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25 Gibberish, Leonard, doesn't defend one's position very well: ---quoting from
26 fiction for real-life support is a curious tactic; ---overlooking that, having
27 yet to meet this Akonis, I can hardly be his valued friend; ---failing to quiz
28 the addressor as to his true intent, substituting instead several assumptions
29 of your own; ---and suggesting by your own interpretation that I am mistaken,
30 potentially fanatic, and forgetful!   Is this all from the Don Rickles school
31 of Debate and Other Gutter Games?
32 You exhibit mastery in character assassination through association:  put me 
33 and my words beside your wandering discussion of someone's ridiculous obsession
34 splashes me with your mental spatter-gun.  If we have need for further inter-
35 course, let us both observe reasonable etiquette forensically.
36 To you, Dragon Lady, I send my condolences --- you have a friend who is 
37 marginally literate and admittedly hard-pressed to express himself with
38 clarity.  If indeed, ladies can complement men, you've got a lot of work to
39 do for that one.  And you LAUGH at sorry ideas?    Just what of mine was
40 'rash accusation': reference to his belief in the prowess of having been
41 given an XY-chromosome combination, or that he generalizes his needs into
42 life-statements by which we must all abide?   I applaud your voice, however.
43  
44 To you directly, Akonis:  I support your recognition of what is truly murky.
45 Please, I entreat you, try to define and illustrate this marvelous 
46 'masculinity' and its virtues for us all.  Tell me how you view 'virility',
47 while you're at it.
48 B.A.D.: Why punctuate your last idea with a question mark?  You've already
49 got two of the reasons you seek.  Add to these thoughtlessness, conceit,
50 puffery, illogic.  NEITHER MEN NOR WOMEN ARE DRAWN TO THESE TRAITS!
51 Consider this, all of you:  Your beliefs, values, choices, and prejudices
52 --and MINE-- have come from (y)our pasts.  Since each of us has seen a
53 different world, each of us varies in his outlook.  Refrain from 
54 characterizing any individual without evidence!  If you must refer to
55 a gender-based class, be at least courteous in your titles:  I prefer "Ladies"
56 in that it does not defame any woman in the audience, who may not be given
57 a choice to be excluded from the class.  We run the risk of over-rating some,
58 however, who haven't retained their rights to inclusion in it!
59     Now...am I still a rash, fanatic, mistaken stereotypical example?
60 =====================---- Proud Amazon ----===========================
62 .................
63 To: Proud Amazon       Fm: A Male
64 Alas, one never knows the words to use for each individual has different
65 meanings to those words. Though I do consider the term 'Lady' to the 
66 highest honor. There have been times that when I have used it when 
67 anger has issued forth from some woman I seem to have insulted by its
68 use. What's a male to do? No matter what you try you are always in 
69 trouble with someone in the crowd. Because of this I no longer try to
70 please everyone around. Instead I use my terms and my meanings. If you 
71 cannot see what I am saying then I am sorry for your inability to see
72 things through anothers eyes, but I will not degrad my self to be the
73 low worm that you seem to see me as. 
74 ....................................
75      Milady of dragons,
76      I see you prepare to leave this Inn once more. Alas, must
77      it always be so? I hate to see you leave, for as always
78      your presence adds warmth and grace to this humble
79      retreat. Though at times your voice has risen to rival
80      the best, it is all to often that its quiet warmth has
81      brought a hush to the Inn as all strain to listen to the
82      words issued forth. At times I can almost see the
83      *sparkle* in your eyes as I listen to what you have said.
84 
85    ********************** 7:00 PM ***************************
86    As the Innkeeper spies the gentle lady prepare to leave he
87    half raises his arm to bid her to pause. It is seldom that
88    such as she enters this Inn and the Innkeeper would ask of
89    her return. As he winds his way thru the crowd to the door
90    he is in hope to catch sight of her befor she is gone. All
91    that he sees though as he breaks thru the smoke is an open
92    door and the coming darkness without.  Yet something still
93    lingers, a presence or else.  A wafting breeze brings past
94    a fragrence of a haunting scent, a rememberance that shall
95    always be held.   As he looks down to the floor he spies a
96    leaf blown in thru the door. He bends to pick it up and to
97    throw it back,  but pauses in the remeberance of the lady,
98    and keeps it instead.   With that thought does he look out
99    the door  to the star filled night,  and thus does he know
100    that someday  the lady will indeed return.   Until then he 
101    retains the leaf for all the kind memories that it brings.
