the place!! I had the occasion to speak with Kevin Pease
that same day on an unrelated issue and brought up the problem. Kevin
told me it sounded like a KWindows bug which has been around since day
one. (Even #51 does not fix the problem) I have sent a copy of the program
to the person Kevin told me to send it to along with an explanation of
the problem. I have yet to hear back on any solution or whatever. Will
keep the Forum posted.


------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83355 24-NOV 23:41 General Information
     83259 msg
     From: 2RSMITH      To: EDDIEKUNS (NR)

Since you are famous on here would U please read subject message on
forum?  Just abt joining U alluns on OS9--not sz and rz--got a good annser
on that....ok? Ray

-*-

83371 25-NOV 15:24 OSK Applications
     OSK
     From: CLTUCKER     To: FHOGG

The $100 OSK sounds great. Count me in.:-)


-*-

83392 26-NOV 21:01 OSK Applications
     RE: OSK (Re: Msg 83371)
     From: FHOGG        To: CLTUCKER

Please see message #83390

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83374 25-NOV 18:23 Telecom (6809)
     RE: STG and Internet (Re: Msg 83113)
     From: THETAURUS    To: MITHELEN

        Ok, thanks. I put both STG-Net and Internet fields in the file.
        >Chris<

-*-

83375 25-NOV 18:23 General Information
     RE: State Abbreviations (Re: Msg 83127)
     From: THETAURUS    To: JWILKERSON

        >> You got Data Windows to _work_?

        Ahh, nope. Not yet :-( I'm still working on it<after not having a
   chance to toy around with it in about 3 days or so, since it is
   Thanksgiving week, and my job heats up during the holidays>. I am
   having the same problem as you sort of. I the upper left corner of my
   display screen, when I reload the database, I am getting garbage<_T or
   something like that>, replacing the name of my field. I can't enter
   any data and am getting an error I think<it has been a while> I will
   get back to work on it this weekend tho, and if I can't get it to
   work, I'll just switch to Profile.
        >Chris<

-*-

83381 25-NOV 23:55 General Information
     RE: State Abbreviations (Re: Msg 83375)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: THETAURUS

  I use profile.  It doesn'T look as good, but by god it works!  Too bad
Data Windows is such a dog.  It could have been THE CoCo database......

If you ever find a cure, let me know.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

83485 28-NOV 20:24 General Information
     RE: State Abbreviations (Re: Msg 83381)
     From: THETAURUS    To: DATA WINDOWS (NR)

        >>I use profile. It doesn't look as good, but by god it works!

        Amen! :-) I agree. I have just switched to Profile, since I can't
   figure out what the case is with Data-Windows. It's not as flashy, and
   it's not the fastest beast in the world, but it is amazingly solid.
   Data Windows will be nice once the extra 'features' are patched up a
   bit, if they ever are. I highly doubt we'll ever see new work done on
   it unless someone else decides to start support for it<including
   getting the rights from either Dave Myers or Keith Alphonso, whom both
   are out of the Coco and OS9, at least professionally>. While profile
   is quite slow, I agree it is very functional, and will stick with that
   for now, while trying in the future to figure out Data Windows.
             >Chris<

-*-

83525 29-NOV 05:00 General Information
     RE: State Abbreviations (Re: Msg 83485)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: THETAURUS

   I think there _was_ a fix for it, but it is beyond me where it may be.
It would be nice, though, if someone could dissassemble it and see if there
is a way to make patches for it.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83376 25-NOV 19:30 OSK Applications
     $100 OSK
     From: VAXELF       To: FHOGG

Frank,
  Can you send me some info on the $100 OSK. Is it Ver 3.0???

John D.

-*-

83393 26-NOV 21:01 OSK Applications
     RE: $100 OSK (Re: Msg 83376)
     From: FHOGG        To: VAXELF

Please see message #83390

-*-

83448 28-NOV 09:04 OSK Applications
     RE: $100 OSK (Re: Msg 83393)
     From: VAXELF       To: FHOGG

Frank,
   What msg #83390 ????. It does not show up when I do a dir.

What area is it in. right now I only have my access set to

     OSK APP
     OSK TEL
     OSK SYS

John D.

-*-

83457 28-NOV 13:18 OSK Applications
     RE: $100 OSK (Re: Msg 83448)
     From: FHOGG        To: VAXELF

I meant message #83390 here in the forum. Just type 83390 at the forum prompt.

83390 26-NOV 21:00 General Information
     RE: Under $1000 OSK System? (Re: Msg 83377)
     From: FHOGG        To: MIKE_GUZZI


 > Get into OSK for under $100 ??? what kind of idea? a bridge board for
 > a CoCo (like the rocket was supposed to be) or a small computer?

..

Sorry for the confusion.

Frank

-*-

83505 28-NOV 22:31 OSK Applications
     RE: $100 OSK (Re: Msg 83457)
     From: VAXELF       To: FHOGG

Frank,
  I did type 83390 and no response. I even did a dir 83300 and it did not
show up. thanks for the reprint.

John D.

-*-

83554 29-NOV 22:43 OSK Applications
     RE: $100 OSK (Re: Msg 83505)
     From: FHOGG        To: VAXELF

 > I did type 83390 and no response. I even did a dir 83300 and it
 > did not show up. thanks for the reprint.

John,

Well I typed 83390 and that is how I got the first few lines of the
thing. Whatever the reason I emailed you the message.

Frank

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83379 25-NOV 22:15 General Information
     Happy Thanksgiving
     From: REVWCP       To: ALL

Dear friends:
On this day, as we all pause to give thanks, I would like to share my
thanks for all of you who have been such an important part of my life
this past year.  Your friendships are very special.  The willingness
to offer help with programming or hardware problems, the words of
kindness for me and my family following the death of my father this
past July, the joy of seeing many of you at the Fests, the countless
hours that many of you have shared with others in the OS9 community,
for all of these and those things and people who I might not always
remember in my mind, but do in my heart, I give thanks.  May God
bless each of you and those who are near and dear to you.

With all best wishes,
Brother Jeremy, CSJW

-*-

83483 28-NOV 20:24 General Information
     RE: Happy Thanksgiving (Re: Msg 83379)
     From: THETAURUS    To: REVWCP

        Thanks for the best wishes Brother Jeremy, and I too hope you had
   a great holiday.
        Best Wishes to you.
        >Chris<

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83386 26-NOV 18:41 General Information
     Hard drive
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi Randy--I tried to use the seagate settings you sent me but I dont get that
readout when I use Dmode.I get -- cyls, hds, step, sectrk, alloc, ilv, initcmd,
 and inittbl. Could you relate the two descriptions?? <Phil>

-*-

83395 26-NOV 21:47 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83386)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: PHILSCHERER

Okay, Phil. Looks like a difference is dmode commands. Yours has a few scsi
specific items in it. S, is this a MFM drive on a B&B, or a "N" series on
something else? Might make a difference. Anyway:

 Cyl   =  Cyl  = $267   (615)
 Hds   =  Sid  = 04
 step  =  Stp  = 06  (B&Bspecific)
 sectrk=  sct  = $22  (34)
 alloc =  ???  (may be typ at $80)
 ilv   =  ilv  = depends on your system and cpu type
 initcmd and inittbl are both SCSI specific.

   Randy

-*-

83417 27-NOV 07:52 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83395)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi Randy--I have a Disto SCII with a hard drive interface. <Phil>

-*-

83425 27-NOV 13:14 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83417)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: PHILSCHERER

Oh, okay. We need the whole picture here. Is this a SCSI drive, or do you
have the magic Adaptec board? What sort of connector is on the back of the
drive?

  Randy

-*-

83431 27-NOV 18:39 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83425)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi Randy--I'm pretty sure the st225 is an MFM. It has the same hookup
as a Rodime MFM drive that I run now with a WD1002 controller. <Phil>

-*-

83435 27-NOV 21:16 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83431)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: PHILSCHERER

Ah, so you have an adapter board to convert the st506/412 (MFM) drive to
SCSI? If thats the case, I'd start with the descriptor for the Rodime, and
change the cyl, heads (sides), and the drive number to match the Seagate.
See what happens.

   Randy

-*-

83449 28-NOV 09:27 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83435)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi Randy--I think somethings going over my head. What I'm running now is
a Disto SCII with hard drive interface using a SASI driver and a WD1002
controller and  RODIME MFM 22meg drive. I dont have any SCSI in my system.
The st225 looks like it has the same hookup as the Rodime and I'm assuming
it also is MFM. <Phil>

-*-

83455 28-NOV 13:14 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83449)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: PHILSCHERER

I was thinking later Disto with the SCSI. Everything said stil applies to
your SASI system; just change teh C to an A in a few places. :>

  Randy

-*-

83474 28-NOV 18:31 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83455)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RANDYKWILSON

Thanks for the reply Randy--BTW SC looks good! <Phil>

-*-

83503 28-NOV 22:19 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83449)
     From: KSCALES      To: PHILSCHERER

 > Hi Randy--I think somethings going over my head. What I'm running now is
 > a Disto SCII with hard drive interface using a SASI driver and a WD1002
 > controller and  RODIME MFM 22meg drive. I dont have any SCSI in my
 > system. The st225 looks like it has the same hookup as the Rodime and I'm
 > assuming it also is MFM. <Phil>

Hi, Phil -

Could we step back a little;  I went back as far as I could in this thread,
but wasn't able to find a description of your original problem.

Are you trying to add a second (i.e. ST225) drive to your Disto SASI
system, in addition to your Rodime?  What all have you done?  Which
version of CCHDisk are you using (original, or the patched version
using cchdsasi.ar?  What do your descriptors (both of them) look like?
What are the drive-select strappings set for on the ST225?  Do you have
a straight-through 34-pin cable, or does it have the IBMoid twist in it?
(You don't want the twist.)

Hopefully, with enough info, we will be able to help out.

