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FILE ON
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ************************** REMOVED: 2 OCT 83 ***********************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 HI SUE IN PORTLAND IM HAVING A GRAT DEAL OF FUN PLAYING WITH THE COMPUTER 
26 PLEASE CALL ME AS SOON AS YOU READ THIS MESSAGE.
27 
28 
29                                  TERRY IN SALEM
30 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
31 THIS IS V-E-R-Y INTERESTING. WE START
32 WITH RELIGION IS A ROOT OF ALL WARS
33 (BLAMING RELIGION) THEN GRADUATE TO HOW
34 POWER-MONGERS USE RELIGION TO RALLY THEIR PEOPLE.
35 NOW SPEAKING OF LOGIC--HOW CAN YOU BLAME
36 RELIGION FOR THE WAY SOME CHOOSE TO USE
37 IT. NOW YOU ARE BLAMING THE POWER-MONGERS
38 AND THEN SHIFTING BLAME TO RELIGION.
39 AS TO GOD'S CAPABILITY IN RUNNING THE
40 WORLD (SUPPOSING GOD EXISTS), IF GOD
41 WIPED OUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MADE A-BOMBS
42 AND GERM WARFARE AND TERRORISM, ETC.,
43 WHAT KIND OF OUTCRY WOULD BE RAISED THEN?
44 IE HOW CAN ANYONE CHOOSE THEIR OWN WAY
45 WITH THE THREAT OF IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION
46 HANGING OVER THEIR HEADS IF THEY BLOOK
47 CROSS-EYED AT SOMEONE THEY'RE NOT MARRIED
48 TO. "WE'RE ROBOTS...CAN'T MAKE OUR OWN
49 CHOICES--OUR OWN MISTAKES!!" WE HEAR THAT
50 FROM TEEN-AGERS ABOUT THEIR PARENTS
51 ALREADY--SO WE KNOW IT WOULD HAPPEN. NOW
52 THAT WE MAKE OUR OWN MISTAKES WE BLAME
53 (WHATEVER GOD THERE IS) FOR ALL OUR "HIS" PROBLEMS. WHEW!!!! TALK ABOUT LOGIC!
54 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE)))))))))))))))))))
55 
56 
57 
58 
59 
60 
61 
62 
63 
64 
65 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
66 WELL NOW!
67 WAYNE JUST ABOVE ME HERE HAS MANAGED TO WRITE OVER THE TOP OF MY MESSAGE,
68 ERASING EVERYTHING EXCEPT MY !!!!! LINE, SO HERE GOES AGAIN. HOPEFULLY THE 
69 ABOVE WAS ACCIDENTAL RATHER THAN JUDGEMENTAL, AND THIS COPY WILL STAY.
70 
71 PAM : THERE IS A GREAT BODY OF WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE BY RATHER FAMOUS
72 FIGURES IN THE FIELD OF LOGIC AND PHILOSOPHY THAT TENDS TO SHOW THAT
73 LOGIC IS INDEED A RATHER LIMITED TOOL FOR THE SOLUTION OF ANY HUMAN PROBLEM
74 OR FOR THE CONDUCT OF HUMAN REASONING. IT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY EVRYONE
75 FROM ST. THOMAS AQUINAS TO EMMANUAL KANT TO WHITEHEAD THAT THERE IS NO
76 WAY TO PROVE THAT LOGIC BEARS ANY RELATIONSHIP TO REALITY. THAT WE BELIEVE
77 IT DOES IS ONLY A BELIEF, AS IS TRUE OF THE USE AND MISUSE OF STATISTICS
78 AS WELL. THERE IS ALSO A GREAT DEAL OF EMPIRICAL BACKGROUND TO SHOW
79 THAT FORMAL LOGIC HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE PROGRESS OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE
80 OR REASON.
81        I BELIEVE THAT YOU MAY BE CONFUSING REASON WITH LOGIC. REASON IS
82 A MUCH LESS RIGOROUS PROCESS. ALL OF THE OBJECTIONS TO THE ARGUMENTATIVE
83 TECHNIQUES USED HERE ON BMS ARE JUST THAT - NOT OBJECTIONS TO INCORRECT
84 LOGICAL CONSTRUCTS,E.G. POINTING OUT THE INCORRECT CONSTRUCTION OF 
85 SYLLOGISMS. IT IS WORTH NOTING HERE THAT IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT
86 MEANINGFUL SYLLOGISMS IN ORDINARY ENGLISH, AND THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE
87 USING THIS BOARD CAN BE EXPECTED TO BE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE OF
88 FORMAL PHILOSOPHY, INCLUDING MYSELF. 
89       THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT OBJECTING TO A ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE
90 CAN'T BE A VALUABLE OBJECTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE VERY LONG TO
91 REALIZE THAT MANY COMMON ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUES ARE UNFAIR AND COUNTER
92 PRODUCTIVE. ESPECIALLY WHEN DIRECTED AT ONESELF. THIS HAS NOTHING TO
93 DO WITH FORMAL LOGIC THOUGH. 
94     
95 " AM I NOT GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO SAYING THAT IN THE END LOGIC 
96 CANNOT BE DESCRIBED? YOU MUST LOOK AT THE PRACTICE OF LANGUAGE...."
97 "....IT WOULD ALSO STRIKE ME AS NONSENSE TO SAY 'I KNOW THAT THE THEORY
98 OF INDUCTION IS TRUE'........"
99                   (LUDWIG WITTGENSTEIN, "ON CERTAINTY")
100 
101    WHAT I THINK IS THAT LOGIC PROBABLY LESS IMPORTANT THAN INTUITION, 
102 RESTLESNESS, ARGUMENTATIVE ATTACK, THE DESIRE TO WIN OUT OVER OTHERS,
103 CREATIVE DESIRE, EMPIRICAL REASONING, LIFE EXPERIENCE,ETC. IN THE
104 PROGRESS OF HUMANITY AND HUMAN REASON. 
105 
106 HOWEVER, I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOUR OBJECTIONS TO ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE,
107 EXCEPT ONE, ARE VALID AS LONG AS WE AGREE THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING
108 ABOUT FORMAL LOGIC. THAT ONE IS THE USE OF ANECDOTAL MATERIAL, WHICH
109 IS CRITICAL FOR THE PROCESSES OF LEARNING AND ANALOGY. THIS
110 ANECDOTAL TECHNIQUE ONLY BREAKS DOWN WHEN THE SOURCES OF THE ANECDOTE
111 OR THE DETAILS OF IT ARE UNCERTAIN. NOTE THAT ANECDOTES DO NOT HAVE EVEN
112 HAVE TO BE TRUE, JUST ILLUSTRATIVE. ONE COMMUNICATES ONES EXPERIENCE, AND
113 THIS IS CALLED ANECDOTAL.(OR SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCE). IT IS TRUE
114 THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO ANALOGY AND LEARNING, BUT THIS IS A VERY
115 IMPORTANT ONE. YOU WILL PROBABLY AGREE THAT IT IS THE WAY ANECDOTAL 
116 MATERIAL IS USED THAT MAKES IT VALID OR INVALID
117 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
118 I LOVE Markham Middle School
119 
120 help
121 
122 lI
123 list
124 list
125 off
126   list
127 print
128 enter
129 help
130 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
131 DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE LINE WAS BUSY FOR THE TWO HOURS SINCE MY LAST 
132 VOLUME OF BUSHWA AND THE ABOVE THRASHING AROUND (FAILURE TO USE CONTROL-C)
133 IS THE ONLY ADDITION. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RATIO OF CONTRIBUTORS TO
134 LURKERS ON THIS SYSTEM HAS GOTTEN TO BE? 
135 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
136 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
137 
138 WHERE IS MARKHAM MIDDLE SCHOOL???????????
139 
140 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
141 /Z?Z/Z/z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z?Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/
142 TO EVERYONE :
143 LOOK ON DISK DRIVE B 
144 SUBJECT  "HP 3000'CC
145 /Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/ XENON /Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/
