LIST
FILE ON
MARGIN IS 80 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED 22 FEB 84 *******************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
6                     PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is
10 privatly owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which
11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be
12 periodically purged of messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
13 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the
14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the
15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace
16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
17 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
18 ************************************************************
19 
20 Gary:	It sounds like you have a rather common misconception regarding
21 "non-profit" organizations. They CAN make money, they just can't distribute it
22 as profits to stockholders/owners/etc. 	
23 	I wasn't aware of this myself, until I became treasurer of a local branch of a 
24 non-profit group. 
25 
26 	Some people have been reading things into my msgs regarding religion.
27 I suggest they re-read the msgs, this time WITHOUT making any assumptions about
28 what I "mean" by what I wrote.
29 	I did NOT say that I don't believe in God, neither did I say that I
30 do believe. I said I have doubts about organized religion. No more, no less.
31 
32 Piper:	I agree that some on this system do seem to display the attitude that
33 you speak of, but very few have said so in as many words. As you can see from my
34 above comments, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. I, myself, feel
35 that all religions deserve equal respect. I do alter this "base level" based on 
36 12
38 ______________________________________Leonard___________________________________
39 	"Ah, Piper, after that song I would dearly love to sing 'Men of Harlech'. 
40 I must apologize though, as I seem to have forgotten a few lines. Thusly, I
41 shall instead sing an SCA song derived from it"
42 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
43 	Men of Reisling (words: Deirdre Muldomhnaigh, tune: Men of Harlech)
44 Men of Reisling, stop your dreaming,
45 Can't you hear the bastards scheming
46 Overthrow of all of Reisling
47 At your very door?
48 
49 Men of Reisling, none to steady,
50 On your feet and the ready;
51 Even though it has been said ye
52 Cannot find the floor.
53 
54 Raise your glass and quaff it;
55 Your nightshirt, you must doff it;
56 Leave your thoughts beside her cot,
57 But get your body off it!
58 
59 Men of Reisling, arm for battle,
60 They are stealing all your cattle,
61 And your e'en more precious chattel:
62 Your wenches and your beer!
63 
64 Stagger on the fleeing foemen,
65 Drunken knights and drunken yeomen,
66 And some very drunken bowmen
67 Tangled up in twine.
68 
69 We'll pursue the foe and harry
70 Any who should chance to tarry;
71 Another day, they'll be more wary
72 Who they rob of wine!
73 
74 Reislings, do your duty;
75 They're fleeing with their booty!
76 Your wives you'll miss, but worse than this,
77 Of wine the swine would loot ye!
78 
79 Let them have the keeps and towers;
80 We'll protect the casks and bowers--
81 Castles fall, but nothing sours
82 Loving and good wine!
83 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
84   
85 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  + - / * mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
86   
87   Special Note to The Mad Actor: I do sincerely regret the fact
88     that my chosen designation causes the screen erase. It would
89     seem to me that terminal programs should not act on valid
90     ASCII characters in some special way. I changed the heading
91     for this note to be sure you can read it.
92   
93     Concerning your request for information on the floating
94     hyper-space channel, I hardly ever whisper in the pines
95     but perhaps we can devise some other means of exchange.
96     
97 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm The Mesolithic Mathematician mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
98   
99 ***********************************************************
100 
101 Leonard: Being in social services, a former trustee of a 
102 church, and responsible for a tax exempt fund for the Mental 
103 Health Association I know more about non-profits than you 
104 appear to assume.
105 
106 A lunar mining station would require a tremendous amount of 
107 start up capital. The General might be right. Perhaps the 
108 only way to get started would be through a non-profit, which, 
109 in practical terms, means depending on the government.
110 
111 The problem with getting all your support from one source is 
112 that you lose the power to direct the project in the way you 
113 envision. The General is a man of vision. I fear the 
114 government would be less than sympathetic to his idealism.
115 
116 Finding a way to include private enterprise would offer a 
117 balance. If the General could play the government off against 
118 private enterprise he could make himself a powerbroker. This 
119 would seem the most practical way to create his project as 
120 near to his vision as possible.
121 
122 The government is far to cynical to go for a project run by 
123 volunteers. Even John Kennedy, who created the Peace Corps. 
124 and VISTA, did it to get the hippies out of the hair of 
125 government.
126 
127 Perhaps if he included a killer lazer gun or atomic missiles 
128 capable of destroying cities he might have better luck with 
129 funding.