102 
103    *** CISTOP MIKEY of the Backwater Inn *** 11 June 1983 ***
104 
105 ___________________________________________________________________________
106 A few Observations:
107 1)The Amazons were noted for cutting off one breast (thus denying part of
108 their sexuality) because it interfered with there archery.
109 1a) They were also noted for their ENSLAVEMENT of their men.
110 2)Regardless of what anyone may think, the human race is very pragmatic -
111 They will put the reins of power into the hands of the group most suited
112 to handle them. Take a look at history and see whether men or women have
113 contributed the most to the advancemant of the race (and don't cop-out
114 with the bullshit about women being oppressed).
115 3)Also take a look at history and see the role women have played in
116 pushing men into wars, striving, and general competitiveness!  -
117 the world would be a very different place if the women would leave
118 the men to their own devices and not push them to obtain more and more
119 in an attempt to satisfy their lazy, egocentric women.
120 ____________________Max Grody_________________________________________
121 =================
122 The reason I don't call any female 'a lady' is that by the time I've learned
123 enough about her to know if she's 'a lady,' she isn't a lady anymore...
124 =================
125 WELL, AT LEAST I NOW KNOW WHY THERE ARE NO FEMALES HERE NOW.
126 THE INTENSE DISLIKE DISPLAYED HERE IS TRULY AMAZING AND SAD. 
127 THE DARKNESS CLOSES IN SO QUICKLY WHEN THE WARMTH OF THE SUNSHINE
128 HAS GONE. ONE WONDERS HOW PEOPLE CAN BE SO UNHAPPY.
129 ****** A DISENCHANTED CISTOP MIKEY **** 11:47PM 11 JUN 83 *******
130 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
131    Amazon,
132       I find it truly amazing that you have the gall to accuse another of 
133 doing badly in the art of debate, (especially since he did adequate), 
134 when you yourself apparently do not no how at all!  So for, you hath 
135 slung mud, argued, and acted totally irrational.  Hardly debating.
136    As for my attitudes on masculinity, perhaps you should take a 
137 psychology course at P.C.C. It's affordable. I reccomend 'Human Sexuality'
138 myself.
139    If you are born as being the one who does NOT bear the children of the 
140 species, then you are male.  Under that definition I am male.
141 When you are male, everything you do, say, feel, etc. is MASCULINE. At
142 least as far as the definition of the word goes.  By society's rules 
143 however, it's different.  I have been raised in a totally female 
144 environment all my life, and thus have picked up MANY female traits.  
145 Therefore, by society's deem, I am feminine.  That is a torment I have 
146 suffered throughout my grade school years, until I found people who 
147 aren't stupid enough to believe that I am somehow undesirable.
148 As far as masculinity goes, I do not defend it.  Masculinity is a thing 
149 males are, and they can't help it.  I can no more defend masculinity as I
150 could purple.
151    By virility, I assume you mean machoism.  I think that is a stupid 
152 concept in itself.  'Macho' is derived from a spanish word that means 
153 'sterile bull'.  I would hardly want to be associated with that, and I 
154 cannot concieve of how any sane person WOULD want to be.
155    As for you, I would guess that you have been badly hurt by some cruel
156 males.  Your downgrading the male sex (even your very name refers to a 
157 suppresive group of people) is sheer stupidity, and is doing females 
158 great harm, in that it destroys what the 'sexual revolution' was supposed 
159 to build -- equality.
160    One of the most logical and best arguments I've heard from 
161 liberationists is that male suppression only shows their fear, and 
162 stupidity.  Should that work BOTH ways?  Or are you stupid enough to 
163 believe that females are somehow exempt from being stupid!
