




2/50: Well, if the rules are the least important part of a game
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:33:44 1991

Reply to    : ...
Original by : Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407


what does it matter if a GM changes a few around?
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






3/50: OK, I stand corrected, Neuromancer
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:36:09 1991

Reply to    : Have to break in, Bamf
Original by : Nueromancer #24 @5206


The players do make a big part of the game.
:)
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






4/50: Changing Rules
Name: Frank Filz #126 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 18:55:47 1991

Shihear Kallizad has  some very good points, but Ialso have reservations about 
his views:
 
1 - when I play a modified game, I do have written rules. I also call it 
"Modified xyz". I use the original name of the game because that  IS a 
framework of the game. If you know that game, you know areasonable amount of 
the game.
 
2 - don't play a game if you don't like all the rules? Well, I guess I won't 
run ANY commercial game system...There is NO commercial game system I am 
totally happy with. On the other hand I do have a limit. I gave up on AD&D 
after sufficiently altering the rules that my "house rules" replaced the 
original books, and the game was still not appealing.
 
3 - on rules discussions and changing rules during play: I have a couple 
comments here. First, if a changed rule is in question it is quite valid to 
have a discussion (during or after the game depending on importance of the 
decision etc). Some of my changes have been massive goofs (and many changes 
are as a result of "oops, that change causes this incredibly unreasonable 
effect"). Second, I have been running a game of my own design now for a while. 
It was run as a playtest (though admittedly, many of the later players 
actually weren't really informed as such). In a playtest game, it is quite 
reasonable to halt play for a massive discussion of game rules. On the other 
hand, it really is important that all players know the game is a playtest 
game. Third, quite frequently a  situation comes up where the rules really 
don't answer the problem satisfactorily. A quick discussion is often in order 
(and in these cases I almost always give some justification for my ruling).
 
More on rules (and  other) arguments during play. These are often the player's 
fault. Recently, I had a player argue at great length about why I would not 
tell him why I  had made a  ruling. He could not accept "I made the ruling 
that way because instinctively it felt right to me". This player has quite 
often questioned rules (now granted, this is in the playtest game). There are 
certain elements of my game which are not up for discussion (as  an example, 
discussion during playtest of AD&D 3rd edition with the intent of replacing 
character classes with lists of skills and powers ala Champions or GURPS is 
pointless. That  is NOT the AD&D game system. It might be a better system, but 
you don't decide apples taste horrible and paint an orange red and call it an 
apple 2 [not meaning to denigrate that lovely if outdated computer the Apple 
II]).






5/50: ICE and Hero Games
Name: Bamf! < Rama Rama > #6 @19953
Date: Tue Oct 22 20:13:54 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)

RE: As I have mentioned in "E-Mail" to someone... 
BY: Ferret #1 @9701

The merger also allows the campaign suppliments to be combined into one set.  
The Mythic Egypt suppliment is rather good.
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






6/50: Gamma World????
Name: Dungeon Master #1 @8327
Date: Tue Oct 22 05:23:30 1991
From: Fantasy's inc.. (South Carolina)

     Has anyone seen the reissue of Gamma world? Evidently TSR just reissued 
it. I Noticed the box set yesterday in one of our local stores. hmmm Wonder if 
they are planning a ressurection of this game. Might piss alot of people off 
however. I had bought damn near all the stuff they came out with over the 
years, then the game died and thru the years I misplaced the stuff. Guess if I 
want to get back into the game I'll have to give TSR more money now, hmmm 
Wonder if they planed that.....

                                 DuNgEoN MaStEr

Mono~de~solerta~  The D.M. disappears.....

   There is a very fine line between fantasy and reality....and we obscure it!
          Fantasy's inc.. ~794-0936~ Home of Columbia S.C.'s roleplayers

              When the gamemaster smiles,.......... Its too late!!







7/50: Testing...
Name: Beltair #1 @2368
Date: Tue Oct 22 07:04:39 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)

Test Message From The Forbidden Zone. Are we getting out?
-----

                                 012adlgj210
                                  0121@2368210

        ------<( The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN 213-929-4460 )>------
           ------<( We Are Now SNARFABLE!! D/L FILELIST.ZIP )>------







8/50: What kind and how many 
Name: Flashback #51 @2368
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:02:26 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)

Games are running in this sub, and if so, which one are open....
                                                                 SHBCK

                 ------<(The Forbidden Zone Norwalk PIN)>------
------<(Unofficial WWIV Suport Board - Over 8megs in Mods and Utilities)>------







9/50: Uhh....
Name: Rick #8 @19953
Date: Wed Oct 23 09:53:08 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)

RE: What kind and how many 
BY: Flashback #51 @2368

I think this sub is for dicussion of RPGs only...

Not actually playing them...



                                            R.






10/50: Shihear...
Name: Eight Hundred, 4 Score & Eight #5 @19953
Date: Wed Oct 23 16:34:26 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

It's really hard to take any of your arguments seriously when you're so picky
that you will jump on someone's case for spelling "AD&D" with a plus symbol
instead of an ampersand.  Why didn't you correct the grammar of his post while
you were at it?

BTW, Since what's in the books is so important to you:

"It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is
important.  *NEVER* [my emphasis] hold to the letter written, nor allow some
barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you....Within
the *BROAD PARAMATERS* [again my emphasis] given in the Advancved Dungeons &
Dragons volumes, you [i.e., the DM] are the creator and final arbiter."

