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23 ==============================================
24 
25 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
26 
27   Well good patrons .........
28 as of yet I have not seen any comments or suggestions for a place to 
29 congregate for the NON-PIZZA party.....
30 has the interest vanished in that pursuit ???????????????????????????????
31 
32 
33      Do we have any volunteers to coordinate this venture   ?????
34 
35 ::::::::::::::::::Alex ( very tired ):::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
36 Here's one vote for Hayden's Island--but tell us how to get there, Alex!
37 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
38 In reply to Leonard and Mikey, I'd like
39 to make a few observations.  Leonard 
40 seems to have a propensity to cite
41 "official" sources for his data, like 
42 retired military officers and Congres-
43 sional hearings.  Some one a while back
44 this board said 1984 was completely off
45 for our situation.  Official sources
46 gave us an excellent example of NEW-
47 s
48 SPEAK during the invasion of Grenada.
49 Reagan and UN Ambassador were for
50 calling the invasion a "rescue mission"
51 while reporters were banned from the 
52 island.  There has been a virtual 
53 blackout of news from Grenada on how
54 Reagan's installed gov't is restoring
55 "democracy", altho we do know that 
56 public meetings are banned, arrest with-
57 out warrants are allowed and there is
58 press censorship.  Also Reagan calls
59 the Marines in the Middle East 
60 "peacekeepers."  Ronald Reagan is the 
61 perfect president to take us into 1984
62 with his public relations and acting
63 abilities bent toward telling us that
64 war is peace, freedom is slavery and
65 ignorance is strength.  To the person
66 who said 1984 didn't apply,  when did
67 you last say something contrary to the
68 government position, try to really 
69 exercise freedom of press and speech?
70 You won't find out how free or unfree 
71 you are until you have to exercise 
72 those freedoms.  Then you will find 
73 them under attack and limited unless you
74 have a lot of money and are saying the
75 approve things.  
76 One other item.  Recently Reagan held
77 a little ceremony to award Richard
78 Helms the National Security Medal for
79 "exceptional meritorious service".  
80 Helms was head of the CIA when the 
81 democratically elected government of 
82 Salvador Allende of Chile was 
83 overthrown.  Helms was thrown out of
84 office because he wouldn't reveal even
85 to Congress the involvement of the CIA
86 with the overthrow.  The CIA funneled
87 $8 million and other resources into the
88 overthrow.  Helms said at the ceremony 
89 that he felt exonerated and observed
90  that the CIA didn't really have any
91 political constituency,  that it was 
92 either protected by the presidency or 
93 it wasn't and that the temptation to
94 use covert operations in a democratic
95 country was a "dilemma."  
96 As I said, Reagan is a great one to
97 take us into 1984.  And I'm not 
98 
99 surprised that Sagan is "refuted" at
100 Congressional hearing by "experts."
101 
102 +-+-+-+-+-+-+ BLUE COLLAR +-+-+-+-+-+-+-
103 
104 Agreed. If "experts" are to be quoted, we should hear who these experts are.
105 If "high officials" are used to refute or support a statement, how can we
106 accept the comments if we can't verify to our own satisfaction the qualifi-
107 cations of the un-named "officials"? I can make any statement I want if I
108 can use quotes from "experts" that only exist in my imagination and don't
109 have to supply any more information. Actually, I have it on high authority
110 from a knowlegeable expert at NASA that the moon is made of green cheese,
111 and the entire space program has actually been a lie, all the films, pictures,
112 et cetera, were shot in a secret studio in Los Gatos, California. He also
113 told me that John Kennedy is actually alive and living in sin in Bolivia
114 with Amelia Earhardt, Judge Crater, and Adolf Hitler. And I've proven this
115 by quoting an expert, so nyah, nyah, nyah!
116 
117 (me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)(me)
118 HEE HEE HO HO HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!a!!
119 ****************************************************************
120        **BILL THE CAT LIVES** !!!!!!!!!
121 
122 ******************FROM: THOSE WHO KNOW******************************************
123 
124 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
125                   We sailed away. We walked two
126               thousand miles and then we slipped
127               away. We looked so hard, but couldn't
128               seem to find just what the world was
129               for. Now we know just what the journey's
130               for.