130 
131 Contremon Valerius: Very sad to hear you're leaving. You will 
132 be missed.
133 
134 General Maciabo: Good luck with your plans. Perhaps someday 
135 idealism will triumph...even though it seldom has in the past 
137 
138                          Gary
139 
140 ***************************************************************
141  
142 Fair Patrons,
143    I have been mulling over a rather unique phenomenon of the current culture.
144 Single parentage by design. 
145 Unique in the sense that single women voluntarily decide to have children 
146 without benifit ( or hindrance as the case may be ) of family ( meaning stable
147 father figure etc. ) I am by no means decided on the matter -- just concerned 
148 over the welfare and future dispostition of the children involved.
149     Does not having a tangable quantifiable father by maternal design as opposed
150 to being an orphan have any detrimental effects ?
151     Does this signal a new order of family (?) life ? 
152     In terms of social acceptance ( peer groups etc. ) what will be the effect ?
153  
154    Your comments please !
155  
156 :::::::::::Alex:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
157 alex
158 where is it established that there must be a father to raise the child?  surely there are enough father figures in the world fo
159 surely there are enough father figures  for the child to emulate.
161 break
162 
163 
164 To the above:(is your name "Break"?)
165 There are certainly father-figures aplenty, but many psychologists feel that for proper development (emotional andsocial)
166 to occur, parents of both sexes should be present, especially during the first 4-6 years. This of course opens up the can 
167 of worms "what is proper development", which I choose not to delve into at this time.
