NUMBER OF LINES: 994
001=Usr:0 Null User         06/30/87 20:34  Msg:0 Call:0  Lines:19
  1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask...
  2$************************* INSTALLED: 6 OCT 87 **************************************
  3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II)  Mike Day System operator
  4$**************************************************************************
  5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
  6$                    PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
  7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately 
  8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general
  9$public.  No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.  As the
 10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all
 11$messages which I may find offensive.  Because of the limited size of the
 12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data
 13$can be saved).  To leave a message, type 'ENTER'.  Use ctrl/C to get out
 14$the ENTER mode.  The message is automatically stored.  If after entering
 15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to
 16$replace the line.  To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up.
 17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
 18$**************************************************************************
 19$ 
002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      10/06/87 20:31  Msg:647 Call:4248  Lines:3
 20 Scintillate, scintillate, asteroid minific.
 21 *****************************************************
 22  
003=Usr:29                   10/06/87 23:31  Msg:648 Call:4251  Lines:37
 23 	Why had he ever tried to rob that jewelry store thought the thief. He
 24 should have known that the techies would have some damned machine guarding it.
 25 Not a simple spell he could circumvent... oh no..
 26 	Well it was all irrelevant now. He'd tried. And now he was trying to 
 27 outrun a couple of patrollers....
 28 	"<crackle> .. I've got on the sensors again Larry.."
 29 	" where?"
 30 	"quadrant 9" said George as he swooped towards the thief.
 31 	The thief looked started running again just before the patroller came in
 32 sight at the end of the alley. Glancing back over his shoulder he saw him. 
 33 	Only one chance now, maybe he could make those cursed flightpaks work
 34 for him. He quit trying to keep to cover and made an all out dash for the next
 35 section.
 36 	"I've got him on sensor now, George. I'll be there in a sec.."
 37 	"I SEE HIM! He won't get away now!"
 38 	George went to full throttle on an intercept course.
 39 	"George! NO!!! He's heading for the sector boundary..."
 40 	"So what I'm not letting him get away just because he's left our
 41 sector.." his vioce trailed off as he realized what his partner meant. The next
 42 sector was high-magic/low-tech. He tried to pull up.
 43 	He was 20 feet up and moving at 50 mph when he crossed the boundary.
 44 All his instrument went dead and began to follow a ballistic trajectory.
 45 	His partner landed at the boundary and ran for the nearest "call box"
 46 to get help. He placed his palm on the pillar.
 47 	An image formed above it.
 48 	"What are you doing in our sector, techy?"
 49 	"My partner was chasing a thief and flew over the boundary! Get me a
 50 medic. He's in pretty bad shape!"
 51 	The wizard on duty turned to another crystal ball. "We've got a techy
 52 patroller down in our area at pillar 17. Send a cleric and a squad of the
 53 watch."
 54 	"They'll be there in a few minutes, do what you can for him in the
 55 meantime."
 56 	Larry left the pillar and started giving George first aid. Two minutes
 57 later a flying carpet approached with the cleric....
 58 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 59 (just had to point out that this new world has some "unique" problems)
004=Usr:174                   10/07/87 10:19  Msg:649 Call:4259  Lines:33
 60 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Home^^^^^^^
 61 Well, all ye people, today I'm going to entertain you all with a few words of
 62 wisdom that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've posted in the past
 63 few days.  I can hear the sigh of relief resounding through the valley,
 64 echoing off the mountains...very funny, kids!!I know I'm not that bad.  Most of
 65 the time....OK, OK, so I'm a f###ing preacher, give me a break!!
 66   Heard an interesting idea about the presidency...How about Carl Sagan, Frank
 67 Zappa, and Ralph Nader all holding the office simultaneously, like a three 
 68 person commision.  Carl Sagan, as annoying as he is, is a brilliant man, and he
 69 doesn't like the "defense plan" Mr. Reagan has given us.  Frank Zappa is just
 70 about as open minded as they come, and is also extremely intelligent.  Ralph
 71 Nader is, and has been, and most likely be, the consumers advocate wherever
 72 one is needed.   ***Interesting theory,wouldn't you say??
 73     Nuff of that!! Anyone get a look at that full moon?  We Werewolves have 
 74 a real interst in the phase of the moon...think about it....
 75 %%%%%%%%%%%%%and now, a break into the classics%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 76 Weep, daughter of a royal line,
 77 A Sire's disgrace, a realm's decay;
 78 Ah!  happy if each tear of thine
 79 Could wash a fathers fault away!
 80  
 81 Weep--for thy tears are virtue's tears-
 82 Auspicious to these suffering isles;
 83 And be each drop in future years
 84 Repaid thee by thy people's smiles!
 85  
 86               Lord Byron    March, 1812
 87 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%don't we feel better now?%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 88 OOP! AAAAACCCKKK!!! i've been attacked by millions of tiny wariors, striving to
 89 destroy me from the inside out...yes, I've caught the creeping crud that's been
 90 ravishing the populace of our fair city.  So, with this last farewell, I leave
 91 you to drown my apponent in orange juice and oatmeal.  Fare thee Well.
 92 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
005=Usr:164                   10/07/87 14:46  Msg:650 Call:4260  Lines:5
 93@ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WERE THREE LITTLE DUCKS
 94 ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WERE THREE LITTLE BIRDS,
 95 THEY FLEW OVER THE OCEAN AND LIVED OFF OF THE WATER,
 96 ONE DAY THEY SAW A BIG SHIP, AND IT WAS SINKING,
 97 THE OIL FLOWED, AND THEY DIED.
006=Usr:174                   10/07/87 17:58  Msg:651 Call:4264  Lines:13
 98 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^now i live here, too^^
 99 Justin--Mudgaurd---I like it...
100 Leonard--You needn't worry about your silicon chips...If there is no alternativ
101 there is no alternative.  In that case, tight inventory, and recycling would do
102 the trick.
103 The Person From St Helens(sorry, I can't remember!)--my apologies.  The stuff 
104 gets really nasty, doesn't it??
105 Fable Master--Yes, I'm sure I could find out your identity--the question is--do
106 I want to?  Maybe anonymity is a good thing...I could get in a lot of trouble,
107 I'm sure.  You do seem to have a good grasp on my situation.   And yes, the 
108 Blackwing does perk right up.  You can tell I mind terribly(choke, choke).
109 Soomething about gag reflexes...
110 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YHE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
007=Usr:174                   10/07/87 18:29  Msg:652 Call:4265  Lines:36
111 (omigawd, I can't even spell my own name.  Scary, scary...muse)
112 ****************************Justin the Blue************************************
113  
114 ......from across space the great antenna recieves a broadcast...it's scratchy
115 and weak....Yes they have the Cosby show out there, too....
116  
117 ......When in Frisco, they come for you...the performance artists. Resisting
118 unseen walls, walking against unfelt winds...the annoy you. They make you want
119 to blow them away, to Rambo them into nonexistance. Please restrain yourself.