146 How do you get to drive B?        WGH
147 
148 
149 
150 HROTHGAR: I ASSURE YOU THAT WRITING OVER
151 YOUR MESSAGE WAS ENTIRELY ACCIDENTAL. I
152 ENJOY READING MESSAGES ON THIS SYSTEM,
153 AND I WILL ENDEAVOR TO KEEP MY FOOTPRINTS
154 OUT OF PLACES THEY DON'T BELONG SO OTHERS
155 CAN ENJOY IT, TOO.
156 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE)))))))))))))))))))
157 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
158 - Xenon, I think that's a great idea!! There is a teacher in  -
159 - our school who goes to the MCESD EVERY day. He gave me      -
160 - LEGAL access to the CIS system. I mentioned it to him and   -
161 - he said to keep reminding him to talk to the MCESD'ers      -
162 - it. Gimme a call.... let's discuss this!                    -
163 -                                                             -
164 -                                    TRON                     -
165 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
166 WGH : TYPE DB AT THE > PROMPT
167 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
168 XENON: WHO IS MCESD AND HOW COME THEY GOT $100,000 FOR A LEARNING MACHINE?
169 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
170 RELIGION---BEING BROUGHT UP AS A CATHOLIC DOES
171 NOT HELP IN THIS DISCUSSION. ALL THROUGH GRADE AND
172 HIGH SCHOOL THE IDEA OF THE SUPREME BEING IS
173 FORCE FED TO YOU.
174 
175 ACTUALLY IN HIGH SCHOOL THE FIRST THING THE PRIEST
176 TELLS YOU IS THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN "FED"
177 THE BIBLE, IT IS NOT REALLY THE FACTS. IT IS WHAT THEY
178 WOULD LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE.
179 IT DOESN'T HELP...ONLY LEAVES YOU WITH A FEELING THAT
180 THERE IS A BIG GUY.......
182 TYPE AND FORM UNKNOWN..>.
183 MR BILL
184 ++++++++++++++;++++++++)+++++++++++++++++
185 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
186 HROTHGAR, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT AND WRONG. ANECDOTE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AS 
187 ARGUMENT.  IT CAN BE USED IN SUPPORT OF AN ARGUMENT, BUT NOT AS THE   
188 ARGUMENT.  TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE CAN BE
189 USED TO SUPPORT THE GENERAL SITUATION.  YOU MAY HAVE KNOWN A LAZY
190 BLACK MAN, A DRUNKEN IRISHMAN, ETC., BUT THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT THAT 
191 BLACKS ARE LAZY, IRISH ARE DRUNKS, BUT  MERELY THAT YOU KNEW MEMBERS 
192 OF THOSE GROUPS THAT FIT THOSE LABELS.  AND I RESOLUTELY REJECT
193 INTUITION AS SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING. THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THROUGHOUT 
