
commentary on a series of BBS message discussions about the Temple of Set, the
current incarnation of Anton LaVey's Church of Satan.  the commentator is a 
member of the Temple.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have not seen any of the 1990 correspondence between Tim Maroney and Dr.
Aquino, nor do I have any interest in seeing it. I will try to avoid
commenting on the alleged abuses or failings of language, protocol, or
courtesy from either side within that correspondence.

(For those who may need help identifying this message thread, Diane has asked
some specific questions concerning Tim Maroney's 11/90 "The Nazi Trapezoid"
[which purports to identify leanings toward Nazi sympathy within the Temple of
Set] and Dr. Aquino's response to same.  This is my response, hoping to answer
those questions. Both original documents have been re-posted in this echo in
the past month, and both are available in the "TOS" file section of Northern
Lights BBS and in file sections of various other BBS nodes.)

I'm also going to try to avoid commenting on the personal comments made by
anyone concerning anyone else anywhere in this thread -- I find only two
justifications for my spending so much time this week examining the documents
and comments concerning same, material which is at best peripheral to my own
personal Xeper:

a) You have indicated that you want to be able to present a clear argument
that Satanism is not inherently fascist, and you want my assistance in proving
that the Temple of Set is not fascist, so you can use it to support your
argument. I think this is a worthy project.

b) If the Temple presents me with another opportunity to exercise my
Toastmasters training on their behalf, and if the same sorts of questions are
asked of me (as they likely will be if your activities garner publicity), I
had better be prepared.

So I'm going to concentrate strictly on the question of fascism, the supposed
appearance of same, and the actuality of non-fascism.

Before I start, a reminder:  The following statements are my personal
descriptions of the positions and points of view of Setians, each of them an
individual.  The Temple of Set as an organization has no opinion or point of
view of its own

concerning fascism -- that topic is simply outside the Temple's realm of
concern.  To my knowledge there has never been a formal policy made nor formal
discussion concerning the issues you ask about.  Any opinion, position, or
point of view is that of individuals, not of the organization.

-------

In your 1/25 post to me, you suggest that the question, "What does Aquino
agree with and disagree with about Nazi ideology (repeat: Nazi *ideology*, not
just Nazi practices)?" is a reasonable question. I would agree. You go on to
wonder why Dr. Aquino "felt he had to duck this question."

I find he answered several elements of the question.  However, those answers
may have been too general to answer the questions you have.

In Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 response, as quoted in part 2 of your 1/25 post to
me, Dr. Aquino says, "I have always deplored its [Naziism's] premises,
policies, and activities which resulted in savagery and misery to a great many
people." He deplores its premises (ideology) and its policies (practices)
which result in savagery and misery.

What are the specifics not covered in that statement that you need
clarification on? What are the elements of Nazi ideology that concern you
which did not "result in savagery and misery to a great many people"?

For those who may not know the precise definitions, my dictionary defines
ideology as: "1: visionary theorizing.  2a: a systematic body of concepts,
esp. about human life or culture. 2b: a manner or the content of thinking
characteristic of an individual, group, or culture. 2c: the integrated
assertions, theories, and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program."

Each of the variations of definition 2 apply to this discussion.

My dictionary defines Naziism as, "the body of political and economic
doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers'
party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of
government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to
be racially superior, and supremacy of the fuhrer."

I'm not Dr. Aquino, but I've been reading his works for well over a decade 
now, and I've heard some of his discussions on these and related topics, and I 
believe I can accurately state the following:

1) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the totalitarian principle 
of government. While he recognizes that there are problems in every form of 
democracy used to date, democracy in general results in better governments and
better organizations than does totalitarianism.

In evidence of this, I point to the organization of the Temple of Set (his 
design), where a) there are multiple checks and balances designed to ensure 
that no single person wields totalitarian power, b) all members of the
Priesthood have an equal vote concerning the bylaws of the organization, and
c) a democratic vote of the Council of Nine is powerful enough to remove any
officer from power and to expel any member from the organization, including
the High Priest.

2) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the state control of all 
industry. While Dr. Aquino is certainly no captain of industry (he prefers to
earn his livelihood within academia), I've never heard him express any
dissatisfaction with capitalism or the free market system, other than the
generally recognized fact that people can be financially hurt in a
non-socialist state.

Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would be the case if he 
supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians 
should be able to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society.

3) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the predominance of groups 
assumed to be racially superior. I have always seen Dr. Aquino treat people of
various races as comparative equals, judging people not by race, but by
personal qualities under the control of the individual (their education, their
application of their native intelligence, their sociability, their honor,
their dedication, etc).

4) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the supremacy of the fuhrer.
There were some things that Hitler said or wrote which are worth studying, but
there were also many, many things said, written, and done by Hitler which are
reprehensible. Setians are fond of saying they worship none but their own 
higher Selves. Dr. Aquino lives that ideal.

Those are the four ideologies of Naziism listed in my dictionary. If there are 
other ideologies you wonder about, you'll need to ask about them specifically.

Since Naziism and fascism are so closely related, and since Dr. Aquino and the 
Temple of Set have been accused of being fascist, let me explore that topic
also.

Fascism -- 1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation 
and race above the individual, and that stands for a centralized autocratic 
government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social
regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.  2: a tendency toward
or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

1) Dr. Aquino believes in and exalts the individual over the nation and race.  
This is central to the concept of Xeper and the Left Hand Path.  This concept 
is even more important than the Temple of Set -- as High Priest he as seen 
many individual initiates pleasantly leave the Temple of Set for reasons of 
their own, and has later welcomed back several of those.  Such is not the
behavior of a fascist.

2) Dr. Aquino does not believe in a centralized autocratic government headed
by a dictatorial leader.  He believes in the American form of democracy (while
admitting that it has its problems), and he has designed the Temple's
organization and bylaws to prevent any dictatorial leader from gaining
absolute control.

3) Dr. Aquino does not believe in social regimentation nor forcible 
suppression of opposition.  Instead he welcomes diversity within the Temple of 
Set, and has not only tolerated but welcomed intelligent forms of opposition 
within the Temple of Set.

-----

You quote Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 statement, "To the extent the Order is 
interested in Nazi Germany, it is essentially with regard to the very 
extensive research into occultism conducted by the Ahnenerbe and other groups 
& individuals during that period." You then go on to claim, "As the Order of
the Trapezoid statement makes clear, there is much more to its interest in
Nazism than this. Aquino does not address any of the specific issues raised in
Tim's article, which I will highlight in a later message to you."  (I haven't
received same, as far as I know.)

Reading through the Order of the Trapezoid statement, I find that the 
introduction concentrates on German Romanticism, and the Order's statement
doesn't even mention the Third Reich until the eighth paragraph. The Third
Reich and the Nazi influence is then discussed and dismissed in six 
paragraphs. The Third Reich and Nazi influence occupies less than one page in 
the five-page document.

Reading those six paragraphs, I find myself unable to support your claim that 
"there is much more to its interest in Nazism than this."

I do find the 1939 quote from Herman Rauschning, which said, "This irrational 
element in National Socialism is the actual source of its strength. It is the 
reliance on it that accounts for its 'sleepwalker's immunity' in the face of
one practical problem after another. It explains why it was possible for
National Socialism to attain power almost without the slightest tangible idea
of what it was going to do. ..."

Yes, the study of the social dynamics which are mentioned are of interest, but 
I fail to see the connection between those social dynamics and Naziism
... those social dynamics apply to all fanatical movements which quickly rise
to power (or at least struggle for it). Do you disagree?

If you can point out to me where you find this interest in Naziism rather than 
German Romanticism, perhaps I'll be better able to answer your question. Until 
then, I just don't see the source of your concern.

-----

In your 1/18 reply to Triple Six's 1/13 message to you, you quote his 
statement, "Dr. Aquino states that the 'third Reich's dynamism got out of 
hand, leading it to embark on irrational and destructive foreign
invasions...'" and Triple Six's commentary, and you respond, "Yes, but can't
you see that Aquino's statement *is* rather puzzling? Aquino tries to
distinguish between the Third Reich's "dynamism and life-worship" on the one
hand, and its racism and "crude xenophobia" on the other hand. But what else
was Nazism's "dynamism and life-worship" based on, besides racism?"

As indicated in the Order of the Trapezoid's statement, that dynamism and life 
worship was founded in a historical philosophy of German Romanticism, which
significantly predates Naziism. I believe you'll find that verified in the
books listed in that reading list section (though since I haven't read them, I
can't verify that from my own research - - like you I'm not interested in the
topic myself). It's my impression that racism is not a significant part of the
more historical German traditions, at least not any more than you'll find
/anywhere/ in the ancient world up through the 1800's.