168 MesoMath: Surely you aren't suggesting the Postal (dis)Service! How Mesolithic can you get?
169                   && The Mad Actor &&
170 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
171 DAVER, MACAIBO, CONTREMON........WHAT CAN I SAY?........YOUR GREAT
172 WRITING STYLE WILL BE SORELY MISSED! I WOULD IMAGINE THO, THE BBS IN
173 CALIFORNIA HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S IN STORE FOR THEM.......BUT WE DO!
174 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
175 ALEX: I, TOO FEEL CONCERN FOR THIS GROWING PHENOMENEN. I WAS FROM A 
176 SINGLE PARENT FAMILY TO SOME EXTENT, THO I DID HAVE A STRONG MALE FI-
177 GURE IN MY LIFE DURING MY SO CALLED FORMATIVE YEARS. GRADE SCHOOL AGE...
178 I DO BELIEVE THAT IT IS QUITE IMPORTANT TO HAVE BOTH INFLUENCES WHILE
179 A CHILD IS YOUNG, BUT IF THE TWO PARTIES INVOLVED HATE EACH OTHER,
180 THE LACK OF ONE OR THE OTHER IS LESS DETRIMENTAL. IT WAS QUITE A RE-
181 LIEF ON ALL WHEN MY PARENTS DIVORCED, AND I BECAME A MUCH MORE STABLE
182 CHILD WHEN THE HATEFUL ATMOSPHERE WAS REMOVED. BUT EVERYONES CIRCUM-
183 STANCES ARE DIFFERENT. 
184 I ALSO HAVE 3 STEP SISTERS THAT WERE TOTALLY RAISED BY ONLY A MOTHER.
185 THEY ARE SO NORMAL IT'S UNBELIEVABLE! MY FATHER JUST RECENTLY MARRIED
186 THEIR MOTHER. 
187 I ALSO HAVE SOME VERY CLOSE FRIENDS THAT WERE RAISED ONLY BY THEIR
188 FATHER, AND THEY TOO ARE FINE. I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH OF A 
189 PARENT THE PERSON INVOLVED IS, AND HOW CLOSE OF A RELATIONSHIP CAN
190 BE MAINTAINED BETWEEN ADULT AND CHILD.
191 L
192 *****************************************************************
193 TMA: I AGREE WITH YOUR CONCERN ABOUT NOT WANTING TO INFRINGE UPON 
194 THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OF OTHERS, BUT VANDLISM IS NOT AN EXERCISE 
195 IN FREE SPEECH, IT IS INSTEAD AN INFRINGMENT OF THE RIGHTS UPON 
196 THOSE WHO IT IS DONE. THIS EVEN INCLUDES LIBAL (RIGHTFULLY SO) AS 
197 IT IS AN ATTEMPT TO HURT ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL VERBALY.  VANDLISM IS 
198 DESTRUCTION OF ANOTHERS PROPERTY, AGAIN AN INFRINGMENT UPON 
199 ANOTHER (OR IN THE CASE OF PUBLIC PROPERTY, ALL OF US).  ONE OF 
200 THE NICE THINGS ABOUT BWMS BEING SO OPEN, IS NOT ONLY THAT ANYONE 
201 CAN SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT, BUT ALSO IT IS SELF POLICING. I HAVE 
202 VERY SELDOM ENCOUNTERED POLICING EFFORTS WHICH WERE TOO EXTREME. 
203 WHILE THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF VANDLISM, IT IS 
204 SOMETHING THAT ONE LEARNS TO LIVE WITH. HOWEVER, REPAIRS SHOULD 
205 BE EFFECTED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER SUCH, OR IT GIVES THE 
206 INDICATION TO OTHERS THAT VANDLISM IS OK. WHICH IN MY OPION IT IS 
207 NOT! SO ANYWAY, YES THIS SYSTEM IS OPEN TO ALL TO USE IT AS THEY 
208 WISH, IT IS NOT HOWEVER ACCEPTED THAT OTHERS WORKS (INCLUDING 
209 MINE) BE VANDLIZED. THAT IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH BASIC 
210 FREEDOMS, AND NOT CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE HERE EITHER. THERE IS ONE 
211 AREA WHERE I DO STRAY FROM THE STRICTEST SENSE OF THE FREE SPEECH 
212 CONCEPT, AND THAT IS FOUL LANGUAGE. I DO NOT APROVE OF IT ON THIS 
213 SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, AND MANY YOUNGER 
214 INDIVIDUALS DO LOG ON TO THE SYSTEM. WHILE I COULD CARE LESS 
215 ABOUT THE LANGUAGE OTHERS USE, I DO CONSIDER IT IMPROPER TO 
216 EXHIBIT SUCH DISREGARD FOR ITS USE TO YOUNG IMPRESSIONABLE MINDS 
217 POSSIBLY GIVING THEM THE IDEA THAT IT IS OK TO TALK THAT WAY. 
218 UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THEY ARE MATURE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUE 
219 CONTENT OF WHAT IS SAID, I FEEL THAT SOME DEGREE OF RESTRAINT 
220 SHOULD BE OBSERVED. WHILE I DO FEEL THAT RESTRICTING THE LANGUAGE 
221 IN THIS FORM IS APPROACHING ON THE EDGES OF RESTRICTION OF THE 
222 FREEDOM OF SPEECH, AND IN FACT IF TOO MUCH EXTREMISM IS TAKEN IN 
223 THAT REGARD IT DOES INDEED FALL IN THAT CATAGORY IN MY OPINION, 
224 YET THERE IS THE WIDER PICTURE OF CONSIDERING INFRINGMENT UPON 
225 THE CHILDS RIGHTS GIVING FALSE VALUES, THUS DISRUPTING THEIR 
226 LIVES IN AN INDIRECT WAY. BASICLY MY FEELINGS IN THIS REGARD IS 
227 IF IT REQUIRES SOME DEGREE OF EFFORT WHICH IS NOMINALLY 
228 PREVENTIVE TOWARDS ALLOWING A CHILD TO GAIN ACCESS TO 
229 DISREPUTABLE MATERIAL (WE WON'T GET INTO WHAT DISREPUTABLE IS AT 
230 THIS TIME) THEN IT IS IN AN ACCEPTABLE RESTRICTED FORM. IF 
231 HOWEVER IT IS FREELY AVAILABLE FOR EASY ACCESS WITH NO REGARD FOR 
232 WHO MIGHT VIEW IT, THEN I FEEL THAT IT IS AN INFRINGMENT, AND  
233 SOMTHING SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT. I REALIZE THAT THIS IS A TOUCHY 
234 AREA, AND A REAL PROBLEM IS DEFINING WHAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND 
235 WHAT IS, BUT I DO FEEL THAT IT IS THE PROPER THING. I ALSO 
236 BELEIVE THAT THESE SORTS OF CONCEPTS REQUIRE CONTINUAL REVAMPIMG 
237 AS THE VALUES OF SOCIETY CHANGE. THE TRUE MEANING THAT IS 
238 IMPARTED UPON A WORD OR ACTION CHANGES WITH TIME, AND CAN BECOME 
239 NASTY OR GOOD DEPENDING ON THE CURRENT VALUES.
240 ****** ENOUGH ALREADY! ******** CISTOP MIKEY *******************
241 P.S. PAM, I HOPE YOU INACTIVITY IS ONLY DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO 
242 GET ON EASILY (THOUGH I HOPE EVEN THAT ISN'T TOO MUCH A PROBLEM 
243 FOR YOU) AND NOT BECAUSE YOU'VE SOURED ON BWMS.  YOUR INPUT HAS 
244 ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BESIDES, I LIKE IT!