That was quoted from p. 230 of 1st Edition Dungeon Masters Guide.  In other
words, breaking the rules is in the rules.

     Eight Hundred, Four Score, and Eight...
     The Number of the Wildebeest!






11/50: All or Nothing...
Name: Caesar #17 @4407
Date: Monday, October 21, 1991  11:43 pm
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

AD&D is not a game of all or nothing.  When a DM chooses to modify the stated 
rules, he has an obligation to inform all his players of the change.  However, 
it's perfectly reasonable to still call it AD&D.  As long as you mention that 
it's MODIFIED AD&D.

Players and DM's who use these modified systems really shouldn't go bragging 
about their super characters, or transporting them to other worlds/campaigns, 
or using these new rules with any short term group that doesn't have time to 
absorb all the changes.  In short term games, the rules, AS STATED, should be 
absolute, as it's a real waste of time to decide which modifications to use and explain them to all and sundry involved.

AD&D is a set of guidelines.  It must be flexible to succeed in a variety of 
campaign worlds.  However, it is also a standard, and it must be INflexible to 
maintain continuity.  Anybody who can't learn to keep this dichotomy straight 
is probably too stupid to roleplay successfully, anyway (I did say probably, so I could be wrong).

Just butting in where I have no business,
Caesar

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







12/50: Dark Sun
Name: Vamp #309 @9702
Date: Fri Oct 18 11:25:05 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

          Sorry to change he subject but what do you all think of the Dark Sun 
world? I just picked up the boxed set this week.
-----
Of all things I've lost I miss my mind the most!                               
 






13/50: We ahd the chat before but I still think
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Fri Oct 18 15:37:21 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

that magery shouldn't be outlawed ingame such  as Dark Sun... I hope they 
bring some spelljammers into the game and maybe even find or create a way for  
the earth to revitalize itself.   and what about the clerics? Gad magic 
draining the planet?






14/50: It...
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Sat Oct 19 18:18:20 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> I am getting tired of this vampire decker crap...
<Written By:> Seer Count Zero #90 @7653

is still being debated if thevampire is  dead from the HVV... somthing... I 
dn't remember the exact term.... or is still considered living.   The disease 
is more a genetic rearrangings of the metahumans dna I think... anyhow,  I 
believe the mana isn't going anywhere if the vampire decks intothe 
matrix...also don't believe the datajack will stay in the vamp's body long 
enough  to be effective. The use of invasive cybernetics wouldn't work on 
regenning creatures. The best way for a vamp to get to the matrix  is another 
agent  in the matrix or a virtual reality helmet and body suit.  A  lot more 
work but no need of the neural interface...  probably also a lot slow but who 
knows?






15/50: Where can I download it from?
Name: Montana Wildehack #188 @3658
Date: Mon Oct 21 13:54:14 1991
From: The Grey Matter Guild (Kansas)

RE: Maxtrix game on IEX

I will get it for this area. (I have not seen it on any bbs in this area)

Help! *grin*

The Wildehacker-------------------->






16/50: Still got the dice but...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:29:41 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Something tells me you read only main-line fiction.
<Written By:> Ferret #1 @9701

     All of my characters save a few made at far away houses for single 
adventures are saved on the computer in convenient data files. I still use the 
dice and pencils though during play, It's not convenient to edit your character directly in a word processor during the game.

                                            Crazy Kid
-----
Serve the computer, the computer is your friend...

 






17/50: Positive...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:36:58 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Jump > Walk...
<Written By:> Black-Robe Mage #9 @9701

     Mechs jumping is not able to exced a mechs walking speed. The old battle 
tech book and the new BT handbook both agree on this one. Look around in the 
fine print around the mech creatin area and you'l eventually find it.

                                             After 5 years I should know...

                                                       Crazy Kid






18/50: I've seen the boxed set...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:38:41 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Dark Sun
<Written By:> Vamp #309 @9702

     I've got a fried with it. It looks like a good harsh campaign world. I 
don't think I'll probably spend my own scarce monies on it but it looks pretty 
good. 

                                             Crazy Kid
-----
Remember; nly you can prevent forrests...

 






19/50: Yah. I agree, good game for a silly weekend.
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:46:30 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Toons!
<Written By:> Dr.Jones #37 @5460

     I don't own the game but have played it with a hoarde of friends on 
occasion. You also might want to look up Teenagers from outer space. Regardless of what others tell ya it uses the same rule system. It just has a different 
motto and stranger items...(Goop gun, boygirl gun, pan galactic getto blaster( 
Really big sterio),holoman (Walkman video glasses),ect.)

     Had a rather silly game once where my character had the talent of pulling 
things out of my pocket. On'y prob was that over half the time I got something 
else. I asked for a Big Mac (I was hungry) and ended up with a Mac truck. 
Soooooooo.... Putting on my holoman I start up the engine and blindly drive 
through the complex looking for a fast food joint... The other players wanted 
me dead because I conveniently came about as close to crushing one of them as 
possible, saved his but though, crashed into the strange alien that was about 
to put him back in his cell....

     Really weird games...

                                                       Crazy Kid
-----
Serve the computer, the computer is your friend...






20/50: Another post...(It's been a while....)
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:55:20 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

     If you are having probs with keeping in the role playing aspect of things 
I suggest that you try to get a chance to watch one of the on line games. 
Because of the limitations of running a game by posts it tends to keep things 
twoards the essence of role playing. Moving more and more away from the rules 
you get to what role playing really is. 

