[06:15] *** vipah changes topic to '[06:10] <Raschid> Buz: someone who admires and respects art. I'm a hacker ethicist, and a poet myself.'
[06:18] *** Raschid (Raschid@AC951455.ipt.aol.com) has joined #!ethics
[06:18] <4B4B4BRaschid> Amusing, Vipah. ;)
[06:19] <4B4B4Bvipah> so, will you launch a lecture on hacker ethics for us please?
[06:20] <4B4B4BRaschid> No problem at all.
[06:20] *** Raschid thinks
[06:21] *** vipah sets mode +v Raschid 
[06:21] <4B4B4BRaschid> Thanks.
[06:21] <4B4B4Bvipah> you can continue now, Raschid
[06:21] <4B4B4Bytcracker> *opening notepad
[06:21] <4B4B4Bytcracker> *
[06:21] <4B4B4BRaschid> One sec. Sub's asking me something in the other channel. ;)
[06:21] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: you actually interested?
[06:22] <4B4B4Bvipah> yes, we're discussing this topic about week in here
[06:23] *** Raschid nods
[06:23] *** sub (sm@infant.mutilation.org) has joined #!ethics
[06:23] <4B4B4Bsub> I'm listening
[06:23] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, continue please
[06:23] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> hey raschid :)
[06:23] <4B4B4BRaschid> Very well. I'll do it here.
[06:23] <4B4B4BRaschid> Evening.
[06:24] <4B4B4Bsub> evening
[06:24] *** ehg (~ghostdog@pyrg364-isdn-a036.otenet.gr) has joined #!ethics
[06:24] <4B4B4BRaschid> Alright. I'll start again for those who haven't caught up on what I said earlier.
[06:25] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, so what is ethics for you. describe your vision! yes, please do
[06:25] <4B4B4BRaschid> To make the introducion: My name's Raschid. I run the group called Warzael Zarcae. Basically, we're hacker apologists (scholars who defend an action through logic/rhetoric). We're also a group dedicated to the instatement of a new breed of hacker in the underground community: the hacker paladin. 
[06:26] *** spid0r (spid0r@jdsl244.bois.uswest.net) has joined #!ethics
[06:26] <4B4B4Bspid0r> lets hear it
[06:26] <4B4B4BRaschid> We're all familiar with the example of white/black hat hackers. This, in my opinion, is a poor example. People are not often so easily classified. What we need is a closer societal model. And after all, not everyone in the Wild West with a gun was good or bad...they weren't on either side.
[06:26] <4B4B4Bcyb_> heh
[06:26] <4B4B4BRaschid> The closer societal model is the Middle Ages. 
[06:26] *** swissphil (normal@rjberts.cus.ilstu.edu) has joined #!ethics
[06:27] *** Cannot join #hack (you need an invitation)
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[06:27] <4B4B4BRaschid> In this time period, only the nobility or their direct servants can possesses the the means to defend themself. This is similar to the hacker community today, when the common man or woman cannot defend themself against the everyday run of the mill hacker, or even script kiddie.
[06:27] *** buz- (~ROOO@xd84b5cb9.ip.ggn.net) has joined #!ethics
[06:27] <4B4B4Bbuz-> hey vipah
[06:27] <4B4B4Bsub> So, you see it as a war of good against evil?
[06:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> With a better societal model, I've looked for a solution to the problem: my deep personal romanticism leads me to the area of Arthurian ethics. I have a fascination with the Templar knights, King Arthur's men.
[06:28] *** vipah sets mode +o buz- 
[06:28] <4B4B4Bbuz-> vipah i need ops for 3 seconds
[06:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> Sub: Basically.
[06:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> However, we try every peaceable means possible.
[06:28] *** Raschid has been kicked by buz- (<syn> Fuck this guy :D)
[06:28] *** buz- sets mode -o buz- 
[06:28] *** gayh1tler sets mode -o+b buz- *!*ROOO@*.ggn.net 
[06:28] *** buz- has been kicked by gayh1tler (.)
[06:28] *** Raschid (Raschid@AC951455.ipt.aol.com) has joined #!ethics
[06:28] <4B4B4Bmephitic> haha
[06:28] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> sorry about that raschid
[06:28] *** vipah sets mode +v Raschid 
[06:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hey Buz: if you dislike it, why not try  defeating it in open debate?
[06:29] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rather than resort to the tactics of the child and coward.