120 Please practice self-control. Remember, A MIME IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE.
121  
122                            The Latest Sojourn
123     I come expecting nothing
124     And may not be disappointed
125     Another new one emerges
126     To entertain me with its new ways
127  
128     Life is not what it seems
129     And lately, niether am I
130     How do I predict what else will happen
131     Or do I want to know
132     Now and again it occurs to me
133     That part of me has gone forever
134     But then again I realize
135     That I'm better now than before
136  
137     I guess I just had to learn the different
138  
139 what it was. Justin Klein
140 ***********************The end for now. Miriam's licking people.************
141  
142  
143    Remember, Mudgard loves you. Please be patient. It cant help itself
144    But dont touch it. You dont know where its been
145  
146    My last Smarta*s comment for the day. I promise. Justin Klein
008=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson  10/07/87 19:52  Msg:653 Call:4267  Lines:5
147 Unfortunately, some irreplaceable chemicals (such as the HF I mentioned before)
148 are not recycleable as they are consumed by the process. That's why the typical
149 legislative solution never works. There *isn't* a simple general rule to apply
150 as every case is different.
151 ______________________________Leonard__________________________________________
009=Usr:21                   10/07/87 20:16  Msg:654 Call:4268  Lines:1
152  
010=Usr:174                   10/08/87 10:05  Msg:655 Call:4289  Lines:18
153 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
154 LEONARD-  you really enjoy giving me a hardtime, don't you?   Since it's rather
155 obvious that your particular type of industry is not causing problems, and
156 that what you're doing cannot be done in any other way, the laws would not 
157 apply as much to you as it would to the mill in St Helens.  Make sense?  Don't
158 worry...noone's trying to kill industry, or discourage industry from comming
159 to Oregon.  I know that every case is different, and so do the people who
160 are drafting the Toxics Use Reduction Act.  That's why it's being built to work
161 with companies individually, to find out what works best in their particular 
162 case.  Lighten up, will ya?
163 **********************
164 And I was not licking people--I told Justin that I'd better not lick him, 
165 becaue I've got the creepin' crud.  Later, he made a crude remark, and I said
166 that I WOULD lick him.  The only thing I licked was A.I.R. and that's most
167 likely where I got this dratted bug.  From a previous licking.  Acttually, it
168 was just a peck, but i guess that's enough.  Zephyrus, you ought to be ashamed
169 of your self, giving a sweet deity like me the flu.  
170   I promise, I'm not licking the terminal, or the keyboard, or the modem.
011=Usr:170                   10/08/87 13:07  Msg:656 Call:4292  Lines:19
171 /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
172      Well, well, well...the old Inn is alive and kicking as usual, and my,
173 aren't the debates lively this season!  I love it - but I have to stop and
174 think every once in a while, and I can't read at 300 baud and think ath the
175 same time.  Oh, well...
176      Mudgard, indeed...let's kick this out to the populace and see if anyone,
177 well, ... We need a name for a house.  At the moment the residents include 
178 myself, the Muse, a Blackwing, A.I.R., a certain Flying Dutchman, and 11 cats.
179 (Leave it to VanderVecken to always have some cats around...) The suggested
180 names have been Bedlam and the Wasteland (both rejected by the entire populace)
181 ,Midgard (Mudguard? Forget it.),Metropolis, And Beta Fi Delta (if anyone makes 
182 Beta Infidelta jokes they'll get kicked - or I'll send the Muse to lick their 
183 nose!).  We want to give the place a name, but we have found that to name a 
184 thing is to give it a label that it will live up to - hence the rejection of 
185 the first two names.  If you have any hints, suggestions, heckling, or ob-
186 noxious comments, just let us know...
187 /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/Luingil\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\(they'rehere..)/\/\/\/\/\/\
188  
189 i'm still not licking anything.  i'm such a good little muse...
012=Usr:11                   10/08/87 13:37  Msg:657 Call:4294  Lines:3
190 Then aMUSE us with a song, a poet, a sonnet of deep emotional binding, the
191 likes of which mortal man has not seen, nay not experienced in many moons.
192 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
013=Usr:159                   10/08/87 17:11  Msg:658 Call:4299  Lines:18
193 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
194 Oh my, variance land!  I thought a law had to apply to everyone equally to be
195 fair, a waste reduction act would be law for the Silicon Chips as well as
196 the icky Paper Mill.     Anyway, I was talking about a FEDERAL law, not a 
197 STATE law.  Industry cannot move to 'another state' if the law is federal,
198 although it could go overseas, in which case hopefully it would
199 move into the southern hemisphere.  It seems to me that a toxic waste act,
200 like the one described, is too specific to be useful, except in the area of
201 generation of an incredible number of variances.
202      When are we going to get space manufacturing? If those nasty chemicals
203 were shot off toward the sun, or maybe mercury, during manufacture, then we
204 would all breathe easier down here.  It is a shame that 1/10th of the effort
205 spent on pollution control is not spent on the space program, we might then
206 be alot more 'advanced' then we are now.
207      I want to know when those gobbelers at NASA are going to get off their
208 butts and stop trying to study the science of blame placing. I want some
209 more space shuttle runs!
210 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++000001TED+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
014=Usr:173                   10/08/87 18:47  Msg:659 Call:4301  Lines:7
211 -=-=-=-
212 Here! Here!  Space!  The final frontier!
213@ 
214@ 
215       L.B.  \__/
216              oo
217 -=-=-=-
015=Usr:119                   10/09/87 01:08  Msg:660 Call:4312  Lines:43
218 <____>-----    <--- I don't know what that thing does, but it's chasing ME!
219@And so, VanderVecken staggered back into the Inn.  "I should haave known that
220 And so, VanderVecken staggered into the Inn once again.  "I should have known
221 better than to follow that redhead," he muttered to himself as he stepped over
222@the sleeping alien next to the bar.  One vae
223 the sleeping alien next to the bar.  "One very spiked coffee, please!," he
224 called to the bartender.  Next question:  What was the sleeping alien on the
225 floor?  *Who* was the sleeping alien on the floor?  And how in ghod's name
226 was he sleeping during happy hour (1 - 2 am) at the Backwater Inn ?!
227 Admittedly, some creatures had some amazingly talents for ignoring the usual
228 regulars, (for example, deafness helps...a little...), but few could sleep
229 even through this ruckus ... except of course for those who were already
230 passed out, and although this fellow was quite green around the gills, he
231 smelled sober... Or at least there was enoughbrine in the air to make it a
232 moot point.   Hmmmm, definitely puzzling...  
233 After finishing his turkey sandwich (a house deluxe, complete without
234 anchovies, and his first solid meal in... er... um... you get the idea!), he 
235@ 
236@ 
237 looked down and noticed one tentacle sliding across the floor.  Kicking the
238 slime rat away from the hapless sleeper, he reached down to move the fellow.
