===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-07-94 (11:31)             Number: 1176
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DON BIVENS                    Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Don was saying to James on 06 Mar 94  00:41:00 <<
 -=> Quoting Daniel North to James White <=-

 DN> On 03-03-94, JAMES WHITE wrote to ROBERT MCKAY:

 JW> I took this echo back when I was reading/responding to Gayle
 JW> Riplinger's _New Age Bible Versions_.  Sadly, I've become the
 JW> nation's expert on Gayle, since I was the last person she debated
 JW> (she won't do that anymore).  A large portion of my mail these day
 JW> has to do with Riplinger's book.  < sigh >

DB>Wow!  What kind of info can you give on this woman?  I heard that
she h
DB>credentials were in home-ec, is this so?

Yes, that is correct.  Bob and Gretchen Passantino looked into that,
and
found her degrees were in home economics and interior design.  I'm sure
she
bakes great cookies and her front room is probably immaculate.

DB>There's a KJV-only, rabid-fundie, old time Church of God guy here in
DB>Charlotte
DB>who has been using her book for the subject matter of his weely
radio
DB>broad-
DB>casts.  It would be nice to have something to counter this insanity
wit

DB>Oh, in case you keep up with the news, this same preacher is the one
wh
DB>raised all the stink about Barney being a "New Age Messiah".  Sheesh!

That doesn't surprise me much.  Gayle won't debate anymore, but if that
fellow in Charlotte would be willing to do so, get us in touch!  I can
send
him, and you, the tape of the two programs I did with Riplinger back in
November.  They turned out to be the last "debates" she was willing to
do.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... God is to be feared.  --Psalm 76:7
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-08-94 (21:20)             Number: 1243
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-07-94, JAMES WHITE wrote to DON BIVENS:

 JW> Yes, that is correct.  Bob and Gretchen Passantino looked into
that,
 JW> and found her degrees were in home economics and interior design.
 JW> I'm sure she bakes great cookies and her front room is probably
 JW> immaculate.

Yes, and Gretchen (side note) is also one of our writing professors at
Concordia University in Irvine.  She's a pretty nice person, but a
harder
prof (so I hear (g)).  To your comment:  ROFL.

 JW> That doesn't surprise me much.  Gayle won't debate anymore, but if
 JW> that fellow in Charlotte would be willing to do so, get us in
touch!
 JW> I can send him, and you, the tape of the two programs I did with
 JW> Riplinger back in November.  They turned out to be the last
 JW> "debates" she was willing to do.

I might be interested, too.  Also, Jeff Spector might want to talk to
you
about the KJV and other, more reliable translations of the Bible.
Check
what I said in MORMONISM and see if you agree with what I wrote.

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-07-94 (18:51)             Number: 1248
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: DON BIVENS                    Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DB>Oh, in case you keep up with the news, this same preacher is the one
who
DB>raised all the stink about Barney being a "New Age Messiah".  Sheesh!

ACtually, there is an outfit called the Church of Barney Dinosaur,
Transcendent.

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X If God meant it that way, it would've been Adam
& Steve.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-11-94 (00:44)             Number: 1474
From: DEBRA BOUEY                  Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On (07 Mar 94) James White wrote to Don Bivens...

 JW> Yes, that is correct.  Bob and Gretchen Passantino looked into
that,
 JW> and found her degrees were in home economics and interior design.
I'm
 JW> sure she bakes great cookies and her front room is probably
immaculate.

Her fabric choices are probably well-coordinated and prime too,
but what does THAT do toward her credentials as a Biblical scholar
I wonder...;-)

IC,
Debra

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
|        NETMAIL> FamilyNet 8:200/403 / Fido 1:396/1.15           |
| INTERNET> debra.bouey@ozonehole.com / 74241.3502@compuserve.com |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

... The truth of our faith will be tested by our lives.

--- PPoint 1.80
 * Origin: Deb's Point (8:200/403)
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===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:30)             Number: 1740
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: DEBRA BOUEY                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DB>Her fabric choices are probably well-coordinated and prime too,
DB>but what does THAT do toward her credentials as a Biblical scholar
DB>I wonder...;-)

Reminds me of a book in the UMI library on "*Book fo Mormon
archaeology".  It's written by an artist.               :+{>

I am not qualified to speak authoritatively on anything that I can't
find in Strong, Vine, Zodhiates, or whomever.  I also make sure that I
don't go beyond this.  Some people who have, apparently, even
fewer
qualifications believe themselves perfectly capable of discoursing at
great length and with great dogmatism on everything under the sun.
<sigh>
___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X Celibacy is not hereditary.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-17-94 (23:22)             Number: 1914
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Re: Robert Mckay's message to Debra Bouey,
*     entitled "Gayle" on 03-16-94  07:28.

 RM> Some people who have, apparently, even fewer
 RM> qualifications believe themselves perfectly capable of discoursing
at
 RM> great length and with great dogmatism on everything under the sun.

(Nodding head furiously in agreement.)  I have been wanting to make up a
list of timely tips for curious Christians, with statements such as the
following:

        * The words "HOLY BIBLE" on the front cover of a Bible will
          NOT make your Bible any holier.

        * Scofield Reference notes are NOT a part of the inspired text.

        * N.I.V. is a Bible translation;  H.I.V. is a virus.
          The King James Version is a Bible Translation; "James King"
          is not, neither is "St. James."

        * Christ did not speak in red letters.

        * There is no such thing as an "anointed" Bible; there IS such
          a thing as an "annotated" Bible.

        * The apostles did not write, nor use, the King James Version.

        * The only thing that Gayle Riplinger's book has in common with
          accepted scholarly works on Biblical translation is a cover,
          pages and ink.

Ciao!
Daryl

... Straw should make no pact with fire.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-18-94 (12:12)             Number: 1980
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to Robert on 17 Mar 94  23:22:16 <<

DW>(Nodding head furiously in agreement.)  I have been wanting to make
up
DW>list of timely tips for curious Christians, with statements such as
the
DW>following:

DW>        * The words "HOLY BIBLE" on the front cover of a Bible will
DW>          NOT make your Bible any holier.

