
83950 11-DEC 12:44 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83925)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: AJMLFCO

What you are asking for would require on the order of man YEARS to accomplish.
Considering that all MM/1 developers are single person operations, I seriously
doubt if anyone of them would be willing to tackle such a large project.
OTOH, if some DOES, you are right, it WILL be a killer product!! One which *I*
certainly would purchase!

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83954 11-DEC 15:46 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83950)
     From: NIMITZ       To: COLORSYSTEMS


Zack, that is one reason that I suggested that some MM/1 developers should
sell their development packages commercially, to save those man hours and
years.  It is also the reason I suggest that the OS9 Standards organization
sponsor development teams to bring other systems standards to OS9 in library
and subroutine form.   These
applications are possible, in timely fashion if we work together where possible.

            David

-*-

83958 11-DEC 16:42 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83954)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: NIMITZ

 > Zack, that is one reason that I suggested that some MM/1 developers
 > should sell their development packages commercially, to save those man
 > hours and years.

What do you mean by "development package"?

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

83961 11-DEC 18:51 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83958)
     From: NIMITZ       To: COLORSYSTEMS

libraries of commonly used subroutines, in this context.

x

-*-

83993 12-DEC 19:26 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83358)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: MREGC (NR)

> ... then that other process would also have to be written by the
> same programmer as the main program, since the couldn't include and use
> someone else's text editor or x/y/z protocol ...

To the contrary!  I just discovered today, for example, that InfoExpress
uses my own XYDown for file transfers.  Since XYDown was public domain,
anyone can include it with their programs.  There are many useful programs
that are either public domain (i.e., you can do anything you wish with it),
or have modest copying restrictions (you can use/distribute as long as you
obey the original author's restrictions, which typically require giving
credit to the original author and/or including the source code for the
program you copied).  What this means is that people CAN and SHOULD use
already-built programs when creating their own new systems.  The problem
is really one of finding what software already exists.

                            - Tim

-*-

84034 14-DEC 01:21 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83993)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

Tim,

 > To the contrary!  I just discovered today, for example, that InfoExpress
 > uses my own XYDown for file transfers.  Since XYDown was public domain,

There is a rare version of XYDown that IX likes to use... the one you
posted here in the database doesn't seem to get along with IX.



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

84056 15-DEC 02:24 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83935)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: EDELMAR

]Tell me more about Sculptor.  I can only ask my
questions from the framework of my own experience,
so bear with me here.  I have used Informix a bit.
It has a couple of lines across the top of the
screen with options.  I can't remember for sure
but it seems there was a "ace" report writer for
writing simple quick reports.  More involved
quiries were done with SQL programs which had to
be created with an editor.  Other options were
a screen generator, etc.   All in all, pretty
"stone age".  I was able to impress my friends
because I could create simple SQL routines using
a text editor.  Another package I have used is
Dbase III+ ( haven't upgraded to IV yet).  The
user interface to this was a lot easier because it had
a menuing interface so I could pick options,
create databases, short reports, browse,
append, edit, etc. without using a text editor.
Dbase III+ is trailing edge technology, but it
works and is friendlier than the version of
Informix I saw.

A modern database system should be graphical.

One should be able to create forms, input screens,
and such through the GUI.  The database should be able
to create and use various windows as need for these purposes.

So, where does Sculptor fall into all of these
ramblings?

Allen

-*-

84058 15-DEC 02:43 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Production (Re: Msg 83950)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: COLORSYSTEMS (NR)

You are right if all you consider is the MM/1 or
the computer I am using, or others in the personal
market.  Fortunately, or unfortunately, they amount
all together to 1% of OS-9 usage.  On the other hand,
it might be worthwhile developing for G-Windows, which is
used on all kinds of systems.  A database might be
a real useful addition to a system running ControlCalc
as a reporting and data reduction tool for a
data aquisition system.  If it also is useful
for us personal users, so be it.

If the OS-9 users group included more commercial
and industrial users, they might be able to set
me straight on this.

Allen

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83951 11-DEC 13:15 Users Group
     RE: Standards, UG et al (Re: Msg 83914)
     From: JEJONES      To: EDELMAR

 > Totally different subject - do you know if Ultra C will compile the GNU
 > code or must the GNU compiler be used?  They're both supposed to be
 > ANSII compliant.

gcc supports various extensions to ANSI C that are, as the Pope might say,
sui generis.  If your code makes it through gcc compiled with the -pedantic
option, though, I would expect it to compile with Ultra C.

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not necessarily
those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83952 11-DEC 14:04 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83945)
     From: MITHELEN     To: BOISY

Don't forget "v7make" from TOP, Tim Keintzle's make (both 6809 and 68k)
and GNU Make. Oh, and there is 1 or two more (I know I ported one from Fred
Fish's Amiga libraries to the CoCo)

You are definately right about header files... I think the problem is even
WORSE under OSK, since you have people mixing Blarslib, TOP, and EFFO headers
into the standard MW headers... What a mess (And I am even guilty of this,
which I am now finally correcting)
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83965 11-DEC 22:52 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83945)
     From: JEJONES      To: BOISY

 > In addition, there is a problem with standard header files.  This
 > problem exists solely on OS-9/6809 systems.  When I download a
 > software package from a BBS and want to compile it, I find myself
 > constantly having to twiddle with my header files in order to
 > have TRUE and FALSE defined.  Or, the programmer will pull in
 > header files that aren't even on my system.  I think this has
 > resulted from confusion using the Kreider headers vs. the
 > MW headers.  Still, there's confusion even on Kreider's stuff.

Be careful here.  The discrepancy arises from Carl's having added
stuff to stdio.h that doesn't belong there, i.e. #defines for TRUE
and FALSE.  Those aren't part of any standard; however much one might
think that C could benefit from a Boolean type, C doesn't have one.
If we want to make header files closer to ANSI, then TRUE and FALSE
do *not* belong in them.  (It's not clear how much a typedef for
void would help, because of course, an ANSI compiler will recognize
void without having to #include any header file to get a typedef.)

 > How many different MAKE programs for OS-9 exist?  I know of MW's make,
 > Poly MAKE (which MW sells) and no more.

There are various PD or at least freely copyable make programs; they
tend to emulate Unix make.

Opinions herein are those of their respective authors, and not
necessarily those of any organization.
*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83968 12-DEC 00:27 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83952)
     From: WA2EGP       To: MITHELEN

Do you ever get a little annoyed when you try to use the makefile and the
author has put his Blarslib (for example) in a different place than you did?
Maybe a list of "suggested" locations for these librarys and such would be a
help for the new comers into os9/osk?  Even if a textfile which told where
everything should be for the makefile to work correctly without twiddling
with it.  Just a thought.

-*-

83971 12-DEC 01:30 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83968)
     From: MITHELEN     To: WA2EGP

What I would recomend to people that jsut HAVE to use these extra libs like
blars lib, or unixlib, or whatever... is to make the library a subdir
of the /dd/LIB tree, and the headers a subdir of the /dd/DEFS tree.
That way, the original stuff is always there, and you don't have all this other
stuff (which often doesn't get along well with eachother) cluttering up
the standard directories... Course, what I'm trying to do now is not use any
of these other libraries, and to write my own version of "unix" functions
when I need them, and then I keep them in a source library, which I can pull
out to the specific directory of the program I am working on porting, and
include all extra stuff for compileing under os9 in a "os9.c" source
file... Gesh.. did any of that make sence? example... if I really gotta/haveta
use ioctl() and stat(), I include the "ioctl.c" and "stat.c" from my
//dd/SRC/C/UNIX source library into a "os9.c" file for the program
I am working on.... That what... when some when someone decides that don't
trust my compiler, and want to compile it on their own system, they have
everything they need.
--

 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83979 12-DEC 08:17 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83945)
     From: EDELMAR      To: BOISY


 Boisy,

 > By coding techniques, I meant using #define's that are already agreed
 > upon when coding for multiple machines and platforms.  MW already
 > has a number of these predefined in Ultra C, such as:  ....

 OK, see what you mean.  As far as OSK and OS-9000 are concerned, the
 only problem is that many here don't have Ultra-C and aren't aware of
 MW's definitions.  I think most, if not all, of the industrial market
 is switching to Ultra-C and so are aware of the '#defines'.  It would be
 redundant for the UG to endorse it as a standard but the UG can place
 information of this type in the library (or some other suitable
 repository) and let the membership know of its availability.  There may
 be a need for additional #defines but wouldn't most of these come from
 other OSs when porting stuff over?  And, these would be mostly applicable
 to PD stuff.

 > In addition, there is a problem with standard header files.  This
 > problem exists solely on OS-9/6809 systems.  ....

 The UG is committed to supporting the 6809 and there is a V-P with that
 responsibility.  My initial thoughts are that these problems fall in
 his baliwick.  I'm sure he'd appreciate input for upward compatibility.
 You mentioned the Kreider files.  I suspect we'll have to be careful how
 these are re-engineered - probably be wise to bring Carl into the act.
 I understand he was quite upset when people altered 'ar'.

 > How many different MAKE programs for OS-9 exist?

 There are at least 2 others I'm aware of but I haven't used them - I
 stick to MW's make.  Since everyone with OSK will at least have the
 standard MW make, use that for the tutorial.  I think the other 'makes'
 are essentially extensions of MW's anyway.  If the 6809 'make' is
 different, you might want to point out the differences.

 Ed

-*-

83998 12-DEC 23:42 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83971)
     From: WA2EGP       To: MITHELEN

Now that makes sense (as much as I could understand of it in a quick read).
I have blarslib in root and under lib.  I've run into a makefile which uses
h uses
either.....ooops  should read makefiles that look in either place.  I really
think that some type of text file should accompany to-be-compiled programs
alerting people to what is expected and where it is expected.  That is if
there is no standard "place" for these files.  If there is (and I'd guess
that would be considered a standard), maybe this info should be spread
around, especially for the beginners and those of us (like me) who are not
really programmers but who like to dabble occasionally.  This would make
it easier.  There is probably suggestions of this throughout the literature
but who reads manuals (grin).

-*-

84021 13-DEC 22:09 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83968)
     From: WOLFDEN      To: WA2EGP

> 83968 12-DEC 00:27 Users Group
>      RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 83952)
>      From: WA2EGP       To: MITHELEN
>
> Do you ever get a little annoyed when you try to use the makefile and the
> author has put his Blarslib (for example) in a different place than you did?
> Maybe a list of "suggested" locations for these librarys and such would be a
> help for the new comers into os9/osk?  Even if a textfile which told where
> everything should be for the makefile to work correctly without twiddling
> with it.  Just a thought.