164    As far as my being illiterate, I'm surprised you could tell, after all,
165 reading is an art that few people of your caliber master.
166         Akonis
167 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
168 Akonis, wasn't that last paragraph a bit uncalled for?
169 
170 
171 Amazon: I quoted from fiction as (good) fiction is a very good
172 source for usages & cultural background details. As for the 
173 scattergun you mentioned- I was saying that IF you continued to
174 jump to certain types of conclusions based on certain words 
175 (exclusive of context I might add!), you would lead people to
176 class you with the fanatics I described. Your responses so far
177 show that you aren't THAT fanatic, but they still haven't put
178 you anywhere NEAR a "happy medium". A point I should have tried
179 to make was that if you do not wish certain forms of address
180 used then you should POLITELY tell the person(s) involved. Your
181 response (regarding "dearest" etc) was of a type more appropriate
182 to a DIRECT insult! Condescension and the like, ARE insulting
183 but they are indirect insults. 
184 	For what it is worth, I have checked with several people
185 as to whether or not THEY would consider that form of address
186 insulting. Irregardless of whether it was being applied to a
187 man or a woman, ALL the men said no & ALL the women said yes!
188 Being a man, I don't understand why it would be insulting
189 (except in certain contexts). But I could NOT get a friend (female)
190 to understand why it WOULDN'T! I think we'll just have to chalk
191 it up to cultural conditioning & wait for the next generation
192 to wonder what all the fuss was about.
193 ______________________Leonard_________________________________
194 .......
195 1234567
196 1line 1
197 2line 2
198 1234567
199 .......
200 I think it works
201 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
202 To Max Grody, and your "observations:
203 1. not true
204 2. same
205 3. Maybe, but usually power is taken, by the stronger not the better
206 4 I doubt you have read history, and certainly not studied it
207 
208 The Amazons fought next to there men; which so astonished the Spaniards
209 they couldn't cope with the idea. Slander is more exciting than the real
210 thing, so it is more widely told, but the truth is known by those who
211 read nonfiction. "Amazon" is certtainly not a slanderous name, nor one
212 to be ashamed of. Why must you put down your equals? Fear?
213 
214 However, as different people have different ideas as to correct address,
215 I hedged my bets. If "lady" is prefered, so be it.
216 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D.++0653 am June 12++++++++++
217   I find  Girls to be frequently smarter than boys are. They are
218 more gentle and less agressive than men are.
219 
220               Tron
221 ----------
228   If you think rationally about all of this war between the sexes garbage,
229 there is only one conclusion to be reached.  There are only two times that
230 one's sex makes any difference at all:  Reproduction (or at least going 
231 through the motions) and Physical strength (and how often does it really
232 matter today).  All the rest is bovine excrement!
233 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} Analog Alan {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
234   Lemme see.  TLB must be tiny little brains.  I hope the two purported non-
235 males on here didn't take my 'macho conspiracy' comments seriously.  I was
236 merely expressing incredulity at the articles that I had seen in the press.
237   Actually having purported non-males on BWMS has an unpleasant side-effect.
238 The line sure is a great deal more often busy than when machismo ruled!
239 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
240 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
241   Yes, Tron, your obserbvations are very much correct. In the great 
242 jumble of life, human females were given the intellect, and human males
243 were given the muscle.  Nowadays, however, men and women are more equal 
244 mentally AND physically.
245    Leanard, you're right.  My last paragraph was uncalled for.  I wrote
246 it in the heat of my anger.  I'm sorry.
247       Akonis
248 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
249 ***********SHIBUMI*********
250 Not enough emphasis has been put into the basic 
251 physiological differences between male and female.
252 The female by genetics has a whole different metabolism
253 and hormonal differences than the male, this is not
254 to say whether that is bad or good. Just a medical
255 FACT that does make a differnce in the way men and women
256 percieve things in the world around them. The male
257 has oodles of testostrone flowing in his system telling
258 him to be macho, be cool, be aggressive. It is a rare 
259 individual who can circumvent this natural programming
260 and not be to macho.
261 Ask any doctor on the use of this hormone in therapy
262 and he will tell you of the phsychological side effects.