239 "C'mon, this is no place for a SOBER sleeper!," he dragged the still 
240 unidentifiable sleeper to a well-lit corner (where's a dark corner when you
241 need one?  Whatever happened to artistic license? Sheesh!).  Shortly 
242 thereafter (three short beers later, really), a short man walked up to the
243 table.  "I'll offer you 4300 credits for that carcass," the vermillion-suited
244 man said.  "I'm afraid he's not dead," VanderVecken replied.  "More's the
245 pity... Could you perhaps fix this for me???," the man asked, slicking back
246 his well-greased hair.  "Sorry, not my style.  Barkeep!  One Lox and Bagel
247 over here, please!"  At this point, the Peter Lorre lookalike slung off,
248 only to disappear into the crowd.  Damn, I'd wanted to put a tracer on him.
249 Oh well, you have a good idea and the author writes it out!  "Did I here
250 something about a *Bagel*???," the now bright-eyed alien cried.  "No, that
251 was just... a... distraction... How did you do that?," VanderVecken asked in 
252 response to the Bagel and Cream Cheese which had appeared in the middle of
253 the table.
254 "It's all a matter of probability... I just picked the most likely the 
255 universe to wake up in.  You got lucky, and I was hungry.  Would you please
256 pass the mustard?"
257 "What must... oh."
258 "Yes, that mustard.  Thank you."
259 "Perhaps you should explain at length," VanderVecken prompted.
260 !EM gnisahc s`ti tub, seod gniht siht tahw wonk t`nod I --->  ----<___>
016=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson  10/10/87 00:12  Msg:661 Call:4336  Lines:5
261 VanderVecken: 
262 	please contact:
263 			        /agora
264 			leonard@-bucket
265 				\qiclab
017=Usr:183                   10/10/87 01:00  Msg:662 Call:4338  Lines:3
266 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
267 And as the great yawning void began to  open, so she entered the Gemworld.
268 *=*=*=*=Amethyst*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
018=Usr:159                   10/10/87 11:06  Msg:663 Call:4340  Lines:1
269 WHO CARES
019=Usr:174                   10/10/87 11:57  Msg:664 Call:4342  Lines:37
270 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ha,ha,my place now!^^^^^^
271 Leonard--Perhaps you misunderstood--The Toxics Use Reduction Act is a state
272 bill, not federal...(WHAT??!!?!You mean...but...ah,hell...NOW YOU TELL ME!!)
273  
274 And if an industry is not breaking a law,even though it hasn't been put
275 on the books yet, and which,when passed, will be designed so as not to
276 penalize companies for using the only thing that does the job,then they won;t 
277 be punished, will they.  I knew there was some miscomunication going on here!
278@..............................
279 ###################and now to aMUSE with a vew lines###########################
280  
281 There she weaves by night and day
282 a magic web of colors gay,
283 She has heard a whisper say
284 A curse is on her if she stay
285@ 
286 to look down on Camelot.
287 She knows not what the curse may be
288@ 
289 and so she weaveth steadily,
290 And little other care hath she,
291    The Lady of Shallot.
292  
293 But in her web she still delights
294 To weave the mirrors magic sights
295 For often through the silent nights,
296 a funeral, with plumes and lights
297 And music went to Camelot.
298 Or when the moon was overhead
299 Came two young lovers, lately wed.
300 "I am half sick of shadows," said
301    The Lady of Shallot.
302                        Tennyson
303 ############################ah,isn't that wonderful?###########################
304 now, I'm going to go try and convince the Blackwing to take my to the ballet.
305 A girl has to have SOME fun, after all!      love and tapeworms!
306 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
020=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson  10/10/87 15:30  Msg:665 Call:4343  Lines:46
307 Muse: I didn't make the comments about Federal vs State regulations.
308 And sorry, but from earlier msgs, "toxic chemicals will be taxed so as to 
309 discourage their use". This *is* penalizing industry as it will be an added
310 cost that has no relation whatsoever to their discharges (if any) of toxic
311 wastes. In fact, such a policy will encourage using the minumum legal amount of
312 treatment on wastes so as to cut costs. (as I pointed out, this is likely
313 cheaper than redesigning the process).
314 	Any proper approach must penalize on emmissions/discharges not on 
315 feedstocks. In some industries the toxic feedstocks are converted into product
316 (which may or may not be toxic) and non-toxic wastes. In others, non-toxic
317 feedstock results in high-toxic wastes.
318 	As a more down-to-earth example, if your goal is to reduce the pollutants
319 emitted by autos, which will work better: imposing a maximum emission level
320 or taxing gasoline "to encourage reduced use". 
321 	Many people already re-tune their cars to increase gas mileage as soon
322 as possible after going thru DEQ. They don't care that it raises emissions, 
323 the are trying to save on gasoline costs.
324 	The only way to be sure that a chemical quits being used is to outlaw it.
325 And in fact in one of the previous messages, I thought you said that the 
326 eventual goal was to do just that!
327 	I just went back and re-read drive B. Your postings of stuff from the 
328 new law includes such phrases as "mandatory reduction in use of toxics", 
329 "Eventual elimination" (regarding cancer-causing or birth defect causing
330 chemicals), and then there's one I'd missed "citizens and workers will have a
331 right to know how toxics are used and plans for reduction".
332 	Why do I object to the last? Because it would require disclosure of trade
333 secrets. Trade secrets are (unfortunately) often the only way to keep the
334 competition from stealing your process. Patents are regularly overturned when
335 challenged in court, and some countries don't allow patenting of some kinds of
336 processes. (Example: the USgoverment buys most drugs from Italian companies
337 which are lowest bidders. The are the lowest bidders because Italy dsoesn't
338 allow patenting drugs, thus they just obtain copies of all US drug patents and
339 start producing the drugs. *They* don't have to pay off the research.)
340 	If you are really concerned with toxic wastes, quit trying to mess with
341 the input end of things when what you are worried about is the output.
342 Especially when the very wording of the law shows invalid assumptions. (ie that
343 any given toxic chemical's use *can* be eliminated).
344 	And just what are the defintions being used for "cancer-causing" &
345 "causes birth defects". Sugar is more toxic in those senses than are the 
346 artificial sweeteners (fact: sugar causes cancer in something like 1/1000 the
347 dose that cyclamates do. But sugar is "natural" so it doesn't fall under the
348 same regulations)
349 	I'd feel a lot better about this if the laws didn't make distinctions
350 between "chemicals" and "natural products". Then the laws would *have* to be
351 more reasonable. 
352 ______________________________Leonard__________________________________________
021=Usr:130                   10/10/87 17:28  Msg:666 Call:4345  Lines:32
353 <o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>
354      It's been so long.  I begin to think that it is over and 
355 forgotten, and then I read something, see or hear something that 
356 reminds me of you, and the emotions come flooding back. I find 
357 myself staining my pillow with tears again.
358      Why can't I let it go? I still cling to the hope that you will 
359 return. I know that you no longer care about me and will never let 
360 me into your life again.  And yet I still am unable to let go. 
361      You were everything to me. You made my life worth living. 
362 I cherished each moment spent with you I never wanted them to end. 
363 It would not be a lie to say that they were among the happiest times 
364 of my life. 
