      F I D O N E W S         Volume 18, Number 01             1 Jan 2001
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
     |  The newsletter of the     |   ISSN 1198-4589 Published by:        |
     |    FidoNet community       |   "FidoNews"                          |
     |          _                 |   1-714-639-0377     1:1/23           |
     |         /  \               |   1-714-532-1586     1:103/301        |
     |        /|oo \              |   BinkD supported both above          |
     |       (_|  /_)             |                                       |
     |        _`@/_ \    _        |                                       |
     |       |     | \   \\       |   Editor: Warren Bonner               |
     |       | (*) |  \   ))      |           editor@fidonews.org         |
     |       |__U__| /  \//       |           wdbonner@pacbell.net        |
     |        _//|| _\   /        |                                       |
     |       (_/(_|(____/         |                                       |
     |             (jm)           |   Newspapers should have no friends.  |
     |                            |                    -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
               *+*+*+*+*+* HAPPY NEW YEAR EDITION *+*+*+*+*+*+*
               Most prosperous year to ALL sysops in Fidoland!
     


                        Table of Contents
     1. HEADLINE  .................................................  1
        Happy New Year one and all !!!  ...........................  1
     2. CHAT WITH EDITOR  .........................................  2
     3. GUEST EDITORIAL  ..........................................  8
        ***WARD DOSSCHE INTERNATIONAL COORDINATOR***  .............  8
     4. LETTERS THAT CROSS THE EDITOR'S DESK  ..................... 24
     5. ARTICLES  ................................................. 32
     6. OL'WDB'S COLUMN  .......................................... 39
        -=+Ol'WDB's COLUMN+=-  .................................... 39
     7. FACTS IN HISTORY  ......................................... 48
     8. POET'S CORNER  ............................................ 54
        -=+++ Fido Poets Corner +++=-  ............................ 54
     9. HUMOR  .................................................... 56
     10. QUESTION OF THE WEEK  .................................... 60
        -=This weeks Question=-  .................................. 60
     11. ANSWERS OF THE WEEK  ..................................... 61
     12. NOTICES  ................................................. 62
     13. FIDONET BY INTERNET  ..................................... 65
     14. FIDONEWS INFORMATION  .................................... 70
        FIDONEWS INFORMATION  ..................................... 70
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 1                    1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                                 HEADLINE
     =================================================================

     ***International Coordinator Threatens Node Removal from Nodelist***

     Ok folks, first let me tell you to disregard repeated quoted text
     and concentrate on WHO is commenting to WHOM as all opinions match.
     Well almost.... Secondly, today Ward backed down and corrected the
     nodelist error he had meddled in as International Coordinator. That
     kinda short circuited this issue as it has been building for days.
     Happy and prosperous New Year to ALL!  Ed.


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 2                    1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                             CHAT WITH EDITOR
     =================================================================

     By: Bart Verhaeghe
     To: All
     Re: Ward Dossche The abuse Story.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Dear International Fidonet Sysop's. I am here to inform you of the
     abuse of Ward Dossche. Just some time ago I was a downlink of Ward.
     But the cable company was ready in Belgium so I took the cable and, I
     asked Johan Zwiekhorst (RC29) if I could poll his system instead by
     IP, That was fine for Johan and I informed Ward about my decision. But
     this was not to the liking of for Ward so he tried to trick me. * Like
     changing my password so I could not areafix to his system to
     disconnect my echomail. * Second he refuses to change his route file
     so the mail for me and my downlinks staid at his place instead of
     going to Johan Zwiekhorst. * Third after having a big discussion in
     natsysop.b he wanted to take me out of the nodelist. But in the end he
     gave in...

     Second chapter of this story: I have made friends outside Belgium like
     in R28, Z3(WWB), Z1 (animenet). I like reading a lot of R28 mail and
     such... So Mr. ward dossche was been pissed because I got r28 mail
     from the Netherlands without the need of his "historical" import of
     such (limited) mail.Again he is threatening me for removal from the
     nodelist again. He says that there is a historical rule that say's
     that the ic/zc2 has to take mail from the r28-bone. His whole mailer
     system is "historic"...no %rescan; no Msgid and he still strips
     seenbye's so his system lacks indeed dupe detection if there is
     parallel import...Several people advised him to upgrade to something
     better for mail-moving...he disregards everything except his own
     view:(

     Third Chapter of this story He made another people think I am a bad
     person by saying in a R29 area (west-vlaams.reg) with another college
     (Alfred Vossen) that he is not welcome because of his special
     Limburger accent and that's not true. All the facts are provable on
     netmail and echomail messages. Steven Leeman even wanted to write a
     story about this sick joke...

     So my dear fidonet sysop's I hope I've shed some more light on Ward
     Dossche's abusive power as ic/zc2.

     Groeten, Bart Verhaeghe Fidonet  : 2:292/907 Web-Site :
     http://tsohbbs.dyns.cx E-mail   : the-sources-of-hell-bbs@yucom.be
     Online Poll System : tsohbbs.dyn.dhs.org  , BinkP

     +32-(0)50/81.52.94 (2:292/907)

                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     (19483) Mon 25 Dec 00  9:20p By: michael kleerbaum To: Ward Dosche Re:
     Domains St:
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Ward,
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 3                    1 Jan 2001


     Is it so, that -you have been acting as the International Coordinator-
     everybody who reserved a domain name including "fido" will have to ask
     you for permission, and will otherwise be removed from the nodelist?

     Yes or no, please.

     With one sentence: You just can't remove somebody from the nodelist
     because he reserved a _national_ www domain faster than you, and even
     less if he didn't have any opportunity to establish local
     communication about the contents of the concerning site.

     Michael

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     By: Ross Cassell
     To: Steven Leeman
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Steven!

     25 Dec 00 21:13, you wrote to me:

      RC>> What demands were made to or of Steven?

      SL> give up fido.be & fidonet.be

     I suggest you not give them up, I'll give you a home in the nodelist
     if that is what it takes.

     Meanwhile Ward has set sail in his ship, let the winds blow him into
     the whirlpool.

     ==
     Ross
     E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     From: "David Hallford" <hallford@thevision.net>
     To: "Warren Bonner" <wdbonner@pacbell.net>
     Subject: Re: Steven Leeman Node Number put on HOLD by Ward
     Date: Sunday, December 24, 2000 9:59 PM

     Hi Warren!

     I agree with Joe Jared's well thought out response. The internet is
     not part of Fidonet and should never be used for any punitive action
     within Fidonet. Before I say anything deeper, I would like Ward to
     have a chance to respond.

     with warm regards, Dave

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Ed:
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 4                    1 Jan 2001


     Dave, I couldn't agree more.  When I received the Netmail from Steve
     Leeman early morning on December 22.  I at first couldn't believe I
     was reading a plea to hopefully move the Snooze into battle position.
     So I phoned Joe and told him to watch his incoming netmail, then I
     listened to see if he got the same message I did, out of the broken
     English, although the more times I read it the better I understood
     Ward Dorsche acting God was removing his ability to receive or send
     netmail.

     Joe immediately replied that Ward could not do that by policy, and the
     Domains owned by Steven were not any part of fido or policy. I said,
     "you will as my NC pass this on to Brenda"? He said he would take care
     of it. He did quite well directly to all parties. Same thing happened
     to him with King Kohl a couple of years ago, so he had a mission.
     Ol'wdb

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Steven Leeman
     To: michael kleerbaum
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello michael,

     Monday December 25 2000 22:17, michael kleerbaum wrote to
     Ross Cassell:

     mk> I can't believe, that this can happen in FidoNet 2001... :((
     mk> Ward Dosche, the Emperor of FidoNet?

     SL> I even heard someone say "little ceasar" ? :-)

     [Algemeen.b]
     From : Dave Luyten   2:292/624.63    Mon 25 Dec 00 18:24

     Ward> indeed, no discussions. You've received your extended netmail
     Ward> <point>. Ter Attention of the innocent loser : dns.be is not a
     Ward> player here, the case is handled within Fidonet. So if my
     Ward> demands are fulfilled it'll be business-as-usual, if not I wish
     Ward> the domain holder much pleasure without a nodenumber \x/@rd

     At the moment that Ward Dossche (IC) deletes a nodenumber without a
     complaint going thru the hierarchies, Ward Dossche (IC) shows
     "excessively annoying behaviour". Excessive because Ward has done it
     on purpose :-)

     In which case it'll be possible to the ZC's to undo the decision on
     this case (qualified majority).  (what's always the case , but in this
     case has the most probable solution) also Impeachment procedures will
     be possible then

     The simple case was that Ward Dossche (IC) in this case a direct
     complaint to himself Ward Dossche (IC)  but that Ward Dossche (IC)
     this complaint had to disregard without any any prenotice. This is an
     automatism because by my knowing there wasn't any complaint to begin
     with at NC level. The NC that is the immediate higher in rank of
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 5                    1 Jan 2001


     Steven in the Fidonet Hierarchies. Further complaints on the decision
     of the NC must be made by RC, ZC and IC in that order...

     Neglecting the proper order is showing "annoying behaviour". So Steven
     can draw charges against Ward Dossche (IC) by his NC. And that can
     become even stranger if  Ward Dossche (IC) has to defend himself at
     NC-level.  But that isn't the case...because Ward has operated in
     function of IC...

     And the problem that Ward Dossche (IC) raised didn't hold too much.
     The having of domain names is to no matter for the working of Fidonet.
     You have to prove that those domain names by Steven can be
     "excessively annoying" to other nodes in the network what isn't the
     case!

     And having a DNS entry is to matter at all in Fidonet. Steven is not
     "excessively annoying". The only rightful way to become owner of
     fido.be & fidonet.be is via non-fido channels. Those that were
     especially setupped for this matter. File a complaint at DNS...which
     is already spoken for by Jan "IN MY HUMBLE OPINION"  Have A
     Nice Day Dave Luyten

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Dave Hamilton
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Dave...

     Dec 25, 2000 at 14:19, Dave Hamilton wrote to Janis Kracht:

     DH> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman? Does the RCC have an opinion?

      DH> I think it's obscene.

     If things are as they were reported, I doubt you'll find many who
     disagree with you.

     I had severe misgivings about Ward. Despite all kinds of assurances
     that he was really a nice guy, my long-distance opinion has always
     been that he's a bit overwound. Nonetheless, I'd like to hear more
     from other sources, if any exist. In particular, I'd like to hear from
     Ward.

     I don't think the "in your face" approach will work with him, in any
     case; so I'd like to see this handled diplomatically.

     Regards, Jerry mailto:jerryschwartz@comfortable.com
     http://www.writebynight.com

     --- Msged/NT TE 05 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928)

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 6                    1 Jan 2001


     By: Peter Barandat
     To: Ross Cassell
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Ross,

     On 25.12.00, 15:45:38 you've sent this message in outer space.
     An alien retrieved it on Tuesday 26.12.00, 0:51:13, and replied to it.

     *Establishing connection*

     PB>> Steven has to proof that he owns the rights to buy those domains.
     Now, I'm sure that even Ward doesn't own those rights, simply because
     they don't existe, in Belgium. If Steven can't get his hands on the
     rights before thursday he will be deleted from the nodelist.

      RC> To which, WARD does not have this authority whatsoever.
     Indeed :-(

     Greets, Peter

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Joe Jared
     To: Peter Barandat
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Disclaimer: No copyright should be inferred from any portion of the
     embodiment of this message.  This message is public domain, and all
     rights have been granted to publish this document anywhere or
     everywhere.


     Hello Peter!

     Monday December 25 2000 19:50, you wrote to Ross Cassell:

      PB> Hello Ross,

     PB> On 12/25/2000, 11:46:57 you've sent this message in outer space.
     An alien retrieved it on Monday 12/25/2000, 19:28:04, and replied to
     it.

      PB> *Establishing connection*

      PB> Translated it means: The node 2:292/624 is placed on hold (as of
     PB> now) in the fidonet nodelist en will be removed during following
     PB>>> week, together with all registrations of the same person.  If
     PB>>> the sysop does not comply with former demands. RC>> What demands
     were made to or of Steven? PB> Steven has to proof that he owns the
     rights to buy those domains. PB> Now, I'm sure that even Ward doesn't
     own those rights, simply because PB> they don't existe, in Belgium. If
     Steven can't get his hands on the PB> rights before thursday he will
     be deleted from the nodelist.

     JJ> Simply put, Steven does have the right.  He has money, and has
     purchased the domains.  Ethically, I hope he does cooperate with the
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 7                    1 Jan 2001


     Zone, but nothing can be done within fidonet to force him.  This point
     needs to be clearly identified, and opposed.  It's as simple as
     Fidonet != Internet.  For the c impaired, Fidonet <> internet.  As for
     the effect this will have, first off, without the *C of the effective
     level's endorsement, the domain isn't official in my own list. Another
     point.  Fidonet cannot be copyrighted by any other entity than Tom
     Jennings.  If Ward would claim a copyright, my own argument would be
     that if anything, it was already Public domain, and that by his own
     reasoning in prior messages, he has no claim.  You cannot post-mortem
     copyright that which is in the public domain, and prior art, the
     world's first fidonet nodelist, would be the prior art challenging the
     claim of copyright.

     Spilt milk.  As a matter of precedent, fidonet.com is owned by someone
     who is almost a non-entity.  The attack at Steven is simply because he
     is close to home for Ward.

     PB> In my opinion, Ward doesn't want the proof of the registration of
     fido.  He wants those names to be erased from the dns-tables.  But why
     I ask?  Steven is committed to make something beautiful of those
     domains.  Ward hasn't got the registrations, so he can't register the
     domains... (otherwise he has to place his own pc on hold, to be
     removed within a week.... =) So?  What will he say if some dog food
     company registers the fido.be ??  Now a fido member has this domain...
     Ward should be proud!!

     When Ward asked me why I contacted Janis on this issue, the reasoning
     was simple.  The ZCC (The 5 remaining ZC's excluding the ZC who is
     IC), can overturn his ruling.  I don't see this situation as a
     resolvable one, but rather a ZCC will need to intervene on principles.
     It is however up to Mr. Leeman to appeal the IC Decision to the ZCC.
     Given that the ZC is also IC, he only gets one shot at this, so I'm
     hoping that the ZCC will act in fairness, or that Ward as IC will
     rescind his ruling.  The positions of *C above NC are typically of
     appeal, not action.  It would serve Ward well to back down from his
     current course of action, but I doubt he will.  As such, many of us
     have asked our own ZC as a member of the ZCC to rescind Ward's
     decision for him. Hopefully, the other ZC's will act in kind.


     NC 1:103 joejared@osirusoft.com

     --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1 * Origin: telnet://telnet.osirusoft.com
     (1:103/301)



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 8                    1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                              GUEST EDITORIAL
     =================================================================

                          A Sysops Plea for help
     -------- Original Message --------
     Subject: Ward Dossche
     Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:23:31 +0100
     From: "Leeman, Steven" <steven@hotrate.com>
     To: editor@fidonews.org

     what happened in Z2 last month? (eg I'm not good at articles...so this
     is just to inform you...do with it as you please) *****Note: Some
     words and spelling corrected, but little as possible. ED.

     A few weeks ago the .BE internet domain was to be liberalized; eg you
     didn't have to be a company or institute in order to get a .be domain
     name... So as a fidonetter avant la letter, I immediately started, ask
     some of my friends, to buy domain names... It was a success in
     Belgium... the dns.be crashed on the first day under the tons of
     requests :-)

     A few weeks later...Ward Dossche gets xDSL and suddenly checks at
     dns.be who had tool fido.be (eg my instinct says : 18hours before he
     found out I had send a routed messages to an R29 sysop called Pablo
     Saratxaga who is very familiar with fido.belg.* and
     z2.mail.fidonet.org MX record keeping if he could send
     f624.n292.z2.fidonet.org to my fido.be or fidonet.be account)...I and
     some other sysops have always been very suspicious about his "inside"
     information...it's all too obvious.... he's also against sysops
     connecting to other sysops although I believed fidonet policy permits
     it you may lay connections to other sysops...(as long as it's for your
     netmail only) eg it's thesame like "crashing" to them... but you lay
     it out as a standard in your routing/tosser ... why redirect it
     through 6 nodes up till IC level when you connect every damn minute to
     that other sysop's system... in the WWB Ward has already received 0 on
     his request to stop this charade... he wants to have total control on
     fidonet...

     so Ward didn't file complaint or inform me by crashed netmail.... nope
     he just emailed it to me at 18h09... to put it with his own words
     (rough translation) "I'm no sysop that'll stick at the screen reading
     mail all day until my tongue will fall of" - or something... a R28
     sysop can confirm that message... :-)

     It's also the same Ward Dossche that removed any trademark/copyright
     marks from the nodelist and it's decision was widespread in fidonews
     (1997) about that Fido/fidonet and Dog with diskette were no
     trademarks outside Zone 1... Today he shouts that he is not alone a
     Coordinator Fidonet-Belgium... HE IS THE *IC* (I can send his emails
     if you'd like... Fidopolicy doesn't handle those does it? :-) and that
     it's HIS domain name and I should give those domain names to him
     within 2 hours of his 1st email...

     he never responded to my netmails... but he states he received my
     netmail in an email with the last nodediff where i've been put on
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 9                    1 Jan 2001


     hold...this morning... he has also tried to block my domain names
     (fido.be and fidonet.be) at my registrar...which obviously refused...
     he's got a 24 page manual with smallwrite which doesn't give any
     rights to an IC of "fidonet"-WHAT? which doesn't have any jurisdiction
     affiliations in this country... (10 years ago Ward Dossche had one
     Bnet.vzw but ... it died...) so Ward Dossche had 10 years the time to
     get the .BE domain using his affiliation...

     but now a 3rd party has taken it...his worst enemy...it's my fault...?


