From: DEATH FENNEC        
To: ALL                 
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/06/91 23:29:23
Message Number 16601

     There is a problem that \i would like everyone to try to answer for
me.  I am going to be leaving for California ina  couple of weeks, but I
am not all that sure that 	I want to go.  I love Lisa, and I am afraid I
will losa her.  She will be here, and I will be in California.  I don't 
have the slightest idea what 	I can do.  I want to get out of this damn
state, and into California, BUT, I do not want to leave Lisa here.  I 
had said that I loved her, and I do, but I really want to get outa this
state.  Anyways, can someone help me out here, before I make the wrong 
decision?  Please?
 
 
       /| Death Fennec -- Artist ;>
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Hey!           
Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:08:13
Message Number 16603

>No prob.
Thanks.
 
Yes, I'd like to know the origin of your 
 
Mine's kinda interesting too. Wanna hear it?
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
 
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:12:18
Message Number 16604

What defines God as any gender?
 
Well, look in the bible. There's /tons/ of references. *]:)
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: ALL                 
Subject: Dinosaurs      
Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:18:16
Message Number 16605

Has anyone seen Dinosaurs, a new TV show? If so, waddaya think of it.
 
It's a cross between The simpsons, the flintstones, and the Honeymooners
.
 
I, for one, like it a lot.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:27:05
Message Number 16607

CD> She? What defines God as any gender? Sex organs??
    
   Well, I thought it would be disrespectful for me to call God "The
Divine It," so I used the gender-neutral "She."
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:30:06
Message Number 16608

   I doubt that.  Religious discussions can be logical and intelligent.
Not everyone will agree with the conclusions, that's all.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Birth Control  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:31:14
Message Number 16609

   Okay. I'll grant the "spiritually enlightening" part of Tantric
Yoga.  But, from what little I know of the subject, it's not supposed
to be sexually stimulating for the man.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:34:05
Message Number 16610

CD> If we were to free ourselves from limiting beliefs...
    
...we wouldn't believe anything, and would get ourselves killed at the
next traffic light.  All beliefs are limiting in some sense; let's free
ourselves from USELESS beliefs, not "limiting" ones.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: ALL                 
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:38:29
Message Number 16611

   Just curious: Do y'all have anything to say about George Bush's
heart problem last weekend?  And should the nation be preparing itself
for President Quayle?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:48:10
Message Number 16612

DF>She who has "loved" the most is useless to your definition of love.
DF>One can give away all the love you "have" -- and still find more love
DF>to give.
 
Not one who has "loved" the most is useless -- but one who loves too
many people in the certain manner of which I refer to is useless...
And yes, you can give away all the love you "have" and still find more
love to give, **PROVIDED** that you are loved in return.  If you recieve
no love in return, then yes, your love will wither away.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:53:01
Message Number 16613

CD>She?  What defines God...?
 
Oh, shit...you hadda ask *him*.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: GOD's sense of 
Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:54:30
Message Number 16614

CD>bird that comes in for a landing...
 
Gooney bird.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Hey!           
Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:56:27
Message Number 16615

Ok...about 5 years ago, I was in the Army...and I owned an Apple //e.
(Actually, I owned two...a Korean manufactured clone called a Banana --
no kidding.)  Well, I was the only one over there with a genuine //e.
(A rarity overseas.)  And I was also the only one who knew the damn
things inside and out (including a smattering of machine language and
techniques) and I was literally the expert on Apples for all of Yongsan
Compound (the equivalent of an Army post).  I was cracking software 
left and right...but I needed a handle.  Well, my rank at the time was
Specialist E-4, and I was a specialist at Apples, so I took the handle
The Specialist...and I left my handle on all the software I broke...
CRACKED BY THE SPECIALIST.  As a matter of fact, if you went to Korea,
you might find some of my work.  The reason my stuff caught on so well
was because at the time, Apple was switching DOS's.  They provided a 
utility with ProDOS to convert DOS 3.3 to ProDOS, but almost none of
the games would work with it.  (ProDOS, by the way, was far, FAR 
superior to DOS 3.3; a game to load under 3.3 would load in half to 
quarter of the time under ProDOS.)   So, there was a demand for games
converted to ProDOS, and I filled it.  And my stuff caught on, and 
people were bringing stuff to me for conversion to PD.  Games esp.
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:31:46
Message Number 16616

...for President Quayle?
  
There's not enough room in Canada for us to "prepare" ourselves for
him......sssssssssssssssssssssNICKER  .   .
  
sssssssssssssSnakeByte .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:34:01
Message Number 16617

>>gender-neutral "She."
 
In most languages the gender nuetral is masculine (probably explaining
the Him rather then Her reference majority). I'm not saying that God
should be referred to with one or the other...just with respect either
way, if you 'believe'<-----talk about a generalization!!!!...sorry
  
SnakeByte .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Dinosaurs      
Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:37:48
Message Number 16618

Dinosaurs..... Yeah! Good plot, nice story, good insinuations (ie- "when
we decided to NOT eat our young..."hehe), great costume work (Jim Henson
would be impressed)....more of a rubberized Honeymooners then anything
else. It is decent television..........ARGH!!!! Did I say that?!?!?!?!
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:40:42
Message Number 16619

>>look in the Bible. There's /tons/ of references.
 
Look in the history books at how many people thought Joan of Arc was
a man. She did it because she knew people wouldn't follow her if they
thought otherwise......think about it. 
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:43:16
Message Number 16620

>>>limiting beliefs.....(???)
 
Like the 'limiting belief' that if I lay in the fast lane of
I-75 at 2am in black clothes that I might get a boo-boo???
 
>>love who we love...
  
I always thought you're supposed to love yourself before you could
love others....sounds rather boring.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Morality.      
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:18:14
Message Number 16622

>Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
 
Yeah. Too bad it's inadequate. I still maintain that "As it harms none,
do as thou wilt" is more sophisticated and more generally useful as
a moral code. There are too many things the Golden Rule doesn't cover
that are still immoral.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Whoops...      
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:19:45
Message Number 16623

T>Unless you count George Will.
TS>Isn't he that asshole editorialist?
 
Yeah. He's also a raving fanatic about the English language. IMHO, the
man is a loon.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Love and Posets
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:22:38
Message Number 16624

>A poset is a partially ordered set...set theory...set attributes...
>etc...etc...etc...
 
Damn, I thought I was excessive when I started applying chaos theory to
interpersonal relationships. You know, you could have stated the same
thing much more easily if you'd tried.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Buscaglia      
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:25:01
Message Number 16625

>...probably much as I like a Bugs Bunny cartoon now and then (but not
>too often!!)
 
Hey! Don't go knocking Bugs, now...good little furries know that Tex
Avery is God. Given the choice, I'd much rather spend the afternoon
watching old Bugs Bunny reruns than, say, dining with Mr. Buscaglia...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:27:05
Message Number 16626

>         ...and rarely become constipated!
 
[LOL] You have no sense of reverence at all, do you? Heh heh.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:28:37
Message Number 16627

>....President Q--yle?
 
Hey, don't EVEN use that phrase in my vicinity! I get the shakes
whenever I think about addressing Danny as "Mr. President"...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:30:12
Message Number 16628

>If you recieve no love in return, then yes, your love will wither away.
 
Agreed...but what does that have to do with the ability to love more
than one person at a time? It is also possible to /be/ loved by more
than one person at a time.
 
While I see, and agree with, your point that if you start loving
everyone around you, or if you love easily, that love doesn't mean very
much, that /doesn't/ mean that you must therefore love only /one/ person
for the love to have meaning, it means your love should be an uncommon
commodity. To extend your own plutonium-vs-dirt metaphor, if you got
/two/ handfuls of plutonium that don't suddenly make it as worthless as
dirt...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:35:15
Message Number 16629

>There's not enough room in Canada for us to "prepare" ourselves...
 
[LOL] That has got to be one of the funniest things in living memory.
 
Like, welcome back, dude! You should drop in more often.
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Hey!           
Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:22:50
Message Number 16633

Hmmm.... Quite an interesting origin of handle...
 
Here's my story...
My original handle was Night Owl, simply because I love the nighttime.
I sometimes stay up 'til 5 or 6am, though the average crash-time is 
around 3:30 or so).
 
Well, I have come out of many periods of hardship, poverty, and anything
else life can throw at me. Since it took strength to survive these times
and  didn't wanna change my handle too much, I thought of Knight Owl.
 
'What is a Knight Owl? you ask? Well, it's something that stays up at 
weird hours and can pretty much survive anything.
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
 
PS
Have you read HACKERS?
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:31:38
Message Number 16634

S> .... Joan of Arc.......
 
Touche'
I see what you mean...
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: ALL                 
Subject: *--*           
Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:36:49
Message Number 16635

Did you hear that Bo Jackson signed a new contract?
He's gonna be the batting coach for the LAPD.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:03:07
Message Number 16636

CD> She?  What defines God...?
TS> Oh, shit...you hadda ask *him*.
    
   Come on, now.  You didn't REALLY expect a Cantinflas-type answer
to that one, now did you?
                        //Dragonfly//
    
   Well... okay. Maybe I should have rambled.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:05:55
Message Number 16637

  Canada?  Personally, I'd try to flee as far as possible from the
U.S.  I mean, I can imagine "Ohh... now what does this red button do?"
     
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:07:24
Message Number 16638

>...just with respect either way, if you 'believe.'
     
   I certainly DO 'believe.'  Born-again (well, three-times born)
Christian.  As well as being the False Prophet of the Aardvark.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Morality.      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:09:31
Message Number 16639

> Yeah.  Too bad it's inadequate.  I still maintain that "As it harms
> none, do as thou wilt" is more sophisticated and more generally
> useful as a moral code.  There are too many things the Golden Rule
> doesn't cover that are still immoral.
     
   Actually, I was thinking over "four levels" of morality:
    
   Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
   Wicca: "As it harms none, do as thou wilt."
   Buddhism: "Do not do unto others what don't want them to do unto you"
   Judaism: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
    
   (I consider Wicca and Buddhism approximately the same moral law,
one stated positively; one negatively.) 
   I'm not sure what "sophisticated" would mean, for a moral code.
If you mean "knowing" or "worldly-wise," I would disagree.  (Of course,
this depends on how one defines to "harm another."  For example, eating
beef in India would "harm" no other person, so would be allowable under
Wicca -- but would not be "worldly-wise.")  If you mean "intellectually
appealing," I can't argue in manners of taste.
    
   Again, I'm not sure how you'd define "useful" for a moral code.  Any
action allowed (nay, required) by the Jewish law would be allowed by
Wicca -- but not vice-versa.  Therefore, if your definition of "useful"
were based on freedom to choose, it would be more "useful."  If you were
to refer to how people think of your moral character, the Jewish one
would probably make people think more highly of you.
    
   I'm kind of surprised at your phrase "There are too many things the
Golden Rule doesn't cover that are immoral."  The biggest difference
between the Wicca rule and the Jewish one is permission versus
requirement.  I believe that if the Jewish moral code does not cover
a certain immoral act, then neither would the Wicca one.
     
   Any comments from y'all?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Whoops...      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:32:33
Message Number 16640

BTW, what's IMHO?
         //DF//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Love and Posets
Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:33:09
Message Number 16641

Yes, but I didn't try.
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Say how?       
Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:01:38
Message Number 16642

TS> And they haven't proven CONCLUSIVELY that AIDS cannot be transmitted
TS> via SALIVA. 
  
DFy> Do you have any medical documentation backing you your position? 
  
