June 24, 1987 Transcript #W203
WLS-TV, 190 North State Street, Chicago, Illinois 60601
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                          THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW <tm>

                                    WITCHES

OPRAH WINFREY ........................................................... Host

                                    Guests:

                     LAURIE CABOT, official witch of Salem
                           DORA RUFFNER, white witch
                     JOSEPH MARQUIS, former satanic priest
                           WHITLEY STRIEBER, author
                        BOB LARSON, Christian minister

Produced by ..................................................... DEBRA DiMAIO
Directed by .................................................... JIM McPHARLIN

Copyright (C)  1987 by WLS-TV, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. This transcript may not be
reproduced  in  whole or in part without permission.  Transcript  produced  by
Journal Graphics, Inc., New York, N.Y.

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THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW Show #W203                      Air Date: June 24, 1987

                                    WITCHES

OPRAH  WINFREY:   Toil and trouble.  That's what's been bubbling  across  this
country  ever since the new movie _The Witches of Eastwick_ started production
last year.  Witches throughout America are outraged by the film's portrayal of
them.   Let's take a look at one of the scenes from _Witches of Eastwick_ that
has caused such controversy. And here it is now.

     [clip from "The Witches of Eastwick"]

WINFREY:  Well,  my first guest led a protest picketing the state film bureau,
saying that the film's portrayal of witches was unfair.  She says that  witch-
craft  and  satanism are two different belief systems and  that  witches  have
never  believed in or worshipped Satan.  She also says that Christians created
all  of those monstrous stories about bad witches.  Meet the official witch of
Salem, Massachusetts, Laurie Cabot.  My next guest calls herself a white witch
and  specializes in shamanic healing,  working with people to help them get in
touch  with their natural forces.  She says that witchcraft is a true religion
of  true magic.  Dora Ruffner is her name.  And my next guest says that  after
spending 18 years as a high satanic priest,  he knows that witchcraft is evil.
He  claims  that  the only way to escape once you've joined is  to  either  be
killed or saved by Jesus Christ. Meet Joseph Marquis. Welcome them all  to the
show. Glad to have you.
     Now,  many people have seen _The Witches of Eastwick_ and view it as just
a light-hearted, funny, amusing, entertaining [movie],  Jack Nicholson is won-
derful, and say that they don't come away feeling that witches are bad.

LAURIE CABOT, official witch of Salem: Well, that's sort of like saying, okay,
we're  going to do a racial picture,  but it's not going to be  racist.  We're
going to do a picture,  and this young boy is going to have only -  this black
boy  is  only going to have a piece of watermelon in his mouth and  he's  only
going to  shuffle a bit in the show,  and he's really -  he  really is friends
with the guy in the big house,  it's okay. It's not okay because  we don't  do
evil with our psychic abilities,  and that's what  it's  portraying.  And  our
psychic abilities are part of our way of life - it's part of our religion, our
art, our science.

WINFREY:  You see it as being a negative portrayal in the same way that  black
people  being  portrayed  as shuffling along,   eating  watermelon  and  fried
chicken,  is bad,  and Indians in all the westerns are the bad guys -  in that
way?

Ms. CABOT:  Absolutely.   There was a movie that just came  out  for  children
called _My Little Pony_, and in it there were three bad witches, not three bad
Buddhists and not three bad Baptists, you know.  There were three bad witches,
and they were cackling and green.  You know, we're always green with a wart on
our nose. Snaggly teeth, you know. And yes, oh yeah, I wear black. Black to us
is a tool.  So do priests,  nuns, rabbis wear black. The High Dalai Lama wears
black in one of his highest rituals. We've done this,  and this is one of  the
recorded  things  about witchcraft from Celtic tribes,  is that we  wear  long
black robes. And I chose to do that because it's a statement, it's a political
statement, and that's why I do it all the time.

WINFREY: Well, if _The Witches of Eastwick_ is a poor portrayal, I would think
that _The Wizard of Oz_ is an incredibly bad portrayal for witches.

Ms. CABOT:  Right,  well,  the good witch was in pink,  though.  She wasn't in
black,  so that makes it okay.  And the whole issue is that word "witch" which
comes from the word "megus," -

WINFREY: Wicca -

Ms. CABOT: "magi" and "magi." [?] "Magisus" [?] still means "witch"  in Greece
today,   and it means "wise people."   And the word came from the word "wise."
"Wit,"  "whit"  and "witch."   And by the time it got to witch,  in the middle
ages,   is  -  during the reformation and the forming of Christianity,  who  -
Christianity  - we're not anti-Christian by the way.  Satanic people are anti-
Christian  because Christianity has a Satan in their deity structure,   people
who went against Christians.  We're pre-Christian - we've been here since  the
beginning of time.  We come out of the Celtic tribes.  We've never changed our
ways.  We brought with us the sense of healing, the sense of using our psychic
abilities. We wear black because it's a tool - it's like wearing a rainbow, it
draws  in light,  so it helps us to be more balanced and psychic.  We use  our
tools,  we emulate our gods and goddesses by dressing and wearing makeup,  and
that's our emulation.

WINFREY:  Would you agree, though, Dora,  that just as there are good Baptists
and  bad  Baptists and good Catholics and good Buddhists and bad  ones,   that
there are good witches and bad witches who perhaps do practice evil?

DORA RUFFNER,  white witch:  I think that there are people who try to practice
evil of all persuasions.

WINFREY: Right.

Ms. RUFFNER:  I  don't know if the problem is that they're actually practicing
evil  or that they separate their own badness.  I  think everybody has  within
themselves dark and light.

WINFREY: I think that too.