     I because of other obligations ond the extreme activity of the board I'm 
on was not able to get into the game I am GM of for 3 to four days. I return to see near 20 messages back and forth regarding the game. The game was still 
going WITHOUT me as the GM, the players were interacting and didn't actually 
need me to be there to keep things in order. This is the essence of role 
playing...

                                                  (Yawn.) Time fer some sleep.

                                                       Crazy Kid






21/50: What about Lams'?
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Tue Oct 22 13:39:35 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Positive...
<Written By:> Crazy Kid #50 @9702

They can far out jump the walking speed when  inLam mode.






22/50: With almost public access to that su
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Tue Oct 22 13:41:34 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)

<Reply to:--> Another post...(It's been a while....)
<Written By:> Crazy Kid #50 @9702

whatdo expect from a bunchof modemers over theweekend? Youhave to stay on top 
of the subject that's one of the main reasons that the DM is the center point 
of thegame.  What DM says is Truth.






23/50: Is there anybody out there 
Name: Kitty Killer #141 @2368
Date: Wed Oct 23 00:33:39 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)

interested in playing/learning how to play AD&D????? Our group gets together 
on Sat. nights in Bellflower!!!!! For more details, E-mail me!!!!!





      KITTY KILLER



Life is a game that is ruled with an IRON FIST!!!!






24/50: Toast: On
Name: Nueromancer #24 @5206
Date: Wed Oct 23 16:42:02 1991
From: The Realm BBS (Kentucky)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

The "spiffy little blue boxes" are the 2nd edition optional rules.  Again, I
don't deal with second edition, because of the problems it creates with the
"unchangeable rule" atitude.  
     Your example of rules modification is biased. First, called shots are
allowed (2nd edition AD&D, Fighter's HB), though I do not use them.  (not THEN,
probably, but now). Also, if you have critical strikes (which I use a different
method for... more realistic) then you must have the opposite.  Not only really
GOOD, but really BAD.  If that kobold had rolled a 1, and critically MISSED,
killing his companion, would you have been so incensed?  I doubt it.
     2nd, I make a point of telling everyone involved in a game of any and all
house rules that are currently active.  Rather foolish not to.  if they don't
like it, they have the option of leaving then and there.  Or we can work
something out.
     As for your up-and-leaving - I can understand what drove you to do that,
though I think I would have responded differently.  
     True.  Technically, it is not AD&D.  But I DON'T say it is AD&D - I add,
as a said, "with some changes".  But I dispute that it is so different as THAT.
 Not so.  The BASIC play of the game remains the same.  
     "When they DO deal with something, it's the rule."
     Ok.  I can agree with that.  In the 1st edition DMG, it specificly states
that the DM can change any rule at any time for whatever reason.
They dealt with it.  It's the rule.
     If it isn't situation, they can debate it when they first make the
character, or before the next game if the character already exists.  If it IS
situational, then the DM can as I said make a snap judgement.  
     The laws of magic do not dictate that large amounts of metal disrupt
spellcasting.  What of tè@elven fighter-mage?  What of the spell Lightning
Bolt?  The reasoning was that armor restricted movements too much.  A fighter
over 10th level will feel as comfortable in armor as he is out of it, and if
they dual-class to mage, then they CAN wear armor and cast spells (at the cost
of 1/2 xp, true).  That armor must be padded or leather - nothing else works.
And, of course, that applies to NPCs as well, if they decide to do the same.
No imbalance.
     No, you do not end up with a super class.  Look at the information you
have.  It is most definately NOT a super class.  It is something designed to
make dual-class characters survivable.
     My goodness.  We agree.  On heavier armor then padded, you get a chance to
send the spell correctly, and a chance to botch it.  At chain mail, the
botch-percentage is 75%.  And yes, it IS simpler to go with the written
guidelines.  I choose not to, because I don't let complexity scare me.
     As for resistance being immediate, all-or-nothing, well, if that is your
opinion, fine.  I have no problem with that - the DM's decision.  But in my
games, resistance might give you some time, situationally.  
     Again, that situation came up ONCE.  after that, resistance worked that
way, unless a player has a problem with it.  
     BETTER SUITED TO THE SITUATION does not mean better.  Just that something
doesn't in that situation as well as something else, though it may work
wonderfully everywhere else.
     And for the description of rule changes in your last paragraph - those are
NOT good changes.  They imbalance the game.
                                  Nueromancer
                                       Is
                  Currently Existing In This Space-Time Nexus







25/50: Rules
Name: Nemisis #64 @4701
Date: Mon Oct 21 20:09:24 1991
From: The Lair of the Wolverine (Florida)

Hey, I follow most rules, and the ones that strike me as dumb or the ones I 
dont understand, I adapt.  I repeat ADAPT! I dont beleive rules are the least 
important part of RPG's, if they are, why buy the RPG? You can play anything 
without rules!  With anything, you have to have rules.  How else do you find 
out if you hit or miss, get killed or stay alive, get the babe or not?!!!

