
Note: The first eight lines of this disk were missing. I don't know 
what happened. Perhaps they got deleted accidently.

LIST
FILE ON
MARGIN IS 80 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
                        REMOVED: 15 AUG 83
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 RE: LAST COMMENT ON DRIVE 'B'; I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THE BURDEN OF EDUCATION 
26 SHOULD BE BORNE BY THOSE THAT HAVE CHILDREN IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
27 I RAISED THREE KIDS AND ALL WERE EDUCATED IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS BOTH ELEMENTARY
28 THROUGH COLLEGE. I PAID DOUBLE FOR THEIR EDUCATIONS AND FEEL THAT THIS IS 
29 GROSSLTY UNFAIR. I SENT MY CHILDREN TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS BECAUSE I WANTED THEM
30 TO EXERCISE THEIR MINDS, NOT THEIR BODIES ON SOME SPORTS FIELD. I AM NOT 
31 AGAINST SPORTS PER SE BUT THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE SCHOOLS. THERE IS  
32 PLENTY OF TIME FOR FUN AND GAMES AFTER SCHOOL. IF SUPERVISION IS NEEDED THEN
33 IT SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY AND NOT PAID FOR BY THE TAX PAYERS. THE SAME GOES FOR
34 ALL OTHER EXTRACURICULAR ACTIVITIES. LETS GET BACK TO THE THREE 'R'S.
35                 SIGNED EX-COLLEGE PROF.(PRIVATE SCHOOL)
36 
37 ****************************************************************************
38 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
39 
40 I had hoped that we were beyond the time when such selfishness was the primary motivating force.  An educated population is in
41 the best interests of everyone, and benefits all of society.  People with no education are a drain on society, and usually cost
42 the taxpayer more in the long run than educating them would have cost.  As the number of families with school age children
43 decreases, the tax base for the above proposition would steadily decrease.  Eventually, we would have a situation where there
44 simply weren't enough in your select group of taxpayers to support education.  So the system fails.  Who needs public education
45 right?  After all, all those newly smart poor people are going to do is invent new ways to cheat on welfare, right?
46 
47 Excuse me.  I get a little cynical when I see a group of obviously well off people talk as though being rich was just a common
48 thing. This is America, guys, remember? It is our DUTY (an outdated word, I know, but some of us still believe in the concept)
49 to provide an education to EVERYONE!! Not just the priviledged few, or those who can afford it. "Let them eat cake" is simply
50 not the response they deserve.  
51 It seems that our tax system is structured so that we get to vote on those taxes that those in charge feel we won't turn down.
52 But, as the schools are generally supported by property taxes, the rich are more and more against schools. They feel
53 ( justifiably ), that they carry the majority of the burden of supporting public schools.  To make them feel better, perhaps we
54 should support public schools from some other base.  How about (do I dare say it?) sales tax?  Maybe a tax on paid private
55 school tuition.  If you want your child to go to private school, you must pay taxes equivalent to the cost of sending a child
56 to public school.
57       There has to be a solution other than a total abandonment of the school system that has been suggested above.  I'm sure
58 that the well educated customers of this Inn could arrive at better ideas than that ( the baby's wet itself! Kill it!! ).
59 Madame DeFarge is still with us in spirit, and I'd prefer we didn't get the chance to see her knitting needles.
60 /Elberich\
61 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
62 *******************************************************************************************************************************
63 To Elberich: 
64 You completely miss the point. I am merely stateing that the school system as it stands today is not doing the job that should
65 be done. I don't mind paying taxes to educate the masses (as you put it) but I do mind paying for fancy stadiums, band uniforms
66 and all other unessecary non-esential papaphenalia. Spend the money on books, qualified teachers, and class rooms!!! I fail to 
67 see why my tax dollars should go to support the next quarterback for the Jets or the Rams. I also feel that there is no room
68 for public (ie. Tax dollars) to build or even subsidize public stadiums, coloseums, etc. Let those things be paid for be the 
69 folks that use them.
70 As long as we have mandatory public education how about keeping it just that and not public entertainment.
71 You mention that the number of school age persons is declining ergo the tax base. What you and most fail to resalize is that
72 the fewer the children in the schools, the lower the cost should be. Notice I said "SHOULD" Of course we all know this is not
73 true as the beauracracy that exists is not about to limit itself while we are able and willing to pay. It's about time we all
74 demanded an accounting of every administrator, teacher, and board member as to just where our money is being spent. This also
75 applies to those in any public office from the govenor on down, or up.