That's a pretty silly question, do ya think? 
If there were medical documentation the back up EITHER position, we'd 
know for sure now wouldn't we.
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Say how?       
Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:06:43
Message Number 16643

T> But isn't jealousy mediated by the lizard brain?? Ironic, yesno? 
  
Grrrrrrr.......
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: DINK? Me??     
Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:30:48
Message Number 16644

SA> heheheee. Get him a nice T-Bone...
 
I was thinking more on the lines of a rump-roast myself.  (snicker)
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:32:26
Message Number 16645

SA> how else could I go without so easily in situations like home but 
SA. not work. 
  
Simple.  Less stress at home, or, at least, stress that you can deal 
with with less difficulty. 
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: DINK? Me??     
Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:41:33
Message Number 16646

SS> But the next time you get lonely, I'll buy you a steak to cuddle 
SS> up with. 
  
TS> just make sure you warm it up first. 
  
I could use body-butter to warm it.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Morality.      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 19:51:26
Message Number 16647

DF>[Moral preaching]
 
Well, let's take this one step at a time. Of the four moral codes you
mentioned, the Wiccan "As it harms none, do as thou wilt" and the
Buddhist "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto
you" are /not/ the same. The difference is fairly subtle, but I'd still
expect someone who spends as much time as you do contemplating this sort
of nonsense to grasp it. All the other codes (except Crowley's, which is
hardly a "moral code") govern /specifically/ the way you behave toward
other people. They make no mention of any action and do not pretend to
cover any action that does not directly impact on other people. The
Wiccan code does. Also, the other codes (this is the subtle distinction)
prohibit /doing things TO other people/ which you would not have done
unto you. The Wiccan code prohibits doing /anything/ which harms others.
Even incidentally; even indirectly. While the others can /by extension/
be considered to prohibit those actions which might harm people
incidentally, they do not /specifically/ prohibit those actions; they
only tell you not to do something which you wouldn't like someone else
to do to you. If you do something which doesn't involve others directly
and hurts others only incidentally, you are not "doing unto" others what
you wouldn't want done unto you. There are many people in this country
who consider themselves good, upstanding Christians, who in their
conduct to others obey the Golden Rule, who still dump CFC's into the
air, bury toxic waste, etc. The Wiccan rule /specifically/ forbids these
actions.
 
By "more sophisticated" I meant "more complex; more subtle and well-
developed". That should not have been that difficult to figure out...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Whoops...      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 19:59:42
Message Number 16648

>BTW, what's IMHO?
 
In My Humble Opinion.
===========

From: SHANDRA             
To: OPUS                
Subject: My Move..      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 20:56:28
Message Number 16649

I look over at the insane little 'morph as he walks by. "Oh, no you
don't," I say, as I run quickly after him and drag him back into the
bar. "There's no town out there. In fact, there's nothing else on this
island. You planning to swim somewhere?" He doesn't really seem to
notice; in fact, he barely seems aware of what's going on around him.
"Dammit, this is too weird." I sigh and sit the confused little morph
in the nearest seat, watching for his injured behind as I do so. "You,"
I say, "stay out of trouble! I don't like babysitting." Returning my
attention to more important matters, I say to Tampa, "You remember that
little problem we had a few years back, when Ice Boy sent some of his
people over to try to move in on the Den? I think it might be a good
idea to go into the storage shed and uncrate some of the firepower they
were packing. It's probably unnecessary, but I've got this feeling, like
we might be needing it soon."
===========

From: ROBERT              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: Hey, dude...   
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:05:08
Message Number 16650

...you need to post in the Hidden Room soon, you know??
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:15:27
Message Number 16651

Drf>... the next thing you should have done is said something like, 
        "I've laid out my feelings. What are you really feeling?" 
 
We talked.... I told him how I felt, He told me how he felt.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Birth Control  
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:17:06
Message Number 16652

Tantric Yoga sounds like a bummer for the guy....... and also sounds 
like a lot of work... besides, I don't know too many men who could 
concentrate that hard on anything but the sex.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:18:24
Message Number 16653

Hey, when ya got a new peice of furniture, ya gotta let go and talk 
about it.... sometimes a new peice of furniture can make you feel a 
whole lot better about the whole house... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:19:47
Message Number 16654

I did. I talked, I screamed, I cried.... I couldn't stop crying.... 
I talked some more, I cried some more.... now I'm just numb.... but he 
has really been trying to understand and to make things better.... I 
just wish this numbness would go away..... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:27:24
Message Number 16655

Are you running a home for wayward picks???? Geez, you even end up with
all the homeless yo yo's in the universe. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:28:42
Message Number 16656

Yeah, yeah, I know there are some wrongs that are definately wrong no 
matter how you look at it... what I meant to say, is that there are 
always two sides to every issue.... and if you can see both sides.. you 
have a better picture.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:37:33
Message Number 16657

Thanks for the encouragement on my cutting down on smoking.  I can say 
that I'm still doing pretty well, I am down to about a half a pack a 
day on the average.....   
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:38:43
Message Number 16658

CD>What I get is that religious discussions, by the very nature, cannot
   be "intelligent", or "logical"..... 
 
There's too many theories and different beliefs out there.... and not 
enough iron clad fact... everything falls back to faith.... 
 I just don't have enough facts or knowledge of different religions to 
speak of it...... and I absolutely hate being 'preached' to.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: GOD's sense of 
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:41:59
Message Number 16659

CD> What's that bird that comes in for a landing and flops like a whale?
 
I dunno, but God must have been in an especially good mood when he made 
those lizards who stand on the hind legs and run.... I die laughing 
whenever I see that on TV 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:44:28
Message Number 16660

CD>..if each of us were able to free ourselves from limiting beliefs, 
     we could let ourselves be who we more deeply are..... 
 
Amen!!!!! But society simply won't allow that.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:45:58
Message Number 16661

Why are you going to California? Is there something there for you? 
Perhaps if it is only for a short while, you can take that time to 
evaluate your feelings for Lisa.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:48:18
Message Number 16662

President Quayle? Now there's a nightmare waiting to happen... or so I 
understand from all the news..... he seems to frighten the media. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: DINK? Me??     
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:54:41
Message Number 16663

SS>I was thinking more on the lines of a rump-roast myself. (snicker) 
 
Urg..... Once upon a time, that was actually my nickname.... Rump roast.
Long story, stupid ending.... never mind.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:56:11
Message Number 16664

Yes, but is nicotine addiction actually related to stress... or is it 
just the oral fixation of smoking that makes us want a cigarette when 
there is more stress... ??? 
I actually smoke less when I am depressed.... more if i am busy, like 
talking or typing.... or on the phone. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SHANDRA             
Subject: Tama           
Date & Time: 05/08/91 22:00:54
Message Number 16665

Tampa eyed Shandra a moment, considering her suggestion. "Yes, I think 
you're right." She snapped her fingers at Jarvis, knowing that he 
hated when she did that. 
Reluctantly, Jarvis set down the tumbler he was shaking and stepped out 
from behind the bar. "Yes?" His voice was lined with irritation.
"I want you to have some of the boys go over and bring those crates of 
firearms over here." Seeing the shadow cross Jarvis's face, Tampa 
lowered her voice another notch. "The less said the better, but I think 
we may have some problems... better safe than sorry." 
"But.." Jarvis started to complain. 
"Just do it." Tampa cut him off and turned away without waiting for his 
reply. 'Damn, I wish Korelyan was here.' she thought to herself as she 
scanned her eyes over a pair of newcomers entering the bar. Anyone here 
could be dangerous.... with so many strangers coming and going.. even
with Louis checking them at the door, all it would take was one well 
placed explosive device..
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: ALL                 
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/08/91 23:46:06
Message Number 16666

ThFig Newton was 100 years old today.
(just something to add to your collection of useless trivia...)
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: Say how?       
Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:06:32
Message Number 16668

>That's a pretty silly question, do ya think?
>If there were medical documentation the back up EITHER position, we'd
>know for sure now wouldn't we.
    
   No, I don't think it's a silly question, and I still don't.  There's
a lot we can do on this board, mulling over concepts.  But when our
conversations reach the real world -- and things which affect our 
lives -- then I like to have a corroboration with the real world.
     
   Also, even if there's medical documentation backing up a position,
it ain't necessarily so.  Only over time and a fair amount of experi-
mentation can we know whether something works or not.  
    
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral philos.  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:15:29
Message Number 16669

T> [Moral preaching]
   
   Well, let's take this one step at a time.  I never stated that the
Wiccan "As it harms none, do as thou wilt" and the Buddhist "Do not do
unto others what you would not have them do unto you" were the same. I
said they were "approximately the same..., one stated positively, one
stated negatively." 
    
   Your argument seemed to shove together the Buddhist position with
the Jewish one: the Jewish rule makes NO mention of prohibiting 
anything.  Only the Buddhist one does.
    
   Even still, your argument seems to be: The difference between the
Wiccan rule and the Buddhist rule is that of indirect versus direct 
harm.  The Buddhist rule only prohibits direct harm to others; the 
Wiccan rule prohibits any action that can, directly or indirectly, harm
another.  Sounds like a good summary?
    
   You yourself destroy that argument.  "If you do something which 
doesn't involve others directly and hurts others only incidentally,
you are not 'doing onto' others what you wouldn't have done unto you."
In other words, indirect harm is also part of the Buddhist rule.
     
   (The difference, as I see it, is that the Wiccan rule promotes 
activity, and supports the human will.  The Buddhist rule promotes
passivity, and makes no mention of the will.)
     
   I see the Jewish rule as the superior one.  If you saw a child 
about to drown, only the Jewish rule would ask you do save the child.
Inaction could be justified in Wicca: the child is harming herself,
you are not harming the child.  The Buddhist rule is worse: you are
not doing anything to worsen the child's problem.  
    
                           //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:43:38
Message Number 16670

>We talked.... I told him how I felt, He told me how he felt....
   
   Glad to hear it.  Hope the two of you reach a good compromize.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:48:20
Message Number 16671

>I am down to about half a pack a day on the average.....
     
   Keep up the great work!  Sounds like you'll be able to make the
big plunge REAL soon.
    
   (Try thinking about what you'll GAIN from quitting cigarettes: how
good food will taste, how much better your lungs will feel, how you
won't have to step outside every so often.  Think that you'll be much
more "kissable" to your husband, think about the money you'll save,
think about what you'll do with the extra years on your life.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:53:47
Message Number 16672

>He seems to frighten the media.
    
   He seems to frighten the world!  He's not a bad person, but he 
doesn't seem to have the strength of character needed to be President.
His Senate record was undistinguished: he tended to be a party main-
liner. But, he's good-looking, and he won't upset Bush's plans.
    
   (Ya know, I'd recommend Gov. Wilson of California for Bush's running
mate in '92. Just in case anyone's curious.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DEATH FENNEC        
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/09/91 14:09:21
Message Number 16673

   I already know my feelings for her.  I love Lisa, and I want to be
with her for as long as possible, but there is nothinig really here for
someone like me.  I need to get away from Florida, BUT NOT AWAY FROM 
HER.  She is the only thing that is standing in my way.  My feelings for
her are great, and I do not want to lose her.  I Love her, but I still
want to go ... I talked with her Yesterday, and she was very depressed,
and so was I.  Only I guess that I have too much feelings for her, bec-
ause I was CRYING over it.  I just sat and cried for awhile.  I want for
her to go, too, but that will not work.  I have already tried asking if
it could be possible to work, but until Ken Sable and I are financially
set, then I do not think that she should be coming out.  
 
              I Love Her So ...
 
