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2 ************************* INSTALLED: 19 DEC 86 ************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
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18  ***********************************************************
19 
20 Let's see, in regard to right/wrong not being socially derived, or at least
21 that there are some absolutes to right an wrong. 
22 Well, I would like to believe that myself, but it is hard to do so the more
23 I study the matter. Oh I have firmly held believes, and I feel strongly 
24 that they are correct, that (at least most) of what I consider right and
25 wrong is best for both my own well being and the well being of the society
26 I live in. But I also recognize that there are other view points and what
27 I consider right or wrong may not be considered such in a different society.
28 The slavery issue as you pointed out is a case in point. For a particular
29 group it was not wrong. and in fact it was considered good, after all the 
30 life they were leading was much better than the one they had in africa 
31 (or china or whereever the particular group of slaves come from when 
32 being enslaved by another group) for them they thought they were doing
33 the right thing. Even in that group treating a slave badly was considered 
34 wrong. But let's turn to an even more revolting idea that our society
35 has inbeded in our minds, caniblism. It has been quite throughly ingrained
36 into the social consiousness that canibalism is bad. So much so that the
37 very thought of it is horrifying and repulsive to most people (even me).
38 And social concept is that if you even think that it might be acceptable
39 you're labeled as being mentally unstable. But if you think about it
40 logocally there is no basis in that sort of concept. At least as long
41 as you don't take another's life to perform the act, it even fits within
42 the strict moores of our society. Think of all the edible meat that
43 goes to waste everyday as people are pickled and barried or burned.
44 (I know it is hard to not be revulsed at the concept, but it is a totally
45 emotional feeling and is not based on logic.) In some countries up until
46 recent times (and I'm not too sure that it still isn't practiced) 
47 caniblism was being practiced. It was a very ritualistic form, and 
48 if you didn't take part you were considered to be strange or to have
49 something wrong with you. It was considered an insult to the individual
50 being eaten if you didn't partake. By eating him he became a part of
51 the tribe and thus lived forever in the life of the tribe itself. And
52 the tribe gained because it was belived that the knowledge, strength
53 and skills of who they eat was absobedinto the tribe making it stronger.
54 So was this right or wrong? By our standards it is a horible crime,
55 so revulsive as to hardly be thought of. And yet for them it was just
56 the opposite. It was considered wrong and revulsive to NOT do so.
57 And what about death? Is is right or wrong to try to keep someone 
58 alive as long as possible when they are dying of a terminal disease,
59 in great pain. It is impossible no matter what for them to even recover.
60 Is it wrong to continue to force them to live this way, draining the
61 resources of their loved ones, forcing those very loved ones to go
62 through the pain and agony with this person? (it is almost always
63 impossible to understand the true impact of this sort of situation
64 unless you have gone through it yourself, watching a loved one 
65 slipping away day by day as the agony of every breath becomes almost
66 unbearable despite the massive drugs being administered.) Is it right
67 to force this person to die this way. To hang on to every second.
68 To live the last hours, days, weeks or months in a coma because the
69 body deteriorated to the point that it could only be kept alive with
70 machines? Does this person not have the right to choose their own
71 life and death? Do they not have the right to decide how death comes
72 to them? Is it right to take that decision away from them and force
73 their last few moments of life to be filled with such agony that they
74 can no longer think or even live, that their world becomes nothing
75 but pain? My grandmother died of lung cancer, a painful death. Her
76 desire was to live in her own home as long as it was possible. The
77 family granted her that request, doing everything it could to support
78 her desire. The three years ago in November the condition worsened 
79 to the point that she ended up in the hosptal. A few weeks later she was
80 moved to a rest home. Again she asked to be allowed to die with dignity,
81 and to not be attached to machines beyond what her own body could
82 support herself, again this was granted. Direct oxygen feed and morphine
83 were the only thing provided to ease her passage. That and the love
84 of the family. Was it wrong to not try to force an extra few days
85 out of her body by attaching advanced machines to her? I personally
86 feel it would have been wrong, yet there are those who consider it
87 wrong, that a person must be forced to live out every second of existance
88 on this earth no matter what. I fail to see how this is good, all it 
89 acomplishes is to impoverish the family, and make everyone misserable.
