LIST
FILE ON
MARGIN IS 72 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask......
2 ********************* REMOVED: 3 AUG 83 ****************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 
26 A new disk?  A new disk!! Wheeee!!!! So come on, guys, lets have some real meaty concepts here.  Whatever happened to
27 the Inn, anyway?  Burn down?  Or have the barbarians overrun it?
28 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
29 
30 Here's a subject for you.  I recently purchased a copy of Datasoft's ZAXXON, and was VERY dissapointed. Not only didn't
31 it come up to the arcade version, it wasn't even as good as the cover art implide.  I realize that its hard to implimen
32 a version as complicated as the arcade version (with a dedicated micro inside), but I feel that they shouldn't imply 
33 that the playfield will be crowded with objects, and then give me a barren, empty playfield in the game.  Any comments?
34 ===================================
35 So what about the possibility that THREE phones are set up with call-forwarding
36 in such a way as to form a ring?  Or how about N phones, where N is a number
37 greater than 3?  Is call-forwarding recursive?
38 If it is true that call-forwarding phone A to phone B can somehow cancel
39 call forwarding from B to A, can a call be double-forwarded; i.e. from A to B
40 to C?
41 -------------------------------------
42 Anyone out there every had any 
43 
44 
45 
46 
47 
48 
49 
50 OOPS ...
51 anyway .. any experience with the Turning Test for AI? Would this be considered a valid test in all instances? This really 
52 interests me, I'd like some feed back.
53 
54 --------------------------------------
55 ----------------------------------------
56 IMPROBABLE BESTIARY:
57   The Time Traveler
58 
59 From Asimov Science Fiction.
60 
61 Come on right in and we'll begin
62 while I adjust the screen.
63 For I'm the Chronic Argonaut,
64 and here's my Time Machine.
65 Just pick a place in Time or Space
66 (Or somewhere in between)
67 Sit back, and then we'll go Somewhen
68 Inside my Time Machine!
69 
70 Pick an era to suit yourself: visit your
71    future self.
72 See ancient Rome in its glory.
73 You can breakfast with cavemen, or fly
74    with the brave men
75 who ride the first ship to Centauri.
76 You can witness the flight of those
77    brothers named Wright,
78 You can fight an extinct carnivore.
79 And enlist and enlist and enlist and
80    enlist
81 And enlist in the Hundred Years' War.
82 
83 Come right in and we'll begin
84 While I adjust the screen
85    (Steady on a bit: I've said that
86       alrady, haven't I?)
87 For I'm the Chronic Argonaut,
88 And here's my Time Machine.
89    (Ah, hullo! I see the problem: we're
90       stuck in a closed-loop dimensional
91       continuum, and Time is repeating
92       itself over and over again. How
93       interesting.)
94 Just pick a place in Time or Space or
95    Time or Space or Time or Space or
96    Time or Space or (Hmmmm, the time-
97    stream appears to be doubling back
98    on itself. Hand me that spanner
99    wrench and stand back won't you?)
100    Time or Space or Time or Space or...
101    WHACK!
102 Ah that's much better, thanks. Now,
103    which time-stream are we in?
104 
105 We'll have lunch with Rasputin and Sir
106    Isaac Newton
107 While sailing aboard the Titanic.
108 We'll have dinner at one with Attila
109    the Hun
110 In the midst of the Stock Market Panic.
111 We'll eat Dinosaur pie and a Dodo on rye
112 While the maidens of Babylon serve us.
113 (I'm informed that Jack the Ripper is
114    quite a good tipper,
115 But makes all the waitresses nervous.)
116 
117 Come down the hatch and close the latch
118    while I turn back the clocks.
119 We're off to reach Infinity; next stop
120    is Paradox!
121 If anyone wants the Renaissance
122 Or the early Pleistocene
123 Or One Million A.D., they can travel
124    with me
125 Inside my Time Machine!
126 ----------------------------------------
127 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
128    Also taken from Asimov Science Fiction:
129 
130    Everybody knows how widely bamboo is used in the Orient, for a thousand
131 different things, but few are aware that it is the fastest growing of all
132 woody-stemmed plants. In some areas such as Sri Lanka it can grow at a rate
133 of 16 inches in a single day, often reaching a height of more than 100 feet.
134 If the tip of a bamboo stalk is viewed through a power microscope, you can
135 actually SEE it grow!
