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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ******************** REMOVED: 21 AUG 83 ********************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
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6                     THIS SYSTEM.
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23 ========================================
24 
25 
26 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
27 WELL, FOLKS, WE NOW HAVE A NEW DISK. I HOPE THAT WE CAN GET ON TO SOME
28 NEW SUBJECTS. THE GENETIC ENGINEERING ONE SEEMS TO HAVE PROMISE, AND I
29 HAVE SOME TO PROPOSE. FIRST, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY IT SEEMS THAT, WHEN 
30 THE SUBJECTS GETS ONTO SOMETHING THAT IS EXTREMELY EMOTIONAL, MOST OF THE
31 WRITERS IGNORE PART OR ALL OF WHAT THE PERSON TO WHOM THEY ARE RESPONDING 
32 SAID. THE OTHER RELATES TO THE GENDER OF THE USERS OF THIS (AND OTHER)
33 SYSTEMS. I NOTICE THAT MOST (I WOULD SAY ALL, BUT MANY DO NOT EVEN USE A  
34 PSEUDONYM, SO I CAN ONLY GUESS) OF YOU ARE MALE. AS A RELATIVELY NEW USER
35 I AM CURIOUS AS TO WHY THERE ARE NO OTHER FEMALES ON THIS BOARD, OR WITH
36 COMPUTERS OR TERMINALS IN GENERAL. DON'T YOU GUYS EVER SHARE YOUR TOYS
37 WITH YOUR GIRLFRIENDS? I KNOW THAT I WOULD NEVER HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN
38 ANY OF THIS IF A VERY CLOSE FRIEND HADN'T LET ME USE HIS TERMINAL. I
39 ALWAYS THOUGHT "OH, JUST ANOTHER GADGET. HE LOVES HIS TOYS." BUT I
40 FOUND THAT I ENJOYED THE VARIOUS BBS SYSTEMS SO MUCH, THAT I FINALLY
41 BOUGHT MY OWN COMPUTER. IT WAS MORE MONEY THAN I AM USED TO SPENDING ON
42 WHAT SOME WOULD CALL A FRIVOLOUS EXTRAVAGANCE, BUT WHAT FUN! SO LETS HEAR 
43 FROM YOUR LADY-FRIENDS, GUYS. OR AT LEAST LETS HEAR WHY THEY'RE NOT
44 INTERESTED.
45 
46 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][]
47 
48 Someone suggested that we use genetic engineering to improve
49 humanity
50 (or something like that). Well, I read an article on the subject
51 about 15 or 20 years ago! (If anyone is REALLY interested, I get
52 the month/yr of the mag as I know that Multnomah Co. Library has
53 it). A rather interesting point was made. Sometimes, you NEED those
54 "bad" recessives. The best example is sickle cell anemia. If you
55 have 2 recessives you die fairly young of sickle cell. Yet this gene
56 is COMMON in the Black population of Africa (and here!). Why?
57 After some study it developed that the combination of 1 sickle
58 cell gene and 1 "normal" gene gives GREATLY increased resistance
59 to malaria! Thus, those with the gene doubled die AND SO DO THOSE
60 WITHOUT it! 
61 	The point (in case you missed it) is that even "bad" genes
62 can be benificial (if they STAY recessive). So be careful, your
63 "improvements" might kill us all if some environmental factor
64 changes. We need as LARGE a gene pool as possible. (We also need
65 some NON-DESTRUCTIVE means of screening the gene pattern of ova
66 & sperm.)
67 ________________________________Leonard_______________________
68 
69 To the above person who wanted to know why there weren't many females on
70 the system. Have you ever seen us bunch of computer users. We are are
71 motly crew to say the least. Most of us don't have girl friends, or
72 for that matter, friends who are girls. No self-respecting female would
73 be caught dead with the likes of us. You are a lucky one, having a chance
74 to dabble for yourself in the world of computerized information systems.
75 Most females are turned off by computers after they see what the average
76 computer male looks like and acts like. Naturally there are exceptions,
77 but for the most part, us computer males are not what you would call
78 'lady-killers'. A very large percentage are not married, and many never
79 have been. It is a shame, but alas, the computer is a harsh misteriss
80 (apologies to Heinline).