245 ****************************************************************
246 ALEX I DON'T FIND SINGLE WOMEN HAVING CHILDREN WITHOUT BEING MARRIED
247 A PROBLEM. HOWEVER I DO KNOW OF ONE WOMAN WHO DID THIS WHILE ON WELFARE
248 AND WITH EVERY INTENTION OF REMAINING ON WELFARE. THIS I FIND REPUGNENT
249 PERHAPS BECAUSE INDIRECTLY I WIND UP PAYING FOR THE SUPPORT OF HER CHILD.
250       
251 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% PEEPER %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
252 DEAR NANCY:
253 AFTER ONE DAY OF SEEING YOUR ARTICLES, I AM ALREADY A FAN 
254 I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU, PERHAPS HAVE A GOOD ARGUMENT SOMETIME

255 - CRUD
256 
257 EXIT
258 && && &&
259 Cistop Mikey:
260 Much of my previous statement was due to my lack of understanding about
261 your definitions of "open". Having heard your desires in a bit more detail,
262 I will return to my practice of throwing out the "garbage" I find on the
263 board. I myself agree with the attitudes you expressed above, but in my
264 lack of such detailed knowledge I gave the most liberal interpretation I  
265 could to your sign-on words, feeling that it was better to err in the 
266 direction of leniency, and knowing that if my choice was wrong I would
267 find out about it (as I have). If I'd simply wiped the material without 
268 comment, I'd have never known for sure.
269 To All Users:
270  This Is Your Board, Too. Help Keep It Clean.
271            The Janitor (also known as...)
272                && The Mad Actor &&
273 P.S.-- General, Contremon V.,et al,
274 I'll miss you too. I was hoping to get you involved in the tale now 
275 unfolding in the Inn. Enjoy your new home, & call as often as you can!
276 Vale,
277                && TMA &&
278 CONCERNING THE ON GOING CONVERSATION ABOUT RELIGION;
279 THERE ARE MANY POINTS I COULD TOUCH ON HERE BUT BECAUSE OF LACK OF TIME
280 I WILL JUST HIT A FEW OF THEM. 
281       THERE IS NO ONE 'TRUE' RELIGION NOR IS THERE ONE 'TRUE' GOD.
282       EVEN IF ALL PEOPLE WERE TO CALL THEIR GOD BY THE SAME NAME, EACH
283 PERSON WOULD HAVE HIS OR HER OWN CONCEPTION OF WHAT THEIR GOD WAS LIKE;
284 FATHERLIKE
285 FORGIVING
286 STERN
287 UNFORGIVING
288 NO TWO PEOPLE CAN EVEN TOTALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM
289 LET ALONE A CONCEPT!
290 CHRIST HIMSELF SAID "IN MY FATHERS MANSION ARE MANY ROOMS". MEANING, OF 
291 COURSE THAT ALL WHO GAIN THE SANCTUARY OF HEAVEN NEED NOT HAVE COME BY 
292 THE SAME PATH.
293        GOD DOES NOT WANT YOU LTO SUFFER PAIN. THAT IS AN INEFITABLE 
294 CONSEQUENCE OF HUMANESS, OF BEING A THINKING, FEELING 'CHOOSING' BEING.
295 WE ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE OUR WAYS; TO, IF WE WISH DISOBEY THE
296 DESIRES AND COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.
297        AND THE LAST COMMANDMENT - THE ONE THAT TAKES PRECEDENT OVER ALL
298 OTHERS IS - LOVE ONE ANOTHER!!!!
299        THERE IS BALANCE IN NATURE
300 JOY - SORROW
301 BIRTH - DEATH
302 GOOD - EVIL
303       TO TRY TO, OR WISH TO HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER IS TO DENY THE
304 FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF REALITY.
305       ENOUGH FOR NOW
306 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX SNK XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
307                      (THE SNOT NOSED KID)
308 ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
309 The piper moved off in the direction of the promised drink.  On the way 
310 toward the table where a man dressed in gray and a young lady sat, he hesitatied
311 for a moment:
312   "A moment, sir, I should reply to the young lady speaking on religion --
313 
314 Deborah -- Forgive me for nearly forgetting to reply, but one thing occurs.
315 In my question that I asked before, perhaps I should ask you specifically --
316 what if the bible is *not* divinely inspired, and merely the transcription
317 of the records of a primitive nomad tribe (the old testament) and the 
318 interpretations of the teachings of a slightly unbalanced jewish mystic set
319 down by his self-serving followers?  Mind you, I do not say this is the case,
320 merely -- what then?  