     Even the belgian government has the same problem... www.belgie.be
     turned into DUTCH (The Netherlands) hands... a big "joke" in the
     Belgian Internet World

     ...

     I'd like your input about this subject... should I ask "asylum" in Z1
     or other zones to get relisted? my points & downlinks won't just
     switch over because of this (one of many) Ward Dosschian fights...

     the Dns.be liberalization slogan was "First Come First Serve" where
     the rule was : you didn't had to have any affiliations any more... you
     could register www.water.be without getting a lawyer of some
     Water(H20) company on your head...

     Greetz, Steven Leeman (2:292/624) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Steven Leeman To: editor@fidonews.org Re: <EXCOMMUNICATION> -Ed
     =====================================================================
     * Forwarded by Steven Leeman (2:292/624) * Area : FN_SYSOP
     ([INTERBBS]) * From : Steven Leeman, 2:292/624 (Monday December 25
     2000 01:21) * To   : All * Subj : :-)
     =====================================================================
     Hello All, does anyone still remember this fidonews article of Ward
     Dossche? hence why am I posting this?

     A few weeks ago the .BE internet domain name was liberalized...eg you
     didn't had to have a company in order to registrar your own
     domain...you could take www.yahoo.be if you wanted to have it :-)

     so I took also a few...eg www.fido.be , www.fidonet.be

     a few weeks later I get a nice email(multiple) from Ward Dossche (he
     doesn't like netmails anymore?) stating he is copyright holder and
     such of those names and asked me to dismiss ownership of those .be
     domain names...

     I send his own article to him by netmail...

     Now instead of his threats to start a DNS-complaint...he uses another
     card of his sleeve... <activate childish tone> "Although I'm not a
     Belgian Fido Coordinator...I AM THE INTERNATIONAL FIDO COORDINATOR
     <POINT>... Now free these domain names or you'll be removed from the
     nodelist...I'll await your answer in 2 hours"... the next day I was
     put on "hold" in the nodelist... next thursday I should be out of the
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 10                   1 Jan 2001


     Z2 nodelist as well...unless I free them up "I don't need a
     /polemique/" he said as last... sure every /master/ likes a slave that
     doesn't object to it's commands...

     He has spammed al my downlinks and points to inform them they should
     look for another uplink... they all ignored his netmail...even started
     a polemique on their own...

     it's not the first time Ward Dossche misuses his Nodelist-keeper
     power... eg he has already blackmailed moderators in the idle hope of
     getting moderatorship of that echo... he quotes Echopol nicely but if
     himself stands above it... no rules of his echo's; no listening to the
     rules of other echo's...; [....]
     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     Mon 31 Mar 97 9:27 By: Ward Dossche To: David Moufarrege Re: Re:
     Copyright Notice
     =====================================================================

     Hello David,

     > What is the background of your dropping the Copyright Notice of the
     > Z2-Nodelist?

     Some time ago a person wanted to write non-commercially something
     somewhere about Fido and kinda liked the art-work on the dog with the
     diskette. (name of the person escapes me, but I seem to recall a
     similar incident connected to the last Eurocon) So, truthfully
     believing Tom Jennings holds a trademark on this (as was mentioned in
     the nodelist and still is in Fidonews) he asks permission to use it,
     which Tom flatly refused.

     As I found this rather a strange reaction, out of curiosity I asked
     some of our corporate lawyers to look into the copyright- and
     trademark-issue of "Fido", "Fidonet" and the artwork of the dog-with-
     diskette. (FYI, I'm Deputy-Director at the Belgian telco, employing
     some 27,000 staff and we have acorporate-law- division who does
     nothing else than copyright and trademark stuff)

     As I so suspected for a long time, I received confirmation after
     researching relevant trademark-bureaus that no references to the above
     nor any trademark held by a Jennings Tom or Tom Jennings relating to
     Fidonet or something similarly sounding exists.

     Mark my words ... this covers the whole of Europe (east and west)
     including Israel and Turkey. It says nothing about the USA.

     We discovered however expired Fidonet-trademarks in the name of other
     individuals residing in Europe.

     A quick search was done for Japan (where ZC/6 resides) without any TJ-
     trademark. Same thing in Argentina (homebase of ZC/4) where TJ holds
     no rights but where, very puculiarly, another trademark called "Latin
     Fido" is held by a local sysop (this is also reflected in the Z4-
     nodelist).

     So let me summarize :
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 11                   1 Jan 2001


     There is _NO_ existing trademark in Europe in the name of Tom Jennings
     nor Jennings Tom for "Fido", "Fidonet" nor the "dog-with-diskette"-
     artwork.

     Then why write it in the nodelist? I don't see one single reason.

     Now let's not confuse "trademark" with "copyright".

     If TJ wants to have a trademark on all those items then as far as I'm
     concerned he can have it ... which means he must have his brand-names
     registered in each and every country - for zone-2 this means 35-
     countries to be precise - and agree to pay the periodical hefty sum on
     that. (worldwide 190+ ?)

     This he has never done, nor will he do it, nor will anyone else
     because it is just too expensive. "Control" over the nodelist can
     never warrant such a high price nor can anyone ever expect a return on
     that investment.

     If anyone ever has any bright idea here to register the trademarks to
     either "control" or "financially exploit" then I hereby post a claim
     to be first in line to laugh that person straight in his/her face.
     Less than a year ago there was the case of a company registering a
     trademark on the wording "world wide web" and "www", which mind you
     are nowhere legally protected. After initial astonishment by the
     internet-community the "owners" were quickly reduced to the laughing
     stock even while they followed correct legal procedures. They tried to
     exercise a claim and finally gave up because it was reasonably
     un-enforceable.

     With Fidonet it is exactly the same thing.

     Now one final word about "copyright". TJ does not participate in any
     way in the production of any of the nodelists nor any of the segments
     that comprise the nodelist. Hence there is not one square inch of
     legal ground for him to claim copyright over it.

     The NC's could have a copyright over net-segments, the RC's over
     region- segments and the ZC's over zone-segments. Since the ZC's also
     produce nodelists they could imo also post a copyright-notice for
     their version of the nodelist although I think all these notices carry
     little weight and are of little to no importance.

     Anyone in zone-2 having problems with the nodelist without a
     TJ-copyright/ trademark notification can always freq at this node the
     elements it takes to produce their own nodelist.

     Every current zone-2 region-segment can be freqqed here with the
     magic-name REGIONxx where xx = region number.

     On top of that every zone-segment can be freqqed here following the
     same logic : ZONEy where y = zonenumber.

     It enables everyone who wants that to build his/her own customized
     nodelist.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 12                   1 Jan 2001


     If a person e.g. only wants R24, R50 and Z3, then he/she freqs
     REGION24, REGION50, ZONE3 and gives that to his/her nodelist-compiler.
     How's that for openness, availability, service, whatever you wanna
     call it?

     If they want to include the original notice they can equally freq "TJ"
     here so that bit of information is accessible as well although it
     makes no difference.

     As a sidenote, I already received threats for a court-case by one
     Randy Bush, the same person when slamming the Fido-door shut behind
     him stated it was nothing else but a litter-box reeking of cat-piss. I
     understand some valid concerns about intentions and motives, but I do
     have a more than full-time and well payed job so I don't need to try
     to squeeze some extra pennies (at what cost?) out of some peoples
     pockets. I believe it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for
     any individual to grab control of the nodelist and make a buck out of
     it.

     If that happens then it is because the sysops allow it to happen,
     personally I would just totally ignore such a person.

     There's a lesson to be learned from our German friends who would never
     take any shit like that. This they proved after some "grab control"-
     exercises there.

     I'm more worried about the censoring of Fidonews-worldwide by a ZC
     which recently occurred and nobody reacted upon it. Weren't you aware?

     Thanks for writing. If there's more you want to ask, please do.

     Take care, \x/ard Dossche

     ZC/2

      Netmail (2:292/624.1) NETMAIL
     Msg  : 755 of 768                          Pvt K/s Trs A/s
      From : Ward Dossche             2:292/854       Fri 22 Dec 00 10:48
     To   : point                     2:292/624.1     Fri 22 Dec 00 11:03
     Subj : Status van de 2:292/624-node in Fidonet

     De sysop van 2:292/624 (jullie boss) heeft eenzijdig, zonder overleg
     en zonder enig akkoord van de copyright houder en/of zijn
     gemandateerde
     bij DNS.BE de domeinen "fidonet.be" en "fido.be" gereserveerd.

     Dergelijk usurperend gedrag wordt in een Fidonetomgeving niet
     getollereerd.

     De sysop in kwestie werd om uitleg gevraagd met inbegrip van aan te

     tonen dat hij de benodigde toelatingen heeft. Bij uitblijven van deze
     bewijsvoering wordthem vanuit de Fidonet hierarchie opgelegd dat de
     domeinen "fidonet.be" en "fido.be" opgegeven worden. De termijn voor
     hem om hierop bevredigend te reageren werd op 1 week gesteld.
     (deadline donderdag 28 december om 23h55 lokale tijd)
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 13                   1 Jan 2001


     Totnutoe kwam daar geen bevredigend antwoord op.

     Het nodenummer 2:292/624 werdt met onmiddellijke ingang op "Hold"
     geplaatst in de fidonet nodelist en zal volgende week verwijderd
     worden, samen met alle andere inschrivingen van dezelfde persoon,
     indien de sysop zich niet naar het bovenvermelde directief richt.

                    ..
     Voor jullie creeert het de bijkomende moeilijkheid dat de pointaccess
     wegvalt. Om die te behouden en verder in Fidonet aktief te blijven
     zijn er 3 scenario's:

     1) Jullie moedigen de sysop van 2:292/624, Steven Leeman, aan om zich
     bij de gestelde richtlijnen neer te leggen. Wanneer het bewijs
     geleverd werd dat de domeinen 'fidonet.be' en 'fido.be' daadwerkelijk
     verwijderd werden uit de dns-tabellen blijft alles bij het oude; 2)
     Jullie zoeken een andere sysop. Dit kan heel gemakkelijk gebeuren via
     de nodelist; 3) Jullie vragen node-status aan via een hub en worden
     volwaardige node binnen Fidonet.

        Mogelijke hubs zijn:

          * 2:292/100  (hub10010) Johan Zwiekhorst - Hasselt * 2:292/401
     (hub10040) Freddy Verrezen  - Mol * 2:292/706  (hub10070) Gilbert
     Doyen    - Brussel * 2:292/865  (hub10081) Luc Sienaert     - Mortsel
     * 2:292/854  (hub10084) Ward Dossche     - Mortsel * 2:292/2009
     (hub10200) Eric Vaneberck   - Jodoigne * 2:292/4005 (hub10400) Yves
     Hennico     - Montzen

     Ik hoop dat het allemaal zo geen vaart zal lopen maar indien de sysop
     van 2:292/624, Steven Leeman, niet inbindt en niet ingaat op de
     gestelde eisen zal bovengenoemd scenario onveranderd uitgevoerd
     worden.

     Ter info, ik ga hierover met niemand een polemiek voeren, de kaarten
     liggen zoals ze liggen.

     Met vriendelijke groeten,

       \x/@rd Dossche Fidonet International Coordinator


      Netmail (2:292/624.1)  NETMAIL
     Msg  : 754 of 768                          Pvt K/s Trs A/s
      From : Ward Dossche         2:292/854       Fri 22 Dec 00 10:28
     To   : Steven Leeman         2:292/626       Fri 22 Dec 00 11:03
     Subj : De toestand van 2:292/624 en 2:292/626
     CC: Eddy Missoul, Eddy Missoul, Tom Gay, Jacek Pielesz
     CC: Tom Laermans, Davy Verhaeghen

     Heren,

     De sysop van 2:292/624 en 2:292/626 heeft eenzijdig, zonder overleg en
     zonder enig akkoord van de coyrighthouder en/of zijn gemandateerde bij
     DNS.BE de domeinen "fidonet.be" en "fido.be" gereserveerd.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 14                   1 Jan 2001


     Dergelijk usurperend gedrag wordt in een Fidonetomgeving niet
     getollereerd.

     De sysop in kwestie werd om uitleg gevraagd met inbegrip van aan te
     tonen dat hij de benodigde toelatingen heeft. Bij uitblijven van deze
     bewijsvoering wordtopgelegd dat de domeinen "fidonet.be" en "fido.be"
     opgegeven worden. De termijn om hierop bevredigend te reageren werd op
     1 week gesteld.

     Totnutoe kwam daar geen bevredigend antwoord op.

     De nodenummers 2:292/624 en 2:292/626 werden met onmiddellijke ingang
     op "Hold"geplaatst en zullen volgende week verwijderd worden indien
     hun sysop zich niet naar de bovenvermelde directief richt.

     Gezien die sysop ineens ook de hub 2:292/10060 uitbaat waaronder
     jullie resideren zal ook deze hub uit de nodelist verwijderd worden.
     Voor jullie continuiteit binnen Fidonet wordt dan ook aangeraden om zo
     snel mogelijk met een andere hub contacten te leggen opdat dit in de
     nodelist zou weerspiegelen.

     De andere mogelijke hubs in R29 zijn:

      * 2:292/100  (hub10010) Johan Zwiekhorst - Hasselt * 2:292/401
     (hub10040) Freddy Verrezen  - Mol * 2:292/706  (hub10070) Gilbert
     Doyen    - Brussel * 2:292/865  (hub10081) Luc Sienaert     - Mortsel
     * 2:292/854  (hub10084) Ward Dossche     - Mortsel * 2:292/2009
     (hub10200) Eric Vaneberck   - Jodoigne * 2:292/4005 (hub10400) Yves
     Hennico     - Montzen

     Indien er kandidaten zijn om de hub-functie waar te nemen dan kan
     NC292 steeds beslissen om in de zone-16 een nieuwe hub te creeren
     waarnaar jullie je dan ookkunnen richten.

     Ik hoop dat het allemaal zo geen vaart zal lopen maar indien de sysop
     van 2:292/624 aka 2:292/626, Steven Leeman, niet inbindt en niet
     ingaat op de gestelde eisen zal bovengenoemd scenario onveranderd
     uitgevoerd worden.

     Ter info, ik ga hierover met niemand een polemiek voeren, de kaarten
     liggen zoals ze liggen.

     Met vriendelijke groeten,

       \x/@rd Dossche Fidonet International Coordinator


     -----------8< dns.txt ---------------------

        o     Steven Leeman,
      )/\,[_) Sysop SkyNET Bbs
      `T7 ]=[ http://welcome.to/skynetbbs (Dutch/English)
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Ward Dossche
     To: Steven Leeman
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 15                   1 Jan 2001


     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Dear Steven,

     SL> a few weeks later I get a nice email(multiple) from Ward Dossche
     (he doesn't like netmails anymore?) stating he is copyright holder and
     such of those names ...

     WD> You certainly have no problem in telling lies, do you? I wish to
     draw the attention of the active audience here to the fact that you,
     mr.Leeman, a few weeks ago intended to post an article in the Snooze
     litterally claiming that I was a racist ... in those exact words.

     WD> Since Belgium has very severe anti-Racism-laws I felt very
     strongly about that too and I still thank the person who scooped-up
     the article prior to publication because I could have been in a pretty
     nasty position owing to you.

     Another of your lies, mr. Leeman.

     SL> next thursday I should be out of the Z2 nodelist as well...unless
     I free them up "I don't need a /polemique/" he said as last...

     WD> That is absolutely correct and I wish to add that your RC, RC29
     who comes highly respected throughout the Fidonet community (he was
     one of the very first in zone-2 many years ago), concurs that the
     proposals which have been made to you are consistent with your
     behaviour and attitude.

     SL> He has spammed al my downlinks and points to inform them they
     should look for another uplink...

     WD> All your downlinks and points received a very balanced and neutral
     communication explaining their situation. That was necessary since you
     manipulated the situation by telling them you were out already, hence
     they panicked.