81 
82 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
83 DEAR PAM,LEONARD, ET AL
84    PAM-I SHOWED MY WIFE HOW THIS BBS WORKED A COUPLE OF NIGHTS AGO AND
85 HER EYES GLAZED OVER WITH ENTHUSIASM. WOMEN COMPRISE ABOUT 10 OR 15
86 PERCENT OF PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMERS (WHAT I AM) EVEN THOUGH IBM,DEC AND
87 THE REST HAVE VERY AGGRESSIVE PROGRAMS FOR HIRING WOMEN AND THE WAGES
88 ARE HIGH. WHAT WITH THE LABOR SHORTAGE IN THIS FIELD, ANYBODY WHO COULD
89 PROGRAM AND WANTED A JOB HAS BEEN HIRED, OR NEARLY SO.
90    I DONT THINK, (RE THE LAST ENTRY BEFORE THIS) THAT WE NEED TO BE CATAGOR-
91 IZED QUITE SO HARSHLY, OLD SUN. TRUE, ON ATTENDING THE KAYPRO USERS GROUP
92 MEETING THE OTHER NIGHT I WAS SURPRISED TO FIND OUT HOW MANY HOBBY
93 AFICIONADOS LOOK LIKE ME (JEANS, BALD, BEARD, BAD POSTURE) BUT ON THE OTHER
94 HAND AT LEAST A HALF OF THEM LOOKED LIKE RUNNERS OR SWIMMERS OR SOMETHING.
95 A GROUP OF D.P.'PROFESSIONALS' WOULD HAVE A FEW MORE THREE-PIECERS IN THE 
96 CROWD, AND PROBABLY MORE WOMEN THAN I SAW AMONG THE HOBBIESTS. ANYHOW,
97 AS THE OLD SAYING GOES, YOU CAN GET A WOMEN EVEN IF YOU'RE BROKE, FAT, 
98 OR SMELL LIKE A SKUNK. BUT FORGET IT IF YOU'RE ALL THREE.
99    AS A MATTER OF FACT, THOUGH I BELIEVE THAT A LARGE PERCENTAGE
100 OF THE WOMEN HACKERS I KNOW ARE SINGLE AS WELL AS THE MEN. I THINK THIS
101 DOES NOT REALLY RELATE TO LOOKS AS SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY OK AS WELL
102 AS HAVING THE ADDED ATTRACTION OF BEING INTELLIGENT. (BEING BRIGHT IS AN
103 ATTRACTIVE FEATURE TO PEOPLE, AS LONG AS YOU CAN REFRAIN FROM BEING 
104 OBNOXIOUS ABOUT IT, OLD SUN). BUT HOW CAN PEOPLE WITH SUCH SOLITARY
105 PERSUITS MEET ANYONE? THIS IS AN OLD PROBLEM, THAT BBS'S, THE CHAT'S AND
106 CB'S MAY HELP WITH ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE PART OF THE SMALL FEMALE CONTINGENT
107 ON THESE SYSTEMS, BUT PROBABLY THE MEN WILL HAVE TO BEAR THE CROSS OF THEIR
108 AVOCATIONS WITH AS MUCH GRACE AS THEY CAN MUSTER OR FAILING THAT, GET AWAY
109 FROM THGE TERMINAL ONCE IN A WHILE AND ASK SOMEONE OUT. (**DONT** TALK
110 ABOUT COMPUTERS!)
111    MEANWHILE I'M SURE GLAD THAT PAT AT LEAST IS ON THE SYSTEM.
112    LEONARD - RIGHT, SINGLE-GENE SICKLE CELL DOES OFFER SOME PROTECTION
113 AGAINST MALARIA, BUT SO WHAT. QUININE AND SPRAYING STILL WATER TO KILL
114 THE LARVAE BOTH WORK A LOT BETTER. LETTING NEW YORK BLACKS KEEP SICKLE-CELL
115 SO THEY'LL HAVE MARGINAL PROTECTION AGAINST MALARIA SEEMS QUITE A DRACONIAN
116 MEASURE, TO SAY THE LEAST.
117    BESIDES, WHAT DOES BEING NEARSIGHTED GET ME. PROTECTION FROM TV COMMERCIALS?
118 HOW ABOUT BEING BORN MICROCEPHALIC - IS THERE A BENEFIT THERE? I THINK THE 
119 SITUATIONS YOU CAN POINT TO WHERE THERE IS SOME SLIM COMPENSATION FOR A
120 GENETIC DRAWBACK ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.
121    BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE DISCUSSION SHOULD BE LIMITED TO 'FIXING'
122 THINGS WITH GENETICS.
123    FIRST, WE MIGHT TALK ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF FINDING AND EXCISING THE
124 GENES FOR AGING. THIS IS BEGINNING TO LOOK QUITE POSSIBLE. SO MUCH SO
125 THAT A RECENTLY READ AN ARTICLE BY SOME GOVERNMENT LIBERALS PROTESTING
126 THE 'IRRESPONSIBILITY' OF SUCH A DEVELOPMENT, BECAUSE IT WOULD SCREW UP
127 ALL THEIR PLANS FOR US. OTHER PEOPLE HATE THE IDEA OF LIVING THAT LONG 
128 (SEEMS TO BE THE MAJORITY VEIW). I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF DYING BECAUSE