Cheers... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83530 29-NOV 18:22 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83503)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: KSCALES

Hi Ken--I want to determine if this st225 is operable. I wasn't planning
to chain it although I might replace the Rodime because the st225 is half
height. The cchdisk I'm using came from an archive that had three st225
descriptors in it. I installed the driver but didn't use the descriptors
because I didn't have an st225. My cable is straight in with no twist.
<Phil>

-*-

83545 29-NOV 22:29 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83530)
     From: KSCALES      To: PHILSCHERER

Hi, Phil -
 > Hi Ken--I want to determine if this st225 is operable. I wasn't planning
 > to chain it although I might replace the Rodime because the st225 is half
 > height. The cchdisk I'm using came from an archive that had three st225
 > descriptors in it. I installed the driver but didn't use the descriptors
 > because I didn't have an st225. My cable is straight in with no twist.

That archive was probably my cchdsasi patch file.  The descriptors should
be correct for your drive, when used with the WD-1002-SHD or WD-1002-TAN
(if I remember correctly) SASI interfaces.

Good luck.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83585 30-NOV 11:50 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83449)
     From: CBJ          To: PHILSCHERER

Phil,
     You have an MFM drive and you can use it just fine on the SASI board you
have hooked to that RODIME.  Make sure you set the jumpers on the Seagate so it
is Drive 1 as opposed to drive 0.  Use the stock descriptor from the Disto disk
since it is set up for a Seagate ST225.  Everything should work just fine.
-Carl..

-*-

83589 30-NOV 19:16 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83545)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: KSCALES

Hi Ken--I made a new boot disk and used the descriptors. At this point
when I fire up hdformat, it gets to the point where it starts the format
but the drive light comes on and the drive runs but that's it. No step
sounds or anything. <Phil>

-*-

83590 30-NOV 19:18 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83585)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: CBJ

Hi Carl--Thanks for the reply--I'm trying to run it as /H0 but it just
spins and  doesn't seem to procede with the format. <Phil>

-*-

83613 30-NOV 22:52 General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83589)
     From: KSCALES      To: PHILSCHERER

 > Hi Ken--I made a new boot disk and used the descriptors. At this point
 > when I fire up hdformat, it gets to the point where it starts the format
 > but the drive light comes on and the drive runs but that's it. No step
 > sounds or anything. <Phil>

Phil, one thought: if all of the cables are known to be good, then it
might be worth looking at the 12V power supply.  It may not be able to
drive the stepper.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83643 1-DEC 18:31  General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83613)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: KSCALES

Hi Ken--I'm using a 150W switching supply with only the HD connected.
<Phil>

-*-

83665 2-DEC 00:16  General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83643)
     From: KSCALES      To: PHILSCHERER

 > Hi Ken--I'm using a 150W switching supply with only the HD connected.
 > <Phil>

Hi again, Phil -

Hmmm... that might it.  It is not uncommon for a switching
supply to require more of a load than a single hard drive, in order
for the supply to come up to full power.  For example, another local user
found he needed to connect at least one floppy in addition to his ST238
to make his power supply work.  Others have attached load resistors to
accomplish the same purpose, but I would prefer to see the heat serving
a useful purpose <g>.

Try connecting another drive and see if this helps.

Cheers... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83674 2-DEC 19:27  General Information
     RE: Hard drive (Re: Msg 83665)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: KSCALES

Hi Ken -- I tried it with the Rodime still running also but not connected
to the data cable. No cigar. I guess maybe it's looking for the round file.
<Phil>

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83388 26-NOV 19:29 Telecom (6809)
     RiBBS
     From: DENNYWRIGHT  To: ALL

Can anyone tell me what might cause an error 211 in 'connect'. I have Ribbs
2.10and I am having trouble setting it up.
I have created all the necessary text files and stuff. But when I go to start
up Ribbs according to the docs,
gain.
Can anybody tell me what may be wrong? I checked the crc of the connect module
and it's good.

-*-

83456 28-NOV 13:17 Telecom (6809)
     RE: RiBBS (Re: Msg 83388)
     From: STEWARD      To: DENNYWRIGHT

  A common cause for that error is that you want to make sure that you don't
have an extra carriage return at the end of the .ctl  files.
Meaning, make sure the file ends on the same line as the last entry.  Also, you
you create the log file, a good way to create that would be to
do a echo date >ribbs.log

Hope this helps


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83409 27-NOV 05:05 Telecom (6809)
     WizPro
     From: ISC          To: ALL

I have downloaded most of the files related to WizPro, and, yet, I cannot
get it to work.  The main documentation seems to be missing.  Can anyone
help?

Thanks.

Bill

-*-

83418 27-NOV 08:01 Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83409)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: ISC

Hi Bill--I used to use Wizpro and I think I have everything. What do you need?
BTW I think I remember that you need to have a Wizpro driver or descriptor in
your boot. Been a long time and I dont remember exactly. <Phil>

-*-

83419 27-NOV 10:48 Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83418)
     From: REVWCP       To: PHILSCHERER

Phil, I saw you response to Bill (ISC) and you are correct.  One of the
problems with WIZ and/or WizPro was the need to make up a special boot
disk.  ---Br. Jeremy

-*-

83514 29-NOV 00:27 Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83418)
     From: ISC          To: PHILSCHERER

Phil,

I need to make a new bootdisk for Wizpro again.  If it doesn't work I'll
be back.  Thanks for being there.

Bill

-*-

83689 2-DEC 23:14  Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83409)
     From: THETAURUS    To: ISC

        Bill, I believe the main documentation is in it's own seperate
   archive<available here in the telecom database>. I tried setting up
   Wizpro previously, and it just wasn't worth the effort. Looked great,
   but I couldn't keep it up too long and never got it too work. I do
   remember having to download the main doc seperately.
        >Chris<

-*-

83697 3-DEC 03:07  Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83689)
     From: ISC          To: THETAURUS (NR)

Chris,

Thanks for the info about Wizpro.  I have been using Supercomm a lot and I
don't mind it, I just was curious about WizPro because the guy who wrote it
also wrote a book about OS9, and he brags a lot about WizPro in his book.
I may try it again later, but I now have another problem related to hardware.
I just bought 2 80 track diskette units and I can't get them to work as /d0.
I had the jumpers set for /d0, but they give I/O errors in DECB and will not
read OS9 diskettes as /d0.  They work OK as /d1.  Do you know what else I
have to do to configure them as /d0?  When I try them, they just continuously
seek when they are connected as /d0.  Thanks for the info again.

Bill

-*-

83732 4-DEC 00:21  Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83697)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: ISC

sounds like you need to reconfig the /d0 Discriptor.......
if those are 96tpi drives.....80 track double sided!
I ran into a weird problem with those drives! I got real confused....
I have a 80 track double sided on mine as /d2 and use a 80trk 3.5" as /D0
thinking I have a Quad drive<96tpi> I setup the Dmode as 96tpi and ran a test
,after doing that the drive would verify ok,and then crash as one tried to read
it later,on reading Dmode on would find the tpi BACK to 48tpi!<shee>
formating it at 48tpi worked fine!<strange>.....The dmode I have came with
the disto H/Drive board....and it allows one to change tpi....others do not!
at lest the ORG one don,t!    change the tracks and stuff on it and it should
sort out the problem!

Dennis

-*-

83740 4-DEC 04:18  Telecom (6809)
     RE: WizPro (Re: Msg 83732)
     From: ISC          To: COCOKIWI (NR)

Dennis,

Thanks one more time.  I will try Dmoding the drives as you suggest and get
back.

Bill

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83414 27-NOV 05:59 Programmers Den
     Annoying exit on EOF
     From: TELENUT      To: ALL


   Please help! I am wrighting several applications that, in order to be as
versitile as possible must be started and use input from a procedure file. I
have run into one very annoying problem. After the program (executed by a
procedure file) finishes tasks in the procedure file (the same one) reaching
the end of the procedure file, it exits with an EOF error #000:211.

   The procdure file looks like this:

launch
buttonone
yes
buttontwo
yes
buttonthree
yes
buttonfour
no
         (end of file)

      The util sets up four buttons this way and then waits for a button to be
pressed. When it reached the "no" it enters wait mode and then that annoying
EOF breaks the program and returns to the shell. I have tried changing shell
options to stop it from exiting on EOF but I haven't tried changing tmode
settings. Funny, seems I solved this problem before but I don't remember.

      The actual "launch" program is written in MW BASIC(09) on an MM/1. I am
using TSMON.

      BTW, I have thought about using option support but there are utils that
wouldn't be as flexable.


    Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

  Dave

-*-

83426 27-NOV 14:25 General Information
     4 Meg Memory Hack
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: ALL

Attention All MM/1 Owners:

 Minimum allocation size:       0.25 K-bytes
 Number of memory segments:   6
 Total RAM at startup:       9140.25 K-bytes
 Current total free RAM:     8789.25 K-bytes

 Free memory map:

    Segment Address         Size of Segment
   -----------------   --------------------------
       $4E00           $200           0.50 K-bytes
       $24C00          $200           0.50 K-bytes
       $2AC00          $7BA000     7912.00 K-bytes
       $7F2C00         $500           1.25 K-bytes
       $7F3700         $500           1.25 K-bytes
       $801400         $DA700       873.75 K-bytes


This is the output of mfree after completeing the 4 Meg Memory Hack on
an MM/1.  Notice the 8 Meg of free RAM! You too can have this.

There are two ways to get the hack.  Ask me and I'll send you the
details so you can do it yourself.  However, be cautioned that this is
not a pretty hack, nor is it easy to do.  You'll need to have a good
amount of experience in soldering, cutting traces, pulling pins up on
already soldered in chips, piggybacking chips, and running tiny wires
around on the board.  If you have never done something like this, I
wouldn't attempt it yourself.  You can do permanent and fatal damage to
the I/O board.

