From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: RAVEN               
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:09:34
Message Number  6901

Do not use credit cards as such. I use them for id if I have to
I do not suggest that anyone use them. I have read 1984 and
believe that big brother could use the records to make a profile
I did it once to see if it could be done. It can. IU learned more about
a friend than I wanted to know. I feel sorry for him so I am loyal
to him when what he did really turns me off. I am trying to say
that normally I would run with all my might away from a dude who
did what he did but because I know his secrete I will remain loyal.
How do you like that for a strange action?
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: relationships  
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:18:33
Message Number  6902

Not sure what second guess distressed mother means. Maybe you got the me
mixed up. There is no carriage return. I type and the message does
not wrap around. I do not watch the screen as I type as the monitor sit 
to high.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:22:24
Message Number  6903

Religion ius the opiate of the people is the beginning line
of a document that we had to read in philosophy class. I was a
conservative and didn't like the statement. Now that the train
or beliefs of different cultures has been taught to me I can see why
the dude made the comment. He was observing from outside looking in.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:25:55
Message Number  6904

Now I am a dude looking from the inside out to where Mr. Marx came from
I can not disagree with him but I can say his social idease are not the 
best. Current events are proving me true.
Socialism is a step in democracy just as democracy is a step in socialis
We studied both in class and the need for both is quite aparent
I need to know if you were ever married to go further in our discussion.
I am going to discuss phila and agape and I need to know your 
experience with these terms. If you do not know that they mean I will ex
explain in a closed letter than carry on with this conversation. If we a
are not on the same wave length a dude or dudette will really read somet
something strange into our letters.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:42:43
Message Number  6905

In response: I was refering to Plato. The philosophy I was
talking about is the basis for the Catholic religion. You see those year
at... have paid off. 
SDef Leppard is a strange name is it a sect or a rock group?
Plato was no bore His perfect world is coming into florition
today in America if I am not mistakes.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:58:31
Message Number  6906

Confused by statement Non-sequitor or rather the word. What
meaning does the word have for you?
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/28/90 12:01:40
Message Number  6907

Jon Smith please accept my appologies. I read another closed board
Then I read your comment. I got the wrong idea Sorry.
I will erase my letter. Please try the other board out I believe that yo
you will like it. We have been discussing relationships and philosophy
Heavy Huh!
===========

From: MAX                 
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/28/90 12:49:56
Message Number  6908

You are the most singularly cryptic person I've ever seen on a BBS...
 
> ...I learned more about a friend than I wanted to know. I feel sorry
> for him so I am loyal to him when what he did really turns me off. I
> am trying to say that normally I would run with all my might away from
> a dude who did what he did but because I know his secrete I will
> remain loyal.
 
The only logical response is, "huh?"  If it's a secret and you're really
not intending to talk about it in any depth, then why bring it up?  If
it's something that would normally make you stop associating with the
person why is the fact that you know about it enough to make you keep
associating with him?  Regardless of whether or not the "secret" is
sufficient grounds to stop associating with him, there appears to be a
fundamental contradiction up there somewhere...?
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: THRUD               
Subject: PCP Users?     
Date & Time: 07/28/90 15:58:46
Message Number  6910

I'm an AT, and I get a little annoyed every once in a while with Turtle!
I wouldn't make fun of your XT....and I'll have to say that Turtle's 
LISA really has no purpose in life!  QED....
          The Lady
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Ziggy          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:06:32
Message Number  6911

:)  I have the CHANGES CD by Bowie....I still have my LP's though....I
really miss the vinyl stuff.  The cover art was the greatest.  Can't fit
that much on a CD.
                 The LAdy
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: JONBOY              
Subject: ...Earth Callin
Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:10:14
Message Number  6912

Earth Callin you!  It's been that long.....
         The Lady In Black
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Earth?         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:12:04
Message Number  6913

I'm back...where are you?  I could ask the same of the Yngling...
              The Lady
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Earth?         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:14:58
Message Number  6914

You are really gonna get hell when I see you next for that remark.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: things...      
Date & Time: 07/28/90 20:56:23
Message Number  6915

Caught in the act!  Yep, I picked a random number.  Did I at least get
the title of the Star Trek episode right?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:06:54
Message Number  6916

>...classed as "cults" by "mainstream" Christians... They teach things
>that cannot be backed up in the Bible"
   No, these groups back-up their beliefs by scripture, the same
scripture you use.  If you want a whole new perspective on the Good
Book, next time invite one of the Jehovah Witnesses inside when next
one knocks at your door.  What you term "mainstream" Christian sects
consider them "cults", only because they disagree with the "mainstream"
interpretation of scripture.  And I also question your use of the word
"mainstream".  My own church does not consider the two groups I
mentioned (JWs and Seventh Day Adventists) to be "cults", just two
seperate approaches to God.  But then, again, perhaps you consider
the Episcopal Church to be a cult as well.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:27:03
Message Number  6917

If you're talking about Steve Geden, then yes, I know him.  We used to
work together.  How did you run in to him?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Devil & Billy M
Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:30:06
Message Number  6918

> He would say that harp playing gets boring quick..."
  
Harp playing boring!!!!!!!!  Philistine.  Blasphemy.  No appreciation
for good music. 
   On another line, did you hear about the elderly couple that died
and went to heaven.  They found it a most enjoyable place, even better
than they had been led to believe.  The wife exclaimed joyously at
their new-found happiness in eternity.  And the husband replied, "Yeah,
and if it wasn't for you and your damn bran muffins we could have been
here years earlier."
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:37:20
Message Number  6919

>Can you see generations of people suffereing great hardships and
>persecution for the sake of a charlatan?
    Humanity has a great penchant for suffering and persecution in the
fulfillment of what they believe ... whether we judge it to be "truth"
or charlatanism (is that a word).  ie., the followers of Hitler, John
Smith, Stalin, Quakers, the Ayatollah, Ghandi, Odin, etc.
>Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying for
>this sort of system?
   But the Christians believe they are dieing to achieve life immortal,
that's a rather high personal gain.  What are you trying to prove?
===========

From: NAME                
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 22:30:28
Message Number  6920

The Bible was not written for outsiders.  (Excluding the message of
salvation.)  Taking this into consideration, if you have not been born 
again, as the bible puts it in John 3, "Being born of the water and
of the spirit."  If your spirit has not been born again, you cannot see
the Kingdom of God.  Seeing is understanding.  
  Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the things not seen.
It kinda works like this:  you get a new spirit that has faith toward
God.  And, a new spirit that understands (or sees) God.  
  I don't expect anyone who has not been born again to understand (or
see) God.  
  Let's take truth, for a minute.  I'm glad that you don't just accept
the Bible to be truth based on the fact that it says it's truth.
Truth will prove itself.  Jesus was truth, a a pretty nice guy, too.
You don't have to believe that the bible is truth, to find some helpful
guidelines for life.  (Not to steal, cheat or lie.)
===========

From: NAME                
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bible          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 22:58:34
Message Number  6921

N>>[The Bible] is where we get the tenet of Trinity from.
N>>
T>So are you a monotheist or polytheist?
T>
I am a monotheist.
===========

From: NAME                
To: MAX                 
Subject: definitions    
Date & Time: 07/28/90 23:05:07
Message Number  6922

I must be stupid, because I didn't understand anything you said.
Please respond in layman's terms next time.
("Fundamental law of the Universe"?)  I don't know what this is.
I'm not sure, but I THINK you don't believe the Bible to be truth.
If not, what part don't you believe?  Maybe I can help.
God put Adam and Eve in the garden, not Adam and Steve.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: *.*                 
Subject: boom!          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 23:20:49
Message Number  6923

    The Giant's mention of gold definitely caught Angel's interest.
"Ah, I appreciate the fine offer of assistance in outfitting my ship.
Fortunately, I now have the means to handle such provisioning myself.
But I fear the Fjord you mention is not to be found on this world.  And
my ship is bound by the winds and tides of this place.  I cannot bring
you home.  But I've need of a crew and if you -- "
    Angel's speech ended in a strange word that sounded oddly like
"ARGHOUUMPHH!" as she was knocked from her feet by the blast that
destroyed Rufus' briefcase.  "What was that?" she exclaimed as she
struggled to rise from the floor.  She left further questioning to
others as she suddenly noticed her cape was aflame.  Tossing it to the
floor, she started jumping up and down on the burning cloth, in a
rather credible imitation of Turtle at his most agitated.  "Well,
that's 20 credits shot to hell.  Now, what is happening and ... NO!"
     "Hey, Angel, did you know ---" Turtle tried to get her attention,
but her interests lay elsewhere at the moment.
    The ex-harper rushed to the piano in the corner of the bar.
"Angel, you really ought to --" Turtle tried again to no avail.
Passing the Giant, she grabbed the mug of Sliva from his hand and
tossed the drink at the smoking hole in the center of the instrument.
Unfortunately, the potent drink merely burst into flames.  Going back
for the trodden cape, she used it to beat out the fire in the piano.
"Bloody 'ell!  What is it wi' this place and musical instruments.
Wonder if this can be fixed, or if'n I'll need another burial."
     "Angel!"  If nothing else, Turtle was at least persistant.  "Stop
running around Angel.  Did you know you're bleeding?"   Rather
surprised, she glanced down at her left shoulder and was amazed to see
blood swelling from beneath a tear in her garment.
     "Oh, well, now that you mention it ... Nothing to worry about."
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:04:33
Message Number  6924

>morality.....prejudice......bigotry....<yawn>
  
Hey, I don't mean to bump my way into this, but a freind of mine at work
just relayed a story to me of her brother in California about a month
ago. It appears this gay (homosexual...whatever) guy was admitted into
his emergency room with terrible stomache pain and intestinal bleeding.
After operating on him, a small white mouse was removed from his
main body cavity and the guy almost died. Turns out, this is the new
'fad' for gays out west.....take a small (alive) white mouse, grease
him up, roll him in coke and shove him us your ass. Only this guys
mouse chewed his way into the guy's gut (good for the mouse). Now in
the context of your conversation, was this guy (these guys) perverse,
or perversed homosexuals (implying 'normal' homosexuals)? 
SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK.....say what you will, but 
you won't change my opinion!!!!!!!!
a ssssssssssssssssick ssssssssSNAKEBYTE .  .
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:15:27
Message Number  6925

>evidence to support judgement of homosexuality....
   
Let's see, I don't 'think' (implying opinion) that sex with animals
(assuming consenting animals) is 'normal'. If an adult con's a child
to have sex with them, does that make the child 'consenting'? If not,
is that just your 'opinion'? In any case, I do not 'think' this is
'normal' either (consenting or not). I also don't think that sex with
small appliances is 'normal' either (even consenting appliances). I also
do not think that sex between consenting adults of the same sex is
'normal' (especially males...ooops, nail me for that comment!!!). I'd
just assume stick it in a blender then in an orifice that was meant to
pass human excrement (only). Why???? Well hell, I don't find ANY men
sexually attractive (and a lot of women around aren't too attractive 
either).....tah-dah!!!! My opinion!!!!! I think I'm entitled to
it, and I'm entitled to profess it. Beastiality is NOT WRONG because
I think it is. There are things that are naturally unnatural (or
should I say, unacceptable by human standards). If everyone can do as
they please as long as it doesn;t 'bother' anyone else....you MUST 
define 'bother'.  
  