76 *******************************************************************************************************************************
77 TO: EDUCATION DISCUSSION
78 RE: THE LAST 350 OR SO LINES
79 
80 1) PSYCHOLOGISTS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY STRONG INFLUENCE ON SOCIETY
81 AT ALL, GIVEN THE TRACK RECORD THEY'VE GOT, LET ALONE BE ALLOWED AROUND
82 CHILDREN. HOWEVER, PSYCHOANALYTIC THEORY MATCHES UP WELL WITH NOTIONS
83 ABOUT SICKNESS,CRIMINALITY,CLASS STRUCTURE, ETC THAT WE AS A SOCIETY
84 HOLD QUITE DEAR. THEREFORE WE WILL PROBABLY BE SADDLED WITH THEM UNTILL 
85 GENERALLY ACCEPTED THOUGHT ON THESE AREAS EVOLVES A BIT, NO MATTER HOW
86 MANY STUDIES CONFIRM THAT PATIENTS UNDERGOING ANALYSIS DERIVE NO BENEFIT
87 FROM IT.
88 2) CHILDREN - SOMETIMES VERY LARGE AND WELL ARMED CHILDREN - MISBEHAVING
89 IN A CLASS CAN MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO TEACH OR LEARN. BRING BACK
90 CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. (ANY COMMENTS!)
91 3) SELFISH OR NOT, MOST PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF DON'T WAN'T TO VOTE FUNDS
92 FOR PROJECTS OF DOUBTFUL VALUE, INCLUDING SCHOOL LEVIES. WE REGARD THIS
93 IN PART AT LEAST AS A PROTEST AGAINST THE SHORTCOMINGS OF THE SYSTEM -
94 ALBEIT A CRUDE TOOL AT BEST, THIS PROTEST IS PERHAPS THE ONLY THING
95 FOUND SO FAR THAT WILL MAKE A BEAUROCRAT OF ANY PERSUASION SIT UP AND
96 LISTEN TO OTHERS. THE DEBATE WE ARE HAVING HERE NOW OWES SOMETHING TO 
97 THE DEBATE OVER FUNDING.
98 4) MAKING THOSE WHO CHOSE TO HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN OTHERS, WHETHER
99 BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF, TRADITIONS OF A SUBGROUP, PERSONAL
100 PREFERENCE, OR LACK OF EDUCATION ABOUT CONTRACEPTION, PAY MORE HAS GREAT
101 APPEAL TO MANY. IN FACT, MANY COUNTRIES NOW HAVE A VARIETY OF MEASURES
102 LIKE THIS DESIGNED TO PROMOTE ZERO OR LOW POPULATION GROWTH. HOWEVER,
103 SOME WILL STILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY, AND THEIR CHILDREN SHOULD OBVIOUSLY 
104 STILL BE EDUCATED. FORTUNATELY, A FAIR METHOD FOR MAKING THOSE WHO HAVE 
105 CHILDREN AND WHO CAN AFFORD A 'CHILD TAX' PAY MORE ALREADY EXISTS.
106 THAT IS TO ELIMINATE THE DEDUCTION FOR CHILD DEPENDENTS ON THE FEDERAL
107 INCOME TAX. THOSE WITH LOW INCOMES WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THIS AS MUCH
108 AS THOSE WITH HIGH INCOMES, AND THOSE ON WELFARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, SOCIAL
109 SECURITY, ETC EVEN LESS OR NOT AT ALL. AT THE SAME TIME THE PEOPLE WITH
110 ONE, TWO OR NO CHILDREN WILL NOT BE SUBSIDIZING THE OTHERS TO SUCH A GREAT
111 EXTENT.
112 5) WHERE ARE THE FEMALE PARTICIPANTS AND YOUNG PARTICIPANTS (UNDER 18)
113 IN THIS DISCUSSION. EITHER GROUP ON THE AVERAGE HAS MORE PRACTICAL
114 CONTACT WITH THESE ISSUES THAN ADULT MEN. I KNOW MOST OF THESE MACHINES ARE
115 OWNED BY MEN, BUT HOW ABOUT HAVING THE REST OF THE FAMILY DIAL UP THIS DEBATE
116 AND PUT IN THEIR POINT OF VEIW. AND DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU CAN SPEAK FOR
117 THEM.
118 6) ARGUMENTS ABOUT PARTICULAR ACTIVITIES AND CLASSES TO BE INCLUDED AT 
119 SCHOOLS HAVE GONE ON SEEMINGLY FOREVER. WHETHER YOU TALK ABOUT ART, SPORTS,
120 OR SCIENCE, EACH FIELD WILL HAVE SUPPORTERS AND DETRACTORS. SOME PEOPLE
121 CAN MAKE A GOOD CASE FOR THE IDEA THAT A NOVEL OR AN OUTSTANDING OLYMPIC
122 ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE IS JUST AS VALUBLE A CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY AS