     Indeed, you have no problem in telling lies.

     Have a nice day and Merry Christmas anyway.

      \x/@rd
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     Subject: Re: Holding nodes for reasons outside of fidonet

     Dear Joe,

     Thank you for offering your opinion.

     Although my interference in zone-1 matters has been sollicited many
     times I have always elected to stay out of it. My advice to anyone
     being confronted with such a dillema is to act likewise since it is
     quite impossible to have the correct information.

     Nevertheless you have been quick to pass judgement based on "what"?

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 16                   1 Jan 2001


     There is an unresolved issue in zone2/R29. Steven Leeman has been
     briefed on the content of this issue and how to resolve it. It's his
     call.

     You will notice that I have left the cc's out. In this moment I don't
     believe it is productive and I would appreciate the same thing from
     everyone I talk with. It has been source for  misquoting, qouting
     out-of-context, lies, inaccuracies which start leading their own life.
     This is happening exactly now too.

     You've made a few interesting suggestions to Steven, others have as
     well. Maybe he'll listen to them and act accordingly but I can't force
     him. I'll definitely not crumble under a mail-wall as he's trying to
     provoke right now.

     You need to explain me why you suggest to bring Janis Kracht on board
     and talk about overruling. There is nothing to be overruled and the
     worst thing I could do is to start ruling on zone-1 matters, so
     likewise ....

     This matter eventually will resolve itself, but not under a
     mail-campaign. I've been executive drector at Greenpeace, I know the
     force of mail-bombing-runs and I know how to resist them.

     Don't take this as a personal comment, it isn't. Exactly because I
     hold you in high esteem from other conferences it is that I'm writing
     this +/- extended reply since my official position is that I am not
     getting into polemics. For you there's an exeption to that rule.

     Nevertheless, have a Merry Christmas,

     Ward

     -----Original Message-----
     From: Joe Jared <joejared@osirusoft.com>
     To: Ward Dossche <wd@skynet.be>
     Cc: editor@fidonews.org <editor@fidonews.org>;
     steven@hotrate.com <steven@hotrate.com>;
     steven_leeman@hotmail.com <steven_leeman@hotmail.com>
     Date: Sunday,
     December 24, 2000 22:42 Subject: Holding nodes for reasons outside of
     fidonet


     Ward:
     I just received email regarding an individual who claims his node has
     been put on hold by you.  Assuming it is legitimate, then my belief is
     that it was done outside the scope of policy and should be rescinded.

     As a victim of loss of an expired domain and the apparent theft
     thereof, I can empathize with your position, but respectfully disagree
     with your actions of holding a node hostage.  Fidonet has nothing to
     do with the internet, and unless fido has been internationally
     trademarked, no illegal activity has occurred, and no excessively
     annoying behavior can be assumed.  Therefore, I must ask that you
     rescind your hold status for Steven, and return the node to good
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 17                   1 Jan 2001


     standing.  We cannot arbitrarily make rules that effectively cause
     excommunication, nor can we reasonably assume that any position of *C
     has the right to make rules based on events outside the scope of
     fidonet.  What you're allegedly doing clearly steps beyond the realm
     of fidonet.

     As an outsider, my own inclination would be to go through the
     channels, and petition that Janis, our new Z1C, vote to overturn your
     position, assuming this situation does not resolve itself.

     Steven: In the states, no single entity owns more than one fidonet
     related domain, although it's not restricted.  Given that you
     apparently own a good portion of the fido*.be domains, you've
     effectively established a monopoly on the name.  It would be more than
     reasonable to respond positively with redelegating some of the domains
     to others with polite requests.   Granted, these domains are yours
     until they expire, and I'm quite sure that as an interim measure that
     Z2.fidonet.org could be allocated to the official Zone 2 web site, as
     mandated by either the Z2C or the IC should such a request not be met
     with acceptance on your side.  Given that fido.be appears to be a
     blank page, I personally don't see why said domain would be held
     hostage by you any more than Ward would hold your fidonet address
     hostage.

     http://relays.osirusoft.com
     http://www.osirusoft.com

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     From: "Joe Jared" <joejared@osirusoft.com>
     To: "Ward Dossche" <wd@skynet.be>
     Cc: <z1c@osirusoft.com>; "Brenda Donovan" <donovan@tnl-online.net>
     Subject: Re: Holding nodes for reasons outside of fidonet
     Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:42 AM

     Ward Dossche wrote:

     Dear Joe,

     Thank you for offering your opinion.

     Although my interference in zone-1 matters has been sollicited many
     times I have always elected to stay out of it. My advice to anyone
     being confronted with such a dillema is to act likewise since it is
     quite impossible to have the correct information.
     --------------------------

     JJ> I've been here before.  Note that I've included an alias for our
     ZC's email, as well as my RC.  This issue needs resolution, and
     neither I nor the cc's are willing to let you blackmail our zone.

     WD> Nevertheless you have been quick to pass judgement based on
     "what"?

     JJ> Based on the facts.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 18                   1 Jan 2001


     WD> There is an unresolved issue in zone2/R29. Steven Leeman has been
     briefed on the content of this issue and how to resolve it. It's his
     call.

     JJ> He has been briefed.  I believe what you wrote on the topic.
     Understand, that in our region we had to deal with a tyrant.  Note
     that Bob Kohl is no longer RC10.

     WD> You will notice that I have left the cc's out. In this moment I
     don't believe it is productive and I would appreciate the same thing
     from everyone I talk with. It has been source for  misquoting, qouting
     out-of-context, lies, inaccuracies which start leading their own life.
     This is happening exactly now too.

     JJ> I don't believe in mushrooms.  Only the interested parties are
     notified.  Brenda as RC, and Janis, our ZC elect are cc'd because they
     are interested parties.  Warren as Fidonews editor has his hands full
     and I'm sure he'll quote relevant articles on his own for this
     particular topic.  I doubt seriously that the next issue of fidonews
     will be a small one.

     WD> You've made a few interesting suggestions to Steven, others have
     as well. Maybe he'll listen to them and act accordingly but I can't
     force him. I'll definitely not crumble under a mail-wall as he's
     trying to provoke right now.

     JJ> They were suggestions only.  Obviously, if you don't endorse a
     zone level site, it won't get listed in my column of fidonews.
     Neither of us have authority over the .be zone, nor should we.

     WD> You need to explain me why you suggest to bring Janis Kracht on
     board and talk about overruling. There is nothing to be overruled and
     the worst thing I could do is to start ruling on zone-1 matters, so
     likewise ....

     JJ> She is the next and only remaining level of appeal.  Should it
     ever get to a ZCC decision, it is my hope that not only does your
     decision get overturned, but you get impeached in the process.  As
     near as I can tell, the former is 1 vote away.  You still have time to
     change your course of action.

     WD> This matter eventually will resolve itself, but not under a
     mail-campaign. I've been executive director at Greenpeace, I know the
     force of mail-bombing-runs and I know how to resist them.

     JJ> This matter could resolve itself if you rescind your ruling on the
     matter.  Anything less _will_ result in your impeachment.

     WD> Don't take this as a personal comment, it isn't. Exactly because I
     hold you in high esteem from other conferences it is that I'm writing
     this +/- extended reply since my official position is that I am not
     getting into poletics. For you there's an exeption to that rule.

     JJ> Thank you.  However, the veiled threats in your response have been
     ignored as such.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 19                   1 Jan 2001


     WD> Nevertheless, have a Merry Christmas,
     WD> Ward

     JJ>Thanks.  And in the spirit of the moment, I wish the same to you.
     Did you hear the sincerity of the words?  Whoops, that makes one of
     us. What you're doing is wrong.  I can't find any other words that
     aren't inflammatory to such a degree that you find yourself any less
     alienated, nor can I express the gravity of your actions as IC with
     any other words.  If you become enraged with my response, perhaps
     recognizing what is wrong with your decisions will redirect you as one
     of fidonet's leaders will be the greater result.

     -----Original Message-----
     From: Joe Jared <joejared@osirusoft.com>
     To: Ward Dossche <wd@skynet.be>
     Cc: editor@fidonews.org <editor@fidonews.org>;
     steven@hotrate.com <steven@hotrate.com>;
     steven_leeman@hotmail.com <steven_leeman@hotmail.com>
     Date: Sunday, December 24, 2000 22:42
     Subject: Holding nodes for reasons outside of fidonet

     JJ> Ward, I just received email regarding an individual who claims his
     node has been put on hold by you.  Assuming it is legitimate, then my
     belief is that it was done outside the scope of policy and should be
     rescinded.

     JJ> As a victim of loss of an expired domain and the apparent theft
     thereof, I can empathize with your position, but respectfully disagree
     with your actions of holding a node hostage.  Fidonet has nothing to
     do with the internet, and unless fido has been internationally
     trademarked, no illegal activity has occurred, and no excessively
     annoying behavior can be assumed.  Therefore, I must ask that you
     rescind your hold status for Steven, and return the node to good
     standing.  We cannot arbitrarily make rules that effectively cause
     excommunication, nor can we reasonably assume that any position of *C
     has the right to make rules based on events outside the scope of
     fidonet.  What you're allegedly doing clearly steps beyond the realm
     of fidonet.

     JJ> As an outsider, my own inclination would be to go through the
     channels, and petition that Janis, our new Z1C, vote to overturn your
     position, assuming this situation does not resolve itself.

     JJ> Steven, In the states, no single entity owns more than one fidonet
     related domain, although it's not restricted.  Given that you
     apparently own a good portion of the fido*.be domains, you've
     effectively established a monopoly on the name.  It would be more than
     reasonable to respond positively with redelegating some of the domains
     to others with polite requests.   Granted, these domains are yours
     until they expire, and I'm quite sure that as an interim measure that
     Z2.fidonet.org could be allocated to the official Zone 2 web site, as
     mandated by either the Z2C or the IC should such a request not be met
     with acceptance on your side.  Given that fido.be appears to be a
     blank page, I personally don't see why said domain would be held
     hostage by you any more than Ward would hold your fidonet address
     hostage.
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 20                   1 Jan 2001


     http://relays.osirusoft.com
     http://www.osirusoft.com

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: Dave Hamilton
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Dave -- on Dec 25 2000 at 14:19, you wrote:

     DH> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman? Does the RCC have an opinion?

     DH> I think it's obscene.

     I hate to say this, Dave -- but:

     I told you so. :-(

     Cheers... Dallas




     By: brenda donovan To: all Re: The IC's latest rhubarb
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Things did not settle down much before a new ruckus has arisen.

     Ward Dossche, acting as IC, has threatened a zone 2 node with
     excommunication for registering fido.be and fidonet.be. In his message
     to Steven Leeman, he used the IC title. It's sometimes tough to
     separate hats, but the messages do say IC (not Z2C).

     This is a gross abuse of position and is not condoned by anyone.
     Foremost, since registering domain names is not within the scope of
     fidonet.

     Check out Z1C and FIDONEWS echos for more info.

     I would be happy to give any threatened node a home in the nodelist
     until things can be worked out.

     There is never any excuse for this kind of behavior. There is a lot of
     talk about it and we are all waiting to hear what Mr. Dossche has to
     say for himself.

     Personally, I think he's dug himself a hole that will be hard to get
     out of, but we shall see.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: brenda donovan
     To: Frank Vest
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 21                   1 Jan 2001


     FV> If it is true. I'm not discounting anyone's belief nor arguing in
     favor of anyone. I'm just stating that when I looked at the Nodelist,
     Steve Leeman is still listed and not on "Hold" or any other status. He
     is listed as a full Node.

     FV> Of course, on the other side of the coin is... The Nodelist of Z1
     might not have the updates of Z2 in it yet. I don't know how accurate
     this might be, but inaccuracy is a possibility.

     FV> A threat ignored by the threatened party and not acted upon by the
     threatening party is just a threat, over? :-)


     BD> It is unacceptable behavior in any *C. As IC, he can bluster. But
     he is Z2C and does have an editor and does compile the zone 2 segment.

     BD> Perceived power abuse is still abusive behavior.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Carl Austin Bennett
     To: Janis Kracht
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     DH> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman?

     JK> Yes, I do.  Steven contacted me on the 22nd of December about
     this. I gave him some ideas that he might present to Ward to try to
     make things work out but I did not hear anything from Steven after
     that.  If Ward does remove Steven from the nodelist, or puts his
     listing on hold over this I definitely feel it is very wrong.

     CB> Would you have any objection to him being nodelisted in our zone
     should it become necessary due to Ward's actions?

     JK> Yes, I personally agree that removing Steven would be very wrong.

     CB> What's our next step at this point?

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: Bart Verhaeghe
     Re: Re: Ward Dossche The abuse Story.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Bart, under P4, a ZC is appointed by the RC's and can be removed the
     same way.

     I do not know if the problems arejust relatedto Belgium. I'm listening
     and seeing what Ward has to say, but as an outsider I cant do much.

     On the IC position, if the ZC's vote him out, he will no longer be IC.

     In Z1, a big storm is slowly brewing over this.  I seriouly doubt if
     any RC's in Z1 will refuse to list any Z2 site who is under threat of
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 22                   1 Jan 2001


     their nodelist entry, until all is resolved.  Ross has already made
     moves to list Steven Leeman I gather from the notes here. If you need
     a listing, lets split the forces and list you with one of the others?
     I have several nets who would be delighted I am sure, to have a few
     good nodes as long as they can establish a path to netmail them <g>.

     Check your email <G>. xxcarol

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: Carl Austin Bennett
     Re: Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     *** Quoting Carl Austin Bennett from a message to Janis Kracht ***

     CAB> Yes, I personally agree that removing Steven would be very wrong.

     CAB> What's our next step at this point?

     My *personal* stance is that I'll take the next one who needs refugee
     status, and hope the 3rd (or more if needed) all list in different
     regions here. Spread the targets and Ward cant do much if anything.
     This allows *time* to get to the root of the problem more properly for
     those sysops who are in an apparent bind.

     These listings would be temporary to keep the nodes functional, until
     it can be figured out. A few weeks is my guess?

     I don't know about you, but I lack a firm grasp of Z2 politics.

     I am also aware that the IC will probably go 'after' those of us who
     do this. That said, how bold are you?  Will R12C host a lostling if
     needed for a time to prevent loss of a sysop til it's all figured out?

     Guess I better have a long chat with Janis <G>.

                                     xxcarol
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Dale Shipp
     To: Brenda Donovan
     Re: Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      -=> On 12-25-00  15:11, Brenda Donovan <=-
      -=> spoke to Dave Hamilton about Ward Dossche <=-

     DH> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman? Does the RCC have an opinion? I think it's obscene.

      BD> It is definitely abuse of power.

     DS> But typical of his royal highness and the way he has acted over
     the past couple of years.   I am not surprised in the least. Shocked,
     horrified, but not surprised.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 23                   1 Jan 2001


                             dale (at) min (dot) net
                                   (1:261/1466)
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 24                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                   LETTERS THAT CROSS THE EDITOR'S DESK
     =================================================================

     by: Ward Dossche
     To: Warren Bonner
     Re: Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     St: Rcvd
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Warren,

     WB> You must consider carefully your words so as not to be deemed
     WB> tyrannical by using your nodelisting authority as a tool to
     WB> accomplish a non fidonet action.

     There can be debate about that (and it's not even the right conference
     to do this here but, heck, it's going to be another couple of days
     before the "IC"- conference will be all over the place, so ...).

     How to interpret this Policy-article?

     ************************* QUOTE *************************
     7.1  General
     ...
     The International Coordinator is responsible ... for negotiation of
     agreements for communication with other networks.
     ************************ UNQUOTE ************************

     Is the internet another network? "Yes, it is" ... which means it is
     IC-stuff although the writers of P4 never had that in mind (same as a
     bunch of other things).

     If I need to state an official position then it is that all sysops who
     maintain Fidonet-related internet-domains which are utilized to
     further the aim of Fidonet are strongly encouraged to continue doing
     so.

     It implies that if such domains are spotted which are not used in that
     sense action is required. An item to be taken on board in a
     policy-review?

     WD> I suggest you openly restore S.L,'s node, ...

     Not just like that ... a proposal was submitted by myself which, if
     accepted, would prompt me into restoring the node numbers to their
     former status. I have received confirmation by e-mail that there's a
     high probability this acceptance will happen in which case I will hold
     my part of the bargain. The "deal" is about ensuring that the
     affected-domains indeed will be used to the best interest of fidonet.