The other method is to let me do it for you.  For a $50 charge, I'll
perform the hack, test it, and make a new init module for you.  I'll
also guarantee my work for a year (the hack only).  All you need to do
is send me your I/O board.  If you want me to include the 4 Meg SIMMs,
let me know.  I haven't priced them lately, but I'm sure I can get some
at a reasonable price for you.  I should be able to do the hack and get
your board back within 2 weeks.

This would make a great Christman present to yourself.  If anyone is
interested, let me know via email.

 Mark Griffith
 Dirt Cheap Computer Stuff Co.
   "Cheap, But Not Trash"

 (Uploaded with InfoXpress Ver. 1.01)

-*-

83678 2-DEC 21:14  General Information
     RE: 4 Meg Memory Hack (Re: Msg 83426)
     From: HAWKSOFT     To: MARKGRIFFITH

PLEASE send more info (4 meg hack)
:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> Chris <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-:

-*-

83680 2-DEC 21:27  General Information
     RE: 4 Meg Memory Hack (Re: Msg 83678)
     From: MITHELEN     To: HAWKSOFT

Chris, Mark Sent me this info already, and with his permission, I will make
copies to distribute to MM/1 owners at the next Glenside meeting...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83427 27-NOV 14:42 Programmers Den
     C help
     From: MRGOOD       To: ALL

HELP!

I'm trying to write a program using Mark Griffith's skel.c framework.

Actually, I had a working version using the Coco skel.c.

My current problem is with menus.  I have 3 menus defined.  If I click
on a menu, it drops down and I can select items from that menu with no
problem.  HOWEVER, if I decide to move the mouse off the menu, the
program goes and hangs in a portion of the program where I create
an overlay window.  I'm about to pull out my remaining hair on this
one.

I've stayed fairly faithful to Mark's original framework.  I'm open
to ideas, suggestions, experience, bug reports, etc.


Thanks in advance.

Hugo

-*-

83430 27-NOV 17:19 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83427)
     From: BANANAMAN    To: MRGOOD

It sounds like something is getting stomped on when you pull down the
menu.  Happens to me whenever I go tinkering with my menus, too.  Just make
sure that element that defines the width in characters of the menu is
one greater than the actual length of the menu.  If you need some more
examples, I can E-Mail you some of mine.
  --Andy

-*-

83447 28-NOV 07:12 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83427)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MRGOOD

Hugo,

 > I've stayed fairly faithful to Mark's original framework.  I'm open
 > to ideas, suggestions, experience, bug reports, etc.

Code fragments would really help.  There is no way to easily tell what
is going on without seeing what you are doing.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83458 28-NOV 13:19 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83430)
     From: MRGOOD       To: BANANAMAN

I've made sure the menu width is one greater than the
widest entry, but the problem persists.

Hugo

-*-

83459 28-NOV 13:22 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83447)
     From: MRGOOD       To: MARKGRIFFITH

I may just upload the whole thing into the databases here.  Code
fragments may end up being too big for forum messages.

Hugo

-*-

83581 30-NOV 07:36 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83459)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MRGOOD

Hugo,

 > I may just upload the whole thing into the databases here.  Code
 > fragments may end up being too big for forum messages.

You can just put up the function or a part of the function that is
causing the problem.  Obviously, whatever is happening after you select
the menu item is the problem.  All we would need to see is that function.
No need to upload the entire program.

The point is, if you want people to help you with your efforts, you should
make it as easy as possible for them.


                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83605 30-NOV 21:00 Programmers Den
     RE: C help (Re: Msg 83581)
     From: MRGOOD       To: MARKGRIFFITH

Hi Mark,

I found the problem the next day.  Sometimes all it takes is
some rest and time away from the computer to realize what's
going on.  Basically, I wasn't doing things in thr right order.
Funny the program worked on the Coco though.

Hugo

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83434 27-NOV 20:05 Telecom (6809)
     BBS
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: ALL

does anyone know of a bbs system for OS-9 level 2, that can run on 2 720k
drives? preferrably a "small" bbs, I dont need any real fancy stuff, I
just want an easy way to have a few friends of mine (5 of em) to be able
to send mail back and forth to each other and up/download files...I would
like to use StG, but if I download it on 1 drive, I cant un-ar it, as I
am sure it takes more than 360k..my 20meg HD is FILLED no more room,
practically..and I would like to just have my 720k and 360k drives for the
BBS, I am planning on hooking up a 2nd 720 in a few days or so..but am still
wondering about BBS software..btw, does ANY coco BBS system support multiable
terminal types? like ANSI,VT100,and WYSE 50?? actually, I just need support
for wyse and vt100...

                                                            -* Mike

-*-

83441 28-NOV 02:04 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83434)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ILLUSIONIST

You can set up a StG system on on 2 720K drived, no problem.. I think someone
even did it with 2 360k drives... Try extracting part of the files to the
second drive, and then, when that is full, extract the rest... A lot of the
stuff in the archive is example menus, help files, and extra programs that
you won't need if you just want a simple E-Mail system for your friends.
StG V3 supports ANSI, OS-9 Level 2, and Plain Text modes with its menuing
program... StG V4 (not available yet) supports all terminal types, through
Termcap.
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 Please, Send Money! My hard drive crashed, and I'm too broke to get a new one.

-*-

83453 28-NOV 11:51 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83441)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: MITHELEN

Ok, I will give it a shot..when I get a new HD set up, I might run a "real"
bbs..and put it on StGNet..thanks for the info..

-* Mike

-*-

83467 28-NOV 14:46 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83434)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: ILLUSIONIST

my real early version of apbbs was run off two 360k disk drives. It may
still be available here (the 2.XX version)


-*-

83469 28-NOV 15:43 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83441)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: MITHELEN

Nope, I downloaded the .ar file for StG, I cant use it on the floppies...
inside the .ar file is a mess of .LZH files, all the cmds are in 1 .LZH
and take up about 500k ...so I cant get the lzh file out of the .ar to
unlzh..because the entire .ar is on a 720k disk, and I only have the 1 360k
floppy for space to unar..unless I clear off around 700k or so off my HD
but I really dont want to do that just to extract something..to bad the cmds
are bundled up like on the demo version of StG..in 2 parts..oh well..
I guess I will have to wait till I get another 720k drive..probably around
4 weeks..by the time it actually gets here (after I order 1)..

I guess I will have to take a look at AcBBS, or RIBBS..or just roll my own
until I can get StG to run..the MENU systems in the DB's would work for a
menu, and the OS-9 mail system would work nice for the mail..all I would
have to do is make a quick basic09 program to "chain" them all together
along with calls to sz/rz and bingo..my goal would be accomplised..of course
running StG would be MUCH nicer..oh well..actually, come to think of it
what exactly doesnt work with the demo release? is is the login command?
if so, could someone send me the corrected modules (email or on disk)
and I will just use the demo release..

                                 -* Mike

-*-

83501 28-NOV 22:12 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83469)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ILLUSIONIST

Ok... Tell ya what... I download the StG Demo archive this week, and redo
the archive so you can ectract on 360k drives... The "original" demo version
archive WAS set up better, then a second Demo releasearchive was done, and
the archives were not done by me, so they wern't set up as nice 8-)

The only thing "missing" from the demo version is network registration.
It is fully functional as a non-networking bbs. When you pay the registration
fee, you submit a system node name for your system, and you get a get a network
"password" for your system.
--
Paul

-*-

83509 28-NOV 23:15 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83501)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: MITHELEN

No, I can extract the demo version just fine, but when I run it, (try and
change passwords is what I think "nailed me") the system hung..
I heard somewhere that the password command was bad or some such thing..
I forget, but I can extract, just cant run it too well.. :(

                                                -* Mike

-*-

83510 28-NOV 23:37 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83509)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ILLUSIONIST

Oh.. Hmm... you mean if you try to set a users password it hangs? hmm.. you
might be right about a bad copy of the password command in the archive... I
think I recall Brian Schubring having the same trouble... I'll mail you a copy
of the "password" command from Carls system when I get home tonight, and you
can try that when you get a chance, and see if that fixes the problem... if it
does, I'll post a correction to the database...
--
Paul

-*-

83531 29-NOV 18:54 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83510)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: MITHELEN

ok thanks, I have wanted to set up StG for awhile, and give it a test run
get familar with it, and then set up a full time board, and now, with
my friends and I needing easy file transfer and email, seems like an
ideal time..I will be keeping an eye out for the mail..

                                               -* Mike

-*-

83564 30-NOV 01:14 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83501)
     From: WOLFDEN      To: MITHELEN

Paul, I'm a couple of days behind in the forum (This is Jim Vestal by the way
using Tim Mohr's Delphi account).

I'm in the midst of making new archives for StG Version 3... I found several
updates to the other archives and I will working on some additional
docs.  I should be done this week and have I'll upload it for submission.
The new archives will be compressed into smaller files.

You don't have to bother with downloading it if you don't won't to.

I'll send a copy to Mike too.

Jim

-*-

83565 30-NOV 01:16 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83509)
     From: WOLFDEN      To: ILLUSIONIST

Mike, I'll send you an updated archives of the StG package.  I'm also
working on updateing some of the docs... feel free to leave me mail
(this is Jim Vestal my the way) on this account or call me anytime.

See the message I just sent Paul.