365      I like to think that I understand why you left, but I don't 
366 really. When it comes to you I am unable to think clearly. You were 
367 a friend to me. You were the love of my life. I could talk to you. 
368 I could open up to you and speak my deepest and innermost thoughts. 
369 But you were never able to accept me. 
370      I knew that it would end the way it did, yet I never wanted to 
371 beleive it. I still don't want to believe it. I am unable to accept 
372 that you are gone, and yet you are. Where are you now? Do you ever 
373 think of me? Have you forgotten me? Am I just an unpleasent part of 
374 your past that you have put behind you? 
375      The only thing I ever wanted from you was your love in return, 
376 but of course that was the one thing you could never give me. 
377 I would have done anything to hear those three words "I love you".
378 And of course that was why you left, because I did. 
379      In my muddled thinking I did not see that I was hurting you. 
380 There was so little that you would  let me do that I over-did 
381 everything that you did let me do. I wanted to please you, I wanted 
382 to gain your favour. I wanted you to care for me as I cared for you. 
383 I wanted to be your friend.
384 <o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>
022=Usr:54                   10/12/87 02:20  Msg:667 Call:4368  Lines:2
385 Chris:  Call BP for important info (661-xxxx).  The Black Knight
386 ----------------------------------------------------------------
023=Usr:174                   10/12/87 09:04  Msg:668 Call:4371  Lines:25
387 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
388  
389 LEONARD--As hs been previously mentioned, "the law" has yet to be completed,
390 much less ratified.  As of yet, the Toxics Use Reduction act is still just
391 a theory.  With minds like yours running aout it will stay just a theory.
392 Attempts o controll emmissions have been made, and have failed.  Provisions 
393 have been made to clean up the messes left by careless, or uninformed
394 industries.  the whole idea is to find some other method that will work just 
395 as well, and some cases better, so that emmissions and messes will no longer
396 be a problem.  Obviously, it doesn't matter to you that we've been shitting
397 in our own nest for too long.  Or maybe you don't mind the stench...but in
398 the name of the gods, stop making it so bloody difficult for those of us who
399 do give a damn.
400 **************************************
401 Any ideas for the new house name ?
402 **************************************
403 WANTED--Loving home for adorable kittens.  Warning--this will be checked-
404 no woking the cat allowed.  make reply to muse 
405 **************************************
406 Genius ex-waitress looking for full time work.  Am not cut for activism--my
407 feet get too tired.  Areas of interest/experience: library, lab prep, antiques,
408 theater--on and off stage, some clerical, child care--ages birth-12yrs. 
409 passable artist,musician.  If you have any ideas, openings, and need someone
410 quick, clever, and a hell of a lot of fun, give me a call. I learn fast.  
411 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
024=Usr:4 Milchar           10/12/87 13:19  Msg:669 Call:4377  Lines:1
412 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Grannlurk %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
025=Usr:159                   10/12/87 16:37  Msg:670 Call:4381  Lines:49
413 TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS
414 Well folks, I see the Great Toxin Debate rages on. 
415   MUSE- I don't think that Leonard is trying to block passage of your law,
416 so phrases like 'Shitting in our nest' just tend to get people emotional. He is
417 raising some valid points- such as emission control.
418 The analogy between auto emissions and industry emissions is flawed,
419 autos and device polluters unlike any other, just because they are mobile.
420 It is not all that easy for industry to move around- compared to a car!
421 So, attempts to block emissions on cars have to be different than industry,
422 and so far emission control on autos has failed, as it should.
423 Industry emission control, on the other hand, is alive and very sucessful, 
424 in the areas where it has been implemented.  Please don't knock it as not
425 working, there is an entire industry that does nothing but make money
426 by manufacturing pollution control equipment. I think they would vigorously
427 dispute your claim that emission control does not work.
428    
429                          The auto pollution game.
430     Cars today represent a significant source of pollution, in some areas
431 (such as L.A.)the major.  Yet, the entire area of auto emissions is almost
432 a complete failure.
433     This is due to one reason- attempts to restrict auto emissions have 
434 sacrificed performance in almost all cases.
435 People are real funny about cars- they will tell you anything but when 
436 observed with a car they always prefer the more powerful one-if all factors
437 are otherwise equal. Unfortunatly for pollution control advocates this is
438 bad news. More auto power means a bigger engine, or more efficient one.
439 The small block V8 is a great example- revise the intake and exhaust air
440 streams and reset the timing and you get great power, at a cost in lots of
441 fuel. Turbocharge or supercharge it,(thus making it more efficient) and
442 you also get more power.  However when done, which method is used and 
443 prefered?  The cheapest one!  That means tuning!  And that costs gas!
444 The fact is that you will get more power output out of an engine per gallon
445 of fuel if you turbo it, or inject nitrous oxide, rather than retuning it.
446 Yet because of expense, people will in all cases prefer to retune.
447 Now we come to emissions. To an auto company, loading an engine down with
448 power robbing emissions control equipment (such as retuning, EGR, catalytic
449 converter, etc.) is cheaper than making it more efficient. 
450 Yet look at the benefits of increasing engine efficiency.
451    Lets take a standard econo box. Datsun 210 four cylinder. rated at 
452 about 80 hp. Engine efficiency is about 20 percent if we are lucky.
453 that means 80 percent of our fuel is wasted and does nothing but add to
454 pollution. 
455   Take out the engine. Install a 2 cylinder rated at half the cubic volume.
456 Then, run nitrous oxide. You increase engine efficiency to 40 percent,
457 gain back your lost horsepower, and the car has the same amount of power
458 as the original four cylinder version. The only difference is you use far
459 less fuel, and what is used is a more complete burn anyway. My question is this
460 Why don't the auto companies do this!
461 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++0001TED+++++++++++++++++++++
026=Usr:187                   10/12/87 18:45  Msg:671 Call:4384  Lines:5
462 I am looking for a cheep computer with modem for a friend. Call if you have
463 one to sell at 246-xxxx.
464  
465 s
466  
027=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson  10/12/87 19:35  Msg:672 Call:4386  Lines:45
467 _______________________________________________________________________________
468 Muse: I obviously "pushed one of your buttons" with my comments. And I was a 
469 bit more strident than necessary. But I will *never* be in favor of a law 
470 which *presumes* guilt, nor one which will apply equal punishment (higher costs
471 ) to both those companies that are reducing the *output* of toxics and those
472 that are trying their best to weasel around the existing rules.
473 As for fouling our own nest.... pleae note what the two prime causes of air
474 pollution in the williamette valley are: Autos and woodstoves.
475 Also note that most household *routinely* exceed allowable discharge rates
476 (in mg/liter) for many chemicals that they dump in the sewer. 
477 Industry *does* not to be watched, we're not perfect. Some of us are even
478 honest. But industry is the easy target. The point at which there is more to
479 gain from controls on residential pollution is either close at hand or may have
480 alreadt been passed.