Oh yeah, If a gay guy is looking at YOU with 'that' look in his eyes
, are YOU uncomfortable????? Or do you feel GOOD that he finds YOU
sexually attractive???????    ......well??????
  
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:31:09
Message Number  6926

> medical proof that homosexuality is in fact a sickness.....
   
Come on Beatle.....you tellin' me that YOU (or anyone) can PROVE
medically that rapists, child abusers, beastiality practicioners,
theives, muggers, murderers, or any of the such are MEDICALLY SICK????
  
I guess its' also 'normal' in some books for homosexuals to get sex
change operations. Would YOU feel comfortable with an ex-male date??
Why not???????  Would it be 'normal' for a practicioner of beastiality
to get a transplant of a cow's penis to satisfy his desire to be with
his favorite heffer???   ....think about it.......
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:37:46
Message Number  6927

A CHOICE???????    Where's that 'medical' background???? I think you
would quickly find the definition of a 'woman trapped in a man's body'
or a overwhelming desire to displace one's mother rapidly surfacing.
The people do NOT profess a CHOICE. In fact, they will SWEAR that they
have NO choice. Is the overwhlming desire to have sex with small 
children (perhaps yours) a 'choice'??? Is the desire to have sex with
a dog, sheep or cow a 'normal' choice????? Is the desire to rape a 
seventy year old retired lady in her apartment a 'normal' choice????
  
In your extensive 'medical background', how many rapists (of man or
beast), homosexuals, child abusers or whatever told you, "Yeah, welp
I could've gone to McDonalds for a burger, but I desided to rape a 
3 year old instead". And YOU'RE telling us that this was a choice made
with NO sickness involved?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?     Geeeezzzzz
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:47:14
Message Number  6928

>if rate of occurance is the indicator....
   
Well, where does that leave the Pope??? The President???? Extremely
intellegent people???? Rocket scientists??????    hmmmmm, sickness??
  
....nawwww, junk the 'rate of occurance' crap.....
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: V                   
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:50:43
Message Number  6929

>Hey, it all boils down to X. vs. Y.
  
One 'what' is only 95% male???? It boils down to AC. vs DC.!!!
Oh yeah, male is defined as the sex of a species that produces sperm
(or motile gametes or some type), while female refers to the one that
bears young or produces eggs. While masculine and femanine refer to
characterists of each. Maybe one is 95% masculine, but one is definitely
100% male!!!!!  Oh yeah, 'opposite' inferrs diametrically different
things, so if males and females are 'opposite' sexes, then they would
HAVE to be totally different from one another to satisfy your statement.
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . .huh?????
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: MAX                 
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:00:24
Message Number  6930

>I find discrimination to be as morally repugnant as you apparently
>find homosexuality to be.
  
Discriminating is only noticing a diffence between two things. How you
'act' upon it is another subject (like prejudice, perhaps). If you
act against (or oppose) based on a discriminating and prejudice
opinion, then yes, that is baddddddd. But, that would make you
prejudice against prejudice people, making you prejudice against
yourself....aha!!!! Yup, you've got yourself by the short hairs.....
 
oooops....
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:05:55
Message Number  6931

> grammar.....<yuck>, I had terrible English instructors, but I did
have enough sense to buy a decent dictionary.....<grin>.
 
===========

From: SNAKEBYTE           
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: hi             
Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:17:29
Message Number  6932

Missed you around.     Hope all's well.......
                              .\  /.
                              \_____/
                                \_/
                                 |
                                 /\
  
see ya' Lady.
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Association    
Date & Time: 07/29/90 08:36:54
Message Number  6933

I read your reply, and I agree with you that these unfortunate crimes
do happen in our society....I will correct a couple of facts for you
though, whereas not to misleed or give only a one sided conversation.
It is true that Rape, Incest,Child Abusers,and having sex with animals
DOES happen in the world today that we live in...however your facts make
direction towards Homosexuals, with the feeling and asumption that all
Homosexuals are the ones doing all these crimes....I beg to difer with 
you....if you would like check with the local NAACP and the GALA and
ACLU and Sheriffs Association for "statistics" on rates and race of
a majority of the crimes that you mentioned....I wish I could help you
better understand us as "Homosexuals"..but I can tell from your creative
writting that it would be useless....for that I am sorry.  Some people
in the world today cant grasp the fact that Hetrosexuals, Black Men and 
Women, Teenagers, and YES Homosexuals are all aty fault and should have
fingers pointed to them for the awwwful crimes that they commit.  I am
one who refuses to single out a "classification of ones sexual desires"
to ease my conscience whereas not to have to deal with the real world.
 
I enjoy these comments, and welcome with open arms more...helping
describe, as you call it "this sickness" has been in the same 
direction as my career for the past eight years.
 
TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Normal         
Date & Time: 07/29/90 08:50:15
Message Number  6934

There where too many "normals" in that last letter, why not use the
term, "socially acceptable" or "Homophopbically reconized"..this I feel
is a better definition, because who is to deictate or define "normal"??
 
TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/29/90 10:45:18
Message Number  6935

>How do you like that for a strange action?
 
Just the only honorable course that could be taken, as the information
was discovered in a moderately dishonorable (if unintended) manner.
The social security number is equally revealing, as it links all
education, medical, employment, and credit records under one id number,
but like cc#s this info. is generally misused.  Of late I have thought
about running a security check on myself (about $35) just to see how
accurate the info. is.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 10:59:03
Message Number  6936

>was this guy (these guys) perverse,...
 
Just as perverse as any entity that takes pleasure from causing the
demise of, or injury to, another intelligent being.  Incidentally
I first heard of this fad about 5 years ago, and find it as repulsive
now as I did then.  Harming another creature solely for the thrill of it
is not moral, and such actions should be condemned.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 11:09:11
Message Number  6937

>Well, where does that leave the Pope??? The President???? Extremely
>intellegent people???? Rocket scientists??????    hmmmmm, sickness??
 
Please elaborate, as your response is not clear.
 
>....nawwww, junk the 'rate of occurance' crap.....
 
The Specialist was using the morality of the public at large to justify
his claim that homosexuality is morally wrong.  I was merely pointing
out that the 'moral' practice of monogamy is not the general norm.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: ALL                 
Subject: The Above      
Date & Time: 07/29/90 12:57:00
Message Number  6938

   "What the hell--?"  Wezip lets go of Xon's shirt at the sound of
the explosion.
   "Funny, just what I was going to ask you," Xon says crossly.
   "Oh.  Right.  Well, I need to get you to do a favor for me."  The
fox absently watches the tribble pop out from behind where Bongo-
Man threw it.  Cute little whatsit.  It promptly falls onto the floor
and out of sight.
   "Tell me about it in a minute," Xon says, crossing over to where
Rufus is standing.
---
   "I saw, I saw," Mulligan says in response to Turtle.  He says this
at the same time he's dashing out of his seat and racing for the
door; he gets there and stops, apparently determining that the
assassin is too far away already to be pursuable.  He then heads
back to Rufus, ignoring the reptile.
   "You have any idea why someone would be trying to kill you?"  His
expression is a little skeptical, somehow suggesting that he over-
heard Rufus' explanation of a few moments ago.
---
   "I have these houseguests coming," Wezip mumbles to the air where
Xonzoff had been standing.  Then he thrusts his hands in his pockets,
sighs melodramatically and heads toward Angel and the piano.
    His expression changes to one of dismay when he sees Angel is
bleeding, and the thought of his impending houseguests is temporarily
driven out of mind.  "That doesn't look like 'nothing to worry about,'"
he says reproachfully.  He looks over at the bar as if hoping a
bandage will appear magically; Xonzoff is digging around behind it,
perhaps looking for the fox's theoretical first aid kit.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: NAME                
Subject: definitions    
Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:10:02
Message Number  6939

> I'm not sure, but I THINK you don't believe the Bible to be truth.
 
If you mean that I don't believe it to be the infallible, literal Word
of God, you're absolutely right.  Your comment that the Bible was not
meant for "outsiders" is incomprehensible on the surface, by the way;
if all humans are meant to be saved through Christ, then none of them
should be "outsiders".
 
> If not, what part don't you believe? Maybe I can help.
 
Help with what?  If you mean convincing me that it's the literal word
of God, or even convincing me that a 'supreme being' would incarnate
himself as a human being and allow himself to be killed on the grounds
that doing so would absolve all humanity of their sins if only they
took the leap of faith necessary to accept the premise of this sentence,
then you may have a tough time of it.  My ultimate objection to the
philosophy of Christianity, apart from the practice, is that this just
doesn't make any SENSE philosophically.  (I won't even get into my
objections to the ACTIONS of Christians in the name of their divine
scapegoat.)
 
> God put Adam and Eve in the garden, not Adam and Steve.
 
Is there a point to this observation?
===========

From: MAX                 
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:16:10
Message Number  6940

That fad is a homosexual variant of one that heterosexual females have
been doing, too.  Yes, it's perverse, but it's equally perverse whether
the person doing it is straight, gay, or bisexual, isn't it?  If
bringing this up is meant to suggest that all homosexuals are 'perverse'
in this fashion because of this fad, then logically all heterosexuals
are perverse because some of them do it, too.  Yes, it's sick.
    My point is, again, that what you describe has a victim -- in this
case, the mouse.  If you take what most people would consider a normal
heterosexual relationship and do not change it in any way other than
flipping the sex of one of the people involved, you haven't made it into
a stinking morass of child molesting, animal-raping human slime.
    At any rate, there is NO EVIDENCE to support that a homosexual or
bisexual individual is more predisposed to molesting children, raping
other individuals, or, yes, sticking small furry animals in body
cavities than a heterosexual one is.  There is, indeed, evidence to
support that homo/bi people are likely to be more promiscuous than
heteros.  I consider this unfortunate at best (and dangerous at worst),
but my moral judgment on the matter comes from the promiscuity, not the
sexual orientation.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:24:58
Message Number  6941

> But that would make you prejudice against prejudice people, making you
> prejudice against yourself...
 