But it will make YOU feel holier while you carry it.

DW>        * Scofield Reference notes are NOT a part of the inspired
text.

Really??  Yikes!

DW>        * N.I.V. is a Bible translation;  H.I.V. is a virus.
DW>          The King James Version is a Bible Translation; "James King"
DW>          is not, neither is "St. James."

Ssshhhhh!  Gayle hasn't thought of paralleling NIV and HIV.....YET.

DW>        * Christ did not speak in red letters.

To the stake with him!!!

DW>        * There is no such thing as an "anointed" Bible; there IS
such
DW>          a thing as an "annotated" Bible.

< ROFL >

DW>        * The apostles did not write, nor use, the King James
Version.

I see the liberals have already ruined you.

DW>        * The only thing that Gayle Riplinger's book has in common
with
DW>          accepted scholarly works on Biblical translation is a
cover,
DW>          pages and ink.

You forgot one: verbosity.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... "Piccard, why are you putting iron shavings in Data's head?"
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-18-94 (19:22)             Number: 2163
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RM> X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X Celibacy is not hereditary.

I forgot about your memorable taglines. (Has it been *that* long?) BTW,
your posts themselves are usually pretty good too. <g>

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-19-94 (23:34)             Number: 2321
From: DEBRA BOUEY                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: GAYLE                          Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On (15 Mar 94) Robert McKay wrote to Debra Bouey...

 RM> Reminds me of a book in the UMI library on "*Book fo Mormon
 RM> archaeology".  It's written by an artist.               :+{>

Has nice artwork, huh? <sly grin emerges>

 RM> I am not qualified to speak authoritatively on anything that I
can't
 RM> find in Strong, Vine, Zodhiates, or whomever.  I also make sure
that I

Zodhiates? I have a copy of the H/G study Bible myself--I like
having access to the quick references in the back.

 RM> don't go beyond this.  Some people who have, apparently, even fewer
 RM> qualifications believe themselves perfectly capable of discoursing
at
 RM> great length and with great dogmatism on everything under the sun.
 RM> <sigh>

Aye, I've seen Strong's used to grind "root" words to powder for
the sake of "argument". From what I can understand in my limited
knowledge of Koine Greek, and particularly Biblical Hebrew, the
exact definition of a number of the "root" words are sometimes
nebulous, leaving us to depend on context and the accumulative
evidences of Scripture for a proper understanding.

Debra, 74241.3502@compuserve.com

... Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is equally dead.
Many will say "Lord, Lord"...

--- PPoint 1.80
 * Origin: Deb's Point (8:200/403)
SEEN-BY: 8/0 14 2000 100/0 200/0 403 3000/13 3200/207 7000/43
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-08-94 (21:19)             Number: 1242
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-07-94, JAMES WHITE wrote to DANIEL NORTH:

 JW> Nope, and little need to, either.  Riplinger is 99% air.  There is
 JW> nothing scholarly, or serious, about the book.  It's like trying
to
 JW> deal with a Jack Chick comic book.

You give Chick that much credit? (g)

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-07-94 (18:50)             Number: 1247
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW>Nope, and little need to, either.  Riplinger is 99% air.  There is
nothing
JW>scholarly, or serious, about the book.  It's like trying to deal
with a
JW>Jack Chick comic book.

Sounds like Riplinger and Ruckman are clones.           :+{>

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X Who are you to reply against God?  (Rom. 9:20)

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-04-94 (23:23)             Number: 1305
From: DEBRA BOUEY                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On (01 Mar 94) Robert McKay wrote to All...

 RM> And with that, I leave us all to see what happens.

Brave soul, 'tain't ya'? ;-)

Debra

     +--------------------------------------------------+
     | NETMAIL--> FamilyNet 8:200/403 / Fido 1:396/1.15 |
     |      INTERNET--> debra.bouey@ozonehole.com       |
     +--------------------------------------------------+

... Conduct and conversation are the grand test of character.

--- PPoint 1.80
 * Origin: Deb's Point (8:200/403)
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===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-10-94 (21:13)             Number: 1365
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Robert was saying to James on 07 Mar 94  18:50:00 <<

JW>Nope, and little need to, either.  Riplinger is 99% air.  There is n
JW>scholarly, or serious, about the book.  It's like trying to deal wit
JW>Jack Chick comic book.

RM>Sounds like Riplinger and Ruckman are clones.           :+{>

Ruckman is more SOLID than Riplinger, if THAT tells you anything.

Sadly, after more than 10 years of work in Mormonism, about six years
of
work in Roman Catholicism, numerous books, scholarly debates, etc., it
looks like I'm finally becoming nationally known: as the greatest
living
expert on Gayle Riplinger's _New Age Bible Versions_.  I've been
invited to
speak at a conference with folks like Norm Geisler, Craig Branch, and
Eric
Pement in September, and on what?  Yup, Gayle Riplinger.  < sigh >  God
*does* have a sense of humor!  (:

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Alleluia!  For our Lord God Almighty reigns.  --Rev. 19:6
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-11-94 (23:27)             Number: 1383
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: PAUL THOMAS                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-10-94, PAUL THOMAS wrote to DANIEL NORTH:

 PT> Is this "Gender Specific"? (G)

We'll have to find out what *she* says. (G)

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-14-94 (08:18)             Number: 1582
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RM> Through the good offices of James White and his Pros Apologian BBS
RM> (I'm trying flattery today; I browbeat people tomorrow <g>), I am
RM> now here.

How do you find the time with all the other conferences you contribute

to and a moderatorship on NewLife?  Anyway, good to read you here too.
Are you also getting Apologia? Lots of good discussion on Mormonism
there.

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X The only right a sinner has is to go to hell.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:24)             Number: 1737
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW>RM>Sounds like Riplinger and Ruckman are clones.           :+{>

JW>Ruckman is more SOLID than Riplinger, if THAT tells you anything.