481 Let's see the limits applied across the board... but of course, it will never
482 happen. It's easy to get people aroused at that "horrible, evil polluting 
483 company". But they *will not* believe that their woodstove could possibly
484 be a polluter. Nor will they cease to dump acids, caustics, insecticides,
485 hercides, petroleum products, etc into the sewers. 
486 If costs a company millions, they don't care. If it costs them a little
487 extra effort they say that goverment is intruding on their private affairs.
488 Well, it took decades, but we got rid of outhouses in the cities. How long will
489 it take get people to quit dumping chemicals down the drain? (note that use of
490 some *drain cleaners* would have to be controlled if we had uniform standards).
491  
492 By the way, in my comments about revealing process details last time, I do 
493 *not* mean to imply that the public doesn't have a right to know what they 
494 might be exposed to in case of an accident. And the workers certainly have 
495 rights. But I'd like to be sure that what has to be available to *the public*
496 isn't going to help the competetion. (ie chemicals used, no problem. amounts,
497 no problem. *how* they are used, nope!) 
498 (And of course, the workers *need* to know what they are using. In fact one of
499 the worst accidents we've had was due to a worker being *afraid* of the 
500 chemicals, rather than cautious. He knew it was dangerous, but didn't know
501 *how* dangerous. So instead of lowering the carriers into the bath, he dropped
502 them in. Naturally, he got splashed....)
503  
504 I wish I still had the list I saw of common household items that should not
505 be disposed of in the trash, but as toxic waste (*legally*). I do remember
506 watch, camera & calculator batteries (many use mercury or lithium). And
507 paint & thinner. And most lawn and garden chemicals....
508  
509 At least at work we've got people who monitor what gets disposed of and how.
510 _______________________________Leonard_________________________________________
511  
028=Usr:119                   10/12/87 22:35  Msg:673 Call:4393  Lines:32
512 <___>----  <--- I don't know what this thing does, but it's chasing ME!
513 Greetings, Dave Blechman (er, Sven), and 0001TED (weren't there a few more 
514 zeroes in that when last we spoke?? Or just getting tired of plunking on
515 the old Vic?)  Long Time No Hear --- RichT, the wandering nuisance
516 Also -- Mark Forsyth, your sister sends greetings.
517 But Back To Our Story...
518 "It's all a matter of probability, you see," the stranger said, pulling a
519 wand and blackboard out of thin air.  VanderVecken really wished he wouldn't do
520 that -- it was more than a bit unnerving.  "Anything can happen, it's just a 
521 matter of varying likelihood... Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and all that,
522 you know.  I simply have some control over which things happen to me and in my
523 immediate environment.  Thus, I not only have certain luxuries," said as a 
524 glass of red wine appeared in his hand, "but I can travel as well."
525 "So how did you end up passed out on the floor of the Inn with strange
526 aliens offering a low price on your skin?," asked VanderVecken.
527 "Well, I have a number of bad habits... among them, I collect things --
528 would you like this back?, " he said, holding out VanderVecken's white
529 gold ring.
530 "Yes, I would, thank you!," snapped VanderVecken, as he reclaimed his ring
531 and replaced it on his hand.
532 "Needless to say, some people take exception to my habit of collecting 
533 things... and as for being passed out on the Inn's floor, I really can't 
534 quite recall... I just know that I should be able to leave and most of my
535 skills don't work.  As it is, I seem to be straining my abilities just to 
536 maintain my appearance (over the course of their conversation, the alien
537 had been growing more and more human) and to do such petty tricks as povide
538 free meals.  Have a banana?"
539 "No thank you.  Hmmm.... Does this mean that <choke> the Inn <giggle> could be
540 a point of <chortle> universal <guffaw>, dimensional <laugh>, and temporal
541 STABILITY !?!,"  VanderVecken cried, collapsing into laughter.  This simply
542 couldn't be!
543 !EM gmisahc s`ti tub, seod gniht siht tahw wonk t`nod I ---> ----<___>
029=Usr:174                   10/13/87 09:16  Msg:674 Call:4400  Lines:63
544 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
545 Leonard-apology accepted and returned.  Yes, I know that whenever toxins are
546 mentioned, the immediate reaction is "industry" or"nucear plants".  And I 
547 agree that that may not be fair.  But accidents like the one in St Helens
548 happen too often for comfort;  especially when they don't have to happen at
549 all.  I am not saying that all industry is bad, or that all pollute, but 
550 there are those that do.  And right now the best way to get them to stop
551 is to regulate.  As you said, laws should apply to all, but only the guilty
552 will be ppunished.  Just like little boys misusing their BB Guns--if they
553 can't be used properly and safely, they should be taken away.
554 0001TED--I don't know anything about cars.  But it does occur to me--couldn't
555 it be that the oil companies and the car manufacturers have something going?
556 A more effecient auto will need less fuel, less often, right?  And don't
557 many dealers do their own repairs,etc.  Why make the car better when you're
558 making money off the inefficiency?
559 ******************************
560 I'm picking out a thermous for you.
561 Not an ordinary thermous for you...
562       today is the MUSE's sister's BIRTHDAY!!!!!
563 Hippo birdie two ewes,
564 hippo birdie two ewes,
565 Hippo birdie deer Traci,
566 Hippo birdie two ewes.
567 *******************************************************
568 and now to finsh my morning tea, secure in the knowledge that all oatmeal is
569 created equal.
570 ******************************************
571 When Zig was born, the world rejoiced.  After all, kings weren't born every day
572 And king he would be, one day.  But for now the people had to be content with
573 him being just a baby.
574       Zig's mother, the queen, had been preparing for her new son for quite 
575 some time.  "Nothing but the best," she had said; and so the prince would
576 always have the finest.
577       Zig's father, the king, was already hiring the teachers his son would
578 need later in life.  "A king must be educated," he had said, and so the 
579 prince would have the most qualified advisors.
580       Then came that fateful day, and the queen produced a beautiful baby boy-
581 except for one thing.  The brow star was missing.  Everyone had brow stars,
582 even the peasants.  The royal doctors assured the king and queen that it
583 would show up soon.  But after two weeks, they began to worry.
584 *******************************************
585 Fable Master--where are you??Didn't you know there was a 
586 Luingil in the house?  actually, there are two--one hangin on the bathroom 
587 mirror and one that lives in the basement.  We're planning on keeping both.
588 Are you on agora?  obviously, if you're extolling the virtues of Larn.
589 Silly little muse...
590 ***********************************
591 Well, o ye fans of mine, I've given you a few lines of my own, now for some 
592 from a well known BARD:
593 ......................................
594 Our revels now are ended.  These our actors,
595 As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
596 Are melted into air, into thin air;
597 And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
598 The cloud capped towers, the gorgeous palaces,
599 The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
600 Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
601 And, like this insubstatial pageant faded,
602 Leave not a rack behind.
603 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
604 up20
605 pr
606 bot
030=Usr:159                   10/13/87 13:02  Msg:675 Call:4405  Lines:22
607 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
608 Old myths take a long time to die- and the one about the oil companies
609 and car manufacturers being in league is the oldest.  Actually, car companies
610 make their money the same way clothing designers make theirs: the restyle their
611 products every year and push the same old garbage out the door, in different
612 packaging, of course.
