From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:11 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 2 Mar 1996 16:12:08 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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I initially tacked this on to a running thread, but it was just too good 
to bury in something that people might not be currently reading. Here's 
just another example of the utter arrogance and incompetence of some of 
our staff people at NCSU...


Lou Harrison (harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
 
: Well, Tim, Steve is WTVD's internet expert, too!  No wonder that they
: aren't on the web yet.
 
Interesting Lou. So you think that me talking to WTVD represents some 
sort of consultancy for them, huh? Well, let's then take a look at your 
job of controlling the people around you - a task which is *actually* in 
your job description.
 
You had one of your operators slime his way into a Daniels lab yesterday 
and really make an ass out of himself. Now, many of your people 
(following your lead) do that all the time, but this one caused some real 
damage.
 
It seems that Lawrence Wobker barged into the lab and announced that he 
needed to use a machine. Not quite lab etiquette, but presumably within 
his rights. Someone stated that he was about to get off (and indeed did 
do so within about three minutes) but that wasn't good enough for Wobker 
the Human Wombat. No, he walked to a machine where someone was logged in 
but was not sitting directly in front of. Problem for Wobker was that the 
woman who *was* using the machine was consulting with the person **Next** 
to her at the time, so that she was literally right there though not 
physically in front of the screen at that exact second.
 
She did, though, intervene and inform Wobker that she was using the 
machine. In fact, she had been using that machine since 1 AM (12 hours at 
that point) to run a simulation. She was within a half hour of 
completion. Wobker apparently took offense to the fact that the woman was 
using a screen saver as the process ran. With the screen saver on and the 
fact that she was not welded to the keyboard, and after finding out the 
circumstances under which the machine was being used, this prick gets on 
another machine (the one voluntarily given up earlier) and sends a zypher 
to Mike. Now Mike at the time was the de facto operator over that lab.
 
Wobker informs Mike that there was a machine unattended and requested 
authorization to re-boot. Mike, not having any idea of any of the 
conversation taking place, and assuming that a CSC operator (even in an EC 
lab) would know the rules, tells Wobker that it is OK to re-boot.
 
Wobker then walks back over to the woman's machine and re-boots it. 
Unfortunately, he re-booted the wrong machine. The one he *did* re-boot 
was in use by a guy running Cadence (the purpose of that lab) who at that 
very instant had gone about three machines over to talk to someone else 
doing the same thing. His program had also been running for hours and was 
about finished.
 
Well, this guy realized that his machine had just been re-booted and 
confronted Wobker. Wobker apparently couldn't care less and proceeded to 
re-boot the woman's machine as well even though at that moment she *was* 
physically at her workstation as opposed to the one next to it.
 
Wobker, having ruined two people's day and functioning in the capacity of 
an operator (he announced himself as such initially) turned and walked 
out of the room.
 
Now Lou, I've had personal experience with Sanjay and *know* that he is 
an asshole, but this is another one of your little creatures that doesn't 
know his place in the universe. How many more of these ignorant 
wankstains do you have working under you? and how many more problems will 
they cause before someone realizes that the source of the problems can be 
traced back to the Head Wankstain himself?
 
Steve Crisp
 
-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!jjprice Tue Mar  5 13:05:11 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!jjprice
From: jjprice@eos.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey James Price)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 2 Mar 1996 21:11:03 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
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Well, being a Daniels operator I feel I have to say something about this.

Not about the machine being rebooted, I've heard the story from numerous
sources and feel the individual who rebooted the machien was out of line, but
about the reason behind everything....students having to run simulations
that take overnight or at the very least several hours to run.

These students have no place to run these simulations besides a public lab, and
the policy in public labs is that you may not be running a screen lock, or
logged into more than one machine (which BTW the female you mentioned was
logged into two machines at the time). However it is ridiculous to expect
students to baby-sit a machine for 12 hours, or even 2 days in one case.

Steve, your time would be put to better use if you would try and convince
someone to get these students access to run batch process on certain machines,
than continuing your little pissing contest with Lou. Which is really needed?

I'm certain there has got to be some way to allow these students to run their
simulations w/o tying up public workstations for hours...think someone over
at ECO/CC could look into this? 
-- 
GO PACK !!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey James Price    				 Senior Computer Engineering &
http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jjprice/www/           Computer Science
  

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:11 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: mbcaudi@unity.ncsu.edu (Mike Caudill)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 2 Mar 1996 21:39:20 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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Distribution: world
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Jeffrey James Price (jjprice@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:
:
: Not about the machine being rebooted, I've heard the story from numerous
: sources and feel the individual who rebooted the machien was out of line, but
: about the reason behind everything....students having to run simulations
: that take overnight or at the very least several hours to run.
: 
: These students have no place to run these simulations besides a public lab, and
: the policy in public labs is that you may not be running a screen lock, or
: logged into more than one machine (which BTW the female you mentioned was
: logged into two machines at the time). However it is ridiculous to expect
: students to baby-sit a machine for 12 hours, or even 2 days in one case.

Correction, she was logged into 3 machines (2 Suns and 1 3100).

: 
: I'm certain there has got to be some way to allow these students to run their
: simulations w/o tying up public workstations for hours...think someone over
: at ECO/CC could look into this? 
:   

We are indeed looking into the problem.  We recognize the great need for batch
style services.  Our current qbatch system is really outdated and only works
well on the DECstations.  We are in the process of evaluating other batch
processing systems that are more robust and will provide all of the 
functionality (and hopefully more) than the current qbatch system.  This is
a high priority item for both ECO (ITECS) and the Computing Center.

-Mike-

-- 

/===================================================================\
| Mike Caudill (mbcaudi@eos.ncsu.edu)   --  Systems Programmer      |
| Information Technology and Engineering Computer Services (ITECS)  |
| 5 Page Hall / Box 7901 - NCSU / Raleigh, NC  27695 / 919.515.2458 |
\===================================================================/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:11 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: mbcaudi@unity.ncsu.edu (Mike Caudill)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 2 Mar 1996 22:51:37 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
:  
: You had one of your operators slime his way into a Daniels lab yesterday 
: and really make an ass out of himself. Now, many of your people 
: (following your lead) do that all the time, but this one caused some real 
: damage.
:  

In Lou's defense, he did not "have one of his operators slime his way into
a Daniels lab yesterday," Lou was not involved with the incident at all.  The
op was simply following COE policy regarding the use of multiple machines.

: It seems that Lawrence Wobker barged into the lab and announced that he 
: needed to use a machine. Not quite lab etiquette, but presumably within 
: his rights. Someone stated that he was about to get off (and indeed did 
: do so within about three minutes) but that wasn't good enough for Wobker 
: the Human Wombat. No, he walked to a machine where someone was logged in 
: but was not sitting directly in front of. Problem for Wobker was that the 
: woman who *was* using the machine was consulting with the person **Next** 
: to her at the time, so that she was literally right there though not 
: physically in front of the screen at that exact second.
:  
: She did, though, intervene and inform Wobker that she was using the 
: machine. In fact, she had been using that machine since 1 AM (12 hours at 
: that point) to run a simulation. She was within a half hour of 
: completion. Wobker apparently took offense to the fact that the woman was 
: using a screen saver as the process ran. With the screen saver on and the 
: fact that she was not welded to the keyboard, and after finding out the 
: circumstances under which the machine was being used, this prick gets on 
: another machine (the one voluntarily given up earlier) and sends a zypher 
: to Mike. Now Mike at the time was the de facto operator over that lab.
:  
: Wobker informs Mike that there was a machine unattended and requested 
: authorization to re-boot. Mike, not having any idea of any of the 
: conversation taking place, and assuming that a CSC operator (even in an EC 
: lab) would know the rules, tells Wobker that it is OK to re-boot.
:  
: Wobker then walks back over to the woman's machine and re-boots it. 
: Unfortunately, he re-booted the wrong machine. The one he *did* re-boot 
: was in use by a guy running Cadence (the purpose of that lab) who at that 
: very instant had gone about three machines over to talk to someone else 
: doing the same thing. His program had also been running for hours and was 
: about finished.
:  
: Well, this guy realized that his machine had just been re-booted and 
: confronted Wobker. Wobker apparently couldn't care less and proceeded to 
: re-boot the woman's machine as well even though at that moment she *was* 
: physically at her workstation as opposed to the one next to it.
:  
: Wobker, having ruined two people's day and functioning in the capacity of 
: an operator (he announced himself as such initially) turned and walked 
: out of the room.
:  

Steve,
	
There is no doubt here that academic work was interfered with; however, it
happened in accordance with established COE lab usage rules.  While both users
lost work one was in violation of policy by occupying three machines in the
lab.  This has been against Eos policy, which was approved by the College of
Engineering Computer Committee, and taught in E115 for several years.  Under
the circumstances the user should have been reminded of the rule so it would
not happen again instead of losing her work, but unfortunately that did not
happen.  It was a mistake.

The problem comes in with her occupying more than one seat to do her homework -
how many people were deprived of a seat that day to do _their_ Cadence homework
while she occupied three?  This is what the Computer Committee was addressing
when they wrote the policy.  If the departments wish to allow this for their
students we have always tried to assist them in setting something up to
handle it, but Daniels 346 is a public lab under the public lab rules.

Lawrence was, while not entirely appropriately, simply performing his duty
as an op by enforcing this policy.  Yelling at him or any other group that
does not have the authority to make the rules may be gratifying, but is
ultimately unproductive.  If Engineering students do not agree with this
policy it is certainly within their rights to discuss it with the Computer
Committee, who make the rules.  As everyone knows most of the people on
campus who make University policy don't read news for input, so you'll have
to actually go talk to them to provide yours.

Now, for the solution.  As I stated in my previous post, we recognize the dire
need for a better batch processing system for jobs like this.  ITECS and the
Computing Center are currently evaluating batch systems which should hopefully
replace out antiquated "qbatch" system.  Due to under-staffing this is not
proceeding as quickly as we hoped, but rest assured it is being worked on.

-Mike-

-- 

/===================================================================\
| Mike Caudill (mbcaudi@eos.ncsu.edu)   --  Systems Programmer      |
| Information Technology and Engineering Computer Services (ITECS)  |
| 5 Page Hall / Box 7901 - NCSU / Raleigh, NC  27695 / 919.515.2458 |
\===================================================================/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:11 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsjohnso@unity.ncsu.edu (Nathan Scott Johnson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 3 Mar 1996 00:34:45 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 62
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Ahh, another thought-provoking [sic], factually-based [sic], unbiased [sic]
posting from everyone's favorite, Steve Crisp.

So, who told you about this one?  Seeing as you are not grouped with the COE as
far as computing access is concerned, I will make a "rash" assumption that you
weren't on the third floor of Daniels at the time.  Any reason that we should
believe you as opposed to, say, someone who was a bit closer to the situation
(ie Caudill? Wobker?) There are two sides to *every* story, and yours is but
one.

Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: You had one of your operators slime his way into a Daniels lab yesterday 
The individual in question knows that he has no "official" jurisdiction in
346dan as a CSC operator; however, he does have such jurisdiction as a) an
employee of ITECS, and b) a fee-paying student with work to do in a lab with
unattended workstations.

: (following your lead) do that all the time, but this one caused some real 
Can you post without getting personal?  Your argument would seem so much more
worthwhile if you left out the personal attacks on people.
  
: do so within about three minutes) but that wasn't good enough for Wobker 
: the Human Wombat. No, he walked to a machine where someone was logged in 
A side note: Mr. Crisp has begun the namecalling in this argument.

: circumstances under which the machine was being used, this prick gets on 
Another side note: (see first side note.)

: Now Lou, I've had personal experience with Sanjay and *know* that he is 
: an asshole, but this is another one of your little creatures that doesn't 
: know his place in the universe. How many more of these ignorant 
: wankstains do you have working under you? and how many more problems will 
: they cause before someone realizes that the source of the problems can be 
: traced back to the Head Wankstain himself?
Why is it that you have to continually drag your personal mini-war with
Harrison into this?  Wobker acted under the authority of ITECS, *not* Lou
Harrsion, *not* myself, and *not* the CSC department.  As far as the situation
is concerned, I wasn't there, myself (notice here that I am qualifying my facts
as second-hand, instead of masquerading around as the end-all of truth and
knowledge, which you are not); however, I, too, have discussed the details
with witnesses.  I'm not going to harp on details, for I wasn't there; however,
I feel the need to remind you of some facts and some principles at work here.

As Caudill has explained (twice on this thread alone), the batch capabilities
here aren't the best in the world.  The part *you* don't seem to understand is
that just because the facilities may be inadequate in your eyes does *NOT* give
you or anyone else the right to BREAK the rules.  They exist for a reason, and
if you are not clear on that reason, or think it is invalid, there are channels
for you to use through which rules can be explained, reviewed, and even changed.Until such time, I (in my capacity as a student at this university who has also
paid the fees) will enforce the rules for the benefit of *all* fee-paying
students; not because it's the cool thing to do, not because it will bring me
fame and fortune on ncsu.*, but because it's the (get ready for this shocker!)
right thing to do.

									...nate


-- 
- Nathan S Johnson (nate@ncsu.edu) (+1.919.515.3909)
- Computing Facilities Administrations Manager
- North Carolina State University, Department of Computer Science
- The time is now! (email me for details)

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 3 Mar 1996 00:59:42 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Jeffrey James Price (jjprice@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: These students have no place to run these simulations besides a public lab, and
: the policy in public labs is that you may not be running a screen lock, or
: logged into more than one machine (which BTW the female you mentioned was
: logged into two machines at the time). However it is ridiculous to expect
: students to baby-sit a machine for 12 hours, or even 2 days in one case.

There *is* a way around this problem and it is one which many other 
universities use. Simply require all students to own a computer. The 
problem with doing so is that it upsets the cart over in financial aid. 
By requiring a computer (between $1,000 and $5,000 worth of equipment 
depending on the discipline) the university would have to re-calculate 
the estimated cost of attendance. That would increase the total that a 
student could borrow or receive in grants and, in turn, increase the 
potential default rate of the university.

So what we do then is force most students to use equipment which may be 
far less or far more than what any individual student actually needs. And 
then we limit the use of those computers by grossly undersupplying 
demand.

But we apparently made the decision to have the university act as the 
central supplies of workstations as opposed to having students being able 
to buy their own inexpensively through the buying power of the university 
many years ago. It is now coming back to haunt us.

The policy can be changed overnight; all it takes is the respective Deans 
to make that decision and act through the faculty senate in its 
implementation.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 01:09:41 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4hargl$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hapf5$o4s@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Nathan Scott Johnson (nsjohnso@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Any reason that we should
: believe you as opposed to, say, someone who was a bit closer to the situation
: (ie Caudill? Wobker?) There are two sides to *every* story, and yours is but
: one.

And I posted mine from the synthesis of what three different people told 
me - all of whom *were* there. If there is a refutation coming then let 
it come. All I've seen so far is that there were violations of policy 
that were occurring, but that the way the incident was handled was in 
error. What I do know is that one woman lost 12 hours worth of work 
because of the inconsiderate stupidity of someone who apparently was way 
out of line and that any authorization that he may have obtained was 
gotten without fully relating the total circumstances.

Is that about right?

Steve Crisp

ps. Something else really bothers me here as well. Why is it that so many 
people who have run-ins with the staffs of the respective computer labs 
want to remain anonymous in telling how they've been screwed? Right off 
the bat that indicates to me that at least some of the operators might be 
using some strong-arm tactics on the way their labs are run. If there 
were no potential repercussions then why are so many people scared of 
pissing them off even when the ops are wrong?

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu (Nalin Dahyabhai)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 01:21:45 GMT
Organization: N.C. State University
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4has79$ul@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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On 3 Mar 1996 00:59:42 GMT, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: But we apparently made the decision to have the university act as the 
: central supplies of workstations as opposed to having students being able 
: to buy their own inexpensively through the buying power of the university 
: many years ago. It is now coming back to haunt us.

Okay, I for one would like to see this theory explained. The fact is that
you can't get prices much better than mail-order houses offer, even if
you're a reseller. Having worked for one, I guess I know.

Perhaps Steve means that the University should subsidize students in buying
their own equipment? If that were to happen, I'd be one of the first in
line, but I doubt that it WILL happen, since any money invested by the
University would leave campus within a few years, but workstations in labs
can be surplussed for at least some recovery of funds...