Jim

-*-

83587 30-NOV 12:10 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83434)
     From: CBJ          To: ILLUSIONIST

Mike,
     Talk to Mithelen.  He can give you the straight dope on StG.  It is the
software I use.  What kind of HD setup do you have?  If you decide to go with
StG I may be willing to donate a small MfM hard drive to you to get you in the
Net.  There would be strings attached though....You have to net for 6 months.
Leave me E-Mail if you are interested in getting the small Hard drive and StG
but talk to Paul (mithelen) first.
 Carl

-*-

83588 30-NOV 12:12 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83469)
     From: CBJ          To: ILLUSIONIST

I'm sure Paul & I can get you set up with StG.  Give us a day or two after
replying to us if you are still interested.
 Carl

-*-

83594 30-NOV 19:39 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83565)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: WOLFDEN

Thanks! I just placed an order for a new 720k drive, I am still playing
with ideas on a new HD (If I want to get a bigger/add another MFM, or just
go SCSI), SCSI is looking nice though..so, I might go for it..

btw, we will have a new OS-9/6809 user soon, (about a month) a friend
has done what may be the ultimate upgrade (with th exception of buying a Cray)
he is moving from an Apple II, to a coco under OS-9. He saw my coco, and
decided to go for it, when he gets an HD set up, and gets a handle on OS-9
he wants to run a BBS (and of course I will recommend StG)...

So, between my set eventually going online as a BBS, and his, we should see
2 more CoCo BBS's soon, both running StG!!

~              -* Mike

-*-

83596 30-NOV 19:42 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83587)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: CBJ

Thanks for the offer, I have a B&B setup, I am tinkering with the idea of
going SCSI though..if I do decide to stick with MFM, I will definatly consider
the offer..thanks again...

                                                       -* Mike

-*-

83607 30-NOV 21:29 Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83564)
     From: MITHELEN     To: WOLFDEN

Thanks Jim... A sugestion for the archives.. use lha 2.11b... and don't
do archives in archives... also... try to seperate the commands into
two archives. one containing the bare minimal commands to get a simple
system running with Mail, the oither containing all the nice little
extra programs, and the News utils... That way, if someone just
wants to get a E-Mail system up and running, then all they need to download
is the basic command archive... I don't know if you ever saw the way I
originally did the first Shareware arcvhie's, but it was pretty much done
this way... (I'll look to see if I can find the original archive, or at least
the makefile I used to create the archives)
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83635 1-DEC 05:20  Telecom (6809)
     RE: BBS (Re: Msg 83594)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: ILLUSIONIST

Ive swung a few os9 users in, one is an ex-atari ST user. I found it hard to
believe the ST was supported WORSE then the CoCo. Fortuntly I switched
to ribbs a few months back to get the coco/os9 echos. It has helped out
alot.

Mike

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83439 27-NOV 23:56 System Modules (6809)
     st-225
     From: RICHKOTTKE   To: RANDYKWILSON


Randy,
   According to my Seagate Installer's manual, the ST-225 is a MFM drive with
4 heads, 615 tracks and a step pulse of 5-200 microseconds.  You need to set
up the driver so it write precompensates tracks 300-614.  It DOES NOT have
an auto-park feature, so you should remember to park it before powerdown.
If you need to know anything else drop me some e-mail.
   -Rich

-*-

83440 27-NOV 23:56 System Modules (6809)
     Hard drives
     From: RICHKOTTKE   To: ALL


Does anyone know if it's ok to run an RLL drive in MFM mode using an MFM
controller?

   -Rich

-*-

83442 28-NOV 02:09 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Hard drives (Re: Msg 83440)
     From: MITHELEN     To: RICHKOTTKE

Re: RLLS drives as MFM...

Ya.. this is no problem... You should not do the reverse though.
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown


-*-

83468 28-NOV 14:48 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Hard drives (Re: Msg 83440)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: RICHKOTTKE

yes you can do that. I ran a ST238R as a 20 megger for years. The only
difference between the drive is the 238R was tested with the tighter format
(a ST238R is basically the same as a ST225, just cramming in more sectors
per track) Im using my Seagate ST238R as an example, but a real example.

I have done the opposite, ran into some problems down the road since a
MFM drive isn't tested to take an RLL format, its risky


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83452 28-NOV 11:24 General Information
     Using hdbackup
     From: LUCKYONE     To: MARKGRIFFITH


Hi,
for the first time I have decided to do a backup of my HD (I've heard it
is the thing to do.) and as I mentioned in my last message to you I
used MW's fsave and that didn't work. Today (11/21/93) I decided to use
hdbackup to get the job done. I enter the command line

  hdbackup -f -d /dd -o /f0

and everything seemed to be going well. I left my computer to do
something else and when I came back the computer was completely hung up.
After rebooting I did a listing of the backup.full.1 file in the log
directory. The listing was showing all of the files that had been backed up
when all of a sudden it started showing text from what looks like one
of the ix compuserve files. Any thoughts about this? Has anyone else
had this problem?

The last file saved was /dd/GAMES/SeaBattle and the next one is

Also the flopptical still had 53% space left on it. I checked /dd
with dcheck and the file structure is intact.

I hope this is enough info to give you an idea of the situation.

Thanks for any help you can give me.



   Howard Luckey
   delphi LUCKYONE
   CIS 74746,3207

       ********** By InfoXpress 1.01 of course! **********



-*-

83466 28-NOV 14:33 General Information
     RE: Using hdbackup (Re: Msg 83452)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: LUCKYONE

Howard,

Thanks so much for sending those pictures!  I'm mailing some out to you
very soon now.  It was a very pleasant surprise!  :)

 > hdbackup -f -d /dd -o /f0
 >
 > and everything seemed to be going well. I left my computer to do
 > something else and when I came back the computer was completely hung up.

I had this problem, too.  I think you have an old version of hdbackup.
I know the original version had a bug (memory allocation I believe) and
I think Mark reuploaded the program here so the Delphi version was
fixed, but not sure (Mark?).  I will email you the copy I have that
works.



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83580 30-NOV 07:36 General Information
     RE: Using hdbackup (Re: Msg 83452)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: LUCKYONE

Howard,

 > and everything seemed to be going well. I left my computer to do
 > something else and when I came back the computer was completely hung up.

As Joel as mentioned, there is a version with a memory allocation bug.
I can't remember if I uploaded the corrected version to Delphi or not.
If not, I'll do that.  In the mean time, I can send you binary mail with
the correct one.  It'll be in you mail box tomorrow or the next day.

Sorry for the trouble.



                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

83746 4-DEC 10:26  General Information
     RE: Using hdbackup (Re: Msg 83466)
     From: LUCKYONE     To: JOELHEGBERG (NR)

Joel, thanks for the help and the uploaded file.

Howard

-*-

83747 4-DEC 10:27  General Information
     RE: Using hdbackup (Re: Msg 83580)
     From: LUCKYONE     To: MARKGRIFFITH (NR)

Mark, thanks for the help and the uploaded file. I hope to backup my
hard drive soon.

Howard

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83463 28-NOV 14:12 Applications (6809)
     lha211b
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: VE3DAC

I have a problem you could relay to Gene about lha 2.11b, I will also
notify Wes Gale as the problem is that lha will stop in the middle of
execution when I try to archive something.  Here is th output:

 Creating archive : test.lzh

 ==> Freezing file.txt       oooooo

                                  ^ lha will STOP right here.
  The temporary file exists but it is not a "legal" lzh file.  ie. it seems
to lockup before it gets to the renameing portion of the program.
  The reason I am also going to tell Wes is that this only happens when
I'm booted up with NitrOS-9 v1.16.  LHA works fine with Nitro v1.15!
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

83561 30-NOV 00:32 Applications (6809)
     RE: lha211b (Re: Msg 83463)
     From: VE3DAC       To: WTHOMPSON

Well, finally someone else has the problem I do.  Like you I was going
fine til Nitro 1.16.  However when I mentioned it over on Fido,  one oth        
er
person said it was running fine on his system using 1.16.  It seemed I was
the only one.  Gene K.  is not running a 6309 so he can't be of much help
to us.  Please let Wes know that I have company with this problem.  I don't
think he saw my message about the problem, since that was when his board
was dowm.
     Gene is aware that I have a problem, but isn't too sure just what it
might be, perhaps when the  xlh  module is called.  I haven't used  LHA
on the Nitro'd computer, just on the BBS  which is still 6809, for awhile.
Gene is waiting for more detective work from me (and now you).
Merv

-*-

83684 2-DEC 22:29  Applications (6809)
     RE: lha211b (Re: Msg 83561)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: VE3DAC (NR)

I think the problem may be narrowed down to the v1.16 of RBF30.
BTW I was the person who "did't" have a problem with LHA and v1.16. :-)
At the time I was using the Tandy RBF that was nitro'd.  As soon as I
put the v1.16 RBF30 in my boot I started to have the problem with LHA!
So what I have been doing is using a v1.15 boot with the Nitro's Tandy
RBF when I use LHA.  I have been talking to Wes in e-mail and he will take
a look at it too.
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83464 28-NOV 14:22 Applications (6809)
     LHA 2.11b and Nitro
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: WESGALE

Wes,
  I am haveing problems with the lha archiver and Nitro v1.16.  I gave
details of the problem in message #83463.  Basically what is happening
is lha will lock up when executed under Nitro v1.16 but will work fine
with v1.15!  The differences between the 1.15 and 1.16 boot disks is:
CC3Go.nv116, CC3IO.nv116, RBF30.nv116.
  I'm pretty sure thats theonly differences between the 2 boots.
I don't have RBF30 in the v1.15 boot, I used the Tandy RBF when I 1st
got nitro and only recently patched rbf30 up to v1.16 nitro.  Let me know
if you need more info!
 Thanks,
 Wayne

ps.  I love NitrOS-9!

-*-

83489 28-NOV 21:28 Programmers Den
     Shanghai OS-9
     From: EARTHER      To: ALL

     Did anyone ever save the Shanghai cartridge to disk and run the
 game under RS-DOS?  For the last two weeks my other CoCo 3 has been
 dedicated to running Shanghai (the original cartridge game).  I've
 owned the game since it first came out (paid $34.95 I believe) and
 I'm just now getting around to playing the game.  It definately is
 addictive.  My other CoCo is busy with coding the game for OS-9.
     I can't wait to see the finished program so that I can yank that
 dang cartridge out of my other CoCo to get it OS-9ing again.  Anyway...
 I'm looking for some Oriental style artwork (public domain) to use
 as background artwork for Shanghai OS-9.  Does anyone know of a source?