321 Can you support Christianity without reference to the bible, or is Christianity
322 completely dependent on that single book?"
323 
324 With a smile and a bow, the piper turned away and stepped close to his own 
325 table and spoke to the bard.
326 "This gentleman has offered a drink, and I feel that adventure may be in the
327 offing.  Should the opportunity arise, are you game?"
328 
329 Not waiting for an answer, the piper moved to the table and sank down before e
330 waiting figures.
331 ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
332 
333 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
334 MIKEY: WELL PUT...I'M TOTALLY IN AGREEMENT.
335 
336 PAM: IT IS TRUE YOUR INPUT IS MISSED....I OFTEN FIND MYSELF WONDERING
337 WHERE YOU ARE.
338 PIPER: EVEN WITHOUT THE BIBLE, I FEEL THAT A BELIEF IN A CREATOR IS
339 QUITE LOGICAL. THE BENEFIT WITH THE BIBLE IS THAT WE CAN GET SOME
340 VIEW OF THE WAY GOD HAS DEALT WITH HUMANS, AND  A CONCEPT OF HIS
341 LIKES AND DISLIKES. IT'S INTERESTING THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS VIEWED
342 AS WRONG IN THE BIBLE, CAUSES PAIN TO HUMANS. SO LIVING BY IT'S
343 STANDARDS CAN BE A REAL BENEFIT.
344 THE BAD THING ABOUT THE BIBLE, IS WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH IT. THEY
345 TWIST IT THAT WAY AND THIS, AND FIT IN THIS EXPLANATION AND THAT ,
346 TO TRY AND FIT THEIR OWN OPINIONS IN. WHEN ACTUALLY IT WAS MEANT
347 TO BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE.
348 SNOT NOSE: INDEED THERE IS TRUTH IN REALITY. GRAVITY IS GRAVITY.
349 BLUE IS BLUE, ETC. THER MAY BE MANY OPINIONS.....BUT THERE IS
350 ONLY ONE TRUTH. I'M NOT CLAIMING I KNOW IT ALL....BUT SOMEWHERE
351 SOMETIME, SOMEWAY...THERE MUST BE. NATURE IS VERY DEFINATE,
352 GOVERNED BY EXTREMELY DEFINATE LAWS.
353 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
354 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRX
355 
356      OK, LET'S ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT THAT GOD DOES 
357 EXIST AND THAT HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE. 
358 
359      SO WHAT DID HE CREATE IT FROM?
360 
361      AND THE REAL KICKER, WHO CREATED GOD?
362 
363 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRRXRXRXRXRX
364 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
365 Rex,
366    God is not material. When he created this univerese, he didn't have
367 to worry about the laws of physics. He created those later on. No one 
368 created God. He's existed forever. You may find this hard to believe,
369 but time is part of this unverese.
370            Dr. Buck
371 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
372 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
373 Rex, I agree with you totally.  I saw an
374 episode of COSMOS where
375 Carl Sagan asked the same questions.
376 It kind of makes you wonder
377 how you make something from nothing.