Ms. RUFFNER:   And if they think that they're practicing evil,   what  they're
actually doing is  they're  separating  their  shadow from themselves and pro-
jecting that onto something else.

WINFREY: I know that. In metaphysical terms that's exactly what they're doing,
but  it comes out in the exteriorization,  and the manifestation is that  it's
evil.   Regardless  of  whether it's separation of light and  dark,   and  the
conscious mind from the subconscious mind, it still looks like, feels like, is
tangibly evil.

Ms. RUFFNER:   Tastes like,  yes.  And you will have even people who say  that
they're practicing good - in fact,  sometimes the people who say they're doing
the most good are projecting the most evil, because in order to feel good they
have to see the evil outside themselves.

WINFREY: On the other hand, you've been a high priest.

JOSEPH MARQUIS, former satanic priest:  For 18 years, Oprah.  I  first started
when I was at the age of five. I  first - someone sent a demon to me. Now, I'm
talking  about  a literal figurative entity,  something that you can  actually
reach out to. Eventually, as the years passed on -

WINFREY: Somebody sent the demon to you?

Mr. MARQUIS: Right. I'm positive I know who it was.

WINFREY: Okay. Why?  As a five-year-old they sent the demon to you?

Mr. MARQUIS:  Well,  as a matter of fact there are witch queens right now over
entire states who are only 13 years old. Their word is law. Going back to what
you were saying about _The Wizard of Oz_,  _The Wizard of Oz_ was one  of  the
first movies ever where we saw a portrayal of a good witch.  I mean,  now that
philosophy  is  changing.  Before,  we used to think of  witchcraft  from  the
scriptural point of view as being evil. Now suddenly there's a shift.

WINFREY: What is the shift?

Mr. MARQUIS: That there is now a good side.

WINFREY: To the witches.

Mr. MARQUIS: To witchcraft.

WINFREY: Were you a witch?

Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, I was. I was a practicing one for 18 years.

WINFREY: You were a practicing witch, that's what you called yourself.

Mr. MARQUIS: Right. As a matter of fact,  the first thing I started off as was
with  what's known as earth mother religion.  You believe in the plurality  of
gods and goddesses. Eventually -

WINFREY: Which is what Laurie has been telling us.

Mr. MARQUIS: Basically. Eventually, as I got to the higher levels, your philo-
sophy  is changed.  You are now told what's really going on.  Now,  a  lot  of
witches today,  independent witches, people who are doing it by themselves and
those who haven't really reached the higher levels yet,  honestly believe that
they're  just,  you know,  this earth mother religion.   After you get to  the
higher levels,  you're actually told what God you're worshipping.  We call him
Satan,  okay, but they call him Lucifer.  This group I'm talking about isknown
as the illuminati.  They are the most powerful,  subversive group that's  ever
existed in all of man's history.

WINFREY: And where are they existing, here?

Mr. MARQUIS: Yes. As a matter of fact, they've already infiltrated our govern-
ment.  On the back of the one dollar bill you will find three hexagrams and  a
pentacle.  The hexagram with that symbol and the little circle  around it,   a
witch can summon up a demon. Demons you order about, you know, to cause things
to happen. It's not something psychic we all have, you know, this innate power
within us. It's the ordering about of demons.

WINFREY: So other people can order demons to you, or to whomever.

Mr. MARQUIS: If you know how to do it.

WINFREY: If you know how. You say that's true or not, Laurie?

Ms. CABOT: It's not true.

WINFREY: We'll be right back.

     [Commercial break.]

WINFREY:   My next guest started out to write a horror novel about witchcraft,
but  says  that  after  researching witches he discovered  only  goodness  and
beauty.   He says that witches he met doing research for his book _Cat  Magic_
were no more evil than Christians or the practitioners of any other  perfectly
legitimate religion. Although he is not a witch himself he has participated in
many Wiccan rituals.  Please meet Whitley Strieber.  And my next guest is  the
host  of a daily national Christian radio show who says that witchcraft is not
the  harmless  nature religion that the media would have us believe,   but  is
based upon beliefs that are dangerous to society.  Meet Bob Larson and welcome
them both to the show.
     So Whitley, you set out to write a book on witchcraft.

WHITLEY STRIEBER, author: Yeah, a horror novel.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Mr. STRIEBER:  Expecting that it would be about evil satanic witches, the kind
that  she  was describing just a moment ago with the green and the  fangs  and
everything. And I started my research by looking for some witches, and I found
some.   I  went out to Long Island and I found this terrible ritual going  on.
They killed a little goat and it was horrible.  I left the place in disgust. I
followed  it up,  and a week later discovered that these people  weren't  even
witches, that they had to do with a very fanatical religion of another type, a
little  Christian church out there,  and that there was something false  about
what had been done.  And I kept doing research. I  finally found a witch named
Margo Adler,  who's a very famous witch,  and she showed me around to a lot of
other  witches.  And what I discovered was simply this.   you take all of  the

nonsense and the lies and the superstition and the fear,  mainly the fear that
is  in  our hearts,  away,  and what you have is just another human  religion.
That's  all.   And so it turned out to be a religion with really  neat  tradi-
tions, and it made a wonderful book. I had more fun writing _Cat Magic_ than I
ever have had writing one of my books.

WINFREY: So it's just another religion, he says, Bob.

