
84388 26-DEC 14:40 General Information
     RE: UUCP 5.2 for OSK (Re: Msg 84241)
     From: MRGOOD       To: BOISY (NR)

Boisy,

I see the uud utils you uploaded for OSK have a module called FPU.
Does it have to be made part of the bootfile, or can I just load
it when needed?

Hugo

-*-

84389 26-DEC 15:04 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84386)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: RANDYKWILSON

The latest releases of WindIO have included device descriptors for devices
 /w9-/w15.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

84390 26-DEC 15:11 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84382)
     From: EDELMAR      To: MREGC


 Eric,

 > 1. The check won't be cashed until no more than 2 weeks before shipping.

 Checks will be deposited and credit cards will be processed when 20 orders
 are received.  I estimate it will take 2 to 3 months to do the port.  Ship-
 ments will be made immediately thereafter.

 > 2. I'll be given at least 2 weeks notice before the check is cashed, or the
 > credit card charged.

 Because the time that has elapsed, I will confirm all orders prior to doing
 the above.  I see no problem if anyone requires a little time to insure
 credit card or bank balances are in order.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

-*-

84391 26-DEC 16:55 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84387)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: EDELMAR

Ed,

 I think things are looking up here.  While this all may be a moot point, not
worthy of more thought investment until the port status is assured, I'm
already thinking on the possibilitiesof using KWin to run multiple GWin
sessions. :>

 >The VSC chip appears to be unique in that it
 >uses system memory and can dynamically allocate the necessary video memory.
 >Most gfx chip sets do allow a limited amount of this but only with video
 >memory and only in the lower res and text modes.  Thus, by switching pages
 >or offsets (or whatever the mechanism is) you can view other portions of
 >video memory.  But I think the way the VSC chip does it is much better.

 Yes, the VSC, like the CoCo's gime, was designed to power a "state of the
art" game machine. :>
 But there is a limit in how much memory the VSC can access. The basic chip
design limits it to 1.5meg. In the MM/1, it can access all the memory on
the motherboard, 1meg. To insure that this 1meg remains available for
video if at all possible, it is defined by init as "colored" memory. The
highest res window, the one most likely used with GWin (768x480x16), eats
up 180K for the screen. All backing-store buffers should be allocated out
of normal memory.

 >When there is a separate console driver, a separate startup file (usually
 >called 'startup.gw') can be used.  It will load the drivers, descriptors,
 >and other modules necessary for G-WINDOWS.  The first application to use
 >G-WINDOWS will initialize G-WINDOWS (actually the drivers).  This is usually
 >DESKTOP and/or the first shell window.  But, it can be done other ways.

 Right now, I'm picturing something a little more involved than a shell
script. Something more on the lines of SysGo/TSMon, without the restart
capability. It would grab a KWin "device", change it to the needed format,
open the GWin device, pass the needed info about the Kwin screen, fork off
the first GWin app, then wait. The reason for the fork/wait rather than a
chain is to keep the path to the Kwin device open so that the GWin drivers
can get keyboard data. This idea could be subject to minor revision as more
data becomes available. :>

 >All-in-all, it appears that most, if not all, the problems associated with
 >the display are resolvable - but you did say something about the pallete
 >controller.  I think K-Windows does this with hardware.  G-WINDOWS can do
 >this with software - I think the TC-70 port did it with software since it
 >did not have a hardware palette controller.  Will require some investigation.

 Actually, The MM/1-Kwindows uses both software and hardware for color
control. The MM/1 has a Brooktree palette controller, which the TC-70 did
not. This controller has 256 "slots", of which each can hold one of 16.7m
color choices. For the screen resolutions we'll be dealing with here, the
MM/1 uses the first 16 slots. To use any of these 16 slots, you store the
appropriate bit pattern in the video memory. This is totally software, and
KWin does not need to know about it. But, if you want to change the color
of a given slot (say the gif being viewed requires a really putrid green),
you'll need to reset the Brooktree. This is best done through Kwin. Kwin
reloads the Brooktree every screen change, and so would need to know the
palette you have chosen. If the GWin port uses only the default 16 colors,
then there is absolutely no problem.

 >I admit I was sorry to read you agreed that the keyboard/mouse may be the
 >major stumbling block.  I was hoping you'd tell me I was making a mountain
 >out of a mole hill <g>.  But so far, it doesn't necessarily appear to be
 >an insurmountable problem.  Just going to take a lot of work resolving it.
 >One thing I don't want to do is patch either windio and associated modules
 >or wfm and it's associated modules.  To my thinking, that is a no-no.

 I agree that this shouldn't depend on hacks to the base GWin system, or patches

to KWin.  However, BlackHawk has stated that KWin is undergoing an upgrade
as we speak. Maybe a little cross-communication can minimize the problems
with the mouse and keyboard. It wouldn't take much, and most of the hoped-
for changes have been addressed in complaints about Kwin already.

 I think that it can be done, and won't be any more work than having to
write the drivers to totally replace KWin as the console.

    Randy


-*-

84392 26-DEC 20:51 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84342)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EMTWO

I have a copy of Ed's demo manual AND of the GESPAC color brochure describing
G-Windows. These two items, along with following some conversation here, and a
conversation with Steve Adams, allowed me to write an informative article on
G-Windows, and to easi
ly see WHY industrial programmers like it so much.