378 
379 FOTI
380 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
381 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRX
382 
383      WHO SAYS SOMETHING MUST BE MATERIAL TO BE 
384 CREATED? LIGHT IS CERTAINLY NOT MATERIAL, YET IT CAN 
385 BE CREATED BY A NUMBER OF MEANS.
386 
387      ALSO, THE ARGUMENT THAT GOD ALWAYS HAS EXISTED 
388 IS A VERY FLIMSY ARGUMENT, BY THAT SAME ARGUMENT I 
389 COULD SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE ALWAYS HAS EXISTED TOO, 
390 THUS NOT NEEDING A GOD TO CREATE IT. I COULD STILL 
391 FIT THIS INTO THE BIG BANG CONCEPT THAT SCIENTISTS 
392 LIKE TO USE FOR THE UNIVERSE AND THE SCIENTIFICLY 
393 ORIENTED RELIGIOUS TYPES LIKE TO USE AS SUPPORTING 
394 EVIDENCE BY SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT THE UNIVERSE 
395 COULD COLAPSE ON ITSELF AND BLOW OUT AGAIN FOREVER. 
396 
397      I BRING UP THE POINT OF CREATION OF GOD, BECAUSE 
398 IF SOMEONE OR THING OR WHATEVER DID CREATE THIS WHOLE 
399 MESS WETHER IT BE ONE SECOND AGO, OR UMTEEN MILLION 
400 ZILLION YEARS AGO, THE QUESTION MUST BE ASKED WHO 
401 CREATED THE CREATOR? AND OF COURSE THAT BEGETS THE 
402 QUESTION OF WHO CREATED THE CREATOR WHO CREATED THE 
403 CREATOR? AD INFINITUM.........
404 
405      NOR CAN I ACCEPT THE CONCEPT THAT SOMETHING CAN 
406 BE CREATED FROM NOTHING. THERE HAS TO BE SOME 
407 UNDERLAYING BASIS FOR THE EXISTANCE TO OCCUR. THE ONE 
408 CONCEPT I HAVE HEARD IN THAT REGARD THAT I CAN FIND 
409 ACCEPTABLE IS THAT THE UNIVERSE 'IS' GOD. WHILE IT 
410 DOES NOT ANSWER THE OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO CREATED 
411 GOD ECT., IT AT LEAST PROVIDES A BASIS FROM WHICH THE 
412 UNIVERSE COULD BE MADE ASSUMING WE ALLOW THE CONCEPT 
413 THAT THIS GOD CREATED IT.  
414 
415 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRRXRXRXRXRX
416   																								
417 							
418 							
419   GRETINS TO THE PEOPLE OF THE IN N 
420  LET ME INTRODUCE MY SELF I AN MA YUAN A SIMPLE
421 SOLE AND A MILLITANT PASIFASS (I ALSO KAN'T SPELL)
422 AS TO THE SUBJECT OF RELIGON AND BEING RELIGUS
423 IS IT GOOD OR BAD MIGHT IT BE WISE TO LOOKAT
424 WHAT THE BOY SCOUTS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT THAY
425 SAY TO BE REVERENT NOT RELIGOUS I BELIVE THIS
426 MEANS TO RESPECT OUTHERS RELIGONS AND NOT ATTACK THEM
427   I FELL THAT I CAN SPEEK WITH SOME ATHORDY ON THIS DUE
428 TO THE FACT THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SCOUTS 
429 FOR TEN YERS.
430 
431 
432   			FATHFULY YOURS
433 			MA YAUN
434 																						
435 						
436 PS IN RESPONC TO NANCY IN AND AN EARLER ARGUMENT 
437 I AGGRE WITH YOU AND WISH TO EXPRES MY VEUE THAT
438 SEX SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A LEVER ON A DIFFRENT 
439 ENETY.						
440 							
441 						
442 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%     ARE THERE ANY DEIST'S OUT 
443 HERE?   ALSO, AS A NEWCOMER TO THESE 
444 DISCUSSIONS, ONE QUESTION COMES TO 
445 MIND.  WHAT OR WHERE IS TH MUCH
446 REFERRED TO "INN"?
447                                                      ORNAC
448 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
475 Wanted musicians:Forming 50's 60's show band. experiance a must! contact JR 
476 at 667-xxxx. thanks
477 ---------------------------------------
478 GEM OF THE MOUNTAINS      by Paul Aurandt
479 	It was the prospect of gold which brought people into the territory in the first place.  Those who came decided to stay.
480 	By February of 1859, an act had been introduced in Congress which would make that chunk of land spanning the Rockies an 
481 official U.S. territory.  The name, "Osage Territory" was proposed.  Yet there was too much congressional foot-dragging to 
482 suit the enthusiastic inhabitants of the area.  And so on June 6 a constitutional convention assembled, and the name 
483 "Jefferson Territory" was adopted.  Then the election of a delegate to Congress was scheduled.
484 	Had duly elected delegate B. D. Williams simply gone to Washington, D.C., and gained the acceptance of Jefferson Territory 
485 as an official territory of the United States, the eventual state would have been called Jefferson.  Of course, there is no 
486 such state, and here's why.