     WD> Offer to reimburse him for his costs in securing the fido,
     fidonet (Ic/Z2).be you are rightfully entitled to by your fidonet
     titles.  <Editor note: I meant if he applied for that domain name.>

     WD> I am unaware of such a domain nor do I feel the need for it.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 25                   1 Jan 2001


     WB> He is not obligated to GIVE you on DEMAND anything he owns outside
     of his nodelisted fido address.  An apology for (in effect),
     removing him may soften the heart with an offer of reimbursement of
     his costs which you would have to pay had you listed the
     fidoIc/Z2.be in the first place. (JMHO)

     WD> As I said, P4.7.1.2 opens a path for creative thinking on
     "obliged" (!!) or not. Definitely there will be no apology as I see no
     need for anything of that kind nor any reimbursement for something not
     requested, demanded, asked nor discussed.

     WD> The thought that this gave me is that I am frighteningly powerfull
     in a Fidonet-context. I can flick the big-finger to anyone without
     being sanctionned ... the thought never occurred to me until now.

     WD> To be removed as a ZC a referendum needs to be started by the
     IC... and there's no provision for removing an IC. Another thought for
     a policy-review? Maybe the IC should "not" be a ZC.

     WD> Personally, and that's on a side note since the situation is only
     valid in a non-North American context (which means 90% of Fidonet), I
     believe that any fidonet.xx-domain (where the xx-denotes a country)
     should be handled by the RC of the country. Please, North-Americans,
     understand that outside your realm Country=Region.

     WD> As for the others here in this and other conferences. Making a lot
     of noise and displaying obnoxious attitudes has never solved anything.
     A wall of mails doesn't impress me either and it was a simple
     Fido-point operator who made the most sense to me.

     WD> Maybe that is also an idea to be taken on board in a policy review
     ... point- operators do matter and they contribute.
     I'm closing the books here in this matter and will not communicate
     anymore via conferences to people because at this point in time the
     latency in mail- distribution might effectively thwart any solution
     and nobody's interests are served by that.

     WD> If the few remaining individuals responsible for 99% of the noise,
     call it the barroom-brawls maybe, want to continue their ranting they
     will have to understand they will not be cluttering my bandwith as I
     will not be reading them.

     Hopefully this was a satisfactory answer?

     Have a nice day,

      \x/@rd

     --- DB 1.58/001877
      * Origin: Many Glacier on ADSL now (2:292/854)

                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     By: michael kleerbaum
     To: Steven Leeman
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 26                   1 Jan 2001


     Re: FidoNet-Domains St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Steven,

     SL> likewise here...I've taken the liberty of remonstrating fido.be/
     fidonet.be without asking Ward Dossche first ... my node has been put
     on hold because of that :-|

     MK> In the german node-echo NODES.024 began these weekend a discussion
     about your "case". Many Germans have domains with "Fido" or "FidoNet".

     I think, I write for most of the nodes in Europe and the rest of
     Fidoworld, when I say, that we don't like the things, that Ward Dosche
     has done to you and we will all stand behind you.

     Everybody should be able to use Internet-Domains with "FidoNet" and
     "Fido" because we are a hobby-network and not a commercial network.

     I invite you to the nodes.024. I know, you understand german and we
     understand your mother tongue and I know, you can write in german.

     We want and need information from you about this case, because in near
     future, some web-projects about FidoNet become international, like the
     www.was-ist-fido.de-project and we DON'T want any restrictions from
     the IC and ZC/2 because it ISN'T his job to do this.

     Michael

                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Joe Jared
     To: Janis Kracht
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Janis!

     Monday December 25 2000 20:09, you wrote to Dave Hamilton:

     > Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven Leeman?

     JK> Yes, I do.  Steven contacted me on the 22nd of December about
     this. I gave him some ideas that he might present to Ward to try to
     make things work out but I did not hear anything from Steven after
     that. If Ward does remove Steven from the nodelist, or puts his
     listing on hold over this I definitely feel it is very wrong.

     Thank you.

     joejared@osirusoft.com

     --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
      * Origin: telnet://osirusoft.com (1:103/301)


     By: Janis Kracht
     To: Dave Hamilton
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 27                   1 Jan 2001


     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Dave,

     > About that message on 12-25-2000 from Ross Cassell to All:

     >> Its rather disturbing to see ones nodelisting being affected over
     >> registering internet domain names or Ward throwing his 'TITLE'
     >> around:

     >> "I am the INTERNATIONAL COORDINATOR"


     > Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven Leeman?

     Yes, I do.  Steven contacted me on the 22nd of December about this.  I
     gave him some ideas that he might present to Ward to try to make
     things work out but I did not hear anything from Steven after that. If
     Ward does remove Steven from the nodelist, or puts his listing on hold
     over this I definitely feel it is very wrong.

     >Does the RCC have an opinion?

     That I can't tell you ... most likely they have been busy with family
     today as I have been.  I've seen Ross' posts here obviously <smile>.

     > I think it's obscene.

     There is a body whose name escapes me at the moment who decides such
     issues as ownership of Domain names.. even if this body decides that
     Ward should have ownership of this domain name, Steven should not be
     removed from the nodelist. In my reply to Steven on the 22nd, I told
     him to let me know if he was removed.

     Take care,
     Janis

     --- BBBS/LiI v4.01 Flag-1
      * Origin: Prism bbs (1:2320/38)

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Darrell Salter
     To: Frank Vest
     Re: simple things                                            [1]
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Frank Vest wrote in a message to Darrell Salter:

     DS> If you follow my poor example, as the Region 12 nodelist clerk
     (head bookkeeper), that is exactly what I did.

     FV> Very good. I agree with you 100% in your actions, if not in all of
     the beliefs.

     I advocate that you are entitled to those beliefs and are free to
     exercise them as a Fidonet Sysop. I expect the same. The problem
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 28                   1 Jan 2001


     starts when someone presumes to force their beliefs on the other. I
     believe this is always wrong.

     I'd like to thank you for your reply. It was detailed and straight
     forward.

     DS> All that remains now is for someone to twist my words and try to
     shove them down my throat. I'll resist and we'll be back to where we
     were.

      FV> While I still believe that P4 is valid and offers a method of
      FV> operation for Fidonet,

     DS> Never have I claimed that you, or any other Sysop, is not free to
     believe so. I have always said that there are some good guidelines in
     P4. In this much we are agreed. The problem comes in when some Sysops
     try to force the parts of P4 I reject upon me.

      FV> it would seem that your method works/worked as well.

     DS> Yes, but I don't insist on my way for others. I expect the same
     consideration.

      FV> At the risk of inferring wrath,

     DS> I do it all the time, it ain't that bad. :-)

     FV> I see a lot of similarity in what I read in P4 of handling such an
     occurrence as the "Kari" incident and the way it was handled in R12.

      FV> Maybe we aren't that far apart after all?

     DS> Probably not, but then you may not have an axe to grind.

     Darrell

     darrell@sprk.com

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Darrell Salter
     To: Jerry Schwartz
     Re: simple things
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Jerry Schwartz wrote in a message to Dave Hamilton:

      JS> That's where Darrell could have been more helpful.
      JS> ...

     I did a good job processing the Region's nodelist submissions. The ZC
     and I did a good job and had no difficulty getting the Region 12
     nodelist submissions processed into the nodediff accurately and in a
     timely fashion. I served my term as R12C and passed the torch, just as
     the Sysops of Region 12 and I had discussed and agreed to do during my
     campaign for the R12C position. My Region is pleased and satisfied
     with my performance judging by the lack of complaint and expressions
     of gratitude I have received from the Sysops here. I thank them now
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 29                   1 Jan 2001


     publicly for giving me the opportunity to serve them and for
     supporting me. Your critical comment above notwithstanding, combined
     with the fact that you are not an R12 Sysop, leaves me to suggest to
     you that I am quite pleased and very satisfied with the job I did as
     R12C.

     Some Sysops outside of Region 12 pressured me to be the RC they wanted
     me to be. Some Sysops outside of Region 12 pressured me to do the
     things they wanted me to do. They were very much mistaken if they
     thought they could coerce me without first obtaining a mandate from
     the Sysops of Region 12, interestingly, the very people I see them now
     abusing publicly. But these things come as no surprise to me. I am
     not new to Fidonet and have witnessed this behavior in it's many
     flavors, some subtle, some not so subtle, some downright rude and
     meanspirited, many times before. I note that other RCs did not offer
     much resistance to such tactics. As an RC I submit I fared much better
     than they. Perhaps my ability to resist such pressure is but one
     reason my Region elected me in the first place. We have some very
     smart people here.

     Darrell darrell@sprk.com http://sparkys.dyndns.org

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Carol Shenkenberger wrote in a message to Darrell Salter:

     DS> If my "axe to grind" has to do with "power mongering *Cs", which,
     I be is *exactly* what I said above, then I'd say he definitely IS
     aware of it and definitely IS part of it. Don't you agree?

      CS> Yes, but your references below are specific to Z1 things that he
      CS> won't most likely know much about.

     My point is that, contrary to your statement, this shit happens in
     Zone 1 also. It's happened in the past and it happens now. You don't
     have a leg to stand on to preach to Zone 2 Sysops about the virtues of
     Zone 1. We've got our policy thumping Sysop-abusers too. If Steven is
     not aware of this, he should be before he accepts a node number here.

     What's to stop a certain Zone 1 RC from immediately filing a policy
     complaint as soon as Zone 2 Sysops are listed here in Zone 1 just like
     he did last time? Nothing.

     What's to stop the Z1C from threatening to excommunicate a Zone 1
     Sysop or a Zone 1 Region for listing out-of-Zone Sysops just like it
     happened last time? Nothing.

      CS> No, was not aware of anything recent. I have heard of the earlier
     CS> problem,

     You were aware of the earlier problem yet you claimed that node
     numbers aren't under threat of being toasted in Zone 1? Again, I'm not
     calling you a liar, merely suggesting that you are dead wrong. As a
     Zone 1 Sysop you are hardly in a position to be preaching about the
     type of abuse you claim doesn't happen here, when it obviously does.

     Yes, I have recently been the subject of a possible policy complaint
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 30                   1 Jan 2001


     by a Zone 1 Sysop and RC. The fact is, Sysops in Zone 1 will go after
     other Sysops' node numbers too. This should have been clear to you
     during the question and answer period during the recent Z1C election.

     CS> and that now most of Z1 isn't so adamant about Geo-restrictions as
     CS>it once was (which I consider overall to be good as the Geo doesn't
     CS> really 'fit' all circumstances as you know).

     I'm glad you now consider this to be good. It was my Region that was
     persecuted in this manner by a Zone 1 Sysop and a Z1C. It was my
     Region and my Region alone that stood against the Z1C.  Now you are
     also aware that very recently my own node number was also under
     threat. You'd do well to remember that this type of abuse still
     happens in Zone 1 the next time you are tempted to preach how it
     doesn't happen here.

     Darrell

     darrell@sprk.com

     http://sparkys.dyndns.org --- * Origin: Sparky's BBS
     (telnet://bbs.sprk.com) (1:229/1)

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: Ward Dossche
     Re: Re: Erratum
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     *** Quoting Ward Dossche from a message to Warren Bonner ***

     WD> ******************** ERRATUM ********************
     WD> To be removed as a ZC a referendum needs to be started by the IC..
     WD> and
     WD> there's no provision for removing an IC. Another thought for a
     WD> policy-review? Maybe the IC should "not" be a ZC.
     WD> ******************** ERRATUM ********************
     WD>
     WD> The above text in the previous message should be read as:
     WD>
     WD>"To be removed as a ZC a referendum needs to be started by the IC..
     WD>under current prevailing conditions it might be hard to find a
     WD>majority for removing an IC. Another thought for a policy-review? M
     WD>the IC should "not" be a ZC."

     CS>The IC *CAN* be removed by the ZC's. The same way they put you in,
     they can take you back out.

     Only the Z2 RC's can remove a Z2C however the IC hat is not subject to
     the Z2 RC's but the ZC's of all 6 regions.

     Watch your steps Ward. You are in deep kimchee.
                                            xxcarol

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 31                   1 Jan 2001


     By: Ian Moote
     To: MICHAEL KLEERBAUM
     Re: Statement
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     MK> IM> That doesn't make any difference to the FidoNazis.
     MK>                                             ^^^^^^^^^ Oh,
     MK> please. Come on, Ian!
     MK>
     MK> This whole case has absolute [sic] nothing to do with any nazis
     MK> [sic]! Please let them out of this discussion.

     I don't know what _you're_thinking of, Michael, but I was referring to
     fascist attitudes shared by many on FidoNet -- so many, in fact, as to
     have given birth to the word "FidoNazi".

     By "fascism" I mean "violent opposition to one's extremist viewpoint".

     Ward obviously holds an extremist viewpoint here. He is offended by
     Steven's registration of domains containing "fido" and "fidonet". His
     opposition to Steven is ostensibly because "someone else" has a
     certain amount of legal control over those terms.

     1. It is not Ward who holds this legal control.

     2. Ward is not the servicemark police.

     3. Ward has no jurisdiction over anything that Steve does outside of
     FidoNet.

     Ergo, Ward's extremist viewpoint.

     4. Ward will summarily delete Steve from the NodeList if Steve does
     not comply with Ward's personal demands which are none of his business
     anyway. This is a philosophically violent action.


     Hm. Violent opposition to an extremist viewpoint. Looks pretty fascist
     to me. Especially when you consider:

     5. There is apparently personal history between Steve and Ward, and
     this seems to be more of a motivator here than Tom Jennings legal
     rights.


     No, the more I think of it, the more the word "Nazi" seems to apply.

     Sorry. I know that it's an oft-abused word, but if the shoe fits...

     Take care and TTYL.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 32                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                                 ARTICLES
     =================================================================

     By: Ward Dossche
     To: Ross Cassell
     Re: Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Ross,

     RC> Pay attention to messages written by Steven Leeman in the FIDONEWS
     and FN_SYSOP echoes and I just read another message from a German
     sysop in FIDONEWS, lending support to LEEMANS claims.

     It seems you are miserably failing at what Fidonet is about:
     communication.

     If a person-A tells something to 10 different people, and these 10
     different people then relay it on to third sources and these third
     sources provide feed- back to you, then how many versions will you get
     and how will they sound? At the start it was one thing but I bet you
     will receive 10 different multi-color variations.

     The first thing you ought to do is get your facts straight meaning
     getting another opinion, like at the source for example, because I
     have never had a confrontation with a German sysop over this and what
     I've seen only today from German sysops was based on their quest for
     information rather than on knowledge.

     I take serious offense over your barroom-ethics and -manners. If you
     have a hangover, why waste it on me/us?

     My sympathy rather goes to a guy named Stefan Wuyts whom I'm certain
     you've never heard about. He operates a point-address at Steven
     Leeman's and at least he wasn't as mentally challenged as you are to
     set up a peer-to-peer communication in a balanced way to work-out a
     solution. A proposal to consensus and modus-vivendi was made and I
     understand it has initially not met with opposition.

     Next time you feel like jerking-off again, Ross, do it less public.
     OK? And if you've got to do it here, please squirt in another
     direction.

     RC> If any of this is true, Dossche ought to resign immediately!

     Shall I tell you where you can put such a slogan? ;-)

     Have a nice day anyway,

      \x/@rd

     --- DB 1.58/001877 * Origin: Many Glacier on ADSL now (2:292/854)



     By: David Calafrancesco
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 33                   1 Jan 2001


     To: Janis Kracht
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Janis Kracht wrote in a message to David Calafrancesco:

     > listings. What Ward has done (at least as far as I can tell from
     > Ross' cross
     > postings) is nothing short of extortion.

      JK> Well, from what I have heard from Ward, Ward is not removing

      JK> Steven's node number.  The issue of the .be domain names has been

      JK> resolved as well.

     The threat of of serious repercussions for monetary gain (A FQDN is an
     asset with a dollar value attached) is extortion. Whether the person
     doing the extorting backs down in the face of massed and reasoned
     opposition or not is irrelevant. Extortion is a crime. The threat of
     extortion is a crime as well. Someone who has sufficiently shown
     criminal type behavior should not be the international coordinator of
     this organization.

     Had Ward discussed the issues with Steven instead of moving directly
     to threats of delisting then it would not be extortion.

     As a node in this zone, I would ask that you as ZC of this zone, take
     steps to determine whether this incident is sufficient to have Ward
     removed by the ZCC as IC at the least. Abuse of power is one of the
     worst offenses one in power can commit.

     Dave Calafrancesco, Team OS/2
     dave@drakkar.org

      * Origin: Druid's Grove BBS - (914)/876-2237 (1:2624/306)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: brenda donovan
     To: michael kleerbaum
     Re: Domains
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     mk> Is it so, that -you have been acting as the International
     Coordinator- everybody who reserved a domain name including "fido"
     will have to ask you for permission, and will otherwise be removed
     from the nodelist?

     mk> Yes or no, please.

     mk> With one sentence: You just can't remove somebody from the
     nodelist because he reserved a _national_ www domain faster than you,
     and even less if he didn't have any opportunity to establish local
     communication about the contents of the concerning site.