     /| De(pressed)ath Fennec -- ;>
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:20:28
Message Number 16675

C'mon, you & I & everyone knows that God isn't any gender: it's our 
language that forces a gender on any sentient being (real or imagined).
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: God's gender   
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:21:59
Message Number 16676

Hmmm...can God reproduce him/her/it/self?? Without another God??
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:23:21
Message Number 16677

I doubt that. Religious discussions can only be based on subjective
beliefs, so that the "logic" is always flawed by "beliefs assumed to
be factual". Not only will "not everyone will agree with the 
conclusions," not everyone will agree with the original assumptions!
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Tantric Sex    
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:25:15
Message Number 16678

I understand that the man's sexual feelings go well beyond "normal"
sexual feelings (UNLESS the act is done primarily FOR the sexual
feelings, and not for the Enlightenment).....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:28:45
Message Number 16679

Word play: wanna define "love" for us?
And who said that ALL our beliefs are limiting? Are we afraid to examine
those which really may be so?
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Buscaglia      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:30:45
Message Number 16680

Heheheh....perhaps me too....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:31:22
Message Number 16681

Heheh....hey, I may join a really clean Jewish group; they meet at
Temple Bon-Ami.......
(arrgggh)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:34:38
Message Number 16682

Great; keep it up: it's worth the hassles.... Someday, IF I end up 
dying of a smoking-related disease, I'll feel good knowing I might have
helped in a very small way, by encouraging a few others to quit....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:37:12
Message Number 16683

Agreed. Therefore, let us go on to other subjects.
(God willing).... :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Running Liz's  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:38:14
Message Number 16684

Heheheh....I know what you mean: those guys are a riot!! I can't
figure out how they keep from falling either backward or forward!!
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:39:14
Message Number 16685

Society sure fights it. E.g., family is better than non-family,
drug use=drug abuse, prurient materials are bad (and non-art),
heros must kill (or direct the killing of) others...etc....
Yet, especially when we're young, we can keep from getting sucked in...
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: ALL                 
Subject: CYA            
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:53:49
Message Number 16686

Welp...gonna go to PA for a week, so all messages after this will not
have thier responses read for a week.  Just so you knew...
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Hey!           
Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:58:50
Message Number 16687

Hmmm.  Yes, I think that I had heard you tell Saavik that [about your 
handle].
 
No, I haven't read HACKERS.  What's it about?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Whoops...      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 18:03:56
Message Number 16688

DF>BTW, what's IMHO?
T>In My Humble Opinion.
 
Humble?  HAH!  
===========

From: OPUS                
To: SHANDRA             
Subject: Humph!         
Date & Time: 05/09/91 19:18:07
Message Number 16689

    "Babysit", Kheblan exlcaims, "You treat me as if I'm insane!"
 
    "Well the least I can do it go out the the shed with Tampa, I do
have a little experiance with heavey and light arms, and it has been so
long since I've been in a fight," Kheblan chiprs, then comes to his
sences, "Excuse me, but your expecting someone to attack here???  Hmm, 
If I recall I got bitched at when I first came here because I mentioned
the word violence <sly grin>, well anyways, I'll help Tampa, and take
a load off your back, 'babysitting' wise..."
===========

From: OPUS                
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Explosives     
Date & Time: 05/09/91 19:22:33
Message Number 16690

   "A while back a freind of mine in the service was an explosive
specialist, he had the best nose on all of FurBell Station 34.2.1a.  A
little of his couldn't couldn't help but rub off on me, I'd be glad to
sniff the place later on if you'd like me too, that is, after I go help
'the boys'.  Just tell me what you think." Kheblan rattles on, and on, 
and on...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:23:04
Message Number 16691

>Are you running a home for wayward picks????
 
Not intentionally, but sometimes it sure seems that way.
 
>Geez, you even end up with all the homeless yo-yo's in the universe.
 
And that isn't all. The newest member of our happy little family is a
gigantic pair of black cyberpunk glasses that look like they belong on
one of the random thugs in "Bladerunner." No trace of an owner can be
found for them, either. Come to think of it, I'm not terribly sure how
the damn teletype machine ended up in my attic, either.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:25:29
Message Number 16692

>...what I meant to say, is that there are always two sides to every
>issue...
 
Now there's dipolar thinking for you. Most reasonably interesting issues
have far more than two sides to 'em. Trying to see /all/ the sides is
likely to give you the clearest picture of the situation.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:28:08
Message Number 16693

>ThFig Newton was 100 years old today.
 
Whose Fig Newton? Lord knows I've found some stuff in the fridge that's
going on a couple of decades, but damn, I ain't never found anything
that's /that/ old...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Moral philos.  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:30:25
Message Number 16694

>You yourself destroy that argument.
 
I certainly do not. I can see where you arrive at that conclusion,
though; you did not correctly understand the sentence which you quoted
back. That sentence supports, not demolsihes, my argument. Please go
back and re-read it.
 
Your point about the drowning child is well taken; only the Golden Rule
/mandates/ that you take action to save the child in that situation.
Obviously, none of the rules we are discussing is in and of itself a
complete moral code. You can't really put an entire system of ethics
into a single sentence; I still believe that the Wiccan effort is more
broad and hits closer to the mark than the Golden Rule, however.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Compro--huh?   
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:34:07
Message Number 16695

>Hope the two of you reach a good compromize.
 
"Compromise." (Heh, heh, heh.) That reminds me in an offhand way though
of an article by Douglas Hofstadter about compromise; it's not always
the appropriate solution to a problem. If Jimmy and Sammy are arguing
about dividing a cake, with Jimmy saying he wants half of it and Sammy
demanding all of it, a rational person would not say, "Okay, now you
two compromise. Jimmy can have one-third of it, and Sammy can have two-
thirds." It's dangerous to assume that compromise is the solution to a
problem you don't have any direct knowledge of; people have an annoying
habit of believing justice must lie halfway between two opposing points
of view, and in reality t'ain't always so.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:38:02
Message Number 16696

>I already know my feelings for her.
 
Have you looked at them objectively? It can't hurt; if you two really
love each other then your trip won't end that, but it /will/ give you a
chance to step back and look at your feelings a little more clearly.
Hey, it couldn't hurt..................
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Tantric Sex    
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:40:06
Message Number 16697

>I understand that the man's sexual feelings go well beyond "normal"
>sexual feelings (UNLESS the act is done primarily FOR the sexual
>feelings...)
 
Sounds like a whole new twist on the concept of 'recreational sex.' You
know, this idea is beginning to intrigue me...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:42:49
Message Number 16698

>...Temple Bon-Ami........
>(arrgggh)
 
You said it.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:44:04
Message Number 16699

>Yet, especially when we're young, we can keep from getting sucked in...
 
Yeah, but those who /don't/ then spend a good deal of time harassing,
abusing, or otherwise molesting those who haven't accepted the whole
ball of wax; there's something in there that says that not only are
society's conventions a good thing to have, but intolerance of other
conventions is equally important. Grr...
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:37:03
Message Number 16700

>C'mon, you & I & everyone knows that God isn't any gender...
    
   Really?  There've been a bunch of religions where the gods were
EMPHATICALLY of gender...
    
>It's our language that forces a gender on any sentient being (real
>or imagined).
     
   And there are religions which say God isn't sentient.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: God's gender   
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:40:10
Message Number 16701

>Can God reproduce him/her/it/self?? Without another God??
   
   Well, if She couldn't reproduce, that means She wouldn't be 
omnipotent, right?  But, personally, I think She's waiting for the
Perfect Mate.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:41:30
Message Number 16702

   I agree completely that not everyone will agree with the assumptions.
But "logic" -- to me, at least -- does not deal with the assumptions,
only with how the assumptions are put together.  For example:
    
   The Armadillo is God.
   All armadillos are purple.
  -------------------------------
   God is purple.
     
   Completely correct logic: but most people would disagree with both
assumptions and the conclusion.  This is what happens in religious 
discussions.  Logic might be flawless, but assumptions are shaky.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:45:42
Message Number 16703

>And who said that ALL our beliefs are limiting?
    
   I did, and still stand on that.  All beliefs are limiting.  We should
only throw out useless beliefs.
     
>Are we afraid to examine those which really may be so?
   
   No. But give me an example of a non-limiting belief first.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:49:29
Message Number 16704

>Gigantic pair of black cyberpunk glasses...
    
   Hmmm... ask Fennic if he borrowed them from a school chum.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Huh-uh         
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:50:25
Message Number 16705

>Trying to see /all/ the sides is likely to give you the clearest
>picture of the situation.
     
   Yes, but only insects have enough eyes to do that.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral philos.  
Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:58:03
Message Number 16706

   I don't see how your sentence ("If you do something which doesn't
harm others directly and hurts others only incidentally, you are not
'doing onto' others what you wouldn't want done unto you.") could be
taken to mean ANYTHING but both direct and indirect harm is prohibited.
     
   Changing the topic slightly, you said, "You can't really put an
entire system of ethics into a single sentence."  My question: Do you
feel you can put an entire system of ethics into English?  Is ethics
completely describable?
    
   I agree that the Wiccan rule is more broad than the Jewish rule.  I
also agree that Crowley's rule is more broad than the two of them. So
what?
     
   Which of the two comes "closer to the mark," of course depends on
your full system of ethics: I'm sure the two of us would disagree on
a huge number of points on what's ethical.  
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Compro--huh?   
Date & Time: 05/09/91 23:06:18
Message Number 16707

Douglas Hofstadter stole the idea from Raymond Smullyan.  Fine.  May
I substitute the word "agreement"?
       
   	                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/10/91 07:00:41
Message Number 16708

T> Who's Fig Newton?
Nobody, it's the fig-filled cookie made by Nabisco.
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
 
(also available in strawberry & blueberry, I think...)
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: ALL                 
Subject: New & Improved!
Date & Time: 05/10/91 15:13:10
Message Number 16709

Call Ye Olde English Den!
It's up 24 hours a day, running on C-net. supporting 00-1200 baud.
 
The # is 493-8401
 
(This is an unpaid non-political announcement)
On-line games!!!!!!
 
===========

From: OPUS                
To: ALL!                
Subject: Uhh..          
Date & Time: 05/10/91 18:48:11
Message Number 16710

    I sat down the other day and had a strange idea, I figured I would
share it with you.
 
     Everyone has certain traits that seperate him/her from other
hims/hers. (Hair Color, Eye Color, Height, etc...)
 
	     So I asked myself, I wonder in color perception is differnt to 
people, and since it is impossible to describe colors (How do you tell a
blind person what red looks like?) we may never know, here is my idea.
 
      Everyone views colors differntly from everyone else, For Example
let'sgo down to the three basic colors Red, Blue,  and Yellow.  Now I
was wondering, How do I know that my yellow isn't your Blue, and your
red my blue?  If you are brought up that grass is GREEN you'd always
think green was the color of grass, but I might see grass to be a 
differnt color, but I would still think it was Green since everyone has 
me it is green.  
 
       So, this means, that some people may see the world in the 
reverse of what I, or anyone else, perceives it to be.
  
       The same concept can also be applied to White and Black.. 
 
       So did ANYONE understand what I'm trying to say???  I sure would 
like to answer this some day, before I pull ALL my hair out!
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:23:06
Message Number 16712

Well, as long as you love each other... then you can work around the 
distance for a while.. you can draw her pictures and send her poetry in 
the mail. And if finances allow, you can call her, and she can call you.
If the pain is too great of being away from her.... you can always come
back... but I'd give it a chance if I were you.. you may find that you 
really like California. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:26:05
Message Number 16713

CD>...a really clean Jewish group; they meet at the Temple Bon-Ami.... 
 