136    It was near the middle of the twenty-first century that Professor Mitsu
137 Matsu, a Tokyo geneticist, succeeded in engineering a new bamboo species
138 that he called Fibonacci bamboo because of its remarkable way of growing.
139 Not only did it grow at a steadly accelerating rate, but the rate conformed
140 precisely to what mathematicians call a generalized Fibonacci sequence.
141    "Yes," said Dr. Matsu one sunny afternoon to Dr. Beatrice Mince, a vi-
142 siting geneticist from Philadelphia, "each day's growth is exactly equal
143 to the growth of the two preceding days. If a stalk grows A feet the first
144 day, and B feet the second day, the third day's growth of C feet will equal
145 A plus B."
146    "And the fourth day the growth will be B plus C?" asked Dr. Mince,
147 gazing in wonder at the tall hollow "trees" that were sprouting in the dense
148 bamboo forest through which they were strolling.
149    "Exactly. Every twenty-four hours the growth for that period is pre-
150 cisely the sum of the growths on the preceding two days. Fortunately,
151 when a stalk reaches a height of about five hundred feet, it stops growing."
152    "I know that Fibonacci sequences are involved in the growth patterns
153 of many plants," said Dr. Mince, "but this is really fantastic." She reach-
154 ed out to touch a bamboo joint that was making a faint humming sound. She
155 could feel it vibrating. "How much will this stalk grow today?"
156    "One hundred feet," Dr. Matsu replied.
157    "And when did it start to grow?"
158    "Six a.m. last Sunday. Today is Saturday. By tomorrow morning at six it
159 will have grown for exactly one week."
160    "How much did it grow on the first and second days?"
161    "I don't recall," said Dr. Matsu. "Different strains of Fibonacci bamboo
162 grow at different rates during the first two days. I'll have to check my
163 records."
164    "This presents us with a pretty problem in number theory. Assume that
165 the seven integers that represent the stalk's growth, on each of the seven
166 days, form the longest possible Fibonacci chain that ends in 100. Assume
167 also that the second day's growth exceeds that of the first day, and that
168 each day's growth is an integral number of feet. You now have all the
169 information you need to determine how many feet the stalk grew on the first
170 day and on the second day.
171 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
172 Ok you guys...Go solve the problem.
173 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
174 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
175   "Turning"? if you are going to play hardball,at least wear a mit....
176                  if anyone else (who at least knows of which they speak)
177            wants to have some action (lets stay away from old Martin
178            G. Mathmatical games and I.A's sci-fi mags) I am ready and
179            willing to participate...............
180                                                   Aaron
181 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
182  (much later......)
183       is Paul Abbus out there........or maybe he's the one with 
184     the strange spelling.........contact requested...............
185 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aaron<><><><><><><><><><><>
186 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ right on the spelling ... wrong on
187 the mit ... what y'u got aaron ... PA
188 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
189 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
190          the SUNDAY TRADER BBS
191               652-xxxx
192 
193   will be On-line SUNDAY for 24hrs.
194   Fearuring: Downloads for the Atari      (you'll need an Upload).
195 
196  What happens if you take Input from the Modem and put it in Operating System
197  RAM? Well that's what happend on AMIGO- SUNDAY last week. In some ways last
198  week was a success (installation of a   1200 baud Modem and auto-Baudrate)
199  But the Input bug didn't allow anyone   to really appreciate it. Now AMIGO-
200  SUNDAY has a new name and a new format- try it.
201 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
202 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
203  paul? (^) is that you?
204   if so...I have heard some reports of intelligence from nw/bbs
205 users generaly pointing in your direction....is this,at least,somewhat
206 accurate?if so how 'bout a little "put up your gray matter and fight"
207 discussion....any rational subject....but im here for content ,not
208 form................................................Aaron
209 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
210 ----------------------------------------aaron-
211  OK ... your pick or mine. I lean
212 toward comm. protocols, AI (as you
213 are aware), robotics in general ...
214 
215 what do you do besides the boards?
216 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
217         A.I.,please........i get enuf comm.prot and robotics at work...
218    besides the boards,you mean there is something other than the boards?
219 
220  wellll.....graphic controllers....sound synthesis....math theory....
221 ......c64 trend-setting.........sci-fi hobnobbing.....et cetra and misc..
