NUMBER OF LINES: 999
001=Usr:0 Null User         06/30/87 20:34  Msg:0 Call:0  Lines:19
  1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask...
  2$************************* INSTALLED: 18 JUL 89 ***************************
  3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II)  Mike Day System operator
  4$**************************************************************************
  5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
  6$                    PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
  7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately 
  8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general
  9$public.  No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.  As the
 10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all
 11$messages which I may find offensive.  Because of the limited size of the
 12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data
 13$can be saved).  To leave a message, type 'ENTER'.  Use ctrl/C to get out
 14$the ENTER mode.  The message is automatically stored.  If after entering
 15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to
 16$replace the line.  To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up.
 17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
 18$**************************************************************************
 19$ 
002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      07/18/89 23:06  Msg:4129 Call:22673  Lines:4
 20 In the world there are only two tragedies.
 21 One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.
 22 -- Oscar Wilde
 23 *************************************************************************
003=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/18/89 23:25  Msg:4130 Call:22674  Lines:15
 24 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Well golly gee! Look where I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 25  
 26 Hi everyone.  It looks like I get to start off this disk.  It too bad, 
 27 though, because I can't think of anything to really write about.  Now if I 
 28 were an egotistical boor, I would probably be gloating about being at the
 29 top, saying such things as "I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE 
 30 TOP!!!".  However, I am feeling it necessary to act humble right now, so I
 31 won't.
 32  
 33                               OLO
 34                              \___/
 35                                 U
 36  
 37 KKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Second up is still not the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 38  
004=Usr:498 Hagbard Celine ,  07/19/89 00:24  Msg:4131 Call:22677  Lines:77
 39 {}
 40  
 41    Society itself is shared fiction that is brought about by
 42 agreements made within a majority of people.  If every single person
 43 in the city of Portland were to stop for the moment and understand
 44 just how artificial "society" is, you would either see 1) total
 45 chaos and a loss of respect for humanity, or 2) complete, compromising
 46 harmony and understanding between people of all ages, races, creeds,
 47 religions, and sexes.  When you "break the law" by speeding 10 miles
 48 an hour over the "speed limit", you didn't break an actual PHYSICAL
 49 law, you simply conficted with the shared fiction that so many have
 50 a belief in.  However, by going so fast, you must be more acountable
 51 for your actions and driving (you assume a larger responsibility).
 52 But when s/he in that blue uniform and white car pulls you over
 53 and they step out, armed with a weapon, and "cite" you by removing
 54 priviledges (you are ticketed for money), then you can see the effect
 55 of a fiction upon the mind of another human beside yourself.  It's just
 56 not the same as trying to go faster than the speed of light - because
 57 the "law" (structure and composition of the shared fiction) can
 58 be changed by concensus, whereas you can not physically go faster
 59 than light because you will die ('you be squished like a
 60 cockroach beneed de foot'), and that you have no power to
 61 change.  Mao was right - power DOES come from the barrel of
 62 a gun, but only because you accept the concept.  You can,
 63 of course, not accept this and risk death, but you also stand
 64 a chance at changing the "society" in which you live - and
 65 effectively re-writting the rules of the fiction that
 66 most come to believe.  China could be a totally democratic nation
 67 in less than 2 days, as the concensus is there, but the ideaology
 68 has been so engrained into their lives (don't rebel, serve the
 69 state, ignore your needs) that they can NOT MUSTER A COMMON,
 70 SHARED BELIEF.  Which means, nothing will change until someone
 71 risks death.  But again, the fear of death is the beginning
 72 of slavery (not my quote, but I do agree with it).  So, they
 73 will recieve whatever they put into it.  I am NOT saying that
 74 the students who are being executed are deserving of their actions -
 75 moreover, I'm saying the the people of China have condemned them
 76 by their own inactivity.
 77  
 78    I just can't believe I wrote all of that mindless drivel.
 79  
 80    Sometimes it is very frustrating to "bend" my own personal rules
 81 to fit with that of society.  I don't care for competition -
 82 I just want to live my own life free of ethical hassles.  Yet I
 83 have changed so many "rules" and "understandings" within myself
 84 that I'm not too sure about what I have become.
 85  
 86    I've lost job opportunities because I'm a young white male.
 87 People look at me and say "you can't work with female superiors
 88 because young men at your age (18-23) are descriminating and
 89 sexist towards their supervisor (who is female)".  BullSh*t!  My
 90 curent supervisor is a 33-year-old white female, married, and
 91 has a son.  I have consoled with her about this matter (she is
 92 aware of my job search), and she feels that I am quite exceptional
 93 with my dealings in this matter, and that I am NOT a "chauvanist
 94 male pig".  Sometimes, I wonder if life could be simpler and
 95 direct without all of the pigsh*t of civilization.  It's veru
 96 (sp- very) tempting to just pack up and tell everything else to
 97 f*ck off.  If I did that, I would be arrested an thrown into
 98 jail for living on county/state/federal property.  My crime?
 99 Golly Gee, I just wanted to either make a living and be left
100 alone, or live my life as I please outside of civilization.
101 How can you play "The Game" when you can't even participate?
102 And the "rules" state that you can't drop out?  So what do
103 I do, rot every day where I sit?  And that's just about
104 all I can do.  It reminds me of a short poem I've read, a real
105 favorite of mine when things like this happen:
106  
107    Look!  Here's a ladder!
108    C'mon, let's climb!
109    The first rung is yours-
110    The rest are mine.
111  
112    Hagbard Celine, beaten by the System and forced into servitude.
113  
114 {}
115  
005=Usr:355 DAN QUALE         07/19/89 11:31  Msg:4132 Call:22683  Lines:4
116 HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOOD CHUCK CUM IF A WOULD CHUCK COULD CUM ON WOULD???
117 ::::::::::DAN QUALE::::::::::::::::
118  
119  
006=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/19/89 19:14  Msg:4133 Call:22701  Lines:2
120 wouldn't that be "Dan Qualude"? :)
121  
007=Usr:343 black art         07/19/89 20:20  Msg:4134 Call:22703  Lines:3
122 How much wood could a wood chuck up-chuck, if a woodchuck could up-chuck wood?
123                                         - Ed Meese
124 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
008=Usr:84 Michael Miller j  07/19/89 21:38  Msg:4135 Call:22704  Lines:21
125 &*&*&*&*`s
126  
127 Hagbard, It all boils down to that old and overused saying "Lifes a bitch."
128  
129 To live a life that has a minimum amount of hypocrisy etc would be very
130 hard. Few can do it, and as you surmise, it would require the removal of
131 oneself from sociaty at large. This is a difficult decision, but one
132 that some people make. For me this is really not an option, as I value
133 the company of others to much. This does not mean that you cannot 
134 live atleast somthing approaching a 'moral' life.