131 
132                   Looking out to the stars. Think about
133               what you are. Whay 
134                  Looking out to the stars. Think about
135               what you are. What do they think of you?
136               Animals in thier zoo. Thay haven't got the
137               time. Landing is not on thier minds. How
138               do we have the nerve? We're animals in 
139               preserve.
140 
141                  They watch us all. They're only making
142               sure that we don't trip and fall. They
143               look so hard. Bbut they can't tell us why
144               they're here and just what for? Becuase
145               they don't know who opened up the door.
146 
147                  How can we find out more? Who owns
148               the keyless door? Where does the circle
149               end? Who are the unwatched men? Where do
150               we go from here? Faith is a fading fear.
151               Life is a waiting room. I hope they don't
152               call me soon.
153 
154                  How much more do you reink you
155               know than a lover does about who's behind
156               the door?
157 
158 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MERLYN<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
159 
160 OF
161 
162 list
163 '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''`````````````````````````````````````````````
164 Who says their (we or whomever) are making warrantless arrest in Grenada?
165 Why not a rescue mission, would rather they share your privelege of speach or 
166 the privelege of legance to a military power?
167 
168 Why would anyone that does not use his own name wish to meet with others for
169 food.  Will all where masks?
170 
171                                   George Lurker
172 ````````````````````````````````````'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
173 [][][][][][][][][][][][]   2146   12/1/83   [][][][][][][][][][]
174 
175 Preposterous !!!!!
176 Los Gatos is not big enough to support such an operation.  
177 Perhaps in San Jose, where they have the dirigible hangers for the
178 wide shots ?
179 
180 PAM:  Check after sunday next, I will have some new DLs.
181 
182 [][][][][][][][][][][][]   DJJ   [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
183 
184 
185 
186 Hey there,
187 I decided to turn on the ol' modem and give you guys a call,
188 since I seemingly dropped out of sight to go to Western
189 Washington University in Bellingham.  (Steve Neighorn, take
190 note.  How's your Mod I?)
191 But alas, phone rates are heavy this time of night, so I think
192 I shall leave you with this:
193 
194 Never mind.
195 -Andy Gillcrist, 2243 12/1/83-
196 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
197 
198 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
199 HEY! Somebody else used my boarder. Isn't anything sacred anymore!
200 OK Leonard...I have a question for you. Where did you get this weapon's effect
201 chart you speak of? One the subject of civil defense. I have been privy to
202 a certain amount of local civil defense, through a former civil defense
203 worker, who now works for another department in the city of Portland. Let me
204 clarify this source by saying I did not make this up(what in the hell would
205 I have to gain?), he is not a disgrunteled employee, and if you don't believe
206 what I am saying, that's your business. But damnation I get sick of people
207 who go "nay nay nay"! Anyway, the state of Portland's civil defense
208 readyness is a sad state of affairs indeed. Rocky Butte, which has a semi
209 complete complex built for city 'officials' has fallen under heavy budget
210 setbacks. It seems like the people who make the desicions on where the money
211 goes don't really care about 'the day after'. One thing I thought was funny
212 in 'TDA', is that the prez survived, of course. It kind of reminds me of
213 'Dr. Stranglove' when Peter Sellers is telling the other generals about how
214 desirable life underground in bunkers would be, especially when he started
215 telling them how they would have to re-populate the earth. Back to the subject,
216 food stores that are supposed to be kept up in and around the city have been
217 for the most part abandonded. City Civil Defense now consists of a small
218 office staffed by a few people who are probably kept on for the sake of
219 politics. In essence, there is NO organized civil defense. It will be everyone
220 who is left for him or her self. I am not saying I condone the actions of some
221 of the survivalists, but I think I can see their point of view. Imagine a
222 nuclear war sans 'Nuclear Winter'. A few survivors head out on hwy 26 in search
223 of a better place than the gutted city. In Eastern Oregon they encounter a
224 group of well-fortified building(well fortified enough to keep people like
225 these out). These people are hungry, and desperate. They will of course try
226 to get into these buildings. They will act like animals. Look at the cabbage
227 doll incidents. The survivalists inside the building had enough thought to prepa
228 re for the worse. They have food, water, supplies, and yes, ammunition, to keep
229 out city dwellers from taking what isn't theirs. Total anarchy. If nuclear
230 war is going to be like 'TDA', the survivalists will be the only survivors. I
231 imagine I'll get quite a few negative responses to this, but I guess that is
232 the price for expressing your opinion. Take it away Leonard and others...