123 A WHOLE AS IS THE LATEST CHIP-WIDGET. ECONOMICALLY, WE ARE STILL NET
124 EXPORTERS OF ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS. THESE FIELDS EMPLOY MANY MORE 
125 PEOPLE THAN CAN POSSIBLY EVER LEARN TO PROGRAM EEPROM'S - AND REMEMBER 
126 THAT THESE FIELDS EMPLOY PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT NATIVE TALENT'S FROM THOSE
127 USEFUL IN CURRENT HIGH TECH. NO BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT THE GENERAL EMPHASIS
128 OF EDUCATION SHOULD BE MADE WITHOUT A CAREFUL CONSIDERATION OF THE NEEDS
129 OF DIVERSITY IN SOCIETY.
130 7) ON THE OTHER HAND, AS A VETERAN OF THE SPUTNICK ERA SCIENCE EDUCATION
131 THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED WHEN WE WERE STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE RUSSIANS BEING
132 AHEAD OF US ( AND CONTEMPTUOUS OF JAPANESE PRODUCTS) I CERTAINLY AGREE
133 THAT SCIENCE EDUCATION HAS TAKEN A NOSEDIVE IN RELATION TO TWENTY YEARS
134 AGO AND ALSO IN RELATION TO SCIENCE TAUGHT IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.
135 THIS SUPERIORITY OF OTHER NATIONS IN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION
136 IS NOT LIMITED TO SCIENCE, HOWEVER. THEY ALSO ARE AHEAD IN LITERATURE, 
137 LANGUAGES, AND ART EDUCATION. WHAT COUNTRIES? WELL, JAPAN, HONG KONG,
138 AUSTRALIA, SINGAPORE, SWEDEN, GERMANY,....... SOME THINGS YOU NOTICE
139 ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES IN STYLE..... THEY HAVE MORE DRILL, MORE HOURS PER DAY
140 IN CLASS, MORE HOMEWORK, SHORTER SUMMER VACATIONS OR NONE, MORE DISCIPLINE,
141 HIGHER STANDARDS AND A GREATER VARIETY OF COURSE MATERIAL. FOR INSTANCE, 
142 THEY STILL *REQUIRE* A SECOND LANGUAGE IN MOST COUNTRIES. THE NUMBER
143 OF STRATEGIES FOR THOUGHT ABOUT ANYTHING ONE THINKS ABOUT CAN BE INCREASED
144 BY HAVING A SECOND LANGUAGE. THE EXPORT-READINESS OF A NATION IS AFFECTED
145 ENORMOUSLY BY THE NUMBER OF BI-LINGUALS. (ALAS, I AM NOT ONE, THOUGH I AM 
146 BELATEDLY ATTEMPTING TO BECOME SO, AN EFFORT BETTER UNDERTAKEN AT AN EARLY AGE.
147 )
148 
149 WELL, MAYBE SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD LIKE TO GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE BEFORE THE DISK
150 IS FULL SO UNTILL LATER ON ........VOLUMINOUSLY YOURS, CHUCK
151 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
152 TO THE ABOVE TWO PERSONS, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU BOTH IN THAAT THE MONEY SPENT
153 ON GYMS ETC. COULD BETTER BE SPENT ON COMPUTERS, VOCATIONAL EQUIPMENT, AND LABS.
154 CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW MANY MICROS A GYM FACILITY WOULD BUY? OR HOW ABOUT YHE NUMBE
155 OF MECHANICS TOOLS, OR WOOD WORKING MACHINES??
156 AS TO THE TAX ISSUE, I THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT IDEA. TAKE AWAY THE DEDUCTIONS 
157 FOR KIDS AND WE WOULDN'T NEED AS MANY SCHOOLS. IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT DEDUCTION 
158 THERE WOULD BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE THOUGHT BEFORE ANOTHER LIFE WAS CREATED FOR 
159 THE REST OF US TO SUPPORT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO IN THE LONG RUN. NEVER BEFORE 
160 HAVE WE NNEED '0' POPULATION GROTH THAN RIGHT NOW.
161 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
162 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
163 TIt is sad that education is not considered a privilege.  Our schools 'must' 
164                                                                             
165 off
166 i do not understnderstatand thiiiss thing gg  + + it hasas typingg   problems!!!!!!
167 
168 
169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
174 ...................
175 May I break in? This empty space seems handy. One arguement for public schools
176 that is generally neglected <for obvious reasons> is that the public, tax 
177 supported schools have a better record than the average private school.
178 this is simply because they generally have more money, and are better designed
179 for the average student. Religious schools have the worst average at scholastic
180 things, but are meant to teach other things. However, averages mean nothing
181 when we talk about specific schools. Most public schools are aimed at the
182 average student, and I expect that none of the users of BWMS are average.
183 (I know I'm not!) Even so, about 90% of the population is close to average.
184 The schools in Europe are a poor model: better reputation, but only 1 in 10
185 can attend; Japan stresses CONFORMITY  far more than you would find comfortable.