135  
136 It's really hard to explain the way it all works, even if you think you 
137 have some sort of a grasp. I guess that's why nobody has done a cool
138 <make that coherent.> and concise explanation. Most religions are 
139 just half assed atempts. 
140  
141 Onward and downward.
142  
143 An Astral Dreamer
144 &*&*&*&*`s
145  
009=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/19/89 22:17  Msg:4136 Call:22706  Lines:41
146 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Reality! Who needs it??????????????????
147  
148 I think the main problem that you're trying to deal with, Hagbard, is 
149 whether or not humanity can be considered a rational species.  Are people
150 genetically greedy and violent, or are they really peaceful at heart,
151 with society being the main factor causing all the problems in life?
152 Do are people so ingrained in the ways that they see around them, or can
153 they really face the truth of a matter with an open mind and no 
154 preconceptions?
155     Of course, these questions can never be answered, because society is
156 nothing more than the people in it, and people think differently. 
157 Some people are not prejudiced, open minded, and otherwise unset, and
158 others are exactly the opposite.  I think, however, that most of the 
159 people around are of the second type though. The problem is that it
160 is the majority of the people that make a society, and if the majority
161 is one which demands conformity, the society demands conformaty as well.
162 Any society that demands conformity creates people that conform, who in
163 turn demand conformity themselves, thus ingraining the society at large
164 even more.  It is an unfortunate spiral, but one that exhists nonetheless.
165 The only hope for really original people is to find some happy medium
166 between total rebellion (thereby opening oneself for punishment by 
167 the majority) or conformity (thereby losing oneself).  Escape is possible
168 (to a limited extent), but not very likely.  My advice basically that of
169 "to thine own self, be true" to which I usually add "f*ck the rest. What
170 do they know?
171  
172 As to being arrested for occupying federal lands, it is possible still
173 to claim land in various states for a certain fee (I think about $20).
174 This does show how our society operates though, to a certain extent.  
175 You have to pay the government a certain amount to use and hold (does
176 anyone truly "own" anything?) land which originally belongs to the
177 public that the government represents, when the public could probably 
178 care less whether or not you're on its land anyways (especially
179 since the public has to get the permission of the government that
180 represents its permission to use the land too).
181  
182 KKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Kill them all and let God sort them out!!!!!!!!
183  
184 So you don't want to go through 1.5 marriages, own 1.25 televisions and 
185 have 2.5 children?  Why not?
186  
010=Usr:4 Milchar           07/19/89 23:23  Msg:4137 Call:22707  Lines:5
187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
188 Because it's the fractions that get messy.  I mean, the extra .25 TV would
189 just spark and smoke, causing a fire hazard.  And I'll refrain from
190 commenting on the mess caused by the .5 child.
191 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
011=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill     07/20/89 15:42  Msg:4138 Call:22724  Lines:34
192 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
193  
194 to M:   I agree with your idea that evolution does not imply improvement, 
195         and that things which have evolved are not necessarily better than
196         their predecessors, however...  (in my very best Capt. Kirk voice)
197         "Ummm, I have a question..."
198  
199 if...
200 >    As always, right and wrong depend only upon the current belief of
201 > what is right and what is wrong. What is right and what is wrong changes
202 > with time and with the people's beliefs. 
203  
204 what is the meaning of...
205 >Rightness or wrongness has never been attributed to 
206 >evolution. That is a human reaction in an attempt to try to use the
207 >concept of evolution as validity for existance. This is what Hitler
208 >did and it rings the same way in your statement.
209  
210 Under the definition of right and wrong you gave this seems to mean:
211  
212 "At no time in history has the predominant belief attributed rightness
213  or wrongness to evolution. To do so is to react in a manner typefying
214  humans and to attempt to show that one's existance is 'right' by the
215  fact that one has evolved, instead of basing one's worth on the current
216  opinion of society.  A former world leader (currently believed to be
217  wrong) did this, and your statement suggests that you also do so,
218  and are therefore wrong."
219  
220 Is this what you meant?  Can society call itself 'right'?
221                                                                      _
222 "It's too bad that whole families have been torn                    /#)
223  apart by something as simple as wild dogs."             n   n   n (#/ 
224                                      -Jack Handey       / ~~~ ~~~ \/
225 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/___\___\
012=Usr:286 Jeff Marten       07/21/89 00:15  Msg:4139 Call:22736  Lines:45
226  
227  
228 {+}{+}{+}{+}
229  
230             The Beaverton Chamber of Commerce has asked the contributors 
231              to Backwater Message Service II to help them with a very 
232                                      special task.
233  
234             Many communities in Washington County now have lovely carved 
235              wooden signs on major highways greeting visitors with a 
236                            quaint and cheerful slogan. 
237  
238            The City of Beaverton would like to ask your help in choosing 
239               a slogan that best describes the special magic that is
240                                       BEAVERTON !
241  
242          
243                                       BEAVERTON
244                        Home of the Semi-Annual Left Turn Arrow
245          
246                                       BEAVERTON
247                                   Gateway To Aloha
248          
249                                       BEAVERTON
250                              The Lil' Town That TEK Built
251          
252                                       BEAVERTON
253                                 Satan's Traffic Grid
254          
255                                       BEAVERTON
256                     Teen Breeding Ground for the Great Northwest 
257  
258                                       BEAVERTON
259                                      Gresham West
260  
261                                       BEAVERTON
262                                    Malltown, U S A
263  
264  
265                                  -+|[ ThingFish ]|+-
266              How Can You Have Any Pudding If You Don't Eat Your Meat ?
267  
268  
269 {+}{+}{+}{+}
270  
013=Usr:322 Stray Cat         07/21/89 05:53  Msg:4140 Call:22739  Lines:3
271 The Groundwork for all faith is human woe ... He had a lover's quarrel
272 with the world.