233 ||||||
234 PS To Jody. I'll talk to you more at the party. See you then!
235 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Luke ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
236  RE: TDA
237 
238  "TO BE OR NOT TO BE, THAT'S THE QUESTION"
239           *********THE CRUSIFIER*******************************************
240 **************************************************************************]
241 ----------------------------------------------------------------
242  LUKE: MATBE YOU WILL AND THEN AGAIN MAYBE YOU WONT. WE'LL HAVE TO SEE
243 THEN. I THOUGHT IT WAS A LITTLE JUVINILLE TO BE GOING 'NYAH NYAH NYAH' 
244 MYSELF BUT IT WAS A LITTLE FUNNY. DON'T YOU HAVE A SENCE OF HUMOR??
245 (no, I didn't think so.)
246 
247 ----------------------------------------JODY------------------------------------
248 
249 Luke --- you're just a little off on your reference
250 to a civil defense hide out for city officials at
251 Rocky Butte. It was actually built at Kelly Butte
252 back in the bomb shelter '50s. And rather than having
253 fallen into a state of disrepair, it has been converted
254 to the communications center for city & county police
255 and ambulance dispatchers, so it's really not being
256 put to an unsuitable use.
257 
258 Historically, Portland had one of the bigger civil
259 defense programs -- with the sirens that went off
260 every noon and kids in schools having practice drills 
261 putting their heads under the hands (honest!). There was even
262 at one time an evactuation of the city the was given
263 national news coverage, but only because it created
264 a massive traffic jam. 
265 
266 Portland had, and probably still has, a system of
267 controlling the traffic lights, so that all the
268 outward bound signals can be locked on green while
269 all cross traffic is locked on red. It once was
270 tripped accidentally during morning rush hour and
271 was great for those coming from Gresham to Portland
272 but lousy for those trying to go up 39th.
273 
274 Civil defense was dealt a resounding death blow in
275 Oregon in about 1962 (or '63). That was the year of
276 the Columbus Day storm. It wiped out all power in Portland
277 and Salem and completely blocked all vehicular traffic
278 because of downed trees. People assumed this was a
279 classic "civil" defense scenario, even though it
280 was not nuclear. They expected the large civil
281 defense operation to organize relief, to coordinate
282 emergency measures, to broadcast information, etc.
283 None of it happened. Relief came from the people
284 themselves, the city governments, and the utility
285 companies primarily. Civil defense was widely 
286 criticized afterwards and never again was able to
287 justify budgets as big as what they had previously
288 gotten.
289 
290 The feeling seemed to be, if they couldn't handle
291 a wind storm they probably wouldn't be a lot of 
292 help in a nuclear attack.
293 
294               - POPS -
295 
296 **********************************************************
297 Blue Collar:  I didn't give the officer's name because I am still trying to find
298 the magazine the interview was in (ya see it's like this... I get about 12 
299 different magazines every month. I only have "proper" files for 4 of them. The 
300 rest are all stacked in corners etc. I AM LOOKING. When I find it I will not
301 only give his name, I will give DIRECT QUOTES.)
302 
303 As for the Weapons effect Charts, part was from an article on the Plowshare
304 program, part was from a Nuclear war simulation & part was from other sources 
305 I had notes from the other sources on the back of the weapons effect chart from
306 the simulation. If you wish I can see about getting the "official
307 charts", but it may take some time. (while _I_ am quite confident that my
308 figures are within a factor of 2, I can see that _YOU_ might have some doubts).
309 To avoid argument YOU had better tell ME what sources you will accept for the
310 data! There are a couple of Army field manuals I intend to order anyway that may
311 fit the bill. 
312 Here is a partial refiguring of the causualty radius for that 4 Gigaton Blast. 
313 Since NO chart I have ever seen goes that high I will use the square cube law to
314 extrapolate from an existing chart. 