This is, in the words of the Specialist, manifest bullshit.  In point of
fact, I didn't say I discriminated against people who discriminate; I
just disagree with them.  I've known the Specialist for about two years
and have known his intense hatred of homosexuality for almost that long;
I don't agree with his opinion, he doesn't agree with mine, but that
doesn't mean we've stopped associating with each other or respecting the
other one's opinion & judgments (even - gasp! - when there's a
disagreement).
    It sounds to me like you think I can't be prejudiced against anyone
else who's prejudiced, because then I would be prejudiced against
myself.  By this logic, I must have to agree with everyone who says
things I don't agree with.  This doesn't work to begin with.  And if you
think I have no grounds for "discriminating" against members of the
American Nazi party or the KKK, you are the one who needs to re-examine
your thinking -- not me.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: *.*                 
Subject: rip            
Date & Time: 07/29/90 14:28:57
Message Number  6942

     "Really, I'm fine.  Don't worry about it."  But Wezip ignored
Angel's remarks.  The fox took the first aid kit that Xon finally
discovered behind the bar.
     "Angel, be quiet, let me take care of you."
     "You don't have to -- Hey, don't! ... Too late."  Angel was
unable to stop Wezip as he took hands to the small tear on her blouse
and ripped it wide open to get a closer look at the wound.  "It's not
just musical instruments, you guys are tough on clothing, too."
Cleaning the blood from the wound, Wezip had to agree that it really
was a minor injury.  There was a gash in the upper arm about three
inches long, but very shallow, with no major blood vessels torn.  No
longer concerned about her safety, he was more disturbed by the action
of the wound.  It seemed as if the wound was repairing itself before
his eyes.  Very slowly, the sides of the open cut seemed to move closer
together, trying to make whole the damage.  Looking up at her face, for
the first time he noticed there was no trace of the cut there that she
had received the night before.
     "I thought you knew no magic," Wezip said.
     "It's not magic.  It's just me.  How do you think I've lived all
these centuries?"
     "All these centuries?" asked Sam.  "Strange, you don't look a day
over one hundred."  Sam seemed undamaged by the explosion, a situation
Angel considered rectifying.  Fortunately for the little ragamuffin,
Wezip stood between Angel and _her_.
     "So, Wezip, you're having visitors?  How nice.  And how many
ladies will there be?"
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/29/90 19:57:16
Message Number  6944

>I was referring to Plato.
 
I know.
 
>The philosophy I was talking about was the basis for the Catholic
>religion.
 
In what way? Last I heard, Christianity wasn't too fond of the teachings
of the pagan Greeks, particularly not Catholicism.
 
Def Leppard is the name of a rock group.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Earth.         
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:01:06
Message Number  6945

>You are really gonna get hell when I se you next for that remark.
 
Promises, promises. I shall await with utmost fascination to see what
kind of hell you're going to give me.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:02:59
Message Number  6946

>If you want a whole new perspective on the Good Book...
 
...and a decidedly strange one. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a remarkable
bunch when it comes to the art of creative interpretation.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: NAME                
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:09:16
Message Number  6947

>The Bible was not written for outsiders.
 
Really? I find it hard to believe that the sole purpose of the Bible is
to preach to the convinced.
 
I'm fascinated by your assertion that the only way to become convinced
of the authenticity of Christianity is to become a Christian--that is,
to be convinced of the authenticity of Christianity. Unfortunately, I've
heard the line before--"you won't understand until you become one of
us." That's a really popular line of reasoning that's been used to
support a number of rather ghastly institutions. In any event, your
reasoning isn't going to impress anyone who's not a Christian already
(someone who is will, presumably, nod sagely); if there is, in fact, no
way for a non-Christian to believe in the tenants of Christianity, then
it's going to be pretty hard for Christianity to spread, isn't it? It
also has no bearing on the truth of the Christian tenants; to say that
you can only understand them if you believe is rather like saying "only
a believer believes this." Yes, that's true, but I hardly think the
assertion that only one who believes in Christianity can truly under-
stand it is the best argument in favor of Christianity I've ever heard.
 
>Jesus was Truth, ...
 
How do you know?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: NAME                
Subject: Bible          
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:17:46
Message Number  6948

>I am a monotheist.
 
The Trinity is composed of three parts; otherwise, it wouldn't be a
Trinity. A monotheist worships a singular god. A triunal god is not a
singular god by definition.
 
"Christian theologians can prove that Christianity is a monotheistic
religion, but it takes some fancy footwork." --Dr. Lee Snyder, Professor
of Islamic Studies.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:21:42
Message Number  6949

I would say that using a living organism as a sex toy, in a process
is likely to kill the organism, is animal abuse, which is immoral
regardless of the sexual orientation of the person performing the act.
It also has nothing whatever to do with the morality of homosexuality.
 
(If you're really interested, I've heard of this practice before. It's
called "gerbiling," and it is /not/ limited to homosexuals. The process
is almost invariably fatal to the animal in question. Yes, I consider
that "sick." What's your point?)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:24:49
Message Number  6950

>bestiality (assuming consenting animals)...
 
By definition, a non-sapient animal can not give informed consent to
anything. Bestiality is animal abuse.
 
>sex with children (assuming consenting children)...
 
Likewise. A six-year-old is not capable of giving "informed consent"
to something of this nature, and in any event (1) most child molestors
don't ask for permission first and (2) children are not physically
developed to the point where they are capable of sexual behavior. Child
molestation is a particularly savage form of rape.
 
>What would you do if a man gave you "that look"...
 
As long as that's /all/ he did, absolutely nothing. He's not affecting
me in any way. My feelings would neither be good nor bad; I wouldn't
waste my time worrying about it. I am secure enough in my own sexuality
that it simply wouldn't bother me. On the other hand, I wouldn't /sleep/
with him, either. There is a difference between another person's thought
and his action.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:55:24
Message Number  6951

Christians in this neck of the woods do not like to admit it  but people
up my way have no problem with admitting when ideas are borrowed.
The religious ceremony that I attended this morning is a mixture
of the Catholic and Episcopalian services. There was a priest doing the
sacrements and a minister doing the preaching. I am a Congregationalist 
and several Jews were there. The service was a community event
If you do not do the Euchorist(ms) you could obstain. I did and
 felt no harm as a result. My jewish friends sat out with me. My catholi
buddy went forward. I did not feel sorry for him. He was worshiping
the same God as I. He just did it differently.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/30/90 00:50:46
Message Number  6952

>...and a decidedly strange one.  The Jehovah's Witnesses are a remark-
>able bunch when it comes to the art of creative interpretation.
    Ah, strange and wondrous.  Actually, from what I've read from their
books, their unique interpretations, taken as a whole, hold up rather
well without having to resort to a lot of "fill-in-the-gap" theology.
Of course, the whole is a rather bizarre one, but quite logical within
its own framework.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:40:51
Message Number  6953

  >I< am not the one that considers homosexuality a "sickness". That 
user is The Specialist. /I/ was asking /him/ for evidence to support 
/his/ claim that homosexuality is a sickness.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: BIG LEW             
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:43:23
Message Number  6954

> Is this stuff for real...?
 
  Yep, as real as my hand. You can find it at any toy store.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RAVEN               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:45:32
Message Number  6955

> Sounds like the same slime that was marketed about 5 years ago...
 
  Okay, I must be insane, but you're wrong. I purchased some of the 
"He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" Slime-Pit Slime (I'm not making
this up either!!) back then...
  The He-Man slime was thicker, attracted dirt,wasn't transparent, and 
didn't leave residue on your hands... The Turtles slime is transparent, 
stickier, thinner, and stays clean. Also, the He-Man slime stayed in 
it's original form (mostly)... it actually got HARDER the longer you had
it, rather than liquifying....
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:53:33
Message Number  6956

> ...how to make oobleck...
 
  Oooh, can I have some?!!? I like that idea! (Actually, tell me how to 
do it, and I'll see if I can do it in chemistry next year...)
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:54:59
Message Number  6957

> ALWAYS anal retentive about grammar.
 
  And I agree fully. I don't mind if someone makes a common mistake that
sounds fine (although it still IS wrong)... I hate things like "This IS 
the message bases"....
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: spam           
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:00:20
Message Number  6958

> I thought that was spelled DILDO?
 
  Actually, I don't understand what that had to do with Spam, but it 
gives me the opportunity to share my favorite self-created childish
acronym:
 
O-rganization
R-eading
G-ood
A-nd
S-uper
M-aterials
 
  I used this in a description of a text file I wrote, which ironically
(come to think of it) was titled Spam... (!!!) Wow, weird how that 
happened... must be a psyhic occurance... from SPAM to DILDO to ORGASM 
to SPAM... that must qualify for />WEIRDNESS</ is someone's book...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:07:29
Message Number  6959

> Conform! Conform!  You can feel your brain turning into butter...
 
  What does it turn into if you DON'T conform??
 
  By the way, your brain doesn't turn into butter, it turns into eggs...
don't you remember the ad campaign?? I mean, "last time; any questions".
How can you forget!! 
 
     ;)
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:15:48
Message Number  6960

  By the way, on the subject of oobleck... how do you get your hand OUT
after it gets in there? Do you use a heat source to make the stuff turn
to liquid and then pull your hand out?
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Ziggy          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:21:20
Message Number  6961

> still have my LP's though...
 
  Me too, I'll have them forever, probably...
 
 > ...cover art was the greatest. Can't fit that much on a CD.
 
  Yeah, but it's millions of times better than a cassette!! I love 
looking at cassette insrts to see how they fit it all in... folding it 
as thick as the cassette itself is getting common....
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: things...      
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:27:05
Message Number  6962

> Did I at least get the title of the Star Trek episode right?
 
  Yep. What really nags me is the fact that I NOTICED the mistake... ooh
... I'm turning into a mindless blob of useless information!! Exactly 
why I want to own a video store or work for Universal Studios... they 
can probably put my useless facts to work. God knows I picked up more of
them when I was there...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:33:34
Message Number  6963

 I think you might be stirring up more trouble than neccesary. You agree
(as far as I see) with the idea that this is your OPINION, and not a 
fact. Max and Turtle have been 
getting onto the Specialist because he says that being gay is a sickness
without facts.
  As you gave an example, I don't see how they could disagree with you.
Granted, sticking a live mouse in your anal cavity is quite odd, but 
calling it sick can fall into the same category as telling someone that 
masturbation is self abuse and self polution... I got that definition 
from a dictionary. Not very descriptive of the act itself, is it...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:43:36
Message Number  6964

>  that would make you prejudice against prejudice people, making you 
> prejudice against yourself...
 
  Not neccesarily... the definition of prejudice is judging a group of
people by a small number, such as saying that all blacks are stupid 
becuase you know two that are. Maxnever seemed to express a prejudice, 
just an opinion that he doesn't like the fact that they are prejudiced. 
You can't really apply the definition anyway, since he isn't judging a 
group that has members that are different. By saying "prejudiced people"
, you are defining a group that has no subgroups of un-prejudiced people
...  
  A term that would make more sense in your message would b
"descrimination", but he doesn't descriminate against people either...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: ALL                 
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:01:16
Message Number  6965

 Well, VH1 had a "Blonde on Blonde" Sunday. Yep, 24 hours of Marilyn
Monroe and Madonna! ARGH! Sounds like some sort of torture... Madonna 
actually had Marilyn outdone here, as VH1 has about 2 hours of Madonna 
programming, as opposed to 1/2 hour of Marilyn Monroe... and this goes 
on and on for 24 HOURS! 
  You can always tape the "Papa Don't Preach" video and play it back in 
slow-motion to watch for the two split seconds where Madonna sort of 
"popped out" of her dress... yep, no joke, this was published in a 
magazine.
 