[06:29] <4B4B4BRaschid> O_o
[06:29] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, sorry Raschid. this guy went insane
[06:29] <4B4B4Bmephitic> he got banned rashchid
[06:29] <4B4B4Bspid0r> lol
[06:29] *** mmhh (c25d18txar@user-vcauko8.dsl.mindspring.com) has joined #!ethics
[06:29] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> dont let that happen again vipah
[06:29] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> raschid is speaking
[06:29] <4B4B4Bvipah> sorry =(
[06:29] <4B4B4Bvipah> I wont..
[06:29] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> Raschid i kick banned him
[06:29] <4B4B4Bmmhh> i'm so happy to be happy to be happy
[06:29] <4B4B4BRaschid> As I was saying. It's not good versus evil. What we need in a new generation of hackers is people of honor; virtue. People concerned with servant leadership. 
[06:29] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> don't worry about him any longer
[06:29] *** gayh1tler sets mode +m 
[06:29] *** gayh1tler sets mode +v Raschid 
[06:30] *** vipah sets mode +v spid0r 
[06:30] <4B4B4Bspid0r> +v? man you mnow me
[06:30] <4B4B4Bspid0r> fuck it im not gonna op beg
[06:30] <4B4B4Bspid0r> carry on
[06:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> I've never made any hiding of my motive: I'm a Christian, and my deep study of my faith has led me to try to band people together to try and create a new class in the underground devoted to defending common people through attempting to change the underground societally, in their hearts, and in writing defensive programs for the common user.
[06:31] *** vipah sets mode +o spid0r 
[06:31] <4B4B4Bvipah> ez nigguh ;]
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[06:31] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i really agree with alot of what you are saying raschid
[06:31] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> please, keep lecturing
[06:31] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's a revolution! We need a complete change of heart in the underground; something new to bring, instead of the same old "We hate the government, we hate this, that, blah blah blah."
[06:31] *** SOLARIS_s (~joe@CPE0050fc21ed3f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #!ethics
[06:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> Everyone talks about change, but no one actually wants to do it. We're stuck in a rut as a people, afraid to try something really new: restraint, and honor.
[06:32] *** mephitic (mephitic@oc12-core-router.co.uk) has left #!ethics 
[06:32] *** Raschid shrugs
[06:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> Should I continue? Thoughts, comments?
[06:32] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, do you think that moral development is important in the hacker underground?
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> yes please continue
[06:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: absolutely.
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i really agree, the underground must unite and bind together
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> we could accomplish so much
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> in this world
[06:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> You can't be a moral hacker and not be a moral human being a well.
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> if we just put our strength together and become an almighty power, it can happen
[06:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> You can't say "oh, this is bad in cyberspace" but not try to be honorable in real life.
[06:33] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> yes that is so true
[06:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's hypocritcal, and it's poison to the soul.
[06:33] <4B4B4Bspid0r> raschild: i dont hack but you got a point with that shit
[06:34] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i try to live a good life on earth and on cyberspace
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> Spidor: I don't either. ;)
[06:34] *** mmhh is now known as plusVpls
[06:34] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> raschid please continue.. :)
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> I'm the only Zarcadian who's not a programmer....
[06:34] *** plusVpls is now known as mmhh
[06:34] <4B4B4Bspid0r> whoa
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> Heh.
[06:34] *** vipah sets mode +v mmhh 
[06:34] <4B4B4Bspid0r> im just a drug addict who goes on irc lol
[06:34] <4B4B4Bmmhh> YAYAYA
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> I was actually going to go to h2k2 and talk about it....but I didn't have money. :(
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> And I got an invite to speak at Defcon. :D
[06:34] <4B4B4BRaschid> But again, depends if I can get cash or not.
[06:35] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> well, i am going to defcon
[06:35] <4B4B4Bmmhh> you should +v my brilliant friends cstone and swissphil
[06:35] <4B4B4BRaschid> Moral development is important. More than that, I'd say spiritual development is imporant. Ethics is good, but anyone can override their conscience. True conviction of heart comes from the soul.
[06:35] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> and would LOVE to see you speak there
[06:35] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's be interested.
[06:35] <4B4B4BRaschid> I need to talk to DarkTangent if I'm going....I'd like to do a worship service.
[06:36] <4B4B4BRaschid> It'd be a first for Defcon. =]
[06:36] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> wow, right on ya that would be amazing
[06:36] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i would definitly attend
[06:36] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> :)
[06:36] <4B4B4BRaschid> Heh.
[06:36] <4B4B4Bmmhh> VBEG
[06:36] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, so what is you saying we just gotta make them start develop moraly, but how is that possible in the world of today gothic hackers and hacker-thugs?