315 4 Gigaton =  4 Million Kilo
316 so by square cube law effects of a 4 Gton blast will be 100 times those of a 
317 4 kton. According to FM 101-31-1 (Staff Officers' Field Manual  Nuclear Weapons 
318 Employment Doctrine And Procedures) Appendix E (Analysis of freindly Vulner-
319 ability) a 3 kton blast will cause 5% causualties among troops in the open at a
320 range of 2000 meters, a 5 kton at 2500 meters. Lets say a 4 kton will do it
321 at 2250 meters. Okay, 2250 x 100 = 225000 meters or 225 kilometers(!). Gee, I
322 maybe I did drop a decimal! However that cavity size figure was based on a 
323 Plowshare test and still stands!
324 Note by the way that the "5%" distance for a 1 kton blast is 1200 meters, but 
325 for a 1 Mton blast is 23,000 meters (seems to go up faster than
326 square cube but slower
327 than inverse square? hmmm.) The increase varies from 19.16666 for exposed 
328 personnel to 3.125 for tank crews. (quick, where can I get a tank!)
329 Luke: (I think) I am all to well aware of the state of Civil Defense. Another 
330 problem related to the ones you mentioned is that what few funds ARE 
331 appropriated are usually diverted to "more important" needs. 
332 ALL:  When buying "survival" books - WATCH OUT- I have one book I paid $5-10
333 for (don't remember exact amount) 1/3 of it is reprints of old CD do-it-yourself
334 shelter plans (many of which say "Kit # XYZ, see your local hardware store to 
335 order" of course no one has produced the kit in 15 years but...)
336 Much of the rest turns out to have been copied word-for-word from government
337 publications. If I'd looked thru it carefully BEFORE I bought it
338 I wouldn't have. (the documents in question MIGHT have cost me $2.00)
339 So, just as with anything else check it out THEN decide.
340 Finally, as to that 20 Mton blast someone was saying Portland is due for. Here 
341 are some figures FOR A 20-MEGATON BLAST from that book.
342 Zone A-Complete destruction    5 miles 
343 Zone B-Buildings are so badly damaged that they must be demolished and replaced.
344         10 miles
345 Zone C-Buildings must be vacated for repair    15 miles
346 Zone D-Buildings can be used while being repaired  20 miles
347    (the above followed square cube EXACTLY when I checked ie for a 20 kton 
348 divide all the figures by 10)
349 Thermal effects (from an airburst on a CLEAR DAY)(fat chance of THAT in Portland
350 28 miles-3rd degree burns  32 miles-2nd degree burns   44 miles-1st degree burns
351 (1st degree burns are your basic sunburn)(divide ranges by 20 for effects of 20 
352 kiloton blast)
353 Ionizing Radiation
354 2.3 miles  1000 roentgen (you'll be sick within an hour almost certainly die)
355 2.6 miles  300 roentgen (sick within the day, 20% deaths within 2-6 weeks, 
356                          survivors convalescent for 3 months)
357 3.2 miles 30 roentgens  (no obvious effects, possible long term effects)
358 (since 5 miles is the "total" destruction radius, I think we can safely ignore 
359 the non-fallout radiation.)
360 excerpted from Nuclear Survival by Everett Moore
361 (some comments added by me)
362 _______________________________Leonard__________________________________________
363 
364 Anybody know where I can get the new Vietnamees cookbook
365   "1001 Ways to Wok Your Dog?"
366    -------------------------
367 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
368 [][][][][][][][][][]   1154   12/2/83   [][][][][][][][][]
369 LEONARD: (OR ANYONE)  Do you know where I can find a copy of level 7 ?  Not
370 the Library, and not a new bookstore.  Powell ?  Do they have a cat. system?
371 
372 thanks.
373 
374 [][][][][][][][][][]   DJJ   [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
375 
376 
377 
378   
379 *************************************************************
380 
381 Dear Mr. FORREAL:
386 
387 Upon receiving your slanderous attacks upon the character of 
388 myself and my friends I chose to limit my participation in 
389 this august forum.