Oy!

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X Boot, n: Footware worn when kicking computer

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:25)             Number: 1738
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: DEBRA BOUEY                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DB> RM> And with that, I leave us all to see what happens.

DB>Brave soul, 'tain't ya'? ;-)

I have been informed that bravery and foolhardiness are
indistinguishable. <g>

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X C-130 Hercules

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:27)             Number: 1739
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: CHUCK GREEN                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CG>RM> Through the good offices of James White and his Pros Apologian
BBS
CG>RM> (I'm trying flattery today; I browbeat people tomorrow <g>), I am
CG>RM> now here.

CG>How do you find the time with all the other conferences you
contribute
CG>to and a moderatorship on NewLife?  Anyway, good to read you here
too.
CG>Are you also getting Apologia? Lots of good discussion on Mormonism
CG>there.

Well, I just got booted off of the entire Intelec network for having the
temerity to post documented proof that, contrary to the net head's
claim, Mormons *were* running me down behind my back (they thought), so
I've got a little more time.  Plus so far James' board hasn't had enough
traffic for me to call more than once or twice a week.

I *thought* I'd selected Apologia here - that was in fact one reason I
started calling Pros Apologian.  But I've gotten nothing from that
conference, so perhaps not.  I'll have to check.

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X My way, your way, the right way, and the Air
Force way.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-17-94 (19:41)             Number: 1907
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-15-94, ROBERT MCKAY wrote to DEBRA BOUEY:

 RM> I have been informed that bravery and foolhardiness are
 RM> indistinguishable. <g>

I've been told that they are one and the same. (g)

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-16-94 (11:40)             Number: 1910
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Robert was saying to Chuck on 15 Mar 94  20:27:02 <<

RM>I *thought* I'd selected Apologia here - that was in fact one reason
I
RM>started calling Pros Apologian.  But I've gotten nothing from that
RM>conference, so perhaps not.  I'll have to check.

It's running 25+ messsages a day, so you're probably not set up
properly.
You'll have to check it.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Abortion:  Killing quietly involves no less guilt.
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-20-94 (00:00)             Number: 2164
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RM> Well, I just got booted off of the entire Intelec network for having
RM> the temerity to post documented proof that, contrary to the net
RM> head's claim, Mormons *were* running me down behind my back (they
RM> thought), so I've got a little more time.  Plus so far James' board
RM> hasn't had enough traffic for me to call more than once or twice a
RM> week.

To some conference hosts, nothing is as inflammatory or off-topic as
the
truth backed with evidence. I almost got kicked off a Fido conference
recently for asking the conference host there too many questions about
the conference rules. He told me my queries were off-topic and that I
would be removed if I didn't stop asking him questions.

RM> I *thought* I'd selected Apologia here - that was in fact one reason
RM> I started calling Pros Apologian.  But I've gotten nothing from that
RM> conference, so perhaps not.  I'll have to check.

The message traffic there is about 100-200 messages per week, so you
would know it if you were getting it. I hope you get it sorted out
soon.
James has been having some interesting discussions there with Mormons.

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X God's redemption is as vast as the sweep of sin. -Van
Til

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-19-94 (23:29)             Number: 2320
From: DEBRA BOUEY                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On (15 Mar 94) Robert McKay wrote to Debra Bouey...

 RM> DB>Brave soul, 'tain't ya'? ;-)
 RM>
 RM> I have been informed that bravery and foolhardiness are
 RM> indistinguishable. <g>

Depends on which foxhole you're in I reckon ;). Brings back
memories of an earlier encounter with some Ruckermaniacs a while
back.

Funny, because I happen to study primarily, albeit it _not_
exclusively, out of the KJV, but for different reasons than the
usual so prevelant today. It's what we had to learn when I was in
boarding school during my "formative" years [have I just "dated" my
education? <laughter>] and I happen to have a penchant for
Elizabethan english.

Debra, 74241.3502@compuserve.com

... To say we will believe nothing unless we understand everything is
poor philosophy!

--- PPoint 1.80
 * Origin: Deb's Point (8:200/403)
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===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-21-94 (05:54)             Number: 2546
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: CHUCK GREEN                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-20-94, CHUCK GREEN wrote to ROBERT MCKAY:

 CG> The message traffic there is about 100-200 messages per week, so
you
 CG> would know it if you were getting it. I hope you get it sorted out
 CG> soon. James has been having some interesting discussions there
with
 CG> Mormons.

I haven't had the opportunity to get back there and get on.  The
Mormons
that come from MORMON don't like me very much. (g)

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-26-94 (00:32)             Number: 3926
From: DANIEL NORTH                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 03-23-94, JAMES WHITE wrote to DANIEL NORTH:

 JW> I wouldn't hurry: Gene Humbert is now moderating MORMON (yes, the
 JW> same Gene Humber that Malin banned last year), and he's already
 JW> bounced James Graves without even a warning.  I won't be far
behind,
 JW> I'm sure.  Gene is a nice guy, but he's completely and totally
 JW> incapable of controlling his emotions, and is not fit to BBS, let
 JW> alone moderate.  It's amazing how MORMON is self-destructing, but
 JW> then again, any enterprise dedicated to defending a lie can't last
 JW> forever.  Look at FARMS!  (:

(chuckle)  I'll last a day's worth of posts. (BG)

In Christ...Dan


 * Freddie 1.2.5 * Yes, God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the
best answer is "No."-Family Circus
---
 * Origin: Christian Central - Garden Grove, Ca. (714)971-1564
(8:3200/207)
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-26-94 (00:00)             Number: 4108
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW> Gene is a nice guy, but he's completely and totally incapable of
JW> controlling his emotions, and is not fit to BBS, let alone moderate.