[06:36] <4B4B4Bmmhh> Very Big Evil Grin!!!
[06:36] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: persuasion.
[06:36] <4B4B4Bspid0r> raschid: im going to defcon...are you gonna speak?
[06:36] <4B4B4BRaschid> They do it because they know no better.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> Show them something greater, something more honorable, give them a reason to want to be greater than what they *are*, and they'll follow.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> Spidor: I don't know if I can.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> Timothy Lawless has invited me ot go.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> *to go.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> And he's been pushing me to speak.
[06:37] <4B4B4BRaschid> But I don't know if I'd be allowed, frankly.
[06:38] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, we tried to start lectures before here but peple were like "STFU#$!@ETHICS SUX! I ROOT UR BOXEN!!KTHX! LEAVE!!!" you have any ides about changing people's feelings about ethics and moral development?
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[06:38] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> lawless? the anti-lkm writer? i forget the name
[06:38] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> great guy and great coder
[06:38] <4B4B4BRaschid> (Tim Lawless is Zarcadian, and spoke last yet).
[06:38] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: St. Jude. ;)
[06:38] <4B4B4BRaschid> Yeah. Tim's like family.
[06:38] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: it's an almost endless fight.
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[06:38] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> is there a way to become zarcadian ?
[06:38] <4B4B4Bmmhh> I appreciate you guys for your unique properties.
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: it's a mindset, for the most part. Technically, you can "be" Zarcadian, right now.
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> But as far as being in the group.....it's an invite thing. :)
[06:39] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> ah i see..
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> We try to keep it to people we've gotten to know, so that we can insure the quality of the group.
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> But by all means, hang out with us.
[06:39] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> well that's what i meant, i've always been ethical
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> We're all very open/friendly people. :D
[06:39] <4B4B4BRaschid> We're on Undernet, in #zarcae
[06:39] <4B4B4Bmmhh> i'm ethical because i always swallow
[06:39] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> but being in a group to code/achieve common goals/disucss, would be very great in my life
[06:39] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> ah cool raschid i will join in a bit :)
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[06:40] <4B4B4BRaschid> Anyone opped is Zarcadian. All guests are voiced (though when most of us are sleeping, we get slack, heh).
[06:40] <4B4B4BRaschid> We also try to encourage artistic development in the underground.
[06:40] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, but how do I force blackhat hacker to accept ethics?
[06:40] <4B4B4BRaschid> An intelligentsia is a stagnant one if it focuses only on one subject, or one thing.
[06:40] <4B4B4Bmmhh> I'M ARTISTIC CAN SOMEOBODY GIVE ME SOME MONEY PLS
[06:40] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i've done some solaris/irix/ lkm's, proof of concept hacker utils
[06:41] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: learn your arguments inside and out. Undertsand why you believe what you believe,a nd be prepared all the time to defend it.
[06:41] *** vipah sets mode -v mmhh 
[06:41] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> and some anti-hacker utils like noexec patches
[06:41] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i think i would be perfect for the group :)
[06:41] <4B4B4BRaschid> Also, be an example of what you teach. Don't just talk about it. Do it.
[06:41] *** mmhh is now known as SADFACE
[06:41] <4B4B4BRaschid> Most people will respect that. If they don't, then one can only pray that their heart is eventually softened. 
[06:41] *** Raschid shrugs
[06:41] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> raschid, how would you say the scene is going? is it becoming ethical or becoming more of a satanic force?
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[06:41] *** vipah sets mode +o nwonknu 
[06:41] <4B4B4BRaschid> Zarcae isn't a "Christian" group. A lot of us *are* Christian, but we don't demand anything of our members. ;)
[06:42] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> nwonknu!
[06:42] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: neither. It is a force of men, as falliable as men will always be.
[06:42] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, I am trying to.. all the way but must people don't listen to that.
[06:42] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> great words, yes i agree
[06:42] <4B4B4BRaschid> And prone as it always is to manipulation by either side.
[06:42] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: it's like anything.....few people will join; many will pay lip service. 
[06:42] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> raschid where is the zarcadian webpage i forget?
[06:43] <4B4B4BRaschid> People want the glory, without the pain.
[06:43] <4B4B4BRaschid> www.zarcae.org
[06:43] <4B4B4BRaschid> but it's not up right now. :(
[06:43] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, tell me more about your understanding of the perfect ethical group!
[06:43] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> why not?
[06:43] <4B4B4BRaschid> And a lot of our writings aren't up, as we update the site.