90 My grandmother died at 3:00am 18 January 1984 with her family around
91 her. She died happy, I only hope that I can be so lucky as to be allowed
92 to die in peace with those I love around me when my time comes.
93 And yet in the back of my mind there is that nagging thought that
94 society has put there; was there something that could have be done to
95 extend her life? Is it right or wrong? who is to say. I can only go
96 my my own feelings as to what is right and wrong for me. Maybe they
97 don't fit what another person feels is right or wrong, but for my 
98 universe and reality they fit, for it is my perception. but that
99 reality is based around and built from the society I live in, and to 
100 live there comfortably I live with the values of that system. If I
101 don't I will be misserable, and that's a stupid way to live.
102 
103 I'll leave with a couple of thoughts passed on to me in class the 
104 other night (hey, two thoughts for the price of one!) 
105 First, as long as we hate war there will be war.
106 Second, the single most self destructive word in the english language
107 is "(I'm) sorry".
108 ########################### The Innkeeper #############################
109 Milord Innkeeper: some of thy friends do not find cannabilism repulsive. We
110 would object strongly to killing someone for food, but not to using their
111 body in this manner once they have no further use for it.
112      My studies reveal, however, that there is a valid reason for the 'tabu'
113 against cannabilism. Unless the meat is cooked very thoroughly it is certain
114 to pass on any diseases or parasite that may have afflicted the source.
115      There is at least on disease that is _only_ transmitted by cannabilism!
116 Kuru, the 'laughing sickness' of New Guinea is transmitted by eating the brain
117 of someone who is harboring the disease.
118      Your other point are well made though.
119 ..............................the apprentice..................................
120 ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
121 Right and Wrong?  These are only semantic terms. I have another observation.
122 If you consider the definition of right or wrong, you will find that they don't
123 exist, except in the consideration of a fixed enviornmment, such as a machine.
124 It can be said that there is a right way to use a screwdriver, and a wrong 
125 way, inasmuch as using a screwdriver the wrong way involves forcing it to do
126 something it was not designed for.  Or, better yet, there is a wrong way to 
127 tighten a standard thread machine screw. anyway, applying the terms Right and
128 Wrong to the actions of people is nothing more than sloppy english. The same 
129 goes for the terms Good and Bad.   When a person says that a particular action
130 is 'Good', then that person is merly being too lazy to properly phrase a 
131 sentence, to reflect what they really mean.
132    It is a shame that our eduational system does not require people to take a 
133 course in clear thinking.  Only people who have a hazy idea of what they
134 believe and an unorganized approach to presenting it can argue the merits
135 of 'Good' and 'Bad'.
136 ```````````````````````````````Mr. Interceptor``````````````````````````````
137 I CARE
138 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
139 At this point in the 'Right' and 'Wrong' discussion, I must interject a quuck
140 (quick) caution:  Right, wrong, good, bad, rich, poor, better, worse, etc, are
141 all words, subject to personal definitions.  Our society tries to tie specific
142 meanings and stigmas to those particular noises with dictionaries and morals,
143 but they are still defined by the individual.  To quote Humpty Dumpty when
144 talking to Alice, "When *I* use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean,
145 nneither more nor less."  Don't let words confuse you, and be very careful how
146 those words are chosen.  Also, be very mindful of how and why the other person
147 chooses their words.  Don't try to define the word 'Right', because the words
148 you use might mean something completely different to the listener.  Instead,
149 be our example with your deeds.
150 .-.-.-.
151 A society defines itself as a group of people with something in common.  That
152 commonality will define the 'good' and 'bad' of the society.  This is in
153 keeping with what our host the Innkeeper has said of cannibalism.  We, who
154 hold the body sacred in one manner call cannibalism 'bad', yet cannibals
155 call it 'good' (and maybe even tasty? :-).  We can't judge them unless they
156 try to force their beliefs upon our society.
157                And that's the basis of all our little wars.
158                            Words and values.
159         Ammbassadores must be very careful in thier choises of words.
160 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu
161 ch /choises/choices/
162 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
163 
164 Is it me, or is the band getting bigger?
165 ++Come, sweet slumber, and shroud me in thy purple cloak+++++ Milch @ 4:55am
166 ###############################################################
167 Dear Backwater Participants:
168 
169 I'm a graduate student in the school of Social Work at Portland
170 State.
171 
172 I've been using Backwater as a vehicle for a research project
173 I'm doing for my masters degree thesis. The title of the thesis
174 is "The psycho-social impact of a negative re-inforcer on the
175 creative development and interaction in an electronic 
176 community". You have all unknowingly participated in my 
177 research and I would like to thank you.