222                                                                                                                                
223                                                          Aaron
224 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
225      how do i know you are P.A.,well if you can type it dont matter....
226 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
227 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
228 
229    Your on a c64 to, I've had mine about a month ... I really like the box. My background is pretty in the larger mainframe are
230 I've been interested in mics <> 8 months ( as far as internals go ).
231 
232 "A.I., please ...." sounds like a negative so I'll pass on that.
233 
234 Graphics contollers - good one
235 
236 Music synthesis - interesting
237 
238 Math theory - its been a long time since I've even been around anyone that knew that this one exists
239 
240 & c64 - do it 
241 
242                           PA
243 ---------------------------------------
244  oops....no,really,AI is good for me.....its that other stuff i get enuf of
245                                                     Aaron
246    what kind of mainframe?
247 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
248 please dont go past col 75,my term dosnt wrap...
249 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
250 -------------------------------
251 Aaron- IBM 370/4331 DOS/VSE
252 and I'm coming to the conclusion
253 that mainframes are a daed end.
254 
255                         Paul
256 --------------------------------
257 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
258    IBM 370,hmmm    i have no experience with that unit,
259       but something with a similar instruction set (down to the
260         SVC's)   interdata  (perkin elmer).......
261   did you accept AI?if so the first round is yours........
262 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
263  i am of the opposite opinon:mainframesa (actually minis) we be the
264 only survivors of the tecno-onslaught to come..
265    but im not willing to discusss the relative merits of main/mini/micros
266 to each  other ......bring on the AI!
267 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
268     does any one out there speak english?
269 break
270 -------------------------------------
271 Aaron-
272   Was out for more potables.
273 
274 AI ... well, I'm not sure that the
275 tacks we are taking in the research
276 that I've read about so for are go-
277 ing to lead us to the ability to deter-
278 mine if we are dealing with an alien
279 intelligence ... are tools present
280 to know it if we have it?
281  Will the uncertanty principle come
282 into play in the determination?
283 
284                          Paul
285 --------------------------------------
286 To: Art  From: Bob   I nead to talk to you about the Ham/Computer-show.
287 We nead to nail down what the computer people nead for space.
288 And any thing special they may nead . Please call ASAP.
289                                      Bob
290 **************************************************************
291 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
292 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
293    I'll try again around 10:30-11:00
294 
295                       Paul
296 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
297 yes,but (classical,eh?) is it necessary to define what is
298 artificial intel? If a system functions in such a way that
299 it preforms,why bother labeling it?As for the UnPrin,i doubt
300 that,strictly speaking,quantum mechanics will have much to do
301 with it;yet on a more friendly level,it is possible that in setting
302 the measurment criteria,we make it impossible to determine the 
303 "meta" criterion of being truly "inteligent".......Aaron
304 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
305 MODE
306          HELP
307 LIST
308 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
309   Oh mighty innkeeper, what has happened to the Backwater?
310 It seems to have been taken over by a group of people who have no more 
311 interest iin the poetry of life...
312    My absense has been longer than I had wished, but i sit in this 
313 unoccupied place, oorder one of your finer ales, and ask of the events of 
314 the past month. What has happened to my old friend, Lady d? I presume she 
315 has left on her journey long ago. And is Grey Ghost still a patron.
316    Ahh... I have finished my ale (I drink quickly), and am off to the 
317 night. I shall drop by for a longer visit later, perhaps?
318    Lest I forget, I must also ask of the whereabouts of the Amazon. I 
319 should like to hear her voice, also.
320            Akonis
321 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
322 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
323   Meta-criteria? Thats saying the 
324 "criteria-criteria" - this larger 
325 scope is some what baffling - please
326 elaborate ... also true in the strictist 
327 sense QM doesn't apply (without saying)
328 but the idea of a subjective observer
329 is still valid I think.
330                           Paul
331 ---------------------------------------
332 Also to Akonis:
333    Being a new user on this board I
334 personally have nothing the "poetry
335 of life" as a matter of fact its one
336 of my favorites ... I an trying to learn the tastes of the new group of
337 people I an dealing with ... please
338 return me something ....