I like the really COOL Jewish group across town; they meet at the 
Temple Bon-Jovi.... 
Sorry, it was there, I hadda say it. 
God will get me for that I'm sure. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:28:08
Message Number 16714

Arg, some days I'm back sliding and smoking more... but i'm keeping it 
down as much as I can.... Something deep down inside of me just isn't 
ready to give it up yet... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Running Liz's  
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:29:29
Message Number 16715

Those lizards are FAST!!! But they look so stupid! Like a cross between
a chicken and an iguana. Do you watch the discovery channel by chance? 
They really have some good programming. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:31:25
Message Number 16716

I can't believe how intense Peer pressure is.... I mean, Wow. I remember
it being bad when I was in school... but it seems to have gotten a lot 
worse. I don't think you can blame Everything on society... I think the 
Media promotes a lot of that. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:35:20
Message Number 16717

If I recall, Scott Steel used to call you a Babe Magnet.... could it 
be that the sunglasses and the Yo yo and all the other aquired stuff 
misunderstood and thought you were a junk magnet?? 
Well, it was just a thought. 
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/11/91 00:30:54
Message Number 16719

DrF> Try thinking about what you'll gain from quitting cigarettes....
   
Yes, all that is well and good, but their is still nothing better than a
good cigarette.
  
                     Your X smoked * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Moral philos.  
Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:08:14
Message Number 16720

If you do something which does not harm anyone directly and harms others
only indirectly, you are not 'doing unto' others what you would not have
them done unto you.
 
That means:
 
If you do something which harms others only indirectly, you are not
doing unto others what you would not have them do unto you. The part
you are not interpreting correctly is the clause 'you are not doing unto
others...' What I am saying is this: If you do that which harms others
only indirectly, you are not doing anything UNTO OTHERS; you are doing
something which is not directed at other people but which involves them
only incidentally. You are not 'doing unto others what you would not hav
them do unto you'; you are not violating the Golden Rule. If you re-read
the sentence again, you will see that in interpreting it as you are you
are losing the negation in the last clause.
 
>Do you think you can express a complete set of ethics in English?
 
That's an issue that has nothing to do with what I was discussing, and
frankly I'm not that interested in getting into a discussion on
semantics and linguistics. Sufice it to say that I don't think there's
anything terribly mysterious about ethics, or even anything intrinsic-
ally different from any other complex belief sets. I certainly don't see
any reason why a complete set of ethics can't be stated in any
particular language you care to name.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:17:52
Message Number 16721

KO> Who's Fig Newton?
 
That's not what I said. I said, 'Whose Fig Newton'? You said the Fig
Newton was 100 years old; I know /I/ don't have any that old, and was
wondering if maybe /yours/ was.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Uhh..          
Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:19:11
Message Number 16722

The idea you state about color perception is hardly a new one; I came
up with it independantly many, many years ago, and it wasn't new then.
That question also came up in a college neurophysiology class I had
a few years back. Suffice it to say there's a certain amount of physio-
logical evidence that suggests color perception does not differ all that
radically between individuals, and we'll leave it at that...unless you
want me to dust off the old notes and let you have 'em... (heh, heh)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:22:48
Message Number 16723

>If I recall, Scott Steel used to call you a Babe Magnet....
 
Yeah, and he still does, and he's not the only one. I wish everybody
/couldn't/ recall, actually.
 
>...thought you were a junk magnet??
 
I AM a junk magnet! Trouble is, that stuff isn't junk. I dunno, it
just works out that way.
===========

From: SCOTT STEEL         
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: Dinosaurs      
Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:50:46
Message Number 16724

I watched Dinosaurs tonight, as a matter of fact, I thought it was 
pretty funny.  (The episode where the husband was going to throw his
mother-in-law in the tar pit.)
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/11/91 13:47:28
Message Number 16726

I thought about the way I posted that... only it was too late. Let's put
it this way: The Fig Newton cookie has been in production for 100 years.
Better?
 
Newton is a town in Massechusetts, I believe.
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: TURTLE              
Subject: junk           
Date & Time: 05/11/91 13:54:23
Message Number 16727

What ever happened to that Yo-Yo?
Did ya sell it to Duncan Donuts?
(I know, it was a bad pun...) [grin]
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Buddhist Morals
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:40:33
Message Number 16728

I don't think you quite have the Buddhist moral position down very well;
one of the problems is that Buddhism is like Christianity in that there
are dozens - hundreds! - of Buddhist "churches" (organized groups).
For instance, one group (well, probably alot more than one) believes
that one should not kill, or cause to be killed, any living thing. Dick
Gregory had (has?) this position. He eats only "parts" of vegetable
matter -- nuts, fruits, etc.  From about 8 years of research, my sense
is that most Buddhists believe that if the results of any action are
"bad" (and if one knows this), the action is wrong, and a good Buddhist
would not perform that action (Karma and all that). 
An interesting aside is that the 10 Commandments are supposedly God's
word on what one should not do. In Buddhism (or at least some groups),
there are almost exactly those same 10 "commandments", but they are
prefaced by:   A Buddhist has no reason to:
                1 - Kill
                2 - Slander
                3 - (etc.)
Nontheless, with Buddhism arising from a very "old" civilization, the
moral precepts tend to be (in my opinion) rather well-followed....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Tantric Sex    
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:51:50
Message Number 16729

It is, apparently, an incredible experience - and for reasons beyond
sex. The "peak experience" is supposed to be a new relationship to
"existence"...I've only met one person who practiced it, and he said
not to even CONSIDER it unless one is serious about Enlightenment...
hmmm....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:53:48
Message Number 16730

Didn't like that Temple Bon-Ami, eh?? Ok, well watch it: I'm now 
attending a really tough Italian church: Church of the Double Cross...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:54:47
Message Number 16731

Yeah, it's tough to stay free from social pushes....but it's worth
it: I've seen some succomb, others transcend......
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:56:17
Message Number 16732

There aren't many religions left which believe in "the gods", and
of course, that wasn't the issue. And "sentient" definitions are
certainly not the issue.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: God's gender   
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:57:51
Message Number 16733

Maybe it's YOU!!!
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:58:27
Message Number 16734

 Re logic, no, what you gave was not correct "logic" - it was correct
 logical processing. I consider logic the skill of determining correct
 conclusions from correct assumptions ("correct", or "proven", or
 "provable").... When we talk of purple Gods or armadillos we're
 recreating, not having a "logical discussion"...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:00:51
Message Number 16735

Beliefs which don't limit our view of what is possible, e.g., that
humans have the capability of reaching goals we currently don't think
we can reach....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: OPUS                
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:04:03
Message Number 16736

Re colors, not easy to "prove" that my perception of green is the 
"same" as yours. But I don't think that carries over to, say, white
and black (since "luminence" is a variable which we can, at least
on some level "measure" - i.e., we agree that there is more "brightness"
to white than gray)...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:06:19
Message Number 16737

Heheheh.....just don't get involved in any oppresive religion, like
Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility.....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:07:14
Message Number 16738

Stay with it: experience the experience of giving it up......
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Discovery Chann
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:07:47
Message Number 16739

I watch it occasionally: kinda tough for my ol' tv to get channel 1...
but if I "detune" it enough, I can sorta get it...
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:08:45
Message Number 16740

I think that the media is a part of "society". Society ain't an
independent thing: it's a "conglomeration", and we, each of us,
play our part in it as well! No one of us can control it, but
we can take responsibility for doing our creative best to aim
its values in what we think are good directions. I remember a
number of musically proficient friends who got some excellent
musical insights when high (usually grass); should we negate those
insights by saying "Drugs Are Bad", "Don't Think: Just Say No"...????
Yet no one (or few) of us will change those social beliefs, and they
probably _won't_ change until other factors on this crazy planet
change as well....
===========

From: OPUS                
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Brightness.    
Date & Time: 05/11/91 19:03:00
Message Number 16741

    Evertone agrees that white is bright, and black is dark, but if you
were always pointed to soemthing that was black and told that is was
bright since the moment you were born you'd assume that it was bright,
and I would assume it was bright, but if I was to go into your body, 
having prvious knowledge of what is "bright" and what is not, I'd think
that you saw the world in reverse of what I did, since black would be 
dark to you, but your black would be my white, so it'd be light to
me!   
 
    Oh well, I doubt anyone every did, or every will figure it out.
===========

From: RAT                 
To: OPUS                
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/11/91 19:22:47
Message Number 16742

When people right messages like the one about briteness,
it kinda messes up my brain and makes me smell badly.(I mean
spell badly).If possible, please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT
ANYMORE!!
                                      THANK YOU,
                                      {a messed up} rat
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:19:10
Message Number 16744

>Newton is a town in Massechusetts [sic], I believe.
 
Well, actually, the town is "Newton Centre." The Newton Centre Z-Node
(a /very/ large Remote Z-System and MSTF member system) is there, along
with Jay Sage, professor at MIT and big-time Z-System developer/hacker/
enthusiast.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:22:32
Message Number 16745

>When we talk of purple Gods or armadillos we're recreating, not having
>a "logical discussion"...
 
Or, as Mark Twain put it, "faith is believing what you know ain't so."
I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the same way as
logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that leap of faith
buried in there somewhere....try as you might to conceal it....
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Brightness.    
Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:25:39
Message Number 16746

You can call 'bright' anything you want to, but that doesn't change the
perceptive qualities of it. If you have always used the word 'bright'
to refer to dark objects, that doesn't mean your world would be th
reverse of someone who did not; it just means you use different words
for the same phenomenon.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAT                 
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:27:07
Message Number 16747

>...please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT ANYMORE!!
 
Or write them, even??
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:19:22
Message Number 16749

Fig Newton is 100? Ewwww, I wouldn't eat anything /that/ old... I've 
heard that Twinkies have that kind of shelf life.... but I don't think 
I'll put that theory to the test..
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Uhh..          
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:26:14
Message Number 16750

You bring up an interesting point... take color blind people for 
instance. Colors cannot be described with words, they must be viewed. 
If a blind person from birth suddenly regained their sight... they 
would not know that Green was the color of grass.... but they would 
be able to see the grass.... and the color... just not know what it was 
called. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:29:21
Message Number 16751

Um, Crystal.... I beg to differ.... ther ARE better things than a good 
cigarette.... but they are even better when followed with a Good 
Cigarette, eh? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:32:00
Message Number 16752

Maybe the sunglasses just popped over to check out Crystals new couch. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SCOTT STEEL         
Subject: Dinosaurs      
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:32:56
Message Number 16753

"Not the Mamma, Not the Mamma" Bang Bang Bang... (sigh) it was all to 
familiar... hehehe. Actually, I found that show annoying somehow. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:35:53
Message Number 16754

Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility? Sounds boring... hey! That sounds
like my life!!!!!! Do they pass out peanut butter sandwitches and milk 
instead of bread and wine? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:37:19
Message Number 16755

And when they pass around the offering plate, do people put in clipped 
coupons instead of money? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:37:58
Message Number 16756

CD>...experience the experience of giving it up.... 
 
I'll smoke to that!   Sorry, its just one of those backsliding days. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:39:26
Message Number 16757

Yeah, but the Media influences society as a whole.. How many times have 
you heard about a court case, then a few months later, TV makes one of 
those annoying Made for Television movies about it and changes everyones
view of the whole incident. They only put in the facts THEY want to put
across, they can completely destroy the facts with fiction of their own
liking... The the bit about the Atlanta Child Murders... the TV movie 
made the guy who was arrested look like an innocent victem of the law. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:43:35
Message Number 16758

T> Actually, the town is "Newton Centre". ..... along with Jay Sage, 
professor at MIT and big-time Z-System developer/hacker/enthusiast. 
 
Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: OPUS                
Subject: Brightness.    
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:43:23
Message Number 16759

No, your perceptions wouldn't change if bodies were switched. Just the
words to describe 'bright' and 'dark'....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:44:59
Message Number 16760

I agree completely (which makes for a lousy debate!)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:46:32
Message Number 16761

Heheheh....no, you gotta cook for everyone else there! Heavy stuff....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Reverence      
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:47:09
Message Number 16762

hahahaha..... The Church is made of cement of course....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:47:47
Message Number 16763

Heheheh....yeah, I know what you mean...
But seriously (folks), being a HEAVILY addicted smoker is NOT fun, nor
is it cheap, nor is it safe. I salute ANYone who can give it up.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:49:51
Message Number 16764

That can happen, but (I believe) not often. I guess the "bottom line"
is, how can we _ever_ know the "facts"...they have to be communicated
from SOMEplace, and (as in crimes and other misdemeanors) often the
only ones who _know_ the truth won't tell it!
===========

From: KYARA TOKYO         
To: ROBERT              
Subject: Moving along   
Date & Time: 05/12/91 13:53:54
Message Number 16765

  Kyara lets Robert massage her shoulders and relaxes herself so that 
he will not be able to sense her slight tension.  She closes her eyes
and moans softly.  She mumbles, "My sword has been in my family for 
generations.  I am an only child, so I was given the sword when my 
father died."  
===========

From: RAT                 
To: TURTLE              
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/12/91 17:50:30
Message Number 16766

r>...please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT ANYMORE!!
T>Or write them, even??
I don't even want you to right them!!!!!
             By the way, how do you skip a line when you're
             writing a message?  I've been dying to know my
             entire life.
===========

From: OPUS                
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/12/91 18:52:55
Message Number 16767

    They would porbably know green was the color of grass, but they
wouldn't know for example, that ugg, my Prodify book is Oragne, or
something uncommon like that.
 
   It seems to me, if we can have color blind people, why can't we have
People Who See Colors Differntly People?
===========

From: OPUS                
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Hmm..          
Date & Time: 05/12/91 18:55:37
Message Number 16768

   Well if my black looked liek white to you, and your nlack looked
like white to me, then our perceptions WOULD be changed, and our 
ideas of what is light or dark would also be reversed.
 
     Here's an example, let's say your brain is programed like this:
  
                 With ColorThatISaw do
                    If X length of Light Waves then color = Blue;
                    If Y length of Light Waves then color = Green;
 
 	   
     May I should rephrase that.
 
	   Learned Colors = Green, Red, Blue
 
           With Color That I Saw do
                 If X length of light wave then color = 1;
                 If Y length of light wave then color = 2;
 
 Now, If you saw Color 1, then you saw what you have been told is green.
 
So, let's say someone else has
                                                                   
                If X length of light wave then color = 2;
		                If Y length of light wave then color = 1;
 
  What you are told are the colors (Green, Red, Blue), haven't changed,
but the way that person B's brain figures them out HAS chnaged, now why
can't it be possible?
 
   BTW, did the above example make any sence at all?
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/12/91 21:48:09
Message Number 16770

C> Yes, all that is well and good, but their is still nothing better 
C> than a good cigarette.
     
   Not even sex?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral philos.  
Date & Time: 05/12/91 21:50:06
Message Number 16771

T> If you do that which harms others only indirectly, you are not doing
T> anything UNTO OTHERS; you are doing something which is not directed 
T> at other people, but which involves them only incidentally.
    
   And you later say that you're not interested in getting into a d
discussion on "semantics and linguistics"?  I was considering "unto"
as a synonym of "to." 
       
   (By the way, if you must refer to the rules by metals: the Buddhist
rule, "Do not do...what you would not have them..." is called the Silver
Rule.  The Golden Rule drops the "nots" -- and is therefore quite 
different.)
    
   I see your point, though, how "unto" implies not doing anything
which directly hurts others, but allows for the possibility of doing
things which indirectly hurt others. 
     
   To change the topic, no, I DON'T believe all of ethics could be
stated completely.  There's too much situational ethics that's necessary
in the world to define ethics.  If you accept the commandment: "Thou
shalt not murder," I'd ask you to define murder.  Is killing in self-
defense murder?  What about animals?  And how does one define self-
defense?  The circle goes on.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Buddhist Morals
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:07:34
Message Number 16772

(This is what you get for not quite understanding what was being
discussed.)
   
   Your note was, well, appreciated, though it was way off the mark.
One of the sayings of the Buddha, which applies quite well to Western
ideas, was the so-called "Silver Rule": "Do not do unto others what you
would not have them do unto you."
   
   Turtle and I were debating about the differences between Buddhism's
"Silver Rule" and the rule the Wiccans believe ("If it harms not others,
do as thou wilt.").  This kind of splintered from a conversation about
which simple moral rule, if taken alone, would lead to the "best" --
and most useful -- morality.
     
   We weren't at all trying to set down either the complete Buddhist,
Wiccan, or Judaic moral philosophies.  Just which "base rule" came the
closest to morality.
   
   About your "interesting aside:"  You might find it interesting to
check out the 10 Commandments, and figure out how many of them are of
the form: "Thou shalt not..." (Hint: Not one of the first five
commandments are negative.  They all command you to DO something.)
And at least four of the commandments could NOT translate over to 
Buddhism, even if they wanted to.  
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: God's gender   
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:21:37
Message Number 16773

DrF> ...personally, I think She's waiting for the Perfect Mate.
     
CD> Maybe it's YOU!!!
     
Hee hee hee! ;>   Well, I don't like to admit it, but I'm much more
interested in Her only begotten Daughter.  (She's cute!)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:34:43
Message Number 16775

CD> I consider logic the skill of determining correct conclusions from
CD> correct assumptions ("correct" or "proven", or "provable")
     
   Well, we disagree on the definition of logic.  I consider logic to
be a kind of computer -- utterly incapable of determining what's 
applyable to the real world, but able to make good judgements, given
good data.
     
   Also, I take issue with your idea: "correct" or "proven".  How do
you know when something is "proven"?   I prefer the concept of "useful"
to describe the world.  Scientific theories change as new data enters.
(Newton's laws of motion are still extremely "useful" theories -- even
though they've been "proven" wrong.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:42:37
Message Number 16776

> I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the same way
> as logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that leap of 
> faith buried in there somewhere.... try as you might to conceal it....
      
     O H ,   P L E A S E ! ! !  Spare me, Turtle.  I thought you were
much more intelligent than that.  Do you REALLY think it's possible to
have a discussion -- ANY discussion -- without some sort of faith?
Even if it's called a "shared world view" (which presupposes that 
reality exists, and that we usually perceive it correctly) there's a
leap of faith.  There was a leap of faith when you sat down on the
chair you're sitting in.  (Even if you've sat in it thousands of times
before, inductive reasoning proves nothing.)
     
   All of mathematics depends on "leaps of faith."  And frequently,
mathematicians disagree about those "leaps of faith," or axioms. 
Because all physical sciences depend on mathematics, those leaps of 
faith find their way into just about everything.
    
   Well, what's the difference between these mathematical axioms and
religious axioms?   Only one thing: verifiability.  There's nothing
wrong with leaps of faith. Period.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:51:26
Message Number 16777

S> Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
    
   Yes, but she's not important.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: RAT                 
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:52:57
Message Number 16778

R> By the way, how do you skip a line when you're writing a message?
R> I've been dying to know my entire life.
     
   "My entire life"?  Wow.  If you were born after the first BBS's went
up, we can excuse a few typos here and there.
     
   Anyway, how to skip a line.  Hmmm... Pressing <Return> doesn't seem
to do it.
     
   Neither does anything in the Edit menu seem to help...
    
   Hmmm... 
     
   In fact, I don't think there's ANY way of keeping the computer from
stopping when you type a completely blank line...
     
   Maybe if those lines just seem blank, and actually contain invisible
text?   
     
   Naaah.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: RAT                 
Subject: skipping lines 
Date & Time: 05/13/91 00:05:06
Message Number 16779

If you wanna skip a line, just hit the space bar and then return.
 
Like that, hehehe...
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: OPUS                
Subject: Hmm..          
Date & Time: 05/13/91 00:08:21
Message Number 16780

>BTW, did the abov example make any sense at all?
 
yeah, It's kinda like dyslexia, only w/ colors.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: ALL                 
Subject: Enter Wesley   
Date & Time: 05/13/91 13:09:41
Message Number 16781

   "Yeee- haw!"  The hovercraft skipped above the ocean at over a 
hundred fifty kilos per.  Long black hair whipped behind the goggled
smiling face.  The one-man hovercraft, emblazoned with the UraniCo 2100
trademark, skipped among the Florida islands.  He was hot, and he knew
it.
   
   Within a mile of the Tampa Radiation belt, his Geiger counter started
beeping incessantly.  He veered to the east, away from the island which
was once a city.  Some of the smaller islands there had natives trying
to get his attention.  He just laughed and went onward.
     
   He had heard from some older folks about the Den of Decadence: a 
place where nothing ruled except force.  He was going to show them a 
thing or two!  He was pretty good at karate -- he just got his green
belt.  He could take care of himself.
   
   He finally got to the ruins where the Den was located.  Remembering
the map, he wound his way until he got to the Den, and parked the
'craft.  
     
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: ALL                 
Subject: Wesley         
Date & Time: 05/13/91 13:23:26
Message Number 16782

   I don't want to write the part between the guards of the place and
Wesley.  Here's his stats:
     
   Wesley is, simply, a spoiled brat.  His parents own UraniCo, the
largest supplier of uranium in the world.  (They're centered in New
Atlanta, though most of their mines are elsewhere.)
      
   He is, of course, armed with three knives: one in each boot, and
one strapped under his left sleeve.  They shouldn't be too hard for
the guards to find, but he'll be REAL upset when they're taken from
him.
     
   He is fifteen years old, and looks it -- though he THINKS he looks
older.  He has long, black hair, dark brown eyes, and is one hundred
percent human.  
   
   One of the more unusual items he's carrying is a 'coonskin hat with
a nice, long tail.  This will figure more prominently later.  He has a
fake I.D. saying he's twenty-one (though I doubt that will be used.)
And the hovercraft is of a model that it's REAL easy to pick the locks
and take off on...
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: OPUS                
Subject: Light          
Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:08:24
Message Number 16785

We gotta be careful here cause we're talking about two different
things: one is color, the other (which I'm focusing on) is white vs.
black. White is brighter: brightness is light intensity. We can 
objectively determine white from black by its intensity....
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: God's Daughter?
Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:11:59
Message Number 16786

Hmmmm....how old is..."She"??
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:12:39
Message Number 16787

One has the same problem with "useful" as with "correct" or "proven":
in fact, ANY concept which relates to absolutes (and "useful" - having
"value", does relate to absolutes).  And Newton's laws were not
"Proven wrong": they were just shown to be "local" rather than
"universal" in their validity (and they're USEFUL!!)
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/13/91 22:17:45
Message Number 16788

S>but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette. eh?
  
As usual you are once again correct.
  
                               * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/13/91 22:22:21
Message Number 16789

Drf>Not even sex?
 
Ok so I stand corrected.  But I am sure their is someone in this world 
who has had a better cigarette then sex.
  
                             * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:37:31
Message Number 16792

>.... ther ARE better things than a good cigarette....
 
Like the ability to breathe.
 
>...but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh?
 
No. Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray
 
...isn't "good cigarette" an oxymoron?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:39:18
Message Number 16793

>Yeah, but the Media influences society as a whole.
 