-*-

84396 27-DEC 02:41 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84390)
     From: MREGC        To: EDELMAR

> Checks will be deposited and credit cards will be processed when 20 orders
> are received.  I estimate it will take 2 to 3 months to do the port.

    I can understand that, considering the situation, you would want to have
money in-hand before even starting the port, however, I find it hard to
juistify holding up $200 for a period of time estimated to be 2 to 3 months,
possibly longer, when there are a number of equally important products that
the money could be spent on with a much faster return.

    It would seem to me to be more reasonable to charge a non-refundable
deposit of, say, $50 during the programming period, and then charge the rest
once the port was finished.

...Eric...

-*-

84397 27-DEC 03:17 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84389)
     From: KSCALES      To: COLORSYSTEMS

Hi, Zack -

 > The latest releases of WindIO have included device descriptors for
 > devices /w9-/w15.

That's good... but does it now return an appropriate error if an application
tries to open a window when there is insufficient contiguous memory
remaining or any other error occurs?  (Of course, this needs to ripple
into cgfx.l, too.)  This is a real gotcha for K-Windows programmers.
Typical K-Windows screens require 66,560 (80x26x16) to 184,320 (96x60x16)
bytes in the 1-meg video memory area (1.5M with an unpublished hack), which
can quickly get used.

The limited number of window descriptors affected some design decisions
for KVed, so it is nice to see that limit increased, though.

BTW, does the latest 68340-Windio (V51?) restore the pushbuttons, so you
can use KVed now?

Cheers... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

84398 27-DEC 03:18 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84391)
     From: KSCALES      To: RANDYKWILSON

Hi, Randy -

Your series of postings has prompted me to post excerpts from a private
message I sent to Ed Gresick last July, just before his initial offer to
port G-Windows expired.

 >- KWindows on the MM/1 provides a lot more of the hardware support than
 >  just the screen display.  It also handles the mouse, keyboard, and sound
 >  (record and playback).  For G-Windows to be successful, support for these
 >  will have to be retained.

             <<< edited >>>

 >- In the unlikely event that you did decide to proceed with the port, you
 >  might want to consider the approach Stephan took with the quickie MGR
 >  port at Chicago.  He had KWindows assign a window area, then used this
 >  base address for MGR to do its thing.  He used a separate serial port
 >  for the mouse, but it should be quite easy to use the KWindows mouse
 >  getstats to allow a shared mouse.  I think the tricky part would be
 >  the keyboard -- KWindows has some unfriendly kludges (CTRL-ALT-A for
 >  resize window, and others...) and is quite limited in some regards.
 >  Fortunately, this is a separate module, so a plug-in replacement would
 >  be possible.  All of this might make co-existence possible.  However,
 >  co-existence would also likely preclude some types of speed optimizations
 >  that might make use of the VSC.

And from another private message to Ed several weeks later:

 >If given a memory address for a 184,320 byte area of 16-color video memory
 >(nibble-per-pixel, contiguous, from top-left to bottom-right), what is
 >required to do a very basic 768x480 screen driver (excluding optimizations)?
 >Palette/CLUT control should be fairly easy.  Mouse interface
 >could be done several different ways:  re-write the MM/1 mouse driver,
 >interface to the existing driver, or use a different serial port (and mouse;
 >not very attractive, but it would be OK for a demo).  My guess is that
 >G-Windows would generate its own mouse pointer, and would allow for a
 >software-generated cursor as well.

My thoughts at the time closely paralleled much of what you have been
proposing.  Though I didn't go into the details, what I had in mind (with
a few embellishments) was:

  - G-Windows init:
     - open a 768x480x16 K-Windows screen through a standard Kwin call (for
       /w).  It would keep the associated paths open.
     - GW would obtain screen video memory base address from KW
     - GW would use a KW call to set initial palettes.
     - GW would tell KW to turn off mouse cursor, as it would generate its
       own.
  - G-Windows term:
     - GW would close KW paths after terminating its own resources
  - Reading the mouse:
     - GW should probably use KW calls to read the mouse values, for
       co-existence. (Note that KW juggles which screen is currently active.)
       GW should honour Ms_Valid to ensure that it only reacts to mouse
       actions entered when it is the interactive screen.
     - KW normally only has one mouse button available for the application
       to use (default, the left one).  Since I sent my original messages,
       we have learned that with Scroll Lock "On", the center button
       (normally cut/paste) can also be used.  The right button switches
       to the next screen in rotation, so is useless to an application.
  - Reading the keyboard:
     - keyboard input would arrive to GW via the original KW stdin path.
     - KW keyboard idiosyncrasies/idiocies that will need to be addressed:
        - ALT-CTRL-A/B/Space
        - CTRL-ARROWs, CTRL-Enter, ALT-ARROWs, etc.
       The first group (move, resize) are particularly troublesome,
       especially the "move", which could be initiated from another screen
       to move it onto the GW screen.
  - Compatibility with KW applications:
     - programs requiring KW support (sound, different resolution screens,
       etc.) could be run from a GW window using:
               "application <>>>/w"
       which would automatically be routed by OSK to /w and Windio.
     - KW applications which automatically create a new KW screen should
       work as above.
     - KW applications which fiddle with the current screen to change its
       characteristics would not be directly compatible, but could be
       run using the "<>>>/w" method above.