-- 
Nalin Dahyabhai nalin@argus.rh.ncsu.edu
  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nsdahya1/www/


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin
From: garvin@unity.ncsu.edu (Michael Arthur Garvin)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 02:16:47 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager.eos.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2509 ncsu.eos:679 ncsu.unity:520

Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>
>There *is* a way around this problem and it is one which many other 
>universities use. Simply require all students to own a computer. The 
>problem with doing so is that it upsets the cart over in financial aid. 
>By requiring a computer (between $1,000 and $5,000 worth of equipment 
>depending on the discipline) the university would have to re-calculate 
>the estimated cost of attendance. That would increase the total that a 
>student could borrow or receive in grants and, in turn, increase the 
>potential default rate of the university.
>

	I'm curious: what is the default rate and how much of it do we actually
wind up collecting?  Or are we just throwing away tax and tuition money?

>
>So what we do then is force most students to use equipment which may be 
>far less or far more than what any individual student actually needs. And 
>then we limit the use of those computers by grossly undersupplying 
>demand.
>

	Yes, we have lines in the labs.  We're working on adding machines even
now (there are 50 more in Central Receiving).  However, space is a serious
issue that we're dealing with.  But in the context of this discussion if you
have a system in your home/room you can only use it once; logging in two or
three times wouldn't have entered the picture...

	As for far less/far more, there was an interesting argument years ago
about this.  It went something like, "If the speed limit is 55, then why would
I want a car that can do 56 or more?  Likewise, if I'm never going to fully
utilize the computers, why buy the fast ones?"

>
>But we apparently made the decision to have the university act as the 
>central supplies of workstations as opposed to having students being able 
>to buy their own inexpensively through the buying power of the university 
>many years ago. It is now coming back to haunt us.
>

	From having friends at Viginia Tech I can say that while this sounds
like a good idea it hasn't worked very well.  In the five year period around
1988-1993 they required three different platforms (Decstations, Commodore
Amiga 3000s [!], and now PCs), the students sunk tons of money in, and they
have little to show for it.  Obviously picked something to start with like a
PC or Mac would have been a much better idea, but you learn.

	Students here have gotten several equipment upgrades over the same
period, with only a minor fee increase.  The 2100s begat 3100s, which begat
5000s, and are now rolling over to Sparc 4s and 5s.  Not to mention the amount
of software that's installed.  Even with a generous discount I can see people
paying $1,000+ for the inital purchase, and that much again for software and
annual upgrades during their stay.  And they probably won't have a lasting
investment to show for it.  We also need to take into account the idea that
this University provides an inexpensive education; by this token, charging
thousands more for a computer doesn't fit in.  Instead we charge around $1,500
over a five year stay to cover computers, chemicals, foreign language tapes,
etc...

	Changing threads quickly, re: why people bottle these things up, don't
complain, or complain to certain other to complain for them, students have
the right to complain.  Believe me, there are certain ones who hated to see
me walk in their door while I was here (and still wince).  But folks, you've
got to get off your butt and do it the right way to the right people.  Formal
written complaints to the department or college are a wonderful thing.  If
you've got a beef with an op, send us an official complaint - the bureaucracy
loves paperwork, and you'll get a lot more attention than sending it here
where most don't look.  But whining via news amongst yourselves gets nowhere
since no one seems to be doing so to the people that matter.

	Ok, I'm off my soapbox.  Summary: get up, go talk to folks and file
the papers, and comiserate in news when that fails.

	Ok, almost done: they don't actually recycle the plastic soda bottles,
they just collect them to throw them out?  Isn't that illegal in Wake county,
and even if not what's the point in the bins then?

-- 
| Michael Garvin    \    North Carolina State University College of Engineering
| Systems Programmer \   Information Technology & Engineering Computer Services
| garvin@eos.ncsu.edu \  5 Page Hall, Box 7901 NCSU Campus,  Raleigh,  NC 27695
| (919) 515-2458       \                  http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/staff/garvin/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 3 Mar 1996 03:48:10 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4hb4pq$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Okay, I for one would like to see this theory explained. The fact is that
: you can't get prices much better than mail-order houses offer, even if
: you're a reseller. Having worked for one, I guess I know.

You're assuming that the price the university charged to the students 
would include a healthy profit margin such as the mail-order houses add 
to their wholesale. A large-volume purchase by the university for the 
express purpose of supplying students would result in a savings of around 
30 to 40 percent under the best price that any mail-order could provide. 
Just look at what Yale students pay.

: Perhaps Steve means that the University should subsidize students in buying
: their own equipment? If that were to happen, I'd be one of the first in
: line, but I doubt that it WILL happen, since any money invested by the
: University would leave campus within a few years, but workstations in labs
: can be surplussed for at least some recovery of funds...

You want to find out about surplus? Find out where all the Macs are 
that were once being used in CSC 200.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 3 Mar 1996 04:29:29 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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Message-ID: <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
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Michael Arthur Garvin (garvin@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: 	I'm curious: what is the default rate and how much of it do we actually
: wind up collecting?  Or are we just throwing away tax and tuition money?

The default rate for NCSU is one of the lowest in the nation and for 
reason. NCSU funnels their financial aid students through College 
Foundation, a state consortium which handles student loans for those with 
NC residency. (Until two years ago, the financial aid office would not 
even tell a student that there were hundreds of other lenders available. 
It was CFI or nothing.) The problem with CFI is that if there is the 
least little bit of a problem with ones parents financial status (i.e., 
late payments, business bankruptcy from years ago, suits and judgements 
that are business connected, high debt-to-equity ratio, etc.) the 
student gets turned down for aid. In other words, unless the parents are 
in a position to walk into any bank and borrow an unsecured loan for tens 
of thousands of dollars (which most can't) the student is SOL.

The problem with the system is that a whole lot of students fall through 
the cracks - and it is even worse now that most students can't get 
independent status. And what is so bad is that the loans should be based 
on the actuarial percentage of the *student* to repay the loan after 
graduation - not based on the parent's current ability to pay 
immediately. What happens in a lot of cases is that (particularly) 
urban black students and those from rural farming families can not get 
loans because of problems their parents have. You've got kids trying to 
make a better life for themselves than their parents have and they are 
fucked out the gate.

(This situation has changed dramatically since the new director of 
financial aid arrived. She changed the policy to have on-hand 
applications from several different lenders - many of which won't even 
check credit at all. They lend to the student provided that the financial 
aid office certifies eligibility - which they do independent of a credit 
check.) 

When a loan is defaulted, the costs are borne first by the lender and 
then by the federal government in the event that the loan becomes 
uncollectable. The university bears no responsibility for collections, 
but the default amount is counted against the total aid lent. If the 
ratio gets too high, the university can lose lending status; from what I 
understand, that default ratio needs to hit 25 percent. If I remember 
correctly, it is currently less than 2 percent. The money for defaulted 
loans comes out of your tax dollars because the loans are guaranteed by 
the government, but...

The government has very powerful tools to recover the money, i.e., liens 
on paychecks, foreclosure of property, etc., but they choose not to 
exercise those legal option for whatever reason. Loses votes...

: 	Yes, we have lines in the labs.  We're working on adding machines even
: now (there are 50 more in Central Receiving).  However, space is a serious
: issue that we're dealing with.  But in the context of this discussion if you
: have a system in your home/room you can only use it once; logging in two or
: three times wouldn't have entered the picture...

Bingo. Space *is* the problem. One could buy 25,000 machines for every 
student to use, but the facilities to house them would cost more than the 
computers. A lot more. Figuring $2,000 per set-up and 50 square feet per 
computer, the computers would run $5 million and the building would cost 
about $150 million to construct.

: 	As for far less/far more, there was an interesting argument years ago
: about this.  It went something like, "If the speed limit is 55, then why would
: I want a car that can do 56 or more?  Likewise, if I'm never going to fully
: utilize the computers, why buy the fast ones?"

Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.

: 	From having friends at Viginia Tech I can say that while this sounds
: like a good idea it hasn't worked very well.  In the five year period around
: 1988-1993 they required three different platforms (Decstations, Commodore
: Amiga 3000s [!], and now PCs), the students sunk tons of money in, and they
: have little to show for it.  Obviously picked something to start with like a
: PC or Mac would have been a much better idea, but you learn.

Such is the problem when one is platform dependent. We should be program 
dependent. That way a student can purchase any platform he or she wants 
as long as the program will run on either its own OS or an emulator. To 
use an example, we should be teaching (or requiring the use of) Microsoft 
Excel rather than Excel for Window (or whatever.)

: 	Students here have gotten several equipment upgrades over the same
: period, with only a minor fee increase.  The 2100s begat 3100s, which begat
: 5000s, and are now rolling over to Sparc 4s and 5s.  Not to mention the amount
: of software that's installed.  Even with a generous discount I can see people
: paying $1,000+ for the inital purchase, and that much again for software and
: annual upgrades during their stay.  And they probably won't have a lasting
: investment to show for it.  We also need to take into account the idea that
: this University provides an inexpensive education; by this token, charging
: thousands more for a computer doesn't fit in.  Instead we charge around $1,500
: over a five year stay to cover computers, chemicals, foreign language tapes,
: etc...

Please tell me why CHASS students should subsidize the educational toys 
of PAMS students when CHASS students need basically a word processor and 
spreadsheet program for 90 percent of what they do and only have to take 
two science lab courses? And why should PAMS students subsidize the 
language labs for those majoring in foreign language? We need to go back 
to the old system - take a lab and pay a fee when you take that lab. At 
least then I (theoretically) knew where my money was going. As it is now, 
who the hell knows.

: 	Changing threads quickly, re: why people bottle these things up, don't
: complain, or complain to certain other to complain for them, students have
: the right to complain.  Believe me, there are certain ones who hated to see
: me walk in their door while I was here (and still wince).  But folks, you've
: got to get off your butt and do it the right way to the right people.  Formal
: written complaints to the department or college are a wonderful thing.  If
: you've got a beef with an op, send us an official complaint - the bureaucracy
: loves paperwork, and you'll get a lot more attention than sending it here
: where most don't look.  But whining via news amongst yourselves gets nowhere
: since no one seems to be doing so to the people that matter.

Doesn't get much done around here to complain through the proper channels 
anymore. The student is basically screwed unless one happens to run into 
a member of the administration who cares *and* has the power to do 
something. Those folks have become somewhat rare.

Then add in the factor that many students are scared to death of what the 
university may do to them (whether justified or not) and you get students 
keeping their mouths shut and the same old shit going on. Look at Housing 
and Residence Life. People are scared shitless about complaining. There 
have been too many threats by RAs and RDs in the past threating to throw 
students out of the dorm if they bitched. Just look at what happened at 
Wood Hall last semester. And if you don't remember that thread, just ask 
me - I'll review it for you.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison
From: harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu (Lou Harrison)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 12:33:45 GMT
Organization: (Administration machine NCSU Dept. Computer Science)
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4hc3j9$1br@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: adm.csc.ncsu.edu
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In article <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
>
>Lou Harrison (harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
> 
>: Well, Tim, Steve is WTVD's internet expert, too!  No wonder that they
>: aren't on the web yet.
> 
>Interesting Lou. So you think that me talking to WTVD represents some 
>sort of consultancy for them, huh? Well, let's then take a look at your 
>job of controlling the people around you - a task which is *actually* in 
>your job description.

	What's the matter Steve, truth hurt?  I've read your post and
can safely conclude that, as always, you are maaking up facts to suit
your "argument."  I grow weary of playing these games with you. My
operators work in 100 Lea, 224 Withers and 400 Withers, and enforce the
rules as layed out by my department and the COE computer committee.  If
Lawrence was in 247 Dan, he was acting under the auspices of ITECS (see,
Steve, he works there too).  

	Sounds to me like the user in question wasn't playing by the
rules.  Maybe Lawrence should have handled it differently. Maybe the
user should have only used one machine.  Who is to say.  In any event,
since Lawrence wasn't working for me at the time, and wasn't in a lab I
have any authority over its not my problem (even if the incontravertable
Steve Crisp says so).

[pedantic drivel deleted]

						Lou Harrison


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison
From: harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu (Lou Harrison)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 12:36:29 GMT
Organization: (Administration machine NCSU Dept. Computer Science)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4hc3od$3bg@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
>Jeffrey James Price (jjprice@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: These students have no place to run these simulations besides a public lab, and
>: the policy in public labs is that you may not be running a screen lock, or
>: logged into more than one machine (which BTW the female you mentioned was
>: logged into two machines at the time). However it is ridiculous to expect
>: students to baby-sit a machine for 12 hours, or even 2 days in one case.
>
>There *is* a way around this problem and it is one which many other 
>universities use. Simply require all students to own a computer. The 
 [more drivel deleted]

	Typical Steve, instead of saying "ooops, I was wrong, sorry
guys" you just try to change the thread to a different issue.


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!adm.csc.ncsu.edu!harrison
From: harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu (Lou Harrison)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 12:37:48 GMT
Organization: (Administration machine NCSU Dept. Computer Science)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4hc3qs$5vq@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hb4pq$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
>
>You want to find out about surplus? Find out where all the Macs are 
>that were once being used in CSC 200.
>
>Steve Crisp

 Oh, do tell, what happened to them?

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 3 Mar 1996 13:33:13 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4hc72p$5d0@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4has79$ul@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb4pq$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hc3qs$5vq@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Lou Harrison (harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4hb4pq$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
: >
: >You want to find out about surplus? Find out where all the Macs are 
: >that were once being used in CSC 200.
: 
:  Oh, do tell, what happened to them?

Don't know, Lou. What happened to them after they sat unused for at least 
6 months? Where did you put them? I know that many of them were in a 
storage closet for months. I also know that about 25 remained in the 
other half of the lab being used as paperweights. Has there finally been 
some disposition on them?

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!spkorb Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!spkorb
From: spkorb@unity.ncsu.edu (Sean Philip Korb)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 17:52:09 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 32
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Reply-To: spkorb@eos.ncsu.edu (Sean Philip Korb)
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In article <4hc72p$5d0@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, 
sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
> Lou Harrison (harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
> : In article <4hb4pq$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
> : >
> : >You want to find out about surplus? Find out where all the Macs are 
> : >that were once being used in CSC 200.
> : 
> :  Oh, do tell, what happened to them?
> 
> Don't know, Lou. What happened to them after they sat unused for at least 
> 6 months? Where did you put them? I know that many of them were in a 
> storage closet for months. I also know that about 25 remained in the 
> other half of the lab being used as paperweights. Has there finally been 
> some disposition on them?

Ooo!  Ooo!  I know!  I know!

In our super secret hideout for only the privaleged senior ops,
we're using them as a big Jepordy board to torture and intimidate
users who would otherwise squeal on us for our heavyhanded tactics.

We even bring in Alex Trebek!  The users crack in seconds!
(we've got pictures)

sean 8-)
--
My job is almost important enough so that folks need to know who I am:
Sean Korb:  Senior Operator, CSC Eos Computing Laboratories at NCSU
"Fight the power!" --Public Enemy
My homepage: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~spkorb/www/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin P. Neal)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 23:03:44 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
: need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
: 

We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.

(Oh, and be careful when referring to Amiga 3000s, Garvin. Mine
is running NetBSD right now, and I am thinking about installing SVR4
later. SVR4/Amiga was one of the first SVR4s to hit the market.)

-- 
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wstester Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wstester
From: wstester@unity.ncsu.edu (W. Scott Tester)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 3 Mar 1996 23:27:18 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4hd9sm$9dr@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
>: need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
>: 
>
>We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
>to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
>Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.

Yes, this is true.  We also have ECE seniors who can't do the something 
as trivial as sticking a cout into a piece of code.  A good portion of 
the complaints I get are people who can't figure out to add "-lm" to 
their compile string even though it explicitly sais to on the 
instructions.  Some people never learn....

One of my friends was showing me a PC in the CHASS lab where an OPERATOR
had stuck a CD-ROM into a 5.25" floppy drive and got it stuck.  Yes, I
said an OPERATOR.  Others have tried to fold 5.25" disks and shove them
into 3.5" disk drives, but at least they weren't OPs.  Then there's the
guy who couldn't figure out what to do with the printer that claimed it
was "offline" or the girl who couldn't double-click.  I'll never forget
her.  It just goes on and on...  :-)

Long live higher ed....

Scott


>XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
>XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
>XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
>XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------


--
+++------------------------------------------+++---------------------------+++
|||                                          |||                           |||
|||            W. Scott Tester               |||    See Jack.              |||
||| Senior, Electrical/Computer Engineering  |||    See Jill.              |||
|||         Scott_Tester@ncsu.edu            |||    Jack sees Jill         |||
|||   http://scaredy.catt.ncsu.edu/~scott    |||    Bye, Jack. Bye, Jill.  |||
|||                                          |||                           |||
+++------------------------------------------+++---------------------------+++

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 01:32:26 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2530 ncsu.eos:695 ncsu.unity:536

Kevin P. Neal (kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: : Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
: : need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
: 
: We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
: to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
: Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.