[06:43] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> want me to mirror it for you? or host it? while it is down?
[06:43] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> ok :--)
[06:43] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: works for me.
[06:43] *** SOLARIS_s (~joe@CPE0050fc21ed3f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has left #!ethics 
[06:44] <4B4B4BRaschid> You'd have to get up with our webmaster, though.
[06:44] <4B4B4BRaschid> chomp@anent.com
[06:44] <4B4B4BRaschid> You can get up with me at cogitoesum@yahoo.com
[06:44] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> ok cool thanks
[06:44] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i will email him in a few
[06:44] *** vipah sets mode -m 
[06:44] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> alrighty :)
[06:44] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: a good ethical group...
[06:44] *** Raschid thinks
[06:45] <4B4B4Behg> hey Raschid, why not sell the bible while at it and make defcon money?
[06:45] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's one that's close to a family, where you're accountable to each other, and genuinely trying to live in discipleship and holiness, and helping each other maintain your focus.
[06:45] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: heh.
[06:45] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> ehg = eye hate god?
[06:46] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> thats is mean ehg..
[06:46] <4B4B4BRaschid> As a secular group, I'd say the perfect ethical group doesn't exist. No perfect ethical group exists. But the best approximation we'll see of one I guess is one where you're always concerned for the weaker.
[06:46] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, but what is the focus? how do I make people understand what ethics is, what they should do and what not?
[06:46] <4B4B4Behg> dude, lets discuss bands later, let our friend raschid get on with his speech
[06:46] <4B4B4BRaschid> "For the three greatest virtues are these: hope, faith, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 
[06:47] <4B4B4BRaschid> That's the tenents of our group.
[06:47] <4B4B4Behg> love as in sexual love or the mental kind?
[06:47] <4B4B4Beckis_> u sure thats not from ultima?
[06:47] <4B4B4BRaschid> Mental, spiritual, whatever. :)
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[06:47] <4B4B4Beckis_> how did lusta get in ur group anyhow, she was @#zarcae b4 so shes obviously quite Zarcaedian
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> Love doesn't mean you have to like someone. It's simply wishing the best of others, and working for their betterment.
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> !?!?!?
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> No way.
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> You're serious?
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> Lusta was never Zarcadian.
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> She hates Zarcae.
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> Passionately. 
[06:48] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> um, i would like to make a statement here
[06:48] <4B4B4BRaschid> She must have grabbed the room at some point before we registered it.
[06:48] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> lusta made love with u4ea, who is in fact a satan worshiper, she hangs in #thelema
[06:48] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> i think she is a demon infiltrating your group
[06:48] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> just a wod of caution..
[06:48] <4B4B4Bcstone> hahaha lusta
[06:49] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> word, ok bbl
[06:49] <4B4B4Beckis_> Raschid: no.. the Great Zarcae Hacker Paladin OpenSorce ops her
[06:49] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ahhh
[06:49] <4B4B4BRaschid> I haven't seen OpenSorce in a while....
[06:49] <4B4B4BRaschid> He's been MIA for about six months, as far as we're concerned.
[06:49] <4B4B4Beckis_> hes getting nullrouted
[06:49] <4B4B4BRaschid> If he's staying one of us, then he's doing it from a distance. :)
[06:49] <4B4B4Beckis_> because i h8 god
[06:49] *** raids (chris@HSE-Montreal-ppp507691.qc.sympatico.ca) has joined #!ethics
[06:49] <4B4B4BRaschid> Eckis: which is?
[06:49] *** SADFACE (c25d18txar@user-vcauko8.dsl.mindspring.com) has left #!ethics 
[06:50] <4B4B4Behg> his love for the satan worshipper killed him
[06:50] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, so.. is they any known hackers which are Zarcaedian, what are some achievements of your group?
[06:50] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> stfu eckis
[06:50] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> shit i got up for a second
[06:50] <4B4B4BRaschid> Timothy Lawless is Zarcadian. He's written St. Michael and St. Jude, which are intrusion resilency programs.
[06:50] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> and theres so much dialouge
[06:50] <4B4B4BRaschid> He gave a talk at defcon 10
[06:50] <4B4B4BRaschid> Chomp, and Ian are Zarcadians; they work on encryption algorithms.
[06:51] <4B4B4BRaschid> I work on philosophy. I've been published in "Keen Veracity", and I do a lot of lectures and talks. :D
[06:51] <4B4B4BRaschid> Although I'm trying to find public outlets for the ideas....Emmanuel doesn't seem to like us very much. :/
[06:51] <4B4B4BRaschid> At least, from what I hear.