178 
179 The "WHO CAREDDS?" messages were the negative re-inforcer I 
180 selected for my experiment. The hypothesis of the research
181 was that the constant repetition of the negative message
182 would de-sensitize people to its impact.
183 
184 Unfortunately, the total opposite proved the case, it merely
185 infuriated everyone. 
186 
187 I discussed this phenomonon with my professor and he said it
188 didn't invalidate my study. He said it only meant that I needed
189 to re-examine my underlying premises to find my analytical
190 error.
191 
192 Actually, I'm so disappointed in my research findings that I'm
193 seriously considering giving up my studies in social sciences. 
194 I think instead I'm going to pursue a career as a topless
195 saxaphone player in a New Orleans whore house. Does anyone out
196 there offer saxaphone lessons?
197 
198 Whatever I decide to do with my career, the data collection
199 aspect of the research is over and I'm going to stop entering
200 the WHO CARES? messages. That'll only leave the original
201 twit, and he hardly ever entered any of them anyway.
202 
203                        Cindi Jacobson
204 
205 ##############################################################
206 ========================================
207 A while back a mentally deranged migrant
208 worker was found carrying a dead baby
209 around Hillsboro. He has sexually abused
210 the child to death. The little girl died
211 of massive bleeding from her virgina 
212 where he had forcefully penetrated her. 
213 
214 Right and wrong a, good and bad, are only
215 semantic terms? Bullshit. Mr. Interceptor
216 has spent too much time listening to 
217 half baked philosophy professors. The next
218 thing you know he'll be arguing that
219 Cindi Jacobson's research project was a
220 valid work of science.
221 
222 Sometimes I wonder about you people.
223 
224                 Dudley
225 =======================================
226 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
227 I think what the problem with semantics was that he was trying to determine
228 if an object (ie screwdriver) was either good or bad.  I don't think that
229 objects can be good or bad (even nuclear wepons), or perhaps even actions,
230 but the important issue is what conceptions are good or bad.  I think that
231 there can be no doubt that the above actions are bad (disgustingly so...
232 and I really think we needed that graphic reminder of how bad things can
233 get so close to our own homes).
234 	   However, I'd like to pose a moral delema (sorry, I'm not sure I'm spelling
235 correctly, my major wasn't english) to you all.  We can say that killing of
236 another person is wrong.  The concept of using a screwdriver as a killing 
237 instrument was wrong.  So is the use of nuclear wepons, only on a greater
238 scale.  So if you saw a person about to detonate a nuclear device, and the
239 only real chance you could see to stop him in time is to kill him with you're
240 (sorry again english fans) screwdriver, what would you do?  Die with a clean
241 concience or stop him?
242 		                                Fast Fred.
243 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
244 Just a comment on some of the above..
245 1) Slavery was not in its time a Moral issue as we are led to believe , It 
246 was an economic issue and was in fact dying out...If you stop to consider 
247 the expense of keeping people alive and well all their working lives then 
248 you can realize the problems faced by the owners of said people. It made 
249 sense to adopt (as they were doing) either a share crop system or direct 
250 wages.Both systems are still in use today, and I believe the direct wage 
251 system is by far the most evil of the two.Companies today can use people 
252 whenever and however they choose and when they (the workers) are used up 
253 or worn out or obselete , discard them into the trash heap of the unemplo
254 yed..And if a complaint is made ..We say something like "thats the system"
255 ect.
256 2) who cares....you foolishly overlookedthat human (only) quality to 
257 resist the negative and accentuate the positive,to look forward to better 
258 things and to work to create them and or the conditions to make it better..
259 faster..easier..