487 	Among the unsuccessful candidates for territorial delegate was a fellow namd George M. Willing.  He decided to go to 
488 Washington anyway, and he met delegate Williams there.  He told delegate Williams that Congress would be unlikely to buy the
489 name Jefferson for the new territory, and that he, George Willing, had a better name: Idaho.  It was an Indian word, George 
490 said.  It meant "Gem of the mountains."
491 	Delegate Williams said that Idaho was a very nice name indeed, but that the territorial inhabitants had already chosen
492 "Jefferson," and "Jefferson" they would get.
493 	Shortly thereafter, both House and Senate committees determined that to start a trend of naming territories after presidents
494 would not be a good idea, and that President Washington's should remain a singular honor.
495 	So what about the name Idaho, George Willing once more asked?  Delegate Williams replied that if "Jefferson" was out of the
496 question, a number of names should be pondered and carefully evaluated.
497 	Names proposed to the Senate committee included "Tampa" and "Nemara" and "Weapollao" and "Arapahoe" and even "San Juan."  The
498 House committee seemed particularly fond of "Tahosa," an Indian word meaning "dwellers on the mountaintops."
499 	The names of Columbus, Franklin, and Lafayette were also considered for the new territory.  But the one name, apparently
500 irresistible to all, was George Willing's original name: Idaho.  "Gem of the mountains."  What could be more appropriate?
501 But this is THE REST OF THE STORY.
502 	Delegate B. D. Williams, still suspicious of the territorial tag-along George Willing, decided to research the origin of the
503 Indian word "Idaho."  He discovered not only that Idaho did NOT mean "Gem of the mountains, but that Idaho had no meaning at 
504 all.
505 	There was no such word, in ANY language, as "Idaho"!
506 	Suddenly realizing that the Idaho proposal had been George Willing's practical joke from the start, delegate Williams 
507 hurried back to the Hill with this warning: The name Idaho was a fake.  It meant nothing, least of all "gem of the mountains."
508 That the name of a territory and ultimately a state should be a product of a practical joker's imagination was unthinkable.
509 Therefore, the new territory must receive another name.  A LEGITIMATE name.
510 	And it did.
511 	The name "Idaho" was abandoned.
512 	And on February 8, 1861, COLORADO was born.
513 
514 ------------------------------------------------------ P. V. Jeltz -----------
515 Ahhah! At last we get back to the topic I proposed so long ago! (Which topic?)
516 Do we really exist at all? And does that question have any meaning? Don't give me Decarte's cop-out "I think therefore I
517 am," because what you really are saying is that you THINK you think, which doesn't prove a thing!
518 If the universe is/was a creation of God, made from nothing, then perhaps the closest we can come to a true conception o
519 of the nature of reality is that of a dream in the mind of God, who being by definition a limitless being would have a 
520 limitless capacity for dream. This would encompass not only our own vast universe, but also infinite other universes, all
521 equally complex. This is, of course, unprovable by standard scientific means, leaving the question open only to examination
522 by non-standard means. Could Gnostic Christians be right in their assumption that the nature of reality is different for
523 each individual, and is open only to experience, not quantitative analysis? If this is so it would help explain  such
524 things as the uncertainty principle, and explain why things like yoga and shamanism (and bumblebees) that shouldn't 
525 work, do.
526 Keep those cards & letters coming!
527                 && The Mad Actor &&
528 ================================================================================ SCENARIO:
529 
530 LOCATION: ON DECK OF AN ENGLISH BATTLESHIP IN THE FRENCH-ENGLISH WAR
531 
532 SITUATION: FIRST MATE IS DISCUSSIN LOCAL SNAIL RACING WITH THE CAPTIAN 
533 
534 FADE IN...........
535 
536 LOOKOUT SHOUTS FROM ABOVE: "FOUR BRESLY FRENCH SCHOONERS OFF THE PORT BOW !"
537 1ST MATE:YOUR ORDERS SIR?
538 
CAP: GO INTO MY CABIN AND GET ME MY GREAT OVERCOAT , THE ONE MADE OF RED VELOUR.
539 1ST MATE: BUT CAPTAIN, WON'T THIS GARMENT BE A BURDEN TO YOU WHEN WE ARE IN BATTLE ?  
540 CAP: YES, BUT I AM WEARING IT FOR REASONS OF MORAL,I AM THINKING OF THE MEN
541 1ST MATE: MORALE? HOW? EXPLAIN YOURSELF PLEASE?