  One question about that video: Is that Danny Aiello playing Madonna's 
father??
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:14:32
Message Number  6967

Well, to get free of oobleck, there are a few things you can do.
1)Chop your hand off.
2)Set your arm on fire, which should heat your hand up, melting the 
oobleck.
3)Get some 18 molar acid, pour it in the oobleck.  It eats wood, eats
flesh (my flesh to be exact), so I'm sure it would enjoy an oobleck
hor de dorve, or is that horse douvers?
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:18:55
Message Number  6968

This Wednesday MTV is having 24 hours (yea, a whole day) of Madonna.
24 hours, as in none of their usual game shows and such.  Ghods...I used
to like MTV.  Now it's...it's.....bleck.
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Heart          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 13:37:13
Message Number  6969

Answer me this:
        What exactly is normal?
                The Lady
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/30/90 13:53:06
Message Number  6970

The argument is biased.  It is not fair for any one person to label a 
behavior "normal" or "abnormal"...there are types of behavior that we
choose to accept and types that we choose not to accept...that does not
necessarily make them "right" or "wrong".  I choose to accept homosexual
ity...I've been given no reason not to...it doesn't affect me in any 
negative way...I can go on having a heterosexual relationship without
being offended or bothered by someones' homosexual relationship...it's
simple...it's not my business.  Who am I to tell a gay man that he has 
no right to sleep with another man...should he be allowed to tell me tha
t I am not entitled to sleep with a man?  NO.  It's not his business.
Morality is in the eye of the beholder...you make it what it is...I 
do not approve of rape or incest, but that is for an obvious reason...it
is a forced behavior...We live in America...what happened to freedom of
speech?  What happened to a persons right to privacy?  WE are all so 
busy trying to impose morality on people that we've actually become 
completely immoral.  Freud would love to see how the chain of messages 
on this BBS has developed...I think it's kinda sad...I find it 
amusing to see how someone can call a person a nasty name and not expect
to get labeled...after all, haven't you just labeled someone yourself...
What happened to mature adults?  Don't they exist anymore?  Isn't anyone
capable of debating an issue without dragging morality into it?
HMPH!  I guess I'll warp back into the 40's....
               The Lady 
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: hi             
Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:04:28
Message Number  6971

Could say the same to you...what's new and exciting?
     The Lady
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Earth.         
Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:09:45
Message Number  6972

:>  A deserving hell thou shall recieve....maybe I'll subject you to 
my debate over a homosexual's rights....they do have rights, y'know?
          The lady]
===========

From: BLACK MAGIC         
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Ziggy          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:14:30
Message Number  6973

Album art can never be matched, though....
      :)
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:13:43
Message Number  6975

> none of their usual game shows and such.
 
  Which means no "Just Say Julie"!!! And that show is getting funnier, 
too... Ugghhh...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:16:51
Message Number  6976

>...rape or incest...forced...
 
  Incest isn't always forced, but it's still in a similar category...
===========

From: BIG LEW             
To: NAME                
Subject: TRUTH          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:37:07
Message Number  6977

I like the way you put this message.  Nobody has ever said it quite like
that to me and although, I am born again and DO believe in everlasting
life, reading your message gave me a good feeling.  I think people are 
afraid to read the Bible, but they read everything else to improve their
lives (I mean TRY to improve their lives).  The ten commandments would 
keep the world in line, if we would all live by them.  Enjoy your views
a lot.  Thanks.
===========

From: BIG LEW             
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:42:45
Message Number  6978

What a sicko!  Is this story for real?  Maybe the "guy" should have died
Who knows what he'll put up it next and for what purpose?  I honestly 
cannot believe that this is for real- mind you, I'm not questioning you,
you're only relaying what was told to you.  I am quite conservative, I 
guess, but this is just not "normal"; in fact, homosexuality is not 
normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:01:51
Message Number  6979

Hold on, hooooollldd on - whoa I say!  Lemmee do some more in depth
research - I got kinda sidetracked on some neat stuff in Isaiah but
I'm still trying to find some stuff out about it.  For now - it appears
that you are correct in a couple of respects.  I'm tracking down and
rounding up a few thinks in Luke that seems to agree with what you
maintain with it not being intended as a place of punishment.  There are
a few anomolies that I would like to clear up about references in the OT
where contrary (?) to a staement you made, Sheol is mentioned several
times - HOWEVER - it is rendered as "the grave" for some arcane reason
I am trying to fathom by the translators.  It seems to be one of those
things that the intent is modified by the context and not due to any
desire on the part of the translators to map the text into an existing
theology.  I must say thanks for a rewarding line of research!  
Question: how, if any, would a revelation that God doesn't keep a 
personal torture chamber affect your perceptions?  I really get the
impression that the objection to hell was a sideline to the real issue
of a decided non-belief in a creator.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:10:24
Message Number  6980

Huh?  Waitadamminite!  It was quite ok for YOU to assume a passage thru
terra-non-firma.  Assume therefor a black hole or some other mass
that is capable of exerting a gravitational attraction upon the ball.
Assume also a passing trajectory that causes the ball to become entrappe
by the gravitational field.  Air resistance et al has nothing to do 
with a decaying orbit from the rsults of insufficient escape velocity.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:13:38
Message Number  6981

I believe B.Dalton has it in the philosophy section.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Caves of...    
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:14:48
Message Number  6982

No no, I read Phaeto long ago and the cave analogy etc - I was trying to
figure out what in the devil HE was referring to in that context - I
got lost somewhere.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:16:12
Message Number  6983

That's dumb!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:17:16
Message Number  6984

And then if you piss them off (not *too* hard) they will clam up
and imitate normal mossy-looking stuff complete with spore pods and
filaments.  I used to get filthy in the woods in Alabama looking for 
various worts and other fungi..   sigh*  those were fun days!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:19:42
Message Number  6985

'Tis true I admit - but I was told by the honorable perfessors that 
they prefer to cling to a faulty model rather than none at all!
Truth is - they just have not one clue and piss-poor correlation 
between the things that would "normally" be suspect in such cases; ie
hormones, chemical imbalances, genetics....  It's kind of like the
state of physics - they have a lot of macromodels that make sense
in their own context - now to make 'em fit the larger scheme of
things.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Shrink         
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:23:16
Message Number  6986

Silly me to pass on such an obvious answer!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:26:20
Message Number  6987

It means - "it does not follow" and is a term used when somebody 
says something that is unrelated (or not obvious) to the current 
idea of discussion.  Like we are talking about roses and their
propagation and you pipe up with "my mother-in-law has a really
nasty wart on her chin with a hair in it..."
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:29:39
Message Number  6988

>fundamental contradiction up there somewhere...?
 
Where's that?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Ziggy          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:31:19
Message Number  6989

Sighhh - I know.  Those itty bitty damned CD covers that snap off
my ex got paint all over the Ziggy cover and LP but I still keep it
for a reminder of a very good period of my life...  I used to
buy LP's just for thwe cover art - y'know? I was seldom disappointed!
Seems the more effort that went into the cover was worth the effort.
There have even been a few controversial ones - remember the Blind Faith
albumn cover?  What a scandal - now you can see the origianal on the CD
version and it's no big deal.
I have been looking since the early 70's for a couple of albumns by an
african group called OSIBISA which they said was a word that described
(eddie murphey "Coming to America" voice) "Criss-cross rhythmns of
flowing music..."  The albumn covers were done ala' YES with elephants
that were flying with dragonfly wings - simply beautiful!  Someone
liberated my copies *sob*!
Anyway - glad to see you back - I wondered what became of you and Turtle
specified that your 'puter was giving you grief.  We're still supposed
to do tacos some night...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: ...Earth Callin
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:38:47
Message Number  6990

****** Hi Babe! ********  Krrrrrrcchhhhhhh!  JonBoy out...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Earth?         
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:39:25
Message Number  6991

Yngling is in the process of becoming disgustingly domesticated!
I mean that house has actually yard-trained him already!  Imagine!
My neighbors finally came over and wanted to know when I was gonna cut
my lawn - said "glad you volunteered!".  He only charged me $15 which
suits me just fine!  Leaves me time to ride my bike, program the ol
AT, and play lots of guitar - Ahhhh!  The single life!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:42:53
Message Number  6992

I'm not gonna nibble - Episcopals have a lot in common with the RC
church whatever your group wants to call them is fine by me but I will 
stand by my statement.  They in fact ALL purport to have obtained 
"special" revelations that supercede the Bible.  The Mormons even have
their own books that supposedly chronicle the ministry of Jesus here in
the New World - calling the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price
biblical books is stretching it.  The Seventh Day Adventists assert that
everyone is wrong (pretty stridently I might add) because by George, if
God wanted to worshipped on Sunday He would have said so!  As it is -
your worship is invalid and unrecognized in the eyes of God because it
doesn't fall on His holy day which any idiot knows the Catholic Bishop
whatshisname screwed up when his calculator fritzed during some 
right ascension calculations necessitating some rough figures and he 
slipped by a whole day - the Jews still have it right!
Sorry - these people are guilty of what everyone tries to accuse 
"mainstream" Christians of - accusing everyone of being apostate and 
they are the true "keepers of the flame".  MAybe its these people that 
are causing ALL the ruckus and sharing the blame?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:51:20
Message Number  6993

Small world - I work VERY closely with Steve.  He is bucking for
a job as top computer systems weinie at Hi-Stat as it is he is a 
middle level manager and maintains the LAN and carries the Holy
Flag of PC's for everyone into battle against the Dark Knight
of VAX for those whose deserve it!  Give him a call 355-9761 and
ask the operator for him.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: Devil & Billy M
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:54:31
Message Number  6994

I like it - the article I am talking about is TRULY blasphemous and
would cause weak-hearted Christians to die of massive heart-attack.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:56:03
Message Number  6995

Maybe I expect (or hope) too hard that people can see apoint that to 
me is obvious (of course! and no - I'm NOT that naive).  Church
history is rampant with persecutions of the early christians.  For 
hundreds of years these people lived in the sewers of Rome for
their beliefs they lived year in and out in an atmosphere that was 
heavy with the possibility of death at the arena or crucifiction.
Think about it... our entire nation hasn't been around as long as 
a SHORT section of these persecutions (which came in waves).
I'm sorry - Hitler's influence lasted not even throught the war as 
silly things like lack of food took their toll on the moral of
the people.  We are talking a faith that sustained generations of
people through unbelievable hardships and in the process still
managed to get converts to the faith.  It is estimated that there
are over 40,000 christian graves in the underground catacombs of
Rome and untold hundreds of thousands were burned alive, crucified
and thrown to the wild beasts.  Even the Roman jailers were awed by the
determination of the christians.  One slave girl was repeatedly raped
and tortured day and night until she died. When asked to turn against
her fellow christians she would only say "We are Christians and do
no evil amongst ourselves."  These people finally won over some of
the emperors and finally the killing ceased.
Can you think of another culture that has not only endured such 
treatment but have overcome in the process?  Only one I know of andf
that is the Jewish people.  Full-Circle.
===========

From: BOB ARDREN          
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Age            
Date & Time: 07/30/90 21:43:42
Message Number  6996