194 HISTORY THAT COULD USE INTUITION TO LEAD THEM ON TO NEW CONCEPTS AND  
195 IDEAS, BUT THEY ARE RARE.  THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE (MYSELF INCLUDED)   
196 USUALLY HAVE INTUITIVE SPARKS THAT ARE  BASED ON THEIR PERSONAL BIAS
197 AND ARE MOSTLY WRONG.    YOU ARE QUITE  CORRECT WHEN YOU SAY THAT
198 LOGIC BY ITSELF PROVES NOTHING.  AND YOU CAN SAY THAT CONSTRUCTION    
199 EQUIPMENT BY ITSELF BUILDS NOTHING. BOTH ARE MERELY TOOLS TO BE USED 
200 TO BUILD WITH, AND ARE POWERLESS ALONE.  YOU DON'T VIOLATE THESE 
201 SIMPLE RULES OF ARGUMENT YOURSELF. I'VE NEVER SEEN YOU LOWER YOURSELF 
202 TO AN AD HOMINEM LIKE OUR  "UNSIGNED"   FRIEND DID A FEW DISKS AGO.  
203 EVEN ARE MOST RECENT DISCUSSION OF GOD  EVENTUALLY CAME DOWN TO 
204 WHETHER ONE ACCEPTED THE APPEAL TO THE  AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE.  SO
205 IF YOU WISH TO ARGUE THAT THIS IS NOT   DEFINEABLE AS RULES OF LOGIC, 
206 I WILL ACCEPT YOUR POSITION (WHILE NOT  NECESSARILY AGREEING).  BUT
207 IF YOU FEEL THAT THE RULES OF LOGICAL   ARGUMENT ARE NOT VALID, THEN  
208 THERE CAN NEVER BE CONCLUSIONS ARRIVED  AT THAT MANY CAN AGREE WITH, 
209 SHORT OF THOSE THAT AGREE WITH WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL HAS AN EMOTIONAL
210 STAKE IN.  AND, WHILE I AGREE STATISTICS CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PROVE  
211 WHATEVER POSITION YOU TAKE, ANY PROPER  ANALYSIS OF STATISTICS THAT   
212 HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED THUS WILL SHOW    THAT THE PROPER PICTURE IS
213 BEING HIDDEN.  IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS 
214 EVALUATION, BUT IF THE SUBJECT IS OF ANY IMPORTANCE AT ALL, THERE
215 WILL BE SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE AND  WHO WILL TAKE THE STATISTICS  
216 APART TO SHOW THEY ARE WRONG.
217      ON A LIGHTER NOTE, HROTHGAR, THANKS FOR RESPONDING TO ME IN A 
218 MANNER NOT INSULTING OR DEROGATORY.  I  FIND THAT THERE ARE MANY THAT 
219 I AGREE WITH THAT ARE SO INSULTING  IN  THEIR RHETORIC THAT I EITHER  
220 REMAIN SILENT, OR FIND MYSELF TEMPTED TO ARGUE WITH THEM MERELY TO 
221 SEE THE PROVERBIAL  STEAM  COME OUT  OF THEIR EARS.  BUT YOUR 
222 RESPONSE WAS REASONED AND TEMPERED THAT IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO RESPOND 
223 IN SUPPORT OF MY OPINIONS.  MY 'ATS OFF TA YA, SPORT!!                 
224                                                                        
225 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
226 
227 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
228 
229 Mr. Bill:  Are you or have you recently been a Tektronix employee?
230 
231 Mikey:  I think we have all generalized a bit here and there.  For
232 example, I am sure there have been numerous Christians who have con-
233 tributed considerably to the welfare of mankind.  Likewise there have been
234 scientist who have developed instruments of our destruction.  When I
235 speak of a particular cross-section of society as a whole I attempt to
236 typify the characteristics of the majority of its members.  If I feel
237 there is no CLEAR majority I tend to avoid such generalization.  
238 I think you will have to agree that without scientific innovation, the
239 net result would be a far lower standard of living.  (We have already 
240 discussed the hazards of living in caves.  Who wants to go through life
241 covered with Chiropteran excrement?)
242 Although we now face potential extinction, I strongly feel we would 
243 have met this fate millennia ago had it not been for the advent of
244 Science.  I believe a stable society
245 depends on the balance in technological and socialogical advancements
246 in that society and our current instability is resultant from our
247 abandonment of sociological endeavors.
248 In contrast, although some religious organizations have made contributions
249 to the well-being of specific persons in specific areas (missionaries,
250 CCF, etc.) this has most often been
251 done with the alterior motive of recruiting new followers and, more
252 importantly the only lasting effects on society as a whole (that I am 
253 aware of) have been pernicious.
254 I have condemned religion, in general, on this basis; but I feel that
255 you have based your condemnation of the scientific community on a few 
256 exceptions to the rule.  Please see Pam's discussion above.
257 
258 Pam:  many good comments above regarding the use and misuse
259 of logic (as the construction tools) and statistics.  I might suggest 
260 furthering the analogy by relating statistics to the building materials.
261 Without the proper tools, materials and someone knowlegeable of carpentry,
262 the building is likely to crumble.
263 
264 Xenon:  Pardon my ignorance (also correct me) if I'm wrong, but isn't
265 MCESD = Multnomah County Educational Service District??  (or something 
266 like that) Aren't they tax supported?  Such an installation would be very
267 taxing!  Also, just to satisfy my curiousity, why did you select an
268 HP3000?  As long as we're spending money, I would prefer a Cray-II.
269 I too would like to have local access to a mainframe system (besides Tek
270 & PSU) but I suspect that the reason it has not already been done is that
271 it is cost prohibitive.
272 
273 Whomever:  I suspect that besides causation there is another significant
274 reason for the correlation between religion and militarism.  It seems
275 that some models of the Human CPU are supplied with varying amounts of
276 RAM and EAROM.  While some may require some special signals or stimuli
277 (such as evidence) for reprogramming, others are easily programmed and
278 reprogrammed by church, state or any other body which, to them, repre-
279 sents authority.
280 
281                                                        Dirty Ol' Man
282 
283 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
284 
285 Pam, although are correct in requesting logiic, as far as it goes, but we
286 have more to do here than prove something right or wrong, we attemp to
287 convey information or convince. ((My, do I have a bad connectio!!!))
288 It aids in understanding to have anecdotes !n analogies. we humans (am I
289 including too much) are not very logical, in the traditional silogisn
290 sense, relying on such as majority logic and gut feeling. Intuition is more
291 a name for "I don't know why, but"; I suspect if we look deeper we will find
292 it no different from any other thinking.