129 I DON'T BELEIVE IN ANY RELIGION.
130    SECOND BIG ONE - WHAT ABOUT INCREASING OUR INTELLIGENCE. WE HAVE A
131 LOT OF THEORIES THESE DAYS ABOUT WHY THE JAPANESE ARE AHEAD OF US IN SO
132 MANY WAYS AFTER BEING A FEUDAL STATE 100 YEARS AGO. USUALLY THOUGH WE 
133 DON'T DISCUSS THE FACT THAT THE AVERAGE JAPANESE HAS AN I.Q. OVER 14
134 POINTS HIGHER THAN OURS. (I.Q. EXPERTS SAY THAT I.Q. IS 80% HEREDITY)
135 WILL WE ADAPT OURSELVES OR JUST BE CONTENT WITH THE SITUATION. AND NOTHING
136 SAYS THAT WE COULDN'T ALL HAVE I.Q.S IN THE 200'S. I VISITED A G.E. LAB
137 A FEW MONTHS AGO AND NOBODY THERE WAS LAUGHING AT THESE IDEAS.
138    WHILE I WAS THERE I GOT TO SEE A BACTERIA COLONY MANUFACTUING SNOW AT
139 75 DEGREES FARENHEIT! SO DON'T BELEIVE THAT THE POSSIBILITIES ARE 
140 LIMITED BY WHAT SEEMS REASONABLE HERE. FANTASTIC THINGS CAN BE DONE.
141    AND THERE IS SOME POSSIBILITY THAT THESE IMPROVEMENTS CAN BE RETRO-
142 FITTED INTO ALL OF US, USING TECHNIQUES NOW UNDER DEVELOPMENT.
143   
144    RAMBLE,RAMBLE.......................
145                                   CHUCK
146 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
147 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
148 - Ah Chuck, you present some interesting ideas. I would surely like to see    -
149 - that bacteria colony manafacturing snow at 75 degrees Fahrenheit. And what  -
150 - practical use would be found for this?                                      -
151 -    What about the fear that a mad geneticist would create a super-human     -
152 - monster which would be better mentally and physically then the average      -
153 - human being? I know of at least one movie based on this. (Blade Runner.)    -
154 - What say you overly-intelligent people? ............................Pioneer -
155 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
156 BEFORE WE START GETTING INVOLVED IN MAKING LIFE LONGER ETC. WE SHOULD FIGURE 
157 OUT HOW TO FEED, CLOTHE, & HOUSE THOSE YHAT ARE ALREADY HERE. HOW ABOUT PUTTING
158 ALL THIS CREATIVE THINKING INTO SUCH A USEFULE PUESRSUIT. JUST THINK OF THE BY
159 PRODUCTS OF SUCH PROBLEM SOLVING. NO MORE WARS, S ETC.
160 __
161 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\:::
162 
163 genetics is genocide. How dare we dabble with the work of god. I love the
164 comment by CHUCK above. `I am afraid to die because I don`t believe in
165 any religion.' That sir, is precious. I am going to give that quote to
166 my minister so he can use it in an upcoming sermon. Thank you very much
167 for the quote. You have given every god-fearing  person who hears or
168 reads it a reason to believe in God even more.
169 
170 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
171 your attention please.
172 
173 i think that genetic engineering
174 is a wonderful idea. though the
175 applications are awesome, we should
176 not rush into taking are own dna
177 , chopping it up, turning it
178 around and making it in mass
179 quanities. as far as i know,
180 we have already taken a few small
181 steps into this field. if you
182 wanted, i could tell you all 
183 about that kind of stuff, since
184 my next door neighbor is a
185 clinical microbiologist. but
186 this subject has its limitations
187 as far as interest is concerned,
188 so i'm not going to talk anymore
189 
190                     thank you for
191                     letting m
192                     bore you to
193                     your grave.