And society influences "the Media." What's your point? "The Media" is
not this big, mysterious conglomerate that's out to tell you what to
think or anything like that; "The Media" is a bunch of people who call
it like they see it. "The Media" is your local newscaster, you know? You
ever write anything to describe something to someone else, well, you're
"The Media" too. If someone writes a bad made-for-TV movie, it's not
"The Media"'s fault, it's the fault of the guy who wrote it. Since
you're down on "The Media," though, lemme ask you this: If "The Media"
didn't tell you about corruption in your school board or asbestos in
your drinking water, who the hell would?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:43:19
Message Number 16794

>Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
 
Um...Kim Basinger?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAT                 
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:45:25
Message Number 16795

>By the way, how do you skip a line...?
 
You put a space on the line. The blank line right above this one isn't
blank; it's got a space in it. You just can't see the space, that's all.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:46:29
Message Number 16796

>...if we have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See
>Colors Differently People?
 
Color-blind people have a physical problem with the receptors in their
eye or in the circuitry that processes color information in the optic
chiasm or the brain that results in information from some of the color
receptors not getting processed correctly. As a result, some of the
color information is missing. If the system works, it works the same way
in every member of a given species. If part of the system doesn't work,
you get color blindness or some other visual defect. Very simple, no?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Hmm..          
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:49:26
Message Number 16797

>[Programming examples]
 
When someone tells you that color X is called "blue," it does not have
any effect on the /way/ you perceive that color. It doesn't matter
/what/ sound you attach to that color, you perceive it in a given
way that's totally unaffected by the color's name. If you told a baby
that red was called "blue" for his entire life, he'd still SEE it as
red; he'd just use a different pattern of sounds to describe it, that's
all.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Buddhist Morals
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:52:10
Message Number 16798

>...at least four of the commandments could NOT translate over to
>Buddhism...
 
Yeah, the damn silly ones that don't have a whole lot of bearing on the
way one interacts with the real world ("Thou shalt have no other god
before me," etc.) The /useful/ commandments are pretty much universal,
simply because it's difficult to build a society without them.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:54:53
Message Number 16799

>Well, what's the difference between these mathematical axioms and
>religious axioms? Only one thing: verifiability.
 
Oh, please. I thought you were more intelligent than that. That is
exactly what I was talking about. If I drop a hammer and expect it
it fall, that is a "leap of faith" of a completely different order
than if I drop dead and expect god to be waiting for me when I'm
through. I fail to see how your argument has any bearing on a
discussion of the intrinsic differences between religious debates and
other types of debates.
===========

From: SHANDRA             
To: OPUS                
Subject: Humph!         
Date & Time: 05/14/91 01:03:36
Message Number 16800

Oh, God. Just what I need. "You stay right there," I tell the tailless
'morph. "The last thing I need right now is someone who's playing with
a few cards missing handling a gun around me. Capische?" Lordy, that'd
be just fuggin' great...this guy loose with a gun in the middle of a
firefight. "Besides, I'm not sure that anything is going to happen. I
just want to be ready if it does, you know?" My tail flicks up over my
shoulder; I catch myself starting to chew on its tip again and coil it
firmly around my waist. "I think I'm going to go outside and take a look
around," I say to Tampa. "This little screwball must've come from some-
where, and the more I think about this the more I bet there's a number o
people who're probably really anxious to find him again. My guess is
that he's AWOL from a merc outfit. Maybe the bunch that did that New
Panama job, maybe not. Either way, if they want him back in a bad enough
way we might find ourselves with a problem." I shrug, and walk toward
the door. "And you," I say, pointing at the little morph, "STAY PUT!"
I walk outside, tail lashing behind me.
===========

From: ROBERT              
To: KYARA TOKYO         
Subject: Moving along   
Date & Time: 05/14/91 01:13:37
Message Number 16801

"Yes, I rather imagine that it has been," Robert says. "I expected you
might quite like to have it back. Did you know that in ancient times
the Japanese believed a samurai's sword contained the samurai's soul?
I imagine your soul has quite a history, little ronin." He slides
Kyara's robe off her shoulders as he continues, "I would like to visit
Japan again. It's a pity that events have made that impossible." He
continues to massage her back, then after a pause says "Perhaps you
should lie down so I can continue this properly."
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: God's Daughter?
Date & Time: 05/14/91 07:55:01
Message Number 16802

>Hmmm... how old is... "She"??
     
   Why, Charles!  I thought you knew that a gentleman never asks a
woman her age.  (hee hee!)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/14/91 07:56:50
Message Number 16803

>One has the same problem with "useful" as with "correct" or "proven":
>in fact, ANY concept which relates to absolutes...
    
   Huh?  I thought "useful" would NOT relate to an absolute.  There may
be many "useful" theories which can explain an event: proving which one
was "correct" would be nearly impossible.  No absolutes necessary.
     
>And Newton's laws were not "Proven wrong": they were just shown to be
>"local" rather than "universal" in their validity (and they're USEFUL!)
     
   Something is "proven wrong" when a counterexample is found.  At 
speeds approaching light, force does NOT equal mass * acceleration.
But, very few people want to worry about the infinitessimal correction
Einstein's laws give when we're dealing with, say, the speed a car is
going.
   Newton's laws are a fantastic example of what I'm talking about. 
They provide an extremely accurate picture of the world, for some
world views.  BUT -- at really large speeds, or really small distances,
it breaks down, horribly.  (If Newton's laws were true, for example, 
every atom would be radiating light.)
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:10:29
Message Number 16804

>...isn't a "good cigarette" an oxymoron?
     
   Hey!  If someone wants to commit suicide through nicotine, let them.
If they think the feeling they get from smoking is worth the loss of
their lungs, they have every right.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:13:09
Message Number 16805

>If "The Media" didn't tell you about corruption in your school board
>or asbestos in your drinking water, who the hell would?
    
   Your local BBS friends!  Oops, forgot.  We're part of "The Media," 
too.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Buddhist Morals
Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:15:01
Message Number 16806

>Yeah, the damn silly ones that don't have a whole lot of bearing on
>the way one interacts with the real world ("Thou shalt have no other
>god before me," etc.)  The /useful/ commandments are pretty much
>universal, simply because it's difficult to build a society without
>them.
      
   Manifest Bullshit (tm) to two points:
     
   The second, and easiest, first:  It's very easy to build a society
without all the remaining six commandments.  Capitalism as a system is
based around breaking the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not covet."
     
   Now, on to your first point:  Again, complete and utter bullshit.
How one views God has a great bearing on how one interacts with the
real world, especially if you feel that doing well will bribe God
into a better place in Paradise (or get you out of Torment.)  If you
feel that certain actions (dying in a jihad, going to a certain
building every Sunday, not eating pork) will bribe God further, you
will also do those things. 
   Those first four commandments put the real power behind the last
six. Very simple, no?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:28:36
Message Number 16807

>That is exactly what I was talking about.
    
   If that's true, I apologize.  It sounded to me, especially from the
comment, "I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the
same way as logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that
leap of faith buried in there somewhere....try as you might to conceal
it..." that you were saying that the difference between religious
debates and other types of debates is that religious debates force a
"leap of faith".  My point, simply, was that all debates require a 
"leap of faith".
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:52:05
Message Number 16811

Cook? Uhg... I hate cooking, I hate housework.. I should have been born
rich... either that, or a man!!!! Um, don't get insulted guys... I'm not
insinuating that you all never do any chores or anything.... (cough, 
cough) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:54:17
Message Number 16812

CD>Often the only ones who _know_ the truth won't tell it! 
 
OR they'll sell "their" side of the story to the media or the networks 
provided that it is reported or filmed from their point of view... 
pretty shabby I'd say... because some people believe whatever they see
on TV.... and Enquiring Minds want to know..... blah. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: RAT                 
Subject: STRANGENESS    
Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:56:32
Message Number 16813

To skip a line... hit return like this
then hit your space bar 
 
like I did one line 3.... then return. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Colors         
Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:57:36
Message Number 16814

Well, there are different variations of color blind... some people can 
see certain colors but the shades aren't clear for them... ei... orange 
and bright orange... ya know.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: OPUS                
Subject: Hmm..          
Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:58:56
Message Number 16815

OP> BTW, did the above example make any sence at all? 
 
Well...... it looked too much like math class... so I turned my head 
as it scrolled down.... :) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CRYSTAL             
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:05:21
Message Number 16816

CY>As usual you are once again correct. 
 
Naw, that's Turtle who's always right.. I tend to be wrong... but I try
like hell to justify it.. Hehehe.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:06:58
Message Number 16817

T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray. 
 
Um, not to another smoker... I mean, who'd notice? 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:07:57
Message Number 16818

Ok, ok, ok,..... rephrasing... please stand by.............. 
 
Television influences people's views for the good as well as the bad. 
There are many people who believe whatever they see on TV... if a 
made for Television movie comes out and shows a story from only one
point of view... many people just blindly believe that's how it happened
 
Yeah, the "Media" does keep us informed by giving us the news, the facts
ect... but I wasn't knocking the newscasters or the 6:00 newsteam.... I 
was talking really about the Current Affair types, the shows that show 
you the story from the angle THEY want... or the angle that the person 
who they paid for the story WANTS. There's a difference.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Whoops...      
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:33:32
Message Number 16819

>...unless maybe you count George Will.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiirrrrgggggghhhhhhhh!
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:34:26
Message Number 16820

>I keep finding guitar picks all over the apartment, and I don't even
>own a guitar.
 
Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Birth Control  
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:35:38
Message Number 16821

>That's "come."
 
Cum on, give Dragonfly a break.
 
Aaarrgh...someone club me with a side of frozen beef.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:41:54
Message Number 16822

If you both really love each other, then a seperation for two or three
months should not jeopardize your relationship.
 
You could also write or call frequently.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:46:30
Message Number 16823

>....President Q--yle?
 
Bart said "Don't worry, the secret service has standing orders to shoot
Quayle if Bush dies."  
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: DEATH FENNEC        
Subject: More Problems. 
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:53:59
Message Number 16824

What is out in California that is not here, other than the west coast
furry crowd.  I'm sure you could get a fairly decent job here, and the
cost of living here is less, and Lisa is here.  Sure, it'd be fun to go 
to California for a little while, but I'd re-consider moving out there 
at this time.  Sure, Sarasota is small, and you may want to escape it,
but going to the other coast is a bit of an extreme move (if you plan on
making it permanent, which from you messahesges it sounds like).
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:58:27
Message Number 16825

Have you found that rhino in your attic yet?  <smirk>
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:33:32
Message Number 16826

>Cook? Uhg... I hate cooking... I should have been born... a man!
     
   Hate ta tell ya this, but men cook, too.  Remind me NEVER to try
cooking eggplant parmesean again!  (While the eggplant parts are
frying, ya gotta make sure there's enough breadcrumbs, and cut up
the mushrooms at the same time.... and make sure the tomato sauce is
coming along nicely. Sheesh!)
                        //Dragonfly//
     
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:36:36
Message Number 16827

>...because some people believe whatever they see on TV... and Enquiring
> Minds want to know...
     
   But... it's in print!  It must be true, right?  They wouldn't print
it if it weren't true, right?
   
   Personally, I find most tabloids boring.  I could care less about
John Candy's sex life.  Except, of course, the Weekly World News; I
adore the headlines.  "Bush Reveals Bigfoot Really Running Country."
"Space Aliens Steal Johnny's Homework." "Granny Eats All Her
Grandchildren."
     
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:42:09
Message Number 16828

>Television influences people's views for the good as well as the bad.
     