I thought the "suggested" locations for all header files was the /dd/defs
directory and library files in the /dd/lib directory, at least that's the
way my C disks were set up by Tandy/Microware.

Jim

-*-

84025 13-DEC 23:26 Users Group
     RE: Standards, et al (Re: Msg 84021)
     From: WA2EGP       To: WOLFDEN (NR)

Welp, I've seen some "things" that made me "grrrrr" a little.  Yes, those
go where you mentioned but I've seen additional definitions "hiding" in various
places.  I've seen gnu stuff thought to be hiding (from the makefiles) in a
directory called gnu, in defs and in a directory called gnudefs in defs.
This can be almost as frustrating as downloading a file into an OSK machine
only to find it is for a CoCo 3 (or the other way around) because it never
said which machine in the description.  Maybe this is not a "standard" as such,
but maybe suggestions where new files should go so nobody has to go diddling
with the makefile because the author has his system set up differently.
It would certainly make it easier for someone relatively new to OS9.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83953 11-DEC 14:52 General Information
     Tue Conference
     From: MRUPGRADE    To: ALL

      Subj: CoCo Conference
  I would like to ask our members (Mid Iowa & Country CoCo) to at
least drop in at some point.  Though I don't know the Delphi handle of
each; there are appx 20 - 25 UPGRADE magazine readers on the SIG.
This would be a help to "all", in getting the conference off and
rolling.
  The subject matter being the CoCo.  Which is pretty broad based in
itself; should be of interest to all.  Who are of course invited to
sit by and pick up ideas,, throwing their two cents worth (in some
cases a full nickle).
   The time is schedualed to be a happy medium giving concideration to
coastal areas.
   10:30 PM East coast    9:30 Central    7:30 West coast

  As they say in the southern time zone,,,
  see y'all there now,, he'ah
                                 Terry Simons

-*-

83988 12-DEC 17:32 General Information
     RE: Tue Conference (Re: Msg 83953)
     From: DAVIDAH      To: MRUPGRADE

Oh, yeah?
 Then how I was kicked out?


-*-

84023 13-DEC 22:58 General Information
     RE: Tue Conference (Re: Msg 83988)
     From: MRUPGRADE    To: DAVIDAH

  I have no idea what oyu are talking about?
  Please leav e me E-MAil?
  Til then,,, Terry Simons

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83955 11-DEC 15:47 General Information
     RE: Booster (Re: Msg 83944)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: RICKMAC

Hi Rick--I have booster.tup and native.tup in my cmds along with tuneup. If
I do an ident of booster.tup and native.tup it tells me that the header is
wrong. I'll try the -h option and see what I can do. Thanks Rick! <Phil>

-*-

83970 12-DEC 01:16 General Information
     RE: Booster (Re: Msg 83955)
     From: MITHELEN     To: PHILSCHERER

The ".tup" files are kinda like "ipatch" files that the "tuneup" program
uses to make the patches to the appropiate modules... They should
reside in a working data directory for (I kept them in /dd/MODULES) I don't
have my CoCo any more, but, I believe the syntax/procedure you want to use
is to:
tagtrack /d0 34 kernel       (not quite sure if I got that syntax right, but
                              /d0 would be the drive with the bootdisk to Boost
                              34 is the track you want to mark, and "kernel" is
                              just a filename you give the marked area)

tuneup native.tup /d0/os9boot /d0/kernel
                             ( This applies the native mode patch to the boot
                               file and kernel)
tuneup booster.tup /d0/os9boot /d0/kernel
                             ( this applies the rest of the 6309 patches)

That should do the trick. (assumeing I got all that syntax correct from memory)
I never had good luck with doing the patches "in memory" with the -m switch
but doing them to disk always worked fine, and once you know the syntax, the
procedure is painless (gee, you could even make a script file to do it)
Oh, if you also want to patch "grfdrv" include "/dd/cmds/grfdrv" in the
second tuneup command line, between the "os9boot" and "kernel" parameters.
--

 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83978 12-DEC 08:14 General Information
     RE: Booster (Re: Msg 83970)
     From: PHILSCHERER  To: MITHELEN

Hi Paul--Thanks for the reply--nothing like this was on the disk. <Phil>

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83956 11-DEC 15:50 General Information
     ghostscript
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: ALL

I recently installed ghostscript on my 3 meg mm1 and cannot get it to
work. I have the executable /h0/cmds, made a "GS_LIB" directory and
put the ugly.fnt and other support modules in it and set the environment
variable to tell ghostscript that this was the GS_LIB directory. When I go
"gs golfer.ps" to display or print an example ps page, I see a blank
screen with the piece of paper but nothing on the paper. If I try to
print the file I get an error message sent to the printer indicating
bad output file format. I do have /dd/TMP available to ghostscript but
nothing is written to that directory. Any thoughts?
 --Bests,
 ---TedJaeger

-*-

83960 11-DEC 18:50 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83956)
     From: NIMITZ       To: TEDJAEGER

try 'merging' the file to the printer.

also, try checking /r0.  If the environment variable TMPDIR is set to /r0 ,
your files will end up there.

        David

-*-

83973 12-DEC 03:54 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83956)
     From: JEJONES      To: TEDJAEGER

Are you remembering to do -sOUTPUTFILE=/p?

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

83981 12-DEC 10:39 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83956)
     From: JOHNREED     To: TEDJAEGER

 > I recently installed ghostscript on my 3 meg mm1 and cannot get it to
 > work. I have the executable /h0/cmds, made a "GS_LIB" directory and
 > put the ugly.fnt and other support modules in it and set the environment
 > variable to tell ghostscript that this was the GS_LIB directory. When I go
 > "gs golfer.ps" to display or print an example ps page, I see a blank
 > screen with the piece of paper but nothing on the paper. If I try to
 > print the file I get an error message sent to the printer indicating
 > bad output file format. I do have /dd/TMP available to ghostscript but
 > nothing is written to that directory. Any thoughts?
 >  --Bests,
 >  ---TedJaeger
 >

Ted, I see you have a couple good suggestions in the replies already
posted.  Here are a couple more.

I am assuming here that you have version 2.6.1

1. The really neat graphics demos, like "tiger.ps" and "golfer.ps"
will cause my machine to crash if I am using anything newer than
kwindows version 38 with the gs "kwindows" driver.  To see these
demos on the screen, you can either boot with kwindows 38, or
use my old "crude but effective" "kwlo" driver. (like this)

gs -sDEVICE=kwlo -sOUTPUTFILE=/nil golfer.ps

Note that this problem only affects those Postscript files that
use a lot of graphics and cause a lot of buffer get/putting.
Text files come out fine.

2. Note that gs looks for environment "TEMP" (which is NOT the
same as "TMP".  Also, the TEMP entry must have the slash after
it.  --

setenv TEMP /dd/tmp/

not

setenv TEMP /dd/tmp

if you leave off the slash at the end, you will find the output
files in your home/root directory with names starting with your
intdended directory name (tmpgsxxxxx) in the above example.

3. With the kwindows driver, when you see that blank page
display, switch back to the window you started gs from and
see if it is trying to tell you something -- it may be
complaining about something that it can't find.


4. Both my printers, Epson Action Printer 5000 and a DeskJet 500
go nuts if I don't zero just about everything in the printer
descriptor before printing directly from the command line.
(This is not necessary if you "merge" the output file to your
printer later).

           John R. Wainwright

 <<CIS -- 72517,676>> <<DELPHI -- JOHNREED>>

 *********** InfoXpress ************

-*-

83983 12-DEC 12:15 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83981)
     From: MITHELEN     To: JOHNREED

I'mm I've had no problems using the gs 2.6.1 hi res KWindows driver with
windio #48.
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

83989 12-DEC 17:32 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83981)
     From: TEDJAEGER    To: JOHNREED

Thanks John, I'll try those things you suggest. I did have my temp variable
wrong so maybe that will fix it.
 --Bests,
----TedJaeger

-*-

84012 13-DEC 20:31 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 83983)
     From: JOHNREED     To: MITHELEN

 > I'mm I've had no problems using the gs 2.6.1 hi res KWindows driver with
 > windio #48.
 > --
 >  Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group

I get about halfway through the "tiger.ps" demo and it takes
the machine down every time.  (Same story with windio 50 with
my 68340) - did you try the tiger and golfer demos?


           John R. Wainwright

 <<CIS -- 72517,676>> <<DELPHI -- JOHNREED>>

 *********** InfoXpress ************

-*-

84017 13-DEC 20:57 General Information
     RE: ghostscript (Re: Msg 84012)
     From: MITHELEN     To: JOHNREED

Um... No... Only the Free6809 schematic, and the Cat's Meow 2 Cover page.

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83957 11-DEC 16:27 General Information
     RE: Mail Messages (Re: Msg 83917)
     From: GREGL        To: LUCKYONE (NR)

You can fix the problem by going into DMAIL (note the leading letter D)
from the OS9> prompt, then SetMail. When asked for the actual number of
waiting messages, set it what's shown minus one.

        -- Greg

-*-

83962 11-DEC 19:50 General Information
     RE: Mail Messages (Re: Msg 83917)
     From: RICKLT       To: LUCKYONE (NR)

Howard, all you have to do is enter email and use the setmail command, for
example at the os9 sig prompt type email and <enter>, at the email prompt
 type the setmail command and reset your mail count to the correct value.
 Hope this helps!  Rick

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83959 11-DEC 17:54 General Information
     Parallel Port HD
     From: TONYREED     To: ALL

I've been away from the Forum for a bit, so if this has been
discussed already, please direct me to the thread.

I saw this morning on Computer Chronicles a "pocket sized" hard
drive that supposedly connects to any computer via the
parallel port.  Does that mean the parallel port in my Disto
3-in-1 board?  I know I'd need a driver for it, but is it
a physical possibility?

Thanks,
Tony

-*-

83977 12-DEC 07:53 General Information
     RE: Parallel Port HD (Re: Msg 83959)
     From: ALWAGNER     To: TONYREED


     There  is  a  recent  thread  on a Colorado tape backup system that uses a
parallel port.  You may want to follow that one as the basic  connect  problems
should  be similar if not the same.  It starts with message 83797.  The summary
is that you would need a  bi-directional  parallel  port,  which  it  has  been
speculated  that  the  Disto  3-in-1 board may possess.  Once having establihed
that you have the required port type, then you have to find or write (the  more
likely  route)  a  driver for it.  There also was another thread on hard drives
that I think had something in it about parallel ports,  but  I  can't  seem  to
locate it just now.