194 
195 }{}{}{}{}{}{general berringer}{
196 
197 
198 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
199 MAD SCIENTISTS? WELL, I'VE READ BOOKS AND I'VE SEEN MOVIES THAT HAVE THAT 
200 AS A PREMISE, AND IT SEEMS TO BE A POPULAR ONE. BUT DOES ANYONE OUT THERE 
201 KNOW OF A CASE IN THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE OF A "MAD" SCIENTIST CREATING A 
202 MONSTER? WHILE IT MIGHT HAPPEN, IT IS ONLY A HYPOTHESIS UNTIL WE HAVE
203 SOME EVIDENCE OF IT HAPPENING SOMEWHERE. OTHERWISE, WHILE BEING AN
204 INTERESTING IDEA, IT CAN'T BE CONSIDERED AS EVIDENCE IN AN ARGUMENT.
205 AS FAR AS GOD IS CONCERNED, TIME AND AGAIN HE IS BROUGHT INTO THE
206 DEBATE ABOUT SOME NEW CONCEPT, SUBJECT, OR INVENTION, USUALLY WITH THE
207 PHRASE (OR SOMETHING SIMILAR), "IF GOD HAD MEANT MAN TO ________ (FILL IN 
208 THE BLANK), HE WOULD HAVE ________ (FILL IN THE BLANK). I DON'T THINK
209 THAT ANY OF US IS IN A POSITION TO SAY WHAT GOD THINKS. AND SUCH A
210 STATEMENT CANNOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE, SINCE IT CONSTITUTES HEARSAY. IT'S
211 NOT GOD SAYING IT, IT'S SOMEONE SAYING THAT GOD THINKS IT. WE CAN'T
212 ACCEPT IT IN THE ARGUMENT UNLESS WE HEAR IT FROM GOD, NOT ONE OF HIS
213 SELF-APPOINTED SPOKESMEN. REMEMBER, IF GOD HAD INTENTED MAN TO USE
214 COMPUTER TERMINALS, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN BORN WITH TELEPHONE MODULAR PLUGS
215 ON OUR FINGERS AND MICROPROCESSORS IN OUR NOSES.
216 
217 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][]
218 
219 On the other hand, consider the pressure that would exist if everyone
220 had a chance at immortality instead of just 'three score and ten' -
221 there might be a lot fewer that would be willing to throw their lives
222 away -- perhaps this is the road to peace????
223 ---------Grey Ghost---------------------------------------
224 ---------------------------------------------
225  Some one up yonder (Leanord I think) was makeing a case for not limiting
226 the gene pool. I totally agree. My basic point on that score was that we need this type if research to establish
227 our own genetic ecology. To understand
228 that there may be rescessives that are
229 needed under special curcumstances is
230 useful, but I think that most of them
231 do more harm then good and should be removed.
232 
233                  Paul
234 ----------------------------------------------------
235 
236 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
237 I think that both of you are correct. We must examine all attributes of genotypes before deciding if they are 
238 desireable. We must know if what appears to be a "bad" characteristic has some good to offer. The genetic diversity of
239 a species is what protects it from disaster by plagues and environmental changes. But then, understanding better what
240 genes allow increased immunity would be helpful. I think that the earliest uses will be the manufacture of chemicals
241 and serums that would be prohibitively expensive to make using traditional technology. Here's a specific posibility:
242 How about a edible plant, vegetable, or fruit that has proteins with amino acids that are much closer to human needs,
243 making it easier for vegetarians to have a properly balanced diet. It takes much less energy per calorie to grow
244 vegetables and grains than to produce meat. 
245                    /Elberich\
246 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
247 ****************************************************************************
248 
249 HI YOUALL!
250 
251 ****************************************************************************
252 ----------------------------------------------
253  Elberich:
254    Good ... already in progress on that one ie. a new semi-synthetic insulin
255 is already being mass produced also
256 I have read of a new strain of wheat 
257 that is suppose to be extremely harty and able to grow in very poor soil.
258    How about developments into the
259 area of 'growing' protein rather the silicon computers that are compatable
260 with human proteins ... an implantable
261 ROM that could give a person a working knowledge of a specific subject or
262 as an augmentor to our brains that
263 would be say a thought-access calculator?
264 
265                        Paul
266 
267 -----------------------------------------------
268 Would, or have, any of you seriously chosen a mate--or chosen to look further--
269 with the idea of naturally engineering your own genes for the desired traits
270 to be embodied by your offspring?  Or are we again just acting out an exercise
271 in science and philosophy?  Or is this another intellectual competition after
272 which we all say, "Let those microbiologists do all these neat things and we'll
273 take legal action against them or against their results if it offends us later
274 on."?
275 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
276 ---------------------------------------------
277    Dave:
278      Pardon ????
279                        Paul
280 ----------------------------------------------
281 
282 
283 	Consider death.  For billions of years, our matter floated around in the
284 universe, just waiting (so to speak) for us to materialize.  An instant
285 (relatively speaking) later, we die, and our matter floats away forever.  So
286 what do we value?  Our bodies, or our mind? (religious types will call it a
287 'soul')  Isn't it a waste of a sentient being to die?  That may be the origin
288 of religion:  The idea that one will not last forever is so unthinkable as to
289 demand some sort of reprieve.  Reincarnation, heaven, etc.
290 	I'm not religious, but I can easily see why others are.  Death may not
291 be a biological necessity, but so far it is an evolutionary necessity.
292 ???????????????Pardon me while I go crazy????????????????????????????????????