613     It is easier to make a normally aspirated internal combustion engine than
614 a turbo job, or a NOS job.(or supercharged) Internal engine tolerances can
615 be looser, iron castings instead of forgings can be used, and cheaper
616 gasketing can be used. All this despite the fact that turbocharging has been
617 employed on industrial engines for years now, and NOS technology has made
618 great strides in the last few years. (such as premixing)
619    Do you really think people will pocket the savings in gas money if cars
620 are made more efficient?  Of course not! They will just drive more and end
621 up spending the same, the only difference being pollution will be reduced
622 because of cleaner burns in the engine.
623    There are a few bright spots in auto technology, though. Example, the
624 buick aluminum V6. The turbo versions of this engine currently being
625 produced employ 15 psi boost, making it the highest boosted production
626 engine currently available. Needles to say, engine efficiency is greatly
627 increased.
628 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++0000001Ted+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
031=Usr:32                   10/13/87 13:55  Msg:676 Call:4406  Lines:9
629 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$
630                            J.D.'s Place.
631                              256-xxxx.
632                           300/1200 Baud
633  
634                            Call Today
635                            or else...
636  
637 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#
032=Usr:61                   10/13/87 17:53  Msg:677 Call:4409  Lines:8
638 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
639 Over the general ruckus, Emu heard an interesting statement, then the
640@definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laugher.  "The
641 definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laughter.
642 "The Inn as the universal point of stability?"  Emu called for a very
643 stout mug to aid in thinking this through...
644 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu
645@definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laughter.
033=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      10/13/87 21:01  Msg:678 Call:4416  Lines:89
646 A quick comment, a turbo on a gas engine does not make it significantly
647 more efficient in the typical use an auto is placed in. The turbo is
648 seldom activated. In industrial use the turbo is a *very* worthwhile
649 addition because speeds and engine loads seldom change over the majority
650 of the engines work time. The typical auto use involves a lot of
651 stops and goes. Requiring a wide range of power requirements. That is
652 why deisel engines never became all that popular, they are picky about
653 wanting to run at a narrow power range. The higher grade fuel (gas)
654 engines allow for a much wider range of rpm/power because of the more
655 violtle fuel used. Periodically there comes the usual bit about someone
656 who develpoed a 100 mpg carb in his garage or some such thing and that
657 it was suppressed by the a. oil companies, or b. the auto industry.
658 It is a bunch of popycock. Yes, the 100 mpg carb can be built, but
659 the general public would not rush to buy it. You have to give up
660 something to get the better mileage without changing the mechanics
661 of the gas engine. In this case it is power. The trick is to super vaporize 
662 the gas and mix in some other ingrendients to "water it down" (often this
663 is done litterally with water). The end result is 100 mpg and a top speed
664 of about 40 or so mph with almost no acceleration ability at all.
665 0 to 40 in 60 seconds... not exactly what people look for in cars.
666 Anyway, back to turbos and things... what makes the turbo good is
667 when it is used in situations where theengine is used at optimal
668 speed/load for most of its on time. Since the average car is not
669 used in this situation most of the time thee is little to gain from
670 it efficiency wise. It has however found a use in a different form
671 on the gas engine, and that is to add additional power at the top end
672 Turbos are worthless at the low end which is why you see superchargers
673 on dragsters and not turbos. Superchargers have their own set of problems.
674 Mainly they go like gangbusters at the low end where you want it, but
675 then they become a drag on the engine at higher speeds. They also tend
676 to require more maintaince than a turbo. But this is probably because
677 less design work has been done on superchargers compared to turbos.
678 The turbo is used on most industrial type engines because it is more
679 effiecient when running at optimal speed. primarily because of 
680 little or no load on the engine. There is a problem with backpressure
681 in the exahaust. The turbo also has an added design aspect that 
682 engineers like, which is a fail-safe. A turbo maxes out on how much pressure
683 it can provide. So when the wastegate fails there is less of a problem
684 in a supercharger the pressure mechanism is typically directly tied
685 to the crankshaft which means that the faster the engine turns the more
686 pressure. It is easy to gt into a run-away condition if the pressure
687 control fails. The end result... a blown engine. A turbo approachs the 
688 problem more gracfully with a less likely result in a blown engine.
689 There are many things you can do to failsafe a supercharger, but the
690 end result is that any engineer will prefer to go with a design that
691 has an inheirent failsafe in the design rather than designing it in around
692 the device. Murphy's laws always have precidence.
693 Another point is that the amount of polution emitted is not a prime factor
694 in design when looking at polution control. What *is* important is the
695 quantities of the various *types* of emissions. One of the major emissions
696 from a gas engine is H2O (more commonly known as water). Another is carbon
697 monoxide. Of course there is also a rather large percenage of hydrocarbons
698 meaning unburned or partailly burned fuel. Fo obvious reasons the H2O is
699 not a significant worry. Carbon monoxide is a slightly increased worry, but
700 largely because it reduces the beathable quality of air for plants and 
701 animals. What is a big worry are the other polutants. Many of the hydrocrabons
702 have a nasty habit of converting themselves to hydrogen-sulfides, more 
703 commonly known as the effects of acid rain. A particularly nasty polutant
704 though is NO2 which gets worse with the more effient engine. A more efficent
705 engine runs hotter the hotter it gets, the more NO2 you end up with.
706 Oh yes, as for twi cycle engines, they can be very efficient yes, but
707 the requirements to achieve tht make them useless for auto applications.
708 To gain that minimal polution and full power you have to run it at
709 the optimal designed operational parameters. If you were to use it
710 in the typical use that an auto is pu to you would end up with ten
711 time the pollution of a standard 4 cyle engine. Not to mention
712 the ever present wider power range of the 4 stroke engine. 
713 The reason the engine has remained the same in the auto for so
714 long is simply because it is the best compromise to get the job done.
715 If there was a better way I guarrente you that it would hit the
716 market. The major auto companies have tried for *decades* to find
717 a better engine. Probably the three best designs they've come up
718 with are the Wankle (mazada type rotary), the gas turbine (external
719 combustion engine) and the Sterling (a fancy engine Ford has been
720 playing with that preignites the gas for a more complete burn).
721 Unfortunately when compared to the overall range, power, and simplicity
722 (read easy to maintain, i.e. not breaking down every 5000 miles).
723 They still can't beat the old gas powered four stroke engine.
724 The Wankle came closest, but it has maintaince problems, and more
725 importantly emissions problems.  The gas turbine has to run at
726 near rated rpm to really work which makes it worthless for autos,
727 but it might find a home in interstate trucking. I don't know what
728 kind of polution problems it has though I would immagine it has its
729 own share of nasties though. The Sterling never seems to get any
730 farther than Fords labs Kind of like IBM's Josephene junction 
731 computer. Haul it out every 5 or 10 years to impress the press,
732 and then put it back in the hope chest.