273  
014=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman    07/21/89 14:51  Msg:4141 Call:22747  Lines:79
274 696969696969
275 APn  07/15/89 Copyright, 1989. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
276  
277    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Vice President Dan Quayle mistakenly credited a moo
278 landing to a congressman convicted of a sex charge, amusing a crowd of Young
279 Republicans at the group's national convention Saturday.
280    "This next Thursday, July 20th, will be an historic date for America as
281 America celebrates the 20th anniversary of Neil Armstrong and Buz Lukens walkin
282 on the moon," Quayle said.
283    He meant to say Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin, who followed Armstrong to become the
284 second person to walk on the moon on the Apollo 11 mission.
285    Donald "Buz" Lukens, a Republican congressman from Ohio, was convicted in Ma
286 of having sex with a 16-year-old girl.
287    Lukens, 58, was sentenced last month in Columbus to 30 days in jail and fine
288 $500 on the misdemeanor charge of contributing to the unruliness of a minor. He
289 is free on bond pending appeal.
290    Quayle, who spoke from index cards during remarks at the Nashville Conventio
291 Center, appeared to realize his mistake after the crowd began laughing at the
292 reference to Lukens. The vice president did not correct himself but did exchang
293 glances with his wife, Marilyn, who was also on the stage.
294    GOP Chairman Lee Atwater said he decided not to mention the gaffe when he
295 spoke to Quayle later, but the vice president brought it up.
296    "He said, `Buz Lukens, oooh,"' Atwater said, grimacing in imitation of
297 Quayle.
298    The convention of about 1,200 Young Republicans began Friday and ends Sunday
299  
300 APn  07/19/89. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
301 By RITA BEAMISH Associated Press Writer
302    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Just as Dan Quayle was settling comfortably into the vice
303 presidency, several fellows who helped put him there -- campaign advisers
304 borrowed from the Reagan entourage -- have provoked anger in the White House by
305 painting an unflattering portrait of his candidacy.
306    The old stories about Quayle being a lightweight, a foot-in-mouth campaigner
307 and a neophyte not up to the job he sought are revived in a new book, "Whose
308 Broad Stripes and Bright Stars? The Trivial Pursuit of the Presidency 1988," by
309 political columnists Jules Witcover and Jack Germond.
310    Derisive comments about Quayle's abilities come not from Democratic critics,
311 but from the GOP stable of advisers the Bush campaign assigned to help manage
312 Quayle -- among them political pros Stuart Spencer, Joseph Canzeri and James
313 Lake, all former advisers to President Reagan.
314    Their caustic assessments of Quayle's capabilities and their problems in
315 running his campaign paint a picture of a candidate who needed protection from
316 doing himself political harm.
317    Canzeri told the authors that Quayle "was like a kid. Ask him to turn off a
318 light, and by the time he gets to the switch, he's forgotten what he went for."
319 Canzeri said the handlers "knew we were going to have to script him."
320    Sometimes, the advisers said, Quayle exasperated and confounded them by
321 refusing to follow the script.
322    The book quotes Spencer as saying that he let Quayle scrap a prepared defens
323 speech in Chicago once and deliver his own rambling version so that the vice
324 presidential candidate would foul up publicly "and then we'll own him again."
325    Lake told of a time when "I just pushed him aside," to keep Quayle from
326 answering questions about his Vietnam-era National Guard service at a time when
327 it would have overshadowed George Bush's convention acceptance speech.
328    Longtime GOP consultant Ed Rollins, a former White House political director,
329 said any candid group of political people in town would have told the Bush team
330 that Quayle was a lightweight and should not be vice president.
331    President Bush is not happy about the characterizations.
332    "I find it offensive. I don't like it," he told reporters Tuesday. "That's
333 the ugly side of politics."
334    Bush noted Quayle has made two trips to Latin America for the administration
335 as well as heading the Space Council and contributing to Bush's morning staff
336 meetings.
337    "He's a good man and he deserves something better than a post-mortem kick in
338 the ... ankles," Bush said.
339    Ironically, the book comes out at a time when Quayle has received relatively
340 favorable portrayals in several media accounts.
341    Aside from an occasional gaffe -- he recently referred to moon-traveling
342 as riding in a car with his rear pressed against the side window.
343    Lee Atwater, Chairman of the Republican National Committee said,  "It really
344 doesn't matter much how smart or competent J. Danforth Quayle may be,  the
345 women voting the Republican ticket aren't too smart, and we expect them to vote
346 for him because he's cute.  It's one of our steps to forcing a Republican
347 majority in the House of Representatives on the public.  Besides most eligible
348 voters know the national elections have been fixed for years and know enough
349 not to vote.  But I'm too tired to think right now, so please no more questions
350                                                                                
351 696969696969696969
352                                                                           
015=Usr:343 black art         07/22/89 20:06  Msg:4142 Call:22764  Lines:3
353 Not voting is not the answer.  (They will just think you are appethetic.)
354 Vote no, "none of the above", "Mickey Mouse", Bill the Cat, or anyone else 
355 that sounds fun.  Remember:  Voting just pisses them off!!!
016=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/22/89 20:52  Msg:4143 Call:22765  Lines:4
356  
357 In the last two elections I voted for 'No Confidence' and 'Anarchy Now!'
358 Do they count?
359  
017=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      07/22/89 22:51  Msg:4144 Call:22771  Lines:52
360 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
361 Jack,
362    You've restated what I said differently. I'm not sure what you are saying
363 in it though since I don't know if you mean to have concepts hidden between
364 the lines. So let me phrase it in my own way;
365    Those who have presented the concept of evolution and thereby present the
366 defintion of evolution never applied the concept of right or wrong to the
367 concept of evolution. Those who are either unfamilur with the concept or
368 simply wish to use it to justify their own actions have applied the concept
369 of "rightness" to it in relation to their own actions. One in particular
370 (Hitler) who is currently considered "wrong" used the concept of evolution
371 as a mechanism to support the rightness of his actions. To do so is
372 not a valid statement. It is like saying a rock is right or wrong. 
373 How can a rock have a moral right or wrong concept attached to it's
374 existance?" It is incorrect to apply a moral judgment to the existance
375 of a thing. It exists. It is actions that we apply moral definitions to.
376  
377    "Can a society call itself 'right'?" Certainly. A society is but a
378 composite of actions which are defined as being either right or wrong.
379 Society is but a collection of rules regarding actions. When we do
380 something that society defines as being wrong, then we are considered
381 wrong and punished. When we do something considered right, then we are
382 applauded. 