 Shawn Driscoll


 Will a SONY FusionMan work with my CoCo?

-*-

83497 28-NOV 21:52 Programmers Den
     RE: Shanghai OS-9 (Re: Msg 83489)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: EARTHER

hmm, oriental artwork...hmmm..contact PUGDOG here on delphi, and ask him
about using the Japanese Gifs in the gallery of graphics, it is my understanding

that they can be used, with permission...they would make nice backgrounds
if I had a digitizer, I could digitze you some really nice artwork from
my home and from school...I will see if I can get you some though, I am sure
i can find SOME way to get you some nice oriental artwork..

-*-

83499 28-NOV 22:04 Programmers Den
     RE: Shanghai OS-9 (Re: Msg 83497)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EARTHER

There is a patch in the CoCo SIG database for transferring the Shanghai cart.
to disk. That's how I run it!

-*-

83681 2-DEC 21:33  Programmers Den
     RE: Shanghai OS-9 (Re: Msg 83489)
     From: HAWKSOFT     To: EARTHER

YES! someone did save out Shanghai and run it under RSdos. ME!!!! Just save
the rompak out to a file and delete the code that moves it to $2000 (I think).
Then setup the file to load at $2000 (or maybe $3000 whereever it was suppos-
ed to move to) and it runs great!!!

:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> Chris <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-: <-:


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83491 28-NOV 21:31 Programmers Den
     Kwindows controls
     From: MRGOOD       To: ALL

OK, I found my menu bug, now I have a general question. I'd like
to put resize, move, and back/front controls on my program.

The docs say I have to OR the WT_FWIN with the appropriate WC_xxx controls.

It's easy if you want just one, but how would I go about defining a framed
windows with several controls?

Hugo

-*-

83582 30-NOV 07:36 Programmers Den
     RE: Kwindows controls (Re: Msg 83491)
     From: MARKGRIFFITH To: MRGOOD

Hugo,

 > The docs say I have to OR the WT_FWIN with the appropriate WC_xxx
 > controls.
 > It's easy if you want just one, but how would I go about defining a
 > framed windows with several controls?

You OR them all together. Like 'FT_this | FT_that | FT_other'

                  /************* /\/\ark ************/

                  (uploaded with InfoXpress Ver 1.01)

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83507 28-NOV 22:40 General Information
     Genie
     From: CLTUCKER     To: JOELHEGBERG

Hi Joel. I see that you are a
Genie user. I am trying to connect to Genie. I dial Genie and get an answer
with two or more tones as an answer but my computer does not cut through.
Respond to Genie's answer signas. Any suggestions about this pblm.
I am using a COCO3 with a Disto 4IN1 disk drive. I use Ultimaterm.
Thks.:-)

-*-

83571 30-NOV 03:09 General Information
     RE: Genie (Re: Msg 83507)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: CLTUCKER

 > Hi Joel. I see that you are a
 > Genie user. I am trying to connect to Genie. I dial Genie and get an
 > answer with two or more tones as an answer but my computer does not cut
 > through. Respond to Genie's answer signas. Any suggestions about this
 > pblm. I am using a COCO3 with a Disto 4IN1 disk drive. I use Ultimaterm.

Do you get a CONNECT message from your modem or not?  Once you get a
connection, you just type 3 capital H's, "HHH" and your logon will be
requested.  Let me know if you still can't get on.  My modem port
settings for GEnie are 7-E-1.



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83508 28-NOV 23:01 General Information
     Hard Drive
     From: CLTUCKER     To: ALL

Does any one Know how or if a Sony SRD2040A hd can be made to work with
the COCO3. It is 40meg. Thks.:-)

-*-

83511 28-NOV 23:47 General Information
     Budget OSK machine
     From: DSRTFOX      To: ALL

Okay, I got stepped on before!

I'm planning on putting together some under $1000 OSK systems. These will be
COMPLETE systems with monitor, case, keyboard, hard drive, etc. And I mean
UNDER $1000... for around $950 (S&H and all included) for an assembled unit,
less for a component kit (you put in motherboard, etc., but ALL peices
included.... the assembled unit just not assembled). These aren't meant to
compete with the FHL and Delmar systems. They are BUDGET systems for those
who can't afford the expense of the faster, better FHL and Delmar systems.
I'm NOT in competition with them! If you're not sure if you want to go to
OSK or not, consider one of these budget, upgradeable units. If you ARE sure
you want OSK, then you might be better off with a System IV or KiX20. You
would have nearly as much in one of these after an upgrade to a similar
System IV anyway.

There will be a build-up of these systems in "the world of 68' micros" at about
the same time they would actually ship... around mid March or April at the
earliest. If you might be interested in such a unit, reply to ME, please!

UNIT CONSISTS OF:
10MHz 68000
1MB RAM
Case (four drive bays)
CGA monitor
20MB hard drive (MFM)
Keyboard
Power Supply
360K drive

This is the PROPOSED system at the moment. I'm actually leaning more toward a
monochrome monitor, since it has the necessary resolution to run G-windows.
This system IS a bit slow for G-windows, but would be suitable for program
development at least if the capability of running, even slow, is there.
I'll stress that this is purely a beginner/budget machine ONLY. A faster
version will not likely be available, but upgrade instructions will be readily
available. Magazine articles would run on assembly, setup of OSK, and some
upgrades.
If there isn't enough interest, it won't happen. I need to have committments
for a minimum of 5-10 units to make this a cost effective venture for all
involved.

-*-

83534 29-NOV 21:17 Programmers Den
     ReSizeWin()
     From: MRGOOD       To: ALL

OK, yet another question.  How does one go about using
the K-Windows ReSizeWin() function?  I've put it in my program but
it doesn't work right.  I can select the resize icon and reszie the
window.  However, the newly sized window does not appear.  Obviously,
I'm not doing something right.

Also, does ReSizeWin() check to see if the window is smaller
than the original _ss_wset call used to create the opening window?

If it doesn't, what should I do?

Hugo

-*-

83576 30-NOV 03:40 Programmers Den
     RE: ReSizeWin() (Re: Msg 83534)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: MRGOOD

 > OK, yet another question.  How does one go about using
 > the K-Windows ReSizeWin() function?  I've put it in my program but
 > it doesn't work right.  I can select the resize icon and reszie the
 > window.  However, the newly sized window does not appear.  Obviously,
 > I'm not doing something right.

Actually, you probably are... you just have to redraw the window.  :)
K-Windows does not do that for you.

 > Also, does ReSizeWin() check to see if the window is smaller
 > than the original _ss_wset call used to create the opening window?

I don't use a lot of the cgfx.l functions (write most of my own), so I
don't know what _ss_wset is, but I do know that ReSizeWin() doesn't do
any size checking.

 > If it doesn't, what should I do?

Use _gs_scsz() to determine the new screen size after resizing, and see
if the window is too small... if it is, you have to DWEnd and DWSet
again... or there are some other tricks of the trade.


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83604 30-NOV 20:56 Programmers Den
     RE: ReSizeWin() (Re: Msg 83576)
     From: MRGOOD       To: JOELHEGBERG

_ss_wset is the call for creating a window type based on
whatever structure you define.  So it sounds like I have to do
a _ss_wset after a ReSizeWin() call.

Hugo

-*-

83610 30-NOV 21:55 Programmers Den
     RE: ReSizeWin() (Re: Msg 83576)
     From: MRGOOD       To: JOELHEGBERG

I could use some help with this stuff!

I'd like to take care of the case where the user makes the new
window too small.  Obviously, I have to make it bigger.  I'd
like to keep the upper lefthand corner in the same spot.

1. How do I find the coordinates of the current window (in
   char positions)?

2. If I DWEnd, doesn't the screen disappear if that was the last
   window on the screen? If yes, is there a way to "hold" on to the
   screen until I can DWSet a new window?

Playing with this stuff is kinda neat.  Too bad I'm not doing
this for profit   :-)

Hugo

-*-

83634 1-DEC 04:51  Programmers Den
     RE: ReSizeWin() (Re: Msg 83610)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: MRGOOD

Hugo,

 > 1. How do I find the coordinates of the current window (in
 > char positions)?

You have to use the _gs_winfo() call, and take the pixel values and
divide them by 8 to get the char position values.  K-Windows only places
screen on char pos. boundaries, so these are guaranteed to have no
remainders.

 > 2. If I DWEnd, doesn't the screen disappear if that was the last
 > window on the screen? If yes, is there a way to "hold" on to the
 > screen until I can DWSet a new window?

Ok, this is a 10,000 question.  The answer is there's a trick... You can
actually forget about sending a DWEnd() call to the window, and simply
send a new DWSet() call using window type $fe and all the usual
parameters you have got from the _gs_winfo() call to keep the window in
the same spot.  But, there's a problem, since there's an implied DWEnd()
in sending a new DWSet to an existing window.

Now, the reason why you dare not send the DWEnd() is, as you mentioned,
the screen vanishes and the new window will appear on another screen,
rather than the one the user was originally on.  The problem with not
sending it, is the system can die, or get messed up since when K-Windows
sees the DWSet call taking place on an existing window, it performs a
DWEnd, but neglects to keep the rest of the DWSet display string
preserved, so bad things happen.