339 
340                        Paul Abbus
341 ----------------------------------------
351 -> Only 2 lines left
353 *********************************************************
354 UP 15
355 ZAXXON -- I RECIEVED MY COPY AND IT WORKS AND LOOKS GREAT..
356 I HAVE HEARD THAT OTHER VERSIONS ARE NOT SO HOT.. THE ATARI FOR ONE.. I'M
357 USING A 64K TRS-80 COLOR AND NO COMPLANTS
358 
359 WHATS GOING ON HERE? THE ABOVE CREAP SURE SHOULD HAVE HIS TERMINAL 
360 TRASHED!!!!!! FOUL MOUTHS AND FOUL MINDS DON'T BELONG ANYWHERE THAT IS 
361 PUBLIC. 
362 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
363 
364 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
365    yes,as if we ever determin a system to be artif. intel.,we will
366 have deifned all the various things that we will use a criteria;does
367 it remember x,did it do the yyy,can it zzz,when we have finaly establish
368 ed what is inteligent behavior,we may have ruled out,by our own definiti
369 ons,what is truly (truly! maybe that strange concept of perfect,golden,actual,is
370 what im looking for instead of truly....some philosopher had something
371 to say about the scuzzy image of things we had here on earth,and their
372 reality,which was just a concept of that object perfected....well truly
373 will have to do)inteligent!
374 Aaron
375 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
376 ********************************************************"**j****j*****
377 
378 To:Bob         From: Art 
379 
380 Subject: Ham Fair
381 
382 Will have to be the evening of 07/31/83.  We will be gone for the
383 afternoon.  I will call you.  Hope you can survive?  ok ?
384 
385 ********************************************************************
386 ***************************************************************
387 To ART From: Bob 
388 Subject: Ham Fair
389                Ok Art I Will be looking for you then,I guess
390 that explains  why I haven't ben able to get a hold of you on
391 the radio or phone. I hope you and Rose stay cool. I was told
392 you went running in our minney Heat wave yesterday. I think 
393 you nead your head examined.
394                                Bob.
395 
396 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
397 -_ ATTENTION DRAGON LADY!!!!! Are you going to go to the     _-
398 -_ CBBS Pizza Party? If so, yipee!!! If not, go anyway. I'd  _-
399 -_ Like to meet the brain behind the words                   _-
400 -_                                                           _-
401 -_                       Tron                                _-
402 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
405 ----------
406 If you have a TRS-80, you will see weird things happen
407 -----------------uuuuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuguguhguhguhgubarf!
408 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
409   I'm not sure I understood all that, what I
410 think your getting to is that if a criterial for intelligence is 
411 determined, that the criteria may says
412 that as a specie we aren't. That seems 
413 a bit like "the tail wagging the dog"
414 to me.
415 
416                     Paul
417 ---------------------------------------
418 OK, I like the idea of AI. However, lets please stay away from the 
419 philosophical dead end loop of "it can't be defined because we don't 
420 now what it is!" We have come a long way since Turing posited his famous
421 "if we can't tell he difference, there is none" test. For one thing, we
422 now know a lot more about how we as humans think. The current definition
423 runs to something like "capable of appropriate action, in situations not
424 previously defined." In other words, it can figure out what needs to be
425 done, rather than your standard program that is totally prewritten. It
426 could be a learning or a computing machine. Our current knowlege of human
427 thought says we are not very good computers, instead we are very good
428 remembers. We have what is called content adressable memory, in that we
429 compare what we experience now with what we remember, and we remember 
430 things not by address like a computer, but by searching for similarities.
431 The Turing test isn't so much a test of the computer trying to pretend
432 it is a person, as a test of our own tendency to assume more than we see.
433 A computer that lied, and a person that lied could be hard to tell apart,
434 not because the computer was as good at lying as the person, but rather
435 that the person could seem to be a good lying computer.
436 Real AI can't be put on a micro, not because the micro isn't smart enough,
437 but because it can't access enough memory. Eliza seems pretty smart until
438 you ask it "who is the president of the USA?" The rules that the working
439 AI programs use aren't very dificult, they are only very numerous; humans
440 process these rules in parrallel (sp?) computers must do it serially, but
441 they are much faster at each step. Human sight, for example, involves
442 the eyes not only as detector of light, but also in complex comparisons
443 and data reduction (The eyes detect lines, edges, etc by themselves).
444 This is done by millions of cells, all working at the same time.
445 Computers, on the other hand, build an array and work through it one cell
446 at a time. This may be more accurate but even with the fastest computers
447 is MUCH slower that the human eye.