733 But enough of my blathring, A short message turned into a long rant....
734 ******************************** CM *********************************
034=Usr:188                   10/13/87 22:22  Msg:679 Call:4417  Lines:57
735 ===========================JUSTIN THE BLUE=================MIDGARD========
736  
737  Guess what? I was up very very late last night, flipping around on the TV
738 dial, and I found the strangest thing......
739  Seems out of the southwestern part of the state there's these pirate broad
740 casters. They call themselves SouthWestern Oregon Network, S W O N for short.
741 And the had some very interesting ideas for programming. Thing is, these prog-
742 rams are so mind-bogglingly dumb/morose/slackjawed/STUPID that the major net-
743 works are afraid that the masses will find them more entertaining than the 
744 regular fare. Which is highly likely. I mean, aside from that bastion of tue
745 evening intellectuallism(you think I mean The Macniel-Lehrer hour? Hell no, I
746 meant MOONLIGHTING!!!!) the regular stuff is pretty bland by comparison.
747  They like to think theyre clever. But when I busted through the network jam-
748 minJim Bosley over at KATU had the watch that night, so it fiqures) They 
749 proudly said that they were broadcasting from "beautiful Atlantis, where the
750 statue of the city's Mayor stands proudly at the northern entrance to town",
751 I recognized the oblique reference to the town of Grass Pants ("It aint 
752 climate").
753  Those in the know, of course know that Grants Pass is the spiritual capital of
754 southwestern Oregon. The legislative capitol alternates between Medford and
755 Roseburg, with a leap year stop in Jacksonville to keep the Valley people 
756 confused. Eastsiders just sit back and laugh. But I digress.
757  Anyway, heres what some casual viewing brought-at least until the network
758 ECM reasserted itself.......
759  
760          19.5 h-NATURE CALL OF THE NORTHWEST
761                 (subtitled Yes, that bear DOES s**t in the woods)
762                 A nature documentary. Graphic scenes of natural wonders 
763                 doing natural things. Parental guidance suggested:children
764                 are asked to discuss material before allowing parent to 
765                 view.
766          20.5 h-THE EVENING MOVIE
767               "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Along with The Omega Man
768                 and Soldering For Fun And Profit this is the limit
769                 of the video vault at SWON. They hope to get some neat
770                 home movies from the station manager soon for use as
771                 fillers. Still the budget is rather thin....
772          22.5 h-LATE NEWS
773                 Very very short. What kind of things would happen in a town
774                 with a name like Grants Pass.
775                 And what did Grant pass anyway?
776          22.6 h-ENTERTAINMENT TONITE
777                 Watching bread rise. That kind of thing.
778          
779   Pretty strange indeed. I'll be watching out for these people and letting
780 you know if I pick anything up worth relaying. In the meantime, if any of this
781 has gotten the goat of any former residents of Jackson or Josephine or Douglas
782 Counties, then you can easily reach me. I'll be setting up the new post office-
783 on the planet Neptune (they sent me up with V'Ger)
784  
785 DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
786  
787 Justin the Black and Blue
788 ===================Justin the Sarcastic rides again=========================
789                        (Justin the Blue that is)
790  
791  
035=Usr:116                   10/13/87 23:44  Msg:680 Call:4419  Lines:4
792 -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-
793 -+-         Just looking around, as it's in my best interest...         -+-
794 -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-
795  
036=Usr:116                   10/13/87 23:56  Msg:681 Call:4420  Lines:10
796 To the person having entered work on lines 353-385, else <o><o><o><o>.
797        Might you have casually misplaced a few letters, unending
798        your latest piece, namely "BH"?
799        As you emote, I feel I look upon a hazy old mirror.  I'm eagar
800        to read what it is you type each time I see your border on this
801        system ... though I tend to forget what suffering you feel each
802        time you do return within that guise.
803        Back over the years I see not everything changes.  Does it?
804 -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -JUGGLER-   -+-   -+-   -+-   -+-
805  
037=Usr:174                   10/14/87 00:16  Msg:682 Call:4421  Lines:32
806 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^the joys of ringworm^^^^^^^^^
807 Justin--In about five minutes, you're going to be black and blue...and if it's
808 something YOU'VE caught, I'm not sure i want it to be relayed this way.  But
809 I suppose this board needs its JUSTIfication, just like everything else.  
810 0001TED & CM--like I said, I don't know a thing about cars.  Talk to 
811 Vandervecken--He was breathing down my neck, champing at the bit while I
812 read the entries.  Kitty wants to play computr, too.  Richt, why must you have
813 so many cats???heh heh...
814 ******************yes, it's one more break into the classics*******************
815 How do I love thee?  Let me count the ways.
816 I love thee with the depth and bredth and height
817 My soul can reach when feeling out of sight
818 For the ends of being and Ideal Grace.
819 I love thee to the level of every day's
820 Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
821 I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
822 I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
823 I love thee with the passion put to use
824 In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
825 I love thee with a love I seem to loose
826 With my lost saints, -I love thee with the breath,
827 Smiles, tears, of all my life! -and, if God choose,
828 I shall but love thee better after death.
829               
830                    -Elizabeth Barrett Browning
831 **************she too was a muse***********************************************
832 gotta go now.  VanderVecken wants on.............ciao bello
833 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE
834   ack!!!!!!!!!!$MNU%T$#ERRichard!!  Stop that!! &(^&$%*)LLLLLLLLLL Quit!!!!!!
835 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
836@ 
837@ 
038=Usr:159                   10/14/87 10:40  Msg:683 Call:4428  Lines:33
838 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
839 One difference between superchargers and turbos- a turbo is an expotential 
840 output device and a supercharger is a linear. If you turn the input shaft on
841 a supercharger twice as fast you get twice as much air output. Simple, right?
842 However, turn the input shaft of a turbine twice as fast and you get 4 times
843 the output. (in volume) Also, turbos can blow up engines too. 
844    Anyway, my discussion above was incomplete. I said nothing about gear
845 ratios. In the fifties I understand that Chrysler came out with a device
846 they called the 'variable transmission.' Simply, this was an automatic
847 transmission designed to have an infinite number of gears. Instaed of shifting
848 from first through third you moved a lever that decreased the gear ratio
849 from a high to a one to one ratio. I understand that current production
850 turbos are not used continously. However, if an engine was designed to run
851 at a constant rpm and the GEAR ratio was varied, through an infinite clutch,
852 torque multiplier, or some such, the acceleration felt would be the same.
853 Another possibility is engine mechanical force being converted to electricity,
854 then re-converted to mechanical force at independent drive motors. Or, 
855 mechanical force converted to fluid pressure then used.