A strange thing, though.  Although I proved that the correct display
codes were being sent (by redirecing program output to a disk file, then
DUMPing its contents), the problem existed, yet when I used the program
'display' to send the EXACT same sequence of codes to an existing
window, it worked!!  So, what is the difference?  'Display' sends the
bytes one at a time... a separate write() call for each byte.  DWSet()
cgfx.l library call sends all bytes at once, and when the implied
DWEnd() occurs, K-Windows forgets about the other bytes.  Soooooooooo...
just write your own routine to send out the bytes one at a time.
Here's what I use:

resize(xloc,yloc,xsiz,ysiz)
int xloc,yloc,xsiz,ysiz;
{
    int e;
    char temp_buff[13];

    temp_buff[0]=0x1b;
    temp_buff[1]=0x20;  /* DWSet */
    temp_buff[2]=0xfe;  /* Screen type $fe */
    temp_buff[3]=(char)xloc;
    temp_buff[4]=(char)yloc;
    temp_buff[5]=(char)xsiz;
    temp_buff[6]=(char)ysiz;
    temp_buff[7]=0x0f;
    temp_buff[8]=0x0e;
    temp_buff[9]=0x00;
    temp_buff[10]=0x1b;  /* Select call */
    temp_buff[11]=0x21;
    temp_buff[12]=0x00;
    for(e=0;e<13;e++) write(path,&temp_buff[e],1);
    Select(0);          /* Regain control of keyboard and mouse */
}

Hope that helps! It should...  it's one of the _BIG_ secrets of
K-Windows developers...  just don't write any programs that are better
than mine, and I'll rest easier...  <grin>



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83641 1-DEC 08:41  Programmers Den
     RE: ReSizeWin() (Re: Msg 83634)
     From: MRGOOD       To: JOELHEGBERG

Thanks very much for the code Joel.  All I'm doing is porting the old
UG Finance program to K-windows.  I think Dick White was the author.

Hugo

P.S. - Actually, thanks for publicly releasing the BIG secret on
    resizing windows  :-)


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83542 29-NOV 22:21 General Information
     Conect
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: ALL

Has anyone heard from or been able to get a hold of Rick Ulland?  I have
tried E-mail and calling him, his answering machine doesn't even pick up
anymore.
  I really need to get in touch with him.  Any help would be appreciated!.
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

83546 29-NOV 22:30 General Information
     RE: Conect (Re: Msg 83542)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: WTHOMPSON

Gee, I'm talking to him as I type. He said to watch your email box.

  Randy

-*-

83683 2-DEC 22:22  General Information
     RE: Conect (Re: Msg 83546)
     From: WTHOMPSON    To: RANDYKWILSON

I'll keep an eye on it. :-)
 Thanks,
 Wayne

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83558 29-NOV 23:32 General Information
     KiX 30 boot fail
     From: BRIANGOERS   To: ALL

Well I managed to mess up my hard drive.
 I had the CoCo 3 running as a terminal at 4800 baud on the KiX and changed
 back to a Televideo to read and edit some text files. The screen on the CoCo
 was not displaying the text properly, that why I switched them.
 I think I logout from the KiX but I am not positive now. I decided to change
 the terminal to 4800 also so I would not have to changed the setup when I
 put the CoCo back on it.

 I used a floppy disk to boot the system but it doesn't recognize the
 hard drive. So I am asking for any ideas on how to continue. Or should I just
 re-install the system.
 Below is what the startup screen looks like (Error #000:215 just continues
 none stop).

 OS-9/68030 System Bootstrap for UniQuad Euro-K 30
 Copyright 1991 Hazelwood Computer Systems
    RAM Size:  4 M     ROM Size:  8 K

 UniQuad EK30
 OS-9/68K V2.3
 Error #000:214         <-------File not accessible
 Sysgo can't chx to 'CMDS'
 Sysgo can't open 'startup' file
 Error #000:215         <-------Bad pathlist specified
 Error #000:215

 Brian Goers
 User group 6809 Vice President


-*-

83619 1-DEC 00:27  General Information
     RE: KiX 30 boot fail (Re: Msg 83558)
     From: FHOGG        To: BRIANGOERS

Brian,

It sounds like that floppy disk is bad. Do you have the original 1
of 3 OSK disks? That should boot ok. If not let me know and I'll
send you another bootable disk. Best bet would be to call me at work
while you are at the computer and maybe I can help.

Frank

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83601 30-NOV 20:10 System Modules (6809)
     Gshell
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: ALL

Does anyone have any idea why Gshell would hang during the "rollover" of the
menu bar? This never happened before, I just started setting up Gshell and
MV for my girlfriend when she uses my CoCo, and everything hangs, I am
using the STOCK tandy windint. and used the stock gshell also.????

I am stuck...

                                                                -** Mike

-*-

83608 30-NOV 21:31 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Gshell (Re: Msg 83601)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ILLUSIONIST

Mike, try it with a Edition 9 clock module. It may well be an interupt
problem.

    Randy

-*-

83660 1-DEC 23:14  System Modules (6809)
     RE: Gshell (Re: Msg 83608)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: RANDYKWILSON

I have the ed. 9 clock installed crc is (ccc89f) its the software clock..

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83602 30-NOV 20:19 General Information
     bad hard rive
     From: KEITHBAUER   To: ALL

I am wonderng if anybody has any ideas on what I could do with a damaged
hard drive. It is a Seagate ST157N 48 meg SCSI drive. It was running on my
MM/1 when one day I could no longer read anything or format. I have thought
about having it repaired but I am not sure where to send it or how much it
would cost. I do not want to spend too much on fixing it though. Right now it
is sitting on my shelf gathering dust.

Thanks
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Keith Bauer

 CIS     :71102,317
 Delphi  :keithbauer
 Internet:kbauer@pids.com

 Via InfoXpress/OSK ver 1.01                     How 'bout them Cowboys!
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


-*-

83611 30-NOV 22:11 General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83602)
     From: REVWCP       To: KEITHBAUER

Dear Keith:
Pick up a copy of Computer Shopper.  In the most recent issue, there must be
at least 5 or 6 companies that do hard drive repairs.  (They are all located
in California...Interesting new religions and hard driver repairers all seem
to come from California...)  In any case I think that some of the repair
prices start around $35.00.  I have an st-138n that I want to get repaired.

The bearing whine so bad that it drownes out the sound of a Dustbuster.

With all best wishes,
Brother Jeremy, CSJW

-*-

83637 1-DEC 05:24  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83602)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: KEITHBAUER

A drive that small probably isn't fixable. (you could buya  new one cheaper)
I have a Seagate ST138N with a bad logic board. If I can find another one
with dead heads or something, ill fix it myself. But I am not going to get
it fixed. not worth it.

Mike

-*-

83646 1-DEC 20:08  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83611)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: REVWCP

You have a bad ST-138N ?? I have one with a blown logic board, the heards
er... heads, platters and all mechanics are OK. if you ever decide to
get rid of it let me know! Unless you care to do a logic board transplant

Mike

-*-

83647 1-DEC 20:22  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83611)
     From: KEITHBAUER   To: REVWCP

Brother Jeremy,

 > Pick up a copy of Computer Shopper.  In the most recent issue, there must
 > be at least 5 or 6 companies that do hard drive repairs.  (They are all
 > located in California...Interesting new religions and hard driver
 > repairers all seem to come from California...)  In any case I think that
 > some of the repair prices start around $35.00.  I have an st-138n that I
 > want to get repaired.

I will get a copy and check it out. $35.00 to $50.00 would be reasonable.

thanks


 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Keith Bauer

 CIS     :71102,317
 Delphi  :keithbauer
 Internet:kbauer@pids.com

 Via InfoXpress/OSK ver 1.01                     How 'bout them Cowboys!
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


-*-

83648 1-DEC 20:23  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83637)
     From: KEITHBAUER   To: MIKE_GUZZI

Mike,

 > A drive that small probably isn't fixable. (you could buya  new one
 > cheaper) I have a Seagate ST138N with a bad logic board. If I can find
 > another one with dead heads or something, ill fix it myself. But I am not

Are you interested in mine? Maybe we can work out a trade. If you are
interested, Email me.

Thanks


 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Keith Bauer

 CIS     :71102,317
 Delphi  :keithbauer
 Internet:kbauer@pids.com

 Via InfoXpress/OSK ver 1.01                     How 'bout them Cowboys!
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


-*-

83653 1-DEC 21:03  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83611)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: REVWCP

Rev, you can put a dab of silicone lubricant on the bottom bearing ot hte hard
drive.. the one that's exposed. A white lubricating grease if you can get it in
there! The other possibility is that the bearing may not be whining at all. The
grounding strap t
hat touches the end of the drive shaft can resonate at a high frequency and
cause a whine. a dab of silicone caulking compound or gasket making compound
(RTV) will change the frequency this resonates at and dampen the whine to near
nothing.
Just a couple cheap things to try in your case...

-*-

83657 1-DEC 22:21  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83646)
     From: REVWCP       To: MIKE_GUZZI

I'll let you know. --Jeremy

-*-

83658 1-DEC 22:22  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83653)
     From: REVWCP       To: DSRTFOX

I will try it and let you know.  Of course some day I have to write up the
article of how I repaired the thing in the first place.  -Jeremy

-*-

83719 3-DEC 21:18  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83658)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: REVWCP

Please do! I'm planning a hard drive issue sometime next year, would be a
good one for it!

-*-

83744 4-DEC 07:02  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83648)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: KEITHBAUER (NR)

If you have the same exact drive (seagate ST138N) with something like
bad heads, motors, platters, as long as the logic board is ok.

yes im interested! What kind of trade are you looking for?


-*-

83745 4-DEC 07:06  General Information
     RE: bad hard rive (Re: Msg 83658)
     From: MIKE_GUZZI   To: REVWCP (NR)

If you are willing to do a board transplant, you can have my hard disk
I really don't need it now that I have a pair of 85 meggers. It is
confirmed the logic board on mine is fried (i reversed 5/12 volts)
The drive will spin up and access its head and auto-park. but any access
to the disk hangs it with the LED on.

Changing the board isn't easy. It appears to have some mylar connectors
if your willing to do such a thing, let me know.