383    The defintions by which society operates change as the beliefs of 
384 those in that society change. Consider that at one time society 
385 considered it accetable to own other people (slaves). That belief
386 has changed. It is no longer acceptable as a belief (though it is still
387 practiced in other forms which superficially hide that it is slavery).
388 In some societies it is not only considered accetable to eat people,
389 but in some cases it is considered an honerable thing to do. Yet
390 in the current general belief system of the majority of the societies 
391 in the world it is considered a horibly wrong thing to do. Many have
392 even gone so far as to state that it is an instinct not to want to eat
393 people. There is more than adquate evidence though to disprove that. 
394 It is rather a learned reaction. We are told from birth that it is wrong.
395 It is never brought forth that it might be "right". Even when we discuss
396 the societies that practic canibalism we do so with the pointed statement
397 of how wrong and barbaric they are. 
398 Does this mean that I'm going to have a nice big helping of mother-in-law
399 tonight? No, I'm throughly trained by the society I live in to find that
400 concept to be revolting. I do however recognise that it is a trained
401 response. 
402 Is it OK to kill someone? The first thing we say is, no. But what if it is 
403 in self defense? Then we say, well, OK, self defense is OK. But what 
404 about war? Is it OK to kill the enemy even though he may not be trying to
405 kill me perosnally? Well, yes it's OK, if he doesn't, one of his
406 countrymen might. You're fighting a nameless hord that are all the same.
407   We create rules to allow us to live with out collective beliefs, and
408 then warp them to deal with situations where the rules don't work
409 (is it any wonder that the soldiers themselves come out with a warped
410 view of the world?).
411 --------------------------- M ---------------------------------------
018=Usr:84 Michael Miller j  07/23/89 11:28  Msg:4145 Call:22778  Lines:19
412 &*&*&*&*`s
413 An interesting view M, and one I largly agree with. It is often interesting to
414 look at the compromises one makes. Why are these compromises neccasary?
415 Ussually it is because of an assumption we make about the world. Right or
416 wrong, these assumptions bind us to certain actions, and force us to
417 justify ourselves when we wish to break them.
418  ]It seems that to make any sort of assumption is to bind oneself to a 
419 narrower path in life. This is not always bad, as it has allowed our specias
420 to be very succesfull. But this success can also be our defeat, because 
421 we are rapidly eliminating all other forms of competition. At that point 
422 what is left? Will we turn upon each other? Isn't this very thing happening
423 today?
424  
425 Of course this competion is not a new thing, but it seems that in our 
426 sociaty atleast it is being applied more and more to other people.
427  
428 An Astral Dreamer
429 &*&*&*&*'s
430  
019=Usr:277 Schizo            07/23/89 16:14  Msg:4146 Call:22782  Lines:13
431 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
432 What is right?  what am I typing?  How do you know what I want you to
433 think when you read this?  How could you possibly understand what I am typing?
434 It's questions like this that prompt men to make silly rules that are usually
435 critisized by 99% of the world's population.  The one question I havn't heard
436 the answer to yet is:  What is the purpose of humanity?  If we had some overall
437 goal in mind we could make rules that were much more logical than what we have
438 today (Globally).  If our goal is to prove the most successful form of
439 government/economy by having wars every so often to prove which is better then
440 so be it,  it's the will of the people.  This doesn't sound like a very good
441 goal to me,  but it does happen to be the one that the world seems to be
442 running on right now.
443 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
020=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      07/23/89 20:49  Msg:4147 Call:22783  Lines:8
444 To above: Sounds like you need to take a course in comparative religon.
445 One of the primary purposes of religon is to answer the question "Why
446 am I here?"  For some people they can find the answer in the belief system 
447 presented by a particular religon. I personally have not been able to 
448 accept the belief systems presented because it requires acceptance of
449 a belief system about theworld that goes counter to my own. It does 
450 however provide the answer for some people.
451 ---------------------------------- M --------------------------------------
021=Usr:219 Friar Mossback    07/23/89 23:21  Msg:4148 Call:22786  Lines:33
452 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
453 The absolute question. "Why am I here."
454 It really can't be answered with logic or reasoning, Ayn Rand aside, nor
455 can faith be the only answer.  I can have faith all I want about something
456 that is not apparent, but if I feel a plane will fly when it has exceeded
457 the critical angle of attack for the wing, then no faith will keep me in 
458 the sky.
459 Religion must be logical, internally at least.  You can have magic, or 
460 miracles, but they must be consistent.  You can't say god is all good and
461 then say god is all powerful and then have a devil or d'evil about.  Those
462 concepts are internally inconsistent.  
463 To say that god is just and merciful is possible, but then we have to 
464 redefine our concepts of justness and mercy.  It might be a lot easier if
465 we made god less than all powerful.
466 Religion does provide hope.  That is good.  But it also provides hatred,
467 more burning than any nationalism has ever been.  Witness the hatred of
468 the muslims for all that is not islamic.  See the fundamentalist christians
469 rail against the homosexual community, saying AIDS is god's punishment.  See
470 the catholic church brand as permanent sinners those who would perform a 
471 surgical procedure.
472 It is easier for a religion to thrive amidst poverty and grief.  When a
473 person's belly is empty, he hears any voice that can help.  For a time.  
474 When the help is not forthcoming, the hope turns to hatred, just as fervent.
475 It may take time, generations even, but it does happen.  
476 It is only through self awareness and enlightenment that we can see what 
477 a mess we have made of this world, and only then can we realize that it
478 was ours to mess up.  We can have others.  We can try again.  Perhaps the
479 next time we will try the world with no pain a friend of ours wishes for.
480 Perhaps the one where we can all fly, that I wish for.  Or maybe another one
481 just like this one that we can do better this time.
482 I know, just ramblings of a deranged man, but even this has its logic.
483 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]   Friar    [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
484  
022=Usr:277 Schizo            07/24/89 00:45  Msg:4149 Call:22789  Lines:5
485 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
486 Merry Christmas!   Ho ho ho and all that feces.
487 Now imagine that in the Southern Hemisphere Christmas actually does come
488 in the middle of Summer!
489 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
023=Usr:84 Michael Miller j  07/24/89 13:09  Msg:4150 Call:22796  Lines:18
490 &*&*&*&*'s
491 John Dalmas writes some rather cosmic/interesting books in the sci-fi/fantasy 
492 field, must reads.