Isn't that sort of behavior the norm in cyberspace? Of course the
government wants to take over the "Information Superhighway" (where
lies and misinformation in enormous quantity can and do travel at the
speed of light): megalomaniacs feel right at home here. The likes of
you and Richard Bacon over at the Blue Banner (in Rowlett, TX) are the
exceptions.

<<Cynical Mode Toggled OFF>>>

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X there is none that does good, no, not one. (Rom 3:12)

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-26-94 (13:34)             Number: 4109
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: CHUCK GREEN                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Chuck said to James on 26 Mar 94  00:00:00 <<

JW> Gene is a nice guy, but he's completely and totally incapable of
JW> controlling his emotions, and is not fit to BBS, let alone moderate

CG>Isn't that sort of behavior the norm in cyberspace? Of course the
CG>government wants to take over the "Information Superhighway" (where
CG>lies and misinformation in enormous quantity can and do travel at
the
CG>speed of light): megalomaniacs feel right at home here. The likes of
CG>you and Richard Bacon over at the Blue Banner (in Rowlett, TX) are
the
CG>exceptions.

CG><<Cynical Mode Toggled OFF>>>

< chuckle >  Well, I don't know if it's the norm or not.  It seems to
be
the norm for most KJV Only folks I've encountered, that's for certain.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Clara voce cogito
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-27-94 (07:16)             Number: 5465
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW> < chuckle >  Well, I don't know if it's the norm or not.  It seems
JW> to be the norm for most KJV Only folks I've encountered, that's for
JW> certain.

True. Any chance of getting Ralph Stokes to contribute to this
conference?  <g>

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-28-94 (13:09)             Number: 6074
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: CHUCK GREEN                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Chuck was saying to James on 27 Mar 94  07:16:05 <<

JW> < chuckle >  Well, I don't know if it's the norm or not.  It seems
JW> to be the norm for most KJV Only folks I've encountered, that's for
JW> certain.

CG>True. Any chance of getting Ralph Stokes to contribute to this
CG>conference?  <g>

Actually that would be good.  Ralph is a hard-head, but he's normally
fairly calm.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... The man of God loves the Scriptures. -- Psalm 119:97
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-30-94 (13:04)             Number: 8170
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: NEW HERE                       Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW>CG> Any chance of getting Ralph Stokes to contribute to this
JW>CG> conference?

JW> Actually that would be good.  Ralph is a hard-head, but he's
JW> normally fairly calm.

He is pretty calm, come to think of it. He's not one for long threads,
though. He presents his opinion, labels his opponents un-Christian,
then quits.

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
H: 7007/2 0
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-08-94 (02:21)             Number: 1362
From: STEVEN LUKER                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: JACK CHICK                     Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 JW>                                                           There is
 JW> nothing  scholarly, or serious, about the book.  It's like trying
to
 JW> deal with a  Jack Chick comic book.

     Hey, watch it.  Chick draws well.  :->

                    Steven

... Don't argue with he who buys ink by the gallon.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-14-94 (23:34)             Number: 1583
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, James!
    Books for the Greek class are selling pretty well.  Any chance I
might be
able to get back on Pros?
    As for the Riplinger book, a few things of interest:

    1. Gayle quotes Edwin Palmer, stating that "[his NIV] (her quotes)
       shows the great error that is so prevalent today in some orthodox
       circles, namely the error that regeneration depends upon faith
...
       (curious ellipses, Ms. Riplinger has deleted part of the quote)
and
       that in order to be born again man must first accept Jesus as
Savior."

       First off, Palmer was not referring to "his NIV" since the book
she
       is quoting from was written in *1958*, before the NIV was a
twinkle
       in anyone's eye.  Secondly, Palmer is making a statement
concerning
       the sovereignty of God the Holy Spirit, a statement which has
been
       tampered with by Ms. Riplinger... The quote (with the missing
words
       deleted) is: "...namely the error that regeneration depends upon
       faith AND NOT UPON GOD, and that in order to be born again man
must
       first accept Jesus as Savior."  Palmer is stating that
regeneration
       depends upon God, and without God, no man can accept Jesus as
Savior.
       Palmer's statement attacks Arminiamism/Decision Theology - which
       holds that man effects SOMETHING, contributes SOMETHING to his
       salvation...through the "Sinner's Prayer," "sincere repentance,"
       etc.

    2. The "New Age Bible" pictured on page 33...is a King James
Version!
       (I can prove it...I have a copy!)

    3. Patent dishonesty on page 57, in relation to the Lord's Prayer.
       "...which art in heaven..." does not occur at Luke 11 in *any*
       pre-5th century manuscript!  It was the SCRIBES that INSERTED the
       words from Matthew 6:9-13 in an attempt to "harmonize" the
accounts.
       Doesn't it seem strange that she would use the most UNFAMILIAR
       rendering of the Lord's Prayer?  Because if she used Matthew
6:9-13,
       it would destroy her entire argument.  (It does ANYWAY!)

 Of course, these are minor chinks into the paper wall which is
Riplinger's
book.  James, I'd be interested in assisting you in researching her
quotes, if
you ever plan on writing a large-scale refutation.  It really needs to
be
written.  (By the way, did you ever get the ad I sent you for the book,
"King
James Version - Spawn of Satan"?  Hee hee!)

     1. The NT text used by the KJV translators was not the Textus
Receptus,
        which was not published until over 10 years after the KJV was
        translated.

     2. The KJV translators used Stephen's edition of Erasmus' Greek NT
text.

     3. Erasmus' was Catholic, and was opposed to the Reformation.

     4. Erasmus dedicated his Greek NT to Pope Leo X, the Pope who
        condemned and excommunicated Martin Luther, the Reformer!

No WONDER the Catholic dictionaries speak of the King James Version in
such
glowing terms.  Hmmm...the KJV a CATHOLIC corruption?  And what about
old
Charles Taze Russell?  His foundational false doctrines were formulated
using
the KJV.  Not to mention that the KJV is the official translation of the
Mormon Church, Christian Science, the Branch Davidians, the United
Pentecostal
Church, the Way International and the Children of God?  And come to
think of
it, which translation is quoted more often by New Agers than any other
English
translation?  YOU GOT IT - the KJV!  Methinks I could write me OWN
conspiracy
theory!  Who knows, maybe I'll even find Jimmy Hoffa in the process!
Muahahahaaaaa...