Mike

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83603 30-NOV 20:54 General Information
     For SALE
     From: RCPOLK       To: ALL

HI!,
 Just a note to inform interested parties, that my ad for my COCO stuff, has
now been posted. In my sadness in making this listing, I negelected to price
the items, so I will accept what's fair (per previous ads asking prices).
 I also have numerous (original-no copies) software (rs-dos & os9). I also
have a home controller unit and rom-pack for the X-10 and some rom-packs
games. Let me know per mail (now on the PC database) of any inquires.
Thanks....RICH

-*-

83612 30-NOV 22:26 General Information
     UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000
     From: BOISY        To: ALL

I've been involved with Bob Billson's UUCP 4.2 upgrade (UUCP 5.1bb now)
for over a year.  With Bob finally ready to release it, I have ported it
to OSK (using termcap) and am still debugging it.  I'm sure there's a
demand for an OSK version, but how much demand is there for an OS-9000
version?  I know there are a few OS-9000 users here, so if you would
like to see it, let me know.

In addition to UUCP 4.2, I've ported PALM (Jeff Shepler's great package)
to OSK and added termcap functionality as well.  PALM is a great mail
reader, and it should be fairly easy to port to OS-9000 as well.

With regards to the Multi-Vue project, I am still awaiting source code
from the guardian, Kent Meyers.

-*-

83614 30-NOV 23:40 General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83612)
     From: EMTWO        To: BOISY

 Thats great Boisy. Just remember, many of us do not have Ultra-C, so we
would need 'complete' binarys.
        

-*-

83628 1-DEC 01:24  General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83612)
     From: MITHELEN     To: BOISY

I've also ported Elm v2.4 pl21 to OSK... I haven't released it yet publically
do to the fact that there wasn't a good (IMHO) UUCP package available for
OSK, and I had to do some hacks to Ricks UUCP 4.2 for OSK to get it to run.
When I get the new UUCP 5.1bb for OSK, I'll work on makeing sure Elm will
run with it, and then post it publically if there are no conflicts...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83633 1-DEC 04:45  General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83612)
     From: EDELMAR      To: BOISY


 Boisy,

 There is an immediate need for a good port of UUCP to OSK.  I'm interested.

 Re OS-9000 - I'd be interested in that, too.  But I don't think there is
 much of a market for it, yet.  However, if you can do the port to OS-9000,
 I think it'll be worthwhile helping to sell OS-9000.  It would be nice
 when talking to prospects about OS-9000 to not have to 'dance' when asked
 about GP software <g>.  We need more packages for OS-9000.

 Ed

-*-

83640 1-DEC 08:36  General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83612)
     From: MRGOOD       To: BOISY

Boisy,

I for one have been waiting for an OSK UUCP for almost a year now. I
can't wait till you release it!

Hugo

-*-

83644 1-DEC 18:40  General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83612)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: BOISY

Hi Boisy--We can use all the OS9000 programs we can get! <Phil>

-*-

83645 1-DEC 18:47  General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.1bb for OS-9000 (Re: Msg 83633)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: EDELMAR

Hi Ed--Better yet we need a complete VPC! <Phil>

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83630 1-DEC 03:28  OSK Applications
     <$1000 OSK Machine
     From: RICHKOTTKE   To: FHOGG


Frankm

  Right or wrong, I posted your message about converting CD-I players into
OSK boxes on the COCO echo on the internet.  It has caused quite a stir!
Including at least one dude from Microware itself.  I will e-mail the responses
directly to you as they come in; unless you already monitor the Internet COCO
echo,
   -Rich


-*-

83656 1-DEC 22:19  OSK Applications
     RE: <$1000 OSK Machine (Re: Msg 83630)
     From: FHOGG        To: RICHKOTTKE


 > Right or wrong, I posted your message about converting CD-I players into
 > OSK boxes on the COCO echo on the internet.  It has caused quite a stir!
 > Including at least one dude from Microware itself.  I will e-mail the
 > responses directly to you as they come in; unless you already monitor the
 > Internet COCO echo,

Rich,

Thanks for posting them. I am curious about those responces. I do not
monitor the COCO echo so I would like to see them.

Several things for everyone to remember.

 The coco is dead, no longer in production.

 No current OSK manuf. has made any inroads or sold any quanity in
the consumer market.

 If just a small percentage of CD-I owners converted their players
into computers it would likely create the largest single group of OSK
users ever.

 In order to have software developers create software for OSK we need
to show them large numbers of users. CD-I converted players are the
only product that I know of that could possibly do this.

I am going to spend a few hours over the next day or so rewriting my
proposal on this project. I will use the feedback I've received so far.

Frank


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83631 1-DEC 03:54  Telecom (6809)
     SZ problems
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ALL

    when doing a zmodem upload, SZ reports a "Security Violation" then ends.
This happens before the xfer even starts.  What's the DEal.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

83649 1-DEC 20:34  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83631)
     From: MITHELEN     To: JWILKERSON

Most likely you are giving SZ a pathlist, and the pathlist does not reside
in the current directory tree, or in the /dd/SPOOL/UUCPPUBLIC dir tree.

Does that make sence? This feature is to provoid safegards for BBS systems
that use SZ as a file transfer protocal... I think in previous versions of
SZ, I had it check the uid, and only restrict users other then the superuser,
and just forgot to add that to the new source...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83672 2-DEC 05:20  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83649)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: MITHELEN

Well, I tried uploading files to both a BBS and to my Delphi workspace with the
same results.  I'm afraid I do not fully understand your explanation.

          -- John

-*-

83679 2-DEC 21:22  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83672)
     From: MITHELEN     To: JWILKERSON

The files must be either in the current working directory, or a sub-directory
of the current working directory... futhermore... you can not referance
file names to be sent with "../" or "/dd"... This is a secureit feature
provoided
mostly for multi-user BBS systems...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83699 3-DEC 03:20  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83679)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: MITHELEN

   At that time, I belive the files I wanted to send were in A directory called
sent.

oops. The directory was called /h0/XFERS.  I'll play around 'till I find a
"safe"
directory.

          -- John

-*-

83705 3-DEC 13:30  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83699)
     From: MITHELEN     To: JWILKERSON

the simple solution is to make sure you "CHD /h0/XFERS" before you try to
run sz. (or, use the internal "change directory" command from the terminal
program you are using)
--

 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83710 3-DEC 19:39  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83705)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: MITHELEN

Paul, correct. And as a note to SuperComm users, RZ and SZ will "inherit"
what ever you set with SC's <alt>-D command as it's current data dir.

  Randy

-*-

83741 4-DEC 05:18  Telecom (6809)
     RE: SZ problems (Re: Msg 83705)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: MITHELEN (NR)

   I use SuperComm.  I have its default directory set to /h0/xfers, but I
wonder if os/9 itself sees that.  Typically I do set to that direstory, or my
WORK dir.  Still, in the cases I tried it, it is possible I was in a different
directory; especially since I keep 2 windows up at all times.  I'll try again
with my dirs set properly.... Thanks.

          -- John

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83632 1-DEC 03:57  Applications (6809)
     New lha
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ALL

     I does not work.  I go to unpack a file, and it accesses the file, and
lists
the filenames, but does not unpack the files.  I use the standard lha -x type
command.

    The docs are too confusing for me to even attempt the RTFM method of
learning about this.  It would be nice to see docs for the average joe, rather
than those written for engineers and such.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

83642 1-DEC 09:22  Applications (6809)
     RE: New lha (Re: Msg 83632)
     From: KENFLANAGAN  To: JWILKERSON

Did you happen to put XLH in your CMDS directory?  That's the part of LHA that
does the actual unpacking.

-*-

83671 2-DEC 05:17  Applications (6809)
     RE: New lha (Re: Msg 83642)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: KENFLANAGAN

Yes, XLH is there, with attributes set properly.

          -- John

-*-

83696 3-DEC 00:56  Applications (6809)
     RE: New lha (Re: Msg 83632)
     From: WOLFDEN      To: JWILKERSON

Try lha x filename.lzh instead of lha -x filename.lzh... I too am so used
to using - in front of command line options.... lha is great!

Jim

-*-

83700 3-DEC 03:22  Applications (6809)
     RE: New lha (Re: Msg 83696)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: WOLFDEN (NR)

That did it!  Works fine.  thanks for the tip.

Seeya
          -- John

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83662 1-DEC 23:43  Programmers Den
     .ar structure
     From: ESCHULMAN    To: ALL

I am interested in writing a clone of Ar 1.x for DOS or OS/2, preferably the
latter or even both.  I have some (mostly) C source for Ar.  However, I don't
C so it's of limited value (though I have figured out UNTC.C).  The DOS version
is to be written with Power Basic 3.0c, and the OS/2 version to be written with
CA-Realizer (which I don't have--yet).

Is there any documentation of the structure of a Ar 1.x file and the compression

and decompression algorithms?  Documentation a little more descriptive than C
source....

The final product will not be released to the public until and if I get
permission to do so.  And if cleared, it will be free.

I'd appreciate any help you can offer toward making this project a success.

Erich Schulman (KTN4CA)

-*-

83673 2-DEC 06:54  General Information
     Triple rooms at Holiday Inn Elgin?
     From: TELENUT      To: ALL


   Would anyone know if the Holiday Inn Elgin, the official site of CoCoFEST
"Chicago", has triple rooms, that's three single beds? I don't need fest
rates really just wheather one room can accomidate three.


   Thanks

  Dave

-*-

83685 2-DEC 22:39  Programmers Den
     OSK Print Spooler
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: ALL

How many OS-9/68k users out there use the Microware print spooler
supplied in the Programmer's Toolbox?  (The Toolbox comes on disk #4 of
the IMS distribution diskettes for MM/1 owners... I don't know, but am
very curious to find out, if the Programmer's Toolbox comes with other
OS-9/68k systems?)  I started using it today, and it works great!!  My
printer buffer is very small, and this is fantastic.  I've added support
for it in Write-Right! and I am very pleased how it works!  With the
spooler option active, Write-Right! takes about 3 seconds to format a
7-page document and another second to call the Microware spooler, and
then, with the document printing in the background, Write-Right! returns
to editing mode.  You can print multiple documents, which are held by
the print spooler until the printer is available.

