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                 Results: Forgotten Realms Ratings
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          Compiled by: brooks@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (Goth)

[Note: This file is one section of the ratings posted on December 22, 1994 
to rec.games.frp.dnd; it is included in order to make the publically 
available ratings as complete as possible.]

                          ==============
                          Points Ratings
                          ==============

In order for a product to appear on the points rating table, it must
have at least five votes. Products are listed in points order, from
highest to lowest.

     /-------------------------------------------------------\
     |                        - Key -                        |
     |                                                       |
     |  Score = the product's average rating                 |
     |  Low = the lowest rating anyone gave this product     |
     |  High = the highest rating anyone gave this product   |
     |  Voters = the number of people who rated the product  |
     \-------------------------------------------------------/

Note: Results for the 1st Edition Forgotten Realms modules are
included in the results summary for the 1st Edition AD&D products.

Product                                     Score  Low  High  Voters
-------                                     -----  ---  ----  ------
Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog                8.4    3    10     20
FOR2: Drow of Underdark                      8.1    3    10     17
FR10: Old Empires                            8.0    7    10     11
Atlas of the Forgotten Realms World          7.9    5    10     14
Forgotten Realms Adventures                  7.8    5    10     21
FR11: Dwarves Deep                           7.7    6     9      8
FR16: Shining South                          7.7    7     8      7
Elminster's Ecologies                        7.6    4    10      9
FR13: Anauroch                               7.5    6     9      8
FR1: Waterdeep & the North                   7.4    3     8     11
FR4: The Magister                            7.3    3    10     12
FR6: Dreams of the Red Wizards               7.3    4    10     10
FR2: Moonshae                                7.3    2    10      8
FR5: The Savage Frontier                     7.2    3    10     11
FR14: Great Glacier                          6.8    4    10      5
MC3: Forgotten Realms                        6.7    3    10     20
Ruins of Undermountain                       6.7    1    10     17
MC11: Forgotten Realms II                    6.6    3    10     18
Menzoberranzan                               6.5    2    10     14
FR3: Empires of the South                    6.5    4     8     11
Forgotten Realms Boxed Set                   6.4    2    10     32
FOR1: Draconomicon                           6.4    2    10     14
New Edition Forgotten Realms Boxed Set       6.3    1    10     23
FR9: Bloodstone Lands                        6.2    2     9     11
FR7: Hall of Heroes                          5.9    3     9     10
FR8: Cities of Mystery                       5.6    4     7      5
FR12: Horde Campaign                         5.6    5     6      5
Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels   3.3    0     7     12
PG2: Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms  2.9    0     6     10

                             ========
                             Comments
                             ========

This next bit is a selection of comments people have sent in. I've
removed some remarks which were very similar, especially for products
which provoked large quantities of comment and I've done some minor
editing for grammar and spelling. Other than that, this is how they
were sent in.

Core Boxed Sets and General Comments
------------------------------------
The original boxed set is okay, I guess, (I haven't used it for
campaigning yet), but I would have liked to see more of the
interaction between countries, and the various wonders of Toril
(rather than having to buy all the modules).

I thoroughly enjoyed the New Edition FR Box... I personally thought
it to be well thought out and pretty good value for money. I did find
that the module they included wasn't that good. It wasn't well
planned at all and a little confusing in places. Also, I was
disappointed in the fact that their "God system" (Of gods being able
to die) wasn't changed.

Ed's world was really great when it started, but then they started
doing things like the "Avatar" series and blew it all to hell. Having
more than one person work in the world was a good idea, but
consistency has suffered, and quality was allowed to become uneven.
There are WAY too many 20th+ mages or spell-users running around, if
you ask me -- it's becoming "munchkinworld." Too bad, because their
base for this one was everything they could ask for.

Most FR products are good. I do not particularly care for their
adventure modules though.

A general observation about the New Edition Campaign setting as well
as other "re-releases" of second edition updates of FR material is
that there has been a lot of reprinting. I bought both the New FR
campaign setting and the City of Splendors boxed set expecting a
fresh look at these places, but I was disappointed to see how much
was simply reprinted from the first edition stuff, which I already
had.

I don't actually play in the Realms, but the accessories I own mesh
seamlessly into any campaign, especially Aurora's Catalogue, and the
Draconomicon.

The setting in general is not worth wasting your time or $ on. Just
about every homemade campaign setting I've seen is more interesting.
If you really have to buy your world, buy Ravenloft.

I have a lot of complaints about the Forgotten Realms. I list a
number of these below. Many could be applied to any of TSR's game
worlds.