493  
494 As to why we are here, I would say that we will probably never really know. It
495 is possible that if we exist after death, that the answer is there, but I 
496 suspect that even if there is 'life' after death, we will still not have the
497 answer. It seems to me that the world works on many different levels, and 
498 under different scales, things look very different. Why should the rest of
499 the universe be any different? Perhaps those above us quest for the meaning 
500 of life, wondering why they are there, and what their purpose is. And perhaps
501 beyond them is another group of beings, etc.
502  
503 Infinity.
504  
505 An Astral Dreamer
506 &*&*&*&*'s
507  
024=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      07/24/89 21:57  Msg:4151 Call:22809  Lines:39
508 Many Eastern religons believe in reincarnation, in particular tied to
509 a increasing spiritual assendance. Usually going through stages of
510 life as various forms of animals. This is also why they often revere
511 animals. After all, it could very well be an incarnation of your 
512 one of your future desendants. 
513   This incarnation bit expands beyond just being human. There are usually
514 spiritual levels beyond just the human level. The general leason taught 
515 seems to be that we are here to learn how to be a better individual. 
516 If you screw up, you get sent back to a lower life form for remedial
517 training. when you do good you get to advance to the next level of life.
518  
519 Even so, I've generally not seen a religon state the overall meaning of 
520 existance. They tend to concentrate on the here and now because that they
521 can give answers to. "Your here to promote the glory of God, etc..."
522 But once you die, you go to Heaven and live happily ever after
523 (assuming you've been a good little boy or girl). That is usually a 
524 recurrent theme in all religons. But they never really cover what 
525 "happily ever after" is. When pressed the best you get is "you'll 
526 know when you get there." 
527    Of course the future is something that most people will accept
528 as being unknown when stated in the right way, and the religous 
529 organizations have had thousands of years to learn how to say it.
530 It is the here and now that mostpeople want answers to. 
531    One of the reasons people tend to get caught up in religon after
532 some personal disaster is because the first reaction is "why me? What 
533 I do to deserve this?" And the religous organization is right there with 
534 the answer, "because you are a sinful person and God is teaching you a
535 leason, but if you accept my belief system He will forgive you and 
536 you will be saved." Stated often enough, and having the lack of any
537 other explaination, some people will accept this and take the belief system
538 as their own. For some people this actually works, it pulls them out
539 of a downward self destructive spiral. That is the one thing a religon is
540 good for, throwing out a lifeline to pull in someone who needs an
541 anchor of suppor tin their life. The problem is that this is also the
542 negative aspect since the religon is unwilling to let go when the person
543 has out grown the need for that support, so they use a multitude of
544 brainwashing technics to insure that the person is unable to break
545 away from the tight circular thought patterns they set up. 
546 --------------------------------- M -------------------------------------
025=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill     07/24/89 23:15  Msg:4152 Call:22813  Lines:62
547 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
548 The following is some thoughts on the discussion up to the "comparative
549 religion" point... I'm gonna have to think about the rest of this for a 
550 while...
551 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
552 M:
553     Oops, (should have made this more clear) I'm not Jack, he's just the
554 one who wrote the quote at the end of the article.
555     I tried my best to keep my own ideas out of the paraphrase.  I was 
556 attempting to construct an example to illustrate why I disagreed with the
557 first statement.  I thought it best to use something from the article 
558 (which you already accept as true) rather than to make up something which
559 you may or may not agree with.
560     I guess I see right and wrong as something that exists already, and
561 that people are trying to figure out, instead of being something they
562 define for themselves.  I think that's why people have and have had 
563 different views of what is right, and will continue to update their 
564 views as they learn more about morality.
565     I don't think the differing answers to the question of killing shows
566 that we have taken a rule and kludged it.  I think it is more like three
567 views of the same thing.  If you ask whether 2+2=11, my first answer is
568 no, but if you say, "what if the numbering system is ternary?" then I say
569 yes.  The answer has changed, not because the first answer was wrong 
570 within its context, but because the context has changed.  We haven't 
571 "warped" addition to suit our purposes, we have uncovered another aspect
572 of mathematics.
573  
574 AD:
575     I suppose the only reason we make assumptions or compromises is 
576 that we deem them necessary or valuable.  We bind ourselves to certain
577 actions because we feel they are better than other actions.  When we 
578 wish to do something that would counter one or more of our assumptions,
579 we must logically justify it.  I think this is a good thing.  Otherwise
580 we become hypocritical.  Even if people define their own moralities (and 
581 everyone *does* have to work with what they've got), hypocrisy is wrong.
582  
583 SCHIZO (nice Morse):
584  
585     I like Cicero better: "Men were brought into existance for the sake
586     of men that they might do one another good."
587  
588     But you're right.  I can say nothing about what anybody else is
589 thinking.  I may think that their conclusion is wrong, but I can't say 
590 they made an error in finding it, since I don't know their assumptions.
591 For all I know, the cannibals are doing what they think is the best 
592 thing to do.  This doesn't make it right to eat people, but it does 
593 exempt them from fault in doing so.
594  
595 M:  I probably wouldn't go around looking at religions unless I felt some-
596     thing lacking in my beliefs.  "This above all: to thine own self be
597     true."  If you find fault with your belief system - remedy it!  Maybe
598     you will find the remedy in adopting a new belief system.  Maybe it
599     will come by changing your view of something.  Whatever happens, you
600     will inevitably find a better truth than you had before, whether you
601     augment your beliefs or reject a portion of them.  But if you find 
602     nothing wrong with the system you have, I see no reason to change it.
603  
604 "Too bad you can't buy a voodoo globe so that you could make the     _
605  Earth spin real fast and freak everybody out."                     /#)
606                -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts"             n   n   n (#/ 
607                                                         / ~~~ ~~~ \/
608 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\
026=Usr:286 Jeff Marten       07/25/89 02:16  Msg:4153 Call:22818  Lines:24
609  
610  
611 {+}{+}{+}{+}
612  
613                   Hoo Boy...Let's lighten this up.....
614                          F  I  S  H  N  E  W  S 
615                        Dateline : Rashneesheland
616  
617 {        Long since let loose from the hoosegow, sprung from the 
618          cooler and out of the pokey, Ma Anan Sheela's been out of 
619          jail long enough to get ready for more trouble. Those wacky 
620          gurus are gassin' up the Lear Jets and gettin' set for 
621          another round of Hindu highjinx. Better haul that homestead 
622          off the real estate listings and lay low 'cos the robed 
623          Rashneeshees are lookin' for a ranch in YOUR town and they 
624          wanna poke YOU in the butt with a syringe full of the 
625          Bagwan's special salad dressing. Run for your lives !
626  
627                            -+|[ ThingFish ]|+-
628                       Gimme That Ole Time Religion
629  
630  
631 {+}{+}{+}{+}
632  
027=Usr:116 Michael Gray      07/25/89 04:01  Msg:4154 Call:22819  Lines:8
633 __________________________________________________
634 swob:  This might be old news, but could you tell
635        this recently returned BW-vet what the
636        graphic illustration is that appends your
637        entries?  I've tried and can't figure it.