186 If we voted on each issue, we would see a lot more things in school disappear.
187 Most voters are too old to use schools, and don't want to pay for something
188 they can't use. They forget the strict inverse relation between crime and
189 education, or the similar relation for need of welfare, etc. ( Or who paid
190 for their own.) Those who worked to pay tuition may argue this, but their
191 schooling was paid for by others. Tuition is a small part of the cost usually.
192 Public schools have failed a lot of people (me, for instance) but are far
193 better than anything else I have seen. They could and should be better, but
194 means more money. Perhaps commercial companies, with competition, could do
195 better. (Bid for the jobs, get paid according to the scores of the students)
196 The cost would go down, but also I expect the results.
197 ///////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
221 08/11/83
222      The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 
223 Hamfair/Computer Show Aug 27 9-6, Aug 28 9-3 at MT Hood
224 Community College gym. There will be comerical displays,
225 food  and swap tables (for radio and computer items only).
226 Admission is $2.00, 12 and under free. Swap tables are 
227 $5.00.For more information contact Bob at 771-xxxx
228 ***************************************************************
229 To: Art 
230 From: Bob 
231 -------------------------------------------
232 It amazes me that people can get on a system like this, free for all comment
233 and WASTE the space available like the
234 above 53 LINE blank area. ITS
235 APPALLING !!!!!!
236                           Paul
237 ----------------------------------------------------
238 
239 
240 
241 
242 WHYITISIZE OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD BUT IT WORKS.
243 
244 
245 D A CHS SOPHMORE
246 
247 THIS IS A STRANGE SYSTEM
248 
249 ......Paul,    you forget one thing, YOU UNDERSTAND HOW BWMS WORKS!!
250 Somebody else obviously doesn't. Was your usage perfect on your first try?
251 ////////////////mine wasn't////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
252 I said arithmatic is obsolete. Someone asked what happened when my calculator
253 broke. If something wipes out all the calculators in this house at the same
254 time, including the one I wear on my wrist, I doubt that it will matter 
255 whether I can add anyway. "Businesses demand it for a job." True, but not
256 for itself; a requirement to finish school is a good filter against 
257 incompetants. I agree we need to know simple addition, it's easier than 
258 dragging out the calculator every time we get change, but can you tell which
259 box of soap is a better buy? It's easy, and doesn't need math, the store puts
260 a little tag under each box "$.19 per oz". Damn few of us could do that fast
261 enough to be useful without a calculator, and we are the cream of the crop.
262 Spend the time on learning what the numbers mean, and how to use calculators
263 to get them. Learn how to estimate in your head, so you can tell a crazy 
264 answer, but leave the exact figuring to something that does it well.
265 We live in technological society, it's pretty important we learn to use it
266 since we have to live with it. No business want you wasting time doing arith
267 so they supply calcs: time is money. You can also say that much of the rest
268 of what is taught in school is obsolete, too. They follow, not lead.
269 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
270 ************************************************************
271 I would have to agree with BAD in large part about the calculator thing,
272 sure its nice to know you can do long division in your head, but what's
273 the point? My calculator can do it a million times faster. It is a simple
274 matter of efficiency. I am not saying that we should stop teaching math
275 (heaven forbid) but rather that we take a closer look at just what we are
276 teaching, and try to more closly adapt it to what the child will need
277 when they grow up to become a productive part of society. For the same
278 reason that we don't drive horse drawn carts around any more, we should 
279 not throw the calculator away as being just a worthless new fangled gadget.
280 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ************* 12 AUG 83 *************************
281 TO: secret admirer        fm: Mikey
282 Actually, I don't like life cerial, so I thought I'd try working for money
283 for a change. (Ha Ha)
284 **************************************************************************:
285 And finnaly, to the education debaters:
286 You seem to be speaking that one specific type of education is best.
287 I.E. the schools must teach people the way I think. Please keep in mind
288 that there are many different types of people out there who come from
289 many different backgrounds. There is no one BEST way. Not only that,
290 there is an actual need to have the varyed methodes of teaching. How
291 can we have any new ideas fowing if everyone thinks the same? Obviosly
292 no one does, which makes the whole concept of mass market teaching a
293 bit rediculous. Also I might point out that some of the most famous
294 people who many think had an extensive educational background did not
295 (the degrees and such were either given to them or came at a much later
296 date). This was usually because they did not 'fit in' to the educational
297 system of thier time, so they either left volutarily, or were kicked out.
298 Not that I am saying all famous people started this way, but only that
299 a 'higher education' does not have to come from the standard school
300 system to allow a person to expand his life.