Daryl

--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (12:08)             Number: 1679
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to James on 14 Mar 94  23:34:31 <<

DW>    Books for the Greek class are selling pretty well.  Any chance I
mi
DW>able to get back on Pros?

Back on Pros?  Oh, sure, just give me a call and I'll upgrade you.

DW>    2. The "New Age Bible" pictured on page 33...is a King James
Versio
DW>       (I can prove it...I have a copy!)

< chuckle >  I'll have to check that out...

DW>    3. Patent dishonesty on page 57, in relation to the Lord's
Prayer.
DW>       "...which art in heaven..." does not occur at Luke 11 in *any*
DW>       pre-5th century manuscript!  It was the SCRIBES that INSERTED
th
DW>       words from Matthew 6:9-13 in an attempt to "harmonize" the
accou
DW>       Doesn't it seem strange that she would use the most UNFAMILIAR
DW>       rendering of the Lord's Prayer?  Because if she used Matthew
6:9
DW>       it would destroy her entire argument.  (It does ANYWAY!)

Classic Riplingerisms.

DW> Of course, these are minor chinks into the paper wall which is
Ripling
DW>book.  James, I'd be interested in assisting you in researching her
quo
DW>you ever plan on writing a large-scale refutation.  It really needs
to
DW>written.  (By the way, did you ever get the ad I sent you for the
book,
DW>James Version - Spawn of Satan"?  Hee hee!)

Hmm, I think so....can't recall immediately.

DW>     1. The NT text used by the KJV translators was not the Textus
Rece
DW>        which was not published until over 10 years after the KJV was
DW>        translated.

DW>     2. The KJV translators used Stephen's edition of Erasmus' Greek
NT

TR really doesn't differ, though, at least materially.

DW>     3. Erasmus' was Catholic, and was opposed to the Reformation.

DW>     4. Erasmus dedicated his Greek NT to Pope Leo X, the Pope who
DW>        condemned and excommunicated Martin Luther, the Reformer!

All very true.  Riplinger tried to make Erasmus into a great textual
scholar on a program in Detroit recently, even saying that Erasmus used
Luther's German Bible in creating his greek text!  (Woops!)

Of course, that was the same program in which she said I was "rude and
crude" and a "heretic."  Oh well....

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... The truth of Yahweh is everlasting.  --Psalm 117:2
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:47)             Number: 1742
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JW>All very true.  Riplinger tried to make Erasmus into a great textual
JW>scholar on a program in Detroit recently, even saying that Erasmus
used
JW>Luther's German Bible in creating his greek text!  (Woops!)

I have great difficulty with the concept that a great textual scholar
would construct an original text from a translation.  It seems
oxymoronic to me.

___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X Who are you to reply against God?  (Rom. 9:20)

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-16-94 (11:48)             Number: 1912
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Robert was saying to James on 15 Mar 94  20:47:05 <<

JW>All very true.  Riplinger tried to make Erasmus into a great textual
JW>scholar on a program in Detroit recently, even saying that Erasmus
RM>used
JW>Luther's German Bible in creating his greek text!  (Woops!)

RM>I have great difficulty with the concept that a great textual scholar
RM>would construct an original text from a translation.  It seems
RM>oxymoronic to me.

Well, the worst part is that Luther translated the NT portion of the
German
Bible *from* Erasmus' Greek text.  In other words, Riplinger, in her
frantic attempt to find *anything* in her support, turns history on its
head yet once again.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... The True God: Creator of Time Itself.  --Isaiah 41:4, 21-23
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-17-94 (23:22)             Number: 1913
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Re: James White's message to Daryl Westfall,
*     entitled "Riplinger's Book" on 03-15-94  11:18.

 DW>    Books for the Greek class are selling pretty well.  Any chance
I mi
 DW>able to get back on Pros?

 JW> Back on Pros?  Oh, sure, just give me a call and I'll upgrade you.

Thanks!  BTW, the Seow books are in as well.  Had a student pick up one
today.

 JW> TR really doesn't differ, though, at least materially.

If you want to get technical, however, the two texts differ in 287
places
(According to "The Facts on the Textus Receptus and the King James
Version,"
by Dr. Allen A. MacRae and Dr. Robert C. Newman.  Hatfield, PA:
Biblical
School of Theology).

 JW> All very true.  Riplinger tried to make Erasmus into a great
textual
 JW> scholar on a program in Detroit recently, even saying that Erasmus
 JW> used Luther's German Bible in creating his greek text!  (Woops!)

Do *you* have that on *tape?*  I LOVE IT!  HEE HEE!

 JW> Of course, that was the same program in which she said I was "rude
and
 JW> crude" and a "heretic."  Oh well....

If you're a heretic and she's orthodox, then we're ALL in trouble.

By the way, that reminds me.  "GOD" paid us a visit at the store today.
 Or
at least that's who he said he was.  He stopped in to look at a
Dake's
Annotated Reference Bible.  He stated that the Epistle of James was
actually
written by FOUR people (including the Old Testament Jacob), and what
Jesus
was writing on the ground (John 8:6) was actually a request to the
Father
for an answer to the accusations of the scribes and Pharisees.  (You
see,
Jesus didn't have a clue as to what to say, and he had to bug "Dad" for
the
answer.)  Also, he said that the world will end in the year 2004, since
it
represents 2000 years since the Epistle to the Romans was written (A.D.
4?)
Then, when my head was turned, he tried to steal the Dake's by
replacing the
Bible in the box with his own and then closing the cover.)  When this
was
discovered, he then complained that he should get the Bible for free
since
HE WROTE IT, and then stormed off.  (I didn't get the chance to ask him
what
HE needed with a Bible anyway, being "God" and all, especially one with
study notes.)  I DID ponder the possibility of passing the info along
to Dake
Bible Sales for a great new slogan: "DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE -
The
Bible God would use if he could afford it."