[06:51] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> keen varacity has an unethical past..
[06:51] <4B4B4BRaschid> Dreawn is our Buddhist cluster kid, who's attempting to build his own cluster.
[06:52] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: true, true.
[06:52] <4B4B4BRaschid> I'm aware of it. I think Digi's trying to change his group's rep.
[06:53] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, Question, what is more ethical: defacement or just rm'ing?
[06:53] <4B4B4Behg> Raschid how one can wash away the sins from him? how can one become the equivalent of a born again christian?
[06:53] <4B4B4BRaschid> rming?
[06:54] <4B4B4Bsub> rashid, deleting everything
[06:54] <4B4B4Bcstone> so do you have to do hail marys and such if you rm someone
[06:54] <4B4B4Bcstone> or what
[06:54] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: "born again". Blech. A tiresome phrase.
[06:54] <4B4B4BRaschid> CStone: think of hacking (in the modern sense) in these terms....military combat.
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[06:54] <4B4B4Bearlio> Retarded.
[06:54] <4B4B4Bearlio> All of you.
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[06:54] <4B4B4Behg> ok so we have this bad ass hacker, he goes owning people and he likes zarcae and decides to join the philosophy
[06:54] <4B4B4BRaschid> There's the idea of "just war"....you fight for a cause when it's honorable, just, and there's no other possible way of changing the oppressor.
[06:55] <4B4B4Behg> how he washes his earliers sins?
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: we'd deny him.
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> We're not a group dedicated to owning.
[06:55] <4B4B4Bsub> rashid, you did not answer
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: repentence, I imagine.
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> Anyone can change. That's important to us.
[06:55] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, Question, what is more ethical: defacement or just deleting everything?
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> Even the worst fool, script kiddie, or worst hacker is capable of genuine change.
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: I guess it would be the reason behind it.
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> I disgaree with defacement entirely.
[06:55] <4B4B4Behg> btw, your idea of knights is a seriously distorted one
[06:55] <4B4B4BRaschid> It doesn't accomplish anything.
[06:56] <4B4B4BRaschid> False information should be countered with truth, not wasted action.
[06:56] <4B4B4Brobawtz> yey
[06:56] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: elaborate, pleae.
[06:56] <4B4B4BRaschid> *please
[06:56] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> deleting everything is not that bad
[06:56] <4B4B4Brobawtz> hi all
[06:56] <4B4B4Behg> you see, knights were soldiers
[06:56] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: Ever hear of the Templar Knights?
[06:56] <4B4B4BRaschid> ;)
[06:56] <4B4B4Behg> any book on the crusades will show you that when they first entered jerusalem they slaughtered all muslims
[06:57] <4B4B4Behg> and the templar knights were monks educated in war, monks at that time were of the few literate people
[06:57] <4B4B4BRaschid> A disturbing tragedy.
[06:57] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> hey raschid, tell me if this ezine is ethical or not: www.eurocompton.net/~fuk/el8.3.txt
[06:57] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: precisely. The Templars were an ideal combination of education and military tactics.
[06:57] *** robawtz sets mode +o spirtd 
[06:58] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: they mentioned us in there. :D
[06:58] <4B4B4BRaschid> "GET http://online.securityfocus.com/archive/101"},
[06:58] <4B4B4BRaschid>   {"sec-papers [4 the literary inkl1n3d like warzael zarcae",
[06:58] <4B4B4Behg> yeah, who gives a fuck if they were political assassins and the works
[06:58] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> so is it ethical or not? oh :)
[06:58] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's down halfway.
[06:59] <4B4B4Behg> ok
[06:59] <4B4B4Behg> i have another question
[06:59] <4B4B4BRaschid> ehg: hrmm. shoot. :)
[06:59] <4B4B4Behg> if anyone joins your movement and such by definition you will have a leading position
[06:59] <4B4B4Behg> so that means you get all the warez?
[06:59] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: me? I don't want to lead.....I want to be a guide, but I don't want to order people.
[07:00] <4B4B4Bsub> Raschid, so there is no leadership as such?
[07:00] <4B4B4Behg> how do we know that if power dont corrupt you? if temptations will not arise?
[07:00] <4B4B4BRaschid> Think of it like monks. I want to help my brothers and sisters in their pursuit of goodness...the only authority I ever want is what I'd expect of them with me: to tell me when I'm screwing up.
[07:00] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: I don't. So I have to constantly watch myself, and make sure I'm not accorded more power than I should have.,
[07:01] <4B4B4BRaschid> Which is one reason I've refused to learn how to hack.