448 It seems very unlikely to me that we will see (at least in the near future)
449 a computer that seems to think like a person, however, we will soon see
450 computer programs that are inteligent in their own way. 
451 Now for the $64,000 question: when this computer program comes on line,
452 is it a "person", does it have rights, should it be able to vote, can it
453 be turned off (or it this murder?)? Which leads directly to the next part
454 of the question: who is a person, who should be able to vote, who or
455 what has rights? Geneticists beleive that a cross between a human and
456 a chimpanzee might survive, and perhaps even be fertile. Is this a person?
457 AI doesn't just refer to machines made of silicon and steel.
458 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\jul 31,,1450 pm\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
459     As evening fell, the traveller crested a hill and looked down into
460 a broad deep valley, with a river winding it's way to the sea in the
461 distance. Far below him he could see the lights of the Inn through the
462 trees. He paused to enjoy the scene, but soon pressed on toward the
463 beckoning light of the Inn.
464    Darkness comes quickly here in the forest, but the sound of merriment
465 lured him on, and soon he entered the Inn. He laid his pack in the
466 corner farthest from the fire, and spying an empty table nearer the
467 fire, sat down to rest and sup.
468    The innkeeper could see he came from far off by his clothes, so as
469 well as offering him food, also inquired as to his origins and
470 destination.
471    The traveler's tongue seemed to wind around itself as he spoke, but
472 all who could hear him understood. "I come from far away, and
473 travel to distant lands. No, I cannot tell you where I go, or
474 why. Though my mission is important, and I desire your hospitality, I
475 cannot speak of it. Now, though, may I sup? And, a tankard of your
476 famous ale!"
477    The Inn fell quiet for a moment, but the strange hint of
478 darkness soon blew away, and the sounds of laughter and arguement that
479 had prevailed before soon returned.
480    A feeling of inquiet filled the innkeeper when he looked at the
481 newcomer, but when he saw the cat accept the man, and a snack from his fingers,
482 then jump into his lap, he knew that no harm would befall them this night.
483 .................................................................
484 In at least some systems, the call forwarding doesn't 'take' unless the
485 number you forward to answers, it will be impossible to close the loop; 
486 to make it even more interesting, in some systems if A is forwarded to
487 B, and B forwards to C, the calls from A are not carried along, but in
488 other cases they are. In other words, don't expect a simple, specific
489 answer for a question with more than one answer.
490 {{{{{{{{{{{{{               }}}}}}}}}}}}}{{{{{{{{{{{{{           }}}}}}}}ring
491 I AM BACK...I HAVEN'T MISSED MUCH ON DRIVE B.
492 I HAVE SOME 68008'S AND A 68000 MICROPROCESSOR IN MY DRAWER NOT BEING USED.
493 I WOULD LIKE TO USE THEM. I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT TIMING SEQUENCES FOR
494 THE CONTROL LINES. DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHONG ABOUT THESE GREAT 16/32 BIT
495 PROCESSORS FROM MOTOROLA???
496 
497 THE SYSM.
498 
499 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
500 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
501   sysm:  there not so great........
502 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
503  not at all,what i am saying is that the crteria for "intelligence"
504    needs to be separated from the criteria for "functionality"....we
505      (and to you also BAD,(ps call me please))tend only to define 
506         systems as ai if they can answer questions or move blocks
507            around or that ilk..................Aaron
508 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
509 
510 ****  FOR SALE ::::
511 
512 NEW IN THE BOX WITH WARRANTY INTACT
513 USED TWICE BUT TOO SLOW FOR APPLICATION
514 
515 >>> HAYES STACK 300 SMARTMODEM <<<
516 ...$ 175.00... BRUCE TABOR
517 
518 
519 -----------------
520   re the AI comment of system off/murder: if that part of the operating system and memory that defined the personality
521 was ROM rather than RAM and retained its integrity without power, and RAM was used entirely for storage during logical
522 operations and reasoning, there would be no "murder".  The individual would return when power was restored.
523 -----------------
524 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
525   would it realy? what if I could push a "cold start" button on
526 you that would erase all the current CHEMICAL patterns in your
527 brain (RAM) yet would keep all the phisical connections (Rom),when
528 you "came back on line" you would certainly exist...but you would
529 be different had not we puched the button at all.....Aaron
530 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
531 "a" individual  would return...but would it be "the" individual ?