260 3) Eating human ,,,,social conditioning here I admit,but still
261                     Bob Blackburn
262 ____12/20/86__________________JD 2446785.3334_________12:00:08_PST_________

263 #############################################################
264 Cindi: Assuming you are who you say (who can tell on this crazy system?)
265 I agree with your professor, the problem that the activity you took
266 is something that is a lot more complex then it would seem on the 
267 surface. Feelings and emotions are very complex things. The problem
268 was not the negative re-enforcement message, but rather the mechanism
269 used to put it across. As with an earlier discussion, a supposedly
270 positive message "Trust Jesus" actually can have significant negative
271 aspects when it violates perceptions of what is the proper means of
272 getting the message across. In the case described scralling the message
273 on public surfaces and private surfaces in view of the public.
274 What you were in reality messuring was violation of personal space,
275 and not negative re-enforcement. (At least in my opinion.) The other
276 aspects were there, but they were covered up by the stronger survival
277 emotions (which is what is at the bottom of personal space violation).
278 I think if you were to find a better why of performing your experiment
279 that could isolate out the other emotions involved that you would have 
280 better luck. Or maybe sift through what you got to find out what you 
281 real found.
282 I don't think you failed. Oh you didn't get the results you were expecting,
283 but that is hardly anything new. But that isn't failure, it is sucess,
284 you got a result. That is something positive and something to work with.
285 Perhaps you can divert you original threoy to encompass what you found.
286 That's how science moves ahead by leaps and bounds, when results come 
287 back that were unexpected.
288 ######################### The Innkeeper ###############################
289 Back to the other subject of right verses wrong etc.
290 Slavery dying out? Depends on what time frame you look at it. When it started
291 in the last major incident in the western world it was a great economic 
292 success. It solved many great problems of the western world at the time.
293 It did not die because of the expense of feeding them, that is really not
294 that difficult. The current system is far more expensive and in reality
295 still relies heavily on the excessive use of resources for the use of the
296 few. Slave labor is just that, a resource, nothing more (which is why 
297 society says it is bad, we feel that somehow people are more than just
298 a resource to be used, so we teach our children that slavery is bad.)
299 What caused slavery to come to disuse largely was that other cheaper 
300 methods of getting the job done were found, particulary the invention
301 of the steam engine which lead to the industrial revolution. Slave
302 labor stuck around for quite some time after that, but that is because
303 it took time for the new way of life to spread through out the western
304 society. But it is hardly a new thing. We have always had cases of slave
305 labor through out history. One of the more well know other examples
306 was the enslavement of the Hebrews in as described in the bible. 
307 It wasn't economic change that cuased that demise, but rather the 
308 abuse of their task masters became so great that it overcame the ingrained
309 concept within the slaves that it was all they were good for. If you
310 are going to die anyway, why not die a free man?
311 As was pointed out on the right/wrong/good/bad they are not absolutes
312 defined as a basic part of nature. It changes depending on circumstances.
313 What about something that is neither good nor bad. Case in point, 
314 what about a rock, is it good or bad? What if it is part of a road bed?
315 What if someone trips over it and breaks their leg? What if it is just 
316 sitting on a mountainside and noone has ever even seen it? Is it good
317 or bad? 
318 The point is, if you are not aware of something how can it have good
319 or bad qualities. This shows that good and bad is something that we 
320 define ourselves How about an earthquake? It isn't even an object,
321 but an action. Yet we think of them as being bad because it disrupts
322 our lives, yet there is no malice involved, it just happens.
323 How about if a woman killed a man after intercourse, currently our 
324 society deems that as being a horible thing to do, but the Black Widow
325 spider does it. Doe sthat make the Black Widow spider a bad creature?
326 Well, my disks are all formated now, so it's back to work for me....
327 ############################# The Innkeeper ##########################
328 then you agree that slavery was an economic issue?????
329 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++off
330 ####################################################################
331 Certianly there were large economic aspects to it. Though slavery can exist
332 for other then economic reasons, the slavery that was involved in the early
333 years just prior to the industrial revolution was based on economic
334 reasons. That does not invalidate the existance of moral issues though.
335 All through the period there were those who considered it a bad idea,
336 and there were others who didn't care. I was not arguing the economic
337 issue of slavery verses other forms of labor, i was exploring the moral
338 issue of good and bad in the specific instance of employing a human being 
339 for the return of only a meager existance. Is it good or bad, and the
340 difference in view point over time as society changes to the new rules
341 we set for ourselves.
342 That was the point about hating war, as long as we hate war, we acknowledge
343 its existance. We create war by hating it. As long as we hate war it will
344 exist because by that very hate we give it existance.