[07:01] <4B4B4BRaschid> It provides a check on me.
[07:01] <4B4B4Behg> who is the judge of that?
[07:01] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> raschid, what is ethical abotu ~el8 3?
[07:01] <4B4B4Bsub> and if "hackers" aren't really in pursuit of goodness (or evil)?
[07:01] <4B4B4BRaschid> Sub: we have a leadership.
[07:01] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> Raschid: do u accept jesus christ as ur lord and savoir?
[07:01] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: I am a Christian, yes.
[07:01] <4B4B4BRaschid> A fairly recent one...only three years.
[07:01] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> u know he was a jew right?
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: of course.
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i think ur commiting blasphemy
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> against his religion
[07:02] *** Raschid laughs
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> How so?
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> he came 2 strengthen jews
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> not 2 break jews up
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> If you're going to say only the jews could accept him, you're wrong.
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> christianity is the work of satan
[07:02] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> aka fuk
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> I'd remind you of his speech at the Last Supper.
[07:02] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> Do you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal beard & moustache shaver?
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> "Go forth, and make disciples of all nations."
[07:02] <4B4B4BRaschid> ;)
[07:03] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> thats a quote sorry had to say it
[07:03] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> Raschid: the new testament is a satanic conspiracy
[07:03] <4B4B4BRaschid> And a lot of his teachings are not specific to the Jews. Sorry Wonk, you're not going to win this one.
[07:03] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i h8 2 break it 2 u
[07:03] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: forgive me for disagreeing.
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> But I do thank you for the entertainment. ;)
[07:04] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> Raschid do u activiely hack?
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: I can't. I write. :D
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> I lead hackers.
[07:04] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> how can a jew be a hacker leader if he can't code?
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> It's a good check on me to keep me from arrogance and undue pride.
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: how am I a Jew
[07:04] *** Raschid confused
[07:04] <4B4B4BRaschid> I think I get your point, however.
[07:04] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> what hackers do u lead?
[07:04] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> if you are jewish, just step inside my ezbakeoven
[07:05] <4B4B4BRaschid> A shoemaker may make truthful statements on the necessity of war, and a child might accurately describe God. So why can a writer or a person of any other occupation not remind people of what's right?
[07:05] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> raschild i think ur schizophrenic
[07:05] <4B4B4BRaschid> Wonku: the Zarcadians. I went over this earlier. :)
[07:05] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> whut hackers are in ur cult?
[07:05] <4B4B4BRaschid> Cult?
[07:05] *** Raschid GRINS
[07:05] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i wish u'd realize the first letter of my nick is "n"
[07:05] <4B4B4BRaschid> THAT is the funniest name I've heard all night.
[07:05] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> k
[07:05] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> but what hackers do u lead?
[07:06] <4B4B4BRaschid> NWonknu, then.
[07:06] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> what groups subscribe 2 this school of thought?
[07:06] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> do u have antiNSA in ur leagues?
[07:06] <4B4B4BRaschid> Nwonk: we tend to be fairly suspicious of the government. A few of our people work for the government in a limited fashion, and work with law enforcement.
[07:07] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> sorry for askign but where do you live raschid? usa (what state?)
[07:07] <4B4B4BRaschid> A lot of our group does work with the ACPO (www.antichildporn.org) and we've had an association with the LoU for a while.
[07:07] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, but that means that you're hackers we're already ethical when they joined?
[07:07] <4B4B4BRaschid> Hitler: I'm in Boston at the moment, for the next four weeks, working in a cafe.
[07:07] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> acpo aren't hackers
[07:07] *** m^ (m@assaultland.detroitpolicedepartment.com) has left #!ethics 
[07:07] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> and lou are a gang of scriptkiddies
[07:08] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: a lot of them became Zarcadians for the community we offered-a brotherhood of people committed to a virtuous lifestyle.
[07:08] <4B4B4BRaschid> Nwonku: You asked. ;)
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> who make themes for their windowmanagers
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> k i asked about hackers
[07:08] <4B4B4BRaschid> Timothy Lawless is one.
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> not what inbreds follow
[07:08] <4B4B4BRaschid> Creator of the software St. Jude and St. Michael.
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> tim lawless sucks
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> his modules don't work
[07:08] *** Raschid shrugs
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> u probably code better than him
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> but i'll be quiet now
[07:08] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> continue sermon.
[07:08] <4B4B4BRaschid> NWonku: I'd argue you're mis-using them, then.