That's why most manufactures are going to open architecture. Your basic 
freshman in any discipline needs minimum 8 meg RAM, 500 meg hard drive, 
running at 80+ MHz. Those in the scientific arena can add another 8 meg 
right off the bat and go for 100+ Mhz up front. As one progresses 
through their academic career, they add more RAM and external memory as 
needed. They add accelleraters and clock chippers or do a mother-board 
up-grade as needed. Really, imagine this. The university obtains new 
equipment for re-sale to students-only at an insanely low contract rate. 
If a student initially goes with a 601 processor and then finds a need to 
up-grade to a 604, all they do is bring down their existing machine to 
hardware services and pay an upgrade charge. The old motherboard is 
refurbished, tested, and placed in another machine to be sold as used to 
another student who needs it.

Design students may need a video card or 6X CD-ROM. CHASS students 
probably need only a 2X CD-rom drive and a 14" monitor. Those in 
aerospace have their eye on that 21" monitor monster so that's what they 
go with up front.

And software? Site licenses for everything held by the university and 
students pay the pro-rated charge for each program they use during their 
stay at NCSU. The university actually has this in place now, but it is 
only available for faculty and staff. Why shouldn't a student be able to 
get MicroSoft Office to use on their own computer for $50 or so  
with the program up-grades available as they come out? There is no reason 
not to. 

A side benefit to all this is that the demands on CC drop significantly. 
CC servers then become basically ones net connection and a place to act 
as turn-in storage for assignments. If individual departments require 
massive computing power or storage requirements for their individual 
students, then those individual departments provide the servers on which 
the students can do their work; CC then acts only as a conduit from a 
students machine to the departmental servers and the students computer 
become no more than a terminal. That is how some of PAMS is set up now. 
Folks sit at home and tie to the Indigo monsters in the BOM; they telnet 
over to RTP and access the Crays when they need to. CC is out of the loop 
except in providing the lines.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu!wjcuthre Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu!wjcuthre
From: wjcuthre@unity.ncsu.edu (William Jason Cuthrell)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 01:37:23 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4hdhgj$au4@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2531 ncsu.www:324 ncsu.eos:696 ncsu.unity:537

Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: There *is* a way around this problem and it is one which many other 
: universities use. Simply require all students to own a computer. The 
: problem with doing so is that it upsets the cart over in financial aid. 

hmm...  you are full of it on this one Steve and the thread's previous 
contents as well...  but I have to add:

1)  have you ever taken the time to read the system policy?
2)  have you ever taken the time to _ask_ for clarification?
3)  do you know what a screen lock means? seriously?
4)  do you understand the concept of a site license?

I am running simulations too Steve and I know a great many folks who run 
into this problem...  but there are options beyond using xlock 

once again... you have less than 1/3 of a clue...

Is this part of Lou's job description?

uh.. no.

--
  /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
 /  Jay Cuthrell [Q-thrul] wjcuthre@eos.ncsu.edu  \
/ http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/w/wjcuthre/www/   \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi K. Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 02:00:20 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2533 ncsu.eos:698 ncsu.unity:539

In article <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
>: need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
>: 
>
>We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
>to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
>Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.
>
>(Oh, and be careful when referring to Amiga 3000s, Garvin. Mine
>is running NetBSD right now, and I am thinking about installing SVR4
>later. SVR4/Amiga was one of the first SVR4s to hit the market.)

I thought installing System V would be blasphemous to someone who
preaches *BSD as much as you? :)

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi K. Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 02:03:56 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4hdj2c$avq@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd9sm$9dr@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2534 ncsu.eos:699 ncsu.unity:540

In article <4hd9sm$9dr@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
W. Scott Tester <wstester@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>One of my friends was showing me a PC in the CHASS lab where an OPERATOR
>had stuck a CD-ROM into a 5.25" floppy drive and got it stuck.  Yes, I
>said an OPERATOR.  Others have tried to fold 5.25" disks and shove them
>into 3.5" disk drives, but at least they weren't OPs.  Then there's the
>guy who couldn't figure out what to do with the printer that claimed it
>was "offline" or the girl who couldn't double-click.  I'll never forget
>her.  It just goes on and on...  :-)

Reminds me of a story a sunsite admin told me from the Bastard Operator
Handbook, or maybe it was another sunsite admin...  This guy used
to keep the actual inside disk from a 5.25" floppy in his front
shirt pocket folded up in a triangular fashion kind of like one
of those fancy napkins.  Whenever a clueless person came up asking
to "fix their account" he'd unfold the floppy and put it in and
try to read off the disk.  Well it was funny when he told it to me...

Ravi 

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu (Nalin Dahyabhai)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 02:06:55 GMT
Organization: N.C. State University
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: argus.rh.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2535 ncsu.eos:700 ncsu.unity:541

On 4 Mar 1996 01:32:26 GMT, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: That's why most manufactures are going to open architecture. Your basic 
: freshman in any discipline needs minimum 8 meg RAM, 500 meg hard drive, 
: running at 80+ MHz. Those in the scientific arena can add another 8 meg 
: right off the bat and go for 100+ Mhz up front. As one progresses 
: through their academic career, they add more RAM and external memory as 
: needed. They add accelleraters and clock chippers or do a mother-board 
: up-grade as needed. Really, imagine this. The university obtains new 
: equipment for re-sale to students-only at an insanely low contract rate. 
: If a student initially goes with a 601 processor and then finds a need to 
: up-grade to a 604, all they do is bring down their existing machine to 
: hardware services and pay an upgrade charge. The old motherboard is 
: refurbished, tested, and placed in another machine to be sold as used to 
: another student who needs it.

I like the idea. But the rate at which technology advances is going to make
that 604 or 486 obsolete by the time the student brings it back, so that the
entry-level processors are going to be almost useless within the time the
student has it....

: Design students may need a video card or 6X CD-ROM. CHASS students 
: probably need only a 2X CD-rom drive and a 14" monitor. Those in 
: aerospace have their eye on that 21" monitor monster so that's what they 
: go with up front.

Hmmm... others have made the point that some students wouldn't even know
what these terms mean and therefore can't guage their needs, but they could
get some help. Another thing is that though some equipment (Pentium 133, 16
megs of RAM, 6x CD-ROM) may be a good idea, you can often make do with less
(486/80, 8 megs, quad-speed)...

: And software? Site licenses for everything held by the university and 
: students pay the pro-rated charge for each program they use during their 
: stay at NCSU. The university actually has this in place now, but it is 
: only available for faculty and staff. Why shouldn't a student be able to 
: get MicroSoft Office to use on their own computer for $50 or so  
: with the program up-grades available as they come out? There is no reason 
: not to. 

If the software companies are amenable to it, I'd love to see this happen...
and throw in some programming tools, too.

: A side benefit to all this is that the demands on CC drop significantly. 
: CC servers then become basically ones net connection and a place to act 
: as turn-in storage for assignments. 

Again, this is possible (as far as I can see), but don't expect *every*
student to go with it. I think we could check with people on the residence
hall net and compare how much time they spend logged in on Unity with those
who don't have a connection of their own... I for one would spend at least
three times as much time on Eos/Unity were it not for my box...

-- 
Nalin Dahyabhai nalin@argus.rh.ncsu.edu
  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nsdahya1/www/


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 03:15:14 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hadh7$va6@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4haqtu$nk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2537 ncsu.eos:702 ncsu.unity:543

Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I like the idea. But the rate at which technology advances is going to make
: that 604 or 486 obsolete by the time the student brings it back, so that the
: entry-level processors are going to be almost useless within the time the
: student has it....

To an extent, you have a point, but I think you overestimate the needs of 
most users based on what you (probably) need. For someone who needs a 
wordprocessor, a spreadsheet, and a database program an old 386 or 030 
running System 6 works just fine. And they will still work just fine for 
those operations 10 years from now even if the aerospace engineer has 
liquid-bubble, neuro-processing memory for their uses.

: Hmmm... others have made the point that some students wouldn't even know
: what these terms mean and therefore can't guage their needs, but they could
: get some help. 

At some point, there will be guidelines formulated for minimum standards 
based on curriculum. Someone in Political Science would have a specific 
minimum platform recommendation which would differ from someone in Animal 
Science. Every freshman would have a required computer literacy course 
their first semester in which the very first thing taught would be a word 
processing program. This would be followed by whatever is more germane to 
the individual major. Those in business would get Excel next. Those in 
math would get Mathetica. And so on and so forth. Any student who already 
knew how to use specific programs could place out of any particular 
module of the course and attend only those weeks in which the student did 
not have a grasp on a particular program.

: Another thing is that though some equipment (Pentium 133, 16
: megs of RAM, 6x CD-ROM) may be a good idea, you can often make do with less
: (486/80, 8 megs, quad-speed)...

And that becomes the option of the student as a freshman to decide what 
base machine he or she wants and then what to add or up-grade later. I 
started with 8 meg RAM, 250 internal HD, 2X CD-ROM on an 030. I'm now on 
an 040 with 40 meg RAM, a total of 3 gigs of storage, a 4X CD-ROM and am 
soon going to a 604 with 136 meg RAM, 6X CD-ROM, and a CD burner for mass 
storage. And I started out with a 1200 baud modem and I'm now up to 28.8. 
I was looking at going ISDN, but something came up. Oh, what the 
hell...I'll fill you in here and now (and those who are reading this 
thread will start drooling.)

I spoke with the head engineer at Cablevision of Raleigh the other day 
and we were talking about my needs versus what they were going to offer 
as a result of the telecommunications bill recently passed. I explained 
to him that I was thinking about going ISDN, but wanted to find out what 
they had in store before I made that commitment. He told me that in my 
area (Avent Ferry and Gorman) within a year we would have 27 service. So 
I'm thinking, what the hell is 27 and why would I even want it since it's 
slower than the 28.8 I now use. He then pointed out that he did not mean 
27,000 baud, but 27 MILLION baud. I like to shit in my pants. The target 
for my area is one year and with a target price of $30 per month. They 
also intend to provide hundreds of channels on TV (I'm gonna hold of on 
DSS as well then) and local telephone service. All on optic fiber on 
digital with local decoders to convert for existing broadcasting 
equipment, but fully adaptable for the new standard TVs soon to hit the 
market.

: If the software companies are amenable to it, I'd love to see this happen...
: and throw in some programming tools, too.

And why should they not be? It's a no brainer on their part. Would they 
rather derive income from existing educational program discounts for say 
1000 students or generate income for an inexpensive site license for 
25,000 students? And they wouldn't have to worry about pirating after a 
student leaves school either. Simply set an expiration on the program 
that is tied to a cumulative clock (so that one can not override an 
expiration by simply re-setting the system clock.) Every semester, each 
student gets an up-grade key when they renew their registration. That 
number could be tied to previous keys so that any students up-grade 
passcode would only work on the specific program that the student 
previously licensed for him- or herself. That way you couldn't just give 
the disk to you friend who has graduated. The personal checks would not 
match. (Unless, of course, you just gave them the whole program which is 
a violation of current use laws anyway.)

: : A side benefit to all this is that the demands on CC drop significantly. 
: : CC servers then become basically ones net connection and a place to act 
: : as turn-in storage for assignments. 
: 
: Again, this is possible (as far as I can see), but don't expect *every*
: student to go with it. I think we could check with people on the residence
: hall net and compare how much time they spend logged in on Unity with those
: who don't have a connection of their own... I for one would spend at least
: three times as much time on Eos/Unity were it not for my box...

Could you clarify this further? I'm not sure what you are stating here. 
Would you use the system more or less if you had your own computer? And 
how would a student having their own computer affect unity/eos usage in 
your opinion?

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:12 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 03:26:31 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4hdnt7$bpv@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2538 ncsu.eos:703 ncsu.unity:544

Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: math would get Mathetica. 

Obviously, I meant Mathematica, but that brings up a small addition. When 
I stated introductory course what I was referring to was just that - a 
beginners course in the basics. No one is going to become proficient in 
any program in two to four weeks. That is what additional courses are 
for. So that the first semester, everyone learns specific basics germane 
to their academic discipline and in subsequent semesters additional full 
semester courses or half-semester mini-courses are offered which go into 
particular programs in depth. One would then take a semester or 
mini-course offering in Mathematica, Photoshop, advanced Excel, or any 
other program that has subtle intricacies and increased difficulty of 
operation beyond the basics.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko
From: wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu (Rally Vincent)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 04:49:11 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bob.catt.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2542 ncsu.eos:704 ncsu.unity:545

In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: I like the idea. But the rate at which technology advances is going to make
>: that 604 or 486 obsolete by the time the student brings it back, so that the
>: entry-level processors are going to be almost useless within the time the
>: student has it....
>
>To an extent, you have a point, but I think you overestimate the needs of 
>most users based on what you (probably) need. For someone who needs a 

I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>

When my neighbor got a Pentium 150 to run Quicken on, well I just had to laugh.

>wordprocessor, a spreadsheet, and a database program an old 386 or 030 
>running System 6 works just fine. And they will still work just fine for 
>those operations 10 years from now even if the aerospace engineer has 
>liquid-bubble, neuro-processing memory for their uses.

Hey, I've got that now.  5 femto second access time.

>: Hmmm... others have made the point that some students wouldn't even know
>: what these terms mean and therefore can't guage their needs, but they could
>: get some help. 
>
>At some point, there will be guidelines formulated for minimum standards 
>based on curriculum. Someone in Political Science would have a specific 
>minimum platform recommendation which would differ from someone in Animal 
>Science. Every freshman would have a required computer literacy course 
>their first semester in which the very first thing taught would be a word 

I know that nearly all engineers take E115 their first semester but
why not make the others take that CSC 200 (or whatever that lame course is)
their first semester as well?  I saw some of the things they do. 
I don't care if you're taking 18 hours.  You could still handle the
extra load from something that lame.

>processing program. This would be followed by whatever is more germane to 
>the individual major. Those in business would get Excel next. Those in 
>math would get Mathetica. And so on and so forth. Any student who already 

But I thought we all liked Maple so much?

>knew how to use specific programs could place out of any particular 
>module of the course and attend only those weeks in which the student did 
>not have a grasp on a particular program.

Well in the case of E115 you can easily place out.  I think you have
to be braindead to not place out.

>: Another thing is that though some equipment (Pentium 133, 16
>: megs of RAM, 6x CD-ROM) may be a good idea, you can often make do with less
>: (486/80, 8 megs, quad-speed)...
>
>And that becomes the option of the student as a freshman to decide what 
>base machine he or she wants and then what to add or up-grade later. I 
>started with 8 meg RAM, 250 internal HD, 2X CD-ROM on an 030. I'm now on 
>an 040 with 40 meg RAM, a total of 3 gigs of storage, a 4X CD-ROM and am 

Wow, I only have 16 mb ram and 2.1 gigs of space.

>soon going to a 604 with 136 meg RAM, 6X CD-ROM, and a CD burner for mass 
>storage. And I started out with a 1200 baud modem and I'm now up to 28.8. 

I think I'm going to get one of those phase change optical drives
that double as a 4X cdrom drive.  The cheapest CD burner I've seen
is $999 and the cheapest PD/CD drive was $470 and you can write to
these over and over.

>I was looking at going ISDN, but something came up. Oh, what the 
>hell...I'll fill you in here and now (and those who are reading this 
>thread will start drooling.)

Hmm, well I'm already kind of drooling.  Can't say over what...

>I spoke with the head engineer at Cablevision of Raleigh the other day 
>and we were talking about my needs versus what they were going to offer 

Are the FAQ committee's needs his needs?

>as a result of the telecommunications bill recently passed. I explained 
>to him that I was thinking about going ISDN, but wanted to find out what 
>they had in store before I made that commitment. He told me that in my 
>area (Avent Ferry and Gorman) within a year we would have 27 service. So 
>I'm thinking, what the hell is 27 and why would I even want it since it's 
>slower than the 28.8 I now use. He then pointed out that he did not mean 
>27,000 baud, but 27 MILLION baud. I like to shit in my pants. The target 

I prefer to use the toilet for that.  Do you do this a lot?  What
kind of detergent do you use?  Actually you should ask Mattingly if
you need help.  I heard he cleans lots of baby diapers since he's
trying to pick up the 1 year olds now that he's become desperate.

>for my area is one year and with a target price of $30 per month. They 

Any more specifics?  $30 fee for "service" in addition to charges
per minute?  I'd probably want a flat fee unlimited rate.  And
none of that Compuserve-esque bullshit censoring of groups.

>also intend to provide hundreds of channels on TV (I'm gonna hold of on 

So instead of 57 channels and nothing good is on it'll be 570 channels
and nothing good is on.

>DSS as well then) and local telephone service. All on optic fiber on 
>digital with local decoders to convert for existing broadcasting 
>equipment, but fully adaptable for the new standard TVs soon to hit the 
>market.
>
>: If the software companies are amenable to it, I'd love to see this happen...
>: and throw in some programming tools, too.