Moving on to Tim's 11/11/90 "The Nazi Trapezoid" itself, Tim Maroney opens his 
discussion of the supposed Nazi sympathy within the Temple of Set with, "But 
unsettling questions remain concerning this organization. It harbors a 
subgroup, the Order of the Trapezoid, which is dedicated to Nazi occultism. 
Aquino is known to have participated in black magical rituals at Wewelsburg 
Castle, set up as a place of occult working for the SS by Heinrich Himmler. 
Aquino counts Nazi occultism as one of his chief interests, and the heraldry
and symbolism of the SS is one of his favorite topics of discussion. These
facts would seem to indicate, at least on the face of them, that Aquino is
sympathetic to Nazism."

1) The Temple of Set also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of the Vampyre. No, 
this group doesn't wander the streets at night and suck the blood out of 
homeless victims, but rather (quoting from its statement), "Members of this
Order will strive to bring to Life those qualities and aspects of our
potential which have long been considered to be dead, undead, or just plain
latent."

It also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of Shuti, which examines (among other 
things) Opposites and Extremes. In its statement (which I just uploaded to 
Northern Lights) I find, "One obsolete philosophy of magic was that to achieve
balance, the magician has to experience and participate in the extremes (often
the extremes of good and evil)." No, this group doesn't advocate the pursuit
of evil and the execution of horrors, "but the Initiate of Shuti will
recognize and work with any and all opposites / extremes, and with the ranges
and balances between them, whenever and however appropriate."

It also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of the Scarab.  Quoting from its 
statement, "This Order directly addresses the question of *responsible* Setian 
magic. ... Major emphasis is placed on personal aims, wakefulness, Becoming, 
and the use of Lesser and Greater Black Magic with accountability."

There is a wide diversity of activity within the Temple of Set (these are but 
four of the eleven Orders found within the Temple of Set as of today). Many of 
the activities pursued within the Temple of Set are in direct opposition to 
Nazi ideas and policies. To indicate that there is Nazi sympathy because one
group looks at the Nazi use of occultism seems to be jumping to a conclusion
on insufficient information.

2) The Order of the Trapezoid is *not* "dedicated" to Nazi occultism. That is 
just one of the areas which they explore, and my impression (from reading 
their newsletter and talking to their members, since I myself am not a member
of that Order) is that Nazi occultism is a fairly minor aspect of the Order.
If the Order of the Trapezoid is "dedicated" to anything, that dedication is
found in the statement,

"The O.Tr. is an Order of knighthood characterized by strict personal honor 
and faithfulness to the quest for the Grail. The Order is a *knighthood* in 
that its members are pledged to the traditional chivalric virtues as 
appropriate to each situation encountered. By *honor* is meant a sense of
justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal comfort, convenience, or
advantage. This honor is known by one's *faithfulness* to the Quest of the
Grail, which is the self, soul, or psyche made perfect through conscious
refinement and exercise of the Will."

Let me repeat that sentence which expands on the Order's concept of honor: "By 
*honor* is meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to
personal comfort, convenience, or advantage."

In my opinion that statement directly and absolutely disproves Tim's
expectation of fascism.

3) Aquino is known to have participated in black magical rituals at Wewelsburg 
Castle, set up as a place of occult working for the SS by Heinrich Himmler. As 
I've pointed out in other posts on this topic, simply using a site does not 
imply the condoning of any activity which may have occurred previously at that
site. Oz Tech suggested some very good reasons for the use of that site in her
1990 post (attached to Dr. Aquino's response), as I did in my 1/20 message to
you.

From recent posts I gather that Bobby Meizer and Tim Maroney disagree with me 
on this point.  I can understand why they disagree, but on reviewing my 
opinions on this matter I stand by my comments.


4) "Aquino counts Nazi occultism as one of his chief interests, and the 
heraldry and symbolism of the SS is one of his favorite topics of discussion."

How does one determine someone's "chief interests" and "favorite topics of 
discussion"? Yes, Dr. Aquino knows quite a bit about these topics, as he does
about many, many, many topics (is my jealousy showing, or is it camouflaged by
your green terminal screen?). He writes and talks about these topics as well
as he does about many other topics.

But, in over a decade of reading his writings, I have not seen any special 
concentration in this area. In several years of attending social and other 
gatherings with Dr.  Aquino, I have not found him to launch into discussions
about these topics in preference to other topics. I therefore offer that Tim's
claims here seem to be a projection of Tim's expectations, and an
exaggeration, rather than fact.