Daryl

... Smote any key to continueth.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-17-94 (23:22)             Number: 1915
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Re: Robert Mckay's message to James White,
*     entitled "Riplinger's Book" on 03-16-94  07:28.

 RM> I have great difficulty with the concept that a great textual
scholar
 RM> would construct an original text from a translation.  It seems
 RM> oxymoronic to me.

Hold the "oxy" and you've got an agreement here!

Ciao!
Daryl


... To understand is to complicate.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-18-94 (12:10)             Number: 1979
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to James on 17 Mar 94  23:22:14 <<

 JW> TR really doesn't differ, though, at least materially.

DW>If you want to get technical, however, the two texts differ in 287
plac
DW>(According to "The Facts on the Textus Receptus and the King James
DW>Version,"
DW>by Dr. Allen A. MacRae and Dr. Robert C. Newman.  Hatfield, PA:
Biblica
DW>School of Theology).

Is a list provided in that text?  I'd like to see some.

 JW> All very true.  Riplinger tried to make Erasmus into a great textu
 JW> scholar on a program in Detroit recently, even saying that Erasmus
 JW> used Luther's German Bible in creating his greek text!  (Woops!)

DW>Do *you* have that on *tape?*  I LOVE IT!  HEE HEE!

Yup, sure do.  BTW, do you have a spare copy of NABV that the ministry
could get for a steal?  Kevin Johnson is helping me do some research
for a
fuller response to the book.

DW>By the way, that reminds me.  "GOD" paid us a visit at the store
today.
DW>at least that's who he said he was.  He stopped in to look at a
Dake's
DW>Annotated Reference Bible.  He stated that the Epistle of James was
DW>actually
DW>written by FOUR people (including the Old Testament Jacob), and what
DW>Jesus
DW>was writing on the ground (John 8:6) was actually a request to the
Fath
DW>for an answer to the accusations of the scribes and Pharisees.  (You
se
DW>Jesus didn't have a clue as to what to say, and he had to bug "Dad"
for
DW>answer.)  Also, he said that the world will end in the year 2004,
since
DW>represents 2000 years since the Epistle to the Romans was written
(A.D.

Jeff Niell shared similar stories from his years at Berean.  It must be
a
fascinating job!  (:

DW>Then, when my head was turned, he tried to steal the Dake's by
replacin
DW>the
DW>Bible in the box with his own and then closing the cover.)  When
this w
DW>discovered, he then complained that he should get the Bible for free
si
DW>HE WROTE IT, and then stormed off.  (I didn't get the chance to ask
him
DW>what
DW>HE needed with a Bible anyway, being "God" and all, especially one
with
DW>study notes.)  I DID ponder the possibility of passing the info
along t
DW>Bible Sales for a great new slogan: "DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE
DW>BIBLE - The
DW>Bible God would use if he could afford it."

< ROFL >  You ought to see about putting God in jail.  (:

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... The Spirit always speaks in harmony with the Word.
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-18-94 (19:36)             Number: 2165
From: CHUCK GREEN                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DW> I DID ponder the possibility of passing the info along to Dake Bible
DW> Sales for a great new slogan: "DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE -
DW> The Bible God would use if he could afford it."

I saw an ad for the Ryrie Study Bible about ten years ago or so that
went something like this: "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the
new leather-bound Ryrie Study Bible will last almost forever." It was
accompanied by a first person account with photo of a Ryrie falling out

of a car travelling at high speed. It seems that when the RSB was
retrieved it was as good as new.

___
 X RM 1.3 00231 X Draw me, unwilling, to make me willing. -Bernard

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith
(8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-20-94 (23:53)             Number: 2166
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Re: James White's message to Daryl Westfall,
*     entitled "Re: Riplinger's Book" on 03-18-94  11:54.

 >> Daryl was saying to James on 17 Mar 94  23:22:14 <<

 JW> Is a list provided in that text?  I'd like to see some.

The article does not; however, I think the authors might have a list.
I'm
not sure if the address in the article is still current.  Would you
like it?

 DW>Do *you* have that on *tape?*  I LOVE IT!  HEE HEE!

 JW> Yup, sure do.  BTW, do you have a spare copy of NABV that the
ministry
 JW> could get for a steal?  Kevin Johnson is helping me do some
research
 JW> for a  fuller response to the book.

I offered Kevin my copy to borrow.  But I suggested that he might call
Chick
and request a review copy.  (That's how I got mine.)

 JW> Jeff Niell shared similar stories from his years at Berean.  It
must
 JW> be a  fascinating job!  (:

It's not a job I would wish on any Christian.

 JW> < ROFL >  You ought to see about putting God in jail.  (:

BTW, the next day I found that the Bible had been stolen (the box was
lying
in another part of the store, empty).  But no one had seen the man in
the
store at all that day.  Hmmmm...

... "Q" - As fictional as the "Jesus" of the "scholars" that support it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-21-94 (11:26)             Number: 2397
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to James on 20 Mar 94  23:53:54 <<

 JW> Is a list provided in that text?  I'd like to see some.

DW>The article does not; however, I think the authors might have a
list.
DW>not sure if the address in the article is still current.  Would you
lik

Yes, I should track it down.

 DW>Do *you* have that on *tape?*  I LOVE IT!  HEE HEE!

 JW>Yup, sure do.  BTW, do you have a spare copy of NABV that the
ministry
 JW>could get for a steal?  Kevin Johnson is helping me do some resear
 JW>for a  fuller response to the book.

DW>I offered Kevin my copy to borrow.  But I suggested that he might
call
DW>and request a review copy.  (That's how I got mine.)

< chuckle >  Review copy.  That's rich.  (:

 JW> Jeff Niell shared similar stories from his years at Berean.  It mu
 JW> be a  fascinating job!  (:

DW>It's not a job I would wish on any Christian.