Just reading a bunch of your messages Jonbody. New kid on the block here
so I've no history--but frankly you really were bitching more than a lit
tle about the younger generation. And we all know that's an old story.
Besides, to tell the truth, the intention was a little gentle kidding. 
There is room for humor here, no?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: things...      
Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:26:03
Message Number  6997

Ooh, finally I find someone who's been to Universal Studios.  What's
it like (most particularly, is it worth the outrageous entry fee)?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:39:16
Message Number  6998

You've really lost me on this post.  I'm not sure what you're talking
about.  Please define "mainstream" Christianity; from your posts I'm
beginning to think that you define mainstream as any group that shares
your beliefs, and "cult" as any Christian group that doesn't.  If I
am wrong, please enlighten me.
>Maybe its these people that are causing ALL the ruckus and
>sharing the blame?
    Huh?  Really can't follow this one.
Oh, other day couldn't find my dictionary, but have it now.  According
to Webster "cult 1. a system of religious worship or ritual 
2 a) devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, 
principle, etc., esp. when regarded as a fad b) the object of such
attachment.  3. a group of followers; sect"
    General definition does not mention Christianity at all, as your
definition particularly cited.
    Oh, and thanks for informing me that there are many similarities
between the Episcopal Church and the RC church.  Wow!  What a news
flash!  Personally, I like to think of it as "Catholic Lite".  You
get the neat ceremonies, but you don't have to worry about the
opinions of the guy with the big pointed hat in Rome.
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: small world    
Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:49:57
Message Number  6999

Small world, indeed!  Please give my best to Steve next time you see
him.  And thanks for the number, I'll give him a call to catch up on
old times.  What do you do at Hi-Stat (are you employed there, or
some other way associated with them)?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:16:37
Message Number  7000

Yes, the immediate group to come to mind are the Jews.  But next comes
the followers of Islam, who certainly have overcome in the process.
I, too, am awed at the serenity and faith of the early Christians.
But, the point of this was, you are trying to use the faith as an
arguement about the validity of their beliefs.  The fact that many
have suffered and died and overcome, does not really give credence
to the belief, just to their longevity.  And if you try to use shear
numbers as an arguement ... that won't really work.  Christianity is
not the largest religion practiced on this planet.
    I do see your point ... I just cannot agree with your conclusion.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:51:26
Message Number  7001

Yes, Christians as a whole aren't too keen on admitting when parts of
their religion are borrowed. I don't see how that relates to your
assertion that Catholicism is based largely on Plato's ideas. The
Platonic idea of "perfect forms" has very little to do with
Catholicism, I fear.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:55:10
Message Number  7002

>Of course, the whole is a rather bizzare one, but quite logical
>within its own framework.
 
This is part of the problem with a totally self-contained belief system
of any sort. I'd say that Christianity suffers from the same problem,
although it's not quite so bizzare--or so perfectly defined. A
system such as Christianity (or in fact almost /any/ religion) is
hermetically sealed from the real world--it can neither be proven nor
disproven from without, and if it avoids any gross errors with self-
consistency it can't be disproven from within, either. Of course, I
wonder what value such a system has--when it comes right down to it,
it's not terribly helpful if you're trying to understand the universe
around you. I can fabricate the existance of s divine being with any
characteristics I choose, create a whole detailed theology around this
deity, and as long as I make sure it dovetails with the general
conception, viola! A brand-new religion that absolutely cannot be dis:
proven by any feat of logic whatever.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:03:30
Message Number  7003

The stuff isn't that tough. Keep wiggling your hand and you'll create a
pool of liquid oobleck around it, and you can work your hand out fairly
easily. Now mix some CONCRETE with the oobleck and you've got a
stickier problem.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:06:31
Message Number  7004

24 hours of Madonna? I can't think of a blessed thing I'd like more,
EXCEPT MAYBE HAVING MY TONGUE WRAPPED AROUND A QUISINART BLADE!!!
24 hours of Madonna sounds like a truly orgasmic feast of pure pleasure-
IF YOU ENJOY THREE-METER DIVING INTO BUCKETS OF RUSTY NAILS.
Madonna is truly incomparable in the field of modern music--
BECAUSE THERE'S NOBODY AROUND WHO WOULDN'T KILL YOU IF YOU COMPARED THEM
TO HER!!!!!!!
 
               --An aggravated Turtle
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Earth.         
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:10:11
Message Number  7005

>...maybe I'll subject you to my debates over a homosexual's rights...
>they do have rights, y'know?
 
Really?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:12:58
Message Number  7006

The objection I have to hell is one of the things I dislike about
Christianity as it is currently practiced, not an objection to
Christianity in general. The objection I have to Christianity in
general is a lot simpler: I don't buy into the entire belief system
at all. (Haven't found a belief system I /do/ buy into yet, although I
must admit that Wicca has impressed me more than any of the other
religions I've come across so far.)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:18:28
Message Number  7007

Well, yes, it was a rather big step to assume that the ball could
pass through the ground--I threw that in because it illustrates more
clearly the path the ball is /trying/ to follow. It wouldn't try to
describe a spiral because the path it's trying to follow is an
ellipse around the planet's center of mass--it'd only start spiralling
if it did, in fact, make it into orbit, in which case what it's
trying to do is assume an elliptical orbit that's closer to the planet's
surface, only before it can make it the planet gets in the way. When you
throw it up, it /starts out/ in a stable orbit--but the planet gets
in the way before it gets very far.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:22:34
Message Number  7008

Yes, it is dumb. Funny, but dumb. (You don't believe it's funny, corner
somebody on the street and tell it to him--his expression will almost
certainly amuse you.)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:26:55
Message Number  7009

>...carries the Holy Flag of PC's for everyone into battle against
>the Dark Knight of VAX...
 
AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:29:51
Message Number  7010

>Can you think of another culture that has not only endured such
>treatment but has overcome in the process?
 
Buddhists, during the First Dynasty in Japan when the emperor declared
Shinto to be the official religion and reserved special persecution for
those who were unfortunate enough to admit that they were Buddhist?
 
...or is that a rhetorical question?
 
I'd still say that the fact that a belief is popular, or capable of
inspiring fanaticism among its followers, or even long-lived doesn't
necessarily have any bearing on its validity.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: <*>:*.*.*           
Subject: -///-          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:34:46
Message Number  7011

"It's too far away," Turtle says unnecessarily as Mulligan comes to the
same conclusion himself. The reptile gazes around the bar, then pokes
at the piano, still sending the odd trail of smoke into the air. "I
like pianos," he says to nobody in particular. "Um, you know, you don't
just bring something like that into Ranea, and I don't care WHO you are.
Ain't nobody nowhere would bring a thing like that here just to get one
person. Doesn't matter how pissed off they were, there's easier ways to
go after somebody, you know? That thing was already here before somebody
took a liking to our friendly local insurance salesman. I bet Wezip's
right arm that someone's started stockpiling--uh--stock...hey, are you
listening to me?" The turtle makes an exasperated noise at Mulligan's
back. "I said, there's--oh, never mind." Turtle makes a rude noise and
sits heavily on the stool next to Rufus, which collapses under his
weight, dumping the surprised-looking reptile on the floor for the
third time today. He picks it up and turns it over to reveal the scorch
marks on its underside. "Um, where's Donthen? He needs to get better
bar furniture, you know?"
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: things...      
Date & Time: 07/31/90 01:27:26
Message Number  7013

>...is it worth the outrageous entry fee?
 
  Well, it all depends. I, myself, would pay $30 to see the backlot 
where they filmed "Back to the Future"... unfortunately, that's still 
standing in California, and not here... 
  The rides at Universal aren't big "rides" like rollercoasters, but if 
you're interested in film and such, then it doesn't really matter. When 
I went, the ride part of "Earthquake" was closed, and "Kongfrontation" 
was closed totally. The "Jaws" ride is fun. The "E.T." ride is really
spectacular, and I felt compensated for the two 1/2 hours waiting the 
first day (the next day, we got through in ten minutes, being in front 
of the line)... 
  
  If you're into memorabilia, there is a shop that has authentic items 
valued at hundreds of dollars, pluss they sell just about anything 
related to Universal films you can think of... (the novel from "Back to 
the Future" was there, after I had spent a long time trying to find it 
locally)
 
   They have street sets that are authentic down to small details that 
you actually can walk through, and they have great tours and shows.
 
   There were some other good things about it, too. If the things I've 
mentioned don't interest you, then you probably won't find it worth the 
admission, but I found it fascinating, and much better than Disney/MGM 
Studios...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: oobleck        
Date & Time: 07/31/90 01:48:27
Message Number  7014

  Fine, now I know how to get my hand out of the stuff, but how do I 
make the stuff???
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/31/90 02:07:30
Message Number  7015

I'd rather see 24 hrs. of Rush, myself.  Or Pink Floyd.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: ...                 
Subject: ...            
Date & Time: 07/31/90 02:37:20
Message Number  7016

     I stand up and look at the remains of my briefcase, which reminds
me of the time my toaster blew up.  From the smoking remains dangling
from the chain around my wrist, I can hear the words "index phagocytic
low" being repeated over and over.  I bash the briefcase on the counter
and it finally stops.
     "Angel, you should really stop running around like that," I say
and add "Uh-oh" as Mulligan walks towards me. He asks me the dreaded
question.  "Why's somebody trying to kill me?  Uh....errr, job hazards,
I guess.  I dunno anyone pissed enough to send a robot after me.  Those
things /are/ expensive, and my death's not worth that much," I respond.
 Mulligan, looking less than happy with my answer, was about to respond
when Turtle walked over, sat down, and promptly met the floor with a
loud crash. 
     Mulligan turns to address the reptile and I slip over to Angel.  I
watch as the wound finishes repairing itself and comment, "Ya know,
that's a pretty neat trick.  Did you happen to mention this on your
insurance application?  You'd get 8% off.  I'm lucky I didn't get
wounded since the briefcase /did/ blow up on me."  I quickly reach
behind my back and feel my left shoulder, or what remains of it.  Damn,
damn, damn.  This is not good.
  
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Rights?        
Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:08:54
Message Number  7017

Did you say "homosexuals" have rights or not?, I am a little confused on
your stance in this matter.
 
TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: BIG LEW             
Subject: Applause       
Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:10:30
Message Number  7018

Yo, Lew, I don't know who you are, but I wanted to drop a line to
tell you, "It's about time", although I no longer lead the "life" of 
what would be considered "a noble christian", I still believe in the one
Almighty.  It's about time there was someone open and not ashamed to
be a "Christian" and speak about it...(I stand and congradulate you)
 
TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: BIG LEW             
Subject: Homosexuals    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:13:29
Message Number  7019

I prefer to think of "Homosexuality" an alternative, rather than
use your termination of "not normal", who is dictating what is Normal
or not?....We could say Christianity is not normal in our society today.
.....but who am I to define "normal"
 
TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS
===========

From: ETC...              
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Applause       
Date & Time: 07/31/90 10:55:23
Message Number  7020

"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times..." That about sums
up todays world of belief and disbelief...
===========

From: BIG LEW             
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: applause accept
Date & Time: 07/31/90 14:06:29
Message Number  7022

Congratulations accepted (modestly, of course) as it seems this 
admission tends to make most people very uncomfortable.  Not that I pre-
tend to be perfect: I have some very nasty vices and do not consider my-
self living the "perfect" (whatever that is) Christian life.  But, I
know that HE accepts me and forgives my sinS and believing that is very
important and goes hand in hand in believing in salvation.
===========

From: BIG LEW             
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Homosexuals    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 14:13:05
Message Number  7023

You are absolutely right (what is the definition of that?)  The word 
normal is not the word I wanted.  It is abnormal only to me, meaning 
that is not a part of what I believe in.  And, what "should be and 
shouldn't be" are only personal opinions, which I can accept the 
opinions of others and I love to disagree, based again on what I think
is normal.  Do you realize how far a conversation could go on just
the definition of normal?  I do stand corrected and yet, still can't
think what word I really wanted to use.  I did check and somebody else
told me that "gerbiling" is an actual practice.  I guess I'm still
astounded by that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/s
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: JONBOY              
Subject: smoking        
Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:30:52
Message Number  7024

I have the same problem (re: using cigarettes as "props" or "cue cards")
when it comes to drawing.  I used to smoke 3 packs a day, but if I was
entertaining the muse I'd go through a pack in about an hour.  Ever 
since I quit smoking my production rate whenever I find the time to sit
at the drawing board (which hasnt been for months..sigh..)has decreased
unbelievably.
                          The Yngling
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: BLACK MAGIC         
Subject: Earth?         
Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:41:58
Message Number  7025

Dearest Lady -
>I could ask the same of the Yngling...
So ask! :)
         The Yngling
  Everything changes.
  It always changes
   and it doesnt mean that
  What you had or have
   is any less, just different.
  We all grow up.
            -Sherri McMurrin
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:55:15
Message Number  7026

The first time my wife heard about "gerbaling" she refused to believe
it.  I had to find three separate independent sources in order to prove
it to her...at which point she became physically ill.  California seems
to breed some really sick bastards doesnt it?  The part about rolling 
them in coke is a new twist I hadnt heard of yet...what next?
                                 The Yngling
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: RAVEN               
Subject: $$$            
Date & Time: 07/31/90 17:01:51
Message Number  7027

Why pay $35 to have someone else run a security check when you can do it
yourself?  Its surprisingly easy once you get started, and it can be
very educational when you start to realize exactly what information is
available to /anyone/ who wants to bother to look for it.
                                  The Yngling
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: BEATLE              
Subject: MTV            
Date & Time: 07/31/90 17:15:35
Message Number  7028

Anyone who can sit through an entire episode of "Just Say Julie" without
being physically restrained and therefore unable to reach the remote, or
not under the influence of mind altering drugs (and I dont even want to
try and imagine watching that show stoned...) has been living in his or
her basement for too long and should seriiously consider seeking help
(either from a psychobabblist or from a Nielson family member).
                                      The Yngling
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 07/31/90 18:21:01
Message Number  7029

 > Or Pink Floyd.
 
  I dunno if you'll find that on VH-1. They do have a marathon of 
someone every Sunday, though. They've done two stretches of Paul 
McCartney, which is fine, but they used less than half of their library 
of his videos. They've even done three days of Phil Collins and Genesis.
  MTV had a Pink Floyd special on the other night after the Knebworth 
concert (which was 11 hours of performers, including Paul McCartney, 
Genesis, and Pink Floyd, cut down to a mere 4 hours 50 minutes)...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:03:59
Message Number  7030

Well, my friend Darryl works volunteer at the Presidio hospital and t
that stuff has been going on for years.  Your friend embellishes the
story just a tad however.  #12 they use heavy rubber balloons so that
the rodent can't scratch or bite.  It is the motion that "gets them
off".  The idea of rolling it in Coke is pure fantasy as Coke is
an anisthetic and would actually circumvent any pleasure by numbing
the anal passageway.
Now - maybe it isn't kosher to use a live animal as a sex toy, but is
the practice any different that a man/woman inserting items into the
vagina/anus as a sexual technique? 
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:10:04
Message Number  7031

Believe it or not - you probably have been oogled by a male homosexual
and never even knew it.  Further, if you are even suspected of being
hetero the chances are slim that he will attempt to contact, talk or
in any way deal with you on any other that a very shallow layer.
Most homosexuals realize that their position and lifestyle are open to
critique and minimum and violent opposition at worst from their fellow
human beings - they have learned to be careful when out of their
"element".
As far as other "deviant" sexual practices.  Women are sexually mature
at various ages between 10 and 15 years of age.  I personally know of
a lady that actively *encourages* her 14 year old daughter to have
boyfriends stay over and share her bed.  She is a very "normal" 14
year old in every way and I can't say that early sexual experience has
hurt her one bit.  Her Mom's rational: I would rather have her under
the roof of a safe house than groping around who the hell knows where
and I would rather have her know about and USE contraceptives than have
a surprise for me someday".
I also knew of a man and his wife that had the same attitude in Calif-
ornia.  His daughter climbed into bed with my roomate and he almost
had a cow "You're only 13!" he hissed!  She left and came back with
her sleepy dad who said " Be picky Mark - but please don't be a prude!".
He was concerned about his daughter feeling rejected and rather approved
of her propensity to take older lovers rather than "rash youths" as he
phrased it.
Now - what narrow little way are YOU going to prescribe as "normal"?
Should a lot of Japanese and Hindu writings and art be burned as 
pornographic because it deals with sex in many forms between consenting
adults?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:21:32
Message Number  7032

I'm curious - are you aware of what the subject matter of "Lola" by
the Kinks is all about?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:23:02
Message Number  7033

How in hell did you manage to include bona-fide criminal acts with
percieved "crimes against nature".  /Forcing/ the sexual act upon 
anyone without their consent is an abomination and a crime.  No one
is arguing that point.  It a pretty piss-poor argument tactic worthy
of McCartheism to try and undermine a valid topic with slander and
misdirected allegations.  Please sir, confine yourself to valid 
argumental topics!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:26:22
Message Number  7034

But that DOES leave open the possiblity of a feminine male and
a masculine female by your own admission.  Besides the point that
homosexuality has not one iota to a quark in it's dealings with
the concept of masculine and feminine.  They are irrelevant topics
in any discussion on homosexuality.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: Sorry          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:36:56
Message Number  7035

Sorry - that's MY quote!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:39:15
Message Number  7036

I /love/ that quote " to preach to the convinced"!!!  Sadly - a lot
of people really feel that way.  What is truly meant is that questions
that you may have had on /many/ subjects thru the bible will be made
clearer to you after you are a Christian.  I mean - what are the
references to "gods" in the psalms?  The answer will make more sense to
a Christian - but also you have to study hard and understand a LOT to
get to the root of the matter.  The Bible has many minor plots and
minor intrigues to be looked into - but many of them simply cannot
be understoof outside the framework of Christianity/Judaism.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bible          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:44:04
Message Number  7037

Good quote - I notice that it seems the proof was not lacking?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: spam           
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:48:09
Message Number  7038

The connection was "meat substitute" a rather old cliche' that I assumed
everyone would be familiar (if not tired) of. A moment of weakness...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:49:32
Message Number  7039

Hey the drugs are the eggs fried in Butter.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BOB ARDREN          
Subject: Age            
Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:57:27
Message Number  7040

You are absolutely so far out in left field that I'm kinda glad you 
aren't in a little closer.  I have never ever bitched about young people
and have even come to their defense several times on this board.
Youth has absolutely no part in my judgements or comments unless
it is of an accepted descriptive nature that /may/ connote "youth"
such as immature, childish - which I will add here and now are applicabl
to ANYONE that deserves them regardless of chronological age.
Have I made my position clear?  As a newcomer I would bid you welcome
but please get to "know" someone before pulling the anal-cranial 
insertion maneuver.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:02:14
Message Number  7041

Ok, let's not get nasty.  YOU were referiing to cults in the context
of Christanity and I simply followed the lead.  Manson lead a cult and
claimed he was teh Christ but I doubt that you would bend the 
definition that you so playfully bat about to his little gang.
There are recognized denominations (recognized by who?- themselves
of course!  Everyone loves a cicular definition and here it is!).
Cults as I tend to use the term are Christian sects that their beliefs
depend on some special revelation and/or dispensation.  I ignore the
fringe groups like Baha'i and the followers of Yogi Rajaneeshjaphur
who advocated sexual freedom and promiscuity in his kingdom that they
were booted out of in Oregon.  There are books published by recognized
Christian publishers, accepted by all faiths as guidelines to these
cults.  I simply would rather refer you to the fact that this is how 
thet are viewed by the religious organizations that be.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: small world    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:09:10
Message Number  7042

I program computers and build custom production and lab testing
equipment for them.  Steve used to do this but he saw the promo
express comin thru and pounced as his progenitor fell on his face.
So far I assume they are satisfied with his work.  We tend to 
cover each others butts as our vested interests lie on the same plane.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:11:21
Message Number  7043

I was referring to the "fact" that as they were in the heart of the
maelstrom - they were in contact with a richness of lore and stories t\
that we can only allude to.  Being that close to the source it would
seem to me (maybe mistakenly) that they would also be able to see
any lies and half-truths more clearly.  Simply put - they had the
benefit of proximity to fuel their faith.  Some actually knew the man
and went to their death singing his praises.  Strange behavior for
a deluded man - is it not?  I prefer to think that their faith was 
reinforced by the simple mechanism they were close to its' source
and were better able to judge its' authenticity.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:15:32
Message Number  7044

Borrowed - the RC church borrowed heavily from the pagan festivals
and decided that the best PR was to move the dates of Christian holidays
to coincide so as to minimize the conversion trauma.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:18:12
Message Number  7045

What manifest bullshit (tm)!  Better yet assume a black hole as one 
focii and maybe you have something except the mechanism to put the ball 
into the proper frame of reference...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:19:48
Message Number  7046

Hehehe - ya like the way I slipped that in did ya! <snigger>
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:20:45
Message Number  7047

True - it was an emotionally laden appeal.  Happy?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: oobleck        
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:23:47
Message Number  7048

I have no idea how you actually make oobleck. The only person I know
of who /does/ know has left the state, so the mystery may be unsolved
forever.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:24:36
Message Number  7049

I'd MUCH rather see Rush or Pink Floyd than Madonna, in the same way I'd
rather be given a Swedish massage by Nastassia Kinski than have my left
foot amputated by a young child with a chainsaw.
 
MTV had a Pink Floyd special on last Saturday after their re-broadcast
of Knebworth. Pink Floyd gets two hours, Madonna gets a day...go figure.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: ETC...              
Subject: Applause       
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:28:41
Message Number  7050

>That about sums up todays world of belief and disbelief.
 
Not only that, but it'd be a dandy way to start a book, too.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: $$$            
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:31:21
Message Number  7051

>Why pay $35 to have somebody else run a security check on you...
 