301 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 12 AUG 83 ****************************:
302 Oh yeah, I would suggest that you not confuse speech patterns, spelling,
303 and writing ability with intelligence (whatever that is). The more I
304 study about famous people, and just people I know in general, the more
305 amazed I am at how rotten thier command of the word is. Also please
306 keep in mind that books and things have gone through many levels of editing
307 before you ever see them to clean up the writing. You should see some
308 of the trash it starts out as. It is the ideas and general tone of the
309 writing that the editors are looking for (unless of course they are
310 lazy, in which case the standards go up to include perfect writing as well.)
311 ***** Ok Ok, I'll quit **** CISTOP MIKEY *****************************:
312 Mikey, I'm not saying everyone has to take computer classes.
313 I'm just saying that it would help if they were taught how to
314 "reason in a logical manner", how to use the language well enough
315 to communicate CLEARLY and UNAMBIGOUSLY, to read (and LISTEN)
316 well enough to figure out what other people may be trying to say,
317 etc. This may be asking too much, BUT it is also the MINIMUM
318 required to keep things going!
319 As for BAD's comment about calculators & unit pricing
320 I've had to compare prices on powdered lemonade & frozen lemonade
321 (as just ONE example)-- THE UNIT PRICES DIDN'T USE THE SAME UNITS!
322 I had to figure it myself, and I pity anyone who tries it 
323 without a fair amount of math background. I also pity anyone
324 who tries it with a calculator. I use an "obsolete" device-
325 a SLIDE RULE (anybody remember them?). MUCH easier! By the
326 way, anyone know where I can buy a circular slide rule (preferably
327 NOT plastic!)?
328 In any case, there are some minimums that I feel could
329 be agreed on for most subjects. I agree that we don't need to spend
330 as much time on math (in the lower grades) as is now spent. But
331 I still think that we should teach most of what is taught now.
332 You CAN'T get a proper estimate of what the right answer to a
333 division problem is (for example) unless you know SOME form of
334 division. If we start allowing calculators in the classroom,
335 I suspect that the "best" course might be to ignore story problems 
336 and the like until AFTER the kids get to the stage where we are
337 letting them use calculators in class, say third grade? Besides,
338 I haven't seen too many first graders who could hit the keys very
339 well! Just get the BASIC addition, subtraction, multiplication &
340 division out of the way and save everything else for later. Once
341 
342 the kid can do SIMPLE problems on his own I see no reason NOT to
343 let him (hell, ENCOURAGE him!) to use a calculator. (by simple,
344 I mean things like 237+185, 375-289, 327*23, 147/63). Fractions,
345 decimals, etc can come later (I'm not sure about when we should
346 hit them with negative numbers though!)
347 If I'd had a calculator, I would have done much better
348 in my math classes in 4th grade & up. Before then, I wouldn't have
349 learned anything except button pushing! (for what it is worth, a
350 friend says this is similar to what he has done with his kid)
351 Okay, now I've made some suggestions on minimum "education"
352 and some specific suggestions on math. Would anyone else care
353 to make some suggestions? (Note: I would prefer counter-suggestions
354 rather than direct criticism of MY suggestions. In other words-
355 don't criticize unless you can offer an ALTERNATIVE suggestion)