     BD> You are correct here. He cannot excommunicate a node over
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 34                   1 Jan 2001


     something not techical and outside of fidonet. To do so is abuse of
     power!

     He should retract or resign!


      Brenda Donovan
      RC10

      * Origin: R10 RHUB - TNL Online! - FTP Mail - San Diego, CA  (1:10/3)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Dave Hamilton
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Dave...

     Dec 25, 2000 at 14:19, Dave Hamilton wrote to Janis Kracht:

     DH> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman? Does the RCC have an opinion?

      DH> I think it's obscene.

     If things are as they were reported, I doubt you'll find many who
     disagree with you.

     I had severe misgivings about Ward. Despite all kinds of assurances
     that he was really a nice guy, my long-distance opinion has always
     been that he's a bit overwound. Nonetheless, I'd like to hear more
     from other sources, if any exist. In particular, I'd like to hear from
     Ward.

     I don't think the "in your face" approach will work with him, in any
     case; so I'd like to see this handled diplomatically.

     Regards, Jerry mailto:jerryschwartz@comfortable.com
     http://www.writebynight.com

     --- Msged/NT TE 05 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928)

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                             NASCAR_CONTEST echo!
                             Bobby Queen, 1:379/5

     For those who are interested in NASCAR racing I just want to spread
     the word about our NASCAR_CONTEST echo and a little contest we hold
     every year.  This coming Feb 2001 we will be starting our 4th year in
     holding this contest in FidoNet and being gated with RaceNet and RIME.
     This past year was a poor one in people staying with the contest till
     the end of the season.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 35                   1 Jan 2001


     WE NEED FOLKS who love NASCAR and would like to guess who will win the
     pole and come in 1st thru 3rd place.  Just AREAFIX the NASCAR_CONTEST
     echo and join in.

     The rules are going to be discussed between now and February and then
     the FUN BEGINS!  Can the WOMEN beat the men again like they did in
     1999?  Or will the MEN get the best of the women like they did when
     they came back to win in 2000?

     Husbands talk your wives into joining with you and wives do likewise
     and talk your husbands into joining.  We have always had spouses
     competing against each other since our 1st year.

     So join me now in NASCAR_CONTEST and lets start the ball rolling on
     this next exciting season of NASCAR racing into the new millennium!

     ..... Atlanta to Daytona - The longest 3 months of the year!
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     *              Zone 2 participation of FidoNews.

     By: Michiel van der Vlist, 2:280/5555, pa0mmv@vrza.org

     Dear FidoNews editor,

     MV> It is no secret that the Snooze is largely dominated by
     contributions from zone 1. I noted that you encourage articles
     from other zones, albeit without much success. Under the new
     rules I could have written this article in Dutch also. I choose
     not to do so. How many people receiving FidoNews can read Dutch?
     Less than one percent I estimate. For all the others it would
     just be noise. A too high signal to noise ratio shies off the
     readers and I think this is precisely the problem with Fidonews
     as seen from outside zone 1.

     WB> Thank you for your response.  I'll try to answer your points of
     concern from an Editors viewpoint about the construction of a edition
     of the Snooze. Firstly, it is a NA newsletter, and English is the
     primary language. If others don't want to submit their articles in
     their language and English translation... that is their loss. I have
     offered to try to make space available. If you have ten times more
     sysops in Z2 as you claim, and only "one percent" read-write Dutch I
     guess the other Languages are English, french, spanish, portuguese,
     Italian and German all of whom use English as a second language. IF
     you don't want to submit, why do you bitch about it?

     MV> Why do we see so few contributions from other zones? Zone 2 in
     particular? It counts about ten times as many sysops and who
     knows how many points. The main reason for the zone 1 domination
     of FidoNews is imho the fact that it ... is zone 1 dominated.

     WB> Well Duh! If you won't participate that only leaves the ones that
     do and thus the domination.  Send me your articles in any Language
     with English translation. It isn't hard to scan down past any text in
     any Language.

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 36                   1 Jan 2001


     MV> The cure would be to *discourage* articles that are only of zone 1
     local interest.

     WB> Then what would be the need to publish the FidoNews?

     MV> In the past month we have seen an increase in the volume of
     FidoNews due to the ongoing Z1C election. Why?

     WB> Because the campaign speeches, the question and answers are the
     news not only in Zone one but to other readers in the other Zones.
     Just because you have no interest doesn't negate my responsibility
     to all the others that look to find out how we do things.

     MV> Why do the sysops in zone 1 flood the world with what for many of
     us this side of the pond is no more than bickering among the locals?

     WB> Why do you read it if you don't like it or learn something about
     the folks who submit articles?

     MV> Why can't they be content with discussing it in an appropriate
     echomail conference like we do when matters of local interest are to
     be discussed?

     WB> We do! What is reprinted in the FidoNews is only a small part, the
     high-lights, of what goes on in the many echoes.

     MV> How would you feel if the German sysops (forming a region bigger
     than zone 1) started using the snooze as a playground for their petty
     bickering over an RC24 election?

     WB> I would love for them to submit articles, we then could see how
     some problems are solved in Germany, and apply the knowledge here; and
     they may learn some tricks from us.

     MV> I confess that on several occasions I have hit the "quit editor"
     key after exclaiming "Oh no, not *another* article from someone not
     pleased with the way things go in the Z1C election.

     WB> That is the beauty of it all... everyone has the same ability to
     scan what they are interested in, and skip all that is of no value to
     them. No shame to confess there. Everyone has different tastes. some
     would love to have multi-language articles just to brush up on their
     "other" Languages... and correspond with new friends in other
     countries.

     MV> Process! The snooze is zone 1 dominated because potential
     contributors from other zones are put off by the zone 1 dominance.

     WB> Well, you have broken the ice, <BWG> and I hope we can continue to
     receive articles from you...next time on things in your Zone so it
     can have something to read about at home there!

     MV> A vicious circle. Maybe you as editor should ask what the readers
     outside zone 1 are NOT interested in seeing in the snooze.

     WB> Why? The FidoNews is for things folks are interested in!  All of
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 37                   1 Jan 2001


     the articles are interesting to some folks. None would want to know
     what you or any other individual would "NOT" like.  FidoNews is for
     everyone to peruse as they wish.

     MV> My list would be:
     1) Articles that cover topics of only local interest, such as RC
        and ZC elections. They stir some interest but after the third
        round it gets very boring.
     2) Articles in a language I can not read. The idea may be good but
        it is not going to work. The only examples of successful
        multilingual magazines I have seen are the fodder that airline
        companies feed us to keep our thoughts from hitting the ground
        at a vertical speed higher than the landing gear can take.
     3) "Tear jerkers" as Sharon Westons' "The warmth of a smile." Maybe
        in NA culture such stories are an unconditional 'go', but imnsho
        it belongs in the Salvation Army's Digest or whatever it is called.
        My response when I see it in FidoNews is: "What's it got to do
        with FidoNet?


     WB> Thank you for your candor.  I hope you submit many more articles.

     MV>I respect the tradition of FidoNews editors to publish anything not
     in violation of the (NA?) law. Maybe it is time however to review this
     policy. Maybe it is time to define the topic of FidoNews and restrict
     articles to those that are on topic.

     WB> Nope! No censorship of any submission that is acceptable in the
     perimeters established by Tom Jennings the copyright holder.

     MV> Last but not least:
     I am shocked to find out that the editor of the snooze is no
     longer POTS crash mailable. Ok, there is an alternative: Joe
     Jared at 1:103/301. I say if that is where contributions via
     POTS should go, Joe Jared is the one that should carry the
     1:1/23 aka.

     WB> Nope, there too, anything sent to 1:1/23 comes straight to me
     through my Coeditor at 1:103/301. As Coeditor he could put his name on
     the /23 address and I did ask him to do so.  Joe declined as his "name
     has nothing to do with the delivery of Netmail with file attache as
     all POTS to 1:1/23 passes through 1:103/301 to my 1:103/401 Netmail
     address. So as he pointed out to me, his name hasn't anything to do
     with the Snooze getting the submitted articles.

     Thanks for bringing that to my attention, so that I could clear it up
     for you and anyone else that may wonder what the path is.

     Regards,
     Ol'wdb, Ed.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     ++++++++++++++++++++GOOD NEWS JUST IN FROM STEVE LEEMAN++++++++++++++
     (20381) Fri 29 Dec 00 10:03p
     By: Steven Leeman
     To: All
     Re: New Nodelist
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 38                   1 Jan 2001


     St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello All,

      Friday December 29 2000 15:53, michael kleerbaum wrote to All:

      mk> 0032-16-580862     skynetbbs2.dyns.cx, Rotselaar        2:292/624
      mk> 0032-16-580862     SkyNet Bbs Line2, Rotselaar          2:292/626
      mk> The "Hold" is gone and Steven is still in the new nodelist.

     indeed...I also noticed from the nodelist (no message from Ward)

      mk> I want to thank all nodes and points in the USA, Canada, Germany,
      mk> Belgium  and the rest of FidoWorld for supporting Steven to
      MK> become a
      mk> "normal" Node  again.

     many thanks to you all!

        o     Steven Leeman,
      )/\,[_) Sysop SkyNET Bbs
      `T7 ]=[ http://skynetbbs.dyns.cx (Dutch/English)

      * Origin: SkyNet Bbs <32-(0)16-580862> (2:292/624)
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 39                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                              OL'WDB'S COLUMN
     =================================================================


     By: Warren Bonner
     To: Ward Dossche, Europe Gate (1/2)
     Re: Fidonews
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     WD> Warren,
     Thank you for your very clear message from a few days ago in
     FIDONEWS (the conference) to which I tried to provide a balanced
     follow-up which, with proper editorial intervention, might suit
     as an article.

     WB> It is one of many, many articles I have been deluged with,
     demanding my attention "for next issue".

     WD> However, my very open and defenseless attempt to write something
     within a few hours has been abused by some individuals who literally
     have quoted selectively that I've declared the IC- position is now
     cemented to my butt and I can flick the middlefinger to anyone.

     WB> I read it as a good example of flying off the handle in a snit.
     Example: `How dare anyone question my authority, as long as I am Z2C I
     am not removable from my International Coordinator position, and I can
     flip my middle-finger at everyone'.

     Also your continued claim that you have the right to "come down heavy"
     on any nodelisted sysop who has an Internet Domain with the word
     "Fido or Fidonet" in it's title, and the site displeases you.  Folks
     want to know where you get this power!?

     WD> You will recall, I hope, I was merely pointing to an obvious
     weakness in P4 now that 2 of the 6 mandates in ZCC are not exercised.
     It means under the current constellation if there were to be a voting,
     which I strongly doubt, the current IC needs to vote against himself
     in order to reach a majority.

     WB> I don't read the P4 policy guidelines exactly as you do. Not my
     call, probably because I don't know what, "It means under the current
     constellation" means... unless you mean `constitution'.

     WB> If the other ZC's Do Not agree with you, you may be out as IC. The
     guidelines set forth in P4 are not a ratified Constitution. And under
     our P4 guidelines, there is NO provision for an IC to remove a node
     from the node list. You are not a NC or RC, the only ones responsible
     for the nodelist on that level.

     WB> As far as the current Z2C voting against himself statement above,
     the current IC should disqualify himself in this kind of dispute as
     his position is the one in question.  You cant shrug it off with a
     suggestion of a "policy review perhaps".

     WD> If he is to disqualify himself from voting there cannot be a
     majority at all <period>. I pointed out this was a serious matter for
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 40                   1 Jan 2001


     concern during a policy-review.

     WB> Nope, It will not come down like you fantasize. You are only one
     of six Zones. And if through the Snooze your zone finds out what you
     are trying to do to nodes who don't give up their property at your
     demand "in two hours", and your claims to control the Internet... I'd
     be real surprised if the RCC permits you to sit in the Z2C chair.

     WD> Was I so wrong in highlighting that?

     WB> Yes. For several reasons in reasonable minds. but primarily
     because in a majority vote on anything the votes that are cast are the
     ONLY ones that count.  Abstentions and no votes do not count. You
     can't claim empty chairs for your votes. That is ridiculous.


     WD> The bottom-line for me is that instead of lending broad support
     for some contributions for Fidonews (the publication) I need now to
     revise my options and maybe start doing like Bob Satti did ...
     replying with "Good", "You think so?", "So noted", etc...

     WD> Had you done so, the threats and tyrannical actions on your part
     would still be counselled and no ill-advised action would have been
     demanded. Bob Satti would have made better use of your perceived power
     in your position in my mind. The NC's and RC's are the real powers in
     fido and make the mail flow... the ZC positions are necessary only for
     Zonal problems, the IC position is icing on the fido cake; your icing
     is no sugar and all demand.

     WD> I've been linked to the FIDONEWS conference for less than a week
     and I will soon turn it to passthru again. Unfortunately I cannot deal
     with the amount of abuse and falsifications produced by a mere handful
     of individuals, but a handful who shouts too much and talks too
     little.

     WB> Ward, you almost make me feel sorry for you except for the facts:
     1.) Only you, in your own words, threatened a nodes removal. 2.) Only
     you, in your own words, claimed Internet fido domain policing 3.) Only
     you, in your own words, "will come down heavy on any fido domain that
     is negative in any way..."

     WD> Our RC29 her in Belgium, who is a longstanding sysop and respected
     all over this 11,000-node zone, expressed yesterday he has to go back
     to the darkest days of Fidonet to find these levels of abuse and
     wickedness of which the obvious signs of bad will and manipulation for
     us reach new heights.

     WB> I respect your friend RC29, but look elsewhere for the abuse, it
     is not of the sysops making.  It is of your own abuse of perceived
     power you fantasize is yours in an IC hat. To resist your unfounded
     power is not wickedness as you are not God. To resist God would be
     wicked in all religions; but resist your abuse of power and listen to
     you accuse the lowly sysops of being wicked is ludicrous.


     WD> Yesterday, I went to work all day but I have been physically sick
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 41                   1 Jan 2001


     over this. I'm determined not to let it further affect my health, my
     family and my work ... not necessarily in that order.

     WB> For that kind of stress and worry that you suffer, I am truly
     sorry. I have been in that state back when I owned three fair sized
     companies. This however is not work induced, Ward. It is your
     determination alone to suffer it no matter what, rather than post an
     apology you owe Steven. It unfortunately has gone too far now for an
     apology to make any difference.  And claiming lordship over the
     Internet domains kinda cooked your goose. It NEVER pays to NEVER back
     off when wrong no matter what Green Peace practices.

     WD> What I mean to say, Warren, is that I am out of FIDONEWS (the
     conference) but if you need to get in touch with me you know where to
     reach me. E-mail is also accepted at wd@skynet.be.

     WB> Thanks for the article, Ward, and I enjoyed this "Chat with the
     Editor" session. I am truly sorry you couldn't take the honest
     friendly suggestions a week ago to apologize, admit an error and move
     fido on down the road to include eventual IP, URL Fidointernet.

     WD> Don't take this personal, it isn't.

     WB> No, no... I hope you don't feel my candid thoughts are worthless.

     WD> Have a nice day,

     WB> You too.

     WD>  \x/@rd

     WB> Regards,
     Ol'wdb, editor fidonewsletter, a weekly publication in fidonet.
     (Fido, fidonet is a Tom Jennings Copyright)

                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     Howdy Warren.

     Thanks for the nice reply. Feel free to put it in the snooze.

     23 Dec 28 23:39, Warren Bonner wrote to Mark Stennett:

      >> Howdy All.
      >>
      >> I left Fidonet some 6 years ago due to work and have recently
      >> come back. Prior
      >> to that I was NC, NEC and even ran the NorCal Star for a time
      >> in Net203. I
      >> remember the long distance bills and the electric bills.
      >> Breaking even was
      >> impossible. Keeping 7 386 class computers talking was a
      >> challenge. Keeping the
      >> room cool without additional technology called for ingenuity.
      >>
      >> Today, I have 80% of my 6 year old system frozen on tape and
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 42                   1 Jan 2001


      >> have been recently reading the mail in here. I have to tell
      >> ya, it appears nothing in the last 6 years has changed by
      >> reading this one single echo. Bitch, bitch, bitch. If the
      >> nodelist is any clue these days, 'we' are spending way too
      >> much time bitching about who does what when we should be
      >> talking about how we communicate in the new age. This includes
      >> the internet. Like it or not, everyone knows what AOL is. Try
      >> asking these same folks what Fidonet is. 'We' are pissing in
      >> our own pool. The average dog has a life span of 14 years.
      >> This pooch is laying on the porch watching the big internet
      >> dogs run by...
      >>
      WB> Sorry for quoting entire message, but it is worth it for
      WB> all to read and consider the wisdom of the message... wish
      WB> it had arrived an hour earlier as I have already hatched
      WB> the Snooze for this week; otherwise
      WB> it would be one of the articles... maybe even Guest
      WB> Editor's comment. How many other Mark Stennett's are out
      WB> there????