The print spooler really is a powerhouse!  It has options for jobnames,
prints job header pages (with those really big ascii character fonts,
just like the university computer do), and have options for use with
networked OS-9 systems sharing a printer with a number of systems.  I'm
just surprised I haven't heard of anyone else using it yet, so thought
I'd see if anyone had been using it.  Man, Write-Right! flies with this
feature!  I'm happy!  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83707 3-DEC 19:25  Programmers Den
     RE: OSK Print Spooler (Re: Msg 83685)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: JOELHEGBERG

 > How many OS-9/68k users out there use the Microware print spooler
 > supplied in the Programmer's Toolbox?  (The Toolbox comes on disk #4 of
 > the IMS distribution diskettes for MM/1 owners... I don't know, but am
 > very curious to find out, if the Programmer's Toolbox comes with other
 > OS-9/68k systems?)  I started using it today, and it works great!!  My

I used the print spooler for a while when I first got my MM/1. For some
strange reason, I was sent two patch cables with connectors for both printer
devices, /p and /p1, so I have both devices in my bootlist. Unfortunately,
the driver we currently have cannot handle concurrent access to both devices.
Starting up a spooler for /p works fine. But when you try to start one
for /p1, the whole thing goes crazy, ultimately making spooling unusable.

As of right now, I only am using a single printer, but I like having a
couple of different kinds out there. Laser for high quality stuff and
dot matrix for cheap draft/working copies and program listings.

So, no, I am not currently using the print spooler, but yes, I have used
it and yes, it does work really neat!!!

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83698 3-DEC 03:12  General Information
     80 Track /d0
     From: ISC          To: ALL

I am having a problem in trying to use a TEAC 55F floppy drive as an 80
track /d0.  It works OK as /d1, but when I move the select jumper to /d0
and connect it as such, it gives I/O errors in DECB and continuously
seeks if I try an OS9 diskette.  It reads both 40 and 80 track floppies
fine as /d1.  What else am I missing?

Thanks in advance.

Bill

-*-

83731 3-DEC 21:51  General Information
     RE: 80 Track /d0 (Re: Msg 83698)
     From: KSCALES      To: ISC

Hi, Bill -

 > I am having a problem in trying to use a TEAC 55F floppy drive as an 80
 > track /d0.  It works OK as /d1, but when I move the select jumper to /d0
 > and connect it as such, it gives I/O errors in DECB and continuously
 > seeks if I try an OS9 diskette.

Which drive has your bus termination resistors?  Make sure when you move
the TEAC to become /d0, that you still have one (only one) drive active
on the system that has the termination resistors installed.

 ... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

83737 4-DEC 04:15  General Information
     RE: 80 Track /d0 (Re: Msg 83731)
     From: ISC          To: KSCALES (NR)

Ken,

I tried the terminators--no luck.  I can't read any OS9 or basic diskette
if both of the drives are 80 trackers.

Bill

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83701 3-DEC 05:06  General Information
     Review of Kix30
     From: BROWN80      To: DSRTFOX

I have a Kix30 and I would be glad to write a review of it.  Time has been
tight for me lately so it would take me 3-4 weeks to do the review justice.
If you would like for me to atempt it let me know.  Who knows, with the Aggies
leaving for the holidays, maybe I'll have more time for such projects.
                        John Brown

-*-

83703 3-DEC 07:38  General Information
     Conect's RS-232 Port
     From: KENFLANAGAN  To: ALL

Does anyone know if Conect has released their high speed RS-232 port yet?
A friend who is a dealer for USRobotics is letting me try out a 14.4K Sporster
FAX/Modem, and I'm seriously thinking of buying it.  The only thing is, right
now, I can only connect at a max of 4800 (true connect, not serial port).  I'm
going to check the download areas for anything that will make SACIA work a
little better.  Thanks.

-*-

83708 3-DEC 19:27  General Information
     RE: Conect's RS-232 Port (Re: Msg 83703)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: KENFLANAGAN

Ken, CoNect's CoCoIO board has met a few more problems than anticipated,
of course. It is being worked on, and hopefully will be out soon. In the
mean time, go grab SuperComm v2.2, and it's related files. 2.2 was done
specificly to do 9600 reliably. Oh, and if you haven't already, snarf Eddie's
Clock edition 9 upload. I found that some clock modules (in my case Disto)
ate up so much system time that serial was limited to 4800.


  Randy

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End of Thread.

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83704 3-DEC 10:36  General Information
     Basic 09 CHAIN command
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ALL

   I need to use the basic09 chain statement, however the manual is a bit
cryptic.

Here is what I wish to do.

I want to take a file and replace each letter in the file with a number.  This
essentially encrypts the file.  The program to do this is the CoCopro tools
program "fconvert"  I will be writing a B09 program that inputs the file name
of the file to encrypt.
here is what I want it to do

Input "file to encode"
Call Fconvert to replace "letter" with "letter" in "file to encrypt"
go back to b09 to get next letter in sequence, then return to fconvert
end program at end of alphabet.

Essentially, I want to automativally

oops automatically run fconvert 26 times (once for each letter of the
alphabet to process the file"  The filename must be passed each time, as
well as the letter of the alphabet to be converted

Syntax:  Fconvert (letter to change) (new letter) (file in which to look)
B09:  CHAIN Fconvert (letter) (new letter) (file)

(letter) and (newletter) will be the result of a loop, incrementing each pass.
(file) is the result of an input statement at the beginning of the file.

I will, of course, need to know also, how to chain back to the b09 file.

All in all, an explanation of how to use chain in this manner is all I need.


Any suggestions...

Thanks

          -- John

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83709 3-DEC 19:37  General Information
     RE: Basic 09 CHAIN command (Re: Msg 83704)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: JWILKERSON

John, I have a suggestion. Don't use CHAIN!!!! Chain causes thenew, called,
process to totally replace the current one (in this case runb/basic09). RunB
will be gone; no way to reenter in the middle of the loop.
 Instead, use the RUN command. This equates to a F$FORK and then a F$Wait
system call. When the called process dies (exits), control will be returned
to RunBright where it left off. Something like:
 dim param_string:STRING
 ...
 param_string="prog_name"+" "+old_char+" "+new_char+" "+file_name
 RUN SHELL(param_string)

 Note that thiscode fragment is not tested....  :>

    Randy

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83742 4-DEC 05:21  General Information
     RE: Basic 09 CHAIN command (Re: Msg 83709)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: RANDYKWILSON (NR)

   Not 10 mins after I posted this, I discovered chain.  But, I couldn't
figgure out the proper usage.  I'll follow your example here and see what
I can do.  Hopefully, with a little experience with b09 I can write a
totally self-contained text file encryption program.

Thanks.

          -- John

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End of Thread.

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83711 3-DEC 20:12  General Information
     Geni
     From: CLTUCKER     To: JOELHEGBERG

Hi Joel. Thks for the tip 7-E-1. I an using a COCO3 with Ultimaterm
comm Pgm. There's no provision for this in this pak. Which Comm Package
do you use for
Geni and Delphi.:-)

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83736 4-DEC 01:33  General Information
     RE: Geni (Re: Msg 83711)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: CLTUCKER (NR)

 > Hi Joel. Thks for the tip 7-E-1. I an using a COCO3 with Ultimaterm
 > comm Pgm. There's no provision for this in this pak. Which Comm Package
 > do you use for
 > Geni and Delphi.:-)

Well, I use OSTerm on my MM/1!  :)
But, for the CoCo under RS-DOS, I use UltimaTerm as well, and you should
be able to set the 7-E-1 up on it.  I think you just hit ALT-O for
options, then 'M' for modem parameters (recalling that from memory,
though).


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


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End of Thread.

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83715 3-DEC 21:01  General Information
     email signatures
     From: NIMITZ       To: ALL

Recently some one posted an E-mail note to me inquiring about a 68340 board.
I would like to send this person some information, but I can't.  He didn't sign
his message with his user name, and I extracted all mail and downloaded it,
thus losing his Delphi username.   Rick , please repost to me!  Thanks

        David M. GRaham
        BlackHawk Enterprises, Inc.


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83727 3-DEC 21:40  General Information
     RE: email signatures (Re: Msg 83715)
     From: MITHELEN     To: NIMITZ (NR)

David, next time you extract your mail for downloading. do a "EXT File.Ext"
instead of "EXT/NOH File.Ext"... This way you won't have to worry
about people not signing mail messages...
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

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End of Thread.

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83716 3-DEC 21:07  Telecom (6809)
     RiBBS/RS232 Pak
     From: DENNYWRIGHT  To: WESGALE (NR)

I have a copy of RiBBS v2.10 and a concerted modem pak I built using your
docs and 1488 and 1489 driver/reciever chips. The docs to ribbs say to
switch pins #6 and #8 on one end of the cable. I did this and set the
                rconfig file to look for an inverted cable. When I start RiBBS a
t the bottom
of the wait screen I see:

<- 93/12/03 20:00:41                Carrier Detected
ATH0
OK

Then after a minute it says no response from modem. Then it tries to log in
a user, shows the logo screen, then shows the waitmsg saying there's an event
scheduled, to plesase call back later and resets. I then get the above message
at the
wait screen again before it does the whole thing over again. I also cannot
execute
any of the options at the wait screen I should be able to.       How should I mo
dify
my cable to correct the problem?
If I switch the cable back to normal RiBBS works but users can't call in and
log on.
I can log in in local mode ok though.
Can you tell me what wires to swap?
Thanks and sorry about the choppines of this message. I'm new at this.

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83748 4-DEC 10:39  Games & Graphics
     shanghai OS-9(Re: Msg 83489)
     From: PHXKEN       To: EARTHER (NR)

I have an RS-DOS disk version broken by Bill somebody.
Farrell.Kenimer@f26.n114.z1.fidonet.org

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