345 ################################ The Innkeeper ############################
346 
347 -------------------
348 I don't know about other colleges and universities, but a Philosophy
349 professor who claimed that right and wrong were entirely relative
350 would not last long at the University of Oregon...
351  
352                    Max the Philosopher
353 -------------------
354 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
355 If we accept, for the moment, that 'good' and 'bad' are relative terms,
356 relative to the society in which the question is asked, then is truth
357 also relative ?
358 
359 Cindi - I know it seems that your study was a waste, but look at the state of
360 Backwater !!!  Enlightened and enlightening discussions.  Thanks.
361 
362 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]   Friar of the tree.   [][][][][][][][][][][][]
363 
364 JESUSS INSLAVES
365 
366 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
367 Perhaps the words should not be "right" and "wrong", but rather "correct" or 
368 "incorrect" within a social context.  For example, cannibalism is "incorrect"
369 in relation to the mass of general guidelines given us by our social background
370 .  This could also be extended to other things such as crime.  A person is not
371 good or bad, but the social background they come from may differ greatly from
372 ours and therefore be "incorrect" in our view of them from the background 
373 given us.  These terms are a little less relative, but relative nonetheless.
374       Words have so many meanings that what you don't say can be as important
375 or more important than what you do say.  Learning a foreign language will 
376 make you more aware of this, that words mean different things in different
377 contexts, and one must be very aware in order to gain the meaning closest to 
378 what the speaker or writer intended.  Sometimes it would be nice if people
379 were selectively telepathic.  They'd get their meaning across clearer, and would
380 not be as prone to misleading statements.
381         Who knows?  Thank you for allowing me my weekly quota of ranting and
382 raving.  I used to be a language major, really.  When one is taught straight
383 technical, one has a tendency not to understand.  Try understanding the 
384 'morphophonemics' (nice word, huh?) of Russian's genitive plural case.
385 Computer science must be a lot easier to understand.  At least it is a fairly
386 regular and results can be predicted.
387                                          'Til whenever,
388                                               UnBeLiEv
389                                                       Er.
390 
391 P.S. Milchar:  I guess not.  I can probably use my tax return to finance part
392 of it, unless I win the lottery.  Who knows?  Finagle's law must apply in any
393 situation.
394 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
395 ************************************************************************
396 To the Editor:
397     Frankly, I am embarrassed.  Why can't our goverment loosen up a tad?
398 Tonight a discusion came up in our home, it envolved the soviets efforts
399 at peace.  I truely believe that these are genuine signs of peace.  It
400 was mentioned that it could all be propaganda and that I was being brain-
401 washed.  I had an answer for this one too.  Our goverment has been telling
402 us for years that we are the good guys, and the russians are the bad guys.
403 Considering just how "honest" the goverment has been lately, I consider
404 them to be distrustworthy.  This has also been reinforced in what we see
405 on good old t.v.. Silly movies about the russians raiding the USA and
406 killing people.  My god, are we really going to be sucked in by all of 
407 that?  I say no! The russians have really made some changes recently,
408 starting with allowing their people to run their own INDEPENDENT buisnesses.
409 That is capitalism.  Also what about this Sokerav (sp) guy? They decided
410 to let him out of exile. And what is he doing? He's going home to Moscow.
411 His home, where he is at peace.  The russians are willing to pull their
412 nukes out of europe, but Reagon bulks.  What does Reagon do? He orders
413 a whole bunch more missles that will travel around on the nations railways.
414 Imagine that, a 7 warhead missle sitting down at UNION STATI
415 ON.
416 I guess Ive said my 3 or 4 cents worth, please no ranting and raving
417 about me being "unamerican." I love my country, most of the time.
418 ******************************kathyD*********************************************
419 THIS IS A MODEM CHECK.  SORRY TO WASTE YOUR SPACE LIKE THIS.  EVERYTHING SEEMS OK
420 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
421 NICE NOVEL. NO MESSAGE. NO POINT. NO PUNCHLINE. PLEASE, DO NOT REPLY.
422 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
423 Your kind of violence is so nonchalant, just a slap in the face, no power
424 fake it, fake it, for everybody else 
425 cqme qn 
426 
427 
428 
429 nevermind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
430 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
431 Believe it or not, I had a conversation last night with a person who
432 still is very much in favor of "Peace through superior firepower".  I
433 really didn't think there were any (at least at collage age level) left
434 around here.  Sad really.....