293 The accusations against religion are unfounded, apparently as no reasons
294 ar1 given. When reasons are given, I am reminded of the claims of semi-
295 literate neo-freudians who say "all human actions are driven by sex." By
296 the time theyhave told you how this is so, they have defined sex to mean
297 'everything that causes human action'. But this isn't what I mean when I
298 say sex, or when you think sex, so it means nothing.
299 The Bible doesn'tc claim to be easily understandable, perhaps it is better
300 vagues, as it can then apply to situations not expect%d by the writers.
301 ///////////_//////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
302 Pam, what kind of terminal or program do you user that creates that line
303 down the middle of the screen??
304 ///////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
305 *********************************************************************
306 DOM: JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THAT THE SCIENTISTS HANDS WERE NOT SPIC AND
307 SPAN CLEAN EITHER...
308 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 28 SEPT 83 ********* 8:20AM **************
309 To: DOM (or whoever)  I must point out that "appealing to authority"
310 in an argument is done more often than is realized. I must also
311 point out that it is sometimes "neccessary". Taken strictly, one
312 would have to PERSONALLY check EVERYTHING otherwise you are "appealing
313 to the authority" who told you! This is obviously impossible (well
314 - impractical anyway!). The main example in recent arguments was
315 calling d's excerpts from the bible "appealing to authority" (I'm
316 going to abbreviate that as "a.t.a" for the rest of this msg!)
317 Since the subject being discussed was the beliefs of Christians
318 & Christian doctrine etc., calling this "a.t.a" is like calling
319 a quote from a physics text "a.t.a"! Quoting from the bible
320 qualifies as "a.t.a" ONLY when you are attempting to prove a
321 point NOT involving religion! 
322 	By the way isn't a phyics experiment "a.t.a", with the
323 UNIVERSE as the "authority"? Think about it!
324 	Also, I beleive we had a circular argument on the last 
325 disk. To wit: You can't prove the existence of God because there
326 is no evidence!       I mean REALLY now! That has to be the silliest
327 excuse for an argument that I have heard in at least a MONTH. All
328 that lack of evidence "proves" is that there isn't any evidence.
329 I know we aren't trying for "formal" proofs here, but anyone who 
330 can't see that lack of evidence doesn't prove things had better
331 stay out of our discussions.
332 
333 And now for something completely different......
334 I am looking for a "telephone device" (hereinafter referred to as a "box").
335 This box must have 1 modular jack of the type used for wall-to-phone
336 connections & 1 jack of the type used for connecting the
337 handset. It must have a switch of some sort to for on-hook/off-hook.
338 Ring indication is optional (nice, but I can do without).
339 Dialing capability is optional (if present, must be touchtone)
340 Box should be as small as possible (target: cigarette pack size)
341 Kit or plans acceptable. FCC certification optional.
342 In case you are wondering, this is for use between a "headset"
343 intended to replace a normal handset & a TRS-80 Model 100. The
344 Model 100 has PULSE dialing capability thru a built-in direct
345 connect modem & will function as an auto-dialer WITH or WITHOUT
346 use of the modem! I think it's kind of silly to have a "handset"
347 the size of a set of Walkman(R)(or TM or whatever) headphones, a
348 computer/terminal/autodialer the size of a SMALL hardback & then
349 be stuck with a phone that is "bulkier" than BOTH.
350 PLEASE make suggestions, offer help etc!
351 _____________________________Leonard___________________________
352 TO: ALL
353 FROM: LINDA
354 
355 PERSONALIZED BOOKEEPING SERVICE AVAILABLE.  I SPECIALIZE IN
356 SMALL BUSINESS BOOKEEPING/FINANCIAL REPORTING.  COMPLETE--
357 INFORMATIVE--FEES NEGOTIABLE.
358 
359                                  CALL 661-xxxx
360 
361 ---------------------------------
362 Idea for a product:  I often find myself simultaneously wanting to use my 
363 computer and TV.  That is, I want to watch a TV program, and do some editing
364 or something.  And I'm not too bothered if the program isn't all that clean.
365 Light bulb flashes!  Mix the computer and TV signal, so that you can see both.
366 At a moment's notice, you can control the mix such that you can eliminate one
367 or the other signal.  So during the boring commercials you can zap them, or
368 stop the computer signal during chase scenes.  