263 On the other hand the female hormones estrogen and 
264 progestrone make one moody and unstable emotionally.
265 Again, that is neither here nor there, Just medical fact.
266 Both you must admit are undesirable effects. So, what is 
267 one to do? There is no escape? Yes there is. It just
268 takes time for society to catch up to whats going on.
269 earlier there was a comment about the next generation 
270 laughing at our seemingly non existent problems. How
271 true, today we already laugh at Archie Bunker when
272 just a few years ago his attitude was the norm.
273 The only thing to do is be aware of the problem and
274 be patient. One cannot destroy the fabric of an era
275 in one fell swoop (i.e. the ERA) It won't work.
276 What is the big deal anyway. We are men and women, two
277 halves of a whole. No one is better than the other. We
278 each have our good points and bad. If you don't like
279 chauvinists or feminists, don't hang out with them.
280 Easy solution. Relax and enjoy what you are male or female.
286 ..................................................
287 I do believe the differences are more learned than geneticly
288 foced through hormones. As to the female hormones causing
289 "moody and unstable", experience says otherwise. For example,
290 your tom cat has begun to spray and howl at the moon, as well
291 as get in fights, so you have him spayed. It's too late, though,
292 he has already learned to like to tomcat about, so he continues
293 to do so. But your vet has a cure called Depo Provira, a synthetic
294 female hormone (it's used on human women as a birth control pill)
295 that makes him think he is a pussy cat. He gets very friendly and
296 contented, stops gadding about, spraying, etc. He will probably
297 forget all about "macho", even when the DP wears off. The ladies
298 are moody and unstable not because of the female hormones, but
299 because their monthly cycles between high and low hormone levels.
300 Before you men laugh too hard, note that we also have cycles, they
301 just aren't a neat month apart. There is a much wider range of normal
302 behavior than the difference between the sexes, though, so the 
303 range of normal behavior overlaps a lot.
304    There are diferences, though, and viva la difference! Real
305 differences such as size, strength exist on the average, but I have
306 seen female manual laborers who don't consider themselves ladies, 
307 and are a lot larger and stronger than I. Are you 'average' or
308 would you rather be yourself? There are stronger men and women
309 than you, as well as weaker, but I an sure there is something unique
310 about each of us. The diferences are not all bad: if two are unlike,
311 one is better than the other. Sometimes. Maybe just diferent.
312 Statiscal studies of student's grades on various tests implies that
313 ladies are more artistic, more 'holistic', better at relating to
314 people; men are better at mathematics and abstract reasoning. ON
315 THE AVERAGE. These statistical diferences are much smaller than the
316 normal range for either. The average IQ of both are identical.
317 Except for the physical sex traits (e.g penis vs vagina and breasts)
318 there is no known distinguishing feature. Still the ladies live
319 (on the average) 5 years longer than men. 
320 The arguement about which is better is at best menaingless, though;
321 without both men and women we couldn't exist: it takes one of each
322 to make babies.
323 enough~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.
324 *'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*
325 Touche' men!  (Except Max Grody)  I am but a brief visitor to the BWMS
326 and am surprised (pleasantly), intrigued, and impressed by the reasoning 
327 and attitudes you have expressed in this male/female discussion.  I 
328 have worked with too many men and women whose chauvinistic and
329 feministic attitudes have caused divisions and mutual suspicion to 
330 the point of seriously hindering good working relationships and friend-
331 ships.  Thank you for your reasonableness and fairness.
332 To the Dragon Lady:  Thanks for defending the men.  I was pleased to see
333 a woman's viewpoint in such stark contrast to the "liberated" views of
334 Amazon which unfortunately reinforce the stereotype of modern women.
335 
336 To Leonard:  The reason I would be offended by the term "dearest" used to
337 address me at work is that at my first job the manager called me that with
338 intentions obviously not limited to a respectful friendship.  I would guess
339 that many women associate this word with sexual harassment, as I do, based
340 on experience.  However, on a billboard such as this where one cannot show
341 respect, etc. through actions, words must suffice, and I would not find
342 "dearest" threatening or insulting.