Like working in a church I imagine.

 JW> < ROFL >  You ought to see about putting God in jail.  (:

DW>BTW, the next day I found that the Bible had been stolen (the box
was l
DW>in another part of the store, empty).  But no one had seen the man
in t
DW>store at all that day.  Hmmmm...

Gracious.  I had someone steal my Thompson Chain NIV from the hospital
last
year.  Who in the world would steal a Bible?  Yeah, I know: they must
need
it more than me, and all that.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Threw my root beer at Clinton; it was a draft; he dodged it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-22-94 (10:20)             Number: 2653
From: LYNDA                        Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER'S BOOK               Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -=> Quoting Daryl Westfall to James White <=-

 DW> BTW, the next day I found that the Bible had been stolen (the box
was
 DW> lying in another part of the store, empty).  But no one had seen
the
 DW> man in the store at all that day.  Hmmmm...

(Twilight Zone theme music in the background)  Gee, maybe he
WAS....nahhhh!
(G)

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-15-94 (20:45)             Number: 1741
From: ROBERT MCKAY                 Refer#: NONE
  To: ALL                           Recvd: NO  
Subj: WHY I SWITCHED                 Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I switched some years ago from the KVJ to the NKJV.  There were a number
of reasons for the switch, which was made only after a great deal of
prayer and a reading of the NKJV to see 1) how it read (I'm an
inveterate reader and a writer and the quality of the English is
important to me), and 2) how God used it in speaking to me.  Briefly, I
found that,  1) while I have no trouble with 1611 English, the NKJV is
simply much more proper in terms of twentieth century vocabulary and
grammar; and 2) God used (and is using since the switch) the NKJV as
much as He had the KJV.

But what really broke this camel's back was the NKJV rendering of Isaiah
9:5.  In the KJV this verse reads:

          For every battle of the warrior [is] with confused
          noise, and garments rolled in blood; but [this]
          shall be with burning [and] fuel of fire.

In the NKJV, however, it is rendered:

          For every warrior's sandal
            from the noisy battle,
          And garments rolled in blood,
          Will be used for burning [and]
            fuel of fire.

This is clearly a significant different.  The KJV says "confused noise"
while the NKJV has it as "noisy battle."  I immediately thought that the
NKJV had made a translation error.  But when I consulted my Strong's
Hebrew dictionary, lo and behold! it was the KJV which had erred.

At this point I decided that I wouldn't be able to catch every
translation error - I simply didn't have the time.  It behooved me,
therefore, to switch to a version that was more accurate in its
renderings, and I did so.

This is not to say that the KJV's translators were malicious in their
erroneous renderings.  They did not, however, have the amount of
information that we do today, and they were moreover human and prone to
error.  And since there is not one Biblical verse that says any
translation, much less the KJV specifically, partakes of the exact same
kind and degree of inspiration that inhered in the original autographs,
it is foolish to think that in instances such as this the KJV is right,
and the original text and modern versions are wrong together.

Robert  -+-
         |
Internet address robert.mckay@thehub.com
___
 X QMPro 1.01 11-1111 X I have a life - I'm a Star Trek fanatic.
:+{>

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-16-94 (11:42)             Number: 1911
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: ROBERT MCKAY                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: WHY I SWITCHED                 Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Robert was saying to All on 15 Mar 94  20:45:04 <<

RM>I switched some years ago from the KVJ to the NKJV.

Any particular reason why you decided to stick with a translation based
upon a "less modern" text?  I.e., not the NASB or NIV?

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Do you not know?  There is only one eternal God.  --Isaiah 40:21-26
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-17-94 (23:22)             Number: 1916
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: ALL                           Recvd: NO  
Subj: FACTS ON TR AND KJV            Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: How did the term "textus receptus" originate?

A: It originated through a highly exaggerated statement - actually a
publisher's blurb - in the preface to the second edition of the Greek
New
Testament that was published in Holland in 1633 by the Elzevir
Brothers.
In this Latin preface they called their book "the text which is now
received by all, in which we give nothing changed or corrupted." This
is how this latin term textus receptus (text received) came to be
applied
to a particular text of the Greek New Testament. On the European
continent,
aside from Great Britain, the first Elzevir edition (published 1624)
was
for a long time the standard edition of the Greek New Testament.


Q: Did the King James translators use their "textus receptus" as the
basis
for their translation?

A: NO. Even the first Elzevir edition was not published until 13 years
after the date of the KJV.


Q: What was the Greek text on which the KJV New Testament was based?

A: It was based on the third edition of the Greek New Testament, issued
by
the Parisian publisher Stephanus (Latinized form of Estienne) in 1550.


Q: Was the text of Stephanus on which the King James Version was based
identical with the later "textus receptus"?

A: NO. The two differed in 287 places.


Q: How many Greek manuscripts agreed exactly with the edition published
by Stephanus, and how many agree exactly with the edition published by
Elzevir?

A: There is no Greek manuscript that agrees exactly with either of
these.
Both of them are conflate texts.


Q: Were the scholars who prepared the King James Version convinced that
their text was absolutely correct?

A: NO. They recognized the possibility of copyists' errors, and showed
this by making marginal notes to variant readings at 13 places. For
instance, in Luke 17:36 their marginal note reads: "This 36th verse is
wanting in most of the Greek copies." In Acts 25:6, where their text
reads:
"When he had tarried among them more than ten days," they inserted the
following marginal note: "Or, as some copies read, no more than eight
or
ten days."


Q: What was the source of most of the readings found both in the
edition
of Stephanus and in that of Elzevir?

A: Most of the readings in both of these follow the edition of the
Greek
New Testament prepared by Erasmus, the great enemy of Martin Luther,
and
published in 1516, the year before the Reformation began.


Q: How many manuscripts agree exactly with Erasmus' edition of the
Greek
New Testament?