                                       I am your NEMISIS

___
IMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMooO(. #)OooMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;
: The Lair of the Wolverine. @4701 (407)294-9446 :
:"We are NOT your average BBS.":
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM<_-_>MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM





26/50: RULES
Name: Dodger #183 @4701
Date: Mon Oct 21 22:50:04 1991
From: The Lair of the Wolverine (Florida)

I'm getting a little tired of people bickering about rules.  They're saying 
that you need to follow the EXACT rules as if they were handed down on a stone 
slate from heaven or else your game sucks and you're a scumwad.  Thet're 
saying that you have to ignore the rules and freewheel because the game is the 
important thing, and having lots of rules is boring and you spend all your 
time reading tables.  LETS GET A LITTLE BIT MATURE HERE!  
Anyone can run their game however they want to.  If you don't like rules, 
fine.  Zap 'em.  Anyone who likes rigid rules doesn't have to play your game, 
and you don't have to play their "restricitve, non-fun" version.  And to 
whoever posted that garbage about the designer knowing more about the game 
than you ever will, so you should accept his rules as holy writ, that's a big 
load of crap.  No game designer is God.  They can't foresee everything that 
the players are going to want to do.  Every game on the market has 
imperfections.  It's only natural.  You pick the one you like best and use it. 
If anything doesn't fit, or is lacking, you can adjust it to work however you 
want because it's your campaign.  You can't tell me that the designer knows 
everything about his world perfectly and knows in advance everything the 
players are going to try and wrote a rule for it.  I'll bet you can call up 
FASA and ask them about vampire deckers, and they haven't thought about it.  
If anyone out there wants to talk about RPGs, then feel free to come and be 
welcome.  If you can't think of anything better to do that icker and argue 
about something that makes no difference anyway, then go do it in E-Mail or 
something and spare the rest of us your ignorance.  I'm sorry, but the 
immaturity level here is reaching critical mass.  Rules are meant not to be 
the word of God, they are meant to be guidelines.  They aren't perfect, you 
can call any game designer and ask him/her and they will tell you that the 
rules aren't perfect.  If games were perfect, why do you think that there ar 
second editions?  Because the first one had flaws.  So does the second one.  
So will the 34th edition.  But that doesn't mean that because of something 
that the designer didn't foresee that we just have to shrug and use a rule 
that doesn't make sense in one special situation.  Anyone with enough wisdom 
to make the rules work the way they were MEANT to, and not the way they were 
put into WORDS, I applaud you.  The rest of you, well, keep practicing.

                                          The Artful Dodger

___
IMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMooO(. #)OooMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;
: The Lair of the Wolverine. @4701 (407)294-9446 :
:"We are NOT your average BBS.":
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM<_-_>MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM





27/50: Rules? Guidelines? And What Game Are We Playing, Anyway?
Name: Familiar Cat #31 @19957
Date: Thu Oct 24 17:37:04 1991
From: Format C: (North Carolina)


    I have no problem with "by the book" games or "modified rules" games. 
I've played in games, GM'd by people of both types, and had lots of fun with
both.  However, I must admit that it is easier for a player to come into a
"by the book" game than one that is so heavily modded that you don't know
what game you're playing.  

    A good rule of the thumb that I've found for RPGs is that if you plan to
use house rules for things directly effecting characters, then one should
keep a copy of these rules for players to familiarize themselves with before
the game.  Especially so in the case of alternate character generation
methods.  

Case In Point : A few years ago I was playing old TRAVELLER and I
noticed that my character only had about half the skills of the other
characters.  My first conclusion was that my character was generated out of
Traveller Book 1 (Characters & Combat) but after talking with another player,
I discovered that all the characters were out of book 1 and that the GM had
special generation rules for background and educational skills that I did not
know about.  I asked the GM about this, and he confirmed what the other
player had told me.  He simply had forgotten about the alternate generation
method with me.  One of the reasons for this is that when I came in, he was
busy running a session, and couldn't tell me about the mods he had made to
the game.  All of which only existed in his memory.

Another Case In Point : Last year I was gaming with a VERY large GURPS group,
of which many of us ran differnt game, all with GURPS.  Every one of us in
the group had a differnt financial situation, so we all weren't able to buy
each and every new GURPS supplement that was published.  We started having
problems... real problems, when characters that were created with rules
expansions out of GURPS SPACE started showing up in games along side of
characters only in the basic book.  Since this space game was very "Star
Wars"esque there were lots and lots of high-G space combat.  High
GEE-Tollerence is an advantage that all fighter pilot characters needed, but
only the ones that had GURPS SPACE knew about.  Anyway, to solve this
problem, all the GM's in the group agreed to a few things.  1) That all
players would be informed of the rules for character generation at least a
week before the actual game, 2) People would be given a list of expanded
skills, advantages, disadvantages, and equipment that would be included in
the character generation process, 3) Players would be given a one page
"brief" on the game world and "philosophy" thereof, 4) and copys of
additional rules would be made available to everyone.  It sounded like a
great idea, but would it work?  Well, I had my doubts, but the first new game
after that proved me wrong.  The GM, Marc Faulcon, had typed all the rules
for character generation into his computer, along with game world background,
and character sugestions.  There were no questions about the game, and
everyone had ballanced characters.  That set a precident, form that day on,
we all lived by these simple rules and our bickering about character
generation died.

Now, I realize that I used GURPS as an example, but I also play AD&D both 1st
and 2nd Editions.  With first edition, you had games running with The
Player's Handbook, The DMG, and The Monster Manual, you also had game running
with the addition of The Unearthed Arcana, and some people even used
additional material from DRAGON Magazine and RoleAids (by Mayfair Games). 
And you still have the same thing with 2nd Edition AD&D, you have the Players
Handbook, and the Dungeon Masters Guide, and then you have all the little
class companion books, which complicate things even more.  So the same
solution could apply to AD&D games as well.