BOB LARSON,  Christian minister:  Everybody's left out the divine perspective.
God's  had  something to say about this for thousands of years,  and when  the
theocratic state of Israel was established and the people of God came into the
promised land,  the Lord set down some priorities on how they were to  conduct
their  affairs  and their forms of worship.  He  mandated  capital  punishment
against witches, not because He's some harsh, vengeful God but because he knew
the ultimate destination of those who followed the ways of Satan was hell, and
God wanted to keep people out of hell.  The real issue is the ultimate  intent
of what witchcraft means from Satan's standpoint.  There's a very real  devil,
there are very real demons, as this man pointed out a moment ago -

Mr. STRIEBER: Oh, there aren't.

Mr. LARSON:  And this is not some very harmless,  benign belief  system.   The
Bible tells us plainly in Second Corinthinans 11  Satan is transformed into an
angel -

Mr. STRIEBER: You have -

Mr. LARSON: This gentleman is trying to interrupt me over here. I  tried to --
[crosstalk]


WINFREY: One at a time. Let him finish.

Mr. LARSON: I tried to meet this young lady before the show,  and this man was
so obnoxious before the show,  he jumped in and wouldn't even let me meet this
young lady. I didn't even know who she was. I don't know what the problem is.

Mr. STRIEBER: Oh, nonsense.

Mr. LARSON:  This man is hardly an objective spokesperson on behalf of  witch-
craft.  Read the front page of his book.   It's an apologetic for  witchcraft.
What we're dealing with here is an ideology rooted in the heart of Satan  that
wants people to end up in hell,  but on the surface wants it to be philanthro-
pically viewed. I want to know where her hospitals are;  I  want to know where
her homes -  for the shelters,  where her food lines are;  I  want to know  if
there's  anything  she's  ever done to benefit humanity on  a,   constructive,
institutional level.

Mr. STRIEBER:  She hasn't got any money.  You've got it all.  And she deserves
some.

Mr. LARSON: Who says I've got the money? You look at my bank account?

Mr. STRIEBER: Not you, but the religion you represent.

Mr. LARSON: You walk around this city and you see how many hospitals there are
in this city established by Christians.

Ms. CABOT:  I don't stand on street corners and collect money because we don't
recruit -

Mr. LARSON: How many witchcraft hospitals are there?

Mr. STRIEBER: They don't have any money.

Ms. CABOT: I don't recruit - [crosstalk]

WINFREY: We're going to have to talk one at a time here.

Mr. STRIEBER: Because it's so small, and it's small and it's innocent and it's
vulnerable.

Mr. LARSON:  She claims it's the first religion. She's had a thousand years to
get her act together.

Mr. STRIEBER: It does not need to be hated anymore; the hate should end.

Mr. LARSON: Christianity has been around 2,000 years.

Ms. CABOT: Christianity burned, hanged and tortured nine million people during
the reformation. [crosstalk]

Mr. LARSON: The institution of Christianity did not -

WINFREY: One at a time.

Mr. STRIEBER: Thank you, Oprah. I'm really not that obnoxious; I'll be nice.

WINFREY: Laurie?

Ms. CABOT: Yes. I  said that Christianity, when it came into existence - we've
been in existence a long,  long time.  We do not have devils,  demons,  and we
don't have a Satan in our deity structure. We do not believe in one;  we still
don't.  We don't do anything harmful.  I'm a recognized reverend by the United
States government. I belong to the National Association of Pantheists, and our
ways are known by everyone. There is nothing harmful in any -

Mr. LARSON:   You're not responding to the issue.  Where are  your  hospitals?
Where are your homeless - [crosstalk]

WINFREY: Who's to say she has to have hospitals, though?

Ms. CABOT: I don't have -

WINFREY:  Who's to say she has to have hospitals?  [crosstalk] Let me just say
this. Please let me speak. There are other religions in this society - this is
a  society in America that allows freedom of the practice of religion --   and
there are religions,  other religions than the practicing of witchcraft,  that
don't  have hospitals,  they don't have homes for the aged,  they  don't  have
organizations  structured  so  as to promote the welfare of  other  people  in
society,  okay.  Please let me finish.  And so are you saying that because she
doesn't do that, that's not a legitimate religion?

Mr. LARSON: I'm saying Jesus Christ made it very plain that spirituality, true
spirituality and true relationship with God,  is proven by the fruit it produ-
ces in terms of helping humanity. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

WINFREY:  But can you not help humanity in other ways?  Can you not help huma-
nity  in ways that don't necessarily mean you form a hospital or home for  the
aged? Can't you help humanity by loving your fellow man and being kind to your
neighbor and treating people -

Mr. LARSON: Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law and harm none is a self-
aggrandizing,  selfish philosophy of witchcraft that is a far cry from turning
the  other cheek,  going the second mile and loving your neighbor as yourself,
and  the  contrast  between  witchcraft and Christianity is very  vivid.   Why
apologize  for  them?  Why not ask them for the proof of what they've done  to
better humanity?

WINFREY: Okay, we will get the answer to that question when we come back. Back
in a moment.

     [Commercial break]

WINFREY: Laurie or Dora, do you care to answer Bob's question?

Ms. RUFFNER: Well, I had a question,  which is that in helping humanity,  many
people - if it goes by you that if you're not helping humanity in the way that
you say - it appears to be that you're helping humanity,  that you are bad, is
it  helping  - if you are destroying the one thing  which  sustains  humanity,
which  is the earth,  the planet,  our environment,  which is  something  that
people in the cause of goodness and trying to help themselves and other people
have separated themselves,  which is why people are, I think,  turning towards
earth-centered religions.  If you are not also helping in that way,  then  are
you also evil?

Mr. LARSON:  The Bible addresses that issue in Romans Chapter I.   It says you
can either worship the creation or the creator,  and witchcraft is the worship
of  that which God made.  Christianity and the Jewish faith teaches that there
is  a  transcendent God above and beyond and apart from creation.   We're  not
worried about a bunch of earth or a grove of trees.  What Christianity is con-
cerned about -

Ms. RUFFNER: Now, wait a minute. How do you know that a grove of trees -

Mr. LARSON: - is the ultimate God.