                                         AlWagner

-*-

83996 12-DEC 22:40 General Information
     RE: Parallel Port HD (Re: Msg 83977)
     From: TONYREED     To: ALWAGNER (NR)

Thanks, Al:

I'll look into the thread you mention.  I could also
'phone Tony Distefano and ask him what he thinks.  Would be nice
to be able to plug a hard drive into the 3-in-1 like that.

-- Tony

-*-

84004 13-DEC 06:28 General Information
     RE: Parallel Port HD (Re: Msg 83959)
     From: LMCCLURE     To: TONYREED


Yes, technically, with a driver, a parallel port hard drive
intended for a PC should work on the Disto 3-in-1 parallel
port.

However, writing that driver might be much more difficult than
you think. Given that a 'standard' CoCo hard drive system could
be put together for the price of many of these PC parallel port
drives, there would not seem to be much call for such a driver.

A driver for a parallel port tape back-up, however, would be quite
another story. This due to the fact the same drive could be shared
with a PC (unlike fixed media like a hard drive), and there do not
seem to be any ready tape backup solutions for the CoCo.


-*-

84022 13-DEC 22:52 General Information
     RE: Parallel Port HD (Re: Msg 84004)
     From: TONYREED     To: LMCCLURE


 >However, writing that driver might be much more difficult than
 >you think. Given that a 'standard' CoCo hard drive system could
 >be put together for the price of many of these PC parallel port
 >drives, there would not seem to be much call for such a driver.

That's very true.  I guess I was taken in by how slick the little
portable hard drive looked!

And the price of 20 and 40 meg hard drives seems to be about
$1.00/meg (and that's in Canadian dollars -- about 75 cents in
yanqui dollah...

-- Tony

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83963 11-DEC 21:54 General Information
     RE: Hi (Re: Msg 83930)
     From: ROYBUR       To: DGANTZ

 using a text editor, you could include whatever message parts you'd like.
 VED, UMACS, (even) EDIT or EDT, or something from the database should all
 work ok if you're using os9; if using DECB, then something like TELEWRITER
 or even AUTOTERM's buffer (which has a limited but adequate-for-this-purpose
 editing capability) would work. if osk, then i'd best mention WRITERIGHT.
 aw, you get the idea; any text editor or word-processor. in the latter case,
 you shouldn't use any "special" features like underline, bold, italics,
 highlighting or whatever.
 sorry to get so long-winded; just wanted to add a little that i left out
 last night! 8*)............roy

-*-

83967 11-DEC 23:07 General Information
     RE: Hi (Re: Msg 83929)
     From: WOAY         To: DGANTZ

I didn't mean to miss-lead there. I am aware of the 'mail' utils others
are useing, and just wanted to call it to your attention I guess. I don't
use any of them myself, more because it seems I manage to keep busy with
ts most of the time, and entering into a real, answer every
message mode just isn't in the long term pix. But I do tend to jump in
even if not asked if something goes by here on the forum that I've had
experience with and could possibly offer a bit of help. Thats what happened
here because I wasn't as familiar with your handle as some here.. Sort of
like volenteering to show someone how to get there when all I really was
was eavesdropping!  Cheers Dave, Gene

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83964 11-DEC 22:07 General Information
     rs-232 cabling
     From: ROYBUR       To: EDELMAR

 hi again, ed! i have yet another question for ya. i have a cable connected
 between my sys4 and my coco3 (disto serial port), but i can only get a good
 connection at 2400 baud. 4800 is iffy, and 9600 is useless. i suspect i have
 the thing wired incorrectly, though obviously data and ground lines are ok.
 could you tell me the best way to hook the two computers together, signal-to-
 signal rather than pin-to-pin. or both ways, using pin numbers and signal
 names? (yep, i did do some fiddling and i don't have my notes handy. if i can
 find 'em at all, though i know i made notes! 8*)...........roy

-*-

84006 13-DEC 18:35 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 83964)
     From: EDELMAR      To: ROYBUR


 Roy,

 I'm not familiar with the Disto serial port - I used Superboards.  Assuming
 you're are trying to use the CoCo as a terminal and you're using OS9 on the
 CoCo, I don't think this can be done reliably at speeds over 2400.  The
 problem is the CoCo - it can't handle the serial port and writl port is at
higher baud rates.  When Greg Law was doing
 the review of the SYSTEM IV, he found the same problem.  He went to one the
 RSDOS terminal programs (VTerm) and was able to work at 19200 baud.  He was
 using a standard RS rs-232 pack.  Anyway, if you're able to communicate OK at
 2400, I think your wiring is correct.  One thing you can try to verify proper
 connections is to use your SYSTEM IV as a terminal and log onto your CoCo.

 When I got my first K2 board (predecessor to the K4 board), I wanted to
 transfer my SCULPTOR stuff from the CoCo.  I used Kermit for this and
 logged into the CoCo.  As I recall, I successfully transfered the stuff at
 either 9600 or 19200.  Going the other way, (log in from the CoCo), I
 was limited.

 Ed

-*-

84010 13-DEC 19:04 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84006)
     From: ROYBUR       To: EDELMAR

 thanx for the info, ed. yes, i've tried logging onto the coco, but i don't
 think i tried anything over 4800 baud and i didn't notice any problems in
 that direction. fwiw, my ol' coco3 is just that; old. it was one of the first
 to be sold in this area, and i'm sure it has the 1986 GIME. there are no
 very obvious problems with it...unless the fact that it has problems with
 rates over 2400 baud is a symptom. i did try a DECB term program - AUTOTERM -
 but it didn't work as well as SuperComm. that's why i wanted to check the
 connections. i suspect AUTOTERM may be inferior, here, to something like
 VTERM, since AUTOTERM was written to be used on all models of coco and so
 has to be doing some extra testing to determine what it's running on.
 thanx again. 8*).........................roy

-*-

84011 13-DEC 19:45 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84010)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: ROYBUR

Roy,
  I just bumped into this thread. Using the coco under OS9 as a terminal will
work  fine at speeds up to 9600  (with a 6551 based rs232 pack).  If you're
getting lost text at 4800, someting is wrong. I saw mention  of Disto earlier
on. This problem could well be caused by the Disto clock driver. If your
still using it, get rid of it, and grab Clock Edition #9 (Eddie Kuns, System
Modules  here), and use the one included  that's for the Disto.

  Gimme the low down on your coco system, and we'll get  you as close  to
optimum as possible.

   Randy

-*-

84018 13-DEC 21:11 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84010)
     From: MITHELEN     To: ROYBUR

If you want to get reliable communication at over 2400 baud under OS-9,
with a "standard" RS-232 pack, you will nedd to have the SAcia replacement
driver installed, AND hade hardware handshakeing active on both ends.
Otherwise, you WILL get buffer overflows/lockups when receiveing at greater
then 2400 baud on a CoCo under OS-9.
--
 Paul Jerkatis - SandV BBS (708)352-0948: Chicago Area OS-9 Users Group
 UUCP ...{balr|tellab5}!vpnet!sandv.chi.il.us!sysop
 Internet: MITHELEN@Delphi.com

 "Did you ever notice how cheep 99% of all BBS users are?" - Unknown

-*-

84019 13-DEC 21:27 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84018)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: MITHELEN

Paul, I disagree fully here. Neither hardware handshake, nor SAcia,  is
required  for high speed work. While the extra breathing room of SAcia's
adjustable buffers is helpful at times, hardware handshake is totally
unneeded when the  CoCo is being used as a text terminal.

 Note that in developing SuperComm 2.2 (and 2.3), I do extensive testing
with as  many system formats as I can. Supercomm with Aciapak, using
xon/xoff, works  just  fine at 9600, and is actually slightly *faster*
than SAcia.

  Randy

-*-

84024 13-DEC 23:23 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84019)
     From: MITHELEN     To: RANDYKWILSON

Yes, I suppose you are right, that XON/XOFF handshakeing can be used, the point
is, SOME kind of flow control is needed.
--
Paul

-*-

84027 13-DEC 23:49 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84024)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: MITHELEN

Yeah, exactly. It all depends on the usage. For instance, in this case we're
dealing with a text only remote terminal. With page pause set on, you could
either  use a buffer big enough to  hold most of a page, or you can  use
any  form of flow control. But,  if you want to do file transfers, you
have tolook at the  options. with ymodem, the packet  run length is limited
to  1029 bytes. In testing at 9600, SuperComm  never  got  more  than 100
bytes  behind  the data stream (this is because it does header and crc checking
on the fly), so you don't need big buffers, or flow control. But if you want
to use zmodem, you *have* to use hardware  flow. Otherwise the streaming
packets andthe disk writes will collide.

   The intended purpose will dictate the minimum setup.

      Randy

-*-

84063 15-DEC 03:28 General Information
     RE: rs-232 cabling (Re: Msg 84019)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: RANDYKWILSON (NR)

I use my CoCo as a terminal on the Kix\30 at
9600bps with few problems.  I have even used
both of my serial ports simultaneously from the
CoCo.  One downloading files off of Delphi at
(sort of) 2400 and meanwhile using the other at
9600 working on the Kix before the Kix graphics
board arrived.  I also have a 486 Intel machine
that I can hardwire-connect to at 9600 and achieve
750 characters download speed to the CoCo using
Y-modem batch.  The coco is a 6309 with powerboost,
Sacia, Ed#9 clock drivers, Disto serial port ( no
hardware handshaking with the Disto) and a Tandy
RS232 port.  Its all ribbon connected so there is
no slot switching delays due to the MPI.

So, I believe speeds greater than 2400 are
possible except through the bit-banger port.

Allen

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83966 11-DEC 22:52 OSK Applications
     RE: CDI full motion demo (Re: Msg 83946)
     From: JEJONES      To: PHXKEN

 > Do you think that the $200 full motion video card will work with the
 > cheaper Magnavox model of the Phillips CD-i machine?

To the best of my knowledge, the Magnavox CD-i player is built to take
the full motion video card as well as the Philips CD-i player.

Opinions (and errors, if I've made any) are those of their respective
authors, and not necessarily those of any organization.