369 **************************************************** P. V. Jeltz
370 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
371   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   19:30   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
372      DOM, I meant that such evidence takes time to gather, and my time
373 is severely limited right now--for instance, I should be trussing up
374 my belongings tonight, for a change in residence is coinciding with
375 this conversation--but I wanted to leave the promise that I am not
376 abandoning the Backwater!  Comparing the quest for proof of a creator
377 to searching for a dime in one's pocket is quite the oversimplication
378 of an issue, DOM.  In roughly a week, I'll buy out time from sleep
379 to come back and present a side of the debate regarding god/the Bible
380 that is not well represented on the Backwater.
381      A comment was made regarding the authenticity of the Bible's
382 authorship earlier, as follows:  "There is not a shred of evidence
383 that would stand up in a properly conducted court of reason."  It
384 brought to mind a quote from a certain Salmon P. Chase, former chief
385 justice of the US Supreme Court, who questioned the Bible, as well.
386 He decided to examine it as he would examine any matter in court,
387 taking evidence for it and against it.  What was the result?  I quote:
388 "It was a long, serious, and profound study:  and using the same
389 principles of evidence in this religious matter as I always do in
390 secular matters, I have come to the decision that the Bible is a
391 supernatural book, that it has come from God."  But I don't feel
392 that one quote should convice a person yea or nay; rather, I feel
393 that each person should embark on their own investigation.  How
394 does the Bible measure up to history and science when it touches
395 on these?  How well--and why--has it been preserved through the
396 centuries?  What evidence of prophetic fullfillment has there been?
397 What makes it different from other religious writings?  Finally,
398 does it have true internal harmony, which would be evidence of one
399 author?  All of these are questions I myself have queried on, and
400 subsequently found satisfying answers--i.e., solid evidence and
401 clear reasoning to support the response.  So...next week!
402      Aaron, my sister was quite taken by your greeting, and she
403 relayed this via slow, scratching pen, as follows:
404 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * |
405 To: Aaron   From: Lori
406 Yes, I am well.  Your graciousness moves me for I felt that I
407 was "a mist appearing for a short while and then disappearing."
408 West Seattle High West School is where I graduated from.
409 Farewell, sweet friend!
410 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * |
411      Aaiee, the time!  I meant to stay but a few minutes at the Inn,
412 and still yet I tarry, trying to compose a small ode of appreciation
413 to Leonard, for his thought-provokers...but alas, I cannot.
414 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     d     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
415    I have never been very impressed by religionists, mainly because the ones
416 I've met tend to be single-minded airheads.  I'm not talking, by the way, about the run-of-the-mill, man-on-the street
417 believer, of course.  The difference is clear:  I have known some people for a number of years, and for most of them
418 I never learned what religion they practiced.  But there are some people whose very language is filled with religious
419 keywords, and anyone can tell in five minutes or less that they have religion on the brain.
420    Most people do not feel the need to raise the question of religion in ordinary conversation, and they do not. 
421 While the example of the airport-type-Moonies may be a bit exaggerated, this type of devotion is not unusual.
422    You could mistake my previous example as an incidence of guilt-by-association argument, but it is not.  Most
423 churchgoers seem to be reasonably well adjusted people, who can control themselves. 
424 
425    Excess in anything should be criticized, but organized religions seem to be so happy to get such devoted people that
426 they conveniently ignore their seemingly mindedless devotion and exasperating peristence.  To be perfectly honest,
427 evangelicals tend to be detested by mainstream religion, but only because the evangelicals seem to imply that since they
428 pray harder, they are better people.
429 
430 	Let's hear some comments.  Have you ever met a person who seems to have religion on the brain, who cannot speak
431 for five minutes without using the words 'bless' or 'pray' etc,.  If you have, you will know it.  If you haven't, count
432 yourself lucky.
433 )()()()()()()()()()()()()()()))))()()()()()()()()()()()()()()Anon()()()()()()()()()(
434 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
435 OUTSIDE, BESIDE MY DOOR IS A SIGN THAT SIMPLY STATES "NO SOLICITING". YOU WOULD THINK THAT ANY ONE WHO IS ABLE TO READ 
436 THE BIBLE COULD READ AND UBDERSTAND THAT SIMPLE PHRASE. BUT NO SUCH LUCK! ALMOST WEEKLY THERE IS SOME, BIBLE IN HAND, IDIOT 
437 TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO HIS/HER WAY OF THOUGHT. THEN THERE IS ALSO MY MAILBOX THAT GETS ABUSED BY THESE SAME IDIOTS. 