390 
391 I assumed, apparently wrongly, that in my enthusiasm for the 
392 potential of this novel form of expression I had violated 
393 some unexpressed taboo. I waited for you to offer some 
394 inspiring example of the appropriate high quality entry 
395 you so arrogantly demand. None was forthcoming.
396 
397 I tire of my vigil. If you don't offer some example of your 
398 brillance soon I have no alternative but to write you off as 
399 a fool.
400 
401 
402                      Cordially
403 
404                      LeRoy McKane
405                      Computer Club President
406                      Oregon State Penitentiary
407 
408 
409 **************************************************************
410 
411 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
412 
416 
417 LEONARD: IF WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE BLOWN UP ANYWAY WHAT 
418 DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE HOW BIG THE RESULTING HOLE WILL BE?
419 
420 
421 '''''''''''''''''''''''''GROUND ZERO ZACHERY'''''''''''''''
422 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
423 WELL NOW!
424  
425 I VOTE FOR THE PLACE ON HAYDEN ISLAND. THE BUS GOES TO VANCOUVER AND STOPS,
426 I THINK, AT HAYDEN ISLAND. WHY DON'T THOSE FOR WHOM THIS IS A CONCERN CALL
427 THEM AND FIND OUT. THEN THOSE OF US WHO WILL BE DRIVING CAN ARRANGE TO GIVE
428 LIFTS IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THAT. THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE A REAL
429 PROBLEM, I THINK.
430 
431 I GUESS THIS SATURDAY IS OUT. HOW ABOUT NEXT SATURDAY? THE OTHER PLACES
432 THAT WERE MENTIONED ARE TAVERNS AND BARS AND THUS DO NOT FIT THE BILL FOR
433 ALL OF US. LETS DO IT BEFORE IT SNOWS. ALSO RE: DOM. I'D LIKE TO WAIT
434 TOO BUT SUSPECT HE HAS CHANGED HIS NOM-DE-TERMINAL. ALSO RE: LEADERSHIP.
435 THIS PARTY WAS MY IDEA AND I AM DOING WHAT I CAN TO CONTINUE TO PRESS THE
436 ISSUE BUT YOU ALL ARE NOT EXACTLY THE AVERAGE WELL ORGANIZED HERD, YOU
437 KNOW.
438 
439 PAM, MIKEY, LEONARD. WILL RESPOND LATER TONIGHT TO REQUESTS FOR INFO/DOUBTS
440 ABOUT MY SANITY ETC. HAVE JUST RECEIVED CALL FROM STRANDED PERSON NEEDING
441 RIDE AND MUST GO NOW.
442 
443 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PARTY'N MARTY HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
444 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
445 
446   Good Sir  < Hrothgar >
447      You are officialy nominiated by my-self to coordinate this conclave
448 of Poets & Warriors .
449 
450   To get to MT Bottle & Deli  - From Portland 
451 
452       I-5 North .... take first right off F-way on Hayden Isl. ( the only 
453 one ) ....then next right ( Tomahawk Dr. ) then next right ( parall to 
454 I-5 you should be headed south by now ) follow the road around  under the 
455  bridge take your first right ( into parking lot ) 
456               And ....... there it is.
457 
458          on your left ..Cal-Marine  on your right Ye olde State booze shoppe
459 
460 :::::::::::::::::::::::Alex::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
461 Did anyone else receive the nice letter from U.S. Bankruptcy Court announcing
462 November 18 protection of   JRT Systems  (the Pascal rascal) under Chapter 11?
463 Ah, mail order...Dave
464 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
465 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 Dec 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
466   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   19:35   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
467      Bravo, Hroth & Alex!  Not only have we a willing leader; we have 
468 established the place for this motley crew to converge upon--what, next
469 Saturday?  I have no quarrel with that--but lets take a quick survey.
470 All in favor raise your hand!  Okay, all opposed must bellow "Nay!"
471 at the extremity of your lungs so we all can hear you.  There, did
472 YOU hear anything?  Neither did I; so Saturday December 10th it is!
473 (No?  Better speak up fast, and address our local Colonel with your
474 appeal, for I, for one, have had enough of this hemming & hawing!)