293 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
294 DAVE, THE IDEA OF PRODUCING A CHILD TO SPECIFICATION BY MARRYING A
295 PERSON WITH THOSE QUALIFICATIONS REMINDS ME OF THE STORY OF THE BEAUTIFUL    
296 WOMAN WHO WANTED TO HAVE A CHILD BY THE SMARTEST MAN IN THE WORLD. WHEN SHE  
297 FOUND SOMEONE SHE FELT CAME CLOSE TO WHAT SHE WANTED, SHE TOLD HIM THAT SHE  
298 WANTED A CHILD WITH HIS BRAINS AND HER BEAUTY. HE ASKED HER HOW SHE WAS SURE 
299 THAT THE CHILD WOULDN'T WIND UP WITH HER BRAINS AND HIS (LACK OF) BEAUTY.
300 THE MORAL OF THIS STORY (SORRY, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE A FAIRY TALE THE WAY I
301 TOLD IT), IS THAT YOU CAN'T PREDICT WHAT TRAITS YOUR CHILD WILL INHERIT WHEN 
302 THE GENETIC DICE IS THROWN. AND, BESIDES, I THINK THE IDEA IS TO ELIMINATE   
303 RECESSIVE TRAITS THAT ARE BAD, OR TO ADD DESIREABLE TRAITS THAT DON'T EXIST.
304 
305 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][]
306 
307 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
308 Paul,
309      I wasn't aware of those advances, and it serves to remind me of how fast things are changing.  How about this:
310 The human body is not capable of producing many of the vitamins it needs.  Some it only needs in minute quantities, 
311 and others are easily available in the food around us.  But some, like vitamin C, are not so easy to get.  We have no
312 trouble getting it because of the availability of canned fruits, supplements, etc., but it would be so much easier if 
313 we could produce them in our own bodies.  Could gene manipulation produce a change in one of our internal organs so
314 that it would produce these substances?
315 Food for thought (oh, puke, excuse me!).
316                     /Elberich\
317 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
318 STAR WARS IWOULD LIKE TO TALK
319 ?
320 HELP
321 
322 
323 
324 
325 
326 
327 HELP
328 
329 LOST
330 
331 Q
332 ................................
333 Elberich: you don't need any "gross" changes (new organs etc) to
334 make your own vitamin C. We probably STILL HAVE the required genes,
335 but they are blocked. A suprising amount of our DNA is "masked".
336 A point that will annoy some of the religious fanatics is that
337 there is an almost 99% match (in codon sequences, NOT NECESSARILY
338 genes) among human, gorilla & chimpanzee DNA. Many researchers
339 feel that it would be possible to cross humans & chimps. The
340 ONLY reason it hasn't been tried is the moral questions involved.
341 I mention all this because chimps & gorillas DO make their own
342 vitamin C! 
343 	I'm not too sure about the "superman" idea. What are you
344 going to do to "improve" us. Aside from MINOR things like the 
345 vitamin C bit, I can't think of any MAJOR changes that are possible
346 AND don't "over-specialize" us. Remember, our "big" advantage is
347 non-specialization.
348 	As for the recessives, they don't cause problems AS LONG
349 AS THEY AREN'T PAIRED. That is why I'd like to see some way of
350 "sorting" sperm & ova. (this MIGHT avoid some of the "moral
351 majority" (sic) arguments) (if they decide that sperm & unfertilized
352 ova have a "right to life"(?) I give up!) Among other considerations.
353 I think this would be MUCH safer than messing with the kid's
354 genes!
355 ___________________________Leonard_________________________
356 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
357 - Another achievement of genetic engineering is the production of a bacteria  -
358 - which stores an electrical charge. They are intended as the heart of a bio- -
359 - chip which, due to the small size of the bacteria, will contain many more   -
360 - on/off than any of the present-day microchips. The technology is currently  -
361 - being developed which will guide the bacteria to grow in an orderly fashion -
362 - and to give us the capability to read/write the electrical charge. Ain't    -
363 - that neat? Pretty soon we'll have "living" computers. (Can't you imagine    -
364 - it? Sea anemone for the keyboard, terminal made out of dozens of tiny fire- -
365 - flies, etc...) .....................................................Pioneer -
366 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
367 #####################################################################
368 US BRIGHT AND INTELLIGENT PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE MAYBE A LITTLE MORE
369 CARE WHEN TALKING TO OTHERS ON THE SYSTEM "OLD SON". IT ALWAYS
370 LOOKS SO MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT IF YOU CAN SPELL THE WORD CORRECTLY FOR THE
371 CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU ARE USING IT.
372 
373                                       SORRRY
374 
375 ########################################################################
376 
377 Genetic engineering didn't start with the biochemists. All the food you eat,
378 as well as much of the clothes you wear are already the result of genetic 
379 engineeriing. The selection of better breeds of sheep, corn wheat, etc. has
380 been going on now for about 4,000 years that we have record of, and probalbly
381 for the previous 4,000 also. An engineer doesn't need to know exactly how or
382 why something works, he only needs to know it does. An excelent example is
383 the cathedrals of Europe, all of which were built long before material science
384 could explain why arches worked; long before we could analyze the wind forces,
385 etc. They were built, though, very well thank you.