356 ___________________________Leonard___________________________
357 TO LEONARD: YOUR PROPOSALS ON MATH EDUCATION ARE ALL WET. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY 
358 CALCULATORS, COMPUTERS ETC YOU HAVE YOU CAN'T USE THEM WITHOUT AAN EDUCATION IN 
359 MATH. I KNOW FROM FIRST HAND. SURE I CAN BANG AWAY ON A KEYBOARD AND TALK TO YOU
360 BUT WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING ALGORYTHMS, STRINGS, AND SUBSETS ETC. I'M M
361 LOST BECAUSE I DIDN'T BOTHER TO LEARN MY CALCULUS, ALGEBRA, OR SCIENTIFIC NO
362 NOTATIONS WHILE I WAS IN SCHOOL. ONLY ENOUGH TO MAKE IT PAST THE NEXT TEST. ONLY
363 IF I'D KNOWN THEN HOW IMPORTANT THASE THINGS WOULD BE TODAY. OF COURSE BACK THEN
364 WHO NNNEEDED ALL THAT GARBAGE TO BE AN AUTO MECHANIC, OR A TV REPAIRMAN.
365 WE DEFINATELY NEED MATH IN THE SCHOOLS AND LOTS MORE OF IT, STARTING AS YOUNG AS
366 POSSIBLE, GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH LIFE. THE SAME GOES FOR LANGUAGES, BOTH N
367 NATIVE AND FOREIGN. I WAS LUCKY IN THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN LANGUAGE AND HAD T
368 TEACHERS THAT MADE IT INTERESTING FOR ME ENOUGH THAT TO THIS DAY I ENJOY BOTH 
369 THE SPOKEN AND WRITTEN WORD. PITY THAT MY MATH TEACHERS DID NOT INSTILL THAT S
370 SAME FASCINATION IN N ME FOR NUMBERS. IF THE ACADEMIC TUTORS WOULD SHOW JUST 1/2
371 THE ENTHUSIASM FOR THEUEIR SUBJECTS THAT THE COACHES DO WITH THE TEAMS WE COULD 
372 HAVE THE BEST EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IN THE UNIVERSE.
373 =====SO MUCH FROM THE OVER 50'S AGE GROUP
374 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
375 yea...so much for the over 50's age group. Just because you were foolish
376 enough not to take an interest in math when you were younger doesn't mean
377 Leonard's ideas are all wet! So you think you got screwed in math because
378 you 'only studied enough to get through the next test'. What bull, the blame
379 for your present condition rests on YOUR shoulders. The old cliche, 'you can
380 lead a kid to school, but you can't make him learn' is damned true! And like
381 leonard said, stop cutting down his proposals with insult, if you think you
382 have a better idea, let's here it. But let's not start criticizing everything
383 right and left!
384 
385 
386 
387 ========================================
388 
389 Then possibly it is the students fault for the condition of our educational
390 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
391 Lines 242-245 provide ELOQUENT evidence of today's public schooling, don't they!
392 Let's inject a bit more formality of evidence, may we?  Please document 
393 claims of studies, results, polls, counts, etc. so that other readers may
394 evaluate the sources of same for validity and for degree of applicability
395 to discussion at hand.
396 Elberich:  I'm not rich monetarily:  never have I earned more that $40,000
397 in any tax year; I AM my own one-man company; I am single, never married,
398 prepared to support my one remaining parent as he lives out his life (in
399 the same way he supported me as I grew); if I have some financial stability
400 , it's because I studied HOW to spend and HOW to save to suit my life plan.
401 I am concerned that the public school students may well be learning not
402 only how to survive without having to try (Where does the line form to get
403 my share...gimme, gimme), but simply not acquiring basic factual data
404 about life and how to use those facts as building blocks for personal
405 planning and decision making (instead of "Wow, man, like no hassle...if
406 it feels good, do it at least twice...").  If I felt I AND SOCIETY were
407 getting our money's worth of educational instruction, I wouldn't seek
408 an unsettling alternative to the present system.
409 Chuck:  Before you suggest that students know more of the system that we
410 who have nearly reached middle age, please consider that we have been thru
411 the ENTIRE system, we have had a chance to evaluate our post-schooling
412 years in terms of our educational preparedness (as did Leonard), and we
413 have had more broad life experiences upon which to thoughfully build a
414 viewpoint.  Speaking of aged things, shouldn't we who saw Sputnik and felt
415 the space-race intensify also lbe guided by some of that "high-tech" era's
416 sore spots ( which may be called failings by some): New Math has been
417 widely abandoned by public schools; today's teachers face the proficiency-
418 testing approach to evaluating their performance because they, earlier, or
419 the teachers before them allowed illiterate graduates; people here argue
420 that attention to the details of language, humanities, arts means little
421 when all around them the costs of being alive are ballooning because of
422 the actions of thoughtless, untrained, undisciplined fellow-citizens, 
423 whether in the scope of their jobs or during their leisure time.
424 When I see people here speaking of fear of high-tech and calling for
425 souped-up teaching, I feel compelled to offer that--
426   The mind that is full of facts, has learned to observe and evaluate
427   causal relationships, disciplines its attached body for its own sanctity
428   and for fairness to others, has developed confidence in its imagination
429   and its perceptions, and can anticipate the near-future because of all
430   these things is the well-trained, self-satisfying, socially concious,
431   enduring intelligence to be envied.
432 The public school CAN help produce this trained mind, and the exercised
433 body for it, if that is truly desired by those within the system.  What
434 manner of jolt to attract the attention of those who comprise the system
435 may be determined financially or politically, but rationally, I hope.
436 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Dave   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
437 WOULG SOMEONE PLEASE TRANSLATE THE ABOVE VERBOSITY INTO SIMPLE ENGLISH.
438 //////////////////////////////////////////
439 ----------------------------------------------
440    Anyone care to discuss something else? I am having a hard time connecting to this discussion anymore ... I guess mainly 
441 because I've been out if school for a long time, I don't pay property taxes, and I don't have any childern ...
442    You folks can continue if you wish but I'd like to discuss another topic if anyone would care to.
443 
444                   Paul
445 
446 ------------------------------------------------
447 Sorry, Paul, this does affect you. Property taxes aren't nearly the only cost
448 of education.   I get your point, though. Care to suggest one??
449 To whomever needs a translation of Daves's speech: without an education, you
450 can't think, if you can't think you can't survive in our world on your own,
451 and this means we need schools. Somehow it seemed to me to be in proper
452 American English.
453 
454 Does anybody out there know of a good photo club? As my schedule changes,
455 I may have time for one. What pix I have seen in several shows differ too
456 much from what I'm doing, and I would like to know why.