Anyways, the above are really nothing much more than "ruminations"...
we really don't know what is feasible at this point.

It is going to be very interesting to see what approaches the two G-Windows
ports take...

Cheers... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

84411 27-DEC 22:22 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84397)
     From: SCWEGERT     To: KSCALES

> BTW, does the latest 68340-Windio (V51?) restore the pushbuttons, so you
 > can use KVed now?
 >

FWIW, I'm running v51 of windio on a non accelerated MM/1, and KVED works
just dandy!


*- Steve -*


-*-

84417 28-DEC 00:26 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84360)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: EDELMAR

Ed, this may have already been covered, but I'll reply anyway... ;)

 > I thought I saw some place in past discussions that the address for each
 > window is available.  If so, then G-WINDOWS could use the address of the
 > window it was started from as its base address.  Is the resolution
 > (horizontal and vertical) also available?

Yes, all that info is available.  I would suggest, however, that instead
of examing the current screen address, that you open a new path to the
device "/w" which will select an open (unused) K-Window device
descriptor and then open to the appropritate resolution using a DWSet
call (just like the CoCo OS-9 DWSet call).  That would be best, I think.

 > As I understand K-Windows, while you can have many background processes
 > running from a given screen, you can have only one process writing to

There is no distinction between an "active" or "inactive" window as far
as writing to a K-Window is concerned.  All windows are always updated,
just not always visible.  The screen memory address you get is yours...
the window will not be moved.

 > 'Hot-keying' from the screen running G-WINDOWS might be another problem.
 > Assuming the mouse and keyboard outputs are sent to G-WINDOWS, how much
 > filtering is done by K-Windows?  I believe certain keys are intercepted
 > by K-Windows and not passed on.  Is this correct?

The mouse should not be a problem under K-Windows...  K-Win is pretty
liberal in providing info about the mouse.  You will probably have to
request K-Windows turn off it's own mouse pointer, which is as easy as
sending two bytes to the screen.  The keyboard is what I'm most
concerned about.  Hitting CTRL-A will resize a screen...  CTRL-SPACE
will move a window to another location...  these are things you cannot
stop.  Your will can be moved by the user to a new location or resized
without your knowledge or control.  And those ctrl sequences are not
passed onto the application, either.


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

84425 28-DEC 03:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 GWindows (Re: Msg 84367)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: ILLUSIONIST (NR)

Mike,

After many years of COCO "windows", I too had concerns about a
Gwindows system.  It did not make that much differance!  I believe
that part of my reluctance is the unconscious comparisons I was
making to Microsoft "Windows".  That product does not really
multitask like Gwindows/OSK and that is a BIG differance!  Things
here go on rather smoothly in the other windows and inside of
hibernating icons.  It is not all that much of a change to "shoot"
at another window or at an icon to bring it up to the top.  It is
also easy to lay several windows alongside each other since they
can be resized and moved with the mouse.  I am not familiar
with K-windows.  Having the scroll bars, hibernate , close buttons, the
icons for hard drives and floppies, etc. is quite an improvement over
CoCo windows.  I am not sure if I would be so positive about
Gwindows if the resolutionof the screen was like the CoCo.  I believe
that the MM/1 has adequate resolution in some of its modes.  If
you have no access to a system with Gwindows, the closest
thing is the new Workplace shell in OS/2.1 ( Now, don't
pin me down on that--they are not TOO close)  Gwindows/OSK
is , in general, a lot faster on the Kix\30 than OS/2 on
a 486-25.

Allen

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84393 26-DEC 21:37 General Information
     RE: CD-I units identical? (Re: Msg 84358)
     From: WA2EGP       To: PHXKEN (NR)

Well, I know the Sears "version" has some software with it.  As far as the SVHS
connector, I really don't know.  If that is supposed to be super VHS I could
care less....it's either 8 mm (formally BETA) or nothing (grin).  Mine is a
Maggie CDI-2200 which was sold by Radio Shack as an experiment in certain sales
items.  From what I know, there were only 760 High volume stores that got them
and they were not to be returned to the warehouse.  I got mine for $199.95 so
I don't care if it is slow or not.  It was manufactured in Belgium so did
Philips make it or not, that is the question (sorry, couldn't past that up)?
Unforch, from my info, they are all gone :-<

-*-

84395 27-DEC 00:51 General Information
     RE: CD-I units identical? (Re: Msg 84393)
     From: EMTWO        To: WA2EGP

 I also got my CD-i machine at the Shack. I doubt that there was a 'slow'
version of the machine at all. True, the video card should speed the
thing up, but non-FMV machines should all run at the same speed.