386 Yes, the sickle cell trait does offer some portection against malaria, but
387 natural evolution doesn't use perfect solutions, it only selects what is
388 available due to natural mutation. With, say, gene splicing, and a knowlege
389 of what we want, we can create genes that would give malaria protection, 
390 without the sickling. What simple modifcations could be made to a human?
391 How about the ability to efficiently eat grass? (and survive on it.) or make
392 vitamins? drink sea water? live at lower temperatures? breath sea water?
393 Living in the sea is cetainly a great specialization, it would cut us off from
394 3/5's of our planet. How about longer useful life, or better resistance to
395 infectious diseases (no cancer?) how about the ability, like some simpler
396 aninals, to regrow cut off limbs? We don't need or want bad genes in our pool!
397 Humans don't respond to changes in environment by evolving, we change the
398 environment, or wear clothes.
399 AS to the fear we could create a monster, with our 3 billion humans, it would
400 be quite a superhuman who could take over the world, and such a being might
401 protect us from the human dictators who are doing it already.
402 I don't fear science, I fear ignorance.
403 //////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\1230 17-aug-83\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
404 
405 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
406 I DON'T THINK THAT DOMESTICATION EXACTLY QUALIFIES AS GENETIC ENGINEERING. 
407 THAT IS ARTIFICIAL SELECTION OF EXISTING CHARACTERISTICS, PICKING THOSE
408 THAT BEST FIT YOUR NEEDS. BESIDES, AS YOU POINTED OUT, IT TAKES A LOOOONG
409 TIME. HOW ABOUT ONE THAT ISAAC ASIMOV SUGGESTED A SOME TIME AGO: ALLOWING  
410 WOMEN TO BE FERTILE ONLY BY CHOICE, OR ONLY AT SPECIFIC TIMES, WITH
411 OBVIOUS SIGNS OF WHEN THOSE TIMES ARE. NO MORE ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL,
412 NO MORE PRE-MENSTRUAL SYNDROME, NO MORE FEELING LOUSY, AND NO MORE SHOTGUN 
413 WEDDINGS!! ANY WOMAN THAT BECAME PREGNANT WOULD HAVE DONE SO BY CHOICE.
414 
415 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][]
416 
417 *********************************************************
418      The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 
419 Hamfair/Computer show Aug 27 9-6, and Aug 28 9-3 at MT.
420 Hood Community College gym. There will be comerical 
421 diaplays,food and swap tables (for radio and computer items
422 only). The admission is $2.00 ,12 and under free. Swap 
423 tables are $5.00 . For more information contact Bob at 
424 771-xxxx.
425 **********************Bob********************************
426 The proceeding was a paid political
427             announcement.
428 ************************************** 
429 BOB WISHES IT WERE PAID FOR!
430 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~WHAT?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
432 
433 
434 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
435 
436 HUH?
437 
438 -----------------------------------------------
439   Pam:
440    Would you like to propose a mechanism to
441 accomplish your suggestion?
442 
443                         Paul
444 -----------------------------------------------
445 
446 Yes, domestication is definitely "engineering", it changed the breed ,
447 for a specific use. (It may not have been intentional.) Pam, you speak of 
448 "engineering" a better woman; but should conraception be only a woman's
449 choice? Male cycles being less regular and less pronounced I don't know
450 about pre-menstrual problems, you may be right there.
451     A word of caution: the first mass produced drug that was designed by use
452 of a knowlege of molecular biochemistry was thalidomide. It is still the safest
453 known tranquilizer: massive overdoses don't kill, side effects are rare; but
454 one side effect was enough: when given to a pregnant woman...... The studies
455 on lower animals didn't show this effect, because it is specific to higher
456 mammals. Right about now the first intentional release of gene spliced
457 bacteria into the outside environment is being done, near Tule lake, norther
458 California. Why? To reduce frost damage to potatos. Seems the wild strain
459 of bacteria cause frost nucleation that damages the spuds, the hope is that
460 the new ones, without the frost gene will be safer. Now: what else does it do?