438 IT ALREADY COST ME A BUNDLE FOR GARBAGE REMOVAL BUT I STILL HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE THIS JUNK CARRIED AWAY, I DON'T HAVE A 
439 FIREPLACE OR WOOD STOVE TO BURN IT IN, PERHAPS IF I DID I MIGHT WELCOME THE FLYERS AND TRACTS THAT FIND THERE WAY TO ME. AFTER
440 ALL AT LEAST THEY COULD BE PUT TO USE BY KEEPING ME WARM. SINCE, HOWEVER THEY CAN'T, I DO WISH THE DO-GOODERS OF THIS WORLD 
441 WOULD LEARN TO READ AND SAVE THEIR POSTAGE.
442 THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH:
443 
444 ++++++++++++++P.O.ED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
445 Wow!  This is a wWEIRD BBS.  I've been a computer hobbyist for about 8
446 years, but I just got my firstmodem yesterday (A Novation J-Cat:
447 Auto Dial/Answer for $115 -- I highly recommend it) and so I've been
448 just kind of dialing around examining the BBS'Ss of Portland.  Is there
449 a way, may I ask, to sort the religious discussion from the rest of the
450 file.  ?  Or is that the whole point of the bulletin board?  I sure am
451 impressed, though, that someone has been generous enough to devote the
452 resources for an undertaking of this magnitude.  Anyone else out there
453 own a IBM-PC?
455 				Bart Massey (bart @ REED)
456 
457 
458 ----------------------------------------------------
459 
460 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
461 
462 Mikey:  No contest.
463 
464 d:  I will be patiently awaiting your evidence.
465 
466 Bart:  I believe the adjective I used the first time on BWMS was also "wierd".
467 Now that I am a participant I prefer the word "unique".  BWMS may not be
468 terribly practical, but as an amusement it more than suffices.
469 There is no ability to sort on BWMS (at least if there is, it is kept
470 secret).  I'm not sure if you wanted to locate or to avoid religious dis-
471 cussions.  You can find specific keywords by typing NU Y on one line
472 following the > prompt (which causes line numbers to be displayed) then
473 typing on next line FA keyword .
474 So for example, if you wanted to find religious discussions, you might type:
475 
476 >NU Y
477 >FA God
478 
479 then the system would return all lines including "God" as follows:
480 
481 201-BLAH..BLAH..BLAH..God..BLAH.....
482 232-God..BLAH..BLAH............
483 
484 To begin printing everything after line 201, type:
485 
486 LN 201
487 NU N
488 PRINT
489 
490 Wierdness has its place.  Try it.
491 
492 Leonard:  You are absolutely right!
493           (Caught you of guard , didn't I?)
494 I am refferring to your statement that it is often necessary and/or beneficial
495 to consult authorities.  I have never contested this; I only meant to suggest
496 that 1) Some people apply logic to relate the new information with that
497 which they have already assimilated in order to ascertain whether or not that
498 source of info is indeed a valid authority on the particular subject,
499 while others blindly accept the new information, assuming that the authority
500 is valid because it proclaimed itself so and that authorities are incapable
501 of error or deception.
502 2) Some fail to discern whether the subject is appropriate to the particular
503 authority.  For example, it would be inappropriate to consult an anatomy
504 book for information on Japanese constitutional law.  Yet you are 
505 consulting a collection of history books, novels and diaries for in-
506 formation regarding cosmography.
507 The subject of discussion was not Christian doctrine; it was the validity 
508 of that doctrine.  A physics experiment is an observation of reality,
509 not of someones concept of reality; also "authority" implies intellegence
510 which when imputed to the universe, presupposes the existence of a deity,
511 which is the very point we are disputing.  Who was it that spoke of
512 circular arguments??????
513 Surely you can see that stating "The exstence of God cannot be proven
514 because there is no evidence!" in no way whatsoever implies that something
515 CAN be proven by the lack of evidence.
516 It was sufficient to inform me that you
517 lack proficiency in proofs (and elementary logic); I did not require
518 a demonstration!
519 Let's avoid any further blatent disregard for the rules of logic!
520 
521                                                      Dirty Ol' Man
522 
523 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
524 
525 PS to all ergonomics enthusiasts:
526    In case you're interested, PSU will be offering class on above subject
527 next (winter) term.  Perception is a recommended prerequisite (and is 
528 offerred this term), but I don't think it is required.  These courses are
529 offerred by psychology dept.