-*-

84419 28-DEC 00:40 General Information
     RE: CD-I units identical? (Re: Msg 84395)
     From: WA2EGP       To: EMTWO (NR)

I would like to get the full motion card.  Seeing movies might be interesting.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84394 26-DEC 21:52 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84384)
     From: WA2EGP       To: SCWEGERT

..and if that service doesn't have a certain post you are interested in, then
you're screwed?  CI$ is too expensive for some of us and what we are interested
in.  Delphi is fine for me.  I'm not saying everything should be posted to all
services but it would be nice in my opinion.  Although I'm just jumping in
here, I think that the AR fiasco might have happened no matter what service
the source code was posted on.  Too bad a few "rotten apples" almost spoiled
the whole barrel.  I guess that's the price for making some things to "free".
(Should be too "free".)  Now if I could get my boss to pay for CI$, then I
might feel differently.

-*-

84402 27-DEC 07:30 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84384)
     From: CBJ          To: SCWEGERT

Since you made a reply that was so long I've probably missed a fe comments.  I
am currently using a "dumb" terminal at work and have no storage facilities.  I
in no way meant that any software or files should be cross posted if the author
doesn't want them to be.  You referred to one of my opinions as (was it silly?)
Well, the fiasco with Carl's AR and using that as an argument here against the
cross posting is ludicrous!  Are you trying to say that if AR were posted only
on CIS that the hacking would never have taken place?  Are the users of CIS so
much better that they are above that sort of thing?  Yes I know we are talking
about the source code here.  Carl is not the first author who has released his
source code and had it hacked.  He on't be the last either.  The people that do
this are going to do it and release it without permission anyway.  Like any
other software that is "free" it will end up distributed all over the place.  I
know here on Delphi and on my own BBS this stuff will not make to the Databases
but it will on an awful lot of BBS's and stuff like this is passed around at
club meetings and basically any type of meeting where CoCoists gather.  I still
feel that the costs of CIS are more than I wish to pay for the services they
offer.  I have the 20/20 plan here and I can get 95% of anything I want right
here.  I have Internet access through a BBS and don't even need to use 1 minute
of Delphi time for internet.  I will be offerring full UUCP on my BBS very soon
since I just invested a few $$$ with another sysop to get a SUN 3/160 to run a
BBS on.  My BBS will continue on my CoCo but the feed for UUCP will be a SUN.
Anyway, I see no compelling reason to spend over $100.00 a year to connect to
CIS.  As far as GEnie?  Compelling reason #1. They have a CoCo Sig that is at
least as active as the one on CIS.  That would be enough reason IF I could
justify CIS.  BTW, the $100.00 doesn't include the additional phone calls that
would need to be made during the year.
 Carl

-*-

84406 27-DEC 20:48 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84402)
     From: JOHNREED     To: CBJ

 >
 > Well, the fiasco with Carl's AR and using that as an argument here against
the
 > cross posting is ludicrous!  Are you trying to say that if AR were posted
only
 > on CIS that the hacking would never have taken place?  Are the users of CIS
so

Sooner or later, somebody is bound to screw it up.   In defense of the
people who fiddled with "AR", those little messages from the original
author have a way of disappearing as stuff gets passed from hand to
hand.  Maybe the author of the mods didn't know he was violating the
author's request -- the fault would be with the one who passed it on
without the original author's comments.


 > Anyway, I see no compelling reason to spend over $100.00 a year to connect to

 > CIS.  As far as GEnie?  Compelling reason #1. They have a CoCo Sig that is at

I'm keeping my accounts on Delphi, CIS, and Genie.  CIS has more of
EVERYTHING than ANYBODY, period.  If you haven't looked for it on
CIS, you haven't looked for it.  DELPHI has many of the OS9/OSK
programmers and a neat portal to Internet.  GENIE has lots of UNIX
source and a super POSTSCRIPT forum.  All three, of course have an
active COCO/OS9/OSK area.  My CIS bill runs between $20 and $30/month,
or about the same as Delphi.  Not a lot for a "middle-aged" man to spend
on his main hobby.

BTW
Just saw what appears to be the first in a series of reports on
NBC nightly news.  They have discovered computer communications.
There goes the neighborhood.


           John R. Wainwright

 <<CIS -- 72517,676>> <<DELPHI -- JOHNREED>>

 *********** InfoXpress ************

-*-

84408 27-DEC 21:25 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84402)
     From: VAXELF       To: CBJ

  Carl,

    I thought I would point out that I too have the DELPHI 20/20 plan,
just because CIS is TOO expensive for me.
    BTW the 20/20 plan comes out to be around $240/yr, so your figure's for
CIS are a TAD TOO LOW. CIS can run you that much in ONLY ONE MONTH.

John D.

-*-

84413 27-DEC 23:09 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84408)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: VAXELF (NR)

cannot figure how a $1.00 an hour here .and $5.50 there work out the same!
and if one has a 2400 modem..its $12.50 hr....Etc.....NO WAY JOSE!<grin>.
he prob goes up for 15 min...<grin> at a time!
Dennis

-*-

84416 28-DEC 00:08 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84413)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: COCOKIWI

It's  very  simple. I do not use CIS interactively like Delphi. No sitting
in Conf for 3hours at a time. My monthly CIS bill is a lot less than my
Delphi bill, even though I read three times as many forums on CIS. Why,
because I can call into CIS, download the days messages from each of the
three forums (occassionally uploading responses), and log off in less tie
(time) than it normally takes Delphi to get from
the USERNAME  prompt to the OS9 Forum prompt. Cost per time unit is one thing.
Cost per KByte is something entirely different.