461 Perhaps we will know later..... Is 300 miles far enough??
462 ////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
463 Just read the last of disk B. A reference to democracy was answered by a claim
464 that we are a republic. True, but who elects the senators? We, the people,
465 still have power, a lot of it. (If you don't believe me, why do the politicians
466 spend so much time and effort getting elected?) As to the irate taxpayer, who
467 believes that taxes prevents him from hiring someone: all expenses, including
468 wages, are tax deductions:his claim that he needs someone implies he would
469 be some productive value out of him (more income), so I don't think he 
470 understands what he is saying. Since he taught himself everything he knows, I
471 also suspect he does'nt read, because someone else wrote the books, or speak
472 the common tongue invented by someone else way back when. We owe one hell of
473 alot to society. If we only paid taxes on what we, individually, used, you had
474 better never need any social bennies, because they are paid for by all of us.
475 He also would be rather shocked how little he would get back if we allowed
476 him a rebate on what we would save if his kid isn't in public school. (let's
477 see: one less desk, but the teacher is still there, the room, the heat, the
478 janitor, the building, land, principal,lights,busses... But 1 fewer book.
479 Give the man about $30, I think he's worth it.
480 /////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
481 ?
482 IF YOUR A STAR WARS SAGA FAN LEAVE MESSAGE
483 IF YOU A***********************STAR WARS SAGA FAN**********************
484 PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE TO JILL,IAM NEW TO THIS SYSTEM.I REALY LIKE THE SAGA I W
485 
486 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
487 PAUL:
488      SURE!!!  IT WAS MENTIONED EARLIER THAT HUMANS ARE THE ONLY CREATURES 
489 NOT CAPABLE OF MANUFACTURING THEIR OWN VITAMIN C, AND THAT THE ABILITY
490 WAS PROBABLY STILL PRESENT, BUT MASKED. HUMANS FEMALES ARE ALSO THE ONLY
491 CREATURES THAT ARE ALWAYS SEXUALLY RECEPTIVE. MOST ANIMALS ENTER ESTRUS AT   
492 SPECIFIC TIMES AND UNDER SPECIFIC STIMULI. IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY
493 ANTHROPOLOGISTS THAT HUMAN FEMALES HAVE DEVELOPED CONTINUAL RECEPTIVITY 
494 BECAUSE OF OUR HUNTER/GATHERER STATUS THROUGHOUT MUCH OF OUR DEVELOPMENT   
495 FROM EARLIER TYPES. IT WAS NECESSARY FOR THE FEMALES TO BE ALWAYS READY
496 SINCE COPULATION MIGHT ONLY OCCUR RARELY. NOTE THAT EVEN OUR CLOSEST
497 RELATIVES AMOUNG THE GREAT APES ENTER A PERIOD OF "HEAT", AND ARE
498 UNRECEPTIVE THE REST OF THE TIME. SO, IF THE ABILITY TO PRODUCE VITAMIN C IS 
499 MASKED, MIGHT NOT THIS ALSO BE MASKED?  PERSONALLY, I WOULD FIND IT BORING
500 TO ONLY BE RECEPTIVE PART OF THE TIME, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ORGASM IS
501 RELATED TO OVULATION, OR I WOULD ONLY HAVE ONE WHEN I WAS GOING TO GET
502 PREGNANT. UHH.....I HOPE I DIDN'T EMBARRESS ANY OF YOU GUYS. MAYBE I SHOULD
503 DELETE THAT LAST LINE. OH WELL........
504 
505 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][]
506 
507 	Don't consider the fact that humans don't produce their own vitamin C a flaw. 
508 After all, it is probable that this came about because humans were almost always
509 able to get enough for their requirements from the available food.  In fact, 
510 there are many chemicals that COULD be produced by the body, IF not enough were
511 consumed.  These reactions are sometimes inefficient, so the body would 'rather'
512 not bother making them.
513 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
514 WELL, LET'S SEE WHAT THE LASTEST USE OF YOUR TAX DOLLAR IS BEING PUT TO.
515 AHH, HERE'S ONE. A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEATH; IT
516 SEEMS THAT AFTER A LONG STUDY, THEY HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT
517 "INDIVIDUALS IN POOR HEALTH ARE ALMOST SEVEN TIMES AS FREQUENT USERS OF
518 PHYSICIAN SERVICES AS THOSE IN EXCELENT HEALTH." THAT'S RIGHT, THE
519 GOVERNMENT SPENT $180,000 TO PRODUCE A 40 PAGE REPORT THAT SAYS SICK
520 PEOPLE SEE DOCTORS MORE THEN HEALTHY PEOPLE. WHAT'S NEXT? A REPORT THAT
521 DEAD PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKLY TO BE BURYED THEN LIVE PEOPLE?
522 ********************************************************************
523 
524 I see we have a vote from BAD to keep people on welfare instead of putting
525 them work. Anybody else have any vote? 