      WB> Thanks Mark, for a ray of reason in an echo dimmed by lack
      WB> of leadership in the past. A much brighter light is just
      WB> now in place
      WB> with the election of Janis Kratch to Z1C. Let us hope for a
      WB> new spirit in an old puppy... <G>

      WB> Ol'wdb

      WB> -+-
      WB> + Origin: Telnet://TheLastStop.osirusoft.com/ 1:103/401
      WB> (1:103/401)

       Later,
       Mark
       -------------------------------
       Georgetown, TX
       http://www.batcave.cc
       Private Email: na6m@hotmail.com
       -------------------------------

     --- Msged/386 4.30
      * Origin: =BATCAVE= Georgetown, TX  http://www.fidonet.cc (1:382/23)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: michael kleerbaum
     To: Alle
     Re: Statement
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Diese Mail wurde weitergeleitet

     MsgID             : 2:2432/203@fidonet fbcacb9d
     Originalabsender  : michael kleerbaum@2:2432/203
     erstellt am       : 26.12.00 um 23:34
     im Echo           : /FIDO/ENET.SYSOP
     an                : Ward Dossche
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 43                   1 Jan 2001


     Betreff           : Statement
     Kommentar         :

     -------------------------------Mail Anfang----------------------------

     Hi Ward,

     Here is the statement from the WIF-Team Germany.
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     We have written this, because in our opinion your statement is not so
     clear as it should be to give FidoNet-Users the security to make
     FidoNet- related homepages in future without fearing restrictions from
     you.

     Is it so, that -you have been acting as the International Coordinator-
     everybody who reserved a domain name including "fido" will have to ask
     you for permission, and will otherwise be removed from the nodelist?

     WD> Any sysop administering a fidonet-related internet-domain and
     doing WD> that for the sole benefit of Fido is encouraged to keep
     doing that.

     And Steven Leeman did not so?

     What has he done that you think you have the right to remove him from
     the nodelist?

     We knew Steven as a node who did many positive things related to
     FidoNet. Many Sysops in Germany including us don't believe that he
     intends doing something negative with "FIDO.BE" and "FIDONET.BE".

     Question: Will you remove Steven from the Nodelist this Friday and WHY
     do you think that you're having the right for doing this?

     Must a node communicate with you and speak with you about things NOT
     related to FidoNet? Who do you think who you are? You in your function
     as a IC or ZC have to serve FidoNet and the users of FidoNet and not
     to hinder them to make FidoNet well known in the WWW.

     We, the members of the WIF-Team have bought the domain WAS-IST-FIDO.DE
     a year ago. We have not asked any *C if this is allowed. Also we have
     no *C informed that we would do so.

     In the next year we're going do create several international versions
     of our pages.

     We are not going to ask ANYONE in FidoNet

     a) which domains we are allowed to buy b) what is allowed to be shown
     on the page.

     We won't accept any interferences or restrictions relating to the
     topic of the pages or the names of the domains by the FidoNet-*Cs

     We have created these pages to attract new members for FidoNet. We do
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 44                   1 Jan 2001


     this cause we like FidoNet. We like the things we're doing "marketing"
     for. So because we help saving Fido, we think that neither you nor
     anyone else is having a right to hinder us doing so.

     If you think someone is trying to use a "Fido" domain for something
     not related to Fidonet in any kind your only option is to speak with
     these people in a friendly manner. And even if they - being Fidonet
     members - don't agree with you, because they (e.g.) want to make a
     homepage for their dog "Fido", you have no right killing these guys
     out of the nodelist.

     For the WIF-Team Germany:

     Jens Hassler      2:2476/847 Michael Kleerbaum 2:2432/203 Tobias
     Gaertner   2:2476/847.47 Christoph Ripp    2:2432/203.10 Jan Kuehnert
     2:2487/847.14

     HTTP://WWW.WAS-IST-FIDO.DE

     --- CrossPoint v3.30.018 R * Origin: www.was-ist-fido.de: Sag's
     weiter! (2:2432/203)

                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Thom LaCosta
     To: Ward Dossche
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Ward Dossche wrote in a message to Warren Bonner:

     WD> If I need to state an official position then it is that all sysops
     who maintain Fidonet-related internet-domains which are utilized to
     further the aim of Fidonet are strongly encouraged to continue doing
     so.

     TL> But, you have no authority to direct anyone who owns a domain name
     to do anything as it pertains to the domain name.

     WD> It implies that if such domains are spotted which are not used in
     that sense action is required. An item to be taken on board in a
     policy-review?

     TL> There is no Fidonet policy that has authority over domain names.

     WD> Personally, and that's on a side note since the situation is only
     valid in a non-North American context (which means 90% of Fidonet), I
     believe that any fidonet.xx-domain (where the xx-denotes a country)
     should be handled by the RC of the country. Please, North-Americans,
     understand that outside your realm Country=Region.

     TL> What you may believe has nothing to do with the policies and
     procedures of any of the recognized registers of domain names.

     Thom LaCosta
     baltimoremd@baltimoremd.com
     http://www.baltimoremd.com/
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 45                   1 Jan 2001


     ---
      * Origin: Home of The Other Robot (1:261/1352)
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     To: Janis Kracht
     Re: Ward Dossche
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Janis Kracht wrote in a message to Dave Hamilton:

     RC> About that message on 12-25-2000 from Ross Cassell to All:

     >> Its rather disturbing to see ones nodelisting being affected over
     >> registering internet domain names or Ward throwing his 'TITLE'
     >> around:

     >> "I am the INTERNATIONAL COORDINATOR"


     RC> Do you have an opinion of Ward Dossche's treatment of Steven
     Leeman?

     JK> Yes, I do.  Steven contacted me on the 22nd of December about
     this. I gave him some ideas that he might present to Ward to try to
     make things work out but I did not hear anything from Steven after
     that. If Ward does remove Steven from the nodelist, or puts his
     listing on hold over this I definitely feel it is very wrong.

     RC> Does the RCC have an opinion?

     JK> That I can't tell you ... most likely they have been busy with
     family today as I have been.  I've seen Ross's posts here obviously
     <smile>.

     RC> I think it's obscene.

     JK> There is a body whose name escapes me at the moment who decides
     such issues as ownership of Domain names.. even if this body decides
     that Ward should have ownership of this domain name, Steven should not
     be removed from the nodelist. In my reply to Steven on the 22nd, I
     told him to let me know if he was removed.

     It's called WIPO and Ward wouldn't stand a chance to take the domains
     away. Tom Jennings on the other hand would be able to take them with a
     minimum of fuss as long as he could prove that the domains were being
     used to emulate the purposes of his copyright or to cause confusion
     over the proper domains. Seeing as how Tom Jennings doesn't own any of
     the internet domains containing FIDO or FIDONET to the best of my
     knowledge, even he wouldn't be able to change these domain listings.
     What Ward has done (at least as far as I can tell from Ross' cross
     postings) is nothing short of extortion.

     DC> I would get this kid and their entire region (probably region 28
     as well if they wanted) moved into the Z1 nodelist... keep the RCs as
     well... we can certainly use more RCs when it comes time to rewrite P4
     ;)

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 46                   1 Jan 2001


     Dave Calafrancesco, Team OS/2
     dave@drakkar.org

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Ward Dossche
     To: Malcolm Miles
     Re: Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Malcolm,

     > DR>   FYI, the FidoNet name is a Trade Mark owned by Tom
     > DR>   Jennings. No NET, REGION or ZONE owns any trademarks on
     > DR>   any names.

     > Is it? A number of people have done a trademark search and not found
       any
     > reference to a Fidonet trademark.

     I've querried the man himself and he's quite reluctant to say very
     much about
     it.

      \x/@rd

     --- DB 1.58/001877
      * Origin: Many Glacier on ADSL now (2:292/854)

                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Warren Bonner
     To: Dale Ross
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Hello Malcolm!
      >  --== On 26/12/2000 11:09:36 AM ==--
      >
      > MM> The issue in question resides solely within Zone2 and was madey
      > MM> by Ward wearing his Z2C hat.

     Nope! Check his IC hat statement.

      >
      DR> Nope, not from what I've seen. He was using his IC hat.
      >
      DR> Thanks!
      DR> Dale

     Correct, and is the reason I suggested the ZCC may be interested in
     removing him from offices he holds that impowers him to use nodelist
     update software like a double edged sword on any sysop for any reason.

     If he is willing to back off and apologize to Steve Leeman and his
     down links, perhaps a ZCC resolution may be avoided; if not, I hope
     they remove him from office just as we had to remove another abuser of
     power who wore several hats in Region 10, Zone 1 awhile back.
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 47                   1 Jan 2001


     Ol'wdb

     --- InterMail 2.29k * Origin: Telnet://TheLastStop.osirusoft.com/
     1:103/401 (1:103/401)

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: David Hallford
     To: brenda donovan
     Re: Hmmmm
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     DH> Anyone going to give Steve Leeman a node number? This certainly
     looks like a case of political asylum to me.

      > Ross offered him one earlier today.  I believe
      > Steven also got an invite from a German net.
      > It's all in the FIDONEWS echo.


     Excellent!

     --- GEcho 1.20/Pro
      * Origin: The Psychotic Submarine (1:211/103)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Ross Cassell
     To: michael kleerbaum
     Re: Your behaviour within Fidonet ...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello michael!

     25 Dec 00 22:17, you wrote to me:

      RC>> To which, WARD does not have this authority whatsoever.

     mk> But he is able to do that. Who will or can stop him from doing
     this? (to  delete Steven from the nodelist.)

     In which case, I'll list him, Ward doesn't control the corner of the
     nodelist I do.

     ==
     Ross
     E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

      * Origin: The Eastern Star [Mail Hub] - 864.573.7069 (1:18/500)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 48                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                             FACTS IN HISTORY
     =================================================================

     From: <bob@nwstar.com>
     Subject: Boxing Day
     Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 8:27 PM

                                  Boxing Day
                                (December 26th)
                             -=+by Dallas Hinton+=-

         Origins:   Few Americans have any inkling that there even is such
     a thing as Boxing Day, let alone what the reason might be for a
     holiday so named. However, before one concludes we're about to rag on
     Americentric attitudes towards other cultures,  we should quickly
     point out that even though Boxing Day is celebrated in Australia,
     Britain, New Zealand, and Canada, not all that many in those countries
     have much of a notion as to why they get the 26 of December off.
     Boxing Day might well be a statutory holiday in some of those lands,
     but it's not a well understood one.

         Despite the lively images suggested by the name, it has nothing to
     do with pugilistic expositions between tanked-up family members who
     have dearly been looking forward to taking a round out of each other
     for the past year. Likewise, it does not gain its name from the
     overpowering need to rid the house of an excess of wrappings and
     mountains of now useless cardboard boxes the day after St. Nick
     arrived to turn a perfectly charming and orderly home into a maelstrom
     of discarded tissue paper.

         The name also has nothing to do with returning unwanted gifts to
     the stores they came from, hence its common association with hauling
     about boxes on the day after Christmas.

         The holiday's roots can be traced to Britain, where Boxing Day is
     also known as St. Stephen's Day. Reduced to the simplest essence, its
     origins are found in a long-ago practice of giving cash or durable
     goods to those of the lower classes. Gifts among equals were exchanged
     on or before Christmas Day, but beneficences to those less fortunate
     were bestowed the day after.

         And that's about as much as anyone can definitively say about its
     origin because once you step beyond that point, it's straight into the
     quagmire of debated claims and dueling folklorists. Which, by the way,
     is what we're about to muddy our boots with.

         Although there is general agreement that the holiday is of British
     origin and it has to do with giving presents to the less fortunate,
     there is still dispute as to how the name came about or precisely what
     unequal relationship is being recognized.

         At various times, the following "origins" have been loudly
     asserted as the correct one:

         * Centuries ago, ordinary members of the merchant class gave
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 49                   1 Jan 2001


            boxes of food and fruit to tradespeople and servants the
            day after Christmas in an ancient form of Yuletide tip.
            These gifts were an expression of gratitude to those who
            worked for them, in much the same way that one now tips
            the paperboy an extra $20 at Christmas time or slips the
            building's superintendent a bottle of fine whisky. Those
            long-ago gifts were done up in boxes, hence the day coming
            to be known as "Boxing Day."

          * Christmas celebrations in the old days entailed bringing
             everyone together from all over a large estate, thus
             creating one of the rare instances when everyone could be
             found in one place at one time. This gathering of his
             extended family, so to speak, presented the lord of the
             manor with a ready-made opportunity to easily hand out
             that year's stipend of necessities. Thus, the day after
             Christmas, after all the partying was over and it was
             almost time to go back to far-flung homesteads, serfs were
             presented with their annual allotment of practical goods.
             Who got what was determined by the status of the worker
             and his relative family size, with spun cloth, leather
             goods, durable food supplies, tools, and whatnot being
             handed out. Under this explanation, there was nothing
             voluntary about this transaction; the lord of the manor
             was obligated to supply these goods. The items were
             chucked into boxes, one box for each family, to make
             carrying away the results of this annual restocking
             easier; thus, the day came to be known as "Boxing Day."

          * Many years ago, on the day after Christmas, servants in
             Britain carried boxes to their masters when they arrived
             for the day's work. It was a tradition that on this day
             all employers would put coins in the boxes, as a special
             end-of-the-year gift. In a closely-related version of this
             explanation, apprentices and servants would on that day
             get to smash open small earthenware boxes left for them by
             their masters. These boxes would house small sums of money
             specifically left for them.

         This dual-versioned theory melds the two previous ones together
     into a new form; namely, the employer who was obligated to hand out
     something on Boxing Day, but this time to recipients who were not
     working the land for him and thus were not dependent on him for all
     they wore and ate. The "box" thus becomes something beyond ordinary
     compensation (in a way goods to landed serfs was not), yet it's also
     not a gift in that there's nothing voluntary about it. Under this
     theory, the boxes are an early form of Christmas bonus, something
     employees see as their entitlement.

         * Boxes in churches for seasonal donations to the needy were
            opened on Christmas Day, and the contents distributed by
            the clergy the following day. The contents of this alms
            box originated with the ordinary folks in the parish who
            were thus under no direct obligation to provide anything
            at all and were certainly not tied to the recipients by a
            employer/employee relationship. In this case, the "box" in
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 50                   1 Jan 2001


             "Boxing Day" comes from that one gigantic lockbox the
             donations were left in.

         Whichever theory one chooses to back, the one thread common to all
     is the theme of one-way provision to those not inhabiting the same
     social level. As mentioned previously, equals exchanged gifts on
     Christmas Day or before, but lessers (be they tradespeople, employees,
     servants, serfs, or the generic "poor") received their "boxes" on the
     day after. It is to be noted that the social superiors did not receive
     anything back from those they played Lord Bountiful to: a gift in
     return would have been seen as a presumptuous act of laying claim to
     equality, the very thing Boxing Day was an entrenched bastion against.
     Boxing Day was, after all, about preserving class lines.

     By Dallas Hinton as told to Bob Seaborn on a cold bleak Canadian
     night.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Mike Luther
     To: Warren Bonner
     Re: Very good!
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Stewart ..

      > Fidonet is like a Little Fugue.  Sometimes a two minute
      > masterpiece,

      WB> Can you write that for piano?  I don't do guitar very well...
      WB> <Ducking for cover>  8^)

     I hope that one was tongue in cheek remark!  Grin.  It's the leading
     entry notes in the right place for Bach's Little Fugue in G!  Oh yes,
     written for organ, but playable darned beautifully on a piano..
     chuckle.

     My beloved Mother was a performing arts graduate in piano from the
     American Conservatory in Chicago back in the early '30's.  I literally
     cut my teeth on her Story & Clark upright at home.  We won't go over
     what happened next just after being caught at that.  And the first
     music I can remember hearing was that particular composition, at
     around four years of age.  She could play it *PERFECTLY*, both
     as-written, and as individually interpreted.

     Now, she's been ten years in a nursing home, totally paralyzed right
     side and total loss of speech, but still totally able to comprehend
     everything for all these years, I look longingly at that forever
     stilled right hand that I can see so vividly starting those exact
     notes.  That, while at the same time, from her and Dad's coaching and
     our culture, realizing that there is *NOTHING* that we can do to ever
     recover even one minute from the past.

     It's gone.  It isn't worth arguing about and must provide us with a
     reference framework to avoid making the same errors for today and into
     the future. That perspective has a point here in Fido, as I see it.

     Her final piano was a full Baldwin concert grand.  I can't do *NEARLY*
     the job she could on that composition.  You can spend hours and hours
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 51                   1 Jan 2001


     at just one segment, getting things just right in any complex score.
     At least that's my personal perspective.