638 ______________________________________________mg__
639@ 
640@ 
028=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman    07/25/89 10:49  Msg:4155 Call:22822  Lines:100
641 696969696969                                                                   
642              SMOKE, SMOKE, SMOKE THAT CIGARETTE--`DOONESBURY' DRAWS SMOKERS:-7/
643     In a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip, cartoonist Gary Trudeau tweaked the 
644 tobacco industry for using ads that he says urge kids to smoke. His cartoon 
645 character, "Mr. Butts," points to a coupon from the Tobacco Institute for free 
646 cigarettes for the underaged. In just one week, the cigarette manufacturer's 
647 association has gotten 200 of the coupons, many filled out by adolescents.
648     Lee Salem, editorial director for Universal Press Syndicate that sells 
649 "Doonesbury," says he's surprised by the response a July 9 strip on cigarette 
650 advertising received when hundreds of kids sent in coupons for free cigarette 
651 samples. But it proves Trudeau's point, he says. It's an example of the 
652 problem Trudeau sought to expose: Children are vulnerable to cigarette 
653 advertising.
654     The Tobacco Institute is upset about the free-sample requests youngsters 
655 are making in response to a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip. The institute doesn't 
656 distribute cigarettes, says spokesperson Brennan Dawson. Moreover, the 
657 industry does not advocate children smoking. The Institute is mailing each 
658 respondent a brochure that says smoking should remain an adult custom.
659 TEENS LIGHT UP BY EXAMPLE:-7/25/89
660     Teenagers who smoke start because they see their friends and parents 
661 lighting up, a new survey found. Response Research of Chicago questioned more 
662 than 1,000 teens who smoked, and found peer and parental example was the main 
663 reason they started smoking. Average age of first-time smokers: 13. Most of 
664 the teens said they bought cigarettes over the counter, seldom using vending 
665 machines.
666     Congress is considering legislation that would severely limit cigarette 
667 advertising and limit the sale of cigarettes to minors. The House subcommittee 
668 on Transportation and Hazardous Materials will begin hearing testimony Tuesday 
669 on House Resolution 1250. Scheduled to testify: health officials, cigarette 
670 manufacturers and industry experts.
671                                                                                
672                          HILLS DEFENDS LOBBYING PIERCE:-7/18/89
673     U.S. Trade Representative Carla Hills Monday defended lobbying ex-HUD 
674 Secretary Samuel Pierce. Hills said she met with Pierce in 1985 after two HUD 
675 officials refused to lift limits on a finance firm whose bad loans have cost 
676 more than $500 million. "... I have never abused the use of access," Hills, 
677 HUD secretary from 1975-77, told a House subcommittee investigating the HUD 
678 scandalc.
679 FORMER HUD HONCHOS GAVE TO GOP:-7/24/89
680     Two former Housing and Urban Development officials who have been severely 
681 criticized for allegedly using inside information to garner $130 million in 
682 HUD housing contracts contributed heavily to the campaigns of key GOP 
683 politicians. Recipients of $1,000-$2,000 include: Sens. John Danforth, R-Mo.; 
684 John Heinz, R-Pa.; Robert Kasten, R-Wis.; Steve Symms, R-Idaho; and Alphonse 
685 D'Amato, R-N.Y.
686     Department of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Jack Kemp's ill-
687 fated presidential campaign received funds from Philip Winn, a former HUD 
688 official criticized for using inside information to garner contracts, reports 
689 Gannett News Service. Kemp received $2,000 in campaign contributions from 
690 Winn, a former undersecretary for housing and now ambassador to Switzerland.
691 HUD INVESTIGATION CRITICIZED:-7/25/89
692     Investigators in the HUD scandal attacked the Justice Department Monday 
693 for not pubsuing its own investigation of fraud. "They're saying, `If any of 
694 you catch a crook, we'll prosecute,' " said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. The 
695 comments came after the department decided not to prosecute ex-HUD worker 
696 Thomas Demery for his work for a charity whose donors included developers with 
697 HUD business.
698                                                                               
699 As Lee Atwater, chairman of the National Republican Committee said:  "We'll 
700 continue to federally subsidize the tobacco industry so they can hook the
701 young,  then, we'll rip off HUD so they can sleep in the streets, so if the
702 lung cancer doesn't get them, pneumonia will.  Then we'll spend the rest of the
703 country's resources on the B-2 and a trip to Mars.  It is this kind of logic
704 and concern for the American public that will insure us a Republican majority
705 in the House of Representatives again."   (Or actions to that effect)
706                                                                             
707                         AIR FORCE FLIES STEALTH:-7/18/89
708     The B-2 Stealth bomber completed what Air Force officials called a 
709 "picture perfect" first flight from Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., Monday. 
710 The price tag for each plane is about $530 million. Earlier tests had been 
711 delayed until Monday due to a low fuel pressure reading.
712     Congress remains unconvinced about the B-2 "stealth" bomber despite 
713 Monday's successful first flight of $530 million plane. The next showdown over 
714 the B-2 will come later this month when the House votes on the 1990 defense 
715 budget. Already, the House Armed Services Committee carved $800 million from 
716 the Air Force's $4.7 billion B-2 request.
717 CONGRESS ADDRESSES B-2 MONEY:-7/25/89
718     Congress picks up debate Tuesday on a $305 billion defense bill that pits 
719 military might against fiscal frugality. Even as the House and Senate 
720 considered the measure Monday, President Bush and his deputies were lobbying 
721 hard for the costly B-2 Stealth bomber. The radar-eluding aircraft's fate will 
722 be known Wednesday, when the House votes to trim Bush's B-2 request or 
723 mothball the program.
724                                                                              
725                        DEBATE - SPACE  USA TODAY'S OPINION:
726     To be sure, earthly problems could use the money we'd spend in space. They 
727 are reasons to keep the space program in perspective, somewhere between the 1 
728 percent of our budget it uses now and the 4 percent at the peak of the Apollo 
729 program. But they are not reasons to root ourselves to Earth.