*** posted w/InfoXpress 1.1 ***

-*-

84057 15-DEC 02:33 OSK Applications
     RE: CDI full motion demo (Re: Msg 83946)
     From: AJMLFCO      To: PHXKEN (NR)

I did not ask about the Magnavox unit.  I later saw a
Magnavox CD-I ( I think it was at Montgomery Wards)
for $399.  My recollection of the video pricing was that
they were in the $24 to $40 range.  They had about 6
titles at Incredible Universe.  The salesman told me
(this makes it an unsubstantiated rumour) that
Blockbuster video will renting the movies (why not
rent the games, too?) and that they were 40% owned
by philips.  The full motion card improves the actions of
games as well.  It seems that they
will work with or without the full motion card, but
of course, much smoother with it.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83969 12-DEC 01:11 Games & Graphics
     Computer Artists Wanted
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: ALL

To all those with artistic talents...

Sub-Etha Software is looking for a few computer artists for some
upcoming projects.  Those participating would receive free software
products from Sub-Etha Software (either for OS-9 or OSk), plus get to
see their name in lights! Anyone interested may send mail plus a sample
CM3, VEF, or GIF picture file you created to JOELHEGBERG for more
information.  You can either be working under RS-DOS, OS-9, or OSk to
participate.


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83972 12-DEC 02:15 Programmers Den
     OSK Data Modules
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: ALL

I'm trying to use a memory data module in an OSK program I'm writing,
and I really don't know how to get the memory address of the data area
of the data module.  I see that upon linking to (or creating) a memory
data module, OS-9 C passes back a "mod_exec" pointer back, and within
the mod_exec structure is an offset to the data area of the module, but
how do I know what location the actual data module is at to apply to
data area offset to?  A code snippet could help tremendously here... :)
Thanks for any help!



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83976 12-DEC 05:58 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK Data Modules (Re: Msg 83972)
     From: PAGAN        To: JOELHEGBERG

Joel,

 It looks a little bit tricky but it actually makes perfect sense once you've
 done it a few times:

    int *dataptr;   /* pointer to whatever type of data to be stored */
    mod_exec *mp;

    mp=_mkdata_module(modname,4,attrevs,perms);

    dataptr=(int *)mp+mp->_mexec;       /* data pointer /

 Notice that the _execution_ offset _not_ the data offset is where you store
 the data.  Whatever you do, don't mess with the value returned by
 _mkdata_module(); You'll need it to unlink the module when you're thru.  OS9
 will not automatically deallocate a data module when the creating process
 terminates.

 Stephen (PAGAN)



-*-

83984 12-DEC 14:58 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK Data Modules (Re: Msg 83976)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: PAGAN

Stephen,

 > Notice that the _execution_ offset _not_ the data offset is where you
 > store the data.  Whatever you do, don't mess with the value returned by
 > _mkdata_module(); You'll need it to unlink the module when you're thru.
 > OS9 will not automatically deallocate a data module when the creating
 > process terminates.

Thanks a lot for the help/code... it was just what I needed!  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

84045 14-DEC 22:08 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK Data Modules (Re: Msg 83984)
     From: PAGAN        To: JOELHEGBERG

 Joel,

 I goofed! When I sent you the code to create a data module I made an error
 that could have you writing outside the memory reserved for the module.  The
 code should have been something like:

    int *dataptr;   /* pointer to whatever type of data to be stored */
    mod_exec *mp;
    char *mod;

    mp=_mkdata_module(modname,datasize,attrevs,perms);
    mod=(char *)mp;
    dataptr=(int *)(mod+mp->_mexec);    /* data pointer /

 I think you can see what would have happened without the conversion to a
 char *.  Since C increments pointers by the size of whatever they point to,
 dataptr would be pointing to some place surprising.  Hope this hasn't caused
 any problems.

 You know, this kind of thing never happened in assembly language!

 Stephen (PAGAN)

-*-

84061 15-DEC 02:47 Programmers Den
     RE: OSK Data Modules (Re: Msg 84045)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: PAGAN

Stephen,

 > I think you can see what would have happened without the conversion to a
 > char *.  Since C increments pointers by the size of whatever they point
 > to, dataptr would be pointing to some place surprising.  Hope this hasn't
 > caused any problems.

Thanks for posting the update!  I did have this in mind, but had yet to
get into implementing it.

 > You know, this kind of thing never happened in assembly language!

<grin>



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83980 12-DEC 08:29 Telecom (6809)
     RE: RiBBS/RS232 Pak (Re: Msg 83949)
     From: DENNYWRIGHT  To: WESGALE (NR)

I am using aciadrv and swapped cable at one end. I will tryt the sacia
drivestead and see what happens. For some reason ribbs keeps detecting carrier
and trying to log someone in. I tried the ICL232 mod but it didn't work. Got a
correct version of the docs
?


-*-

83982 12-DEC 11:50 Standards
     OS9 UG and Standards group
     From: NIMITZ       To: ALL

The OS9 users group BOD - or at least members of it, have told me that
they see no reason for such a group  to be formed at this time.  However - IF I
FOUND ONE AND IT TURNS OUT OK,   the UG would consider accepting it as an organ
of the Users group later.    When I was less than accepting of this proposal,
well, it seems to
 have upset yet another member of the BOD.  So, I'm asking the members of the
OS9 community to look at this situation, and tell me if they would accept such
a proposal - that one person or group should do the work of setting up a
organization to benefit al
l, then turn it over to the group that SHOULD be helping to get the job done in
the first place after they put no effort into it.  Frankly, I see no
improvement in this group.   They tell me - 'give us time,  give us a chance
'  but I've offered this group a chance to start an activity that many of the
small  developers tell me they see as a boon to all and offer to donate my time
in a cooperative venture, and get told to do it myself and give it to them
later?  Am I missing so
mething here??   What do you think??


-*-

83985 12-DEC 14:58 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83982)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: NIMITZ

David,

 > The OS9 users group BOD - or at least members of it, have told me that
 > they see no reason for such a group  to be formed at this time.  However -

This is a very critical time for the OS9 User's Group, and I can tell
you there are many many things on the BOD's minds.  We had an on-line
meeting here last night and many many topics were discussed, and the
meeting lasted for quite a while.  (I'm not speaking from a BOD
perspective, as I'm not part of the BOD, but rather the MOTD editor.)
Frankly, a standard's group is something that the OS-9 User's Group is
not ready to get involved with because of the many other critical areas
it has to concentrate on in restarting the OS-9 User's Group.

Personally, I would love to see a standards group formed someday... it
would be a boon to all.



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

83994 12-DEC 19:33 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83982)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: NIMITZ

I'll be printing your article in the next issue. Why don't you ask the UG
to appoint YOU as head of the "standards committee" and then you can go on
your merry way... at least with the groups blessing, and you can probably
get a little more interest since you will at least have the endorsement of the
UG. The few workers in the group do have their hands full, but I can't see
why they wouldn't at least give you an endorsement!

-*-

83999 12-DEC 23:55 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83982)
     From: WA2EGP       To: NIMITZ

Well, I wouldn't mind helping if I able to offer anything useful.  Whether I
can or not, I don't know.

-*-

84008 13-DEC 18:37 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83994)
     From: EDELMAR      To: DSRTFOX


 Frank,

 > ... Why don't you ask the UG to appoint YOU as head of the "standards
 > committee" and then you can go on your merry way... at least with the
 > groups blessing, and you can probably get a little more interest since
 > you will at least have the endorsement of the UG. The few workers in the
 > group do have their hands full, but I can't see why they wouldn't at least
 > give you an endorsement!

 First, I'd like to suggest you look up the definition of the word 'standard'
 in the dictionary and then find out what it means and how it is used in
 industry.

 As to your statement 'and then you can go on your merry way...', absolutely
 not.  Not even the President of the UG can go his 'merry way' and most
 fortunately, (as he demonstrated at our first BOD meeting) Carl does not wish
 to do so.  Rather, he has demonostrated a very stong dedication to guide the
 UG to a position where membership in the UG will be attractive to all members
 of the OS-9 community and where the UG will serve the community as a whole.
 I should add that the other members of the BOD demonstrated a similar
 dedication.

 I'm not singleing out David Graham - I have nothing against him.  (But, he
 is the one raising the issue.)  However, I think to give him or anyone carte
 blanche to act in the name of and/or under the mantle of the OS-9 User Group
 is inappropriate.  Further, he has not made such a request to the UG or the
 BOD.  Nor, does he know how the BOD will respond to such a request.  (However,
 he does know my position but I'm only 1 of 5 directors.)  David is demonstra-
 ting a great deal of enthusiasm.  But rather than use a shot-gun approach,
 I'd like to see him zero in on a specific issue and follow through on that.
 If he can demonstrate that the issue is indeed a problem, can convince other
 interested parties to appoint competent persons to serve on such a committee,
 I don't think he'll have any problem getting the endorsement and full support
 from the BOD - he will get support from me.

 Ed Gresick
 Director - OS-9 Users Group

-*-

84009 13-DEC 18:52 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83982)
     From: EDELMAR      To: NIMITZ


 David,

 I'm not speaking for the UG or the BOD but I will speak as 1 of 5 Director's
 and try to state clearly my position regarding your desire for a broad-based
 standards committee.

 I have a rather strict definition of 'standard'.  Most of the things you
 appear to be alluding to fall, at best, in the category of practices - not
 standards.  You've mentioned only one subject which might qualify as a
 standard; i.e., defining certain signals.  But you haven't provided any
 examples of where or why this is needed.  Also, who else in the industry
 agrees that this is a problem which needs to be addressed or are you
 addressing a problem peculiar to your Company's hardware/software.  I don't
 know.  I suggest you define the problem you perceive clearly in your mind
 first.  Then discuss the specifics with representatives of other Companies
 in the OS-9 community; i.e., OEMs, VARs, programmers and other interested
 parties.  You will also have to consider possible backward compatibility
 problems.  If you can get a concensus from them that this is indeed a problem,
 prepare and submit a proposal to the UG outlining the problem, what the objec-
 tive is and a list of experts in the specific area willing to serve on that
 committee.  I will certainly look favorably on such a proposal.

 The rest of the subjects you mentioned appear to fall in the category of
 practices or information but not as a standard.  For example, you mentioned
 preparing a 'library' that would include many functions (beyond MW's I assume)
 to make it easier for programmers.  I don't have a problem with you or anyone
 else doing this.  But I don't see where UG endorsement or sponsorship is
 necessary for this.  This 'library' could be submitted to the existing UG
 library or otherwise made available to programmers.  However, I'd think that
 if the 'library' is truly worthwhile and will be supported, you'd want to
 sell it to programmers.  Anyway, I don't see that making such a 'library'
 a 'standard' will necessarily benefit the community.  Most experienced C
 programmers already have their own libraries which they would probably prefer
 to use.  But again, you may always discuss this with others as I described
 above and if there is a consesus that a standard library of the type you
 propose is necessary, submit a proposal to the UG.  I will listen.