I think he's referring to a credit check. TRW will supply anyone with
anyone else's credit history for thirty-five bucks. There's a reward
of $2,000 that's been offered by someone whose name I forget to the
first person who can show that his credit history is 100% error-free;
it's been offered for two years that I'm aware of and so far nobody's
collected.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:34:18
Message Number  7052

>...is the practice [of gerbiling] any different than a man/woman
>inserting items into the vagina/anus as a sexual technique?
 
Is this a trick question? I'd say the obvious answer is "yes."
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:37:38
Message Number  7053

>The Bible has many minor plots and minor intrigues to be looked into -
>but many of them cannot be understood outside the framework of
>Christianity/Judiasm.
 
Yes, that is absolutely true. I don't think that means that you have
to /be/ a Christian in order to understand them, though; were that the
case, the Bible'd be pretty useless as a method of gaining converts
(or "convincing people of the Truth," if you will). Seems to me that
the direct word of an active and living god would be more universal than
some Christains would think--the pronouncements from On High which are
supposed to be good news to all humankind are not going to be accessable
only to those who already buy into the faith to begin with, now, are
they? A poor revelation indeed /that/ would be! It sounds to me that
this is more of a case of "Once I believe with all my heart then the
mysteries of Christianity go away because I no longer have to think
about them rationally. Pity the poor people who haven't seen the Light
yet and still think rationally about this stuff."
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Bible          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:42:28
Message Number  7054

The arguments are certainly there for convincing us that the triune god
is a singular entity, but they're kinda awkward and kludgy. Proof?
Depends on who you ask. A system of faith is not generally subject to
"proof" at all. It all depends on whether or not you're convinced by
the eloquence of the argument.
 
Speaking of which, another quote from the same man got me thinking
last night. Dr. Snyder also said "We follow the Hebrews, who struggle
and struggle and eventually come up with monotheism. Then they turn
around and give it to the Indo-Europeans and what happens? Bang! They
invent the Trinity." The concept of the Trinity seems to be a fairly
recent invention, one that post-dates the branching of Islam from
Judiasm (Muslims consider the Trinity to be the rankest form of
heresy), and it originated in a place whose dominant religion of the
time was Wicca, which has (are you ready for this?) a Trinity of its
own--the three faces of the Goddess (maiden, mother, and crone).
Hmmmmmmmmmm....it wouldn't be the first idea Christianity borrowed
from Wicca...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:49:42
Message Number  7055

Simple proximity to the source has never been shown to be of any value
in determining a religion's authenticity--lookit all the various
beliefs wandering around, from Dianetics to the followers of Sun
Moyen Moon (or whatever the hell his name is), and you'll see that.
A highly charismatic individual can get people to do, say, or believe
almost anything--and the fact that you're standing right next to him
doesn't mean you're more likely to decide he's a fake. The fact that
Christianity has managed to survive for as long as it has speaks more,
I think, for its history of...aah, how to say? brutal approach to
gaining acceptance than it does to any intrinsic value; hell, there's
a lotta faiths older than Christianity (Shinto, Wicca, Hinduism, etc,
etc) that are still doing quite nicely, thank you very much.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 08/01/90 03:06:18
Message Number  7056

>...go figure.
 
Madonna gets 12 times the coverage of Floyd.  How's that for figuring?
Madonna, the lady who should register her outfits as lethal weapons.
"My god, it was awful, she ran in here with her bronze breasts and 
poked his eyes out."
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: TURTLE              
Subject: aristotle      
Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:26:11
Message Number  7057

Continue to fear. The ansawer is Aristotle. Aquinus borrowed heavily fro
m him. He borrowed from Plato, the dude not the system.
The cave bit is an example of what a true believer has to accept.
I believe that the idea of an orange tree growing in the center
of the room is fascinating. It is there because I believe it is
 there. You can have the same belief but the tree can be over by
the door. The two trees will never colide and I can walk through
your tree as you can walk through mine.
.s
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: MAX                 
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:37:14
Message Number  7058

Max if a person makes a really bad mistake. A mistake that is socially n
ot acceptable to my culture I get uptight and step back a few yards.
This dude made such a mistake. I was debating whether to run the
mile in 4 minutes or say I accept you for who you are.
I accepted him for who he is. This was quite a change from my normal
reaction. This Christianity is potent stuff. I said to D... I may
disagree with you life style but you basically are a person
I want to know.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: RAVEN               
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:45:06
Message Number  7059

Ever try to change some of that data? I proved to a court magistrate
that a document was wrong. He had the power to seal the document
but refused. He told me to write a reply to it. I did. The reply was
then evaluated as an opinion by his office even though his counsel
helped me writ the document. The reply was removed after a year.
The original document remains unchallenged. The attorney who helped
write the answer is a hundred dollars wealthier and the judge
could care less about the whole affair. The law is a farse.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:53:19
Message Number  7060

Non-sequitor means that the idea being expressed does not follow
the thought that was just expressed by you. I read the word in an Isanov
book and it met that the speaker was not being logical. The speaker was 
not stating black and white truths. His words had gray meanings
===========

From: MAX                 
To: YNGLING             
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 13:51:37
Message Number  7062

> California seems to breed some really sick bastards doesnt it?
 
Perhaps, but I suspect no worse so than a lot of big cities in this
country and across Europe.  They just don't have the reputation that
CA does -- most of which is, one suspects, exaggeration.  I know a lot
of people in California, and a lot of them are weird, but
proportionately no more so than people I know in other parts of the
country.  A lot of European countries are a lot more accepting of sexual
behavior "out of the norm" and, it seems, a little less sensitive to the
rights of others (even, as in the sick example at hand, of animals) as
Americans are, perhaps especially Californians.  If CA is more accepting
of behavior that the rest of the country finds "weird," it's probably
for the better, not the worse.  And I suspect very few Californians woul
be tolerant of 'gerbiling' for the reasons a few people on this board
have raised -- it's effectively torturing animals to death.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 14:00:24
Message Number  7063

> Is the practice any different than inserting items into the vagina/
> anus as a sexual technique?
 
Yes.  One's torturing an animal to death, the other one isn't.  Seems
to be a pretty clear difference to me.
===========

From: DONTHEN             
To: ANGEL               
Subject: rip            
Date & Time: 08/01/90 16:03:58
Message Number  7064

   Wezip blinks, looking somewhat confused, then focuses on	 the
question he was just asked.  "None.  A friend of mine from Rionar is
coming up -- Jack usually stays with me when he's on business.  And,"
the fox sighs deeply, "he talked me into letting some friend of his stay
with me until he finds a place to live here.  Some starving artist
type, Mika, Mikey, something like that.  It's times like these that make
me glad the real estate agent talked me into getting a house with a
guest room."
---
   "An assassin guild is more expensive than you're evidently aware of,"
Mulligan says irritably to Turtle, the only visible sign that he was
paying attention to the reptile.  He points at the readout on the
briefcase and addresses Rufus.  "Would you mind enlightening us
uneducated types as to what a 'phygocatic index' is -- and, perhaps, how
it connects to whatever just attacked you?"
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:29:20
Message Number  7066

T>Plato was a bore.  
  
So was Polonius.  So?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:30:39
Message Number  7067

S>Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness
 
T>A difficult premiss to support, I think, 
  
Yes, that's the trouble.  What you think...and half the other people.
You just don't understand that it is a sickness.  A mental defect.
Men are not supposed to be attracted to other men, otherwise
we'd be HERMAPHRODITES!  (SP?)  Men just don't have the proper equipment
to have sexual relations with other men; it's like trying to stuff a 
square peg into a round hole!  It wasn't designed to work that way.
YOU (and half the other folks) just don't seem to understand that
FACT.  Now, that dissapoints me, because you seem to have a very good
grip on other facts.  I can dissmiss others as not having a good grip
on facts in general. 
  I don't know why I bother to explain it to you, you jsut can't seem 
to get that FACT thru your head.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:38:49
Message Number  7068

T>S>>Public opinion changes...reinforce...opinoin...
T>S>>
T>
T>I'm sorry, I simply cannot accept bigotry as "moral",
T>
  That's the beauty of it.  No one CARES what you think.  And 
so, society goes on it's bigoted way.  And fully believes that 
it is doing the "moral" thing.  (How about when we weren't so 
enlightened about black people?  It was common for some folk to 
have slaves...and it was considered perfectly ok for someone to 
abuse them. Where was the morality then?  Do you think anyone would
have cared what you thought was moral or immoral?  Hell, no.)
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:43:54
Message Number  7069

T>The only evidence you've provided to support your judgement of 
T>homosexuality so far is "everyone else thinks that way"!
  
You are full of shit.  Really.  Unmitigated, manifest, BULLSHIT.
You haven't listened to (read) a word I've said (typed), have you? 
And where do you get off calling it a judgement?   All I have done
is told you fact.  Things weren't meant to go like that.  To do like
that is the sign of a sick mind.   IT FOLLOWS!  LOGICALLY.  
Besides, on an issue like this, you can only take one of three positions
available.  Pro, Anti, or Neutral. 
  
"Look there ain't no in between. Either you suck dick, or you don't 
suck dick."  -  Andrew "Dice" Clay 
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:51:44
Message Number  7070

What would you say about a person who constantly had his finger up his
ass?   Or thier toes up thier nose?   Would you say they were strange?
How about if they enjoyed having their ass?  I mean, really enjoyed it,
got off on it and everything?  Would you say that person is a normal
member of society?  Now, how about if he did it in public, right next
to your booth in a restaraunt?  Would you still thing, oh, a average 
member of society?  
  I don't think so.  I personally would reccomend a good psychiatrist.  
I might get offended.  (Hah! "might")  
  Why?  You might say. That's just a preference that he has?  No, I'd
reply as if to a child, he's sick.  You shouldn't put things where they
weren't meant to go, no matter how much you enjoy it.  You can get 
diseases that way.  
  
  Didn't your mother teach you anything?  Or didn't you listen?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:00:24
Message Number  7071

Do you know what connotation means?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:03:35
Message Number  7072

R>...figuring yours at about a 6....
  
Fuck you.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:08:55
Message Number  7073

S>Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness.
S>
R>As is monogamy, if you take rate of occurance as the indicator.
R>
  I don't.   Monogamy or polygamy is the the issue.  What you said has
abosolutely no bearing on this issue.  It is irrelevant.
  [D
Man was not meant to have sexual relations with man.  Period.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: I did not say  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:13:00
Message Number  7074

R>But you did say that morality was determined by popular opinion.
R>Please explain the reconcilliation of these two apparently
R>contradictory statements.
  
I said that popular opinion determined society's morality.  There is
no contradiction.  There is no need for reconcilliation.  Please pay
attention.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: V                   
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:17:39
Message Number  7075

V>...show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate.
  
  No problem.
  
V>...show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate.
  
Yes, but I wasn't saying "slightly"...I was talking abou all-out
swishing!  And the exact opposites for thier counterparts!
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: MAX                 
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:20:55
Message Number  7076

Homosexuals can be classified as sick by comparison with any other 
act which is abnormal.  (See my note to Beatle.)  
  On that precept, let me ask you a question...would you accept any
person's word who has been declared insane?  To what degree is not
relevant, just answer the question.  
  