343  
344 To all as a closing thought (or two):
345 
346   "We must learn to love each other, not despite our differences, but
347 because of them."
348 
349   "Every living thing has its own gifts."
350 
351 *'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'* Lady Altair *'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*'*
352 THIS DISCUSSION TO DATE HAS HAD A MOST DECIDED HUMANISTIC ASPECT EXPRESSED BY 
353 ALL PARTIES. i WOULD LIKE TO ENLARGE THE VIEWPOINT BEYOND
354 THAT OF MERE MEN. GRANTED IT IS MOST REASONABLE TO HAVE OUR OWN SELF CENTERED 
355 VIEWPOINTS IN THAT WE ARE SELF-CENTERED (ASK ANY MATE WHO 
356 COMPETES WITH A COMPUTER. IN REALITY THERE IS FAR MORE MEANING TO LIFE THAN THAT
357 WHICH WE CAN READILY SEE. HAVING SEARCHED INTO DEEPER THINGS I AM NOW AWARE THAT
358 THE WORLD IS MORE THAN JUST FLESH AND BLOOD.  THERE IS ACTUALLY MEANING TO THIS 
359 APPARENT MADNESS. UNFORTUNATELY AFTER ONE BECOMES AWARE HE IS ALSO ACCOUNTABLE 
360 TO MUCH HIGHER AUTHORITIES. ALAS EVEN WHEN "UNENLIGHTENED" 
361 AND STILL LIVING IN THE DARK HE IS "UNKNOWINGLY" ACCOUNTABLE. i SAY UNKNOWINGLY 
362 BECAUSE MEN THROUGH THE AGES HAVE TESTIFIED OF AN EMPTYNESS WITHIN THEM SEEKING 
363 TO BE FULFILLED. PASCAL SAID IT MOST CLEARLY WHEN HE SAID THERE IS A "GOD-SHAPED
364 VACCUUM" IN EVERY MAN. FROM MY EXPERIENCE I'M SURE THAT INCLUDED WOMAN. THE 
365 OLDEST RECORDS CLEARLY AND SIMPLY TELL US THAT GOD MADE US. 
366 FIRST MAN THEN WOMAN BECAUSE MANWAS NOT COMPLETE. BUT BECAUSE OF MANS' SELF-
367 CENTEREDNESS, REBELLION, AND EASE OF BEENING DECEIVED. .. WE
368 NOW LIVE IN A FALLEN STATE WHERE WE ARE UNABLE TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND FULLY. 
369 THERE ALSO EXIST THOSE WHO WOULD BLIND US TO THE TRUTH. AND TRY TO TURN TRUTH 
370 INTO A LIE OR FOOLISHNESS. UPON CLOSE EXAMINATION OF THE PRESENT AND THE PAST WE
371 FIND THAT WE ARE VICTIMS OF A MASTER PLOT TO DESTROY US FOR ALL ETERNITY AND TO 
372 KEEP US IN DARKNESS...THEOPHILUS
373 =======================------------------------==========================
374 If I respond to all your allegations and contentions, will you promise to
375 make hardcopy of this ENTIRE discussion, from the original comments by
376 Akonis, Alan, and myself on DB, and to STUDY them, so that you are able to
377 separate the genuine from the deceptive and boisterous, to weed out
378 the loaded words that I and others have used, and to attempt to bring from
379 it some new or modified BEHAVIOR within yourself that you honestly feel
380 will improve the human condition in your immediate life?  That would be
381 worth the effort for all of us!  Until later, if ever, I leave you with
382 just: if SYTs are sweet young things (just what is the source of that
383 label, anyhow?), then TLBs are tough little boys (to use a phrase from
384 Disk B).
385 ===================----- Proud Amazon ---------=====================
405 _________________________________________________________________
409      
410 To B.A.D.: You should study your history some more - The Amazons
411 were part of GREEK History/Mythology and had nothing to do with
412 south America and the Spaniards.
413    
414 To B.A.D.: There are a lot more physical differences between Men and
415 Women - ask any Athropologist (seeing as how they can determine
416 the sex of a person FROM AN INCOMPLETE SKELETON!!!