526 By the way BAD, you seem to be in need of a business education yourself
527 as you have shown a distinct lack of understanding of cash flow.
528 You have to have the money first before you can use it. (or at least with
529 in a reasonable period of time.) Also, you do not get instant return upon
530 hiring a new employee. It can take anywhere from a month (if they are
531 already trained) to a year or more (if they are not trained) to get a
532 return on the investment. Also, I wonder if you realize exactly how much
533 it costs an employer to hire someone. Did you know that on an average
534 it costs the employer what you make in wages for every thing you don't 
535 see behind your paycheck. Did you also know that in most businesses that
536 wages are the single largest expenditure of the business, often completely
537 overshadowing all other costs? I do not agree at all with your assesment
538 of the Irrate Taxpayers problem.
539 +++++++++++++ Not the Irrate Taxpayer ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
540 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
541 JUST A LITTLE THOUGHT RE EMPLOYEES: FROM WHERE I SIT THE EMPLOYERS WOULD HAVE 
542 NOTHING IF IT WASN'T FOR THE EMPLOYEE!
543 JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK DOES ALL THE DIRTY WORK TO MAKE YOU ABLE TO PAY 
544 TAXES AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. IF EMPLOYERS ARE SO GREAT THEN LET THEM DO THEIR 
545 OWN THING WITHOUT ANY HELP THEN WE WILL SEE JUST HOW SELF-MADE THEY ARE!! 
546 THERE MAY BE SOME EXCEPTIONS TO THE ABOVE BUT IT IS PROBABLY LESS THAT 1/100TH 
547 OF 1%.
548 
549 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
550 What are you talking about? Did you read the messages in question?
551 The complaint was about not being able to hire an additional 
552 employee. I'm not even sure what you are babbling about unless
553 it is simple hatred of your employer. If you hate it that much,
554 then why don't you find another job?
555 ++++++++++++ Not the Irrate Taxpayer +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
556 
557 MAYBE HE'S A PHONE COMPANY EMPLOYEE WHO'S JUST TICKED OFF
558 AT EMPLOYERS IN GENERAL?
559 
560 ..................................................................
561 
562 Should I change disks? Things seem to be going rather hot and 
563 heavy here. And it will certainly fill up before I get back.
564 Yes I guess I better, or then I'll be the butt of all the 
565 complaints that evryone seems to enjoy throwing around here.
566 **** CISTOP MIKEY THE ARTFULL DODGER ***** 18 AUG 83 ***********
567 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
568 MIKEY, NO MATTER WHAT IS SAID BY THE VARIOUS PARTIES ON THIS SYSTEM, WE
569 ALL LOVE YOU!!!!! YOU PROVIDE US WITH A GREAT WAY TO EXCHANGE IDEAS, BLOW 
570 OFF STEAM, AND IN GENERAL HAVE A GOOD TIME. AND FORGET WHAT SOMEONE SAID  
571 EARLIER ON THIS DISK ABOUT "DEMANDING CHANGE" ON THIS SYSTEM. NO OTHER
572 SYSTEM IS AS ENJOYABLE AS THIS ONE, WITH ITS FREE-FORM STYLE, AND THE
573 ABILITY TO CHANGE PERSONNA. BY THE WAY, WHERE DID ALL THE FANTASY GO?
574 WHEN I FIRST TRIED THIS SYSTEM MONTHS AGO, POETRY AND FANTASY WAS 
575 RAMPANT. NOW IT IS MOSTLY A DEBATING SOCIETY. I'M NOT COMPLAINING, JUST   
576 CURIOUS.
577 
578 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][]
579 
580 beats me.
581 .........
582 Nope.... Fantasy blew out with storms....
583 -=-=-=-=-=Coo ra!  Mikey knows, Pam...It take a delicate and inventive
584 touch to keep that spirit alive.  Think of lace, think of sighing reeds
585 blending their music with the stream's voice...and add a woman's gentle
586 laugh...there you have it.  Now take YOUR figurative pen, Pam, and invoke
587 the magic yourself; though I've seen but little of you, I sense you are
588 capable of it...Who am I?  Suffice to say, a lady.-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
589 I HAVE TO AGREE WITH PAM ON THE LAST STATEMENT-THIS IS ONE BOARD I
590 SURE DO LIKE BECAUSE YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT -USING CONSIDERATION
591 OF OTHERS OR NOT-IT''S CALLED FREE FORM AND OUT OF THE 3 STATES AND
592 BOARDS I'VE USED-BACKWATER BEATS THEM ALL-I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO
593 COMMENT ON THE VARIOUS THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT BUT GIVE
594 MICKEY **********THREE CHEERS***********THE O.J.KID***************
595 ****.*****.*******************************************"********.*****OFF