   I've heard of a way to really learn how much information comes from
the different forms of the media.  Try this experiment the next three
weeks: The first week, get all of your news about the world from the
T.V. (Any station, any channel) and none from any other source.  The
next, get all your news from the radio.  The final week, just get your
news from the newspaper.
    
   At the end of those three weeks, ask yourself: Where did I get the
most information?
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:45:09
Message Number 16829

>Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place.
     
   Naaah. That's not how it works.  After the guitar picks, strings
starts appearing from mid-air.  Then the guitar body, with no finger-
board.  Then all the other things necessary, except the fingerboard.
When Turtle tries to go out and buy a fingerboard, he'll discover that
there are none for sale.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:38:23
Message Number 16830

>>drop in more often.
  
Drop in is about it. My family life is about as stable as the 
government of the USSR. We have found ourselves heading in two different
directions...literally. Anyway, I'm tired of grieving so I be back,
and it feels pretty good. How you been doing? Found that mega-buck
job yet???? ..........me neither.  hehe
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:40:55
Message Number 16831

  I still love the sticker:
   God is coming....and boy is She pissed!!!
Did that on a sign for our department secretary and the director (former
director that is...hehe) had her take it down. Said it wasn't in good
taste. That was right before he called her in his office to hear him
fart 'cause he didn't want to 'waste it'. A real class act....PTUEEWW!!
        SnakeByte .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:43:29
Message Number 16832

>what does this red button do? 
  
I'm worried about what controls the 'finger' that pushes that 'red 
button'.....very little. Can you see him at the helm for something
like Desert Storm......AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
 
sssssssssssssssshivers.......SnakeByte .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:46:59
Message Number 16833

>False Prophet of the Aardvark....
  
Ahhhhhhhhhh, reminds me of the time my pet weasel told me to get
closer to God by climbing a tree, cutting off the soles of my
shoes and learning to play the flute. Hasn't worked yet but I keep 
trying.
  
SnakeByte .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:49:09
Message Number 16834

Love????? 
    Love isn't what makes the world go 'round.
         Love is what makes the trip worthwhile.
  
I'm one to talk....geeeze. You're asking the wrong person about 
this with my better half, being the better whole somewhere else.
<sob>
                    ssssssssssSnakeByte .  .
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:12:10
Message Number 16835

>I thought...you were saying that the difference between religious
>debates and other types of debates is that religious debates force a
>"leap of faith."
 
No, I was saying that religious debates contain or involve a leap of
faith that is manifestly different from the "faith" involved in a
statement like "If I drop a hammer it'll fall." My dictionary defines
"faith" as "Faith, n. Belief that is not based on proof." Semantic
quibbling, hairsplitting, and existentialist bullshit aside, I think
it's accurate to say the differnce between a logical argument and a
religious argument is that the latter will always involve some sort of
leap of faith that is inherently unprovable and therefore not subject to
rational analysis. Religious discussions can borrow the tools and
techniques of logic, but they are not logical.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:16:29
Message Number 16836

>I should have been born rich... either that, or a man! [Various
>sexist remarks omitted]
 
Ahem! Speaking in behalf of all the members of my sex, since everyone
knows we're all in a massive, secret conspiracy together, I take
exception to that post...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:19:06
Message Number 16837

T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray.
S>Um, not to another smoker...
 
Yeah...if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste
things, don't you? Heh heh.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:25:45
Message Number 16838

>...I wasn't knocking the newscasters od the 6:00 newsteam...
 
Yes, you were. You were knocking "The Media." The Media is Lewis
Grizzard, and the Sarasota Herald-Tribune's reporting team, and the
six o'clock newscaster, and your local movie reviewer, and everyone
else involved in any way with information media. If some poor shmuck
chooses to believe everything he sees on "A Current Affair" or reads in
"The National Enquirer," well, that's not "The media"'s fault, it's
the fault of the damn fool who swallows it all in the first place.
Blaming anyhting on "The Media" or lamenting their impact on "the
rest of society" is just plain silly.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Energized      
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:28:59
Message Number 16839

>Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place.
 
Yeah, and it'll go in the attic with all the other inexplicable
stuff I can't identify...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:31:36
Message Number 16840

>How you been doing?
 
Could be better, could be worse. I'm alive; I suppose that's gotta count
for something.
 
>Found that mega-buck job yet????
 
No, but I've been considering a career move...I could deal drugs, or
pimp, or sell securities...
 
So what's been going on in your life, anyway?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:34:29
Message Number 16841

>...climbing a tree, cutting off the soles of my shoes and learning to
>play the flute.
 
Groovy! Can I try too?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ALL                 
Subject: Now available..
Date & Time: 05/15/91 02:14:59
Message Number 16842

...in the download directory, DEN1.TXT-DEN4.TXT. Four files containing
the first posts from the storyboard. Download 'em. Check 'em out.
Good stuff.
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:05:37
Message Number 16843

>I'm worried about what controls the 'finger' that pushes that 'red
>button....very little.
      
   I still don't rest well, knowing Georgie is in the White House.  He's
still worried that he's perceived as a wimp, so he invades two 
countries.  He's right: he's no longer perceived as a wimp.  Just a 
bully.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:08:06
Message Number 16844

>My pet weasel told me to get closer to God by climbing a tree, cutting
>off the soles of my shoes and learning to play the flute.  Hasn't
>worked yet but I keep trying.
     
   It hasn't worked yet?   Hmmm.... what tunes are you playing on the
flute?  And did you bring your weasel along for the experience?  The
experience works much better if you bring an Aardvark along, but it
should give you a sampling of God in Her glory.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:11:02
Message Number 16845

>Semantic quibbling, hairsplitting, and existentialist bullshit aside,
>I think it's accurate to say the differnce between a logical argument
>and a religious argument ios that the latter will always involve some
>sort of leap of faith that is inherently unprovable and therefore not
>subject to rational analysis.
     
   Turtle, do you accept mathematics as rational?  Do you consider math
to be subject to 'rational analysis'?  ALL mathematics -- even 
arithmetic -- depends on "leaps of faith that are inherently
unprovable."  They're termed axioms, and frequently mathematicians
debate whether axioms should or shouldn't be included.  (Different
schools of thought use different axioms... even down to logic!)
    
    My other argument, that logic is NOT based on the validity of the
presuppositions, but is just a 'mechanism' for creating new statements
from old, has been said before.  
   
   Have you ever talked with a true solipsist, or someone who pretended
to be one?  You can't disprove his/her idea that the world is imaginary
because they won't admit any of your assumptions.  After you've talked
with someone like that, you realize that nearly EVERYTHING you say
depends on 'unprovable assumptions' -- even just a shared world-view.
                        //Dragonfly//
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/15/91 16:17:53
Message Number 16846

Some student at MIT (I think it was MIT) put a Twinkie in a time 
capsule.  It'll still be fresh, no doubt.
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/16/91 00:25:15
Message Number 16847

I've seen that sticker before. Long ago, someone posted this in the
homor echo:
 
God died for your sins... make it worthwhile. I found it to be in 
poor taste.
 
Glad to see ya back.
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: DRAGONFLY           
To: ALL                 
Subject: Random chatter 
Date & Time: 05/16/91 22:20:23
Message Number 16849

   Okay, science fiction fans...
     
   What do y'all think computers will be like in twenty years?  What do
y'all think further miniaturization will do for them?  And what new 
uses for computers can you think of?
    
                           //Dragonfly//
===========

From: MAXIMILION          
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/17/91 01:25:51
Message Number 16850

Well, the problem with that is that good ol' Danny boy is as qualified
for the job as anyone else in this country...As it says in the 
Constitution, the only requirements for becoming president are that
you must be at least 35 years old and a natural born US. Citizen.  He
is "Qualified" to run the country under those two and only those two
requirements.  
 
	                                   -Pete
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:08:03
Message Number 16851

>>what's been going on in your life, anyway?
  
Welllllll, seems as if my better half feels as if she'd be a better
half somewhere else. We've been through some pretty stiff battles
and it appears that we may both loose. We're just kind of
occupying space a little further apart then we used to. Shouldn't
change the world but it has sure upset my 'balance'.....<sigh>
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:11:50
Message Number 16852

>>>>learn to play the flute.....
 
Hate to admitt it but that line actually came from an album from
Fireside Theatre called "How can you be in two places at once when
you're not really anyplace at all" or maybe "Don't crush that dwarf,
hand me the pliers". Can't remember which one. 
 
"How do I get to the airport?"
"You can't get there from here."............ hehe
 
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:14:56
Message Number 16853

>>>just a bully...
 
I believe that the 'bullies' of the world are actually the worst
'wimps' as well. Anyone who thinks that pushing other people/
countries around makes the rest of us hold them in high regard is
not facing reality. Too bad you can't physically pound someone
with your brain, there would be some BIG changes in this world.
.......Where IS my pocket protector anyway????  hehe
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:18:21
Message Number 16854

>>>what tunes....
 
Well I start in with some Wayne Newton and slowly evolve into
some Stairway to Heaven while softly sing the theme to Gilligan's
Island in pig latin.....Why? Isn't that what I'm supposed to
be playing????? Don't tell me all the episodes with Maryann and
the Skipper were for nothing......geeeeeze
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:21:40
Message Number 16855

   I still love the FarSide that has a game show with God as the
challenger and the host is saying "That's right, another 100 points 
for God and our challenger has yet to score" and God's score is
like 120,500 or something like that. That Gary Larson....what a scream.
  
WYSIWYG...unfortunately
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: God's Daughter?
Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:46:29
Message Number 16856

Hahahaha....especially GOD! 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:47:17
Message Number 16857

No, "proven wrong" is not when a counterexample is found.  Newton's
laws ARE correct (which is why they're still taught!) in local
timespace. There's nothing "wrong" with them in that context: 
Relativity just jumped to another context. It's much like saying
the temperature here is cool (I'm inside), while someone else says
"I just saw the weather report: the temperature is 93!")
Re "useful", I know you attempted to avoid absolutes, but useful as
a concept is still "absolute", in the sense that it is interpreted
to mean "absolutely of use"....in fact, "useful" is a poor choice of
concepts re theories, because it has the same problems as you find in
Newton's Laws: they are true, but only for particular contexts. Same
with "useful". And worse, "useful" is a subjective term (tho most
people don't use it that way). What is useful to one person (or one
theorist) is NOT useful to another. A theory does not have inherent
usefulness: people may attempt to find use for one, and in certain
circumstances may be useful (but in others may be destructive!)...
 ---Hmmm....am I being wordy and obfuscative?? I'm jes' waking up----
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:56:23
Message Number 16858

Hm, don't like cooking or housework: what dO you like to do to spend
the rest of your years???
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:57:17
Message Number 16859

Ahh, don't be too cynical, now! To me, "media", tho i guess it must
include "all" media, is most typically network media/news. I have a
feeling that (relatively speaking), it's really not so bad...
And what could take its place?? 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Media          
Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:00:01
Message Number 16860

Ahhhh....re last message, "Nevverr Mind"... :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Relationships  
Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:02:30
Message Number 16861

I don't think I'm asking the wrong person about love: your message
touches on it pretty well (as far as I can see)....I have a 
suspicion that love is better experienced than talked about, anyway. :)
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: ALL                 
Subject: Humble Request 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:04:41
Message Number 16862

For a written work, I need to find out the following: any assistance
would be greatly appreciated:
  1 - About how many Earth years does it take for the galaxy to revolve
      one time on its axis? (I read it years ago, but can't find it now)
  2 - I need to know a couple of "common" Gaelic names (of people): 
      something equivalent to our "John Smith" or "James Jones"
 
 Thanks for your consideration (and possible answers!)  :)   -chas.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:07:35
Message Number 16863

Yo, I'd like to have the next picnick soon (about 3 weeks): any par-
ticular Saturday you think would be a good choice? Please ask around,
and let me know: thanks!!
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:33:19
Message Number 16864

So you're aFar Side fan too, eh? I really enjoy that comic. I wonder 
how Gary Larson things up some of that syuff.
t^ (oops!)
 