Ms. RUFFNER:  How do you not know that a grove of trees doesn't contain within
it a piece of the ultimate God.

Mr. LARSON: Because God says so. God is God.  God made the tree,   and the one
who made the tree is greater than the tree.

Ms. RUFFNER: He made it and then He left.

WINFREY: Okay. Laurie?

Ms. CABOT:  That's the difference in our belief. We believe that God exists in
all things, in rocks and stones and trees and within each one of us,  and that
we are totally responsible for every thought and every action that you have. A
thought is a form of action. You know, thoughts are forms of action.

Mr. LARSON: Then who are you accountable to? The Bible teaches when we die -

Ms. CABOT: God.

Mr. LARSON: - we account to God. You can't account to a stone.

Ms. CABOT: Goddess. We have a god and a goddess, by the way.

Mr. LARSON: You're going to account to this chair?

Ms. CABOT: We're leaving out the goddess.

Mr. STRIEBER: I  learned so much about real reverence from these people,  from
the  witches,  more than I ever learned before.  Although I come from  a  very
loving Catholic home, I never knew what reverence for our earth could be until
I  came into the presence of witches who loved it with their blood.   I  never
knew -

WINFREY: What do you mean with their blood?

Mr. STRIEBER: I mean so deeply, so deeply. No -

WINFREY: I don't think that's such a good example you're using.

Mr. STRIEBER: I think it is. I disagree with you, Oprah, I  think it is a good
example.   Because  what I was trying to say is that they love it more  deeply
than I imagined it could be loved.

WINFREY: Caller, you say what? Hello.

1st CALLER: Hello. I'd like to say,  how can you say that this is love and how
can you say you came from a Catholic or Christian home?  My husband joined one
of these groups four years ago.  My life turned to hell,  literally.   Because
there is no goodness; this is evil. My husband took off,  he left behind three
kids,  a job, a  home and a lot of other real good things going on in his life
to be a part of this.

WINFREY: To be a part of what? See, you have to tell us what "this" is.

1st CALLER: A witchcraft cult.

WINFREY: Witchcraft.

1st CALLER: Living in some witch occult group up in a northern suburb.

WINFREY: Of Chicago?

1st CALLER: Yeah.

Ms. CABOT: Why would he leave his family to do that? We have children and fam-
ilies.  We're human beings. I have two daughters.

1st CALLER: I have no doubts that you have children.  They attempted to kidnap
my kids.

Ms. CABOT:  We are airline stewardesses, we are lawyers, we work,  we are part
of the community.

Mr. LARSON: She brings up a very good point.

1st  CALLER:  I  have no doubt that you're in every corner of society.   These
people  attempted to kidnap my children.   They caused us physical harm.  They
caused us emotional harm.  What they have done is destroyed basically what God
put together, a family.

Mr. STRIEBER: Well, that's very sad -

WINFREY:  Caller, could you not accept this premise, just a possibility,  just
that  there are people who have wars and kill each other in the name of  Jesus
Christ, that there are also people who practice witchcraft and do all kinds of
horrible, inhumane things to other people?

1st CALLER: Well, I know they do this. I  don't have to live with it or accept
it.   Four years ago,  for instance,  my husband had a party at the house.  We
weren't invited to it;  he said it was a bachelor party.  We came home to find
several people still at our house just kind of sitting - they had killed three
of our cats at one of these parties.

Mr. STRIEBER: A witch would never kill a cat.

Mr. LARSON: That is not true. They do it all the time.

Mr. STRIEBER: No, they don't.

Mr. LARSON: You can't get off the hook that easy.

WINFREY: Please speak just - [crosstalk]

Mr. MARQUIS:  Oprah,  there are eight ceremonies on a witch's calendar.  There
are certain sabbaths that must be done every single year.

Ms. CABOT: That's not true.

Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact -

WINFREY: Let him speak. Thank you.

Mr. MARQUIS:  Four of them are definite human sacrifice ones.  The victims are
easily picked up.  They are wandering teenagers looking for a good time,  run-
aways,  skid row bums, paper boys,  paper girls.  You can go out to the street
the day before or the day during, pick up that child, drug him, or whoever you
want to, get him ready for the ceremony,  and at that time they will slice the
person's  throat open,  pick up the blood in a chalice,  because they  believe
that the power in the blood will add to them.

WINFREY: How do you know this?

Mr. MARQUIS: I wasn't the only one who practiced this.

WINFREY:   So  you have practiced in going out and picking up people  off  the
street and slicing their throats?

Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, they were the easiest ways to -

Ms. CABOT: And why aren't you in jail?

WINFREY: Wait a minute. I want him to say -

Ms. CABOT: Why didn't they kill him, and why aren't you in jail?

WINFREY: Please let him speak.

Mr. MARQUIS: Sharon Tate-La Bianca's murder, okay, was a witch's hitting. Sha-
ron Tate wanted out, but the thing is, the illuminati -

WINFREY: What do you mean she wanted out? She was a witch?

Mr. MARQUIS:  Yes, she was tired of it.  She wanted to get out,  but the thing
was -

WINFREY: Sharon Tate was a witch, okay. You base those allegations on what?

Mr. MARQUIS: On when I was in, myself. I'm not the only one who knows this in-
formation.   Anybody who was in witchcraft during that time can tell  you  the
same thing.

WINFREY: That Sharon Tate was a practicing witch?