                                                                             
*-                        F A M I L I A R   C A T                          -*
                                                                             

a.k.a Roger Carden
*- Moderator, RPG Forum






28/50: Why say AD+D and not AD&D...
Name: Familiar Cat #31 @19957
Date: Thu Oct 24 17:45:19 1991
From: Format C: (North Carolina)



Because AD&D is a registered trademark of TSR, INC of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

TSR, INC is a company that is "lawsuit happy", and will threaten a law suit
on anyone who annoys them.  I don't mind using AD&D because I'm not afraid
of losing everything that I have to TSR, INC because I don't have all that
much, and because I'm protected by NAARP, INC as that organzation's agent. 
There is no problem with reffering to a trademarked name so long as you do
not make claims to ownership of the trademark, do not imply such, and state,
matter of factly, that you make no claims thereon.

As an example, Mayfair games produces a groups of supplements to AD&D under
tha name RoleAids.  Mayfair does not have a liscense to use the AD&D 
trademark, but does so because they can make the factual statement that their
products are compatible with the AD&D game system.  The also point out that
the reffernce to AD&D is done without the permision of TSR and is not a claim
of ownership of the trademark.  

You find these things out when you're a fanzine publisher, and TSR legal
starts breathing down you neck because you print articles about their crown
product.







29/50: Well...
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Wednesday, October 23, 1991  11:41 pm
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: My turn on the Rules Soapbox...
By: Wizard Rhiannon #104 @7653

     ...You can use AD&D in two ways, 1) as a system and 2) as a system and 
gameworld...

     If you create your own game world, then obviously there may be a need to 
make some rules changes... What you have done then is what AD&D did when they 
created Dragonlance... It's basicly AD&D, but enough rules are different, and 
the game world is consideribly altered...

     What you should do is call this game by your worlds name or general game 
theme and when they ask, "what's that?" you can explain that it's an alternate 
AD&D type world, sort of like Dragonlance...  

     Again, my complaint was with people who feel that this rule or that rule 
is better than what is used in AD&D and still claim it to be AD&D... 

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)
-----
Brazen stupidity will kill you more often than the dice ever will!

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







30/50: People can play characters badly...
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Wednesday, October 23, 1991  11:48 pm
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: A hell of a point you have there!
By: Myrmidon Justice #89 @7653

     ...but a more percise way of putting it is "bad roleplaying"...

     A character is that players.  Don't pay any attention to anyone trying to 
tell you how to play that character...

     However...

     If at anytime you do something that is considered bad roleplaying, then it could be said you played your character badly...  

     Since I wasn't there, I don't know if you did or didn't...  And it doesn't matter... As long as your play didn't drasticly take anything away from the 
game, it's acceptable...  Everyone has or does roleplay poorly at some point in time...
     
     And, on another point...

     Someone said how players are more important than GM's...

     Well, let's put it this way... A good GM can teach good playing to the 
players by example...  It does NOT work the other way around, simply because a 
GM does *SO* much more than *ANY* player does...

     A player has a reasonably simple task...  Become the character...  That's 
it... It's not hard to accomplish that well...  But, a GM has to keep track of 
each and every player, character, NPC, monster, plots, subplots and all the 
real world things like paying for pizza, telling people where the bathroom is, 
et al...

     A player plays his character... A GM plays all the other people, places 
and things in the world...  It's a FAR more dificult and complex thing and FAR 
easier to be BAD at GMing, and BAD GMing can make GOOD playing difficult to 
impossible...

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)
-----
Insanity is just a state of mind.

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







31/50: It doesn't "matter"...
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Wednesday, October 23, 1991  11:53 pm
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: Well, if the rules are the least important part of a game
By: Bamf! #24 @9955

> what does it matter if a GM changes a few around?

     ...and what I said was that rules are the least important part of the game when it comes to deciding if the game is a good one or not...

     In other words, you can take the best game system (by any given criteria 
of playability or realisum or whatever) and put the hokiest, dumbest background etc around it and the game will suck...  However, you can take the worst game 
system (by any given criteria) and if the background and everything is 
detailed, complete, interesting, etc, then the game is a good one...

     Anyway, you can change all the rules you want to your game, but don't call it AD&D, because it's not...

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







32/50: ...
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Thursday, October 24, 1991  12:08 am
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: Shihear...
By: Eight Hundred, 4 Score & Eight #5 @19953

> It's really hard to take any of your arguments seriously when you're
> so picky that you will jump on someone's case for spelling "AD&D" with a
> plus symbol instead of an ampersand.  Why didn't you correct the grammar of
> his post while you were at it?

     Ever hear of a pet peeve?  When you're dealing with aberviations, which 
AD&D is, you've got to be correct about the order, case and characters used to 
be totally clear as to what you are refering to...  In MOST cases, people who 
use AD+D instead of AD&D are those too lazy or unskilled to hit shift-7 and 
instead go for the plus key, many times off the numeric keypad...  Like I said, it's a pet peeve, and one which has been brought up here atleast once before by someone else...

> BTW, Since what's in the books is so important to you:
> 
> "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is
> important.  *NEVER* [my emphasis] hold to the letter written, nor allow some 
> barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon
> you....Within the *BROAD PARAMATERS* [again my emphasis] given in the
> Advancved Dungeons & Dragons volumes, you [i.e., the DM] are the creator and
> final arbiter."