1) TSR originally announced FR as their "official AD&D world" and
they stated that all future modules would be set there. It was on
this basis that I got sucked into buying the original boxed set. Not
only have they completely ignored this promise, but the few modules
that they have produced for FR have been pathetic.
2) Once a group invests in the boxed set, all they have is brief
sketch of a huge continent. Fine, I said, I'm sure that TSR will
bring out supplements to detail the various regions. By detail, I
mean detail on a small enough scale so I can run a campaign. (eg.
What are the names, descriptions and locations of the inns on the
road between two close towns.) The first few supplements they seemed
to be trying to do this... but these supplements are all out of
fxxxing print! I don't give a damn what the main NPC's are in some
distant land 3000 miles from Waterdeep. I need to know what's between
Waterdeep and Silverymoon.

3) The whole Avatar mess. I'm sure Ed Greenwood cringes whenever he
hears about that fiasco.

4) The TSR policy of "take old stuff and artwork, shuffle, give new
name, add box and gouge" is particularily evident in their FR
products. How many times do I need to buy the same map of Waterdeep?
How many times do I need to be informed of Mirt's stats?

5) Stunning inconsistency. I'm always amazed how they can keep
generating totally inconsistent descriptions of major FR NPC's and
settings. My favourite example is The Yawning Portal.

6) Stupid table size maps. What the hell am I supposed to do with
these things. Useless for the players... they are not supposed to
know this info. Useless size for the DM. Ever tried to take a peek at
a 4 foot map behind a DM's screen?

7) Has anyone at TSR ever heard of an index?

To summarize. After the original boxed set, the Waterdeep supplement
and the Adventures hardback, I have not bought anything from TSR.
Zero. Nothing in 6 years. The above info I've obtained from flipping
through store copies. TSR product lies and ripoffs for Forgotten
Realms has turned me off their company forever. (And that was before
the endless, useless, large type, big margins, handbook series).

Any product written by Ed Greenwood is DEFINITELY worth getting.

Forgotten Realms Adventures
---------------------------
The FRA hardcover is a nice book -- it has numerous "new" spells, two
page descriptions and maps of most major towns and cities, and it has
info for updating 1st edition AD&D characters to 2nd edition. A
little dry to read, but works well with the 1st edition set.

The FR Adventures book was really handy.  It had lots of neat info
for converting the FR to second edition. The spell section helped to
individualize the Realms, even though many looked awfully familar to
the ones buried in the back of the 1st edition boxed set DM's
manual... Plus it adds a lot of detail about treasures and unusual
coins and gem descriptions. The only problem I had was that as
someone who bought it *before* reading the Avatar trilogy, I found
all the references to the Fall of the Avatars confusing.  However,
after reading those books, things were a lot clearer and actually
made it even more interesting.  Another point I want to make is that
I do like the fact that the super-powerful classes (IMO) like the
Barbarian, etc as well as the use of psionics were eliminated. These
two things bothered me, especially when they were abused excessively
by the players that did like them...

Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendiums (MC3 and MC11)
-----------------------------------------------------
The FR MC supplements were cool, but some of the monsters seemed to
be over specialized. I guess this makes them ideal for unique
encounters, but it sure seems like the whole MC series seems to
emphasize unusual creatures over "generic" beasties. I dunno. I guess
I find it odd that there is a much larger variety of VERY RARE
monsters instead of COMMON ones which seems to not make too much
sense on the surface...

MC3 is too general IMHO to be considered just a FR appendix.

FR MC3 was hurt by all those dinosaurs; they're neat, but I 
don't have a use for them (yet...), but in the meantime, it's hard 
to find the critters I want amid all those dinos.

The FR MCs had good content but the loose-leaf format should be
updated to the new booklet format, like the Planescape and Mystara
Monstrous Compendium Appendices.

MC11 has some nice "new" monsters in it (I've been told some are
rehashes), but quite a bit of it is useless (like the saurials).

It's always nice to have more monsters to throw around.

FR Series
---------
A lot of great stuff here, I still use many of these supplements
despite going to Second Edition. If you want a cheap version of the
City of Splendors boxed set, get FR1 -- all the pertinent information
on Waterdeep is in there. Dwarves Deep is awesome, too. It's like an
early version of the "Complete Book of.." series; used in conjunction
with the Dwarves' book one can really flesh out Dwarf characters.

One of the most consistently good series in TSR history. The only bad
products were the ones not associated with a particular land (i.e.
The Magister, Hall of Heroes, Horde Campaign).

Magister, Hall of Heroes and The Old Empires get higher ratings than
most for little bits (interesting spells, some rules). Bloodstone
Lands is pretty bad because it lacks the epic nature of the
adventure. I liked the modules but I didn't like the campaign built
around it. Most of the books had good information, but it was either
treated only superficially or spread out haphazardly all over the
book.