730  OTHER VIEWS:
731     JOSEPH P. MARTINO, senior scientist at the University of Dayton Research 
732 Institute: Twenty years ago, Neil Armstrong made "one giant leap for mankind." 
733 Since then, manned space exploration has been one giant leap forward, two 
734 giant leaps backward. What went wrong? In a word, NASA.
735     JULIANNE MALVEAUX, economist and writer: Where do we go from the moon? To 
736 Mars? If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we eliminate hunger, cure 
737 cancer or curb the spread of the fatal AIDS virus? These goals are as 
738 attainable as a Mars walk or a space shuttle.
739                                              ..or maybe even more so....
740 696969696969696969
029=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/25/89 12:54  Msg:4156 Call:22824  Lines:18
741  
742 KKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Politicians run rampant! What else is new?????
743  
744 Things just get better and better, don't they?  Do you realize that most
745 of the advertisements put out by the tobacco industry are targeted (I do
746 mean *targeted* ) at people under the age of 14?  I mean, who but a child
747 would be impressed by the camel adds stating "Smooth Character"?  All 
748 they are saying is "Smoke and you'll be cool" to the underaged.  After 
749 all, cigarrettes are killing off their old vict.. er customers, and they
750 need a new batch to continue ripping off.  The average 13 year old 
751 probably has a good 20 years ahead of him/her to throw away money on
752 cigarrettes before they finally kill him/her.
753  
754 And to think that we actually give our tax money to companies that do
755 this sort of thing.
756  
757 KKKKKKurfur Redlig | Doonesbury is right. Kids are in danger!!!!!!!!!!!!!
758  
030=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY      07/25/89 20:12  Msg:4157 Call:22832  Lines:70
759 swob, 
760   I'm not saying that you should go looking at other religons because you 
761 need to change your belief system, rather you should look at them so
762 that you can better understand why they think the way they do. 
763 I have my own belief system that I am comfortable with, but I also like
764 to observe other belief systems so that I can better understand where they
765 are coming from. The canibal thing  is a good case in point. By our belief
766 system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't
767 make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so."
768 Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the
769 same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one. To them it would be
770 the same as not showing up for the funeral of a loved one. It shows that
771 you have no respect for the person. Thus if you did respct the person,
772 YOU would be wrong in their belief system to NOT eat the person. 
773 In your belief system it is wrong to eat the person, in their belief 
774 system it is worng NOT to eat the person. 
775    I don't agree that right and wrong are something that exist outside
776 of the human mind. Morality is a distinctly human thing. We created it 
777 to control our society. It's 'right' to do this, its 'wrong' to do that.
778 But, over the years what is defined as right and what is defined as wrong
779 has changed. The definition can even change within our own minds depending
780 on circumstance. I know one person at work who considers it very wrong
781 to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back
782 to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story.
783   Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included),
784 yet to him it is perfectly acceptable beleif system. For him it is right.
785 Thus he has his own morality. I have no desire to change his belief
786 system, just as I have no desire for anyone else to demand that I change
787 my belief system. I do have concern as a friend that he understand the
788 consiquences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he 
789 understands the major social belief system and is still happy working
790 with his own morality, then I'm happy. 
791    I have no problem with people having a differnt belief system, in
792 fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It
793 allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that
794 there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they 
795 believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are mearly different.
796 To paraphrase an old American hero, 'I ma not agree with what you 
797 believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it!"
798    There is one other aspect that does bother me though, and I will usually
799 point it out when I see it, it is when a person uses one line of thought
800 to dispute something counter to their belief system, and then turn right
801 around and use the very same argument to support their own belief system.
802 This is usually indicative that they are echoing someone elses thoughts
803 and have not really thought about it themselves. That's why I got into 
804 this whole evolution debate in the first place, I saw an argument 
805 about evolution being defined as being wrong to be used to support 
806 a belief system, and then turning right around and using it to support
807 their own point. 
808    I have a desire for people to truely understand the beliefs that they
809 promote and that it not just be an echo from someone else. If you support
810 it, then you should understand the basis behind it and why you support it.
811 That's why I like to know about other forms of belief, it allows me to 
812 better understand my own belief system. Occasionally I will change a
813 portion of my beleif system because I have found new and better information,
814 and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief.
815 Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system
816 are how we grow. When you do not accept that it can change, then you
817 will not seek new information that might change the structure. When
818 youdo not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant 
819 information system, and that means that you cannot grow. 
820   But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of
821 my own answer t the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is
822 something that is important to me. Not just one specific field, in fact,
823 I tend to not get very deep in any field because it prevents me from 
824 being able to learn in other areas. I am always seeking out new 
825 information, learning about other ways of thinking, other ways of doing,
826 other ways of existing. The beauty is in the infinant variety.
827 I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn.
828 --------------------------------- M ------------------------------------
031=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill     07/26/89 01:39  Msg:4158 Call:22841  Lines:121
829 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
830 > The cannibal thing is a good case in point. By our belief
831 > system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't
832 > make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so."
833 > Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the
834 > same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one. 
835  
836   I probably wasn't too clear here.  What I meant by this is that they 
837   *haven't done anything wrong* if they really think it is the right thing
838   to do.  The "doesn't make it right" clause might be better phrased as
839   "doesn't make it right or wrong" since the *actual* morality of an act
840   has nothing to do with whether they are being hypocritical about their
841   beliefs.  If they honour their dead by eating them, so be it!  Indeed at
842   this point I would say it is a matter of taste (*please* pardon the pun)
843   rather than of morality, since it is the honouring that is the good thing.
844  
845   (Incidentally, my first impression was that they killed people in order
846   to eat them, and considered this to be good.  While this is an extreme 
847   case, I would still say they were not to blame, so long as they were 
848   going along with their beliefs.)
849  
850 > I know one person at work who considers it very wrong
851 > to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back
852 > to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story.
853  
854   So long as he *really* *believes* that this is good, and his system is
855   coherent, his motives are good.