417    
418 To any who care: I am definitly Male and I agree that using the
419 term "Dearest" with a strange female is definitly Derogatory, and/or
420 Condecending. The term "dear" when used in most contexts (but not all)
421 is also condecending and/or patronizing.
422 The literary example cited (Sherlock Holmes) definatly fits into
423 this catagory - Holmes is implying that Watson is not smart enough
424 to figure it out, so he (holmes) will explain in "elementary" terms.
425 ___________Max Grody_________________________________________
426 Max,
427   I didn't make myself clear enough. My father does this because
428 he is an alchoholic and can't control his reactions. But, he
429 is drunk half the time. I just have to cope with this the hard
430 way. He is a complete angel when he doesn't drink, but, then
431 that is not often at all. I just forgot to say thhe above.
432 
433 
434                  Tron
435 ----------
436 
437 Usage of the term 'Dearest':
438     By the very nature of the word, it indicates one who is
439 closest to your heart. Since this is seldom the case, the usage of
440 the word dearest would by that very nature reek of sarcasm. This
441 would be especially true with one who is sensitive to the emotional
442 aspects of the langauge as is the case with most women. As such
443 they would be most likely to be offended by its usage. Since it is
444 not normally used with referance to a man, this offense is not
445 normally noticed by them. You generally have to be on the receiving
446 end of that sort of thing to really have the impact of its meaning
447 brought home.
448 **** Just a random thought by CISTOP MIKEY *** 13 Jun 83 *** 11:00PM ****
449 Mikey+++CANT YOU JUST SAY "WITH ONE WHO IS SENSITVE" ECT. AND LEAVE OFF THE
450 WOMEN PART?   I WILL AGRREE WITH THE AMAZON==YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN REALIZE THAT
451 YOU ARE GENERALIZNIG ABOUT WOMEN AGAIN.  MAYBE THATS WHAT THE "FANATICS"
452 ARE ABJECTING TO,HUH?  NO OFFENCE MAN.  I JUST SEE HER POINT.
453 **********************************************************************
454 
455 Certainly I am generalizing. If you will reread what I said, you 
456 will find I specifically stated that it was a generalization.
457 This does not mean that men are not sensitive to the emotional aspects
458 of the language, nor does it mean that all women are as sensitive to it.
459 I am only bringing forth an observation on my part, that being that 
460 most of the women I know are far more sensitive (meaning able to see, 
461 not taking umbrage to.) the emotional aspects of what is said then most
462 men I know. I don't see how this is in any way degrading or otherwise
463 defamitory of women, it is simply a different way of dealing with the
464 understanding of what is said.
465 Indeed, if anything I would consider it an advantage compared to the
466 typical straight forward literal translation that most men I know perform.
467 The emotional aspects of what is said as can be determined by the tone
468 and timber (among other things) of what is said can often carry far
469 more information then the words themselves. As an experiment, ask the 
470 next person you see how they are feeling. Chances are very good that
471 the answer they give and the tone it is given in won't match. Sometimes
472 they do, but this provides even more emphisis to the emotion, not detracting.
473 Why should women be able to see this more then men? Simple, they have
474 had far more practic at it then men. It has nothing to do with the
475 physical aspect of being a woman, a man can learn this just as easily,
476 and in fact many have. Remember, that I was only speaking in the most
477 general terms as to a possible answer to why women seem to find the
478 term 'dearest' objectionable, and men don't as per the previous
479 discussion. (How's that for waffling?)
480 ****** CISTOP MIKEY AGAIN ***************************************
481 THEN WHY DO WOMEN IN GENERAL HAVE MOST PROACTICE WITH EMOTIONAL THINGS?
482 AND SHOULD THAT CHANGE?  WHAT ABOUT MODERN AMERICAN NEGROS--IS THERE
483 A EMOTIONAL SEX AND A LITERAL SEX?
484 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
485 BYE
486 ----------
487 Sure! I call a girl I follow around (no relationship going on)
488 "DEARIE" just for kicks. She doesn't mind and I don't mind. That's
489 a term just about everyone uses out in Corbett. I call even some
490 of my friends that are boys "DEARIE" which is kind of a way to
491 say "SMARTIE". "DEARIE" to the boys is different than "DEARIE"
492 to the girls.