Mr. MARQUIS: Yes. As a matter of fact, the illuminati -

WINFREY:  I have no information to refute it, so I'm only going on what you're
saying.

Mr. MARQUIS: The illuminati sent Charles Manson in to kill her.  If you remem-
ber,  she was killed, one leg was strung up from the rafter,  her hands behind
her,  her throat sliced open. There is a tarot, 78 cards in a tarot deck.  You
look at the 12th major arcane one,  it looks like the hangman.  That's exactly
how Sharon Tate-La Bianca was left. Charles Manson did not go into prison;  he
volunteered to go in.

WINFREY: So you're saying that Charles Manson came from this group,  the illu-
minati.

Mr. MARQUIS: He's one of the most powerful wizards alive today.

WINFREY: And it was a part of this whole witch plan.

Mr. MARQUIS: Yes.

WINFREY: And are you also saying that as a practicing high priest and a former
witch, that you participated in human sacrifice?

Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact, my group, we did.

WINFREY:  You actuall stood there,  sat there,   and watched somebody's throat
slashed?

Mr. MARQUIS: It would be either kids, grown-ups, animals. And the thing is, we
didn't body bag these people afterwards.  We'd just take them,  throw them  in
the woods, the side of the road on a highway. Somebody's going to find them.

WINFREY: We'll be right back.

     [Commercial break]

WINFREY:   You can't argue if he says he was a high priest and that's what  he
saw and what they did, fine. But I think what we need to establish here,  what
you're saying is that there is a difference between satanism and witchcraft.

Mr. STRIEBER: A great difference. But there's also a lot more. That made me so
sad to hear that. First of all, for him and the suffering that must be in this
poor man.

Mr. MARQUIS: I'm not suffering. I'm feeling great.

Mr. STRIEBER:   If he has indeed participated in the killing of another  human
being, he's suffering from the rest of his life, in all seriousness.

Mr. MARQUIS: You know, as a matter of fact, when I became a born-again -

WINFREY: Now you have to let him finish. Thank you.

Mr. STRIEBER:  Now,  he wrote this little document that your office has that I
was given parts of to read.

WINFREY: _I, Witch_.

Mr. STRIEBER: Yeah. He says there are three million witches. I  just want to -
of his ilk in New England.  He says they participate in human sacrifice.  Now,
here is the truth.  There are 14.6 million people in New England, 5.9  million
of them are Catholics,  1.6 million of them are Protestants,  according to the
United  States Census in 1980.  Now,  there can't be twice as many witches  as
Protestants in New England. Come on.

WINFREY: But if you are a witch - let me just ask you this here,  Whitley - if
you are a witch,  is it something, particularly after hearing him speak, is it
something you would want to come out and tell people you are?  So if you are a
practicing witch, would you even admit it? So who knows who the witches are?

Mr. STRIEBER:  The courage it takes to get up here for a witch is great,  yes.
But they're doing something good, they're doing something wonderful.

Mr. LARSON: It's called publicity, not courage.

Mr. MARQUIS: Human sacrifice is anything but wonderful.

Mr. STRIEBER: Well, then why are you here?

Mr. LARSON: I'm here because I was invited to be here. I don't need the publi-
city.  I've got my own talk show every day.  She needs it and that's why she's
here.

WINFREY: Are you here because of publicity, Laurie?

Ms. CABOT: Absolutely not. If I never have another TV show,  another interview
on a newspaper,  I'm still going to look the same,  I'm still going to put the
eye  makeup  on,  I'm still going to be a witch,  I'm still going to  practice
meditation and healing and balance.  I'm going to do my magic because it's our
way  of life.  And the one thing that other religions are afraid of us for  is
because we do our own magic. We are attributed with our own miracles.  As well
as our god and goddess doing miracles, creating the universe and the earth and
the  earth  mother and the sun,  and those kind of terms that we use  for  the
energy of the god and goddess, we also are a part of the god and goddess.  And
we are attributed to do our own magic, to heal ourselves, to keep our families
healed, to keep food on the table, a roof over your head and be protected, and
to keep the animals growing and the earth growing and the plants.  That's part
of our ways. Those are our ways of life.

WINFREY: May I ask you this? If you really don't want this negative attention,
although  I know you have the right to dress and look and be whatever you want
to be, why the dark makeup and the black garb?

Ms. CABOT: Because it is traditional.  Black robes are our tradition, like Ca-
tholics, the priests and nuns and rabbis wear black. The High Dalai Lama wears
black. It's our tradition, so it's our right. I made a dedication as a politi-
cal  statement to dress in our traditional clothing for the rest of  my  life,
because we can't do it. Because she could be a witch, she could be a witch, he
could be a witch,  and no one would know it because we're not green and  ugly,
wearing long, black robes. And I wanted to stand out and say,  "Wait a minute.
I'm not a harmful person. I have children. I'm a healer. I love this earth.  I
love this universe. I am a part of the god and goddess, and I want to show you
that I'm a human being and I do not do evil. We do not do evil." And we -

WINFREY: Would you -

Ms. CABOT: Let me tell you why we went into hiding. We had nine million people
burned,  hanged and tortured under the wrong definition of witch.  That  means
that every family  had  someone tortured and hanged and burned.  It was a ter-
rible time -

Mr. LARSON: That's a myth and - [crosstalk]

Ms. CABOT: It's true. And we went silent.

Mr. LARSON: There's no documentation of that.

Ms. CABOT: We swore to secrecy and we went underground. It was the wrong thing
to do,  because it left a gray area where you people could say anything at all
about us.

WINFREY: You're saying the Salem witch trials is not documented?

Mr. LARSON: Of course they took place. But those inflated statistics have been
battered around for years, and she's giving this pretty little sermon.