435 	                  	         Fast Fred   @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
436 ===============================================================
437 Cindi: It took a real bitch to do what you did. You cloak your
438 activities in a lot of scientific jargon but the bottom line is
439 that your WHO CARES? vandalism hurt peoples feeling and you 
440 don't give a damn!
441 
442 Do you have any idea what the long term effect of all those 
443 WHO CARES? messages? Of course you do, that was the whole idea
444 of your "experiment". You were trying to make people feel shitty
445 in the name of science. It's your kind of science that tortures
446 rats, plants implants in the brains of little kitties, and
447 injects drugs into prison "volunteers". 
448 
449 It wouldn't be nearly so bad if you didn't gloss over what
450 you did with your scientific impartiality and condescension.
451 I know that most of the guys on this board will stick up for
452 what you did because you're a girl. I think there some things
453 even sex doesn't excuse.
454 
455                         Disgruntled
456 =============================================================
457 #######################################################################
458 Certainly truth is relative. As are facts. Truth is usually based on
459 personal observation something we call a fact. Yet this is based on 
460 presumption that what we see it true. Fact and thus truth has been 
461 continually disrupted through out history. And by that many times it
462 has disrupted our notions of right and wrong. (I don't use the terms
463 correct or incorrect, because it just white-washes the use of the concept.
464 I agree that correct and incorrect are closer usage to what is being ment,
465 but since everyone uses right or wrong which are more powerful words
466 to get across their ideas, I use the same words mor my arguements.)
467 But back to facts and truth... A recent example of truth being changed
468 on a global scale, and thus changing our reality as our society has
469 defined it, was Einstien's theorys. Before that we lived in a Neutonian
470 world where our ideas about the world were based on his laws. Everything
471 was fixed. You did something, and it affected something else. Simple
472 and striaght forward. What goes up must come down. For every action
473 there is an equal and oposite reaction. This was great stuff compared to
474 what we believed before that. But then came along Einstien with his
475 everything is relative stuff, and suddenly the world changed and took 
476 on a more complex form. Things weren't quite so easy anymore. Limits
477 were defined, actions didn't always cause oposite and equal reactions.
478 physists had a hayday (and still are) because they finally had new 
479 worlds and concepts to explore. Even right this moment they are in
480 the process of redefining our world, finding new understandings to
481 old concepts and many times disrupting the old ideas so badly that 
482 they must be thrown away entirely. Thus a one time fact becomes nothing
483 but a concpet that is no longer valid. And that is what fact is, a 
484 concept that we believe to be true because we have observed other facts
485 that prove it to be so. The problem is that we are basing our proofs on
486 exsiting concepts of how the world is. An example is before Copernicus,
487 the world was the center of everything, and all the planets revolved 
488 around it. The very basis of astronomy was to more closly define those
489 orbits. No one every really considered that it might not be that way.
490 Then along came Copernicus with this new idea. And all of the sudden
491 the world changed. The old facts were thrown out, and new ones put in 
492 there place. Now observations and new fatcs are based on those new facts
493 that Copernicus created. If the very facts we base our beliefs on are
494 that unstable, who is to say that the facts we belief today will be
495 believed tomorrow? 
496 "We like to believe that the world progresses in an orderly fashion,
497 that all advances are based on previous knowledge. Yet history has shown
498 that everytime a new major advance has taken place it has required that
499 we throw away all of our old ideas in order to accept the new ones."
500 James Burke -
501 ########################### The Innkeeper ##############################
502 To Unbeliever: The problem with words is that in themselves they are meaningless
503 that is why they change from day to day. words are the carriers of ideas.
504 When an idea can't be gotten across with an existing word we create a new
505 one. often this is done by simply attaching a new meaning to and old word,
506 or slightly modifying it to attach the new meaning. My feathers get ruffled
507 when someone says that a word is not valid because it doesn't exist in some
508 dictionary. Any language that doesn't change is a dead language. It is dead
509 because there is no one who uses it on a daya to day basis, and thus there is
510 no need to create new words. It isn't old bearded professors sitting in 
511 some dark room filled with books that create new words. It is the people
512 who use them. We the people who speak and use the language every day. When
513 we need a new word we create it. When a concept dies the word that was 
514 attached to it goes into storage. maybe a new concept will be attached to
515 it later, or maybe it will never see the light of day again. Words are
516 tools that we take down and use to convay our concepts to others. And 
517 when we are done with them we put them away again.