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: RAT                 
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: skipping lines 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:07:30
Message Number 16867

Are you trying to say that I just wrote a message trying to skip lines
and using the delete key and that didn't work?  
 
Damn.
===========

From: RAT                 
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: spelling       
Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:09:23
Message Number 16868

s>  To skip a line... hit return like this
    then hit your space bar
 
    like I did one line 3.... then return.
 
Oh no! What ever happened to the Saavik Speller?  I think you meant
on line 3.
You better replace the batteries in your spell checker!
===========

From: RAT                 
To: RAT                 
Subject: skipping lines 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:13:16
Message Number 16869

Hey rat!  Are you having fun talking to yourself? Yeah, I really am.
Did you just delete that stupid message you wrote and presses delete
a lot?  Of coarse!  This is getting really boring so I'm going to go.
Ok. Bye .  Bye.
===========

From: RAT                 
To: RAT                 
Subject: skipping lines 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:15:43
Message Number 16870

I think that talking to yourself is kinda stupid.  And your loosing
friends really fast!  I don't want to be your friend anymore.  Jerk.
===========

From: RAT                 
To: ALL                 
Subject: hi             
Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:17:24
Message Number 16871

Hey everone!  My dog, Bear, wants to say hi! Here he is!
t655555e5$">RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRED/
Gf/./}ew`\
dsxl;/sx
./fgcl;

===========

From: MAXIMILION          
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Humble Request 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 14:30:25
Message Number 16872

     We Well, it depends where in the galaxy you are...  Because the
outer sections of the galaxy revlove slower than the inner section,
it is different.  Well, for the earth, it takes about 250 million
years for one revolution.   Did I get too technical? Nah..I coulda
said stuff like Differential Rotation and Density Wave Theory...
 
                                     -Pete
===========

From: THE GRUNT           
To: SAAVIK              
Subject: Star Trek Quote
Date & Time: 05/18/91 21:19:35
Message Number 16873

That's "One Damn Minute Admiral."
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ALL                 
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/18/91 22:28:51
Message Number 16874

 Jeez... first I get super-busy and then when I try to log on for one 
little call about a week ago I find out my modem has kaput machen
 Oh well - I wuz gonna get a new 9600 but decided to operate on
 that I had first.  Hah!  I beat the sucker into submission and
is functioning again!  Brutality wins again!
Steve - I ain't been able to catch you clowns in two weeks can
 is probably the pits too!)  I lost yer phone number so I can't call
e whole friggin world is coming apart at the seams and and and 
ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH --- AAIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!
Ahhh primal scream therapy - such good stuff.  Anyway I'm back and I'll
have to get back into the swing here.  
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ALL                 
Subject: sale stuff     
Date & Time: 05/18/91 22:35:54
Message Number 16875

I'm considering selling the following items.
Apple II+ computer with:
    Videx UltraTerm video card (the ultimate)
    128K RAM card, printer card, Super Serial card 
    2 RANA 40 track drives, Keytronics keyboard
    PCPI CP/M card with 64K RAM
    Prometheus internal 1200 modem 
    Joystick, paddles, NMI card for software protection etc etc. 
    > 400 disks of software. 
12 Mhz XT clone with 20 meg drive, CGA card.
Osborne 1 computer with software & manuals.  Works!
Software & manuals for Osborne Executive computer.
Altair 8080b computer - One of the first personal computers!
In pieces - but it's all there plus some expansion cards.
Vectrex vector graphics arcdae game with many cartridges.  This 
was unique in that it has its' own monitor & sound system.
Make offer on all or part of this stuff.  Will consider trades like
MIDI hardware or software (esp for IBM) or other musical stuff.
You can reach me at 355-9761 extension 2058.  
leave a message if I don't happen to be there.
                                               Jon Smith
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:17:41
Message Number 16876

Mathmatical axioms do not share any significant relationship to
religious faith because even though no sufficiently complex mathmatical
system is entirely provable, the system as a whole (a) is self-
consistent and (b) the axioms have consequences which are observable
and provable. Religious models can sometimes approach condition (a)
but not condition (b). This is the sort of semantic hairsplitting I
was talking about: no matter how you slice it, there is still a
quantifiable, qualitative difference between a leap of fath of a
religious nature and a 'leap of faith' that is not religious. Belief in
God is fundamentally a leap of faith that by its nature cannot be proven
or disproven in any way whatsoever. This belief is quite different in
kind from acceptance of a mathematic axiom.
 
Your second point falls into the 'existentialist bullshit' category.
Sure, you can argue that nothing outside yourself exists until Hell
freezes over, but it doesn't get you anywhere; if your 'imaginary' next-
door neighbor throws an 'imaginary' brick at your 'imaginary' head with
sufficient velocity, I guarantee you'll perceive 'imaginary' pain.
What's more, the phenomenon is repeatable (if he does it again you'll
still percieve the same imaginary pain) and verifiable (all your
imaginary neighbors will agree that they are all perceiving you lying
in a pool of your own blood). Therefore, all such arguments are irrele-
vant; the universe behaves as though it were /not/ imaginary, so
believing that it is is pointless.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: KNIGHT OWL          
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:27:24
Message Number 16877

>God died for your sins... make it worthwhile.
 
The version of that I've heard is "God died for our sins. Dare we there-
fore make His sacrifice meaningless by not committing them?" My favorite
bumper sticker along those lines was created by a friend of mine some
time back, though: "God had /better/ exist; we pay Him enough to!"
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:30:00
Message Number 16878

>Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain...
 
Yeah, that'd be nice. It's too soft and squishy, though. *sigh*
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Humble Request 
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:32:33
Message Number 16879

>...I need to find out the following: ...
 
That's weird. Why? (I'm embarassed to admit, I just realized I don't
have a single book anywhere in this apartment that'll answer either
question...awwqk!)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: picnick        
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:39:08
Message Number 16880

Any Saturday is fine with me; I'll see what's groovy (to coin a
phrase) with other people is well. It's highly unlikely that the
Tampa contingent will be down for a while yet, though...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: back...        
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:41:53
Message Number 16881

>ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! [Etc]
 
So, how the hell are you? :)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: sale stuff     
Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:43:00
Message Number 16882

You're selling an /Altair/?? You gotta be shittin' me!! I've been into
computers almost from the start and I ain't even /seen/ one of them
in real life...I thought I was running a museum over here! Yikes...
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: RAT                 
Subject: skipping lines 
Date & Time: 05/19/91 06:58:57
Message Number 16884

Yes. One more time... When you get to the next line, hit the SPACE bar, 
then RETURN. like this
 
OK?
L8R!
Knight Owl
===========

From: KNIGHT OWL          
To: TURTLE              
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/19/91 07:04:42
Message Number 16885

T>.... 'God had /better/ exist; we pay him enough to!'
 
Hehehehehe........
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Birth Control  
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:25:15
Message Number 16886

RF>....someone club me with a side of frozen beef. 
 
<WHACK!!!> Hehe, nice to "meat" you, Rufus.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Pres. Quayle   
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:26:54
Message Number 16887

RF> "Don't worry, the secret service has standing orders to shoot Quayle
     if Bush dies." 
 
A bullet in the bird is worth two in the Bush????? *Oh, Gawd* Did I 
really say that????? 
 
They'd better take a good look at the third in line before they go 
Quayle hunting.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:31:09
Message Number 16888

DF> Hate ta tell ya this, but men cook, too. 
 
Ok, I'll settle for being rich then.... I'd only have to cook if I want
to... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:32:43
Message Number 16889

I love reading the highlights on the front of the Tabloids..... 
..... how else on ya gonna keep up with where Elvis really is now... 
UH, let's see, at last count, he was flipping hamburgers in some small 
town at a Burger King and he planned to sing at the Super Bowl.... 
.... hmmm, I guess he stepped aside for Whitney Houston though.. You 
KNOW what a gentleman he is... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: DRAGONFLY           
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:35:37
Message Number 16890

DF>(suggesting listening to the TV, the Radio, and the Newspaper and 
   comparing)
 
Well, the radio would lose big time... the news you get there is sketchy
at best.... CNN tends to get stuck on a continuing subject and pretty 
much fast forward through anything else... I'd have to say it would be 
the newspaper...... but I don't like getting that damned ink all over 
my hands...(that was a joke).. I actually prefer CNN but I think the 
Newspaper probably would tell you more "in depth". 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Perpet. Respons
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:43:18
Message Number 16891

Yes, Yes, Yes.... I know my comment about men NOT cooking was sexist. 
It was meant to be sexist..... I was merely taking a "female" hostility
out on that message... that's why I said, No offence...... You are all 
hereby excluded from /that/ post. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:45:01
Message Number 16892

T>...if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste 
     things.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:45:40
Message Number 16893

Continuation of that last message, I hit save by error.... 
 
Actually, having smoked On and Off for several years... I really didn't 
notice any difference... I can still taste quite well... but I have 
seen smokers who pour salt and pepper on everything they eat to enhance 
the taste.... but I'm not one of them. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:47:58
Message Number 16894

T> You were knocking "The Media"
 
Well, Exxxxcuuuuuuuuse me!!!!!! I wasn't, really I wasn't.... I may have
said Media but I didn't use the word correctly.... I didn't mean 
The News people (the reputable news people) Honest Honest.... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: 100 years old  
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:52:08
Message Number 16895

I had a box of Twinkies here for my kids once.... but the ants got into 
them, so I tried to feed them to the dogs.... they took one sniff and 
backed away like it was poison...... hmmm, maybe they read the page long
ingrediant label....... 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:57:52
Message Number 16896

SB> ....I start in with some Wayne Newton and slowly evolve into 
    some Stairway to Heaven while softly sing the theme to Gilliigan's 
    Island in pig latin.... 
 
Ah.... You left out a song, that's all... you forgot the theme to the 
Brady Bunch..... right between Stairway and Gilligan.... if you skip 
that one..... you're wasting your time. 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/19/91 10:00:59
Message Number 16897

CD> Hm, don't like cooking or housework: What dO you like to do to 
    spend the rest of your years??? 
 
I work for a living.... all day... then I come home and usually end up 
calling work on my modem and doing it some more... plus I have two kids 
and a messy husband..... and in my spare time (Hah!) I like to BBS and 
I raise Cockatiels..... (pant pant pant) 
===========

From: SAAVIK              
To: CHARLES DITTELL     
Subject: beliefs        
Date & Time: 05/19/91 10:03:25
Message Number 16898

I didn't mean the media as in the news... I used the word in the wrong 
context.... 
             Will I ever live this down? 
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: MAXIMILION          
Subject: Humble Request 
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:14:58
Message Number 16899

Many thanks! That's just what I needed!
(Re questions, yes, the the outer portions revolve more slowly - current
theories - well, some of them - attribute most of that to "dark matter")
 
Thanks again - chas.
===========

From: CHARLES DITTELL     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:18:52
Message Number 16900

Much truth here: tho I'm not sure that belief in God _by it's very
nature_ is unprovable. There could be a scenario where God
_proves_ him/her-self -- maybe on Channel 4 (Public Access Channel)..:)
===========