A: There is no Greek manuscript that agrees exactly with it. Erasmus
made
it by combining the readings of several manuscripts, none of them
earlier
than the tenth century A.D., and most of them still later. In some
parts
of the New Testament he had no manuscript at all, but simply translated
from the Latin Bible.

Q: To whom was the Greek New Testament prepared by Erasmus dedicated?

A: It was dedicated to Pope Leo X, the Pope who later condemned Luther
and
the Reformation.  It is believed that this Pope gave Erasmus' publisher
the
exclusive right to publish the Greek New Testament for a period of time.


Q: Have better manuscripts been discovered than those on which the
textus
receptus was based?

A: During the three and one-half centuries since the King James Version
was
made dozens of manuscripts have been found that were copied many
centuries
earlier than any manuscript used by Erasmus. The manuscripts he used
were
copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies. When material
is
copied a number of times by hand, extra words and phrases generally
find
their way into the text in the course of copying and occasionally the
eye
of a copyist may jump from one word or phrase to a similar one, and
thus
omit something or perhaps copy it twice.


Q: Does this mean that the textus receptus is a harmful text?

A: The additions in the textus receptus do not contain any idea that is
not
taught elsewhere in the New Testament in parts that agree with the
earlier
manuscripts. The differences consist mainly of repetition or ideas
already
contained elsewhere in the Scripture.


Q: Then why bother to hunt for early manuscripts? Why not simply follow
the
textus receptus?

A: God inspired the manuscripts that came from the hands of the
original
writers. It is impossible to copy a book of any length without making
some
mistakes. In the case of the New Testament we have more evidence for
determining the text of the original writers than for any other book
from
ancient times. While there is rarely anything harmful in the textus
receptus, if we truly wish to know God's Word, to base our text, as far
as
possible, on early manuscripts.


Q: What IS the situation among early New Testament manuscripts?

A: 95% of the known Greek New Testament manuscripts were copied after
A.D.
700, more than six centuries after the New Testament was written. Among
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-18-94 (12:16)             Number: 1981
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: FACTS ON TR AND KJV            Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to All on 17 Mar 94  23:22:20 <<
DW>Q: How did the term "textus receptus" originate?

< etc. >  Excellent stuff.  However the post was MONDO long.  Could you
break her up into 100 line segments?  And, could you please upload this
as
a text file to Pros?  I'd like to make it available.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... You were once "intra-uterine matter."
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-19-94 (07:58)             Number: 1989
From: BERNIE WILT                  Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: FACTS ON TR AND KJV            Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -=> James White wrote to Daryl Westfall on 03-18-94  16:09 <=-

 >> Daryl was saying to All on 17 Mar 94  23:22:20 <<
 DW>Q: How did the term "textus receptus" originate?

 JW> < etc. >  Excellent stuff.  However the post was MONDO long.  Could
 JW> you  break her up into 100 line segments?  And, could you please
upload
 JW> this as  a text file to Pros?  I'd like to make it available.

Yeah, the jet it over to me :)

~Bernie Wilt~



___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
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SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-20-94 (23:53)             Number: 2167
From: DARYL WESTFALL               Refer#: NONE
  To: JAMES WHITE                   Recvd: NO  
Subj: FACTS ON TR AND KJV            Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Re: James White's message to Daryl Westfall,
*     entitled "Facts on TR and KJV" on 03-18-94  11:54.

 JW> < etc. >  Excellent stuff.  However the post was MONDO long.  Could
 JW> you  break her up into 100 line segments?  And, could you please
upload
 JW> this as  a text file to Pros?  I'd like to make it available.

Can do.

(BTW: I need the phone number again.  I lost it.  *looking sheepish*)

Daryl

... Baby: Unwritten history; Unfathomed mystery!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
 * Origin: Cross Roads BBS, Phoenix, Az. (602)482-8577 (8:1015/50)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-21-94 (11:27)             Number: 2398
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: DARYL WESTFALL                Recvd: NO  
Subj: FACTS ON TR AND KJV            Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Daryl was saying to James on 20 Mar 94  23:53:55 <<

DW>* Re: James White's message to Daryl Westfall,
DW>*     entitled "Facts on TR and KJV" on 03-18-94  11:54.

 JW> < etc. >  Excellent stuff.  However the post was MONDO long.  Coul
 JW> you  break her up into 100 line segments?  And, could you please
DW>upload
 JW> this as  a text file to Pros?  I'd like to make it available.

DW>Can do.

DW>(BTW: I need the phone number again.  I lost it.  *looking sheepish*)

Oops.  973-3739.

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Zonked by Grace
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-23-94 (07:57)             Number: 3089
From: STEVEN LUKER                 Refer#: NONE
  To: ALL                           Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER                      Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     I am very familiar with Ruckman.  However, who is Riplinger?  What
does he teach?  Where does he come from?  How much influence does he
have?
Just tell me anything you think is relevant.
                    Steven




... King James: The Official Bible Version of Christian Science.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
===========================================================================
 BBS: Christian Central
Date: 03-23-94 (11:53)             Number: 3090
From: JAMES WHITE                  Refer#: NONE
  To: STEVEN LUKER                  Recvd: NO  
Subj: RIPLINGER                      Conf: (170) E-kjv Ccn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Steven was saying to All on 23 Mar 94  07:57:06 <<

SL>     I am very familiar with Ruckman.  However, who is Riplinger?
What
SL>does he teach?  Where does he come from?  How much influence does he
SL>have?
SL>Just tell me anything you think is relevant.

It's Gayle Riplinger, a she, not a he (she has lots of degrees in home
economics and interior design).  She's the author of the single worst
book
published in 1993, _New Age Bible Versions_ (ultra KJV-Only).

James>>>
 * Wave Rider 1.10 # 155 *
... Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.  --1 Cor. 10:31
--- Blue Wave/Max v1.10 [NR]
 * Origin: Pros Apologian: Toward a Defense of the Faith (8:7007/2.0)
SEEN-BY: 1015/0 50 3200/207 7007/0 2