> That was quoted from p. 230 of 1st Edition Dungeon Masters Guide.  In
> other words, breaking the rules is in the rules.

     First, since you're using 1st edition, it's entirely moot as it's no 
longer the official rules, but I'll tackle it anyway...

     Now, let me use MY EMPHASIS by pointing out the first sentence, "It is the SPIRIT of the game, NOT the letter of the RULES, which is important."  This 
means that since AD&D is a game where the authors choose GAME PLAY over REALITY
*MOST* of the rules changes people make to AD&D are *NOT* within the SPIRIT of 
the game.  Add to gameplay/reality the fact that AD&D is a HUMAN based system, 
this takes another BIG chunk of rules changes and being against the SPIRIT of 
the game.  I will bet you the entire 2nd edition that E. Gary Gygax will *NOT* 
like the majority of rules changes people could list here for that very reason.

     Second, most of that passage deals with the rules that do and do not exist that debate could come up about, and not the addition or omission of rules to 
the extent of adding crit's, allowing Mages to wear platemail or xxxth level 
multiclass demihuman's...

     Third, I've advocated ones right to do with the material they've bought 
and paid for, for thier use... What I'm speaking out against is people totally 
altering AD&D and still calling it AD&D...  To that, again, I say, why bother 
buying these rules if you do not want to use them?

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







33/50: Oh ok...
Name: Flashback #51 @2368
Date: Thu Oct 24 15:21:29 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)

RE: Uhh....
BY: Rick #8 @19953

I was just wondering..I like to play the thing when I have free time (weekends, but even then..)  oh well...I will answer questiond on stuff I know....Thanks
                                                                 SHBC/s

               ------<( This Message Brought to you by )>------
              ------<( The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN )>------







34/50: Well...
Name: Patch #1 @4701
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:43:41 1991
From: The Lair of the Wolverine (Florida)

RE: RULES
BY: Dodger #183 @4701

Hio dude, I agree, and like I said, for the online gaming, I have told you, YOU are in charge, you deal with the game the way you want to, you want to get 
creative, go ahead.  I just think that will add spice to the game.  I can't 
believe anyone that has wanted to sign up for the game, has said that about the rules, well, not to be a stub, but *I* am the one that told him to work ithis 
way...
    ___
ooO(. #)Ooo
=-=PATCH=-=
   ( . )
   <_-_>
-----
" S N I K T "

___
IMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMooO(. #)OooMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;
: The Lair of the Wolverine. @4701 (407)294-9446 :
:"We are NOT your average BBS.":
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM<_-_>MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM





35/50: Half of the arguements you have are the reason...
Name: Ferret #1 @9701
Date: Wed Oct 23 21:11:39 1991
From: The Forest Thru The Trees (Alaska)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

Alot of what BOTH of you are saying is the reason that where I come from, its 
called VD&D.  (Varient Dungeons and Dragons).
 
Nothing wrong with house rules at all... assuming you are playing at your 
house.  Your point about "gaming clubs" and open games, cons etc is well taken.
 
Hell, the first time I played AD&D after playing with/running the same core 
group of folks for 9 years was quite a shock.  Didn't realise how much we have 
altered the AD&D rules.  Probably explains why only Exceptional Role Players or folks with alot of determination (or totally boring lifes. hehe) ever "joined" 
our group.  We probably confused the hell out of them! B-) 

-----
"Love is a crime... it's stealing my soul and my mind!"






36/50: Your point about writing out rule changes is excellent!
Name: Ferret #1 @9701
Date: Wed Oct 23 21:19:56 1991
From: The Forest Thru The Trees (Alaska)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

(pardon my spelling please, to lazy to use my dictionary. hehe)
 
I have found that goes along ways toward making the "learning experiance" with 
house rules an easier task.
 
I obviously disagree about no reason to "change" rules.  The reason folks 
change rules, but keep a basic structure are fairly simple:
 
     A)  The like the basic "framework" but have disputes/want their personal
         touches on their specific game.

     B)  It gives someone a base to work from when "learning" about this "new"
         system.

     C)  Somethings that are looked at as "rule changes" by some are looked at
         as "world differances" by others.

     D)  Some folks just don't have the time/are to lazy to write, market
         and produce their own system, but have alot of ideas to share
         with folks and need a "vehicle".  
 
Heck, lets be honest... do you think that none of the existing game systems are not based on one or more other games?
 
Heck, anyone who remembers the early days of Dungeons and Dragons can remeber 
its "painful" change from a "war game" to a role playing game.   
 
Wonderful thing about gaming is there is plenty of room for differing opinions.  B-) 



 
-----
"Love is a crime... it's stealing my soul and my mind!"






37/50: Hehehe... That quiz is perfectly neutral.. honest!
Name: Ferret #1 @9701
Date: Wed Oct 23 21:22:57 1991
From: The Forest Thru The Trees (Alaska)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

Hehehe... 
 
-----
"Love is a crime... it's stealing my soul and my mind!"






38/50: Bravo! Bravo!
Name: Ferret #1 @9701
Date: Wed Oct 23 21:27:03 1991
From: The Forest Thru The Trees (Alaska)

RE: Changing Rules
BY: Frank Filz #126 @9955

Well put, and I feel like a clutz after reading said words.  B-) 
 
I really need to get back into "writting" with some style.  To much modeming is bad for your grammer, spelling and coherant thought processes.
 