  And something else for you to consider...just because they haven't
said that homo's aren't sick doesn't mean that they actually AREN'T.
  
Besides, what doctor is going put down a prospective patient?  I know
that if my reputation (and my finances) depended on whether or not I
claimed homos were actually sick, (and I knew that doing so would 
reflect adversely) I would never admit it!
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Guitars        
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:33:41
Message Number  7077

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEWwwwwwwwww
 
 Right over my head..."like a Strat but only 2 pickups..."
Sounds great!  "Scarborough Fair"  "Bad Moon Risin" "Hotel California"
"Peace Train"...
  The Doghouse? Isn't that a restaraunt?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:36:34
Message Number  7078

Ok.  Then, since I forgot, I will on the same terms, conceede the point.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: JOB            
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:38:15
Message Number  7079

Sounds cool.  Do you ever use Orcad or like that?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:58:39
Message Number  7080

S>SICK_SICK_SICK_SICK_SICK...
  
Ah, the calvary has arrived.   Where the hellya been?  These guys
are "preference"ing me to death!
  
Of course, you realize that they are going to dismiss your point 
with a wave and say, 
  "Well, that's sick because they used an animal...it's still a
preference..." 
  
  I swear to GOD...sometimes they make me sick.
 
  "Methinks the woman doth protest too much...." (or somthing like
that) --  Shakespeare
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: AJ <TheGUN)    
Date & Time: 08/01/90 19:04:02
Message Number  7081

I think you oughta be made aware that AJ is a homosexual.  I've met
him.  In person.  
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Normal         
Date & Time: 08/01/90 19:08:36
Message Number  7082

Normal.  As in the opposite of abnormal.  The label is perfect.  If 
we use terms like "socially acceptable" or "homophobially recognized" 
then we don't get the meaning across because people have to cut through
the crap to get at the real meaning...it's simpler to say "normal" and
express what is meant.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 21:55:06
Message Number  7083

Seems to me thatthe direct word of an active and living god would be 
more universal than some Christains would think--
 
C'mon!  Is that to say that the person who reads a book by - say -
John le Carre' and only sees the obvious spy plot without the subtle
intrigue is as good or an effective reader as say a person that has
actual experience. I would say that experience and understanding of
the subject matter make the nuances a little more easy to grasp and even
obvious where otherwise they would be a simple footnote.  The Bible as
literature is very complex and carries many messages at various levels.
To understand some of the more profound messages takes study and a
certain amount of acceptyance of the subject matter. A little prayer
never hurt for elucidation either..
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bible          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:00:46
Message Number  7084

T>depends on whether or not you're convinced bythe eloquence ...
Not necessarily true - this would involve a semantic based argument.
What it does depend on is acceptance of the Bible as God's word.
Without this you don't even have the basis of an argument.
T>concept of the Trinity seems to be a fairly recent invention,
If you look at the surface and consider only the New Test.  In the old
testamnet there are many visits by what are initially specified as "
"angels" that in fact many scholars believe to be visits from Christ
himself - the note here is that even back then they refer to this entity
as Lord.  The best example of this is where the three visitors come by 
and visit Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah.  Since we have
testimony that the face of God the Father may not be looked upon, we 
must assume that this particular Lord that Abraham is talking to must be
a part of the Godhead.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:06:26
Message Number  7085

I would like to point out that these charismatic individuals have never 
been put to quite the test as have early Christians.  The worst they get
is the occasional beatings from rednecks, irate travellers in airports
and the occasional security guard or so.  Followers of some of the low
level cults (like the gurus) are even more casual about dropping their 
mentors with little thought.  Groups like the moonies actually are a 
slightly different case because they practise mind altering techniques
akin to brainwashing techniques developed many years ago.  There is a
whole group of people dedicated to kidnapping moonies and reprogramming
them to return to their families.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Reality        
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:10:49
Message Number  7086

I have one in my backyard that I don't give a damn how many times you
think you can go through it you will break your nose.
What was the name of that British priest or whatever - the one that
wrote the cute little poem about perception in the garden and how 
the entire framework of what we know is held together by the infinite 
perception of the Almighty Himself?  He was a contemporary with Hobbs
(who was the spiritual father of the constitution).
Philosophy - weird stuff but a good exercise for the mind.  I find
people like Sartre' to be far more readable (if no more believable)
than off the wall philosophies on the tangible world around us.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:16:05
Message Number  7087

Non-sequitor means ----speaker was not being logical...
It means that the speaker or debater was not presenting a line of 
thought consistant with the current line of reasoning.  Truth has
very little to do with a debate unless it is challenged on those
grounds.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:18:54
Message Number  7088

You and Turtle both have the same reply - if it wasn't such a pain I'd
reread the post - I thought that I had made it clear that the suffering
of the animal was totally unacceptable - what I was attempting to 
ascertain was the viewpoint of - aside frome those concerns - was the
speaker concerned with the practise of inserting objects into bodily 
orifices morally objectionable as "sick".  People can have more than one
level of objection on a subject and I was simply trying to isolate
one, ie - what is *really* bothering you?  The plight of the animal
or the fact that inserting objects is "kinky".
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:24:31
Message Number  7089

Sorry - the fact that you so blithly pander as truth is a statement
without truth or logic within itself.  Any human being has the 
capability to evaluate a situation and come to a decision and 
implement a plan of action.  The hom,osexual realizes his/her
predisposition and if they are mentally healthy - accept their
preference as reality and act on that premise by taking lovers of like
tendancy.  This is a decision made with rational thought and hardly
a disease that can be treated with chicken soup.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:38:48
Message Number  7090

 S>Look there ain't no in between. Either you suck dick, or you don't  
S>suck dick."  -  Andrew "Dice" Clay 
   
That particular quote was in reference to either women or male gays.
It hardly affects or addresses the question of lesbianism.  It's effect
is simply to shock us poor liberals - but - Ho-hum - we are adults 
and hopefully are cogizant of the gratification associated with  
fellatio and cunnilingus.    
 Sorry bud, Turtle's correct in that you have provided no support for 
your assertion that "everyone else thinks that way".  Tell ya what..  
 go on several boards in /any/ area that you choose and see if you can 
get enough replies to convince us that moral cretinism is alive and 
well in redneck amerika.  I wish your best friend would tell you he's 
 gay so that you would be forced to pull your head out of your ass long 
enough to think with your brain. The problem that you exhibit is a 
fascination with violation of the particular orifice known as the 
"poop chute".  Learn that it is of no consequence to you what another
person's sexual orientation is... Live and Let live as the old cliche 
goes...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:44:31
Message Number  7091

Y'know - as an interesting sidelight do you know that according to 
a study performed in the mid-sixties - about 70% of all american
males have a  homosexual encounter of /some/ kind by the time they are
18 years old?  Wasn't yours good?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Guitars        
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:47:33
Message Number  7092

Yeah just off 41 the light before you hit Cortez.
Ain't this great?  We can get all pissed off at each other over a
gay issue or God and still take a break to talk guitars.  I have /my/
priorities straight!  Yeah - a Strat has 3 staggered pickups and a
5 position switch - mine has 2 pickups and a 3 position switch.
Basically the same sound. I use it and the Gibson for blues/boogie
and some Rock.  The Ibanez is all rock-n-roll.  My 12 string is
for Eagles and Dan Fogelberg etc (America)
Maybe we can have some Tacos someday, declare a moratorium on the gay
issue and flirt with Dianne the bartender...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: JOB            
Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:52:09
Message Number  7093

I use both OrCAD STD /// and the printed circuit package PCB //.
Usually I use off the shelf stuff because it just makes no sense
to make a custom board that someone else has for a one-off piece
of equipment.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: VH-1           
Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:29:59
Message Number  7094

> Madonna gets 12 times the coverage of Floyd.
 
  Yeah, annoying isn't it. At least they haven't sunk to the lowest form
of entertainment possible - 24
hours of New Kids On the Block. At least Madonna's music has a bit going
for it... some of the songs are interesting pop (you all know I don't 
hate pop as much as you do), and 
some just suck heavy moose dung.
   Unfortunately, Madonna SELLS more than Pink Floyd... the market is 
teenagers, and Madonna appeals more than Pink Floyd... the same thing 
can happen to anybody. MTV caters to the masses, and occasionally to 
smaller groups...
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:39:13
Message Number  7095

 > ...can't seem to get that FACT thru your head.
 
  I got the fact through my head, and I still stand on Turtle's side. 
The whole subject is touchy. I think you've made a great point, but the 
fact that we are not hermaphrodites doesn't mean homosexuality is a 
sickness. I find the point very convincing... but it leaves things open.
By the logic I think you are following, sex is strictly for reproduction
of the species. Following that idea, any sexthat does not produce 
offspring can be equated with homosexuality. This still leaves the idea 
of the "sickness" unproved.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:45:44
Message Number  7096

> IT FOLLOWS!  LOGICALLY.
 
  No, the fact that something is done different than intended doesn't 
indicate a sickness.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:58:32
Message Number  7097

  Just because someone exhibits an odd behavior doesn't mean they're 
sick. If someone sticks their finger up their nose in public constantly,
I believe that's the fault of the parents for not making sure the child 
didn't do that. It /could/ be a symptom of a sickness, but not always.
 
 > Didn't your mother teach you anything?
 
   Yes, she taught me the way to think the way I do, which has gotten me
pretty far. I also have learned how to take care of myself and be mature
...
 
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:04:49
Message Number  7098

>Viola!  A brand-new religion that absolutely cannot be disproven by
>any feat of logic whatever.
  
And L. Ron Hubbard created the Word and saw that it was good.  And on
the seventh day he rested in order to tabulate the proceeds...
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: things...      
Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:11:11
Message Number  7099

Thanks for the descriptive journey through Universal.  You didn't notice
if they had piano music in the memorabilia store, did you?  Anyway,
sounds like a place I'd enjoy, darn it!  Why don't I like cheap places?
===========

From: ANGEL               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: definition     
Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:43:11
Message Number  7100

> Okay, let's not get nasty.
  I wasn't getting nasty.  I said if I was wrong, correct me...and made
sure to end the post with a joke.  How far do I have to go to demon-
strate to yourself (and others) that I am not angry when I disagree.
As far as considering a cult any group that depends on some
"special revelation and dispensation"... that applies to all religions.
Certainly being born-again is "special revelation".  And Christ's death
on the cross is the ultimate dispensation.  You keep using vague terms
to make your points, such as "the fact that this is how they are viewed
by the religious organizations that be."  Well, my religious organiza-
tion exists, and it certainly doesn't view what you call "cults" in that
way.  Specifically, what groups are you referring to?  You make claims
that mainstream Christianity thinks in these ways, however, I return
examples of Christian groups that don't feel that way and you reject
them.  I can have no objection with you saying "this is how I feel" or
"this is the view of my church", it's when you claim that your view is
held by all Christians, I can't let it stand unchallenged; since I am
a Christian, and I (as well as my church) disagree
   Please allow me the freedom to question your statements without
you claiming I am somehow lacking in manners.
===========