[07:08] *** Raschid laughs
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> wait, i said i'd be silent
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> but 
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i want u 2 know
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> that any moron who can write an lkm
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> can defeat those lame mods of his
[07:09] *** Raschid shrugs
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> itz well known amongst hackers
[07:09] <4B4B4BRaschid> Offer me proof.
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> dude
[07:09] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> think 4 urself
[07:10] <4B4B4BRaschid> as I recall, Optikz tried to do it at Defcon, and got publicly embarassed for it. ;)
[07:10] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> Raschid: k moving on
[07:10] <4B4B4Brwhom> Raschid: 
[07:10] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> Raschid: r u familiar with the other hacker religion?
[07:10] <4B4B4BRaschid> Because right after Optikz did his vuln. speech, Tim came up and delivered his speech regarding exactly how you slam down that vuln.
[07:10] <4B4B4Bgayh1tler> optikz hacks for satan
[07:10] <4B4B4Brwhom> say i became one of these zarcadians...
[07:10] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rwhom: yes?
[07:10] <4B4B4BRaschid> NWonku: which is?
[07:10] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> antiSecurity
[07:11] <4B4B4Brwhom> are you against fucking without condoms
[07:11] <4B4B4BRaschid> NWonku: elaborate, please?
[07:11] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> u'll have 2 go to web.archives.org
[07:11] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> put in, "anti.security.is"
[07:11] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rwhom: not at all. Condoms are good. :)
[07:11] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> thats the other faith
[07:12] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, Zarcadians as a full group attend any cons or public events?
[07:12] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: we're planning on it.
[07:12] <4B4B4BRaschid> Tim Lawless is at cons all the time.
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> I was headed to h2k2 this weekend, but my funds didn't come through. :(
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> I was going to do a speech there.
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> And I'm hoping to make Defcon (fingers crossed!)
[07:13] <4B4B4Brwhom> what will you speak on?
[07:13] <4B4B4Bvipah> Tim Lawless.. he represents himself as a Zarcaedian?
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rwhom: ethics. Honor. 
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: of course.
[07:13] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ask him about it if you see him.
[07:13] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> dude thats cool
[07:13] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> can we present with u?
[07:14] <4B4B4Brwhom> Raschid: tell setients ass to get your site back up
[07:14] <4B4B4BRaschid> NWonku: on what?
[07:14] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rwhom: I would, if I could get up with him.
[07:16] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, ok that's pretty impressive, I see your group is doing great work for putting hackers on ethical road. So what about this middle ages stuff, tell me more how current situation is mirros those times!
[07:16] *** Raschid thinks
[07:16] <4B4B4Behg> "im gonna get medieval on your ass"
[07:17] <4B4B4BRaschid> Well; I've made all the necessary analogies. As far as cyberspace, the analogy is pretty close: anarchy, outside of those with the biggest swords and the most swords controlling their own fiefdoms.
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[07:17] <4B4B4BRaschid> Different "groups" or whatever controlling various turfs.
[07:17] <4B4B4BRaschid> Turf in the Net is fluid, though, unlike the midievial analogous land. ;)
[07:17] <4B4B4Bytcracker> digital gangsters if you will
[07:18] <4B4B4Bvipah> what you think about whitehats? are these ethical hackers or just pretend to be so?
[07:18] <4B4B4BRaschid> Our job is to provide protection for people.
[07:18] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: I dislike whitehats for the most part. I suspect a lot of "exploit finding" is simply security professionals keeping themselves in a job.
[07:18] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i think putting a label on someone like whitehat/blackhat/pussy is judgemental
[07:18] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> and the good lord saying "thou shalt not judge"
[07:18] <4B4B4BRaschid> I believe that we need to concentrate on intrusion resiliency and LKM projects more.
[07:18] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> lkm r lame bro
[07:19] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> the only useful functionality of lkm r backdoros
[07:19] <4B4B4Bcstone> how can you make technical decisions about what you should concentrate on if you "refuse" to learn things
[07:19] <4B4B4BRaschid> I respect an honest white hat, but I disagree with them in the same way I would a pacifist.
[07:19] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> k
[07:19] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> i'm going idle
[07:19] <4B4B4BRaschid> Force is rarely, if ever justified, but you have to leave the option open.
[07:19] <4B4B4Bnwonknu> this is making my brain hurt
[07:19] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, have you ever had luck reading ~el8 ezine?
[07:19] <4B4B4BRaschid> CStone: I'm not saying that research on it shouldn't continue.