530 
531                                                        Dirty
532 
533 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
534 
535 As to the question about logic vs learning, comments in the scientific 
536 circles debating the w!y humans learn circle around the same process 
537 we called scientific method: see a phenomenon, propose a theory about why
538 it happened and test the theory. Bad logic may lead to a theory, in fact
539 it is proposed creativity is only ramdomness. Then test it against other
540 observations. The truth is whatever doesn't conflict. we all carry out
541 this invent and test procedure apparantly. However, the idea of inventing
542 wrong theories is critcised by some as impeding teaching. Somehow I don't
543 think we will ever all agree on one right way, since I suspect there is 
544 more than one way.
545 ////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
546 DOM: sorry, I do see what you mean. What I should have said was
547 that lack of evidence is NOT the same as unprovability. The 
548 person in question also missed the rather subtle distinction 
549 between "can be proven" & "may be proven".
550 	As I said, I'm out of practice (about 10 years worth of
551 out of practice!).
552 To: Whom it may concern (sorry)   There is a "good" reason for
553 giving religions tax-exempt status. Loosely stated, "the power
554 to tax is the power to control". Or, if the IRS doesn't like
555 your church -- BOY ARE YOU GONNA GET IT!  
556 	Note however, that I feel that in many cases this 
557 privilege is being abused. Somehow, I find it hard to justify
558 a tax-exempt status for an apartment complex run by the church.
559 But as long as they aren't GETTING money from the government,
560 I can live with it. Once you start trying to say this should be
561 exempt & this shouldn't, you're right back where we started.
562 
563 To: d
564 	Thank you, I am using a method practiced by the late
565 John W. Campbell. One of his favorite pastimes was getting you
566 to express a definite stand on a subject (it didn't matter 
567 what the stand WAS). He would then do his best to come up with
568 a "logical, reasonable, etc" argument for the exact opposite!
569 The results (see most of his editorials) were (to quote Mr. 
570 Spock) "Fascinating". The main purpose was to FORCE you to 
571 THINK. 
572 	Most people seem to think that if you have heard "both
573 sides" in an argument, that you have all the info. People also
574 think that one of the sides must be "right" (after all, right
575 & wrong are the only choices aren't they?). The only exception
576 to this "two-valued" "logic" is the saying: Two wrongs don't
577 make a right. Unfortunately, most of us seem to operate on the
578 exact opposite. I trust everyone can see why I mention this,
579 consider several recent topics of debate (to say nothing of the
580 current topic). If not, I MAY attempt to explain.
581 _________________________Leonard_______________________________
582 
583 
584 
585 
586 HARI KRISHNA, HARI KRIAISHNA, HARI KRISHNA, HARI............ETC
587 
588 Actually, the right NOT to be taxed is also the power to control.  Those that
589 aren't taxed but still can use tax-supported services (sewers, fire and
590 police protection, etc.) can gain power out of all proportion to their numbers
591 or riches.  If you find that hard to believe, check the Washington County board
592 of records to find out who is the largest single landowner in the county.
593 You'll find out that it's the Catholic church, and that the average
594 individual taxpayer pays more taxes than the entire church organization does.
595 Perhaps they shouldn't be taxed, but something must be done to divert the power
596 that can be gained by tax-exempt status.
597 \\\\\\\\\\\Barf the Barbarian///////////
598  
599 *****************j***************************************************
600 On Friday and Saturday (Sept 30 and Oct 1) C&L Terminals will be
601 having a garage sale from 9 AM until 3 PM each day.
602   Items include used computer terminals and modems as well as
603 used office furniture.
604     The address is SE Ivon   (1 block south of Division on 12th)
605         Phone: 231-xxxx
606  
607 *****.***********************************.********j*****j*.:*********
608 ****
609 ****
610 ****
611 ****
612 ****
613 ****
614 ****
615 ****
616 ****
617 ****
618 ****
619 ****
620 ****
621 ****
622 ****
623 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
624 HEY MIKEY - I BET IF I GO AWAY FOR A HALF HOUR YOU'LL CHANGE THE DISK
625 READY TO PURSUE THESE CONVERGING DEBATES AT LENGTH AFTER THAT. NEED SPACE
626 TO SHOOT OFF MOUTH
627 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE TAOIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
628  T.G. AND E.D 				WAS HERE
629 KEEP ON TRUCKIN