Ms. CABOT: What, 19 people in Salem?

Mr. LARSON: The ultimate issue is what happens when you die. The Bible addres-
ses  the issue as heaven or hell;  she's going to address it as coming back or
whatever in terms of reincarnation.

Ms. CABOT: I didn't say that.

Mr. LARSON: I want to know what she does -

Ms. CABOT: I believe reincarnation -

Mr. LARSON:  If we're going to talk about religion,  I  want to know what  the
sexual ethic is,  I  want to know how they deal with the problem of suffering,
how they deal with the nature of eternity,  not all this warm, fuzzy gobbledy-
gook. What is your sexual ethic?

Ms. CABOT: What is my sexual ethic?

Mr. STRIEBER: What is your sexual ethic? You tell us first.

Mr. LARSON:  Read the Ten Commandments. You're a Catholic.  You know what they
are.

Mr. STRIEBER: You tell us your sexual ethic.

Mr. LARSON:  I  can tell you.  Look in the Bible and you'll find out my sexual
ethic.

Ms. CABOT: Excuse me, can I say one of the Ten Commandments? [crosstalk]

WINFREY: You can say it when we come back, after this. We'll be back.

     [Commercial break]

WINFREY: Laurie? Yes.

Ms. CABOT:  Yes,  I  just wanted to repeat one of the Ten Commandments that  I
think he broke: thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Mr. LARSON: How did I break that?

Ms. CABOT:   Because you're saying things about me that are not true.   You're
making up stories about things that I believe.

Mr. LARSON:   I   was talking generically in broad  categorizations  regarding
witchcraft.

Ms. CABOT: No, we're not. I'm trying to be specific.

Mr. LARSON: Well, be specific.

Ms. CABOT: I am.

Mr. LARSON:  What do you do with the nature of suffering?  What do you do with
the nature of eternity? You have a religion; tell us about eternity. What hap-
pens when you die?

Ms. CABOT: Well, that's your belief. How do you know -

Mr. LARSON: I'm asking yours.

Ms. CABOT:  I believe that we go on forever? I mean,  you're assuming an awful
lot.

Mr. LARSON: Reincarnation is a standard tenet of witchcraft.

Ms. CABOT: Why are you assuming that you know what I believe?

WINFREY: What did you say about reincarnation?

Mr. LARSON: Reincarnation is a standard tenet of witchcraft.

Mr. STRIEBER: Standard tenet of -

WINFREY: There are a lot of people who believe in reincarnation, however, that
are not witches.  And I would like to ask you,  does she not have the right to
practice whatever religion she chooses to practice?

Mr. LARSON: Absolutely. Perfectly.

WINFREY: What is it that you have against her religion? Let me ask you,  is it
because it's not Christian, because she doesn't believe what you believe, that
it's wrong?

Mr. LARSON:  It's because there is an eternity, there is a heaven,  there is a
hell.

WINFREY: That's what you believe, though.

Mr. LARSON: That's what God says. We're either going to believe what God -

WINFREY: That's what the God you serve says.

Mr. LARSON:  That's what the Bible says, and that's what the God of the Scrip-
tures says, and one either does objectively accept -

WINFREY: Okay, so what about the Hindus and the Buddhists and the Moslems, are
they all wrong?

Mr. LARSON: God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son -

WINFREY: Answer the question.

Mr. LARSON: Jesus Christ -

WINFREY: Answer the question. [crosstalk]

Mr. STRIEBER: He won't answer it directly.

Mr. LARSON: I'm answering the question. [crosstalk]

Ms. CABOT: Christianity is a minority religion.


Mr. LARSON: If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are saved.

WINFREY: But let me ask you this. Does that mean if you don't believe in Jesus
Christ, if you are Jewish and you don't believe in Jesus Christ, or if you are
of other religions and you don't believe in Jesus Christ, are they as wrong as
the people who practice witchcraft?

Mr. LARSON: The Bible posits where to go in the world and preach the gospel to
every  creature,  and every individual is judged according to their conscience
and the like knowledge of God they have according to the revelation of God  as
they have sought God beholding His wonder in creation. [crosstalk]

WINFREY: But that's your interpretation of the Bible. That's your -

Mr. LARSON: That is historic Christianity.

Mr. STRIEBER: Christianity is getting a bad rap up here,  and I want to defend
it, because I am a Catholic and I apologize for him.

Mr. LARSON:  You apologize for  witches,   and you're going to defend Christi-
anity?

Mr. STRIEBER: Christianity is about love, gentleness, openness, acceptance. We
all know that this is true,  this is the truth in our hearts.  It's not  about
this rejecting, being close-minded, being afraid. They're afraid. He's afraid.

Mr. LARSON: Afraid of what? What's he afraid of?

Mr. STRIEBER: He's - believe me, these people -

WINFREY: Joseph, yes? Because you are now a born-again Christian.

Mr. MARQUIS: Christian, right. I was raised a Catholic.

Mr. STRIEBER: A Catholic, a witch, he's everything.

Mr. MARQUIS:  See it was a great - I'll answer that. You see,  back when I was
just as afraid as any other witch of being caught. What I did, I taught Sunday
school as a Catholic.

Mr. STRIEBER: Look, I think -

WINFREY: Please let him finish. I want to hear what he has to say.

Mr. MARQUIS:  If anybody tried to pin anything on me,  I  could just go to the
priest. They would say,  "Wait a second,  this guy is a long,  faithful Catho-
lic." [crosstalk]

Mr. STRIEBER:  But he's saying he taught Sunday school as a Catholic,  and  we
don't have Sunday schools.  We don't have - now,  wait a minute.  There's some
flim-flam going on here, Oprah.