Draconomicon (FOR1)
-------------------
Well assembled, but it doesn't contain a lot of any real use to the
PCs, i.e. dragon's spells that they can't learn, several pages on
dragon hunting that offer no game terms, a dragon artifact that can
do nothing but bad to offer the PCs, assorted theories on draconic
evolution.  This can do a lot to flesh out dragons in your head, or
offer some ideas for module plots, but there's little that you can
actually add into your game. The little modules at the end are cute,
but of little use, unless you just plan to incorporate them into your
own material, or use them as SideTreks (tm).

I just bought the Draconomicon a few days ago, and it seems
interesting. It's definitely nice to have the second edition info on
Tiamat and Bahamut (I'm a big fan of these two, and my players *will*
encounter dragons a lot more from now on... >:). Though, it seems a
little watered down in places where it should be more detailed...

Draconomicon and Drow of the Underdark are perfect for any campaign,
not just FR. They both are top-notch material.

The Drow of the Underdark (FOR2)
--------------------------------
The Drow book is cool. Period. The only problem is that it is
*so much* information, using it to its fullest potential would
probably only be justified by basing an entire campaign around the
Underdark with emphasis on the Drow.

Excellent for PC drow and/or campaigns in Underdark. The only things
missing are the abilities of avatars, and how long it takes to regain
MR for long-time surface dwelling drow.

Atlas of the Forgotten Realms World
-----------------------------------
The Atlas was helpful because it helped to piece all of the maps
together plus a little more detail. It was also nice to see pictures
of the places that were mentioned in the various novels...

The Atlas is very useful in game play.

If they had included some more detailed maps of regions (and not only
those featured in the FR novels), it would be a great book.

Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue
-------------------------------
Actually, I give Aurora's Catalogue a 15 on the scale of 10, it's
that darn good! Run out and buy it NOW! It has EVERYthing and has
perfectly captured the feel of the early 20th century catalogues it
imitates.
Aurora's Catalogue is one of the best products TSR has put out. Long
on detail, with the right amount of fluff to keep the reading
interesting and informative.

The Catalogue was great. It helps to fill in those annoying gaps in
the phrase "you go into the store and you see for sale...uh..." It
adds a lot of flavor to shopping for PCs and gives a good general
idea of exactly what the common people in a medieval setting would
actually peddle and own.

Everything you ever wanted to know the price of, and some things you
didn't. It needs an item index though.

Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms (PG2)
--------------------------------------------
The Player's Guide is pretty awful for any experienced players at
all. I already knew most of it anyway.

I expected a _lot_ more from the Player's Guide. All it ended up
being was another copy of the main book from the setting's boxed set.

TSR should be ashamed for ever publishing the Player's Guides, any of
them. They are way too childish and poorly written.

Elminster's Ecologies
---------------------
The only thing that keeps this from being a "10" is the fact that the
covers shoud have been something other than paper.

Good product! Enough said.

Menzoberranzan Boxed Set
------------------------
I'm biased, I'm sorry, I just love Drow! I can't help it (sob).

This has enough to provide a good basis for adventuring in the
underdark, though I would have liked to see more on the outer areas
and less on House statistics (but I can see why TSR did it that way).

Ruins of Undermountain Boxed Set
--------------------------------
Lots of really, really cool ideas in a humonguous labrynthine layout.
Unfortunately, there's no connections between the placed encounters.
It's as though each separate encounter is happening in a vacuum. Can
you see a lich being content to sit in his one room, and never go
bother the bugbears down the hall?

Full of possibilities, although I would have liked to see more areas
fleshed out -- double that criticism for #2.

Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels
------------------------------------------
In comparison to the first boxed set RoUII is very poor: many
printing errors (even on the maps!), big black spaces on the maps,
bad descriptions of rooms.

Undermountain II has nothing to do with the original (much better)
set.

CRAP, CRAP, CRAP, NOTHING BUT CRAP! If anyone's really interested, I
have 14 pages worth of specific criticism on this place. It's just
loaded with errors. In some places, the errors are enough to make it
unrunnable. One section, entitled Wyllowwood, has a map, and a set of
room descriptions that do not simply disagree with each other at
times, they are in perpetual war! Billing this module as "an
adventure for use with the AD&D system" verges on fraud, since,
system aside, It's unusable. If you liked UnderMountain I, you'll
HATE UnderMountain II. There's lots more that I could say on the
subject, but if I keep going, I'll probably start foaming at the
mouth again, and that does nasty things to a keyboard. [I checked,
and he does indeed have 14 pages of specific criticism. Fortunately
for me, he had a seizure after typing in only a page, so I didn't
have to read it all. - Goth :-)]

Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels it is NOT!!! It stinks!!!
I cannot understand how the sequel can be this bad, 'cause I really
liked the first, it's one of the best adventures ever written. All of
this is my own opinion and I hope I'm not offending anyone (except
TSR).

Ruins of Undermountain II is the most disgusting product I have ever
seen.

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                              The End
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