[07:19] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: ? Reading it? I don't read it. :)
[07:20] <4B4B4BRaschid> I heard we were mentione rather nicely in it, though.
[07:20] <4B4B4Brwhom> Raschid: youve begun to confuse the shit out of me
[07:20] <4B4B4BRaschid> In the sense it didn't piss on us. ;)
[07:20] <4B4B4BRaschid> Rwhom: how so?
[07:20] <4B4B4Behg> read again
[07:20] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, there is a new issue here: http://owned.hoha.ru/el8.3.txt please review it and tell us if these hackers are ethical and what you think of them in general.
[07:21] <4B4B4Brwhom> Raschid: so when did you start having these sentiments?
[07:21] <4B4B4BRaschid> RWhom: When Iwas 14.
[07:21] <4B4B4BRaschid> :)
[07:21] <4B4B4Brwhom> what brought them on
[07:22] <4B4B4BRaschid> Projetc Mayhem, you mean?
[07:22] <4B4B4Bvipah> yes
[07:22] <4B4B4BRaschid> RWhom: deeper considerations on Christianity.
[07:22] <4B4B4BRaschid> I was a militant agnostic. I'm famous in my home city for trying to dissuade and persecute Christians. ;)
[07:23] <4B4B4Brwhom> how old are you now?
[07:23] <4B4B4BRaschid> I'm still not entirely welcome in two churches for being good enough at theology to puzzle two ministers, and openly calling Christianity a weak stupid religion.
[07:23] <4B4B4BRaschid> 19.
[07:23] <4B4B4BRaschid> I converted at 16, after three years of deep reflective study on my own into the faith, and after reading C. S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity"
[07:24] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, As we continue our ethics discussing and not getting deep into religion, tell us what you think about Projekt Mayhem and the ~el8 ezine in general.
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[07:25] <4B4B4Brwhom> ha
[07:25] *** vipah sets mode +o nwonknu_ 
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[07:25] <4B4B4Bvipah> y0 tr1ppz
[07:26] <4B4B4BRaschid> In reading it, I think it's stupid. 
[07:26] <4B4B4Btr1ppz> yo vipah
[07:26] <4B4B4BRaschid> I think these are the sort of people we ought to be trying to reach.
[07:26] <4B4B4Btr1ppz> whatz up bro
[07:26] <4B4B4Bvipah> tr1ppz, chillin..
[07:26] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, so there no ethics in them? you think you're able to put them on the "right way"?
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[07:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: I think it's an arms race of sorts.
[07:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> We should always be willing to welcome them into the fold, make efforts to ty to dissuade them, and barring that, create defensive programs against their exploits.
[07:28] <4B4B4BRaschid> In the last exetremity, we'd have to go against them, and track them down.
[07:29] <4B4B4Behg> ok serious question
[07:29] <4B4B4Behg> track em down and then do what?
[07:29] <4B4B4Bcstone> exorcism
[07:30] *** vipah sets mode +o tr1ppz 
[07:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> Ehg: unknown. Turn them in, at the last resort, I imagine.
[07:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> If they're causing serious havoc, I mean.
[07:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> And I'm talking about it as a last desperate act.
[07:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> I'm all for busting pedo hackers, though.
[07:30] <4B4B4BRaschid> Sick sick people.
[07:30] <4B4B4Bvipah> you know any pedo hackers?
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[07:31] <4B4B4Bvipah> what about them, never heard..
[07:31] <4B4B4BRaschid> I talk to the ACPO about them.
[07:31] <4B4B4Behg> what is a pedo hacker?
[07:31] <4B4B4Bvipah> eh, pedophile
[07:31] <4B4B4Bvipah> hacker who hacks and post pedo pictures?
[07:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> Stenography has become very popular with pedophiles. And some of them have the computer skills to program stuff to hide kiddie porn. :(
[07:32] <4B4B4Bvipah> posts*
[07:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> Yeah.
[07:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> I truly loathe pedophiles.
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[07:32] <4B4B4Bswissphil> stenography is popular with secretaries as well
[07:32] <4B4B4Bcstone> hahah yes
[07:32] <4B4B4Bvipah> Raschid, will you talk about them @ defcon?
[07:32] <4B4B4Bpar> ahahaha
[07:32] <4B4B4Bcstone> those pedophiles all know shorthand and shit
[07:32] <4B4B4BRaschid> Vipah: dunno
[07:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> I DO know, however, I need sleep. :)
[07:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> Night everyone!
[07:33] <4B4B4BRaschid> Be back tomorrow. :D
[07:33] *** Raschid bows, vanishes
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