475      Regarding the discontented murmering over whatever subject is
476 prevailing, I ask the complainers to consider the effect of their 
477 grumbling:  if your intent was to stifle all controversy, all lively
478 discussion, its effective!  But tell me, O negative voices, why you
479 come to the Inn?  Surely it is not for the good ale, or the crackling
480 fire that once burned in the hearth?  You do not come to enjoy the
481 silence, do you?  Yet your dissent has caused the friendly roar to
482 wither to the state it is now:  a few antagonists argue fiercely in the
483 corner; haphazard pieces of song trail out of a figure who wandered in
484 out of the rain; a joke causes a brief ripple of laughter...but for
485 the most part, the patrons sit in glum solitude...
486 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     d     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
487 HAY YOU GUYS (GIRLS INCLUDED)! HOW DOES ONE GO ABOUT JOINING
488 THE CONVERSATION? I GOT YOUR NUMBER FROM A FRIEND WHO IN TURN
489 GOT IT FROM A FRIEND, ETC, ETC. ANYHOW, I'M ANDRE BJORNSKOV
490 IN LAKE OSWEGO, AND I7LL CALL IN FROM TIME TO TIME, TO KEEP
491 ABREAST OF THE WAR! I WOULDN'T MIND JOINING EITHER.
492 THANKS, ANDRE.
493 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
494 WELL NOW!
495 
496 O.K., THIS IS IT - SATURDAY, DECEMBER 10, THE M.T. BOTTLE&DELI !!!
497 ABOUT 2PM WOULD GIVE US TIME TO GET BACK FROM CHURCH, WORK OFF OUR
498 FRI NITE HANGOVERS OR WHATEVER, WOULD IT NOT? THIS WILL BE THE OFFICIAL
499 BWMS PARTY DATE AND TIME.
500 
501 MIKEY: COULD YOU PLEASE PUT THIS DATE&TIME INTO THE DISK HEADER FOR A WHILE?
502 
503 PAM:      ...hrothgar, taking the throne,led
504          the danes to such glory that comrades and kinsmen
505          swore by his sword, and young men swelled
506          His armies, and he thought of greatness and resolved
507          to build a hall that would hold his mighty
508          band, and reach higher toward heaven than anything
509          that had ever been known to the sons of men.
510          And in that hall he'd divide the spoils
511          of their victories, to old and young what they'd earned
512          in battle, but leaving the common pastures untouched, and
513          taking no lives. The work was ordered, the timbers tied
514          and shaped, by the hosts that Hrothgar ruled. It was 
515          quickly ready, that most beautiful of buildings, built
516          as He'd wanted, and then He
517          whose name was obeyed all over the earth named it
518          Herot
519 
520 this is a guy who knew how to party.