Unmangos

-----
"Love is a crime... it's stealing my soul and my mind!"






39/50: Not really.  To take an example from a Dragon mag editorial
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Fri Oct 25 13:38:50 1991

Reply to    : It doesn't "matter"...
Original by : Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407


called "Poker, Chess and AD&D".  The editor talked about all the different 
versions of poker out there, as well as versions of chess, and then compaired 
AD+D to all that.  Five card draw and seven card stud are all still poker, and 
the version of AD&D I play and the version you play are still AD+D, despite 
some of the small details that may have been changes.  We are still using the 
Player's Handbook to generate characters, and the Dungeon Master's Guide to 
get the to-hit tables.
    If you want to take your argurment to the extreme, using a monster you 
created with an unusual special power, or an artifact you created for your 
world is not AD&D because they did not come from the Monster Manual or the 
Dungeon Master's Guide respectively.  As a previous poster above said, the 
AD+D system was MEANT to be modified and played with, with still being AD&D.
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






40/50: That has been allready covered.
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Fri Oct 25 13:41:49 1991

Reply to    : ...
Original by : Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407


Why buy the rules?  Because you like the general framework of the system, and 
changing a few details, or even a major one (like using Arms Law or Spell Law 
as alternates to the AD&D system, like those two suppliments were originally 
meant to be used) does not invalidate the rest of the system.  Besides, alot 
of creative people don't have the time to create a whole game from scratch, 
and would rather take an existing system, learn it, and then fix it up.
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






41/50: Well worded, my big blue friend.
Name: Eight Hundred, 4 Score & Eight #5 @19953
Date: Fri Oct 25 16:19:24 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)

RE: Not really.  To take an example from a Dragon mag editorial
BY: Bamf! #24 @9955

The fact of the matter is, I can't think of a single game where there are
absolutely no variant rules, except for highly simplistic ones like craps and
paper, scissors, rock (and truth be told, I've even seen variations to the
latter).  But this occasion is the only one where I've been told that changing
a rule makes it a different game, even though it's the only game I've ever
seen where the rulebook flat out tells you to go ahead and change the rules.  

Shihear, do you use the auction rule when you play Monopoly?  If not, do you
ask your friends if they want to play "Modified Monopoly"?  

     Eight Hundred, Four Score, and Eight...
     The Number of the Wildebeest!






42/50: not that
Name: Metallikat #19 @19962
Date: Fri Oct 25 19:59:17 1991
From: Friday the 13th (North Carolina)

RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407

it matters in the least of if you use AD+D or AD&D....  life is offered to 
thou...