856 also, the 100 MPG carb has been built. It is on a BIKE. Motorcycles get far
857 better gas mileage than cars, yet how many people are willing to sacrifice
858 their stereo tape player, BABY ON BOARD dangler, foglights and knobbie
859 tires to ride a fuel efficient motorcycle.  Just look at the peole driving
860 around in their 1 ton pickem up trucks with a spare tire (oversize) bouncing
861 around in the bed and the tailgate up to see how many care about fuel
862 conservation. (besides those trucks are UGLY to boot)
863    One last word about water injection. HOLLEY carbs is currently offering
864 a water injection kit. Why? Because by injecting water you can cool the
865 combustion chamber, thereby slowing the burn down. Great for pollution
866 you say but crummy for power? The secret is to tremendously advance the
867 ignition timing. The cooler chamber will not detonate (Ping) and you can
868 run crummy octane gas and get great power output. Water injection is 
869 definitly not dead!
870 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++000000001TED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
039=Usr:188                   10/14/87 16:39  Msg:684 Call:4434  Lines:31
871 ============================Justin the Blue================================
872   Vorpal Bunnies need oil too......
873  
874   I sit and think about it
875   There is no doubt about it
876   The more I do without it
877   The less I grow
878  
879   Now it's obvious to me
880   That the things in life I see
881   That now follow me
882   Were natural
883  
884   So take a look and see
885   And say occasionally
886   What you can plainly see
887   Is wrong
888  
889   Your light is whats made me
890   A thing thats good to see
891   And where I want to be
892   Is here always.
893  
894   You know who you are. Thanks, Justin the Blue
895  
896   No. No silly stuff just now. Not in the mood. Sorry.
897 ===========================Justin the moody Blue===============================
898 (direct from the fabulous Midgard room overlooking good taste completely.)
899 ================================Justin the Blue================================
900  
901  
040=Usr:119                   10/14/87 18:01  Msg:685 Call:4435  Lines:35
902 <___>---  --- I don't know what this thing does, but it's chasing ME!
903 Slowly regaining his composure, and his chair, VanderVecken took several
904 long sips of his drink.  "So you seem toe stuck here... At least your
905 materialization tricks don' seem to work.  Is that it?"
906 "Essentially yes.  I can't quite imagine why... Perhaps, as you said, some
907 kind of stability locus or some such..."
908 "Hogwash! The n is quite a number of things, but universal stability is only
909 occasionally one of them!  Hmmm... I don't suppose you've tried egss by the
910 normal routes?"
911 "What normal rou -- Um, do you think we could move to a less lit corner or
912 something?, " the now quite human looking alien requested, looking rather
913 apprehensively at two men who hadjust walked in the BabeGate.
914 "Letme guess -- more people who dislike your 'bad habits'?  C'mon, "  
915 VanderVecken replied with a heavy sigh, dragging the hapless alien into a
916 more secluded corner.
917 "Actually no;  They're just some old friends I'd rather not see right now..."
918 "Alright.  Doou have any particular destination in mind?"
919 "No, just out of here.  To many old aquaintances seem to frequent the place..."
920 "Actually, this is the first time I've seen you or any of your friends at all;
921 admittedly I haven't been around for a while, however, I have this distinct
922 susion that it's *yr* presence which is doing it."
923 "Could we just get out of he?  Please?  I'll get you an Irish Coffee on the
924 way o."
925 "Hmm.  You may have som redeeming qualities after all.  Come Along."  At this,
926 VanderVecken headed forthe nearest exit -- in this prticular instance, the
927 Gate to the Bazaar.  Yes, the Baar.  Someone had once suggested that the
928 name of that great shopping center was genereally misspelled, but it was still
929 the most efficient way to find *anything*.
930     As they passed through the gate, the little alien shimmered faintly blue.
931 VanderVeckewould have considered this worthy of comment, however his attention
932 was preoccupied by the sights of the Bazaar.  Nor did he notice that the Peter
933 Lorre lookalike was again following them...
934     "Ah, the si of the Bazaar... It's been far to long since I've been
935 here...  Come, let's go get a drink..."
936 !EM gnisahc s`ti tub ,seod siht tahw wonk t`nod I --->  ----<___>
041=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      10/14/87 20:11  Msg:686 Call:4439  Lines:52
937 **************************************************************************
938 Yes turbo's have an exponential output -- for a while. Then they start
939 to max out. That is one of the important factors in designing and 
940 matching a turbo to an engine. You want the turbin small and light
941 for fast response, but at the same time it has to be big enough to
942 handle the maximum demand from the engine. Usually there is a 
943 compromise used in order to gain low end power They set it so that
944 it has a little too much boost at the high end and then use a waste
945 gate to "waste" the extra pressure around the turbine (or on a race
946 car where noise and polution aren't a problem often directly into
947 the air). The greater power at the low end is obtained at a slight 
948 increase in the turbo lag (accellerator response). That is the main
949 advantage that the super charger has, you step on the gas and you 
950 have smooth acceleration, just like without a 'charger', but with
951 more power.
952 The reason the Turbo maxes out is backpressure in the exhaust. You
953 begin to run into limits in air movement just like you do in mechanical
954 movement of valves. 
955 Another type of 'charger' that you don't hear much of but may now that
956 electronics has come to a point to be able to effectively deal with it
957 is the electronic compressor. This works like the turbo, but rather
958 than running off exhaust gas it runs off of electricity. This allows 
959 the ability to adjust the carb air pressure at low rpm which is a
960 problem in the turbo, and removes the mechanical unloading requirements
961 of the supercharger at high rpms. And the prssure can be adjusted by demand
962 rather than by the limitatons of the engine installation.
963 It's possible that this type of charger may get used more because of
964 this. It also has the distinct advantage of removing on of the prime
965 causes of turbo failure, which is bearing failure caused by the
966 trubine having to spin at 50,000 to 100,000 rpm in an air stream 
967 meassured in thousands of degrees of heat. It's amazing that they
968 can get them to run at all in an auto, let alone for 30,000 to 40,000
969 miles with no problems. With an electronic charger you don't have
970 to worry about the exhaust gases, it is all done at the carb. And
971 you have the added advantage of not passing the exahust heat to
972 the carb intake. 
973 Fixed rpm engines driving generators.... yes, that would be more
974 efficient, you could run the engine at optimum efficiency, reduce 
975 polution significantly, and all of that. It is also much more 
976 complicated and thus more expensive and will break down much more
977 often. There are quite a few of them around though, people keep
978 trying to find a way to make it work becuase it has a lot to offer.
979 Another good appraoch that won't cost you very much, won't change
980 the power output of your car, AND is much less polluting is to
981 switch over to propane. The problem? How many propane pumps do 
982 you see around? The same goes for any other fuel. Hydrogen would
983 be an *excellent* fuel, it's major waste product is water, and
984 given that most of the earths surface is covered with hydrogen in the 
985 form of H2O (wich is where we get the stuff from) there is a lot
986 more of it than oil. So If I had to say what we should use for fuel,
987 I'd pick hydrogen.
988 **************************** CM *************************************
042=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      10/14/87 22:17  Msg:687 Call:4440  Lines:6
989 The stats--
990 177 users total
991  73 active (called more than once)
992  20 very active (called within the last four weeks)
993@    of the 20, 5 are known duplicates, which means that 5 more
994@    arfe also probably duplicates, leaving 10 true active users.