  Randy

-*-

84431 28-DEC 07:26 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84406)
     From: CBJ          To: JOHNREED (NR)

I agree that for some people $20/$30 a month per service may be viewed as a
reasonable expense.  I, however usually end up with more like $35/$45 a month
on Delphi alone.  This is due to the volume of mail I must store at times due
to my being an officer of three Users Groups.  That and the fact that I must
often log on during the day when I pay a premium rate.  I have had bills as
high as $250.00 just previous to the Fest and during The OS-9 Users Group
debacle.  I think anybody can see why I would hesitate to go online with CIS.
Other reasons include the fact that most people I need to interface with are
here or on Internet and the fact that Delphi is "home".
 NBC just discovered computer communications....shudder, shudder.!.

-*-

84432 28-DEC 07:29 OSK Applications
     RE: 14.4 help (Re: Msg 84408)
     From: CBJ          To: VAXELF (NR)

I was using the figures quoted for CIS.  I know that it would cost more but
don't want to get into an argument about how it "only costs me" and I've had
bills as low as, etc.  Suffice it to say that it ould be a minimum of $200.00
per year just to join and you can get a $10/4 plan here so $120.00 is also a
reasonable quote for Delphi.
 Carl

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84399 27-DEC 03:27 Games & Graphics
     MM/1 Joystick
     From: MREGC        To: ALL

    Making the MM/1 as compatible with CoCo hardware as possible was a
sensible idea, for the most part, but there is only so far that this should
have been carried. How is anyone who doesn't have an old CoCo joystick going
to use the MM/1's joystick port? These joystcks aren't sold anymore by anyone!

    I seem to remember that back in the days some company sold an adaptor to
make the CoCo 6-pin DIN joystick port accept traditional Atari type joystick
plugs. Does anyone know if the company and/or the product still exist?

    It won't make much sense to write siftware that uses a piece of next-to-
impossible to find equipment.

...Eric...

-*-

84403 27-DEC 07:46 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84399)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC

>How is anyone who doesn't have an old CoCo joystick going to use the MM/1's
>joystick port? These joysticks aren't sold anymore by anyone!

Well, it is a trivial task to adapt an IBM joystick to use on a CoCo so I would
think that it would be the same thing on the MM/1.  Moreover the Super Deluxe
Joystick for the Tandy 1000 line IS available from Rat shack and it is easy to
find the CoCo style Joysticks at Rat Sack.  Gravis also made a Joystick for the
Tandy 1000 that work just fine with a CoCo and even had instructions for the
CoCo.  I'm sure that BlackHawk could work out a deal with Gravis IF finding the
joysticks becomes a major problem.  BTW, the original "deluxe" joystick was the
made by Kraft.  Just a couple of trivial mods and a different connector on the
end.  There is a company that sells adapters to use Atari joysticks with the
CoCo as well...I disrememeber who it is right now.  Oh and last but not least,
That is a seven DIN connector on the back of the CoCo.
 Carl

-*-

84412 27-DEC 23:02 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84399)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: MREGC

How come you say that! ALL IBM analog joysticks ARE not that much different.
I am using two old Delux joysticks<COCO> on my 386....SO!seems to me it would
work the other way!<grin>all one needs to do is put the right plug on it!!!
Dennis

-*-

84414 27-DEC 23:11 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84403)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: CBJ

WRONG! try six ...pins!......was 5pins till they added the extra button.
Dennis

-*-

84415 27-DEC 23:21 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84412)
     From: MITHELEN     To: COCOKIWI

Gee... Sounds like someone could probably make some $$$ building and selling
adaptor cables that will allow you to plug a IBM type joy-stick into a CoCo or
MM/1 without having to hack the the jok-stick cable. Hey... Chris Hawks!
This sounds like a good Hawksoft product... Just give me a 5% royalty for the
Idea if you plan on marketing it 8-)
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

84423 28-DEC 02:15 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84403)
     From: MREGC        To: CBJ

Carl,
    I hope getting joysticks is as easy as you make it out to be. I know some
company sold joystick adaptors way back when, but that was a long time ago.
Hopefully they are still in business or can at least be contacted.
    When you say you can still get CoCo style joysticks at Radio Shack, do you
mean by special order? I just checked out 1 Shack in my area to see if they had
any, and they didn't. But of course that was only one store. Was that not very
representative of most Shacks?
...Eric...

-*-

84424 28-DEC 02:25 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84412)
     From: MREGC        To: COCOKIWI

  > all one needs to do is put the right plug on it!!!

    That may well be true. However, the idea here is supposed to be to make
OSK, (or the MM/1 or whatever,) as *user* friendly as possible, which means
getting away from the old CoCo habit of hardware hacking our way into what we
need. I may be a programmer, but as far as hardwae goes, I'm as much of a user
as you can find. I don't touch hardware except for maybe jumpering a drive to
change its id in the chain of drives. I would in no way attempt to make an
adaptor to use an IBM joystick in a CoCo connector, *nor should I have to.*

    If we want to have mainstream appeal then our products *must* be plug-and-
go, which means either supplying all owners with the necessary equipment, or
making such things as adaptors included with the software that needs them. In
my opinion, the former would be much more desireble. As a programmer I don't
think I should have to worried about whether or not users will have access to
the right type of joystick or an adaptor to use a more mainstream one. And I
*certainly* shouldn't have to provide such an adaptor with every game I sell.