I know we're talking about the non engineers but I can get just about
everything I need for free with source anyway.

[stuff cut]

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu (Nalin Dahyabhai)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 05:59:15 GMT
Organization: N.C. State University
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4he0rj$d2q@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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On 4 Mar 1996 03:15:14 GMT, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: To an extent, you have a point, but I think you overestimate the needs of 
: most users based on what you (probably) need. For someone who needs a 
: wordprocessor, a spreadsheet, and a database program an old 386 or 030 
: running System 6 works just fine. And they will still work just fine for 
: those operations 10 years from now even if the aerospace engineer has 
: liquid-bubble, neuro-processing memory for their uses.

I agree with you there, but (and I have to use x86 platforms as a base here
because that's what I actually own) when was the last time you saw something
as resource hungry as Microsoft Word or Excel (and I mean the current
shipping versions here, not stuff that's three years old) running on a
386/16 with 4 megabytes of RAM? Sure, an older computer is just dandy for
running Wordperfect 5.1 and Lotus 1-2-3, but people who use these programs
would think of the performance as intolerable. They like to stay current,
even if the newer versions have no new features that they actually find
useful -- and I'll save that one for another thread ("who actually uses all
of those whiz-bang features?").

: : Another thing is that though some equipment (Pentium 133, 16
: : megs of RAM, 6x CD-ROM) may be a good idea, you can often make do with less
: : (486/80, 8 megs, quad-speed)...
: 
: And that becomes the option of the student as a freshman to decide what 
: base machine he or she wants and then what to add or up-grade later. I 
: started with 8 meg RAM, 250 internal HD, 2X CD-ROM on an 030. I'm now on 
: an 040 with 40 meg RAM, a total of 3 gigs of storage, a 4X CD-ROM and am 
: soon going to a 604 with 136 meg RAM, 6X CD-ROM, and a CD burner for mass 
: storage. And I started out with a 1200 baud modem and I'm now up to 28.8. 

But aside from the faster modem, did you actually *need* those upgrades? The
hardware I use pales in comparison to most other systems I've heard my
friends have, but I get the same things done (FYI, it IS a 486 with only 8
megs of RAM).

[ Re: Requiring students to buy and use their own computers for coursework ]
: : : A side benefit to all this is that the demands on CC drop significantly. 
: : : CC servers then become basically ones net connection and a place to act 
: : : as turn-in storage for assignments. 
: : 
: : Again, this is possible (as far as I can see), but don't expect *every*
: : student to go with it. I think we could check with people on the residence
: : hall net and compare how much time they spend logged in on Unity with those
: : who don't have a connection of their own... I for one would spend at least
: : three times as much time on Eos/Unity were it not for my box...
: 
: Could you clarify this further? I'm not sure what you are stating here. 
: Would you use the system more or less if you had your own computer? And 
: how would a student having their own computer affect unity/eos usage in 
: your opinion?

Well, given that many the same programs I use on Eos are availible under
Linux (like Spice or GCC) or DOS/Windows (word processors and spreadsheets),
I think I use the labs less than I would if I didn't have my computer. Of
course, I've had my PC since I entered NCSU, so I don't have a real basis
for comparison... 

-- 
Nalin Dahyabhai nalin@argus.rh.ncsu.edu
  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nsdahya1/www/


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 12:26:57 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I know that nearly all engineers take E115 their first semester but
: why not make the others take that CSC 200 (or whatever that lame course is)
: their first semester as well?  I saw some of the things they do. 
: I don't care if you're taking 18 hours.  You could still handle the
: extra load from something that lame.

I want you to pretent that you are a budding surgeon entering medical 
school. On the second day of class they bring you into an operating 
theater and hand you a scalpel; you have to perform an emergency 
appendectomy on a patient in front of you. And you can't say no.

From a technical standpoint, there is not much difference between that 
scenario and an analysis of the learning curve in computer science. 
People who have never used computers are truly terrified at the thought 
of sitting down and using one. They have no idea of where to begin; even 
something as simple as point and click is a challenge as they try to 
exactly place the cursor on the dead center of an icon - slowly and 
meticulously. Just as you would stand there with a scalpel in your hand 
knowing that you needed to go in somewhere in the lower, right quadrant 
but not quite sure where or with how much pressure.

Yet, after the first few days, the certain mechanical aspects become 
rote; a student doesn't even think of timing and pressure for a double 
click anymore; they just do it as needed. These tasks become cognitively 
automated. Compare to the surgeon again. Many good surgeons don't even 
open their own patients. Someone else does and then the lead surgeon 
takes over; something as rote (to them) as the initial incision is a 
waste of their time.

You (meaning *everyone* in computer science) needs to start going much 
easier on the ones who know far less than you and need to start helping a 
bit more.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 12:32:55 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4hentn$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I agree with you there, but (and I have to use x86 platforms as a base here
: because that's what I actually own) when was the last time you saw something
: as resource hungry as Microsoft Word or Excel (and I mean the current
: shipping versions here, not stuff that's three years old) running on a
: 386/16 with 4 megabytes of RAM? Sure, an older computer is just dandy for
: running Wordperfect 5.1 and Lotus 1-2-3, but people who use these programs
: would think of the performance as intolerable. They like to stay current,
: even if the newer versions have no new features that they actually find
: useful -- and I'll save that one for another thread ("who actually uses all
: of those whiz-bang features?").

Who needs the latest version? I'm still running Word 5.1 with no 
intention of jumping to 6.0 ever. I'll probably continue to run system 
7.5 for a long time after Copeland comes out. I get what works for my 
needs and stick with it until something better than an incremental change 
arrives.

: But aside from the faster modem, did you actually *need* those upgrades? The
: hardware I use pales in comparison to most other systems I've heard my
: friends have, but I get the same things done (FYI, it IS a 486 with only 8
: megs of RAM).

I do image processing - using mother RAM-hog applications and 
manipulating 40+ meg images.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsjohnso@unity.ncsu.edu (Nathan Scott Johnson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 13:45:32 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4hes5s$c5e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: I want you to pretent that you are a budding surgeon entering medical 
: school. On the second day of class they bring you into an operating 
: theater and hand you a scalpel; you have to perform an emergency 
: appendectomy on a patient in front of you. And you can't say no.
Somehow, clicking on the icon labeled "Mac Appendix" and dragging it to the
trash can doesn't seem to hold *nearly* the urgency or need for perfection as
does actually removing a *real* appendix.  The worst someone with little or 
no knowledge someone can do to a computer is software, and with the way things
are set up here, two hours and everybody's happy again.  You cut the wrong
thing inside someone, and their death will be the least of your worries. 

: You (meaning *everyone* in computer science) needs to start going much 
: easier on the ones who know far less than you and need to start helping a 
: bit more.
Why do you think operators exist in the first place?  Which department pays for
the operators to sit in 100lez and 224wi so that questions can be answered,
rules can be enforced, and machines stay in some resemblance of working order?
The last time I checked, too, there was a lab of around 30 Sparc5's dedicated
to CSC200 on the top floor of Leazar.  If computer science needs to start going
easier, what do you have to say for the other departments on campus?

									...nate

- Nathan S Johnson (nate@ncsu.edu) (+1.919.515.3909)
- Computing Facilities Administrations Manager
- North Carolina State University, Department of Computer Science
- The time is now! (email me for details)

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi K. Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 13:49:41 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4hesdl$5a5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c01012-313mn.eos.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2554 ncsu.eos:712 ncsu.unity:553

In article <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: I know that nearly all engineers take E115 their first semester but
>: why not make the others take that CSC 200 (or whatever that lame course is)
>: their first semester as well?  I saw some of the things they do. 
>: I don't care if you're taking 18 hours.  You could still handle the
>: extra load from something that lame.
>
>I want you to pretent that you are a budding surgeon entering medical 

Pretend nothing.  My part time job is being a surgeon over in Wakko
Medical Center.

>school. On the second day of class they bring you into an operating 
>theater and hand you a scalpel; you have to perform an emergency 
>appendectomy on a patient in front of you. And you can't say no.
>
>From a technical standpoint, there is not much difference between that 
>scenario and an analysis of the learning curve in computer science. 
>People who have never used computers are truly terrified at the thought 
>of sitting down and using one. They have no idea of where to begin; even 
>something as simple as point and click is a challenge as they try to 
>exactly place the cursor on the dead center of an icon - slowly and 
>meticulously. Just as you would stand there with a scalpel in your hand 
>knowing that you needed to go in somewhere in the lower, right quadrant 
>but not quite sure where or with how much pressure.

I've worked with some people almost like that.  I guess I see your
point but even my two friends in accounting and soil science found
the class to be pretty easy and neither had used a computer for much
more than playing Doom.

>Yet, after the first few days, the certain mechanical aspects become 
>rote; a student doesn't even think of timing and pressure for a double 
>click anymore; they just do it as needed. These tasks become cognitively 
>automated. Compare to the surgeon again. Many good surgeons don't even 
>open their own patients. Someone else does and then the lead surgeon 
>takes over; something as rote (to them) as the initial incision is a 
>waste of their time.
>
>You (meaning *everyone* in computer science) needs to start going much 
>easier on the ones who know far less than you and need to start helping a 
>bit more.

Hey, I'm in computer engineering, but I know what you mean.  Unfortunately
its not easy.  I learned a lot more working in RTP this summer with
some stupid people.  I quickly got the hang of treading lightly and
not calling the boss a moron when he didn't know something.

Ravi 

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes
From: cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 14:21:56 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2556 ncsu.eos:713 ncsu.unity:554

In article <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Rally Vincent <wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>>Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
>for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
>is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>
With a sun 4/260 that needs 3 shoeboxes to hold all the disks, i think
mine's bigger.
>
>When my neighbor got a Pentium 150 to run Quicken on, well I just had to laugh.
And to think, your neighbor doesn't get two tubes with that either.

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi K. Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 15:13:59 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4hf1bn$bji@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2558 ncsu.eos:714 ncsu.unity:555


In article <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) writes:
>In article <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>Rally Vincent <wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>>In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>>Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>>>Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>>I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
>>for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
>>is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>
>With a sun 4/260 that needs 3 shoeboxes to hold all the disks, i think
>mine's bigger.

Science and Math has a bunch of machines like that.  The things were
huge and the fans were quite loud.

>>When my neighbor got a Pentium 150 to run Quicken on, well I just had to laugh.
>And to think, your neighbor doesn't get two tubes with that either.

Nobody ever accused this guy of being smart, just rich.

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 15:34:06 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4hf2he$gtt@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hes5s$c5e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2562 ncsu.eos:716 ncsu.unity:557

Nathan Scott Johnson (nsjohnso@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Somehow, clicking on the icon labeled "Mac Appendix" and dragging it to the
: trash can doesn't seem to hold *nearly* the urgency or need for perfection as
: does actually removing a *real* appendix.  The worst someone with little or 
: no knowledge someone can do to a computer is software, and with the way things
: are set up here, two hours and everybody's happy again.  You cut the wrong
: thing inside someone, and their death will be the least of your worries. 

No analogy is perfect, but I think if you get past whatever biases you 
have, you can see the illustration.

: Why do you think operators exist in the first place?  Which department pays for
: the operators to sit in 100lez and 224wi so that questions can be answered,
: rules can be enforced, and machines stay in some resemblance of working order?
: The last time I checked, too, there was a lab of around 30 Sparc5's dedicated
: to CSC200 on the top floor of Leazar.  If computer science needs to start going
: easier, what do you have to say for the other departments on campus?

I don't know. Why *do* we have operators? In almost every interaction I 
have seen between a neophyte and an operator, the operator uses language 
that presumes a fairly extensive knowledge of the part of the questioner. 
Now, if the questioner has that superstructure of knowledge then a 
question may be satisfactorily answered, but as we saw several posts back 
there is a reluctance borne of incredulity to believe that a user can be as 
ignorant as many of them are. someone learning will only tolerate so much 
open disdain before they give up.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin
From: garvin@unity.ncsu.edu (Michael Arthur Garvin)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 17:55:51 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 26
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References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Kevin P. Neal (kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: : Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
>: : need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
>:
>: We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
>: to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
>: Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.
>
>Really, imagine this. The university obtains new 
>equipment for re-sale to students-only at an insanely low contract rate. 

	It hasn't been said yet, so I'll say it...

	Umstead Act.

	One need not agree with it, but we have to abide by it.  Of course, it
is an election year...

-- 
| Michael Garvin    \    North Carolina State University College of Engineering
| Systems Programmer \   Information Technology & Engineering Computer Services
| garvin@eos.ncsu.edu \  5 Page Hall, Box 7901 NCSU Campus,  Raleigh,  NC 27695
| (919) 515-2458       \                  http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/staff/garvin/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:26:09 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4hfck1$iro@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfar7$bo8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Michael Arthur Garvin (garvin@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: >Really, imagine this. The university obtains new 
: >equipment for re-sale to students-only at an insanely low contract rate. 
: 
: 	It hasn't been said yet, so I'll say it...
: 
: 	Umstead Act.

That doesn't currently stop the NCSU bookstore from selling computers and 
software at a steep educational discount. Nor does it stop them from 
selling required textbooks for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, the 
Umstead Act only applies to those material goods that have no direct link 
to academics and the intent of the university (in this case.) Certainly a 
computer system required for use in a academic setting qualifies for 
inclusion in an academic exception.

And if I'm again not mistaken, part of the Umstead Act specifically 
dis-allows the sale of university procured or manufactured items to the 
general public; *that* would amount to trade intrusion. By limiting sale 
of systems to only those currently registered half-time or greater, one 
could easily side-step both the letter and the spirit of the law.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin P. Neal)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:43:46 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Ravi K. Swamy (rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
: Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: >: 
: >: Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
: >: need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
: >: 
: >
: >We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
: >to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
: >Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.
: >
: >(Oh, and be careful when referring to Amiga 3000s, Garvin. Mine
: >is running NetBSD right now, and I am thinking about installing SVR4
: >later. SVR4/Amiga was one of the first SVR4s to hit the market.)
: 
: I thought installing System V would be blasphemous to someone who
: preaches *BSD as much as you? :)
: 

Amix has it's neat points. For example: If you man something that has
multiple man pages, like time(1) and time(2), it brings up a listing
of the multiple pages, and asks you which ones you want to see. It
can also show all of the matching pages one after the other.

Sounds cool to me. It also has a permuted index, in case you want to
see, for example, the "signaling" functions. Neat. 

The idea being to find the cool little things in Amix and rewrite
them for NetBSD.

Course, to install Amix and NetBSD and AmigaDOS on one machine requires
writing a boot manager that doesn't require AmigaDOS. I can do that,
just give me time. The NetBSD can have boot blocks itself, instead of
requiring an AmigaDOS loadbsd program. I know how to do this, I just
have a time problem. 

SVR4 has some neat features. AIX has lots and lots of neat features.
The idea is to take the cool ones and integrate them into *BSD, and
leave the piss-poor ideas in Vland. 

-- 
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin P. Neal)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:49:57 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4hfe0l$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
: Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: >
: >: I like the idea. But the rate at which technology advances is going to make
: >: that 604 or 486 obsolete by the time the student brings it back, so that the
: >: entry-level processors are going to be almost useless within the time the
: >: student has it....
: >
: >To an extent, you have a point, but I think you overestimate the needs of 
: >most users based on what you (probably) need. For someone who needs a 
: 
: I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
: for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
: is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>
: 

You can always go the route I go. "Oh yeah, well my computer weighs more
than you! And it's slower than every other computer on the floor!"

: When my neighbor got a Pentium 150 to run Quicken on, well I just had to laugh.

I got bored on day and wrote a checkbook balancing program with lex and yacc.
On a 25Mhz '030 with 14mb of RAM and less than 500mb of drive. Scary 
things happen when you give me old, shitty, out of date hardware. I
can run a 115k ISDN line with a 386/33.

-- 
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin P. Neal)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:52:30 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4hfe5e$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdh7a$8l5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4henih$f2r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: : I know that nearly all engineers take E115 their first semester but
: : why not make the others take that CSC 200 (or whatever that lame course is)
: : their first semester as well?  I saw some of the things they do. 
: : I don't care if you're taking 18 hours.  You could still handle the
: : extra load from something that lame.
: 

: You (meaning *everyone* in computer science) needs to start going much 
: easier on the ones who know far less than you and need to start helping a 
: bit more.
: 

Funny, I don't remember you on the "help" instance asking questions.
When I see somebody ask a question that I can answer, I generally
do answer that person.