 David, I'd suggest you read the Constitution of the UG.  Among the primary
 objectives are the expansion of the UG by bringing in industrial members and
 new users as well as expanding support for existing members.  You may have
 some excellent ideas consistant with these objectives but you will have to
 define and present these ideas more clearly than you have.  You will have to
 do your homework first.  And I will not vote for a committee with nebulous
 objectives and broad powers regardless of who heads it.  I will favor a
 separate committee to address each problem/objective.  BTW, if you look
 into how ANSII or the IEEE does this, I think you'll find the procedure
 they follow is similar to what I'm asking for; i.e., they do not initiate
 such committees.  Proposals are presented to them by an informal group.
 Then, after credentials and many other factors are examined, they may
 endorse the establishment of a committee to prepare 'draft specifications'
 under their 'umbrella'.

 Please remember that for a standard to be credible, it must be accepted by
 the entire community - Industrial, VARs, programmers, users, etc.  Calling
 something a standard does not make it so.  UG endorsement of a standard
 without the participation and agreement of all interested parties, would
 only serve to discredit the UG.

 Ed Gresick
 Director, OS-9 Users Group

-*-

84015 13-DEC 20:36 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83994)
     From: NIMITZ       To: DSRTFOX

Actually Frank, that is exactly what I asked for.  I simply beleive that the
'standards organization' belongs under the Users Group.  However, the members
of the BOD who are aware and have contacted me, seem to think otherwise.  I
figure, if I gotta do the
 work before I can have an endorsement, why bother with the endorsement.   See,
the OS9 UG endorsement SHOULD make the job a liettle easier.  So, if I gotta do
it the hard way, why involve the UG after the hard part is done?


-*-

84016 13-DEC 20:48 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84008)
     From: NIMITZ       To: EDELMAR

Ed, I like the shotgun analogy you used.  Perhaps this can allow me to get
my point accross to you.   If you want to go hunting , in a group (in this case
a necessity), you do not just say, let's hunt quail.   You set out a plan that
avoids wasted effort, and injuries to the hunters.   And it you are hunting for
survival purpos
es, you don't restrict yourself to quail.  (Ignoring the problem of game
regulations, though I don't intend to ignore the law in real world
applications).   So, committing myself to fixing one problem now is not
necessarily  soemthing I want to do.  Beside
s, I want this group to be free to take on additional problems as they arise.
However, if I had to attack one problem first, it would be the lack of
standards for graphics format handling libraries for all  OSK machines.   I
would assemble a group of GWi
ndows, KWindows, MM/1 , System IV and V programmers (and other machines - if
possible), and work on assembling standards for and working examples of a
libarary that would allow use of PCX, VEF, GIF, TIFF, PBM and other popular
graphics file formats accross
(across) all as many platforms as possible using the same syntax.   But, I
would not wait until this project was done to start on a committee for DBM tool
development.   Now, I realize that using this group for library development
might offend some, but I
see this as an essential part of a shared plan to revitalize our market place.
And this group (or these groups) would and rightfully should be restricted from
developing entire applications, that should be undertaken only by commercial
organizations, tho
ugh licensing of the commonly developed library for a minimal fee would be used
to finance further shared development projects, such as QIC readers if
possible.

             David M. Graham
             BlackHawk Enterprises, Inc.


-*-

84026 13-DEC 23:29 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84015)
     From: WA2EGP       To: NIMITZ (NR)

How about making it an "informal suggestion" group, submit it the the UG and
see how they react to "it" (it referring to the suggestions).

-*-

84030 14-DEC 00:37 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 83982)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: NIMITZ (NR)

I think you are on the right track..the UG should help in developing
standards...I am sure many of us in the OS-9 community (myself included)
we donate time and help in developing standard for a variety of problems
.all that is needed is an idea, and for someone to simply ask for help.

The UG should be a part of it. After all, they are the Users Group..
What will industrial users and "outsiders" think if our official users
group just sits around and adopts the standards the users make, esp when
there is little or no input by the UG (until the very end), or from
the industrial users (at all)..

The UG should at the very least "poll" its members somehow, find out
as much as they can about what the users need, and what they would like
to do, then relay that info to those working on the standard..

                                                    -* Mike

-*-

84033 14-DEC 00:50 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84008)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: EDELMAR

I think there should be 2 standards commitees, 1 for OSk, and 1 for OS-9
or at least 2 divisions under the standards commitee, I would like to
get the OS-9/6809 patch problem fixed up, then maybe "printercap" file,
and a file to control basic graphics functions, if possible, or some
type system to have 1 binary (for OSk, though it would work with OS-9 too)
work with the various windowing systems...

                                                  -* Mike

-*-

84041 14-DEC 18:41 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84016)
     From: EDELMAR      To: NIMITZ (NR)


 David,

 I hear (and have heard) everything you're saying.  But, I don't think
 you're hearing me.  I will try to be as clear as possible.  There is no
 intent in what I'm about to say to insult or otherwise discredit you or
 anyone else.  Again, I'm not speaking for the UG or the BOD - only myself.

 One of the primary objectives of the UG is to bring in industrial, educational
 and other professional users; without their participation and support, I
 don't believe the UG can have much of a future.  This objective transcends
 national boundaries - we want participation and support from all users
 throughout the world.  Additionally, we want to spread the word about OS-9.
 I'd like to see the latter effort coordinated with MW.  I don't believe an
 effective PR campaign can be implemented without the financial support the
 industrial market can provide.

 Another objective is to provide support for OS-9 Users.  This will include
 all OS-9 users - not just those who are members, or are on this forum, or
 on FIDO or own MM/1s.  This should include the user with the expensive,
 super 68040 VME system as well as the CoCo and everything in between.  And,
 it includes OS-9000.

 (Still another objective is the support of OS-9/6809, the CoCo Users but
 I don't think that is part of this discussion.)

 One of the biggest problems the UG has is to restore credibility with MW
 (does effect UG efforts re OS-9/6809) and the industrial, educational,
 professional and other members of the _entire_ OS-9 community and bring
 them in as active and supporting members.  I'll repeat what I said before.
 IMO, without their participation and support, I don't believe the UG has
 much of a future.

 The above represents the factors I'll consider when discussing UG policies
 including the establishment of committees.

 I believe I'm being consistent when I object to any one person or any one
 committee having broad powers under the mantle of the OS-9 Users Group.  I
 want to be certain that whatever work is done, is done by a broad representa-
 tion of the OS-9 Community by qualified and experienced people, that the
 problem being addressed is a real problem common to the entire community and
 that the final results will be meaningful, accepted by and available to the
 _entire_ community thereby reflecting positively on the UG.  Depending on the
 problem, it may that MW will resolve the issue.  Above all, any work done
 under the mantle of the OS-9 Users Group should not be for the benefit of an
 individual, Company or 'class' of user.  Benefits must accrue to and be
 available to all.

 Let's examine a few of your comments -
 > However, if I had to attack one problem first, it would be the lack of
 > standards for graphics format handling libraries for all  OSK machines.   I
 > would assemble a group of GWindows, KWindows, MM/1 , System IV and V
 > programmers (and other machines - if possible), and work on assembling
 > standards for and working examples of a libarary that would allow use of
 > PCX, VEF, GIF, TIFF, PBM and other popular graphics file formats accross
 > (across) all as many platforms as possible using the same syntax.

 First, let me comment that when this was proposed 3 or 4 years ago, I received
 a message, that I (DELMAR) should conform to MM/1 standards; that in 1 or 2
 years there would be between 5000 and 10000 MM/1s out there and the SYSTEM
 IV and other hardware would _have_ to conform to K-Windows and other MM/1
 standards.  Wonder what happened?  (OK, I got my lick in.)

 For native mode use, both the SYSTEM IV and SYSTEM V computers already have
 a gfx library based on Microsoft Quick C.  Many of my customers have written
 software using these libraries.  What benefit would it be to me or my custo-
 mers to change.  Isn't it a little late?

 As to G-WINDOWS, any changes would have to be made and approved by GESPAC.
 They own and control G-WINDOWS.  Have you talked to them?  Considering the
 number of copies of G-WINDOWS sold and the number of platforms it has been
 ported to, I, personally, see no valid reason to change G-WINDOWS to conform
 with some standard you might prefer (K-Windows?) unless you can present a
 very compelling case.

 I see 2 alternatives for you.  The first is for you to arrange to port K-
 Windows to all the other platforms, convince the other programmers, users and
 OEM's to use it and prove that it is better than what they have; the second
 is for you to port G-WINDOWS to the MM/1.  (Unless I get another 10 orders in
 the next 2 weeks, I will not be doing a port of G-WINDOWS to the MM/1.)
 The latter option may not be such a bad idea - it would bring the MM/1 into
 the mainstream.

 As to the gfx file formats, several already exist for the SYSTEM IV/V, as
 well as for G-WINDOWS.  I am working on bringing some of the other gfx
 formats to G-WINDOWS.  Much of this has been done with my time, effort and
 expense.  Several SYSTEM VI/V owners have contributed such programs.  Or,
 I paid for them when I purchased the G-WINDOWS Port Pack and license.  It
 appears to me that you want these for the MM/1 but are unwilling to expend
 the effort/funds to get them.  Certainly, you may assemble a team to write
 these for the MM/1 but since I fail to see what benefits I or OEMs, VARs
 and other non-MM/1 users will receive, why should the UG sponsor such an
 effort?

 > But, I would not wait until this project was done to start on a committee
 > for DBM tool development.

 Don't we already have several DBMS?  Starting at $75, an older version of the
 SCULPTOR development pacakge is available.  Next we have DATADEX written by
 Steve Carville.  For a simple database, it is surprisingly powerful and
 versatile.  Then, I believe IMS is available for a few hundred dollars.  I
 think this is similar to DBase 3.  At the upper end we have SCULPTOR again.
 Also, I think there are a couple of PD DBMS in the Database here and/or on
 CIS.  Why should the UG sponsor an effort that would compete with already
 available commercial software?  I hope we can get MPD (SCULPTOR) and whoever
 is putting out IMS to join the UG.  Do you think they will join if the UG
 sponsors and supports others to compete with them?  This is just this type
 of action that I believe must be avoided by the UG.

 > ... but I see this as an essential part of a shared plan to revitalize our
 > market place.

 Perhaps you can share your ideas with the UG.  At the BOD meeting we grappled
 with this problem.  It is going to take a great deal of time and effort to
 effectively address it.  If you have a workable plan, I can assure you the
 UG BOD will welcome it.