518 ############################# The Innkeeper ###############################
519 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
520 CINDI> IF YOU WANT GUNIEA PIGS, GOTO THE ZOO.  KEEP US OUT OF YOUR RESEARCH.
521 I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE A GREAT MANY SOCIOLOGISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS OUT THERE THAT ARE A LOT CRAZIER THAN ANY 
522 OF THE PEOPLE THEY STUDY OR "HELP".
523 THEY CAUSE A LOT OF THE WORLDS PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!!!111
524 
525 THEY BECOME SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS AND GOVT. OFFICIALS.  YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS THEN.
526 
527 PURSUE ANOTHER CAREER FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
528 
529 <><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
530 
531 
532 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
533 SKATER DUDE:How do you get to the power room in ADVENT X-5?????????????????
534 
535 Help?????!!!!!
536 
537         A MAN CALLED GUMBY
538 
539 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
540 
541 
542 One day, The Art Of Noise met Tommy Cooper on his way to hear Weber's music,
543 when he told them that one should always listen to Webber's music in mauave!
544 
545 ++++545+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
546 UnBeLiEvEr: The person you live with knocked on my abode's door this morn,
547 looking for you.  Said person was in the company of a person called Denise,
548 ring any bells?  I told him where I thought you were (which you are, being
549 able to enter here).
550 program search;var truth:boolean;begin repeat writeln('searching for truth')
551 until false end.
552 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milchar ++++++ December 21, 1986 ++++
553 hello is anyone out their I'm brand new to the feild of telecomm and though     
554 
555 ht I would give you guys or gals depending on witch this message is
556 going to. to leva
557 mike day are you out there?
558 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
559 for the next 60 seconds this station a  test of the emergency broadcast system.
560 
561 
562 
563 
564 
565 
566 
567 
568    THIS STATION has been conduting a    test of the emergency broadcast syste
569 
570 
571 system   this would have been a act
572 enter
573 
574 
575 
576 
577 
578 Where can I get a current list of BBS in the Portland area. leave message for   
579 
580 
581 
582  for Jonny V.
583 DE 10
584 ******************************lurkiousmodiest*******kathyD********************
585 Cindi - Since no one has yet offered saxaphone lessons, I thought I would
586 at least help your career along by offering you topless lessons.  My place
587 or yours ?              -- Lech
588 
589 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
590 Cindi:
591    For many reasons, I stopped checking in at the Inn frequently about a year a 
592 ago. Several months later, I peeped in a few times, and what I recall most, are
593 the WHO CARES. I would sigh, convinced that the Backwater was permanently 
594 infested with twits, and not venture back for long periods. If you are what you
595 say you are, take what you will from my comments. I learned something, based on
596 what I've read preceding this message, my hasty judgement may have deprived me
597 of some rich discussion here. Perhaps the WHO CARES encouraged people to rebel
598 and/or care. I wouldn't know, as I mentioned I haven't been around. 
599                        __________________________________
600 
601 To the Innkeeper:  Nice to see you being so vocal here, you're leading interes-   
602 esting discussions. When I was here before, you weren't that often.
603 
604 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  Miss Nomer  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
605 ##########################################################################
606 True, it seems to go in cycles. Usually I just stay in the background
607 and let the others talk. But every once in a while a subject suits my 
608 fancy and I jump in with both feet. (and often times as not end up with them getting broken!)
609 ####################### The Innkeeper ###################################
610 Mr. Johnny V.
611             The BBS system "MC3" p
612             publishes a monthly newslett
613             er that lists many of portla
614             nd's Boards
615 
616 
617 
618 
619                 (pexcuse my weird typing)                Boards, or u can c
620                 contact Les Brunker on the "Q".  Its number is 771-xxxx.  Just
621 leave him an E-mail and he'll be glad to rgive you some numbers.
622                 mCraig Chatter
623 ChatChatChatChatCjhatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatchatChatChatChatChat

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