856  
857 >   Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included),
858  
859   I wouldn't if he doesn't *know* that he's doing anything wrong - that 
860   is, if he's not violating his own rules (or fails to see that he is 
861   violating his own rules) - then he is not being hypocritical, however
862   wrong his actions are.  This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I  
863   think it has to be this way.  Since I know essentially nothing of what 
864   this person is thinking, nor how he is coming up with these actions, I 
865   can't blame him for doing them.  If I am to believe in an objective 
866   reality of good and bad at all, I must *NOT* say that wrong acts 
867   necessarily come from malicious thinking.  It would be like saying all
868   arithmetic errors are directly attributable to the deliberate actions of
869   those who calculate them.  Hypocrisy can only only be truly known by
870   the hypocrite himself.
871  
872 > yet to him it is perfectly acceptable belief system. For him it is right.
873  
874   Perhaps it is, I cannot say.
875  
876 > I do have concern as a friend that he understand the
877 > consequences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he 
878 > understands the major social belief system and is still happy working
879 > with his own morality, then I'm happy. 
880  
881     As a member of society, he is of course obliged to obey the laws of
882   society, and to face the consequences if he does not.  I would say this
883   is quite separate from whatever internal system he is using to guide and
884   justify his actions.  In short, I agree.
885  
886 >    I have no problem with people having a different belief system, in
887 > fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It
888 > allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that
889 > there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they 
890 > believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are merely different.
891  
892   I do hope I'm not the target of this paragraph.  I've never said that 
893   there aren't other systems of belief that don't match mine.  To do so
894   would be to ignore the facts.  I have only said that I believe there
895   to be *something* that is right, and I intend to try my best to find
896   it.  Whether I have done that already is obviously something I don't
897   know (though my experience inclines me to believe I haven't fully).
898   If I find at some future date that what I think now is partially or
899   totally wrong (this occurs *daily* in small ways), then I will change
900   what I think.  But to say that nothing is right or wrong at all seems
901   to me to refute any *REASON* to change.  Why on earth should I wish to
902   exchange one illusion for another?  Surely not for the sake of variety?
903  
904 > Occasionally I will change a
905 > portion of my belief system because I have found new and better information,
906 > and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief.
907 > Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system
908 > are how we grow.
909  
910     Now I'm confused.  This looks a lot like what I just said.  If there
911 is no such concept as 'right' or 'wrong', 'good' or 'bad'.  Then what
912 does 'better information' mean besides 'more good' or 'more true' or 
913 'more logical' information?  What does 'grow' mean except 'progress to a
914 better (not simply different) state'?
915  
916 > When you do not accept that it can change, then you
917 > will not seek new information that might change the structure. When
918 > you do not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant 
919 > information system, and that means that you cannot grow. 
920  
921    Ah, I see your point; perhaps I have neglected some of the various
922    religions (though I have read a bit of Confucius, the Bible, Cicero,
923    etc.).  I'm always reading new material, and have a general idea
924    of many religions, as well as where I "get off" as to their teachings,
925    and why.  Often after the "get off" point, I simply stopped looking 
926    there.  It made sense to me (still does), but your point is well-
927    taken.  At present I find no great logical opposition to my belief
928    system, so I haven't been looking at others, but simply trying to
929    expand on the one I have.  I do hope I'm not stagnating by not 
930    actively seeking a *completely* new belief system, but do realize
931    that I must feel that I am on the right track, or I wouldn't believe
932    what I do in the first place.  My beliefs are constantly changing, 
933    though there are some I have held for a very long time.
934        I do, however, agree that I should read more about religions in 
935    order to *understand* them, if not believe them.  I suppose we are
936    doing that with this discussion (because if you get down to it, any
937   belief system is a 'religion').
938        But I wonder about your last statement.  Obviously you see the
939    condtion of growth as more favourable that that of stagnation.
940    Or am I misunderstanding something?
941  
942 >   But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of
943 > my own answer to the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is
944 > something that is important to me.
945  
946     Why?  If not for the sake of truth?  I'm not trying to badger here, 
947 I'm truly interested in finding out why you find learning important.
948  
949 > 
032=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill     07/26/89 02:14  Msg:4159 Call:22842  Lines:21
950 > I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn.
951              ^^^^^                               ^^^^^
952    Then you see value in truth, right?  Perhaps we are not so different
953 as we might think.
954  
955 "One thing that makes me believe in UFOs is,                         _
956  sometimes I lose stuff."                                           /#)
957                -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts"             n   n   n (#/ 
958                                                         / ~~~ ~~~ \/
959 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\
960                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
961 ohyes, to mg, the illustration at right is a Blancmange from the planet
962 Skyron in the Galaxy of Andromeda.  It is a (rather obscure) reference
963 to an old Monty Python sketch in which the Blancmanges turn all the
964 inhabitants of England into Scotsmen (who promptly march off to their
965 homeland) so that they (the blancmanges) may win Wimbledon (hence the
966 tennis racquet).  In the end the would-be-victor is eaten by Mr. and
967 Mrs. Samuel Brainsample, also from the planet Skyron, who are 
968 fortunately accustomed to such large blancmanges.
969 */*/*/*/*/*/*/
970 quick! somebody fill this disk!
033=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig     07/26/89 10:24  Msg:4160 Call:22846  Lines:29
971  
972 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!!!!!!!
973  
974 swob,
975 	I think you forgot to mention that the Blancmanges did not win 
976 Wimbeldon, but rather, that it was won by Angus Podgorney, an unassuming
977 Scottish men's fashion designer (he manufactured kilts), thereby finally
978 defeating the plans of the pastries from outer space and becoming the 
979 first Scottsman to win Wimbledon (as well as any other large international
980 sporting event).
981  
982 	In response to some of the previous comments in some of the previous 
983 messages, I must state that a state of being good or bad does not
984 necessarily also mean better or worse.  It was stated that for one to 
985 believe in there being 'better information' they had to believe in the
986 concepts of good and bad.  That is not necessarily true.  Better 
987 information could just mean that it was more accurate, from a more 
988 reliable source, or made more sense.  It does not have to be catagorized
989 as good because of its accuracy, only as more accurate than previous
990 data, and therefore better than previous data.  Whether information is
991 'more gooder' or 'more badder' (for want of better expressions) depends
992 on what the reciever of the information wants to hear.  If, during a war,
993 a general recieves information that half troops were dead, and there was
994 reliable evidence to back up this info (pictures etc.), while a wild
995 rumor earlier said that the general had only lost one eighth of his
996 troops, the info that half were dead would be regarded as better, but 
997 'badder' information than the rumor.
998 	I think I've rambled on enough for now.  See you next disk!
999 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | At the top and at the bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