542 CAP: IN BATTLE, IF I AM HIT AND THE MEN SEE IT, THEIR FIGHTING EFFECTIVENESS WILL BE GREATLY LESSENED IF THEY SEE THEIR 
543 LEADER IS WOUNDED. IF I WEAR A RED COAT, THE BLOOD WILL NOT BE NOTICED.
544 1ST MATE: I UNDERSTAND,  A BRILLIANT STROKE OF POLITIC, SIR.
545 
546 LOOKOUT SHOUTS FROM ABOVE: "FORTY-FOUR BRESLY FRENCH SCHOONERS OFF THE PORT BOW !!"
547 
548 CAP : MATE, WOULD YOU BE SO KIND AS TO GO INTO MY CABIN AND GET ME MY 
549 BROWN CORDUROY TROUSERS.
550 
551                                                   -CRUD
552 
553 ================================================================================
554 Ornac: you're in the Inn now. It seems to exist everywhere/when, but its primary level of existence is in a lan
555 called Innisfall. The entrance to the Inn in our plane of reality is somewhere inside of a computer in the Johnson
556 Creek area of Portland.
557 May I buy you a drink?--Inkeeper! Ales for the Piper and Ornac here, and one for the Bard over there, if he'll
558 have it. Gentlemen, Lynn here has a proposition which I think you might find interesting, if you've the stomach for
559 a little risk...
560                   && The Mad Actor &&
561 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
562      It seems logical to me that something could exist forever. Time 
563 is part of this universe. A divine being would obviously be above that
564 rule. This universe could not exist forever without a divine being. By
565 the law of entropy, the energy would eventually. evenly distribute 
566 itself unless there was outside energy. So no matter which way you 
567 look at it, it falls back on God.
568      As for if I exist. I think I'll never know that. In order to keep
569 my sanity, I'll assume I exist. This arrangement seems to work out 
570 great.
571               Dr. Buck
572 P.S. Light is a form of matter.
573 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
574 I think you would get a argument out of a number of
575 scientists about light being matter. Also, there are
576 a multitude of non-material forces out there that
577 can either be created, or that exist as a result of
578 something else being created. Three very common and
579 well known ones are electricity, magnatisism, and
580 gravity. Non of these are material, we know they
581 exist, and in the case of two of them we can create
582 them at will. As for the universe comming to a stop
583 via the entrophy concept, that is still far from 
584 an only accepted end of the universe, with the right
585 amount of mass the universe can recyle itsef forever.
586 It simply colapses back in on itself and goes thru the 
587 big bang again forever.
588 As far as god is concerned, you seem to be using
589 a self feeding proof there. Why does God have to
590 be kicking around forever? Why couldn't he himself (or
591 herself) have been created? I see no reason why this
592 can't be so. Being material or not has nothing to do 
593 with hanging around forever. It is quite feasible for
594 both to have that capability.
595 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR
596 WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME SOME INPUT ON THE REALITY OF NOTHINGNESS?
597                                     YST-CRUD
598 
599 This discussion of religion is pointless and tends to be recursive in all 
600 respects. All that needs to be said is that people thrive best in their own
601 environ and to question that environ is incorrect ,this statement pertains
602 to all cases ie: both sides whomever they may be.
603   If one chooses to entertain a viewpoint that viewpoint is unique and
604 founded of absolute creativity. To venture to alter this viewpoint 
605 through means of direct criticism is a desecration of human rights of 
606 theory. One may express personal opinions on what they view so long as 
607 these opinions do not wantonly excoriate the beliefs of others.
608                            
609 >> A HYPOCRITE WHO TALKS TOO MUCH
610
611 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
612
613      The "human rights of theory"?  While everyone certainly has the "right" to
614 entertain any speculative or conjectural viewspoints they wish, unless they are
615 a closely reasoned set of propositions supported by established evidence and
616 intended to serve as an explanation for some other group of phenomena, I would
617 object to classifying them as "theory".
618      It is correct to say that one shouldn't wantonly excoriate the beliefs of
619 others, but if a person intentionally places their beliefs on the table for the
620 purpose of argument, he shouldn't be surprised or take offense if they are soon
621 dissected by others with differing opinions.  Such an exchange certainly cannot
622 be labeled wanton excoriation.
623 
624      It seems that some things never change.  Though I've been away for quite
625 some time, this back table still needs to be cleaned.  There aren't any random
626 items lying around that need to be picked up, but the table has been abandoned
627 with much left to be done.  Ah, well, the Innkeeper now leaves, and so shall I.
628
629 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

>