...Eric...

-*-

84426 28-DEC 05:51 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84415)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: MITHELEN (NR)

Hee.hee!...for grins..grab a copy of Popular Electronics DEC-93 page34
on Article..."Build A Joystick Adapter"   "Nintendo" joysticks for IBM or
Atari...This is a "SERIAL" to Analog converter...believe it or NOT...
Data from joystick is...Gnd....CLK....Load....Sout....+5v
Basicly a 4021 par in/serial out shift reg..with 8 pulled up SPST Mom switches
 connected to its par inputs..the Computer supplied the CLK & LOAD....
This package controls the thing via three chips..costs $20.00 +shipping
AND should work with a CoCo....<x fingers><grin>.....
Dennis

-*-

84427 28-DEC 06:02 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84424)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: MREGC

The Elmar....System should work fine,since it uses IBM boards,hence NO problem!
The MM/1 I don,t know...YOU are getting away from the point made!
THE Coco joystick is NO LONGER MADE...so if one needs one then THEY HAVE TO
MAKE THE CHANGES for it to work! If they get one from Radio Shack it will still
have the 6 pin plug,as their Computers use 6pin sockets<same as CoCo>the only
change is the power line to the controls inside....I WAS NOT REFURING TO A
MM/1 or any other 68000 system....I was Refuring to the CoCo......in my other
post here,get another pair of glasses!<grin>
Dennis

-*-

84428 28-DEC 06:17 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84423)
     From: COCOKIWI     To: MREGC

Hmmmm! Radio shack has changed somewhat!<grin> looks like they now support
the "other" kind of joystick now,figuring they now sell "other"boards
sound blaster for one,and others,one would think that the "standard" would
be supplied now,and the "old style" out the window,<as usual>..One would
think you could get one via the Warehouse!<don't count on it<grin>If memory
serves me correctly did they not buy a computer Maker not long ago!
BUT! most IBM analog joysticks CAN be changed to work on a CoCo!I did the
reverse,I had a couple of CoCo Kraft Joysticks that I changed to work with
my 386....work fine! on JF2...F117....f15.....Etc....<grin>......
Saved me buying another!
Dennis

-*-

84429 28-DEC 06:34 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84427)
     From: MREGC        To: COCOKIWI (NR)

  >YOU are getting away from the point made! THE Coco joystick is NO LONGER
  >MADE...so if one needs one then THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE CHANGES for it to
  >work! ...get another pair of glasses!!<grin>


original message. My whole point was that the MM/1 uses joysticks that are no
longer in production, which is a bad design decision if we want to appal to
more than just the hardware hacker who doesn't mind having to "MAKE THE
CHANGES for it to work!" Users SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THIS. That IS the whole
point! The nessage of mine which you replied to had NOTHING to do with the
CoCo.

  >If they get one from Radio Shack it will still have the 6 pin plug...

    That's certainly not what I saw when I visited my friendly neighborhood
shack the other day. All the joysticks there had connectors of the old Atari
style, (maybe that's the IBM style, I don't know as I'm not familiar with IBM
style joysticks.) Now I just have to visit several other shacks to see if
CoCo style joysticks are nowhere to be found.

...Eric...

-*-

84430 28-DEC 06:39 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84428)
     From: MREGC        To: COCOKIWI (NR)

  > BUT! most IBM analog joysticks CAN be changed to work on a CoCo!

    OK, for the third, (and hopefully last,) time. I was not referring to the
CoCo, but rather to the CoCo style joysticks which the MM/1 uses. And one of
the major points of what I'm saying is that MM/1 users *should not have to*
change, modify, adapt, or do anything else to another style of joystick just
to have a useable joystick for their MM/1.

...Eric...

-*-

84433 28-DEC 07:37 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84414)
     From: CBJ          To: COCOKIWI (NR)

WHOOPS!  blushing...  How right you are.  I just counted again.  Must have been
up too long when I counted yesterday.  I disagree about the "5pins" though.  I
have an old gray case and it has 6 pin output.  Are you thinking of the
connector on the M/Board or the one on the cable?  I know Tandy did make some
Tandy/custom cable connectors with a pin missing.  They never stop being the
original ones.
 Carl

-*-

84434 28-DEC 07:45 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84423)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC (NR)

While Tandy isn't "restocking the joystick" it is far from a "hard to find" or
off-the-list item.  The reason for this is the fact that until just VERY, very
recently the Tandy 1000 line used the same joystick.  If the store you deal
with doesn't have one on the shelf ask them to call a couple of local stores.
I was able to find 50 High Resolution interfaces that way at just 5 stores only
a year ago.  Since the joysticks MAY be discontinued (I'm not sure of that) you
can also ask them to check the disco sheet which will give quantitites and
locations within the district.  As I said Gravis also made a very nice stick
for the Tandy 1000 and the CoCo that was sold at Egghead.  I bought 2.  I'm
sure they would do a limited run for Blackhawk if there was a demand for them.
 Carl