 David, it appears to me (from the ideas you've presented) that you are asking
 for sponsorship for a committee that will benefit you, your Company and the
 MM/1.  I don't see where you've identified and addressed problems the main-
 stream OS-9 community may have.  Nor do you appear to want to make a concerted
 effort to involve them to determine if your perception of problems are in
 fact problems and involve them in solving them - particularly if a standard
 is required.  In several previous messages, you intimated you would solve
 industry's problems for them by means of your committee but do you know what
 their problems are?  How can you do this without involving them?

 You complain certain members of the BOD (including me) don't want to help
 but want the credit.  Perhaps the best way of stating it is if work done
 under the UG mantle benefits the entire OS-9 community, then the UG and its
 membership will benefit.  If the entire OS-9 community doesn't benefit, we
 can expect criticism which will be detrimental to the UG.  As I see it, the
 only help the UG, as an organization, can give you is a mantle of legitimacy
 by sponsoring your committee.  If this mantle is provided, how do I, as a
 Director, know your efforts will reflect positively on the UG?

 So long as I'm a Director of the UG, I will not vote to give you, or anyone,
 the kind of broad authority you want to establish standards you decide are
 necesary under the auspices of the UG.  I will judge each request on its
 merits; i.e., is the problem one that can only be resolved by a standard, do
 experts in the field (including MW) concur, what are the credentials of those
 serving on the committee, who will comprise the working committee, what
 assurance is there that the OEMs, VARs, programmers, etc. comply with such a
 standard and how will it benefit the OS-9 community as a whole.  I don't
 believe it is up to the UG to do the preliminary work.  Rather, I believe we
 should follow the practices of other organizations regarding standards; i.e.,
 the interested party(s) do their homework and present a package to the UG
 for consideration.  If the information provided substantiates the need,
 approval will most certainly be given and the committee can proceed with the
 work under the auspices of the UG.

 Ed Gresick
 Director, OS-9 UG

-*-

84042 14-DEC 18:42 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84030)
     From: EDELMAR      To: ILLUSIONIST


 Mike,


 > I think you are on the right track..the UG should help in developing
 > standards...I am sure many of us in the OS-9 community (myself included)
 > we donate time and help in developing standard for a variety of problems
 > .all that is needed is an idea, and for someone to simply ask for help.

 The UG is comprised only of volunteers; that includes the officers, directors,
 and people like the MOTD Editor and the Librarian.  No one is paid or compen-
 sated for their time or expenses nor are there any paid employees.  The
 only resources (assets if you will) the UG has are its name and membership.

 The simple fact we might have a problem, doesn't mean we need a standard.
 Standards are useful only if all parties concerned agree that there is a
 problem, participate in their preparation, agree to them and follow them.

 > The UG should be a part of it. After all, they are the Users Group..
 > What will industrial users and "outsiders" think if our official users
 > group just sits around and adopts the standards the users make, esp when
 > there is little or no input by the UG (until the very end), or from
 > the industrial users (at all)..

 What will industrial users and "outsiders" think if the UG adopts standards
 without all interested parties being involved.  Worse, what if it is a
 standard contrary to what they have been doing.

 In all cases, it will have to be the interested parties that will do the
 work.  The question is whether the UG will endorse the work.  There are
 several steps involved whether the UG is involved or not.  Let's look at
 how most standards committees have been formed in the past.

 Typically, someone will encounter a problem.  Most people will contact their
 local expert to get a solution.  If no solution can be found, several other
 people are contacted.  (Along the way, the problem is further defined.)
 Finally, leading experts will be contacted.  Most often, the 'problem' will
 have been resolved along the way.  Occassionally, there is no satisfactory
 resolution and the people involved will form an informal committee with the
 intent of preparing a standard.  They will contact an organization like the
 IEEE, ANSII, ISO, etc. (but it could be the OS-9 Users Group as well if the
 subject is applicable).  These organizations have certain requirements before
 they will formally 'adopt' a committee; i.e., statement of the problem(s),
 why they are problem(s), what experts (including their credentials) concur
 that this is a problem and the names of the Companies and/or individuals who
 will serve on the committee.  If all of the requirements of the standards
 organization are met, they will issue the committee a 'charter' which will
 among other things, define the scope of their work and the expected end
 result (there are many other provisions but they're not important for this
 example).  At this point, a working committee will be formed which will do
 the actual work of preparing the specifications which can later be formalized
 as a standard.  During the preparation of the specification, 'draft specifi-
 cations' are often circulated for review.  Interested parties send in their
 comments and the specification is revised.  This continues until the
 differences are resolved.  At this point the specification becomes a standard
 and the committee is dissolved having completed its work.

 Even when one of the large standards organizations sponsors the effort, it is
 the people who called for forming the committee who usually do most of the
 work.  The sponsoring organization provides no help - indeed, in most cases,
 they  may not even understand the work being done by its various committees

 Should the UG do things differently?  Granted, being small, we do not need
 all the paper work the larger organizations require but I think the same
 requirements should hold.  If the UG is be responsible, professional and gain
 the respect of the entire OS-9 community, can it do any different?

 > The UG should at the very least "poll" its members somehow, find out
 > as much as they can about what the users need, and what they would like
 > to do, then relay that info to those working on the standard..

 I agree with you that we must find out what the membership needs and wants.
 My preference is for a questionaire sent to members (maybe part of the MOTD?)
 every year.  I can bring this up at the next BOD meeting but I'd suggest you
 contact Carl Boll, UG President (CBJ on Delphi), directly and inform him of
 your needs.

 As to getting information to those working on standards, if the UG follows
 a procedure similar to what I outlined above, every interested party will
 have the opportunity to review the specification being prepared and present
 their views.

 Ed Gresick
 Director - OS-9 UG

-*-

84043 14-DEC 18:42 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84033)
     From: EDELMAR      To: ILLUSIONIST


 Mike,

 The UG is committed to supporting OS-9/6809.  We have a VP designated with
 that responsibility but he hasn't been on the job very long - he's just
 getting his feet wet.  He will probably need the help of others to resolve
 the patch and other problems.

 The UG is taking the first step to re-establish our credibility with MW.
 This will be followed, I hope, with the necessary steps to acquire the
 rights to the 6809 code from MW and, with their help, the gfx code from
 Tandy.

 If the UG is successful in its effort to obtain OS-9/6809 rights, the UG
 will be able to support the code since MW has stopped supporting it and
 there should be no conflicts.

 Ed Gresick
 Director - OS-9 UG

-*-

84046 14-DEC 22:21 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84008)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EDELMAR

Actually, Ed, I sort of meant that David should more or less do as you
suggested, though I was more than a little "loose" in terminology!

-*-

84047 14-DEC 22:24 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84042)
     From: ILLUSIONIST  To: EDELMAR

I agree Ed, and that is what I am saying, the UG shouldnt make the
standards, we should, but those standards should be accepted by all (most?)
of the OS-9 world. Not just the CoCoers, not just those with the MM/1,
Kix's or System IV's, and not just the industrial users. It should be all
of us. And only the UG can really be called "all" of us, thus far anyway.
If the UG put out a poll, asked its users what they want, and then we all
get on the horn to the companies, and get in contact with the industrial
users, and the standard we make has to be more than "ok, I can live with that"
it has to be "OK! Thats and idea! THAT would make life easier for aof
us"...

that is the kind of standards we need to make, and the only way a group
of us will be able to find out with the industrial users are doing, and
what the rest of the OS-9 world is doing is with help from the UG..and that
help has to come before work is even started...with a poll. find out
what the users want, and what the programmers want..and lets do it..
I see alot of talk. Zero action. At least Dave is trying to get something
done here..I am not trying to knock you or the UG, I just think the
OS-9 community for a long time has talked about how our OS is better than
everyone elses, and how we talked about doing this, and that, and what
we need..but very few times has anyone DONE anything..cant we change that?
At least 1 time out of 100.

Give me a list of what patches people use most. and Say, 10 people to
help me, and will put helluva effort into getting the patch problem
fixed up the best we can.. (until we get source for os-9/6809)..

who can give me a list of what patches are used most? the UG. Poll the
users. Now, I just need some help.

                                                -* Mike

-*-

84048 14-DEC 22:29 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84043)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: EDELMAR

Ed, I guess what I should do is submit the list of patches I currently sell to
the UG as a "recommendation" of patches for a "standard" OS-9/CoCo system.
They ARE the most useful and used patches. It wouldn't deteriorate the value
of my product, as I have them all combined and won't be contributing the
auto-install program.. which is the major attraction in the case of the
commercial compilation. Who would I submit this to? I must also point
out that Rick Ulland did most of the patch compilations also...

-*-

84054 15-DEC 00:01 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84041)
     From: WA2EGP       To: EDELMAR

I tend to agree with what you said but I don;t think we need to get our "lick"
in.  That tends to turn people off.  I don't think the UG needs that right now.
I'm also getting the impression from some individuals' comments that K-Windows
users will be left out in the cold.  I hope that it will be supported in some
manner until us K-Window users finally get G-Windows or whatever is there at
the time.  (Personlly, I can't afford it right now.....no offense or anything,
but my budget is very tight at this time.  That is why I haven't ordered it.)
Maybe the UG could poll users, both industrial and personal, and see what
turns up.  I know there are ideas and practices out there that I don't know
about (grin).

-*-

84055 15-DEC 00:39 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84041)
     From: KSCALES      To: EDELMAR

 > I see 2 alternatives for you.  The first is for you to arrange to port
 > K- Windows to all the other platforms, convince the other programmers,
 > users and OEM's to use it and prove that it is better than what they have;
 > the second is for you to port G-WINDOWS to the MM/1.  (Unless I get
 > another 10 orders in the next 2 weeks, I will not be doing a port of
 > G-WINDOWS to the MM/1.) The latter option may not be such a bad idea - it
 > would bring the MM/1 into the mainstream.

Sigh.  I do hope that more orders are forthcoming.  But if the MM/1 port
doesn't happen, I will probably use the money I had committed for G-Windows
and the Developer's Pak to buy a bigger hard drive so that I can install
Linux on my OS-9000 box.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ken Scales   Delphi:KSCALES   Internet:kscales@delphi.com   CIS:74646,2237
     I've ordered G-Windows for my MM/1:  Have you?  Deadline Dec 31/93.