457 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
458 -------
459 -------
460 What is
461 
462 -------
463 ----------------------------------------
464   Wow! That was weird, 
465 apparently set the margin at 10, I
466 couldn't get passed the tenth column.
467     Anyway ... BAD, I originally started the AI discussion, so at the
468 moment I'Mm a little gun shy as far as
469 techno-topics is concerned.
470     I see that you shoot; I've done a little of that also over the
471 last couple of years ... what do you
472 like as subjects for your 'graghs?
473 
474                        Paul
475 
476 -----------------------------------------------
477 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
478 
479 My, my, things sure move fast on this system as of late.  Away for 1 day, and we've covered over 400 lines! Whew!!!!
480 Paul, I wouldn't worry about tech topics.  I enjoyed the discussion immensely, and the only reason the conversation 
481 moved away from AI was that we seemed to have reached a point where we had covered a lot of ground, and arrived at a  
482 place where we weren't going any further.  Re: the response to my last comments (or my last diatribe, depending on
483 your point of view), I have no objections to the points raised in the last comment on the previous disk, but I think  
484 that what I said applied perfectly to the remarks starting at line 25 (to which it was directed).  His basic idea was 
485 that (I quote) "the burden of education should be borne by those in public schools."  It was also stated that, as his 
486 children attented private schools, he deserved a tax break.  I feel that if anyone can afford private schools, they
487 can afford the taxes.  The burden of public schools belongs on all of us, and on each of us according to our ability
488 to pay.  Do our schools need changing?  Yes, very much so!  Voting on tax-base measure split between classes and
489 extra-curricular activities?  Sounds good.  But tax breaks for private schools?  I just can't go along with it.
490      Back to Paul.  I can understand your increasing lack of interest.  This discussion is now suffering from the     
491 same problem the AI one had, that is, its getting stale.  I have no fear of tech subjects, and I always enjoy your
492 remarks.  So the ball is in your court  ( uh....excuse the cliche ).  Oh, by the way, even if you rent, you pay       
493 property taxes.  They're just hidden within your rent.  The property owner is a businessman, and isn't going to just
494 eat the cost of the tax.  The same applies to all businesses that own property.  We pay the taxes eventually.
495 Everyone: Keep the controversy going!!! Its great to see!! 
496                     /Elberich\
497 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                                                               
498 --------------------------------------------
499 Elberich:
500   Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hadn't considered it before
501 but I see it as being very true about the cost being passed on ...
502 "If you don't see it, it doesn't happen
503 " seems to apply.
504   Care to discuss the ethics envolved in genetic engineering?
505                       
506                         Paul
507 
508 ------------------------------------------------
509 Unfortunately, elberich, you've made at least two assumptions that you have passed off as facts.  "The burden of public
510 schools belongs on all of us, and on us according to our ability to pay"  (a
511 loose quote.)
512 First assumption:  The burden of public schools belongs on all of us.
513 This assumes that the majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate
514 in a venture of the majority.  In effect, theft is being advocated here.  Theft,
515 from those who wish to have a private education, to those who for some reason get
516 a public education.  Can you justify this theft?  Would you try?  I think you
517 won't even admit it is theft.
518 Second assumption:  "...on us according to our ability to pay."
519 Unfortunately, the pro-tax people gradually tend to believe that the "progressive" 
520 tax system is the natural way of things, and to do otherwise is unnatural.
521 Indeed, they have already convinced themselves that to steal money from others is
522 ok as long as you call it 'taxes.'   
523 I doubt that you will want to get into a serious discussion of the moral
524 aspects of taxes, since most people of your beliefs get very nervous when their
525 underlying assumptions are questioned.  What, EXACTLY, justifies one person
526 taking money from another?  I dare you to try to answer.  Don't try to say
527 that "Congress says so" or "we voted for it"  or "The Supreme Court says it's
528 ok, since Congress interned the Japanese during WW2, the Supreme court 
529 affirmed it (and the Dred Scott decision, etc),  and almost no tax issues
530 are ever nationally decided anymore.
531 Let's hear some response.  And remember, the burden of proof is on
532 you, since you are the one who wants to tax me, not the other way around.
533 (Oh yes, I went to a PUBLIC SCHOOL)
534 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
535 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^To "::::::::"
536      You're quite correct.  There is no justification in this world other than self interest (which seems to be what
537 you're saying).  We all must do exactly what most benefits us.  And of course, very few tax issues are decided by 
538 vote (I even said that earlier).  We only get to vote on those taxes that our government feels we probably won't turn 
539 down.  And, as you said, "my kind" (whatever THAT means; human perhaps) doesn't seem to mind money going to help
540 those who can't help themselves.  You seem to be "the type" that would call me a "knee-jerk liberal", assuming that
541 such sloganeering proved something.