-*-

84435 28-DEC 07:54 Games & Graphics
     RE: MM/1 Joystick (Re: Msg 84424)
     From: CBJ          To: MREGC (NR)

re: plug and go:
 Actually even in the IBM/PC world you will find that quite often you need a
gender changer or adapter to make something work.  Sure, if you buy a card to
plug into your computer that has an attachment it will not need anything else,
but if you buy a modem it comes with a cable (external) that is 25/25.  Your
computer has 9 pin.  Hm, what to do?  You aren't a hacker?  OK, you either buy
a cable that is 25 at one end and 9 at the other or a 25/9 adapter.  The same
thing would apply here.  What is needed is an adapter cord for the IBM type of
joystick.  No problem.  Just another item for some vendor to make and sell.  Of
course this is all problematic since there aren't any MM/1s in production yet
and I doubt that any changes are going to be introduced even if they do go into
production since that would cost additional $$ and that is something that I
doubt that Blackhawk can afford right now, especially for something this easy
to "fix".
 Carl

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84400 27-DEC 04:58 General Information
     RE: CDi Digital Cartridge (Re: Msg 84343)
     From: BROWN80      To: JOHNBAER

Thanks a lot for your research.  I'm going to go out and look at what is
available around Bryan.  I called the 800 number after an add and they are
sending a packet of info...  Who knows Christmas may be a little late this
year.
                          John Brown

-*-

84405 27-DEC 19:28 General Information
     RE: CDi Digital Cartridge (Re: Msg 84400)
     From: JOHNBAER     To: BROWN80 (NR)

> Thanks a lot for your research.  I'm going to go out and look at what is
> available around Bryan.  I called the 800 number after an add and they
> are sending a packet of info...  Who knows Christmas may be a little late
> this year.
> John Brown
>

    Sounds good John.  If your wondering about any software, just ask..
 I have a `few' titles <g>.

-
   John Baer
   johnbaer@delphi.com
   jbaer@pacs.pha.pa.us

   *** InfoXpress 1.01.00 ***

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84401 27-DEC 06:58 OSK Applications
     RE: Sound Chip - Yamaha (OPL3) (Re: Msg 84377)
     From: CBJ          To: ILLUSIONIST (NR)

Hm,
     Actually the VGA card idea could probably support the CoCo windows but I
think the windows would not fill the entire screen.  I've seen stuff like this
done on prototype boards on other systems where the first objective is to get
the hardware working.  After the VGA card was working then you would need to
make additional window types to support the full use of the card but I'm pretty
sure somebody can figure a way to make a VGA card support all the CoCo windows
as well.

-*-

84404 27-DEC 11:51 General Information
     KWindows
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: KSCALES

> > The latest releases of WindIO have included device descriptors for
> > devices /w9-/w15.
>
>That's good... but does it now return an appropriate error if an application
>tries to open a window when there is insufficient contiguous memory
>remaining or any other error occurs?

You're asking the wrong person that question. First thing, I personally
never ran into the situation so I was not even aware it existed. Also,
I am not intimate with KWindows. Do you know who to direct that question
to?

>  (Of course, this needs to ripple into cgfx.l, too.)

I'm not absolutely certain, but I think Mike write all of the cgfx.l functions
so that IF a system call or a display of control codes returned an error,
it gets returned by the function call.

>bytes in the 1-meg video memory area (1.5M with an unpublished hack), which

Anyone ever going to publish that? :-)

>BTW, does the latest 68340-Windio (V51?) restore the pushbuttons, so you
>can use KVed now?

I used KVed with #50 when I first got the 340 and I couldn't tell that it
didn't work. I just tried again with #51 and KVed appears to work just
fine. Can you give me something specific to try?

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

84422 28-DEC 02:10 General Information
     RE: KWindows (Re: Msg 84404)
     From: KSCALES      To: COLORSYSTEMS (NR)

Hi, Zack -

 > You're asking the wrong person that question. First thing, I personally
 > never ran into the situation so I was not even aware it existed. Also,
 > I am not intimate with KWindows. Do you know who to direct that question
 > to?

Yes, it was mostly intended as a rhetorical question...  Probably it
would be best for us to channel these types of questions via NIMITZ,
so that he can direct them to his current K-Windows maintainer.

 > >  (Of course, this needs to ripple into cgfx.l, too.)
 >
 > I'm not absolutely certain, but I think Mike write all of the cgfx.l
 > functions so that IF a system call or a display of control codes returned
 > an error, it gets returned by the function call.

Unfortunately, the DWSet call doesn't seem to return anything (based on docs
and experience).

 > >bytes in the 1-meg video memory area (1.5M with an unpublished hack),
 > which
 > Anyone ever going to publish that? :-)

Perhaps one of our magazine magnates should contact Kevin Pease regarding
a "how-to" article...

 > >BTW, does the latest 68340-Windio (V51?) restore the pushbuttons, so you
 > >can use KVed now?
 >
 > I used KVed with #50 when I first got the 340 and I couldn't tell that it
 > didn't work. I just tried again with #51 and KVed appears to work just
 > fine. Can you give me something specific to try?