5) "These facts would seem to indicate, at least on the face of them, that 
Aquino is sympathetic to Nazism." I can see how someone who is overly
sensitive to the possibilities of covert racism (as you suggest might be Tim's
case) can make such an interpretation. But I suggest that an open minded
inquirer, with a little bit of actual information (as I present above), will
see that there is not sufficient information to reach that conclusion.

Indeed, I stand by my own personal knowledge of Dr. Aquino, and the definition 
of Naziism quoted from the dictionary above, to state simply that Dr. Aquino 
is *not* sympathetic to Naziism as an ideology, as a political party, as a
governmental force, etc. He is interested in their occult studies, and he is
interested in studying just how they obtained so much power so rapidly. That
is not an indication of sympathy.

-----

Let me add one more "fact" here.  You mention in another post of yours how the
presence of one (or I suppose even a few) black Priests would not disprove
Tim's claims of apparent racism.  However, I believe there is a similar
example which does provide a strong proof against Tim's claim of fascism, or
at least the implied claim of antisemitism.

Dr. Aquino, as High Priest, I believe in 1989, appointed a IV* Magister Templi 
of Jewish descent as Chairman of the Council of Nine.  The Chairman of the
Council of Nine is a post with a one-year term of office, and Dr. Aquino has
twice reappointed this "Jew" to this highest of offices.  In each case, the
Council of Nine overwhelmingly ratified these appointments.

The Chairman of the Council of Nine holds the mundane office of the Chairman 
of the Board of Directors of the Temple of Set, Inc.  That individual is the 
one person who can start the process of deposing the High Priest from office,
and the Chairman of the Council of Nine is the one person who appoints a new 
High Priest in the event of any vacancy in that office.  The Chairman of the 
Council of Nine is also responsible for appointing the Treasurer, Executive 
Director, and all members of the Council of Nine whenever there are any 
vacancies.

I think you'll agree that this is not an example of "tokenism".  Instead, this 
action proves that Dr. Aquino and the highest Initiates of the Temple of Set 
do not discriminate against Setians of Jewish background.  (Let me point out 
that the initial appointment to that office predates Tim's accusations and his 
"The Nazi Trapezoid".)

-----

Tim goes on to quote the Order of Trapezoid statement:

"Crucial also to German Romanticism were the concepts of dynamism_ and
life-worship_. The former term represents an urge towards constant movement
and evolution, whether intellectual, artistic, or social. [...] The uncanny
attraction of the Third Reich - Nazi Germany - lies in the fact that it
endorsed and practiced both dynamism and life-worship without restraint and to
a world-shaking degree of success."

Normally I wouldn't argue too much with the text someone feels is unimportant
and therefore condenses into "[...]" -- but I feel that here Tim left out a
very important paragraph. The statement actually reads,

"Crucial also to German Romanticism were the concepts of /dynamism/ and 
/life-worship/. The former term represents an urge towards constant movement
and evolution, whether intellectual, artistic, or social. [...]

"German Romantic life-worship was not love and respect for the phenomenon of 
life per se, but rather a compulsion to exercise one's own life -- to 'really 
live' rather than to simply exist.  Again this is commendable, but as with 
dynamism it can be dangerous in excess -- when one's 'rage to live' interrupts
and consumes the lives of others.

"The uncanny attraction of the Third Reich - Nazi Germany - lies in the fact 
that it endorsed and practiced both dynamism and life-worship without 
restraint and to a world-shaking degree of success."

In my opinion, the three paragraphs in succession point to Dr. Aquino's 
opinion that the Third Reich took the traditional German philosophies too far. 
That middle paragraph (which Tim chose not to quote) points to Dr.  Aquino's
disagreement with the excesses of German Romanticism, even without the
influence of Naziism. Taking that into account, his statements disagreeing
with the "excesses" of Naziism can be seen to be disagreements, not apologies
as Tim seems to suggest.

-----

Tim then goes into a rather lengthy examination of section 14 of the Temple's 
reading list, attempting to demonstrate Nazi sympathies through Dr. Aquino's 
comments concerning the books listed there. In my opinion the case is not 
made, and I value my time too much to go through and dispute those statements. 
But then I cheated -- I know the man and understand what he feels and thinks a 
bit better than Tim Maroney does.

----- You asked me to give you some feedback concerning your 1/25 3-part 
message to Triple Six.