--
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!crazytrain.eos.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin P. Neal)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:54:39 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
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References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdj7v$b9j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hf1bn$bji@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Ravi K. Swamy (rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: In article <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) writes:
: >In article <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
: >Rally Vincent <wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >>In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
: >>Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >>>Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: >>I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
: >>for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
: >>is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>
: >With a sun 4/260 that needs 3 shoeboxes to hold all the disks, i think
: >mine's bigger.
: 
: Science and Math has a bunch of machines like that.  The things were
: huge and the fans were quite loud.
: 

I use a 3/260 and I quite like it. Very stable. I just bumped mine up
to 24mb of RAM. It helps to use 3 1/2" drives in it as well (I do
have a power bill to pay, you know).

-- 
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore CSC/CPE     kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu 
XCOMM North Carolina State University      kevinneal@bix.com
XCOMM --------------------------------------------------------

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 19:29:41 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Kevin P. Neal (kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Amix has it's neat points. For example: If you man something that has
: multiple man pages, like time(1) and time(2), it brings up a listing
: of the multiple pages, and asks you which ones you want to see. It
: can also show all of the matching pages one after the other.

Case in point here (and I'm not meaning to knock you specifically Kevin - 
you just happen to be handy.) when one asks the average OP or consultant 
a question about informational resources this is typical of the answer 
one gets. Now, someone with a lot of experience using computers would 
know exactly what was meant, but someone without remains clueless. And if 
that clueless person asks for clarification the OP usually has little to 
add that the questioner can understand.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news
From: k_ring@eos.ncsu.edu (Kevin Ring)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:39:12 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) babbled endlessly about:

:Kevin P. Neal (kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

:: Amix has it's neat points. For example: If you man something that has
:: multiple man pages, like time(1) and time(2), it brings up a listing
:: of the multiple pages, and asks you which ones you want to see. It
:: can also show all of the matching pages one after the other.

:Case in point here (and I'm not meaning to knock you specifically Kevin - 
:you just happen to be handy.) when one asks the average OP or consultant 
:a question about informational resources this is typical of the answer 
:one gets. Now, someone with a lot of experience using computers would 
:know exactly what was meant, but someone without remains clueless. And if 
:that clueless person asks for clarification the OP usually has little to 
:add that the questioner can understand.


How do you know what op's do?  You don't even have access to EOS labs
where 90% of the op's work.  I have had no problem getting answers
from the ops and the answers they have given other users have been
perfectly coherent.  Once again, you speak of something you do not
know




From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:13 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 19:43:55 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4hfh5r$juq@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgth$ffi@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Kevin Ring (k_ring@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: How do you know what op's do?  You don't even have access to EOS labs
: where 90% of the op's work.  I have had no problem getting answers
: from the ops and the answers they have given other users have been
: perfectly coherent.  Once again, you speak of something you do not
: know

Another case in point. You automatically assume that OPs are only in 
areas serviced by EOS. What about CHASS students who need to use the 
unity system? What about AG&Life? What about Design? All those folks 
need to use the public facilities as well and they are not being serviced 
properly.

Wake up, Kevin. The whole fucking world does not revolve computer science 
majors and engineers.

Steve Crisp


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:02:24 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Reply-To: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu
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In ncsu.general, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Case in point here (and I'm not meaning to knock you specifically Kevin - 
: you just happen to be handy.) when one asks the average OP or consultant 
: a question about informational resources this is typical of the answer 
: one gets. Now, someone with a lot of experience using computers would 
: know exactly what was meant, but someone without remains clueless. And if 
: that clueless person asks for clarification the OP usually has little to 
: add that the questioner can understand.

This is why every computer-related department on campus should hire -me-. 
I mean that quite seriously, and also in a more general sense (i.e. people
-like- me).  Now, before you (the general "you," not "You, Crisp") think
that Gurk is going off on another of his egotistical trips, read the next
paragraph. 

Someone in a lab is having a problem with something.  90% of the time
(especially in Unity labs), I am equipped with the knowledge to fix that
person's problem.  There's one big difference between me and your average
moderately-knowledgeable computer jerk out there, though:  I speak common
English.  In other words, I communicate effectively the information the
user needs in a mode he/she/it can understand, and will be able to use in
the future so as to solve his/her/its problems. 

No, this isn't an attempt to put myself on a pedestal.  It's to illustrate
Steve's point about CSC and ENG types who aren't equipped to effectively
-help- the users who have honest questions.  Generally, a user simply
needs something explained in straightforward language, not an intense
geeking out, getting into extreme technical detail with lots of technical
terminology.  It -is- possible for users to understand without getting
bogged down in jargon, and that doesn't advocate keeping them in the dark
like mindless sheep.  It simply means bringing it to their level, a
foundation from which they can work their way up. 

This is why the first question I ask is, "How familiar are you with Unix?"

The second question I then ask is, "Would you like me to just fix it, or
explain to you how to fix it?"

The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 




                                         --Gurk, Unofficial, Unpaid,
                                           Freelance Consultant of 
                                           104hlb.

-- 
       ==  Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick  ==  GURK, PROPHET OF SMERP  ==
       ||  asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu  ||  Trust what I tell you.  ||
       ==  ncsu.soc --> ncsu.* -->  ==  triangle.general --> *  ==

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: bobj@unity.ncsu.edu (Bob Johnson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:17:37 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 
: 
: 
: 

I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *


-- 
Bob Johnson      
Unix Systems Programmer 
bobj@unity.ncsu.edu  
URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bobj/
Phone (919) 515-5483

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:28:48 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4hfjq0$ki2@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h
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Bob Johnson (bobj@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *

It was, and he's learned. Anytime I need help I usually contact Andy (if 
it concerns UNIX) or drmellow (if it involves Mac platforms.) Both those 
guys know the respective systems and can relate to those who are not 
hard-wired themselves. And people contact me for help in specific 
programs particularly Excel, Photoshop, and Illustrator because I am 
willing to walk someone through something at a language level that they 
can understand.

If someone is getting a scan that is too dark, I'm not gonna blow them 
off by telling them to adjust the gamma. I'm first gonna tell them what 
gamma is, where the controls are located, and how its adjustment will solve 
their problem.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news
From: rwhill@eos.ncsu.edu (Rodney W. Hill, II)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:33:54 GMT
Organization: NCSU
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <4hfk3i$jva@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu said on 2 
Mar 1996 16:12:08 GMT
>
>I initially tacked this on to a running thread, but it was just too good 
>to bury in something that people might not be currently reading. Here's 
>just another example of the utter arrogance and incompetence of some of 
>our staff people at NCSU...
>
>
>Lou Harrison (harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
> 
>: Well, Tim, Steve is WTVD's internet expert, too!  No wonder that they
>: aren't on the web yet.
> 
>Interesting Lou. So you think that me talking to WTVD represents some 
>sort of consultancy for them, huh? Well, let's then take a look at your 
>job of controlling the people around you - a task which is *actually* in 
>your job description.
> 
>You had one of your operators slime his way into a Daniels lab yesterday 
>and really make an ass out of himself. Now, many of your people 
>(following your lead) do that all the time, but this one caused some real 
>damage.
> 
>It seems that Lawrence Wobker barged into the lab and announced that he 
>needed to use a machine. Not quite lab etiquette, but presumably within 
>his rights. Someone stated that he was about to get off (and indeed did 
>do so within about three minutes) but that wasn't good enough for Wobker 
>the Human Wombat. No, he walked to a machine where someone was logged in 
>but was not sitting directly in front of. Problem for Wobker was that the 
>woman who *was* using the machine was consulting with the person **Next** 
>to her at the time, so that she was literally right there though not 
>physically in front of the screen at that exact second.
> 
>She did, though, intervene and inform Wobker that she was using the 
>machine. In fact, she had been using that machine since 1 AM (12 hours at 
>that point) to run a simulation. She was within a half hour of 
>completion. Wobker apparently took offense to the fact that the woman was 
>using a screen saver as the process ran. With the screen saver on and the 
>fact that she was not welded to the keyboard, and after finding out the 
>circumstances under which the machine was being used, this prick gets on 
>another machine (the one voluntarily given up earlier) and sends a zypher 
>to Mike. Now Mike at the time was the de facto operator over that lab.
> 
>Wobker informs Mike that there was a machine unattended and requested 
>authorization to re-boot. Mike, not having any idea of any of the 
>conversation taking place, and assuming that a CSC operator (even in an 
EC 
>lab) would know the rules, tells Wobker that it is OK to re-boot.
> 
>Wobker then walks back over to the woman's machine and re-boots it. 
>Unfortunately, he re-booted the wrong machine. The one he *did* re-boot 
>was in use by a guy running Cadence (the purpose of that lab) who at that 
>very instant had gone about three machines over to talk to someone else 
>doing the same thing. His program had also been running for hours and was 
>about finished.
> 
>Well, this guy realized that his machine had just been re-booted and 
>confronted Wobker. Wobker apparently couldn't care less and proceeded to 
>re-boot the woman's machine as well even though at that moment she *was* 
>physically at her workstation as opposed to the one next to it.
> 
>Wobker, having ruined two people's day and functioning in the capacity of 
>an operator (he announced himself as such initially) turned and walked 
>out of the room.
> 
>Now Lou, I've had personal experience with Sanjay and *know* that he is 
>an asshole, but this is another one of your little creatures that doesn't 
>know his place in the universe. How many more of these ignorant 
>wankstains do you have working under you? and how many more problems will 
>they cause before someone realizes that the source of the problems can be 
>traced back to the Head Wankstain himself?
> 
>Steve Crisp
> 
>-- 
>///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
>  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
> (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
>///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Yeah, Yeah, Fight, Fight, beat his ass, Yeah Yeah



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
Rodney W. Hill, II (H-dog), NCSU Computer Engineering
My pothole on the information superhighway--->
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rwhill/www/
To talk with me (unix)-> talk rwhill@robertpack.rh.ncsu.edu
"Great spirits have always encountered strong oppositions
from medicore minds"  --Albert Einstein
78-75, The PACK rules.


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu (Joshua Dwayne Ramos)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:37:51 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Case in point here (and I'm not meaning to knock you specifically Kevin - 
: you just happen to be handy.) when one asks the average OP or consultant 
: a question about informational resources this is typical of the answer 
: one gets. Now, someone with a lot of experience using computers would 
: know exactly what was meant, but someone without remains clueless. And if 
: that clueless person asks for clarification the OP usually has little to 
: add that the questioner can understand.
: 

I'm sorry, but I must differ. Every question -I- have -ever- asked an op,
in Leazar mostly, has been answered in very plain, simple, understandable
language. I -do- have good computer experience, but the ops have been 
very down to earth, language wise, and answered me in easy to follow terms.

Don't base an argument on single cases, or just what's happened to you,
ask others. And finally, have you ever thought about therapy for your 
feelings of victimization? Try it, it -may- work. 

ops   1
Crisp 0
-- 
           Josh Ramos               | http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jdramos/html
       jdramos@eos.ncsu.edu         | INSERT FUNNY OR AMAZING TEXT HERE
            Frequent ncsu.* reader and poster to ncsu.soc

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:41:26 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4hfkhn$kn9@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Joshua Dwayne Ramos (jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I'm sorry, but I must differ. Every question -I- have -ever- asked an op,
: in Leazar mostly, has been answered in very plain, simple, understandable
: language. I -do- have good computer experience, but the ops have been 
: very down to earth, language wise, and answered me in easy to follow terms.
: 
: Don't base an argument on single cases, or just what's happened to you,
: ask others. And finally, have you ever thought about therapy for your 
: feelings of victimization? Try it, it -may- work. 
: 
: ops   1
: Crisp 0

Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
the world revolves around their discipline alone.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.www,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general
Date: 4 Mar 1996 20:42:05 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4hfkit$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfk3i$jva@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Please note that my comments are designed to be helpful, as they are the
general norm for what is expected and considerate on USENET. 


In ncsu.general, Rodney W. Hill, II (rwhill@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Yeah, Yeah, Fight, Fight, beat his ass, Yeah Yeah

Rodney, I know you personally (albeit just barely), so I'll be
compassionate in my commentary on your post: 

1. Do not quote entire previous posts in your followup.  Quote only those 
portions relevant to your commentary.

2. Almost never quote another person's .sig in your followup, unless, of
course, you are commenting on that .sig (i.e. alt.fan.warlord). 

3. Hail Smerp.

4. Have a very very very very very very very very very very very very 
very very very very very very very very very very very very very very 
very very very very very very very very very very very very very very 
very very very very very very very very very very very very very very 
very very very very very very very very very very very very nice day.


                                       
                                               --Gurk


-- 
                         * + & @ # $ % $ # @ + *  
          "Help, Jane! Stop this crazy thing!" -- George Jetson
                  The BOB(c). asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu.
                         * + & @ # $ % $ # @ + *  

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu (Joshua Dwayne Ramos)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:04:55 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4hfltn$kv5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkhn$kn9@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
: unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
: the world revolves around their discipline alone.
: 

No, I'm an engineer, period. I have an engineering job, and do engineering
work. At any rate, you whined about the mythical complexity of answers
of ops, to which i gave you a case, me, where the ops have been very good
about using easy to understand language. If you're making a proof, -you-
have to have solid facts, and if you generalize, it's dangerous. It only
takes -one- case of something going against your theory to make it false.

-- 
           Josh Ramos               | http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jdramos/html
       jdramos@eos.ncsu.edu         | INSERT FUNNY OR AMAZING TEXT HERE

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu (Joshua Dwayne Ramos)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:08:19 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4hfm43$l04@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkhn$kn9@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
: unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
                               ^
: the world revolves around their discipline alone.
: 
: Steve Crisp

By the way, something I forgot to mention earlier, you missed a question
mark. Not all engineering people are really one-sided. 
-- 
           Josh Ramos               | http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jdramos/html
       jdramos@eos.ncsu.edu         | INSERT FUNNY OR AMAZING TEXT HERE

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko
From: wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu (Rally Vincent)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:18:42 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4hfmni$lav@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bob.catt.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2587 ncsu.eos:740 ncsu.unity:580

In article <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick <asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>In ncsu.general, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Case in point here (and I'm not meaning to knock you specifically Kevin - 
>: you just happen to be handy.) when one asks the average OP or consultant 
>: a question about informational resources this is typical of the answer 
>: one gets. Now, someone with a lot of experience using computers would 
>: know exactly what was meant, but someone without remains clueless. And if 
>: that clueless person asks for clarification the OP usually has little to 
>: add that the questioner can understand.
>
>This is why every computer-related department on campus should hire -me-. 
>I mean that quite seriously, and also in a more general sense (i.e. people
>-like- me).  Now, before you (the general "you," not "You, Crisp") think

People like you?  Just what we need...

>that Gurk is going off on another of his egotistical trips, read the next
>paragraph. 
>
>Someone in a lab is having a problem with something.  90% of the time
>(especially in Unity labs), I am equipped with the knowledge to fix that

We don't need to hear about your "equipment."

>person's problem.  There's one big difference between me and your average
>moderately-knowledgeable computer jerk out there, though:  I speak common
>English.  In other words, I communicate effectively the information the

Whatever.  This is coming from "Gurk" who would respond with
"Me Gurk, me fix computer."   Good with English my ass, false. :)

>user needs in a mode he/she/it can understand, and will be able to use in
>the future so as to solve his/her/its problems. 
>
>No, this isn't an attempt to put myself on a pedestal.  It's to illustrate

Whatever.  You never miss the opportunity to toot your own horn or
some other body part.

>Steve's point about CSC and ENG types who aren't equipped to effectively

Yeah, we don't have the same "equipment" as you.

>-help- the users who have honest questions.  Generally, a user simply
>needs something explained in straightforward language, not an intense
>geeking out, getting into extreme technical detail with lots of technical
>terminology.  It -is- possible for users to understand without getting
>bogged down in jargon, and that doesn't advocate keeping them in the dark
>like mindless sheep.  It simply means bringing it to their level, a
>foundation from which they can work their way up. 
>
>This is why the first question I ask is, "How familiar are you with Unix?"
>
>The second question I then ask is, "Would you like me to just fix it, or
>explain to you how to fix it?"
>
>The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
>in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
>from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
>know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 

I used to hang out in the Zoo (aka Sullivan 103 lab) last year since
I lived in Lee.  People would see my nifty window manager and cool
background picture of (insert fictional but real female character here)
and would think I actually knew what I was doing...  They'd ask
me questions and I'd be nice and answer it.  After a while though
it gets annoying and you wonder why people can't just RTFM so I
started running mwm and that one xterm to "hide" myself.  Well
you can debate all you want about whether people should have to
RTFM or not, but it gets annoying after the millionth time to
explain to someone that the print queue has 10 jobs in it so
you're going to have to wait.