521 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
522 P.S. HAVE SPENT LAST 2 HOURS LOOKING THROUGH MAGAZINES FOR 4000 MEGATON
523 REFERENCE WITH NO LUCK YET. MUST NEXT GO TO GARAGE. AM MAKING HONEST EFFORT.
524 HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT MY MEMORY ON THIS ONE THOUGH AS ARTICLE WAS LENGTHY
525 AND REITERATED THE PARTICULARS A NUMBER OF TIMES. MOST NOTABLE WAS RUSSIAN
526 BOAST THAT THEY COULD HAVE MADE IT MUCH BIGGER BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 
527 POINTLESS. NOTE THAT THIS EXPLOSION WAS REPORTED AS HAVING BEEN RECORDED
528 IN THE WEST. ALSO, SIZE OF HOLE MADE IS FRUITLESS SPECULATION AS THE
529 DEVICE WAS SET OFF ON OR IN A MILE THICK ICE SHELF. THIS WOULD JUST FILL UP
530 AND FREEZE AGAIN. AS FAR AS CREATING A VOLCANO IS CONCERNED, THE THING
531 WOULD FIRST HAVE TO PUNCH THROUGH A MILE OF ICE, A COUPLE MORE OF WATER,
532 AND FORTY MILES OF ROCK TO DO THAT, AS WELL AS HAVING TO BE SET OFF OVER
533 A UPWELLING CONVECTION CURRENT, I SHOULD THINK. ALSO NOTE THAT SHAPED
534 NUCLEAR CHARGES ARE POSSIBLE.
535    AS TO THE SIZE OF CHARGES TO BE USED, WE OUGHT TO NOTE AGAIN ANOTHER
536 REASON WHY THE RUSSIANS USE BIGGER ONES THAN US. THAT IS THAT THE RUSSIAN
537 CITIES ARE MORE SPREAD OUT THAN OURS. WE CONSEQUENTLY HAVE A STRATEGY
538 BUILD AROUND A GREATER NUMBER OF SMALLER WEAPONS INTENDED TO BLANKET
539 AN AREA. ON THE OTHER HAND, AMERICAN CITIES ARE NICELY CONCENTRATED, AND
540 MAKE EXCELLENT TARGETS FOR WEAPONS IN THE 10-100 MEGATON RANGE.
541    HOW ABOUT THIS GAME: LETS CALL IT "FRY AMERICA"
542 THE GAME BOARD IS 2000 BY THREE THOUSAND MILES. THE SQUARES ON THIS BOARD
543 ARE 25 MILES ON A SIDE. AT THE CORNERS OF EACH SQUARE, 25 MILES APART,
544 DROP AN H-BOMB. THIS WILL REQUIRE LESS THAN 10,000 BOMBS. THE FURTHEST
545 AWAY FROM A BOMB ANY INHABITANT CAN GET WILL BE AT THE CENTER OF A SQUARE.
546 THIS DISTANCE IS GIVEN BY THE HYPOTENEUSE OF TWO SIDES OF THE SQUARE, THE
547 RESULT DIVIDED BY TWO. AT THE CENTER OF THE SQUARE WE FIND THAT WE ARE
548 SURROUNDED BY FOUR NEARBY NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS, AT A DISTANCE OF
549 17 2/3 MILES. GETTING A LITTLE WARM OUT HERE, ISN'T IT? THEN THERE ARE 
550 VISIBLE IN THE FURTHER DISTANCE 10 MORE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AT THE NEXT
551 FURTHER OUT INTERSECTIONS OF THE GRID. WEATHERS GETTING POSITIVELY
552 BEASTLY, ISN'T IT. 
553    SOMEONE TELL ME HOW YOU CAN FIND A LIVING THING LEFT IN THE U.S.
554 (OR USSR) AFTER THAT GAME HAS BEEN PLAYED. 
555    NOTE THAT THE TOTAL NUMBER OF WEAPONS ON BOTH SIDES IS OVER 
556 TWICE THE NUMBER REQUIRED FOR OUR GAME TO BE PLAYED ON BOTH CONTINENTS.
557 SO EACH SIDE COULD LOSE MORE THAN FIFTY PERCENT OF THE WEAPONS AND STILL
558 PLAY A COMPLETE GAME.
559    QUESTION #1: WHAT IS THE TEMP. AT THE CENTER OF THE SQUARE.
560    QUESTION #2: HOW MUCH OF THE OXYGEN IN THE ATMOSPHERE WILL BE CONSUMED
561      IN THE COMBUSTION OF ALL THE HYDROCARBONS (INCLUDING US) ON THE 
562      SURFACE OF THE TWO NATIONS (AND EUROPE)
563    QUESTION #3: WHAT QUANTITY OF DUST, SMOKE, ETC WILL BE IN THE ATMOSPHERE
564      AFTER THE EXPLOSIONS.
565    QUESTION #4: GIVEN THAT QUANTITY, AND THE DATA THAT THE ERUPTION OF
566      KRAKATAU IN 1883 EJECTED ~20 CUBIC KILOMETERS OF ASH WHICH
567      RESULTED IN LOWERING TEMPERATURES ~1 DEGREE FOR MONTHS AFTERWARD,
568      AND GIVEN THAT MEASUREMENTS OF OTHER VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS YIELD
569      SIMILAR AND FAIRLY CONSISTANT FIGURES OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS FOR
570      VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS (SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN 11/83, "THE ERUPTION OF
571      KRAKATAU", P 172)  (WHEW!)
572 
573      WELL THEN: HOW COLD WILL THE ASHES GET? (OR MAYBE, HOW COLD WILL THE
574     TAHITIANS GET)
575    
576    MAYBE THE HEAT IS EASIER TO CALCULATE? LEONARD?
577 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
578 I volunteer to do the calculations of the freeziness caused by a massive 
579 nuclear exchange.  First, as I recall, there are about 50,000 warheads in the world.  Assume that the average size is
580 1 Mton  (this is probably an over-estimate), so the total amount of explosive energy is 50 Gtons.  Now, as I recall from
581 somewhere, for every equivalent kton of blast there will arise .5 ktons of crud into the atmosphere in a ground burst.