493 
494              Tron
495 ----------
496 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
497    As to the usage of the forms of 'dear' and usage of 'lady' (that was 
498 mentioned a while back), it seems to me that they are the 'reserved 
499 words' of life.
500    Other than the standard practice of addressing letters with 'Dear', I 
501 will not call anyone that unless (s)he IS dear to me.  If I were to do 
502 that, I would be patronizing.
503    However, if someone calls ME that, I do not view it as patronizing 
504 unless, knowing by personality or tone of voice, they intended it that 
505 way.  Needless to say, signals often get crossed and cause problems.  
506 Similar to the typical 'Three's Company' stunt of having someone overhear 
507 a partial conversation.
508    I will REFUSE to call a woman 'lady' unless I view her as such.  To 
509 me, that is not a word to throw around lightly.
510    An interesting case of what to call people, an old (female) friend of 
511 mine used to constantly call me 'meat'.  Which was fine with me BUT ONLY 
512 FROM HER.  If anyone else called me that, there'd be hell to pay.
513    Actually, males and females, from a physiological point of view, are 
514 very similar. Even body processes.  Males go through periods similar to 
515 females, but without any discharge.  Also, the male 'periods' are much 
516 longer and less regular.  But they affect men the same way periods affect 
517 women!  
518    The only REAL difference between men and women is in brain 
519 organization.  They are totally different there.
520        Akonis
521 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
522 Max, if you read HISTORY, not mythology, you will be hard pressed to find
523 Amazons in Greek history. The mythology was very real to them, tho, even
524 if it was just myth. They regarded the amazons in their myths not with
525 loathing, but with fear. In ancient Greece, women were not held quite as
526 equal as we pretend to, but they were real citizens.
527 The differences between male and female I refered to include hard parts
528 as well as soft, and physical diferences do exist. Mental diferences are
529 another thing. None have been found that are definitive. (i.e. none can
530 be found that would allow by themselves to identify a specimen as M or F.
531 Our use of the word lady comes from Medieval times, when it implied a
532 women of the aristocracy, it was a title. Since royalty and that kind
533 of titles do not exist anymore, it has come to mean about the same as 
534 woman (in denotation) but perhaps a little more genteel in connotation.
535 (Of course there are the "street ladies"). 
536 What we mean may be what we say, but what is heard is not the same, but
537 is rather how the hearer interprets the sounds produced. This is to say
538 that each person has a diferent meaning, depending on his/her background.
539 Since we often use formal phrases to imply honor, and informal or
540 intimate phrases toward subordinates, a word like "dear" to someone
541 other than a true intimate would often imply an insult; but it all 
542 depends. Some regions of the world (and these can be small or even close)
543 use the same word to mean slightly different things.
544 If you want to go farther back into the history of "lady", my dictionary
545 says the word meant 'kneader'(of bread), whic I suppose was a ladylike
546 job in those days.
547 *******************************************B.A.D.*****15 JUN 83**0630 am****
548 WHO SAYS THE OLDEST WRITING WAS RELIGIOUS? TAINT SO, THE OLDEST WE KNOW
549 IS THE SAME AS MOST NEW: INVENTORIES AND SUCH SIMPLE PAPER WORK, ALL
550 BE IT ON CLAY. THE NEXT WAS GRAPHITI, THEN COMES SUCH PHILOSOPHY AS THE
551 STATEMENT THAT SOCIETY IS GOING DOWNHILL: THE CHILDREN DON'T OBEY THEIR
552 PARENT, ETC. DOWNHILL FOR THE LAST 4000 YEARS? WE MUST BE REAL BAD.
553 .........................