532 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
533 -----------------
534   You're begging the question.  The postulate is ALL memory of the computer will be stored as non-volitle ROM.  
535 
536 A cold start would return the individual to the point it was at when first powered up.  Humans have 2 forms of memory
537 too, long term and short term.  Consider the long term as ROM and the short term as RAM.  If the item is important enough
538 , the human mind will convert it to long term memory.  With the computer, one could consider this conversion as an
539 EPROM burner.  If important enough, it will be burned onto EPROM and stored permantly.  Thus, when the computer is turned
540 off, important events and items have been stored. 
541 Not only is the individual still the same, but it can learn and advance.
542 -----------------
543 THE MC68000 IS PROBABLY THE MOST ADVANCED SINGLE CHIP 16/32 BIT MICROPROCESSOR
544 AVAILABLE (ASIDE FROM BIT SLICE PROCESSORS).
545 
546 IT OFFERS:
547 
548  1. 16 MEGABYTE DIRECT ADDRESS RANGE
549  2. VERY EXTENSIVE COMMAND LIST (OVER
550     A THOUSAND DIFFERENT INSTRUCTIONS)
551  3. A WIDE RANGE OF SUPPORT CHIPS (ALL
552     VERY HIGH SPEED ADVANCED LSI)
554  4. VERY HIGH SPEED (32 BIT INTERNAL
555     ARCITECTURE AT 8 MHZ IS DAMN FAST!)
556  5. POWER APPROACHING THAT OF A MAIN
557     FRAME COMPUTER.
558 
559 
560 SO DON'T TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T SO GREAT!!! IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION!
561 
562 THE SYSM.
563 
564 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
565 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
566  rom and ram are not good representation of short and long
567 term memory...it is infinitly more complex...yet not important here...
568  in fact,it isn't the degree of "importance" that determines whether
569 the short to long term conversion takes place....
570    the point about "murder" is trivial...i will not discuss it further,
571 except that in the future we may have laws preventing us from destroying
572 AI systems,not on moral grounds,but that the information and structure
573 they have achieved would be irreplaceable....
574 lead on.....
575 <><><><><><>
576 sysm....
577  not meaning to say you know not of which you speak,but
578 have you ever participated in the design of anything
579 68000 based?
580                                Aaron
581 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
582 is anyone out there intrested in hp-3000s?
583  or corvi? corvus(us?) (apple/pet/???)
584 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
585 
586 
587 Wow! such verbousity! You guys have been active!
588 one thing to consider, have you considered the
589 difference between fixed intellegence as represented
590 by computers, calculators, and books verses mutable intelegence
591 as represented by us humans?
592 **** CISTOP MIKEY (OR IS IT MEMOREX?) **** 1 AUG 83 **********
593 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
594  MIKEY MY CRT SHATTERED!
595 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
596 ---------------------------------------
597 Aaron: Boy its been hard to get in to the Backwater!
598   There seem to be about four different
599 discussions going one here, so I'll try to pick the one that seemed closest from
600 last time.
601    The point was made that the reason the Machine rather then the Program could not
602 be considered intelligent was because
603 of serial processing ...
604 well if thats the case then the 5th generation project should definitly get
605 use closer to an machine based AI.
606    As far as "machine death" is concerned, my opinion is that if you have a process
607 by which ALL the memory of the machine could be stored, you couldn't kill it ...
608 as a matter of fact isn't that one of the aurguments for the research into AI, having an 'eternal intell.'?
609 
610                         Paul
611 ----------------------------------------
612 ARTIFICIAL INTELLEGENCE!!  who needs it.....i shure doughn't
613 and I kno ewe doughn't ether...
614 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
615  yes,i agree about the "death"
616  
617  I dont think that AI is limited to non serial processing machines,
618 if we can do it on a conc. machine,we can do it on a serial.
619 
620  what point were you making about the unc prin?
621 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aa,<><>><
622 The Turing test was propsed to get around the problem of
623 defing "intelligence". However it also has the advantage of not
624 necessarily being as anthropocentric as the ideas suggested
625 above.
626 A computer doesn't have to "think" the same way we do
627 to be intelligent does it? I suspect that there may be more 
628 than one kind of "intelligence". To quote the late John W.
629 Campbell: show me something that thinks AS WELL AS a man, but not LIKE a man! ......Leonard