Ravi


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko
From: wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu (Rally Vincent)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:20:36 GMT
Organization: Bob, the machine o' death.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4hfmr4$ldo@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bob.catt.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2588 ncsu.eos:741 ncsu.unity:581

In article <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Bob Johnson <bobj@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
>: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
>: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
>: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 
>: 
>: 
>: 
>
>I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *

I thought his standard reply was rm -fr ~ ?  Possilbly worse.

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.soc
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.soc
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:22:56 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4hfmvg$jph@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfmni$lav@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: n00031-104hlb.unity.ncsu.edu
X-URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~asdamick/www/
X-Grep-Fodder: kibo bob fnord joel furr eris turkey larry wall cabal
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2589 ncsu.eos:742 ncsu.unity:582 ncsu.soc:846

In ncsu.general, Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: I used to hang out in the Zoo (aka Sullivan 103 lab) last year since
: I lived in Lee.  People would see my nifty window manager and cool
: background picture of (insert fictional but real female character here)
: and would think I actually knew what I was doing...  They'd ask
: me questions and I'd be nice and answer it.  After a while though
: it gets annoying and you wonder why people can't just RTFM so I
: started running mwm and that one xterm to "hide" myself.  Well
: you can debate all you want about whether people should have to
: RTFM or not, but it gets annoying after the millionth time to
: explain to someone that the print queue has 10 jobs in it so
: you're going to have to wait.

...and THIS, meine freunde, is the Prime Reason why Ravi Does Not Date.


Thank you, thank you, and good night.

[This Brilliant Psychological Evaluation has been brought to you by the
Science of Smerpology and the Literary Movement of Mug Rabble Blind. 
Thanks, folks, and, please, get help somewhere.]


                                          --Gurk

-- 
Due to recent cutbacks, the light           Andrew S. Damick
at the end of the tunnel has been    Independent Reality Contractor 
turned off until further notice.   http://www4.ncsu.edu/~asdamick/www

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko
From: wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu (Rally Vincent)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:32:46 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4hfnhu$l0r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bob.catt.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2590 ncsu.eos:743 ncsu.unity:583

In article <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Ravi K. Swamy (rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>: Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>: >Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: >: 
>: >: Exactly. Let the students determine just how much machine they want and 
>: >: need. Then provide student loans to purchase them if the student needs it.
>: >: 
>: >
>: >We have CSC Seniors who don't know how to figure out options to give
>: >to a compiler (seriously), it's too much to expect Joe Freshman in
>: >Chemistry to figure out just how much computer he (in reality) needs.
>: >
>: >(Oh, and be careful when referring to Amiga 3000s, Garvin. Mine
>: >is running NetBSD right now, and I am thinking about installing SVR4
>: >later. SVR4/Amiga was one of the first SVR4s to hit the market.)
>: 
>: I thought installing System V would be blasphemous to someone who
>: preaches *BSD as much as you? :)
>: 
>
>Amix has it's neat points. For example: If you man something that has
>multiple man pages, like time(1) and time(2), it brings up a listing
>of the multiple pages, and asks you which ones you want to see. It
>can also show all of the matching pages one after the other.

Surely you could write a short wrapper script around nroff to do
this for you?

>Sounds cool to me. It also has a permuted index, in case you want to
>see, for example, the "signaling" functions. Neat. 

I don't think I understand.  It shows you the signature of the signal
functions?

>The idea being to find the cool little things in Amix and rewrite
>them for NetBSD.

Hey, just get the source to Amix and rip it out.  I'm sure the USL
lawyers won't mind.

>Course, to install Amix and NetBSD and AmigaDOS on one machine requires
>writing a boot manager that doesn't require AmigaDOS. I can do that,
>just give me time. The NetBSD can have boot blocks itself, instead of
>requiring an AmigaDOS loadbsd program. I know how to do this, I just
>have a time problem. 
>
>SVR4 has some neat features. AIX has lots and lots of neat features.

Yeah, like the ability to make otherwise intelligent people scream AIX!

AIX!

>The idea is to take the cool ones and integrate them into *BSD, and
>leave the piss-poor ideas in Vland. 

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:42:49 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4hfo4p$l32@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2591 ncsu.eos:744 ncsu.unity:584


Hey Andy, you wanna parse out my statement so this pin-head can make some 
legitimate sense of it?

Steve Crisp

Joshua Dwayne Ramos (jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: : 
: : Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
: : unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
: : the world revolves around their discipline alone.
: : 
: 
: No, I'm an engineer, period. I have an engineering job, and do engineering
: work. At any rate, you whined about the mythical complexity of answers
: of ops, to which i gave you a case, me, where the ops have been very good
: about using easy to understand language. If you're making a proof, -you-
: have to have solid facts, and if you generalize, it's dangerous. It only
: takes -one- case of something going against your theory to make it false.
: 
: -- 
:            Josh Ramos               | http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jdramos/html
:        jdramos@eos.ncsu.edu         | INSERT FUNNY OR AMAZING TEXT HERE

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!wakko
From: wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu (Rally Vincent)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:43:01 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4hfo55$ld3@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdso7$bdd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfe0l$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bob.catt.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2592 ncsu.eos:745 ncsu.unity:585

In article <4hfe0l$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Rally Vincent (wakko@bob.catt.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4hdn82$9r8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>: Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>: >Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: >
>: >: I like the idea. But the rate at which technology advances is going to make
>: >: that 604 or 486 obsolete by the time the student brings it back, so that the
>: >: entry-level processors are going to be almost useless within the time the
>: >: student has it....
>: >
>: >To an extent, you have a point, but I think you overestimate the needs of 
>: >most users based on what you (probably) need. For someone who needs a 
>: 
>: I always laugh at the idiots "keeping up with the Jones's" just
>: for the sake of "keeping up" and to be able to claim that their's
>: is bigger.  <insert sexual reference from Andy here>
>: 
>
>You can always go the route I go. "Oh yeah, well my computer weighs more
>than you! And it's slower than every other computer on the floor!"

Well actually its kind of true.  My Pentium 90 w/ 17" monitor does
weigh more than his desktop P5-150 and 15" monitor.

>: When my neighbor got a Pentium 150 to run Quicken on, well I just had to laugh.
>
>I got bored on day and wrote a checkbook balancing program with lex and yacc.

Ugh.  I kind of wrote one with awk and tcl but it was rather silly.

>On a 25Mhz '030 with 14mb of RAM and less than 500mb of drive. Scary 
>things happen when you give me old, shitty, out of date hardware. I
>can run a 115k ISDN line with a 386/33.

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!garvin
From: garvin@unity.ncsu.edu (Michael Arthur Garvin)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:45:12 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4hfo98$jn5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager.eos.ncsu.edu
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2593 ncsu.eos:746 ncsu.unity:586

Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>
>(Oh, and be careful when referring to Amiga 3000s, Garvin. Mine
>is running NetBSD right now, and I am thinking about installing SVR4
>later. SVR4/Amiga was one of the first SVR4s to hit the market.)
>

	Actually, I wasn't slamming them (much - Commodore always had a follow-
though problem, and their Unix entry was no exception).  My 1200 isn't running
Unix since I haven't shelled out for the '030 with MMU, but my 2000/GVP I had
five years ago was until it self-destructed.  Neither 1000 did, of course...

 - Proud Owner of _Original_ AmigaDOS/Kickstart 1.0 Floppies

-- 
| Michael Garvin    \    North Carolina State University College of Engineering
| Systems Programmer \   Information Technology & Engineering Computer Services
| garvin@eos.ncsu.edu \  5 Page Hall, Box 7901 NCSU Campus,  Raleigh,  NC 27695
| (919) 515-2458       \                  http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/staff/garvin/

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Supersedes: <4hfoi3$lfe@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:49:55 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4hfoqg$lfe@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfo4p$l32@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: n00031-104hlb.unity.ncsu.edu
X-URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~asdamick/www/
X-Grep-Fodder: kibo bob fnord joel furr eris turkey larry wall cabal
X-Commentary-To-NCSU.SOC: The FAQ Committee's needs are NickSuSock needs.
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2595 ncsu.eos:748 ncsu.unity:588 ncsu.humanities:84

In ncsu.general, Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Hey Andy, you wanna parse out my statement so this pin-head can make some 
: legitimate sense of it?

Hi, Pinhead Steve!  Pinhead Gurk make sense for Pinhead RAY-moose!  

(Hi, Pinhead RAY-moose!)


: : : Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
: : : unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
: : : the world revolves around their discipline alone.

Pinhead Steve mean:  CHASS majors and similar people have problem
understanding bigtime jargon of Engineer and CSC.  Engineer and CSC no
make effort to translate into English for CHASS and similar.  CHASS make
simple question, need simple answer...bigtime directness and relevance to
problem.  When Engineer ask question of Engineer, is bigtime different. 
Engineer not understand plight of CHASS. 

Is like when Engineer not get Shakespeare.  CHASS say Shakespeare certain
thing, using bigtime CHASS jargon, Engineer not get it. 

(...excepting my brother.  He's a bloody Chemical Engineer, for cryin' out
loud, and he adores Shakespeare with a passion, and, was in fact, one of
the most involved in his ENG209 class (Bob Lane!).  Of course, tendency
for massive amounts of discussion may be a damick.trait, but he's also no 
slouch when it comes to the Engineering schtuff.  Maybe my clan is just 
multi-talented.  *grin*)


                                              
                                             --Gurk hope this helps!

-- 
==========a==l==t==.==f==a==n==.==t==h==e==-==b==o==b==========          
== A n d r e w  S .  D a m i c k  --  W A R R I O R  P O E T ==
======== http://www4.ncsu.edu/~asdamick/www/   YAWP!!! ========
============d==a==r==k===w==i==n==d==s===c==a==m==e============              


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: jdramos@unity.ncsu.edu (Joshua Dwayne Ramos)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 22:05:45 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4hfpfp$lsl@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfo4p$l32@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfoqg$lfe@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c00571-1403br.eos.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2596 ncsu.eos:749 ncsu.unity:589 ncsu.humanities:85

Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: : Hey Andy, you wanna parse out my statement so this pin-head can make some 
: : legitimate sense of it?
:
Gee, I thought this was college, not 4th grade. Name calling makes you 
-really- cool.

: (Hi, Pinhead RAY-moose!)
:
Hello.

: Pinhead Steve mean:  CHASS majors and similar people have problem
: understanding bigtime jargon of Engineer and CSC.  Engineer and CSC no
: make effort to translate into English for CHASS and similar.  CHASS make
: simple question, need simple answer...bigtime directness and relevance to
: problem.  When Engineer ask question of Engineer, is bigtime different. 
: Engineer not understand plight of CHASS. 
: 
:                                              --Gurk hope this helps!

It does. It's a whole lot easier to understand someone when they're not
going nuts. Thanks Gurk, it help much.
-- 
           Josh Ramos               | http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jdramos/html
       jdramos@eos.ncsu.edu         | INSERT FUNNY OR AMAZING TEXT HERE
                              Now Jargon-Free!

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu (Nalin Dahyabhai)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 00:07:32 GMT
Organization: N.C. State University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4hg0k4$ljs@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfo4p$l32@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfoqg$lfe@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2598 ncsu.eos:750 ncsu.unity:590 ncsu.humanities:86

On 4 Mar 1996 21:49:55 GMT, Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Pinhead Steve mean:  CHASS majors and similar people have problem
: understanding bigtime jargon of Engineer and CSC.  Engineer and CSC no
: make effort to translate into English for CHASS and similar.  CHASS make
: simple question, need simple answer...bigtime directness and relevance to
: problem.  When Engineer ask question of Engineer, is bigtime different. 
: Engineer not understand plight of CHASS. 

You know, (and I don't direct this at any one person), I'm getting a little
tired of people knocking people in the College of Engineering for being
technical-minded and having difficulty communicating clearly with others.
The first is not a flaw; it's why they're in the COE in the first place. And
I'll be one of the first to admit that the second IS a problem; it's why we
also take English and foreign languages and humanities and social science
courses. To some extent, that's also why CHASS majors take math and computer
science: we're supposed to be well-rounded by the time we get out of here.

Right?

-- 
Nalin Dahyabhai nalin@argus.rh.ncsu.edu
  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nsdahya1/www/


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:14 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Date: 5 Mar 1996 01:05:28 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4hg40o$n6f@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2599 ncsu.eos:752 ncsu.unity:592 ncsu.humanities:87

Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: You know, (and I don't direct this at any one person), I'm getting a little
: tired of people knocking people in the College of Engineering for being
: technical-minded and having difficulty communicating clearly with others.
: The first is not a flaw; it's why they're in the COE in the first place. And
: I'll be one of the first to admit that the second IS a problem; it's why we
: also take English and foreign languages and humanities and social science
: courses. To some extent, that's also why CHASS majors take math and computer
: science: we're supposed to be well-rounded by the time we get out of here.

The problem lies in intent versus reality. English 111 and 112 have no 
business being taught at this university to begin with. Every entering 
student should have the full foundation for everything taught in those 
courses prior to graduating high school. The social science courses for 
the most part are taught from the standpoint of logical positivism and 
hence are little different that those offered in the sciences. If I'm not 
mistaken, engineering majors need only take two history courses - both 
of which can have a stronger component of science that historiography as 
they are taught. And I will continue to submit that in the modern age of 
English as a primary language of the scientific world, taking a foreign 
language is an utter waste of time and energy. In ten years, show me more 
than a handful of currently graduating students who do not go on to for 
doctorate and who still have a working command of any foreign language 
and I will be surprised.

On the other hand...CHASS majors need take only two math courses - both 
of which can be material that should have been mastered in the tenth 
grade. Then they need to take three science courses (two of them lab 
oriented) which gives absolutely no working knowledge of science as an 
epistemological paradigm; the kids are learning nothing more than the 
ability to memorize and regurgitate for a single semester. 

The bottom line is that we are churning out droves of (either) glorified 
technicians or non-empirical humanists. There is currently no common 
ground. There is only one program of which I am familiar that addresses the 
issue of "The Renaissance Education" to its fullest and that is the 
Franklin Scholars Program. 

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes
From: cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 03:04:59 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4hgb0r$nra@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Bob Johnson <bobj@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
>: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
>: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
>: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 
>: 
>: 
>: 
>
>I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *
You're confusing Gurk with me.  And the answer is '/bin/rm -rf ~/.'

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes
From: cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 03:11:23 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <4hgbcr$oeb@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Maybe I've just become cynical, but.
I believe that the biggest problem here is the average person's inability
to read much of anything to the point of comprehension.
Unfortunately people seem to want information dished out on
a preprocessed silver platter.
(Or is it preprocessed information?)

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes
From: cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 03:17:42 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4hgbom$e1l@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4heua4$g7r@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hf1bn$bji@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfe9f$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hfe9f$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Kevin P. Neal <kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>
>I use a 3/260 and I quite like it. Very stable. I just bumped mine up
>to 24mb of RAM. It helps to use 3 1/2" drives in it as well (I do
>have a power bill to pay, you know).
I intend to do that with the 4/260, but I need to get a
netbsd kernel that boots first... then I can consider setting up 
a little disk to replace the 6 big disks.
Either that or get a SunOS tape from somewhere.  Is sun still
giving those away?

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cddukes
From: cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 03:32:13 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4hgcjt$oui@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfo4p$l32@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfoqg$lfe@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hg0k4$ljs@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Well rounded students from a public University in the US?
What have you been smoking, and when will you be sending a 10lb 
bag my way?  I've spent the past year trying to come up with
uses for freshly graduated CSC students other than a cheap
protein supplement, and finding things to do with management
graduates other than spay and neuter them.

I do not claim to be well rounded, but it scares me when so
much of the graduated masses are less rounded than I.

It disgusts me with how much peole can do, but they refuse
to believe they can do it or even try.

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu!heather Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu!heather
From: heather@sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu (Heather A. Philp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 03:40:09 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4hgd2p$oq3@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: The bottom line is that we are churning out droves of (either) glorified 
: technicians or non-empirical humanists. There is currently no common 
: ground. There is only one program of which I am familiar that addresses the 
: issue of "The Renaissance Education" to its fullest and that is the 
: Franklin Scholars Program. 

Actually, Steve, there are three programs here at NCSU which address the
issue of "The Renaissance Education."  Both the Whitney and Jefferson
Scholar's programs combine a science major and a CHASS major;  one
involves Textiles and the other Ag and Life Sciences.  (I'm not sure which
is which, and if I specify here, I'm sure to screw it up :)

I'm not sure how the other two programs are doing, but each year every
Franklin Scholars class gets smaller and smaller.  I hate to see it
happen, but it does.     