You state to Triple Six, "My interest is not "feigned", as you seemed to imply 
on January 19, but my interest *is* indirect. That is, what you perceive as my
"laziness" is the fact that I don't (at the present time, at least) have any
deep interest in the topic of Nazi occultism itself, but only in the question
of how non-Nazi sympathizers relate to it."

The problem you face in getting Setians on the echoes to discuss this topic in 
the detail you so obviously desire is that we don't have any deep interest in 
the topic either, not in Nazi occultism, nor even in how non-Nazi sympathizers
relate to it. I haven't seen any members of the Order of the Trapezoid
participating in any on-going discussion in any of these echoes. The brevity
and shallowness of the responses you've gotten is indicative of our general
lack of interest.

(I've been a member of the Temple of Set since well before the founding of the 
Order of the Trapezoid, and I'm interested in some of the things they do, but 
not enough to belong to that Order. They, apparently, are either not watching
the echoes or are too busy doing whatever they're doing to respond to you.)

"It greatly helps my defense of Satanism to be able to point to ToS as an 
example of a prominent Satanic organization which is *not* fascistic (despite 
my philosophical disagreements with ToS on other matters).

"Unfortunately, it's a common perception among occultists that ToS too is a
bunch of neo-fascists and/or Nazi sympathizers."

Yes, I've found that perception to be fairly common.  However, it's a 
perception which I've also found fairly easy to disperse once I start talking 
to or corresponding with people. Of course, I have the benefit of actually 
being a member of the Temple, and being able to talk from personal experience.
You don't have that benefit, and so I can see where you would need some more
impersonal evidence. I hope this response helps.

"This idea isn't just 'Tim's paranoia'; it is a view shared by *many* 
occultists, including even some ex-ToS members.  (See, for example, the brief 
description of the Temple of Nepthys in SATAN WANTS YOU by Arthur Lyons,
Chapter IX.)"

You've just pushed a button of mine with reference to that specific ex-ToS 
member. At one time I considered Lynn Johnson to be a friend, and a very
promising Adept of the Temple of Set. I liked her, and I was close friends 
with her Setian fiance, and I was looking forward to being present at their 
wedding.

But almost without warning, she then became a very disruptive element, very 
antagonistic to the Temple and to all who believe in it, apparently because no 
one would Recognize her to the III*. (This is my interpretation of her 
motivation, based on what I know of her activities, including several hours of
listening to her on the telephone during that period in time while she tried
to "enlist" me to her side of the "struggle".)

She worked as hard as she could to harm the Temple of Set, and then founded
her own "Temple of Nepthys". She declared herself Maga, and distributed (sold)
copies of our _Crystal Tablet_, substituting her own name for Dr. Aquino's,
substituting "Red Magic" for "Black Magic", "Nepthys" for "Set", etc., but
otherwise it was a word for word copy (down to entries in her inter-member
communication roster -- my own entry in that roster was copied verbatim, with
only the names changed).

She's continued to do what she can to harm the Temple of Set, apparently up to 
and including obtaining a false membership (or having someone else do it for 
her), apparently so she could obtain updated copies of the _Crystal Tablet_
which she can then sell to others as her own again. (I have not seen a
recently plagiarized copy, but I've heard that others have.)

I strongly suggest that anything she says about anything be disregarded.

-----

I think I've covered all of the substantive points in this discussion. I hope
I have, since other work is calling to me.


X-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-X

 Another file downloaded from:                               NIRVANAnet(tm)

 & the Temple of the Screaming Electron   Jeff Hunter          510-935-5845
 The Salted Slug                          Strange              408-454-9368
 Burn This Flag                           Zardoz               408-363-9766
 realitycheck                             Poindexter Fortran   510-527-1662
 Lies Unlimited                           Mick Freen           415-583-4102
 Tomorrow's 0rder of Magnitude            Finger_Man           415-961-9315
 My Dog Bit Jesus                         Suzanne D'Fault      510-658-8078
 New Dork Sublime                         Demented Pimiento    415-566-0126

   Specializing in conversations, obscure information, high explosives,
        arcane knowledge, political extremism, diverse sexuality,
       insane speculation, and wild rumours. ALL-TEXT BBS SYSTEMS.

  Full access for first-time callers.  We don't want to know who you are,
   where you live, or what your phone number is. We are not Big Brother.

                          "Raw Data for Raw Nerves"

X-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-X