542      So, friend "::::::", let me put it in terms you can understand (self-interest, that is).  A society that won't
543 provide for the education of ALL of its people will find itself in a situation of increasing class distinction.
544 An elite, educated class, and and uneducated lower class.  The results of this are obvious in countries that have
545 taken this route.  Examine most of South America.  The lower class usually reaches a point where they can no longer   
546 tolerate the inequities, and something breaks.  Personally, I dispise communism, but it seems to be an easy answer
547 for desperate people.  So, from the point of self-interest, it is in our benefit to continue to have an upwardly
548 mobile society (which can only be brought about by the opportunity for education) in order for us to maintain our
549 nice, comfy places.  That is, or course, assuming you don't like revolutions.
550      "The majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate in a venture of the majority."  A better
551 definition of Democracy one could not ask for.  Are you telling me that you are against Democracy?  What other
552 options do we have?  Would prefer communism?  Or a monarchy?  How about anarchy?  I'm certainly not going to defend
553 taxes.  They are theft, indeed.  What else could they be?  But its a theft I will live with, and you probably will
554 too.  How else can we continue to support our society?  Or pay for more toys for our Generals?  If you can agree that 
555 ANY of the uses that our taxes are put to are worthy, then you can't argue against the very concept of taxes.  I'm
556 sure that you don't mind police protection, or nice roads for your car, or any of the benefits those of us with money 
557 get from our taxes.  How can you deny someone that can't afford private schools an education?
558      On a lighter note (?), I think you have got a good subject there, Paul.  What are the ethics here?  Does the     
559 geneticist have a duty to society?  I think that, before a new strain of bacteria or virus is brought into the world, 
560 the ramifications should be studied to death, and then studied again.  But we can't object to a new type of corn (for 
561 example) that will grow in the most infertile soil, or that has the ability to fix Nitrogen to help prevent soil
562 depletion.  What would we tell a hungry world?  That we found the idea offensive?  What would the moral action be?
563 Good job, Paul!!  Looks like we've got a new subject with potential!
564                    /Elberich\
565 
566 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
567 
568 ON AN EVEN LIGHTER NOTE.....                                                                                          
569 WHY DID BEETHOVEN SELL ALL OF HIS CHICKENS?                                                                            
570 BECAUSE ALL THEY WOULD SAY WAS "BACH....BACH.....BACH....BACH".
571                                                                                                                      
572 ......................................
573 ================================================================================
574 
575 
576  HOW DO WE ALL FEEL ABOUT GOVT INTERVENTION IN EDUCATION.......................
577 
578 
579 READ PG A-12 SAT OREGONIAN UPPER LEFT HAND CORNER......
580 
581 ARRESTING STUDENTS FOR THE COURSES THEY TAKE & THE COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM......
582 
583 ANY OPINIONS ?
584 
585 ================================================================================
586 
587 
588 
589 For another veiwpoint about taxes; look at a smaller economic unit - the
590 family. Many of the same economic dynamics apply in the family unit as
591 the larger state or national unit.
592 It could easily be argued that the financial support of the family is
593 parrallel to the tax situation, the only difference is that you know the
594 people the money is going to!
595 ========================================================================
596 For the person who had the guall to change my message on the
597 previous disk, KEEP YOUR DAMN HANDS OFF THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!!!
598 
599                        TRON
600 ================================================================================
601 
602 HEY FOLKS ..... THEY ARE ARRESTING STUDENTS BECAUSE OF THEIR NATIONALITY...
603 
604 IS THAT FAIR IN OUR DEMOCRACY....
605 
606 WHAT HAPPENED TO " I MAY NOT AGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEM " ?
607 
608 WHATS NEXT.....
609 
610 SUBVERSIVE PROGRAMS ?.... PERHAPS THEIR AUTHORS......
611 
612 I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT EVEN THE SMALLEST INFRINGEMENT ON AN INDIVIDUALS 
613 ABILITY TO STUDY WHAT THEY WISH AS THEY WISH HAS TO BE VIOLATION OF THEIR CIVIL
614 RIGHTS.......
615 
616 THEY DIDNT ARREST THE HARVARD STUDENT WHOS TERM PAPER GAVE A STEP BY STEP GUIDE TO MAKING YOUR OWN A-BOMB 
617 
618  THEY GAVE HIM AN "A"........
619 
620 ( ALTHOUGH THEY DID CLASSIFY THE PAPER )
621 
622 I PITY HIM NOW IF HE HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO BE A NATIONAL OF A UN-FRIENDLY 
623 COUNTRY .
624 
625 
626 ================================================================================
627 Some thoughts...
628   I don't care what you teach the kids, if you will also teach them Logic...
629 RATS! OUT OF SPACE! And I was just warming up....    the Phantom Glitch           8/13/83 @ 13:30, see you next disk..