WINFREY: Where did you teach Sunday School?

Mr. MARQUIS: It was called St. Mary's. It's in Lawrence, Massachusetts.

Mr. STRIEBER: St. Mary's, which one? Which one?

Mr. MARQUIS: In Lawrence, Mass., there's only one.

Mr. LARSON: Don't get so uptight.

WINFREY:   I  want to know,  so you say you taught Sunday school.  [crosstalk]
Please  let's  talk  one  at a time.  You taught Sunday school  as  a  way  of
disguising your ...

Mr. MARQUIS:   Right.  I   was as afraid as most other witches then  of  being
caught. There was a lot of turmoil going on. Now, I  don't care if you call it
white,  gray, luciferianism, satanism, the earth mother religion,  you have to
consider  where  is the source.   The source is all in the one saint,  and  it
doesn't come from God. There is one other thing, though.

WINFREY: Where does it come from, you claim?

Mr. MARQUIS: It comes from Satan.

Ms. CABOT: That's their belief system. They have a Satan. I  don't even have a
Satan.

Mr. MARQUIS: That is a fact.

WINFREY: Can you accept the fact that perhaps maybe there are people who prac-
tice it, but maybe she's absolutely telling us the truth?

Mr. MARQUIS: Oh, as a matter of fact -

WINFREY: That she's a good witch.

Mr. MARQUIS: - according to her knowledge, she is. I believe every single word
this lady over here is saying.  Because the thing is, I was fed that same line
when I first began.

Ms. CABOT: By whom?

WINFREY:  So at what time is she going to be fed a different line?   Does  she
have to go higher up the heirarchy of witchdom and then discover -

Mr. MARQUIS: Well, she is an established witch of Salem, okay.  She's going to
be  there  forevermore,  probably.  Unless you get into some of the  real  big
organizations, like the illuminati, okay, in the illuminati, once you get past
the third level they will tell you what's really going on.

WINFREY: You say there is no illuminati?

Ms. CABOT: Give me an address.

Mr. STRIEBER: What is it? It doesn't exist.

Ms. CABOT:  Give me a phone number and an address. I'll call them. I'd like to
know who these people are.

WINFREY: We'll be right back.

     [Commercial break]

WINFREY: I  think what's confusing to those of us in the audience here is that
neither side refuses to accept the fact that each side exists.  You did,  how-
ever,   say that you believe that she is right - or that at least she believes
what  she says is true.  You say that the illuminati,  this cult  of  witches,
doesn't exist. What if -

Mr. STRIEBER: I think there's flim-flam going on down at the end of the stage.
I've got to be just very plain-spoken about it.

WINFREY: In what way?

Mr. LARSON: [unintelligible], please.

Mr. STRIEBER: Past you. No, you're for real, sadly enough.

WINFREY: In what way do you consider -

Mr. STRIEBER:  Well,   I've got to - he says in his book that there are  three
million witches in New England.  He says they're practicing human sacrifice. I
had my researchers yesterday call 10 police departments in New England. No one
had  heard anything about any human sacrifices taking place in their towns  in
the past five years. And it cannot be kept secret.

WINFREY:  Let me ask you this.  What about all the children's - we did a show,
one of the moist poignant shows that I recall,  with a 10-year-old boy, a  10-
year-old boy who had been brought into a cult.  Whether they called themselves
witches, whether they called themselves satanists, this child had been brought
into a cult,  witnessed human sacrifices and said what they do, just as Joseph
said  to  us today,   they throw the bodies away or they burn the bodies.  And
there  are  missing  children,  missing people all over  this  country.   Just
because, Whitley,  nobody found the bodies and nobody called in to a newspaper
and said human sacrifices are going on, doesn't mean that it does not exist.

Mr. STRIEBER:  You're right, Oprah.  There may be something terrible happening
in this United States. That's very true.

WINFREY:  And I think it's unfortunate that we close our eyes to the fact that
something  terrible is going on in these United States.   It doesn't mean that
they are doing it,  but for you to say it doesn't exist says to me that you're
closing your eyes.

Mr. STREIBER: No, it's not true.

Ms. CABOT:  It  exists,  but I think you're aggrandizing it.  I   don't  think
there's  millions of people out there doing that.  I  think there's people who
are skulking under rocks somewhere doing that kind of stuff.  It's illegal and
it's nasty. It's totally against our way of life. It terrifies me.

WINFREY: Okay, I accept that.

Ms. RUFFNER:  What I hear is that everybody,  everyone,  is giving away  their
power  to discriminate in the present moment what is good for them,   what  is
their truth. I mean, if you are in a group and you cannot tell that that group
has about it the kind of people and energy that would include human sacrifice,
then  you're  sadly  not in touch with something.  And if it  matters  to  you
whether they say they're a witch or a Catholic or a Buddhist or something,  if
you have to look at that before you can look at a person and say,  "I see you,
and I see who you are," then -

Mr. MARQUIS: No, you see a lot of us - excuse me - a lot of us were too afraid
to  get out.  You see,  most people who belong to the illuminati,  you get out
within 24 hours, you have nothing less than a $10,000 bounty put on your head.

WINFREY: Who's going to pay it?

Mr. MARQUIS: They don't care how it's collected.

WINFREY: Who's going to pay the bounty?

Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact, the illuminati has their own hitmen.

Ms. CABOT: Who is he talking about?

Mr. STREIBER: I don't know what he's talking about. He's crazy.