582 So we can assume that a complete, 100% effective set of ground bursts will result in 25Gtons of stuff in the air.
583 And 25 Gtons is 2.3 E13 kilograms, or if you assume an average specific gravity of 3.5, then an equivalent volume of 6.5 E9 
584 cubic meters, or 6.5 cubic kilometers, which would be about 1 cubic mile of debris.  If Krakatau spat out 20 cubic kilometers,
585 this is three times my crude estimate.  Since the figure quoted above indicated a lowering of temperature of 1 degree for
586 Krakatau, a total nuclear exchange might result in .3 degrees.
587 I realize that I've probably ignored something here, like the particulate size, effectiveness of dispersion, etc, but it 
588 seems that perhaps the problem isn't quite as bad as some have said.
589 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::::
590 What is the effect on the temperature of the Portland City Council
591 chambers when Hizzoner Chicken Lips Ivancie spouts oral volcanic ash?
592 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
593 #=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
594   NULEAR WAR.. WHAT A BORE!  WHY DON'T HIPPIES TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF 
595 THE SONG LYRIS I WRITE ON HERE. THEY AREN'T JUST TO TAKE UP SPACE YOU FOOLS!
596 THEY HAVE DAMN GOOD MESSAGES IN THEM IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO READ THROUGH 
597 THEM. LIKE THE ONE ON 'DB'. ITS ABOUT FIGHTING. IDON'T BE SO LIMITED IN YOUR
598 OPINIONS. PULL YOUR HEADS OUT AND LOOK FOR SOMETHING CREATIVE TO SAY. DON'T 
599 USE THE PARTY AS AN EXCUSE TO SAY THAT YOU HAVE SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT
600 EITHER. ALL THAT LEADS TO IS SELF GRATIFICATION. ALTHOUGH THAT IS WHAT MAKES
601 THE WORLD GO AROUND YOU DAYDREAMERS MUST HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO DO IN YOUR
602 SPARE TIME THAT DEBATE AND RESTATE WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID. WHY DON'T YOU
603 SAY SOMETHING THAT CALP US ALL? ARE YOU MINDLESS MACHINES?
604 CAN'T YOU DO SOMETHING ELSE BUT REPEAT YOURSELVES? UGH YOU PEOPLE GIVE ME
605 A HEADACHE.                GET OFF OF IT. WE ALMOST HAD A OOD SUBJECT GOING.
606 IT WAS ABOUT THE TERM 'HACKER'. THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EXPANDED ON. I DON'T 
607 THINK IT WOULD BE HALF AS BAD IF YOU AT LEAST TALKED ABOUT NUCLEAR WAR EVERY
608 OTHER DISK INSTEAD OF EVERY SINGLE DISK.  I ASK NOT FOR A REPLY.
609 
610   JUST THINK ABOUT IT. DON'T GET HOSTILE. USE YOU HEADS (FOR A CHANGE).
611 
612 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=MERLYN=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
613 
614 I agree. I really don'care to be apprised of the precise temperature
615 of each individual cell in my body should a 10 megaton warhead
616 land in my living room. How about some info on, say, sexual function
617 after forty, or perhaps we could find out what Julia Child looks
618 like upon arising?  Does Johnny Carson really exist? But seriously,
619 folks, what ever happened to the movement for a state lottery
620 patterned after that of our neighbors? Anyone for a quick
621 million bucks?
622                        JIMBO DA BIMBO
623 
624 ----------------------------
625 How about the private message thing? Did that die?
626 #############################################################
627 *************************************************************
628 
629 d: point well taken. I'll behave myself. leroy