	-Heather 

--
Heather Philp 		 		       heather@sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu  
	  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~haphilp/www/home.html
"Home is the place where, when you have to go there, 
They have to take you in."   -Robert Frost, "The Death of the Hired Man"

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Date: 5 Mar 1996 04:09:52 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4hgeqg$p1v@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h
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Heather A. Philp (heather@sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Actually, Steve, there are three programs here at NCSU which address the
: issue of "The Renaissance Education."  Both the Whitney and Jefferson
: Scholar's programs combine a science major and a CHASS major;  one
: involves Textiles and the other Ag and Life Sciences.  (I'm not sure which
: is which, and if I specify here, I'm sure to screw it up :)

Indeed, I beg the apologies of those in all three programs for forgetting 
the Whitneys and the Jeffersons. I should have known better on this one 
since there are two Jefferson Scholars in the class which I TA.

I've had the pleasure of teaching students from all three programs and 
they are by far the most well-rounded students at this university. I do get 
concerned, though. These folks are so brilliant that I fear some will get 
bored considering the academic hoops they must jump through to get out of here.

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!dasimmon Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!dasimmon
From: dasimmon@unity.ncsu.edu (Donald Andrew Simmons)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 04:27:36 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4hgfro$p7t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hgbcr$oeb@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hgbcr$oeb@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Christopher D Dukes <cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Maybe I've just become cynical, but.
>I believe that the biggest problem here is the average person's inability
>to read much of anything to the point of comprehension.
>Unfortunately people seem to want information dished out on
>a preprocessed silver platter.
>(Or is it preprocessed information?)

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand a single word of that.  Could you like, 
post just a summary of what you wanted to say?

:)

--Dazz

--
"Take this card.  Call if you have danger or boredom.  Do NOT call the zip
 code." 		--The Flaming Carrot


From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cc06du.unity.ncsu.edu!wjcuthre Tue Mar  5 13:05:15 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cc06du.unity.ncsu.edu!wjcuthre
From: wjcuthre@unity.ncsu.edu (William Jason Cuthrell)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 04:45:00 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4hggsc$nq7@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Steven J. Crisp (sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: I've had the pleasure of teaching students from all three programs and 
: they are by far the most well-rounded students at this university. I do get 
: concerned, though. These folks are so brilliant that I fear some will get 
: bored considering the academic hoops they must jump through to get out of here.

If they get bored there is always Cal Tech or embellishment of one's 
social life...  either one will solve that boredom.

--
  /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
 /  Jay Cuthrell [Q-thrul] wjcuthre@eos.ncsu.edu  \
/ http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/w/wjcuthre/www/   \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi K. Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 05:26:00 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <4hgj98$plh@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h <4hg40o$n6f@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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In article <4hg40o$n6f@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Steven J. Crisp <sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Nalin Dahyabhai (nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: You know, (and I don't direct this at any one person), I'm getting a little
>: tired of people knocking people in the College of Engineering for being
>: technical-minded and having difficulty communicating clearly with others.
>: The first is not a flaw; it's why they're in the COE in the first place. And
>: I'll be one of the first to admit that the second IS a problem; it's why we
>: also take English and foreign languages and humanities and social science
>: courses. To some extent, that's also why CHASS majors take math and computer
>: science: we're supposed to be well-rounded by the time we get out of here.
>
>The problem lies in intent versus reality. English 111 and 112 have no 

Well at least most people I know took 112H and skipped 111.  I guess
that's a good thing.

>business being taught at this university to begin with. Every entering 
>student should have the full foundation for everything taught in those 
>courses prior to graduating high school. The social science courses for 
>the most part are taught from the standpoint of logical positivism and 
>hence are little different that those offered in the sciences. If I'm not 
>mistaken, engineering majors need only take two history courses - both 
>of which can have a stronger component of science that historiography as 
>they are taught. And I will continue to submit that in the modern age of 

I'm pretty sure engineers need 18 hours of humanties, 6 of which can
be histories, and then some stuff like economics, psychology, and some
other stuff I've yet to take.

>English as a primary language of the scientific world, taking a foreign 
>language is an utter waste of time and energy. In ten years, show me more 
>than a handful of currently graduating students who do not go on to for 
>doctorate and who still have a working command of any foreign language 
>and I will be surprised.

Steve, I took two years of French (ending in spring 92) and can't remember
a lick.  I did find it to be an utter waste of time and energy but
I learned one very important lesson.  For some stupid reason I used
to think people who couldn't speak English well were dumb even though
they can speak 6 other languages.  I already pretty much fluently
understand I second language but I couldn't learn French to save my life.
The class at least taught me to have some respect for other people.

That's the argument that my teacher gave me when I told her to go blow
a sheep instead of teaching French to people like me who don't want to learn it.

>On the other hand...CHASS majors need take only two math courses - both 
>of which can be material that should have been mastered in the tenth 
>grade. Then they need to take three science courses (two of them lab 

Heck, probably stuff that Dr. Kolena would call third grade calculus.

>oriented) which gives absolutely no working knowledge of science as an 
>epistemological paradigm; the kids are learning nothing more than the 
>ability to memorize and regurgitate for a single semester. 

Regurgitation...  Important if you're a bird parent type thing.

>The bottom line is that we are churning out droves of (either) glorified 
>technicians or non-empirical humanists. There is currently no common 

Is this a good or bad thing or a we don't really care thing?

>ground. There is only one program of which I am familiar that addresses the 
>issue of "The Renaissance Education" to its fullest and that is the 
>Franklin Scholars Program. 

Ravi

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: bjbisset@unity.ncsu.edu (Billy Joe Bissette)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Date: 5 Mar 1996 05:54:29 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4hgkul$ou8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h <4hg40o$n6f@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hgj98$plh@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Ravi K. Swamy (rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Well at least most people I know took 112H and skipped 111.  I guess
: that's a good thing.

Eng112H was a joke also...  6 major assignments in a semester?  Big
deal when they are graded at such a low expectation level.  I breezed
112H with less effort than I would spend on one high school paper.
My ENG112H "Catch-22" research paper took less than eight hours to
fully research and write.  In high school, I put full days into an
Animal Farm paper, and got a B because I didn't fully present my
topic in the 20 pages... (I forgot to tell what countries/people
the sheep and the bird represented)
 Heck, ENG112H was along the lines of my high school's remedial
English classes (the AG class got to spend a day a week helping to
tutor them, so I know)
 
: I'm pretty sure engineers need 18 hours of humanties, 6 of which can
: be histories, and then some stuff like economics, psychology, and some
: other stuff I've yet to take.

I sidestepped the history by taking MDS classes instead.  MDS301 is
easier than a history class, more interesting, and heck, its more
useful...
 
: >English as a primary language of the scientific world, taking a foreign 
: >language is an utter waste of time and energy. In ten years, show me more 
: >than a handful of currently graduating students who do not go on to for 
: >doctorate and who still have a working command of any foreign language 
: >and I will be surprised.
: 
: Steve, I took two years of French (ending in spring 92) and can't remember
: a lick.  I did find it to be an utter waste of time and energy but
: I learned one very important lesson.  For some stupid reason I used
: to think people who couldn't speak English well were dumb even though
: they can speak 6 other languages.  I already pretty much fluently
: understand I second language but I couldn't learn French to save my life.
: The class at least taught me to have some respect for other people.
: 
: That's the argument that my teacher gave me when I told her to go blow
: a sheep instead of teaching French to people like me who don't want to learn it.

 Well, aren't foreign languages required now?  I took two years of
Spanish in high school, a language which can get practice in North Carolina.
I remember only two words...
 I got here took a few years of Japanese outta boredom...  I stopped at
302 cause I didn't have the MASSIVE amount of time outside of class to
keep up.  I wouldn't really say I have a working command of the language.
Maybe if I were to spend six months in Japan now....

: >On the other hand...CHASS majors need take only two math courses - both 
: >of which can be material that should have been mastered in the tenth 
: >grade. Then they need to take three science courses (two of them lab 
: 
: Heck, probably stuff that Dr. Kolena would call third grade calculus.

Heck, 141 is covered in many high schools...
 
: >oriented) which gives absolutely no working knowledge of science as an 
: >epistemological paradigm; the kids are learning nothing more than the 
: >ability to memorize and regurgitate for a single semester. 
: 
: Regurgitation...  Important if you're a bird parent type thing.

 Highly useful for moving up the corporate ladder.  And people think
Yes-man is easy....  It takes years of college...
 
: >The bottom line is that we are churning out droves of (either) glorified 
: >technicians or non-empirical humanists. There is currently no common 
: 
: Is this a good or bad thing or a we don't really care thing?

Its a bad thing.  The sheer lack of knowledge outside of engineering
that many engineers have is only comparible to the lack of technical
knowledge that the other side lacks.  Its actually scary, because
those areas ARE useful.

 Instead, engineers invent new languages because of the flaws in present
ones...  But it is as much their own failure in the skills of the
language as the language itself...
 Physics students think that because it works in theory, it will work in
practice.  Heck, I just love the physics deal that if it doesn't fit,
ignore it...  No wonder they think it should work in practice...
 Engineers with no appreciable knowledge of the real economics of a
project.
 Economics people with no appreciable knowledge of reality.

 And Psych majors are a joke either way...  Regurgitate the teacher's
theory to get an A.  Complain and fail.  The major that has a class
which argues why the field should exist, and the argument they give
is flawed...  But I wanted to pass, so I didn't complain.  I'd already
lost several points for disagreeing with some theories in that class.

-- 
Billy J. Bissette

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu!heather Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu!heather
From: heather@sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu (Heather A. Philp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 07:21:54 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4hgq2i$qjh@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4h <4hg40o$n6f@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hgj98$plh@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hgkul$ou8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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Billy Joe Bissette (bjbisset@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Eng112H was a joke also...  6 major assignments in a semester?  Big
: deal when they are graded at such a low expectation level.  I breezed
: 112H with less effort than I would spend on one high school paper.
: My ENG112H "Catch-22" research paper took less than eight hours to
: fully research and write.  In high school, I put full days into an
: Animal Farm paper, and got a B because I didn't fully present my
: topic in the 20 pages... (I forgot to tell what countries/people
: the sheep and the bird represented)
:  Heck, ENG112H was along the lines of my high school's remedial
: English classes (the AG class got to spend a day a week helping to
: tutor them, so I know)

Depends on which section you take.  The Franklin Scholars section that I
took was actually rather interesting, and it was the only class I've
yet had use the library for, even though I've taken two Lit. classes
beyond that.

: : >English as a primary language of the scientific world, taking a foreign 
: : >language is an utter waste of time and energy. In ten years, show me more 
: : >than a handful of currently graduating students who do not go on to for 
: : >doctorate and who still have a working command of any foreign language 
: : >and I will be surprised.

It's still ludicrous to think that English will be the only language
necessary for anyone in ten years.  Call me a pessimist, but things
happen. 

:  Well, aren't foreign languages required now?  I took two years of
: Spanish in high school, a language which can get practice in North Carolina.
: I remember only two words...
:  I got here took a few years of Japanese outta boredom...  I stopped at
: 302 cause I didn't have the MASSIVE amount of time outside of class to
: keep up.  I wouldn't really say I have a working command of the language.
: Maybe if I were to spend six months in Japan now....

I only wish I had enough time to learn Japanese while I'm here...I'm fairly
fluent in spoken French, and I can read it well, but truth be told my
grammar sucks.  Now I'm starting on Spanish.  Confusing myself a lot,
but the way I see it, the language and the way it's constructed tell you
a lot about the people who speak it.  I'm considering it making myself 
more well-rounded, not learning something completely useless.  Though,
I wish it hadn't taken them half a semester to get to verb conjugations.

: Heck, 141 is covered in many high schools...

And still, many people choose to take it over when they get here, rather
than trust that they learned all they needed to in high school.  Sometimes
a good move GPA-wise, but, IMO, a waste of time for those who place out
of it.

:  Instead, engineers invent new languages because of the flaws in present
: ones...  But it is as much their own failure in the skills of the
: language as the language itself...
:  Physics students think that because it works in theory, it will work in
: practice.  Heck, I just love the physics deal that if it doesn't fit,
: ignore it...  No wonder they think it should work in practice...

My favorite line that I first heard from a Biochem major here:
"With a thick enough black marker, any data will fit the curve."

:  Engineers with no appreciable knowledge of the real economics of a
: project.
:  Economics people with no appreciable knowledge of reality.

:  And Psych majors are a joke either way...  Regurgitate the teacher's
: theory to get an A.  Complain and fail.  The major that has a class
: which argues why the field should exist, and the argument they give
: is flawed...  But I wanted to pass, so I didn't complain.  I'd already
: lost several points for disagreeing with some theories in that class.

Oh, thanks for telling me that...I better go rewrite my Social Psych 
paper, then.  ;)

	-Heather

--
Heather Philp 		 		       heather@sleepy.rh.ncsu.edu  
	  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~haphilp/www/home.html
"Home is the place where, when you have to go there, 
They have to take you in."   -Robert Frost, "The Death of the Hired Man"

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news
From: dmbeeson@eos.ncsu.edu (David M. Beeson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:23:33 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <313be042.33425705@news.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkhn$kn9@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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On 4 Mar 1996 20:41:26 GMT, sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
wrote:


>
>Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
>unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
>the world revolves around their discipline alone.
>
>Steve Crisp
>
>-- 

Well, maybe not the world but certainly this University should focus
more on students in engineering than in any other curriculum.  There
are more students in the curriculum as opposed to other programs on
campus.  Also, most non-engineering students that I have encountered
use the computing resources to play games, zephyr (which borders on
being a game when used for telling friends what you did this weekend
etc...), and browsing the web (in most cases totally usless other than
allowing them to do internet searches for sex, nude, porno, etc...).
About the only legit use they get out of the machines are e-mail and
news, both of which could be done a a $500 dumb terminal rather than a
$5000 Sun workstation or a $3000 DEC workstation.  Tin and elm can
serve the same purposes.  Some students also use the computers for
word processing, which could be done much more efficeintly on the PC's
and MAC's in several labs around campus.

Engineering students could not run Spice, AutoCAD, Objectcenter, ACSL,
Maple, MatLab, etc..., on dumb terminals.  All of these programs are
very large and require massive amounts of processing.  They are
integrated with classes and the work is graded.  Many times I have had
to wait for long periods of time while people read mail, or played
zephyr so that I could get a computer to work on my class work.

Perhaps the computing powers that be should rethink Unity and put it
on VT100 terminals.  Then allocate the Suns and HP's to the students
that need them.  Sure there are non-engineering students that take
courses that use Maple or other Xwindows programs, so give them EOS
accounts while they need the programs.  Engineering students pay a
$100 computing technology fee that unity users don't pay.  Doesn't it
make since that engineering students should get something better than
unity users.  I would like to know where my $100 computing fee goes?
I would seriously like to know.  Some math gives me:

			6038  (number of students in eng)
		            x 100  (amount of computing fee)
		          --------------
		          630,800  (total funds from tech. fee)

In addition to that they receive a budget from the University and the
college of engineering.  Where does all of that money go?
 



From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news
From: dmbeeson@eos.ncsu.edu (David M. Beeson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:58:46 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
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On 4 Mar 1996 20:17:37 GMT, bobj@unity.ncsu.edu (Bob Johnson) wrote:

>Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
>: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
>: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
>: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 
>: 
>: 
>: 
>
>I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *
>
>
>-- 
>Bob Johnson      
>Unix Systems Programmer 
>bobj@unity.ncsu.edu  
>URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bobj/
>Phone (919) 515-5483

As an employee of the computing center you should think over your
posts before submitting them.  I read these news groups quite
frequently and have seen you many times insult the users.  While I
think that it is admirable that you care enough to read the newsgroups
and find out what students think is important, your job is to provide
support for us not to try and degrade use every chance you get.
Please keep in mind we are the ones paying your salary.  Is that the
way you would want to be treated by someone you were paying?

   

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!news
From: Bill Willis <Bill_Willis@ncsu.edu>
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 06:45:30 -0500
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <313C295A.2CC76304@ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu>
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Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2638 ncsu.eos:770 ncsu.unity:610

David M. Beeson wrote:
> 
> On 4 Mar 1996 20:17:37 GMT, bobj@unity.ncsu.edu (Bob Johnson) wrote:
> 
> >Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
> >: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
> >: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
> >: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
> >: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions.
> >:
> >:
> >:
> >
> >I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *
> >
> >
> >--
> >Bob Johnson
> >Unix Systems Programmer
> >bobj@unity.ncsu.edu
> >URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bobj/
> >Phone (919) 515-5483
> 
> As an employee of the computing center you should think over your
> posts before submitting them.  I read these news groups quite
> frequently and have seen you many times insult the users.  While I
> think that it is admirable that you care enough to read the newsgroups
> and find out what students think is important, your job is to provide
> support for us not to try and degrade use every chance you get.
> Please keep in mind we are the ones paying your salary.  Is that the
> way you would want to be treated by someone you were paying?
> 
> 

Well, I read newsgroups as well and I have not seen Bob insult anybody.
Bob and his cohort work very hard and they know very well what they have
to do and who they do it for. 