     Some Bach does scale somewhat to guitar; not so's I can determine on
     my own Johnny Smith, the Little Fugue!  Grin.

     I see her darned near every day.  There isn't a day that goes by that
     I don't notice things.  As we grow older, I think all of us have to
     stop and wonder what's important, what we can do to make things better
     at what we dabble, not tear things apart.

     I've been in FidoNet for a while longer than her decline.

     My original post thread to Janis was as strongly complimentary as I
     could be, together with a long time understanding of how FidoNet seems
     to work.  It was positioned against where I realize we must go into
     the future - or die.

     Playing Fido is much like playing music.  It isn't a specific score we
     *HAVE* to play, exactly as the policy is written!

     I had the unbelievable good fortune when Carl Heifitz was here for a
     concert last month, to be able to attend a public two hour guest
     lecture that he gave for the local congregation.  His topic was how
     interpretation changes music, based on what our personal experiences
     bring to the score.  This from the winner of the Competition in
     Moscow, who refused to back down and played Jewish music for his
     allowable "artist's choice" piece after winning the competition there.
     He also donated his entire winnings to the families of Soviet Jewish
     persecution *WHILE* in Moscow after he won it!

     The announcer refused to announce his choice of music until, between
     she and the KGB agent coaching her, he simply said, "If you don't,
     I'll announce it personally."  They gave in.  It was twenty minutes
     before the cheering stopped because you couldn't send the whole damned
     concert hall to the Gulag...

     Sounds something like some tales of Fido to me, right?   Grin!

     Of note.  The Russian broadcast for the acceptance concert, given by
     all the contestants, was stripped of his performance, but we, courtesy
     of a live PBS feed during the event, have it available in the West!

     Sounds something like some tales of Fido to me, right?   Grin!

     During the entire two hour lecture, he would take the Stradivarius.
     He'd play certain segments of things exactly as the author wrote it.
     Then he would play it as if it were colored the way he heard it, based
     on the viewpoint of how a German Holocaust survivor would have 'heard'
     that music.  And then .. gave the concert the next day based *EXACTLY*
     on that enriched perspective of the score. His family survived it and
     he was able to actually go back and visit the family home, as well as
     actually meet the immediate neighbors of his family.....

     The arguments we have here over this and that haven't changed much in
     the last ten years in Fido.  Janis and this crew can get exactly what
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 52                   1 Jan 2001


     is needed for our future from P4 just as it stands, just as
     beautifully as I heard Bach and all the rest played, when somebody who
     really cared and really wanted to contribute to the betterment of a
     group .. did so.

     This group of RC's and Janis *HAVE* the opportunity and the ability to
     do what is necessary, in my opinion, to make something better of us,
     by interpretation, yet within the framework of what we have.  The
     majority of the RC's as little as I know of them, seem to have what I
     think it takes to do this and have, as it seems, elevated someone whom
     they feel has what is needed to do the job.

     To do it will take, as I wrote, a long time of learning in Fido, to do
     just a few minutes work and just get the job done.  I'm interested in
     seeing what decisions and efforts come out of all this before I form a
     follow-on view of where we are going.. and.. if we are going.

      WB> Can you write that for piano?  I don't do guitar very well... WB>
     <Ducking for cover>  8^)

     Yeah .....

     A long time ago I realized I don't do piano or guitar real well.  Nor
     Fido, but I try.   So I copied off the first few measures... Grin..


     Mike @ 117/3001

     --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: Ziplog Public Port (1:117/3001)

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     A Few Words From the Plagiarist
     Bert Happel
     1:2255/10

     I doubt that many who are reading this issue recall my prior FidoNews
     publication in December of 1998 (v5#51).  It was a repayment to the
     editor (Dale Lovell) for his kindness during that year's FidoCon in
     Cincinnati (I hadn't made a room reservation before leaving central
     Indiana and Dale put me up gratis in the Snooze Suite).  Little did I
     know that my seasonal drivel would become my likely source of
     immortality.

     FidoNet was only a few years old back then and echomail still new. Yet
     readership of FidoNews was fairly widespread.  The proof is on <gasp>
     the Internet.  If you perform a search on "Bert Happel" you will find
     several hits where someone has stored (and sometimes HTML prettified)
     the poem.

     I went online with The I.O. Board BBS on August 14, 1986.  The system
     was a dual-floppy Victor 9000 with 896K RAM (no, that's not a typo -
     as an IBM comparable but not a compatible, the V9 didn't conform to
     all of the PC limitations).  In the morning I'd load the BBS into a
     600K RAMdrive and use all 620K of drive A: (there's another of those
     non-compatible tweaks) for messages while all 620K of drive B: stored
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 53                   1 Jan 2001


     the online files.  Since I ran it on my apartment voice line the BBS
     was only available from 8am-6pm Monday through Friday while I was at
     work.  Within a couple months I obtained a second phone line for full
     time operation of the BBS.  Within several months I spent $1000.00 on
     a used Victor VI with a 20MB hard drive.  The BBS had more storage
     than at my office!

     The late 80's through 90's were boom times for BBSing.  After
     borrowing a friends 1200 baud modem I caught modem-fever.  After
     beginning with Fido v11 I joined IFNA and purchased a copy of Fido
     v12.  My goal was to run a reliable and friendly board.  Fancy
     graphics weren't important (and I ran Fido v12 which offered few ANSI
     graphics options).  After a year online the BBS had received 4000
     calls before I joined FidoNet as a regional independent.  For it's
     second birthday the BBS joined the Central IN Net.  The second year
     saw an additional 8000 calls and expansion to 65MB of storage.  The
     third year saw 12,000 calls to the system.

     I never pushed the technological envelope but added features as I
     could.  The BBS got a 1x CD-ROM drive in June of 1990.  In March of
     1993 the motherboard was upgraded to a 386/40 CPU (the same hardware
     it continues to use!).  In February of 1996 the BBS added a 7-disc CD
     jukebox.

     From there it has been downhill as the Internet rolled into our lives.
     The caller database peaked at over 500 callers within the previous 90
     days and 35 calls received a day.  Currently there are 3 callers
     within the past 90 days and receiving one or two calls a day.

     So after more than 14 years and 4 months online I feel it's time to
     find a new hobby.  My involvement with the BBS has declined since
     moving the system to my office three years ago.  I enjoy scanning the
     echos but faithfully read very few of them.  The BBS was a wonderful
     20th century phenomenon - and in days it will be the 21st Century.

     Operating The I.O. Board BBS allowed me to form many friendships that
     still exist today.  I wish I could thank all those who assisted me
     over the years but most of them have moved on and some have passed on.
     Some folks assisted beyond belief, some were scoundrels and one was a
     fugitive from the law.  My colleagues in Region 11 have been congenial
     and consistently worked for the betterment of FidoNet.

     I wish you all the best.  As long as FidoNet continues to serve a
     purpose in your life and the life of your callers, may you enjoy your
     system and the responsibility in operating it.

     Bert Happel Soon to be Ex-Sysop of 1:2255/10 bhappel@indy.net


                          ~~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 54                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                               POET'S CORNER
     =================================================================


     Twas The Byte Before Computing M.E.

     by Bert Happel
     (with apologies to Clement C Moore)

     Twas a week before the Millennium, when all through the house
     The BBS was inactive so I idled my mouse;
     The echomail was loaded on the hard disc with care,
     In hopes that a caller would read them there.
     The activity logs were nestled all snug in their Zips,
     They keep shrinking each week unlike my fat hips;
     And the modem was quiet, faking a rest
     Trying to remember how to run a dial-up test.
     When out of the subwoofer there arose such a clatter
     I sprang to my desk to see what was the matter.

     Away to the keyboard I flew like a flash,
     Popped open the CD and heard a loud crash.
     The lights on the crust of six inches of dust
     Gave a luster of death to a mini-tower covered with crust.
     When what to my wondering eyes did appear,
     But a miniature sleigh and the eight data registers I fear.
     With a little old driver, so lively and gloss
     I knew in a moment he still remembered DOS.
     More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
     And he whistled out and called them by name
     "Now Binkley! Now Maximus! Now MsgEd and Squish!
     On, Fido! On, BBSes! On, Dial-up Direct!
     To the top of the memory! To the top of the stack!
     Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!"
     As leaves before the wild hurricane fly,
     When they meet with an obstacle mount to the sky,
     So up on the screen the coursers they flew,
     With a sleigh full of utilities, and DOS commands too.

     As I drew back my head and was turning around,
     Out the USB port he came with a bound.
     He was dressed all in ROM, from his head to his foot,
     And his clothes were all tarnished with bytes and some soot;
     A bundle of data he had flung on his back,
     And he looked like he had a program he wanted to crack.
     His eyes -- How they twinkled! His dimples, how merry!
     His cheeks were like roses, his arms were so hairy!
     His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
     And the beard on his chin was as white as the snow;
     The stump of a pipe he held in his teeth,
     And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
     He had a broad face and a round little belly
     That shook when he laughed like a bowl full of jelly.
     He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
     And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself;
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 55                   1 Jan 2001


     A flash of the SVGA and a twist of his head
     Soon gave me to know I had a blue screen of death to dread;
     He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
     And filled all the RAM; then turned, like a jerk,
     And laying a finger aside of his nose,
     And giving a nod, in the USB port he goes.
     He sprang to the sleigh, his team they all whistled,
     And away they all flew like they had sat on a thistle.
     But I heard him exclaim, as my BBS faded out of sight,
     "Best wishes to FidoNet now that the Internet rules the night!"

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 56                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                                   HUMOR
     =================================================================

     Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000 9:32 AM

     What do you call a pregnancy that begins while using birth control?

     A misconception.
                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Donald Duck and Minnie Mouse were up in a hotel room and decided that
     they wanted to have sex. Well, the first thing Minnie asks is, "Do
     you have a condom?"  Donald says "No."  Minnie tells Donald that if
     he doesn't get a condom that they can't have sex and suggests to
     Donald that he go buy a condom. She says that maybe they sell them at
     the front desk. Donald  proceeds to go downstairs and gets to the
     front desk. He asks the hotel clerk if they sell condoms.  The clerk
     says "yes we do" and pulls one out from under the desk and gives it
     to Donald.  The clerk asks "Would you like me to put that on your
     bill?"  Donald says "NO! WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM, SOME KIND OF PERVERT?

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                   -=+BEST NEWSPAPER HEADLINES EVER+=-

      01. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
      02. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
      03. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
      04. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
      05. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
      06. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
      07. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
      08. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
      09. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
      10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
      11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
      12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
      13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
      14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
      15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
      16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
           Counter
      17. War Dims Hope for Peace
      18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While
      19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
      20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
      21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
      22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
      23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
      24. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            RULES OF FLYING

      01. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 57                   1 Jan 2001


      02. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If
      you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless
      you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get
      bigger again.

      03. Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.

      04. It's always better to be down here wishing you were up
      there than up there wishing you were down here.

      05. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on
      fire.

      06. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane
      used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually
      watch the pilot start sweating.

      07. When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever
      collided with the sky.

      08. A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A
      'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane
      again.

      09. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long
      enough to make all of them yourself.

      10. You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes
      full power to taxi to the ramp.

      11. The probability of survival is inversely proportional to
      the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small
      probability of survival and vice versa.

      12. Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain
      didn't get to five minutes earlier.

      13. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps
      talking about might be another airplane going in the
      opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that
      mountains have been known to hide out in clouds.

      14. Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal
      to the number of take offs you've made.

      15. There are three simple rules for making a smooth
      landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

      16. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of
      experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience
      before you empty the bag of luck.

      17. Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly the earth
      repels them.

      18. If all you can see out of the window is ground that's
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 58                   1 Jan 2001


      going round and round and all you can hear is commotion
      coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at all
      as they should be.

      19. In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum
      going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero
      miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.

      20. Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the
      experience usually comes from bad judgment.

      21. It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going
      forward as much as possible.

      22. Keep looking around. There's always something you've
      missed.

      23. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law.
      And it's not subject to appeal.

      24. The three most useless things to a pilot are the
      altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a
      second ago.

                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      A Man joined a big Multi National Company as a
      trainee. On his first day he dialed the pantry and shouted
      into the phone, "Get me a coffee quickly!"

      The voice from the other side responded,"You fool
      you've dialed the wrong extension! Do you know who you're
      talking to, dumbo?"

      "No", replied the trainee.

      "It's the Managing Director of the company, you fool!"

      The man shouted back, "And do you know who YOU are
      talking to, you fool?"

      "No.", replied the Managing Director.
      "Good!", replied the trainee and put down the
      phone!

                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              10 REASONS WHY BEER SHOULD BE SERVED AT WORK

      01. It's an incentive to show up.
      02. It leads to more honest communications.
      03. It reduces complaints about low pay.
      04. Employees tell management what they think, not what
           management wants to hear.
      05. Increase job satisfaction because if you have a bad job,
           you don't care.
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 59                   1 Jan 2001


      06. It eliminates vacations because people would rather come
           to work.
      07. Bosses are more likely to hand out raises when they are
           wasted.
      08. Employees work later since there's no longer a need to
           relax at the bar.
      09. Employees no longer need coffee to sober up.
      10. Sitting on the copy machine will no longer be seen as
           "gross."

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      The bank manager was in the final stages of hiring a
      cashier and was down to two final applicants -- one of which
      would get the job.

      The first one interviewed was from a small college
      in upstate New York. A nice young man, but a bit timid.

      Then he called for the second man,  "Jim Johnson!"
      Up stepped a burley young man who seemed quite sure of
      himself. "He looks like he can take care of any situation,"
      thought the manager, and decided, there and then, to hire
      him.

      He turned to the first applicant and told him he
      could go and they would let him know.

      Turning to Johnson, he said, "Now Jim, I like the
      way you carry yourself -- that's an important asset for the
      job as cashier. However, you must be precise. I noticed you
      did not fill out the place on the application where we asked
      your formal education."

      Jim looked a little confused so the manager said,
      "Where did you get your financial education?"

      "Oh," replied Jim -- "Yale."

      "That's very good ... excellent. You're hired!"

      "Now that you're working for us, what do you prefer
      to be called?"

      Jim answered "I don't care... Yim... or Mr. Yonson."

     Courtesy: * Origin: Top Hat 2 BBS (1:343/41)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 60                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                           QUESTION OF THE WEEK
     =================================================================


         *How many fido domains are on the Internet???
                  <Find answer in"ANSWER" column>.


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 61                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                            ANSWERS OF THE WEEK
     =================================================================

     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: All
     Re: Another statistic
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, All...

     A search for "fidonet" on iwon.com gives 84,556 hits. That's almost
     three times more hits than there ever were nodes.

     Somebody knows we're out here.

     Regards,
     Jerry
     mailto:jerryschwartz@comfortable.com
     http://www.writebynight.com

     --- Msged/NT TE 05
      * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     (19753) Wed 27 Dec 00  1:52a
     By: Steven Leeman
     To: All
     Re: Re: Fidonet.be / fido.be
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     et voila.... finally answer from the one "above" :-)

     Ward go home! :-)

     =====================================================================
     * Forwarded by Steven Leeman (2:292/624) * Area : NETMAIL (Netmail) *
     From : Tom Jennings, 2:292/624.666 (Tuesday December 26 2000 11:43) *
     To   : Steven Leeman * Subj : Re: Fidonet.be / fido.be
     =====================================================================
     From: tomj@wps.com To: skynet@online.be

     As long as it's not money-making or restricted access you have my
     permission to use my two trademarks, Fido and FidoNet, as long as what
     you're referring to is the open FidoNet network and protocols etc.

     Have fun!

     tomj


                         ~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 62                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                                  NOTICES
     =================================================================


     By: Ross Cassell
     To: All
     Re: FIDOPOLS
     St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     * Crossposted in Z1_ELECTION
     * Crossposted in FIDONEWS

     Hello All!

     FIDOPOLS has been restored to the backbone, contact your uplink
     for a link.

     As promised work shall begin within a couple weeks on a z1 pol
     document of sorts with sysop participation.

     ==
     Ross
     E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: All
     Re: Submission?
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Ok, new to the echo.  Lets see if this works <g>.

     24DEC2000

     Hi y'all!

     There's a new flag that has been proposed which I think we can all
     use.  It's the RVIA flag. Now the author intended to use it as a
     regular flag but I'm looking and as a 'comment' flag, that works
     without breaking anything.

     What is it?  It's a 'Route Via' flag.  It's use in R13 for now will be
     to show an alternate 'route' for those nodes who get their main feed
     from outside their local net.  This does NOT mean a node can abandon
     contacting their listed hub/NC for netmail. It will only be used if
     your NC/hub goes down and no other path to reach you is known.

     A sysop may also chose to use this information to direct specific
     routing to that node with the RVIA listing, if they so wish but no one
     is *required* to do so.  The NC/hub specifically is NOT required to
     use it under any circumstances.