-*-

84062 15-DEC 02:47 Standards
     RE: OS9 UG and Standards group (Re: Msg 84054)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: WA2EGP (NR)

 > I'm also getting the impression from some individuals' comments that
 > K-Windows users will be left out in the cold.  I hope that it will be
 > supported in some manner until us K-Window users finally get

K-Windows is receiving more support now than G-Windows (simply based on
programs that are readily available in databases, BBS's, and by
vendors), so I don't think we'll be left out in the cold... we just have
to realize we're not the only one's running OS-9, which I think is
sometimes forgotten.


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83986 12-DEC 16:42 General Information
     RE: GENIE (Re: Msg 83893)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: CLTUCKER

You would send that message in Delphi MAIL, not forum, but yes, as the "TO:"
member name.

-*-

83987 12-DEC 16:51 System Modules (6809)
     RE: Tape Backup Status (Re: Msg 83921)
     From: DSRTFOX      To: RICHKOTTKE

Go ahead and go with the floppy drive interface for now. Another idea would
be to go through a Computer Shopper and see if there isn't anher company
that might be more willing to deal with you!! All Colorado has done is send
the QIC codes through the parallel port rather than floppy controller, and the
Motorola microcontroller do all the work of caching data and passing the codes
along to the floppy controller. As far as the floppy controller is concerned
(and the tape drive) it is connected to a computer... in this case the MCU!
I know that doesn't help much but is in a nut-shell what Colorado is doing. You
need to know what commands the MCU wants, then write a driver for the
bi-directional parallel port.

-*-

83990 12-DEC 19:02 Programmers Den
     RE: VEF (Re: Msg 83270)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: EARTHER

I don't happen to have the exact issue handy, but in late 1990, I published
a series of three articles on graphics compression in the Rainbow.
The sample programs were Basic09 programs to read and display VEF files.
The first article discussed "plain" VEF format, the second gave the
remaining pieces of the program to handle "Squashed" VEF as well.
The third article (and part of the second) discussed several other
graphics formats.

If you're generally interested in graphics formats, I uploaded a "help"
system for OS9/6809 some years back.  Among the help topics I included
was a collection of files describing most of the CoCo/OS9 graphics
formats in common use.  The "view" program I wrote uses this.  Probably
the simplest way to display a VEF picture from Basic09 is to include
the (Public-domain) View program and simply:

   SHELL ("view -vef picture");

                      - Tim Kientzle

-*-

84000 13-DEC 02:02 Programmers Den
     RE: VEF (Re: Msg 83990)
     From: EARTHER      To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

     Thanks for the info.  I will check out those issues of The RAINBOW.
 I did manage to write a plain-jane VEF reader/displayer for use with
 the Shanghai game I'm designing for OS-9.  The artwork looks good.
 But the program still has trouble creating solvable dragons (once in
 a while).  I'm hoping to have the project finished and on DELPHI
 next week.  And I'm assuming that everyone has played the game
 before so that I won't have to draw up any rules (just installation
 procedures).

 Shawn Driscoll

 ---------  Is there an X-Wing Game for OS-9?  -----------

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83991 12-DEC 19:07 General Information
     MM/1 Memory Upgrades?
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: ALL

I've heard of two routes for upgrading MM/1 memory from 3meg to 9meg.
Unfortunately, I don't know the current availability.  Does anyone know
of any of the following?
    - An MM/1 vendor with revised backplanes _in_stock_?
    - Whether Mark Griffith is currently marketing his "cheap" IO board
revision?  How much?
    - Whether the information for the IO board revision is available for
those fearless souls willing and able to "roll their own"?

Information appreciated...

-*-

83995 12-DEC 21:00 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Memory Upgrades? (Re: Msg 83991)
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

 > - An MM/1 vendor with revised backplanes _in_stock_?

Not right now, but David Graham (Blackhawk Ent) is taking deposits of $40
to a $95 backplate. When (if) he gets enough, he will be able to get them
made.

 > - Whether Mark Griffith is currently marketing his "cheap" IO board
 > revision?  How much?

Mark has psoted recently that he will perform the "IO Board Hack" which allows
you to stick 4M simms in the IO board sockets. Cost is $50. Mark has a
LIMITED number of IO boards on hand he can loan out for the required two
weeks of turnaround time.

 > - Whether the information for the IO board revision is available for
 > those fearless souls willing and able to "roll their own"?

Yes, Mark will provide you with that information as well.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

84013 13-DEC 20:31 General Information
     RE: MM/1 Memory Upgrades? (Re: Msg 83991)
     From: NIMITZ       To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

Tim,  Mark Griffith has recently announced that he will do the I/O board
hack for $50, or make info available for the roll our own guys.   The
backplanes are
pending financing, hope to have definitive word by the end fo this week.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83992 12-DEC 19:18 General Information
     RE: upgrade cpu for mm1 (Re: Msg 83327)
     From: TIMKIENTZLE  To: TEDJAEGER (NR)

_IF_ you have a little breadboarding experience, it's not too hard to
build your own paddle boards.  A /t3 paddle board requires two MAX232
chips, a handful of capacitors, and the pinouts of the relevant connectors.
My homebrew /t3 board has worked admirably for some time.  As with
many such projects, don't try it unless you know what you're doing,
since you can easily burn up your computer.  If you do know what you're
doing, however, it can give you a full-function serial port fairly cheaply.
(Mine cost about $25 in parts, which would be much less if you already
have some of the pieces in your workbox.)


-*-

84014 13-DEC 20:33 General Information
     RE: upgrade cpu for mm1 (Re: Msg 83992)
     From: NIMITZ       To: TIMKIENTZLE (NR)

Of course, at $35 each with cable, a regular MM/1 paddle board is still a good
buy......


          David M. Graham
          BlackHawk Enterprises, Inc.


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

83997 12-DEC 22:44 Telecom (6809)
     RE: hi speed modem CHEAP (Re: Msg 83883)
     From: THUNDERFNGRS To: WOLFDEN

Yes I was the one who called (and asked about 2nd day air).
I would think you would have lots of inquiries at that price!

-*-

84020 13-DEC 21:33 Telecom (6809)
     RE: hi speed modem CHEAP (Re: Msg 83997)
     From: WOLFDEN      To: THUNDERFNGRS (NR)

Your modem will be sent tommarrow, Tuesday morning... you should get it
by Friday, via Priority mail.

Jim

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84001 13-DEC 04:16 OSK Applications
     RE: SCULPTOR (Re: Msg 83940)
     From: EDELMAR      To: SCWEGERT


 Steve,

 Interesting story behind those copies of SCULPTOR.  A large number of copies
 were sent to a Company on consignment.  If I remember right, MPD's price for
 that version was about $2000.  This Company dealt with Motorola based micro-
 processor software including OS-9 software and they published a magazine
 covering the Motorola microprocessor and related software.  When they went out
 of business, they had some pretty heavy debts.  Apparantly, they had not paid
 for the copies of SCULPTOR they sold or had on hand.  (I don't have both sides
 of the story - only what MPD told me.)  One of their creditors accepted a
 number of copies of SCULPTOR as payment of debt due him but he had no way
 of selling them.  He contacted Fred Brown.  He was willing to sell them at
 any price - he just wanted to recover something.  Fred, in turn, contacted me
 but I informed him that since I was a dealer for MPD, it could strain or even
 sever my relations with MPD if I tried to sell them at a reduced price; that
 I didn't think the market would pay the normal price considering they were
 obselete versions.  Fred and the above creditor set the price at $75.00.  Of
 course, MPD's position is that anyone wanting the Run-Times will pay MPD's
 price regardless of what they paid for the Development packages.

 So you can see, MPD's position is that they took a bath on these copies.
 They also feel that had 'unsatisfactory' relations with several other
 distributors in this country including the subsidiary they set up.  In any
 event, the $250 price was the best I could negotiate with them.

 Ed

-*-

84002 13-DEC 04:58 General Information
     Bad file won't delete
     From: JWILKERSON   To: ALL

I was in edit, and entered some data.  I forgot to leave the space after the
E: prompt, and got an error.  I correctly entered the data then exited.

Later, I discovered the SCRATCH file there, and the file not updated.  Looking
on
my HD, I saw the _data_ as a file on my drive.
 The data is

03: Sears

This file causes an error 211.  Also, my computer is _not_ patched to allow
filenames with a leading digit.  All efforts to delete this file, or even look
at it fail with a 211.  I cannot get it deleted or even look it up to see
whaeit is on my
drive in order to whack the sectors.

Can anyone give me any clues on how to fix this?

Thanks

          -- John

-*-

84005 13-DEC 18:20 General Information
     RE: Bad file won't delete (Re: Msg 84002)
     From: RANDYKWILSON To: JWILKERSON

Assuming that this thing really is a file, which I doubt, you can make it
accessable fairly easily. CHD  to the  directory containing this file, and
do  a "ded ." (ded <dot>). You are  now looking  at the directory file
itself. page through until you find the target, and use ascii edit mode
to change the  name to something legal. Note that you must set the high
bit  on the last char of the new  name. This can  be done  using the  alt
key. Say you want to change the name to  "junk". You would hit "e", <break>,
[move the cursor], "j", "u", "n", <alt>K, <enter>, "w", "y", "q". Also
note.... do NOT verify  the file. :>

 Be very careful before deleting this file. If it is  indeed just bogus
text in the directory file, then it will not point  to a real file, it
will point to  who-knows-what. In this case, REAL damage could be  done
to the file structure and integrity of the  drive.

  Randy

-*-

84038 14-DEC 05:28 General Information
     RE: Bad file won't delete (Re: Msg 84005)
     From: JWILKERSON   To: RANDYKWILSON

   Well, now it gave me an error 241.  Looking at what ded shows, I see a mess
of data _after_ the filename.  Looks like the entire file that I had edited
up to the point the next filename appears.  ALSO, after I logged off Delphi
after posting my origional message, _another_ bad file showed up "Read 1" is
what it is called.  I did have email to read.

I'm still getting error 211s when doing a dir e.    I can try to zero all the
sectors in that file.  A no win situation.  If I do end up messing up my
directory structure, I7ll have go go from a 2 month old backup, and if I don'T
solve this, I'll still have to reformat.

My problem now is.... What _caused_ this.  The first was a malfunction in
edit, But the second.... I did nothing other than call Delphi and shut down
the system.