In the words of the immortal Foghorn Leghorn: "It's a joke. Ah say it's
a joke son"


-- 
Dr. Bill Willis                             Bill_Willis@NCSU.edu
Associate Provost for Academic Computing    (919) 515-2516
Box 7109, Room M2 Hillsborough Building
Raleigh, NC 27695-7901

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 5 Mar 1996 12:01:13 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4hhae9$sn2@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu> <313C295A.2CC76304@ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu
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In ncsu.general, Bill Willis (Bill_Willis@ncsu.edu) wrote:
: David M. Beeson wrote:

: > As an employee of the computing center you should think over your
: > posts before submitting them.  I read these news groups quite
: > frequently and have seen you many times insult the users.  While I
: > think that it is admirable that you care enough to read the newsgroups
: > and find out what students think is important, your job is to provide
: > support for us not to try and degrade use every chance you get.
: > Please keep in mind we are the ones paying your salary.  Is that the
: > way you would want to be treated by someone you were paying?

: Well, I read newsgroups as well and I have not seen Bob insult anybody.
: Bob and his cohort work very hard and they know very well what they have
: to do and who they do it for. 


Mr. BEE-son ("Son of Bee"?  Who is "Bee"?)...

NCSU.* USENET Rule #0:  Thou shalt think carefully before thou commentest 
                        on Bob "No Packets Up My Sleeve" Johnson.



                                                --Gurk

-- 
      /|/|
    /00  |    _//|       "Downloading anime is a serious academic pursuit."
   |/^^\ |   /oo |                                        -- Ravi K. Swamy
    \m_m_|   \mm_|   http://www4.ncsu.edu/~asdamick/www/ Better than anime.   

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: bobj@unity.ncsu.edu (Bob Johnson)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Date: 5 Mar 1996 12:13:28 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4hhb58$snu@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu>
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David M. Beeson (dmbeeson@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: As an employee of the computing center you should think over your
: posts before submitting them.  I read these news groups quite
: frequently and have seen you many times insult the users.  While I
: think that it is admirable that you care enough to read the newsgroups
: and find out what students think is important, your job is to provide
: support for us not to try and degrade use every chance you get.
: Please keep in mind we are the ones paying your salary.  Is that the
: way you would want to be treated by someone you were paying?
: 
:    
Huh Oh ! there's a new sheriff in town . 
I will control myself in the future.
Andy , Steve, I know how sensitive you guys are so I apologize.
;)

-- 
Bob Johnson      
Unix Systems Programmer 
bobj@unity.ncsu.edu  
URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bobj/
Phone (919) 515-5483

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general
Date: 5 Mar 1996 12:24:34 GMT
Organization: Free Muffin Central
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4hhbq2$sn2@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu> <4hhb58$snu@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu
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X-Commentary-To-NCSU.SOC: The FAQ Committee's needs are NickSuSock needs.
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In ncsu.general, Bob Johnson (bobj@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Andy , Steve, I know how sensitive you guys are so I apologize.

*sniff*

Thanks, Bob.  I was highly emotionally unstable for a while there.  I'm
sure Steve's feeling MUCH better now, too. 



                                                   --Gurk

-- 
Proud Member, NCSU.SOC FAQ Committee --------------------------
--------------- Only the Committee can save you from the Cabal.
"HEY! They're making fun of you over in ncsu.soc." -- Anonymous

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 14:41:45 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4hhjr9$tv5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfi8g$r4j@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfj51$kh5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
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X-Newsreader: mxrn 6.18-17
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2642 ncsu.eos:775 ncsu.unity:615


In article <313bf1e9.37945726@news.ncsu.edu>, dmbeeson@eos.ncsu.edu (David M. Beeson) writes:
>On 4 Mar 1996 20:17:37 GMT, bobj@unity.ncsu.edu (Bob Johnson) wrote:
>
>>Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick (asdamick@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>>: The answers to those two should dictate your communication with the user
>>: in question.  Unfortunately, they are not something I hear very frequently
>>: from people who get paid to answer questions from people who often don't
>>: know enough to ask the right kind of detailed questions. 
>>: 
>>: 
>>: 
>>
>>I seem to  remember your standard answer to questions used to be rm -rf *
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Bob Johnson      
>>Unix Systems Programmer 
>>bobj@unity.ncsu.edu  
>>URL: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bobj/
>>Phone (919) 515-5483
>
>As an employee of the computing center you should think over your
>posts before submitting them.  I read these news groups quite
>frequently and have seen you many times insult the users.  While I
>think that it is admirable that you care enough to read the newsgroups
>and find out what students think is important, your job is to provide
>support for us not to try and degrade use every chance you get.
>Please keep in mind we are the ones paying your salary.  Is that the
>way you would want to be treated by someone you were paying?

Heck, the only reason I read ncsu.* is to see witty banter from Bob. 

Ravi
--
Ravi K. Swamy                http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/
rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu         root@genom.com

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 14:53:02 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
Lines: 99
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4hhkge$tv5@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
References: <4h9s0o$tht@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4havef$22e@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hb779$2kk@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hd8gg$a5t@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hdirk$b58@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfdl2$ip1@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfgb5$jjf@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkav$kjd@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <4hfkhn$kn9@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> <313be042.33425705@news.ncsu.edu>
Reply-To: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: n00059-118dan.unity.ncsu.edu
X-Newsreader: mxrn 6.18-17
Xref: taco.cc.ncsu.edu ncsu.general:2644 ncsu.eos:776 ncsu.unity:616


In article <313be042.33425705@news.ncsu.edu>, dmbeeson@eos.ncsu.edu (David M. Beeson) writes:
>On 4 Mar 1996 20:41:26 GMT, sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Is this a problem which is indicative of those in engineering being 
>>unable to read and understand. Again, another engineer-type who thinks 
>>the world revolves around their discipline alone.
>>
>>Steve Crisp
>>
>>-- 
>
>Well, maybe not the world but certainly this University should focus
>more on students in engineering than in any other curriculum.  There
>are more students in the curriculum as opposed to other programs on
>campus.  Also, most non-engineering students that I have encountered
>use the computing resources to play games, zephyr (which borders on
>being a game when used for telling friends what you did this weekend

Or using the net to try to become famous...

>etc...), and browsing the web (in most cases totally usless other than
>allowing them to do internet searches for sex, nude, porno, etc...).

I'm glad we agree that those searches aren't totally useless.

>About the only legit use they get out of the machines are e-mail and
>news, both of which could be done a a $500 dumb terminal rather than a

You're paying $500 for a dumb terminal?  You can get those for $5.

>$5000 Sun workstation or a $3000 DEC workstation.  Tin and elm can
>serve the same purposes.  Some students also use the computers for
>word processing, which could be done much more efficeintly on the PC's
>and MAC's in several labs around campus.

Efficiency is in the eye of the beholder.  The only thing efficient
about a windows pc is it reboots rather quickly and frequently.

>Engineering students could not run Spice, AutoCAD, Objectcenter, ACSL,
>Maple, MatLab, etc..., on dumb terminals.  All of these programs are

Yeah, whatever.  I used to run spice all the time on a dumb terminal
connection to dialup[0,1].eos   It's not always necessary to plot
out every single thing.  As for Maple, I *prefer* to run it in
character mode.  When I need to integrate exp(-x^2) (Chris, I'm
still waiting on your "solution" to this one...)  I sure as heck
don't need the X version.  There are plenty of character based
text editors, debuggers, and compilers.  Not that you have to use
them, but people like Dukes probably prefer them.

>very large and require massive amounts of processing.  They are

Yeah, that 386dx33 I was running spice on sure had "massive amounts
of processing."

>integrated with classes and the work is graded.  Many times I have had
>to wait for long periods of time while people read mail, or played
>zephyr so that I could get a computer to work on my class work.

Did you ask them to leave so that you could do your work?  I take
it there was no op in this lab?

>Perhaps the computing powers that be should rethink Unity and put it
>on VT100 terminals.  Then allocate the Suns and HP's to the students

I'd rather see a bunch of $1500 PC's running Linux that can still
be used for Zmail, Netscape, and mxrn.  That's about all the Unity
people use.  Maybe Maple, but that's there too.

>that need them.  Sure there are non-engineering students that take
>courses that use Maple or other Xwindows programs, so give them EOS
>accounts while they need the programs.  Engineering students pay a

I thought they did get eos accounts for the semester when they take
that class?

>$100 computing technology fee that unity users don't pay.  Doesn't it
>make since that engineering students should get something better than
>unity users.  I would like to know where my $100 computing fee goes?
>I would seriously like to know.  Some math gives me:
>
>			6038  (number of students in eng)
>		            x 100  (amount of computing fee)
>		          --------------
>		          630,800  (total funds from tech. fee)
>
>In addition to that they receive a budget from the University and the
>college of engineering.  Where does all of that money go?

It goes to bobj's salary.

Ravi
--
Ravi K. Swamy                http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/
rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu         root@genom.com

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:02:04 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
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Bob Johnson (bobj@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: Huh Oh ! there's a new sheriff in town . 
: I will control myself in the future.
: Andy , Steve, I know how sensitive you guys are so I apologize.
: ;)

Hey, call me a fascist. Call me a racist. Call me min-informed on an 
issue. Those things I can defend against. But don't call me sensitive. My 
only recourse is to take a chain-saw and wing it around on the 
brickyard and that would not make Ralph happy.  :)

Steve Crisp

-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Steve Crisp         The "Who and When" of history are insignificant
  crisp@ncsu.edu         relative to the "How and Why." These in turn
 (Future URL here)        pale in comparison to the "Resulting In."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:05:15 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
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In article <4hgkul$ou8@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, bjbisset@unity.ncsu.edu (Billy Joe Bissette) writes:
>Ravi K. Swamy (rkswamy@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>: Well at least most people I know took 112H and skipped 111.  I guess
>: that's a good thing.
>
>Eng112H was a joke also...  6 major assignments in a semester?  Big
>deal when they are graded at such a low expectation level.  I breezed
>112H with less effort than I would spend on one high school paper.

Don't get me started on english classes at science and math...   Easily
the worst grades I've ever made after that French class of course.
And to think I thought the words "science" and "math" actually meant
something...

>My ENG112H "Catch-22" research paper took less than eight hours to
>fully research and write.  In high school, I put full days into an
>Animal Farm paper, and got a B because I didn't fully present my
>topic in the 20 pages... (I forgot to tell what countries/people
>the sheep and the bird represented)
> Heck, ENG112H was along the lines of my high school's remedial
>English classes (the AG class got to spend a day a week helping to
>tutor them, so I know)

The thing I remember most about 112H is how utterly bad the reading
material was.
 
>: I'm pretty sure engineers need 18 hours of humanties, 6 of which can
>: be histories, and then some stuff like economics, psychology, and some
>: other stuff I've yet to take.
>
>I sidestepped the history by taking MDS classes instead.  MDS301 is
>easier than a history class, more interesting, and heck, its more
>useful...

Heck, but my HI 341 class is so hard...  Well we *still* haven't had
a test, quiz, or anything else in there.  
 
>: >English as a primary language of the scientific world, taking a foreign 
>: >language is an utter waste of time and energy. In ten years, show me more 
>: >than a handful of currently graduating students who do not go on to for 
>: >doctorate and who still have a working command of any foreign language 
>: >and I will be surprised.
>: 
>: Steve, I took two years of French (ending in spring 92) and can't remember
>: a lick.  I did find it to be an utter waste of time and energy but
>: I learned one very important lesson.  For some stupid reason I used
>: to think people who couldn't speak English well were dumb even though
>: they can speak 6 other languages.  I already pretty much fluently
>: understand I second language but I couldn't learn French to save my life.
>: The class at least taught me to have some respect for other people.
>: 
>: That's the argument that my teacher gave me when I told her to go blow
>: a sheep instead of teaching French to people like me who don't want to learn it.
>
> Well, aren't foreign languages required now?  I took two years of

I don't know.  Perhaps, but I jumped up and down at orientation when
they said I didn't have to take a foreign language.

>Spanish in high school, a language which can get practice in North Carolina.
>I remember only two words...

Watch Channel Ocho (aka Ch. 56) and laugh your ass off.

> I got here took a few years of Japanese outta boredom...  I stopped at
>302 cause I didn't have the MASSIVE amount of time outside of class to
>keep up.  I wouldn't really say I have a working command of the language.
>Maybe if I were to spend six months in Japan now....

Go for it and send us back some anime.

>: >On the other hand...CHASS majors need take only two math courses - both 
>: >of which can be material that should have been mastered in the tenth 
>: >grade. Then they need to take three science courses (two of them lab 
>: 
>: Heck, probably stuff that Dr. Kolena would call third grade calculus.
>
>Heck, 141 is covered in many high schools...

Just about everyone I know from science and math placed out of 141 and
241, some skipped 242 as well, but I didn't have time to take cal III
my senior year.
 
>: >oriented) which gives absolutely no working knowledge of science as an 
>: >epistemological paradigm; the kids are learning nothing more than the 
>: >ability to memorize and regurgitate for a single semester. 
>: 
>: Regurgitation...  Important if you're a bird parent type thing.
>
> Highly useful for moving up the corporate ladder.  And people think
>Yes-man is easy....  It takes years of college...

Being a Yes-man is very difficult if you have a brain.  It's much easier
if you get a sore throat and then its harder for you to tell the people
around you that they're just plain wrong.
 
>: >The bottom line is that we are churning out droves of (either) glorified 
>: >technicians or non-empirical humanists. There is currently no common 
>: 
>: Is this a good or bad thing or a we don't really care thing?
>
>Its a bad thing.  The sheer lack of knowledge outside of engineering
>that many engineers have is only comparible to the lack of technical
>knowledge that the other side lacks.  Its actually scary, because
>those areas ARE useful.

It sucks, but oh well.  Engineers go to work for some marketing/management
idiot that can't understand anything technical.  The marketing/management
idiot tells the engineers to do something, but its physically
impossible yet the idiot doesn't seem to understand.

> Instead, engineers invent new languages because of the flaws in present
>ones...  But it is as much their own failure in the skills of the
>language as the language itself...
> Physics students think that because it works in theory, it will work in
>practice.  Heck, I just love the physics deal that if it doesn't fit,
>ignore it...  No wonder they think it should work in practice...

But it's so easy that way!

> Engineers with no appreciable knowledge of the real economics of a
>project.
> Economics people with no appreciable knowledge of reality.

Well they at least teach us a few optimization techniques in ECE. :)

> And Psych majors are a joke either way...  Regurgitate the teacher's
>theory to get an A.  Complain and fail.  The major that has a class
>which argues why the field should exist, and the argument they give
>is flawed...  But I wanted to pass, so I didn't complain.  I'd already
>lost several points for disagreeing with some theories in that class.

I can't remember saying a word in my psych. class.  There were about
200 people, but it was so utterly boring.

Ravi
--
Ravi K. Swamy                http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/
rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu         root@genom.com

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!rkswamy
From: rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:08:12 GMT
Organization: Gunsmith Cats
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In article <4hhl1c$pgo@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, sjcrisp@unity.ncsu.edu (Steven J. Crisp) writes:
>Bob Johnson (bobj@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Huh Oh ! there's a new sheriff in town . 
>: I will control myself in the future.
>: Andy , Steve, I know how sensitive you guys are so I apologize.
>: ;)
>
>Hey, call me a fascist. Call me a racist. Call me min-informed on an 
>issue. Those things I can defend against. But don't call me sensitive. My 
>only recourse is to take a chain-saw and wing it around on the 
>brickyard and that would not make Ralph happy.  :)

Please be sure to hit our good friend Brother Gary with the chain saw
while winging it around in the brickyard.

RAvi
--
Ravi K. Swamy                http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/
rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu         root@genom.com

From taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar  5 13:05:16 1996
Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!argus.rh.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail
From: nsdahya1@argus.rh.ncsu.edu (Nalin Dahyabhai)
Newsgroups: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Subject: Re: Lou's boys strike again...
Followup-To: ncsu.general,ncsu.eos,ncsu.unity,ncsu.humanities
Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:36:23 GMT
Organization: N.C. State University
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On 5 Mar 1996 15:05:15 GMT, Ravi Krishna Swamy (rkswamy@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:

: > Well, aren't foreign languages required now?  I took two years of
: 
: I don't know.  Perhaps, but I jumped up and down at orientation when
: they said I didn't have to take a foreign language.

Yup. People coming in after 1994 have to have two semesters, or two years of
a B or better in high school... Makes me wish I didn't waste ANOTHER two on
German...

-- 
Nalin Dahyabhai nalin@argus.rh.ncsu.edu
  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nsdahya1/www/