     A sysop may have only 1 RVIA listing.  Use for now in R13 will be:
     ,U,RVIA:#.###.###

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 63                   1 Jan 2001


     For example:  ,U,RVIA:1:2613/404

     Which will mean that node draws from 1:2613/404 direct for echomail
     and that their uplink passes netmail to them, if it arrives at their
     site.

     This listing is allowed for net feed sites, but is intended primarily
     for end nodes.

     Grin, in R13, go-fur-it!

                                              xxcarol R13C

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                TRADEMARK NOTICE

     DR>>   FYI, the FidoNet name is a Trade Mark owned by Tom
     DR>>   Jennings. No NET, REGION or ZONE owns any trademarks on
     DR>>   any names.
     MM>
     MM> Is it? A number of people have done a trademark search and not
     MM> found any reference to a Fidonet trademark.

       All I can say is that these "number of people" did not
       try very hard

       http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=q2b2uv.2.1

       This came up as a result of a search of FidoNet at U.S.
       Trademark Electronic Search System. And here is what it
       says:

     Word Mark FIDONET Goods and Services IC 009. US 038. G & S: COMPUTER
     PROGRAMS AND ACCOMPANYING USER MANUALS. FIRST USE: 19840618. FIRST USE
     IN COMMERCE: 19840915 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial
     Number 73591035 Filing Date March 31, 1986 Published for Opposition
     May 26, 1987 Registration Number 1452977 Registration Date August 18,
     1987 Owner (REGISTRANT) JENNINGS, THOMAS DANIEL DBA FIDO SOFTWARE
     INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 2269 MARKET STREET #118 SAN FRANCISCO
     CALIFORNIA 94114 Attorney of Record THOMAS M. MARSHALL Type of Mark
     TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
     Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

     Thanks!
     Dale
     ... Ideal Australian wife:  Dumb, rich, nymphomaniac who owns a pub.
     --- DVM Editor that I am testing here at 1:379/0-1-45
      * Origin: telnet://HarborWebs.com (1:379/1.0)

                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     (20320) Fri 29 Dec 00  3:53p
     By: michael kleerbaum
     To: All
     Re: New Nodelist
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 64                   1 Jan 2001


     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi All,

      016-HUB, Rotselaar             2:292/10060       0032-16-580862
       skynetbbs2.dyns.cx, Rotselaar 2:292/624         0032-16-580862
       SkyNet Bbs Line2, Rotselaar   2:292/626         0032-16-581241
       Status Node                                  Nodeliste NODELIST.364
       Sysop  Steven Leeman
       Flags  CM,XA,ZYX,V90S,V120H,X75,ITX:
       skynetbbs@softhome.net,IBN,ITN:10023
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------

     The "Hold" is gone and Steven is still in the new nodelist.

     I want to thank all nodes and points in the USA, Canada, Germany,
     Belgium and the rest of FidoWorld for supporting Steven to become a
     "normal" Node again.

     Michael

     --- CrossPoint v3.30.018 R
      * Origin: www.was-ist-fido.de: Sag's weiter! (2:2432/203)
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 65                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                            FIDONET BY INTERNET
     =================================================================

     ------------------------------------------------------
     *Fidonet-related sites

                       . -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- .
                       |    FIDONET-RELATED SITES    |
                       ` -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- '
                          Last update:  December 29, 2000

     FidoNet
     Homepage:     http://www.fidonet.org
     FidoNews:     http://www.fidonews.org   [HTML]
                   ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/fidonet/fidonews/
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/
     Echolist:     http://www.baltimoremd.com/echolist/
     Echomail links: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidonet/fidoip.html
     SDS Files:    http://fidobbs.dk/download (Web Access to SDS)
     FTSC page:    http://www.ftsc.org/
     General:      http://www.writebynight.com/fidonet.html

     Zone 1:       http://www.z1.fidonet.org
       Region 10:  http://www.r10.org
         Net 102   http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/net102.htm
         Net 103:  http://www.webworldinc.com/club103/
         Net 203:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8687/net203index.html
       Region 11:  http://oeonline.com/~garyg/region11/
        Net 2410:  http://www.vector.11.com/net2410/
       Region 12:  http://sparkys.dyndns.org
       Region 13:  http://www.net264.org/r13.htm
         Net 264:  http://www.net264.org/
         Net 275:  http://www.homershut.net/~mahoover/net275/
       Region 14:  http://www.ouijabrd.com/region14
         Net 282:  http://www.rxn.com/~net282/
       Region 15:  <vacant>
       Region 16:  <vacant>
       Region 17:  http://www.region17.net
         Net 140:  http://www.nwstar.com/~net140
       Region 18:  http://techshop.pdn.net/fido/

       Region 19:  http://bise.tzo.com/r19
         Net 124:  http://www.dallasinet.com/net124
                   http://texoma.net/~flv
         Net 130:  http://www.startext.net/homes/net130
         Net 393:  http://www.chatter.com/~wb/

     Zone 2:       http://www.z2.fidonet.org
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/zone2 (Z2 nodelists etc.)
       Region 20:  http://www.fidonet.pp.se (in Swedish)
       Region 23:  http://www.fido.dk (in Danish)

       Region 24:  http://www.swb.de/personal/flop/gatebau.html (German)
                   http://www.was-ist-fido.de/
         Fido-IP:  http://home.nrh.de/fido/ (English/German)
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 66                   1 Jan 2001


       Region 25:  http://www.literary.freeserve.co.uk/net2502/
       Region 26:  http://www.nemesis.ie
          REC 26:  http://www.nrgsys.com/orb
       Region 27:  http://telematique.org/ft/r27.htm
       Region 29:  http://www.rtfm.be/fidonet/  (French)
                   http://Welcome.to/skynetbbs/
       Region 30:  http://www.fidonet.ch  (German)
     ? Region 33:  http://www.fidoitalia.net  (Italian)
       Region 34:  http://www.pobox.com/cnb/r34.htm  (Spanish)
           REC34:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4552/
       Region 36:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7207/
       Region 38:  http://public.st.carnet.hr/~blagi/bbs/adriam.html
       Region 41:  http://www.fidonet.gr (Greek/English)
       Region 42:  http://www.fido.cz
     !    Net422:  http://www.fido.sk (Slovak/English)
       Region 50:  http://www.fido7.com/  (Russian)
        Net 5010:  http://fido.tu-chel.ac.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5015:  http://www.fido.nnov.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5028:  HTTP://5028.nordnet.ru/
        Net 5030:  http://kenga.ru/fido/  (Russian & English)
        Net 5049:  http://www.n5049.z2.fidonet.org  (English/Russian)
        Net 5074:  http://www.z2.n5074.fidonet.net
     ??  Net 5085:  http://www.fidonet.uz/ (Russian)

     Zone 3:       http://www.z3.fidonet.org

     Zone 4:
       Region 80:  http://fidobrasil.8m.com  (Portuguese)
       Region 90:
         Net 904:  http://members.tripod.com/~net904 (Spanish)

     Zone 5:       http://www.eastcape.co.za/fidonet/

     Zone 6:       http://www.z6.fidonet.org
       Region 65:  http://www.cfido.com/fidonet/cfidochina.html
                   (Chinese)


                          Fidonet Via Internet Hubs

     See also: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidoip.html

     a @ preceding an individual's name implies a virtual email
     address. The email is translated as follows
     firstlast@osirusoft.com will automatically route to the
     appropriate individual's email.  Anyone in this list will
     also receive routed notice of this feature.  In my case, it
     would still be joejared@osirusoft.com, but you get the idea.

     Also, as information is provided to me, I will be adding a
     latency field to each node, which is defined as the maximum
     time between when the message is received, and when it is
     sent on to other nodes, or available to be sent onward,
     defined in minutes. A latency of ! implies that there is an
     immediate response, and an attempt to deliver immediately
     after processing, or a "MinuteMail System", as it were.
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 67                   1 Jan 2001


                v-email flag firstnamelastname@osirusoft.com
                | email address or
     Node#      | Operator          | Facilities (*) | Speed,| Basic Rate
                |                   |                |latency|
     -----------+-------------------+----------------+-------+------------
     Zone 1     |                   |                |       |
       10/3     | Brenda Donovan    | FTP,UUE,BinkP  | 384K,30| n/c
       10/345   @ Todd Cochrane     | FTP,BinkP,VMOT | T1,!  | n/c
       13/25    @ Jim Balcom        | FTP            | 56k   | $20mo.
       18/500   @ Ross Cassell      | FTP, BinkP     |128K+,!| n/c
      19/68     | Ben Ritchey       | UUE:BFDS       | 33.6k | n/c
      103/5     @ Mark Luetger      | BinkP          | 384k,!| n/c
      103/153   @ Michael Box       | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      103/301   @ Joe Jared         | BinkP,FTP,NFS  | 384k,!| n/c
      103/401   @ Warren Bonner     | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      105/8     | Russ Johnson      | FTP,BinkP,VMoT | 384k  | n/c
      105/72    @ Larry James       | FTP, BinkP     | aDSL  | $50/yr
      106/1     @ Steve Loupe       | BinkP, FTP     | 128k  | ???
      106/6018  | Lawrence Garvin   | FTP, VMoT      | aDSL,60| n/c
      107/453   @ Jeffrey Estevez| FTP,BinkP,VMoT,UUE| 56k,60| $10 mo.
      140/1     @ Bob Seaborn       | FTP,BinkP      | T3,30 | $5/$16
      167/133   | Stephen Monteith  | BinkP          | 128k+ | n/c
      211/417   @ Korombos          | BinkP,UUE,FTP  | T1    | n/c
      220/10    | groberts@nexusbbs.net |BinkP,FTP,UUE|1.5M+ | n/c
      218/109   @ Matt Munson       | BinkP,UUE      | 33.6k | n/c
      246/160   @ Mason Vye         | FTP, UUE       | 56K   | n/c
      249/116   | Carl Austin Bennett | FTP, UUE    |ADSL,60 | n/c
      280/169   | Brian Greenstreet | FTP            | 33.6  | $2mo.
      342/3     @ Richard Dodsworth | BinkP,FTP      | 128K+ | n/c
      395/670   | Arthur Stark      | BinkD,FTP      | CABLE | n/c
      379/1     @ Dale Ross         | FTP, BinkP,UUE | 256K+,! n/c
      396/1     @ John Souvestre    | FTP,VMoT       | T1,10 | $5/mo
      396/45    | Marc Lewis        | UUE            | 33.6  | $26/yr
     2604/104   @ Jim Mclaughlin    | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 33.6  | $1mo
     2613/404   @ David Moufarrege  | BinkP,FTP,VMoT | 128k+,!| n/c
     2624/306   | David Calafrancesco  | VMoT        | 33.6  | n/c
     3407/4     @ jyates@bsdi.ldl.net | UUE,FTP            | 28.8  | n/c
     3632/84    | Robert Todd    |FTP,VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 57.6k | n/c
     3651/9     @ Jerry Gause       | FTP,VMoT       | 33.6  | $3/$6
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 2     |
       20/11    | Henrik Lindhe     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
       31/1     | Gabriel Plutzar   | BinkP          | T1+   | n/c
      203/600   | Mikael Karlsson   | UUE            | 64k   | n/c
      221/360   @ Tommi Koivula     | BinkP,UUE      | ???   | n/c
      236/205   @ Michael Kaaber    | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      246/2098  | Volker Imre       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      280/1601  @ Jeroen VanDeLeur  | FTP,UUE        | 64k   | n/c
      292/620   | Eddy Missoul      | VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 64k   |N/C
      292/624   | Steven Leeman     | UUE          | 64k     | N/C
      292/907   | Bart Verhaeghe    | BinkP,VMoT,UUE | 64K   | n/c
      292/2003  | Eric Vaneberck    | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      301/1     | Peter Witschi     | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      332/807   | Roberto Mascolo   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      335/535   @ Mario Mure        | BinkP,VMot,UUE | 64k   | n/c
      335/610   | Gino Lucrezi      | UUE            | 33.6  | n/c
     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 68                   1 Jan 2001


      344/201   | Julio Garcia      | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      346/3     @ Carlos Navarro    | UUE            | ???   | n/c
      382/100   | Sinisa Burina     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Ofir Michaeli &   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Marius Kaizerman  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      423/81    | Milos Bajer       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      465/204   | Va Milushnikov    | BinkP          | 33.6k | n/c
      469/84    | Max Masyutin      | VMoT           | 256k  | n/c
      480/112   | Adam Sarapata| FTP, VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 128k  | n/c
      550/4077  | Serguei Trouchelle| UUE            | ----- | n/c
     2411/413   @ Dennis Dittrich   | UUE,BinkP      | 64k   | n/c
     2446/301   @ Lothar Behet      | BinkP,VMoT,UUE,FTP | 64K   | n/c
     2474/275   | Christian Emig    | UUE            | 64k   | unkn
     5030/115   | Andrey Podkolzin  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5100/8     | Egons Bush        | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5020/1159  | Gennady Kudryashoff | UUE          | 33.6  | n/c
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 3
      633/260   @ Malcolm Miles     | FTP,BinkP      | 64K   | n/c
      640/954   | Rick Van Ruth     | FTP,VMot,UUE,BinkP| 56K| n/c
      774/605   @ Barry Blackford|BinkP,VMoT:10023,ifcico,FTP |33.6| n/c

     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 4
      801/161   @ Renato Zambon     | UUE            | 33.6  |n/c
      905/100   | Fabian Gervan     | VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 128k  | n/c
      902/18    | Javier Tejedor    | UUE            | 33,6  | n/c

     --
     * FTP   = Internet File Transfer Protocol
     * VMoT  = Virtual Mailer over Telnet (various)
     * UUE   = uuencode<->email type transfers
     * BinkP = front end mailer for TCPIP networks
     * NFS   = Linux Networking
     ----------------------------------------------
     Fidonet oriented news servers

     news.osirusoft.com
     news.tardis.net

     Fidonet oriented chat rooms.

     room #fidonet  5PM (PDT 11AM GMT) Sundays
     irc.osirusoft.com  (Peers wanted)

     ----------------------------------------------

     Please send updates, corrections and suggestions to
     Joe Jared, 1:103/301, joejared@osirusoft.com.  All email addresses
     here for purpose of corresponding with fidonet members about
     obtaining a feed.  Improper use of the virtual email addresses, and
     most especially, email addressed to blockme@relays.osirusoft.com
     will be considered a request to be blocked by my open relay spam
     stopper at http://relays.osirusoft.com


     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 69                   1 Jan 2001


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 70                   1 Jan 2001


     =================================================================
                           FIDONEWS INFORMATION
     =================================================================

     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --  FIDONEWS STAFF - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                             |
     | Editor:     Warren D. Bonner, 1:1/23, editor@fidonews.org   |
     | Webmaster:  Jim Barchuk, jb@fidonews.org                    |
     | Columnist:  Joe Jared, 1:103/0, joejared@osirusoft.com      |
     |             (Fido Via Internet Hubs column)                 |
     | Columnist:  Ol' WDB, 1:103/401, fidonews@netscape.net       |
     | Humor:      Chuckles & Grins, emailed to editor             |
     | Sites Bio:  Frank Vest, 1:124/6308.1                        |
     |             (The best site of the week)                     |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -  EDITORS EMERITI - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                             |
     |       Tom Jennings, Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince      |
     |       Perriello, Tim Pozar, Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees,    |
     |       Christopher Baker, Zorch Frezberg, Henk Wolsink,      |
     |       Doug Meyers                                           |
     |                                                             |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

     "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
     trademarks of Tom Jennings, P.O. Box 410923, San Francisco, CA
     94141, and are used with permission.

     Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of Fidonet.
     Fidonews is Copyright (C) 2000 by Warren Bonner, though authors
     retain rights to their contributed articles.  Opinions expressed
     by theauthors is strictly their own.  Noncommercial duplication
     and distribution within Fidonet is encouraged.  Authors are
     encouraged to send their articles in ASCII text to:
     Warren Bonner at one of his addresses above.


     The weekly edition of Fidonews is distributed through the file
     area FIDONEWS, and is published as echomail in the echo FIDONEWS.
     These sources are normally available through your Network
     Coordinator. The current and past issues are also available from
     the following sources:

     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -  FIDONEWS AVAILABILITY - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                                |
     |         Freq FIDONEWS @ 1:140/1, or 1:396/1                    |
     |         ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/                     |
     |         ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/fidonet/fidonews/                 |
     |         http://www.fidonews.org                                |
     |         email subscription: majordomo@fidonews.org             |
     |                         (subject: help body: list)             |
     |         ftp mail: ftpmail@fidonews.org (subject: help)         |
     |                                                                |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

     FIDONEWS 18-01               Page 71                   1 Jan 2001


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