554 As for emotional sex vs literal sex, I feel that most (if not
555 ALL) of that is a product of conditioning. I can testify from
556 experience as I am a male raised by a female with no real male
557 role-model in sight! One thing that comes to mind as to how
558 important role models are is a memory from when I was about 4
559 I remember noticing that Mommy crossed her legs, so over the
560 next several weeks I DELIBRATELY acquired the habit. I mention
561 this as an example of the concious & unconcious choices children
562 make. I also acquired (unintentionally) other "female" habits
563 & responses. I still tend to cry in "inappropriate" situations
564 (which has caused MUCH trouble in the past). I am a human being
565 why do MY emotional outlets & physical mannerism have to match
566 YOUR standards? 
567 	Things are changing, though. I don't think kids are being
568 QUITE as condtioned into the stereotypical roles (or else the
569 roles are closer together now). We are making some progress,
570 let's hope we get there eventually (the sooner, the better!)
571 	A final note: I understand that physically there are
572 grounds for considering WOMEN to be "superior" to men. You
573 don't think so, fellas? OK, how well could you stand a strain
574 equivalent to childbirth (as an example). Women who couldn't
575 died, removing THEIR genes from the pool. But it really doesn't
576 matter, I just thought we might need some counter-propaganda!
577 ___________________________Leonard_____________________________
578 "CHICK" is considered a derogatory term. It also can be used in
579 a NON-derogatory fashion (trust me). Can anyone suggest an
580 EQUALLY SHORT & CONVENIENT substitute?? (I'm tired of getting
581 jumped on by "chicks" I know!)
582 ______________________________________________________________
583 To B.A.D.:
584 Many considered the story of Helen of Troy and the Trojan horse
585 to be Mythology, not too long ago an archaeologist studied those 
586 "Myths" and then went out and excavated a city where Troy was said
587 to be - It seems there is no firm line between Myth and History!
588 _________________Max Grody___________________________________
589 P.S.: The usage of certain terms (such as "lady") tells much
590 more about the speaker than about the person being spoken of (sometimes).
591 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
592    I agree very much that 'male' and 'female' behavior is learned for the 
593 most part.  I too, was raised in an all female household with no male 
594 role model, and I too cross my legs (a habit I am just now breaking).  I 
595 also cry in public and private and I don't feel bad about doing so.  It's 
596 too bad more people out there can't.  It does wonders.
597    Females ARE supirior in many respects to men (Don't get me wrong: men
598 have things over women too).  Women handle stress and pain MUCH better 
599 then men do. I suspect that this is very much tied to the concept that 
600 men can't hurt -- they keep it held in.  The very thing that causes many 
601 people to think women are weak (their crying, screaming, and the like), 
602 is what gives them the ability to handle such better than men!
603    Women do better in highly tense situations.  Contrary to popular 
604 belief, on the average women will not faint while under stress. They WILL 
605 if they don't need to be doing something else, and after the event, but 
606 that's to thier benefit.!
607       Akonis
608 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
609 Max, yes Troy existed. But the horse? Well, maybe, but probably not the
610 thing shown in the movie about Helen of Troy. Most myths were originally
611 some exageration of truth, and then went on from there. The reason we
612 doubt most of them is simple: they don't hold water. You can believe them
613 all you want, but if so don't be too surprised when your own validity is
614 held in poor respect by your listeners. For instance the Odessey and
615 Illiad are often beieved to represent a condensed version (much enhanced)
616 of the oral history of the earlier voyages by many early Greeks, as
617 if all were one long trip. After a few generations a mean one eyed man
618 who led a group of nasties became cyclops, etc. When an assortment of
619 original truths about many are assigned to one (originally real) person,
620 the final result isn't truth anymore.
621 A known example of oral myths originating from a real, historical event
622 was the eruption of a large volcano in Indonesia about 200 years ago.
623 The results were exagerated, and made much nearer the present. Other
624 much later events tended to be merged into the story, especially if they
625 were about catastropy. What remains is more a clue to the event than
626 a factual record. Of course it astounded many anthropologist that 
627 "primative" people remembered anything that long. (It seems they are't
628 Christians or Jews, though, as here again is an oral tradition spanning
629 several thousand years).TIME TO BURN OUT ANOTHER DISK, MIKE......B.A.D........