Mr. MARQUIS:  Oh, they do. As a matter of fact, Dr.  Adam Wieshopf [?] in 1776
established this order. As a matter of fact, it was supposed to be a new world
order,  as he called it, getting the brightest, the best of intelligent people
to guide and control the earth.

WINFREY: So what's going to happen to you for speaking out against the illumi-
nati?

Mr. MARQUIS:  I've already had six attempts on my life.   They have failed  so
far.

Ms. CABOT: They're very bad at their magic.

Mr. MARQUIS: I know people - [crosstalk]

Mr. STREIBER: They're [unintelligible] but they missed him.

WINFREY: We'll be back.

     [Commercial break.]

WINFREY:  So what you're trying to tell us is that there are people who  prac-
tice evil under the guise of being witches.

Mr. STREIBER:  They call themselves witches in order - and it does two things.
It gives witches a bad rap, and it creates a completely false impression about
what real witches do. Witches want to save their word. They want their word to
belong to them, and I don't blame them. They have a right to hear words.

Mr. LARSON: Do they do hexes and spells?

Mr. STREIBER: You answer that question.

Ms. CABOT: No. Hexes and spells - the word "spell" does not equate with evil.

Mr. LARSON: You've never done a hex or a spell?

Ms. CABOT: Not a hex.

Mr. LARSON: Have you put a spell on somebody?

Ms. CABOT: Yes. Spells are prayers. They are projections.

Mr. LARSON: No, have you ever put a spell on - [crosstalk]

Mr. STREIBER: You are twisting her words.

Ms. CABOT: You want to ask me? You're twisting my words.

Mr. LARSON: I'm asking, have you put a spell on somebody?

Ms. CABOT: Yes.

Mr. LARSON: And what did you do to him?

Ms. CABOT: I healed them.

Mr. LARSON: Only healed them?

Ms. CABOT: That's right.

Mr. LARSON: Never done evil?

Ms. CABOT: No, I don't do evil.

Mr. LARSON: Good, glad to hear that. Wonderful.

Ms. CABOT:  You should be glad,  because if I was a black witch you'd probably
be in trouble right now. [laughter]

Mr. LARSON: No, no,  Jesus Christ is in me and the power of the Holy Spirit is
greater than anything that's in you.

Mr. STREIBER: Oprah, you think you can grab the show back from us?

WINFREY: I don't know why I even came here today. Yes?

Mr. MARQUIS: Oprah, there was a book that was published by Dr. Raymond Buckley
[?]. It's called _Practical Candle Burning_. It will show you how, as a witch,
you can use ceremonies with candles to cast spells.  Now,  that will be on the
left  side of whatever page you're looking at.  Now,  if you look on the right
hand side of the page,  you'll see how they're going to tell you,  you can use
the Holy Scriptures to cast spells.

Mr. STREIBER: Now, wait a minute. Let's ask, who exactly wrote this book?

Mr. MARQUIS:  As  a  matter of fact,   how does that equate with what  God  is
telling  us with witchcraft?  God said that thou shalt not suffer a  witch  to
live. That was back then. Nowadays -

Ms. CABOT: No, it didn't say that. I know what the original scripture said.

Mr. MARQUIS:  As a matter of fact,   the punishment back then was  stoning  to
death.

Mr. LARSON: You're going to tell us what the Bible says? [crosstalk] What does
it say?

Ms. CABOT: King James, thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live in Greek.

Mr. LARSON: And what does it say in Revelations Number One about - [crosstalk]

WINFREY: One at a time.

Ms. CABOT:  -  and added the word "witch"  so that he could hang and burn  and
torch them. You can make use of any word -

Mr. MARQUIS: She knows a different Greek than - [crosstalk]

WINFREY: One at a time. Yes?

Mr. MARQUIS:   She said it was from the Greek.  The scripture quotation I just
said comes from the Hebrew. It's not Greek. As a matter of fact - [crosstalk]

Ms. RUFFNER:  Oh,  here you go.  How many people here speak Hebrew?   How many
people -

Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact, you will find it -

WINFREY: One at a time. I'm going to commercial. Forget it.

     [Commercial break.]

WINFREY: Bob, your position is what? We should fear them, we should -

Mr. LARSON: Absolutely. I have absolutely no fear of this person, any hexes or
spells or anything.

Ms. CABOT: Good, because I don't do them.

Mr. LARSON:  I   think that we should understand witchcraft is based upon  the
false worship of a fallen angel who was defeated by Jesus Christ at the cross,
and  witchcraft has absolutely no power to the child of God who has been  born
again. The name of Jesus Christ is the power over witchcraft, and if anybody's
afraid about any witch anywhere,  all they've got to do is get  on their knees
and ask God for help and strength to overcome that power. Greater is Christ in
me than anything she has in her, around her or -

WINFREY: And you agree? You're in agreement?

Mr. MARQUIS:  Yes,  as a matter of fact, a  very good friend of mine,  Gilbert
Gomez,   he's  going to be working with me and my pastor.  We're going  to  be
trying  to form some type of outreach for these people who sincerely want out.
As  a  matter of fact,  I  couldn't agree with this man more because  he  jsut
stated exactly what the Holy Scriptures just said. Witchcraft is a threat.

WINFREY: Okay. You say, however?

Ms. CABOT:  I  say that we are loving people,  we are not a threat.  We  don't
believe in Satan, we don't have their devils. And we don't do things that way.
If  people would like to understand us more,  we've been in the dark so  long,
we're trying to help explain what we are and we're trying to be open about it.
I  have a newsletter called _The Witch's Companion_.  If people want to  write
for it,  they can do that, and then maybe they can begin to understand.  We're
not trying to recruit anybody either.

WINFREY: Okay. Thank you all. It's been interesting.