     /|
     /\/|ETALLIKAT
~~~~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   /
  /_
oww... that + hurts my eyes.... (Sniff)
(jez kidding.... take no offense... but no need to get picky)

a>ESonja






43/50: Rules, TORG, and things that go bump...
Name: Shadow Lord #7 @2107
Date: Wed Oct 23 12:54:16 1991
From: The Outlaw's Hide-Out (New Jersey)

MESSAGE STATUS: No Reply Neccessary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting argument.

  To be honest, having had bunches of RPG experience m'self, I find myselkf 
agreeing with almost everything everyone on both sides of the fence has 
said--rules can be a big pain in the butt, but at the same time, SOME rules 
are neccessary.

  The WORST part of the Rules argument is that my friends and I have YET to 
find a game which can be played right-out-of-the-box/boak/wsat-have-you.

  EVERY game we've seen--AD&D, Traveller, GURPS, Paranoia, Champions, 
Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, Battletech, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum, has had to 
have some modifications made to it in order to even be playable on an 
enjoyable basis.  I don't mean to sound conceited or anything like that, but 
the players I've been playing with for the past several years and I have, 
invariably, been "smarter than the rules"--the loopholes in the rules are 
ALWAYS played upon (we are not powergamers or rules-rapist--but the errors in 
the game design are almost always ridiculously easy to find) and game balance 
is always ruined by the fact that noone really likes things too much when the 
GM has to make fiat decisions....

  Anyway, I'm babbling.  After a years-long quest down many dead end roads, we 
FINALLY found a game which could be played out-of-the-books; and that's TORG.  
The rules system there is pretty much explanatory, the game is fun, and, to 
boot, it is a combination of bunches of different RPGs.

No, I don't work for West End. <grin>

Shadow Lord
"Behind every revolution...is one man with a vision."






44/50: I have to honestly say
Name: The Sage #8 @2368
Date: Fri Oct 25 16:45:58 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)

RE: RULES
BY: Dodger #183 @4701

with all this talk about rules, the best RPG I ever played had no real set 
rules.  It was an adaption of D&D, AD&D, Hero and a whole lot of others.  Never published and was FUN, which was the point in the first place (remember?).

It also have one of the most interesting magic systems I've ever encountered. 
It used spell points, and you told the GM what you wanted to do, and he decided how dificult it was after discussing it a little bit, rolled whether it worked 
or not and that was that.  

(And yes I realize those were run-on sentances, but then so what)

          The Sage
     If you peel away the skin is there anybody there?
          Is there anybody hiding `f you peel away the skin?

                 ------<(The Forbidden Zone Norwalk PIN)>------
------<(Unofficial WWIV Suport Board - Over 8megs in Mods and Utilities)>------







45/50: TORG
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Sat Oct 26 22:57:34 1991

Reply to    : Rules, TORG, and things that go bump...
Original by : Shadow Lord #7 @2107


Yeah, that is a fun system.  I've considered doing some other campaign ideas 
with it away from the given one.
                         *         *
                        *** BAMF! ***
                         *         *






46/50: As for rules,
Name: The Buccaneer #98 @2362
Date: Sat Oct 26 20:32:49 1991
From: Hz Castle (Southern California)

any of the earlier games has good and bad rules.  And every game has problems. 
 But the way to play is to work out a set of modifications to the "official" 
rules which everyone who is playing agrees to.  That way, no matter who is 
currently DMming, assuming you rotate that task, everyone knows what to expect 
as far as dice, etc.   It really isn't that hard, just take some time and get 
to know the others you are playing with and work out an agreeable guidelines 
or such if you don't like the term rules!






47/50: right, but....
Name: Studart #121 @5206
Date: Fri Oct 25 20:41:48 1991
From: The Realm BBS (Kentucky)

RE: Shihear...
BY: Eight Hundred, 4 Score & Eight #5 @19953

it's always nice to let your players know beforehand exactly what changes you 
have in mind....
and with ad&d, which rules to use, between 1st, 2nd, and Dragon, there're a 
lot of contradictions. 
The biggest problem, though, is within any edition, which books you have.
that's why i like those games with at most 1 or 2 rulebooks, that all come in 
the same box.
                                Studart Was Here






48/50: Marvel.
Name: Carcass #310 @5206
Date: Sat Oct 26 06:50:59 1991
From: The Realm BBS (Kentucky)

RE: Marvel...
BY: Lando The Archmagi #23 @4412

You were saying that you would/have used Bio regeneration in the place of 
regeneration.  UHM...don't you think that (in a way) you are losing a little 
of the fun when you play like that.  I mean, yeah it is nice to have a 
character be able to do what you like but doesn't that just make it easier to 
win, right off the bat.  To me it isn't as fun if the game gets easier to play.
One question, do you use the system that it has in the Advanced set about 
raising attributes or do you have your own system and if so, how do you do it.
I really would appreciate your comment.






49/50: ....
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Monday, October 28, 1991   1:00 am
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: Your point about writing out rule changes is excellent!
By: Ferret #1 @9701

>      C)  Somethings that are looked at as "rule changes" by some are
> looked at as "world differances" by others.

     Very true, and I think that is what alot of people are moaning about...

     By "RULE" I mean an actual printed thing that says can or can't.  If there is no written material on it, obviously the rule of thumb becomes DM 
discrestion.

     One guy goes on and about he's not scared by complexity or whatever, blah 
blah, but the point is, AD&D is not designed for complexity and if you, as a 
player or GM desire or demand reality or complexity then you should not be 
playing AD&D, just as those more interested in raw roleplaying tend to shy away from Phoenix Command or even Rolemaster.

     I still question the sheer sanity of anyone who goes out and buys AD&D, 
says "this sucks" and begins a major rewrite... Then I get ticked off if they
call it AD&D, Varriant AD&D, Modified AD&D, because, quite frankly, most of 
them have been so drasticly altered that they're simply not even close, rules 
wise, game wise or just play wise...

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







50/50: ...
Name: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
Date: Monday, October 28, 1991   1:14 am
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)

Re: RULES
By: Dodger #183 @4701

     For someone calling for maturity, I have to say that was one of the most 
immature posts on the entire subject.  To date, the entire conversation has 
been handled very well by those choosing to take part in it.

     You come on and complain about the existance of the conversation, how 
you're sick of it.  Well, here's a hint, hit the spacebar and you don't have to even see them scroll by, much less read them.  It's choice.  We choose to 
discuss this in a civil manner, you can choose to simply skip the "thread". 
You do nothing but drag down the conversation to a level you claim to dislike 
by calling people, thier opinions, et al, "crap" or whatever other tackless and tastless terms you used.

     As to the one point on the designers and wether or not they know more than any player will ever know about the game they designed, you are dead wrong. 
99% of what you said on the subject is totally baseless because it went on the 
incorrect assumption that when I said that (The game designer will know more 
about his game than any player ever will.) I meant something I did not say.

     I did not say any game designer was god (although they are... They are the creative force, not the GM's or players because if not for them no GM or player would ever see any material on the game, and what they say about thier game is 
"it" because after all, it's thier game, their the ultimate GM so to speak... 
If they say *ALL* Dwarves are evil incarnate and you go and change it, you're 
not playing thier game anymore...) or that they sucsessfully second guess all 
the possibilities that the GM's and players can bring into it (or that they 
even try)...

     What I said was, they know more about thier game than any player ever 
will.  Period.  You buy the basic book, it says *ALL* Dwarves are evil 
incarnate, you don't like it and change it... Then when the third sup comes out it explains to you how and why they are, to a degree that even you agree with 
it and even like it, you've screwed yourself right out of it...

     Granted, the *ALL* Dwarves are evil incarnate is specificly a weak 
arguement, but the theory behind it isn't...  I've questioned severial things 
in Ars Magica that were not explained in detail in printed material that made 
perfect sense when explained by the authors...

Shihear Kallizad (1x)Shihear Kallizad (1x)
-----
"We're gonna need another Timmy!" - Mr. Lizard

Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
   "Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
    ...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968







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