Thanks
         -- John

-*-

84049 14-DEC 22:37 General Information
     RE: Bad file won't delete (Re: Msg 84038)
     From: WOAY         To: JWILKERSON (NR)

Hi John, Gene Heskett here. I came in a bit late here and missed the hardware
description of your system. Are you osk or os9? I'm os9, and have just retired
a drive that did that to me siince it was new in '88! A Seagate 238r, with
both a WD controller and a Seagate St-11r.  Both of them and the drive seemed
to insist that the FAT was full of zero's from time to time, and would then
proceed to write the incomeing data any place it darn well pleased. I was
using the B&B Xt-RTC kit. I've been using a SCII with 4in1 plus a Maxtor 7120s
now since May of this year, only one similar problem easily fixed since I was
used to doing the fixing, it was created by a neighborhood power failure in
the middle of a download. In reading over the details, if you are os9, and
you zeroed out everything past the filename in that 32 byte slot of the dir,
then you yourself gave the file that sector zero address. In such cases, I
just finish zeroing out that slot, run dcheck to see what it spits out, and
then run "bd" (or ded) to de-allocate the dcheck reported errors. The file
is gone in any event. The question then is how many other files were munged
by the runaway write. If the write actually covered up part of the directory,
the building of a replacement directory can take all nite, I know, I've done
it *many* times. If you intend to recover the files whose directory entry
is now munged (if thats the case) then don't de-allocate anything yet, but
use the list from dcheck to point ded at those sectors and see what they are.
If you can correlate the file sectors with an fd sector, then the directory
entry can be rebuilt by pointing the last three bytes of that directory
slot at the address (in sectors) of the fd sector which in turn points at
the file. All in hexidecimal of course. Once you get the file structure os9
levels 1 and 2 use committed to memory, the rerst of itso much sweat and tears,
followed by a good feeling when you can run dcheck
again with no reported errors. dcheck has one gotcha tho, if the root directory
has been extended by the number of entries going beyond the 54th entry, then
dcheck will NOT check those files in the extended portion of the root directory
only. The cure is easy, but must be done immediatly after formatting the
drive. Use ded to make the directory MUCH longer than its default 7 sectors
as formatted. I here somebody saying 8, sorry, the 8th sector is used as the
descriptor sector. I made mine $27 sectors long a long time ago, have never
filled it up and never had any further problems with dcheck either. Note
that when extending a directory with ded, its the fd sector you edit, and
then allocate the extension sectors added by hand to the size value in
bytes $13-14 of the fd sector for the root directory. The FAT occupies that
space from sector zero to the size of the drive in sectors/8 in bytes.
The fd sector for the root dir is the next sector after the FAT.  One of
these days I'll dismantle dcheck and see if I can figure out why, but this
is that fix in the meantime.  Cheers, Gene

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84028 14-DEC 00:03 General Information
     NewsLetters
     From: THESCHU      To: ALL


      Greetings from the President of Glenside CoCo Club.
   My Name is ( and always shall be ), Brian Schubring. I wish to invite all
  who would like to submit an article to this clubs newsletter please feel
  free to do so. When you do, please forward to me > THESCHU <, your article
  so I my get it to the editor.
    Also since I'm here let me mention that all those who are Glenside
  members, PLEASE check your subscription to be sure that you are up to date.
  That will be found on your latest newsletter address label, top row last
  number on the right. if it says '93, you need to renew. See info in your
  newsletter to do so. If it says '94 your alright.

      Fare-U-well till next time,
                                 Brian Schubring  GCCC



-*-

84035 14-DEC 02:35 General Information
     RE: NewsLetters (Re: Msg 84028)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: THESCHU

Hi, Brian!

 > My Name is ( and always shall be ), Brian Schubring.

I'm glad!  :)

 > I wish to invite all
 > who would like to submit an article to this clubs newsletter please
 > feel free to do so. When you do, please forward to me > THESCHU <, your
 > article so I my get it to the editor.

Writing an article for the Glenside newsletter is actually a pretty
prestigeous thing.  The mailing list of Glenside members is huge..
hundreds of members! This means getting an article in the Glenside
newsletter gives you a pretty big reading audience.  Even bigger than
some of the magazines that are currently supporting our computers!


  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

84053 14-DEC 23:44 General Information
     RE: NewsLetters (Re: Msg 84035)
     From: THESCHU      To: JOELHEGBERG

  Hello Joel,
 You're right on that point, BiIG membership. It does have it's advantages
if you or somone has something to say. Hey thanks for your support !!!

 Brian > THESCHU <

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84029 14-DEC 00:04 General Information
     OS-9 and the Information Superhighway
     From: BOISY        To: ALL

For those of you who watch CNN on cable (NOT headline news), the program
MoneyLine just reported (about 10:50p) on the announcement today by
Bellcore on the cooperation of some dozen companies on the national
information infrastructure.  If you happen to see the report, look
closely at the head table.  You will see a man sitting there with
a moustache while another man is standing up, talking about the
announcement.  The man sitting at the table is Ken Kaplan.

Microware was one of the companies selected for Bellcore's Collaboratory
on the Information Highway, although we didn't get mentioned by name.

-*-

84036 14-DEC 02:35 General Information
     RE: OS-9 and the Information Superhighwa (Re: Msg 84029)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: BOISY

Boisy,

 > a moustache while another man is standing up, talking about the
 > announcement.  The man sitting at the table is Ken Kaplan.
 >
 > Microware was one of the companies selected for Bellcore's Collaboratory
 > on the Information Highway, although we didn't get mentioned by name.

Wow, fantastic!  That puts Microware in a very strategic position for
the future!  That is very exciting news, indeed!



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84032 14-DEC 00:43 General Information
     Bellcore announcement
     From: BOISY        To: ALL

This is a UPI report on the Bellcore announcement.
--
   MORRISTOWN, N.J. (UPI) -- Bellcore announced Monday it will seek a central
role in the development of the "information superhighway" through collaborative
research projects with corporations and research laboratories.
   The consortium, owned by the seven Baby Bells, said it has created a
"Collaboratory on Information Infrastructure" to research and build prototype
projects to make it practical for consumers to use the upgraded networks.
   The companies involved in research projects with include: Capital Cities/ABC,

Inc. and ABC News; Digital Equipment Corp.; Hewlett-Packard Co.; JCPenney; Los
Alamos National Laboratory; The Media Lab at MIT; Microware Systems Corp.;
Northern Telecom and WilTel.
   The Baby Bells -- Ameritech, Bell Atlantic, BellSouth, Nynex, Pacific
Telesis, Southwestern Bell and U S West -- will also provide support to the
Bellcore project.
   The move is designed to make Bellcore the architect for the technical
standards to be used in telecommunications and cable networks as the once-rival
industries begin to use digital technology to merge their capabilities.
   "We hope to make a contribution to the on-going nationwide effort to develop
technologies that will make the emerging national information infrastructure
practical," said Lanny Smoot, executive director of the Collaboratory.
   Smoot said some to the services expected to come on line include electronic
shopping malls, collaborative electronic education and distance learning, access

to multimedia information, electronic libraries, multimedia messaging,
multimedia games and interactive multimedia entertainment.

-*-

84037 14-DEC 04:47 General Information
     RE: Bellcore announcement (Re: Msg 84032)
     From: BROWN80      To: BOISY

Grrrreeeaaaaatt!  This is where the future of computing is really at.  Make
me think that I'm still using the right system.
                      John Brown

-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84039 14-DEC 05:47 General Information
     Satanic HD files from hell
     From: JWILKERSON   To: RANDYKWILSON

   Well, I zeroed out one odd file.  The other one, I zeroed all data after
the filename.  Then I was able to do a dir e.  The file was located at sector 0.

Then I tried to delete it with again no success, so I zeroed it out all the way,

then made some dummy files to fill places _hopefully_ in the directory.  Then
I'll resort the directory and kill the test files.

Dcheck came out clean.  I'll run ccheck on it and see if that comes up with
anything
bad.  Hopefully, I'm okay now, other than the cause for all this.

      -- john

-*-

84040 14-DEC 14:40 Programmers Den
     Database in C
     From: FRANCALCRAFT To: ALL

I finally got around to typing in the database program from the last RAINBOW,
and ran into a problem. The program was in 5 pieces. I took the 4 pieces after
the main segment, and compiled them down to the .r stage, then tried to compile
the first piece and link the other 4, plus cgfx.l. At the link stage, I got the
message: "Too Many Libraries". How did the author intend people to link the
whole collection together?
  I did solve the problem, by merging the 4 subordinate parts together in pairs.

I also found an error in the listings, where an integer variable was followed
by a single minus sign.  This caused an error message. The fix was to add a
second minus sign.
  Surely the program would not have 5 pieces if there was no way to get that
many to link together??

-*-

84050 14-DEC 22:58 General Information
     WAV file format
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: ALL

I would like to know the format of a WAV file, ie, MS-Windows Sound clip
file. Any help appreciated.

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

84059 15-DEC 02:47 General Information
     RE: WAV file format (Re: Msg 84050)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: COLORSYSTEMS (NR)

Zack,

 > I would like to know the format of a WAV file, ie, MS-Windows Sound clip
 > file. Any help appreciated.

Greg Law posted a msg on the internet a while back on the WAV format.
I'll email you a copy, as I saved it for just such an occasion!  :)



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84051 14-DEC 23:14 General Information
     WAV to IFF converter?
     From: COLORSYSTEMS To: ALL

Anyone know how of a WAV to IFF converter program for OS9?

------------------------------------
 Zack C Sessions
 ColorSystems

 "I am Homer of Borg, prepare to be assimi ... OOOOHHH, DOUGHNUTS!"


-*-

84060 15-DEC 02:47 General Information
     RE: WAV to IFF converter? (Re: Msg 84051)
     From: JOELHEGBERG  To: COLORSYSTEMS (NR)

Zack,

 > Anyone know how of a WAV to IFF converter program for OS9?

I believe MPLAY will load in WAV format files and you can then save the
sample in IFF format.



  -- Joel Mathew Hegberg.

 Delphi   : JOELHEGBERG
 GEnie    : j.hegberg
 Internet : JoelHegberg@delphi.com


-*-

End of Thread.

-*-

84052 14-DEC 23:36 General Information
     CoCo Museum
     From: BOISY        To: ALL

Today, Microware had an employee rummage sale, clearing out old
equipment (old terminals, OS-9 boxes, drives, etc.)


Among the equipment were several prototype CoCo 3's which were used to
develop the CoCo 3 ROM and OS-9 Level Two.  It occurred to me that
most of us would consider this "sacred."  I think a neat idea would
be to set these old CoCo's up in some type of "museum."  Anybody
have any good ideas on this?  Perhaps Chicago would be a good place
to have this "shrine to the might CoCo's" since the Fest is there
on a consistent basis every year.

There was some other paraphanalia related to CoCo as well, and that
could be added to the "collection."

Thoughts?

-*-


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