When we tried KVed on Brian White's MM/1A after the fest, we ran into two
major problems:
  - the Windio V50 palette bug, which I understand has been addressed in
    V51.
  - The K-Windows Pushbutton gadgets, which KVed uses for most of its
    main-screen buttons (not the overlays) refused to work.  (We also tried
    Joel's "Fest" Calculator program, which also uses Pushbuttons, and
    found it was broken, too.)  The problem is quite obvious, as it cripples
    mouse-activation for all of the main KVed functions.  If you didn't
    have a similar problem, maybe Brian had something installed wrong on
    his system.

Cheers... / Ken
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84407 27-DEC 21:14 Applications (6809)
     RE: Profile (Re: Msg 84280)
     From: THETAURUS    To: MIKE_GUZZI (NR)

        >>There was one update for profile called datamaster,...

        Yeah, I have that, but there hasn't been a time after I started
   that, that it hasn't crashed<my entire system that is> so I don't
   bother with it no more.
        >>why do you say only 5 lines for detail?

        Well, the display format for the screen that get's the
   information takes a whole page, and I am trying to create a report
   format that will look similar to that. There will be other report
   formats for parts of the record being accessed by certain keys. For
   instance if the person only wants a listing of boards within a certain
   area code, I'll have a format prepared  with only the fields
   appropriate for that. I also tho, want to have a format that displays
   ALL the records information and that requires a whole page. If I send
   out let's say, the whole database, I would have a page for each
   record. Here is what my display format looks like now<so far> and most
   likely this will be the final version of this display:
   --------------------------------------------------------------------

   Board Name:  [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]  Last Updated:
   [""""""""""]       Theme:
   [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]
   Sysop: [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]
   City:  [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]  State: [""""""""""""""""""""]
   Country: ["""""""""""""""]
   Phone Number: ["""] ["""]-[""""]
   Minimum Baud Rate: ["""""]      Max Baud Rate: ["""""]
   Word Length/Parity/Stop Bits: ["]/["]/["]
   Supported Networks:
   [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]
   Miscellaneous Comments
   [""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""]

   --------------------------------------------------------------------

        So you can see, that would definately take more than 5 lines ;-)
        See Ya
        >Chris<

-*-

84409 27-DEC 22:01 OSK Applications
     julian datge
     From: BKITT        To: JEJONES (NR)

Subj: Julian Date (sorry)
Thanks for the help Jim.

-*-

84410 27-DEC 22:06 OSK Applications
     RE: os9 date command (Re: Msg 83891)
     From: BKITT        To: COLORSYSTEMS

I guess that quote means more to people who actually have osk system
manuals.  I was one of the lucky majority who never recieved a manual.
Thanks very much for your help.

-*-

84418 28-DEC 00:26 OSK Applications
     RE: G-Windows (Re: Msg 84355)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: CBJ

 > Hi kookey.

<grin>  Hi Carl... got your Christmas card... thanks!  Did ya get mine?



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

84436 28-DEC 07:58 OSK Applications
     RE: G-Windows (Re: Msg 84418)
     From: CBJ          To: JOELHEGBERG (NR)

Joel, got the card yesterday.  Thanks for the kind words.  June loved the card
as well.  Waldo even liked it, he knocked it on the floor and played with it
every time we turned our backs.  (must be the glitter)  TTYL,
Carl

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84420 28-DEC 01:34 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 84254)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: CBJ

Your example of SCSI-2 is appropriate.  It is an improvement
of a standard that pretty much already worked.  That is a far
cry from dreaming up someting from scratch, like OSI, MAP,
SP50 fieldbus, etc.  There should be a working prototype of
any software available, although it need not be perfect or
complete.  Just be sure that any proposed standards are
based on someting besides theory.

Allen

-*-

84421 28-DEC 01:47 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 84267)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: PAGAN

I haven't investigated Filbus yet.  There is another layer
of "fieldbus" communications that lies below the Profibus, FIP,
SP50 level.  Filbus, Interbus-S (which may be the same) and others
are a higher speed but less sophisticated protocol.  Now, I
haven't studied Filbus in detail yet, so I may be wrong.
Profibus and FIP are quite complex, kind of like TCP/IP
for process instruments.
Fibus may only communicate with certain Gespac I/O modules.
Industry in general is looking for a common protocol for
all types of instruments such as pressure, temperature, and
flow transmitters.  Add to that limit switches, pressure switches,
etc.  All of this will communicate on a twisted pair,
with high noise immunity, at 1 megabit or higher.  "I/O"
cards would not be needed anymore (in theory).

Allen

-*-

84437 28-DEC 08:03 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 84420)
     From: CBJ          To: AJMLFCO (NR)

Well, it depends on what you define as theory.  Full RS-232 implementation is
rare.  (as defined by the standard)  Certain standards were proposed before a
product was even prototyped...IBM microchannel is an example.  As technology
speeds up and computer hardware changes magnify standards will be theoretical
in the future so that manufacturers can produce platforms that will be supported

by the third party vendors.
 Carl

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84438 28-DEC 13:35 Programmers Den
     RE: Database in C (Re: Msg 84375)
     From: FRANCALCRAFT To: MITHELEN (NR)

Thanks a bunch.  I didn't realize that linking files was that easy.

-*-


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